[Deck] Vial Affinity [Archive]

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Xero

11-03-2006, 01:50 PM

First, I realize that there are other threads about Affinity; however, none of them really discusses the version of the deck that has had the most success. Anyways, here is a list:

Vial Affinity:

Creatures:
4x Archbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Disciple of the Vault
3x Atog
3x Ornithopter
3x Archbound Worker

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Chromatic Star
4x Thoughtcast
3x Cranial Plating
3x Fling

Land:
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Glimmervoid

Sideboard;
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Sphere of Resistance

Card Choices:
Vial vs. Paradise Mantle: Vial is just better. It helps immensely versus Aggro-Control decks like Gro and Madness, against Control decks, and as a way of surprising opponents. There’s nothing like Vialing in a disciple in response to Akroma’s Vengeance for the win. Mantle, on the other hand, smoothes out the mana-base. With only 14 colored spells, 7 of which are easily castable via vial, Mantle in not that great.

4 Myr Enforcers: Arguably the slowest card in the deck, Enforcers can still come down on turns 3-4 with ease. They are extremely good against Gro and Madness, and help with the Goblin match-up too. One big thing in Enforcers favor is that they fight through some of the common hate brought against Affinity: Pernicious Deed will almost never be big enough to kill them, and Null Rod does nothing to a resolved Enforcer.

Fling vs. Berserk: Fling allows you to win at instant speed, without attacking. Furthermore, running Berserk virtually guarantees that you will be cutting blue, which means no Thoughtcast. That’s a mistake, Thougtcast is necessary for refilling your hand after a big turn. Fling also allows you to kill creatures if absolutely necesseary. Kataki or Goblin Welder can kill you: fling gives Affinity a way to get rid of those creatures.

Match-ups:

Gro: Favorable. The red version is generally easier to beat than the white one. Affinity brings creatures out far faster than gro, and Enforcer/Ravager are often the biggest things on the table. First turn vial is extremely good, as it allows you to bring in your most dangerous creatures without worrying about counters.

Goblins: Depends highly on version. RW is slightly unfavorable, mono-red is about even in my experience. Again, Enforcers and ravagers are often the biggest critters around. Both decks are very fast, so going all out might not be a bad idea. Sideboarding helps. Obviously, the match-up gets much harder if Goblins are running multiple Tinkers or Disenchant.

Solidarity: Bad. Sometimes, you get the 3-4 turn win and they don’t have counters. Otherwise, you loose. Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard helps some.

Other Aggro-control (Madness/Fish/etc.) Favorable. These decks usually have trouble with large creatures on the board.

Playing the deck: Affinity can play as straight aggro or as aggro-combo. Early in the game, Frogmites, Myr Enforcers, and Archbound Workers can knock your opponents life total down enough for a lethal strike via Atog/Ravager + Fling (/Disciple). Cranial Plating can also cause combo kills. For instance: attacking with worker, frogmite, frogmite (cranial plating + vault of whipers +glimmervoid in play) against werebear, nimble mongoose. Your opponent will most likely block the two frogmites; allowing you to attach the plating at instant speed to the worker and hit for 6. Plating + Fling is a strong combo. Attack with a plated creature, and then fling after damage has been dealt.

Turns 2-3 are the most important for Affinity, especially with vial. By turn 2, you should be able to cast Frogmites for 0-1, play thoughtcast, or cast Ravager/Atog/Cranial Plating. By turn 3, Myr Enforcer should cost 0-3, Cranial Plating can be cast + equipped, and extra artifacts (ornithopter, chromatic star) can be turned into fuel for ravager/atog.

The optimal opening hand is something like: artifact land, vial, ornithopter. With a turn 2 arti. land, Fromgites are free and Thoughtcast costs U. Workers and Disciples are uncounterable and can be played at instant speed through vial. Two counters on vial turn three means that Atogs and Ravagers can be played through vial, and Enforcers are cheap/free.

Fighting Hate: There's plenty of strong hate for Affinity. Somethings you might face:

Pernicious Deed: Pre-sideboard, this card can kill your lands and severly stunt development. However, Fromgites and especially Myr Enfocers are out of Deed range until the late game (if your opponent is able to deed away enforcers, you've probably aleady lost anyway). If your opponent is playing B/G, hold back at least one land. Needle on Deed obviously helps immensely. If there are many deeds in your environment, consider maindecking Needles and increasing the amount of Darksteel Citadels.

Energy Flux: Arguably the best card against Affinity. If this hits play on turns 2-3, your probably done. Your best chance is to try and keep one big creature (probably Ravager) alive while saccing everything else. If your opponent is playing this, it should be the thing Therapy names.

Null Rod: This kills large portions of your deck. It does nothing against resolved Frogmites, Myr Enforcers, or Disciples however, so play agressively against decks packing Null Rod.

Blood Moon: Shuts down your articfact lands. This is difficult but not impossible to play around. If you suspect Blood Moon, hold onto Chromatic Stars for important colered spells like Thougtcast and Disciple.

Finally, (fully recognizing that this might be an inappropriate place to do so) I think that Vial Affinity should be considered a DTB. It has top 8’d in multiple large and diverse tournaments (8 or so tournaments with over 50 people) and has a reasonably well-established list.

al the great

11-03-2006, 02:49 PM

I personally agree that Affinity should be in open legacy discussion. The past few years my friends have won countless times in 20 man Legacy tourneys with affinity.

Phantom

11-03-2006, 03:17 PM

I do agree that Affinity should be in the open forum, but I think it deserves a much better write up than this. Mantle vs. Vial, Berserk vs. Fling, and Confidant vs. No Confidant all deserve a much closer look without biased personal opinions. T8 lists and advanced playtips would be nice too. Also, discussing the decks weakness to hate and potential ways to bypass these cards would be nice.

There is no way the deck belongs in the Metagame forum though. All those decks have 10+ showings over on the Historical Top 8 thread. Affinity only has 5, and only 3 came at major american events.

Bane of the Living

11-03-2006, 05:00 PM

It doesnt really matter that Affinity has 5. Its not in the LMF its in the Open Forum. I think we have enough discussion on affinity already though. Keep to an exsisting thread. It doesnt matter if 8 cards are different.

Peter_Rotten

11-03-2006, 05:31 PM

A quick search revealed in N&D one rather weak thread on an unconventional take on Affinity. I'll leave this thread open since it discusses the more popular list, but I wish we had a stornger and more developed Opening post.

Zilla

11-03-2006, 06:35 PM

I do agree that Affinity should be in the open forum, but I think it deserves a much better write up than this. Mantle vs. Vial, Berserk vs. Fling, and Confidant vs. No Confidant all deserve a much closer look without biased personal opinions.
So write about it. The thread exists for a reason, and while it may come as a surprise, that reason doesn't include discussion about whether or not this thread belongs in the Open forum.

Xero

11-03-2006, 07:25 PM

I added some more content to the opening post. Any suggestions for improving it further would be welcome.

Mantle vs. Vial, Berserk vs. Fling, and Confidant vs. No Confidant all deserve a much closer look without biased personal opinions.

I'll admit to not testing Confidant very much (not enough to write knowledgably on it, at least). As far as Vial/Mantle and Fling/Berserk go, I have tested them and discussed as much in the first post. The lack of Vial can kill you against decks with counterspells, Vial smoothes out your manabase, and it accelerate just as well as mantle does. Berserk has never been good in my experience. When does it do something Fling can't? Fling has the added benefits of not requiring you to attack, giving creature kill to a deck that has no other way of killing creatures outside of combat, and being on-color. What sort of manabase are you running with Berserk? If your playing 4c, your manabase is unstable and even more prone to hate than Affinity normally is. If you cut Blue, how does Berserk outweigh the benefits of being able to refill your hand via thoughtcast?

Zilla

11-03-2006, 11:15 PM

If you suspect Blood Moon, hold onto Chromatic Stars for important colered spells like Fling and Disciple.
Blood Moon turns your lands into Mountains. Fling is red. Just sayin'.

al the great

11-03-2006, 11:55 PM

I agree with Fling being better for this deck. Same with me my experience with Berserk has not been that great just because I end up having to trample through a bunch of random creatures (sometimes buff creatures) and fling is a great way out of that.

Berserks should be 5 bux :)

Phantom

11-04-2006, 12:54 AM

So write about it. The thread exists for a reason, and while it may come as a surprise, that reason doesn't include discussion about whether or not this thread belongs in the Open forum.

Well, I would write about it, but one, I'm not an Affinity expert, and two, I was asking him to write about it in the opening post so it would have a greater effect. I know a lot of people only look at the opening post.

As for the discussion about whether or not this thread belongs in the Legacy Metagame Forum, the only reason I brought it up was to respond to something he said in the opening post, and I feel perfectly justified in responding to pretty much anything in an opening post.

I'll admit to not testing Confidant very much (not enough to write knowledgably on it, at least). As far as Vial/Mantle and Fling/Berserk go, I have tested them and discussed as much in the first post. The lack of Vial can kill you against decks with counterspells, Vial smoothes out your manabase, and it accelerate just as well as mantle does. Berserk has never been good in my experience. When does it do something Fling can't? Fling has the added benefits of not requiring you to attack, giving creature kill to a deck that has no other way of killing creatures outside of combat, and being on-color. What sort of manabase are you running with Berserk? If your playing 4c, your manabase is unstable and even more prone to hate than Affinity normally is. If you cut Blue, how does Berserk outweigh the benefits of being able to refill your hand via thoughtcast?

Here's what I'm saying. You've tested and have your opinions, but others have tested it and came to opposite conclusions. And when the other choice has placed in big tourneys, you should at least give it some respect. Here's what I would have written:

Mantle vs. Vial: Vial helps immensely versus Aggro-Control decks like Gro and Madness, against Control decks, and as a way of surprising opponents. There’s nothing like Vialing in a disciple in response to Akroma’s Vengeance for the win. Mantle, on the other hand, smoothes out the mana-base (note that the deck only plays 14 colored spells, 7 of which are easily castable via vial). Mantle does allow for some slightly more explosive starts thanks to it's 0 cc and mana production. 1st turn frogmites and 3 mana second turn are more common.

Fling vs. Berserk: Fling allows you to win at instant speed, without attacking. Fling also allows you to kill creatures if absolutely necesseary. Kataki or Goblin Welder can kill you: fling gives Affinity a way to get rid of those creatures. Fling's weakness is that a counterspell turns it into a 2-for-1 for the opponent. Berserk's major upside is that it allows you to get around annoying chump blockers (via trample). Berserk's drawbacks are that a StP turn it into a 2-for-1 for the opponent, and that it is green, meaning running Berserk virtually guarantees that you will be cutting blue, which means no Thoughtcasts.

Confidant vs. No Confidant: Confidant is draw with a body. It works well with Vial (as Vialing in a Confidant EOT usually leads to at least one extra draw) and should certainly be considered for builds not running blue. Confidant, however, does cost you life, and you would almost have to drop the Enforcers. No Confidant is a more explosive, and perhaps less consistent build.

Bane of the Living

11-04-2006, 10:44 AM

If this affinity thread is here for this particular winning list, without Confidant, and with Thoughcast. You could argue for changes to include Confidant but that takes the deck in another direction. We have a thread for Dark Affinity, U/W Affinity (Skynet), and Berserk Affinity. This build is niether of those, lets continue discussion on this build.

I agree that Mantle vs Vial is a viable arguement because both serve separate functions in the deck. I would like to add that when playing Enforcers I've always liked the 0 drop artifacts to help get him on the table. Though Im not sure that artifact needs to be Mantle. Mantle is nice to equip onto Disciple of course but also Meddling Mage or Confidant if your playing either, since we arent Ill push another option. SillyMetalGAT has had success playing Tormods Crypt in the main. It accels your affinity and gives you a nice maindeck trump to the best deck in the format.

xsockmonkeyx

11-06-2006, 10:29 AM

I have a problem with the statement that Vial is just better than Mantle. They are both viable options and they do different things, thereby, I would reserve any value judgement without taking into consideration the meta and the pilot.

In turn, I have a problem with this thread being about Vial Affinity only. Mantle Affinity and Vial Affinity are very similar and devoting the thread to only Vial Affinity would be too narrow a discussion IMO. Its somewhat akin to the different versions of Vial Goblins (splash/mono, ports/no ports, etc.). There are many versions of that deck yet they are in the same thread b/c they are very much the same.

Xero

11-06-2006, 10:31 AM

We have a thread for Dark Affinity, U/W Affinity (Skynet), and Berserk Affinity. This build is niether of those, lets continue discussion on this build.

I don't think there is a thread for Berserk Affinity. At least, I can't find it anywhere.

Does anyone have thoughts on the deck itself? I am mainly curious about the sideboard and Chromatic Star vs. Terrarion as mana fixers.

SillyMetalGAT

11-06-2006, 10:51 AM

I don't think there is a thread for Berserk Affinity. At least, I can't find it anywhere.

Does anyone have thoughts on the deck itself? I am mainly curious about the sideboard and Chromatic Star vs. Terrarion as mana fixers.

Chromatic Star vs. Terrarion isnt even an arguement. Chromatic Star blows Terrarion out of the water. The only benefit to using Terrarion is that it nets you 2 cards as opposed to 1, but you rarely ever use it to fix mana, where Chromatic Star is much more mana efficient.

TheDarkshineKnight

11-06-2006, 02:11 PM

Just for reference:

Vial Affinity:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
3 Cranial Plating
4 Terrarion

Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
2 Ornithopter

Creatures
3 Atog
4 Disciple Of The Vault

Instants
3 Fling

Lands
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

Sorceries
4 Thoughtcast

Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

Lands
2 Glimmervoid

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Winter Orb
3 Engineered Plague

This list is essentially the combination of the two highest placing Vial Affnity builds I could find. Everything on that list was in both decks with at least that amount. Obviously, this is a good core for an Affinity deck. I do believe there are 9 maindeck and 5 sidedeck slots to fill.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mantle Affinity:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Cranial Plating
4 Paradise Mantle

Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Ornithopter

Artifact Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures
3 Atog
4 Disciple Of The Vault

Instants
3 Fling

Lands
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

Sorceries
4 Thoughtcast

Artifact Lands
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
4 Annul
2 Darkblast

This is the Mantle Affinity list that placed 3rd at the D4D.

-----------------------------------------------------------

So, looking at both lists, this seems to be the optimal core to build any Affinity deck around:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Cranial Plating

Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
2 Ornithopter

Creatures
3 Atog
4 Disciple Of The Vault

Instants
3 Fling

Lands
2 Blinkmoth Nexus

Sorceries
4 Thoughtcast

Artifact Lands
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague

Merry Christmas.

Xero

11-06-2006, 02:20 PM

Thanks.

Chromatic Star vs. Terrarion isnt even an arguement. Chromatic Star blows Terrarion out of the water. The only benefit to using Terrarion is that it nets you 2 cards as opposed to 1, but you rarely ever use it to fix mana, where Chromatic Star is much more mana efficient.

I tend to agree. Chromatic Star is great because it can be sacced to Ravager or Atog and you still get to draw a card. It even helps against mass removal. Terrarion might be better if someone wanted to add more colored cards, however.

In turn, I have a problem with this thread being about Vial Affinity only. Mantle Affinity and Vial Affinity are very similar and devoting the thread to only Vial Affinity would be too narrow a discussion IMO. Its somewhat akin to the different versions of Vial Goblins (splash/mono, ports/no ports, etc.). There are many versions of that deck yet they are in the same thread b/c they are very much the same.

I should change the name of the thread. I think that Vial is better, but feel free to discuss Mantle.

the_show

11-06-2006, 05:41 PM

SillyMetalGAT has had success playing Tormods Crypt in the main. It accels your affinity and gives you a nice maindeck trump to the best deck in the format.

I 100% AGREE with that statement. It also does sick things to Iggy Pop, Salvager, and annoys Solidarity (ie. Flash of Insight).

Anyone feel like getting a flame war started???? Fling Vs Shrapnel Blast. IMO Blast has a slight edge in that when its countered your opponent gets a 2-for-1. When Fling get countered your opponent usually gets more than a 2-for-1. The only time when this is not the case is when you have an equipped Cranial Plating. The thing I like about Shrapnel Blast is its used primarily as a reactive spell when an artifact is targeted by removal or mass removal and secondly as an offensive spell when eliminating a blocker or sending the final points of damage to the head. Fling takes a more aggressive approach by saying, "I kill you now and prey to God you don't have a counter or StP in hand". Fling probably has a higher average of damage dealt but is reliant on Ravanger, Atog, or Plating to be a real threat. Meanwhile you're staring at your opponent who has a Tundra and an island open and has just uttered the two words you don't want to hear, "In response......". My point is, they both do the job but with a different degree of risk and style.

Hanni

11-06-2006, 05:56 PM

I think Shrapnel Blast is better. It's much more reliable and consistent... you don't have to have a ton of conditions to be met in order for it to be useful. You can sac a Chromatic Star to destroy a potential blocker so that your Myr Enforcer can attack unblocked (and draw a card). You can fling the last 5 points of damage you need to the dome.

Fling can be risky sometimes and generally requires that you have either Atog, Ravager, or Cranial Plating to be good. I just like Shrapnel Blast alot better.

Bane of the Living

11-06-2006, 07:41 PM

IMO Fling is shit because now theres this thing called Slit Second and it completely pwns affinity. The all in Fling seems like a bad idea more and more. You can already go all in by saccing your board with Disciple out and swinging with one fat guy. If you do that you still have Modular to back you up, Fling basically works or you lose because it didnt.

kicks_422

11-08-2006, 08:03 AM

Split Second hasn't made a dent in Legacy yet, though...

I also think that Thoughtcast is pretty weak... It also forces you to play UBR, which gives you no Disenchant effects...

I run a Confidant build, BRg, with green for sideboard Naturalizes. I also think lack of removal hurts the deck some, so I add in a full playset of Jittes.

I don't think that speed is the way for Affinity to go, IMHO. It gets those fast, broken starts every once in a while, but what if the deck doesn't? I do miss the big fat body of an Enforcer, but drawing more Ravager food or two disciples in a row from Confidant helps make up for that.

porcupinetreeman

11-08-2006, 08:58 AM

Has anyone been testing RANCOR?

I've been using it for the last year and I find it very effective. Rancor was my psudo berserks, since I cant afford them. You almost always have one extra mana, expecially late game. I've found it very useful on ornithopters and atogs and ravagers.
Its especially good in the combo matchup's. I've had double rancor on disiple and won games.

I'd like to see what everyone else thinks

Bane of the Living

11-08-2006, 05:03 PM

I used to play Rancor in green affinity cause I only owned one Berserk. Its quite usefull. The fact that Disciples and Workers become threats is huge. A Ravager or Atog with Trample just wins games.

Ive found the most success in R/B Affinity. With vials and chrome moxes, heavy black splash with maindeck Therapies. W/U/B Affinity playing Meddling Mages is way better against combo though.

kicks_422

11-08-2006, 08:41 PM

Back when I was playing Berserk, there were often times when I wanted them to be Rancors instead...

With that said, I think Affinity should keep colored cards as creatures only. If say you run three colors, with 18 lands, your color-enablers/fixers would look like this:

4 of each colored land = 12
4 Citadels/Nexi
2 Glimmervoid
4 Chromatic Star
4 Vial

That would be 14 ways to play a colored creature (e.g. Atog; 4 Furnaces, 2 Glimmervoids, 4 Stars, 4 Vial). Running non-creature colored cards (e.g. Rancor) would mean you only have 10 ways to play it, which I'm not comfortable with, and 4 of those 10 ways are one-shot deals (Stars), so if Rancor gets back to your hand, you'll be needing to draw another source of green to play it.

I hope I'm getting through with what I'm explaining... :rolleyes:

Bane of the Living

11-08-2006, 09:10 PM

Here is my teams current build of affinity.

land 16
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel

spells 17
3 Chrome Mox
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating

creatures 27
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
3 Atog

SB 15
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Defense Grid
3 Engineered Plague
3 Shattering Spree

kicks_422

11-09-2006, 06:26 AM

Iranon

11-09-2006, 07:47 AM

16 lands in itself shouldn't be a problem, but in that case I want each and every one to be an artifact. I like

16 Artifact lands
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
2 Paradise Mantle

Manlands give a dubious benefit in the long game (often it's more efficient to sacrifice excess land to fuel an Atog or Ravager anyway) at the price of explosiveness - not good.

Glimmervoid doesn't cut it for similar reasons: if you run a tight mana base, you really need all your lands to pull double duty by increasing your artifact count. As 'half' a mana soruce, I far prefer Paradise Mantle. If you don't run more than 2, that increases both consistency and the chance for a ridiculous start.

Xero

11-09-2006, 11:55 AM

Fling vs Shrapnel Blast is a tough decision. Both have positive and negative aspects: Blast is much safer but is also one mana more. Fling is more dangerous but gives a greater pay-off: Fling allows you to kill someone at
20+ life in one shot. If yor're worried about counterspells, Blast is probably better. If your more of a gambler, Fling can be a game-winner regardless of life-totals.

I run a Confidant build, BRg, with green for sideboard Naturalizes. I also think lack of removal hurts the deck some, so I add in a full playset of Jittes.

Not having a way to deal with enchantments can hurt, but I wouldn't cut U for naturalize. Thougtcast allows you to refill your hand and keep Myr Enforcers. Plus, U can help your sideboard in Goblin heavy metagames with BEB/Hydroblasts. As for Jitte-4 mana to cast and equip seems like alot in a deck that runs as few lands as possible. How many are you running?

I don't think that speed is the way for Affinity to go, IMHO. It gets those fast, broken starts every once in a while, but what if the deck doesn't? I do miss the big fat body of an Enforcer, but drawing more Ravager food or two disciples in a row from Confidant helps make up for that.

I've found Myr Enforcer to be irreplacable against Aggro-Control decks (especially UG Madness and UGr Gro). These decks have trouble dealing with large creatures, and trading an Enforcer with a Werebear is an extremely good deal for you, since Affinity can afford to loose a creature but Gro generally can't. Confidant is a great card, but it slows the deck down. Playing Affinity slower hurts your already poor chances against combo, assuming you don't maindeck discard or something to that affect.

On Chrome Mox: with 11 things to imprint, isn't Mox played as a 0 artifact that does nothing some of the time? I'd think Lotus Petal would be better, since it is almost always useful.

16 Artifact lands
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
2 Paradise Mantle

I've never tried this. It looks good.

al the great

11-09-2006, 12:24 PM

Wait how is Blast one more mana?

Xero

11-09-2006, 03:13 PM

Oops. Well, ignore the part about costing more than. I obvioulsy need to test Blast more...

al the great

11-09-2006, 03:28 PM

I use to think Blast was bad compared to Fling now I think I'm liking Blast better after reading this thread.

Xero

11-09-2006, 03:43 PM

There both good-I've been using Fling for awhile now, but Blast can be better in certain sitiuations. If I were going to change, I think I'd run more cheap artificats however. Iranon's suggesiotn of cutting non-artifact land for Mantles seems like a good idea if you're running Blast over Fling.

kicks_422

11-09-2006, 07:37 PM

First off, here's my build:

4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid

3 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Atog
4 Dark Confidant
4 Frogmite

4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Cranial Plating

SB
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Winter Orb

Just to throw it out, this combines the two most hated cards in recent Standard formats (Ravager and Jitte)... I feel mean whenever I whip this out to play... :tongue:

Not having a way to deal with enchantments can hurt, but I wouldn't cut U for naturalize. Thougtcast allows you to refill your hand and keep Myr Enforcers. Plus, U can help your sideboard in Goblin heavy metagames with BEB/Hydroblasts. As for Jitte-4 mana to cast and equip seems like alot in a deck that runs as few lands as possible. How many are you running?

Refilling my hand wouldn't do any good if say they get a Confinement lock, a Moat, Energy Flux, etc. They're pretty random, but I wouldn't want to face them and have no answer for them.

I've also really been doing good against Goblins, save the occasional nutz draw. Jitte actually is a pretty good card, making every creature in the deck threats, which is especially good as most are rather flimsy (Disciple, Worker, and to a lesser extent Frogmite). I'd gladly pay a 4 mana investment over the course of two turns to get an active Jitte. It just wins games.

I've found Myr Enforcer to be irreplacable against Aggro-Control decks (especially UG Madness and UGr Gro). These decks have trouble dealing with large creatures, and trading an Enforcer with a Werebear is an extremely good deal for you, since Affinity can afford to loose a creature but Gro generally can't. Confidant is a great card, but it slows the deck down. Playing Affinity slower hurts your already poor chances against combo, assuming you don't maindeck discard or something to that affect.

Of course I thought of that... But aren't Atogs, Ravagers, and anything equipped with an active Jitte big enough (even bigger)? For combo MUs, I board out the Jittes and replace them with 4 Pyrostatic Pillars, them mull aggressively for them... Though I'm thinking of replacing the Winter Orbs in the SB for Therapies for more hate, as I don'r see much control anymore save Landstill.

The combo match-up is generally poor for any straight aggro deck, so why even try to race them by going for speed? I'd stick to playing the best cards available, making my aggro and control MU's much better, then devote 4-8 slots of my SB to combo... That's the point of SB's right?

Bane of the Living

11-10-2006, 09:54 AM

3 Chrome Mox in a build that plays only 11 colored cards, all of which I'd rather see in play than imprinted?... How has that been going for you? I'm also a bit uncomfortable running only 16 lands... has it proven to be enough?

On Chrome Mox: with 11 things to imprint, isn't Mox played as a 0 artifact that does nothing some of the time? I'd think Lotus Petal would be better, since it is almost always useful.

16 Lands is more than enough. If your playing more than that your missing the point. Your curve is actually lower than Thresholds and you dont have Fetches that thin land out of the deck, you just draw into them.

4 Non Artifact lands is fine. Glimmervoid is amazing with Plating and works out nicely with Chromatic Star to provide 6 sources of rainbow mana. 6 is enough for a two color build. Blinkmoth Nexus is irreplaceable. It flys, it dodges wrath, its a great modular target. Its easier to play in a two color build, another benifit of B/R affinity.

3 Chrome Mox is a push the deck has had since I played it last year in extended. You cant rely on vial to speed you up every game, and the only card in my build with 'affinity' is Frogmite. So my busted starts are usually including Chrome Mox in some manner. I would absolutely imprint Disciple to play a turn one Dark Confidant. Chrome Mox helps you drop your land count lower and mull to more aggresive hands. I know there are only 11 cards to imprint pre sideboard but you shouldnt be playing many more than that anyways or else you risk weakening the artifact combo. I know it seems bad to imprint those colored cards because theyre so good but that tempo boost goes a long way. Not to mention we all know what happens when affinity gets double black mana for plating. Chrome Mox usually sees to that.

Mox is far better than mantle in my eyes. Mantle does nothing on its own ever but give you +1 to affinity. It only accelerates you when you play it and equip it on turn one.

Enforcer is overrated. Most of you are still remembering the days of standard where he was indeed a house. Legacy has better removal, more goblins to block, and all in all Dark Confidant is SOO MUCH BETTER.

APriestOfGix

11-10-2006, 07:49 PM

i see Fling vs. Blast as this...

Fling should be in decks that run Atog ONLY, (i'ts really not that good on a ravager, as you have to gamble even MORE). And decks that see huge ammounts of creature hate shouldn't run Atog.

That said, i run a three way Affinity. good for control, aggro, combo. Myr Enforcers for Aggro (4/4's for 0 on turn 3 are bad for aggro), Fling atog for combo, (yeah), and control i run explosive mantle version.

Opterown

11-11-2006, 11:09 PM

I must say that I love this deck. I have found it to be incredibly versatile, not rolling over to targeted removal due to the incredible powers of Ravager. Cranial Plating is so powerful compared to the rest of its cycle.
I have been running this version:

4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid

4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
3 Myr Enforcer

3 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
4 Aether Vial

4 Thoughtcast
3 Shrapnel Blast

The 4-ofs are almost always there in Affinity, and the 3-ofs are there because I don’t like seeing more than 1 in a game.
I have been running Shrapnel Blast for several reasons:
Chromatic Star + Shrapnel Blast = Funkyness.
Shrapnel Blast is reactive, and for the mid-game, where I can use it in response to Gempalm Incinerators or StoP
Berserk costs wayyyy too much, and I don’t like green as a color.
Fling’s picture loses to Shrapnel Blast’s any day.

The sheer speed at which this deck wins (often a whole turn before Goblins) makes it quite a good deck.
Against Goblins, I often go around 65-35 (match result has always been 2-1 my way). One game went like this:
Mountain, lackey, Go (I almost punch the guy for his smug look)
Darksteel Citadel, Vial, Go
Piledriver, swing with lackey…. I vial in an Ornithopter and block! Ha ha, you should’ve seen his face.

Anyway, the only good legacy deck I’ve played against is Goblins, because I haven’t played in major tournaments, where the other guys come. I have some questions:
How do the other matchups for Affinity go? I’ve heard that Threshold is a very easy matchup? What should I have problems with?
What should my sideboard consist of in a normal meta? Mine is diverse (I think)
What hate am I likely to see, and what should I do to play around them? I’ve heard that not many people play Affinity at all, so should I even expect it?
Are there problems with my list? I’ve found it to be ok, but can I improve?

Bongo

11-12-2006, 06:27 AM

Xero

11-15-2006, 10:45 AM

This is a general remark:

What about using both Confidant and Thoughtcast in the same deck?

Both would help you to give you more fuel in the mid-game, which I found to be very important in keeping up the pressure

The main problem with this (and Confidant Affinity in general) is that you have no deck manipulation, so Confidant's drawback is felt more than in decks like UWB Fish. Revealing Thoughtcast would take 25% of your life total, something you don't want to do against decks like Burn or Goblins. Since you would also be running Frogmites, that's a 2/15 chance of dealing at least 4 damage to yourself a turn. Also, Confidant is a non-artifact 2/1 creatures that dies to any sort of removal.

Anyway, the only good legacy deck I’ve played against is Goblins, because I haven’t played in major tournaments, where the other guys come. I have some questions:
How do the other matchups for Affinity go? I’ve heard that Threshold is a very easy matchup? What should I have problems with?
What should my sideboard consist of in a normal meta? Mine is diverse (I think)
What hate am I likely to see, and what should I do to play around them? I’ve heard that not many people play Affinity at all, so should I even expect it?
Are there problems with my list? I’ve found it to be ok, but can I improve

Affinity has good-great match-ups against Aggro-Control (UG Madness, Fish, BW Homebrew, Gro, etc.), an approximately average match-up against Goblins, and a bad match-up against Combo (like Solidarity). W based control decks like Rifter can be tough too, but those decks are fairly rare.
Engineered Plaugue is a good sideboard card against Goblins. Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt are almost always useful. After that, you could run Sphere of Resitance, Cabal Therapy, and/or Duress for Combo or Hydroblast for Red based decks. The discard is a good idea if you expect hate; which is only a small possibility. Pernicious Deed is relatively common, but other than that, strong hate for Affinity (like Null Rod or Kataki) aren't really played. As for your list, I would cut 2 Glimmervoids and a Citadel for 2 Blinkmoth Nexus (especially since your running 4 Cranial Plating) and the last Enforcer.

Iranon

11-15-2006, 07:31 PM

I'd also like to point out that Affinity can be tweaked quite easily for your metagame:

A version that emphasises the combo-style kill and maximises its chances to win turn 3 can give anything a run for their money.
A full set of Meddling Mages and Cabal Therapies and possibly even more disruption in the board is a kick in the nads for anyone playing Combo combined with your still decent clock.
The suicidal draw suite of Dark Confidant + Thoughtcast can give many control players fits (however, play another deck if you expect too see a lot of people with Pernicious Deeds...)
When built with more muscle and less tricks, Affinity should be able to out-aggro anything else.

As long as nobody is packing dedicated hate, one build of Affinity or another should be viable in almost any environment.

Shriekmaw

11-18-2006, 08:56 PM

I figure to finally post in this thread and give you my most updated lists with a brief discussion on why I want with some key cards.

Nick's Vial Affinity:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
4 Aether Vial
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Chromatic Star
3 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
3 Cranial Plating
3 Atog
2 Pithing Needle

SB

2 Winter Orb
2 Flaring Pain
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

As you read some of my posts in the past, I've been a big advocate of the Berserk Affinity list that I've run for a long time. The more I played that list, the more I felt like Berserk didn't really good that much in a lot of my matches. So I decided on cutting green and Berserk for Thoughtcast.

I'm only running 3 thoughtcast and 3 chromatic star so I can squeeze in 2 pithing needles which I love in the main deck. I've debating on cutting the needles for the other thoughtcast and chromatic tstar, but the needles are in as of this date.

The rest of the deck is pretty standard with 19 lands, as that is the right number I feel after playing with this deck for 2 years in standard and legacy.

The sideboard is a little updated to include 4 chalice and 2 winter orb as comb o as been rising in popularity around the Legacy community. I feel those are very strong sb cards. I do miss green for naturalize in the board which I was a fan of.

Let me know what you guys think. There is so many builds of affinity that did well in big events, so its hard to argue, which build is better than the other.

magicmoron

11-28-2006, 07:02 PM

Firebrothers

11-30-2006, 09:31 PM

Ok. First off I know this is not an optimal build but I have not seen this engine discussed in any current threads.

The list:

3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Glimmervoid/(testing gemstone mine)
3 Lotus Petal/(testing chrome mox)
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 somber hoverguard
3 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
4 Cranial Plating
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

The idea is that you can drop the baubles first few turns using the affinity build up drop a dov sac away for the damage refilling your hand. The baubles also have synergy with the cabal therapies. My testing has been limited since the bauble is new and I have only one tourney a week. Flame on!

The magic moron

How muc help are the therapy's? Is the disruption that much needed or would it be better to throw another threat in there like arcbound workers or something like that? I just started testing with affinity and im not sure which way i should go with it, balls to the wall with tons of creatures and little disruption or with therapy, duress or erayo or something like that.

Ohh and BTW 3 thoughtcast? You should definatly play 4. I hear that one blue for 2 cards is some kinda good.

Shriekmaw

11-30-2006, 09:39 PM

I believe your deck can come out of the gates a lot faster with more zero drop artifacts, but I just love Aether Vial in the deck with the presence of control around in the Legacy Metagame.

I've tried just about every build in Legacy of Ravager Affinity. I just like Aether Vial a lot and it does add to speed in the deck quite a bit. It may not seem like much in the early turns, but it sets up turns down the road which can be just amazing with a lot of combat tricks that you can pull of with Vial.

The only slot I might change in my build is cutting the 2 needles for the 4th thoughtcast and the 4th chromatic star.

I don't believe Chrome Mox is a good option based on the fact that you have to run more colored cards in order to make it effective. The color count should be around 8-12 as you probably know if you read some of my early posts on the subject.

The only matchup which I fear is combo, which I set up the sideboard to have a better game against. I'm usually pretty happy with the other matchups. Another card to consider is tormod's crypt main deck, but not entirely sure yet.

Let me know what you think and thanks for reading.

magicmoron

12-01-2006, 01:49 PM

@ Firebrothers: Therapies are there for combo mainly, they have great synergy with the baubles since you will be seeing cards in there hand and what they will be top decking. As far as replacing them for worker's, I didn't include them since I really only have the ravagers to eat artifacts and they are pretty vanilla creatures otherwise. The therapies could be considered a sac outlet, however, this is a very limited outlet.

As far as thoughtcast is concerned. You are absolutely right it is very powerful to draw 2 cards for 1 blue, however, I feel that the extra cranial hat is more important since my combo outlet has been diminished via lack of atog. I do feel the deck has more resilency utilizing only two colors. I feel that duress is suboptimal to therapy in this case due to all of the bauble hand peeks. Duress is also practically useless against goblins which is bad news considering the popularity of the deck. Also, therapy is never dead since you can sac an artifact creature with DOV out to do some damage no matter how minimal. I have tried erayo builds but everytime I had erayo I simply wished it was a somber hoverguard. But it is possible that I am not a good enough player to flip erayo effeciently. I simply found that erayo was a controlling feature that I was either holding alot in my hand to flip erayo or he was just a dead draw.

Bane of the Living

12-02-2006, 09:39 AM

1) If your not playing Atog you need 4 platings.
2) Chrome Mox is highly playable in the deck within 10-12 colored cards.
3) Tormod's Crypt > Bauble

Id be interested in testing that list. It looks interesting, but lack of tog scares me at first. Maybe the beefy affinity guys make up for it. Has anyone given Qumulox a try? You probably need Terrarion for the UU.

magicmoron

12-02-2006, 06:28 PM

@ bane of the living:

Your right about chrome mox being better than lotus petal. After testing petal goes away to fast and mox sticks around for a 1/2 mana if not imprinted (this is what I consider artifacts in an affinity deck). I did like the lotus petal acceleration of 2 mana essentially in one turn (declare spell, affinity casting cost set, then pop petal for mana), however, you also lose alot of tempo mid game due to the loss of the petal.

I by no means am grand standing to say this is the most optimal list, I simply wanted to throw something new out there for a deck that seems like the development has stalled. The reason for the exclusion of Atog is a stronger mana base. I also feel that Atog is a risky combo outlet since they can kill dov or atog in response leaving you with an empty field. At least with ravager you can sac in response to himself and shoot the modular token to another creature. These were my two biggest problems with the traditional style deck and this is an attempt at lessening them.

The crypt VS. bauble thing. I don't know. I do believe it is best to build against the top 3 decks. Thresh being one of those IMHO, however, I see it as a dead card against almost any other deck with the exception of 43-land and some reanimator decks. Perhaps you have better testing could you explain your reasoning further?

As far as quomolux, I feel the UU is prohibitive but may improve with the replacement of lotus petal with chrome mox. But I don't like the idea of adding the terrarion for mana smoothing since it would be replacing a bauble slot most likely. The bauble if feel is stronger since it helps with the therapies which is the way the deck stops combo (besides racing). I also feel late game it is better to see an opponents card and draw a card for free than to simply gain a colored mana and draw a card for a 3 mana investment and a 1/2 turn (comes into play tapped, but you get the card from the bauble on your opponents upkeep).

As a side note in testing, I have found that the therapies help alot in the goblin matchup. The baubles help let u know when to call for SGC/sharpshooter/kikki (to stop them from comboing out) or simply ringleader (to stop them from gaining a massive creature advantage). Therapies do improve the matchup infinitely IMHO and I consider them far more advantagous to mana leak or shrap blast.

The Magic Moron

Shriekmaw

12-07-2006, 01:29 PM

1) If your not playing Atog you need 4 platings.
2) Chrome Mox is highly playable in the deck within 10-12 colored cards.
3) Tormod's Crypt > Bauble

I'm a big fan of Atog in the deck as of 2 or 3 of. I'm just not a fan of Chrome Mox because its card disadvantage. Everything in the deck comes into play real fast and I don't like losing cards in a deck that needs to play as many cards as possible to ultitize Arbound Ravager, Atog, Disciple, and Cranial Plating to their fullest power.

Crypt is a good sb board, but not maindeck. I don't think we should waste time even talking about bauble, it is just awful in the deck.

Bongo

12-08-2006, 05:43 AM

Shriekmaw

12-08-2006, 12:15 PM

Bane of the Living

12-09-2006, 09:23 AM

I got some questions concerning the sideboard.

Against Goblins, I often couldn't resolve Plague because of Wastelands and Ports. Wouldn't Pithing Needle be better since it is a lot easier to cast and helps with Affinity? It also has uses besides the Goblin matchup.

Also, what is the Flaring Pain in nickrit's sb for? Wouldn't the 4th Crypt and the 3rd Winter Orb be better?

Plague really isnt the best answer against them because of its restrictive casting cost. I prefer both needles and Jitte, something of much more value. You cant really treat it like a 4 drop in the deck though, and need to rely on the tempo of frogmites or vial to get a creature into play for the turn 3 equip and swing. Still, it's more reliable against gobs while retaining the artifact roll.

Flaring Pain sucks ass and should never be in any legacy sb. I've seen it played in a couple sbs before yet I think nick over values its use. Unless of course there's an abundance of Spore Frogs in syracuse. Still you have your combo finish via disciple. It doesnt work against CAL since they cant be targeted, its not that damage is prevented.

In my build of affinity I can afford CA loss from Mox thanks to Dark Confidant. He completely makes up for it. Playing Thoughcast can catch you up on the loss as well but isnt as busted as turn one bob in affinity. Crypt I really like maindeck as a 2 of dispite possible deadness. Its like having Swords to Plowshares in a deck when playing against Solidarity. No biggy. The advantages of having it against Iggy Pop, Threshold, Reanimator, Loam, Survival (damn spore frogs!), Solidarity, Salvagers, are great. Here's my recent list.

16 mana
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid

17 spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
2 Tormods Crypt
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating

27 creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
3 Atog

sb
2 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawas Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

I play a version with only 16 lands and a retardedly low curve. No Enforcers, but its worth it for bob. This version puts up the best numbers for me as far as legacy affinity. It still has a clunky gob matchup, especially if theyre running it with 4 Tinkerer's but it gets better after you sideboard.

Bongo

12-09-2006, 02:28 PM

I'm not a huge fan of Chrome Mox because this deck desperately needs every one of its cards, I don't want to pitch Disciple/Confidant/Thoughtcast.

What does everybody think of Mask of Memory in Affinity?

In my testing, the main problem I encountered was the lack of ways to refill my hand. In the mid-game, I often ran out of gas because there was no way besides Thoughtcast to refill. I really missed something like Ringleader in Goblins.

My earlier suggestion of both Confidant and Thoughtcast yielded some good results, but do have the disadvantage that you can't run Enforcer anymore.
Since Skullclamp is banned, the closest thing I could find was Mask of Memory. Thoughts?

Iranon

12-09-2006, 03:36 PM

...if you even have coloured cards to pitch. I hate them as well. By far the best way to accelerate your early play is to run no non-artifact lands and a few more 0-cost Artifacts. I personally prefer Paradise Mantle for improved consistency, but if your meta warrants it you can get away with Tormod's Crypt instead.

Mask of Memory is questionable - same costs as Cranial Plating, the creature needs to actually connect for it to be useful, and if something with a Plating gets through things are looking good anyway.

***

I agree with Bane on that you can get away with considerably fewer lands than most people play; personally I prefer Myr Enforcer over Dark Confidant though. I'm rather happy with the following list:

16 Lands
4 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

27 Creatures
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Atog
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

17 Spells
2 Paradise Mantle
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
3 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Meddling Mage
3 Winter Orb

Notes:
There is no sideboarding against Goblins, it seemed a waste of space. Not that the match-up is overwhelmingly positive; I'd say it's even to slightly favoured. The available choices are just not worth deviating from our own game plan; powering out Myr Enforcers with remarkable speed and consistency works better than dedicated hate. I hate having my sideboard tech in hand and being one artifact short of going nuts turn 2.

Threshold is favourable even without the Crypts, the disruption in the sideboard takes adequately care of most combo match-ups (I don't care much for facing Spring Tide though).

Shriekmaw

12-10-2006, 12:56 AM

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Meddling Mage
3 Winter Orb

I don't think this is the most optimal sideboard for the deck. I have cut Flaring Pain, so everyone can relax on that card. I think plague is very necessary in a format where you see goblins just about everywhere. Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to get it into play, but it still makes them play more conservative knowing that you might play it against them. Sideboarding Pithing Needle against Goblins helps, b/c then they can mess with your lands via wasteland and rishardan port.

Combo is by far your worse matchup and the best answer I have found is chalice of the void, and some sphere of resistance or winter orbs. I think the sphere helps a little more, because solidarity and iggy pop are the main combo decks around.

Therapy is another good anti-combo card, but I don't find any room in my current sideboard for it.

2 Winter Orb/Sphere of Resistance
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

Bongo

12-10-2006, 06:14 AM

Maybe my playstyle is a lot different from yours, but I think you need a backup plan in case your initial assault gets stopped and to keep up the pressure in the mid-game.
I think Goblins are such a good deck because they have the ability to refill with Ringleader. My backup plan to refill is this:

4 Glimmervoid
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers
2 Lotus Petal

4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple Of The Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Dark Confidant
4 Frogmite
3 Atog

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Shrapnel Blast

The Confidant damage surprisingly doesn't matter as much as I thought initially. No Chromatic Star here because I want to cast more powerful things with my mana. Shrapnel Blast has been pure gold. Lotus Petal allows for some quick starts and Turn 1 Confidant, and smoothing your mana.

troopatroop

12-10-2006, 10:15 AM

Cutting Chromatic Sphere = Bads. That's like cutting lands or playing 61 cards.

Bongo

12-10-2006, 11:29 AM

Cutting Chromatic Sphere = Bads. That's like cutting lands or playing 61 cards.

Why?

Explanation please.

Chromatic Star only replaces itself, Confidant actually draws you cards.

Iranon

12-10-2006, 12:37 PM

@ Nickrit: Point taken. I am aware that sideboard construction is not something I am very good at, and the feedback was very helpful. I shied away from Chalice because I feared it would affect me too much despite the Vials but I will definitely try it. Considering how much they can cripple combo, it should be worth it... and it helps me to keep my artifact count up.

4 Therapy -> 4 Chalice
1 Winter Orb, 1 Meddling Mage -> 2 Pithing Needle

***

@ Bongo: I'm not sure Chromatic Star is a must in a version running Confidant rather than Enforcer because generic and expendable artifacts lose some of their appeal when you don't need a high Affinity count that badly.

Given you run a sizable amount of Atogs and Platings, what is your reason for using Shrapnel Blast over Fling?
I can see running a split because Fling is not always good in multiples, but running only Blast seems suboptimal given the ridiculous plays Fling enables.

xsockmonkeyx

12-10-2006, 12:47 PM

What does everybody think of Mask of Memory in Affinity?

The Mask could be decent if you have a way to consistantly connect with your opponant. If you took Arcbound Worker and replaced them with roterothopter(shitty 1 mana ornithopter) then your equipment becomes more relevant. I run them in my build to make plating, ravager more of a force.

jamest

12-10-2006, 04:51 PM

@Bongo - I think your build might have too many non-artifact cards (22). The power of the deck relies on having a high concentration of artifacts. Like others have said, I would try to fit in Chromatic Star, because it complements your strongest threats like Ravager, Atog, and Disciple.

Maybe something like +3 Chromatic Star, -3 Shrapnel Blast.

mightymo06

12-11-2006, 02:05 PM

What does everybody think of Mask of Memory in Affinity?

In my testing, the main problem I encountered was the lack of ways to refill my hand. In the mid-game, I often ran out of gas because there was no way besides Thoughtcast to refill. I really missed something like Ringleader in Goblins.

I´ve been running with Mask of Memory for a while and it really slowed the deck down, maybe it´s because i run a very aggresive version (no vial or keeper, so i´m a sucker against control). (You should try Fecundity as draw engine, you can often escape the opponent drawing cards because you have flying or move counters around)

This is my build, i usually play aggro and combo deck so i really don´t know how bad it plays against control, but it can really explode. As you can see i use greater good as draw engine it kind of fixes the 'eat' half the table, get a plowshares, innocent blood etc.

4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmites
4 Atog
3 Phyrexian Walker
3 Phyrexian Soulgorger
2 Ravager

2 Crop rotation
2 Regrowth
2 Reckless Charge
4 Berserk

4 Cranial Plating
4 Greater Good
4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tombs
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Taiga

I find that the biggest problem with ravager decks in general is that ít has synergi and anti-synergi at the same time, its kind of either atog, ravager or cranial plating; they don´t go well together. I´ve been trying to think out of the box lately because the 2 standard versions of ravager doesn´t seem to move anywhere.
I´ve been wondering if anyone has used the affinity side with greater effect then casting a frogmite for 0-2 mana, like using it with food chain. Or maybe pushed the mana limit up one notch giving access to other modular creatures and counter tricks.

Bane of the Living

12-11-2006, 08:16 PM

I find that the biggest problem with ravager decks in general is that ít has synergi and anti-synergi at the same time, its kind of either atog, ravager or cranial plating; they don´t go well together. I´ve been trying to think out of the box lately because the 2 standard versions of ravager doesn´t seem to move anywhere.

Thats because you've loaded your deck with a bunch of anti synergi. You have 4 casting cost enchantments in your deck for reach rather than 2 mana burn or 1 mana card draw.

@Bongo
You need more artifacts and probably the chromatic stars since your playing 3 colors. It sucks to stare at the Confidant in your hand for 3 turns. Besides shrap and star = awsome.

Shriekmaw

12-11-2006, 09:27 PM

4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmites
4 Atog
3 Phyrexian Walker
3 Phyrexian Soulgorger
2 Ravager

2 Crop rotation
2 Regrowth
2 Reckless Charge
4 Berserk

4 Cranial Plating
4 Greater Good
4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tombs
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Taiga

This may be one of the worse decks that I've seen using the "affinity" shell. I would suggest build affinity or don't, try not to mix up different deck ideas into one. I simple can't comment on this deck because it looks so bad. Sorry Guys.

Lego

12-12-2006, 01:22 AM

Whatever happened to the good old, no nonsense, kick ass Ravager decks? Why did people stop playing them? To me, Affinity is essentially a metagame deck. It will do well in any meta in which people aren't prepared. As soon as people start busting out the Pernicious Deeds and wishing for Meltdown you're screwed.

I figure the deck should just be all about blinding speed. I like to play Shrapnel Blast or Fling, I love Atog (especially with Fling) and when I really feel like trying to dodge artifact hate, I bust out the Somber Hoverguard. Maybe someone should bring back the old 4 Ornithopter, 4 Paradise Mantle, Qumulox Affinity from days gone by. Okay, okay, I'm just joking. Although really, if we're going to play Broodstar, Qumulox shouldn't be far behind... *muse* Ok, I'm done now. Move along.

Bongo

12-12-2006, 07:44 AM

2 Glimmervoid
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple Of The Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Dark Confidant
4 Frogmite
3 Atog

4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Chromatic Star

Although I miss Shrapnel Blast, the current configuration has been very good in testing. Confidant/Thoughtcast/Chromatic really help in the card drawing departement.
Although 17 lands might seem dangerous, I didn't have major problems yet. What are your experiences with the Affinity manabase?

HdH_Cthulhu

12-12-2006, 08:48 AM

Isnt it a problem to lose so much life with Bob?

You play Toughtcast and Frogmite...

Iranon

12-12-2006, 09:48 AM

The life loss from those two is not prohibitive on its own. Between that, the loss of Myr Enforcer (it's generally agreed that risking a hit for 7 is too much) and not helping explosive starts, he isn't an auto-include despite his undoubtable power.

Personally, I hate him in any version that can still call itself Aggro without flinching.

keys

12-12-2006, 12:48 PM

Bane of the Living

12-20-2006, 04:27 PM

If your playing Thoughcast for reach then I agree Shrap should be what stayed. Blue can go. Shrap blast gives you some arms against removal. Its amazing, to sac the target of an stp and deal 5 damage. With star you draw a card while dealing 5. It helps give you the combo finish with disciple, and if you see shrap x2 your really in good shape.

Besides isnt it always nice to cut a color? If your worried about your 17 land mana base then make yourself less reliant on colored needs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok I took this list to a tourny sunday.

17 mana
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid

16 spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
2 Shrapnal Blast
2 Chrome Mox

27 creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
3 Atog

sb
2 REB
2 Shrap Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
3 Engineered Plague
3 Winter Orb

We got to the tourny late, they waited for us and called pairings as soon as we walked in. I grabbed a last minute sideboard and sat across the table from my first opponent. Tivadar.

Round One Angel Stompy
I know this will be bad thanks to swords and parralax waves. I drop vial and thopter, then bob. He plays brainstorm and silver knight. I get cranial plating, equip to thopter and win quickly while bob just draws.
Game 2 I bring in 2 Shattering Sprees for his equipment and needles, and shrap blast. I open with vial and bob and he keeps it at home with silver knight again and also needle. He gets parrallax wave turn 4 just as I flood the table with rav, workers, and dotv. I let him put my team on hold while I shrap a serendib and shattering spree some equipment. He finally dies when waves run out.
We play a third game for fun and I beat him again, at least in that game he had a stp for bob. Not dealing with confidant = gg.

Round Two
Chris playing Clerics
I know he has something like Nullrod in his deck because he plays an e tutor toolbox. He sees the turn one vial, turn two bob, vial worker, frog. turn 3 plating, win. Game 2 I side in e plague for clerics and drop it on him turn 3 before he equips a pro creature dude with emperial plate. he did a whole lot of nothing both games with scroll rack and eventually got a nevs disc to come down. I attack and he sacs it. It leaves me with a Glimmervoid and Citadel, I drop my vault, as a land for the turn and play bob and dotv. next turn I play dotv and rav. win.

Round Three
Al? Madness
He's playing what looks like changs build with moments peace instead of stifle, which is good for me. I dont care about peace so much with dotv combo winning craziness. Vial is huge in this match and I get it every game. He never deals with resolved confidants and it costs him the games. Game one I get vial and thopter and bob, he gets mongrel, eventually gets a wally and roar. he counters something important such as plating. I get another one but die when I run out of steam and because he has wonder.. Frog kinda sucks against wonder dog and wally. Game three I bring down the hammer with Winter Orb. He eventually smashes is with the Naturalize that has Convoke. Which was pretty fuckin techy against Winter Orb. I drop another one a turn later and kill him shortly after. Game three goes pretty much the same. Winter Orb is a face smasher.

Round 4 Rakdos?
We draw in.

Round 5 Solidarity
This is a close one. He's on the play. I resolve vial, he remands bob, I drop a frog, rav, and a thopter and plating, equip kick ass. He misses a land drop but attemps to combo when lethal is on the table. I respond to his tapped out Reset on the stack by vialing in disciple and putting lethal on the stack again.
At the beginning of game 2 he tells me he's sorry he took his Rebuild out. I laugh because this is the third person to tell me they took out Hurkyls Recall or Nullrod or something. He's on the play, I have a hand of 2 nexus, 3 confidant, 2 needle. I keep, what the hell I think, this is the worst hand Ive had today. I draw into vault and ply it with vial. I vial out a drawn worker, and drop bob, I go for turn 4 lethal and he starts to combo out. I patiently watch him wish for stroke of genious. He must not play Meditate in the board. He strokes for 6 with 4 mana floating and keeps comboing. He mills me for 21 storm then himself for a bunch to find flash. he flashes for his entire deck and cant find a cunning wish to wish for stroke. He milled the only 2 left in the deck. I get my lethal combat damage.

Round 6
James playing U/G/w/r thresh
I go into this matchup feeling pretty good. Angel of Despair brought the same deck except he's playing Wastelands instead of Needles. Hes on the play and drops turn one fetchland. I play vial and get it dazed, I play another one and he FoW's it. I drop a worker. He plays a werebear. I play x2 frogmite and plating, equip plating to thopter and swing for a chunk of his life. He plays enforcer after dropping he to 12. He burns some guys and Im left with only a couple dudes and plating. It goes the distance and takes the enforcer down with nexus and friends as hat racks. He cant deal with bobs card drawing awsomeness. He plays another Enforcer and blocks against a 13/7 Ravager. He dies to it next turn. Game 2 goes kinda the same but I throw 2 Tormods Crypts at him to make things not even close.

I win and take home a Godless Shrine and Hallowed Fountain for type 2 goodies. Not bad at all, good meta call. Dark Confidant really won me all my games and I dont think the life loss was more than 5 in any game.

umbowta

12-21-2006, 10:38 AM

Congrats on the win, Bane. I especially like the fact that your not running blue. Along those lines, I'm almost certain that Glimmervoid should be Badlands.

Shriekmaw

12-21-2006, 01:22 PM

Congradulations on the win with Vial Affinity. I definetely like dark confidant in the deck, but I prefer running thoughtcasts in its place instead. My main reason for running thoughtcast is because you get 2 cards right now for 1 mana which is really good in Affinity. I'm always a fan of Myr Enforcer which really shines in the Goblins matchup, since its pretty hard for them to kill.

Affinity is a really good archetype in Legacy where there is not one exact best build. I've seen so many different lists make top 8's which I think shows more about the deck and its power than any other deck I've seen in the Legacy Metagame.

Breakdown of matchups:

Gro (80/20) - I have never lost to Gro and you just shouldn't
Madness (70/30) - Another great matchup which you shouldn't lose
Goblins (50/50) - Even Spilt, advantage goes to affinity after board
Solidarity (45/55) - Combo is tough, plus sb rebuild which is pretty bad
Iggy Pop (20/80) - Very bad matchup, probably your worse

There are many other decks in the environment, but in generally you have very good against aggro and control decks, with only combo as a real worry. That is why I focus my board on the combo matchups.

Xero

12-21-2006, 02:17 PM

Round One Angel Stompy
I know this will be bad thanks to swords and parralax waves.
Hmm... I've always found AS to be a good/even match-up, depening on main deck Disenchant or not. Affinity gets out creatues quicker, the pro-red guys aren't so hot, etc. If yout play it, Myr Enforcer is great against them, since it is bigger than everything except Angel. It's also great against Gro, since trading a Werebear for Enforcer is a loss for them.
Congrats on the win.

Along those lines, I'm almost certain that Glimmervoid should be Badlands.
Agreed.

kicks_422

12-21-2006, 06:29 PM

Bane of the Living

12-22-2006, 04:55 PM

Have you ever missed Naturalize effects out of the SB when you're running straight BR? My build uses only BR MD, just a few cards off your build, but I have Tree of Tales and Krosan Grips in the SB, and I've really found them useful.

NO. I dont like disenchant effects because theyre reactive. The only reactive spell I like in the deck is Shrapnal Blast, beacuse it reacts by taking out a quarter of your opponents life. If I had my sideboard ready ahead of time it would've looked like this..

3 Winter Orb
3 Jitte
3 Shattering Spree
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sudden Shock

Altho I said I dont like Naturalize Shattering Spree is a must against Vial, Needle, Jitte, and Null Rod. There arent any enchantments I care about, no one plays Confinement and if they did theres DotV.

Very good point on the Glimmervoids, too bad I only own 1 Badland.

Drop Enforcers, just play Shrap Blast and bob. Test my list and see the way. This is the future of the evil machine.

My next step is to incorperate maindeck Chrome Mox and possibly Therapies over Shrap or a 2/2 split.

Bongo

12-25-2006, 08:50 AM

@Bongo: How would you rate replacing the Thoughtcast with Shrapnel Blast/Skeletal Scrying/Night's Whisper, thereby running straight Black/Red, and eliminating the threat of Confidant revealing 5 dmg?

There is no consensus on this matter. As you can see with Bane's version, a BR version can do very well. I wouldn't run Skeletal Scrying though.
I chose to run the UBR version because the risk of revealing Thoughtcast/Frogmite is worth the additional card-drawing you get. Besides, the average mana cost of the deck is still low enough. With enough card drawing, Affinity can bounce back from seemingly impossible situations, kinda like Ringleader in Goblins.

I don't like Enforcer. There are two reasons for this. One, you can't run Confidant. Two, Enforcer doesn't help you to quick-start your aggression, it mostly comes online on turn 3-5, which is quite late for Affinity.
I'd rather have additional card-drawing instead of a conditional fattie.

Shriekmaw

12-26-2006, 10:43 PM

I don't like Enforcer. There are two reasons for this. One, you can't run Confidant. Two, Enforcer doesn't help you to quick-start your aggression, it mostly comes online on turn 3-5, which is quite late for Affinity.
I'd rather have additional card-drawing instead of a conditional fattie.

Myr Enforcer is one of your best creatures in the deck. It comes down to getting free 4/4's which is very good. Myr Enforcer presents a big problem for Gro and Goblins as it is very tough to deal with. I found that Chromatic Star and Thoughtcast is more than enough draw engine in the deck. I almost rather have Myr Enforcer on the table than Dark Confidant because Myr Enforcer helps end games a lot quicker which is the goal of affinity to begin with.

Xero

12-27-2006, 03:08 PM

Bane of the Living

12-27-2006, 04:49 PM

Plus, Myr Enforcer can end games. Gro (especially the Red version) can't deal with multiple 4/4s. If you can get two (or more) out early in the game, its pretty much over. Dark Confidant is not an artifact, is a 2/1, and forces generaly forces you to run sub-optimal cards that have a lower mana cost. Affinity has no deck manipulation and no Stifle, so Confidant can kill you. You also generally don't want to draw multiple Confidants, while multiple Enforcers are almost always usefull. I'd much rather draw three Enforcers in a row than three Confidants.

Myr Enforcer is one of your best creatures in the deck. It comes down to getting free 4/4's which is very good. Myr Enforcer presents a big problem for Gro and Goblins as it is very tough to deal with. I found that Chromatic Star and Thoughtcast is more than enough draw engine in the deck. I almost rather have Myr Enforcer on the table than Dark Confidant because Myr Enforcer helps end games a lot quicker which is the goal of affinity to begin with.

In that tournament I never lost more than 5 life in any given game. Some of those games included having 2 Confidants on the table for more than a couple turns. Your curve is severly low. Look at mine.

0cc-23
1cc-16
2cc-17
4cc-4

I see Bongo's point, you certainly can get away with Thoughcast too, but I personally see Shrapnal Blast as better reach. Casting an instant that takes the target of Swords to Plowshares or Gempalm Incinerator and ripping a 1/4 of your opponents life away is a great way to end the game without needing the combat step. Very important against decks running shit like Humility and such.

Myr Enforcer is nice but doesnt really come out until turn 3 unless you get the god hand of x2 Frog. Or unless your running a sub optimal shit ton of 0 mana artifacts main. He doesnt have evasion and Confidant is simply BETTER. I think you could argue the Confidant vs. Enforcer based off your meta though. Confidant is much worse against a gob or burn heavy meta. He's better against thresh/stompy type meta.

Xero

12-27-2006, 10:14 PM

Confidant is much worse against a gob or burn heavy meta. Enforcer is better against thresh/stompy type meta.

So...you're admitting that Enforcer is better against the two most heaviliy played decks? :confused:

no one plays Confinement and if they did theres DotV.
DotV dosen't work against Confinement, since Confinement reads: "you can't be the target of spells or abilities," and Disiple's ability is targeted.

Bane of the Living

12-29-2006, 04:00 PM

No I just cant type right. I was thinking of Worship. Oh well I still dont think you'd have a problem racing Confinement.

Bongo

12-29-2006, 05:38 PM

Dark Confidant is not an artifact, is a 2/1, and forces generaly forces you to run sub-optimal cards that have a lower mana cost.

I disagree with this statement. Enforcer is the only card you can't run with Confidant. Confidant also makes your Vials at two that much better.

While it is true that Enforcer may help to end games faster, it is a "one-shot", that is, if it gets handled, you are left with your pants down.
Unchecked Confidant provides you with a stream of fresh cards and allows you to "overrun" decks with massive card-advantage. It's like a wave that keeps getting bigger, whereas Enforcer is a one-shot big wave.

264505

12-29-2006, 10:37 PM

What would your (aimed at everyone) sideboard look like in a diverse meta with equal representation of the big three?

Bane of the Living

12-30-2006, 11:09 AM

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Jitte
0-3 Winter Orb

Winter Orb is good in metas with mid range control decks like Wombat, Rifter, Truffle Shuffle, Landstill, and Madness. Include it if you see alot of those.

Spree is necessary against Null Rod, Jitte, and Vial. Spree has actually won me games where I had DotV out with no sac engine. Killing one of my opponents artifacts and like 2 of my own just to ekk in that life loss.

Needle fits so well in affinity it should always be in your sideboard. Bring it in against gobs and decks with equipment. Survival obviously.

Therapy is really made for affinity since you can 2 for 1 your opponent on the first turn, (play and sac thopter) or just replace the power of worker with modular.

I like to keep a couple Jitte in the board to bring in against decks with big creatures like the Stompy decks, against decks with their own Jitte, and in any matchups where I think Ill need the life gain. It also helps against gobs. Heres what I sb like..

Gobs
In- 2 Jitte, 3 Pithing Needle
Out- 2 Vial, 1 Thopter, 2 Plating

Putting Needle on Vial is fine even since you play one because gobs gains much more tempo via matron and ringleader. You can easily cast your one and two drops without vial.

Thresh
In- 3 Crypt
Out- 3 Worker

This matchup is amazing, incase you didnt know that. I rarely feel the need to bring in Therapy but if you suspect nasty hate like Null Rod make sure and bring it in. Shit like Worship doesnt work like I already mentioned, thank you dotv. Engineered Explorsives is pretty suckey but as long as your not setting yourself up for it you should be ok. Consider needle if they have a bunch.

Solidarity
In- 4 Therapy
Out- ?

I dont really know what to side out against them, normally Id say workers since hes the weakest link, but you want all your cheap guys with Therapy. Consider taking out Vial because the game shouldnt go long enough were vial matters at all. I might be against that however since I've vialed in DotV for mid comboing death to my opponent. Take out what you feel comfortable with.

FallenOmnipotent

01-04-2007, 11:54 PM

Do you feel your black varient has a better Gobs match-up than the classical one (with Myr Enforcers)?

I'm begining my testing of your varient and sometimes feel a lack of beef (missing Enforcer) but that's obviously not an option wiht Confidant.

Bane of the Living

01-05-2007, 06:47 PM

Goblins really pushes the affinity of seven on enforcer. Gempalm and StP take out artifact creatures and so does blocking lackey/pile. Wastelands take out 2 counts of affinity, the lands supertype and the mana it would produce. Thus they come out too late for my liking. It only gets worse when they bring in Shattering Spree.

At this rate he isnt the super speed ball he should be and a lame 4/4 with no evasion is nothing to goblins, thats why they steamroll through Werebears all day.

Ill take my Confidants over Enforcers all day long.

Ive been playing Thoughtcast instead of Shrap blast, Im not sure how I feel about it yet but so far I really miss being able to win with Disciple and Shrap to the face, avoiding combat. It made the deck more combo geared for victory. Having my thoughtcast REB'd is pretty shitty too.

Kadaj

01-05-2007, 07:08 PM

I really don't know why everyone seems so adverse to running Myr Enforcer with Dark Confidant in the deck. Yes, taking 7 to the face hurts. Is it a good idea to be running 4 in the deck if you run Confidant? Probably not. However, I tested a build with Confidant, Thoughtcast, and Myr Enforcer all MD (only 3 Enforcers) and never had any problems with the lifeloss and I felt as though the deck was much more resilient because of its ability to draw a ton of cards and still beat face.

Although, I honestly don't like Confidant in this deck. Heck, I don't like Confidant in Legacy aggro period. I don't think I've ever kept him around long enough to help me at all, he doesn't beat face particularly well, and the excuse of having him suck up removal away from other targets doesn't really cut it because it's often removal that would've otherwise been dead (random crap like Lightning Bolt, which is generally bad against Ravager, Lava Dart (not that I've seen that all that often, but it did come up a few times) and weaker Incinerators).

This is my personal preference, and it probably isn't a horrible idea to run Confidant in this deck, I just think with the metagame geared around dealing with Goblin Lackey and other smaller creatures that Confidant is very vulnerable and doesn't really further your aggro plan.

Bane of the Living

01-05-2007, 07:19 PM

Theres no way your playing a deck with 4 Confidants, 4 Frogmite, 4 Thoughtcast, and 3 Enforcers, and staying happy with it. Ive tried, and its retarded. Your either the biggest lucksack on the thread or your Confidants just arent living at all. If your meta takes out one toughness dudes too easily, (burn) then dont play him, but dont exclaim that he shouldnt make the cut. He's clearly mvp. It is true that whatever hate he eats up your aggro team wont be hit by and vise versa. Ive been in alot of situations where I swing team and my opponent spot removals the dude with plating or tog or rav, then I play Confidant and they're left with something else to answer or die regardless of his attack phase. Sending Confidant into the red zone has shown worth its weight in gold when the opponent wants him dead so bad. They'll block him instead of the monster wearing a plating, then I shrap and they die. Sometimes they'll block him over TOG!! Im sorry if you have a meta unsuited for him but try him again when you see a lack or red mana.

markdirt

01-06-2007, 07:16 PM

I agree, Confidant does not work well with Myr Enforcer. However, I recognize that Enforcer VS Confindant oftentimes depends on the situation. Here's the version that I played last night.

...

Land (23)

1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Brass
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers

Creatures (27)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Atog
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite

Other (16)

1 Paradise Mantle
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
3 Fling

SB

1 Fling
2 Shrapnel Blast
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scrabling Claws
4 Welding Jar
4 Myr Enforcer

...

Yes, I know the SB is a big pile, but I didn't have one pre-tournament. I just grabbed a big stack of cards and threw something together. No SS actually cost me games. Myr Enforcer was the only intentional card here. My actual SB has Myr Enforcer, Winter Orb, SS, Tormod's Crypt, etc.

Dark Confidant VS Myr Enforcer

Like I said, they're situation appropriate. I side out my Confidants for Enforcers against Goblins. Usually they just burn Confidant or let it drain me of life. Enforcer is a huge body that comes out early and is difficult to deal with. However, Confidant wins me a lot of games. As long as the opponent isn't too agressive, they MUST kill Confidant. Not destroying it means my card supply doubles and they die.

Fling VS Shrapnel Blast

This is another interesting choice since I want them both at different times. Against aggro, Fling = I win. However, I'm reluctant to use it against control. It's risky to sac a bunch of artifacts only to have your spell Force of Willed. Then again, 15+ easy damage VS 5 seems pretty nice. My metagame is kinder to Fling as long as I bate counters with my other threats.

City of Brass VS Glimmervoid

I didn't have Glimmervoids, and I thought they might be unreliable compared to City of Brass. I was wrong. City of Brass hurts, especially with Confidant in the long game. How much are Glimmervoids running these days? Oh, I also need Blinkmoth Nexus, haha.

Another note: I think Chrome Mox is bad in this deck. I'd much rather play Paradise Mantle.

...

Anyways, onto the tournament: 4 Round Legacy

Round 1 VS MUC: I crushed him in two games straight. I don't even know anything about his deck, except that it was pretty slow. Darksteel Cidatel Aether Vial Ornithopter with Confidant in hand sealed his fate. Game two was pretty much the same. (1-0)

Round 2 VS G/W Beats: I was pretty scared this game- Jitte, Armadillo, Rancor, Beserk, etc. did not sound like much fun. Game one he only drew one land the whole time. Game two I saw Watchwolf with Rancor and Armadillo Cloak. My Ravager, Worker, and Fling couldn't stand up, so I scooped. Game three was looking like game two- I was getting crushed. I had lots of land, Vial, and Atog in play. He has some huge creatures about to crush me. My draw was Fling, and I hit him for 17, winning the game. (2-0)

Round 3 VS Goblins: Game one was pretty bad. He was playing lots of burn, allowing him to kill all of my key creatures. I drew into land with a Lackey on the table :( Game two I sided in 4 Enforcer and 4 Welding Jar, taking out 4 Chromatic Star and 4 Confidant. Two Enforcers on turn four loomed down at him while he drew 1/1's and land. Game three was super close- Atog Disciple of the Vault with lethal damage on the stack outplayed his burn spells and Siege-Gang. (3-0)

Round 4 VS WUB: Anyone know what this deck is called? Brainstorm, Confidant, FoW, STP, Jitte, that 4/4 for 1W, Vindicate SB, etc. I lost in two straight games. He killed all of my creatures, countered my Flings, destroyed my Platings, and bashed my head in with Jitte on Mr. 4/4 1W. SS and Winter Orb would have beat him, but I didn't have any with me :( Does anyone have any other SB tech against aggro control like that?

...

In conclusion, Confidant kills, but I would definately play Enforcer in the SB. Thoughts?

FallenOmnipotent

01-07-2007, 12:36 AM

I too dislike Chrome Mox. What to replace it with? I'm not sure. Paradice Mantel doesn't look bad though.

How was the 1 Academy Ruins?

Eldariel

01-07-2007, 08:34 AM

That deck you played against in the last round is UWb Fish. On another note, round 2 g2, couldn't you have sacked 4 other artifacts to Ravager, floating mana, Flinging the Ravager at the oversized Watchwolf moving the counters to Worker, then tried to take it back with a 6/6.

markdirt

01-12-2007, 12:56 PM

The Academy Ruins was actually pretty bad, haha. I really don't recommend using it. Blinkmoth Nexus is 40937450238502398540 times better- I don't even think I used Academy Ruins once. There are situations where it would be game saving, but they really don't seem to come up enough to warrant playing it over other cards. Paradise Mantle seems good, although playing one is kind of inconsistant. I'm thinking of dropping a Fling and testing two Paradise Mantle. I'll let you know how it goes.

Alright, thanks for the UWb fish name :) I can't really remember what happened R2G2, but you're probably right. I remember thinking I was in a large amount of trouble, but that might have just been other forces talking to me.

Bongo

01-28-2007, 03:21 PM

I'm experimenting with some unusual choices (or better, omissions), here's the list:

2 Glimmervoid
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple Of The Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Shrapnel Blast
3 Pithing Needle

1. No Vial
The only creatures you want to vial out are the Arcbounds and Disciples. Unlike Vial in Goblins, I got the impression that Vial in Affinity is one of the weaker cards. Paradise Mantle was also too weak. The best "fixer" is Chromatic Star.
I included some Needles in their places, and haven't regretted it so far.
In counter-heavy metagames, Vial is a better, so one might say this is a metagame decision. However, for a mixed metagame, I like maindeck Needle a lot better. I boarded them in so frequently that it's better to side them out if you don't need them.

2. No Atog
With Atog, you're often going all-in, and that gamble hasn't paid off for me. It also was sitting uselessly in my hand too often for my taste, either because I couldn't cast him or he would have been useless anyway. Atog is also not an artifact, which surprisingly matters sometimes.

Thoughts?

Xero

01-28-2007, 03:45 PM

1. No Vial
The only creatures you want to vial out are the Arcbounds and Disciples. Unlike Vial in Goblins, I got the impression that Vial in Affinity is one of the weaker cards. Paradise Mantle was also too weak. The best "fixer" is Chromatic Star.
I included some Needles in their places, and haven't regretted it so far.
In counter-heavy metagames, Vial is a better, so one might say this is a metagame decision. However, for a mixed metagame, I like maindeck Needle a lot better. I boarded them in so frequently that it's better to side them out if you don't need them.

Vial allows you to do combat tricks that wouldn't be available to you otherwise. It creates surpirse blockers, suprise creature pump with Ravager, and surpirse life loss with Disiple. Plus, Affinity needs Disciple/Ravager/Atog to do well. Vial guarentees that they come down. It also speeds the deck up and smoothes the mana base.

With Atog, you're often going all-in, and that gamble hasn't paid off for me. It also was sitting uselessly in my hand too often for my taste, either because I couldn't cast him or he would have been useless anyway. Atog is also not an artifact, which surprisingly matters sometimes

You wouldn't have as many problems casting Atog if you played Vial. Atog is necessary, it makes the combo win more likely.

Bongo

01-28-2007, 05:01 PM

Valid points.

However, with only 12 creatures to vial in, Vial is not powerful enough. It's also a weak topdeck and something you don't want to see late-game. I'd rather have some Chromatic Spheres, which are better in the late-game.

I think there are two possible directions for Affinity:

1. URB - Thoughtcast, Enforcer, no Vial

2. BR - Confidant, Atog, Vial

The experimental decklist above belongs to category 1. URB might be more explosive, but BR seems to be the more consistant one of the two.

Iranon

01-28-2007, 07:37 PM

I found Vial a tremendous help even without Dark Confidant (which I personally don't like unless I have a way of playing it turn 1... which creates even bigger topdecking issues).

Not only does it help stabilising your mana base and allow for combat tricks, it makes powering out Enforcers turn 2 and 3 much easier. I also run 2 Paradise Mantles in addition and no non-artifact lands for the same reason, and it works like a charm.

Vardaman

01-28-2007, 11:17 PM

Here's a list I've been playing for the heck of it and it's been pretty decent.

Lands - 19
4 U artifact land
4 B arti land
4 R arti land
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures – 25
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Atog

other – 16
3 Lotus Petal
4 Chromatic Star
4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating
2 Tormod’s Crypt

It doesn't have Vial but I haven't missed it. Lotus Petal can lead to some pretty busted starts. The 2x Crypt can be changed out for Needle/Fling/Shrap Blast, etc. I just thought I'd throw down a decent non-Vial list for you guys to pick apart. The deck doesn't have much of a late game but it is Affinity after all. ;)

About Atog: Sometimes he's crap but it's nice to have another "Ravager" to just win with Disciple. I've been happy with 2 but could see 3 in a two color build of Affinity.

Bongo

01-29-2007, 03:54 PM

Bane of the Living

01-29-2007, 04:39 PM

Maybe the Vial/Needle debate is a personal preference.

I agree that Vial has multiple uses and all, but it doesn't do enough for me, particularly when drawn later.

Needle on the otherhand has been simply amazing. There are so many activated abilities, you'll find a target against almost everything. Needle is quality disruption and gives Affinity an aggro-control feel. It simply shores up so much of it holes and is a cheap artifact to boot, I'd say it's better than Vial at this point.

Edit: It's also nice that you can name Vial against Goblins without interfering with your own plan. Maindeck Needle really helps to tilt game 1 in your favor, which is important against the de facto best and most popular deck.

I wouldnt bother playing the deck without at least 2-3 Atogs because your falling short of the combo win too often. You dont have any outs to an enemy pithing needle naming Ravager. You also take more of a pounded from named card since they dont even need to name vial if your playing without it. That leaves to targets, rav and plating.

I chose to keep Shrapnal Blast in over Thoughcast because I found blue wasnt worth splashing just for card advantage +1. Shrapnal Blast acts as removal, which thoughcast cant replicate. Shrap also allows you to throw those 'needled' artifacts at your opponent so stay usefull.

One of the greatest threats with vial is DotV. He's the most important spell to counter since he shaves a whole turn off solidarity. Vialing him in to respond to Shattering Spree or Deed is also amazing.

The other hugemongous reason to be playing vial is Tog. Ive won many games where my opponent tapped out seeing no potential threats only to have me vial atog out eot and swing on my turn for 12+ and the win.

Your reasons to cut vial are shadowed by advantages of its inclusion. Perhaps you need to accomidate for it by including more 2 drops. If your really bent on keeping blue in consider the addition of Meddling Mage.

Bongo

02-11-2007, 06:57 AM

Although I tested some different versions of Affinity, I still can't reach a consensus about which version to run.

There are two ways that contend for the title of "best Affinity deck":

1. URB Mantle Affinity

2 Glimmervoid
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat Of The Synod
4 Vault Of Whispers

4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple Of The Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

4 Paradise Mantle
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Shrapnel Blast

2. BR Confidant Affinity

2 Badlands
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault Of Whispers

4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple Of The Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Dark Confidant
2 Atog

4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Pithing Needle

I've had the best results with those two builds. Mantle is more explosive, while Confidant has a better late-game. Any opinions?

EDIT: Maybe it was a bit unclear from the post - which version do you think is better?

Bane of the Living

02-12-2007, 06:42 PM

I think you should try mage if your playing blue. It makes it much more worth it and if you like the aggro/control feel you'll love the swap from tog to mage. I know I said playing without tog is a liability but you have coverage from MM. Mantle helps you get your white mana and mage wears it beautifully while the machines make war. This gives you the option of swords in the board to help with stompy decks. (jitte sucks!)

I dont know which list is better but I think my preference lies with confidant. 4/4's with no evasion are great if you cast them turns 1-2 but after that each one will just start looking better as bob. Especially if control terrorizes your meta.

Is anyone planning to bring affinity to columbus?

Shriekmaw

02-13-2007, 05:31 PM

Is anyone planning to bring affinity to columbus?

I'm not really planning on bringing affinity to Columbus, but I will bring Foil Affinity to Columbus. I do think its a very good choice for the current metagame, but I could also be totally wrong.

Xero

02-15-2007, 12:47 AM

I'm not really planning on bringing affinity to Columbus, but I will bring Foil Affinity to Columbus. I do think its a very good choice for the current metagame, but I could also be totally wrong.

It depends a lot on match-ups. If you hit combo or Rifter more than once, you're probably done. Affinity has a good chance against everything else though.

Shriekmaw

02-15-2007, 09:41 PM

It depends a lot on match-ups. If you hit combo or Rifter more than once, you're probably done. Affinity has a good chance against everything else though.

As of now, Rifter has fallen out of the top tier so very few people will play it and I plan own that trend continuing. The only matchup I'm worried about and I know it will show up in good numbers is Iggy Pop. I feel the matchups with the rest of the field is so good that I'm not thinking about playing another deck at the GP.

This goes for just about any tournament, it comes down to matchups. Hopefully I have some good luck in that, and the byes that I have will help also.

Odd Mutation

02-16-2007, 02:48 PM

Hi everybody,

I've been playing this deck lately and I'm wondering: how many times have you thought 17 lands not to be enough? I'm used to playing 19.

Thanks,

Robrecht.

Bane of the Living

02-16-2007, 06:02 PM

Ive been testing 17 just fine in a build without enforcer. Lately however, Ive been messing with 19 land 2 of which being Wasteland.

Iranon

02-16-2007, 07:36 PM

For a build with Enforcers, 16 is the absolute minimum if each and every one is an artifact land... which will, however, force you to adjust your spell selection such as running additional colour fixers and more in the 0-mana slot than just 4 ornithopters. Paradise Mantle helps in both cases (I run 2 in addition to 4 Vials).

In more conservative lists, with 4-6 non-artifact lands and 4 acceleration pieces, I think 18 is a good number. 17 might be fine with if you run only 2-3 non-artifact lands. If you use Wastelands, count each as half a land only.

I don't feel qualified to comment on Confidant Affinity. While I have tested it extensively. I have not been able to tweak it to a point where I am truly satisfied.

Bane of the Living

02-17-2007, 11:55 AM

I don't feel qualified to comment on Confidant Affinity. While I have tested it extensively. I have not been able to tweak it to a point where I am truly satisfied.

Whats your build look like? I find 4 shrapnal blast manditory to round out the decks loss of enforcer.

wmagzoo7

02-18-2007, 10:16 AM

Why shrap blast? Isn't fling almost always better when it lets you just go sac all my dudes to ravager/ atog and fling him ftw. It really helped me to win a lot of games that felt unwinnable.

Bongo

02-18-2007, 01:19 PM

Giles

02-20-2007, 12:53 PM

I have dusted off my old affinity deck (It was extended legal, back when extended was fun to play)

But I have a quick questionare for everyone who plays affinity

1) How many Lands do you play with?
2) What colors do you play with?
3) Vial, Mox or Mantle?
4) Is there any hidden tech that you are willing to share?
5) Is there any good old articles out there?
6) What is the card that you fear (or hate seeing) the most?

I will answer all these questions when I do some more play testing.

Finn

02-20-2007, 01:04 PM

Unfortunately for Affinity, it is already so tight that very little from outside Mirrodin Block is good enough to benefit it.

Affinity is a funny animal. In places like the northern Midwest where Affinity is prevalent, Serenity is a popular hoser. But in most places there is little to no directed hate, giving Affinity the edge it needs to be competitive. If it ever gets too big for its breeches, the hate will come around, and the deck will suffer greatly, etc. etc. Oh, and some control decks have Pernicious Deed as well, and that can be fairly effective against some versions.

kirdape3

02-20-2007, 01:10 PM

1. 17
2. U/B/r
3. Vial.
4. No, not really. If you're a competent Affinity player with experience with the deck in Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard, you should be fine.
5. Look to that era for good articles.
6. Null Rod

wmagzoo7

02-20-2007, 03:50 PM

19 land
UBR
Vial
No Secret tech but Fling is really good in the deck
I didnt see any articles just some threads about affinity
Null rod eats me along with serenity if I ever play it.
PS. Control can definitely be a bitch to play against and Shrap. may very well be better versus them but doesn't vialing out creatures work against counter control seeing as they either waste a free counter for that rather than ravager etc. Fling however gives you that awesome topdeck ability that gives the deck the combo kill. When you get to the late game and attack for 1 with your atog your opponent feels the need to block it because if not then it could very well be game over seeing as you just dealt them about 14+ damage at the least.

Bongo

02-21-2007, 06:05 AM

1) 18
2) BR
3) Vial
4) Pithing Needle maindeck
5) Daffinitive Affinity Guide by Mark Young
6) Null Rod

Fling is only better when your metagame is mostly Aggro and Combo without Counterspells. In all other circumstances, Shrap is the way to go.

Lately, BR gives me better results than UBR.

264505

02-23-2007, 10:31 PM

1. If Fling gets countered, you're toast. If Shrap gets countered, you can quickly reload since you haven't used all your resources.

2. Fling is mainly good against Aggro or Combo without counters, while Shrap is better when you have to take Counterspells into account. Most aggro matchups are in your favor anyway, while decks packing counterspells are more difficult to win. Hence, you use Shrapnel Blast to make your iffy matchups a little better.

3. Fling is mostly good on the attack, while Shrap can be used proactively and reactively.

4. Fling is shit without Ravager/Atog, Shrapnel Blast is not. You pack 8 Ravager/Atog at most, while 40-50 artifacts are there for Shrapnel Blast.
Fling is also very goog with anything plated. If you dont have a plating, ravager, or Atog in play, your in rough shape already (barring multiple enforcers) so shrap blast in that situation isnt that much better when you have to reach that far. Flinging a plated creature has won me a lot of games i shouldnt have and it was always for more than 5 damage.

Bane of the Living

02-24-2007, 03:38 PM

I think we all see Flings potential. There are certainly situations where it will deal a good 10 damage for the win, but the benifits are outweighed by the cost of the card. Too much can go wrong when going all in like that. The deck already has the ability to all in with modular, I dont think it needs a spell that requires such a devestating cost. Like I and Bongo already stated Shrap has the mega benefit of reactive damage. If your enforcer or plating bites the dust you deal another 5 with it. Altho Fling can be used like this to some degree it requires a creature and a high power//toughness to work well. Shrap works regardless of the type or size of artifact.

Shriekmaw

02-24-2007, 10:47 PM

I haven't posted an affinity list in quite some time on this thread. I'll present my following updated decklist that I've been using to pretty good sucess in my area.

Vial Affinity

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
4 Aether Vial
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Chromatic Star
3 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
3 Cranial Plating
2 Pithing Needle
2 Atog

SB

2 Shattering Spree
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

I'm always working on the perfect sideboard to the deck, but its always changing to reflect the metagame.

My early version included adding green into the md for Berserk which cut blue for thoughtcast. I do really like thoughtcast in the deck, but sometimes I miss having Bererks for faster wins. Green also added naturalize into the board which I loved and do miss sometimes.

Thoughts and comments are always welcomed.

wmagzoo7

02-24-2007, 10:59 PM

Shriekmaw

02-25-2007, 08:54 PM

That is pretty much my list except i run
-1 darksteel citadel
-4 Chromatic Star
-2 Pithing Needle
+1 Glimmervoid
+1 Thoughtcast
+1 Ornithopter
+3 Fling
+1 Atog

I personally like this list because it enables the combo kill which the deck could use to escape those impossible situations.

I was wondering what your sideboard looked like? Thats the most interesting part. I haven't found a perfect sb for the deck as of yet.

Xero

03-11-2007, 08:26 PM

torgar

03-13-2007, 06:42 PM

Has adding Chrome Mox along with Fire/Ice been tested? Fire/Ice, while great for imprint is also versatile, clearing the way for a big swing.. with the tapping or the dmg. I know Chrome Mox is a higher risk for a faster tempo, but thought it was worth considering.

Xero

03-13-2007, 09:30 PM

I wouldn't run either. F//I has no synergy with the deck. You have Ornithopters that can fly over blockers, plus you can win without the attack phase. I don't like Chrome Mox. You often have nothing to imprint, making it a 0 cost artifact that does nothing. I'd rather run more Ornithopters, Lotus Petal, or Paradise Mantel if I'm hungry for 0 drops.

Shriekmaw

03-16-2007, 10:37 PM

Right now my sideboard is:

4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Pithing Needle
4x Enginered Plague
3x Tormod's Crypt

Against Goblins, do you think sideboarding out Vial so you can name it with Needle is a good plan? It seems to work for me, although if you don't draw any of your needles I can see it being a bad idea.
ou

If you worried about the Goblins matchup, I found that the best sideboard strategy with my build of Affinity is just put in the 4 Engineered Plagues. I main deck 2 needles already in my build. Taking out vials is a bad idea, because you want them as well as Goblins. It may come down to playing a needle on them, but I prefer saving the needles for wastelands or ports so you can resolve Engineered Plague.

I believe the matchup is just about even game 1, and shifts in the favor of affinity after you bring in the 4 plagues from the board.

I have never lost to Vial Goblins when playing Vial Affinity.

TheMagicWizard

03-18-2007, 08:37 AM

Hello

I want to present my current list here. I made some unusual desicions, which i will comment now. First I play without blue. The blue Spash gives me only Thoughcast, which only makes 1 Cardadvantage and which isnt for shure not a Keycard. So there is more room for ,more agressive cards.

First the manabase:

// Lands
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [U] Badlands

I think 18 Mana is the right deal. I dont want to be flooded, but I always need two mana, so 16 are in a Wasteland Meta not enough. I also play Factory over Nexus, because it is just bigger. The flying ability of the Nexus is not that strong as it sounds.

// Creatures
3 [MR] Atog
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

I play Bob for Thoughcast. Well Bob makes also damage and of course more cardsadvantage. He makes usual 1 dmg (1.2 i think) which is very less espacaly for an aggro deck.

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Shrapnel Blast
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte is just amazing agains all kinds of aggro. Of course it is a meta desicion. I see Blast over Fling. Fling can deal more dmg, but the Blast is just a save dmg dealer.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [5E] Winter Orb

Crypt agains Lands and of Course Thres. I desided to play the Orb and what should i say: He is just God! With the right timing hea beats every controldeck. The problem is, that he is an artefact, which is postboard not the best protection. But with the right timing he give you just the 2-3 rounds you need to kill.

Radley

03-18-2007, 03:13 PM

Don't you think that you can put winter orb in maindeck then you can add fling. Why would anyone lose if they would use fling if you're against control deck with counterspells? If I'm against counter decks I'd just attack till my opponent lose the game or if my opponent taps out of lands but expect a force of will. I don't think shrapnel blast is that great because it can't win you a losing game, but fling on the other hand can win you a losing battle.

Shriekmaw

03-18-2007, 04:51 PM

// Lands
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [U] Badlands

// Creatures
3 [MR] Atog
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Shrapnel Blast
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [5E] Winter Orb

I would like to go over your decklist with some comments and suggestions.

I believe the mana base is alright with 18 lands, I always run 19 lands b/c I found that was the right number for myself when I play the deck. I don't like the Mishra's Factories in the deck, I would prefer that you switch them to Blinkmoth Nexus b/c they fly which is key in a lot of matchups for forcing through damage. The badlands could get replaced with some artifacts lands or a few glimmervoids which helps a lot.

The creature base is pretty good, I don't like confidant in the deck b/c I like to run myr enforcers which are very good in a lot of matchups. This is clearly a preference on what direction you would like the deck to go.

I would like to see out of the non-creature base both jitte and shrapnel blast cut in the main deck for Fling and chromatic star as I found them to be pretty amazing in the deck.

The sideboard looks good, I would only add Chalice of the Void b/c there is a lot of combo in my area and usually in the big tournaments that I enter.

Tell me what you think.

Bongo

03-18-2007, 06:54 PM

That decklist is actually really close to my current maindeck. I have:

-3 Jitte
-1 Atog
+4 Chromatic Star

Star is amazing and smoothes your draw and mana.

The badlands could get replaced with some artifacts lands or a few glimmervoids which helps a lot.

Glimmervoid? You only need B or R, and Badlands doesn't have a drawback. I wouldn't replace them with artifact lands either, as you want to have access to the right mana.

Pithing Needle is really good in the sideboard. Sometimes I even maindeck them. I would include swap the Plagues in the board with Needles. 2B with 18 lands is sometimes hard to do when you're facing Wasteland and Port. Needles are versatile, cheap and good against stuff like Deed, Vial, Wasteland and Jitte.

I recommend:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Winter Orb

TheMagicWizard

03-18-2007, 07:40 PM

@Star: I think it is a Question of the Meta. With Vial, Worker and DotV i have 12 certain 1st round drops. I am no friend of the star, because you 1st never now what you get and you dont realy need the manacolour focusing that much I think because the Vial does a great Job here. Of course it is always a question of the Meta, but with lots of aggro I see Jitte over Star.

@CotV: I will not play him, because there is very less combo in my local area. But he is also a very nice SB choice, altought my first feeling was to lock myself down with it. Another advantag is, that he locks down NQG. Hmm ok maybe i will test him for a while... :)

@Needle: Should we have fear of Wastelands?! Of course another keycard is Life from the Loam.

Bongo

03-18-2007, 08:18 PM

Not only does Star fix your mana, it's also the best artifact for Ravager/Atog/Shrapnel Blast.
I don't have problems against most Aggro decks even without Jitte.

Needling Wasteland when you're holding a land-light draw is sometimes necessary.

Radley

03-20-2007, 01:36 AM

Guys, instead of looking for more colored cards to add, why not find more artifacts that can fit the deck? I know thoughtcast is really great, but sometimes it get stuck stuck in the hand. I'd play terrarion over that card or maybe play both of them so I'd get 12 draw cards with 8 of them being able to fix the mana.

I'd prefer more creatures with flying so I'd use somber hoverguard.

I played this deck and I never won against goblin because goblin deck can search for tin street and I don't know if this deck can consistently win at turn 3-4. This deck also don't have any kind of disruption and only relies to an atog/ravager-fling combination.

TheMagicWizard

03-20-2007, 05:58 AM

The plan agains Gobbos for me is just Jitte or Plaque. With the list of Bongo it would be realy hard to beat this deck for shure. I think Star main against Jitte makes this Matchup a lot weeker for us. I allready told, that it is a meta desicion.

So i also play Factory. This card has an amazing defensive ability agains Goblins. OK it doesnt fly, but it can always handl Lacey (+ Incierator) and Piledriver.

Alex_Van_R

03-20-2007, 06:01 AM

I played this deck and I never won against goblin because goblin deck can search for tin street and I don't know if this deck can consistently win at turn 3-4. This deck also don't have any kind of disruption and only relies to an atog/ravager-fling combination.

If you have troubles with goblins, you still have engineered plague in your sideboard. When I tested this deck, I used to play Darkblast/smother in the side against goblins. Raffinity can certainly win turn 3-4. Just like goblins, it can be extremely fast. Atog/Fling/ravager isn't the only aspect to what the deck relies. You have enough creatures to go for the beats, you have disciple of the vault, and so on.

Radley

03-20-2007, 06:09 AM

If you have troubles with goblins, you still have engineered plague in your sideboard. When I tested this deck, I used to play Darkblast/smother in the side against goblins. Raffinity can certainly win turn 3-4. Just like goblins, it can be extremely fast. Atog/Fling/ravager isn't the only aspect to what the deck relies. You have enough creatures to go for the beats, you have disciple of the vault, and so on.

Is raffinity different from vial affinity? I didn't like vials in maindeck, I never used it even once, I'll prolly remove it and add terrarion.

By the way, Is there any chance to add goblin welder? It can get you a destroyed artifact that can win you a game like cranial plating or ornithopter.

Alex_Van_R

03-20-2007, 03:00 PM

Is raffinity different from vial affinity? I didn't like vials in maindeck, I never used it even once, I'll prolly remove it and add terrarion.

By the way, Is there any chance to add goblin welder? It can get you a destroyed artifact that can win you a game like cranial plating or ornithopter.

Vial affinity is raffinity... Whatever, the name doesn't matter.
You need those vials. They're very good against control, for example to put Disciple of the Vault into play. You can do instant speed tricks with it. And so on. How come you didn't use it once... :S :S :S

Goblin Welder doens't attack, doesn't have haste, is an easy target to kill and which artifact besides Cranial PLating do you really want to return?

Iranon

03-20-2007, 03:42 PM

Welder is tempting but Affinity should be wary of any card that doesn't feature in a turn 3-4 kill. If you want to take the deck in a slower and more control-ish version, they would be good... but it would be a different deck.

I tried to abuse the mechanism in both 'Aggro Stax' and 'Iron Fish' concepts; especially in the former Welder is quite good. I haven't been able to develop either to a point where I would call it a good or even decent deck.

Eldariel

03-20-2007, 05:07 PM

Goblin Welder seems like a rather strong alternative, especially if you go more control-direction (which seems more viable anyways as hate doesn't affect you if they can't cast it). But put this way, it's very depressing for an opponent to see Ravager come back for an artifact land right after you killed the first one. Not to mention, he's the best Mother of Runes in the world against removal and stuff. You'll basically never lose anything as long as Welder remains in play and that's only the tip of the iceberg. For example, I'll be VERY happy if someone uses and StP on it instead of my actual creatures. Oh, and provided that opponent has some other artifacts in grave, it can take out Null Rod or Needle or such (not very common though as we don't have ways to put artifacts to their grave and decks playing either tend not to do such themselves).

Radley

03-20-2007, 06:21 PM

I just thought of goblin welder because it is depressing to lose cranial plating or ornithopter. And sometimes, the artifacts in play has no function(ornithopter). Gob welder can also abuse terrarion and chromatic star. So if you use goblin welder's ability to exchange a chromatic star or terrarion for chromatic star/terrarion, you are like drawing a card a turn ^_^ that was a stupid combo :laugh: Another thing is if your opponent tries to STP a artifact creature you control, you can sacrifice the creat so stp fizzles.

xsockmonkeyx

03-20-2007, 06:29 PM

Bane of the Living

03-20-2007, 06:46 PM

When I was playing Welder I ran Tangle Wire to compliment him. You can refresh it whenever you want and sac it with ravager so you untap and your opponent doesnt. Winter Orb is good for this effect as well.

Radley

03-20-2007, 07:17 PM

Radley

03-20-2007, 07:25 PM

You sir, make a good point. What would your list look like with Welders in it?

I have no idea yet :tongue: I might remove 4 aether vials for it if this deck will go control although it might not be a good idea. Tangle wire is really good. Winter Orb is great against control even without gob welder.

umbowta

03-20-2007, 11:11 PM

You sir, make a good point. What would your list look like with Welders in it?Even a broken watch is right twice a day. I do admit that it sounds like a fun idea.

Radley

03-21-2007, 02:51 AM

Guys, If you don't know if you should run shrapnel blast over fling, maybe you can use both as a 3 ofs ^_^

Nihil Credo

03-21-2007, 05:05 AM

Such a list (Welder Affinity) could probably cut Ornithopter, since Tangle Wire can replicate its evasion and the deck will care less about explosive openings anyway.

I would very much like to see it work. I had tried Welder in 2005 but it didn't work, but back then Terrarion, Dark Confidant and Star hadn't been printed yet, so it was kind of a shitty deck.

Finn

03-21-2007, 01:03 PM

I happen to think that Welder Affinity is ultimately a bust, but there is a funny thing that happens when people see a Welder hit play. They panic. I have experienced it. He could be useful as a takeout piece. If hate is going at him, the Disciples may stand to inflict more damage. Plus, if he does stick around, he is a decent card drawing engine.

Xero

03-21-2007, 01:35 PM

Bane of the Living

03-21-2007, 06:35 PM

Ok heres my current innovation on the deck..

4 vault
4 furnace
4 citadel
2 nexus
2 badlands
3 ancient tomb

4 disciple
3 confidant
2 negator
3 atog
3 worker
3 ornithopter
4 ravager
4 frogmite

4 star
3 shrap blast
4 vial
4 plating

Its been working really well. I like the 19 land build because Negator and Shrap Blast demand it. It would seem Negs conflicts with rav and tog but he loves modular! The deck can turbo him out with Ancient Tomb and vial him out as a really nasty surprise. The fact he isnt an artifact works amazingly to work around all the hate brought in against you. Ancient Tomb is naturally good in the deck, helping the explosiveness!

Xero

03-22-2007, 12:19 AM

Ok heres my current innovation on the deck..

4 vault
4 furnace
4 citadel
2 nexus
2 badlands
3 ancient tomb

4 disciple
3 confidant
2 negator
3 atog
3 worker
3 ornithopter
4 ravager
4 frogmite

4 star
3 shrap blast
4 vial
4 plating

I'm not sure you're serious. You have 7 non-artifact lands, which seriously hinders the decks strategy. You say Negator "loves Modular," but modular dosen't work at all with it (it only works on artifact creatures). It also isn't good with Vial, because you want to keep that at 1 or 2, not at 3. Finally, Ancient Tomb + Confidant is a ton of life loss.

SillyMetalGAT

03-22-2007, 01:34 AM

Finally, Ancient Tomb + Disiple is a ton of life loss.

Disciple doesn't hit you for damage so it doesn't affect you. So when you sac permanents, you can make your opponent lose 1 for each point. Plus, Negator has trample, so that with Cranial Plating is good. But I agree with the 7 non-artifact lands, thats a little too much, even though Ancient Tomb is good in Affinity.

Radley

03-22-2007, 05:00 AM

I woudn't bother with Welder. Getting back artifacts is nice and all, but it dosen't really advance your strategy a whole lot, plus you'd have to cut more necessary pieces. If you really want recursion, I think that Myr Retriever might be better, since it's at least an artifact.

Well, if you abuse tangle wire you might actually win because their lands will be tapped or their creatures. This might work but not in affinty though, I think.

The addition of phyrexian negator is ok. Have you considered running 4 and remove dark confidant? ^_^'

Alex_Van_R

03-22-2007, 05:49 AM

The addition of phyrexian negator is ok. Have you considered running 4 and remove dark confidant? ^_^'

If he removes his confidants, he doesn't have a draw engine. Phyrexian Negator isn't that good in my opinion, but it depends on your meta. It is, however, nice with cranial plating.

Xero

03-22-2007, 10:18 AM

Disciple doesn't hit you for damage so it doesn't affect you. So when you sac permanents, you can make your opponent lose 1 for each point. Plus, Negator has trample, so that with Cranial Plating is good. But I agree with the 7 non-artifact lands, thats a little too much, even though Ancient Tomb is good in Affinity.

I meant Confidant, not Disciple. Sorry.

SillyMetalGAT

03-22-2007, 12:45 PM

Even in the case of Confidant, the most you'll ever take is 4 off a Frogmite. I love Confidant in Affinity and would never ever take him out. I actually like to see him in multiples just because theres so many cards in the deck you dont take any damage from drawing. Confidant is the BALLS in this deck.

Radley

03-22-2007, 02:23 PM

I don't think confidant can win you games in 3-4 turns, but negator can.

Cavius The Great

03-22-2007, 04:58 PM

I don't think confidant can win you games in 3-4 turns, but negator can.

Of course it can. It accelerates the deck and lets you draw into more threats, increasing your clock. Card advantage wins games, or so the saying goes.

Radley

03-23-2007, 04:53 AM

Of course it can. It accelerates the deck and lets you draw into more threats, increasing your clock. Card advantage wins games, or so the saying goes.

Think of this:
If you want to win in turn 3-4, a second turn dark confidant slows the deck and you need to wait for 2 more turns to draw 2 cards which a thoughtcast can do easily.

2 negators isn't really as consistent as 4 copies. Consistent is good.

edgewalker

03-23-2007, 07:46 AM

@Radely, in a vacuum correct negator would be better, it's great for the goldfish. Unfortunately, the issue at hand is that we don't play tournaments based on goldfishes, you actually have an opponent to play against. Said opponent will be trying damn hard to disrupt you're game plan. This is where confidant shines over negator. Confidant is 2 cards every turn and with a low curve you hardly notice the life loss. So, if you fall prey to removal, counters or other forms of disruption, you can easily bounce back with two cards per turn. You might ask though, "Edgewalker, why not just play thoughtcast?" Well Radley, I'll answer your inane question. First, confidant always has a cc of 2, never 3, never 4 and never 5. He also is 1B since you're playing DoTV you're not splashing colors, where as thoughcast requires you to play a third color. He also beats while drawing cards while thoughcast doesn't. Not to mention he's 2 cards per turn everyt turn, thoughtcast is a 1 shot deal.

So, to wrap this all up confidant>thoughcast

BlinX

03-23-2007, 09:23 AM

When you play confidant, do you have to run lotus petal or chrome mox for a turn 1 confidant? Does anyone have a solid list that runs confidant so I can see if I prefer it over thoughtcast?

Alex_Van_R

03-23-2007, 09:40 AM

I don't think you want to run Mox or Petal in this deck. What would you cut for it anyway. In my testing of the deck, a turn one Vial was the best play most of the times. Getting confidant on turn 2 is still good enough.

Xero

03-23-2007, 03:07 PM

Petal is a little better than Chrome Mox I think, because it always does something, whereas Mox often has nothing to imprint.

Even in the case of Confidant, the most you'll ever take is 4 off a Frogmite. I love Confidant in Affinity and would never ever take him out. I actually like to see him in multiples just because theres so many cards in the deck you dont take any damage from drawing. Confidant is the BALLS in this deck.

I think the deck needs Enforcer to do well. Your Goblin match-up really suffers without it.

Bane of the Living

03-23-2007, 05:32 PM

What is this talk about Enforcer being good against goblins? Its good against thresh because it trades with all their guys and comes down early in the face of Daze. It isnt good against goblins because its a 4/4 body with no evasion. He isnt cast as easily thanks to Ports and Wastelands, which make his affinity pretty null and void. I always found myself paying too much for him against gobs thanks to Fanatics against my Workers, Gemplams shooting things ect. Hes not worth the slot, they just block him with Fanatic or Matron or other nonsense.

Negator however...

To doubters.. look at Red Deaths success. Do you know where it comes from? Negs. People have problems dealing with such fat creatures so early. He's got a reasonable casting cost so he wont lose us too much life when confidant flips him, ancient tomb helps power him out turn 2, as tho he has affinity. He can be vialed out pretty easily, creating an unpredictable win eot. Trample + plating is just as good as plating with wings, except that your adding 5 power of course. I said he loves Modular because when he takes damage you sac your workers and ravs to him and just donate their power to something. He has synergy with Disciple as well. People dont want to deal it damage when you have a disciple or two out. Acting like another element to the combo win. He's also amazing when people have surely used their removal up by mid-late game.

Ancient Tomb is a natural addition to the deck. Why wouldnt you want to cast a Chromatic Star AND a vial on turn one. What about the turn one ravager or plating to sneak through counters. The biggest reason its in the deck however... is to speed up plating. Think of the amount of games you played plating and passed the turn. Tomb turns those turns into equip and swing turns. The life loss is obsolete when using the tools for such fuel. You out aggro everything.

Xero

03-23-2007, 06:02 PM

Negator isn't that hot against Goblins. I especially wouldn't want it early, unlike Enforcer.

To doubters.. look at Red Deaths success. Do you know where it comes from? Negs. People have problems dealing with such fat creatures so early. He's got a reasonable casting cost so he wont lose us too much life when confidant flips him, ancient tomb helps power him out turn 2, as tho he has affinity. He can be vialed out pretty easily, creating an unpredictable win eot. Trample + plating is just as good as plating with wings, except that your adding 5 power of course. I said he loves Modular because when he takes damage you sac your workers and ravs to him and just donate their power to something. He has synergy with Disciple as well. People dont want to deal it damage when you have a disciple or two out. Acting like another element to the combo win. He's also amazing when people have surely used their removal up by mid-late game.

By running Ancient Tomb and a bunch of other non-artifact lands, aren't you hurting Plating, Frogmite, etc.? I've always tried to run as many artifacts as possible. Vialing out Negator isn't so hot, because it makes you set vial to a number that is otherwise useless. I'd much rather leave it at two for uncounterable Ravagers and Atogs than push it up to 3 for a 2-of.

Ancient Tomb is a natural addition to the deck. Why wouldnt you want to cast a Chromatic Star AND a vial on turn one. What about the turn one ravager or plating to sneak through counters.

There are definetly some good opening plays w/ Tomb. But its not any better than an artifact land for Affinity cards. It dosen't help Disiple, etc. Also, why would you want a turn one Ravager with no other artifact in play? That's just asking for a Bolt.

Bane of the Living

03-23-2007, 06:41 PM

Negator isn't that hot against Goblins. I especially wouldn't want it early, unlike Enforcer.

By running Ancient Tomb and a bunch of other non-artifact lands, aren't you hurting Plating, Frogmite, etc.? I've always tried to run as many artifacts as possible. Vialing out Negator isn't so hot, because it makes you set vial to a number that is otherwise useless. I'd much rather leave it at two for uncounterable Ravagers and Atogs than push it up to 3 for a 2-of.

There are definetly some good opening plays w/ Tomb. But its not any better than an artifact land for Affinity cards. It dosen't help Disiple, etc. Also, why would you want a turn one Ravager with no other artifact in play? That's just asking for a Bolt.

No negs isnt that great against goblins I admit. Hes not terrible against them either, his size creates problems for them if their resources are low.

In my version the only card with affinity is Frogmite, Tomb never slows this since the 'affinity' is produced with a 2 mana land. The benifit is playing things like plating before Remand is online. Equiping it a turn faster, and dropping things like Sphere of Resistance or Engineered Plague much faster. Plague can be hard to cast through waste/port. Tomb helps that. The only time Id push vial to three for him is if he's in hand, I dont have black mana, or Ill be winning the game by doing so. There are times where vial has run its course and you dont need it as much anymore or you draw doubles. You can sack it to negs and you can also sac the super special Chromatic Stars to satisfy him and draw a card.

Radley

03-24-2007, 05:15 AM

Bane of the Living

03-24-2007, 07:15 AM

If negator is that strong, why not play 4? I think you'll need him in turn 2-3 when he's most effective so making it a set is better.

Is atog still effective even without fling? I know arcbound ravager is still effective because it has modular and it's an artifact. Maybe you can remove the 3 atogs then replace it with 2 more negator and 1 more dark confidant so you got a set each. I think arcbound worker is better than frogmite(and if you pick frogmite with dark confidant it'll hurt. So I'll add 1 more arcbound worker then -1 frogmite.

The reason you dont want 4 negs main is he's a liability vs red decks. Red Death can play 4 because they back him up with an entire deck of disruption. We have no disruption, we just beat face. If your meta permits doing so, by all means play 4.

Atog is still the man because he offers the combo kill. Ravager isnt enough to depend on especially vs pithing needles. Frog is amazing, Id never play less than a playset. Thats like playing 3 Werebears.

Shriekmaw

04-01-2007, 11:40 PM

I would like a logical explanation on why we are talking about Negator in affinity? This creature should not get close to an affinity deck. Something about sacrificing permanents kinda gets me. I would rather sac permanents to make my ravager or atog bigger.

Can we please end the debate right here, Enforcer is amazing against goblins because it at least trades with their guys. Usually it takes 2 or more goblins to just kill a free 4/4 beater. That seems kinda good to me.

The one interesting twist on Affinity is the AfFOWnity list that won a large event in Spain. I'm going to have to explore this option a little more to see how viable this deck will be. Especially with the rise of Combo in the format.

ReAnimated

04-04-2007, 05:20 PM

Bane of the Living

04-04-2007, 06:53 PM

I've been messing around with Bane's orignal Confidant build (the one without negator) it seems pretty good , but i've only fished it haven't playtested it at all

I have a few questions:
1. Are u sure that 2 Shrapnel Blasts is optimal i feel like if they were 3 or 4 the deck would have a faster clock.

2. How does this deck fair agianst combo without any disruption or counters.

3. And could u please explain ur choice of negator (looks like ur tryign to trun it into suicide affinty).

4. How about Welding Jar in this deck ??? revives a creature for antoher blocker which is good agianst the goblin matchup , no?

* Sorry for any mispells *

1) I think before abandoning B/R Affinity I went up to 4 Shrap Blasts, yes its that good.

2) This deck sucks against combo which is why I have Therapy in the board with Sphere of Resistance and the reason I incorperated the Neg's maindeck.

3) Negator is there to help shore up the bad combo match. Its awsome to cast him turn 2 via Ancient Tomb and its great to vial him out against Thresh. The more you play with him you realize how lethal he becomes for the deck, much like S Blast. Its fine to have something else that wants to sac perms because it helps you trigger DotV at times. Ravager and other Modular cards like Neg's and trample + plating is win.

4) Ive always found welding jar sub par in this deck. It speeds up affinity but does nothing until used to regen something. At least cards like Chromatic Star fix mana and thin the deck. Paradise Mantle can be counted on as a mana source.

This is probably a good point to mention I stopped playing the deck.

I went mono blue and started playing AfFOWnity. Its got a favorable combo match in comparison to Vial Affinity's terrible match. Theres no reason not so switch over, do it now. Evolution my friends, dont live in the past.

ReAnimated

04-04-2007, 07:18 PM

Could you give us a list of ur build of AFowinty ( or however you spell it )

Bane of the Living

04-04-2007, 07:42 PM

Could you give us a list of ur build of AFowinty ( or however you spell it )

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Somber Hovergaurds
4 Thoughtcast
4 Force of Will
4 Cranial Plating
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Jitte
3 Needle
2 Crypt
3 Mana Leak
3 Echoing Truth
2 Powder Keg

Its really not an easy deck to play and will surely frustrate you as you make all the wrong discisions from not knowing when and what to imprint, when to cycle CoF, when to hold blue for FoW, when to sac shit to maximize damage, what to drop chalice out, what hands to keep, when to wasteland, ect ect. Practice.

ReAnimated

04-04-2007, 08:06 PM

Have you playtested this yet , if you have could you give us some matchups im particularly interested in the solidarity matchup

P.S Could you also give us some ideas on what to side-out agianst different match-ups?

Shriekmaw

04-04-2007, 08:27 PM

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Somber Hovergaurds
4 Thoughtcast
4 Force of Will
4 Cranial Plating
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Jitte
3 Needle
2 Crypt
3 Mana Leak
3 Echoing Truth
2 Powder Keg

Its really not an easy deck to play and will surely frustrate you as you make all the wrong discisions from not knowing when and what to imprint, when to cycle CoF, when to hold blue for FoW, when to sac shit to maximize damage, what to drop chalice out, what hands to keep, when to wasteland, ect ect. Practice.

I think this deck is very strong, if your expecting a lot of combo/control matchups. The only interesting matchup I would like to know more about is aggro. Especially Goblins which I think is a bad matchup for the deck. Thats my only real concern as I do like the deck a lot.

Kronicler

04-04-2007, 10:19 PM

While I agree that this evolution is the right move for affinity, there are a few things that I don't like about that list.

1) 16 blue cards (including FoW) with 8 cards to remove them. After playing Faerie Stompy for a long time I am sure that 16 is simply not enough to reliably support both FoW and chrome mox.

2) Only 8 blue sources, with 4 of them requiring you to remove blue cards before you can even use them. Once again, definately not enough to see a blue source when you want to reliably.

Kronicler

Radley

04-04-2007, 10:43 PM

Hey bane, are you rafael truchado? This is the decklist of affownity played by rafael truchado that won a tournament: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=7350

ReAnimated

04-05-2007, 12:20 AM

This deck looks amazingly promising as i saw in the site radley put up it beat goblins which is one of the otughest match-ups ( duh what am i saying )

Bane of the Living

04-06-2007, 06:50 PM

Hey bane, are you rafael truchado? This is the decklist of affownity played by rafael truchado that won a tournament: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=7350

No thats not me I live in New England.

While I agree that this evolution is the right move for affinity, there are a few things that I don't like about that list.

1) 16 blue cards (including FoW) with 8 cards to remove them. After playing Faerie Stompy for a long time I am sure that 16 is simply not enough to reliably support both FoW and chrome mox.

2) Only 8 blue sources, with 4 of them requiring you to remove blue cards before you can even use them. Once again, definately not enough to see a blue source when you want to reliably.

Kronicler

1) 16 Blue cards is the accepted number of blue cards to run to support Force. I dont usually expect to get a Chrome Mox imprint and pitch to Force in the same game. Its one of the things that makes the deck difficult to play. You need to manage your resources perfectly.

2) I almost always hit a blue mana when playing this deck. You should mulligan a hand with blue cards that arent force with no blue mana. Thats simple enough isnt it? You can still cast force with no blue mana and the deck is extremely capable of winning with all brown mana. Something FS cannot do.

I would love to discuss the deck more but this isnt the right place for it. If your interested I started discussion on The Mana Drain. Ill start the primer for it here soon.

ReAnimated

04-07-2007, 10:32 PM

3 words , control is BAD. I wasn't exceptcing B/u landstill to show up to my meta ( Dam you Alan ) but i got paired with it first round came out 0-2 ( But i didnt have the needles or the jittes in the side ).

I also played agianst solidarity , came out 1-2 first game i raced him and beat him because he couldnt go off , other 2 games he jus out raced me.

Then i played David Gearheart ( CavernNinja ( I think ) )
First Game

Me: Mox , hopter , land , Chalice at 1
David: Swamp , go
Me : Cranial plating , Frog mite , Equip to hopter , Spank him for 5
David : *Scoops*

Good Times :smile:

Then of course Game 2 & 3 i get spanked by Negator and Jitte. ( He was palying Red Death )

So my concluesion on this deck .......................... I need a sideboard

ReAnimated

04-08-2007, 12:42 AM

I was looking for a way to speed the deck's clock up and i came upon a not so good conclusion.......Trinket Mage , what are you guy's toughts on this card even if it costs 2U it can get u Mox / Hopter , It pitches to Force , It can Imprint to Mox

And also i've been thinking about Enforcer he hasn't been doign so hot lately he usally pops up turn 3 and by then combo is off and thresh has mongoose's and other threats

In conclusion I think im going to try out trinket mage for myr enforcer next week ( wish me luck ) :smile:

Please i would like some feedback for my idea of trinket mage , Thanks in advance

Shriekmaw

04-08-2007, 12:27 PM

I think it would be a better idea if someone set up a new thread to discuss this new build of Affinity. I think it would be best to leave this thread as Vial Affinity or Mantle Affinity deck lists only. This way we can discuss both types of decks because in my mind that are worlds apart in terms of their structure and style of play.

Bane of the Living

04-09-2007, 06:32 PM

nitewolf9

04-09-2007, 08:31 PM

I also played agianst solidarity , came out 1-2 first game i raced him and beat him because he couldnt go off , other 2 games he jus out raced me.

Then i played David Gearheart ( CavernNinja ( I think ) )
First Game

Me: Mox , hopter , land , Chalice at 1
David: Swamp , go
Me : Cranial plating , Frog mite , Equip to hopter , Spank him for 5
David : *Scoops*

Good Times :smile:

Then of course Game 2 & 3 i get spanked by Negator and Jitte. ( He was palying Red Death )

So my concluesion on this deck .......................... I need a sideboard

David Gearheart = Deep6er

I think this deck has many issues. It claims to have a good combo matchup because of force of will and chalice but it seems to just slow the deck down and not make enough of an impact against combo. I was playing solidarity and the only reason I lost game 1 was because I fizzled, the hate cards were speed bumps. Of course, cunning wish for rebuild is a problemo ::eep::.

I still think if you want to play affinity you should keep it "pure" and go for the speed kill, and pack combo hate in the board. The deck is strong because of it's explosiveness, and I don't think you want to water that down. You still can race solidarity game 1, with storm combo of course being a bitch (what the board is for I guess).

That's my initial opinion, but if people are doing well then maybe I am just not seeing something. Is it really that much better than "normal" affinity? I do like Chalice but I'm not sold on the force of will thing.

Honoluluicecaps

04-12-2007, 07:51 PM

Hey guys first post.

I took the new AfFOWnity deck and tested it heavily and found out a few things. Firstly, card draw is key. It seems continuously what happens is that I am stuck in topdeck mode hoping and praying to peel something off the top of the deck once my hand is empty, and I really don't think that 4x Thoughtcast is really enough in here.

My current version is running 3x Blinkmoth Nexus and 4x Looter il-Kor. From my testing results so far, the additional card draw has made it a helluva lot easier to find my answers, plus Blinkmoth has won me at least 5 games by itself. If a mass removal spell such as wrath kills my critters, I can often attach a cranial plating or two and swing FTW.

My version also doesn't run FoW. That's pretty unusual, partly because I can't afford them, and partly because in my testing it seemed that more often than I not I wanted to play a looter, thoughtcast, or hoverguard, rather than counter one of their spells.

Chalice is a monster though, and I think every build of affinity should run it to deal with combo.

Shriekmaw

04-12-2007, 08:06 PM

First, Welcome to The Source. You should go introduce yourself in the thread for new source members. This will allow everyone to get to know you a little better. Thanks for the input on the new deck archetype that I think is very good, but needs a lot more testing.

As of right now, I'm just going with the traditional Vial Affinity build and packing a good portion of my sideboard for combo hate as that is the weakest matchup for Affinity.

Thanks for the post and happy to see a new member.

Opterown

04-23-2007, 12:48 AM

Shriekmaw

04-23-2007, 12:55 AM

From FS:
Epochrasite {2} 1/1
Artifact Creature - Construct

Epochrasite comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it if you didn't play it from your hand.
When Epochrasite is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game with three time counters on it and it gains suspend.

Could this see play in this deck? I suppose it could be a replacement for a Myr Enforcer (if Vialed In), and it keeps coming back.

I think the card is just too slow for the deck. You want to drop creatures right away into play and not have to wait around for them. Plus it doesn't have modular which kinda defeats the purpose.

It would be nice if you have a vial out, but a lot of times this just isn't the case. Its a nice card to consider, but I don't think its a good fit into the deck at all.

What does everyone else think?

Xero

04-23-2007, 02:33 PM

The problem with the card is that its shitty without Vial, and not really good without Vial and Ravager. Archbound Worker is better in most circumstances.

Bane of the Living

04-23-2007, 06:08 PM

I think the card is just too slow for the deck. You want to drop creatures right away into play and not have to wait around for them. Plus it doesn't have modular which kinda defeats the purpose.

It would be nice if you have a vial out, but a lot of times this just isn't the case. Its a nice card to consider, but I don't think its a good fit into the deck at all.

What does everyone else think?

I think he went through a lot of trouble to create an account and make his first post about a terrible card. Other than that welcome to the source and try one of the more recent developed decks.

Opterown

04-24-2007, 03:02 AM

I think he went through a lot of trouble to create an account and make his first post about a terrible card. Other than that welcome to the source and try one of the more recent developed decks.

Actually, I've been a lurker here for 2 odd years or so and made an account last year. I only decided to start posting now since my FS Prerelease cracked 3 of these things, so I decided to wonder whether they were any good. I've built a version of Affinity (pretty standard UBR without Atog (Shrapblast instead)

Actually, I wanted to ask several questions. I find that Vial becomes a horrible topdeck midgame and it doesn't do all that much early game, unlike Goblins where it can ramp up to 4/5 counters. Affinity runs only a few cards which are 1/2 drops, and I find that hardcasting the creatures is often an acceptable tradeoff for not playing Vial. Yeah, sure, it helps not getting your things countered but is that good enough to get bogged down turn 3/4 trying to find the finisher? Or is it that I don't have enough 2-drops? (Only Ravager.)
What could I do to improve the consistency of Vial?

Ah, also, what would sideboard options and plans be against some of the more played decks?

Gekoratel

04-24-2007, 10:03 AM

I find that Vial becomes a horrible topdeck midgame and it doesn't do all that much early game, unlike Goblins where it can ramp up to 4/5 counters.

While its true that vial is not as good in Affinity as it is in Goblins, it is still a very good card to have in the deck. Vial is highly synergistic with the deck being an artifact as well as smoothing out your mana in the early game and accelerating your turn 2 and 3 plays. Without atog vial might not be quite as strong but atog is an incredibly powerful tool in affinity, it provides your fastest kills which are necessary to have a chance against combo in this format(at least game 1).

Here's my current decklist(I cut blue for green because thoughtcast was not that impressive in testing.)

RBg Affinity
4 Great Furnace
4 Vualt of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
1 Darksteel Citadel
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid

4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vualt
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Atog
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer

4 AEther Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
2 Berserk
2 Fling

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormods Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge

I've found the diversity of end game in fling and berserk to be quite good. My testing has been fairly limited mainly against thresh and goblins. Goblins has been favorable for me in all the games I've played the combination of fast clock and then either atog, ravager or cranial plating + berserk or fling usually is sufficient to finish Goblins off once they stabilize, post board that plus the threat of pyrocalsm makes it very hard for goblins to win.

Threshold is just about continually pushing damage through usually the game devolves into Nexus beats and my guys holding the ground. Assuming no needle shows up cranial plating on a flier can end the game quickly.

Excepting the Pyroclasm and cabal therapy the board is not largely tested. What is the best anti-combo measures in addition to therapy(which is good against control)?

-Chalice of the Void - it's a cheap artifact that shuts down petals, lions-eyes and the like can be put at 1 against solidarity and such hurts you alot more at 1.
-Sphere of Resistance - it's an artifact slows down almost all combo if you can get it in to play, can slow you down as well depending how early it is dropped.
-Pyrostatic Pillar - not an artifact, can hurt you a decent amount but combined with your clock can make it extremely difficult for you opponent to go off.

kicks_422

04-24-2007, 10:27 AM

I think the best anti-combo package out of the SB is Chalice and Pillar for any deck that can run it.

I also favor RBg when it comes to affinity, but with Dark Confidants instead of Myr Enforcers and Jittes in the MD. 2-3 Dark Confidants in play is sweet in this deck.

Shriekmaw

04-24-2007, 12:30 PM

My current sideboard for the deck includes the following:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The main deck changes that I really feel necessary is the following:

4 Darksteel Citadel (mainly b/c wasteland exists)
4 Myr Enforcers (this card is amazing in only every matchup)
2 Pithing Needle (this is probably the weakest card I play, but its good sometimes)

Gekoratel

04-24-2007, 01:40 PM

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

What is you opinion on Pyroclasm over Plague. Plague is slower then Pyroclasm and does not remove all their creatures unless you get 2 of them. A lot of the time an atog or ravager on board, I could win the game with a berserk, fling or pyroclasm. The most relevant creatures in the goblins matchup are Ravager Atog and to a lesser extent Enforcer(mostly as a blocker). Pyroclasm doesn’t kill any of those and I board frogmites out for them.

4 Darksteel Citadel (mainly b/c wasteland exists)
4 Myr Enforcers (this card is amazing in only every matchup)
2 Pithing Needle (this is probably the weakest card I play, but its good sometimes)

I could see 4 citadels although I think I prefer the versatility of nexus for control and threshold matchups.
I ran 4 enforcers recently in a tournament and anytime I drew 2 of them in the opening hand it was almost an auto mull.
Don’t really want to squeeze in p. needles, but I can see them in if I had more room

Shriekmaw

04-24-2007, 03:16 PM

I think pyroclasm is definitely something to consider in the board. The main reason why I do like plague, is because usually when it comes into play its game over for goblins. I do see pyroclasm as a more versatile card in a lot of different matchups outside of goblins.

The mana base that I do run includes 19 lands:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Tree of Tales
4 Whispers of the Vault
4 Great Furnace
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid

The main deck is pretty similar to your list:

4 Myr Enforcers
2 Atog
2 Berserk
2 Pithing Needle
3 Cranial Plating

I could see cutting the needles for the 4th plating and the 3rd atog.

I've been always a fan of pithing needle, but I could see it getting cut for those.

Let me know if you really find that pyroclasm is a lot better than plague in the board?

Gekoratel

04-24-2007, 03:53 PM

Shriekmaw

04-24-2007, 04:21 PM

I only run 18 lands making pyroclasm a slightly better choice as far as mana requirements go. I haven't tested plague against goblins so I’m not sure how good it is in affinity, but pyroclasm keeps them from building up to devastating a board presence and will let you alpha strike through with atogs and such. My deck is obviously more geared towards taking advantage of atog wins(with berserk, fling and 3 atogs). My friend plays goblins alot and he doesn’t fear plague nearly as much, because the disenchant effects get auto boarded in against affinity and it only truly wins the game when you have 2. I'm sure 1 plague with good board pressure is very bad for goblins but so is 1 pyrcolasm. The question is which one is better in more situations? and which one is more versatile?

When I played Affinity in Standard I always ran 19 lands, which worked out very well. Thats probably why I have decided to stay with the 19 lands. I'll try cutting my 2 needles for the 2 fling main deck to see how much I like it. I do agree that you do get more wins via fling and berserk which is something I want to try. I've also changed the plagues to pyroclasm in the board.

I'm not sure if Chalice of the Void is enough in the board to beat combo. Combo is the weakest matchup by far for Affinity.

Gekoratel

04-24-2007, 04:36 PM

I would recommend adding one fling and one atog, bringing it up to 3 atogs because atog is by far the best card with fling and berserk.

As for combo matchup I have not actually played against anything but aluren were I got beat by turn 4 alurens both times. I boarded in the 3 cabal therapies I had in the board but never saw them so not sure how much it effects it. I have 7 slots that can be dedicated to combo right now there 4 therapies 3 chalices, although I want to try sphere of resistance out, but no one around me plays any form of legacy combo so I cant really test these cards. Also against Iggy Pop Tormod's crypt can be boarded in although it has anti-synergy with chalice.

Shriekmaw

04-24-2007, 04:44 PM

I'm not sure what the metagame in Rochester looks like. During my time when I went to school at RIT, I didn't get a chance to play that much over there. Plus, I usually only come out that way for the bigger events. I would gear your board for whatever metagame your expecting.

I would probably have more insight when it comes to planning for bigger events with diverse fields, which also makes it less likely to see hate for affinity. Thats a reason why I don't play affinity that often over here in Syracuse, because they will hate on it after a few weeks.

Meeee

04-26-2007, 11:02 AM

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good board for RBg affinity for the Grand Prix my current board is:

2 Tormods Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge

Tormods Crypt’s are for generic graveyard strategies, threshold and Iggy Pop.
Cabal Therapy is for control and combo primarily
Sphere of Resistance is for combo
Pyroclasm is for goblins and possibly survival
Ancient Grudge is for the mirror, random equipment and P. Needles (mostly against thresh although anything that has them I'll bring it in.)

The above posts by Gekoratel were Jeff posting for me since were roomates, but i decided to get a an account.

Honoluluicecaps

04-29-2007, 01:12 AM

Still wanna start some discussion...

Looter-il-Kor over Cloud of Faeries?

Shriekmaw

04-29-2007, 06:09 PM

Still wanna start some discussion...

Looter-il-Kor over Cloud of Faeries?

In the Chalice Affinity deck, I would prefer on running Cloud of Faeries over Looter-il-Kor simply due to the untap 2 lands when the faeries come into play. This allows you to play more spells early game which can be very crucial when facing fast aggro decks.

What do some of the other Affinity players think?

Moczoc

06-03-2007, 07:35 PM

Hi, I'm trying to build an actual Affinity-version that contains Meddling Mage. Can you help me?

Creatures
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Meddling Mage
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Arcbound Worker
2 Ornithopter

Spells
4 Cranial Plating
4 AEther Vial
1 Steelshaper's Gift
2 Pithing Needle

Lands
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid
2 City of Brass

Sideboard (very rough)
4 Stifle
4 Absolute Law
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Plague

Explainations:
-> Looter il-Kor: amazing ... replaces Thoughtcast since some test Games. It has mostly the same Mana cost, provides card quality and can attack cranialed while having shadow
-> Steelshaper's Gift: my 5th Cranial, because I don't have the right mana for things like Fling or Berserk
-> Aether Vial/Pithing Needle: Good against Hanni Fish which is a plague in my meta :rolleyes:

ebbitten

06-19-2007, 10:31 AM

Sorry if this is a little off topic, but anyway.

I usually play group games, and one of my friends created an old school RG beats deck, and i just haven't been able to overcome it with any of my decks yet, it doesn't even look like a good deck and would probably fold to combo, but usually if any one is playing a combo deck everyone goes after them. So my question is: if you were to build an affinity deck (preferably UBr) that allowed skullclamps :smile: but was on a slight budget ( i'll buy ravagers, but not Fow) what would it look like?

puddn

07-06-2007, 12:21 PM

2 thopter in a surrounding with lackey???

do you try goyf? with enforcer they should be solid threatens

Shriekmaw

07-10-2007, 09:13 PM

I'm not quite sure what the last few posts are all about. Are you guys really serious when suggesting Tarmogoyf in Affinity? He is a very good creature that Wizards printed, but why would you run it in Affinity. I would consider a lot of other creatures before I would ever consider him.

It is best when going with your own personal build of Affinity to focus on the aggressive side. I believe if you make the deck to be as aggressive as possible will lead to the best results in the Legacy format. I really believe the format is too fast for players to get cute with affinity and go more in the aggro-control route.

Lets have some serious suggestions on optimal deck lists or some sideboard deck for metagames in your area.

Please.

puddn

07-12-2007, 09:29 AM

Iranon

07-12-2007, 10:17 AM

In my opinion, Tarmogoyf in Affinity is a mistake. It contributes nothing to the all-important artifact count (hence reducing consistency rather than improving it) and it doesn't look particularly sexy wearing a hat since it can be chumped by anything and everything. We even suck at getting him reasonably big... sure, our opponent might help but we could do much much better.

4eak

07-12-2007, 11:33 AM

Tarmogoyf is not a card for affinity (at least not maindeck, and frankly, I can't even see it sideboard). Goyf is in the wrong color for affinity, and more importantly, affinity generally wants to be winning before any cards are in the graveyards.

Gofy is designed for an aggro-control deck (with varying proportions of both aggro and control elements). It requires that things are hitting the GY on either side of the table. This is not the aim of affinity.

There are much better creature choices for affinity already: Enforcer, Confidant, Flyers, etc. You either are using synergy cards, evasion, or card advantage in this deck.

In my mind, vial affinity did one thing well: you wanted to see every card you drew. The synergy was fantastic, and the deck had options. By splashing or adding dissynergistic cards, affinity waters itself down. We should be careful in how we change the core of vial affinity. For every non-affinity type card you add (FoW, Confidant, etc.), you are removing an affinity-type card that had innate synergy with the overall deck. After reading this thread, I'm finding a lack of justification for some of the suggested substitutions.

I think a lot have just been "tweaking" affinity to make it seem like they added something innovative, when in reality, plain vial affinity was just stronger. Now, this doesn't mean there aren't innovations to be had... =)

peace,
4eak

Shriekmaw

07-15-2007, 11:32 PM

you should be a frustated player to be agressive like this...

if you liked affinity and if you tested it, you would see that there's a lack in affinty: it needs something more solid and constant, and goyf bring it.
The way with atog+bersek is completed against all the aggro-control decks (********, fish, etc.) which pack 4 FOW, 4 daze, sometimes counterspell.

Maybe you didn't test enough to consider new build or solution

I have tested various builds of Vial Affinity, and came to the conclusion that the build I currently play to be the best based on my own results. I'm not saying that my build is the best build possible, but it does put up results. I have talked with many different players about possible cards to add to the deck, but the general principle is that you can't play too many non-artifact cards.

I found out that the usually mix of non-artifact color cards to play is about 8-12. I currently play 11 color cards in the main deck that are not lands. I believe if you go above this general rule, you start to get inconsistent results during game play. The main reason this deck did very well in standard, was not only was it very fast, but it also was very consistent during the coarse of a tournament.

There is not another deck that I have play tested more then this one. I welcome new innovations into the deck, but I believe the general principles behind the deck must be followed in order to achieve success.

scrumdogg

07-17-2007, 05:17 AM

So in the course of exploring options within that 8-12 card limit, why can't green be explored? Goyf is going to be large, we might as well accept that because if your opponent has no graveyard that means either A) they aren't casting spells - which means you're winning or B) their board is so much better than yours that you are in trouble anyway. Green also brings options such as Rancor & Berserk, which I don't believe have been fully explored. BG Affinity could be quite exciting, it could be mediocre, it might be a complete bust...but until it has been explored no one here can say with final authority. Isn't that one of the hallmarks of what makes this format great - the ability (hell, the necessity) to constantly re-evaluate based on what gets added every four months?

puddn

07-17-2007, 06:16 AM

Pierre Canali won the Pro Tour at Colombus with 20 non artifact cards in his deck...
20 non artifact cards is really the maximum IMHO

4eak

07-17-2007, 08:48 AM

Goyf is going to be large, we might as well accept that because if your opponent has no graveyard that means either A) they aren't casting spells - which means you're winning or B) their board is so much better than yours that you are in trouble anyway.

A.) is the very definition of 'win-more' and B.) is the very definition of poor card choice. Goyf does nothing to help affinity win games it normally wouldn't win, and it weakens the synergy of the deck as a whole. Goyf belongs in an aggro-control deck, not an aggro-combo deck like affinity. If any viable creature is going to be large, it will be so because we are using flyers, modular, affinity-creatures, and plating to get the job done.

Green also brings options such as Rancor & Berserk, which I don't believe have been fully explored. BG Affinity could be quite exciting, it could be mediocre, it might be a complete bust...but until it has been explored no one here can say with final authority.

I'll be an authority on it then. Affinity should not be running green. Rancor and Berserk can be good cards in the right deck, but affinity is not that deck. Affinity is an aggro deck, but it needs very specific aggro cards to maintain synergy. Unfortunately, green does not provide affinity with the correct tools. If you run green, you'll eventually be sacrificing other colored spells in order to maintain an optimal artifact count. Frankly, Disciple, Shrapnel, Thoughtcast, and even Atog are all much, much stronger than anything green has to offer.

Isn't that one of the hallmarks of what makes this format great - the ability (hell, the necessity) to constantly re-evaluate based on what gets added every four months?

The hallmark of the format (supposedly) is that you aren't stuck playing any one deck and that the format is balanced without stagnation. Even if we are re-evaluating, that doesn't mean that optimal decklists (which won't include green for affinity) are wrong or need major overhauls. Affinity players will have to realize there is a very real hardcap to the possible innovations available to this deck. If anything, your point does more to show that affinity players are stuck with a more stagnant decklist and color wheel (even if they don't realize it) and they need to understand that this deck is a metagame call in itself.

The fact is: I could try putting every single card in the format in Affinity, but that doesn't mean these will be useful innovations. There is a difference between constantly re-evaluating a deck (being open to changes), and randomly trying bad ideas out in a deck. And, as much as I love the card, Goyf is one of those bad ideas for affinity.

Pierre Canali won the Pro Tour at Colombus with 20 non artifact cards in his deck...
20 non artifact cards is really the maximum IMHO

From what I remember, this was an extended deck and a surprise win to many. This doesn't mean he played an optimal decklist (or that he played it correctly...as from what I remember, he made several play mistakes). This is certainly not good enough evidence to convince me that 20 artifacts is the pseudo-maximum. I'll admit, I'd be willing to test a deck with 20 non-artifacts if a proper explanation could be made for them. But, honestly, I don't see this deck going beyond 12-14 colored spell slots.

peace,
4eak

kirdape3

07-17-2007, 02:32 PM

4eak

07-17-2007, 04:30 PM

kirdape3

07-17-2007, 05:33 PM

They didn't run Thoughtcast in their builds, instead running Berserk, an extra land, and a Terrarion.

I wouldn't play green because I would prefer to have a more stable manabase while also including blue. Four colors is a little much, and you're playing Atog from red.

However, I'm actually not convinced that Thoughtcast is as insane in Affinity in Legacy, simply because 'Draw 2 cards' is most often underwhelming and the mana isn't the most stable. Berserk is pretty nice, actually, both because it finishes the game off and it can be used as removal in an emergency. I've both had turns where Thoughtcast off of Chromatic Star has led to something completely stupid happening, but the same turn in the next game just ended up wasting a great deal of time that I particularly didn't have.

thefreakaccident

07-17-2007, 08:47 PM

so, what are the most common/competative color splashes in affinity?

I have seen color splashes from accross the spectrum in affinity do well,
a guy that used to frequent on of the local tournies I attend used to play affinity religiously and every week he would switch it up.

he ran BUW affinity with mages and therapy (and swords in the board), he ran straight red, straight black, straight blue and every other color combination in betwen.

I think he stopping comming for lack of ideas for it; dear god I hope he is not reading this, for fear he will now run green!

but seriously, green is unneeded, since in red you could run fling anyways.

Shriekmaw

07-17-2007, 09:05 PM

Karsten and Maaten ran green in their Affinity lists, specifically for Berserk in the main and Natrualize in the sideboard. They have combined (checks)...267 Pro Points, and finished in the top 64 in the largest Legacy event in history. Green is a viable option in Affinity, although I personally wouldn't play it.

I would just like the add that Geoffrey Siron got 10th at GP: Lille, and his list did run green for 2 main deck Berserk. I think green is a very worthwhile color to consider when playing affinity. I added green to the deck for main deck berserk and sb naturalize (now krosan grip). I went with the more aggro build of the deck and cut the card drawing spell in thoughtcast as I decided on running green instead of blue.

My main reason behind cutting blue for thoughtcast main deck, is that Legacy is a faster format where speed is more necessary in the deck then drawing 2 extra cards that usually ends up costing you a turn by not playing anything. I've ended more games by either berserking/Flinging Atog then my opponents would like to admit.

The sideboard options that green gives you is probably the biggest advantage that I like that blue doesn't give you. Your only playing blue for thoughtcast, which I just can't commit myself to do. I believe you have to go with 3 colors in a build of affinity. I would not run any more due to the fact of getting more inconsistent draws.

puddn

07-19-2007, 08:36 AM

The fact is: I could try putting every single card in the format in Affinity, but that doesn't mean these will be useful innovations. There is a difference between constantly re-evaluating a deck (being open to changes), and randomly trying bad ideas out in a deck. And, as much as I love the card, Goyf is one of those bad ideas for affinity.

so if i hear you, meddling was a bad idea when Canali won the PT... But in fact, meddling was a good, clever and subtle innovation even if ther was not synergy with the other card.

Many players can play sub-optimal decks and still do quite well. How much of their success with affinity was playskill, luck, and just the raw power and synergy of the vial-affinity shell minus the green? I'm betting the green splash was not the reason they succeeded.

on SCG, Karseten said that Roger Maaten had tested a lot the deck before the tornament so i don't think it was a sub-optimal deck... it seems that you think that only you have the optimal list of affinity so can you give us? it's a little bit pretentious to affirm that pro players played sub-optimal deck while implying you play optimal deck but without result....

The sideboard options that green gives you is probably the biggest advantage that I like that blue doesn't give you. Your only playing blue for thoughtcast, which I just can't commit myself to do.

i really agree with nick for the first time!!

blacklotus3636

07-19-2007, 10:51 AM

I've seen affinity piloted in legacy by some of the best players in the world and nothing has come of it. It seems to have alot of raw power but for some reason it just doesn't do well in large scale tournaments. Something has just changed though. Phyrexian dreadnought just turned back into a really good card especially for affinity. With dreadnought you can now do insane things like turn 1 vial turn 2 vial dreadnought into play and fling him at someone and it only gets even more retarded when you add berserk into the mix. Its actually possible to kill someone with dreadnought on about the same timetable as a combo deck kills someone. Not only does dreadnought give the deck much needed insane speed but if you choose to go blue adding stifle to get dreadnought into play more consistently then it also has the unintended advantage of shoring up the problematic combo matchup. No matter which way you choose to go with dreadnought in this deck it seems like a move in the right direction. I'll do some testing and come back when I have some results

4eak

07-19-2007, 01:03 PM

so if i hear you, meddling was a bad idea when Canali won the PT... But in fact, meddling was a good, clever and subtle innovation even if ther was not synergy with the other card.

You read my statement incorrectly. No straw-man please.

I didn't say his meddling mages were incorrect for the extended metagame at the time. If you will please re-read what was written, you will see that when I speak of Canali I am referencing the viable quantity of colored spells in his deck. This does not imply anything about whether or not one should run meddling mage in his circumstances.

What you quoted was not even speaking about Canali, although it certainly can apply. What you quoted was initially concerned with the so called "hallmark of the format" and adding Gofy to affinity. However, the statement has much larger implications, even if you misread and/or misapplied what I've said.

on SCG, Karseten said that Roger Maaten had tested a lot the deck before the tornament so i don't think it was a sub-optimal deck... it seems that you think that only you have the optimal list of affinity so can you give us? it's a little bit pretentious to affirm that pro players played sub-optimal deck while implying you play optimal deck but without result....

Okay...so you don't think it was sub-optimal. You didn't provide any really good reason why it was optimal either. My point about a pro being able to win with a suboptimal deck still stands. It is very much possible that they didn't play a perfect deck and still did very well.

There are two types of 'correct' builds from which we can understand the meaning of innovation. The first is the mathematically correct universal build (if we tabulated all possible combinations of decks available in a format, and played them at maximal skill, the outcome and success of each would reveal the universally best decks possible), and the second would be a strict metagame build. The only reason the second is different is because the combination of decks that would be tested would not include every combination, nor does it say anything about the skill of the players. This is relevant because it would allow certain decks that mathematically weren't as universally as good to become artificially better based upon other metagame factors like human skill differences and a smaller combination of decks to test. Innovation is the revelation (not the book) of the best build according to either standard. We, of course, seek the universally best in general, but we metagame on the assumption that everyone else will not know as much as we do.

I certainly think that green was wrong on both accounts, but especially on the 1st (which is what I had hoped you had gathered). Again, a pro putting up tournament results simply doesn't mean that they have an optimal build for either lenses of universal or specific metagamed innovation.

As for my build and my thoughts on the cards...I'm about 10 pages into the article, so please wait.

peace,
4eak

kabal

07-22-2007, 06:20 PM

44 people showed up @ this tourney: 4 SEA DRAKE TOURNAMENT 7/14/07 Hadley, Ma (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5938)

Vial Affinity came in 2nd place. Below is the build which looks pretty typical. The one thing that does stand up is the low land count, only 17 total.

// Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Glimmervoid
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
// Creatures
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Arcbound Worker
3 Ornithopter
3 Atog
// Other
4 Cranial Plating
4 AEther Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Thoughtcast
2 Fling
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

4eak

07-26-2007, 10:14 AM

Affinity (Raffinity/Vial Affinity)

Affinity is an artifact-based aggro-combo deck. It uses fairly powerful tempo enhancing effects such as the affinity mechanic (the namesake), modular, and highly synergistic artifacts/spells to apply a great deal of early game pressure. The aggro element is powerful and versatile; it has so many combat tricks that the deck often appears to act as a combo deck in the last few turns as it can often bypass many control features presented by an opponent (removal, blocking, unmanageable disciple life loss, etc.). Some might say that affinity breaks several of the general principles of magic as it possesses the ability: to play multiple extremely undercosted spells, to dodge pin-point control too effectively, and to put more permanents in play within the first 3 turns than a normal deck should.

The pivotal strength (and what some may eventually find to be a weakness as this deck is limited in evolution) of affinity is the raw synergy and tempo that exists in the deck. Affinity rarely draws hands that it doesn't want to keep, and nearly every card you draw in the deck will have a positive interaction with other cards in the deck. Generally, everything in the deck is relevant to your current board position, and cards often have a multiplicative effect beyond their initial perceived relevance and power (artifact + disciple + ravager + modular + affinity factor + etc.). Essentially, the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. When played correctly, the high average card relevance, synergy, and well-abused tempo mechanics gives affinity resilience and speed that is rarely matched by other aggro decks.

This strength, however, can act as a weakness. There is a common misconception about the deck and how affinity can evolve in a format. Many people fail to realize the problem with a deck that requires every single piece in the deck to maintain synergy. The problem with affinity is that it is very difficult to change the deck without impacting the synergy of the deck itself. So, for example, to add 4x Cloud of Faeries and 4x Somber Hoverguard, while subtracting other relevant artifacts, acts as a barrier not only to a proper mana base (and the abuse of it), but it waters the deck down, eliminating the very strength of its synergy. If you cut artifacts for non-artifacts, you decrease your average card relevance in terms of the average progression of your gameplan itself (aggro-combo). Even cutting certain artifacts for others can demonstrate a decrease in synergy. Affinity exists in virtue of its synergy. Watering the deck down only prevents affinity from doing what it does best. This means that Affinity has very limited sideboard options and few evolutions available. Admittedly, this misconception is fairly widespread because it is difficult to see the web of synergy interactions that each card helps to compose.

Taking into consideration this synergy issue, affinity will fail to evolve away from a very specific type of aggro-combo. For example, affinity, unfortunately, cannot be properly built as an aggro-control deck. To add control components is to weaken its architecture as an aggro-combo deck. Even further, removing an aggro card for a control card is more than just a 1 for 1 substitution in affinity. There is more than a 1 for 1 proportional change in functional effectiveness when switching from aggro to control. The change forms a much larger loss in the aggro-combo functionality of the deck than merely 1 card (as synergy multiplies an aggro card’s relevance), while there only remains 1 control card to be gained. Some may argue that the disproportionate loss is worth it. All I can say is: you have misassigned your role as the affinity player.

To the dismay of some, this two-edged synergy means that Affinity will never be an aggro-control deck, it only has one direction to continue evolving: aggro. Now, surely, some might point me towards some AfFoWnity decks and the like, but that doesn't mean these decks are optimal, nor as good as straight Aggro affinity.

You lose a lot more than you gain by choosing to use non-aggro cards in affinity. But, it isn’t just using aggressive cards, affinity requires a very specific type of aggro card. So, while Jitte may be a fantastically aggressive card to use (and versatile), Jitte is such a tempo sucking whore that the deck cannot afford to use it.

Affinity should continue to specialize and develop as an aggro deck if it wishes to further its competitive advantage. Developing and modifying affinity requires a great deal of justification. It isn't as simple as, "the metagame would suggest we use X" to take care of Y. Adding and subtracting cards from affinity is innately more difficult and complex to do correctly. The opportunity cost of running one card and not another is difficult to measure in this deck. Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t innovations to be had, but with a deck that revolves around so much synergy, the proponents of the status quo are fairly justified in denying the vast majority of “innovations and tech” that people prescribe. Just remember, it all adds up. All too often, modifications actually decrease the effectiveness of the basic shell of vial affinity.

Affinity is at a disadvantage in terms of how it can evolve. The deck structure is extremely rigid, and, unfortunately, that prevents affinity from becoming much better than what we already have. Throwing Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifles, Fling, etc. into this deck does not make it better than what it once was, and admittedly, that is difficult for many to see. Innovations will be small for this deck. It is a deck to fine tune, not revolutionize.

As some will not fully recognize there are diminishing returns and limits to substitutions in this deck, I will clarify a fairly universal principle for those individuals who wish to innovate and evolve affinity: There is a difference between a deck that can win a game and an optimal deck. Most every build posted can win a game or two, but some builds will win more than others. Optimal builds will have the best chance of winning (not just 'some chance'). Winning some is not the same as winning the most possible, but many fail to see this fact. This makes it difficult for many people to see why their tech is suboptimal or flat out sucks. They still win games in spite of their tech, not in virtue of their tech.

Assuming that affinity is built and played correctly, this once dominating force is really hindered by only two things in Legacy: 1.) Combo, and 2.) Amazing hate available. Each of these contributes to affinity becoming strictly a metagame deck. A metagame deck is one that can never be tier 1, but given the right metagame is very viable.

Affinity does suffer from the classic aggro problem of not being able to disrupt or race Combo effectively enough. Affinity does not defeat well-played and well-built combo decks in Legacy. You can run CoTV, FoW, SoR, and Therapy, and you’ll still get owned by a competent combo player. Watering your deck’s strategy down puts you turns and turns behind on the board (on average), while your disruption simply delays the inevitable. Even if affinity can curb the losses in the combo department, it will usually require major sacrifices against other archetypes, negating the reason to play affinity at all. In environments flourishing with combo, you probably shouldn’t be playing this deck.

The other reason why Affinity could never be Tier 1 in Legacy is due to the amount of hate available -- affinity simply can't live through it. For example, Energy Flux, Shattering Spree, and Pernicious Deeds are just a few exceptionally deadly tools against Affinity. Combined with several other cards, sideboards prepared for affinity would impose insurmountable barriers.

Affinity, at best, is a metagame deck. You choose to play the deck because you know your opponents are not packing enough hate and that they can't outrace you with combo. However, with that said, if the metagame does not anticipate the deck (and it currently doesn't in many areas), it can be a very powerful ‘rogue’ deck. Affinity is a deck that is underestimated by many, and in part, this is why the metagame would allow for affinity to be a viable competitor. Affinity can play like a tier 1 deck, it simply can’t afford to play in a metagame that anticipates it.

As a metagame deck, affinity can be tailored somewhat. For example, in many cases Atog is brokenly good, and in other matchups it can be terrible. This goes for a few cards. Keeping in mind that the deck should be slightly tailored (even if it can never be revolutionized), here is the basic vial affinity shell:

Basic Vial Affinity Shell

24 Creatures
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Ornithopter

18 Spells
4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtcast
4x Cranial Plating
3x Shrapnel Blast
3x Chromatic Star

18 Land
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace
3x Blinkmoth Nexus
3x Glimmervoid

In a vacuum, you’d want to start with the above shell. Darksteel Citadel and Atog are also very viable components of a basic shell, but their inclusion may require more justification. Again, given a specific metagame, adjustments should be made. Cards outside the card pool I’ve mentioned have yet to be properly justified.

The basic gameplan is to drop your hand in 3 turns, laying down the beats. Use your non-creature spells wisely to force a dominant position. Usually the game is won by an unblocked creature with either modular’ed counters on it or cranial plating, the use of the Disciple/Ravager combo, and often Shrapnel to seal the deal.

Card explanations from the Basic Shell:

Disciple of the Vault---I still can’t believe this card costs 1cc. 1 for 1/1 is fair. His ability is brokenly good. His obvious synergy with Arcbound Ravager (and Shrapnel) can turn his 1 mana cost into massive amounts of damage. I am not surprised to see his 1 mana cost turn into my opponent’s 10 life loss. This card is excellent in multiples.

Opponents often forget about disciple both in the deck/hand and in play. This gives you an excellent information advantage that will often surprise the opponent as they didn’t properly anticipate the effects of Disciple. Generally, it is best to hold back on playing Disciple until mid to late game if possible. While he is a lackluster 1st turn play, his late game vial-into-play can flat out win games on the stack. Top-decking this card can turn losing-board positions into winning ones.

Additionally, mass board sweepers can become deadly with disciple on the board, and it often forces control players into pin-point removal before they can sweep the board.

Arcbound Worker—A truly underestimated card. This is a high synergy card. He enables combos, enables affinity, and greatly assists ravager-based board positions. His power level is much closer to Aether vial (the other amazing 1cc) in this deck than most would think.

At 1 for 1/1 on the table he is fair. But, his artifactness and modularity allow him to do some extraordinary things for his cheap casting cost, making this card much better than 1 for 1/1. The death of Arcbound worker is not the death of 1/1 on the table (as long as you control another artifact creature). Not only can you get disciple triggers, but the modular ability allows your 1 mana spent to continue being damage on the board. To assume his removal or sacrifice is to assume that you spent 1 mana for 2 consecutive 1/1’s with multiple synergies in between.

For example, it is common for him to be sacrificed, and for the saccer to gain the advantage of the +1/+1 counter (Ravager) or 5 damage (Shrapnel), while the Worker’s modular can enhance another creature.

Arcbound is definitely a combat tricks creature with excellent synergy.

Arcbound Ravager—A card I feel has been overhyped at the perceptual expense of the other components of affinity (don’t get me wrong, I know this card inside and out, and I love it). Ravager is good, in part, because of the rest of the deck. With that said, this card more than pulls his own weight; he is arguably the core of the deck (although, the artifact lands would be a runner-up). He is much like Psychatog, only he is an artifact-board-based tog. He converts permanents into resources that are transferable (often unblocked) damage while abusing Disciple of the vault. Ravager channels your board position into damage based tempo. Assuming you don’t need your permanents after you’ve won, ravager make the most of your board by efficiently sacrificing into stronger board positions than any normal deck has the right to boast. The card should have cost 4-5 mana for what it does.

The stack tricks with this card can be as basic as sacking to live through a bolt, to sacking out for disciple triggers and putting modular on an unblocked creature, or even much more complex tricks on the stack. He gives the deck versatility. Ravager allows you to overcome a great deal of control elements in the game, negating the effectiveness of removal and blocking, while simultaneously creating a huge threat on the board. I would compare this card to Morphling (a card which I know well in MUC) in terms of its utility and power-levels.

Frogmite—Bread’n’Butter. You never play this for 4. Usually he drops for free, but once in a while you’ll pay the 1 or 2 to put him into play. 0-2 payed cost for a 2/2 Artifact creature with a very high actual CC is excellent (CC-based removal have difficulty with him). Frogmite is to your 2nd turn as what Arcbound Worker is to your 1st turn. This is a solid play, and it is part of bricks and mortar that binds this deck together in synergy.

Myr Enforcer—He is a fattie in Legacy and an aggro-control slayer. He is a clock, and he becomes castable generally on 3rd turn. He is a threat that the opponent cannot ignore. Myr Enforcer is to the 3rd turn as what Frogmite is to the 2nd turn. Enforcer comes into play earlier than a 4/4 creature should, and this is exactly the sort of tempo advantage that an aggro deck seeks.

I am amazed at the number of people that opt not to run him. He is an awesome drop 3rd turn or 10th turn, and multiples are certainly a good thing. When you find yourself in board positions that do not seek to sac out to ravager, Enforcer is the largest and often most relevant creature on the board. Enforcer can be seen as a stabilizing aggro card in this deck, allowing affinity to reach critical mass.

Enforcer does require a high artifact count in play, but this doesn’t make him not worth running. Just look at the efficiency of this card:

7 artifacts- 0cc for 4/4 artifact creature
6 artifacts- 1cc for 4/4 artifact creature
5 artifacts- 2cc for 4/4 artifact creature
4 artifacts- 3cc for 4/4 artifact creature
3 artifacts- unplayable.

At any point you would cast this card, he is mana-efficient. A turn 2, 3, or 4 enforcer will often win games. Think of Enforcer as being similar to Arrogant Wurm in UG madness, only better.

Ornithopter—Sometimes an underestimated card. 0/2 for free not only gives you early game artifact-factor, but it gives you something even more important: evasion. Ornithopter is damage over the top, and affinity desperately needs good ways to maximally abuse modular and cranial plating. This creature will win you countless games that non-evasion non-artifact creatures could not.

Aether Vial—Probably one of the strongest 1cc cards in all of Legacy, and affinity can abuse this card better than most. I’d call this the best 1st turn play in affinity. Paradise mantle is a joke compared to this card. Aether vial is a true tempo card (as demonstrated in several decks), it offers:

Uncounterable creatures
Mana Color Smoothing (no black/red mana available? Vial doesn’t care)
Mana Acceleration (each use beyond the first is all gravy)
Playing Creatures as instants (most importantly Disciple/Ravager tricks)
It is an artifact…and a first turn play at that.
Remains relevant from start to finish.

Thoughtcast—Card advantage, straight up 2 for 1, usually for 1 mana. This is 2/3’s of an Ancestral recall at sorcery speed. It remains in the top 3 card drawers in Legacy (at its affinity-based cost) as it doubles the efficiency of the 1 mana for 1 card draw ratio. While this isn’t a cantrip, primarily because it is played after turn 1 (usually around turn 3), it is extremely undercosted card advantage. Several people do not advocate the card, and I cannot stress enough: learn to trust your card advantage. Too many people don’t see the relevance of drawing in affinity.

It is easy to see where you don’t like Thoughtcast. The color and affinity factor are definitely constraints on its playability. And, you may even say, why waste the slot when I would rather have a threat in my hand than a thoughtcast? The difference is that Thoughtcast allows you to run only the most relevant threats, increasing your average card relevance like a cantrip, while also giving you a much stronger mid-late game because of card advantage. It is both card quality and card advantage. Thoughtcast is very similar to Ringleader in Goblins.

Card advantage is not mere card advantage in affinity either. Card advantage in affinity often translates into immediate tempo advantage as well. While other decks might be tapping out or expending very important resources to even draw cards, affinity can pay one mana, and in most cases will still have resources left to play what it drew. For example, drawing an enforcer and a land off a thoughtcast and playing them that turn has immediate effects. Most other decks will not experience tempo advantage in the same turn that they gained true card advantage. Affinity gets the best of both worlds with Thoughtcast.

This card is so powerful that it alone makes blue the most relevant color to have on the table in affinity (although black comes in a close second). If I drop a first turn land (assuming I might lose it), and if I have a choice, it will never be a blue producer. Resolving thoughtcast is that important.

Cranial Plating—The “other ravager”. While it can be mana intensive, this card wins games. Like the ravager, it turns each artifact on the table into 1 damage. Unlike the ravager, you don’t have to lose your permanents to reap the benefits. This card is so central to the aggro theme that it is an auto-4-of.

Cranial plays a similar role to Atog in that the equipped creature is a definite threat, one that often functions as a bluff-card or forces your opponent into less preferred positions. You will often equip your weakest creature (Arcbound Worker/Ornithotper), forcing your opponent to pin-point control the least of your creatures, while other cards like Frogmite and Enforcer swing through. And, like Atog, a single connect from an equipped creature might be the end of your opponent.

Additionally, cranial can play as a defensive card, making your blocker of choice lethal. This is a versatile card.

The instant equip is often overlooked by an opponent. It can switch to unblocked creatures before damage is on the stack, and that gives you an upperhand. Double black can be difficult to come by, however, Chromatic Star and Glimmervoid greatly aid you in reaching this color requirement.

Shrapnel Blast—Good affinity players know that this is not card disadvantage in a relevant sense. It is mana-efficient, niche-filling, and extremely aggressive. Generally, this card is used as a late-game finisher, but it performs finely as removal (taking out damn near anything).

To understand this card better, let us look at the mana and efficiency:

1R + Permanent= 5 damage

You spend two cards to get that effect. That is equivalent to something like adding these two together:

Lightning Bolt for 3 (R + Card cost of Shrapnel itself)
1 + Permanent for 2

Lightning Bolt is already good. But let us evaluate the last factor.

1 + Permanent for 2 could be compared to Shock. You spend 1 card and 1 mana and you get 2 damage. The difference is that this is colorless mana (and that is very relevant to a deck that can barely manage double color). Otherwise, it would look like RR for Shrapnel. A colorless shock is already very good. But, I think this card is even better.

When you use shrapnel you will generally choose the least relevant artifact on the board. How much is that artifact worth to you? That 5th land might be a dead card to you, right? That creature that is taking lethal damage on the stack might be irrelevant to you, right? The 3rd Aether vial could be useless. When you choose to sacrifice irrelevant cards, you are technically not even spending a full card. Or, the better way to phrase it would be: shrapnel’s colorless cost effect increases the relevance of the least useful artifact you control to become as good as a colorless shock. This is very, very good. It increases your overall deck’s average card relevance.

Beyond the general increase to card relevance and super mana efficiency, Shrapnel is to be seen as a true finishing card. 5 damage on the stack is 1/4th of an opponent’s starting life total. This card forces through lethal damage. Often, sandbagging a Shrapnel blast or two can be very powerful. An opponent will often underestimate the value of the cards in your hands, and will misplay without realizing you hold a lethal set of damage in hand.

Chromatic Star—1cc artifact factor with mana smoothing and triggered card draw (definitely an upgrade to sphere, except against leyline) is excellent. The ability to use it as artifact-factor and sac it later without activating for draw makes it a 1 colorless for 1 card (which is excellent). Add in the ability to smooth the mana curve, and you have a very powerful artifact. It can do some tricks, including announce thoughtcast->sac for blue, and even blind digging for the spell you need. Like thoughtcast, this is a relatively efficient card drawer that fills in the niches. Glimmervoids and Chromatic Stars are aiming to do the same thing in the end (although, they have different secondary characteristics), and star is a solid choice. In affinity decks with lower colored spell counts, this is a stronger card than glimmervoid, and the opposite for affinity decks with higher colored spell counts (12+).

This card shines against things like Blood moon and LD. I also love having another 1cc artifact to play first turn. But, do not be deceived: this card is not another land. It functions as a resource transforming device and artifact factor exclusively. Running 16 lands and 4 stars is suboptimal. Affinity decks should be running both Star and Glimmervoid.

Land-- The landbase is often misunderstood. The artifact lands in particular are fundamental to the deck's construction. You can run no less than 12 artifact-type lands (preferably 15-16 including man-lands).

What is an artifact land to Affinity?

-1CC of up to 12 cards or a -0.2 shift in the average CC of the deck (this is tempo)
+1/+1 Counter
1-4 Disciple Triggers
1-4 +1/+0 Cranial Plating
A very strong late-game target for the additional cost of Shrapnel blast.

People who play affinity with the mindset of running the fewest possible lands with the most spells possible are missing the point. The artifact lands might be subtle, but they are extremely powerful in this deck. So, while you can certainly win games with only 1 or 2 land in play, you will often fail to recognize what those 1-2 lands really did for you during the game. The best part about land in this deck is that land is never a dead draw. Land can always be put to use beyond mana production. This means that affinity, just in virtue of its land, has a higher average card relevance than would be initially expected. Don’t be afraid to run 19-20 lands in this deck.

Seat of the Synod, Vault of Whispers, Great Furnace---These are the holy trinity of affinity. They make the deck work. Darksteel Citadel and activated-artifact lands (Blinkmoth Nexus) are also useful in this calculation, but only the trinity is a guaranteed in every affinity deck.

Blinkmoth Nexus—An underused card. I can’t see an affinity deck playing less than 2 of these. Like ornithopter, nexus offers us important evasion. The activated abilities offer several combat tricks as well. It is important to note that Nexus is actually fairly difficult to remove, can keep counters on it even after losing its manhood end step, and was free to play (costs only a land drop). Additionally, nexus can be activated to increase artifact-factor.

Glimmervoid—Like the nexus, an underused card in affinity. Affinity, problematically, can be color-starved. While Aether Vial curbs the mana color inconsistencies to some degree, affinity is still reliant upon other chromatic mana producers.

You don’t want to be sitting on Disciple, Atog, Shrapnel, Thoughtcast, and instant equip Cranials because you don’t have the color available. In fact, without a proper mana-base to produce the rainbow, you actually decrease average card relevance in this deck. It is absolutely essential that affinity has the ability to use every single component of its hand as soon as possible.

The arguments against Glimmervoid would be that it has a condition to keep in play, it isn’t an artifact, and wasteland eats it. However, even with these negatives, the need to smooth your mana color curve is so great that Glimmervoid is still a worthy pick.

Glimmervoid smoothes your mana color curve very effectively and it can be used several times (unlike Chromatic Star). 1/5th of your deck is going to be colored spells, and you can’t count on having a Chromatic Star everytime you need one, but you can almost always guarantee that you’ll have an artifact in play. Additionally, it costs almost nothing to put Glimmervoid into play, unlike the star, and that means you can be using that mana to cast game winning spells. This is a minimum 2 in affinity, and 3 if you run something like Naturalize in the side.

The other staples:

These remain somewhat interchangeable with other components of the basic shell.

Darksteel Citadel—Depending on the metagame, this can be a solid choice. In a vacuum, this card is subpar. It would definitely be quite possible to see 3 of these in affinity given the right metagame.

Atog—The other, other ravager. +2/+2 per artifact makes him the fastest clock available, but at a huge risk. Often times, this card is a bluff card. People are forced to block him, while your other creatures do the business. Atog becomes better and better against decks with less and less creature removal. Because of the ability to use instant removal in response to pumping, the more removal in the game, the weaker this cards becomes. It is a severe let-down to sac out 3rd or 4th turn for a lethal atog, only to eat a bounce or StP before damage goes on the stack. You need to be very careful how you use this card, and you should be careful in what metagame you run him. If you don’t mainboard him, he is definitely a strong sideboard choice. 3 is the max in this deck.

Other Card Considerations:

Fling vs. Shrapnel—Fling is an interesting card. While shrapnel blast converts your least relevant artifact on the board to deal 5 damage, Fling has the problem often doing the opposite, and usually sacrifices one of your more relevant artifacts on the board. Fling can function like ravager/disciple at the end of the game, acting as another disciple. In so many cases, Fling is forcing you to lose your aggro-advantage on the board, and is thus strictly a finishing card. Shrapnel is much more versatile.

In my experience, flingm like Berserk, has been a win-more card rather than a card that will win you games you normally wouldn’t win. Usually, when I am in positions in which I have flingable creatures, where fling is going to be much larger than shrapnel as well, I’m already winning, and I would possibly be put in a losing position to even use the card. Shrapnel can be used in much different situations and its costs are much, much lower.

This is a fun card, but it is very suboptimal.

Dark Confidant—definitely a favorite of mine, but not in affinity. The card may be overhyped to some extent, not because it isn’t amazing, but more because it requires the right deck to work. Building a deck that abuses this card correctly is difficult. Dark confidant is really not a win-now type card, it does best in a deck that can abuse a one-sided howling mine. Affinity, which is a win-now deck (aggro-combo), is not a deck that should be running Bob. Affinity does not want the game to last long enough to make a real use of this card. Confidant, in my mind, has competed with 3 different slots in this deck: Myr Enforcer, Thoughtcast, and the possible Atog.

Beyond the lifeloss from a technically high CC curve, the fundament problem with Dark Confidant is a.) he is subject to removal and b.) he takes up the fundamental turn 2 (2 mana) slot. Affinity wants to be dropping its major aggro pieces turns 1, 2, and 3, not confidant. Confidants not kept in check can certainly give affinity a better late game, however, removal is a major aspect of the metagame, and affinity could have been using that mana to have just won now instead of later.

As much as I value card advantage, confidant is a liability and usually a loss in tempo for all too often minimal card advantage. Confidant’s advantage requires 2 turns. It will be, bare minimum, turn 4 before you netted card advantage. Compare this to Thoughtcast which can play for 1 mana on turn 3 (possible turn 2). Thoughtcast refills your hand when you need to refill and keep steamrolling (as you’ll have 1 more mana to work with, which is a major concern in the first 4 turns).

Myr Enforcer is a pure aggro card that comes down nearly the same turn confidant does on average (considering the color cost). 2/3-4/4 PT difference (depending on whether confidant can even swing or whether control would knock it out) on the board at any point in the game makes enforcer a stronger choice. Again, this is an aggro deck that should be forming aggressive board positions. Affinity is an instant gratification deck, and it cannot afford to let the opponent live even a few more turns.

Confidant may also compete with atog for slots. Atog, like enforcer, fills the role of creating an immediate board threat. Deal with it or die. Confidant cannot do this.

Somber/Cloud of Faeires—Non-artifact creatures that cost mana to get into play (even cloud requires it, so you can’t always just drop it off a thoughtcast). Thopter and Nexus are free, and they are artifact. No questions here.

Paradise Mantle—What about this card is aggressive? Oh well, a free artifact is nice. You have limited slots, and Glimmervoid and Star fulfill this role much better.

Umezawa's Jitte— Affinity has much better things to do with its mana, and the deck should be winning before Jitte becomes relevant enough to matter.

Chrome Mox—Bleh. I love fast mana and free artifacts. You’d initially think this is a shoe in for affinity. Play a few hundred games with and without this card, and you’ll see why affinity shouldn’t run it. The 1st turn tempo gain is not worth the 2nd turn (and beyond) tempo losses incurred by both card disadvantage and poor topdecks. Remember: Card advantage in this deck translates into immediate tempo advantage in most cases. Card disadvantage is essentially tempo disadvantage for this deck, and Chrome mox has a snowball effect in the losses it creates.

Essentially, affinity plays very well with very little mana. I’d argue that it is the least mana intensive deck in the format. It can accept mana losses rivaled only by Goblins. Tempo--using cards in your hand before you intially should be able to use them. If it cost 5 mana to cast something, and you cast it with only 4 land or less (or even no mana used), then you used some form of tempo-enhancement to play that spell—affinity does this sort of thing all the time. Resource trades (CA for Mana) aren't necessary for affinity to maintain a high tempo. You don't need tMox or Petal to accelerate your way into massive early threats, the mechanics of the deck allows you to do this already

As for sideboarding, I’m not in a position to say what each persons metagame looks like. Please consider the following:

CotV
Therapy
Engineered Plague
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Winter Orb
Sphere of Resistance
Atog
Mana Leak
Naturalize/Disenchant

Affinity is an odd deck. Half the magic players I know hate the deck (they remember its domination in T2). Why? Not only does it do unfair things (and it still can), but it appears that affinity can win without skill. For those who still believe this, you are correct if you are referring to how good this deck was back when it was T2 Legal. When it was originally created, a newbie or a pro could pick the deck up and destroy half the field with it. Legacy, however, is different.

The deck can be complicated to play, and the correct line of play is not as obvious as it would seem. Affinity is constantly evaluating the board position, its manabase, and card quality like a combo deck. However, instead of doing everything in one turn like many combo decks, affinity is forced to think over several turns. Good players do think several turns ahead, and combo decks, by nature, are constantly thinking: what card do I need to complete the hand to win? Affinity, however, often requires even more thought than that. Due to the decks power and versatility, there is a larger quantity of hand and board positions to be evaluated as it works over several turns. Affinity has to consider less redundant hands and board positions more often than most other decks I’ve seen in Legacy, and it is here that the pro is separated from the less experienced. When you run into new situations, being able to calculate what is best (rather than working from wrote memory) is invaluable, and affinity will often require such experience and skill. So, while you can definitely win with affinity without a great deal of skill, there are many, many circumstances in which a good deal of skill and experience is required to calculate the correct line of play. For affinity to be competitive in Legacy, it does need to be piloted a fairly skilled player.

Overall, a skilled player can feel comfortable playing this deck against any deck in the format with the exception of combo. In what is largely a creature based format, affinity is explosive, powerful, and yet versatile enough to have a way to win if you can find it.

peace,
4eak

Volt

07-26-2007, 12:30 PM

I sleeved up a list very similar to yours a couple months ago and started playtesting it. In those couple of months I've come to the following conclusions:

1. Myr Enforcer just sucks.
2. Atog + Fling is the freaking NUTZ.
3. Thoughtcast isn't good enough to justify running a third color.

With those things in mind, my deck has evolved into the following:

4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid
2 City of Brass
4 Aether Vial

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
4 Atog

4 Cranial Plating
3 Chromatic Star
3 Fling

It's very consistent and fast.

4eak

07-26-2007, 02:45 PM

1. Myr Enforcer just sucks.
2. Atog + Fling is the freaking NUTZ.
3. Thoughtcast isn't good enough to justify running a third color.

1.) Why does Enforcer suck?

2.) Atog + Fling are good cards, and obviously they work well together (I've enjoyed the 'combo' for a while). However, using these cards often requires you to overextend. It is easy to see where these are good, but I suppose it is harder to see where they are not as good. Even worse, both of these cards really only shine when you are in a position in which you are already winning or dominant. This is still a flashy combo, much like Stifle+Dreadnought, but it not one that is worth the sacrifices of consistency. However, I will say, I like the explosive possibilities. But, honestly, the odds of 3rd/4th turn Flinging a sacced-out board to Atog that actually connects is fairly low, and the mana requires are steep as well.

3.) Why isn't thoughtcast good enough to justify running a third color?

peace,
4eak

Volt

07-26-2007, 03:07 PM

1.) Why does Enforcer suck?

2.) Atog + Fling are good cards, and obviously they work well together (I've enjoyed the 'combo' for a while). However, using these cards often requires you to overextend. It is easy to see where these are good, but I suppose it is harder to see where they are not as good. Even worse, both of these cards really only shine when you are in a position in which you are already winning or dominant. This is still a flashy combo, much like Stifle+Dreadnought, but it not one that is worth the sacrifices of consistency. However, I will say, I like the explosive possibilities. But, honestly, the odds of 3rd/4th turn Flinging a sacced-out board to Atog that actually connects is fairly low, and the mana requires are steep as well.

3.) Why isn't thoughtcast good enough to justify running a third color?

peace,
4eak

Enforcer sucks because I can't consistently drop it on the 3rd turn. I don't like passing that turn with an Enforcer in my hand. Besides, a vanilla 4/4 isn't all that great in this format.

On its own merits, Thoughtcast is a good draw spell. However, I found that the manabase just didn't support 3 colors as consistently as I would like. I too often would be stuck with uncastable colored spells in my hand. That's why I switched to a BR build, replacing the Thoughtcasts with Bobs. I think Bobs fit very nicely in this deck, since your opponent usually won't have enough removal to go around for Ravagers, Disciples, Atogs, and Bobs. That presents another argument against Myr Enforcer, since flipping an Enforcer with Bob is bad times.

I win a LOT of games with the Atog + Fling combo. It's just ridiculous.

4eak

07-26-2007, 04:32 PM

Enforcer sucks because I can't consistently drop it on the 3rd turn. I don't like passing that turn with an Enforcer in my hand. Besides, a vanilla 4/4 isn't all that great in this format.

What if you cast enforcer on fourth turn average then, how is that not still good? How is a 4/4 artifact creature (which dodge's CC-removal) for nearly no mana cost not good?

The creature remains both cheap and relevant, and actually, relatively large against the average creature P/T. 4/4 is a win condition and a real threat from what I've seen, it is hardly "blah".

As for your consistency problems: What about your colored spell count, the mana curve of the deck, and the way you play an average hand in general--wouldn't these prevent you from casting Myr Enforcer as consistently? For example, dropping atog or confidant on 2nd turn instead of an artifact or two would definitely impact how you could play enforcers in your deck.

You'll need a better explanation than what you've given.

On its own merits, Thoughtcast is a good draw spell. However, I found that the manabase just didn't support 3 colors as consistently as I would like. I too often would be stuck with uncastable colored spells in my hand. That's why I switched to a BR build, replacing the Thoughtcasts with Bobs. I think Bobs fit very nicely in this deck, since your opponent usually won't have enough removal to go around for Ravagers, Disciples, Atogs, and Bobs. That presents another argument against Myr Enforcer, since flipping an Enforcer with Bob is bad times.

Vial Affinity does support 3 colors. This has been proven too many times. I'll admit, the mana base it isn't perfect (what 3 color deck is?), but it certainly does fine with the proper mana-smoothing.

Your findings will probably need more justification. Just from a cursory glance, I can see that your choice to run a higher colored spell count than the basic shell forces you into worse mana color curve positions, and yet, you fail to properly compensate in your mana-base for it. You beg the question as to whether your deck could support a 3rd color merely in virtue of the mana-base you use.

Not to mention: your deck would appear to have the same mana inconsistencies of which you believe you avoided by not using a third color.

Bob will need more justification. I outlined why I don't like him, perhaps you can start from there. Bob does not replace thoughtcast.

I win a LOT of games with the Atog + Fling combo. It's just ridiculous.

I've addressed this. First here:

I will clarify a fairly universal principle for those individuals who wish to innovate and evolve affinity: There is a difference between a deck that can win a game and an optimal deck. Most every build posted can win a game or two, but some builds will win more than others. Optimal builds will have the best chance of winning (not just 'some chance'). Winning some is not the same as winning the most possible, but many fail to see this fact. This makes it difficult for many people to see why their tech is suboptimal or flat out sucks. They still win games in spite of their tech, not in virtue of their tech.

And, secondly, I gave a summary as to why the combo itself is really not that amazing (because it really isn't consistent enough) in my previous post.

Telling me you won a lot of games with the combo doesn't mean anything. You could play 1 million games, and win 1% of them with your Atog/Fling combo, and still win 10,000 games (the point is exaggerated to explain the concept). 10,000 games is a lot of wins from Atog/Fling, but that doesn't mean it is optimal.

Show me why your choices are optimal, and if need be, please address the points I've made on these cards.

peace,
4eak

Volt

07-26-2007, 04:57 PM

I should have been more precise with my language. Instead of saying "I win a lot of games with the Atog + Fling combo," I should have said "I win a large percentage of my games with the Atog + Fling combo." No, I haven't kept track of statistics or anything like that. I'm speaking anecdotally.

I'm just not as impressed with Myr Enforcer as you are. A vanilla 4/4 beater isn't scary in a format with Tarmogoyfs and goblin hordes. If it had evasion of some sort, that would be different. And as I said before, I found it frustrating to have an Enforcer or 3 sitting in my hand because I was 1 or 2 short on mana/affinity count.

As for the manabase/color issues, yes, I admit part of the problem is that I run a relatively large number of colored spells. But I like those colored spells. I think they make the deck better. For the sake of full disclosure, here is the manabase I started out with, back when I was running Thoughtcasts:

4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid

Yes, there are things I could have done to help keep the 3-color scheme intact, like replacing the Citadels with Cities. Honestly, I just didn't see the point, though. I think Bob is better than Thoughtcast. It's a "must counter," or a "must kill now" creature in a deck full of "must kill now" creatures.

Iranon

07-26-2007, 06:09 PM

Enforcer is wonderful if you want it to shine.

I run a grand total of 11 non-artifact cards... 4 of which are Thoughtcasts. Getting Enforcers stuck in my hand is rarely ever a problem. 2 Paradise Mantles help as well, while providing incidental acceleration as well as colour fixing.

Because I have 49 portions of Atog food, Fling is simply not needed to get a relevant number of turn-3-kills.

Thoughtcast often enables explosive plays the same turn, and is easy enough to cast that it can dig me out of a hole. Dark Confidant is too unwieldy by comparison.

***

p.s.: The number of colours in Affinity is hardly relevant (dropping Citadel for the 4th coloured land type doesnt matter much); the total number of non-artifact cards is the limiting factor.

HdH_Cthulhu

07-27-2007, 04:37 AM

I think the versions with or without Myr Enforcer are great!

Also Fling and Shrapnelblast are both strong cards.

There are about 5 affinity decks viable in legacy and all of them are good.

Affinity Style:
1.) Classic with Myr Enforcer
2.) With Atog and Fling
3.) Paradis Mantel
4.) Somber Hoverguard and so...
5.) Dark Confidant instead of Though Cast

You could put 2 or 3 styles together or just run one straight way...

Bane of the Living

07-27-2007, 06:54 PM

Im glad Volt is so good at this game..

Myr Enforcer is just terrible in legacy. He's obviously good in a normal affinity deck that doesnt need to compete with a 4/5 for 2 or 10 goblins on turn one or even 10 zombies on turn 2. This isnt extended. A 4/4 for even 2 colorless mana is just not as good as it should be. He has no evasion and he's just terrible in multiples in your opening hand.

Myr Enforcer is the suck against Goblins, who can port/wasteland you, fanatic and gempalm your artifacts, and then just chump block the 4/4 vanilla all day if it actually gets cast. Tin Street Hooligan is never happier than when he sees this fat fool across the table.

Dark Confidant is the way to go and Thoughtcast isnt worth splashing a third color. Look at my last builds of Vial Affinity to see where I went with it before swapping to AfFOWnity. Far superior and much more threat dense. (which supports enforcer better ironically.)

puddn

07-29-2007, 10:18 AM

First, good job for your article, i think it took you a lot of time.
But, i don't agree with you about some points:

a) the list, in particular the mana base: no citadel which is for me the best first land for the turn 1, 6 no artifact lands when you knows that artifact lands are essential to develop your affinity engine (i can understand 3 nexus but no 3 glimmervoid), and only 18 lands when ravager eats them to survive in fights.
Then there are some details not very important like only 3 star(4 is better), 4 plating (imho 3 is better because it's slow) and 3 shrapnel but for this one i understand your arguments and it seems to be coherent.

b) God knows how much i like enforcer, it is excellent in raffinity, but the reason is that i prefer confident than thoughcast now... i explain:

the fundament problem with Dark Confidant is a.) he is subject to removal
for me it's a quality in this deck, no body will spent a counter against thoughcast but everybody will spent a blast against confident so it's a blast in less for your other creatures like ravager (one of your kill), disciple and a creature with plating (note: Like confident, enforcer is subject to removal like gemmpalm, sword to plowshares; the most played). If no body spent a blast for bob, then you should win thanks to bob's CA;

he takes up the fundamental turn 2 (2 mana) slot
No. If you have ravager or plating, play them (but in some match up, if you have a vial, you should play ravager via vial), if you haven't, play confident, where is the problem?

you said thoughcast > confident, i don't agree because:
- you are an aggro deck, confident is a creature so he is in your plan and always a thraten for an adversary
- in the worst case, you don't draw because your opponent blasts him but you save another creature (so a threaten) what it's better (imho) than drawing two cards (not inevitably 2 threatens) for one card. Else, confident does the same (or more) than thoughcast with an extra: a block, a fighter or a lightning conductor.

but you have to run enforcer....
If you analize the evolution of the metagame (with a lot of tarmogoyf now), a 4/4 in turn 4 (because you put it in turn 3 in 10% of the case) is not any more a good thing (for an optimal raffinity's list)
i don't want to repeat but bane of the living said it very well.

c) it's not a disappointment but a regret: you didn't analyze your match up with the deck :(
what are your stats against gob? threshold/goyf? combo? pikula?

honz

07-29-2007, 08:21 PM

@4eak: I am afraid i don't understand some of your choices. For one, the inclusion arcbound worker over atog. I know tog can be a liability, but a decent player won't sac their entire board if their opponent has an untapped plains (almost every deck with white has 4x StP). Even sacing a few extra lands / stars / vials / thopters to bait out that creature hate can do wonders. The only other widely played creature hate is diabolic edict, bolts, and sweepers which are all easy to play around. Also, tog + DotV is nice when ravager is out of reach.

Another thing i fail to understand is the exclusion of darksteel citadel. You should fear EE at 0, and pernicious deed, especially with their increasing popularity. Citadels really help against these cards, as well as possible waste-locks. I don't advocate running 4, but a couple can really help (plus they are artifacts).

Other than those 2 things, that is essentially the build i would run. I really have had bad luck running a 4th color for berserk / naturalize. These are great cards, but 4 colors w/o mantle rarely works out well for me. Cutting the thoughcasts has not worked well for me either...

Bardu

07-29-2007, 08:42 PM

Another thing i fail to understand is the exclusion of darksteel citadel. You should fear EE at 0
2, Sacrifice Engineered Explosives: Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.

4eak

07-30-2007, 10:13 AM

Myr Enforcer is the suck against Goblins, who can port/wasteland you, fanatic and gempalm your artifacts, and then just chump block the 4/4 vanilla all day if it actually gets cast. Tin Street Hooligan is never happier than when he sees this fat fool across the table.

No offense, but this is a terrible argument.

Port/wasteland is way more effective at preventing affinity from casting COLORED spells, such as what you've advocated: Dark confidant. Enforcer is actually much, much stronger is the face of mana-denial (in fact, that is one of the greatest strengths of "affinity").

Secondly, fanatic and gempalm are even more deadly against something like Confidant than Enforcer. Unlike most creatures, Enforcer actually lives through a lot of damage-based removal. This is an asset against goblins.

Third, Hooligan exists to hit the most relevant artifact on the table, and you just said that Hooligan is best used ('never happier') against Enforcer. Are you saying Enforcer, on average, is the most relevant artifact on the table? That sounds like you are actually advocating the use of Enforcer. While I'm advocating the use of Enforcer, I'm certainly not going to imply that Hooligan should be targeting him. Ravager, Vial, Plating, and hell...even possibly a vial or ornithopter would be much better targets.

Hooligan and removal do not make Enforcer less viable. Chump blocking is a somewhat lackluster argument against Enforcer, which remains a card that they are forced to deal with. Chump blocking means I'm winning the game in general. If I'm swinging into Goblins in the first place, then I am the attacker and Goblins is in a losing position.

Moving on:

I'm surprised how people assumed that I don't believe Darksteel Citadel is a viable inclusion in the basic vial affinity shell.

the list, in particular the mana base: no citadel which is for me the best first land for the turn 1

Another thing i fail to understand is the exclusion of darksteel citadel.

Did you all read what I've written? Here, this is what I said:

As a metagame deck, affinity can be tailored somewhat. For example, in many cases Atog is brokenly good, and in other matchups it can be terrible...

...In a vacuum, you’d want to start with the above shell. Darksteel Citadel and Atog are also very viable components of a basic shell, but their inclusion may require more justification. Again, given a specific metagame, adjustments should be made. Cards outside the card pool I’ve mentioned have yet to be properly justified....

...The other staples:

These remain somewhat interchangeable with other components of the basic shell.

Darksteel Citadel—Depending on the metagame, this can be a solid choice. In a vacuum, this card is subpar. It would definitely be quite possible to see 3 of these in affinity given the right metagame.

I'm not saying don't run Darksteel Citadel; I definitely see the need to run it in many cases. However, Darksteel Citadel does require justification (and this is to achieve). So, if you anticipate heavy wasteland and deed, then definitely go for Darksteel Citadel. With that said, there are several cases where Darksteel Citadel is unnecessary. The fact is: not every metagame requires Darksteel Citadels.

4 plating (imho 3 is better because it's slow)

Plating is the second strongest card in the deck. Taking a plating out is fairly close to taking a ravager out of the deck. If you are going to be spending mana in this deck, it should be on this card. You want to see this card every single game, it is an automatic 4-of...

you said thoughcast > confident, i don't agree because:
- you are an aggro deck, confident is a creature so he is in your plan and always a thraten for an adversary
- in the worst case, you don't draw because your opponent blasts him but you save another creature (so a threaten) what it's better (imho) than drawing two cards (not inevitably 2 threatens) for one card. Else, confident does the same (or more) than thoughcast with an extra: a block, a fighter or a lightning conductor.

It is clear that Affinity needs card draw.

Confidant is a creature, and he can beat down. Generally, Confidant never gets the chance to attack because a.) removal and b.) blockers. Confidant can fill the role of an attacker, but most of the time does not--if he is attacking, generally, you were in a winning position to begin with. Because of this, I've found the card to be a one-sided howling mine that: costs 1 more than Thoughtcast, is highly subject to creature removal, and requires 3 turns in play to match thoughtcast's CA.

Thoughtcast always draws. It is not subject to removal. More importantly, Thoughtcast draws NOW. Immediate draw means immediate game winning threats. It means I get that Arcbound Ravager now, or it means I get my Shrapnel blast or red mana source. The difference between drawing now and drawing later is absolutely huge in an aggro deck like affinity.

I know that Dark Confidant, left unchecked, can win games. The point is: he is too easy to keep in check. Having him removed isn't like having another creature removed: you relied upon that card slot to draw cards. Removal simply becomes even more relevant against affinity when you run Confidant instead of thoughtcast.

Additionally, we have to realize, if Confidant is left unchecked, then generally everything else on the board is left unchecked, and in that case, you were already winning. Confidant's CA is a win-more ability. Thoughtcast will win you games that you shouldn't be winning because it draws you card now rather than later.

Affinity needs to win the game as early as possible. Dark Confidant belongs in a control/disruption deck that seeks to extend the game. Card roles assign deck roles: confidant's role is not aggro, it is aggro-control. In order to abuse this card, your games need to be longer. An aggro-combo deck like Affinity should not be using this card.

I am afraid i don't understand some of your choices. For one, the inclusion arcbound worker over atog.

Removing arcbound worker is simply wrong. He is a fundamental first turn play. Please address what I've written on the arcbound worker. Additionally, I didn't say not to run Atog either if you noticed. However, when I do run Atog, I never take arcbound workers out for them.

Other than those 2 things, that is essentially the build i would run. I really have had bad luck running a 4th color for berserk / naturalize. These are great cards, but 4 colors w/o mantle rarely works out well for me. Cutting the thoughcasts has not worked well for me either...

I agree that running green is incorrect in this deck. As for the naturalize, please remember that we can easy run these in the side with Glimmervoids and Stars.

peace,
4eak

Volt

07-30-2007, 12:25 PM

@4eak: I'll admit, you're making some good points about Thoughtcast. I'm going to try to tweak my manabase and go back to the 3-color build. I'm not buying your arguments about Myr Enforcer, though. I found them to be pretty consistently weak.

Observer

07-30-2007, 03:03 PM

Hello everybody!

I just wanted to ask a quick question, which may be a little out of context...
So imagine you had access to gems like skullclamp (4), sol ring (1) and tinker (1).
Would you put them into the deck? (naturally only casually)
If so, how many and what would you be cutting?

Lets assume this slightliy modified basic shell list suggested by 4eak:

24 Creatures
4x Disciple of the Vault
2x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Ornithopter
2x Atog

18 Spells
4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtcast
4x Cranial Plating
3x Shrapnel Blast
3x Chromatic Star

18 Land
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace
3x Blinkmoth Nexus
2x Glimmervoid
1x Darksteel Citadel

Would it be possible to cut a land for sol ring?

Of course I would also like to comment on the discussion a little, apart from my question, which I know is irrelevant to the actual deck.

Concerning Thougtcast vs. Dark Confidant: I believe valid points have been made for both sides. To me Confidant is too fragile. The fact that he is a creature maeks him obviously easier to deal with. As far as I can tell puddn sees the following advantages: a "block, a fighter or a lightning conductor."

Concerning Dark Confidant as a lightning conductor: So he died instead of a future threat. How will you get that future threat, now that your draw engine is gone? >Top Deck mode?

Concerning Dark Confidant as a fighter: Have you actually used him to beat down on your opponent other than in a winning situation? Just curious, I haven't tried him out, but I would imagine there to be too many blockers to risk losing my draw engine, or many other viable attackers.

Concerning Dark Confidant as a block: This actually seems like an option. I see this happening in 2 situations: 1) You are losing: You are probably just stalling the inevitable. 2) You are in a damage race: Sounds like a good option, not much to argue here.

Actually he is black, so we do not go into a third color,that is a plus too.

Still, that does not beat the advantages which Thoughtcast brings to the table in my book. I cannot outline the advantages any better than 4eak has...

So much for now.

EDIT: I am really curious about Bane of the Living latest build. You are suggesting Dark Confidant instead of Thoughcast as well, but you give no reasons. But you make it sound like you have made real progress. If possible it would be very welcome, if you could share your experience!

zulander

07-30-2007, 03:13 PM

I don't know about tinker, but skullclamp + sol ring would definitely be included in the deck. -1 mox + sol ring, -2 atog -2 chromatic star +4 clamp.

Shriekmaw

07-30-2007, 11:58 PM

Hello everybody!

EDIT: I am really curious about Bane of the Living latest build. You are suggesting Dark Confidant instead of Thoughcast as well, but you give no reasons. But you make it sound like you have made real progress. If possible it would be very welcome, if you could share your experience!

I know that Bane (Nate) would have a different opinion then myself about dark confidant in Affinity. This is my take on the whole debate. I do not like splashing blue for thoughtcast in Legacy for Vial Affinity at all. I believe the format is too fast for the card and splashing blue does not add anything useful in your sideboard.

Dark Confidant is a very solid creature in Affinity and would probably replace my 3 Myr Enforcer slots in my current build if I decided to go with Bob. I feel that Dark Confidant is a better option than thoughtcast, I believe its slow in a lot of matchups currently which isn't worth playing. I do for aggressive speed when I play Affinity.

I believe thats the best strategy to go with in such as fast format, especially with all the combo and ichroid decks cropping up. I'm currently still splashing green for main deck Berserk as I'm a really big fan of that card.

What do some of the other players think?

aldaryn

08-05-2007, 06:26 PM

Hi, I'm a new member but have been reading for a long time. I was hoping for some more sideboard discussion with this deck. I have not played much Legacy beyond a paltry local scene but I am going to play at the championships in GenCon and I am between this and Threshold. It seems like this deck should be Threshold except for the problem of Tarmogoyf, and I played this deck a ton during Mirrodin Block so I am more comfortable with it. I am not sure what I'm up against, though, which make things like Cabal Therapy tricky. I am pretty confident in my main board, I feel like Bob isn't very good in this deck because he isn't guaranteed card draw like Thoughtcast and I like Fling as a finisher over Shrapnel Blast, but I wouldn't play more than 2. I also feel like Darksteel Citadel is very important. The only thing I am unsure of is Mishra's Factory vs. Blinkmoth Nexus. Anyway, my main board is

4 arcbound worker
4 arcbound ravager
4 disciple of the vault
4 frogmite
2 myr enforcer
2 atog
3 ornithopter

3 cranial plating
2 fling
4 thoughtcast
4 aether vial
4 chromatic star

2 mishra's factory
2 glimmervoid
4 darksteel citadel
4 seat of the synod
4 vault of whispers
4 great furnace

my sideboard is currently:
3 tormod's crypt
3 engineered plague
3 pithing needle
3 pyroblast
3 cabal therapy

i think those are definitely the cards to have in the sideboard, but i'm not sure on the numbers. i'd like to have 4 of them all, really. how important is tormod's crypt right now? it seems like the most likely cut, and pyroblast and cabal therapy seem very much like they could due to be 4's. most importantly i just don't know what to take out. i'd like some advice on sideboard strats against goblins, zoo (nothing?), threshold, various forms of combo, rock-style decks and board control / classic style decks (wombat, etc) and also what to name with cabal therapy against the various combo decks (iggy pop, solidarity, etc).

Thanks! Love the forum.

Aldaryn

Shriekmaw

08-05-2007, 09:53 PM

I wish you the best of luck at the Legacy Championship at GenCon. I wish I was able to make it down there for the tournament. I believe Affinity is a decent choice, but with all the combo decks going around the sideboard needs to be built in order for you to have at least a fighting chance after game 1.

I'm not a fan of Threshold at the moment b/c I feel it has lost a lot of its power when it comes to dealing with the more popular decks in the format. If you want to play a control deck, I believe Landstill to be the best overall choice right now. Affinity does beat Threshold, even with Tarmogoyf now. Tarmogoyf gives them a better fighting chance, but the matchup still favors Affinity in a landslide.

I wish you the best of luck and hope to hear a report on how GenCon went for you. Take Care.

aldaryn

08-05-2007, 11:08 PM

Thanks. What would you recommend for the combo decks? I don't know how any of them work as far as their spell-ramping engines, but I'm assuming they are all based on storm cards (empty the warrens, brain freeze, tendrils of agony). So would you recommend Stifle in the sideboard? Or should I be attempting to stop them earlier than that? What cards should I be naming with Pithing Needle or Cabal Therapy?

puddn

08-06-2007, 03:03 PM

Affinity needs to win the game as early as possible

Wow! 0_o?
So you want to race combo without atog (i didn't see him in your list) and no berserk? no sense
So you want to play quickly against aggro-control deck like UW/UWB Fish and ******** decks? Are you sure you can win against them with no hand at turn 3/4? FoW, counterspell, maybe daze, sword to plowshare, bolt, fire ice, etc..
I don't think that your list is with your strategy coherent

Quote:
4 plating (imho 3 is better because it's slow)
Plating is the second strongest card in the deck. Taking a plating out is fairly close to taking a ravager out of the deck. If you are going to be spending mana in this deck, it should be on this card. You want to see this card every single game, it is an automatic 4-of...

it's just a detail, not an essential point. Today maybe i play 3 plating, maybe tomorrow i'll play 4.

So your draw engine is only 4 cards, you can use each one time without the certainty to draw a threats, and each thoughcast isn't a threat for the opponent.
Then confident is a threat, he can do more than thoughcast, and bob x4 + chromatic star x4 is enough to be a good draw engine.
I'm going to answer to Observer:

oncerning Dark Confidant as a lightning conductor: So he died instead of a future threat. How will you get that future threat, now that your draw engine is gone? >Top Deck mode?

I don't play only dark confidant in my list ;)
to start i draw 7 cards like you with the same number of threats, if DC is killed it's ok i put my other threats and it gives me time to draw an other DC or to make more pressure

Concerning Dark Confidant as a fighter: Have you actually used him to beat down on your opponent other than in a winning situation? Just curious, I haven't tried him out, but I would imagine there to be too many blockers to risk losing my draw engine, or many other viable attackers.

DC + plating is good! With 4 DC + 4 chromatic star i have no fear about my draw engine

Concerning Dark Confidant as a block: This actually seems like an option. I see this happening in 2 situations: 1) You are losing: You are probably just stalling the inevitable. 2) You are in a damage race: Sounds like a good option, not much to argue here.

yes it's an option, not a very good but an option. Vial + DC in instant to block is a good surprise too

other essential points:
- worker is needed x4! no negociation possible
- Artifact lands are essential to develop your affinity engine, and in all the metagames you need citadel x4

Bane of the Living

08-06-2007, 08:46 PM

EDIT: I am really curious about Bane of the Living latest build. You are suggesting Dark Confidant instead of Thoughcast as well, but you give no reasons. But you make it sound like you have made real progress. If possible it would be very welcome, if you could share your experience!

I play Chrome Mox in my build with a lower land count. It lets me do things like accelerate into Engineered Plauge or drop turn one Plating/Bob.

Turn one Bob is amazing and surprizingly so is turn one Plating. You want to get it online before Daze sometimes.

Chrome Mox is great in the Black Red build since you only have the two colors of cards to imprint and cast, making it more usefull and hitting double black for plating much more easy.

Mox is one of the reasons I opt to run Shrapnal Blast over Fling. I dont like that fling sets you up for 2 card disadvantage. Fling also needs Ravager/Tog to shine when Blast only needs something brown and isnt needed as a finisher.
Reactive reach is amazing.

Confidant is way better than Thoughtcast for a number of reasons. It eats a Swords to Plowshares for you, which Thoughtcast cant do. This seems bad since you might not get to draw cards but Thoughcast can likely get countered regardless. If your opponent shoots down Confidant your Disciple and Ravager race out of the floodgates unscathed.

He's another reason to have Vial in the deck. I always felt Aether Vial was lacking in the deck with only 3 tog 4 rav to max it on. We dont have matrons and Ringleaders to fix the vial with appropriate goblins so we rely on what we have each game. Confidant is vial friendly and can get your card advantage online uncounterably which cant be done with Thoughtcast. Confidant doesnt need affinity to be played cheap and that can be an issue when your restarting the game (Deed) or not chaining artifacts well. (no vial/thopter ect)

Confidant also wears Plating which is such a big deal its not funny.

The only possible downside to playing him is taking seven from Enforcer but if your still playing these your in trouble anyways. Dont even get me going on how bad Enforcer is.

Always play Nexus over Factory. Flying makes a world of difference when your playing equipment that gives a guy +8/+0.

TheMagicWizard

08-15-2007, 08:00 PM

Bane of the Living

08-15-2007, 08:34 PM

I descided to play with confi instead of splashing blue for Thoughcast. So it is realy nessesary to run Mox, he makes the decks extremly quicker and is also a very good target for Shrapnel Blast.

So here is my list:

// Lands
4 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
4 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
3 [MR] Atog
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [10E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
3 [10E] Chromatic Star
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [MR] Shrapnel Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

Some critism espacially to the Sideboard would be realy nice. :smile:

Your build looks great and probably mirrors mine. Im guessing you dont have any Badlands but thats not a huge deal. I think I had..

-4 Springs
-1 Worker

+2 Badlands
+1 Nexus
+2 Citadel

Your sb looks good but Id suggest Tormods Crypt over Jitte since it can be a very slow card for the deck. Crypt is needed to fight Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid if they're part of your meta.

Galroth

08-16-2007, 04:14 AM

To those who are experienced with the black/red build of vial affinity:

I'm considering building this deck as I've had a fun time playing it online. What I'm wondering is how it fairs in the current meta. What matchups does it struggle with, which are better, that sort of thing.

I really like the list recently posted by MagiWizard and Bane. A few questions:

1) Why not play lotus petal over chrome mox? Are multiple activations really important? I would guess that it's only particularly important with cranial plating. In contrast are you usually able to pitch for the right color without it taking a severe toll?

2) Is four ornithopters optimal? I don't imagine seeing double in the opening hand is that useful... or am I wrong? If you dropped to three what do you think you'd add in its place?

3) I thought cabal therapy AND duress were pretty standard for the sideboard. Why is duress missing? Are crypts or other cards that more important?

TheMagicWizard

08-16-2007, 04:37 AM

@Springs: It hast the little advantage, that you cant be killed easily by Goblin King. OK the biggest advantage is the price, but i think i never lost a game because of Pain Lifelose.

@Crypt: I think Ichorid.dec is hyped, so i decidet not to play them. I dont know if they are realy nessesary agains NQG

@Jitte: It gives you a change in the middgame agains gobbos, which this deck realy needs. Of course you can also ad SoFaI, but I dont know if its better than Jitte, bcause Jitte can also gives you Life, which is in this Matchup better than it sounds

1) Why not play lotus petal over chrome mox? Are multiple activations really important? I would guess that it's only particularly important with cranial plating. In contrast are you usually able to pitch for the right color without it taking a severe toll?
The big adavantage is: He stays in the game!!! Realy you need his mana over 2-3 turns too play you hand mainly in the Ravager build. What would you do with a CC2 hand and land + Pedal?

2) Is four ornithopters optimal? I don't imagine seeing double in the opening hand is that useful... or am I wrong? If you dropped to three what do you think you'd add in its place?
In the 2coloured build i have enough of room to support 4 of them. With Plating (and Jitte in SB), they are more important then they looks. And he can handle first turn Lacey.

3) I thought cabal therapy AND duress were pretty standard for the sideboard. Why is duress missing? Are crypts or other cards that more important?
To much Control/Combohate and you dont have the B mana everytime. But they sounds everytime good, maybe i will test it. :smile:

Please clean up your grammar. This post is difficult to read. If English is your second language, we can make exceptions, but at least warn people that your English is not the greatest.

-PR

Shriekmaw

09-03-2007, 02:53 PM

Soto

10-04-2007, 11:13 AM

NECRO!

I'm pretty sure the deck is playable at the moment. I haven't play tested or anything but it looks like it. Combo is relatively on the low and it walks all over most aggro decks because of its speed.

What I was wondering was : Is the new Lorwyn card Springleaf Drum playable in legacy affinity?

cheddercaveman

10-04-2007, 12:34 PM

I haven't posted a list in quite a while. Here is my most updated list that I've been working on. The sideboard is mostly geared for the combo matchup since that is by far the weakest.

Updated Vial Affinity:

4 Whispers of the Vault
4 Tree Of Tales
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ornithopter
3 Cranial Plating
3 Atog
2 Berserk
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

SB

1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroclasm
4 Chalice of the Void

I believe this is a very good deck if you can avoid the combo matchups since they are pretty bad. At least the sideboard gives you a chance.

Ok, while I think this deck tends only to be so-so when I see people playing it, I would like to point out that Tarmogoyf has NO BUSINESS in this deck. Yes its an amazing (broken) creature, but it doesnt belong in everything. Its not an artifact. Its not drawing more artifacts. No reason to play it. Its only going to slow a deck like this down, not speed it up. In its place I'd highly suggest maybe paradise mantle or springleaf drum (when its legal). Or if you want to play blue the affinity draw spell i cant think of

slobad23

10-04-2007, 01:19 PM

BreathWeapon

10-04-2007, 07:41 PM

I don't know if this is still a deck worth picking up to be honest. It's just the same as it's always been in legacy - when people don't expect it you can pull a few wins from nowhere... but it is so easy to hate out.

that to one side though - i think that Thorn of Amethyst might be a nice inclusion to the sideboard. I have been liking sphere of resistance more and more as ways to get around combo decks. This seems to just be better for a creature deck. of course some things will cost that one more - but not all of them.

I will be testing this is all my decks that plan to win with creatures.

As long as it continues to man-handle aggro-control and control, I think it's a solid metagame choice. As soon as Illusionist and Ichorid pushed storm combo out of the format, I picked up R/b Affinity with 4 MD Tormod's Crypt, and I have enjoyed a lot of success with it so far. Hate isn't much of an issue, because it's so far off of people's radar.

Shriekmaw

10-04-2007, 08:06 PM

Ok, while I think this deck tends only to be so-so when I see people playing it, I would like to point out that Tarmogoyf has NO BUSINESS in this deck. Yes its an amazing (broken) creature, but it doesnt belong in everything. Its not an artifact. Its not drawing more artifacts. No reason to play it. Its only going to slow a deck like this down, not speed it up. In its place I'd highly suggest maybe paradise mantle or springleaf drum (when its legal). Or if you want to play blue the affinity draw spell i cant think of

I have to disagree with the reason why Tarmogoyf doesn't belong in the deck. At first, I was skeptical on why would we add that creature into affinity, but the more I played with the card the more I like it. Honestly, 2 mana for basically a 5/6, you really can't go wrong. I agree its not a artifact, but my non-artifacts slots right now is at 10 which is the norm. I usually try to keep in anywhere from 8-12 as thats the number I found to work the best over the years of playing this deck in standard, extended, and legacy.

I basically have drop myr enforcer for tarmogoyf, because its almost always better than an enforcer to have out. I understand you can drop enforcers a lot faster into play, but those are god hands which you don't often see.

I would like a intelligent discussion on the reason why tarmogoyf should or should not be in the deck. I play a lot of color fixing, so colored mana is rarely a problem for my build.

Let me know what you guys think?