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f|i[p]
01-07-2008, 11:39 AM
I have been playing with angel stax and armageddon stax for a long time now, I love the prison archetype and have been researching, tweaking and trying to improve the deck if possible.

I have always had problems with geddon stax, because of card draw and consistency issues.Aggressive Mulligan is a must, but even with great starts, at times we just hit a point were we are not drawing anything significant.And wanted a draw engine or at least something that would help me dig a little deeper. I have tried blue splashes but I don't think it works for me.

I have also been reading Sun tower threads for a long time checking and studying what makes it a good deck as well.

Alas I have incorporated the 2 decks together, and I think its more consistent in some ways than the mono white variant.It will need more testing ofcourse.

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The list

Lands: 24

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishras factory
2 Windswept heath
4 savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy

3 Magus of the tabernacle

3 Armageddon
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life from the loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sylvan Library
2 Words of Wilding

Sideboard:

1 Magus of the tabernacle
1 Armageddon
1 Words of wilding
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Krosan grip
3 Engineered explosives
2 Tsunami
2 open slots


REASON FOR ADDING GREEN:

My main reason is for adding consistency, Card draw or card selection. To be able to dig a little deeper makes a big difference to the deck itself.

Sylvan Library: thus I can dig deeper and add consistency to the deck as a whole.

Words of wilding : this is an excellent win condition. 2 tokens a turn... or more if you have more libraries out. Its also good with smokestack as you can up the counters to 2 and not having to sac anything at all per turn.

Krosan grips: This helps a lot with deeds going around

Tsunami: Helps against landstill, Thresh and anything blue based


There are other cards worth considering for the sideboard.

Compost
Choke
Perhaps even exalted angel

and IM sure there are many more out there that I haven't really seen yet.

The mana base might need more work: maybe go up to 25 but I will have to test it more.

As for the matchups:

I haven't gone into specifics with the matchups yet but, I am quite positive that it will improve most match ups, at the least a slight improvement.

OTher things you might question:

Magus of the tabernacle and words of wilding: yes they do not entirely work together perfectly, but as soon as you get the library words going and know you can hold the fort, you can sac magus and start the beat down.

Sideboard is quite general and you can tweak it accordingly.

The list needs work, but Im quite happy with it so far. and would like to ask for help or suggestions, to be able to improve the deck or at least dismiss it as mediocre compared to suntower and Armageddon stax.

Metaknight
01-07-2008, 12:49 PM
I'm curious as to how the one of Flagstone is going for you? Now I'm not a stax expert, nor do i claim to be, but that being said, i have played the deck a bit, including in tournament environments, and it seemed to me that Flagstone was amazing in the deck and i never didn't want to see them. Them in combination with geddon is amazing, and i'm aware you are running 3 Crucibles, and a one of life, but in my playing i loved them. I'm also curious about the one of Life. Does it come enough to be worth the slot, or do enough to be worth it. Although, it combined with library seems pretty tech. over all though i like the deck. I to have tried many a splashed in the deck to try and make it better, and eventually i just gave up, but i like this one.

The Wes
01-07-2008, 01:43 PM
I like the deck overall but I'd also like to see more flagstones. I've played w/b stax for several months now and like Metaknight said they are almost always useful to have(and you can drop a second one to fetch out that elusive 2nd color). Horizon canopy as a 1 of seems like the right number for when I've been using it. I think from experience that 4 wastelands might be a bit too much. Maybe -1 wasteland and -1 smokestack for +2 flagstones. I might even be tempted to cut the 2 Windswept heaths for a basic plains and forest. This would allow you run suppression fields sb without as much trouble.

f|i[p]
01-07-2008, 10:58 PM
As for the land base they are still currently under construction, I understand as I too love flagstones, but I can't seem to fit it in.. I already have 24 lands, and thats very minimal.

I like the 2 fetches in there.. as at times I can reshuffle the deck, when i cant seem to get what I would like with library. Its like brainstorm with fetch lands.

As for cutting wasteland, I think Im happy with 4 in the deck. I concentrated on delaying the opponent, rather than helping myself recover with an armageddon quickly. Specially now that most people are running thresh, landstill, and other multi colored decks, Id love to see wasteland as a 4 of, specially with life from the loam and crucible.

Although we can alter the land base easily,

If I was going to go the 3 flagstone route,

I would alter my win conditions as well,

ill most probably go:

3 smokestacks
2-3 magus of the tabernacle
2 exalted angel
2-3 armageddon
2 words of wilding

raharu
01-07-2008, 11:16 PM
I think that I would go wth 2/2 split between Crucible and Loam, simply because they do the same thing with different voulnerabilities. I would also consider finding some room for Exploration, seing as it wouldlet you A) use 2 Wastelands a turn/ play a land and a Wasteland, and B) run a few cycling lands/ Horizion Canopy to get you some late game draw, since that was one of the reasons that you splashed green, yes?

f|i[p]
01-08-2008, 02:01 AM
I think that I would go wth 2/2 split between Crucible and Loam, simply because they do the same thing with different voulnerabilities. I would also consider finding some room for Exploration, seing as it wouldlet you A) use 2 Wastelands a turn/ play a land and a Wasteland, and B) run a few cycling lands/ Horizion Canopy to get you some late game draw, since that was one of the reasons that you splashed green, yes?


I will have to test the 2/2 split between crucible and loam, they have their own advantages and disadvantages. 3/1 crucible loam works good enough.Loam is too slow to consider as a 2 of i think. But since loam dredge seems good with library,I will test this out.

@ exploration.It may possibly fit the deck if I had more empty slots or a different play style, but as for me, there is nothing I can take off for exploration, nothing to trade for it.It will be hit by chalice @1 which we almost always want to be putting down first turn. I think exploration just looks good and sounds good, but doesn't really suit this decks play style. Even sun tower never opted for exploration.

@cycle lands, its a No No. I would never want to draw cycle lands in this deck. It makes the deck slower,and more reliant on loam. I didn't put loam as a 2 of because I think it is too slow.

f|i[p]
01-08-2008, 06:51 AM
After playing around 10 games against goblins, I have concluded that:

with the old list match up is aroudn 60-50% against goblins.

1]Sylvan library is very valuable.It helps the deck so much that It has to be a 4 of.

2]Words of wilding is kinda situational, at times it came in too late and others it couldn't do anything without library.

Mana base:

+2 flagstones
+1 mishras factory
+1 basic plains

-1 Wasteland
-2 fetchlands
-1 G/w mana land

Win conditions:
+1 magus (this depends on the metagame (as mine is full of aggro))
+2 exalted angel

-1 smokestack
-2 words of wilding

I may be inclined to even lessen smokestack to 2 copies, and maybe add another land or another angel depending on how testing goes.

Here, I will stick more to green as a splash:

the current list

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Mishras factory
1 Plains
4 savannah
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Magus of the tabernacle
2 exalted angel

3 Armageddon
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life from the loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Sylvan Library

Sideboard is always metagame dependent
Krosan grips are always a must as well as tsunami's or choke which ever you prefer.

I will do more testing again and update the list if I can.

Im even thinking if I can sneak in hoofprints of the stag in the list. Its less dependent on library.

JDunkin00
01-10-2008, 08:03 PM
I think that I would go wth 2/2 split between Crucible and Loam, simply because they do the same thing with different voulnerabilities. I would also consider finding some room for Exploration, seing as it wouldlet you A) use 2 Wastelands a turn/ play a land and a Wasteland, and B) run a few cycling lands/ Horizion Canopy to get you some late game draw, since that was one of the reasons that you splashed green, yes?

No 1 CC spells belong in Stax. We almost always set chalice for 1 Asap. 2 CC is questionable as well. I do commend the trying out of words here as was explained rampin stax to 2 without fear but when you run all permanents capable of being sacked anyway you simply need to get crucible online then sac a land and whatever you drew last turn other than E Angel or Magus.

f|i[p]
01-10-2008, 08:55 PM
After some more testing, I was actually even thinking if splashing is worth it, If I Only splashed for library, it doesnt seem like its worth it at all... Although Im only getting to test the deck against goblins, Im having second thoughts.

I have also tried Hanni's build and just tweaking it a little,which is quite interesting, Adding blue and a splash of green to the mix. Although I am not sold on it yet.. Im just trying out splashes to see and figure out it its really worth it..

Heres the list with a minimal green and more blue in it that I am testing

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishras factory
1 Plains
1 savannah
3 Tundra
2 Floodedstrand
1 Academy ruins

4 Magus of the tabernacle
2 exalted angel

2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of war
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life from the loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Gifts Ungiven

Heres the catch, Its nice to have Gifts in the deck, as its almost an E. tutor for all your land cards and artifacts, although they are going to be a turn delayed.

Gifts for loam, academy ruins, Tabernacle(wasteland, mishra's factory or a kill condition), any Artifact. This is usually what you loam for 1st time around. You usually dredge loam next turn,if you dont have a crucible online, get which land you need. ruins to recur artifacts, tabernacle if your faced with creatures.

What I like about gifts is that its an instant tutor that will get you anything you need. Either to complete your lock components or kill conditions.

Intuition was brought up in sun tower recently, it does go in a turn earlier,and you can get cards of the same name to ensure you have at least 1 card of it. But I like the extra card draw. If you can see , thats one reason I split cards, I have geddons and ravages of war, at least I can get 2 of that kind, Ghostly and propaganda.

Sun tower looks like a good deck with intuition,now they can make sure their lock components are complete. But I can never seem to accept the loss of magus of the tabernacle and armageddon which I think are game winners.

You can even make the deck a little more like a toolbox. Giving you more cards in the sideboard.What I like about gifts(or intuition) and loam, is that it gives you recurring threats(artifacts that is). Tormods crypt every turn. E.explosives every turn. Although it makes you draw the same thing over and over.


This makes the deck more consistent midgame-lategame. Only means that I get higher chances and the ability, to get real threats instead of drawing into land or more chalice and trinisphere when I dont really want them.

Its a very interesting build and its very tempting to try out.I was even thinking of switching exalted angels to an artifact creature kill, that way I can recur the artifact creature as well.

Fred Bear
01-11-2008, 10:57 AM
f|i[p],

I really like some of the things you are trying with the Stax shell, but I wonder if you have noticed any significant change in bad match-ups? I see that you are presenting a lot of data on the Goblins match-up, but I would probably report the straight White Stax match-up at favorable (matches at 60-40 to 65-35 overall - differences depending on how you have the stax sideboard configured) anyhow. It's good to see you aren't losing ground in a good match-up, but how does this compare against something like Landstill (I have always had the most trouble with builds that include Pernicious Deed)?

I have always found Stax to have a solid mid- and late-game, provided you get there. I have recently been testing more ways to make the early-game more consistent, which was what led me to Sylvan Library in the first place...

I started tinkering with splashing green into my Armageddon Stax builds during testing for GP:Columbus last year. And it is very good, the drawbacks to it were mainly that a) you really want a shuffle effect to accompany it so that you don't pay 8 life to look at more cards, and b) it did not significantly improve any bad match-ups over straight White Stax.

I like the idea of Life from the Loam, but I think it automatically requires at least a splash of blue for Academy Ruins. Without Ruins, Stax would be strictly worse than X Land.dec (at least I would think that on the surface) since you would always run the risk of milling unrecoverable win conditions into the graveyard. Stax must cast spells to win, otherwise you would just play Lands.dec. So, by including those two cards and increasing to a 3-color land base, I can't really see how anything's been done to improve any 'bad' match-ups (that's not to say that you have significantly weakened any either). I mean, Ruins will help you rebuild after a devastating Deed (or Disk), but trading U1 and a draw each turn with a mana hungry deck suddenly starved for permanents is not going to help put pressure on a deck like Landstill (you also can not return Suppression Fields, Ghostly Prisons, or Sylvan Library, of course). I think this engine would be infinitely better if you had a way to return a card (Ruins), draw an additional card (Library?), and play at least 2 permanents a turn (lots of mana) after a Deed, but I don't know that that's really very realistic.

That was how I justified nixing Loam to myself (not saying I was right or wrong, just saying that at that point I quit testing it). I have long thought that Academy Ruins falls into 'danger of cool things', but that has not stopped me from testing it.

*Aside - When I test a card, I am typically looking for an improvement in bad match-ups without losing significant ground in good/even match-ups. I evaluate the change based on actual performance, but I am careful to note conditions where it would be strictly better or strictly worse. I mention this because...

I found that Academy Ruins is a situationally awesome card. Unfortunately, in almost every situation where Academy Ruins shines - either a) almost any other card from the typical stax selection would have performed approximately equally well or b) Stax was already winning and being able to re-cur a card a turn was overkill. On the flip side, in nearly all the situations where its performance was underwhelming - I did not want to trade my draw for what was in my graveyard leading me to not use it anyhow giving me access simply to 1 colorless mana. I should note also that I never tested more than 2 since Ruins Legendary status can cause problems, too.

I also never really spent a lot of time on testing Intuition/Gifts Ungiven since I believe it requires a significant jump away from the Armageddon Stax builds that I have found most consistent. In the little bit of time that I have spent testing them, I found a couple of things - a) Academy Ruins is again required, it is not 100% necessary, but it makes both Intuition and Gifts stronger, b) Intuition and Gifts are both about a turn slow; I fully understand that changing either to 1U or 2U respectively would probably make them completely broken, but outside of using them early (turn 1 or 2) in Stax, I have never found them to be any better than Enlightened Tutor, and c) The early game (and opening hands) become more inconsistent.

Again, I didn't test anything fully, especially since I believe with Gifts you need to shift to a more 'tool-box' oriented build, but that's what I found.

I appologize for rambling on like I do, I'm just honestly interested in improving the Armageddon Stax shell to be better against the tougher decks, so I don't mind sharing a lot of my tedious data trying to go in that direction.

Fred Bear...

One last thought... Since you've upped your non-permanent count up to 7, have you thought about cutting down on Smokestacks? How well does it interact with Loam?

f|i[p]
01-13-2008, 04:15 AM
@Fred

I also do think that the goblin match is favorable, as you are working on making early game more consistent, I work on making mid-late game more consistent.

Honestly I think its going to be hard to make our early game consistent as it always matters on how lucky we are when we draw our first 7, or maybe adding more lock pieces to make sure that we get 1 early, which in turn might hinder our mid to late game topdecks. Thus I work on our mid-lategame more consistent.

I did not mainly want to improve the decks bad match ups, but actually I wanted the deck to be consistent mid to late game at the least. Maybe its also my topdeck luck that affects me. But most of the time, even if I do get an early lock piece, I cant seem to find anything significant after. getting mostly more trinispheres,chalices, lands, or crucibles when using mono white. Being able to get what I need most at a certain time was one of the reasons for the splash.


I have tried the green splash for library but wasnt much of a factor, as I usually ended up wanting things answered now rather than check out 2 more cards that may not be the cards I really want, thus I tried adding Gifts ungiven to the deck.

Life from the loam with gifts ungiven/or intuition is great, what I like about this is that you can fetch wasteland, the tabernacle at pendrell vale maybe even maze of ith(if you choose to run this),or any land you would need and it would be guaranteed that you would get it. You will most likely already have a crucible in play or at least you will get life from the loam in your hand.

I have decided to cut academy ruins entirely as you are correct, I often found myself feeling a turn delayed as academy ruins is indeed mana hungry and it makes you draw the same thing over and over.It will also push you towards a toolbox oriented build.Although a recurring tormods crypt is devastating against threshold and ichorid, we already have a good match up against them. It doesnt really help you when you need it most,its just too slow.

Gifts ungiven maybe even cut down to 2 copies, needs more testing.

One of the things I find promising about splashing colors, is getting additional sideboard cards, Green offers choke, tsunami which are good against landstill, compost against black, krosan grips which are very good for any deck that packs deed which is one of the most cards feared by any stax player. Blue offers gifts or intuition which is our tutor for which ever card we need most.

As for going for the tool-box oriented build, I dont think its the right way to go. Going for a tool-box oriented build means we would have to rely on our graveyard as well, which with academy ruins is still just too slow.

So I think going straight up stax putting lock pieces on the board early and finishing the game consistently is still my main priority.