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Whit3 Ghost
12-31-2007, 05:03 PM
The concept for this deck began while I was thumbing through the top Legacy decks at worlds, and noticed a very interesting BUW Trinket Mage/Tombstalker list. I liked its use of proactive discard over counterspells, something my team had used before in a deck known as Cajun Fish. Another thing that caught my eye was the use of Tombstalker as a 4-of. This required the use of 11 fetchlands, but it seemed to get the job done, allowing for multiple Demons in the mid-game. Now, after testing the original list, I found that I had a few problems with it’s construction. The Mage toolbox was cute, as was the small Enlightened Tutor engine, but neither feature seemed to do much other then look cool. I cut most of the chaff in the list for some more generic stuff, like 4 Exalted Angel, Ponder and the like. Now, after testing with Nihil, Wastedlife, Tacoscape and Emidln, I was finding the deck far too clunky and unable to handle things like early Tarmogoyfs and Geese and unable to out-lategame slowrolling control decks like Landstill. It appeared I was at an impasse, as my later versions seemed to regress from my progress with the original list.
Then, as all hope for my planned entry seemed lost, it struck me. EE, the only remaining piece from the original Mage/E-tutor toolbox was too slow. I quickly replaced it with Smother and upped my Vindicate count to four. All of a sudden, I was able to play control against agro strategies in the early game. I didn’t have to be afraid of my EE being answered before it became relevant or that I had to run out Angels before I could sufficiently protect them. Test games began to play out infinitely smoother.

This brings us to my current list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
4 Scrubland
1 [6E] Plains (1)
1 [PT] Island (4)
2 [TE] Swamp (4)

// Creatures

4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells

2 Duress
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [ON] Smother
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard

SB: 1 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Serenity


[B][U]Card Choices and Explanations

[U]The Manabase
10 Fetchlands- These are crucial for supporting multiple Tombstalker in the early game. Although it makes me more vulnerable to Stifle, being able to grab basics on a whim as well as fix mana is crucial to the deck’s strategy. So far, life loss stemming from them has not been an issue. The rest of the manabase isn’t really worth discussing, duals to colorfix and basics to dodge Wasteland are all pretty much standard issue.

[U]The Creature-base

4 Tombstalker- I love this card. He laughs in the face of the increasing number of casting cost based removal in the format, and is a giant roadblock for decks packing Ghastly Demise as their only source of removal. The fact that he flies is crucial, as Lynx has the possibility of creating a very stalled ground.
Exalted Angel- This could go to a 3-of depending on a few factors, but I’m happy with her staying at 2 for now. She’s a complete bomb, but I don’t like running out a 3 mana 2/2 as my only threat early on.
Meddling Mage- This card has been really good with all the discard and is a house in more matchups then one would think. He stalls your opponents best card for at least a turn or he catches removal meant for your better creatures. He comes through in the clutch in the combo matchup as well.
Spectral Lynx- This slot was something I was skeptical about, but after testing him, I’m in love. Non-Swords removal can’t touch him and he blocks Goyf/Goose/Doran all day while you set up your game plan.

Spells
Brainstorm- This slot doesn’t need much explaining, it’s arguably the best card in Legacy and is an absolute house here along with the shuffle effects.
Thoughtseize- Another card which makes this deck incredibly powerful. The ability to proactively grab creatures is great and it gives the deck six near surefire turn one discard spells is fantastic.
Duress- Thoughtseize five and six. The life loss isn’t enough for a 3-3 split, against nearly everything, you’re going to wish you had Thoughtseize every time you open with Duress.
Hymn to Tourach- The right hook to the jabs of Duress and Thoughtseize. These can also occasionally win you games by themselves via manascrewing opponents, or stripping them of removal.
Swords to Plowshares- The best removal spell ever printed next to Tarmogoyf and there’s no need to splash green here.
Smother- I wanted a removal spell in my main colors. Due to the popularity of Threshold and Tarmogoyf in general, I’m running this over Ghastly Demise, but if Goblins ever experiences a major(and Goyf-less) resurgence, Demise might be brought back in. Smother also isn’t affected by Tombstalker which is a major plus.
Vindicate- Up there with Tombstalker and Thoughtseize as the best card in the deck. The ability to kill anything for a mere three mana is too good to overlook here. Relevant in every matchup. The choice to run the fourth over the third Duress was the best choice I could have made.

The Sideboard
The board actually fluctuates quite a bit, with roughly 7-8 slots subject to change per meta. If going into a large event, 2 CoP Red may be played over the 2 one-ofs depending on how fearful I am of Burn.
Leyline- Boarded in against decks reliant on the graveyard. I believe it’s superior to Extirpate because of its invulnerability to discard and the fact that you don’t have to leave mana open to use it.
Pithing Needle- Another pretty obvious choice, this guy is there for 3-4 different matchups ranging from Control, to Loam to Survival.
Engineered Plague- Obligatory Goblins hate goes here. Also, it’s your answer to Empty the Warrens.
Serenity- This is for random matchups like Stax, Eternal Garden, Affinity and Enchantress which play a lot of artifacts and enchantments and are more then likely going to overextend into it unless forewarned.

The Subjective Slots
Duress- Some matchups require more discard.
Exalted- Some matchups require more threats and or lifegain.

Matchup Analysis
Threshold (versions tested: Ugb with Counterbalance, more to come): This is a very good matchup for you, barring they don’t resolve and protect an early Counterbalance. Your discard and Vindicates make it very hard for them to accomplish this. You also run 11 answers to an on-board goyf, three recurring Fogs in Spectral Lynx, Mage chanting Goyf, eight pro-active discard spells and beaters of comparable size in Tombstalker and Angel. As an added bonus black splash lists have no surefire way of dealing with Tombstalkers.
-65-35

Goblins(Versions tested: Rw splash for STP): This matchup varies depending on what Goblins list was used. The lower the land count, the better the matchup for you as your discard and Vindicates will be even better.
Important Notes
– Don’t be afraid to attack over a little bit of pressure
– Save your Vindicates for land or Aether Vials unless absolutely necessary
– Mage on Goblin Warchief if you’re going in completely blind early.
– If they’re low on resources and you have business in hand, don’t be afraid to trade a Mage or Lynx with one of their guys.
– Watch out for random sideboarded tech such as Price of Progress
-60/40 to 40/60 depending on build.

Landstill(Versions tested: 4c and Ubg): Each build has its nuances but here’s the basic rundown. Lists that aren’t running white are much easier as they don’t have removal that can touch a Tombstalker. 4c is a bit more difficult as they have better removal and Monastary, which can be really dangerous. However, with the four color manabase, they become more open to Vindicate. You can also pick off manlands game one with Smother and Swords if they try to go agro with an open board and of course, your discard shines here.
60/40

TES: This matchup is about who draws what and who plays first. If they go off turn one on the play, it happens, so does drawing nothing but threats and disruption on your part. You need to have disrupted them by turn 2 on the play to have a realistic chance at winning. Occasionally you can get by with nothing but Hymns and Mages on the draw, but it would involve them having a slow, contract based hand.
50/50 to 45/55

Cephalid Breakfast- This matchup again comes down to a few key factors-:how fast their hand is, and what disruption did you draw. Again, first turn plays are crucial here and Mage is a back-breaker game one and a stall tactic game 2. Usually some early discard, backed up with Vindicates and removal will give you the W, but they have the possibility of countering your first disruption spell and going off in your face. The Goyf plan isn’t at all dangerous, as they can’t protect their guys nearly as well as Threshold can, and they have no way of permanently removing a Lynx, Angel or Stalker.
60/40

Agro Loam- The key to this matchup is them resolving Magus of the Moon (if they run it). You have to keep mana open for Swords/Smother or fetch basics. You have VERY few outs to resolved Magus if you didn’t fetch basics, so watch your back. Mage either Loam or Devastating Dreams depending on the board state. Lynx, Angel and Tombstalker all shine here because they’ll either gum up the ground or put your opponent on one hell of a clock. All of your removal can hit their guys, which is a positive. Vindicate is another crucial card in this matchup as it can keep them from resolving Assault, Dreams and sometimes even Loam.
50/50 maybe 55/45 which could go in either deck’s favor.

F.A.Q.
– Why play this over the other agro-control and black based disruption lists that are currently established such as Threshold, Fish or Deadguy?
Your advantages over Threshold include pro-active disruption in the form of discard, creatures roughly on the same scale as theirs, more removal and Meddling Mage for combo matchups.
The same holds true for Fish, except that your creatures are larger. As for Deadguy, you lose most of the LD strategy but gain larger creatures and better removal. Your manabase is also stabler and more efficient.

– Why splash Blue, BW is good enough.
BW, as nice as a 2c manabase would be, has no functional replacements for either Brainstorm or Meddling Mage, both of which have been exceptional in testing.

– Why not a Green splash for Tarmogoyf?
It seems to be overkill, and it also looks like it would put far too much strain on the manabase which really wants BBWU by turn 2.
– What makes your deck original?
It’s substantially different from the Trinket Mage/Stalker deck that it was based on, and has no functional counterpart in the Legacy format. Modern incarnations of Dump Truck, which this deck bares some resemblance to, all run a counter based disruption package instead of a heavy discard setup.

Special Thanks To
–Emidln, Nihil, Tacoscape and Bryant for testing and discussing the list with me.
–rsaunder, for his work on Deadguy Ale, without which, I prolly would be a lot worse while playing this deck.
–The rest of the BZK, especially Goobafish, for pointers on the list.
–Anyone who responded to a PM about testing.
–Katsuhiro Mori for developing the list which my entry was inspired by
http://wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks&decknum=48
TheDrunkDwarf for the name

One More Thing
I haven’t worked out a name I’m completely happy with yet and I’m definitely open to suggestions.

TheDrunkDwarf
12-31-2007, 05:37 PM
I like the deck and how it got designed. I have a couple card suggestions/questions:

Have you considered Mental Note? Its a nice graveyard filler for the stalkers

What about replacing smother with shriekmaw? You already have highly versatile removal in thoughtseize, stp and vindicate. Hardcasted shriekmaw is often a nice mid/late game move.

EDIT: Deck name suggestion: Angels & Demons

Illissius
12-31-2007, 05:43 PM
Interesting deck. You only have 10 fetchlands, far as I can tell. I keep thinking there must be something better than Smother, but maybe there isn't.

What does the deck have a bad matchup against?


The fact that he flies is crucial, as Lynx has the possibility of creating a
Missed the end there...

Whit3 Ghost
12-31-2007, 05:57 PM
I like the deck and how it got designed. I have a couple card suggestions/questions:

Have you considered Mental Note? Its a nice graveyard filler for the stalkers

What about replacing smother with shriekmaw? You already have highly versatile removal in thoughtseize, stp and vindicate. Hardcasted shriekmaw is often a nice mid/late game move.

EDIT: Deck name suggestion: Angels & Demons
Note doesn't do much except fill my yard, it's not really worth it here.
Shriekmaw is something I overlooked like a total idiot and will get tested out again. I'm not sold on it because it's worse in the Goblins matchup, worse against Landstill, I can't recur it, and I usually have better things to do in the lategame. In addition to this, I usually bust out Smother early game, before I would have a chance to hardcast the Shriekmaw.

@Illissius: Certain lists of Goblins are pretty bad for you, especially the ones that have Price of Progress/Magus main or side. In my test games against goblins, I was also drawing really well, so I don't know if it was MWS or the deck itself.

Burn and Sligh are matchups I would put in the negative as well, again, PoP is a backbreaker.

43 Land is most likely poor as I have substantially less answers to Maze of Ith then Deadguy and I'm more susceptible to Wastelock.

The survival matchup also looks bad to meh.

Like Deadguy Ale, you really don't have any auto-loss matchups as you can randomly pull games out with your disruption package and fat beats.

And thank you for catching my typos.

Jak
12-31-2007, 07:36 PM
I just wanted to say that this deck looks awesome. Tones of removal and disruption plus huge beaters. I like. It is also very versatile and can be tuned to beat any meta. Nice deck!

Edit- Vindictive Stalker? Could be a name.

Mental
12-31-2007, 09:24 PM
Looks like a really fun deck. As Jak said, it looks like it can be tuned to survive in any meta. I think I'd be more afraid of the 43lands MU than you seem to be, but w/e. Magus is GG.

Will test.

Jak
01-01-2008, 01:18 AM
Have you tried EE in the Smother slot? Can take out Goyf, Geese, a horde of Slivers, and tokens.

Edit- I'm dumb. I totally forgot about what you said about EE. I was just thinking of different removal to handle hordes and things that can't be targeted and thought of EE and Deed. My bad.

Whit3 Ghost
01-01-2008, 01:34 AM
Have you tried EE in the Smother slot? Can take out Goyf, Geese, a horde of Slivers, and tokens.
I stated that in the beginning of the post, that 3 EE were originally mainboarded, but I didn't like them at all. I was getting frustrated at how it took 2 turns to kill a Goyf, which would invariably tag me for 3-5, I'd detonate it, and I'd still either be facing down Mongeese or they'd just drop another Goyf. If slivers ever became an issue, I'd board them or something, but right now, the ability to kill basically what I want, when I want, instead of giving my opponent the opprotunity to needle/stifle/vindicate/grip/ect my removal has been outstanding.

adrieng
01-01-2008, 03:16 AM
Hi .Just a question you play blue only for brainstorm and meddling mage.
Is it really worth?I mean homebrew has a really good combo matchup and meddling mage is there to help against combo no ? According to me the green spash for both goyf and pernicious deed is just better.But i might be wrong.Can you enlighnt us thanks?

emidln
01-01-2008, 08:11 AM
Hi .Just a question you play blue only for brainstorm and meddling mage.
Is it really worth?I mean homebrew has a really good combo matchup and meddling mage is there to help against combo no ? According to me the green spash for both goyf and pernicious deed is just better.But i might be wrong.Can you enlighnt us thanks?


– Why splash Blue, BW is good enough.
BW, as nice as a 2c manabase would be, has no functional replacements for either Brainstorm or Meddling Mage, both of which have been exceptional in testing.

fetchesbasiclands
01-01-2008, 11:35 AM
Would Trinket Mage toolbox not be good in here?Tormod's Crypt and the stalker shrink your opponents goyf to a size not so threatening.Sdt would be good inclusion given you run ten fetches.Also,a single EE can solve a lot of problems.Academy ruins would look fun then,but not needed,I suppose.

Whit3 Ghost
01-01-2008, 11:35 AM
Hi .Just a question you play blue only for brainstorm and meddling mage.
Is it really worth?I mean homebrew has a really good combo matchup and meddling mage is there to help against combo no ? According to me the green spash for both goyf and pernicious deed is just better.But i might be wrong.Can you enlighnt us thanks?
I'm going to answer the goyf part, as emidln and my opening post had my reasoning for the blue splash covered.

The thing about Goyf and the Green Splash is this: They help my Agro matchup, which isn't prevalent outside of Goblins. Deadguy had a good combo matchup when Solidarity was the best combo deck in the format because that deck would give you enough time for you to resolve multiple discard spells. In addition to that, your land destruction was highly relevent, as they required multiple lands to combo. Modern combo, on the other hand, usually only gives you enough time to resolve 1-2 discard spells before they kill you. This makes Mage much more crucial to the combo matchup. Also, Mage almost always hits a major spell, especially considering I have six spells that will allow me to make the right call. Not to mention Goyf's poor synergy with Tombstalker.

The Mage Toolbox is slow and adds a bunch of situational cards to your maindeck. Why would I want to Crypt a Goyf when I can Smother/Swords/Vindicate it? For the third time, EE is far too slow as your secondary piece of removal. Also, mage is overcosted, can't really attack, and can't really block.

goobafish
01-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Guess I can't submit my B/W list that this one was based off of, as the decks are far too similar :(. The functional replacement for Brainstorm was Dark Confidant without the blue, and the functional replacement for Meddling Mage would be a full set of both Duress and Thoughtsiezes. I much prefer the Smothers to my original idea of Edicts. I still believe the list is best in it's original B/W incarnation.

emidln
01-01-2008, 03:28 PM
The original reason why Cajun Fish was BUW was for Brainstorm as an unparalleled draw spell and for Stifle as a more versatile LD spell than Sinkhole. Mage was added in later. Brainstorm was used to help make sure that Dark Confidant did flip one of the four Exalted Angels in the maindeck, and if you did, you'd win shortly thereafter.

The major issue I see with running Confidant in a BW build is that you're forced to play some sort of lifegain to counteract your Thoughtseizes and the possibility of flipping Tombstalker. (Angel isn't as much of an issue as you can probably race the life loss by resolving Angel, but Stalker can leave you playing it just to block. The average CC is only about 1.6, so it may just me being paranoid with flipping something like Stalker then Vindicate and losing.)

Nihil Credo
01-01-2008, 05:45 PM
The average CC is only about 1.6, so it may just me being paranoid with flipping something like Stalker then Vindicate and losing.)
I don't think it's just you being paranoid. One of my (discarded) CaNGD designs at one point ran 3 Confidants, 4 Exalted Angel, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, six fetchlands, 3 Thoughtseizes, with a lot of good early blockers and an average CC of 1.28 (counting lands), and still the life loss was annoying to the point I'd often have to sac Confidants away to Therapy. Having lots of deck manipulation really matters, as anyone who's played Black Thresh can tell you.

Nice job on the deck, White Ghost. Tombstalker is really, really a house. I've got a couple suggestions for the sideboard:

1) I'm skeptical that the extra copies of Duress and Exalted Angel are the best use for those slots; I think you still won't SB these in more than 50% of the time. Just to throw out an idea, two copies of Moat would give you access to a huge bomb against a large number of decks.

2) Plague is a pretty crappy answer to EtW, since it only works on the draw or when they have a really terrible hand.

3) Extirpate - I think your deck is one of those that makes a better use of this card then Leyline. For one thing, it pairs off really well with your array of discard and non-StP removal. For another, I remember from our sparring that your deck used to often have mana open past turn two. Finally, what the card loses in sheer effectiveness vs. fast graveyard combo it gains by being much better against decks such as Life from the Loam and Solidarity, both of which are matchups that give you fits.

A very weird idea has just come up on me: SB Chrome Mox? It is huge against combo (enabling much better turn 1-2 disruption and solving problem #2) and it shines against fast aggro (turn 3 flipped Angel) and against many mana denial strategies, particularly Blood Moon and recurring Wastelands.


And finally, I support Angels&Demons as a deck name. Shame on TDD if he was thinking of the Brown Crap novel, though.

Mental
01-02-2008, 03:48 AM
I've tested this deck a little and I can say this:
Exalted Angel sucks. Cut it. I rarely even have the mana for it, and when I do, I'd almost always rather play Stalker. BTW, not much removal in this format hits stalker, so I'm not worried about lowering threat density.
The deck feels strong otherwise, but it is very susceptible to Land Destruction. Meddling Mage is a house, as is Lynx (I wouldn't mind running 4x Lynx).
In my build, I'm going -2 Angel, +1 Lynx, +1 Moat (I'll try nihil's suggestion) and in the SB -1 Angel, +1 Moat.

Whit3 Ghost
01-02-2008, 07:50 PM
I don't think it's just you being paranoid. One of my (discarded) CaNGD designs at one point ran 3 Confidants, 4 Exalted Angel, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, six fetchlands, 3 Thoughtseizes, with a lot of good early blockers and an average CC of 1.28 (counting lands), and still the life loss was annoying to the point I'd often have to sac Confidants away to Therapy. Having lots of deck manipulation really matters, as anyone who's played Black Thresh can tell you.

Nice job on the deck, White Ghost. Tombstalker is really, really a house. I've got a couple suggestions for the sideboard:

1) I'm skeptical that the extra copies of Duress and Exalted Angel are the best use for those slots; I think you still won't SB these in more than 50% of the time. Just to throw out an idea, two copies of Moat would give you access to a huge bomb against a large number of decks.

2) Plague is a pretty crappy answer to EtW, since it only works on the draw or when they have a really terrible hand.

3) Extirpate - I think your deck is one of those that makes a better use of this card then Leyline. For one thing, it pairs off really well with your array of discard and non-StP removal. For another, I remember from our sparring that your deck used to often have mana open past turn two. Finally, what the card loses in sheer effectiveness vs. fast graveyard combo it gains by being much better against decks such as Life from the Loam and Solidarity, both of which are matchups that give you fits.

A very weird idea has just come up on me: SB Chrome Mox? It is huge against combo (enabling much better turn 1-2 disruption and solving problem #2) and it shines against fast aggro (turn 3 flipped Angel) and against many mana denial strategies, particularly Blood Moon and recurring Wastelands.


And finally, I support Angels&Demons as a deck name. Shame on TDD if he was thinking of the Brown Crap novel, though.
Mox is an interesting suggestion, as is Moat.
1) The two slots were fuctionally placeholders, and I'm really not sure what should go there. Both your ideas will prolly get tested at some point.

2) Plague is fine for ETW hate right now, there really isn't enough of it in the format, it's functional especially if I board Mox in addition. Also, it does wonders in the Goblins matchup.

3) Extirpate is interesting, it might go in the 2-of slot as an anti-control tool, but I think it's worse then Leyline in general here. It's situational against Breakfast, and Leyline stops the actual Loaming just as much as Exi does.

Cutting Angel is a no-no. You have to be fetching wrong to be short of Angel mana, or just be playing against a deck with massive amounts of LD and Stifle. Seriously, the chick has bailed me out of so many games.