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Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 03:01 PM
Hulk-A-Mania
by "Hollywood' Michael Keller


Preface
There you are: Sitting in your room late on a Tuesday night. The taste of a good beer tingles your buds (or soda, for you youngsters!). You're sifting through a pile of cards and you're thinking to yourself, "This would be so awesome if I could actually beat somebody with this in a deck!".

Things begin rolling. You start gathering ideas and putting them down to paper. Before you know it, you have a skeleton list of an individualized concept that you think will do well. You start Sharpie-ing cards to test out your new creation and you see it performs rather well. Excited, you show up at the next local tournament clamoring for every card in your deck, without divulging too much information. Before you know it, it's complete and you're off to the races testing what you believe to be the next big thing.

This is what makes Magic so much fun to play: The unique opportunity to show the international community an individualized concept of a deck idea that you believe can prove wins. In the previous "Create a New Good Deck Contest", I managed to stumble across an Urza's Destiny uncommon, entitled "Gamekeeper" After evolving a deck (which would come to be known as "The Game"), worldwide success ensued. A Variation of the combo even found its way deep into Grand Prix: Columbus 2007.

2008 is upon us, and I have forged a new individualized concept behind a deck long rumored to be considered "dead".

I bring you...Hulkamania.



Content
I. The Concept.
II. The List.
III. Explanations and Choices.
IV. What Makes Hulkamania Good Enough to Play?
V. The Results.
VI. Potential Changes.
VII. A Final Word.



I. The Concept.
It's hard to imagine conceptualizing a "new" deck without recycling common themes that have been used for years in championship-caliber predecessors. There is a gray area when it comes to originality in decks. More often than not, the only way to consider a deck completely original is to mix cards that would never be considered to fit together in the broad spectrum of things - or by simply integrating a unique combo within an array of protection and draw utility. In general, decks that tend to do typically well are ones the use the same cards time and time again with a special twist - and Hulkamania is no different.

The concept behind Hulkamania is one that is rather known. In the early to mid portion of 2007, a deck entitled Hulk-Flash dictated just about every major - and in many cases local - tournament you could participate in, including the Grand Prix. Versions of the combo have been explained a dozen times, so for those unaware of Hulk-Flash, please refer to this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5646&highlight=hulk

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/13919.jpg

The concept of Hulkamania isn't much different than that of Hulk-Flash: Find a quick, cheap way of getting Protean Hulk into play with some sort of death effect either built in or active so you can fish for creatures that win you the game. One of the main components of the old variation was a card called "Flash", which allowed you to immediately sacrifice your Hulk. This is rather inutile, due to the card's banning in Legacy play. With that in mind, I recently decided to try and build a version of this deck using different mechanisms, outlets, and win conditions which allow for consistency over speed. Albeit slower, this new take using Protean Hulk allows you to do just what any good combo/control deck should do: Creating and establishing stability by not relying on one potentially disrupt-able solution.

Summed up: Same concept, different cards.



II. The List.

Acceleration Package
[4x] Birds of Paradise
[2x] Ancient Tomb
TOTAL: 6

Combo Package
[4x] Show and Tell
[4x] Protean Hulk
[1x] Eureka
[1x] Karmic Guide
[1x] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
[1x] *Carrion Feeder
[1x] Body Snatcher
TOTAL: 13

Protection and Disrupt Package
[4x] *Cabal Therapy
[4x] Force of Will
[2x] Echoing Truth
[1x] Benevolent Bodyguard
TOTAL: 11

Search Package
[4x] Brainstorm
[2x] Intuition
[2x] Mystical Tutor
TOTAL: 8

Alternate Win Package
[4x] Tarmogoyf
TOTAL: 4

Mana Package
[4x] Tropical Island
[4x] Bayou
[3x] Polluted Delta
[3x] Windswept Heath
[2x] Island
[1x] Forest
[1x] *Phyrexian Tower
TOTAL: 18

MAIN DECK TOTAL: 60 CARDS

Adjustable Sideboard Package
[4x] Hydroblast
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Extirpate
[2x] Tranquil Domain
[2x] *Perish
[1x] Sundering Titan

SIDEBOARD TOTAL: 15 CARDS
*= Serve additionally as sacrifice outlets for Protean Hulk.



III. Explanation and Choices.
Here I will explain in detail why each card has been included in the deck and why they fit better over other potential candidates.

Birds of Paradise
For the longest time I sat down and tried determining how important acceleration was over long-term consistency. It became apparent after several engaging matches that some sort of acceleration was in order. Birds of Paradise have instantly become a staple of the deck for several key reasons:

a.) They provide turn two Show and Tell or Intuition possibility.
b.) They provide another sacrifice outlet for Cabal Therapy.
c.) They can tap for mana of any color. In some instances, hard-casting some of the combo pieces just might become relevant.
d.) They can chump a potentially devastating attack.
e.) In some cases, they might soak up Swords to Plowshares.

For these reasons, Birds of Paradise can take solace knowing they have job security.

Ancient Tomb
It was decided that two or three of these are essential in trying to cast spells faster. Originally there were three in the deck, but with the addition of Birds of Paradise, I'm not soaking up a lot of damage and getting hit by Wasteland. They also provide colorless mana only, so keeping the count at two seems like a reasonable choice that serves as a wonderful compliment to Birds of Paradise.

Show and Tell
With the banning of Flash, there is really no other faster way of placing a permanent directly from your hand into play (with the exception of Goblin Lackey). It allows me to place a Protean Hulk or other combo piece into play without having to spend a lot of mana on it. The casting cost is very reasonable and at worst it can be pitched to Force of Will. That , of course, would be an absolute last resort...

Protean Hulk
He allows you to search for your combo pieces and place them directly into play. He also beats for six in case you're wondering about Extirpate, which should be the last of your worries. I encountered a match this past weekend where an opponent Extirpated my Hulks and I still went beat-down with Tarmogoyf. I won that Game Three because of that critical element. Protean Hulk can also put three Tarmogoyf directly into play, which considering the situation, can and should be utterly devastating.

Eureka
The idea of placing relevant combo pieces from your hand directly into play is rather important in this concept, but not essential. This is a rather questionable slot, but it works so well when you do not have access to another Show and Tell (remember Intuition). I am considering replacing this slot with one Regrowth - to be able to bring something important back to my hand. This will probably change, but it serves as another outlet for dropping things into play in emergency situations in case there are no more Show and Tells.

Kiki-Jiki, Karmic Guide, Carrion Feeder, Body Snatcher
See link above for details.

Cabal Therapy
The most important card in the deck. It enables you to pick apart an opponent's hand while providing a sacrifice outlet for Protean Hulk. Works very well with Birds of Paradise.

Force of Will
An essential disrupt spell which you can support with the number of blue cards the deck provides. The good thing about Force of Will in this deck is that, if in a situation you're forced to Force away an essential blue card in hand, there are plenty of draw and tutor effects to reclaim what you lost. It's a great choice.

Echoing Truth
This card single handedly stops Empty the Warren tokens and Solitary Confinement. It's pitch-able to Force and allows you to stall out for the win. If in an instance an opponent drops something nether-worldly off Show and Tell (which is rare), you can bounce it back. Most play it sideboard, but because this deck goes for consistency over (very fast) speed, it works too well to pass up.

Benevolent Bodyguard
Allows for protection in your combo so that Swords to Plowshares becomes irrelevant (unless they have two). Essential.

Brainstorm
Works very well with fetches and combo pieces in hand. Very important here and just about any deck sporting blue.

Intuition
The ability to grab whatever you need, whenever you need it is vital in combo. Intuition is a great card that can not only grab you combo pieces, but gets those Therapies in the yard. It also gets Hulk in the yard so that Karmic Guide or Body Snatcher can do it's job. Those scenarios are rather uncommon, but are still critical. And of course, pitch-able to Force.

Mystical Tutor
Can just about fetch whatever you need in the deck at instant speed. A great utility support in the package for what it can do.

Tarmogoyf
Serves as another way of winning the game. He gets big, and fast. In many instances, you'll be tempted to Hulk into three of him. Go for it. Nothing puts the heat on faster than three of these all at once, early or late game.

Phyrexian Tower
An uncounterable way of producing fast mana and providing a sacrifice outlet for Hulk. It has won me matches alone.



IV. What Makes Hulkamania Good Enough to Play?
Well, think about it for a second: The deck plays like aggro-control, with a built in combo twist. The combo slots are hardly overwhelming, and, at worst, you will have an early 6/6 beater going in for the win itself. If you study and examine the Decks to Beat forum, you'll notice in each one of those decks there are common denominators that make each one hard to defeat. Some of these denominators include:

a.) Consistency.
b.) Card advantage.
c.) Board advantage.

Hulk-a-mania incorporates each of these ideals and puts your opponent in defensive mode. Most combo decks inherently put the opponent on the offensive to try and win, and win fast. This deck can win fast, but doesn't have to. It establishes either early threats with disruption so that you can work your way to victory. It's a solid choice that doesn't pack it in to Extirpate or Swords to Plowshares. Consider what your opponent is playing and adjust accordingly. Make sure you understand how the combo works. The deck is also a great tool for learning the stack if you're a newer player - and teaches you the importance of spell and ability progression. It can beat any of those decks in the D.T.B forum, and the results prove it can:



V. The Results.
I spent more than a few hours play-testing with Spiderfreak (Tariq W.) and Konfidant (Geoff S.) - both regular Syracuse competitors - and came up with the follow results against U/W Landstill:

In five matches, I ended up winning three out of five games. There were no instances where I was put on the the defensive side, only offensive. Force backup became huge for me. Cabal Therapy was also an annoyance for Landstill, because of it's recurrence. Wrath of God was a dead slot against me, because all 200,000,000 of my tokens were hasty. You should have a decent match against Landstill because the deck doesn't revolve around the combo. Swords wasn't really that much of an issue, but it was obviously annoying. For this reason, Benevolent Bodyguard solidified his home in the latest build.

I also spend some time testing against R/b/g Goblins. In five matches, I ended up taking all five of the times we played. There were no instances where I felt overwhelmed. One of the matches involved a do or die draw to sacrifice Hulk, and I drew into a Tower for the win. I didn't see any problems otherwise, as even general combo can destroy Goblins. A deck like this with the draws it had - there was no problems. Unless they get a god draw, I don't see this being a problematic match up.

The final test came against T.E.S. (yes, Bryant, I even tested it against your build). I played only four matches here, because I was getting tired of playing Magic all day. In the four games I played, I won two. I would have certainly won three, but a misplay on my part set me back. It was really all about whether or not I open-handed or mulled down to Force. In those games I did, I won. In the games I didn't, I lost to Burning Wish/Warrens. This is why Echoing Truths were added to the main. I won the last game I played because of Mystical Tutor-Truth. It gives you a great edge against tokens and early threats so that you can basically Time Walk yourself. It's solid.

That is all the testing I've done so far. I played in a recent tourney this past Sunday at Altered States (with the new build) and went 3-0 (I showed up late, so got a Round One "nothing".) I ended up played against 42 land, Green Stompy, and G/w/u thresh - not losing one match in Swiss. I'll continuously post results as days go by.

I am also aware my results don't count sideboard. This I understand. What I was more concerned about was getting the deck off it's feet and finding suitable main-deck slots so the deck can evolve into a competitive one. The changes I've made worked great so far - that's why the sideboard was titled "adjustable" - I'll have it ready by this weekend.



VI. Potential Changes.
There is a large "Beta Dual Land" tournament this weekend in Syracuse, New York where I reside. I have every intention on play-testing the deck every day until then to discover what needs to stay and what needs to go. I'm sure some changes will incur due to the amount of time I'll test, but the list right now is very solid and works like an oiled machine. I've done all my homework and the real test comes on Saturday. We'll see how it fares. I'm confident it will shine.



VII. A Final Word.
Look, I wouldn't post this deck and taken the time to write all of this (which I have enjoyed, none-the-less ;) unless I think it can go the distance in the format. I know it can. Most every other deck in this contest has been thought of and posted. I've competed in two tournaments with mine and it's turning heads. I have results and I plan on playing it this weekend - I have nothing to hide. So, with that being said, I am confident in my play and this deck to ride until Columbus.

And what'cha gonna do...when Hulkamania...destroyyyyys you???!!!!

Bovinious
12-31-2007, 03:17 PM
The deck seems pretty good, but why is this better than just playing Buried Alive for Kiki/Hussar/Guide, using a reanimation spell on Guide and going off that way? Intuition and Mystical Tutor would be good in a build like that, and you could play Lim Duls Vault and other fatties as reanimation targets for an alt win. Just some thoughts, but overall seems like a good concept.

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 03:26 PM
The deck seems pretty good, but why is this better than just playing Buried Alive for Kiki/Hussar/Guide, using a reanimation spell on Guide and going off that way? Intuition and Mystical Tutor would be good in a build like that, and you could play Lim Duls Vault and other fatties as reanimation targets for an alt win. Just some thoughts, but overall seems like a good concept.

Thanks for the interest. To address your points:

A deck like that would pack it in to Extirpate and more counter-magic. That's a more combo-like deck at nature, this one isn't. You CAN beat with Hulk and Tarmogoyf - which is insane here. This deck is harder for Extirpate to deal against, because who says I have to sacrifice Hulk?

Bovinious
12-31-2007, 03:38 PM
Wait how does the deck you posted not pack it in to Extirpate as well, and how are you gunna know when/if a deck has it? You would probably always go for the combo win and get beaten by Extirpate if they have it. I guess your list has Goyf so thats a solid backup, but the Buried Alive deck could run Goyf as well, or Akroma/SSS as a backup win. Doesnt really matter much since no one plays Extirpate on account of its ridiculously narrow and bad, I guess its just a personal preference on how to assemble a similar combo.

Jaynel
12-31-2007, 03:54 PM
I'd love to see some more ways to find the Hulk part of the combo. Intuition seems kinda weak - have you considered LDV or Worldly Tutor?

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 03:55 PM
Because if you're getting a 6/6 creature out turn two, that's pretty good. Again, you don't have to sacrifice Hulk. You can, and shouldn't be afraid of Extirpate. It's a bad card against this deck considering if I can sacrifice Hulk, a Therapy would have already been cast Game Two or Three naming Extirpate. Otherwise, that's game. Extirpating Cabal Therapy becomes a lude point when you're sitting there with a 6/6.

@Jaynel: LDV requires a black in the casting cost, and I don't like that here. Mystical Tutor is huge considering it's casting cost to effectiveness ratio. Intuition is huge. It gets cards in the graveyard that can be brought back by Guide or getting Therapies or Hulks or Show and Tells OR FORCE OF WILLS ;) to hand. Too good here. Worldy Tutor is meh, only because I like nabbing blue cards that let me find ways to win. Worldly Tutor was thought...but I'm not sold on it.

Tog
12-31-2007, 03:58 PM
I don't know if this is necessarily better as I've zoned out during the era of Flash but I remember reading somewhere a different kill which takes less slot than the ones you are using right now. I think it went 4 Poison Sliver and 1 Heart Sliver. It's vulnerable to Engineered Plague but you can easily swap in a Plated Sliver when you board. Plus, winning by poison counters is so cool!

~Tog

Edit: I actually looked over the list and ignore my comments about. Reading is tech.

AngryTroll
12-31-2007, 04:08 PM
In Vintage, that kill was solid because of the general lack of creatures. Three of the five Slivers need to connect, which is easier to do in that format. In Vintage, the combo could also use Flash to summon 4 Poisonous Slivers and a Winged Sliver at end of turn to fly over a ground stall. Because Show and Tell and Cabal Therapies are sorceries, the Winged Sliver Poisonous kill is not as strong in this deck.

Although it is an interesting idea, the current kill condition only takes up 4 or 5 slots, instead of the 6 the Sliver kill needs. It also wins on the same turn through any number of blockers, which combines the Heart Sliver speed with the Winged Sliver evasion. I think that enough decks can block 3 attacking creatures to make the current kill stronger. However, Slivers should probably rest in the back of anyone's mind that builds the deck as a way to dodge hate aimed at the Kiki-Jiki kill condition.

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 04:54 PM
In Vintage, that kill was solid because of the general lack of creatures. Three of the five Slivers need to connect, which is easier to do in that format. In Vintage, the combo could also use Flash to summon 4 Poisonous Slivers and a Winged Sliver at end of turn to fly over a ground stall. Because Show and Tell and Cabal Therapies are sorceries, the Winged Sliver Poisonous kill is not as strong in this deck.

Although it is an interesting idea, the current kill condition only takes up 4 or 5 slots, instead of the 6 the Sliver kill needs. It also wins on the same turn through any number of blockers, which combines the Heart Sliver speed with the Winged Sliver evasion. I think that enough decks can block 3 attacking creatures to make the current kill stronger. However, Slivers should probably rest in the back of anyone's mind that builds the deck as a way to dodge hate aimed at the Kiki-Jiki kill condition.

EDIT: Yes, the "Kiki" kill is stronger and more vital for the opening of slots.

Willoe
12-31-2007, 04:58 PM
The concept's pretty good. However, I have some questions:

Have you thought about Goryo's Vengeance, a card that I loved since it came out? Imagine turning a completely other way of the deck, a way I've tried to brew: Shield Sphere, Bayou, Culling the Weak, Cabal Therapy on yourself, Hulk in yard, Groy's Vengeance on hulk, flashback therapy naming stifle, extirpate or whatever, find needed kill cards, win. Imagine an SI skeleton with an alternate win condition? Could that be done? Your deck's nice since it can pack FoW and Therapy, but I'd like some more sac outlets. Why not adding Goryo's Vengeance to do it that way? I know it's sacced EOT, but with therapy which not's required, you can accelerate it? How does that sound?

Peter_Rotten
12-31-2007, 05:13 PM
Here's the link to Goryo's Vengence. (http://www.cardshark.com/magic/card_detail.asp?card_id=21608) It only targets Legendary critters. So it would work with, say, Akroma, but not hulk.

Jaynel
12-31-2007, 05:18 PM
I'm pretty sure he means Footsteps of the Goryo, which would work.

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 05:51 PM
I was thinking about adding another sacrifice outlet in the deck, but Therapy I can almost always find. I'm trying to decide whether or not to use another Tower (which would seem like too much, actually - colorless mana = meh). It would be solid, though. Most slots in the deck don't require double-mana cost spells, so Tower might be okay.

Solpugid
12-31-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm sorry if this was already addressed, I didn't have time to read every post:

Why is benevolent bodyguard better than sylvan safekeeper? You'll almost always have more than one land in play, invalidating multiple removal spells, and it doesn't really have a drawback (after you get off your combo, lands become irrelevant).

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 07:49 PM
Because Sylvan Safekeeper invalidates my creatures from being the target of spells and abilities until end of turn. Benevolent Bodyguard protects my creatures from a color of my choice until end of turn - namely - white. If I gave my Karmic Guide "safe-keeping", I could not target it with Kiki-Jiki. That's not good. I want a lot of creatures...

Shriekmaw
12-31-2007, 08:57 PM
One of the things that I saw with the list, is the slot of 2 echoing truths. I believe one of them should be cut for maybe another intuition in the deck. You always have the option of playing more bounce in the sideboard if needed.

Looks good Hollywood. Lets win a tourney this weekend with it.

kabal
12-31-2007, 09:26 PM
Just thought I mention this deck, Hulk Thearpy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6779&highlight=Protean+Hulk), which is a similar concept. Maybe this thread could help.

Michael Keller
12-31-2007, 11:45 PM
That version of the deck needed ways to get Hulk into the graveyard, then Reanimate, then sacrifice it. The concept is not the same. It is also more vulnerable to graveyard hate. It also forces you to win because of the Pacts. That's like "Suicide Hulk" - except it's really only suicide...

Consistency>Speed.

Nihil Credo
01-01-2008, 04:52 PM
For a paltry two mana, Living Wish can get Protean Hulk, Phyrexian Tower, and Tarmogoyf (although I don't know if that last one should be put in the SB). Summoner's Egg is also a Wishable pseudo-Show and Tell.
I think that card deserves some serious testing.

Cavius The Great
01-01-2008, 06:23 PM
I like the deck. Personally I would up the count of Ancient Tombs to 4 to ensure a second turn kill. Besides that, I think the deck looks solid.

Michael Keller
01-01-2008, 09:42 PM
After a long day of play-testing with some teammates, here's the situation:

The deck plays straight up against U/w/b Landstill, and gives it a very good fight. There were some issues regarding the graveyard, however. As it turns out, Eternal Witness is just too good to pass up, so at least a one or two will make their way into the main build. There is no way to retrieve lost combo pieces if they taken out, so this works great. You can also Hulk into two Witnesses, bringing back two cards. That's a hawt little bonus.

@Cavius: You may be right, however there is a slight problem. The deck can function like this:

Turn One: Land, Bird, Go.
Turn One: Land, Therapy, Go.

And etc., etc.

This deck's major play is the first turn and what land I drop. I'll either play the Trop/Bayou for Birds, or just a Bayou out for Cabal Therapy. With that being said, if I drop an Ancient Tomb turn two without a blue source, then I can't win because of a first turn Therapy. BUT if we play Underground Sea, we'll be able to pull it off. So it can win turn two like it did before, except now it has one more out to do so. I just noticed this in play-testing. So I'm thinking about these major changes to the original build:

-2 Echoing Truth.
-1 Eureka (Good, but redundant).
-1 Benevolent Bodyguard (just ended up being useless, even against StP - really a dead draw more often than not).
-1 Island.

+1 Mystical Tutor.
+1 Intuition.
+1 Underground Sea.
+2 Eternal Witness.

With these additions, the deck has acquired the following characteristics:

1.) It can win turn two, more so than before.
2.) I have more search and tutor capability.
3.) The Force-pitch count remains the same even with the cuts.
4.) I can retrieve lost combo pieces or recur other critical spells.

So, with that in mind, here is an updated list:

Acceleration Package
[4x] Birds of Paradise
[2x] Ancient Tomb
TOTAL: 6

Combo Package
[4x] Show and Tell
[4x] Protean Hulk
[1x] Karmic Guide
[1x] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
[1x] *Carrion Feeder
[1x] Body Snatcher
TOTAL: 12

Protection and Disrupt Package
[4x] *Cabal Therapy
[4x] Force of Will
[2x] Eternal Witness
TOTAL: 10

Search Package
[4x] Brainstorm
[3x] Intuition
[3x] Mystical Tutor
TOTAL: 10

Alternate Win Package
[4x] Tarmogoyf
TOTAL: 4

Mana Package
[4x] Tropical Island
[4x] Bayou
[3x] Polluted Delta
[3x] Windswept Heath
[1x] Underground Sea
[1x] Island
[1x] Forest
[1x] *Phyrexian Tower
TOTAL: 18

MAIN DECK TOTAL: 60 CARDS

I think the changes balance the deck out nicely: Many of the packages are smoothed to an almost even status. Eternal Witness was placed under the protection and disrupt package by default: He can serve as an alternate win condition, but more often than not a Therapy or Force might also come back more so than other cards, so he found his way there.

I also feel one Underground Sea is sufficient. You don't want to get caught with it and a Birds in hand. It's good that the fetch count stayed at six - but there is a slight possibility of cutting it down to two Heath's and upping the count to four Delta's, as blue is the common denominator in the deck.

I think these changes make it more solid.

EDIT: I've thought about Living Wish, but the deck has played so consistent up until this point against Swords to Plowshares and Extirpate I see no need to warrant it in such a tight list. I'll play-test it and see what happens...

Eldariel
01-01-2008, 10:05 PM
I suggest Sylvan Safekeeper again. It may delay your kill by a turn, true, but it still does ensure your victory on the next turn and unless your opponent has a sweeper, chances are he isn't going to be able to kill your combo pieces no matter how much removal he has since each of your lands is now an Avoid Fate. The reason I think it should be played though is that it goes perfectly with the alternative plan. Sadin won a good number of games with Dryads that were more often than not protected by his Safekeeper, which is perfectly fine to hardcast since it's in your colours anyways. So I can understand leaving that slot empty, but I suggest you at least test Sylvan; if he's ever going to have a deck to play in, this would be it. I know you refuted it on the last page, but I didn't see discussion on the help it grants to your alternative plan.

Michael Keller
01-01-2008, 10:22 PM
I was thinking about this guy, and I'm not sure if I'm sold on it. I mean, he's good for what he does, but he ultimately can't stop an Engineered Explosives or a well-timed Stifle. The most important thing to know is that there is already a sufficient amount of protection and disrupt in the deck (which can now be recurred or flash-backed) to inhibit an impending Swords to Plowshares. He is a good slot to protect such a card, but even if I combo out, they would have already Sworded the Carrion Feeder (which I would first grab with Karmic/Snatcher)...So he wouldn't have made it to play.

There are two routes to go here when you Hulk-up:

1. Karmic Guide. (5)
2. Carrion Feeder. (1)

or

1. Body Snatcher. (4)
2. Carrion Feeder. (1)
3. Sylvan Safekeeper. (1)

The first option is faster and requires less slots, whereas the second has a protective piece that can stop an impending Swords. I think you may be right on this one. I'll play it and see how it goes.

Ewokslayer
01-02-2008, 09:41 AM
The concept's pretty good. However, I have some questions:

Have you thought about Goryo's Vengeance, a card that I loved since it came out? Imagine turning a completely other way of the deck, a way I've tried to brew: Shield Sphere, Bayou, Culling the Weak, Cabal Therapy on yourself, Hulk in yard, Groy's Vengeance on hulk, flashback therapy naming stifle, extirpate or whatever, find needed kill cards, win. Imagine an SI skeleton with an alternate win condition? Could that be done? Your deck's nice since it can pack FoW and Therapy, but I'd like some more sac outlets. Why not adding Goryo's Vengeance to do it that way? I know it's sacced EOT, but with therapy which not's required, you can accelerate it? How does that sound?

This doesn't work like I think you believe it does.
The Therapy won't resolve before the hulk is in the graveyard to be Extirpated or the Graveyard ability stifled.

iOWN
01-02-2008, 02:01 PM
If you run Sylvan Safekeeper, this happens:

Tap Kiki, targetting Karmic Guide. Sacrifice him to Feeder in response without passing priority, or else Guide comes into play and you won't be able to target Kiki. Once you sacrifice it, they can respond by killing Guide, and if you try to protect it with Safekeeper, Kiki can no longer target Guide and he sits useless in the graveyard. The same thing happens if they try to kill it with burn and you give it Pro Red.

Willoe
01-02-2008, 03:04 PM
This doesn't work like I think you believe it does.
The Therapy won't resolve before the hulk is in the graveyard to be Extirpated or the Graveyard ability stifled.
Ahh, my bad. I was meaning naming extirpate or stifle for kiki loop. If the opponent stifles a kiki activation, you're GG almost every game or am I missing something?

Michael Keller
01-02-2008, 04:43 PM
Ahh, my bad. I was meaning naming extirpate or stifle for kiki loop. If the opponent stifles a kiki activation, you're GG almost every game or am I missing something?

In that instance you'd just do it again the turn after. All of your pieces would be intact.

Jaynel
01-02-2008, 05:18 PM
If you run Sylvan Safekeeper, this happens:

Tap Kiki, targetting Karmic Guide. Sacrifice him to Feeder in response without passing priority, or else Guide comes into play and you won't be able to target Kiki. Once you sacrifice it, they can respond by killing Guide, and if you try to protect it with Safekeeper, Kiki can no longer target Guide and he sits useless in the graveyard. The same thing happens if they try to kill it with burn and you give it Pro Red.

You can still save your dude, pass, and then win your next turn.

iOWN
01-02-2008, 05:19 PM
You can still save your dude, pass, and then win your next turn.

How? Kiki-Jiki is dead and Guide wasn't copied, so Kiki was never returned...

Michael Keller
01-02-2008, 05:23 PM
What we should be looking for is the safest and most solid kill combo Hulk morph into. I'm brimming through every set made to find a way.

We need to be able to retrieve Kiki when he dies, because if someone StP's him, he's going to be sacrificed to Carrion Feeder. This is obviously an emergency situation...but we'll need a way of retrieving lost pieces immediately. That would help maybe with the Witness slots.

mossivo1986
01-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Hulk,

I playtested your deck against multiple decks. Mostly disruption b/w or mbd or bgw. Obviously these arn't favorable matchups and for the most part I would get my ass kicked. What I do want to say is this though..


THIS DECK NEEDS A DRAW ENGINE.

I think mulldrifter should be in this deck. As well as dropping force. Alot of times I really didnt need it or it was just going to get me 2-2 at best by hymn. I was literally begging for a protean hulk almost every game.. If I didn't see one I lost. And thats no exageration. If I didn't see one I lost every single time. And every time I saw one I deffinately won. By a long stretch. BTW protean hulk into tarmo tarmo tarmo is pretty amazing.

Michael Keller
01-02-2008, 06:00 PM
Hulk,

I playtested your deck against multiple decks. Mostly disruption b/w or mbd or bgw. Obviously these arn't favorable matchups and for the most part I would get my ass kicked. What I do want to say is this though..


THIS DECK NEEDS A DRAW ENGINE.

I think mulldrifter should be in this deck. As well as dropping force. Alot of times I really didnt need it or it was just going to get me 2-2 at best by hymn. I was literally begging for a protean hulk almost every game.. If I didn't see one I lost. And thats no exageration. If I didn't see one I lost every single time. And every time I saw one I deffinately won. By a long stretch. BTW protean hulk into tarmo tarmo tarmo is pretty amazing.

I appreciate your interest in the deck mossivo, but I was going to just retort by saying:

Intuition is a draw engine alone. You'll always get what you need and you'll never have to worry about drawing into it because you play Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor. When I was testing I never had those problems, even against MBC or Sui. Perhaps what the deck needs is a shake-down consisting of Worldy Tutor and Mystical Tutor.

Ewokslayer
01-02-2008, 09:33 PM
In that instance you'd just do it again the turn after. All of your pieces would be intact.

Actually, wouldn't the Kiki be in the graveyard since you have to sacrifice it to the carrion feeder before its ability resolves? If you don't, the Karmic Guide won't be able to target the Kiki to return it to play.

Michael Keller
01-02-2008, 10:47 PM
Actually, wouldn't the Kiki be in the graveyard since you have to sacrifice it to the carrion feeder before its ability resolves? If you don't, the Karmic Guide won't be able to target the Kiki to return it to play.

Oh okay, my bad - I was referring to if he was Swording the Karmic Guide - yep, it won't be able to target it as it would have to be gone due to Feeder. I'm considering leaning back towards Benevolent Bodyguard. his protective ability is just too important to pass up and was one of the major components of the Hulk-Flash builds. The protective piece is just too important.

Bryant Cook
01-02-2008, 10:54 PM
Cut Witness you really don't need it at all. I saw how bad it was for you. I also like Footsteps of the goryo.

bigbear102
01-03-2008, 11:03 AM
Why wouldn't you just play Necromancy instead of Footsteps? There is always the possibility of stealing someone else's creature, or just keeping your creature around if you want to beat with it or whatever. If you want to use it as a sac outlet, just play it during your attack step or eot. It seems just strictly better than Footsteps. You can also get a blocker in a pinch.

Illissius
01-03-2008, 03:40 PM
If we're getting into Footsteps and Necromancy territory, here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32014.0)'s some brainstorming I did about the idea at TMD early last year. Hopefully it can be of some use.

Michael Keller
01-03-2008, 09:55 PM
There have been a lot of good suggestions, so here's what I came up with:

Hulk-A-Mania

[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Birds of Paradise
[4x] Show and Tell
[4x] Force of Will
[4x] Protean Hulk
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Brainstorm
[4x] Mystical Tutor
[3x] Intuition
[1x] Necromancy
[1x] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
[1x] Karmic Guide
[1x] Body Snatcher
[1x] Benevolent Bodyguard
[1x] Carrion Feeder
[4x] Tropical Island
[4x] Bayou
[3x] Polluted Delta
[2x] Ancient Tomb
[2x] Windswept Heath
[1x] Underground Sea
[1x] Island
[1x] Forest
[1x] Phyrexian Tower


Listed below are the changes I've made and the reasoning behind doing so:

+1 Mystical Tutor
I always find myself wanting to draw one of these, always. I mean, the combo is [essentially] based off Show and Tell and or Cabal Therapy, so I can always grab either. I can get just about anything I want in the deck at instant speed (including Intuition to get Hulk).

+1 Necromancy
This is a great suggestion by bigbear and kudos to Illisius for originally thinking up this card. I think one is relevant enough. As stated previously, I can always Tutor for it and it serves as another outlet to sacrifice Hulk or block in a pinch. Works well off Ancient Tomb's two colorless and even a Phyrexian Tower's two black in case of a sacrifice.

+1 Benevolent Bodyguard
Play-testing has shown this card too invaluable to be left out. He forces your opponent into having two Swords to Plowshares. He also beats out Safekeeper because, quite frankly, Safekeeper's "drawback" of making creatures untargetable seems anti-synergetic in a deck which relies heavily on you yourself targeting your own creatures. In general, protection from white is all you'll need.

-1 Windswept Heath
I don't feel this a bad idea at all. I already run four Birds paired with a five-fetch count that should be quite sufficient to play what I need. Essentially I'll only need to get up to three or four land - that including a Bird or Tomb, whichever - and I should be all set. I ran the deep-deck analysis on Workstation and in one-thousand simulated hands I found these results:

At least one land in opening draw: 18.0%
At least two land in opening draw: 27.9%
At least three land in opening draw: 31.0%

I'm pretty safe with those stats considering 18 cards in the main build cost one mana to play. What I'm more concerned about is Chalice of the Void set at one. It by no means messes me over, and I still have to sacrifice Protean Hulk to satisfy casting a flash-backed Therapy (even though it gets countered), which is also a nice bonus. I've been testing the deck enough where I'm finding myself not caring about the sideboard enough to warrant any major flaws, which is quite beneficial as it leaves me room to toy around with an almost Tutor-Transformational board.

Thoughts?

Illissius
01-04-2008, 08:03 PM
If you want to Mystical for it, you'll need Footsteps rather than Necromancy. Also, why not a singleton Summoner's Pact?

Wallace
01-04-2008, 08:26 PM
Looks Good Hollywood, can we expect to maybe see this show uo tomarrow at the winter wonderland event? If so do you expect it to do as well as your last creation, Polar Express?

Michael Keller
01-04-2008, 09:41 PM
Looks Good Hollywood, can we expect to maybe see this show uo tomarrow at the winter wonderland event? If so do you expect it to do as well as your last creation, Polar Express?

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/25/hulk_hogan_2.jpg

I'm playing it tomorrow, brother!

*You're right about Necromancy; I'm testing Summoner's Pact, we'll see how it goes."

Willoe
01-09-2008, 01:59 PM
It's surprising how good the recent decklist looks like compared to the one posted in the 1st :) What is the current list?

Michael Keller
01-09-2008, 09:02 PM
So it's been a little bit, but here's the thing I discovered with 'HulkAMania' - it doesn't work. The deck is too situational and there aren't enough business spells to win a game with. I found myself in situations where I needed to draw something relevant, and that was hardly the case. I played it at the Beta Tundra Tournament to a lower middle-class 3-3 record. It's good to stir growth but sometimes people just come up with (or build off) better ideas than what you have. I'd refer to this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8261

I'm not discouraged with the idea I came up with, but it just doesn't win unless you get a really good draw. And you can't bank on that, especially if you're playing in a major tournament with great players. You need consistency.

I can't create any more ideas for new decks right now. I've run out of ideas. I'll just play an established Tier One deck from now on and win with it.

Willoe
01-10-2008, 04:21 PM
sounds fair enough to me, but seriously, the deck is pretty good, I'm just not sure if it can beat a gauntlet or win multiple games in a row. But it was a good idea anyway, I really liked it :-) And I'm sure that I'm not just the only one.

Cavius The Great
01-11-2008, 10:58 AM
So it's been a little bit, but here's the thing I discovered with 'HulkAMania' - it doesn't work. The deck is too situational and there aren't enough business spells to win a game with. I found myself in situations where I needed to draw something relevant, and that was hardly the case. I played it at the Beta Tundra Tournament to a lower middle-class 3-3 record. It's good to stir growth but sometimes people just come up with (or build off) better ideas than what you have. I'd refer to this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8261

I'm not discouraged with the idea I came up with, but it just doesn't win unless you get a really good draw. And you can't bank on that, especially if you're playing in a major tournament with great players. You need consistency.

I can't create any more ideas for new decks right now. I've run out of ideas. I'll just play an established Tier One deck from now on and win with it.

3/3 isn't too bad Hollywood. It's not like you scrubbed out and went 1/5 or something.

Michael Keller
01-11-2008, 04:46 PM
I really like the direction iOWN took with the combo, it's strictly better. And in this instance I'm willing to concede to a superior idea. 3-3 was pretty decent.