[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide [Archive] - Page 2

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 11:09 PM

What would you cut?

The only option seems to be Seal of Primordium.

At that point, I would rather just splash for Vindicate or run Pernicous Deed. Both cards deal with both creatures and artifacts/enchantments, and Vindicate has the added bonus of supplementing Wasteland and Sinkhole to mana screw your opponent.

Has anyone tried Deed?

The problem with it is that it's slower than dry wall (it eats up two turns).

But on the other hand, it's the exact opposite of a win more card.

It takes you from an unwinnable situation and gives you a nice reset switch to try all over again.

Seriously though, if you want more removal spells, I would take a look at the white splash...

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9068&page=3

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4/3 Vindicate
2/3 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

Has anyone here bothered to try that build out?

raharu

04-13-2008, 11:29 PM

Maybehaps. It depends on the Metagame. Sometimes Seal is a important card, pre-emptively stopping threats before they happen, and creating a tempo swing. Vindicate is slower and generally tempo loss.

Happy Gilmore

04-13-2008, 11:32 PM

Snuff out is unbelievably good. The only other removal I would run is Shriekmaw since it also doubles as an evasive threat. Not to mention being really hard to counter with counterbalance.

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 11:35 PM

Sometimes Seal is a important card, pre-emptively stopping threats before they happen, and creating a tempo swing. Vindicate is slower and generally tempo loss.

I don't think you're using the term tempo correctly.

If anything Vindicate is the card that best allows for tempo swings.

It nukes your opponents last remaining land and makes it so that all the cards in their hand are dead. At the very least, it sets them behind by several turns. That the definition of gaining tempo.

Compare that to Seal.

You spend a whole turn to cast Seal out of worry that they will resolve a Counterbalance next turn.

So your opponent, seeing that you have the Seal, opts to use their turn to cast other cards instead.

In many cases, they didn't even have the Counterbalance in the first place.

So it's you who end up wasting a turn only to have no effect on the game or their play, and thus lost tempo.

Vindicate is fairly hard to counter with Counterbalance as well, as the decks that run Counterbalance run three 3cc cards total in the whole deck, if any at all.

Shriekmaw is way too mana intensive for this deck imho.

Happy Gilmore

04-13-2008, 11:46 PM

If it wasn't for Vindicate being bad, and in the wrong colors, I would agree with you.

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 11:52 PM

Yeah, Vindicate is horrible. :laugh:

I have no idea why people keep losing to such a crappy card.

Destroy anything, be it Goyfs, Shackles, Counterbalances, Lands (in a deck with 8 land destruction spells to supplement it), hell even Planeswalkers.

God I wish Wizards would stop printing such crap rares.

lolosoon

04-14-2008, 01:59 AM

You spend a whole turn to cast Seal out of worry that they will resolve a Counterbalance next turn.

So your opponent, seeing that you have the Seal, opts to use their turn to cast other cards instead.
Or they will wait to have UUU open for CounterBalance+Stifle.

But with Eva Green packing LD+Discard, and 4 Choke in SB, it's hard for Thresh//TEC to achieve this.

Vindicate ?! Sure this card rocks, but most CounterTop-based decks are prepared for it with 3+ 3cc MD slots just in case (Predator, Shackles, Threads...).

Truly, Eva Green was the best SuiBuild around. Full sets of Shades'n Goyfs'n Stalkers ?! Woohoo !!

They're not "cool things", just the best mana-efficient threats around there...

...well, before Countryside Crusher and aggroLoam arised.

Nowadays, it's hard to match their average threat density//quality (5/5 Flying for 2-3 mana is great, 7/7 trample Lhurgoyfs or 9/9 pumping Giants are huge troubles -even if I agree Delving all your lands help shrinking Terravore and you still have SB Leylines).

Depending of your Meta, 4 removal spells may be not enought removal imho. Smother is great, but lack the tempo boost of SnuffOut and interfere with your gameplan.

If GoyfSligh and AggroLoam are rampants in your meta, dropping the seals or SB materials to find rooms for smothers is an idea. Swithching Eva Green for another deck could be a better one, though...

Clark Kant

04-14-2008, 02:27 AM

Good points. Fortunately though, aggroloam needs a decent bit of mana to get going.

That's what I love about Vindicate+Sinkhole+Wasteland, the fact that you can mana screw them long enough to win with your large beaters. And should that plan fail, Vindicate can still take out Crusher and save your butt (along with your 2 Swords and 3 Snuff Out). Seal isn't anywhere near as versatile or useful in that matchup.

electrolyze

04-14-2008, 02:49 AM

why do you people has so much trouble with aggro loam?

i tested it now 3 times(6games) and i won all of them.

i tested against r/g, gwb, rgb and didnt found them very hard to beat.

if you have enough disruption and a big stalker stalker wou win easily i think.

if youre cutting the seals i would play jitte instead, it can be removal, give you a faster clock and against burn it can give you lives.

Shtriga

04-14-2008, 07:03 AM

hebrewhammer

04-14-2008, 10:43 AM

ok as weird as it may seem, i was playing the deck at local tournaments, and i was two cards short. i was missing a thoughtsieze, and a bloodstained mire, so the only way i could play my deck was playing with some random smothers i found laying around. it turned out it was actually a good idea to run them, i think i'm gonna keep thoughtsieze out of my deck and probably run the mire and cut a seal and only run 2

Shtriga

04-14-2008, 11:01 AM

keep thoughtseize out of your deck, you mean entirely, as in, running 0 copies? that's a very very bad idea. it's ok if you want to run a few smothers, or like 3 seizes, but thoughtseize is too good not to run

electrolyze

04-14-2008, 11:22 AM

if i'm gonna play smother in the deck is probably play it 2x and cut or a seal and a snuff for it or 2 snuffs.

but i think jitte is better then smother because it has more options then only creature removal and you play enough evasive creatures for jitte to be really insane.

in my meta i think i'm gonna play 3 jitte main instead of seal because there are many aggro decks in the meta and not that many decks with scary arti/enchantments. then im probably gonna run 3 krosan grip side instead of jitte.

i already play explosives in my side too now so enchantemtns/artifacts are not so scary anymore for me then.

hebrewhammer

04-14-2008, 11:35 AM

i ment to say im gonna leave the one thoughtsieze out of my deck. and run only 3.

hebrewhammer

04-14-2008, 11:38 AM

i dont really like jitte main board, i much rather have some kind of disruption than them, there good and fun, just i wouldnt bother running them mainboard.

nitewolf9

04-14-2008, 02:56 PM

@electrolyze:

It seems that you are basing a few conclusions about the sideboard due to some rotten luck and perhaps a lack of experience on how to play the threshold matchup. I know that Anwar tested the 4 color threshold matchup and came out slightly ahead in 20 games, pre-board. As far as running extirpate, yes, against 4c thresh waste+extirpate on trop is pretty ridiculous, but a lot of 3c lists run basic forest. The reason it was decided that choke was a great sideboard card was not only because of it's strength against threshold but also because of it's strength against control decks like landstill. While it may be frustrating to lose to threshold, losing to vedalken shackles is just about as frustrating as it gets. Choke effectively provides a bomb against most all threshold lists while severely punishing decks for using shackles. Explosives is strong against threshold but I'm not sure it is the best call for a big legacy tournament, plus it does nothing against mystic FUCKING enforcer (sorry, I have to say the name like that every time now, I hate that card almost as much as I hate vedalken FUCKING shackles). Extirpate instead of leyline however seems fine, I think they each have their merits.

By the way, if the threshold list utilizes dark confidant, jitte may be a good tool to bring in post board. What was your boarding strategy like against the threshold list? Additionally, do you know if they were running mystic enforcer?

In reference to all this business about running 3 thoughtseizes: please lay off the crack cocaine. This is probably the strongest disruption card in the format right now and to run less than 4 seems dumb, especially since you want to see them early.

electrolyze

04-14-2008, 04:00 PM

the thresh list was runnin from what i saw onlt gooses, goyf and confidants.

i sided against it:

-4sinkhole(even if its 4c, it still getted enough lands how much lands i destroyed so thats why i boarded out, you have waste for the important duals on the moment they need it)
-3seal(i didnt saw a counterbalance in both games so thats why...)

+4choke
+3jitte

and yes the guy had some really great luck with double stifle on confidan while he was on four and too much gooses and stp's around.

i think youre right about the chokes in the board over explosives because there are still lots of muc and variants in my meta and yes, vedalken FUCKING shackles is really the worst card ever. i really lose many games on a sticking chackles on the board. i only never see a mystic enforcer in my meta game, even in thresh i didnt see it because without thresh works really overpowered too and with countertop it already has a good mu against many black decks.

i think my sb will look like this now:

4xchoke
4xextirpate
4xplague(we have really stills lots of goblins here, they tourney i played with eva green was won by a goblin deck. there were a total of 57 players there so i'm happy this deck has a good mu against goblins but plague is still important against it to be sure you win this mu i think)
3xjitte

i'm gonna play this deck again on a upcoming tournament with the little sideboard change and i hope i will do better against thresh after reading your last post i have to agree with the things you said about choke and that my opponent had really broken hands against me:laugh:

the only thing i'm not sure about is if i have to put jitte main because there is really many kind of aggro decks here because i think seal is really good too because you realy dont want to loose to random mu's and idiot cards like shackles.

nitewolf9

04-14-2008, 04:17 PM

This deck should be pretty well equipped against most aggro decks, one main reason being that the creatures are so huge. I also feel that the sideboard has the tools to deal with swarming strategies effectively. You could try jitte main if you think it is a good call for your meta, but I think seal is probably the most underrated card in the deck. It really is a spectacular addition. Let me know how you like extirpate, particularly against dredge; I'm always torn between it and leyline.

Edit: Another potential boarding plan for threshold involves siding out snuff outs. Against that black/white thresh list, since snuff out hits neither mongoose or dark confidant, you could have left in sinkholes to try and cut them off of a color. Jitte also helps you win tarmogoyf fights so the snuffs may not be as necessary post board. Just another idea.

electrolyze

04-14-2008, 04:43 PM

yes youre right about the snuff boarding out against thresh and the other things you said about jitte. i think the thresh mu has to be very much tested too know really how to play good against it for me because there are so much options. just have to get more expirience with the deck i think.

about extirpate over leyline, agaisnt ichorid you have a really hard time even with a leyline becaus ea easy bounce or just a rey or something is fatal.
extirpate can you play on really irritating moments when they need a key card to go insane(caus ichorid goes most of the time really insane). thats why i like extirpate over leyline, you really can slow down the players wih one move while they can bounce leyline afte they just waitet for a god hand or immediately can go of and with extirpat its kinda unexpected.

beside extirpate i jitte, plague, sinkhole and thougthseize can be vetry good too. and probably the creature that can race it and even let you win t without leyline(if you play it) is tombstalker.

when i played against ichorid i getted a tombstalket t2 in game 3 and a plague on ichorid. so i really had a big chanche against it. i kicked him to 3 life but then he killed my leyline and had too broken dredges with narcomobea's to chump my stalker. jitte or another plague topdecked and i won this game.

i'm gonna test more against this deck and let you know my results, against thresh too but you have probably played agaisnt thres 1000 more times then i do with the deck:laugh:

kikkofrio

04-17-2008, 06:58 PM

have u ever thought to add a blu splash for stifle and daze?

- 4 specter
- 4 hymn

+ 4 stifle
+ 4 daze

-1 land
-1 seal
+ 2 sea drake

it's only an idea...can a blu splash for a strong denial work?:confused:

thefreakaccident

04-17-2008, 07:36 PM

I'll nip this right in the but right here, no it cannot work... if you want to play a deck with blue in it, and have tempo oriented cards such as daze and stifle, run threshold, specifically thrash (although any good build should run 4 daze anyways).

AnwarA101

04-17-2008, 10:53 PM

Obfuscate Freely

04-17-2008, 11:42 PM

This brings back bad memories. :frown:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/i-sorry.jpg

Hey, at least it was a better deck than Fish!

Machinus

04-17-2008, 11:48 PM

That's what you get for playing without my signature.

gosumog

04-19-2008, 06:28 AM

i like this deck as control, stalker shade and goyf come down after a deed as huge clocks. ritual and urami gives u 5 easily accessable 5/5's

4 tarmogoyf
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker

3 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy
4 pernicious deed
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out

1 urborg, tomb
1 tomb of urami
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
5 swamp

Mooglar

04-19-2008, 12:40 PM

I like cabal therapies here a lot more than thoughtseize since it seems like therapy targets are always the same >_> fow, goyf, cb

I also run 3xnegator main in my version seeing as how dmg on stack blow up deed is pretty good besides being a 5/5 trample on turn 1. maybe 4x deed 3x seal for control elements, 4x therapy, i'm also trying out isao for fun but hes pretty good regenerates against deed battles mongoose and blocks goyf for a while but being a 2/1 defintly sucks, i run 21 creeps because of 4 therapies but it seems to work out better that way

electrolyze

04-19-2008, 02:54 PM

Mooglar

04-20-2008, 03:31 PM

why are you so fond of therapy in the deck, i know its good but its really less good when youre running less then 4 seize(you should not run less then 4 because you really want it early game, wich only happens good when youre play it 4 times) and there is no creature you want to sac for a therapy.

about deed, i know hes good too but you want tempo in this deck and dont want to blow up youre creatures.

maybe the one off urami may be good but i havent tested it yet so i cant really arguing(or something, im not that good in english) if its really good.

I'd sac any of my creeps for therapy in order to take a fow away to be able to cast down a deed or tombstalker, the thing is is that every creature is a threat and can take the game all by themselves, so gettirng rid of 1 creature is not a big deal, but i guess i do run more guys in my deck, also it helps if i need to sac a negator against SoFi or ugr thresh.

kabal

04-21-2008, 08:46 AM

Thoughts?

Eva Green (and White) by Sylvain Durand (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15337)

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Smother
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Planar Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

kabal

04-21-2008, 08:53 AM

Does Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and/or Volrath's Stronghold seem like a fit for this deck? I single Urborg can turn those unused Wastelands into counters for Shade. With all the creatures in this deck, Stronghold seems pretty strong. Especially if you have to go into the long game.

electrolyze

04-21-2008, 08:58 AM

Hummingbird TG

04-21-2008, 01:38 PM

that's not eva green anymore,

eva green is a tempo based version of suicide, the best suicide version probably.

the list u posted is probably deadguy or deadguy rock and dont belong in this threat.

the list sure looks strong but its not eva green, if i was you i would post it in the deadguy threat.

Yup, I agree, that list is definitely Deadguy alright. Althoguh I question some of the pilot, such as Smothers, the lack of Accel, the lack of Top, and Sinkhole(which seems to be the weakest link in Deadguy from what I've seen)...

hebrewhammer

04-23-2008, 10:46 PM

what do you guys think bout fulminator mage? seems pretty damn good 3 mana for 2/2 and you can sac it like a wasteland

electrolyze

04-24-2008, 01:07 AM

Tacosnape

04-24-2008, 01:24 AM

its a really bad grizzly bear or a bad sinkhole, it dont gives you tempo and more land destruction is not really needed, especialy nonbasic land destruction is not so good because you already have wasteland what would be enough to kill 1/2 lands.

Technically it's both a bad sinkhole and a bad grizzly bear. Not that I'm particularly defending the card as I think it's still crap, but given that it can nail the land at any time at instant speed, even as a combat trick with damage on the stack, makes it somewhat more appealing.

That said, the guy belongs more in Deadguy than in Eva Green, if anywhere.

Shtriga

04-24-2008, 07:10 AM

I think its a bad sinkhole or a bad grizzly bear. it would be IMO better as a CIP effect

gosumog

04-25-2008, 03:30 PM

...

Amaroid

04-25-2008, 03:51 PM

I'd like some advice on how to sideboard against CounterSlivers. In my first tournament with Eva Green, I played against Slivers twice (unusual, for sure, but I lost both times), and now I'm expecting at least one Sliver build in a small local tournament this weekend.

My decklist is the same as on the first page except for Extirpate over Leylines in the board.

This is what I've been thinking so far:
- Engineered Plague: Slivers aren't really too impressed with a single Plague on the board with all of their pump effects. I dropped it once or twice against them and it hardly made a difference.
- Choke: Usually affects all of their lands, but if they get an early Aether Vial, again it doesn't slow them down all that much.
- Umezawa's Jitte: I think you probably want those. Jitte is still useful when Snuff Out would have become dead because of a Crystalline Sliver.

Also, what to board out?
- Snuff Out: Is useless if they get a Crystalline. But Plague isn't really strictly better here (though maybe Jitte is).
- Seal of Primordium: Seems like an obvious choice because it only hits Aether Vial, but then again, if I decide to bring in Choke, this might be good enough to keep them in.

Thoughts?

nitewolf9

04-25-2008, 05:02 PM

kikkofrio

04-27-2008, 04:19 PM

only one idea:

- 1 polluted delta

+ 1 shriekmaw

can bè suitable?

nitewolf9

04-27-2008, 11:29 PM

only one idea:

- 1 polluted delta

+ 1 shriekmaw

can bè suitable?

I would strongly advise against going below 17 permanent black sources in the deck. Additionally if you wanted to run shriekmaw in a certain metagame, you would probably want to run more than just 1. I really don't see the point of singletons in this deck.

kikkofrio

04-28-2008, 05:46 AM

I would strongly advise against going below 17 permanent black sources in the deck. Additionally if you wanted to run shriekmaw in a certain metagame, you would probably want to run more than just 1. I really don't see the point of singletons in this deck.

I already made - 1 swamp +1 bayou. Is it wrong?

I don't see shriekmaw as a single card, but the fifth removal and the 17th creature.

Is there something of good from shadowmoore?

Henrik

04-28-2008, 08:27 AM

I've been playtesting this deck (more or less the original build in the first post) with great succes. In real life, however, I do not have acces to goyfs and I'm therefore running a budget version with Quirion dryads. It turns out, it is not awful. it could easily attack as a 4/4 turn 3, after a ritual and two BB spells, and as a 5/5 or 6/6 turn 4. Also, the possible antisynergy with goyf/stalker is not a problem. The obvious drawbacks are that a small dryad is very easy to get rid of, and the fact that only the first played dryad will have any probability to grow.

Of course, this is a budget alternative to goyf, and I don't really suggest that it should be played in an opted version of the deck. Either way, does anyone have any inputs in the subject? Experience with trying and furter tips? What else could be played instead of goyfs in a budget version? Or is it just so, that goyf is the reason for Eva Green's existence, and if you don't have them you should just run monoblack sui in the first place?

A lot of quiestions...

LGD

04-28-2008, 09:51 AM

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 10:28 AM

Of course, this is a budget alternative to goyf, and I don't really suggest that it should be played in an opted version of the deck. Either way, does anyone have any inputs in the subject? Experience with trying and furter tips? What else could be played instead of goyfs in a budget version? Or is it just so, that goyf is the reason for Eva Green's existence, and if you don't have them you should just run monoblack sui in the first place?

Tarmogoyf was the reason this deck came into being. If you do not have access to goyfs I do not feel that the green splash is worth it at all. While I would suggest trying to acquire a set as soon as you can if you plan on continuing to play magic I do understand that 200 bucks for a set is more than a little steep. If suicide black really is your cup of tea, mono black is probably the way to go. The only issue there though is that without enough fetchlands tombstalker is weakened. And if you run fetch lands...why not splash? One option is to try the red splash again as moon effects are still pretty strong:

4 tombstalker
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 magus of the moon

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 price of progress / terminate / whatever

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 badlands
6 swamp

board:
4 plague
4 blood moon
4 leyline of the void
3 jitte

It's a thought and might be a good alternative if you are goyfless. Like I said though, you should probably try to pick up a set over time, it is a good investment.

Henrik

04-28-2008, 10:50 AM

Well, that was the expected answer, and I suppose I agree with you. For now, I will be playing monoblack sui or deadguy versions that include stalker/top. Almost as much fun.

And yes, I intend to get hold of a playset goyfs in time, just not right now.

Thanks for the responses.

kabal

04-28-2008, 10:54 AM

@nitewolf9

Have you played Eva Green at any tournaments within the last month? If so, what were the results?

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 11:41 AM

@nitewolf9

Have you played Eva Green at any tournaments within the last month? If so, what were the results?

I have played it twice in the last month and a half in the local tournament here in NoVA and I top 4'd each time (we split). It was the original list on the first post of this thread, same sideboard.

kabal

04-28-2008, 02:08 PM

I have played it twice in the last month and a half in the local tournament here in NoVA and I top 4'd each time (we split). It was the original list on the first post of this thread, same sideboard.

What does your Meta look like? Do you mind giving a quick overview of your matches during those 2 events?

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 02:40 PM

What does your Meta look like? Do you mind giving a quick overview of your matches during those 2 events?

We usually have one or two threshold decks (seems to be a 5c build piloted by one of the Hatfields or Ugw as of late), some ichorid, occasionally a cephalid breakfast deck with counterbalance, a landstill player (URABAHN), a couple of goblins players (Rgb with weirding), a couple of random decks, dragon stompy usually makes a showing, and usually at least one storm combo player (seems to be fetchland tendrills now). Week to week all sorts of stuff shows up.

The last tournament I can remember I lost 1 game total out of 4 matches, going 4-0. I played against 2 goblins decks (I think I have still only lost to goblins once with this deck...it trounces goblins), wayfarer white weenie with a green splash for tarmogoyf with man lands and jitte and what not (Alix Hatfield's creation), and fetchland tendrills (Krieger). Against fetchland tendrils in the top 8 I race him with disruption game 1 and a nantuko shade, ritual on shade sealing the deal on turn 4 I think (he was taking damage from himself and infernal contract). Game 2 was a rout because of turn 0 leyline and a bunch of discard/huge beats.

That's what I can remember.

Edit: The other event I believe I played against goblins, Ugw threshold, cephalid breakfast and dragon stompy. Don't really remember how the games went though.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 04:11 PM

Has anyone here tested any of the following cards in Seal of Primordium's slot....

Rancor, Giant Growth, Might of Old Krosa, Jitte, Duress, Reanimate, Krosan Grip or Berserk?

I can't imagine that Seal is absolutley 100% needed maindeck since you run so much discard anyways.

Trample on the other hand is game winning on Goyf and Shade.

Goyf+Rancor also lets your Goyf completely outclass opposing Goyfs.

Giant Growth can save your creatures from some removal, and also will win you ground wars a lot of times (taking out their blocking Goyf etc).

Then, there is Jitte, which is insane in just about any deck with creatures.

And lastly, you could play Duress with your other discard so you can deal with the same stuff that Seal does and so much more. It gets rid of removal that would hit your creatures etc.

I could also see Reanimate working very well here with all the discard and creature kill you run.

Krosan Grip is imo vastly superior to Seal, but the 1cc extra does suck a lot so Seal maybe the better choice. Never the less, instant speed, uncounterability, dodging and removing Chalice at 2 (which otherwise shuts this deck down completely), dodging and removing Counterbalance, and not being able to be played around all seem like they make this card superior to Seal. The one and only situation where Seal is better imo is against Standstill. But that card comes up a lot less often than Chalice and Counterbalance imo.

Berserk is another option, though probably the worst one mentioned here as it's use seems a lot more narrow.

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 04:56 PM

Has anyone here tested any of the following cards in Seal of Primordium's slot....

Rancor, Giant Growth, Might of Old Krosa, Jitte, Duress, Reanimate, Krosan Grip or Berserk?

Outclassing other tarmogoyfs is not really an issue in this deck when you have nantuko shade and tombstalker, as well as snuff out. Most of those options open you up more to removal and don't really help you very much. Duress does nothing to things that actually resolve, even though there is the illusion that it will stop those things from coming down in the first place. You need to devote some spots in the deck to removal. Krosan grip is once again reactive and is not fire and forget like seal is. It also costs one more, which is a big deal, and does nothing to fuel tarmogoyf or stalker when it is dead. Reanimate is kinda cool but doesn't really help you out of a bind like seal can.

Seal is way better than people are giving it credit for. I don't think I would remove it unless I was expecting some really wacky meta. Are you speaking from personal experience where seal was bad? How has it been for you?

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 05:05 PM

I'm not saying Seal is bad, but it can infact be a dead card maindeck. And it doesn't seem absolutely essential with Thoughtseizes and the option to run Duress which is less mana intensive and a lot more flexible.

But then again, I haven't tried this deck out in a while. I had a lot more experience with Green Death, a similar Goyf based Sui Black deck that predates this one.

All of the cards I mentioned I think could be very strong in the deck though imo.

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 05:12 PM

I'm not saying Seal is bad, but it can infact be a dead card maindeck.

Here is another question: In what matchups is seal actually dead? I can only think of a couple, namely Ugr Thrash and something like Goyf sligh. The vast majority of legacy decks run artifacts and/or enchantments.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 05:14 PM

Just quickly off the top of my head,

the mirror match
any black based aggro deck
goyf sligh
burn
Ugr thrash
Ichorid
Iggypop
Most combo decks

All are popular well developed decks that see a lot of play.

All are decks that Duress would be great against, where as Seal does nothing.

And I'm sure I could list a half dozen more if I actually thought about it.

And that's not including all the randomness that you are likely to see at any tournament.

Not to mention the decks that play maybe 4 cards that Seal is good against, but there is no guarentee that they will draw one of those four copies in any particular game (vial in goblins), where as you are stuck with the seals in your hand taking up space.

nitewolf9

04-28-2008, 05:21 PM

Just quickly off the top of my head,

the mirror match
any black based aggro deck
goyf sligh
burn
Ugr thrash
Ichorid
Iggypop
Most combo decks

all are decks that see a lot of play.

All are decks that Duress would be great against, where as Seal does nothing.

And I'm sure I could list a half dozen more if I actually thought about it.

Seal is actually good against iggy pop (after you hit them with discard they tend to top deck artifact mana and play it immediately as to win off the top with infernal tutor or igg) and other combo decks (hitting vial game one against breakfast can be huge for instance). Duress does not help you against ichorid. You are not winning game one without some serious luck.
Alot of black based aggro decks also run jitte. And I doubt the mirror match is relevant here.

This still does not seem like a compelling argument against seal. However, if you think duress is the better choice, try it out and let us know what you think. I'm not saying it's the end all be all choice for that slot but it's been amazing for me, and Anwar as well for that matter.

Slayer001

04-29-2008, 11:56 AM

I play krosan grip, because it has split second and it helps me out against alot of annoying things, but seal is also good, only it doesn't have split second and therefore costs one less

Media314r8

04-29-2008, 01:13 PM

I play krosan grip, because it has split second and it helps me out against alot of annoying things, but seal is also good, only it doesn't have split second and therefore costs one less

I play Oxidize, because it destroys a target artifact and it helps me out against alot of annoying things, but seal is also quite good, only it can destroy a target enchantment and therefore costs one more.

ITT: obvious statements, people don't grasp that seal dodges discard and be played pro-activly to skirt around CB, deed, (without 5 mana availible) ect.

Happy Gilmore

04-29-2008, 03:28 PM

Seal is actually good against iggy pop (after you hit them with discard they tend to top deck artifact mana and play it immediately as to win off the top with infernal tutor or igg) and other combo decks (hitting vial game one against breakfast can be huge for instance). Duress does not help you against ichorid. You are not winning game one without some serious luck.
Alot of black based aggro decks also run jitte. And I doubt the mirror match is relevant here.

This still does not seem like a compelling argument against seal. However, if you think duress is the better choice, try it out and let us know what you think. I'm not saying it's the end all be all choice for that slot but it's been amazing for me, and Anwar as well for that matter.

Surprisingly a disruption spell first turn can give you a chance of winning against ichorid. Duress can slow them down a bunch. Enough to get a Tarmogoyf down to kill with Snuff Out. I watched it done with UGB and 5c thresh. taking the breakthrough, discard outlet, or LED is very good.

nitewolf9

04-29-2008, 04:20 PM

Surprisingly a disruption spell first turn can give you a chance of winning against ichorid. Duress can slow them down a bunch. Enough to get a Tarmogoyf down to kill with Snuff Out. I watched it done with UGB and 5c thresh. taking the breakthrough, discard outlet, or LED is very good.

Perhaps, but does it warrant it's inclusion over seal as a "removal" spell? I still think seal is a stronger card for the slot but I can see the justification for an additional 1 cc disruption spell in such an aggressive deck. If you do decide to play duress main I think you would need to run seal or grip in the board, possibly over choke. I am still skeptical but by all means try it out.

AnwarA101

05-02-2008, 12:17 PM

Seal is actually good against iggy pop (after you hit them with discard they tend to top deck artifact mana and play it immediately as to win off the top with infernal tutor or igg) and other combo decks (hitting vial game one against breakfast can be huge for instance). Duress does not help you against ichorid. You are not winning game one without some serious luck.
Alot of black based aggro decks also run jitte. And I doubt the mirror match is relevant here.

This still does not seem like a compelling argument against seal. However, if you think duress is the better choice, try it out and let us know what you think. I'm not saying it's the end all be all choice for that slot but it's been amazing for me, and Anwar as well for that matter.

Anyone who doesn't like Seal, don't blame nitewolf9. I sent him an early list with it and I thought at first he would just laugh in my face, but the more we thought about it there were plenty of artifacts and enchantments that we didn't want to lose to. As we continued to test it, we found it invaluable. I can't tell you how many times I've told nitewolf9 that I just love Seal and how many times its saved me. Its ability to be played pro actively can't be underrated as it can prevent your opponent from playing the Standstill that you will later hit with Hymn. Its ability to pump Tarmogoyf and fuel Tombstalker is just icing on the cake.

Slayer001

05-03-2008, 06:30 PM

Played some matches against faerie stompy, 3 to beexact. Won them all, I thought faerie stompy was a more annoying matchup. but tarmogoyf, tombstalker and snuffout overclass them so hard :smile:

Nihil Credo

05-04-2008, 07:20 AM

Kikkofrio has been testing a blue splash for Daze we've brainstormed about - from what he told me, you can do some pretty sick disruption with that thrown in (he mentioned Dazing a Brainstorm cast in response to a discard spell). The main drawback is that the SB becomes more difficult to build, since you probably want some Disenchant effects for Humility and the like.

The list is:

/ Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [REW] Wasteland
3 [ST] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [U] Hypnotic Specter
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [MM] Snuff Out

Clark Kant

05-04-2008, 09:49 AM

Cool build. 20 lands seem too low though.

I would drop either a Daze or a Nantuko Shade for the last land.

IMO, you are better off not splashing and just playing Duress instead of Daze.

Even if they Brainstorm in response to your first discard spell. Instead of Dazing it, you can just Duress them the next turn.

Splashing another color for Daze isn't worth the vulnerability to Blood Moon and Magus and B2B imo.

AnwarA101

05-07-2008, 12:10 AM

nitewolf9

05-07-2008, 10:29 AM

Did anyone post these results?

Drachental Düsseldorf Legacy April (http://www.deckcheck.net//event.php?event=Drachental+D%FCsseldorf+Legacy+April)

It looks like a pretty standard list. Not really a big tournament, but nice to see that other people are playing it. I've tried Deed in the board and it just seems so slow for this deck.

That's pretty awesome. But yeah...pernicious deed over plague? Seems questionable, but I guess the metagame over there is kinda different so it could have been a good choice.

Joon

05-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Deed tends to rape Tokens of all power and strengths und isn't bad in the VG Matchup either. Breakfast isn't played in Germany except very few exceptions and in addition to that Leyline should do the job, too.
Deed is also great in raping Tokens of all kinds of races (especially with Ritual), as it does not make Ichorids Token weaker but pretty dead.

Lance

05-07-2008, 10:25 PM

I also made that sideboard change when I won my last legacy tournement. In my meta, we see no Goblin deck, so Deed looked better for me. I will probably run Eva Green again in my next legacy tournament in 2 weeks or so, ill let you know guys how it went!

Gobo17

05-08-2008, 07:34 AM

I played at the mentioned tournament too and became 2end with Nqgr. The Eva Green player was my friend and we decided to play deed over plague because in our meta are nearly no goblins (last week i played against goblins after about 7 month) but many Dragon Stompy decks. Against this deck deed is such an epic tool of destruction. And against dredge as mentioned deed is much better as plague because it kills there token. And against NQG the deed is good too, it destroys all of their important things like balance or goose which can't be killed by snuff out

kikkofrio

05-09-2008, 07:03 AM

Has anyone tested eva green VS:

- angel stax?
- aggro loam?
- dragon stompy?
- dreadstill?

electrolyze

05-12-2008, 12:57 PM

today, i played a tourney(the dutch master qualifier, thats a big event here, were you get many cash:laugh: )

here's a small tourney report:

1:

ivo koolhaas - dragon stompy

game 1, i keep a reasonable hand but he managed to get enough beatz under all my threats to kill me fast enough.

game 2, i had a good hand but not many threats so he beated me very fast below zero.

2 - fahad saleh - muc

game 1, he gets a game loss because he didnt wrote his whole sideboard.

game 2, i had to mulligan to 5 and he had too many counters and won the game.

game 3, i had enough threats to lay down my choke safely, and beated him down with a stalker.

3 - veerle - burn

i didnt expect i would win the tourney when i saw this match, becuase i have never won before against burn.

game 1, i had enough discard and a early stalker to beat her before she burned me out.

game 2, she had to mull to 5 and i beated her very quick again.

i was very happy with this, because burn i one of the baddest mu's of the deck.

4 - maarten euser - ugr tempo thresh

game 1, this was a very thight game but i managed to destroy enough lands and beated the crap out of him with a goyf and a shade.

game 2, this was also a very exciting game but i maded a mistake with pumping nantuko shade and the stack, so he could kill the shade with a fire/ ice. and he beated me down with gooses and goyfs.

game 3, this was the best game i had on the tourney, i had very early a wasteland on tropical island and extirpated the tropical island. he had already a goyf on the table but i had snuff out.

5 - kasper euser(his bigger brother) - uwb landstill

game 1, i had enough threats and a nantuko shade fix the job.

game2, this game is almost the same as game one but this time with a tombstalker:laugh:

now, i was 4-1 and definitely in the top 4(for some reason we didnt played a top 8)

the top 4 consited out of,

1 rg(b) aggro loam
1 spanish inquisition
1 dragon stompy
1 me, with eva green

top 4 1st round:

again, against ivo koolhaas with dragon stompy

game 1, i was very good with all my threats and tombstalkers etc. he manged somehow to get a dragon and enough many for the insane hellbent shit.

game 2, he had to mull to 5 and i disrupted him so hard he couldnt win.

game 3, i got broken with a 6/7 goyf and a seal of primordium on jitte:laugh:

finals against roel jans with aggro loam:

game 1, i was mana screwd for a few turns but tombstalker all the way:p lol, and snuff out 2x afcourse.

game 2, this was very exciting, but he had very nuts upkeeps with his crusher so he beated me to the death. if i had topdecked one single chump blocked i would win this game with my stalker.

game 3, i got a first turn hymn and hippie and i getted a second hippie and a shade to beat him to the death.

now im very happy, because this is the first tourney i win and its a very big price i think(50 euro for every match i win and a 1st price is 500 bucks. for the dutch masters)

the decklist i used was the regular list with only extirpate instead of leyline, seriously, this card is so much better then leyline. you people must really try this on a tourney. it gives you so much more options then leyline, and the mu's leyline is good, extirpate is good too.

greetz, bas

nitewolf9

05-12-2008, 02:13 PM

Nice work, dude! How many people were at this tournament out of curiosity?

I have been on the fence about leyline vs. extirpate. I'm not sold about extirpate being better but it is really funny to extirpate a trop when it's your opponent's only green source *fog horn*.

Anyway, congratulations on the finish, I'm glad you picked up the deck.

electrolyze

05-12-2008, 03:00 PM

there were not that many people on the tourney, between the 20 and 30 people, but the meta was really competative and there was very much blue based control/ aggro control. but we kicked them all out of the top4/8(there wasnt even one in the t8 i thought).

about extirpate, its just my favoritest sideboard card atm, because it helped me so f*cking many games its not even funny anymore. i think leyline is just too random and if not in your opening hand its really a worse topdeck. you probably tested extirpate too but if you havent done this already, just try it out on a tourney with a lot of loam and blue based aggro control. it really is insane against it.

AnwarA101

05-12-2008, 04:06 PM

game 3, i got broken with a 6/7 goyf and a seal of primordium on jitte:laugh:

So how did you find Seal? I bet it was gold in this game! Glad to see the deck is still as hot as ever!

electrolyze

05-12-2008, 04:17 PM

i think seal is really too good not to play in this deck. he solves just so insane many problems and in the minimalest(or something) case, he pumps your goyfs, wich is really good too.

and yes, in the dragonstompy mu, goyf and seal shine as hell. goyf becomes so quick insanely big in her and seal only speed this up for you+the importantest, it kills jitte, chalice, trinisphere(if stilll played, the guy i was playing wasnt playing it but that doesnt matter right now), mox(great when you go on the land destruction tour, powder keg, sword of fire and ice, blood moon, i think this was it:laugh:

it helped me against landstill, counterbalance thresh, enchantress, loam, dragonstompy and infinite other decks.

GiantGrowth

05-14-2008, 12:14 AM

just started looking into this deck, I was a huge lover of red death and mono black sui.

Has the decklist really not changed since the first post 4 months ago?

nitewolf9

05-14-2008, 12:18 AM

I suppose it hasn't. I believe the maindeck is pretty much optimized. I feel that the board is the biggest variable, although I think that the sideboard on the first page covers most of your bases.

Illissius

05-14-2008, 02:54 AM

Kikkofrio has been testing a blue splash for Daze we've brainstormed about

How's this been working out? Seems like a pretty cool out-of-the-box idea.

revenge_inc

05-14-2008, 02:58 PM

It seems there has been little debate between Vendetta and Snuff Out. Has anybody tried them both and can tell me their impressions?

electrolyze

05-14-2008, 03:11 PM

I would really choose snuff over vendetta, first of all, its still a nonblack creature. Second, your main killable(not right english right?) is goyf, wich is probably 4/5. 3th, I have been in tons of situations the free cost for snuff was way better. In the final of the tournament i won it even was a win/lose situation. I had a shade and 2 hippies and he a tapped and untapped goyf. I had 2 mana open and he was on 8. i really needed the removal to be free.

Its uncounterable by counterbalance most of the time too and i think you will lose more life from vendetta than from snuff because you kill things like, goyf, angel, gathan raiders, slogger, terravore, crusher, etc.

revenge_inc

05-14-2008, 03:19 PM

I would really choose snuff over vendetta
You made a strong case. How often do you hardcast Snuff Out(pay the 4 mana)?

lolosoon

05-14-2008, 03:20 PM

It seems there has been little debate between Vendetta and Snuff Out. Has anybody tried them both and can tell me their impressions?
There sure has been li'l debate about thos 2 cards : Snuff Out is clearly superior to Vendetta.

No kidding. How could a 0cc, "Un-Counterbalance-able" removal for opponent's Goyfs be inferior to a 1cc "Counterbalance-able" in a deck who don't run Confidants in a Metagame where Thresh could be waiting for you around the corner ?!

And the same could be said with Chalice of the Void and decks like DragonStompy (And where a "turn0" Magus with a Bayou+Fetch hand from Eva Green could be problematic...)...

electrolyze

05-14-2008, 03:24 PM

About hardcasting it, i only hardcast it if i can and there are no negative results for me and my creatures(like when you have no many anymore for shade or something and he has burn i wouldnt do it) when i hardcasted it.

Or when i am at a low life total, its just a quest of practicing with it against many decks and you will see when you have to do it and when not.

AnwarA101

05-14-2008, 03:44 PM

During the design phase of this deck, nitewolf9 and I talked about Vendetta and Snuff Out. I thought Vendetta might be better, but with the same arguments that have been made here nitewolf9 convinced me that Snuff Out was better. I can't be happier with Snuff Out. It costs 0 mana and that's the best reason to run it, but getting around Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, and losing less life than Vendetta are all good reasons as well.

chokin

05-14-2008, 04:26 PM

If I were to build the deck without Nantuko Shades, what would some replacements be? I'm a bit low on cash this month.

Anyways, this deck looks a lot like Sui Black with green for hot stuff like Goyf and Seal.

How is the Thresh (UGr, UGw, UGb) match? Stalker beats out CB+Top, but I just want to know how you guys do at beating that and if there are any tips.

Henrik

05-15-2008, 09:20 AM

I will soon try this deck out in a tournament as well (finally got hold of all the missing cards, such as goyf and fetches). I will play the list on the first post.

I would like to hear some expert advice on how to use the sideboard. More precisely, please answer these two quiestions?:

- In what Matchups do you board in Jitte, and what goes out?

- How du you board against *****? Do you board in leylines, or are you satisfied with only boarding choke? Or is it vice versa? What goes out?

Other sideboarding advices in commonly seen, competative matchups are welcome.

nitewolf9

05-15-2008, 11:05 AM

If I were to build the deck without Nantuko Shades, what would some replacements be? I'm a bit low on cash this month.

I'm not really sure if there is any suitable replacement for nantuko shade, but you could try something like shriekmaw.

- In what Matchups do you board in Jitte, and what goes out?

Jitte is for pretty much anything with lots of burn (sligh/burn), goblins, survival, black-based aggro control (e.g. other sui decks), and generally as placeholders anywhere you would have dead/subpar cards.

Against goblins you take out 4 sinkhole and 3 seal for 3 jitte and 4 plague.
Against survival I think you cut disruption (sinkholes) for jittes and more disruption (sinkhole/3 hymns) for yard hate, at least that's an idea to try. You could also stick with just cutting seals for jittes.
Against the other decks I think you just need to figure out what the weakest links are and replace them.

- How du you board against *****? Do you board in leylines, or are you satisfied with only boarding choke? Or is it vice versa? What goes out?

Other sideboarding advices in commonly seen, competative matchups are welcome.

Against threshold it really depends on the build they have. If it's 4 or 5 color you probably want to keep in LD and cut seal and a single snuff out for 4 choke. Against the 3 color builds, you probably cut sinkholes for chokes, and you could also bring in jitte if you're feeling saucy. I wouldn't bring in leylines because they are too conditional. Granted, you get one in your opening 7 and it's very strong. Otherwise it's a dead topdeck, and you really can't afford to mulligan for one in this matchup.

I believe there is other sideboarding advice in this thread so I would suggest reading through it to get a feel for things. The opening post also has alot of information and you should also read the tournament report.

MTL10

05-15-2008, 02:07 PM

[QUOTE=chokin;233709]If I were to build the deck without Nantuko Shades, what would some replacements be? I'm a bit low on cash this month.

Anyways, this deck looks a lot like Sui Black with green for hot stuff like Goyf and Seal.QUOTE]

The deck IS sui black with green for goyf lol...

If you needed to run a budget critter rather than shade, you could run either Stromgald Crusaders from Coldsnap or Order of the Ebon Hand from Fallen Empires. Both are really good on their own (i maindeck Order in my version of the deck) and have protection from swords to plowshares which is HUGE in this format; Neither will run you over $2 a piece, which is always a plus.

MTL10

05-15-2008, 02:08 PM

If I were to build the deck without Nantuko Shades, what would some replacements be? I'm a bit low on cash this month.

Anyways, this deck looks a lot like Sui Black with green for hot stuff like Goyf and Seal.

The deck IS sui black with green for goyf lol...

If you needed to run a budget critter rather than shade, you could run either Stromgald Crusaders from Coldsnap or Order of the Ebon Hand from Fallen Empires. Both are really good on their own (i maindeck Order in my version of the deck) and have protection from swords to plowshares which is HUGE in this format; Neither will run you over $2 a piece, which is always a plus.

Henrik

05-16-2008, 05:57 AM

@ nitewolf9:

Thanks for the sideboard advices, I will read more thouroghly about boarding in different matchups in the thread.

A thought though; Sinkhole seems to be the card that most often is boarded out. Is it optimal to run it? I know there is a discussion in a lot of suicide decks to move the focus from LD towards even more discard and/or creature removal. Can I have your opinion on this?

nitewolf9

05-16-2008, 10:29 AM

I don't think I would cut sinkhole from this deck. When you board it out it is usually because you have a better strategy than LD from the board (e. plague and jitte against goblins for instance) or have something that is simply more effective in the matchup for the role sinkhole plays (ie choke vs threshold).

It helps you immensely against board control decks and let's you win games against survival. It also allows stupidly powerful plays with snuff out to set you opponent way back in the early game. Just because there is something better post board against a lot of decks by no means makes sinkhole a poor choice. Am I wording this well? Essentially you can't main deck choke or engineered plague because they are narrow; sinkhole helps your overall strategy as opposed to being solely focused on hosing other strategies.

It also greatly augments the strength of wasteland and hymn as a resource denial package. Most of the time your opponent can recover from a single wasteland fairly quickly. But 2 or 3 LD effects early on can be devastating.

AnwarA101

05-16-2008, 10:46 AM

nitewolf9

05-16-2008, 10:47 AM

Yes you are wording it just fine. I agree completely. Also is there any 2 mana disruption spell that people think is better than Sinkhole in the maindeck? I'm curious to hear some ideas.

If this is a loaded question, dunerider outlaw is not a disruption spell, Anwar. :smile:

AnwarA101

05-16-2008, 11:01 AM

If this is a loaded question, dunerider outlaw is not a disruption spell, Anwar. :smile:

Depends on the deck you are playing against!!! Turn 2 Tarmogoyf answered by Dunerider Outlaw!!! What an amazing play. :wink:

MTL10

05-16-2008, 11:07 AM

After playing with the deck myself and my brother piloting a very similar deck at a Grand Prix, we both had our own disputes over Sinkhole. We basically decided that Sinkhole is really good if you're on the play, because essentially, if you sinkhole turn 2 your opponents only land, you're on turn 3 while they're still on turn 1, when it comes to land drops and tempo pressure. If you're on the draw, Sinkhole is almost just "fair". It basically just takes the "on the play" tempo from your opponent and gives it to you. If you ask me, that doesnt do enough for me.
Sinkhole gets boarded out a lot when you're on the draw, and i would often board in things that's do share the same purpose as sinkhole (usually jittes), just because Jittes are always good, and Sinkholes are sometimes good.

A problem with Sinkhole is that it's also a horrible topdeck if the game has to come down to it in the late game. Sometimes it just seems like a wasted turn to use a sinkhole when you're opponent has 4 or 5 lands, but nobody can argue how good it is on turn 1 or 2, especially when it's first turn dark rit>Sinkhole>extirpate your duals... hehe, so much fun.

In my opinion, Sinkhole is optional, and based on a metagame decision. I've cut it in my build, and replaced it with Dark confidants, then cut 1 tombstalker so there's less of a chance of getting kicked in the nuts by your own Bob. Nobody can argue with me how amazing dark confidant is by himself... nobody... I honestly have a hard time beliveing why anyone would NOT include him in this deck and other decks similar.

MTL10

05-16-2008, 11:11 AM

Also is there any 2 mana disruption spell that people think is better than Sinkhole in the maindeck? I'm curious to hear some ideas.
Are you really asking this question? There IS a reason Sinkhole was not reprinted in 3rd edition. There IS a reason Sinkhole is worth $25 as a common... A COMMON lol. My answer to your question is no. I don't think there's any better mana disruption/advantage/"tempo stealer" spell for 2 mana other than Sinkhole... Except maybe Mana Drain, but we all know how legal that card is in this format :P

AnwarA101

05-16-2008, 11:17 AM

Are you really asking this question? There IS a reason Sinkhole was not reprinted in 3rd edition. There IS a reason Sinkhole is worth $25 as a common... A COMMON lol. My answer to your question is no. I don't think there's any better mana disruption/advantage/"tempo stealer" spell for 2 mana other than Sinkhole... Except maybe Mana Drain, but we all know how legal that card is in this format :P

I'm asking in the sense that people always complain about Sinkhole, but rarely if ever provide a reasonable replacement for it in the deck. If there were other options I would be open to exploring them, but I don't really see any. It can't hurt to ask those who really don't like Sinkhole for some suggestions.

revenge_inc

05-16-2008, 11:18 AM

Sinkhole is really good if you're on the play...A problem with Sinkhole is that it's also a horrible topdeck...in my opinion, Sinkhole is optional
Agreed. If not maindecked, it is a must in the sideboard.

Sinkhole is worth $25 as a common
You are paying too much. I bought mine a few months ago at $75 US a playset.

MTL10

05-16-2008, 11:38 AM

I'm asking in the sense that people always complain about Sinkhole, but rarely if ever provide a reasonable replacement for it in the deck. If there were other options I would be open to exploring them, but I don't really see any. It can't hurt to ask those who really don't like Sinkhole for some suggestions.

Like i said, I replaced Sinkhole with Dark Confidants in my deck. The card advantage is AMAZING, and Confidant will be the first creature for your opponent to kill, letting your Nantuko Shades or Tarmogoyfs to get in there.

nitewolf9

05-16-2008, 11:40 AM

Like i said, I replaced Sinkhole with Dark Confidants in my deck. The card advantage is AMAZING, and Confidant will be the first creature for your opponent to kill, letting your Nantuko Shades or Tarmogoyfs to get in there.

This reminds me of the "original" incarnation of this deck, that ran dark confidant and a lower number of tombstalkers, without the LD. Let me tell you first hand that it was nowhere near as good.

Lilitu

05-17-2008, 04:52 PM

Hi,

For my first message in mtg the source, i will present my eva green built for a coming soon local tournament in France.

To begin, here is the pile :

Basics :
4 tarmogoyf
4 nantuko shade
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out

Metagame gamble :
3 faerie macabre
3 dusk urchin
1 life from the loam

4 wasteland
2 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
3 bayou
5 swamp
1 forest

board:
1 faerie macabre
3 perish
4 extirpate
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte

I've choosen an anti-grave strategy. I expect to fight against loam deck, threshold and ichorid. Also, i'm trying to inject a pseudo draw engine with the urchins.

The faeries are considered as "anti-graveyard snuff out" : spending no mana for fighting against graveyard based deck seems good. It often surprise the opponent to see mongoose and werebear meltdown in instant, or destroying the dredge engine and remove from the game all the bridges.

The wild card is of course life from the loam. I use it just to continue the land destruction mission and the dredge help for delving. It is randomish, yes, but add some spices in a "4x build".

I might regret the hyppies and the seals, but it is a test-pile.
After some rounds of test, i am really confused with the urchins. It is really often helpfull to get back some tempo as well in early game than in middle. It also helps to gain tempo in blocking a creature and winning a turn for swing with a tombstalker twice with some backup. But... it is random because it is not so big (it can kill a mongoose only when it has just been summoned), it is not enought aggressive (it can just swing for 5 damages) and it dies to much often with a sword to plowshare... if i run pernicious deed why not, but i don't because it is not in the tempo plan. So, maybe the hyppies will be back even i am not fan of them.

Here is my contribution, i hope that it will give you some ideas and food for your spirits.

Lilitu

Lance

05-17-2008, 07:19 PM

So like I said in my last post, I decided to run Eva Green again today in a legacy tournament here in Québec.

The maindeck was the same: Jitte over Seal Maindeck, but I decided to try Plague instead of Deed sideboard like Anwar proposed.

Around 20 players, 5 rounds of swiss and a top4.

The metagame was quite different this time and only 2-3 scrubs around.

First game against Burn, the pilot has a lot of success here, with many top8 in both legacy and extended formats. I won 2-1, Tombstalker -- jitte FTW! That was a very tight matchup, snuff out, wasteland, hypno and Thoughtseize are horrible cards in this matchup. Maindeck Jittes were a good idea here;)

Second matchup agaisnt 43 lands. Never played against this here, I feel like I could have one this, but I was unluck in my draws; I mulliganed and did not run in my leylines... Still, after like 8 turns with no land drop because of a reccuring ghost quarter, I lost because I could not save both my goyf and my Tombstalker from tabarnacle... So 1-2, 1-1.

Third round against Goblins. I got stomped game I, then I stomped him game II and III. 2-1, 2-1.

Fourth round against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. That guy won the last extended and gave me a hard time. I managed to win game III after a controvery in game II about the HP's. He's a really fair guy thought and made no harsh comments about that. 2-1, 3-1.

Fifth round against Burn. I absolutly wrecked him with a Jitte in my starting seven each game. 2-0, 4-1.

So I was in the top4 and played against the same guy from last round.

This time, sadly, he got his revenge and I lost. I would have killed him next turn when he killed me tought, he was lucky enough to draw a burn instead of a land last draw.

So top4 was:
1- My friend with Cunning wish landstill
2- Burn
3-4 Me with Eva Green and Canadian Belcher.

Nice tournament overall, Eva Green is really a solid deck; even with crappy draws sometimes I managed to win from nowhere with a Tombstalker or sinkhole fallowed by a wasteland. It's a really tuned deck, nice work on it guys.

Sek'Kuar

06-18-2008, 06:31 AM

electrolyze

06-18-2008, 07:00 AM

eva green isnt dead at all, but the build is already so optimized that commenting is not that needed anymore.

and not that many people play the deck, thats another factor that there arent that many comments anymore.

but it still gets good results i think(here in the netherlands, the deck gets often in the t8).

i'm planning to take eva green to a upcoming tourney this sunday, so if i get top8 i will write a little report.

AnwarA101

06-18-2008, 08:01 AM

Has Eva Green died out? It seems that no one is commenting on it anymore. I have been trying to scrounge up enough to build it, so I'm wondering if it is still viable. Does anybody have a tournament report, or a reason why I shouldn't play Eva Green now?

It made top8 at this tournament in May. I don't think it sees a great deal of play, but I still believe its a strong choice.

Bondeno (FE), Italy
May 18th, 2008
Decklists here.
37 players

1. R/W Goblins
2. Super Secret Mono-Black Tech
3. B/G Train Wreck
4. U/G/B Threshold
5. R/G/B Flow Madness
6. White Stax
7. Eva Green
8. White Stax

Henrik

06-18-2008, 09:48 AM

Has Eva Green died out? It seems that no one is commenting on it anymore. I have been trying to scrounge up enough to build it, so I'm wondering if it is still viable. Does anybody have a tournament report, or a reason why I shouldn't play Eva Green now?

I played Eva Green for a short while with quite some success. However, I felt I wanted to draw more than one cards each turn, in order to have a more versatile play-styler, and also have more answers to threats. I made a hybrid of deadguy and eva green, where I kept the awesome sideboard from eva green unchanged. I have posted this list in the deadguy thread already since it really plays out more like that deck, but I would like to present it for you as well, since I know players of different black decks often have common interests ;)
Nuf' said, here's the list:

CREATURES (14)
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

SORCERIES (15)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

INSTANTS (3)
3 Swords to Plowshares

ARTIFACTS (6)
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
3 Scrubland

SIDEBOARD
4 Choke
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

I played it in a small local tournament yesterday and I actually managed to win the whole thing. Feel free to comment, but please avoid comments like "that is not eva green" 'cause I know it isn't.

humppa

06-18-2008, 11:39 AM

Drawing more cards - i had the same problem :(

So I switched from Tombstalkers to Dark Confident, but after that I need to changed Snuff Out for something else (4 from confident + 4 from Snuff out is really to much :-)) - and I found swords is very nice option.

At the end - I finished with the Bgw version similar to yours.

I still have 4 Dark Rituals, but also usually first turn mana burn for one - I cast Shade, or Hymn, or Dark Confidant (for 1 I have only Thoughtseize, not playing Top right now), so I'm thinking about switched from Rituals to Mox Diamonds - what do you mean?

electrolyze

06-18-2008, 02:25 PM

the lists with confidant looks not bad but thats not eva green but deadguy.

eva green is a lot more tempo based then that deck and it plays slightly different than that one.

Sek'Kuar

06-21-2008, 08:48 AM

With the advent of Eventide (and b/g hybrid), can we expect to see some things that would be good in Eva Green? I know things like Drain the Well will be too expensive to take the place of sinkhole, but perhaps we can get something worthwhile in the form of draw?

Edit: Is there any reason NOT to run Bitterblossom? Sui-Black uses it to a degree of success... I'll shut up and build my deck now...

kikkofrio

06-26-2008, 01:08 PM

It made top8 at this tournament in May. I don't think it sees a great deal of play, but I still believe its a strong choice.

Bondeno (FE), Italy
May 18th, 2008
Decklists here.
37 players

1. R/W Goblins
2. Super Secret Mono-Black Tech
3. B/G Train Wreck
4. U/G/B Threshold
5. R/G/B Flow Madness
6. White Stax
7. Eva Green
8. White Stax

In this tournament I played vs:

1st turn: WR boros with fireblast (2-1)
2nd: goblin RW (2-0)
3rd: goblin RW (2-1)
4th: mono-black tech, not the usual monoblack (0-2)
5th: armageddon stax (2-0)
6th: draw

quarter: helldozer (1-2)

Three events this Sunday (June 22nd):

Rovereto di Cadeo
Location: Rovereto di Cadeo (PC)
Players: 31

Top 8:

1) Davide Rossi - UG Survival combo (Vial, Show&Tell)
2) Pietro Froio - Eva Green
3-4) Simone Giacquinto - Doran Rock
3-4) Emanuele Campiotti - UGR Thrash
5-8) Alessandro Teneggi - Dreadstill
5-8) Corrado Anchisi - RGB Chalice Loam
5-8) Giuseppe Bevilacqua - RW Goblins
5-8) Samuele Dagani - White Stax
.

In this:

1st turn: doran rock (0-2)
2nd: burn (2-0)
3rd: aggro elves (2-1)
4th: uw cunning landstill (2-0)
5th: uw cunning landstill (2-0)

quarter: ugr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (no canadian) (2-0)
semi: aggro loam (2-1)
final: UG Survival combo (Vial, Show&Tell) (2-1, the last game e sent him to 1 life point before he won)

nitewolf9

06-26-2008, 01:26 PM

Were you playing the "standard" build of the deck or did you make any interesting choices for those tournaments?

kikkofrio

06-26-2008, 02:57 PM

markbris

06-27-2008, 05:56 PM

In this tournament I played vs:

1st turn: WR boros with fireblast (2-1)
2nd: goblin RW (2-0)
3rd: goblin RW (2-1)
4th: mono-black tech, not the usual monoblack (0-2)
5th: armageddon stax (2-0)
6th: draw

quarter: helldozer (1-2)

What kind of mono-black tech?

NQN

06-28-2008, 05:17 AM

Against Staxx you have to take in your deeds and put out the sinkholes imho.

nitewolf9

06-28-2008, 11:34 AM

every time your build. I think any other different choice is subottimal for this deck.

I would ask you what u usually side in and out against:

- Thresh, counterbalance version
- Cunning landstill
- aggro loam
- dreadstill

I usually don't side vs:
-armageddon stax
-any stompy deck

Is it right?

-Thresh, CB: Depends on the build. Generally you can cut 3 seals and a single snuff out (only hits tarmogoyf against most builds) for 4 choke (choke tends to answer CB and provides a bomb against all builds). You could also try jitte but I'm not sure about that.

-Landstill: Usually -4 snuff out, +4 choke. Seal is very good here.

-Dreadstill: -4 sinkhole, +4 choke would be my plan of action.

-aggro loam: -4 sinkhole, -3 seal, +4 leyline, +3 jitte
(leave in seal if you see seismic assault, take out hymns instead)

-Armageddon stax: probably don't need to board here.

-Stompy varients: -3 hymn on the play, -3 thoughtseize on the draw (chalice)
+3 jitte usually.

conboy31

06-30-2008, 12:05 AM

I brought this deck to the lotus in MN. It was the regular list -4 shades for 1 ebon, 1 bitterblossom, 1 jailer, and another card.

I won vs mono black suicide (2-1), then vs ichorid (2-0). Lost my next two matches vs variations of landstill (1-2. 0-2). Then I lost to a fish countertop deck (0-2) and won vs. w/g/b witness aggro (2-1).

kikkofrio

07-06-2008, 04:24 PM

AnwarA101

07-06-2008, 07:33 PM

I won a 30 people tournament in Finale Emilia last sunday.

I went against:

aggro elves: 2-1 sided -3seal - 4 sinkhole + 3 jitte + 4 plague
Tes: 2-1 sided: - 4 snuff +4 plague. Is it right?
Ichorid: 2-1 sided: -3 seal -4 tourach -4snuff +3 jitte +4 plague +4leyline
Goblin rw: draw
Thresh ugw: graw

Quarter: thresh ugwr:2-1 sided: -1sinkhole -3 seal +4 choke. Is it right? He didn't play balance

Semi: Boros wr: sided: -3 seal + 3jitte
Final: thresh ugw no balance: -3 seal -1 snuff +4 choke

Won a tournament with eva green. Yeah!

Congratulations on winning the event. I think your sideboard against TES is correct. The Threshold sideboarding could involve cutting a Snuff Out instead of a Sinkhole especially if they play Mystic Enforcer which means that Snuff Out only hits Tarmogoyf. I like the combination of both Sinkhole, Wasteland, and Choke to really cut off their resources. What's your experience been like against Threshold? Did you play the basic list or did you make any changes?

kikkofrio

07-07-2008, 05:24 AM

I only play the standard list.
As already said. Any change is suboptimal for this deck.

I think Threshold MU is 50/50, before and after side. Land, ritual, hippy is the best start u can have. He must force it, and a tourach or anything else at turn 2 distrupt his hand.

Anyway, Eva green teaches me to mulligan.

Clark Kant

07-07-2008, 07:09 AM

I only play the standard list.
As already said. Any change is suboptimal for this deck.

So I guess that's one vote against Bitterblossom.

Any other takers. I'm really curious to see where Eva Green players come down on Bitterblossom seeing as it's a new card with a decent amount of potential and a lot of people are running it sui black variants, rightfully or not.

Galroth

07-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Bitterblossom is most definitely sub-optimal. Reason being is that Bitterblossom is simply too slow. Eva Green relies on a quick tempo (possibly even more then Suicide Black). Bitterblossom cannot hope to replace any threat in the deck because it does not kill with the immediate speed required and offered by all other threats (hyppie is even slow in this deck, and is included more for its ability to disrupt rather than its ability to kill).

Bitterblossom belongs in slower more controlling variants of black based decks. Pox, MBC, maybe sui.

I suppose you could look at cutting a non-threat to add Bitterblossom, but I don't see any match-ups this would notably improve. Just doesn't fit.

AnwarA101

07-07-2008, 08:47 PM

Anyway, Eva green teaches me to mulligan.

I'm glad to hear this. I've lost more games to keeping bad hands with this deck than anything else. Keep looking for good hands it will help you win.

So I guess that's one vote against Bitterblossom.

Any other takers. I'm really curious to see where Eva Green players come down on Bitterblossom seeing as it's a new card with a decent amount of potential and a lot of people are running it sui black variants, rightfully or not.

I've been discussing Bitterblossom with powergamer1003 and it seems very interesting except that its difficult to fit. I don't think it can replace any of the creatures. The only real place I can find for it is by cutting the 3 Seals as they are the most situational cards in the main deck.

Finally, I've been tinkering with an idea and it might seem out of left field. I've been thinking more and more of maindecking 4 Leyline of the Voids. My reasoning is that the card seems so good in the main deck against so many decks. Against Threshold you can make all their guys small and win the creature war. Against Survival you can cut off Anger,Witness, Genesis, Squee, etc. Against Aggro Loam you shut down the whole Loam engine and make most of their creatures small. Ofcourse the card is amazing against graveyard combo like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. The card also allows you to control to the size of opposing Tarmogoyfs as Leyline of the Void + Tombstalker means you can keep Tarmogoyfs tiny if you need to. I'm thinking of cutting 3 Seals and 1 Nantuko Shade (I'm not sure what other card to cut).

Illissius

07-07-2008, 10:22 PM

I think it was Tacosnape who had the idea of 4x maindeck Leylines in Suicide a while back, so it's definitely not unprecedented.

Shawon

07-07-2008, 10:30 PM

Well, if you're going to MD Leyline, you could always just use 3 MD Leyline and board in the 4th when you need to go into serious gy-hate mode.

AnwarA101

07-07-2008, 10:56 PM

Well, if you're going to MD Leyline, you could always just use 3 MD Leyline and board in the 4th when you need to go into serious gy-hate mode.

But is 3 a good number of Leylines? Sometimes you might know that you are playing against a certain deck where they are devastating and mulling for a 3 of is much worse than mulling for a 4 of. Three just didn't seem like the best number of Leylines. Am I wrong about this?

Shawon

07-07-2008, 11:42 PM

But is 3 a good number of Leylines? Sometimes you might know that you are playing against a certain deck where they are devastating and mulling for a 3 of is much worse than mulling for a 4 of. Three just didn't seem like the best number of Leylines. Am I wrong about this?

I was just speaking conservatively. 3 MD Leyline seems to be a safe call for the sake of testing, especially since you're trying out the idea. Immediately trying out 4 seems like you're have high expectations of seeing the card that might impact your view of the card, possibly higher than they should be. I look at it as "I'll try 3 Leyline, and I want to see more, I'll MD the 4th Leyline." I mean, if 4 Leyline is too much, are you really going to cut down to 3 or 2? I don't know you, but it just seems that the typical deckbuiler would just scrap MD Leyline altogether since it's a black-and-white card (or hit-or-miss if you don't like me calling Leyline of the Void white).

Ask yourself this: is mulling to Leyline your number one priority? Even if you have an accurate idea of your meta, if you face someone game 1, and don't know specifically what deck he's playing, are you going to mull into Leyline? I just don't think you need Leyline that badly, since you have other means of disruption (land/hand). But then again, I know very little about Eva Green so my logic might not entirely apply to this deck in terms of packing Leyline of the Void.

kikkofrio

07-08-2008, 01:43 PM

I think the only card could improve the standard build has not been created.
Eva green need draw engine, but obv not confidant.

Illissius

07-08-2008, 02:01 PM

Eva Green needs a draw engine in the same way that Landstill needs a better one-drop creature.

Kadaj

07-08-2008, 02:14 PM

What Illissius said. Seriously, Eva Green is an aggro deck to the extreme. You don't see Sligh looking left and right for draw engines do you? Same principle applies to Eva Green, and Suicide builds in general. Are there going to be games you lose because you drew too many lands and didn't have something like Confidant to push you through it? Sure. But there will be way more games you lose because Confidant isn't a threat on his own and you had to cut either a real threat or an important piece of removal to fit him.

Anyway, on a different note, I think Bitterblossom is one of those cards that looks amazing on paper but isn't quite as good in practice. It's obviously a strong card in a vacuum, but does this deck really want something that essentially says pay :1::b: , do nothing? I mean yes, you do get a creature the following upkeep, but Eva Green isn't exactly the sort of deck that can sit around and wait to create pressure. It has to come out of the blocks firing on all cylinders or decks with a stronger mid-game/late-game will brush it aside. I could be wrong, but I just don't get the impression this is a deck for Bitterblossom.

Illissius

07-08-2008, 02:18 PM

Bitterblossom is a very intriguing card for me, but not in a deck like this one which wants to win ASAP.

And the version of Eva Green with card advantage engines is called Deadguy Ale.

nitewolf9

07-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Leyline of the void is an interesting card to run in the maindeck. At first I thought it sounded silly, but the majority of decks are affected by it in at least some way. Being able to neuter tarmogoyfs with tomstalker when you need to is pretty good, and fighting against threshold game 1 when they only have 1/1's and 0/1's, plus maybe a few 3/3 pro black dudes, would be hilarious. It seems like it would also turn around a very bad matchup (ichorid), and drastically I might add (nice to be able to just autowin game 1 on turn 0 sometimes), and makes LD against loam and control decks like ITF or anything that uses loam/crucible that much better. It would probably weaken your percentages against goblins, but that matchup is helped dramatically by plague and jitte, and dragon stompy (where the loss of seal is probably going to be felt the most).

My question is, if you had 4 slots free in the board for this deck now that you have yard hate md, what would those slots be? More removal? More disruption? Maybe even more threats?

Clark Kant

07-08-2008, 03:52 PM

The question isn't whether on not Leyline is strong.

The question is whether it's superior to the card that it replaces in enough matchups to be worth MDing.

I take it that the card being replaced is 3 Seal of Primordium and something else (a Snuff Out or Shade perhaps?).

Clearly Leyline is superior against Thresh, Ichorid, Loam and some others. It's worse and useless against a number of matchups too. Even for combos, there's a crapton of combos that don't revolve around the yard. Painter's Grindstone and Belcher and some others come to mind.

So does this outweight it's pro?

nitewolf9

07-08-2008, 04:15 PM

Probably not but I think it's hilarious to drop turn 0 leyline on an ichorid player in game 1, and might actually make it worth playing for the satisfaction of that possible scenario alone.

In all seriousness though, in some metagames it would probably be amazing. In others it might be garbage. It certainly is an unconventional idea, and for the sake of argument let's assume we are running them in the main. How would that affect the boarding strategy of the deck?

The Legacy Weapon

07-14-2008, 01:47 PM

nitewolf9

07-14-2008, 02:23 PM

Anyone think that Unmake might be able to take the place of Snuff out? I know that Snuff Out is a free spell but the lifeloss really sucks for me especially because I'm using Ravnica Duals right now. I am going to eventually pick up the Bayous whenever I finally make myself but anyway, a three mana STP with no drawback seems pretty hot considering Dark Ritual really helps it out and sits in my hand doing nothing sometimes. Isn't it worth at least some testing? For one thing, Unmake can hit black creatures like opposing Tombstalkers.

Unmake simply costs too much for a removal spell for this deck. Snuff out is tempo on crack-cocaine and the life loss should not be a concern. I think getting bayous is vital to playing this deck, but in the mean time I don't think I would run unmake. Yes it is kind of cool to hit black creatures, but a free removal spell is pretty unreplaceable in this deck. You need to be more concerned with efficiency since 9/10 times you will be the aggro deck. Additionally, unmake still doesn't do anything about mystic enforcer, and if I went to a 3 cc removal spell I would expect it to have more of an impact. It can't hold a candle to swords as a removal spell, and is infinitely less efficient than snuff out.

Edit: Even putrefy seems better, considering it can hit artifacts as well, and I wouldn't run that either. I suppose you can randomly ritual Unmake out to answer lacky on the draw, which you can't do with putrefy, but 2 for 1'ing myself against goblins is not my idea of a good play if you're not gaining a significant tempo boost for it.

Slayer001

07-14-2008, 06:10 PM

I'm with nitewolf on this, snuff out won me alot of games because its free. And unmake costs 3 black mana wich is to much for what it is does, if it costed two we could have considered it but 3 is just to much. Free removal is the best you can have, so I will stay with snuff out.

kicks_422

07-20-2008, 09:42 AM

Is the Seal of Primordium MD really worth it? Has anybody tried replacing them with something else, like Extirpate?...

Clark Kant

07-20-2008, 11:38 AM

If you can't support the lifeloss for Snuff Out due to Ravinca duals.

A 2/2 split of Ghastly Demise (black's 2nd-3rd best removal spell) and Shriekmaw is a decent option to play instead of Snuff Out.

I run a similar 2/2 split of Snuff Out and Shriekmaw in my sui black list. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=252203&postcount=1333)

As for possible Seal replacements, can I endorse 3 Reanimate for that slot, for perhaps the 10th time in this thread. Reanimate really is a very solid card now that you run Thoughtseize and Snuff Out and/or Shriekmaw maindeck as well as a lot of your own guys worth reanimating.

From what I've seen, Reanimate is a superior threat to Nantuko Shade. So you could even cut a Shade or two to make room.

nitewolf9

07-20-2008, 10:15 PM

This weekend at the 1k event I ran pithing needle in the seal slot (and extirpate instead of jitte to "hate on ichorid", which was a mistake...should of either been yixlid jailer or just jitte) and I liked it. The idea was to improve the matchup against survival, which was expected to show up there. In testing it helped alot in that matchup while also being stellar against control, goblins, and painter (not that this deck needs help there). It hits top, and can also hit fetchlands if you want to add to the mana denial package. Just another option for you guys to consider. It turned out to be quite versatile.

Too bad I got rolled by ichorid and then TES right afterward in rounds 2 and 3. TES is usually a pretty good MU, but he had some busted hands. Combo decks do that sometimes (I even thoughtseized his wincon turn 1 each game, still lost on turn 3 each time). Wound up going 4-3, but I had fun and got a feel for some new directions for the deck.

Nihil Credo

07-22-2008, 05:01 PM

Out of curiosity, has anyone managed to get the manabase to work for a third colour splash (most likely white for Vindicate)?

nitewolf9

07-22-2008, 05:12 PM

I was toying around with the idea of -3 swamp +3 scrubland, -3 seal +3 vindicate, but I'm not sure you gain very much with the addition of vindicate. It tends to cost too much for whatever it does, which might not make up for its versatility in a deck like this. Plus, once you splash white, do you play swords in the board? What other options does it give the deck? Is just vindicate worth it?

kikkofrio

07-23-2008, 03:41 AM

Better: -2 swamp + 2 scrubland - 3 seal + 3 vindicate.

Vindicate is an universal solution, better than seal...but obv playing vindicate is more difficoult than playing seal.

Let's try.

Frenkill

08-02-2008, 10:19 AM

Deadguy Ale runs Vindicate over Seal of Cleansing. It is the better card. Especialy for a deck with Wasteland and Sinkhole.

But Eva Green is much more aggressive than Deadguy Ale! Thats why it runs the 4 Tombstakler over Dark Confidant. To spend 1 more mana for a card that realy often does the same like the Seal isn't realy aggressive.

Against Vial Goblins or Landstill/Dreadstill I would prefer the Seal. Angainst any Deck with Wasteland I would rather play the 2-colour Mana base than the 3-colour.

It is not worth to spash the third colour to play Vindicate.

Slayer001

08-03-2008, 06:52 AM

Yea, I don't think that splashing also for white will be good, it will be harder against decks that use wastelands. It will be harder to keep your mana up because they will almost all be nonbasics. Blood moon and magus will hurt alot more then it does now sometimes. I'll keep my eva green without white, vindicate doesn't add to much, if I would play white it was for swords but that's just another deck

Tom709

08-12-2008, 06:42 AM

I used to play Null Rod in Type 1 Suicide. It seems that it might have a spot (replacing seal) in Eva Green. Here is a list of cards Null Rod hurts:

Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, Mishra's Factory, Chome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Goblin Charbelcher, Nevinyrral's Disk, Mox Diamond, Vedalken Shackles, Isochron Scepter, Aether Vial, Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Light and Shadow, Grindstone, just to name a few.

Is it time for Null Rod in Legacy?

nitewolf9

08-12-2008, 11:07 AM

Null Rod was really good in type 1 because it shut off moxen, and helped out the resource denial plan of sui against control decks. I think it is probably too narrow for legacy...sometimes it really does nothing. Pithing needle would accomplish most of what null rod does and has the added advantage of helping you out immensely vs survival, a scarier matchup for this deck. Needle also hits deed which can let you speed up your clock against board control.

PS. How does null rod affect mishra's factory other than not allowing it to pump itself/another factory while animated?

rsaunder

08-12-2008, 11:41 AM

I don't think Null Rod is applicable, sadly. So many decks just don't care about it. Also, it does nothing to needle and doesn't even pretend to do anything to enchantments like humility or deed which are kinda what a deck like this really doesn't want to see. I think (strongly) that an arguement could be made for Kgrip in the seal slot, though. It's not proactive, which sucks, but being able to shut off deed or EE or be an uncounterable answer to humility might be enough for me.

esmandil

08-16-2008, 07:57 AM

I have been playing this deck sporadically, but I wonder if there is anything that could be added to the sideboard to help in burn matchup. Jitte itself does not seem enough, especially since Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker are the only creatures you are likely to keep on the table.

kikkofrio

08-16-2008, 08:59 AM

nitewolf9

08-16-2008, 12:57 PM

If you wana stomp burn play a single scrubland in the main and board in gerrard's verdicts. I do not recommend this though unless burn is like 30 percent of your meta. Man, that would be pretty funny though.

SuckerPunch

08-17-2008, 12:04 AM

Anyone saying that the white splash for Vindicate (over Seal) isn't worth it because Vindicate usually is used on the same things that Seal is used on, honestly doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

Let me tell you, splashing white into this deck and playing Vindicate is absolutely broken.

Seriously, far more than blowing up enchantments/artifacts, I usually use Vindicate to take out lands.

Combined with Wasteland and Sinkhole, Vindicate makes the deck completely rips your opponent's manabases a new one.

Not to mention that Vindicate is great against opposing Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers too.

So consider my post a very hearty endorsement of splashing white into the deck to play Vindicate MD and Gerrard's Verdict/Hidden Gibbons in the board.

Do it, seriously. It's the next natural evolution of the deck.

Here is my list (I ripped it off another list someone posted here, and it's been fantastic)...

Eva 2.0

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out
3 vindicate
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
3 scrubland
3 swamp

On that same note, has anyone tried out the random one of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth he suggested. It seems like a great way to let you use Wastelands to play second turn Sinkhole/Hymn/Shades more often.

Shawon

08-17-2008, 12:23 AM

Hey, aren't you one of the guys who argued for Tarmogoyf being BANNED in Legacy over at Star City Games?

Jaiminho

08-17-2008, 12:25 AM

I always see people running Reanimate instead of more threats or more removal and I never get it. Since Reanimate will usually bring back a creature that went down in combat, you could run more removal so that your own creature won't leave the red zone in the first place. The other option is to actually run more creatures to compensate for the loss of a threat, nullifying the argument Reanimate might have against discard, since it will count as a threat because it in, in fact, a threat. In the case of SuckerPunch's list, why not up Nantuko Shade and Snuff Out to 4 and down Reanimate to 0?

And I'm aware it does bring enemy creatures back, but it simply doesn't matter, since if an opposing threat has gone down, it doesn't outclass the one that killed it, so your board position is still favorable.

SuckerPunch

08-17-2008, 12:30 AM

Play Reanimate, and then get back to me.

You act like you never see a game where your opponent resolves their Goyf and you kill it (Snuff Out, Vindicate, Thoughtseize take your pick).

If your Goyfs die in combat, then yes, you do Reanimate him, but that's not the only point.

More often than not, Reanimate reanimates your opponents Goyfs and other broken threats from their deck.

But perhaps more imporantly, Thoughtseize puts your opponents best creature into their yard, 9 times out of 10. Getting it on your side for just one black mana and two life (three for Sea Drake, four for Rakdos Pit Dragon) is a fantastic investment.

I wouldn't play Shade over Reanimate for the following reason.

Tarmogoyf >>>> Shade
Reanimate = Goyf #5-6.

Shade, Snuff Out and Tombstalker are three cards that I HATE HATE HATE seeing multiples off the same game. The second shade is a 2/1, the second Snuff Out usually bring your lifetotal way too low, and the second Tombstalker is just straight up unplayable. Of those three, I left Tombstalker as a 4 of because I absolutely wanted to see one every single game. Snuff Out wasn't important since Vindicate and Thoughtseize do the same thing. And Shade wasn't important as Goyf just straight up outclasses it.

Jak

08-17-2008, 12:33 AM

SuckerPunch

08-17-2008, 01:48 AM

Do you think I would be better off cutting a Scrubland for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Not having to sac (and lose life to) fetchlands is nice.

Not getting colorscrewed by drawing two of your own Wastelands is awesome.

Valtrix

08-17-2008, 10:34 AM

Yeah, scrubland would probably make the most sense for one urborg. You're just cutting a non-basic for another, so that wouldn't matter much, and urborg can generally help out your games a little bit.

Also, I think that reanimate is a good choice. It seems like you'd lose a lot of life with snuff out/thoughtseize/reanimate, but you should hopefully be racing them to begin with. I can't see the 2-of hurting you all that much more. Also Jak, hitting a stalker with reanimate might not be the best play unless you can afford 8 life =P

yankeedave

08-18-2008, 08:01 AM

Hey Ya'll

I have FINALLY got my playset of 'Goyfs, so would love to be reminded of the diffenative list for this deck! I have looked back through and see several posts all containing decklists, but they vary widely. Some play Jitte maindeck, some run Smother, others play Snuff Out. Some play Grip MD and some Seal of Primordium. And can we resolve the Reanimate question? It seems like a strong play, with all the discard!

Can someone (Nitewolf9 :smile: ) maybe tell me the VERY best list of the moment? Thanks!

Yankee

kidsmokin

08-18-2008, 09:30 AM

SuckerPunch

08-18-2008, 10:06 AM

Can someone maybe tell me the VERY best list of the moment? Thanks!

I've played this deck for a while and this is the very best list imho.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262059&postcount=403

But if you want to keep it simple, the opening list is solid too.

nitewolf9

08-18-2008, 11:17 AM

The opening list is essentially the optimum build, although I've been trying pithing needle over seal and have been liking it. Anwar and I are also revamping the board because the current one was pretty much based directly on the board for Masque of the Red Death, a deck that existed in a completely different environment. I do think engineered plague is still very good, and I will continue to use it in the board. Leyline of the void is also very strong and another spot that I believe to be set in stone. So that leaves 7 other slots to play with. With needle main I think grip in the board might be extremely useful against many decks, although I do not think grip belongs in the main deck. Additional graveyard hate might also be needed if you plan on beating ichroid at all.

I am not really a fan of splashing a third color in this deck as I think vindicate is unnecessary and not worth what you sacrifice with your mana base. But you could also give that a shot as I haven't really tested it.

Galroth

08-18-2008, 01:28 PM

I thought I'd add my weight behind SuckerPunch. I also think the addition of Vindicate is the next evolution of this deck, and unlike Nitewolf I feel the splash for the third color does warrant the slight additional strain on the manabase.

However, I am not convinced that Reanimate should be included. Like Jaiminho I'd like to see the 2x Reanimate cut and an additional Snuff Out and Nantuko Shade included. Even though you don't want to see doubles of these in your opening hand, you do always want to see atleast one copy of them (particularly Snuff Out) in your opening hand.

nitewolf9

08-18-2008, 02:01 PM

I tell you guys what, I'll actually test vindicate and get back to you with an educated opinion as opposed to a guess, and I'll hold judgement until then. I don't want to stifle any new ideas that could be good. There is a concentration of very good legacy players around here so I think the information will be useful.

Edit: On second thought, I probably won't be testing it. My unhealthy obsession with vindicate must not be a factor in playing it. I still think it probably isn't very good in this particular deck simply because it costs too much to do too little. I'll take the chance of someone making me eat my words with a good showing in a big tourney with the white splash build.

Deep6er

08-18-2008, 03:20 PM

Vindicate costs too much for something that doesn't do enough. Seriously, think about it. The only way you don't lose tempo on a Vindicate is by destroying something that costs more mana. It's very rare to destroy something more than three mana in Legacy. It's clunky, and unwieldy. Plus, why bastardize your manabase? Your matchup against Dragon Stompy is actually pretty decent, but weakening it in this manner (for something that isn't even very good) will weaken that matchup.

You don't want cards that are slow in a deck that's based around tempo. All it does is weaken your core strategy and contort the deck into something it's not.

SuckerPunch

08-18-2008, 04:56 PM

You can argue that you don't think splashing another color is worth it, that's fine. But arguing that Vindicate costs you tempo more often than Seal doesn't make any sense at all.

Vindicate gains you tempo. Blowing up your opponents second land after you just Sinkholed or Wasted his first one is a very very strong tempo boost.

It's usually enough to mana screw your opponent and set them back by several turns.

Blowing up your opponents Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought is a very strong play as well.

I don't know about you guys, but there have been many games where I had Seal in my hand, or on the board, and no targets for it. Lots of decks don't play any artifacts/enchantments and those that do often play so few that they don't see them half the games they play.

Seal is a dead card quite a lot. That costs you tempo. Vindicate is never dead and always blows up lands.

I used to be unhappy to see a Seal about half the time that I drew it. I'm almost always happy to draw a Vindicate. I am probably going to up the count to 4 in fact.

Tenant_Tron

08-18-2008, 05:16 PM

If we are going to use the last 3 spots of the deck, and potentially a 4th, on Vindicate, I think it would make a lot of sense to also try playing STP, perhaps in the slot of Snuff Out. I think this would make it a different deck though, basically DeadGoyf Ale, but it seems like the direction this discussion is going in.

T.T

Deep6er

08-18-2008, 05:16 PM

No, Vindicate costs you tempo because you could have played a creature to capitalize on the gains after a Sinkhole/Wasteland instead of hoping that they don't have any more lands in their hand. All you did was trade a turn of yours for a turn of theirs. Nothing happened.

Dan's been playing Pithing Needle over Seal for awhile now. I think the card is stellar and have been a big fan of it since testing has shown that it significantly shores up the Survival matchup. Plus, Needle is hardly dead because using it proactively to shut off Wastelands supplements the mana denial strategy.

They are your cards dude, but playing sub-optimally is what we are trying to avoid here.

kidsmokin

08-18-2008, 05:37 PM

The issue with Vindicate is thus:
1. Splashing the 3rd color weakens the manabase, as Deep6er has noted. While in many matchups this isn't much of an issue, it does increase your vulnerability to waste and Moon-hate. One
2. I don't see Vindicate as a particularly proactive card. You wait until something appears on the table that's worth Vindicating, or you just use it on a land. You're either paying for a bad Sinkhole or a bad Snuff Out. While there's versatility I think you're usually better off doing other things like backing your hombres up with discard, leaving them with less answers to your guys. Or just dropping another Goyf or Tombstalker. Problems for them are already aplenty.
3. Vindicate is a sorcery. It's not even that it's not an instant (well, it would be borked if it was, but I'll touch on this in a bit).

Things about Seal that make it preferable:
1. No 3rd color. Getting Green cut off somehow (possible via Moon, etc.) really only invalidates a total of 10 cards (counting the 3 Bayous, 4 Goyf, 3 Seal). With the 3rd color you lose 13 (3 Bayou, 4 Goyf, 3 Vindicate, 3 Sinkhole), while seemingly small it could make the difference between a game won or lost.
2. Seal is proactive. Fire and forget. Putting it on the table can change the game state, forcing the opponent to play around it, meaning that they're really wasting time trying to find answers, allowing you to go ahead with your game plan. 90% of decks pack artifacts or enchantments of some sort, so I don't see how Seal could ever possibly be dead 50%.
3. Seal is an enchantment. Nothing around to hit? So what? Sac it so Goyf gets +1/+1, or sac it so you get 1 off your Tombstalker. Vindicate still helps with regards to the Tombstalker, but subtly Seal provides additional Goyf-beef. With Vindicate if you have nothing to hit, it sits in your hand doing nothing, and the worst thing for this deck is for it to hold stuff in its hand.

My 2cents on the Vindicate question, mostly off the top of my head.

Jaiminho

08-18-2008, 05:49 PM

You can argue that you don't think splashing another color is worth it, that's fine. But arguing that Vindicate costs you tempo more often than Seal doesn't make any sense at all.

Playing proactively means you get to play whenever you wish, which means Seal will come whenever you got mana left or sooner than that if you need it. Vindicate is reactive, so it can't be casted in that first situation. This costs you more resources.

A land destruction spell that costs 3 mana will not break your opponent's tempo if they are unable to find a 3rd land by their 3rd or 4th turn. It's main use as doubling Sinkhole would be to hit tool and man lands or screw colors, nothing else. Blowing up lands only because there's no better use for Vindicate is completely useless, so whenever Seal is dead, Vindicate might be as dead.

Shawon

08-18-2008, 06:06 PM

Nothing around to hit? So what? Sac it so Goyf gets +1/+1, or sac it so you get 1 off your Tombstalker.

Nitpick here. You need a legal target for Seal to use its ability. Carry on.

nitewolf9

08-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Nitpick here. You need a legal target for Seal to use its ability. Carry on.

Announce targets, pay costs. Wasteland can target itself. So can seal. The ability will obviously be countered on resolution.

Shawon

08-18-2008, 06:08 PM

Wow, I never knew that. Thanks, good thing I spoke up.

nitewolf9

08-18-2008, 06:11 PM

No problem. I actually lost a game due to overlooking this a couple of years ago. I was playing red death against solidarity and my rotting giant was one attack away from ending the game, but I had no cards in my yard and a wasteland on the table (2 swamps to go with it, no duals). I could have wasted my own wasteland to swing in but I didn't and lost the next turn when he went off with a top-decked high tide. Boo. It was probably Dave, too. That sonofabitch.

SuckerPunch

08-18-2008, 06:32 PM

AnwarA101

08-18-2008, 06:43 PM

All this theorizing that Vindicate is not proactive or loses tempo makes it clear that you haven't actually ever tried the card with Sinkhole + Wasteland.

You say that all blowing up an extra land does is trade one of your turns for one of theirs.

That's fine in theory. But it almost never works out that way in reality.

In reality, that second or third land you blow up on average sets your opponent back by 3 turns. That's not an exatteration.

But clearly, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. So let's just drop it. If you're willing to try the card, feel free. If not, even though you have the cards to do so, it's your loss.

There is nothing wrong with trying Vindicate, but thinking about the card can be helpful in evaluating it. In reality you can only try a limited number of cards because there simply isn't enough time to test every card.

Vindicate is like you stated can blow up additional lands in addition to any permanent. This is its greatest asset. But I think you are overlooking its drawback. It costs 3 mana one of which is white that means you almost never play this card before turn 3 something that can't be said of any other card in the deck (even Tombstalkers and Hyppies can come down early with rituals). If you blow up a land, its an expensive Sinkhole. If you kill a creature with it, it costs 3 more mana than Snuff Out. If you kill an enchantment or artifact its one more mana than Seal of Primordium. The main question is the card being slower than Seal or Pithing Needle worth the extra time it takes to play the card.

I suspect that in certain matchups Vindicate might be better because being slower will matter less because you have time to play it, but there maybe other times where paying that extra mana is just too slow. I'm not sure which situation is more likely to come up, but its possible that testing Vindicate makes sense if you believe that the former situation is more likely than the latter.

SuckerPunch

08-18-2008, 07:14 PM

You are right of course that Vindicate costs one more mana than Sinkhole, Seal or Smother (a card that has been brought up here to supplement and avoid the lifeloss of snuff out).The point is that Vindicate functions the role of all three cards in one.

You can't tell me that you never have a situation where you have a Seal when what you need to kill is a Goyf to prevent your opponent from winning...

when you have a Snuff Out when the card you want to take out is your opponents last remaining land...

when you have a Sinkhole when what you need to blow up is their Shackles...

when you have a Snuff Out but the creature you need to kill is a Tombstalker or Hypnotic Specter or Nantuko Shade or Dark Confidant (people seem to forget here that Snuff Out is near useless against black creatures and on top of that also costs you four life).

I played normal Eva Green for a while. And after trying Vindicate, I'm very certain that the versatility Vindicate offers is worth every bit the additional mana cast.

kidsmokin

08-18-2008, 07:26 PM

You are right of course that it costs one more mana than Sinkhole, Seal or Smother (a card that has been brought up here to avoid the lifeloss of snuff out).The point is that it functions the role of all three cards in one.

Yes, it functions at all of those, but the point is that Vindicate is overpriced for what those do. This deck relies on efficiency and tempo, and Vindicate doesn't provide either of those for strictly tempo-riffic deck.

You can't tell me that you never have a situation where you have a Seal when what you need to kill is a Goyf to prevent your opponent from winning...

You have Goyf too, Tombstalker and Hyppie soar over Goyf, and Shade can knock out a Goyf. An opponent's Goyf isn't that big of a deal, because you're also running the sexiest tempo card out there, Snuff Out.

when you have a Snuff Out when the card you want to take out is your opponents last remaining land...

If your opponent only has one land, your deck has been doing its job, no? You might as well be piloting to wreck the opponent's face with Goyfs and Tombstalkers. You only need to worry when they start reaching higher land counts, and by then you should have won the game.

when you have a Sinkhole when what you need to blow up is their Shackles...

Any opponent playing Shackles should be dead by the time it comes online vs. your important threats. I can see how an early Shackles can nab a Goyf, but under normal circumstances your Goyf should surpass Shackle-age by the time it comes active. It can also nab Shade, but do what you must and pump it out of Shackle range to save it. If your opponent has enough Islands to Shackle your creatures, you deserve to lose or you started with the worst hand ever. Really, Seal also deals with Shackles here, keeping it off the table to begin with. Also, if you know your opponent has Shackles, it doesn't seem like a bright idea to walk right into it.

when you have a Snuff Out but the creature you need to kill is a Tombstalker (people seem to forget here that Snuff Out is near useless against black creatures and on top of that also costs you four life).

This seems to be the only relatively viable argument, but the deck's got a larger threat density than others packing Tombstalker, so you can easily trade Tombstalkers or trade your Shade and still be on top.

Oh, and the life loss from Snuff Out is never a big issue, because you typically win before those life points become relevant.

edit: I really don't mean to be so forthwith about it but discussion is always healthy, no?

Sek'Kuar

08-18-2008, 07:34 PM

My problem is that I am still unsure about the inherent instability of the manabase when given a white splash. Most metas are rampant with land destruction effects, and with wasteland being so common in Legacy, I'm just not convinced that a whole extra color for one card is warranted.

FaceInYourCrowd

08-18-2008, 09:42 PM

newfag here...some thoughts...

What benifits does thoughtsieze give us over Cabal Therapy, other than the fact that the legacy meta is so huge so its not always easy to know what to name. There are a select number of cards that we want to handle, so I don't think its such a stretch. Nailing two plows out of someones hand single handedly can win games for us.

Also if we don't want to run dark confidant, what is stopping us from running divining top. Digging three deep to set up our draws could really help, and with up to 8 fetch lands we could be looking at a lot of cards at once!

I apologize if this has all come up already!

Van Phanel

08-18-2008, 09:55 PM

newfag here...some thoughts...

What benifits does thoughtsieze give us over Cabal Therapy, other than the fact that the legacy meta is so huge so its not always easy to know what to name.

The fact that this deck doesn't want to sacrifice any of its creatures as every single one of them can end the game by itself.

Also if we don't want to run dark confidant, what is stopping us from running divining top. Digging three deep to set up our draws could really help, and with up to 8 fetch lands we could be looking at a lot of cards at once!

Top is only really useful if you have either specific cards to dig for, or it combos with something else you play (Counterbalance, Trinket Mage, Confidant come to mind) otherwise it's one card you spend to set up your draws for the next turns but slowing you down on the way. As Eva Green wants to tap out for disruption spells and then creatures a lot in the first turns, top wouldn't be good and in topdeck mode Eva Green is already better than many other decks anyway.

SuckerPunch

08-19-2008, 06:22 AM

kidsmokin, you're completely missing the point.

I find your statement that opposing Goyfs and Tombstalkers never pose a problem for you beyond laughable. You make it sound like you will always see a Snuff Out whenever you need one, and a Sinkhole whenever you could use one. Reality disagrees.

There is such a thing as the wrong answer. All of the answers the deck currently runs fall into that trap. Vindicate however almost never does. It can answer anything and everything. Too often, you have the wrong answer in your hand, an answer that doesn't deal with the threat you need to deal with. Plenty of games, you have a Seal in hand and it doesn't do jack against the real problem card. It doesn't get you out of the mess you're in.

Paying one more mana to ensure that you have an answer that is never the answer, that can always deal with the biggest problem card on the table, be it a Kor Haven, a Ghostly Prison, or a Tombstalker (one of the several creatures that Snuff Out does jack against) is worth it in my experience.

Frid

08-19-2008, 07:22 AM

Hey guys im thinking about making an eva green. Ill post my list and some ideas so discuss plz.

Lands.

3 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
10 swamp

Creatures

4 Hyppie.
4 Dark confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf

Disruption.

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 smother
4 Diabolic edict
3 Duress

Good stuff

4 Dark ritual
3 umezawa´s jitte

I have no land disruption becouse in my meta there is lots loam decks, and monocolor decks like elves, goblins... This way i can run less lands and more black mana for the shades.

8 anticreatures: I prefeare 8 anti creatures than 4 and 4 siknholes. i didnt choose snuff out becouse its mana cost (i play confidant) and becouse it doesnt kill confidants.

Im not sure if playing hippie nowdays is suboptimal, Its not that good unless you start mana dark ritual hippy and any random anticreatures kills it, what do you think, maybe sarcomancy on that slot?

Clark Kant

08-19-2008, 07:29 AM

That build is closer to Deadguy than Eva Green.

Every single person in this thread is going to tell you something akin to...

-4 Confidant
-4 Edict
-3 Swamp
-3 Smother

4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
3 Tombstalker (bare minimum)
3 Snuff Out (bare miniumum)

They are going to be absolutely correct. Which is why I am telling you to do the same thing.

You clearly don't have the mana base to splash white, so please just run the build in the threads opening. That's ideal.

Frid

08-19-2008, 07:49 AM

The original list looks uggly for me, no draw and 4 tombastalker seems so much for me.

Even if i add tombstalker and snuff out im planing to remove sinkhole, that is not gona be effective in my meta.

Anyway im going to test it if thats suposed to be better than my list.

Clark Kant

08-19-2008, 08:26 AM

I can relate to not liking 4 Tombstalker and 4 Snuff Out. You never get to play the second one that you draw.

But you should be running 3 of each at the very least in every build of this deck.

Sinkhole is a really solid card. But if you don't have it or the Wastelands to supplement it, you may be okay with running more creature kill and duress. If you have the cards though, you should definately run Sinkhole + Wasteland. They really throw your opponents off balance.

nitewolf9

08-19-2008, 11:07 AM

First off, I disagree that you cannot play the 2nd tombstalker you draw. That is false, and I generally want to see more than 1 as the game progresses. He is the best threat in the deck. You have a lot of stuff going to your yard and you also play dark ritual.

Secondly, at the list with confidant, that doesn't really seem like the same deck we are discussing at all. It looks like deadguy without white and without LD. Confidant does not really belong in this deck for reasons discussed many times in this thread. Two of the major reasons, not even going into strategic differences, are tombstalker and snuff out.

Seriously guys, those cards are insane. Tombstalker is a hard to kill, cheap to cast flying monster and snuff out is FREE.

Frid

08-19-2008, 11:19 AM

What about hippie? i had the sense that it was sub omptimal unless you start with dark ritual.

PD: Im testing the deck and the mana curve seems strange to me (unless, again, you start with dark ritual)

SuckerPunch

08-22-2008, 07:45 PM

Hippe isn't suboptimal. Even on turn three, it's a creature that is a must remove card for every legacy viable deck except for combo and Boros. Otherwise, picking off cards from your opponent at random is going to take it's toll on them quickly. And if it is removed, that's one less removal for Goyf/Tombstalker.

Since the thread seems to have died, here is my attempt to revive it.

Here is a different take on the Seal vs. Vindicate debate.

Here is a direct comparison of Seal vs. Vindicate in all three possible scenarios...

1. You're the one with advantage over the board. Here, it doesn't really matter much whether the card you have in hand is Seal or Vindicate. It's more likely that your board advantage translates to you beating them down with a big creature, so if they play a defender, Vindicate has the edge in being able to take it out.

But the scenarios where you are either at a stalemate or in a losing board position are the more relevent ones, and they are below...

2. The biggest most annoying card in your opponents control is an artifact or enchantment. Here, both Seal and Vindicate have the same effect, except Vindicate costs one more mana. Advantage Seal, but once again, it's not a huge advantage.

3. The biggest most annoying card still in your opponents control is not an artifact or enchantment. It could be an opposing Tombstalker/Exalted Angel etc, a Maze of Ith/Kor Haven, a Plainswalker, whatever. This is where Vindicate is hands down without question superior to Seal.

The one exception to this is of course standstill/landstill decks. Against those deck, Seal is usually better. So if your meta is packed with them, Seal is the right call. Mine however isn't.

Otherwise, it's up to your judgment how often scenario three comes up. If you are absolutely adamant that you always have a Snuff Out in hand every single time an opponent plays a threat that matches your own, a Wasteland in hand ready for every single time you need to take out an opposing land, etc, and adamant that you never win games based entirely on color screwing or mana screwing your opponents by blowing up all your opponents lands, then it's not worth playing Vindicate. Otherwise, it is.

Ramptoniin

08-22-2008, 08:03 PM

Hey everyone, n00b here, but long time player

I've been playing some Evagreen variations in recent weeks.

this is what I was testing out, but I Like what im running now better (closer to suckeprunches build)

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted delta
3 Bayou
2 Scrublands
1 Urborg Tomb Of Yawgmoth
3 Swamps

21 Lands

Spells:
3 Diabolic Edict (I like this over snuff out, except for it not being free, Both cards have their advantages and draw backs)
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll (This was just an idea I was toying around with, it is now cut)

24 Spells

Creatures:
3 Dark confidant (Switched to 4 Tombstalkers, and cut a Shade now)
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade

This deck in my opinion has lots of potential and if you play it "Smart" (I.e. playing a hymn over sinkhole and vice versa in proper situations) you can get top 8 easily, which is why I think you see Evagreen speckling top 8s, it can be very weird judgement calls on what to play, a Discard spell, or a Sinkhole.

Sucker, What does your SB look like?

Right now ive got

3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 (Open slot)

I've been toying with the Idea of running STP main deck which would move the deck into Deadguy territory, or atleats running it in SB for Burn Matchups, but im not sure.

Im also pretty happy with Tombstalker over Confidant currently, but im not full convinced, although it seems every time I get a Confidant he has 1 of 3 outcomes, 1, Gets Countered, Killed Somehow, or worst case Scenario....SHACKLED!

I know My build was pretty subpar to an extent but it was just testing some ideas out.

SuckerPunch

08-22-2008, 08:16 PM

I actually retuned my list a bit after some heavy testing.

I haven't posted it here so here you go...

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 snuff out
2 swords to plowshares (could be reanimate too)

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
3 bayou
3 scrubland
2 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

The Urborg is there because it randomly saves me anywhere from 1-3 life whenever I draw it by me not having to sac fetchlands to use them.

Yes it's near identical to clark kant's list but I've played the absolute crap out of Eva Green and the above list and am 100% happy with it. It almost never lets me down so it will stay the same.

If you get a chance to, try out the above list. I'm really liking the 2/2 split between Snuff Out and StP. Snuff Out is great for being free and dealing with pro white guys like Akroma, A of Fury. StP is great for dealing with black creatures, pro black creatures, recurring creatures, all for a very cheap cost.

The maindeck is 100% complete and I'm 100% happy with it. Though, there is nothing wrong with running 3 Vindicate either. I have thought a lot about going -1 Vindicate +1 Snuff Out and possibly bringing the reanimates back in, in place of StP. But right now, I'm heavily focusing on the sideboard.

I wouldn't be able to answer your question because at the moment my sideboard is up in the air.

Ramptoniin

08-22-2008, 08:20 PM

PM me your AOL IM if you have it....would be nice to shoot around Ideas/Builds with someone who appreciates this deck as much as I do

It is funny, before I located my Reanimates in an old deck box I was thinking "hmm I could probably use STP instead"

Evagreen minds think alike

Also heavy seconded on using Vindicate in more situations than Seal

1st Turn, Ritual Hippie
2nd Turn, Sinkhole
3rd Turn Vindicate
4th Turn Goyf.....maybe a Wasteland, Hymn, Another Sinkhole, Creature removal (if they have one)

The deck is a TANK, Vindicate is such an incredible Toolbox card

Edit :

I think I may run Seal over Krosan, although the idea of Seal being Stifled irks me...

Ramptoniin

08-22-2008, 08:36 PM

I know your meta is probably far different than mine, but have you considered SB for Choke?

SuckerPunch

08-22-2008, 08:44 PM

Yeah, Stifle was one of the things I really hated about Seal.

Choke is a really strong card. I'm sure it's been discussed in this thread. Do a search (click "search this thread"). I am seeing how I could make room for it.

I'm also seeing if there's any really solid white sideboard cards.

I think Serenity has potential against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress and various equipment heavy decks.

But on a more interesting note, I'm really heavily leaning towards running a transformational board.

Transform into Pox!!

Sideboarding:
+2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+2 Mishra's Factory
+3 Pox
+4 Rancid Earth
+4 Smallpox

Cutting:
-4 Dark Ritual
-4 Hypnotic Specter
-3 Nantuko Shdae
-2 Snuff Out
-2 Thoughtseize/StP/Reanimate

You end up with a no comprimises pretty much optimal Pox list doing that...

If I didn't want to place first in my upcoming tourney so bad, I would absolutely give that idea a shot, just because it looks so ridiculously fun to transform this deck into Pox.

AnwarA101

08-22-2008, 11:47 PM

If you get a chance to, try out the above list. I'm really liking the 2/2 split between Snuff Out and StP. Snuff Out is great for being free and dealing with pro white guys like Akroma, A of Fury. StP is great for dealing with black creatures, pro black creatures, recurring creatures, all for a very cheap cost.

The maindeck is 100% complete and I'm 100% happy with it. Though, there is nothing wrong with running 3 Vindicate either. I have thought a lot about going -1 Vindicate +1 Snuff Out and possibly bringing the reanimates back in, in place of StP. But right now, I'm heavily focusing on the sideboard.

I wouldn't be able to answer your question because at the moment my sideboard is up in the air.

You can't always have the answer to every type of card. Yes, you will sometimes lose to a Mystic Enforcer or an opposing Tombstalker, but those situations are less likely than the other situations where STP will be just worse than Snuff Out because it does cost mana and it does gain your opponent life, and requires you to have access to white mana.

SuckerPunch

08-23-2008, 04:09 PM

Well, you can cut a Vindicate from the list down to 3 to go up to 3 Snuff Out if you see lots of aggro.

But I wouldn't cut the 2 StP. Actually I would, but only to play 2 Reanimate in metas filled with board control decks that are light on threats and heavy on non StP removal.

Snuff Out doesn't deal with lots combo creatures too. And I think the lifegain of StP is comparable the 4 points of life loss from Snuff Out. There's plenty of times where you can't afford to lose 4 points of life, esp if you already played another Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, fetchlands etc.

There isn't any debate that StP is hands down the best and most efficent removal ever printed by far, so why not run 2 copies if the builds supports it?

Ramptoniin

08-23-2008, 04:23 PM

rsaunder

08-23-2008, 07:56 PM

Is it mass consensus that Snuff out has to be in this deck? I mean free removal is great, but a full on removal with STP is great

What about

3 Vindicate
3 STP
2 Reanimate?

Although Snuff out/Reanimate is a nice "combo"It's gotta be. Eva is a tempo deck at heart and Snuff has tempo written all over it. Also, snuff out reanimate=at least 6 life lost, which is a lot.

EDIT: Unearth? It reanimates everything but tombstalker, which might kill you anyways. Plus it cycles.

Keeping the manabase to 2 colors, in my opinion is worth losing vindicate and swords, as there are options that are debatably as good in both black and green.

FoolofaTook

08-23-2008, 08:01 PM

I actually retuned my list a bit after some heavy testing.

I haven't posted it here so here you go...

If you get a chance to, try out the above list. I'm really liking the 2/2 split between Snuff Out and StP. Snuff Out is great for being free and dealing with pro white guys like Akroma, A of Fury. StP is great for dealing with black creatures, pro black creatures, recurring creatures, all for a very cheap cost.

The maindeck is 100% complete and I'm 100% happy with it. Though, there is nothing wrong with running 3 Vindicate either. I have thought a lot about going -1 Vindicate +1 Snuff Out and possibly bringing the reanimates back in, in place of StP. But right now, I'm heavily focusing on the sideboard.

I wouldn't be able to answer your question because at the moment my sideboard is up in the air.

Just out of curiousity, what's the plan against Blood Moon effects? The deck looks like it'd be very vulnerable if a moon hit the table.

SuckerPunch

08-23-2008, 08:48 PM

My build is NOT actually not much more vulnerable to Moon effects than Eva Green. Under a Moon, my build loses access to 8 spells where as Eva Green gets cut off from 7 spells. So in terms of spells, my build is 1/39th worse than Eva Green in that scenario. (PS: I went back to playing Reanimate over StP in my current build). For both my build and Eva Green, Moon hurts a bit, but it's not gamebreaking.

Unearth? It reanimates everything but tombstalker, which might kill you anyways.

No, just No. It's been mentioned before, it's been tested by others, and by me as well.

Reanimate is straight up, hands down unquestionably superior. There is close to one hundred percent consensus that Reanimate is better among the people that tried both cards.

Unearth doesn't reanimate cards from your opponents yard.

Reanimating my opponent's creatures/goyfs has won me many games.

Reanimate combos with Snuff Out, Thoughtseize AND Vindicate. Unearth doesn't combo with any one of those cards.

FoolofaTook

08-23-2008, 08:57 PM

My build is NOT actually not much more vulnerable to Moon effects than Eva Green. Under a Moon, my build loses access to 8 spells where as Eva Green gets cut off from 7 spells. So in terms of spells, my build is 1/39th worse than Eva Green in that scenario. (PS: I went back to playing Reanimate over StP in my current build). For both my build and Eva Green, Moon hurts a bit, but it's not gamebreaking.

Is that really right? I see Dragon Stompy going turn 1 moon and both Eva Green and that deck rolling over and dying unless they happen to have a swamp in hand or fetched one if playing first. That's a fairly substantial risk given there are generally 7 moon effects and likely the werewithal to cast them turn 1 in DS. I might be off on this but I just see extremely low recovery from the turn 1 moon if it happens.

SuckerPunch

08-23-2008, 09:07 PM

Yes, first turn Moon would infact rip any build of Eva Green and 90% of the other viable decks in this format to shreds. That's beause first turn Moon is broken.

The point I was making was that Eva Green is pretty much just as vulnerable to first turn Moon as my version is and really not crippled by a fourth turn or later moon, same as Eva Green.

FoolofaTook

08-23-2008, 09:43 PM

When you're playing Eva Green do you normally fetch a Swamp first when you don't know what the opponent is playing? I know that blue splash decks tend to fetch an Island if they can but I haven't faced off against a lot of black splash decks so I'm not sure how that plays out in best practice.

SuckerPunch

08-24-2008, 01:26 AM

Really depends on the environment. I often fetch a swamp first with my first fetchland unless I'm just playing a casual game.

If you are playing in an area where dragon stompy sees play, and you are playing at a competitive tourney or something, I highly recommend it.

At worst, you avoid other deck's wastelands.

If you have either more than one fetchland or a fetchland and a nonbasic in your hand already, why wouldn't you grab a swamp with your first land?

Ramptoniin

08-24-2008, 07:54 PM

Split first against Landstill today at a small local tourney. Went against a kinda funny madness deck, and a weird r/w weenie/creature destruction deck. It always amazes me how weird Janky decks at times can really do a number on solid stuff.

A little white "protection from creatures" dude was irritating me for a few turns until I drew a Vindicate.

Also Im not so sure about Reanimate in this deck, it is a lot of fun to use, but I think between the Snuffs, Fetches, and Thoughtseizes (and factor in if you do absurd stuff like first turn dark rit, sinkhole or hymn and burn for 1) it ends up being too much life loss

I found myself thinking a couple times "if i hadnt snuffed out X, I could reanimate this..."

I think Running swords over Reanimate is better.

I almost think cutting the snuff outs to run 4 STP's would be better due to random stalkers floating around, but it is such a pretty card...i got asked literally 4-5 times "howd you do that, you dont have untapped lands"

that is a nice feeling.

Ill post my list in a few, with SB

Edit :

Landstill crushed me when I faced it, but he was nice enough to split first with me in finals still, I still think had I made proper plays I could have taken him out in Finals possibly. Was a tuff matchup though.

What do you side for Landstill sucker....also I need to read this whole thread.

P.S. Cool meeting Peter Rotten for a hot minute

SuckerPunch

08-25-2008, 12:14 AM

Congrats on your split. Can't wait to see the list.

Going back to deck development.

I'm seriously considering replacing Nantuko Shade (or possibly Hypnotic Specter) with Phyrexian Negator.

Shade is solid when you have lots of spare mana. But I usually find myself wanting to use my mana to play out the cards in my hand.

But if you like Shade, Hippe could be replaced with Negator instead.

As for why I like Negator.

Burn, Gobins and red splashes to play burn have really fallen out of flavor because of Tarmogoyf.

Plus my build at the moment runs...

4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate
3 snuff out
2 swords to plowshares

to deal with possible blockers.

So I just really like having the idea of playing a deck with 12 creatures that can end the game in four turns.

Red Death got a lot of tourneys wins largely on the back of 4 Negator. And this was at a time when practically every deck splashed red to play burn and deal with creatures. A time when goblins and it's cycler were everywhere.

If Red Death could do so well in such a meta off the back of Negator, why can't this deck play it too.

jazzykat

08-25-2008, 11:17 AM

Ok, this past Friday night I picked up an abused set of Sinkholes 2 Unlimited, 2 Beta for $65! At heart I am a little kid, and love to run people over with fatties.

I have been testing this deck vigorously all weekend in multiple configurations and this is what I have found.

1. The correct number of snuff outs is 3, (especially if playing with 2 reanimate and another piece of removal) because this deck can not afford to have a dead draw. Even late game ritual, and land can pump shade. There is one exception if discard is sitting in your hand unused then you are probably winning.

2. The 2 color version made it a breeze to play out every spell. The 3 color does put a little tax on your mana base and I occaisionally found a stranded goyf or vindicate in my hand.

3. Except vs. mono-black decks snuff out is one of the best cards in the deck. When used to take out a Tarmogoyf or bigger(terravore...anyone reanimate one vs. aggro loam...?) you are often trading -4 life to you, for better board position and X damage to them which is normally more than 4. If you run reanimates, I would argue that is is superior in this deck to swords except when facing black creatures....then it is crap.

4. It is still a toss up but maybe we should consider jitte maindeck as piece of creature control and life gain. However, I don't like the 4 mana initial investment as well as hoping that the creature gets to deal damage. I'm not sold yet.

5. I believe that reanimate will win you more games then sit dead in your hand.

6. While I know almost every deck packs at least 4 creature spot removal spells most don't actually pack much more. That said I think that a first turn hippie is a lot stronger than I gave it credit for. If it knocks a card out and deals 2 damage (i.e. attacks once in most situations) then gets killed you have dealt 2 and maintained card parity. 2 attacks and it starts to go down hill quickly for the opponent.

7. Tombstalker is awesome sauce but keeping to the idea of never having a dead card I am thinking of going down to 3.

8. I have had very mixed results with shade. I like that he is a 2 drop and can deal phenomenal amounts of damage but he requires baby sitting. Maybe we go back to big Negs?

9. I dig the white splash but quite honestly while vindicate is hawt why not use a red splash and burn someone? Vindicate vs. Lightning bolt? Yeah, I know...we don't want to lose to Moat or humility but this is about killing someone really fast right? Consider 3 snuff out and 4 bolts?

Ramptoniin

08-25-2008, 04:52 PM

If youre paired against B2B, bolt isnt gunna do crap, and an early game Bolt is kind of pointless as opposed to Vindicate 3rd turn

This decks 1st and second turns should be locked down.

1st turn Options

Thought Seize
or
Rit, hippie
or
Rit Hymn then Thoguhtzeize
or
Rit Hymn - burn for 1
or
Rit Sink - burn for 1
or
Rit Shade - pump him for 1

There would be no reason to EVER play a First turn bolt in this deck

2nd turn...look at the possibilities....youre usually still denying your opponent with Hymn, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, maybe plopping a goyf or shade, or if you had a good first turn drop, a Tombstalker

3rd Turn, MAYBE a bolt would come into play but youre most likely going to Wasteland at this point and throw a shade, goyf, or another sinkhole or hymn, or Drop a Hypnotic specter....or a Vindicate...after a 2nd turn sinkhole, and if you played, this sometimes is a turn 3 "win"

4th turn, youre going to be throwing down stalker almost 100% by this turn if he is in your hand. You should have atleast 4 cards in grave and your mana , and if youw asted you have the waste to discard to stalker

5th turn....this is when I finally see a Bolt being played....it would be a dead card in the meantime and effect your tempo

Whereas Vindicate is a nice Creature Kill, like running 8 sinkholes, and a Disenchant all in 1.

Bolt would not run properly in this deck I dont feel

The card I keep flirting with in this deck is Main Deck Cursed scroll and/or Gerrards Wisdom....

Posting my List from yesterday in like 10 mins, sorry for the delay

EDIT:

I mean hell, yesterday I first turn Fetched for Swamp, Thoughtseized.

2nd Turn, Fetched for Scrubland, Dark Ritual, Vindicate to land, Thought Seize again.

3rd Turn top decked Tombstalker

4th turned top decked a sinkhole

that was mostly game, ended up drawing a couple more land, he killed my stalker with some removal, then I drew a Goyf, and that was game.

2nd turn Vindicate stalled him long enough for my win

Ramptoniin

08-25-2008, 05:05 PM

Here is my List from Yesterday

I played around a little with the land, due to fearing Stifle, and the life loss with Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, Fetch Lands, and Reanimate. So I went down to 6 Fetch Lands...It seemed to work nicely actually. Im not certain on it still though

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 snuff out
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
3 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
4 bayou
3 scrubland
3 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

SB

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 STP

Im considering taking the Extirpates out for Chokes....but I dont know...seems risky.

I want to take out a Snuff out or Reanimate for another Vindicate, but it seems too iffy.

If you can get Land or hand advantage on most decks theyre DESTROYED. Nothing nicer than first turn Ritual Hymn, snagging 2 Lands, and 3rd turn Sinkhole....most people are screwed by this

jazzykat

08-25-2008, 05:11 PM

Good points above.

Conditionally bolt takes out a first turn mana producer. Otherwise I think you are right about playing bolt later unless you wanted to clear the way for a dork, and it also adds an interesting dynamic on the goyf on goyf action when you don't have Snuff Out available. Obviously Vindicate alleviates the issue altogether.

I have only seen B2B MD in MUC. Generally speaking since we are using our mana every turn we would potentially be screwed anyway, but Vindicate does provide an out. Post board we get REB which is a cool way to deal with that (also BEBable but we do have black disruption... so they probably won't bring it in).

The biggest issue with Bolt is it seems like it doesn't "do enough" although the red splash for the sb seems really nasty.

SuckerPunch

08-25-2008, 05:19 PM

Great posts and input guys. Yeah, I agree that 3 Snuff Out and either 2 StP/Reanimate & 3-4 Vindicate is the ideal removal package. And I'm glad you're starting to see Vindicate's awesomeness too and the utility in Reanimate. Playing burn doesn't make sense. That slot has to be occupied by a card that can take out annoying Enchantments/Artifacts, otherwise, you'll lose many games to Ghostly Prisons and what not.

Like I posted yesterday, I tried out 4 Phyrexian Negator in place of 4 Nantuko Shade this afternoon.

This too seems to be a step in the right direction for this deck. So far, no problems with me losing games because of Negator. But the card has won me it's fair share of games, far more than Nantuko Shade.

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf

The density, quality, efficency and speed of the threat base is just absolutely insane now. It honestly feels like I'm cheating and playing combo.

If your playgroup is burn ridden. Another (worse) option is Ashenmoor Gouger. You can't cast it if you play a Wasteland but can cast it thru a Blood Moon and he's not quite as threatening as Negator, but he's fairly strong regardless.

Ramptoniin

08-25-2008, 05:32 PM

Whatd you remove for a 4th Neg? a 4th Hippy?

Im scared to run Stalker, my Meta has a lot of burn and one guy was playing that "Deal 3 damage to any target, gain 3 life"

seems terrifying to play Negator in these situations....Neg makes a Red matchup much more impossible, and what happens if you get a matchup of Goyf/sligh, or Threshold man.

Threshold will annihilate this deck with Negs....and dont get me started on Goyf/Sligh

If they first turn Grim lavamancer, 2nd turn they play goyf

You hypotheticaly Snuff out The Mancer or the goyf....

3rd turn they Fireblast then bolt your Neg if you cast him turn 3

Youre screwed.

If youre going to play Negator, it makes more sense to just play Juzam for 1 more....yea, no turn 1, but even if they turn 1 play a little ebater, and block your negator, thats 3 mana wasted and youre losing negator, or if it is something like a kird ape, youre losing Gator and your land

SuckerPunch

08-25-2008, 05:48 PM

Yep, I cut the 4th Hippe for the 4th Negator, but most people are still playing 4 Shades so they wouldn't need to.

Yeah, in your meta, with all those burn decks, I definately wouldn't play Negator (though Red Death did do very well in a meta filled with more creatures, red splashes and lots of burn).

But definately don't play Juzam Djinn instead. You're probably better off playing the 3 Shades, or if not, playing 4 Ashenmoor Gouger instead.

Ramptoniin

08-25-2008, 06:20 PM

hmm...gouger is an interesting idea....i was thinking of that a couple weeks ago. Maybe ill test it a bit. you dont have to worry about pumping to save shade at times either.

nitewolf9

08-25-2008, 06:23 PM

You know what, if you own a set of juzams go ahead and play them. I think you are required to.

jazzykat

08-25-2008, 07:22 PM

Ah, yeah...the big negs is coming back. My thinking is that if you play big negs then you want the stp to make sure the way is clear, or to nuke yours if a fireblast is coming its way.

Against just about anything that doesn't have lightning bolt I think a first turn negator is scary stuff.

AnwarA101

08-25-2008, 11:31 PM

Phyrexian Negator is not good in this format. If you don't have removal for your opponent's Tarmogoyf then your Negator does nothing. He can't block and he may not even be able to race. Making one of your threats dependent on having creature removal is a very bad idea especially when you have no way to find it.

ebbitten

08-25-2008, 11:39 PM

plague sliver>juzam in any meta with any traces of slivers + pricetag

SuckerPunch

08-26-2008, 12:48 AM

Juzam Djinn's art and awesomeness factor >>>> Plague Sliver. If you have a playset of Juzam Djinn, you're pretty much obligated to play them in every deck that can support the card, including this one.

Phyrexian Negator is not good in this format. If you don't have removal for your opponent's Tarmogoyf then your Negator does nothing. He can't block and he may not even be able to race. Making one of your threats dependent on having creature removal is a very bad idea especially when you have no way to find it.

My build runs 8 MD creature removal and 4 Thoughtseize, so it can deal with opposing Goyf. The key point is, nowadays, aside from Goyf, most decks aren't playing many other threats or burn. Atleast not like during the heyday of Goblins and UGr Thresh. I'm still surprised Red Death fared so well in such a meta. Do you really think that the current meta is less friendly to Negator than back during Goblins and UGr Thresh? Esp if your build plays 12 ways to take care of opposing Goyfs.

Even if you can't kill your opposing Goyf, if they attack with Goyf, you take it and then attack them with Negator till you find your removal or another threat to close the deal. If they hold back the Goyf to block, it makes the Negator worthwhile regardless.

Slayer001

08-26-2008, 06:19 AM

if you have the djinn play it offcoarse, but there are poor students like me who can't afford them :P

I'm still in the B/g version, but maybe I'll try some vindicates some day, but I'm no fan of it. need to get my scrublands first then ;)

the list I currently play is

5x Swamp
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hippie
4x Tombstalker

3x jitte
4x Snuff Out
4x Hymn
4x thoughtseize
4x sinkhole

SB

4x Engineered Plague
4x Choke
3x Seal/Grip
4x Leyline of the Void

AnwarA101

08-26-2008, 07:05 AM

My build runs 8 MD creature removal and 4 Thoughtseize, so it can deal with opposing Goyf. The key point is, nowadays, aside from Goyf, most decks aren't playing many other threats or burn. Atleast not like during the heyday of Goblins and UGr Thresh. I'm still surprised Red Death fared so well in such a meta. Do you really think that the current meta is less friendly to Negator than back during Goblins and UGr Thresh? Esp if your build plays 12 ways to take care of opposing Goyfs.

Even if you can't kill your opposing Goyf, if they attack with Goyf, you take it and then attack them with Negator till you find your removal or another threat to close the deal. If they hold back the Goyf to block, it makes the Negator worthwhile regardless.

Red Death fared well because most creatures that had a high power and toughness were relatively expensive or slower to come online when compared to Phyrexian Negator. Back then Survival had to play creatures like Ravenous Baloth or Flametongue Kavu and Threshold played things like Werebear and Mongoose. Survival's creatures were relatively slow never really coming online till about turn 3 or 4. Werebear and Mongoose were only a threat once they got Threshold which was again on turn 3 or 4. This made an early Negator a really threat which was really hard to stop. Goblins had small creatures to block it (yes Fanatic was a problem) and that is what made Negator good. He was also good against combo and control.

That isn't true anymore. Everyone plays Tarmogoyf including control decks and you don't want to rely on drawing removal. I wouldn't play 8 creature removal spells in Eva Green because that leads to many dead draws against non-creature decks and it can stall your own attack by just drawing removal when you need something more versatile. I played 7 creature removal spells in my original mono-black Suicide list in 2005 and it never worked as well as Red Death or Eva Green.

SuckerPunch

08-26-2008, 11:12 PM

I wouldn't play 8 creature removal spells in Eva Green because that leads to many dead draws against non-creature decks and it can stall your own attack by just drawing removal when you need something more versatile.

Please take a look at the list you are commenting on. :smile: 3-4 of those creature removal spells are Vindicate, and 4 more are Thoughtseizes. Both are cards that are as versatile as they get and are pretty much never dead.

In such a build, I could see an argument that the Negator count should be 3 rather than 4, but I really can't see a strong argument against it. You mentioned that cards like Flametoungue Kavu and Goblin decks (with that cycling direct damage goblin) saw a lot more play in the heyday of Red Death. Neither were cardsa that Negator liked, and UGr Thresh saw a lot of play too. Actually, tons of decks splashed red for burn to offer up a versatile answer to turn one Goblin Lackey.

I remember that old meta, and I remember it being a lot more hostile to Negator than the current one.

AnwarA101

08-26-2008, 11:18 PM

Please take a look at the list you are commenting on. :smile: 3-4 of those creature removal spells are Vindicate, and 4 more are Thoughtseizes. Both are cards that are as versatile as they get and are pretty much never dead.

I thought you were considering STP and Snuff Out? If not, then that was my mistake.

SuckerPunch

08-26-2008, 11:20 PM

Sorry, my posts were confusing since I brought up that I play StP a lot.

I play 3 Snuff Out, 2 StP, 3-4 Vindicate, 4 Thoughtseize. Those are my 12 answers to Goyfs.

Ramptoniin

08-27-2008, 12:11 AM

Played this tonight, got fucking HOUSED by Goyf/Sligh 1st round

Round 2

Beat Goblin 2-0

Round 3

Played against Threshhold, Spanked the hell out of it game 1, Game 2 I was stupid and kept one land....didn't draw another one all game...yea sweet

Game 3, kept one land again, a Bloodstained, he stifled, no lands in 3 turns. That was it.....I know I coulda won this matchup had I just Mulliganed

Round 4

I slapped the hell out of a Survival deck....hardcore...

so 2-2, coulda been 3-1....*sigh*

Snuff out, while being incredible is just not viable if you face red. And with Threshold running Chain Lightnings or Bolts, it is just scary.

I think switching the deck if you add white to almost a Deadguy Ale/Eva Green style would be more reasonable. It is too dangerous otherwise. STP over Snuffout is my verdict

You can almost always snag that Scrubland you need within a turn, so you take a beat from a threat 1-2 times for 3-6 damage possibly and STP it....it is RFG. Much better I think. I just think it is too iffy playing Snuff out after tonight....although it did save me a few times..

Mr personal favorite play of the night, Reanimating my opponents Eternal witness to grab my tombstalker back, and casting him. :-)

jazzykat

08-27-2008, 02:21 AM

Mr personal favorite play of the night, Reanimating my opponents Eternal witness to grab my tombstalker back, and casting him. :-)

I was high enough in life where I:

reanimate --> Opponents witness
Witness CitP Ablility --> reanimate
reanimate --> my tombstalker

Beatings!

What were you using snuff out vs. burn on? I mean mog fanatic?
Think of it this way, vs. Red Thresh you can only hit goyf and you don't always have white mana so you can either let him beat on you and eventually put them up 4 or more life or take the 4 upfront and get rid of him now.
I agree vs. goyf sligh, it is dicey but you just have to go faster than them!

SuckerPunch

08-27-2008, 02:01 PM

Played this tonight....

Nice mini report. Thanks for posting it. And I love the list as well.

I've been running StP and it has really been awesome. if you fear Goyf Sligh, perhaps you can try cutting either 2 Reanimate or 2 Thoughtseize and the 3rd Snuff Out to make room for 3 StP.

Don't get me wrong, Both Reanimate and Thoughtseize are absolutely fantastic cards, but there just doesn't seem to be room for both of them and the accompanying lifeloss along with StP.

Thoughtseize, Nantuko Shade and on occasion Hippe, often strikes me as the weakest cards in the deck. :eek: They're great cards, but the quality of the cards available to this deck are so high. On the otherhand, Thoughtseize is one of the few cards you have to disrupt combo decks so I don't know.

Have you given any thought to running Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Nantuko Shade. The only popular threat out there that outclasses him is Goyf and you already have plenty of ways to deal with Goyf. Swinging for 4 every turn with 0 additional mana investment, all while being out of bolt range is pretty useful.

I am also wondering if Goyf Sligh is indeed an unfavorable matchup per se, or if it was a fluke.

The only threat they play that won't be gobbled up by your Goyfs/Tombstalkers/Shades are their own Goyfs.

Between 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Snuff Out, (maybe 2 StP) and 3 Vindicate, you can make sure they never stick around past one turn.

As for the burn, Hymn helps with that. But yeah, it pretty much comes down to a race.

If you can lay down your Goyf or Tombstalker and neutralize all their threats and have an answer to their Goyf, burn is their only out.

Gives you a shot to lay down a Tombstalker and try to race them.

They will still win more often than not. But I think you should have a reasonable shot.

kikkofrio

08-27-2008, 03:30 PM

From original list i want to try:

-1 snuff out
-1 shade
-1 swamp
+1 scrubland
+ 2 reanimate

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

nitewolf9

08-27-2008, 03:48 PM

From original list i want to try:

-1 snuff out
-1 shade
-1 swamp
+1 scrubland
+ 2 reanimate

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

I don't know if that is such a good idea. Against goblins, you don't need the help and jitte is strictly better anyway. Plus, they can cut you off of white with a single wasteland if you play only one scrubland (goblins and some sligh builds both play wasteland). It doesn't help you against moon effects because the blood moon/magus is still on the table preventing you from playing magic (even with Eva Green, no white splash, this is a problem from time to time). I don't think burn and boros are very good, and not many people play those decks anyway. Granted a traditional weakness of suicide black has been random zoo decks floating around.

If you insist on boarding for those decks why not just play kaervek's spite and not worry about raping your manabase. Most times you will lose when they are on very low life and just happen to get that extra turn they need to burn you out or swing in for the win. Spite speeds up your clock by about a turn or so, and might actually be relevant in other matchups.

electrolyze

08-27-2008, 03:50 PM

to the people that are splashing white in the deck, wich mu makes this better?

i mean, splashing white reduces your tempo, gives you an unstable manabase and what mu's does it makes better?

the white splash makes your only more vulnerable to burn(because of price of progress, and that you need too fetch more times than needed to get the right mana) it weakens your dragonstompy mu because of moon. it weakens your tempothresh mu because all of the wasteland and stifles, and probably many other mu's like muc(back to basics), suiblack and pikula like decks because youre more vulnerable to land desctruction.

but which mu makes the splash better then? even goblins plays land disruption so even that mu wont be better.

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

please complain to me why the white splash makes the mu's for this deck so much better.

Nihil Credo

08-27-2008, 03:51 PM

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

Warmth > Sanctimony

nitewolf9

08-27-2008, 05:28 PM

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

Reanimate is better than unearth because it hits your opponent's threats. Also, if they stp your dudes you are out of luck. Also, tombstalker has delve.

All that being said, I don't think reanimate is very good. I think I would rather just play more threats. Unless you are already playing 16 and wanted to play 17 or 18, and couldn't find another creature to fit. Then reanimate might be ok.

About the white splash, I really don't like it at all. I think it weakens the deck without providing enough in return. But some people are all about it so I think it's kind of a wash to get into a pissing contest. I do however feel that the deck is different enough to post another thread...especially if we can have a seperate thread for the various flavors of threshold, and Red Death/Eva Green/Sui Black are all in their own respective threads.

Suckerpunch, since you seem to be the deck's most adament endorser, that would probably be a good thing to do to spark discussion instead of causing a rift in this thread. There are obviously two different schools of thought and continuing here is fruitless for both parties.

SuckerPunch

08-27-2008, 06:49 PM

but which mu makes the splash better then? even goblins plays land disruption so even that mu wont be better.

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

please complain to me why the white splash makes the mu's for this deck so much better.

Please just read the thread.

Neither Reanimate, nor the white splash was my idea. Clark Kant, advocated it and after I read about it (i think the thread was called Suicide Pox or something) and realized that I had the cards lying around. I PMed him and he PMed me his current list which is what I built and posted. Only after I tried the list for myself, did I see the splash to be worthwhile.

So I'm not going to get into a huge debate over something that's not mine.

Both the question of Reanimate and the white splash have been covered and explained on several occasions. And just about every one that tried the white splash admits that vindicate is a house, saves your ass all the time and worth the splash. The only matchup where I prefer the green splash is versus landstill. Everywhere else, Vindicate is so much more versatile than Seal, rounds out you LD package and gets you out of tons of situations that seal doesn't help you in to make it worthwhile.

Reading back to the old posts, this was a point made elsewhere. But you know as well as I do that...

There has never ever been a BW deck (including deadguy) that ever opted to run Seal of Cleansing (Seal of Primodrium's clone) in place of Vindicate. Vindicate made into every BW deck and Seal of Cleansing pretty much never made the maindeck.

Here is a great quote on the subject from when it was discussed in another thread (I think the Suicide Pox thread)...

Well, I've been thinking about what I said about Vindicate, and I have to take it back. Vindicate is better than Seal of Cleansing, and if it cost :1::b::g:, it would replace Seal of Primordium in Eva Green (I actually discussed this with Anwar). The greater mana cost is almost certainly overshadowed by the versatility, and the ability to maintain pressure on an opponent's scarce resource.

I'll echo Hummingbird's suggestion of splashing both colors, and just replacing Eva Green's Seals with Vindicates. The question we're left with is whether or not Vindicate is worth the jump to three colors.

You can argue the merits of whether splashing a third color is worth it or not, from what I've seen, it doesn't effect the deck much at all, but you can argue that. But to suggest that SoP is generally superior to Vindicate for any reason other than that SoP is green, is intellectually dishonest.

But some people are all about it so I think it's kind of a wash to get into a pissing contest.

Exactly, there's no need to get into a pissing contest over the white splash.

If you don't think it looks good, don't bother with it.

Ultimately, budget factors into magic too. The only reason I went ahead and tried the white splash was because I already had the neccesary cards lying around from Deadguy.

I suspect that a lot of people here don't have scrublands and vindicates and StPs lying around. If that's the case, then don't spend another $150 to get the cards and play the splash.

Ultimately Eva Green and Eva White Green are functionally so similar that its not going to be worth a $150 worth of investment to make the switch.

As for another thread, the two lists are maybe 3-5 cards off. Both builds function nearly the same.

This isn't like UGr Thresh vs UGw Thresh where there are massive strategic differences.

This is a lot more akin to Uw Dreadstill vs. Ug Dreadstill, both of which are happily discussed in the same thread because they're only a few cards apart and strategically very similar.

So I don't think another thread is justified.

SuckerPunch

08-28-2008, 12:52 AM

As you know, I've been looking for a replacement for Nantuko Shade as a 3 of.

So far, I've considered Phyrexian Negator and Ashenmoor Gouger.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

The card that I am seriously considering is...

Doran, The Siege Tower.

A 5/5 for 3 mana without a drawback is a steller deal. In addition, he gives your goyf +1/+0 as well.

But running him, you offer up 11 creatures that are 4 turn clocks that must be killed off immediately.

And that's not counting the 4 Hypnotic Specter that also must be killed immediatley or will gain you a massive advantage rather quickly.

That's just far too high a threat density for any legacy deck I can think of to be able to deal with. Just don't over extend and even mass removal can't deal with this.

Of course, there are disadvantages to Doran as well.

He's harder to cast than Ashenmoor Gouger due to the color requirements.

In fact, by playing him, suddenly, it may be worthwhile for us to cut Dark Ritual for Birds of Paradise to support the colored costs while accelerating the deck turn after turn, and serving as a 1/1 flying beater to boot. And in doing so, the BB cost in Hippe becomes questionable and it maybe replaced by the much cheaper Skyshoud Elite that works as 1cc 3/3 under doran and a 2/3 without.

But while I wanted to bring up this idea, I don't think going that route is fruitful. Doing so would mean we would be investing in green heavily and it would have to be just as prominently featured as Black. This also makes cards with BB in their casting cost suddenly up for debate.

So really, I'm not sure if this is a fruitful direction to pursue.

It would be a different deck entirely, and I would create another thread for it, but ONLY if enough of you think it is a fruitful pursuit.

More likely than not, the deck is best off just very lightly splashing one or two colors.

He is in color, but I fear his mana cost may still be a problem.

jazzykat

08-28-2008, 01:17 AM

Doran....he's hot for sure. I think you really hit the salient points with regards to his pros and cons although I don't think that removing hippie makes sense if you are going to add birds to help the mana situation.

I am loathe to not have my first turn brokenness with ritual. I think you can take it the way of the doran with a slightly slower deck, but I think the birds will make it more consistent but then heavily reliant on green.

When Eva was only 2 colors it was a cinch to cast things. At 3 I am sometimes have a Vindicate sitting in my hand just waiting for a Scrubland.

Sea R Hill

08-28-2008, 06:12 AM

Has anyone considered running Putrefy over Vindicate?

Putrefy has some advantages over Vindicate:
-It does pretty much the same job,
-You don't have to splash withe and weaken your manabase.

The main disadvantage I can see is the lack of versatility of Putrefy because sometimes you want to disrupt the opponent's manabase with Vindicate (I consider the capacity of destroying enchantments not relevant).

SuckerPunch

08-28-2008, 09:35 AM

It's an interesting suggestion. I am leaning towards no because there are enchantments that I like blowing up (Ghostly Prison etc) and as you said, game winning plays like blowing up your opponent's only remaining land aren't possible with Putrefy.

But it's a good thought nonetheless. Problems artifacts far outnumber problem enchantments, and being able to blow up creatures in a pinch is fantastic utility and among the biggest advantage that Vindicate has over Seal.

As for Doran, I dropped the idea.

I came to realize that the moment I try to support Doran, the manabase becomes unwieldy. I would have to made it more green dependent and play Birds of Paradise over Dark Ritual.

Essentially my deck would morph into something similar to Tombstone. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=266718#post266718

I think that strategically, Eva Green is superior to Tombstone, though I may be biased. And it seems like Doran simply doesn't offer enough of an advantage over it's alternatives Ashenmoor Gouger and Phyrexian Negator to make the change worthwhile. I prefer the explosiveness that this deck offers to going with a slow controllish route.

Sea R Hill

08-28-2008, 09:57 AM

I think we just have to play 3 Putrefy instead of the 3 Seals.
I dislike Seal because I often have him in hand or on the table being useless, and I'm sure Putrefy is rarely a dead card.
But I really don't like splashing white because I already have mana problems with 2 colors. A tempo deck can't afford waiting for a land, it has to win right away once it has played its disruption cards.

SuckerPunch

08-28-2008, 10:10 AM

Putrefy probably IS superior to Seal. I was comparing it to Vindicate.

I do think you're missing that both green and white are very light splashes though.

You have exactly the same number of ways to get green in my list as you do in traditional Eva Green lists. Same with white. Just grab whichever color that you have a card of. With 4 green and 3/5 white cards in the whole deck, you typically won't have both in your opening hand. And even when you do, you can easily fetch whichever card seems more important, and then grab the other one a turn or two later when you usually topdeck another fetchland or something. With 8 fetches and 6 duals, you almost always will see either a fetch and a dual, or two fetches in your first 8-9 cards.

The reason I dislike doran, is that it turns these very light splashes of 3-5 cards into very heavy splashes of 7-9 cards of both. That requires swapping up the manabase. Why do that when Negator and Ashenmoor Gouger do nearly the same thing but on color. But as is, I know for a fact that the deck supports two very light splashes just fine.

jazzykat

08-28-2008, 10:40 PM

As much as I love Vindicate and as much as it does win games, I am frustrated as heck by the white part of the cc. Maybe MWS is crazy whenever I have sided in Leyline of the Void I have ALWAYS had it in my opening hand, but I also don't always get to pull both colors. This deck really does kill most decks, I am astounded to be able to say that. However, you will drop a game here and there to randomly not getting what you need.

I think that reanimate and Tombstalker are the best cards in the deck (I know, not Tarmogoyf....gasp!). Everyone is ready with a bunch of ways to kill Mr. TGoyf, however, not everyone can deal with a 5/5 flyer with a CMC of 8. The only widely played single card that smokes him is StP. Almost every other deck needs 2 cards to kill him or stop him. I can't tell you how many times I have won with reanimate. Oh, eternal witness in opponents yard, I'll take that get back reanimate, and grab something else.

This deck is excellent but I am not sure if we should be using white. I want everyone to do an experiment and tell me how many times you die to color screw and how many times it is irrelevant. I have a sneaky suspicion that Vindicate does more than it hurts but I hate having a dead card in my hand.

Ramptoniin

08-28-2008, 11:14 PM

No joke, In a competitive game I have never been holding a Vindicate and not been able to cast due to no white, you have 8 fetches, and 2 scrubs....youre gunna get white no matter what

Also I know it is blasphemy but I think im going to run Edict over Snuff out, it has been killing me too many times. Or figure out some way to split it

Also im considering cutting 1 thought seize, and 1 hypnotic for 2 Duress

SuckerPunch

08-29-2008, 12:54 AM

I'm glad more and more of you guys are coming around to Reanimate and Vindicate. I'm surprised Clark's list went ignored for so long actually.

But while I absolutely think that if you have the cards, you should atleast try out the white splash...

If you don't have the cards or don't want to splash a second color...

Please try out this list.

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 phyrexian negator/ashenmoor gouger/nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 putrefy
3 snuff out
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
3 bayou
5 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

Putrefy is indeed a solid card. It gives you 3 more creature removal spells, while dealing with 80% of the cards that Seal of Primordium was useful against, and also works great with Reanimate which as others who tried out the card agree, is an absolute house.

electrolyze

08-29-2008, 09:22 AM

hey suckerpunch, i maybe dont like the white splash, think its just me because i think its too disruptable. but i like the above list you posted. i'm testing it now and i totally wreck aggroloam with the removal and reanimate is tech against loam because they loam everything in their grave. the original eva green build is good against loam too but i think this build makes this mu better.

i still dont say i like it better than the original list but in a loam meta(in belgium they play loam very much, so maybe i'm gonna play this deck when i go there to a tourney or something) i would play this one over the original i think. :cool:

greet, electrolyze

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-29-2008, 11:46 AM

jazzykat

08-29-2008, 12:43 PM

Lotus Petal obviously provides one less mana than Dark Rit, but it does allow you to play Doran/Vindicate if you really want. It also pumps Tarmogoyf more effectively, I think. That being said, I have no idea if that's better than staying B/g or not, but it does solve the Ritual-sucking in the 3c version problem. And it still lets you go turn 1 Hymn/Sinkhole.

Wow...that might be the ticket to me bitching about color screw. I will gladly have more sources of disposable colored mana to have 1 less black!

EDIT: I've tried and I am not super happy with it. Auf wiedersehen Doran!

Henrik

08-30-2008, 08:09 AM

Hey, it's been a while since I read the thread, I'm glad to see the deck is still under discusion.

My input on the subject from the last couple of pages is:

- Splashing a third colour really suck. I've tested it and also played a lot of deadguy/funkbrew. Nitewolfe's original build or monoblack suicide is far better, at least when you want to play the tempo-sui version (no confidant).

- I have never played reanimte, but I like the idea. It's a must try in the next couple of weeks I think, but since I am really happy with the deck I play right now, so I don't know how to fit it.

- Putrey rocks! I love having extra removal when I need it, and also beeing able to blow artifacts. However, the statement that 80% (don't rememer who said that) of what you hit with seal is artifacts is not entirely true. The important stuff that putrefy does not hit includes standstill, seismic assault, counterbalance and blood moon (however, 1st turn blood moon suck even if you play seal, if you start with only fetches on hand). Either way, in my opinion the effect of having extra removal that does not kill you is have shown really good, and we can still hit vial, jitte, stax-artifacts etc.

- Bitterblossom in this deck sounds really stupid.

In conclusion, the deck I play right now is Nitewolfe's original build, but with 3 putrefy instead of seal. Also, I play pernicious deed in the board instead of plague, we don't have a lot of goblins around here (sweden). Instead, there's a LOT of 3hold, dreadstill and death and taxes, in which deed shines. I still love this deck and have a fair amount of succes with it.

Henrik

08-30-2008, 08:15 AM

Oh, I also have to mention that I like the idea of phyrexian negator in the deck. He is such a mean bastard! I have tried that too, but when I did, I got owned by the read 3holds that are everywhere nowadays (especially canadian build) so the direct damage from red is not quite as "gone" from the meta as one would like to think. How has negator worked out for you?

Sea R Hill

08-30-2008, 09:26 AM

I'm happy you guys like my idea of playing Putrefy instead of Seal and keep playing only 2 colors.
Because it's true you (almost) always have acces to the color you need but you often can't have access to both green and white.
Let's say you have to deal with a threat, you fetch for a Scrub and play Vindicate on an opponent's Stalker/Tarmo/Crusher/etc. and then you have to finish your opponent with your own Tarmo but you can't because you didn't fetch for a Bayou. This gives time to your opponent to recover and that's really really bad for you because you're playing the tempo with this deck.

Anyway, here's my decklist:

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 putrefy
3 snuff out

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
4 bayou
6 swamp

What's different?
I added a land because I had to mulligan to often, because of starting hands that have only 1 Swamp/fetch/Bayou and one to multiple Wastelands.
I replaced the 3 Seals with 3 Putrefy and cut 1 Snuff out, because with Putrefy you already have 3 more creature removals (Putrefy>Snuff out BTW).

The only thing I'm not happy with the deck is Nantuko Shade, but I couldn't think of a better creature (and Phyrexian Negator is way too dangerous with all the burn spells and goblins out there).