[Deck] Vial Affinity

[4eak]

Worker is hard to replace because he is a building block in the ramp of Affinity. His +1/+1 remains on the board after he dies, he's an artifact, he's colorless (which is important for a 1cc). The dude is pretty awesome in Affinity when compared to all the other 1cc creatures in the game.

Pithing Needle is the only card worthy of replacing Arcbound Worker, but that card doesn't merit play in the main. It is not a 1st turn play in the 1st game, and that is a necessary attribute of a 1cc card in Affinity.

If you really want to replace him, I think that Painter's Servant/Grindstone seems stronger than Heap Doll, Slith, etc. I suppose you could change it up and go for:

3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 E-Tutor (which I really don't like in the deck)
1-4 E-Canon

Chrome Mox/Somber Hoverguard might be a worthy aggressive replacement if you really don't want Arcbound Worker in the main:

Mana Base: 20
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales/DSCitadel
4 Glimmervoid/CoB
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard

Spells: 12
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
2 Aether Vial
2 Springleaf Drum

This is a hop, skip, and a jump to AfFOWnity, but Chrome Mox is still in the domain of aggressive aggro-combo. We don't use the card because the card disadvantage, poor top decks, and disintegration of deck consistency usually isn't worth the explosive 1st turn mana made available through Chrome Mox.

I haven't found these options to be as powerful, but as I said, I think it is very difficult to replace Arcbound Worker in the main. Resilient and bomby Vial Affinity is consistent and inevitable. Worker is part of the building blocks to that ramp, and removing him affects the consistency and resilience of the deck.

I will be testing Epochrasite in his place. Epochrasite is a decent 2cc candidate, and it doesn't deserve to played until 4x Enforcers are in the deck, but perhaps it could replace Worker.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

For reference, here's the list I built some time ago of Painter's Affinity:
// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [7E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
3 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
3 [TE] Grindstone
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [OV] Hydroblast

You can build you SB with silver bullets due to the enlightened tutor maindeck. This version was not that bad.

[mans0011]

Worker is hard to replace because he is a building block in the ramp of Affinity. His +1/+1 remains on the board after he dies, he's an artifact, he's colorless (which is important for a 1cc). The dude is pretty awesome in Affinity when compared to all the other 1cc creatures in the game.

Pithing Needle is the only card worthy of replacing Arcbound Worker, but that card doesn't merit play in the main. It is not a 1st turn play in the 1st game, and that is a necessary attribute of a 1cc card in Affinity.

If you really want to replace him, I think that Painter's Servant/Grindstone seems stronger than Heap Doll, Slith, etc. I suppose you could change it up and go for:

3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 E-Tutor (which I really don't like in the deck)
1-4 E-Canon

Chrome Mox/Somber Hoverguard might be a worthy aggressive replacement if you really don't want Arcbound Worker in the main:

Mana Base: 20
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales/DSCitadel
4 Glimmervoid/CoB
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard

Spells: 12
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
2 Aether Vial
2 Springleaf Drum

This is a hop, skip, and a jump to AfFOWnity, but Chrome Mox is still in the domain of aggressive aggro-combo. We don't use the card because the card disadvantage, poor top decks, and disintegration of deck consistency usually isn't worth the explosive 1st turn mana made available through Chrome Mox.

I haven't found these options to be as powerful, but as I said, I think it is very difficult to replace Arcbound Worker in the main. Resilient and bomby Vial Affinity is consistent and inevitable. Worker is part of the building blocks to that ramp, and removing him affects the consistency and resilience of the deck.

I will be testing Epochrasite in his place. Epochrasite is a decent 2cc candidate, and it doesn't deserve to played until 4x Enforcers are in the deck, but perhaps it could replace Worker.




peace,
4eak

I guess I just don't see why we're wanting to take cheap robots out of this deck and replacing them with other than things with legs. I can see epochrasite in the main, but I wouldn't cut arcbound worker for anything main in any version of aggro affinity. I mean, he's not a savanah lions, but like you said, he helps get the ball rolling. And you can still equip a cranial plating to him.

[4eak]

@ mans0011


I guess I just don't see why we're wanting to take cheap robots out of this deck and replacing them with other than things with legs. I can see epochrasite in the main, but I wouldn't cut arcbound worker for anything main in any version of aggro affinity. I mean, he's not a savanah lions, but like you said, he helps get the ball rolling. And you can still equip a cranial plating to him.

I hear ya.

Cards improved by Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- +2 Modular, Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and worker is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know we don't actually lose the damage on the board.
Frogmite -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Ornithopter -- Modular (common target)
Master of Etherium -- Modular, Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Springleaf Drum -- Common tap target
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- Unique in that if Worker dies with Ravager's Modular, then those get passed on a second time
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.


Worker has so much synergy with the deck. It looks small on paper, but it has massive effect overall. I'd wager, on average, Worker nets 2 damage by himself and an additional 2-3 damage in synergy. He's a powerful synergy investment for such a cheap cost.

I think he's the equivalent in power of a cantrip effect in Threshold. The card isn't amazing, but it is pretty hard to stitch the deck together properly without the card.





peace,
4eak

[mans0011]

@ mans0011



I hear ya.

Cards improved by Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- +2 Modular, Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and worker is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know we don't actually lose the damage on the board.
Frogmite -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Ornithopter -- Modular (common target)
Master of Etherium -- Modular, Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Springleaf Drum -- Common tap target
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- Unique in that if Worker dies with Ravager's Modular, then those get passed on a second time
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.


Worker has so much synergy with the deck. It looks small on paper, but it has massive effect overall. I'd wager, on average, Worker nets 2 damage by himself and an additional 2-3 damage in synergy. He's a powerful synergy investment for such a cheap cost.

I think he's the equivalent in power of a cantrip effect in Threshold. The card isn't amazing, but it is pretty hard to stitch the deck together properly without the card.





peace,
4eak

Agreed. And I promise promise promise I'll get back to our discussion about non-classical (read modal) logic and all that fun stuff when life catches up with me. I've got a lot to fill you in on, actually. ^^

[GreenOne]

Well, actually epochrasite has maybe a greater synergy with the deck:

Arcbound Ravager --Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and Epo is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know he's coming back even stronger in some turns.
Master of Etherium -- Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Affinity Factor
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Epo:

Arcbound Ravager -- You can sacrifice epochrasite and have the same amount of power on the table, but in some turns you'll have a 4/4 Deed-proof beater.
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.
Aether vial -- More targets in the 2cc slot, makes a beast instead of a vanilla 1/1

Epochrasite also offers resilency against wrath effects and is, indeed, a good chumpblocker.
I don't know, I never thought about removing worker, but Epo seems a lot better for just 1 colorless more on paper.

I tried a couple matches on mws with this list:
// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [AN] City of Brass
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
3 [FUT] Epochrasite

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

And epochrasite shined, making about 4 to 12 damages in every game I drew it. I played against MUC and The Rock.
Obviously, If you decide to play Epo, you need 4 vials.

[mans0011]

Epochrasite is good on paper, and he's 2 colorless, which is delicious. But it's still not coming out 'til turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 if we want the beast. I've always had a little niche in the back and side of my heart for epochrasite, just never been brave enough to run him.

[GreenOne]

Do someone have time to test it in place of Worker? I firmly believe it doesn't belong in the Enforcer slot, but maybe in the workers'..
Unfortunately I don't have time and tourneys in sight to make some testing, is someone willing to do it? :smile:

[4eak]

Forgot to add Thoughtcast to the Affinity factor list.

@ mans0011


Agreed. And I promise promise promise I'll get back to our discussion about non-classical (read modal) logic and all that fun stuff when life catches up with me. I've got a lot to fill you in on, actually. ^^

Sweet. =)


Epochrasite is good on paper, and he's 2 colorless, which is delicious. But it's still not coming out 'til turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 if we want the beast.

Exactly the problem. If he cost 1 mana, even with a smaller recursive effect, then I would have less of a problem. By not having Worker to play on turn 1, we have problems casting our Affinity spells on turns 2 and 3.


@ GreenOne


Well, actually epochrasite has maybe a greater synergy with the deck:

I can guarantee he doesn't have greater synergy. But, I totally agree that Epochrasite's recursion is very powerful in certain matches. Replacing Arcbound Worker with Eprochrasite is a certain decrease in synergy, but the sacrifice is for a stronger mid and late game. To me this seems like a reason to play Epochrasite in the side though.


Do someone have time to test it in place of Worker? I firmly believe it doesn't belong in the Enforcer slot, but maybe in the workers'..
Unfortunately I don't have time and tourneys in sight to make some testing, is someone willing to do it?

I've tested him before, but I replaced Enforcer instead of Worker (it seemed the natural slot to test). It needs to be tested in Worker's slot though.

I'll be testing your list and perhaps I'll try +1 Epochrasite -1 Drum as well.


peace,
4eak

[MartinV]

I have been starting to play some legacy with my affinity deck and i really like it. I have been to two tournaments until now and ended with a bit of luck t8 in one of them, but u would like some comments on my deck. My deck until now is:

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

The last 2 slots where until now just some fillers, nothing important. The Ancient Den slots are depend on what i run in the sideboard. What i am planning to replace the Hoverguards with Master of Etherium. The Hoverguard was nice until now, because of the flying, but i want to replace it with a cheaper artifact (to much dependend on blue with master and its not an artifact). The flyers i found until now are Arcbound Stinger and Roterothopter. Does someone here have experience with any one of those, or have other options for the last to slots?

Thanks in advance :)

[mans0011]

I have been starting to play some legacy with my affinity deck and i really like it. I have been to two tournaments until now and ended with a bit of luck t8 in one of them, but u would like some comments on my deck. My deck until now is:

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

The last 2 slots where until now just some fillers, nothing important. The Ancient Den slots are depend on what i run in the sideboard. What i am planning to replace the Hoverguards with Master of Etherium. The Hoverguard was nice until now, because of the flying, but i want to replace it with a cheaper artifact (to much dependend on blue with master and its not an artifact). The flyers i found until now are Arcbound Stinger and Roterothopter. Does someone here have experience with any one of those, or have other options for the last to slots?

Thanks in advance :)

Apparantly Aether Vial is a controversial inclusion, still! I don't see how this deck can afford the loss of all the tricks and help that vial affords. 4eak's been over this many many times. I'm sure he can tell you which post numbers to read on aether vial.

[MartinV]

Not smart of me to forget to mention AEther Vial :P. I have tested vial, but until now i am not convinced. But i wouldn't mind reading the main posts / pages about vial in this thread if someone can tell me the page/post numbers :)

[kicks_422]

Uh, try all the pages. I think it comes up every 2-3 pages or so.

I've been mulling over Epochrasite as well. I'll try it out over Workers. The one major thing I don't like about cutting Workers is that they are 4 less Lackey blockers on the play, with the prevalence of Goblins where I play.

[mans0011]

Uh, try all the pages. I think it comes up every 2-3 pages or so.

I've been mulling over Epochrasite as well. I'll try it out over Workers. The one major thing I don't like about cutting Workers is that they are 4 less Lackey blockers on the play, with the prevalence of Goblins where I play.

If goblins is all over your meta then I would not recommend cutting it, at all. We have very few turn 1 plays with legs. No one wants to throw Disciple in front of a lackey, but I'll be damned if I won't....

[GreenOne]

I've been mulling over Epochrasite as well. I'll try it out over Workers. The one major thing I don't like about cutting Workers is that they are 4 less Lackey blockers on the play, with the prevalence of Goblins where I play.

Between Fanatics, Incinerators, Weirdings and Hooligans, I can't believe a 1/1 is enough to stop Lackey from connecting. Is it?

[4eak]

Between Fanatics, Incinerators, Weirdings and Hooligans, I can't believe a 1/1 is enough to stop Lackey from connecting. Is it?

Every little bit counts.

Still testing, btw.


peace,
4eak

[4eak]

I'm back from testing Epochrasite, and the card is out.

Replacing Arcbound Worker with a 2cc card hindered our ramp too much. 60-70% of the time I'm hardcasting Epochrasite. He wasn't a much better topdeck than Worker. It is was uncommon to make use of his recursion, and his recursion took forever (3 time counters is a lot for this deck).

There were a few games where Epochrasite was a pimp. While he actually isn't very good against aggro, he was a nice recovery tool against control. However, I rarely get to the late game, and that is the only place he shined over Arcbound Worker. We have to keep in mind this is an aggro-combo deck, and while we can adjust the deck for resilience, we shouldn't do so if it costs us too much tempo.

I often found myself staring at Epochrasite in the first turn wishing it were Arcbound Worker or any 1cc artifact creature. By not being able to drop Epochrasite on first turn (or 2nd sometimes), I was a turn late dropping Frogmite, Enforcer and Thoughtcast. As expected, Springleaf Drum was considerably worse on 2nd and 3rd turns which sometimes pushed colored spells, Cranial Plating, and MoE back at least a turn as well.

Epochrasite was a decent card against control decks. Eating a Disk or Wrath wasn't nearly as scary with Epochrasite in play, but the loss in synergy from playing Epochrasite instead of Worker often slowed the down the deck to make me vulnerable in the first place.

I think we have better options against control decks.

Aether Vial
Pithing Needle
K-Grip
Winter Orb




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

As I said, I had not much time for serious testing, so I had some matches on MWS. Everytime I drew a Epochrasite I was asking myself if Worker would be better and the most of them Epochrasite was better.
As a topdeck, Epochrasite was clearly better, especially with a vial or ravager in play (with 8 creature in the 2cc slot you usually want to keep vial@2). Versus control and aggrocontrol Epo was better. With a cranial plating in play Epo was better, cause the only chances the opponent has to win when you have a cranial in play are to destroy your Plating or to kill all your critters (Epo helps against this one).
The only times where I actually wanted a Worker instead of Epo was when I had a fast 1-land hand that wanted to drop an enforcer on turn 2 and couldn't, and a time where having a ravager modular on the worker, and the worker modular on Orni later was probably gg.
To come up with the higher cc of the deck I put 1 land more in the deck. In my testing I was playing the usual list but with 4 vial, 3 drum, 3 enforcer, 3 epo, 1 Nexus.

Those are the matchups I played against:
Burn x3
UGb Thresh
Landstill 4c
Thruffle Shuffle
The Rock
MUC
WG Natural Order
Goblins x2
Draeadstill
AggroLoam
ITF (or something really similar)

[4eak]

@ GreenOne

Perhaps the 1 land was the difference.

Epochrasite usually cost me an entire turn whenever I opened a hand with him instead of Worker. I don't understand how did you didn't experience this problem.

Perhaps my gauntlet or partners weren't as good as yours. It may have been a mistake to let my opponents choose whatever deck they wanted to play (and vice versa when we switched up). We played a few games against each of these (no sideboarding):

Landstill
Quinn
UGw Thresh
WW (not Legacy legal--but it was a good deck--played Skullclamp etc.)
Pox
MUC
Goblins
ANT

Our matches were "swingy". That is to say, the fundamental turns were early. The turn that decided who won came so early that the benefits from Epoch weren't usually given a chance to play out. As I said, getting him to be a 4/4 wasn't common, and the 3 time counters simply took too long. How often did you get to abuse these two assets?

The control matchups were stronger, but not by much. He was good against against Quinn and Landstill, and it was lovely to see it come back after Wrath. The lost turns against MUC, however, weren't worth it because you either slide your bombs into play before Disk/Shackles comes down or you lose. Pox was the only control deck in which Epochrasite was an outright pimp (but that might be because some Pox decks run the card themselves).

Threshold, Goblins, WW, and ANT were matches I preferred Worker. The ramp was too necessary in these cases.

Our testing played games (as best we could) both ways. We played the circumstances with Worker and with Epochrasite. Sometimes it is difficult to see the effects of a card until turns later, and this is why we played like this.

Our opening hands almost always preferred Worker. Topdecks weren't substantially stronger because by the time we drew him and tried to abuse him the fundamental turn of the game was upon us. We found mana curve problems, not just with casting Affinity spells, but also because the cost of Epochrasite was actually in conflict with casting other cards that were simply stronger (Ravager/Plating/MoE).

I didn't consider the small gains against some of our control matches to be worth the synergy sacrifices that slowed our tempo down against other decks. However, where Vial Affinity deserved to played Epochrasite wasn't a bad substitution for Arcbound Worker at all. The difference between having a 1st turn artifact and a 2nd turn is a big one, and I'll be sticking with Worker for now.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

Epochrasite usually cost me an entire turn whenever I opened a hand with him instead of Worker. I don't understand how did you didn't experience this problem.

I experienced that, but it was not that great as a difference: in retrospect, my list plays 1 more drum and 1 more land, as well as 1 less Enforcer. Obviously 2cc cards are better with more lands and more acceleration pieces. Also, there's less loss of Affinity sinergy cause there's 1 less affinity piece (and the more costy one).



Perhaps my gauntlet or partners weren't as good as yours.

Well, I'm quite sure that your testing partners were better than the random MWS player, but maybe the gauntlet was not optimal.



How often did you get to abuse these two assets?

Those are the matches were Epo showed:
Burn: I won 2 games on the power of Epo+Plating. The opponent nedded to shot my critters and just went out of business. With both almost in topdeck mode a 4/4 haste+plating won the game.
UGb: in one game he had to play EE for 2 to destroy my stuff and his Goyf. Epo came back and dealt 8 more damage, winning the game.
Landstill 4c: Epo eated a EE, but lived to tell.
Truffle Shuffle: I wanted Epo in this match, drew it one game but got STP. Meh.
The Rock: Epo eated a deed, but lived to tell.
MUC: Epo eated a Keg, but lived to tell.
WG Natural Order: In one game 2x Epo helped a lot in chumpblocking Goyf while dealing 2 in the air. Finally an all out attack with 2 Epos, an enforcer and a Ravager won the game.
Goblins: It sucked.
Dreadstill: It sucked due to stifle.
Aggroloam: So so. At some time I believe it screwed the opponent's math on DD, but I'm not sure.
ITF: Did not draw it in both matches.



We found mana curve problems, not just with casting Affinity spells, but also because the cost of Epochrasite was actually in conflict with casting other cards that were simply stronger (Ravager/Plating/MoE).

Yeah, this happened to me too. This is probably the best argument against it.

Is a 2/2 split conceivable? We already have a good amount of 1cc drops (I always want to play Vial and ofter drum before worker) so maybe it's a good call to have just something like 8 turn 1 drops. It's always a mess to build a curve, due to affinity cards.

[Zappa]

I've recently picked up this deck, and I still have some plays I am questioning.
What is the correct turn 2 play when you have a choice between plating and ravager? Does it also matter which one you play?

Another 1 I am curious about is, has anyone tried out Winding Canyons as a 2of if running 18 land count? It seems to play some cute combat tricks especially if you have either frogmite, enforcer or disciple at hand.

Against decks like landsstill where you know (from alculating in your head) that you can deal a near lethal damage (say 15-17 damage), but not enough to kill them. Do you over extend and go with that much damage knowing that its not enough to kill them, and will play wrath of god once they get their turn. Or do you hold back some of your cards to try and recover slowly but only dealing minimal amount of damage?

Thanks for the advise.

[4eak]

@ Zappa


What is the correct turn 2 play when you have a choice between plating and ravager? Does it also matter which one you play?

It definitely matters which one you play. I can't tell you which is better without more information. Could you provide us with more information? I want to know what you have in play and what is in your hand (and it doesn't hurt to tell us your opponent's deck [what they've dropped at least]).


Another 1 I am curious about is, has anyone tried out Winding Canyons as a 2of if running 18 land count? It seems to play some cute combat tricks especially if you have either frogmite, enforcer or disciple at hand.

I love that card. It sucks in Affinity though. You shouldn't have mana open to use its ability, and it hinders you from consistently (how did that One of Green put it:) "regurgitating your hand" into play. Play artifact lands or mana smoothing, all other lands are dead to Affinity post-Shards (even Nexus imho).


Against decks like landsstill where you know (from alculating in your head) that you can deal a near lethal damage (say 15-17 damage), but not enough to kill them. Do you over extend and go with that much damage knowing that its not enough to kill them, and will play wrath of god once they get their turn. Or do you hold back some of your cards to try and recover slowly but only dealing minimal amount of damage?

I generally play very aggressively against control decks. Now, that doesn't mean I constantly sac out to Ravager/Disciple just to bring them to 3 life (suicide), but I push the pace. Holding back is almost always the wrong answer in a synergy aggro deck. I'm not going to explain why this is the case unless you need me to explain it. Rush them, but do it intelligently.

Baiting counters, combat tricks, punishing board control, slow-rolling, etc. are all techniques you just have to practice. Against control decks, overextending is more subtle than just playing everything in your hand just to see them Wrathed away. Overextending could be saccing too aggressively to ravager or putting Cranial Plating on the largest threat on the table instead of a smaller one (putting all your eggs in one basket, etc.) to distribute the risk of pin-point removal.

If you want more specific answers, you'll need to give specific circumstances.



peace,
4eak

[Ssbm Rocks1]

Is Shrapnel Blast any good anymore?
It seems helpful, but I can't find it in any builds on Deck Check.

[kicks_422]

With Ravager and now Master, Fling seems to be more popular than Shrapnel Blast. However, I don't think it's really needed. When i ran it, I never found the time to cast it. Once I had the chance, I was already well on my way to winning or losing.

[GreenOne]

I've recently picked up this deck, and I still have some plays I am questioning.
What is the correct turn 2 play when you have a choice between plating and ravager? Does it also matter which one you play?


You have to consider those factors:
- You have a third land, so you can play cranial+equip next turn.
- You have a third mana at your disposal now (drum) and a 2nd creature to equip, so you can play cranial, equip and attack this turn
- You have few artifacts in play and your opponent is playing burn
- You have double cranial in hand and want the opponent to counter one (double cranial is almost useless against control)
- etc.

Generally, if I have a third land in hand and your opponent is not playing red and you don't already have 2 critters+drum in play then Ravager is the choice I make.

[GreenOne]

Is Shrapnel Blast any good anymore?
It seems helpful, but I can't find it in any builds on Deck Check.

Shrapnel and fling are quite good cards, but the mana base can support only one between Red and Green. Green offers Krosan grip where the cards that red can offer are meant to be played maindeck. I would not play Shrapnel in the side (but 4eak would probably), and there's no really room in the maindeck.

[4eak]

@ Ssbm Rocks1

Shrapnel isn't the problem; red is the problem.


Red is not as powerful now that Master of Etherium changes how we build the deck and given our need to answer powerful control cards with disenchant effects. Maximizing artifact counts and having access to K-Grip are the reasons I don't play red anymore. Others will always play white because it not only gives us DE effects, but it also allows us to play E-Canon for the combo match.

Red (or any 4th color) probably means we can't afford to play Darksteel Citadel. This is a metagame call. If you don't see a ton of wasteland/p-Deed, then it is quite possible to go red. I know there are several matches where I would love to board in Shrapnel. Unfortunately, I'm not able to remove DSCitadel at this time.

There are metagames where not playing Green or not playing Darksteel Citadel could be acceptable or worth the risk to gain access to Shrapnel Blast. For the majority of people, I don't recommend playing Shrapnel Blast anymore.


@ kicks_422

While Fling is popular, if one were to play red, Shrapnel is a much better card overall.



peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

A few scenarios for me, regarding the plating vs ravager play on turn 2 is this...

1) Case 1 (turn 2)
In play: 2 artifact land, Ornithoper, Roterothopter, Frogmite.
Choice to play: plating vs ravager (no 3rd Land)
Opposition: Landstill

If it was against burn, will the play change?

2) Case 2 (turn 2)
In play: 2 artifact land, Disciple, ornithoper.
Choice to play: plating vs ravager (no 3rd land in hand, frogmite also in hand)
Opposition: Landstill.

Also again if it was burn, will it be different?

Pretty much concerned regarding Landstill match up though. As it is the deck I usually have problem also with Ichorid-combo (bangs head against the wall when faced with factory + crucible + tormod). But yes with affinity, granted I've just picked it up, I've had games where I wasn't sure if I did the correct play by going for a lethal damage bringing him down to 3 life, but fails to kill and sees them get wrathed / deeded.

Thank you for advise.

[GreenOne]

1) Case 1 (turn 2)
In play: 2 artifact land, Ornithoper, Roterothopter, Frogmite.
Choice to play: plating vs ravager (no 3rd Land)
Opposition: Landstill

If it was against burn, will the play change?


VS 3c Landstill: I'd play the Cranial. This way you put on the board enough pressure. The opponent needs some wrath effect and you still got a crature (ravager) in hand and a plating in play if he does.

Vs 4c Landstill: I'd play the Ravager. The problem we're facing here is deed. If the opponent plays deed and sacs it for zero in his turn we're left with no lands, a Frogmite and an un-pumpable Roterothopter. Playing ravager changes the math and the opponent will have to deed in his next turn and for 4, cause ravager will modular on frogmite otherwise.

Vs Burn: I'd play the cranial first. You need to race in this game. Ravager becomes more and more effective as time passes by in this matchup, cause the opponent have to kill it with burn. Also, hope to draw an artifact land next turn, play ravager, then equip the cranial. So if the opponent wants to burn out the equipped creature it can get eaten by ravager or get some modular counters to survive and attack for a lot (depending on how much lands/lands open the burn player has).

2) Case 2 (turn 2)
In play: 2 artifact land, Disciple, ornithoper.
Choice to play: plating vs ravager (no 3rd land in hand, frogmite also in hand)
Opposition: Landstill.

Also again if it was burn, will it be different?
[/QUOTE]

Vs 3c Landstill: Same as above, but the opponent is going to take some minor damage from wrath.
Vs 4c Landstill: Same as above, but the opponent is going to take some serious damage from his own deed.
Vs Burn: Same as above, but you got less protection against a Flamebrake and 1 less creature to modular on. I'd equip the Disciple first.

[indelicate]

A quick question--has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend in Legacy Affinity? (1B, flying, 0/1, gets +2/+2 till end of turn whenever an artifact comes into play under your control.) I played four of them today on a whim--versus elves, Slivers, Stasis, and burn, as well as a few rogue decks--and was really happy with the result. Granted, it's a higher cc than Ornithopter and performs much the same function, but it's less afraid of blockers and nearly deals lethal on turn 3.

[DalkonCledwin]

A quick question--has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend in Legacy Affinity? (1B, flying, 0/1, gets +2/+2 till end of turn whenever an artifact comes into play under your control.) I played four of them today on a whim--versus elves, Slivers, Stasis, and burn, as well as a few rogue decks--and was really happy with the result. Granted, it's a higher cc than Ornithopter and performs much the same function, but it's less afraid of blockers and nearly deals lethal on turn 3.

actually it performs more or less the same function as Atog... but I think I would rather keep my critters in play than have to sacrifice them... then again, sacrificing them so that I get Disciple of the Vault Damage is a good thing as well.... so really its a toss up... it depends really on the type of Vial Affinity you happen to be playing in any given situation.

[kicks_422]

What did you cut for Glaze Fiends? The deck is as tight as it has ever been. Only change I made was up both Drum and Vial count to 4, going down to 16 lands.

[indelicate]

The list I played today:

Land:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace

Creatures:
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Ornithopter
4x Glaze Fiend
4x Disciple of the Vault
3x Frogmite
3x Myr Enforcer

Spells:
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Thoughtcast
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
2x Chromatic Star

[mans0011]

The list I played today:

Land:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace

Creatures:
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Ornithopter
4x Glaze Fiend
4x Disciple of the Vault
3x Frogmite
3x Myr Enforcer

Spells:
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Thoughtcast
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
2x Chromatic Star

How did this list do for you and what were you matched against? I'm surprised at no Master of Etherium or aether vial anywhere....

[indelicate]

I played this list against Stasis, burn, elves, Slivers, and a rogue red/white deck, and ended up taking first (only out of eight, but still). I'd thought it was going to be a casual play afternoon, so had proxied up some Masters, but when enough people showed for sanctioning, had to quickly swap in four of something that I actually owned. Glaze Fiend just seemed to offer the most synergy.

I've always found Vial to be underwhelming in Affinity. It often slows you down a turn, and is a magnet for cards like Pithing Needle (abundant in my meta). For accel, I usually just run the four Drums and call it good.

[mans0011]

I played this list against Stasis, burn, elves, Slivers, and a rogue red/white deck, and ended up taking first (only out of eight, but still). I'd thought it was going to be a casual play afternoon, so had proxied up some Masters, but when enough people showed for sanctioning, had to quickly swap in four of something that I actually owned. Glaze Fiend just seemed to offer the most synergy.

I've always found Vial to be underwhelming in Affinity. It often slows you down a turn, and is a magnet for cards like Pithing Needle (abundant in my meta). For accel, I usually just run the four Drums and call it good.

You don't think people will be needling your Ravagers or platings? Hell, I'd much rather they needle my aether vial instead of either of those.

[indelicate]

Ravager's modular is still effective even after it's been Needled, and you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that equipping is an activated ability. Vial, once it's been shut down, is absolutely useless. The chances that your opponent has more than one early-game Pithing Needle are slim to none, and I know that I'd shut down Vial before I'd shut down Ravager.

[4eak]

@ indelicate


Ravager's modular is still effective even after it's been Needled

In practice, modular may or may not be very effective in this case. If someone drops an early needle, then Affinity can't sac to Ravager, and so you often won't usually have much more than 2cc Arcbound Worker.

Needling the sac outlet of Ravager not only owns the card, but also dismantles Disciple. Needle hits 8 cards in this case.


and you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that equipping is an activated ability.

Are you building a deck to beat bad players or good ones?



Vial, once it's been shut down, is absolutely useless. The chances that your opponent has more than one early-game Pithing Needle are slim to none, and I know that I'd shut down Vial before I'd shut down Ravager.

Your argument is that Aether Vial is singularly powerful enough that it usually deserves to be needled before both Ravager and Cranial Plating. Isn't this justification to run Aether Vial? In your case, if Aether Vial goes un-needled, then you get the benefit of something equal to or greater than Ravager/Plating. If it eats a needle, then you just saved your Ravager/Plating, right?

Your argument against Aether Vial is the equivalent of removing a card from a deck because it would meet an opponent's Force of Will. The truth is that adding more "must counters" to the deck simply makes you more resilient to hate, like needle, used against you.

Additionally, just because needle can hit something doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. Artifacts in play are never "useless" in Affinity, even if they are needled to lose some functionality.




peace,
4eak

[indelicate]

I'll repeat it for posterity--I am not impressed by Vial. It slows the deck down, is a big ol' target for Needle and stifle abilities, and could just as easily be a Worker or Disciple.

As for "building a deck to beat bad players", in my experience you need to be just as prepared for bad decks as you are for good ones. Same goes for good and bad players. I've seen good players lose because a bad player did something completely unexpected.

*cough*

Returning to my original point, has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend?

[kicks_422]

I'll repeat it for posterity--I am not impressed by Vial. It slows the deck down, is a big ol' target for Needle and stifle abilities, and could just as easily be a Worker or Disciple.

1. How exactly does it slow the deck down? It's an artifact. Also, you can never dismiss making your Ravagers/Masters uncounterable. That's probably the best use of the card in practice.
2. As others have said over and over again, which you seem to be ignoring, a Needle on Vial is a Needle NOT on Ravager and Plating. Maybe we shouldn't run Master of Etherium as well, since that's a big ol' target for Swords to Plowshares.
3. Vial can never be a Worker or a Disciple. Those cards are used WITH Vial in the deck. Also, Vial is used WITH Springleaf Drum as well.


Returning to my original point, has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend?

It looks nice on paper, but how big does it really get from your experience?

[4eak]

I'll repeat it for posterity--I am not impressed by Vial. It slows the deck down, is a big ol' target for Needle and stifle abilities, and could just as easily be a Worker or Disciple.

All I am saying is that your argument about needle is a pointless one (hehe, I love puns). If you don't like Vial, then I suggest trying to use better arguments than "it gets hit by needle." So far, you've just been dodging the debate. If you make a claim, then please defend it.


Returning to my original point, has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend?

Yes. The deck has no room for it just as it doesn't have room for Atog.

Play MoE and Vial instead.



peace,
4eak

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Play MoE.Good advice. Regardless of what color or 'type' of affinity you are playing, run MoE. It's one of the strongest creatures this deck can run.

[indelicate]

Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns, and I've repeated several times that I (and some others) don't find Vial as stellar as it might be. The curve just isn't right.

@kicks--Fiend consistently dealt 8-10 damage on turn 3, and continued to beat face with Plating. Also, Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable.

[mans0011]

Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns, and I've repeated several times that I (and some others) don't find Vial as stellar as it might be. The curve just isn't right.

@kicks--Fiend consistently dealt 8-10 damage on turn 3, and continued to beat face with Plating. Also, Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable.

How do you reckon vial does not make creatures uncounterable? Is pernicious deed or board wipe in general just not played in your metagame? You cannot underestimate vialing in a disciple in response to deed. GG

[Xero_2285]

What do you mean Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable? Your not playing them your putting them into play with Vial. They can Stifle Vial but cannot counter a creature that's been put into play with it.

Edit: You beat me to it mans0011.

Also not running MoE due to budget reasons is really not an acceptable reason. They cost like $4 a piece if that, Ravager's cost more than that.

[mans0011]

What do you mean Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable? Your not playing them your putting them into play with Vial. They can Stifle Vial but cannot counter a creature that's been put into play with it.

Yeah... I would so much rather they stifle aether vial than a massive modular movement. That would suck out loud.

Edit: Sorry, I know this is going to be a bad argument, so I'm acknowledging that and saying that it's just something to point out-- there IS a reason that aether vial is banned in extended. It's awesome. And not just in ravager. It's an awesome card.

[4eak]

@ indelicate


Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns

When I tell you to play MoE instead of Glaze Fiend it is because you ask questions like this:


A quick question--has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend in Legacy Affinity?

There is no good way to understand the overall value of Glaze Fiend without comparing it to cards that could (and should) replace it like MoE.

If you run Glaze Fiend because you don't have the budget to play better cards, then be sure to write about your problem in context. Given your cardpool, perhaps Glaze Fiends might be worth choosing. Given the Legacy cardpool, Glaze Fiend sucks.

Don't ask questions about "Legacy Affinity" in general unless you are willing to assume that cards like MoE must be taken into consideration. Broad questions and claims of viability you've made in the past 3 pages are not ones that are allowed to silently assume a budget.

You continually post like your cardpool limitations don't have a serious impact on your perceptions of how best to create Legacy Vial Affinity. You might not have the budget or experience with the deck to realize it, but MoE and Vial do belong in Legacy Vial Affinity.




peace,
4eak

[kicks_422]

Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns, and I've repeated several times that I (and some others) don't find Vial as stellar as it might be. The curve just isn't right.

@kicks--Fiend consistently dealt 8-10 damage on turn 3, and continued to beat face with Plating. Also, Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable.


If you had a set of Master, would you play with them? If yes, what would you cut from the deck? If no, why not? I think we're all trying to make the best Affinity build here. Budget constraints shouldn't be in the way of that. Are 4 Vials out of your budget too so you haven't tested it?

I could see how Fiend could get as large as that for a one time swing, but it would just be a 2/3 flyer the rest of the time. I think the beef of Master and the pump ability is better than that.

[Xero_2285]

I've repeated several times that I (and some others) don't find Vial as stellar as it might be. The curve just isn't right.


Vial and MoE belong in this deck. This has happened to me many games.

Turn 1: Art. Land, Vial, Thopter
Turn 2: Art. Land, tap Vial drop DotV for free, probably tap 2 and drop Plating
Turn 3: Art. Land, tap Vial drop Ravager for free, or now tap 2 and drop Plating, equip to Thopter, swing for 7
Turn 4: Drop Art. Land or you might miss this land drop, tap Vial drop MoE for free, that makes Thopter a 9-10/1, swing to put them at 3-4 life, sac 3-4 artifacts and it's gg, or wait 1 more turn to finish the job.

This deck curves between like 2 and 3 and Vial falls under the curve so how is the curve not right for Vial when it's cc is 1?

[jseed]

Vial and MoE belong in this deck. This has happened to me many games.

Turn 1: Art. Land, Vial, Thopter
Turn 2: Art. Land, tap Vial drop DotV for free, probably tap 2 and drop Plating
Turn 3: Art. Land, tap Vial drop Ravager for free, or now tap 2 and drop Plating, equip to Thopter, swing for 7
Turn 4: Drop Art. Land or you might miss this land drop, tap Vial drop MoE for free, that makes Thopter a 9-10/1, swing to put them at 3-4 life, sac 3-4 artifacts and it's gg, or wait 1 more turn to finish the job.

This deck curves between like 2 and 3 and Vial falls under the curve so how is the curve not right for Vial when it's cc is 1?

I think that this is a poor example of why vial is so good. Your goldfish situation with drum and the same hand could easily be:
T1: Artifact Land, Drum, Thopter, DotV
T2: Artifact Land, Plating, Equip Thopter, Thopter swings for 5
T3: Artifact Land, Ravager, Thopter swings for 7 + DotV for 1 if there are no blocks. If either DotV can get through or your opponent has cracked a fetch you win.

So it's pretty obvious that in terms of speed drum is better. I think a better example of vial superiority would be a real game against some kind of blue deck. In that game the deck with drum has one less must counter threat while the deck with vial has one more. So if they had hands that were exactly the same but swapping vials with drums the drum deck would lose assuming the control deck could deal with their X threats (X being however many threats they draw). The Vial deck would have X+1 threats and in addition if vial does not eat a FoW T1 then all the counterspells in the control deck's hand would essentially be blanked on creatures giving the vial deck a huge advantage. I hope I haven't rehashed too much. I think this is why we need a new thread because it seems like we keep arguing the same points over and over again and a shorter thread with a nice first post might help.

On Glaze Fiend:
I've yet to test but would like to get around to it. I would imagine that Atog would be better if you didn't want to play MoE. Another alternative would be Somber Hoverguard. Although it only hits for 3, unlike everything else mentioned above, its the only card in this list that easily dodges EE and deed.

Shrapnel Blast/Fling/Soul's Fire:
This is what really saddens me about MoE. Some games having that reach after just getting wrecked by deed/wrath/etc it would be nice to be able to just try to burn them out. Has anyone successfully put them in their deck with MoE? And on that note if I expect to face a lot of pernicious deeds obviously I want City of Brass instead of Glimmervoid but could I put in more Darksteel Citadels or do something else to help me against deed?

Sideboards:
Right now I've somewhat recently started testing the deck and I'm wondering about basic sideboard strategy and what a possible board would like. Some basic questions: How would I side against a deck with deed/EE? +needles, + KGrip? -? Combo seems like I would probably want to either abandon the matchup or side in something like therapies and canonists for maybe enforcers and MoE? What about burn or goyf sligh? Jittes seem like they could be good or is simply racing them usually fine? I'm definitely forgetting matchups so maybe people just sharing their current sideboards along with some explanation would helpful enough.

[Xero_2285]

I think that this is a poor example of why vial is so good. Your goldfish situation with drum and the same hand could easily be:
T1: Artifact Land, Drum, Thopter, DotV
T2: Artifact Land, Plating, Equip Thopter, Thopter swings for 5
T3: Artifact Land, Ravager, Thopter swings for 7 + DotV for 1 if there are no blocks. If either DotV can get through or your opponent has cracked a fetch you win.



That's actually a better explanation. But the one I gave was considering facing disruption. I always consider disruption in any game plan. And mine is less susceptible to disruption because of Vial. If they waste a Force on my 1st turn Vial, I'm almost alright with that, less counters I have to face later. Keeping an extra mana open 2nd turn for Daze or not playing a 2cc 2nd turn due to Spell Snare, things like that. But yes, facing NO disruption yours is a better way to go. Turn 1 Drum is really no different than Vial. They both accel for later turns and are both targets for counter, so saying my turn 4 kill is worse than your turn 3 because you drop your whole hand overextending while I play it safe and kill you turn 4, is shenanigans, wich is why I run both, I get to decide wich to play based off of what I'm facing. But, VIAL GETS BY COUNTERS, DRUM DOES NOT. It was an actual winning scenario I have played out in actual games many, many times, not something I just came up with. (Combo and Control are real big in my meta)

[kicks_422]

Agree. Drum might seem faster in some cases (maybe even most), but the uncounterability that Vial grants is just awesome. I used to think Vial is bad for the deck too, as it looks like it could slow the deck down (e.g. if I had Drum instead of Vial, I could have cast these 2 Frogmites one turn earlier!), but in actual play, Vial is much more valuable. Also, the key is playing BOTH of them, as some think that playing Vial means not playing Drum.

[4eak]

@ jseed


So it's pretty obvious that in terms of speed drum is better. I think a better example of vial superiority would be a real game against some kind of blue deck

The situation is not:

Drum or Vial, and not both.

Running one does not mean we expect you to stop running the other. I expect both cards to be in Vial Affinity. You'll see a ton of reasons to run both in the past 10 pages.


Some games having that reach after just getting wrecked by deed/wrath/etc it would be nice to be able to just try to burn them out. Has anyone successfully put them in their deck with MoE?

If you mean "made the best Vial Affinity deck possible" by the word successfully, then the answer is no. The card has fallen out of favor for many reasons.




peace,
4eak

[Proz0r]

A few pages back people are discussing about Arcbound Worker being too weak for the deck. What about Goblin Welder, could he be added to the deck instead? Of course he doesn't add as much aggro, but he is very strong against permission decks. Has anyone tested him?

[Dark_Cynic87]

It's not too weak. It's needed even though it doesn't seem powerful. It can kill a lackey and give it's power and toughness to a flyer (Thopter). It's a double-pump to ravager and a turn one play. It's just got all these little synergies that make it necessary. I'd keep it over Enforcer...

Pce,

--DC

[Zappa]

I have been playing this build for a bit, just gold fishing and stuff. Sunday, I finished my 100th gold fishing runs. I am not really sure but is the deck a little slow? Or does it sound just about right?

The deck list I am running is:

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Paradise Mantle
4 Thoughtcast

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating

SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

Out of 100 Games gold fishing (not on MWS), I've had this results on when I got to kill the opponent on certain turns out of a hundred games.

Turn 3: 3%
Turn 4: 55%
Turn 5: 39%
Turn 6: 1%
Turn 7: 2%

Does that sound just about right to you guys experinced with the deck? Or does it seem a little slow?

I am also trying a 100 games of test run of a UBW build running enlightned tutors instead of Thoughtcast, and Seal of cleansing instead of Krosan Grip, and Ancient Den instead of Tree of Tales, adding also an Executioner's Capsule in the sideboard.

I understand that thoughtcast is probably superior, but I don't want to automatically ignore the card without trying for a bit. Has anyone also tried Enlightened Tutor for their affinity? Here's what I am currently testing out.

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Springleaf Drum

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating

SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Executioner's Capsule
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

Though at the moment since all I am really doing is just gold fishing and sometimes playing my friends, but mostly goldfishing. The sideboard is pretty pointless at the moment since all I do is just gold fish it.

I will then later try to run it through a gauntlet.

But for those of you have has already plenty of experience with this deck, and on a competitive level. What's your take on E. Tutor?

[1maarten1]

Hmm, i dont think cutting thoughtcast is a good idea at all :P. And why are you running mantle? In the list u posted first i would cut 1 vial and 1 drum for 2 enforcers because i think they are great! I dont know about tutor but i do know that its not smart to cut thoughtcast.

~Maarten

[GreenOne]

4 Paradise Mantle
[...]
Out of 100 Games gold fishing (not on MWS), I've had this results on when I got to kill the opponent on certain turns out of a hundred games.

Turn 3: 3%
Turn 4: 55%
Turn 5: 39%
Turn 6: 1%
Turn 7: 2%

Does that sound just about right to you guys experinced with the deck? Or does it seem a little slow?

Replacing Paradise Mantle with drum speeds up the deck a lot. You'll probably have more turn 3 this way.


But for those of you have has already plenty of experience with this deck, and on a competitive level. What's your take on E. Tutor?
I tested it a bit. Having a toolbox was underimpressing, but running the tutor allowed the deck to play the Painter-Grindstone combo. Standard build of affinity are better anyway.

[4eak]

@ Zappa


Out of 100 Games gold fishing (not on MWS), I've had this results on when I got to kill the opponent on certain turns out of a hundred games.

Turn 3: 3%
Turn 4: 55%
Turn 5: 39%
Turn 6: 1%
Turn 7: 2%

I appreciate your time and effort. Given your decklist, those numbers sound right. I think GreenOne's advice is spot on.

While I'm definitely concerned about the clock of the deck, I'm not exactly sure that Vial Affinity is best represented by how fast it can goldfish an opponent's 20 life (even though this is the usual concern for most combo decks).

If this were the goal, by itself, then I would much rather play ANT. You can make builds that goldfish 50% on Turn 1 (at the expense of resilience and protection, and including an equal chance to be on the play and draw).

Vial Affinity isn't blazing fast, and there isn't a way to make it fast enough to compete with other true combo decks. In order for the deck to even be competitive, it really must play a different role. Where a pure combo deck will fail an aggro-combo deck may not.

Vial Affinity is an aggro deck first and a combo deck second.

The strength of an aggro deck in Legacy is that it can play so many raw threats in the deck. Few decks can afford to play 30 creatures in it, and even fewer can play such synergistic ones that build each other up. It is difficult to answer that many creatures, especially if they are coming out as earlier as turn 3. There are not many control and aggro-control decks that can honestly answer us unless they are sideboarding specifically for the deck (Energy Flux, etc.).

The deck isn't looking to goldfish opponents, but rather it is looking for inevitability. Of course dropping fatties early is important, but the resilience to permission and the difficulty in establishing board control against the deck (outside of a few sweepers), makes Affinity a competitive choice in metagames that combo would just fail.

This deck drops raw power on the table, that is all. It has a unique ramp, excellent fatties, and sometimes combos into strong creature-based damage positions. A single FoW doesn't destroy a hand of Affinity, or even timewalk our opponent very much. It is fast, but also resilient against 1 for 1 control cards, and it bombs the opponent.





peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

I apologize I don't know why I put down mantle when it is supposed to be Springleaf Drum :tongue: . I used to use Mantle for the deck until I read what you guys have discussed. I had the deck list saved in a text file in my desktop on my computer. I guess I completly forgat to write over the mantle. But yes, those were the resuts I have had with the spring leaf drum.

The reason why I considered the enlightened tutor vs thoughcast was out of those games, there was several games.. I think maybe 3 or 4 games out of 100. Where I casted thoughtcast and drew no relevant cards... just either two artifact lands, or thopter vial, or something and drum. I understand that It's not really that bad since it does power up Master of Etherium, Plating, Diciple + ravager combo. However those were the games that I did not have a Any of those said cards out and was hoping to draw into them.

I was thinking that perhaps instead of the card advatage I can tutor for the card that I need to really turn the game around. let it be...

Cards I sideboarded (Either needle, chalice, seal of cleansing, thorn of amethyst)... Then again this part is untested since I have been just gold fishing and no actual match results.

Or just fetch for what I need to drop... Master, plating, ravager, or thopter.

However, you guys have by far more experience with the deck. So I'll take your word for it and just stick with Thoughtcast.

For those that has had experience with this match up, could you, if possible share your experience on how you fare against:

1)Burn

2)B/W Confidant...Pikula/home brew... whatever its called. The one running Confidant, Hymn, Sinkholes, Wasteland, and Shade.

3) and the one that I am really concerned with is, how does our match up look like against Landstill? I have been wondering on the proper action when you've calculated that you can deal a near lethal damage to them by over extending but not enough to kill them, and you're aware that Wrath of God is coming down soon.

I guess with experience I'll understand what to do, but right now I am still inexperienced with the deck, so advise is greatly appreciated :laugh:.



Replacing Paradise Mantle with drum speeds up the deck a lot. You'll probably have more turn 3 this way. Yeah I don't know why I forgat to write over the mantle. I had the decklist saved in a txt file in my computer desktop, but I guess I forgat to change it. However, those reults were indeed the one with springleaf drum. Maybe I was just getting unlucky then.

I don't like using MWS since I don't know why... maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems to do a poor job of randomizing my cards. I realize it (or imagining it) when I used to goldfish this one deck before called "Spring Tide" (Sorcery based version of solidarity)... I dunno maybe it's just my imagination.

But I prefer to table shuffle anyways after each test.


NOTE: My friend took a look at the deck list and said that, there's alot of threats in the deck and it is fast but mentions something like "backing up yourartifact threat with a non-artifact threat". What he's trying to get at I guess is not putting all the eggs in 1 basket in case of hate. But his solution for it as he said is since I am running Tree of Tales, Glimmervoid and Drums that I can splash in tarmogoyf. But then again, this person likes to stick this creature in every single deck that at times makes me wonder why it's even in there. But perhaps though, he may have a point. What are you guy's opinion on this one?

Possible extra threat? Or will it just make the deck look silly?

[GreenOne]

Burn is a so so matchup. Either Chalice or Thorn from the side is really helping, but if they're siding Shattering Spree it's not great. The game revolves around a fast Plating, MoE or big Ravager. Something that can race them. You gotta go for the throat, so they must expend resources on dealing with your board.

BW Pikula is a good matchup. Their creatures are small compared to yours, and you run more. You just need to stabilize in the midgame with some lands in play. Your topdecks are better than their (they topdeck discard and you can play whatever you draw).

Landstill strongly depends on which splashes are thy running. Wrath is a lot better than pernicious deed. Aether vial shines in this matchup. Krosan grip and winter orb, needle are nice SB cards.

I ran tarmogoyf when the deck did not have access to Master of Etherium yet. MoE is better. Playing Goyf in, say, Enforcer slot would be worse for the sinergies of the deck (less modular, less affinity, no +1+1 with MoE, less Plating DMG, less artifacts for Disciple and Ravager). Also, I would not play too many coloured cards in the deck. Your friend says that you need less artifact dudes due to hate. I say that if specific hate against artifacts is in your meta you should just NOT play affinity. If there are many Null rods, Serenity, Energy flux, whatever, just change deck. Tarmogoyf would be good but not busted, and it conflicts with the internal sinergyes of the deck. There's also no room unless you want it in the Enforcer slots.

Also, your deck is lacking Darksteel Citadel. I thought there were not many land destruction decks in your meta, but since you mentioned BW Pikula and Landstill (wasteland-crucible) then you may want to have 4.

[Captain Hammer]

Zappa, Enlightened Tutor is interesting but ultimately I don't think the card disadvantage it provides and the slots it takes up are justified.

The only thing you would tutor up is a finisher, so just play more finishers (ravager, that equipment, shrapnel blast, master, all deserve all those slots more).

[Soto]

This isn't Vial Affinty nor is it Ravager Affinity, but it is affinity, so I didn't feel like making another thread (there are 3+ threads that resolve around the same principle). Here's the list:


3 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Chrome Mox

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast

4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Ethersworn Canonist

4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Cranial Plating
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

There you have it. So first thing that shines, is the absence of Arcbound Ravager. My reasons for removing it are simple, dissynergy with Master of Etherium (and to an extent Cranial Plating), and my personal annoyance with it for costing two. Since the deck plays with little mana, I want it to play as many things as possible that hurt the opponent fast. I didn't find that Arcbound Ravager achieved this fast enough.

Next, the absence of Disciple of the Vault. This was an obvious choice to exclude from the Maindeck once Ravager had been removed. At the same time, Arcbound Worker become obsolete without Ravager to get 2 counters, it was too slow. Black was also kind of useless as an extra color.

Now, instead of all that, I added Street Wraiths and Mishra's Baubles. You'll probably criticize the Baubles as bad top decks, and I am very much of that opinion, but I couldn't find anything better to thin the deck and help it out at the same type as Affinity fodder. The Street Wraiths do their job well, and will pitch to the 1 (maybe change this to more) Chrome Mox.

The Swords to Plowshares are pretty selp explanatory in the sense that the general metagame has become very aggressive with big creatures, and there is no spectacular cheap creature removal spell that is an artifact.

Another big change in the metagame is ANT. The Ethersworn Canonist are mostly in the Maindeck for that, but help against any deck really.

In a first draft of the deck, I wasn't playing Glimmervoids and hitting lands on my draws was rare, and since I need fast mana for my plays, I decided to add them. Also, Springleaf Drum is incredible boost with Ornithopter, or Frogmites if your hand allows it.

The rest of the creature base and other cards are needed in any Affinity deck.

The sideboard is pretty much whatever, but answers most decks. I usually side out the Street Wraiths and/or Mishra's Baubles.

The deck plays a sound amount of artifacts 49/56 (4 Street Wraiths). Getting the colors you need hasn't been difficult in testing.


The deck itself plays pretty simply. Ethersworn Canonist should come into play soon if you have it. With the Thoughtcasts, Mishra's Baubles, and Street Wraiths, you'll have a good amount of cards to play per turn, making answering your threats harder for your opponent. One difficulty with long lasting Affinity games was the fact that your opponent would play creatures to block yours. With Swords to Plowshares and Master of Etherium that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

My main concerns for the deck are the singleton Chrome Mox and the free draws.

All suggestions welcome, obv.

[Zappa]

Since the deck plays with little mana, I want it to play as many things as possible that hurt the opponent fast.

Hi Soto, I too am testing out a white splash of vial affinity to fetch anwers / threats agfainst certain match ups and positions, along with a singleton Hanna's Custody main decked. Even though I promised my self to reach 100 games of play test before I give it up, I have already played 76 games so far and I must say it is rather slow. SO my experiment may end already as I was more satisfied with the UBG version running krosan grip in the SB.

I must say though that I find it odd that you wanna put the hurting on the opponent fast but you ditched the cards that does it.

1) Ravager - you mentioned that this card has a bad synergy with Master of Etherium. But you know you don't really always have to commit to wiping your board clean. I see ravager as means of making use of what would normally die and make himself bigger in the process...
- Annoying combat trick
- Sacrifing something in response to what ever malicious spell aimed at
your threats.
- (With disciple) Ending the game where you normally couldn't have gone
though. Like Being faced with Ghostly Prison / Propaganda, Moat,
Elephant Grass (Enchantress), or your opponent just somehow managed
to build one heck of a defense against yours.

2) With your list your running a fairly low amount of creatures for a deck that really wants to be the aggro. I wouldn't consider the wraiths as clock either since you seem to be just using it for draw. That and the same reason that you mentioned ravager costing 2.

3) As for the Bauble, hmm, I don't like how vial was replaced for it.

I like how you're trying to work on cantrips though. But I'd rather focus on:
Speed, Synergy, and Threat Density.



A question I have for everyone though. Any opinion on Cursed Scroll perhaps even just as a singleton? It would make control think twice about letting it resolve, and it can atleast kill Kataki or Meddling Mage.

Just wondering coz I used to run 1 in my B/W Confidant, and just find it funny seeing as a 1 off. :tongue:

[4eak]

@ Soto

Shuffled your deck up and played a few; the deck is slow. It has the classic aggro mistake of spending slots to answer other decks while tremendously decreasing your own synergy and speed. Essentially, you make the game go on longer, but you also win much later. You've not developed anything better than or equal to what we already have.

Removal of Ravager, Disciple, and Vial are unacceptable. (I'm not saying it dogmatically; years of testing will also show you this is true)

Who cares if MoE and Ravager have a slight conflict of interest? That conflict of interest existed long before MoE; see Cranial Plating. Games where both cards are active are games where you were already winning. Usually you'll only have one scaling card active on the board, and so playing as many scaling cards as possible (increasing the odds of having a bomb) is very important.

Ravager and MoE play different roles too. Ravager is still the strongest card in the deck. Ravager creates resilience and forces through damage where MoE cannot. Where MoE is better than Ravager, you were usually already winning -- and even then, MoE is only barely better than Ravager in those cases. Ravager turns losing game states into winning ones way more than MoE.

As for Vial, read the past 15 pages or so. If you aren't convinced, then test it. Test it against a serious gauntlet. With real play experience, you're going to see why we play Aether Vial in Vial Affinity.

Bauble/Wraith is an interesting choice, but it isn't a strong one (especially not at the expense of Disciple/Ravager/Vial). I consider it subpar in this deck because we have more complicated decisions and tempo requirements to make and meet about our cards than a more redundant deck like Burn. I will admit that your mana-base, while it only has 16 land, can actually be played when you play 8 free-cantrips. This is still not as strong as just playing Vial Affinity though.

In my experience, white cards should only show up in the sideboard.



peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

Has anyone seen one of the new spoiled cards for the new set? There's a white card there that I am wondering if it could make the BUW a nice choice.

With white we gain access (even if it's just sideboard wise) to:

- Disenchant / Seal of Cleansing
- Ethersworn Canonist

It seems like it helps us more get on the aggressive role faster, as well as having more ways of answring a turn 1 lackey as well. Here is the new card I wanted your opinion on.

Court Homunculus:
Artifact Creature - Homunculus
Casting Cost: W
Power/Toughness: 1/1
Ability: Court homunculus gets +1/+1 if you control another artifact.

[Damnosus]

It seems like it helps us more get on the aggressive role faster, as well as having more ways of answring a turn 1 lackey as well. Here is the new card I wanted your opinion on.

Court Homunculus:
Artifact Creature - Homunculus
Casting Cost: W
Power/Toughness: 1/1
Ability: Court homunculus gets +1/+1 if you control another artifact.

I will agree that I am liking the white splash a great deal: gives better answers for combo than green, and better against enchantments than red. It helps to even out some of the more difficult matchups (i.e. the ones that are nearly automatic losses).

That being said, the Homunculus is terrible. What would it replace? Worker (the first card I could think of that it would replace) is just so much better and synergistic. I would say CH is a big no no for this deck.

[Kilz88]

Ok, so I know I will be flamed heavily for this so maybe give me some slack...With the spoiler in mind and my recent over thinking about the deck I have come up with a new list with one very drastic and off the wall change:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Court Homunculus
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Springleaf Drum

SB
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt/Stifle
3 Seal of Cleansing

Now I know by now you are really to bite my head off but let me explain a few things.

First off, this is what I am TESTING not planning on taking to a grand prix or anything. Secondly, shuffle up the deck before you say a damn thing.

So. Lets start with some small changes and get them out of the way before I get to the big ones.

Nexus: I think this card is quite neccissary due to the overabundance of moat these days. Not to mention its ability to stay on the board as a threat if they hit you with serenity.

"4" Vials: Due to the most obvious creature change, I think this card is more important than ever. Not to mention standstills all over the damn metagame.

Now, 4 Court Munky: I have decided to cut ravager for a few reasons: #1, he is quite anti-synergistic with master. Master is one of the greatest things to have happened to this deck in a long time and I feel that in order to make full use of him, we need to keep our shit in play and on the board. #2, I have put off getting my foil ravagers for now and been rid of the non foil copies in the meantime. Lets work with what I got then...Now with ravager leaving comes the question, is disciple still worth it? I know they are the reason this deck is as successful as its is but one without the other is merely another "good" card. So munky is in disciple's slot and man is he been aggressive in testing. He is another target for modular, he keeps tempo with his being an artifact, unlike disciple, and he is a 3/3 under master. He will always be a 2/2 before mongoose is a 3/3.

I was then posed with the question...what could fill ravager's spot and still be an effective 2 drop. Well I thought of a few things ravager did besides sac stuff. He is an artifact, and he draws out counters. Well that gave me a few choices: Seeing how atog is the opposite of what I am going for he was pushed aside. Luckily for us we have this esper shard throwing us some very cool options (Oh and btw, dropped it to 3 for a 3rd drum...could go back up to 4 if the card that ends up in ravager's spot is a colorless guy):

Tidehollow Stix: The tarmo//dreadnought killer!!! and he has evasion!!! Honestly it is a cool option I may try in the future but we'll see.

Tidehollow Sculler: This guy does exactly what this deck needs, IMO. Against the matches that are difficult for this deck, he really can lend a helping hand. He is a creature and gets pumped by modular and master AND he pumps master himself while taking out that big blocker, counter/stifle, or sideboarded hate card giving you just enough time to smash in FTW. Vialing him in is AMAZING.

Etherium Sculptor: Havent thought he was too stellar yet. He makes you a little faster but is kind of ugh with vial.

Bringing canonist into the main: At first this is what I did, and may end up doing in the end. Combo is a hard match up and this gives you one more chance to win it. Not to mention it can randomly hurt loam decks and someone digging for a counterspell. /we then get another slot in the board, cool!

Epochrasite: Sweet with vial and sticks around after people rape you with mass removal. Me likey.

Lastly, here is this new guy that just got posted on the spoiler:

Salvage Slasher - :1: :b:
Artifact Creature - Human Rogue (C)
Salvage Slasher gets +1/+0 for each artifact card in your graveyard.
1/1

He upsets me because I think he may cater to the previous stratagies more than my current one but I wanted to hear some other feedback on him. I don't think he belongs in my build but maybe I am wrong...

Thanks for being patient and lemme know, in a polite manner, whether you think I am an idiot or an innovator.

[GUdrus]

Hi, guys. I'm the new guy, having just signed to this forum and am just discovering Legacy format. I play Affinity in extended, so just a few budget changes makes the deck Legacy worthy, so desided it will be a good deck for starting a new format.

I see Affinity as having a lot of room for subtle changes that makes it go a little different direction, and still can't deside wich way to go. Hope you will give me a few advices.

The deck I am currently testing:

Lands (18):
4x Seat of Synod
4x Great Furnace
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Tree of Tales
2x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Glimmervoid

4x Arcbbound Worker
4x Ornithopter
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Frogmite
4x Arcbound Ravager
3x Master of Etherium
3x Myr Enforcer

4x Thoughtcast
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Aether Vial
4x Cranial Plating

Sideboard:

3x Thoughtseize (against combo and threshhold)
3x Thorn of Amethyst (against storm based combo)
2x Engineered Explosives (goblins and belcher tokens, thought I'm thinking to changes these into pyroclasm)
4x Tormod's Crypt (ichorid and cephalid breakfast)
3x Ancient Grudge (other affinities)

I have 8 accelerant, and think about cutting 1, but can't deside wich. It seems you really want to have turn1 vial, so I am leaning towards cuting the drum.

Also, I still can't deside if Atogs and Flings have their place in the deck and do Myr enforcers and Masters belong in the deck. They seem a bit slow, but nether I am very happy with atogs and flings.

So, any suggestions?

[Zappa]

@Kilz88

I was doing a test on a white splash but only for the addition Enlightened Tutors, to fetch for the card that could swing the game around, as well as a silver bullet (Hanna's Custody or Cused Scroll). Addition of white also means being able to run a sideboard with Canonist and Seal of Cleansing.

I tried your list on MWS but used isamaru and pretended that it was the Homunculus. Upon testing that list that you gave, I have not seen any turn 3 kills, turn 4 kills were lower than usual, and I was seeing an average of turn 5-6, a few turn 7s as well.

Sculler is VERY hard to cast, and at times just sitting there in my hand until I can vial it in or hit a glimmer void (which you're only running 2), or drum (which you're only running 3).

Also a big note I wanna tell you is losing ravager and disciple is NOT worth it. These two guys is something that shouldn't really be touched. They speed up the deck, help dodge some removal or punish them for it, as well as having some nice combat tricks.

Ravager and master works well in the deck. with them you have more threats and better top deck, master makes ravager a fine 2/2 and ravager see master as potential food. Remember you don't always have to use ravager to sac your whole board, you use him to dodge removals.

From testing Isamaru the one i'm using as pretend to be Homunculus, it is not worth it. The deck slowly becomes diluted when more and more color specific casting cost cards are added in. Atleats with red if youre using Shrapnel/Fling and Atog those cards can end the game if unanswered... turn 10 clock on another hand is not worth it.


"4" Vials: Due to the most obvious creature change, I think this card is more important than ever. Not to mention standstills all over the damn metagame.
I was under the impression that vial is an auto include in the deck, hence the namesake.



@GUDrus
Hi and welcome to mtgthesource. As for the Fling and Atog, they're still pretty good, however, It just doesnt seem to be needed as much with the printing of Master, but fling and atog is still good choices. Just refrain from having getting too many colored cards in the deck. If you do, you'll notice that you'll find yourself holding back on cards due to difficulty of casting them, or finding yourself mulliganing alot more also.

I like the deck you have so far, with the exception of the mana base. But then again how could I not like it it's pretty much a standard build :laugh:. But do you really need tree and furnace together?

The current decklist I am running is this one...

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating

SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

If anything I wan't to keep my drum and glimmer to a maximum so I have an additional 8 ways to produce the mana I need. I tried a white splash also for some added versatility, however it lost the explosiveness from the Thoughtcast. Here's the White version I was tesing on MWS, if you're interested or just curious.

This one is what I am testing in MWS at the moment.

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Springleaf Drum
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
1 Cursed Scroll

SB: 4 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

The only difference here besides the ancient den, is thetutor and singleton scroll, and sideboarded cleansing and canonist, just basically went for the idea of being able to tutor up an a threat or answer depending on the situation.

However, I still prefer the first build as I'd rather have Krosan Grip.

[GreenOne]

Lands (18):
4x Seat of Synod
4x Great Furnace
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Tree of Tales
2x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Glimmervoid

You don't need the great furnaces just for the Ancient Grudge in the SB.
Go with:
-4 furnace
-2 nexus
+1 Tree of tales
+4 Darksteel Citadel
+1 Glimmervoid / City of brass
If there's no Wasteland/land destruction in your meta:
-4 furnace
+1 Tree of tales
+2 Darksteel Citadel
+1 Glimmervoid / City of brass



4x Arcbbound Worker
4x Ornithopter
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Frogmite
4x Arcbound Ravager
3x Master of Etherium
3x Myr Enforcer

4x Thoughtcast
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Aether Vial
4x Cranial Plating

4x Master of etherium is needed. The card is the bigger beatstick in the format (beside sometimes maybe Crusher/Terravore/Dreadnough). Cut 1 Enforcer or 1 Drum for it.

Sideboard:



3x Thoughtseize (against combo and threshhold)
3x Thorn of Amethyst (against storm based combo)
2x Engineered Explosives (goblins and belcher tokens, thought I'm thinking to changes these into pyroclasm)
4x Tormod's Crypt (ichorid and cephalid breakfast)
3x Ancient Grudge (other affinities)

Ancient grudge simply sucks in the format due to the low number of Affinity decks and the high number of problematic Enchantments. Krosan Grip is on-color and the best solution for those.

[mans0011]

My brother was killed by a wild quote, you insensitive clod! - NC


NOTE: My friend took a look at the deck list and said that, there's alot of threats in the deck and it is fast but mentions something like "backing up yourartifact threat with a non-artifact threat". What he's trying to get at I guess is not putting all the eggs in 1 basket in case of hate. But his solution for it as he said is since I am running Tree of Tales, Glimmervoid and Drums that I can splash in tarmogoyf. But then again, this person likes to stick this creature in every single deck that at times makes me wonder why it's even in there. But perhaps though, he may have a point. What are you guy's opinion on this one?

Possible extra threat? Or will it just make the deck look silly?

Tarmogoyf bends over to our biggest problem just like most of the other creatures: Deed. In fact, Enforcer and Frogmite actually become champions in this situation.

And a double-post killed my father!! - NC

Zappa,

you don't feel like you have too much mana going on? That's a lot of vials/drums/lands in concert. It would be a different story if we had access to the original moxes where they add mana, become food for ravager, power out a yawgmoth's win and become food somore more, but that's not the case here. I think you could probably cut a land, a vial and a drum.

On a side note:

why do people insist on taking otu disciple/ravager? These cards are not only good in concert. They are the two most powerful cards affinity has at its disposal. They are game-winning together, but otherwise they are massive threats. Disciple gives you retarded reach, especially because permanents see each other go to the graveyard. Which is why vial is amazing because you can do tricks in response to mass removal (Tap out to deed your board, in response vial in disciple, game over). As 4reak has mentioned, removing these three cards is a terrible mistake and will cost you more games than other cards in those slots will win you. White is too clow/controlish. Blue is also too slow, but having 2/3 of Ancestral recall is too delicious to pass up. (Well, and with the addition of Master of Etherium, we can being even bigger beats).

Okay, I'll end my rant here.

[Zappa]

@Mans0011


you don't feel like you have too much mana going on? That's a lot of vials/drums/lands in concert. It would be a different story if we had access to the original moxes where they add mana, become food for ravager, power out a yawgmoth's win and become food somore more, but that's not the case here. I think you could probably cut a land, a vial and a drum.


You know, I have recently picked up this deck, like early december of 2008. I spent the time to read the discussions that was made here and the one at mtgsalvation also. I figured I'll try to learn from people's experience, especially since some of them have a clear long experience of playing the deck. While I may have only recently picked it up, I set aside al my other decks and kept playing only this. While I may not have much experience yet, I have a clear understanding what's important.

As for the mana base, pretty much I just listened to 4eak's and GreenOne's opinions somewhere on one of the pages on this thread. Quite frankly though it has never really bothered me at all, though nexus at times I feel like I need to question. Since majority of the games I played I rarely get to use it (transferring counters on it), in case my board gets wiped.

But I feel like it's one of those necessary evil I need to take for "Just in case" scenarios. At time's I tend to have alot of mana, but I feel like running less would have mana issues. So I am just playing 18 and just treat the extra lands later as ravager food.


why do people insist on taking otu disciple/ravager? These cards are not only good in concert. They are the two most powerful cards affinity has at its disposal.

I don't know. Maybe it's because of the printing of Master of Etherium that they start thinking that it becomes less synergistic. But even back then without master, Cranial Plating is always somehting I love to see. Alot of my turn 3 kills were between a big damage boost from a disciple/ravager kill or a Plating/Master of Etherium kill.

The only thing I feel somewhat unsatisfied with my list is that I feel that the 2 affinity beaters should be a count of 7, in combination of either 4/3 or 3/4 between Frogmite and Enforcer. As this is the two cards I feel most comfortable seeing when opponent drops a deed. The question of course is what to take out? 1 Nexus, glimmer or perhaps a drum? Cutting 1 vial I feel gets a big NO.



@ Everyone
None of my friends or people from a local store (more like 35 min away :tongue:) play threshold. Those that have experience playing against it... how do we fare? Is it a really bad match up? Do I play cautiously or just go for the throat? I haven't played against the deck, and considering it's supposed to be a large portion of legacy I'm like... :cry: We'll one of my friend plays or... supposingly plays threshold but I can't consider it one since it's not on its usual form yet. His mana base lacks the duals and fetches. But does anyone have experience versus a competent threshold deck?

[4eak]

@ Mans0011

18 lands and 4/4 of Vial/Drum is quite acceptable. I would have no problem with seeing a 20 land-base in Affinity, whereas I definitely would have a problem with a 16 land-base (unless you are running 4x Chrome Mox).

Where most aggro decks never want to see land beyond the 3rd or 4th, land almost always adds to the board beyond mana production in Affinity. It is always better to be safer with your mana base, especially when there is so much land destruction in the format.

I'm not saying Zappa can't afford to lose a land if he wanted to drop one, but I don't necessarily think he should. I mean, he doesn't even have Darksteel Citadel to answer any form of deed or LD, so a few more mana sources provide a bit more breathing room as well.

@ Zappa

I think you should run Darksteel Citadel. You have not splashed for a third color in your current list. This means you really don't have a good reason not to play DSCit.

You speak of Deed, then you should play DSCit.

Blinkmoth Nexus is probably dead. That card is gone, like Atog. It isn't a natural artifact, and the man-plan is just not worth the loss in synergy. Play Artifact Lands and rainbow lands.

Lastly, I've also found Homunculus is not great. I prefer Worker to Homunculus completely.



peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

Having Tree of Tales for the sideboarded Krosan Grip is pretty much the reason why I have Tree of Tales, having 12 ways to produe 1 green colored mana is the reason why I wasn't running any citadels.

But I will take your word for it, but what would be an adviseable mana base? Given the deck list I am running:

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating

SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
-2 Tree of Tales
+4 Darksteel Citadel?
Atleast with this set up, when I boarded in Krosan Grip I'll still have 10 Ways to produce the necessary green to cast K. Grip, if possible I really wanna try to avoid dropping any less than that.

Is the alternate plan for putting the counters on blinkmoth nexus as a last resort and alternate win no longer needed? I understand the atog thing being obselete but I am not quite understanding the reason for the nexus though. Aren't there situations where you feel like nexus would be nice?

+ Can be one of the survivors after deed
+ Additional flyer to be equipped as well as attacking through Moat
+ Nice surprise with Master
+ Last resort for alternate win by putting modular counters on it
+ At worse its a 1 activation cost ravager food

What would you recommend for a better mana base?

4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Ciradel

14 artifact lands with 12 ways to produce B/U mana and 10 ways to produce G.

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid

This set up has 16 artifact lands, potentially speeding up the deck more, but also becomes a double sided sword as well. Since there will only be 10 ways to produce each colors, which could potentially also lead to holding back cards unless a glimmer or drum comes down.

[4eak]

@ Zappa

Oops. I meant 4-colors, not 3-colors in my previous post, but the advice remains the same. Essentially, there are a few metagames where Affinity can be viable where Darksteel Citadel isn't absolutely necessary, and if important enough, could be substituted for a 4th color. Since you don't play a 4th color, you don't have a good reason not to play DSCitadel.

If you have deed in your meta, then I suggest this for a Ubg:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Tree of Tales
3 City of Brass (Glimmervoid isn't a bad alternative at all, but for deed, CoB is better)

Although, I'm not opposed to your offer of 2 ToTales and 4 Rainbow lands, given your mana smoothing from 4 Vial/Drum, I would still suggest higher Artifact land count as opposed to the 4th CoB/Glimmervoid. You are still tweaking the deck for your meta though, so go for 4 rainbow if you want -- I can definitely see metagames where I would play 4 CoB.

I would not, however, go below the 3 rainbow lands. My testing has shown 2 to be the minimum, yes, but 3 has been the optimal number for us.


Aren't there situations where you feel like nexus would be nice?

Definitely. But, there is a serious cost to not having the natural artifact land in its place. That opportunity cost is the reason I no longer play Nexus myself.

I love Blinkmoth Nexus. Like Shrapnel Blast, I am very sad to be forced to remove Nexus from the deck. A classic card is no longer worthy enough. I can name situations in which I prefer to have Shrapnel blast in my hand--however, most of the time, I prefer the cards which have replaced Shrapnel blast. Blinkmoth Nexus has the same problem.

Tally up the times you prefer the card to be Nexus or an artifact land--you'll be astounded how poorly the card compares to DSCitadel.




peace,
4eak

[mans0011]

4eak,

I've been away from Vial Affinity for some months now, but I thought your previous incarnations only ran 3 vial and 3 drum. Has something changed? And yes, I forgot that 18 is the land count we're really looking for, I guess I was mostly referring to the number if vials and drums. I've been doing vintage testing and research, so not as much thought this way of the meta.

[Recon]

Hi Guys,

I've read a bit through this thread and I wondered why E.Canonist isnt used that much? Same goes for Swords to Plowshares (SideB)...

In Extended I play the Canonist main, and it helps me a lot since it slows the oppo down a lot. Could be the meta here or the different format of course :wink:

I had some more questions and some input, but i'll post that tomorrow. It's getting late over here :wink:
I was just thinking about the above...




PS.
By the way, I don't have much experience with Affinity in Legacy. I used to play Ichorid...

[DalkonCledwin]

what does Vial Affinity and other Affinity decks / players think of the new card named Salvager Slasher?

Salvager Slasher :1::b:
(common)
Artifact Creature - Human Rogue
Salvage Slasher gets +1/+0 for each artifact card in your graveyard.
1/1

looks like it may have really good synergy with Ravager in that you play this, then dump alot of creatures into the Graveyard with Ravager, and in the process get two really big creatures :laugh:

[4eak]

@ mans0011

You are correct, I still run 18/3/3 for land/vial/drum. I consider it fairly optimal, although I'm not opposed to running more.

My only point was that 1 or 2 more mana-sources shouldn't be frowned upon. I'd be half tempted to go for the 19th land before I went for the 8th mana accelerant though.


@ Recon

For E-Canon, here is what I have said previously:


I've tested him quite a bit. I love the card. I don't think he is aggressive enough, and in order to run in the main, Affinity variations will need to be adjusted. 8-ball, Erayo-Affinity, and AfFOWnity have the best chances of making a deck can truly abuse him.

E-Canon doesn't belong in the main of Vial Affinity, but if you chose to splash white instead of green, he could be a reasonable anti-combo card. It requires that you bastardize your sideboard to play against combo. You literally have to play 12+ cards against combo to even have a shot.

In my experience, E-Canon is a much stronger card in Vintage than in Legacy. While I love the card, I'm doubtful that this card will be finding a home in Legacy for a while.

and


I've tested the card, and outside of the combo match, he is not as powerful as the cards that he would replace. Whatever tempo he provides in the form of timewalks just doesn't make up the lack of damage. In the end, most decks are still just playing about 1 spell a turn anyways. Although it does damage cantrip engines, it isn't worth the loss in damage (which is the strength we have against any blue-based deck with a cantrip engine).

Against non-combo decks, E-Canon just gives them more time to find an answer because you aren't killing them early enough. The Arcane Lab effect, even if mainly one-sided, is just not amazing against any deck that isn't combo.

However, E-Canon is a pimp against combo if you can actually get him into play before you lose.

Vial Affinity has a choice to make about how it will deal with combo in any given metagame. We know the deck simply doesn't belong, regardless of how you build it, in a metagame with any substantial amount of combo, but it is possible for the deck to survive in a metagame with just a couple combo decks, especially if those combo decks are not well-tuned ANT/TES decks with good pilots (that is quite a condition).

If you believe the main is strong enough on its own, with no need for improvement against the majority of your metagame that isn't combo (beyond a few needles), then you can choose to put 12+ combo hate pieces in your side to actually have a shot against some combo decks (of course, not great combo decks and players). I think that is an unlikely metagame for most people though.

The other option is to nearly give up the combo match. This is the price you pay for playing Vial Affinity (or any other aggro deck).

Lastly, E-Canon is white, and that isn't the color I want to play. I'm pretty much convinced that Krosan Grip is mandatory. Splashing for anything other than green is very difficult to accomplish.


@ DalkonCledwin

At first glance, Slasher is a poor version of Disciple when comboing with Ravager. It can be powerful, especially when we are losing, but this card won't be turning the tide in those cases.

Affinity really shouldn't be putting cards in the GY until it is already close to winning.

I will try him out though.




peace,
4eak

[Pltnmngl]

So it's time to revamp my deck. I'm obviously getting 4 Moe's, but I'm not still on the ropes about using Green or White. Krosan Grip is great, but I'm thinking I can use the white Seal and not worry about holding mana. Thoughts?

[GreenOne]

So it's time to revamp my deck. I'm obviously getting 4 Moe's, but I'm not still on the ropes about using Green or White. Krosan Grip is great, but I'm thinking I can use the white Seal and not worry about holding mana. Thoughts?
You want to cast your threats in the first turns of the game, so you don't wanna tap out just to play a seal. If the opponent meanwhile plays a CB you're done.

Since you want to cast Krosan grip after turn 4 anyway, it doesn't matter if it costs your turn: you already played your threats.

[Pltnmngl]

Ok. So is there something else that makes green worth it?

Also, what else should I sb for the basic meta now? Crypt and Needle seem obvious. Anything else?

[4eak]

Ok. So is there something else that makes green worth it?

Not for Affinity. But, we don't need another reason. Krosan Grip is as good as it gets.


Also, what else should I sb for the basic meta now? Crypt and Needle seem obvious. Anything else?

4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip
3-4 Tormod's Crypt
3-4 Metaslot

I generally use Chalice in this slot. But, Winter Orb, SoR/ToA, are also strong generic choices.




peace,
4eak

[Bongo]

Hey all,

I'm using a pretty basic Affinity list right now, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

First, the list:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Shrapnel Blast

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle


I chose to run 4 Darksteel Citadels, as they're quite good against Wasteland, Sinkhole, Deed and other nasty stuff. Shrapnel Blast has also been very good for me, especially in combination with Disciple.

I'm not sure on the Myr Enforcer though. Sometimes they're great, but sometimes they sit in my hand for too long. Is there a better option in this slot?
I've been thinking about Chromatic Star to smooth out the mana some more. What do you think?

The sideboard has been satisfying, but not great. Further ideas are very appreciated. I only included artifacts because I often couldn't cast colored answers.

[mans0011]

Hey all,

I'm using a pretty basic Affinity list right now, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

First, the list:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Shrapnel Blast

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle


I chose to run 4 Darksteel Citadels, as they're quite good against Wasteland, Sinkhole, Deed and other nasty stuff. Shrapnel Blast has also been very good for me, especially in combination with Disciple.

I'm not sure on the Myr Enforcer though. Sometimes they're great, but sometimes they sit in my hand for too long. Is there a better option in this slot?
I've been thinking about Chromatic Star to smooth out the mana some more. What do you think?

The sideboard has been satisfying, but not great. Further ideas are very appreciated. I only included artifacts because I often couldn't cast colored answers.

You'll find some pretty good discussion about the proper inclusions for a list. At first gloss, I would say cut blinkmoth nexus, put in 2-3 Springleaf Drum. Also... shrapnel Blast is becoming less effective. Cut them 2-3 rainbow lands. Anything more in-depth should come from your reading of the past 3 or 4 pages. Good stuff there.

[Bongo]

Well, I read the last few pages, but there has been no discussion about Myr Enforcer and Chromatic Star.

While some said Shrapnel Blast is not what it used to be, I didn't find any reasoning. Why is Shrapnel Blast not good anymore? In my (limited) testing it's been very good, dealing the last few damage or even removing troublesome threats.

Blinkmoth Nexus I'd like to keep, as that card has won me many games and has great synergy with the deck. 2-of seems fine, as I don't want to see multiples and hurt my artifact count too much.

[mans0011]

Well, I read the last few pages, but there has been no discussion about Myr Enforcer and Chromatic Star.

While some said Shrapnel Blast is not what it used to be, I didn't find any reasoning. Why is Shrapnel Blast not good anymore? In my (limited) testing it's been very good, dealing the last few damage or even removing troublesome threats.

Blinkmoth Nexus I'd like to keep, as that card has won me many games and has great synergy with the deck. 2-of seems fine, as I don't want to see multiples and hurt my artifact count too much.

4eak is the best person to talk to about this. You want to maximize your artifact count. Shrapnel blast is simply not an artifact. Your non artifact cards need to be stellar in order to run them. Thoughtcast is 2/3 of Ancestral Recall-sign me up. Disciple of the vault is arguably the best card in the deck. Springleaf drum is, overall, better mana smoothing for the deck than chromatic star, even though star can draw you a card. It's a one-shot. Drum also has the ability to accelerate your first few turns. There's a post around here somewhere that 4eak explains most of this.

[4eak]

@ Bongo

My list is nearly identical to yours. Your list to mine:

-4 Great Furnace
-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
-3 Shrapnel Blast
-1 Aether Vial

for

+3 Tree of Tales
+3 Glimmervoid
+3 Springleaf Drum
+1 Myr Enforcer

I also don't have Jitte's in my sideboard. The card is too expensive to use effectively.

Blinkmoth Nexus competes with color smoothing and pure artifact lands. It loses on both accounts. You need to guarantee that you can play MoE at all times, just as you need to guarantee Ravager/Plating (which have no color requirements, so that isn't so hard). MoE changes how we build our mana base.

I can see why you are interested in Chromatic Star. You have no mana color smoothing outside of Vial. This is odd considering you have Shrapnel blast in the deck as well, and so your mana smoothing needs are even greater than mine in the main.

Here's the deal: Drum is just better than Star. Drum isn't just mana smoothing, but it is also mana acceleration. It is Vial 5-7 or 8, and we desperately need mana acceleration that doesn't cost us card advantage. Chromatic Star smoothes, but it isn't actually accelerating your mana.

Lastly, Shrapnel is sitting in Drum's spot. Drum is much more important to the synergy and speed of the deck. It is vital that you can (excuse my glee over the phrase) "regurgitate your hand on third turn", and drum gives us this advantage. Shrapnel will definitely win you games, but if you sit down to seriously test Drum vs. Shrapnel, you'll see that you'll have won many more games by playing Drum instead. While Shrapnel sat your in hand, Drum would be regurgitating hands, smoothing out your colors, and making unkeepable hands keepable ones (a form of card advantage).





peace,
4eak

[Pltnmngl]

4eak, what's your current list?

[Bongo]

Thanks for the in-depth reply!

Drum is definitely better, I cut the Shrapnel Blasts for Drums, and the deck runs a lot smoother.

The sideboard still feels underdeveloped The Jittes seem bad in theory, but have been quite solid for me against Goblins, Elf Aggro and the mirror. As soon as there is a better option, I'll probably switch.
I'm thinking about cutting one each of Needle, Crypt and Chalice for 3 more sideboard slots. What would you recommend?

[Pltnmngl]

Is anyone looking at Conflux? I'm seeing a decent amount of potential. By the time this block is done, we should never have to worry about mana-fixing ever again!

[Avatar of Light]

4eak, what's your current list?

To save 4eak some time, given the changes he listed:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Tree of Tales
3 Glimmervoid

3 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating

4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

[mans0011]

Thanks for the in-depth reply!

Drum is definitely better, I cut the Shrapnel Blasts for Drums, and the deck runs a lot smoother.

The sideboard still feels underdeveloped The Jittes seem bad in theory, but have been quite solid for me against Goblins, Elf Aggro and the mirror. As soon as there is a better option, I'll probably switch.
I'm thinking about cutting one each of Needle, Crypt and Chalice for 3 more sideboard slots. What would you recommend?

What is the climate of your metagame?

[Omega]

Are aether vial still necessary in current metagame? I have the feeling they are too slow and would prefer much rather some disruption in its spot. Say Thoguthseize/cabal therapy

Robert

[Pltnmngl]

3 Glimmervoids? That almost seems like too much, but I haven't tested with 3 lately...

Is anything interesting anybody in Conflux?

[Bardo]

This thread is a couple of years old.

The new one is here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12604