[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide [Archive] - Page 3

Ramptoniin

08-30-2008, 09:40 PM

Played this in Syracuse today with the Vindicates, I came in 11th(well tied for 9th points wise) with this deck. I somehow lost AGAIN to the SAME Threshold deck, I played choke from SB, and extirpated his tropicals...but his 1st turn mongoose got me for the win.....6 turns and no top deck creature...serious WTF moment...I usually annihilate Threshold.

round 1 went against reanimator, snuff outted his Spectral tiger 2 times, and 2nd game just beat him to creatures fast enough

round 2, Survival....kept destroying his lands, guy gets genesis in graveyard, I reanimate it :-)

round 3, lost to Tombstone(ended up being tournament winner)

round 4....somehow lost to threshold....so so so lame

round 5 I beat Aluren deck....wasnt even funny, I just destroyed it...bad

round 6 Beat survival again...team epics Colin we went to game 3, but Reanimating his creatures didnt make him too happy....a 1 cost goyf cant be beat, or a reanimated Genesis

was disappointing not top 8'ing, but for being out of magic for 5 years and only being back 3 months again, Im doing alright for myself. It makes me realize how truly strong this deck is and how Absurd it is to NOT play white.

Henrik

08-30-2008, 10:21 PM

Splashing a third color most certainly does not suck. I still fare better playing the three color version than the putrefy version.

But that said, yes, I've been liking Putrefy a lot more than Seal myself.

I esp like that it works great with Reanimate which fyi IS so much better than Unearth, it's ridiculuous.

How does the white-splash-version help in respect of making reanimate better? Or, do I misunderstand you, is it putrefy that makes reanimte better? I mean, if you would play, say, instant edict instead, you would have the same amount of creatures in your op's yard, and still be less vunerable to nonbasic-hate. No critizism, just wondering.

Henrik

08-30-2008, 10:30 PM

And, in the adition to the phyrexian negator discussion, how do we optimise this optoin of creature instead of shade (which I feel is the inferior creature in the list)?
More creature discard?
More targeted/untargeted removal?
No creature can end a game against a MUC deck (or similar deck) as well as a negator, although the risks are quite high in the legacy format.

morgan_coke

08-30-2008, 10:54 PM

why wouldn't you run stillmoon cavalier in that slot? it doesn't pump as well as shade, but it does everything else better and is almost impossible to kill.

SuckerPunch

08-31-2008, 01:15 AM

Stillmoon is just too damn slow.

Both Vindicate and Putrefy are equally solid with Reanimate. Vindicate and Putrefy is just better compared to Seal in respects to Reanimate. And Vindicate is better than Putrefy in regards to supplementing Sinkhole/Wasteland and taking out cards like Ghostly Prison.

was disappointing not top 8'ing, but for being out of magic for 5 years and only being back 3 months again, Im doing alright for myself. It makes me realize how truly strong this deck is and how Absurd it is to NOT play white.

Thank you Ramptoniin for another excellent post and report. You continue to do a better job advocating for this deck than anyone I know.

Zork

08-31-2008, 02:28 AM

I know this guy who advocates this deck pretty hard just about everywhere he goes. I think his name has something to do with a time of day and some animal, and there is definately a number in there somewhere...

I've been shuffling up lists of this, and I can't for the life of me figure out what matchups the white splash is supposed to help. Vindicate is slow as LD, and slow as removal, and expensive as both in a deck that likes to tap out playing threats.

SuckerPunch

08-31-2008, 09:42 AM

hebrewhammer

08-31-2008, 10:16 AM

i played the standard version of eva green in syracuse, not really sure what place i came, zach "two bags" tartell knocked me out of the top 8 in the last round. i went 3-2-1. any way my list was:

4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 nantuko shade
3 bayou
6 swamp
4 wast land

spells
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtsieze
4 snuff out
1 plague sliver*
4 sinkhole
4 hypnotic specter
2 smother
4 dark ritual

sb:
3 krosan grip
3 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
3 extirpate
2 faerie macabre

* the plague sliver was in because i was in the car going to cuse and i relized that i had an empty slot in my maindeck and i forgot my bayou so phil stolze was like dude just put it in.....i relized its an awful idea, prolly could have been a swamp or w/e.

Zork

09-01-2008, 10:27 PM

Perhaps instead of just shuffling up some lists, you should actually try playing with them. :tongue:

Sorry, it was too good an opening not to use.

Seriously though, keep track of how many games you win with the white version, vs how many you win with the standard green version. You will be surprised by the result.

Also what list are you "shuffling up." If you're playing a list that differs a decent bit from what I posted, that doesn't prove anything.

Thanks for the playtesting advice, captain. I totally didn't know that I should keep track of win counts, cause I obviously have no idea how to play this game of magical cards.

As for the lists I was shuffling, I used the standard G/B list, and then another list where I cut seals for vindicate, and then a couple threats (2-3 varied creatures) for StP. The entire reason I wanted to test it is because I think Vindicate and StP are strong cards, and I was surprised in my testing how slow vindicate was compared to other cards, and how little StP seemed to matter compared to how often regular Eva Green just trampled over other creature decks.

I was not seeing exactly what MU white splash was supposed to help, which is why I posed the question: What matchups is the white splash supposed to help? So, would you rather answer my legitimate question, or do you prefer to insinuate that I'm a moron in another condescending post?

kikkofrio

09-02-2008, 03:10 AM

I mull too often. Sunday i kept only 2 hands with 7 cards in a 7 turns tourney. This is why I want ALWAYS see BB in my first hand (so I made 3-0-4 :mad: )
Usually, if I mull to 6, I will mull to 5 too...
Pikula runs 23 lands
Deadguy rock runs 23 lands
Red death runs 21 lands: 7 swamp + 3 B/R lands and 3 waste.
Eva runs 21 lands: 6 swamp + 3 bayou and 4 waste. Why?

Is it possible that I'm so unlucky? 17 colored mana lands are enough?

EDIT: Why don't try 3 crime/punishment intead of seal?

Noisome

09-02-2008, 10:17 AM

Have any of you tried running Rite of Consumption as a 2+ of in a slot? Playing with such big creatures, and possibly reanimate, it could be a great finisher against your opponent.

Noisome

nitewolf9

09-02-2008, 10:37 AM

I mull too often. Sunday i kept only 2 hands with 7 cards in a 7 turns tourney. This is why I want ALWAYS see BB in my first hand (so I made 3-0-4 :mad: )

Is it possible that I'm so unlucky? 17 colored mana lands are enough?

EDIT: Why don't try 3 crime/punishment intead of seal?

That sucks, I guess sometimes you get screwed by bad draws. I don't think I have ever had that happen to me though, over an entire tournament like that. I still think 17 colored lands are enough. You probably just got unlucky.

Crime/punishment is too slow. It costs a lot of mana to kill something even at 2cc and really doesn't play well with your strategy.

Edit: I'm speaking from experience with Crime/punishment. It can be randomly amazing, sweeping away tokens or mongeese, answering dreadnought, clearing away artifact mana, etc. But it can also be trash, and you sometimes just don't get above 3 lands until the game is already decided. That being said, anything that goes in that slot is probably going to be situational. Crime/punishment might be ok in a certain metagame, but it seems that running something like pithing needle will help in a lot more situations. Try needle out, people. I've been really happy with it.

johanessen

09-02-2008, 11:56 AM

¿Why not adding Chains of Mephistopheles to sideboard?

AnwarA101

09-02-2008, 12:43 PM

¿Why not adding Chains of Mephistopheles to sideboard?

What matchup would Chains of Mephistopheles help you with?

jazzykat

09-02-2008, 02:12 PM

Another case for reanimate:

Gaston taps Swamp
Gaston plays Dark Ritual from Hand
Gaston plays Buried Alive from Hand
<jazzykat> Ok
<jazzykat> Ok
Gaston is looking its Library...
Gaston puts Akroma, Angel of Wrath to Graveyard from Library
Gaston puts Simic Sky Swallower to Graveyard from Library
Gaston puts Reya Dawnbringer to Graveyard from Library
Gaston shuffles library
Gaston stops looking its Library...
Gaston puts Buried Alive to Graveyard from Play
Gaston puts Dark Ritual to Graveyard from Play
<Gaston> End my turn
<jazzykat> Thinking
<jazzykat> Ok
<Gaston> End my turn
<jazzykat> Ok
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
jazzykat draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
jazzykat plays Scrubland from Hand
jazzykat taps Scrubland
jazzykat plays Reanimate from Hand
<jazzykat> akroma
Gaston puts Akroma, Angel of Wrath into play from Graveyard
jazzykat is now the controller of Akroma, Angel of Wrath
jazzykat's life total is now 12 (-8)
jazzykat puts Reanimate to Graveyard from Play
It is now the Combat Phase, Beginning Of Combat Step
jazzykat taps Akroma, Angel of Wrath
jazzykat untaps Akroma, Angel of Wrath
It is now the Postcombat Main Phase
<System> Player Lost

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 03:34 PM

thats how this deck rules....so good

kikkofrio

09-02-2008, 03:40 PM

So...I think that I will play this.

Eva Green 2.0

4 tarmogoyf
3 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out
3 seal of primordium
2 reanimate

3 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
7 swamp

board:
4 choke
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte

Right?

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 03:44 PM

yea if you dont mind losing to other decks that run tombstalker....Adding Vindicate makes this deck 10 times better

electrolyze

09-02-2008, 03:52 PM

people, please stop saying that the 3c build is better then the 2c, i prefer the 2c build more but i can understand that there are people that like the 3c build more.

but stop saying that the 3c build is better because i think there both strong and i totally depends on your meta wich build is better i think. with much dragonstompy and manarapedeck(like tempothresh, dreadstill, suicide/deadguy variants) the 2c build is better i think. but in a meta with many control and less mana raping decks, the 3c build might be better.

and it depends on your style too, i like 2c decks more than 3c decks, but thats just me.

upcoming saturday i have a big tourney in antwerpen and afcourse i take this deck to the tourney:laugh: i heard there will be much loam, ichorid, thresh and goblin decks, maybe i'm gonna test that putrefy, reanimate build because it rocks against loam and its better against goblins. would this be good or shall i take the original list(because thats the list i already had some good results with and i think its far optimalized.)

Sea R Hill

09-02-2008, 04:17 PM

yea if you dont mind losing to other decks that run tombstalker....Adding Vindicate makes this deck 10 times better

Have you read the last 20 posts? Let me help you with this resume:
P-U-T-R-E-F-Y

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 04:25 PM

sure man....im still hesitant. Doesnt destroy enchantments, or lands. But it is an instant.

Has potential. But I pick Vindicate any day

Sea R Hill

09-02-2008, 04:33 PM

I mean, you were speaking about opposing Tombstalkers... so there's your answer.
As for the enchantments I think there are not that much targets to be worth the splash.

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 04:36 PM

its worth it being extra sinkhole/wastelands to me, and a creature killer if i need. The color splash promotes versatility, and STP if needed

electrolyze

09-02-2008, 04:43 PM

i just finished testing the putrefy build against some decks(thresh, gobs and ichorid) but i dont really like it over the original list, altough i like reanimate as a 2 - off but i dont like putrefy. so maybe i'll jus replace the putrefy with seal again and then put in the 2 reanimate. because its still good against loam and in the upcoming tourney, loam is really populair but against thresh i prefer seal over putrefy and loam is already not a bad mu. thats why i'm probably only going to add reanimate to it.

i will write a little report after the tourney, hope i get t8:laugh:

Sea R Hill

09-02-2008, 06:15 PM

against thresh i prefer seal over putrefy and loam is already not a bad mu. thats why i'm probably only going to add reanimate to it.

How is Seal better than Putrefy vs Thresh?
The only serious target for Seal is Counterbalance and if your opponent already has Counterbalance on the table your Seal has great chances to get countered.
As for Putrefy, all Thresh lists have only 0 to 2 total cards with CC 3 to counter Putrefy with Counterbalance.

Anyway, as strong and fun this deck can be, it's never gonna be a top deck because of a very simple reason: the horrible Goblins MU. Turn 1 Lackey is like game over on turn one.
For the little story I playtested Eva green with a friend and he took a deck I didn't know what it was. I won the die roll and run into what seemed to be a pretty strong hand: Swamp, Waste, Sinkhole, Sinkhole, Stalker, DR, Fetch. I lead with a Swamp and said Go. He drew a card, dropped a mountain and a lackey. On my turn I drew a third Sinkhole... GG

nitewolf9

09-02-2008, 06:23 PM

How is Seal better than Putrefy vs Thresh?
The only serious target for Seal is Counterbalance and if your opponent already has Counterbalance on the table your Seal has great chances to get countered.
As for Putrefy, all Thresh lists have only 0 to 2 total cards with CC 3 to counter Putrefy with Counterbalance.

Your only target for putrefy in that matcup is tarmogoyf, and counterbalance is way more threatening. I've actually been playing pithing needle over seal simply because it hits Top in the threshold matchup and comes down earlier than seal (not to mention it helps IMMENSELY vs survival).

Anyway, as strong and fun this deck can be, it's never gonna be a top deck because of a very simple reason: the horrible Goblins MU. Turn 1 Lackey is like game over on turn one.
For the little story I playtested Eva green with a friend and he took a deck I didn't know what it was. I won the die roll and run into what seemed to be a pretty strong hand: Swamp, Waste, Sinkhole, Sinkhole, Stalker, DR, Fetch. I lead with a Swamp and said Go. He drew a card, dropped a mountain and a lackey. On my turn I drew a third Sinkhole... GG

Ok,
A.) I'll have some of whatever you're smoking.
B.) Goblins is a very underplayed deck right now.
C.) Are you for fucking real? Goblins is a great matchup. Your one example proves nothing. I think I've lost to goblins twice in tournament play since I started playing this deck. It also gets much better post board. Ask Obfuscate Freely about that sometime...

This thread has gone down hill very quickly. Please stop posting eroneous comments that are not based on anything, and fueling the fires of stupidity. Ninety-nine percent of what is being said is pure speculation. Every single time I see this deck do well it is very close to, or exactly, the list that was posted on the first page of the thread. I'm not saying that means it is the end all, be all list, but stop ignoring what works and what doesn't. Backup your suggestions with some reasoning.

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 06:51 PM

Good points Nitewolf, Ive always fought to point out why running white in this deck is so futile. It is just so good, and I've been testing out random anti-red SB cards in white to be able to take down Goyf/Sligh and burn heavy decks. Being out of magic for 5 years, and running Eva-White (AKA Das Vindicator) and placing 11th in the Syracuse Tropical Legacy Tourney showed me how strong this deck really is. The games I lost I can look back and see where I screwed up and could have done some things better, it was mainly on my shoulder why I didnt get further, not that the deck is too weak from Vindicate/white splash

This deck still has a couple small kinks to work out, but all in all I think in the proper Meta it is potentially one of the strongest decks out there.

Whit3 Ghost

09-02-2008, 06:53 PM

I really like Needle in the Seal slots. It shuts down so much in the format right now: Tops, Vials, EE, Survival, Wastes/Ports, Grindstone, Factory, Deed, ect. It can even name fetches and add to the LD if your opponent doesn't fetch in response.

Sea R Hill

09-02-2008, 06:57 PM

So you seem to be playing against poor Goblins players.
I don't know about your meta, but in mine there are a lot of goblins decks.
If you have a secret tech I'm too stupid to figure out by myself to deal with lackey on turn one please share it with me.
You told that people should backup their suggestions with some reasoning. I did but you didn't.

Ramptoniin

09-02-2008, 07:04 PM

I thought thats what a first turn Snuff out was for....and maybe a sinkhole turn 2, vindicate their vial turn 3....good game, some hymns for good measure, and a thought seize or 2 :-)

nitewolf9

09-02-2008, 07:23 PM

So you seem to be playing against poor Goblins players.

Incorrect.

I don't know about your meta, but in mine there are a lot of goblins decks.
If you have a secret tech I'm too stupid to figure out by myself to deal with lackey on turn one please share it with me.
You told that people should backup their suggestions with some reasoning. I did but you didn't.

Obviously a turn one lackey into something terrible like SGC or Wort is going to be a problem. But that doesn't happen very often, and you still have snuff out to deal with lackey alot of the time.
If you still want to speak in examples, I've had a goblins opponent go lackey into siege gang commander. I thoughtseize him and hymn him for my first two plays. I then draw snuff out, snuff the SGC, and drop 2 tarmogoyfs. I win from there by hitting him with another hymn and ld, and by continuing to drop more threats. Granted, I am about 50/50 with it in preboard games.

But that's pre board. Goblins cannot deal with engineered plague + fast clock. At all. It is difficult to lose if you try post board, trust me. I've played the hell out of that matchup (and also played red death in the hay days of goblins, and beat on that deck back then as well). It is not an issue for Eva Green. And I have not been running jitte for a while in the board.

You should actually test the matchup and see for yourself. Play like 10 games pre board and 10 or 15 games post.

electrolyze

09-03-2008, 01:10 AM

most of the time i had an opposing lackey i just played a discard spell to pick out the best goblin out their hand so they couldnt lie down a scary goblin with lackey anymore. the only goblin i am afraid of is wort, it cant be snuffed and survives plague. but when you have plague and they have a wort, it means its already mid/late game and if you did it right, you already have an army of monsters on your side.

about peedle, there isnt much survival/landstill/painter's combo and stuff in my meta but more aggroloam, aluren,enchantress, cb thresh and stuff, so i think seal is better then peedle in my meta.

there is really much storm combo in my meta too, should i play some hate against it in the side, or are 8 discard spellls+hippie+land desctuction+fast clock+extirpate side enough:laugh: because sometimes i have a trouble with dealing wit tes and especially si and belcher.

ChillerKiller0815

09-03-2008, 05:24 AM

Hi guys,
I like the improvement that comes along with reanimate. It makes the discard spells a lot more scarier for your opponents.

I am a lot more interested in the sideboard, because as mentioned before the original list is close to perfect, meaning it leaves room for only small adjustments like:

+ 2 Reanimate ;-1 Shade and -1 Hymn or whatever

Seal vs. Putrefy

Because of these minor changes that will not make the deck dramatically better, combined with the fact that you use your deck including SB more then 50% of the time, I feel like improvements in the sideboard will have a greater influence to the success-rate of Eva Green then changes to the MB.

I will beginn with possible sideboardcards.

Discard (Don´t feel it is needed a lot)

-Duress

Anti-Graveyard (Needed for sure)

Leyline - Its free and backed up with discard it kills almost every gravedependent deck on its own -> Loam, ichorid.....

Extirpate - goes well with sinkhole,wasteland,hymn,thoughtseize,.... and ruins decks with very few wincons or an unstable manabase

Feary macabre - Its free and instant and can be used as a beater (Don´t Know)

Anti enchantment/artifact

Deed - Mass removal but slow
Needle - everything activated
Seal of cleansing - If not in the main
Krosan Grip - Split second
Putrefy - doubles as creature removal but no use against enchantments

Others

Jitte - extra removal against creatures, Burn, own lifeloss,....Just a good card
Plague - Good against decks with Tribes: Sliver, Gobbos, the random Elves you otherwise lose against, faeries, Belcher, Ichorid,......
Choke - a house combined with LD ; Good against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Landstill, MUC, Painter and other blue based decks.

Since many of the suggested cards can be used for multiple purposes, I thing it is promising to build a sideboard using many 3 offs.

For example:

3* Extirpate - Combo, threat-light decks, weak manabases, loam, ichorid,....
3* Putrefy - extra artifact hate in addition to your seals + creature removal in addition to snuff out
3* Choke - Blue based decks
3* Jitte - aniting with problematic critters and/or burn
3* Needle - allround talent

or

4* Leyline - combo
3* Extirpate - ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, painter, belcher, loam, .....(extirpate has a different role then Leyline so they never get sided in for the same match!)
3* Engineered Plague - Gobbos, elves, sliver, (ETW-Tokens),....
2* Duress - Combo/Control in additon to the rest of your discard-stuff+(extirpate)
3* Neddle/3* Jitte - Burn Creatures

As you see there is lots of room for adjustments and thoughts. I would like to read some of your thoughts concerning the SB!

Thx

Sorry about my spelling! I am from Germany
-> Vielen Dank für Ihre Ausführungen!

Sea R Hill

09-03-2008, 08:20 AM

I thought thats what a first turn Snuff out was for....and maybe a sinkhole turn 2, vindicate their vial turn 3....good game, some hymns for good measure, and a thought seize or 2 :-)

Lol If you rely on your playset of Snuff out to win every game you're either a really lucky player or an utopist.
And Sinkhole does nothing against lackey.

Obviously a turn one lackey into something terrible like SGC or Wort is going to be a problem. But that doesn't happen very often, and you still have snuff out to deal with lackey alot of the time.
If you still want to speak in examples, I've had a goblins opponent go lackey into siege gang commander. I thoughtseize him and hymn him for my first two plays. I then draw snuff out, snuff the SGC, and drop 2 tarmogoyfs. I win from there by hitting him with another hymn and ld, and by continuing to drop more threats. Granted, I am about 50/50 with it in preboard games.

Your example is kind of extreme:
1. You have a God draw,
2. Your opponent does nothing except dropping lackey and SGC? It's not realistic.

On the draw if you don't have Snuff Out or DR+Hyppie to deal with their 1st turn Lackey (which happen more often that you seem to think) you are simply dead.
And I've lost games with a Plague on the table. They have Goblin King and/or Mad Auntie.

johanessen

09-03-2008, 09:20 AM

I have 4 berserks in my album... any possibility to play em in this deck? (or playing only 2... )
Thanks for asnwers :D:eek:

nitewolf9

09-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Your example is kind of extreme:
1. You have a God draw,
2. Your opponent does nothing except dropping lackey and SGC? It's not realistic.

1. Hardly. A god draw would have been something silly involving dark ritual + disruption/hyppie and then snuff out. I simply had disruption and creatures. This deck tends to have that mix.
2. He does nothing because I hymned him twice. It's not like I left him alone while lackey connected.

Plus, I wasn't really trying to prove anything with the example. I was simply countering your example with one of my own that actually happened. Examples don't really mean anything because they are isolated incidents. That was kind of my point. What I am saying is that overall the matchup is positive due to lots of playtesting and tournament experience, not because of hypothetical situations.

If you are still worred about goblins I suggest you practice the matchup a bit. It can be a bit tricky sometimes but you will get it if you work at it. Let me know if you have any more questions about it and I'd be glad to give you some advice.

Edit:

I have 4 berserks in my album... any possibility to play em in this deck? (or playing only 2... )
Thanks for asnwers :D:eek:

I as well have berserks, including one of the mintiest beta ones you will find. Sadly, I don't think they would do much for the deck. I had actually tried berserk and rancor in a green splash suicide black deck a while back, like 2006ish. It ran drinker of sorrow and flesh reaver. It was fun, but not good. Oh how I wish berserk were good. You might be able to try it in the seal slot if you want, but it makes swords so much more painful.

Ramptoniin

09-03-2008, 11:53 AM

relying on a play set....no....if you're on the draw you have a pretty decent chance of drawing a snuff out. Or holding a vindicate. And if it is game 2, just mull until you grab a plague opening hand. Ive never lost to Goblins, or GOOD Goblins as you say...So I dont feel your pain. Remember magic is about skill too man. A First turn lackey, while devastating at times, is not the clincher. You say I rely on a play set of Snuff outs....but wouldn't that be you relying on a goblin players play set of Lackeys? Im just now too scared of goblins.....not red burn.....yikes...

Deep6er

09-03-2008, 03:10 PM

So, just to point this out, but if you are playing with a set of Snuff Outs and your opponent is playing with a set of Lackey's, then, theoretically, you should have the exact same percentage of having one of them in your opening hand. You know. That whole math thing and all.

But more on topic, I've played against Dan (nitewolf9) quite a bit with Goblins. We've played roughly 70 pre board and about 130 post-board. I'm a big fan of Goblins (or at least, I used to be), and I enjoyed the Red Death matchup and wanted to see how it dealt with Eva Green.

It's hard. There are a series of situations that have to happen to make the turn one lackey really good.

1) You have to be on the play.

2) They have to not have a Snuff Out.

3) They have to not have Dark Ritual into some creature (or you have Warren Weirding).

4) You have to have something really strong to drop into play (an extension of this is not getting it Thoughtseized out of your hand).

Plus, an important consideration is that Vial is ALWAYS a better first turn play when you don't know what you're playing against. On the occasion that you have both in your hand (and you're playing first), it's better to lead Vial.

I can tell you, with a great deal of experience, that Eva Green is not a match I would want to play against in a tournament if I was playing Goblins. The first one is roughly even, but the post boarded matches are incredibly difficult.

Boarding in answers to Plague makes Goblins less strong. You have zero ways of finding your answer to Plague, and that means that they have more time to disrupt you. Plus, if you rely on green mana to Grip it, then you have the issue of needing to sit on a fetch in order to make sure you can get the green mana to cast it in the face of their Wastelands and Sinkholes. Then, you have to worry about those cards anyway otherwise you won't get to three mana.

Seriously. It's a rough match for Goblins. I would highly recommend not focusing so much on the possible repercussions of an unanswered first turn Lackey because those scenarios are generally rare. Mathematics supports Eva Green having an answer to that scenario.

Ramptoniin

09-03-2008, 03:25 PM

Thanks deep6er, all relevant points about Eva & Goblins, Eva in my opinion has a strong backbone for removal and the threats are there to finish the opponent off, it is an early to mid game kind of deck, and in my opinion only does not fair well in the later game portion at times, but even then can still pull out the win. I feel many of the people on here bashing Eva have just never sat down and actually played with it or against it

electrolyze

09-04-2008, 03:05 PM

i have a question for nitewolf,

you said you played peedle instead of seal with good results, do you think its really better than seal in the deck. because i want to play peedle to in the deck but i really like to know against what things seal would be better than peedle.

my meta consists the most out of combo(storm and other liek aluren, painter and stuff), ichorid, some countertop thresh, aggroloam, goblins and black based aggro/control decks. and afcourse landstill is the last time becoming more populair i think here.

do you think peedle is better than seal here?

it lays down, grindstone, top(the most important reason to play peedle for me. counterbalance is way less scary without top), explosives, deed, fetch(really good after you seized them), manlands, vial, siege gang commander and some other stuff.

while seal kills most stuff too but they could go off(grindstone, top is counterbalance, then seal is useless and peedle comes most of the time earlier then counterbalance. and deed and exlposives, but probably is peedle better because with seal they can respond to blow them up. and other stuff)

with all this, i think peedle is better then seal in the deck.

i would really hear your opinion about peedle vs. seal.

thanks if i get answers, electrolyze

Good sir, is your Shift key broken? If not, then please use it where appropriate. Also be sure to use some correct punctuation.

-PR

nitewolf9

09-04-2008, 03:17 PM

@electrolyze: Honestly, if your meta does not have any survival at all, seal might be the better choice. Needle is better against threshold in my opinion, simply because it shuts down top (which is amazing on its own, and devastating with counterbalance). It also helps attack their manabase in multiples. Also, against tempo thresh decks without cb/top you can still hit fetchlands.

All that being said, seal is better against painter (especially the painter lists that run blasts: just sit on seal and they can't do much), probably slightly better against landstill simply because you can drop it and have an answer to standstill on the board - and it kills humility, and it kills dreadnought. It is also better against chalice stompy varients, and equal against goblins (although sealing their vial will make your goyfs huge). Seal is also slightly better against storm combo because it hits artifact mana, preventing them from playing leds to get around discard, and it also hits chrome moxen with the imprint trigger on the stack. Seal is also very good against aluren.

Like I said though, needle does so much for you against survival that if you expect it at all it would be worth running. It's a tough call either way, but needle is a dead draw less of the time, while seal is simply more powerful against certain decks. I like both cards, but in your case I think seal makes more sense.

Edit: The only thing I would change for you from the original list would be to run crypt instead of jitte. That gives you some serious hate for ichorid, which the deck needs in that matchup, and also gives you a lot of options against aggro loam.

electrolyze

09-04-2008, 03:24 PM

thanks for the reply, with the things you said, i'll probably play seal. altough i liked the idea of peedle in the deck, there is almost no survival in my meta.

and otherwise i would have payed a lot of money for the peedles:wink: while i can better play seal then peedle.

johanessen

09-04-2008, 07:51 PM

I had actually tried berserk and rancor in a green splash suicide black deck a while back, like 2006ish. It ran drinker of sorrow and flesh reaver. It was fun, but not good. Oh how I wish berserk were good. You might be able to try it in the seal slot if you want, but it makes swords so much more painful.

Any possibility in sideboard against aggro, burn, combo, etc? Or definately not in

nitewolf9

09-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Any possibility in sideboard against aggro, burn, combo, etc? Or definately not in

I don't think it's very good. If you want to board something in against aggro or burn, run jitte. And I don't think it would help you much against combo.

electrolyze

09-06-2008, 12:51 PM

okay, just come back from the belgium championschips legacy side event and i became first with eva green:laugh:

i played the original list -1 shade and +1 reanimate and it totally rocked.

my mu's where:

1, 2-1 against death and taxes
2, 2-1 against bg rock
3, 2-1 against a uw vialfish that became first in italy a while ago.
4, 0-2 against a weird control deck with show and tell and colossos. couldtn do anything against this card.
5, 2-1 against mono red sligh
6, 2-0 against not quite survival, the one with spellstutter sprite.

i will write a bigger report later but this is just a quick summary.

from what i can say is that this deck is really one of the strongest deck in the format(serious, no joke) i, mean, this deck can almost defeat every deck in the format and its so increadibly fast and strong. thank you nitewolf and anwar for creating this monster:tongue: it already has won me a spot at the dutch masters and a 80 gig. ipod(which i gave away because i already get a ipod and the not quite survival player(waikiki on this forum) deserved the win actually. but still, that are big prizes:cool:

jazzykat

09-06-2008, 01:01 PM

kikkofrio

09-06-2008, 01:25 PM

jazzykat

09-06-2008, 02:19 PM

I'm going to make a change to the SB.
Italian meta is aggro, with, burn, boros, goblin, but also control...landstill and dreadstill.

So, ti improve the MU vs red deck i want to run this SB:
-4 choke
+4 hidden gibbons

So I can side in hidden gibbons agaist burn, thresh, landstill, boros, and run jitte and plague vs goblin and sorcery deck.

So:

4 hidden gibbons
3 jitte
4 plague
4 leyline

...what do u think about it?

Choke is what gives the blue based control decks seizures. If you want to do something against burn try warmth in the Jitte slot. In all of MY testing I could not get Jitte to work for me. It robs too much tempo. I have never needed jitte but I have needed a soution vs. burn.

SuckerPunch

09-06-2008, 04:11 PM

Congratulations! I am glad to see the reanimate revolution taking over!

Yes indeed. Has anyone that tried Reanimate so far, not been impressed by it?

:)

Speaking of which, Clark showed me his new list recently...

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badland
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tom

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Smallpox
3 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Rancid Earth/Phyrexian Negator.

I really don't know if this was meant to be a Pox deck, or an Eva Green variant. But it retains the strongest elements of both decks.

I really enjoyed trying it out. Blowing up lands is fun. And with 17 land destruction spells that are multifunctional, it seems like a solid gameplan especially combined with uber fast beats and solid undercosted discard.

Also, is anyone else playing the singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It makes like 5% more vulnerable against decks playing Blood Moon. Against the other matchups, it usually translates to one to two point of life gain because of not having use fetchlands to tap them for mana. It also lets you play Hymn/Sinkhole on your second turn off of a Wasteland. It's a tradeoff and I don't know if it's worth it or not.

Deviruchi

09-07-2008, 04:47 AM

3 Badland

You mean Scrubland right?

Also, is anyone else playing the singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It makes like 5% more vulnerable against decks playing Blood Moon. Against the other matchups, it usually translates to one to two point of life gain because of not having use fetchlands to tap them for mana. It also lets you play Hymn/Sinkhole on your second turn off of a Wasteland. It's a tradeoff and I don't know if it's worth it or not.

In my opinion it mostly is.

nitewolf9

09-09-2008, 03:30 PM

electrolyze

09-09-2008, 03:48 PM

I really won much games thanks to seal so it was really, really great. Thanks for the good arguments about seal over peedle earlier. It actually won me games against burn because it pumped my 2 goyfs for the win:cool:

And i saw some jittes that day, seal fixed it. I even sealed a deed, wich let me kill him with my army in 2 turns:smile:

About reanimate, i felt shade was better in the mid/late game becuase you have more land then and reanimate can be good in the early game too(discard+snuff out). And i just really wanted to test it in the deck because first, i didnt believed it was any good. But actually, he did a really good job for me, 2x reanimate a avenger against d and t. I reanimated a witness to get my own goyf back and play it. And i reanimated a grunt against the fish guy who beated him a couple of turns until i had enough lands to make my shade insane.

i really think reanimate is a really good card and i think i'm not gonna cut it from the 4th shade spot anymore because it really can win games for you.
i want to test a 2th reanimate but dont know what to get out of the deck because i think 4 spot removal is really neccesary.

greets, electrolyze

ps, after winning 2 tourneys(from the only 4 tourneys i played with it) with this deck i'm really into it, so a good eva green avatar is good for the spirit of the eva green player:tongue:

We have asked you to use your shift key and you have ignored us. Your posts are tough to read because of the lack of capitals. Warned.

-PR

SuckerPunch

09-09-2008, 08:49 PM

Nice.

Thank you for trying Reanimate instead of just going by gut instinct.

I suggest trying Putrefy in place of Seal.

It hits Jittes, Moxen and what not.

It lets you cut down to 3 Snuff Out since you will now have 6 ways to kill creatures.

That in turn gives you room for your second Reanimate.

And putrefy lets you kill creatures which you then in turn can Reanimate.

You haven't lived till you Reanimated an Exalted Angel and beat face with it. :)

AnwarA101

09-09-2008, 10:43 PM

ps, after winning 2 tourneys(from the only 4 tourneys i played with it) with this deck i'm really into it, so a good eva green avatar is good for the spirit of the eva green player:tongue:

This is someone I can work with. So did you like Reanimate or would you sideboard it?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-10-2008, 12:40 AM

lolwut prs sucha grump roflmao

Seriously, though, have you tested Tangle Wire? It just seems like has the potential to be amazing in the Seal/Piddle/Leyline slot. It keeps the early game early for several turns and is remarkably one-sided in actual practice.

electrolyze

09-10-2008, 01:08 AM

@Anwar

I think I let the one reanimate in the main, because there are often many aggro/aggrocontrol decks in my meta like suiblack, d and t, fishlike decks, thresh but the biggest reason I play reanimate is loam. There is really much loam in my meta and reanimate is just insane if they loam a fattie away or something. I even won against ichorid because i reanimated the only dredger in its grave and beated with it(an a stalker:laugh: ).

So I would play that one reanimate in the main and probably a second if i tested more. Maybe i'm gonna test suckerpunch configurations but I really like seal, so i'll see how it turns out.

I think you can put a second or even a third in the sideboard, but I havent tested that so i cant really say if its good or not.

Greetz, Electrolyze

Illissius

09-10-2008, 05:35 AM

If Putrefy is too slow for The Rock (and it is), I have trouble seeing how it could be any good here. Or, for that matter, anywhere.

SuckerPunch

09-10-2008, 10:13 AM

That's false and you know it.

The only reason the rock doesn't run Putrefy is because Deed is straight up better in a deck designed around it. Eva Green can't support deed.

In addition, a lot of Rock lists splash white and play Vindicate and StP (which I and many others feel to be the best configuration both for the Rock and Eva Green).

But if you're not splashing white and since this deck doesn't play nice with Deed, Putrefy is quite comparable to Seal. It costs one more mana, but killing creatures (even black ones) gives it a lot more versatility.

Illissius

09-10-2008, 10:27 AM

Eva Green is a tempo deck, and Putrefy costs more than most things you would be killing with it. How is that remotely good? It also doesn't kill Counterbalance or Standstill, which are two of the main attractions of Seal.

I could see Vindicate because at least you can destroy lands with it and it hits Counterbalance, but Putrefy? No way.

Other: Did anything ever happen with the the blue splash for Daze which was discussed a while ago?

jazzykat

09-10-2008, 02:36 PM

I brought it up in the Eva article thread but I have played a few test matches with a base Bg Eva list with 4 Thorn of Amethyst and while its too early to tell I really like it.

We play
4 Stalker
4 Goyf
4 Specter
3/4 Some dude

That's 15/16 creatures, which is more than most good decks in the format given that we attack their manabase and hand anyway it seems like a strong card. Obviously if you can get it out, all combo decks but Ichorid need to deal with it before going off. It protects you from Daze (which absolutely busts this decks balls) and causes people to have to make decisions in the early game like...do I want to tap out and play something or keep a mana up for a FOW/Daze or whatever. It fundamentally skews a large part of thresh holds plan (ponder for 2? ICK) while giving us a little more time to lay down big dudes.

If we are the tempo deck then let's steal more tempo from the opponent.

johanessen

09-19-2008, 11:52 AM

Sideboard: I don't like Enginereed Plague having Umezawa's Jitte.

Anyone has tested Pernicious deed on side?

jazzykat

09-19-2008, 12:00 PM

I haven't and as good as deed is I would be against it on principle. Everything in this deck is not only proactive, but VERY fast. Deed takes 2 turns which is obviously OK if you are losing but what are you losing against, and can your manabase take the extra strain?

nitewolf9

09-19-2008, 12:07 PM

Deed is a bit slow and it also can hit your own stuff. What would you need pernicious deed against? Counterslivers? I don't know, it is a powerful card, but it's also very reactive and I'm not sure it helps you very much with your more dicey matchups. Plague has always been good for me and I have never been unhappy with it in the board. It is not as narrow as it seems.

johanessen

09-19-2008, 12:39 PM

Okay. I'm trying this deck in a torney tomorrow. I'll explain how it goes :D

yankeedave

11-04-2008, 06:51 AM

I played in a small local tourney here last week, playing the standard list, but with only 3 Tombstalker (I like to call him Tom) and 2 Reanimates. I came first with 3-0 record, only losing 1 game. Its been a week, and I dont have the best memory, so apologies if this isnt exactly correct! Here were my match ups:

Round 1 – Poor man’s Slivers no counters – Cant remember his name, but he had great hair! G1 went to him, I didn’t have enough removal for his horde and he got the regen sliver and the lifelink sliver going, so I scooped to save time. I had taken my E.Plagues out of the SB before we started. They will be going straight back in! G2 – Eva Green did what it was supposed to do and 2 Sinkholes and a Reanimate on one of this Harmonic Slivers gave me the game. G3 – Cant really remember this one, but I remember it was a battle and life totals were both low. I think multiple Snuff Out carried this one. Umezama Jitte also played a big part in this one, taking down the lifelink sliver when he reared his ugly head. I think I got 6 tokens for the pump to win!

Round 2 – Blue White Enchantment Control – I think this was Alan? G1 – he keeps laying Pacifisms and Faiths Fettors and similar on all my creatures. I see a little bit of discard, but nothing special. I finally lay a Hippie and he doesn’t have a ‘chant for it, so he WoGs and I reanimate a Hippie and rip another and they take the game. G2 – I lay an early Seal of Primodium and this keeps him from using his Genju of the Fields (after I already Sinkholed one plains with it on, must remember that Genju’s go back to the owners hand!) and i beat him down with flyers.

Round 3 – Artifact deck with Tezzeret and Door to nothingness – Declan – G1 – He gets an early Tezzeret, but I have Tom and Hippie early too, my first attack with Tom gets assigned to Tezzeret and he says that I am the first person all day to take him down. He was running artifact land and paying X=0 to search it out. Cant be having that! I chump his Master of Etherium to gain time, until I i get him within lethal range, then let his attack thru, and kill him the next turn. G2 – keep a hand of swamp, Dark ritual, 3 thoughtseize and a reanimate. I cast two thoughtseizes and clear out his hand and reanimate a darksteel gargoyle. I am now on 7 life. I then get a Goyf and a Tom online. I At some point I must have cracked a fetch, as I was on 6 life and he casts another creature. I am tapped but have Snuff Out, so dropped myself to 2 life and finish him off.

Really lucky all night, with the top decks I needed. I see people have been putting Dark Confidant back in this deck, but I am not so sure, Tombstalker (I love Tom) is just too big! Was great fun tho, the deck played out really well and always gave me what I needed! I really like reanimate, won me at least 2 games!

Slayer001

11-05-2008, 11:53 AM

I would never run bob in eva green, it does more things worse then it does good.
The carddraw is nice, but you can pay a high price for it. and 4 tombstalker's is much better then you light think. i'm always able too cast multiple of them during matchups. You get enough cards in the yard (fetches, thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole, ..)

I don't play reanimate but it might be worth considering though but not for tombstalker. I don't know yet what to cut for it.

overseer1234

11-05-2008, 08:24 PM

I don't play reanimate but it might be worth considering though but not for tombstalker. I don't know yet what to cut for it.
I cut 1 nantuko shade for it, since it becomes better when you have more manna and it isn't really that great in multiples.

yankeedave

11-06-2008, 07:16 AM

I cut one fetchland and a Tombstalker, but I would change that to be a Nantuko Shade in the future, its a much better threat all round. Ideally, Wizards will print another nasty black/green creature that has great tempo and we can take Shade out all together! I havent been happy with him for a while, but cant find a suitable replacement!

Clark Kant

11-07-2008, 12:10 PM

Might I suggest playing Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Nantuko Shade.

This is my preferred configuration here...

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ashenmoor Gouger
2 Reanimate

Obfuscate Freely

11-07-2008, 07:23 PM

I'm surprised by people's dissatisfaction with Nantuko Shade. It's a tremendous threat, and one of the very few two-drops that can survive combat with Tarmogoyfs, especially later in the game.

Ashenmoor Gouger costs more mana to play, and has a weaker body that will rarely best an opposing Tarmogoyf. It seems considerably worse, unless your metagame is overrun by Lightning Bolts.

Clark Kant

11-08-2008, 12:35 AM

Don't get me wrong. Nantuko Shade is a fantastic creature.

It's just that I'm not convinced he is the best choice in this particular deck.

Shade requires a tremendous mana investment to pump. But he doesn't stay pumped.

To trade with a Goyf, you would usually have to pump 4 mana into him (on top of the initial two mana casting cost). So you spent 6 mana to trade with a 2cc creature. That could work in slower more controllish deck that goes into the late game often. But that doesn't seem like a great investment in a deck that wins quickly and rarely has any mana to spare.

To me, Nantuko Shade seems like a worse figure of destiny. For that same initial 2 mana investment, you can drop down Figure of Destiny as a 2/2. But then, if you pump Figure of Destiny, it stays pumped for the rest of the game. Nantuko Shade needs to be pumped every single time. Yes, I know we can't play Figure of Destiny. I'm using it to illustrate the point that the powerlevel of creatures has increased well past Nantuko Shade.

Kird Ape

11-09-2008, 11:51 AM

Long time zoo player recently traded some stuff and acquired the cards needed for the original build on page 1. I took this deck to a local tourny in gainsville and was very pleased. I had an idea of the meta so I played 3 Md pithing needle and put the seal in the SB. Some of the people I spoke to did not like this idea, but I was never unhappy when I saw a needle and it really wrecked a few of the decks that I played.

Here's a little report:

Match 1: Blue.dec storming up for giant brainfreeze (1-0)

Game 1: I sit there while my opponent mutters to himself and taps and untaps land while counting, I went and got a drink. When I came back he said that I lost. GG

Game 2: 4 choke comes in
I have a sick draw good disruption and needle. Turn 1 I play needle and name candelabra. The game goes on and I play choke, then another needle naming mind over matter. Eventually I wear him out with a goyf or something.

Game 3: I see 2 needle and choke in my opening hand. Called Candelabra and Mind over Matter again. It was not pretty, drew into the 3rd needle within 4 turns and called flooded strand. The game ended with 3 strands on his side and 2 hyppies swinging in.

Match 2: Little man super pump (1-1)

Game 1: OWNED with a double invigorated something or other.

Game 2: put in 3 Engineered Plague
What a beating, mulled to 5 and still didn't see any help. GG

Match 3: Mono black kinda combo? (2-1)

Game 1: Pretty one-sided had disruption and creatures. He thoughtseized my pithing needle then I TD another and name "bosieum strip"? I'm not sure if that is the name, but it was essential to his combo.

Game 2: Another steam roll, disruption and creatures in the draw. I'm pretty sure the game ended like turn 6 or 7 with goyf, hyppie, and tombstalker on the board.

Match 4 (3-1) Deadnought/stife

Game 1: turn 2 dreadnought + stifle. I think these are good cards when played together.... I have no answers.

Game 2: Sb in 3 seal and 3 or 4 choke.
I didn't see top game one so I drop a needle and call mishra's factory. He is kinda happy and drops a top. It's a battle now, but I draw another needle and call flooded strand. The game drags on and I'm in TD mode getting a hymm off and then choke comes down. It doesn't take long from that point, especially with the 3 flooded strands sitting on board and 4th being topped every turn.

Game 3: O-Tundra go
Me-Wasteland, Needle
O-Brainstorm, pull back tundra daze

O-Island go
Me-Swamp go

O-Flooded strand, Top go
Me-Bayou, hyppie
O-FOW

O-Tundra go
Me-(play error) Wasteland the Tundra, play another Wasteland cast Choke.
O- Sits there and looks at his hand and I ask if it walks. He Untaps his island and I tell him that it doesn't untap now and could you please move your top back off of my board space. He then scoops and is pretty frustrated with everything Magic.

I go about my business feeling tension in the air and immediately start to not have fun due some unsportsmanlike conduct, where's the zebras with their yellow flags?

All in all this is a very mean deck and you're not going to make alot of friends playing it. However, if you don't care about anyone, this is the deck to play as it puts a hurting on blue (which I hate). I was generally impressed and I am not so sure about adding white for vindicate/Stp. I felt the deck was very fast and had good tempo all day. Turn one thoughseize, turn 2 hymm, turn 3 hyppie? Come on, is that even fair?

Also with Needle in the main it's more situational, but in all the games that I played it did something and I think that something was better than seal, but this is very meta dependant.

Captain Hammer

11-09-2008, 01:12 PM

Honestly, I was never 100% sold on Sinkhole unless it had Vindicate or something to supplement it.

I wanted to try a slightly different more aggressive direction for this deck based on some of the cards people have been playing recently.

So I put together the below build, interested to hear other people's thoughts on it...

8 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Reanimate (I am in love with this card now)
3 Snuff Out

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Ashenmoor Gouger
2 Shriekmaw

Playing Shriekmaw allows me to cut a Snuff Out (since worse in multiples), and really abuse Reanimate when neccesary to take down two opposing creatures and get a 3/2 on your side all for just three mana.

I know the 2 Wasteland probably seem strange. The deck never goes the mana denial route so more than two would not go great with Nantuko Shade and Ashenmoor Gouger. But with two, you get a way to take out Factories, occasionally cut decks off from a particular color, and give you something to do one you play out your land.

I really would love to hear what other people think of the build and the direction that I took this deck in.

Please don't suggest any major changes, just minor revisions.

Natthew

11-09-2008, 05:18 PM

Noob question:

Which is the better order to play Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach off of a turn 1 Dark Ritual? Playing Thoughtseize first makes them discard more lands, but Hymn first has a better chance of getting rid of their best cards.

Captain Hammer

11-09-2008, 05:43 PM

It's fairly variable. If you know you're facing off against a fast combo deck, I would Hymn then Thoughtseize.

But I'm guessing you're asking about game one when you have no idea what they're playing.

Then, on the very rare occasion that you have absolutely no other 2cc cards, and no chance for a first turn Hyppe, I would Hymn first and then Thoughtseize away the best card out of what they have left over.

But 90% of the time, I have Reanimate or Shade or Sinkhole or something else I could potentially play after the Thoughtseize. So I Thoughtseize first, then decide whether I want to Hymn or play that alternative card based on what their hand looks like.

Then usually, I end up Hymning them anyway, but there are exceptions.

For example, say that when I Thoughtseize and I see that they are mana flooded but have some sweet creature like Sea Drake to make them discard and Reanimate and see nothing else in their hand that's threatening. I would just opt to Reanimate so I can beat for 4 and Hymn them next turn. If they're mana flooded anyways, no point is Hymning away worthless cards when I could potentially make them discard something solid by waiting till next turn.

Or if instead say a hand with lots of land, no relevent threats or removal, I might opt to cast Shade instead and Hymn them next turn.

ChillerKiller0815

11-10-2008, 01:31 PM

Hi guys,
I would like to post my latest version of EVA GREEN. I made some changes that took the MD into a direction that could adept a little better to aggro and control decks.

I would like to hear some thoughts!

4*Tarmogoyf
4*Tombstalker
4*Hypnotic Specter
3*Nantunko Shade

4*Thoughtseize
4*Hymn to Tourach
3*Snuff Out
3*Putrefy
2*Reanimate
4*Dark Ritual
4*Sinkhole

6*Swamp
1*Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4*Bayou
4*Wasteland
3*Polluted Delta
3*Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD:
4*Extirpate
4*Choke
3*Jitte
2*Seal of Primordium
2*Faerie Macabre

Some own thoughts to the changes:

- I cut 1 Shade since seeing multiples especially early in the game is bad. Shade seems to me the weakest of the used creatures. He absorbs resources while not having evasion or any other kind of ability. Shade is rather fragile to creature hate like fire/ice, mogg fanatic, pyroclasm, even stuff like feastering goblin and the like.
- I had to get to slots for the two reanimates I play. Reanimate showed to be incredibly strong in this deck. Since it reanimates creatures it was clear to me to cut 1 creature from the main board. A fast clock combined with the massive hand destruction and the 6 maindeck creature removals makes reanimate just rock. This is especially true for a meta that is crowded with goyfs!
- Because I wanted to capitalize on reanimate the best I could I decided to replace the seals with putrefy. I know putrefy is a little more expensive and wants me to keep resources open. That is why cutting a shade made sense as well. Further playing 3 Putrefy ensures to see at least one during a longer game but not necessarly in the early game-stages. Since there aren´t too many enchantments that really hurt EVA GREEN or at least not in my meta, replacing seal with putrefy isn´t a big drawback considering the discard you play for possible threats in form of enchantments. (Counterbalance, Humility, SotF, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison,..,anything else?)
- Playing 3 extra creature removal allowed me to cut an extra snuff out making room for the second Reanimate and saving some life.
- I like the singleton Urborg because it sometimes helps getting the second black mana if you have a wasteland and urborg in your opening hand. Powers out the shade a little better in the mid- to lategame if you have unused wastelands and saves some life (no fetching) in case you had to overextent with the thoughtseizes and the snuff outs.
- Since I play reanimate I had to replace the Leylines in the board by Extirpates. They showed to be even better most of the time since they underline the disruption concept of this deck very nicely. Wasteland, Sinkholes and Extirpate often cause heavy manasrew! Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Hypnotic and Extirpate are a mess for keycards of any sort, being enough to battle combo.
- Since I wanted to have a solution against fast combo on the draw I included the faeries. They are played as a 2-off since they are just a bonus to the extirpates. They also double as a 2/2 beater with evasion which can carry a jitte.
- I play 2 seals since I had two open slots and wanted to have a solution against enchantments that are gamebreaking and didn´t get handled by discard.
- I dropped the engineered Plagues from the sideboard since I always felt that the only time I play them is against goblins and Combo going for ETW-Tokens. Both decks aren´t seen a lot in my meta.

Up to now I could not find any drawbacks using this list instead of the original one during tournaments and play testing. This list is still solid against combo (even better against none grave-based-combo), solid against control and improved the aggro match ups.

I would like to hear some thoughts from you guys. Has anyone tried a similar list and got results?

Thanks

Captain Hammer

11-10-2008, 09:21 PM

I like the list a LOT actually. I love Reanimate too.

This list is almost identical to a lists posted about two pages ago.

The only thing I might possibly try would be to switch from...

3 Snuff Out
3 Putrefy

to

4 Snuff Out
2 Putrefy/Smother

(Killing artifacts is really not that critical, usually, your discard stops anything really bad from resolving).

The other change I might make is to maybe go back to the 8 fetchland 3 bayou configuration.

The fetchland feeds Tombstalker, Goyf, and lets you grab basics to get around Blood Moon.

humppa

11-11-2008, 04:04 AM

Are hypnotics really so good?

I found them usually "too slow", or "too small". Only few times they were useful - there was time and no defenders/stronger attackers.

chokin

11-11-2008, 04:29 AM

Are hypnotics really so good?

I found them usually "too slow", or "too small". Only few times they were useful - there was time and no defenders/stronger attackers.

First turn Hyppie, second turn Hymn = 3 random cards pitched. That can be hard to recover from by itself. If you nail lands, Sinkhole becomes more powerful, otherwise the other discard effects will devastate. An unanswered Hyppie will keep their hand size at like 4 or less if they keep up with land drops. Your discard forces this number down.

ChillerKiller0815

11-11-2008, 06:25 AM

Ok thanks for the reply Captain Hammer!

What do you think about the sideboard?

Options are:

#1
4*Extirpate
4*Choke
3*Jitte
2*Seal of Primordium
2*Faerie Macabre

#2
4*Extirpate
3*Choke
3*Jitte
2*Pernicious deed
3*Plague

#3
4*Leyline
3*Choke
2*Jitte
3*Needle
3*Plague

#4 CLASSIC
4*Leyline
4*Choke
3*Jitte
4*Plague

#5
3*Extirpate
3*Needle
3*Choke
1*Reanimate
3*Faerie Macabre
2*Jitte

I simply feel the Sideboard needs some more attention in eva green. Considering eva green´s concept of disrupting the opponent while being still very fast the sideboard needs to be overhauled.

I feel the engineered plague isn´t needed anymore especially not as a 4-off. Leyline isn´t playable unless you have it in your opening hand. If hardcasted it eats up a whole turn while often being too late against the decks you would like to use it against. I like the speed, the split second and the progressive threat-/manaremoval of extirpate a lot better. Also eva green plays snuff out because it is free and enables us to power out threats to seal the game quickly and make sure the opponent can´t recover from the setbacks. If you keep this strategy in mind it makes sense to play faerie macabre in the sideboard. It is a free grave-removal making sure you don´t lose tempo and can double as a critter with evasion. So basically faerie is good against: Ichorid, Iggy, Survival, Loam, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Reanimator,…..and decks you need some more critters to carry a jitte.
I general eva green is a deck that has a very powerful early game and needs to seal the game quickly after to make sure the opponent can´t recover. That´s why free spells are being played and reanimate is so good in this deck. Reanimate allows us to use discard and the free creature removal and get a beater very early in the game.

Is Hypnotic Specter still good?

YES!!!
First turn land+ritual+Specter is still unfair and is often game-breaking right there! And as I said before Eva Green wants to disrupt the opponent and then seal the game quickly. Hypnotic Specter allows us to keep the disruption up and carry the game into the mid- to lategame!
Guess why people try to answer a Specter so quickly if he hits the board! --> Because he is devastating if unanswered! Hypnotic Specter is a house against COMBO.

humppa

11-11-2008, 06:40 AM

Is Hypnotic Specter still good?

YES!!!
First turn land+ritual+Specter is still unfair and is often game-breaking right there! And as I said before Eva Green wants to disrupt the opponent and then seal the game quickly. Hypnotic Specter allows us to keep the disruption up and carry the game into the mid- to lategame!
Guess why people try to answer a Specter so quickly if he hits the board! --> Because he is devastating if unanswered! Hypnotic Specter is a house against COMBO.
Well, how often do you have dark ritual + hypnotic in your opening hand?
How often is hypnotic useful agains combo in third (with DR later)-fourth turn?
Hypnotic without another extra card (ritual) can take one random card in turn 4. It's not slow? It's really useful agains combo?

ChillerKiller0815

11-11-2008, 06:57 AM

Well, how often do you have dark ritual + hypnotic in your opening hand?
How often is hypnotic useful agains combo in third (with DR later)-fourth turn?
Hypnotic without another extra card (ritual) can take one random card in turn 4. It's not slow? It's really useful agains combo?

Well you don´t have to play Specter as a standalone creature. Good news, he is beeing played in a deck called eva green which supports him!:cool:

Setting your opponent back by wasteland, sinkhole, hymn, seize makes him lose a few turns. So a specter disrupting your opponent in turn four feels very early for him, if he still hasn´t got some lands online or only 2 card left in hand!
So is Specter a good card in general?---> I don´t know
Is he fast?--> If you do something in your first 2 turns like you should-->Yes. If you do something like: Swamp,go; Swamp, go; Swamp, Hypnotic, Go he is not being as attractive anymore. Whereas 1st turn Seize, 2nd turn hymn or sinkhole, 3rd turn hypnotic is damn sexy. And yes you have the swamp ritual specter opening a few times during the 8-15 games (not matches) you play during a tournament.

Is Specter a good creature? --> In EVA GREEN he sure is!

vs. Combo
Hypnotic Specter kills a combo player if you live long enough! That you get there can be ensured by seize, hymn, extirpate, faerie macabre..... so again, it´s not the creature by itself! It´s the way he supports the rest of your stratgy that makes him good.

yankeedave

11-11-2008, 07:09 AM

Unfortunately, there isnt a suitable replacement for either Hyppie or Shade at the moment. We have gone round and round this several times, but there is just not a good replacement for these two. Yes, Hyppie is slow if you cast it 3rd turn, and yes, Shade is weak against most removal, but until the next set or the set after or never, we are not going to replace them with anything as good. Withered Wretch and Ashenmoor Gouger are both ok cards, Wretch is great if you see a lot of Loam or Ichorid, Gouger if you dont like Shade, or Negator, but I really cant see the point in arguing these slots until something comes along and makes the cut for replacing them.

As for sideboards, when I won that last tournament, I didnt know what I was facing, so I played 3 Crypts, 3 Yixlid Jailers, 3 Extirpate, 3 Pithing Needle and 3 Jitte. Having now seen the meta there I would now change the Extirpates for Nev's Disk and maybe swop the Jailers out for something else too, maybe Krosan Grips. I didnt see any blue control, but I did see two Sliver (one was Controlslivers, one was poorman) decks, so would also maybe find room for some EPlagues, but they arent too effective against Slivers, so I dont know! I am not sure about Choke in my meta, but it is a solid inclusion if you know there are a butt load of control decks in your area! I wouldnt include it just to find Counterslivers!

The maindeck of Eva Green is solid, with only 1 or 2 changable slots really, but I do agree, a better SB does need discussion.

humppa

11-11-2008, 07:57 AM

Is Specter a good creature? --> In EVA GREEN he sure is!
good point of view, thanks!

ChillerKiller0815

11-11-2008, 10:01 AM

The maindeck of Eva Green is solid, with only 1 or 2 changable slots really, but I do agree, a better SB does need discussion.

Hi Yankeedave, I am on your side concerning the maindeck. I think there is only 1 questionable slot in the original list and 4 slots that can be tweaked to the meta!
I think the questionable slot is the shade number 4!

The other card I had to cut was the snuff out #4. This made room for two reanimates, which are a really solid inclusion! Since 3 spot removal didn´t seem the right number I exchanged the 3 seals with 3 putrefys. I basically adepted the Seal slot to my meta. Both cards serve a very simular role.

To the Sideboard:
Lets try to start the discussion from a different perspective! Which are the cards you could most likely board out against what type of deck. If we find these numbers we know how many slots in the board we can dedicate to that type of deck.

Aggro:
4*Sinkholes+ 1*Hymn = 5 slots

Control:
1-2*Snuff Out + ??? = 1-3 slots

Combo:
4*Sinkhole+ 3*Snuff Out = about 7 slots

5 + 3 + 7 = 15

Possible cards for:

Aggro:
Engineered Plague
Jitte
Faerie macabre

Control:
Extirpate
Krosan Grip/Seal
Choke
Needle

Combo:
Extirpate
Faerie Macabre
Needle

Lets try to find some cards that serve multiple purposes and lets keep them in the numbers we assumed above.

Extirpate --> Control/Combo
Faerie --> Aggro/Combo/Control
Needle--> Control/ Combo

I think it is promissing to use many 3-offs in the sideboard since this way you have a broad variety of cards you can choose from. If in addition multi-purpose cards are being used we get a very flexible board that is very useful against most decks.

I would suggest something like:

4*Extirpate --> 4 because you need it early in order to be able to ruin manabases or take winoptions

3*Faerie Macabre --> allround talent but not too impressive

3*Needle --> This could be some kind of enchantment hate too! But the needle solves many problem enchantments like SotF, Seismic Assault as well!

3*Choke --> The card is a must-have against blue it won me so many games it isn´t even funny anymore

2*Jitte--> 2 is ok since seeing multiples is bad and having one very early is bad too. You need to use the first 2-4 turns to get a position after that you can afford to invest 4 mana to play the jitte but not earlier.

Just trying to start something here!

Captain Hammer

11-11-2008, 01:14 PM

I actually think Reanimate is one of the best cards you can board in against aggro.

I'm playing two in the sideboard. It's actually a better card to board in their either Engineered Plague or Fairie Macabre.

I actually think Plague's days are behind it. Other than Elves and Goblins, what matchups does Plague actually help you against, really. I would actually run some Smothers in the board before I would run Plague.

I also think Extripate and Fairies Macrable are rather weak effects. Devoting six sideboard slots to very weak graveyard hate seems suboptimal. They're versatile all around card that have a rather weak effect. I would rather play Leyline since that can reliably completely shut down Ichorid and a lot of loam decks. You just have to mulligan into it, but it's such a huge bomb turn 0. You can supplement it with 1-2 Planar Void if you want.

Slayer001

11-14-2008, 07:48 AM

I'm not a fan of extirpate either, its just not good enough, you have way better plays then extirpate its not good in eva green, not good in team america, not good in sui, ...

My board looks like this

4x Engineered plague
4x leyline of the void
4x choke
3x Seal

I switch between 3x jitte, 3x seal and 3x pithing needle MD in different tournaments depends on what is most likely to be seen there.

Captain Hammer

11-14-2008, 04:27 PM

I'm curious. Those of you that side Engineered Plague (and that seems to be just about everyone actually), how often do you side it in and what do you use it against.

I can see it being great against goblins and elves. But beyond that, I didn't figure the card to be particularly useful against enough decks to dedicate 4 slots to in the sideboard.

In the decks that play Ashenmoor Gouger instead of Nantuko Shade, I would think that Infest would be more generally useful.

tomjulioo

11-14-2008, 04:56 PM

engineered plagues are usefull against slivers but infest could be great too

on the other way, infest force you to play Ashenmoor Gouger instead of Nantuko Shade... and i don't want to make this change

Captain Hammer

11-14-2008, 08:32 PM

Engineered Plague seems less than worthwhile against Slivers.

You would get a much stronger impact Snuffing Out or Smothering a Muscle Sliver or that white Muscle Sliver, or that Plating Sliver as you would casting Engineering Plague naming Slivers. Because, then you're basically doing the same thing as Plague all while getting rid of one of their creatures too.

Jak

11-14-2008, 08:59 PM

Engineered Explosives is the best against Slivers. Targetted removal is pretty bad, not terrible, but the cards just become dead when a Crystalline resolves.

Captain Hammer

11-14-2008, 10:10 PM

Who mentioned Engineered Explosives? We were talking about Engineered Plague.

As for Explosives, it has the unfortunately side effect of blowing up your own Tarmogoyfs and Nantuko Shades (and Seals if you happen to still be playing the old list). Plus it costs 4 mana over two turns to do.

EE still works okay esp since I'm not playing Shade. I might give it a shot if I saw a lot of Slivers matchups (which I almost never do), but I think I'm going to end up sticking with Infest or Jitte or something else.

Jak

11-14-2008, 10:18 PM

Captain Hammer

11-14-2008, 10:40 PM

That's cool. Yeah, EE is solid against Slivers. Slivers doesn't seem to have any real presence though from what I see. So to get back on track.

Do you have any thoughts on the sideboard answer to aggro? Are you fan of Engineered Plague, Jitte, or do you opt for EE, Infest or something else instead? I really want to hear from more people that play Plague, their experiences with the card.

Aside from Elves and Goblins (and Slivers), when do you side in Plague, and what creature types do you name with Plague? Thanks in advance for your input.

ChillerKiller0815

11-15-2008, 04:37 AM

Hi Captain Hammer,

Concerning E.Plague:

I feel the same about E.Plague as you do. I think a lot of people use them because that’s what most people do. When I played them I boarded them in because I didn´t have any better cards to side.

When is E.Plague useful:
1. Against Tribal-Decks of any sort (mostly Gobbos, Elves , Sliver, Faeries and random stuff like Zombies ;-) )

2. E.Plague becomes very useful at times when you face combo. It is nice to see a Belcher player invest all his ressources for 14 Gobbo-Tokens and you answer by playing an E.Plague the next turn.

- Belcher -->Gobbo Tokens
- Ichorid -->Zombies, Moebas, Horror
- Solitaire/Enchantress -->Enchantress
- LifeDeck (rarely seen) -->Clerics

3. All decks you are afraid a certain creature hits the table with a great impact such as Disciple of the Vault, Dark Confidant, Sacred Mesa, Landstill (Assembly Worker), Mangara of Corondor,……. As a solution for a single creature this card insn´t that useful but it does the job even thought other cards might do the job better.

So I thing if you face a lot of #1 E:Plague is a must have. If you face a lot of combo Extirpate with Discard is better because it gives you a solution to all their kill-mechanics. #3 can be handled by a lot of stuff: Diabolic Edict, Infest, Jitte, Shriekmaw, EE, Keg,……

I think E.Plague isn´t the best Sideboardcard as long as you don´t see tons of tribal decks (which I don´t) and therefore needs to be discussed.

By

Captain Hammer

11-15-2008, 03:20 PM

Fantastic Post.

I'm on the same boat as you, only rarely facing tribal decks so I don't feel the need to play EP in the side.

Like you said, EP can be useful against combo. But you're better off playing something proactive/disruptive imho.

As for your original question, I actually haven't settled on a sideboard yet, play a different one each week, but a slightly modified version of what you posted here seems interesting...

2*Extirpate/Engineered Plague
3*Needle
3*Choke
1*Reanimate
4*Leyline of the Void
2*Jitte

The major different between this and what I'm playing is...

-2 Extripate
-1 Jitte
+3 Krosan Grip (I'm not playing any MD artifact/enchantment kill, relying instead on my discard).

Forbiddian

11-15-2008, 03:54 PM

Actually, "Enchantress" is an illegal creature type, despite the fact that it says Enchantress ON THE CARD.

The card "Argothian Enchantress" was errata'd to "Human Druid." All other Enchantresses received similar errata (becoming Druids in 8th and then Human Druids in 9th). Like anybody would guess that. Argothian Elder is an Elf Druid and clearly has pointy ears. There's no pointy ears clue on Enchantress, but she has Elven characteristics like being totally smexay. Like... Yavimaya Enchantress is a Human Druid, what the fuck? It has pointy ears in the UD version.

Anyway, just name human or druid, you'll be good. You could also name Pegasus, which is thankfully unambiguous and didn't suffer ridiculous errata. I think it's somewhat important to know what to name if you were putting Eplague in your board and Solitaire was one of the reasons to do that. NOW YOU KNOW!

Jaiminho

11-15-2008, 04:10 PM

Actually, "Enchantress" is an illegal creature type, despite the fact that it says Enchantress ON THE CARD.

Is there an "illegal creature type"? As far as I know, changelings are affected by Engineered Plague even if you name Spaceship.

DalkonCledwin

11-15-2008, 04:33 PM

- Solitaire/Enchantress -->Enchantress

Just a notation... the creature type you want to name against the Solitaire Enchantress deck is not "Enchantress" it is "Human" or even "Druid" as these are the new creature types that these creatures happen to be as per Oracle 2007/10/01 (Argothian Enchantress), 2006/01/15 (Femeref Enchantress), 2005/08/01 (Yavimaya Enchantress). In point of fact all of the Enchantress cards that happen to be creatures are now the creature type "Human Druid"

Also @ Forbiddian, Enchantress itself isn't an Illegal Creature type... it just isn't an official Creature type as the official creature type are the ones that the Enchantresses were errata'd to. In any case, it is perfectly legal to name "Enchantress" with Engineered Plague. The problem is it won't do anything (at least not against a competent player anyways)!!!

Forbiddian

11-15-2008, 04:39 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-15-2008, 04:49 PM

Oh, snap, time to play Enchantress again and be a rules Nazi.

"Name a creature type."
*reading the card* "Ok, Enchantress."
"Owned."

That's so mean, though. I thought they had to at least name a creature type that exists in MTG for Eplague.

# 212.1e - If an instruction requires choosing a subtype, you must choose one, and only one, existing subtype, and the subtype you choose must be for the appropriate card type. For example, you can't choose a land type if an instruction requires choosing a creature type. (Use the Oracle card reference to determine whether a creature type exists; see Rule 200.2. You will also find complete lists of subtypes in the glossary at the end of this document under "Creature Types," "Land Types," etc.) [CompRules 2007/10/01]
Example: When choosing a creature type, "Merfolk" or "Wizard" is acceptable, but "Merfolk Wizard" is not. Words like "artifact," "opponent," "Swamp," or "truck" can't be chosen because they aren't creature types. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

hmmm... it does appear that the creature type choosen does have to be an existing type... anyways if neither player knows that the creature type of Enchantress doesn't exist, then I don't see the harm in naming enchantress... but if either player does know this, then the rules NAZIism can begin. However the rules NAZIism will not force Engineered plague to fizzle, as far as I know. Naming an illegal card type may at premier events cause a game win for the person opposing the E-Plague but that is the best it could do. At the worst the Judge could say, "pick a creature type that actually does exist." However neither the Judge, nor the opposing player are required to inform the E-Plague player what the Enchantress Creature type is (well perhaps the Judge is, if asked).

Forbiddian

11-15-2008, 05:01 PM

Well, if you DO know that Enchantress doesn't exist (presumably you must in order to save your Argothian Enchantress), then you have to declare that or it's cheating-fraud and you could get disqualified. Dammit, why did you post that rule? Now I'm cognizant of it and could get cheating-fraud. If I didn't know that rule, then I could claim I thought naming Enchantress was legal even though it didn't exist.

Ugh. I guess I'll go back to not cheating then. Damn.

I can still force my opponent to choose a legal creature type and I'm not required to give him the updated oracle text on Argothian Enchantress. He could easily name Elf, I guess.

DalkonCledwin

11-15-2008, 05:05 PM

I can still force my opponent to choose a legal creature type and I'm not required to give him the updated oracle text on Argothian Enchantress. He could easily name Elf, I guess.
Indeed he could :D

Nihil Credo

11-15-2008, 05:06 PM

However neither the Judge, nor the opposing player are required to inform the E-Plague player what the Enchantress Creature type is (well perhaps the Judge is, if asked).
You have, at any time in a tournament, and for whatever reason outside of stalling, the right to call the judge and ask to consult the Oracle wording for any card you want.

For more clarification on how this operates, open a thread in CI&R. But to roughly sum up, you can't let your opponent screw up unless he doesn't say anything and just calls a non-Human, non-Druid, existing creature type (in which case you just say "OK" and, if an Enchantress is already in play, proceed to tell him how he screwed up).

DalkonCledwin

11-15-2008, 05:08 PM

You have, at any time in a tournament, and for whatever reason outside of stalling, the right to call the judge and ask to consult the Oracle wording for any card you want.

For more clarification on how this operates, open a thread in CI&R. But to roughly sum up, you can't let your opponent screw up unless he doesn't say anything and just calls a non-Human, non-Druid, existing creature type (in which case you just say "OK" and, if an Enchantress is already in play, proceed to tell him how he screwed up).

indeed, that last part is exactly what I mean by not telling him how he screwed up until after he screws up... you should never tell an opponent how to win the game....

Captain Hammer

11-16-2008, 01:41 AM

ChillerKiller0815

11-16-2008, 06:06 AM

Hi Guys,
I wasn´t trying to start a discussion about some stupid creature type erratas rather then the usefulness of E. Plague in certain matchups!

So lets please focus on the sideboard- and not on “How to cheat on an opponent”-discussion.

So assuming you know to name the creature type “ Human” or “Druid” vs. Solitaire we are at the same point of the discussion. Please go on from here…………….

Is there a better Sideboard strategy then E.Plague + LotV+ Choke+Jitte?
Viable cards:
Krosan Grip, Seal, Deed, Faerie Macabre, Extirpate, Reanimate, Infest, Diabolic Edict, Sriekmaw, ……
Please discuss the pros and cons of these cards and how a sideboard would look like if you choose to use a different strategy then the standard sideboard configuration.

thx

DalkonCledwin

11-16-2008, 11:35 AM

Is there a better Sideboard strategy then E.Plague + LotV+ Choke+Jitte?
Viable cards:
Krosan Grip, Seal, Deed, Faerie Macabre, Extirpate, Reanimate, Infest, Diabolic Edict, Sriekmaw, ……
Please discuss the pros and cons of these cards and how a sideboard would look like if you choose to use a different strategy then the standard sideboard configuration.

thx

Well if your running Seal of Primordium main deck, I don't see a reason to run Krosan Grip in the sideboard as it is redundant.

Infest, Diabolic Edict, and Shriekmaw all have a better option in Snuff Out... however if you expect to encounter alot of mirror matches, I would almost certainly advise either main decking or sideboarding Rend Flesh instead of Snuff Out as that can remove threats that are black just as easily as threats that are any other color. The only advantage that Diabolic Edict offers is that it can remove threats with shroud.

Leyline of the Void is significantly better than Faerie Macabre. However Extirpate might be an interesting choice for either the main deck or the sideboard, I am not really sold on it though, as it is really a narrow card.

Deed is actually an interesting idea. Reanimate is also an interesting idea. I like both of these latter two ideas.

troopatroop

11-16-2008, 02:30 PM

Well if your running Seal of Primordium main deck, I don't see a reason to run Krosan Grip in the sideboard as it is redundant.

Infest, Diabolic Edict, and Shriekmaw all have a better option in Snuff Out... however if you expect to encounter alot of mirror matches, I would almost certainly advise either main decking or sideboarding Rend Flesh instead of Snuff Out as that can remove threats that are black just as easily as threats that are any other color. The only advantage that Diabolic Edict offers is that it can remove threats with shroud.

Leyline of the Void is significantly better than Faerie Macabre. However Extirpate might be an interesting choice for either the main deck or the sideboard, I am not really sold on it though, as it is really a narrow card.

Deed is actually an interesting idea. Reanimate is also an interesting idea. I like both of these latter two ideas.

I would rather play Diabolic Edict over Rend Flesh. Mongoose is actually a pretty big problem for the deck, and a big reason I'm boarding removal is for the Thresh matchup, and I'd like to be able to hit all their creatures. Especially Mystic Enforcer.

DalkonCledwin

11-16-2008, 05:17 PM

I would rather play Diabolic Edict over Rend Flesh. Mongoose is actually a pretty big problem for the deck, and a big reason I'm boarding removal is for the Thresh matchup, and I'd like to be able to hit all their creatures. Especially Mystic Enforcer.

this is why I actually side board things like Dystopia and Perish personally....

Blackened

11-16-2008, 07:53 PM

I played at my locals yesterday with a standard Eva Green list. The first tournament didn't go too well, I had a lots of problems with UBg threshold. I personally think Diabolic Edict is an excellent sideboard choice against it. I can use my large suite of spot removal on their Goyfs and Bobs and save the Edicts for Mongooses.

Here's the list I've changed up to for my metagame (lots of Goblins, Faerie Stompy variants, Burn, and blue in general):

4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snuff Out
3 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
3 Darkheart Sliver

My sideboard is geared more towards aggro in forms of both Goblins and Burn. It does have some tricks for Nimble Mongoose and decks that intend on protecting their Engineered Explosives, Deeds, Vials, Moxen, etc. I never found the Seal to be too good with the lack of Standstill in my area, so I prefer the unaffected targeted artifact/enchantment removal in the form of Krosan Grip.

kabal

11-16-2008, 08:43 PM

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
3 Darkheart Sliver

My sideboard is geared more towards aggro in forms of both Goblins and Burn.

Wouldn't Jitte be better than Darkheart Sliver in the burn and other random aggro MUs?

yankeedave

11-17-2008, 05:20 AM

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
3 Darkheart Sliver

My sideboard is geared more towards aggro in forms of both Goblins and Burn. It does have some tricks for Nimble Mongoose and decks that intend on protecting their Engineered Explosives, Deeds, Vials, Moxen, etc. I never found the Seal to be too good with the lack of Standstill in my area, so I prefer the unaffected targeted artifact/enchantment removal in the form of Krosan Grip.

I quite like this SB, I would make only a couple of changes, due to my meta:

I would take out the Darkheart Sliver for Jitte as I think it is stronger and can act as spot removal as well.

I also still run Seal of Primordium maindeck and no one really plays stifle or other things similar in my meta, so I can drop Krosan Grip for Pithing Needle. I also see some tribal decks either ported from Type 2 or extended, so E.Plague still has a place.

I like Edict to deal with those troublesome mongeese and other little nasties! I think my new SB will look something like:

3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pithing Needle

Blackened

11-17-2008, 02:39 PM

Jitte probably would be better. I still need to do a lot of testing with the sideboard.

Forbiddian

11-17-2008, 10:26 PM

Aside from being completely offtopic.

I have to say. Why be a rules nazi? Is there really any satisfaction to be had in winning by basically screwing over your opponent. I would much rather lose fairly than win unfairly. At the end of the day, magic is just a game.

It was Wizards that screwed by printing Enchantress on the freaking card as the card type and then errating it to be a Human Druid even though there was no justification for doing so. Let me repeat that, it was WIZARD's screw up. Not your opponents. Letting your opponent call an illegal creature type though you know it doesn't exist seems more than shady to say the least. At the end of the day though, I guess it's your decision. You can either force your opponent to lose a game because of a screw up on Wizards part, or you can treat Magic as a game, not to be taken so seriously, and allow that same moral core of you that tells you not to lie or mislead people and apply that while playing the game as well.

I do think though, that Wizards should address this issue. There is no indication or even reason for people to suspect that Enchantress is not a creature type. And don't say it's their fault for not knowing the updated nonsensible creature type errata because there are literally about a thousand of them. I guarentee that you don't know all of the erratas either, I don't care who you are.

My solution. Since Wizards errated the creature type Enchantress to mean Druid, they should have that errata apply universally. Any instance of the creature type Enchantress in the course of a game should automatically mean Druid. Thus when a person names the creature type Enchantress, they are infact naming Druid. That would be the sensible way to do errata. If you completely replace one term with another term, have that replacement applied in all game conditions. But alas, Wizards is anything but sensible.

They DID do that. All Enchantresses are Human Druids now. Lol, that's embarrassing, but check the errata before you make some assumptions and blame Wizards. The errata was dumb, but they tried to fix it as best as possible.

Anyway, it was bringing up that you should check the oracle references with a judge when sticking an Eplague into play.

Next:
Well if your running Seal of Primordium main deck, I don't see a reason to run Krosan Grip in the sideboard as it is redundant.

Seal of Primordium is quite vulnerable to both Pithing Needle and Trickbind/Stifle, and you can't resolve one post-Counterbalance. If one of the main targets of Seal is Counterbalance, it's worth looking into supplementing that with Krosan Grip as well. Also, Seal doesn't give Deed or EE or Top a dirt nap.

The deck is reasonably resistant to Countertop, but I'm always edgy going against Counterbalance matches knowing that I can't answer Countertop.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 03:10 AM

Thoughts on Black Knight??

Idk about everyone else's meta, but mine consists of Smother, Snuff Out, or STP being the targeted removal, and usually STP being chosen over the rest.

And Black Knight is sexy with a Jitte thrown on it too.

Arsenal

11-20-2008, 09:13 AM

retic720

11-20-2008, 12:35 PM

sorry for the dumb question....but why is this BG variant called "Eva Green"? Named after the deck's "original user"? named after a magic player's hot girlfriend/wife/daughter/niece? his mother/sister/aunt who had a big impact in his life?

Just curious...coz I don't see the relationship with a chick's name with an angry green beast who can pick fights with a whole bunch of critters in the MTG world and win...

yankeedave

11-20-2008, 12:41 PM

It is a black suicide deck with a green splash. Eva Green was the Bond Girl in Casino Royale and commits suicide at the end of the movie. Hot girl + suicide + geeks = Eva Green Deck!

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 03:23 PM

I don't agree on running BB 2/* guys in the first place, but if you're going to be running them, I'd run Stromgald Crusader over any of the other BB 2/* guys. Flying > First Strike when you're trying to kill your opponent.

Idk i was thinking about him, but he is too mana intensive, and i already have shade as a four of so it just makes him seem weak. This is also a metagame call.

nitewolf9

11-20-2008, 03:29 PM

What are you trying to replace with black knight? A 2/2 first striker, immune to swords or not, does not seem like a threat in this format.

Blackened

11-20-2008, 04:10 PM

There's just no space in the deck for him. The deck needs the cheap, powerful beaters that are in it. Adding more critters takes away from the control factor and replacing any of the current ones would be a sin. By the way, just about any creature is good with a Jitte.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:15 PM

What are you trying to replace with black knight? A 2/2 first striker, immune to swords or not, does not seem like a threat in this format.

I play in a pretty much zoo/random aggro meta so the first strike really helps, and i've just always been a fan. I've tested wretched anurid, lost too much life, i've tested negator and gotten bolted, i've tested the crusader, but he just kinda sat there bc i was spending my mana on other things.

I just have like 4 open slots and need a dude to fill the spot.

And suggestions?

nitewolf9

11-20-2008, 04:19 PM

What are you trying to replace with black knight?

?

Also, against zoo, what does black knight actually beat in combat?

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:22 PM

?

Also, against zoo, what does black knight actually beat in combat?

He doesnt really beat anything. He blocks FOD all day, Watchwolf all day. And against random mono white aggro(which my meta has alot of) decks it gives them trouble too.

I'm not really trying to replace anything, i just need suggestions for my 4 open slots i have left.

troopatroop

11-20-2008, 04:24 PM

He doesnt really beat anything. He blocks FOD all day, Watchwolf all day. And against random mono white aggro(which my meta has alot of) decks it gives them trouble too.

I'm not really trying to replace anything, i just need suggestions for my 4 open slots i have left.

You have 4 open slots? Elaborate on what you cut then.

throst54

11-20-2008, 04:26 PM

Anything thats white :p

I dont think Black Knight belongs here, when i run him i prefer to be also running Funeral Charm w/ him. That card belongs here even less.

He just doesnt affect the board enough.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:28 PM

You have 4 open slots? Elaborate on what you cut then.

Ok my list is.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hippie

4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm To Tourach

Then four random open mainboard slots.

klaus

11-20-2008, 04:40 PM

Ok my list is.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hippie
4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm To Tourach
Then four random open mainboard slots.

This one's easy: Add 1 Swamp, 2 Seals of Primoridium and 1 Ashenmoor Gouger/Jitte/Duress/whatevar.
Also: 4 Bayous with a total of 4 green mana symbols in your main?..I think everyone has agreed on 3 Bayous with up to 7G spells in the MD (4Goyf+3Seal).

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:42 PM

This one's easy: Add 1 Swamp, 2 Seals of Primoridium and 1 Ashenmoor Gouger/Jitte/Duress/whatevar.

I think i'll go 2 Jitte and 2 Seal of Primoridium.

Problem Solved :D:laugh:

troopatroop

11-20-2008, 04:42 PM

Ok my list is.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hippie

4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm To Tourach

Then four random open mainboard slots.

You cut a land first and foremost, which doesn't make much sense to me. I trust the testing done by the founders of the deck and my own that the 21st land is really good. Note the fact that you're playing Wasteland and how it can only contribute to casting Hyppie, Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker. 1 Swamp 1 Wasteland hands are really sketchy. You have to get to BB on turn two and cutting a land for no reason is fishy.

Why did you cut the Seal? There is some elegance in being able to actually answer topdecked bombs, because they will happen. If you didn't like Seal of Primordium then try Krosan Grip. You shouldn't just cut the card on the basis that it could be dead, because it rarely will be, and it will often win you the game.

I think i'll go 2 Jitte and 2 Seal of Primoridium.

Problem Solved :D:laugh:

Note the first page and why Jitte is bad in the maindeck. Making yourself that vulnerable to removal from control decks isn't wise. You're playing a tempo deck, and anything that could negatively effect that fundamental strategy is less than optimal. That being said, it's an amazing card against many decks. If you think it would be good in your metagame, play 3 in the board and board them in all the time. It keeps the card unexpected and ensure that you're only playing the card in the right matchups.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:45 PM

You cut a land first and foremost, which doesn't make much sense to me. I trust the testing done by the founders of the deck and my own that the 21st land is really good. Note the fact that you're playing Wasteland and how it can only contribute to casting Hyppie, Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker. 1 Swamp 1 Wasteland hands are really sketchy. You have to get to BB on turn two and cutting a land for no reason is fishy.

Why did you cut the Seal? There is some elegance in being able to actually answer topdecked bombs, because they will happen. If you didn't like Seal of Primordium then try Krosan Grip. You shouldn't just cut the card on the basis that it could be dead, because it rarely will be, and it will often win you the game.

I never really looked at the "official" list or whatever. I just got done to the shop and wanted to throw Eva Green together from what i remembered and that's what i got.

So i'll add another Swamp, 2 Seals, and a Jitte.

klaus

11-20-2008, 04:46 PM

I never really looked at the "official" list or whatever. I just got done to the shop and wanted to throw Eva Green together from what i remembered and that's what i got.
So i'll add another Swamp, 2 Seals, and a Jitte.

Sounds like a plan to me! :laugh:

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 04:47 PM

Sounds like a plan to me! :laugh:

Does this constitute a high five or some other manly action like a hug? :laugh:

Blackened

11-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-20-2008, 07:44 PM

I personally run into an assload of Goblins and Threshold decks that don't utilize artifacts or enchantments too much; most of the artifacts or enchantments I see can be activated in response to me destroying it, so Seal is just a no go for me. I've found that replacing the three slots for Seal with Smother is much more ideal for an aggro heavy metagame. I much prefer Krosan Grip as an alternative as well; it has the surprise factor and has split second, which are a humongous help.

Yeah i'll prolly test krosan grip before the seal. It just seems better. It's so helpful with everything. Worse case scenario you nail a mishra's factory or something with it. Hey i mean, you can hit standstill too, oh wait... :tongue:

Blackened

11-20-2008, 07:51 PM

Surprisingly there isn't enough Standstill in my metagame for that to be a factor. But oh, how I wish Standstill wasn't triggered.

darkalucard

11-20-2008, 10:49 PM

I don't see how you would need Seal vs. Landstill anyways since that is a pretty favorable match-up for you.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-21-2008, 02:42 AM

I don't see how you would need Seal vs. Landstill anyways since that is a pretty favorable match-up for you.

Yeah i know i was just joking around bc i've had people try and Krosan Grip my Standstill a few times. It makes me lol.:laugh:

klaus

11-21-2008, 05:49 AM

I personally run into an assload of Goblins and Threshold decks that don't utilize artifacts or enchantments too much
With Eva's LD plan, it can be a game-breaking move to destroy a Vial.
Against Threshold, CB, B2B, Oblivion Ring are worthy targets, but not all builds run those.

I don't see how you would need Seal vs. Landstill anyways since that is a pretty favorable match-up for you.
Having outs to Humility G1 and being able to answer a possible Turn2 Standstill preemptively is a huge plus.
Also, I don't mind being able to get rid of other stuff like CoW, EE and Deed.
Being a LS player myself, I must say the MU is only very slightly favorable for the Eva Green player - and this is mostly due to Chokes. That fact makes G1s more decisive in consequence - keep in mind you are likely to be going to time against LS G3, no matter what you're playing.

Blackened

11-21-2008, 02:53 PM

Vial in my opinion isn't worth keeping Grips/Seals in against Goblins. Though the deck does utilize some LD pieces, it usually isn't enough to slow them down. But I do understand there are chances it will. I find keeping Plagues/Deeds in help a lot more than destroying their Vial.

nitewolf9

11-21-2008, 03:33 PM

Seal is excellent game 1 against goblins, as that deck is very mana hungry. It also makes your tarmogoyfs enormous to blow up one of their vials (more of a bonus but it has been relevant while racing). There are only 4 targets for them, but those 4 targets are one of the best tools goblins has against you. Post board they come out with sinkholes because the LD plan is inferior to the "you lose to engineered plague" plan.

I'm not sure if the Goblins matchup is where you want to be looking for an argument against seal though. You should be pretty favored already, whatever you wind up running in that slot. I would never board pernicious deed in against goblins (I wouldn't have it in my sideboard to begin with, but if I did I wouldn't bring it in here).

I duno, I will grant that maybe something else in the seal slot could be good if you have a very narrow, defined metagame and some bomb would be better in its spot (like jitte in a very aggro meta with almost no control present), but that card has been nothing but awesome whenever I play this deck.

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:39 PM

I'm for no just testing out the Deeds, but the Plagues are a definite include. You're right though, the matchup is easy as is, but there's nothing wrong with guaranteeing it by laying a Plague on the table.

Aus-Rotten

12-21-2008, 12:54 AM

How easy is it to hate Eva Green out of a metagame?

nitewolf9

12-21-2008, 01:22 AM

How easy is it to hate Eva Green out of a metagame?

Here you go, just play this:

4 diabolic edict
2 smother
2 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divning top

3 counterbalance
4 daze
4 force of will
4 divert

4 dodecapod
4 tombstalker

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
1 watery grave
4 island
1 swamp

DalkonCledwin

12-21-2008, 08:00 PM

Here you go, just play this:

4 diabolic edict
2 smother
2 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divning top

3 counterbalance
4 daze
4 force of will
4 divert

4 dodecapod
4 tombstalker

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
1 watery grave
4 island
1 swamp

hmmm... I don't really like that decks chances against Eva Green. Sure, it looks good on paper, but the deck relies solely on not having its Dodecapod, or Vedalken Shackles hit by a Krosan Grip, and in turn losing tempo due to not having enough advantage to take the game away.

URABAHN

12-21-2008, 08:06 PM

hmmm... I don't really like that decks chances against Eva Green. Sure, it looks good on paper, but the deck relies solely on not having its Dodecapod, or Vedalken Shackles hit by a Krosan Grip, and in turn losing tempo due to not having enough advantage to take the game away.

I was just talking to nitewolf about this last night, Misdirection on Hymn is bad for just about any suicide strategy and that's a 3 for 2. Imagine a 3 for 1 in the form of Divert. Smother and Edict are more than sufficient to take out Eva's creatures and Shackles are a headache for Eva Green. With that being said, I wouldn't play a deck that takes Eva Green to the woodshed without knowing how it does against every other deck in the format.

nitewolf9

12-21-2008, 08:30 PM

Just for the record that deck was supposed to be a joke (rather obviously due to dodecapod...). But yes, divert seems very good against suicide.

DalkonCledwin

12-21-2008, 08:34 PM

Just for the record that deck was supposed to be a joke (rather obviously due to dodecapod...). But yes, divert seems very good against suicide.

yeah, I agree, Divert, and Misdirection (as well as all similarly worded spells) would be incredible against any Suicide deck. However I don't know of too many decks that actually run them.

On a flip side I agree with Urabahn in his statement that I wouldn't play the "joke deck" without knowing how it does against all other decks in the format aside from Suicide decks.

Nihil Credo

12-21-2008, 09:36 PM

I was thinking about it and I suspect that a properly built Faeries deck should trump the shit out of Eva Green or any Suicide variant, for that matter. Ancestral Visions is about as good recovery from discard as can be found, in addition to the usual protection provided by Top and Brainstorm. Counterbalance and Bitterblossom put stress on Seal of Primordium's problem-solving ability (and Scion can protect the game-breaking Bitterblossom). Hypnotic Specter should never connect unless Ritualed on turn 1, and even then only once or twice. Sowers of Temptations are nasty against Eva Green's fatties, and finally the manabase can be quite resilient if you're willing to forgo tricks like Riptide Laboratory (or even Mutavault), especially if you also use Chrome Moxes.

Just a 3 AM idea. I did a few two-fisted, preboard games on MWS and it came out 4-2 in favour of Faeries, but I'm not really trusting my results at this time in the night.

Edit: Morning after, I remember that Eva Green usually runs Plagues in the SB. That would need addressing, I guess.

DalkonCledwin

12-21-2008, 10:31 PM

I was thinking about it and I suspect that a properly built Faeries deck should trump the shit out of Eva Green or any Suicide variant, for that matter. Ancestral Visions is about as good recovery from discard as can be found, in addition to the usual protection provided by Top and Brainstorm. Counterbalance and Bitterblossom put stress on Seal of Primordium's problem-solving ability (and Scion can protect the game-breaking Bitterblossom). Hypnotic Specter should never connect unless Ritualed on turn 1, and even then only once or twice. Sowers of Temptations are nasty against Eva Green's fatties, and finally the manabase can be quite resilient if you're willing to forgo tricks like Riptide Laboratory (or even Mutavault), especially if you also use Chrome Moxes.

Just a 3 AM idea. I did a few two-fisted, preboard games on MWS and it came out 4-2 in favour of Faeries, but I'm not really trusting my results at this time in the night.

hmm.... a well built Eva Green deck, should be capable of dealing with faeries quite easily... The build I am planning to play with for example is quite capable of taking out Bitterblossom tokens even with Scion of Oona in play, not to mention being capable of more or less shutting down Counterbalance. Well, Faeries may be a more difficult match up, but it certainly isn't unwinnable. It all depends on the build, and the player of the Eva Green deck in question.

Captain Hammer

01-06-2009, 07:38 AM

I asked about Card Advantage in Black Aggro - Phyrexian Arena Vs. The Alternatives elsewhere, but not here.

I want to play a card in my eva green variant (it's not playing Hyppe at the moment) that offers some form of card advantage.

I wanted to share my opinions on the different options and get your take on each of them.

And I wanted you to share any black card advantage sources that I may have missed.

a.) Hymn to Tourach

- No discussion of card advantage in black would be complete without mentioning this card. Not only is it pure card advantage. But it can easily screw over your opponents game plan and first several turns, and given it's speed, it provides one of blacks strongest tools against the combo matchup. In short, if you can support BB casting cost, there is really no reason not to play it, it's that good.

b.) Skeletal Scrying

- This is a very strong card that would rank high on the list usually mainly just because if the fast aggro plan works and you have an empty board in the midgame, this card would singlehandedly help you recover. But as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to go into this with the assumption that any aggressive black aggro build is already playing 4 Tombstalker. Given this stipulation, I don't think the dyssnergy between the two is justifiable when there are so many alternatives.

c.) Night's Whispers

- A mini undercosted Skeletal Scrying without the aforementioned drawback. The only real concern regarding this card is that drawing just two cards doesn't seem like an awful lot. Spending two mana for +1 card advantage doesn't seem super efficient for an aggressive deck. But then again, it's all that Predict and a 3 casting cost Mulldrifter offer, and both those see play. It's not even that far off from what Standstill offers, so I think it would rank pretty high.

d.) Hypnotic Specter

- I think that the faster and faster that legacy becomes, and the more and more efficent that creatures become, the less powerful this card seems. Off of a turn one ritual, Hippie is absolutely fierce. But without a ritual handy, it won't hit the opponent till turn 4, and in legacy, plenty of decks won't have anything worthwhile left in their hand by then. Where as cards like Phyrexian Arena offer lategame staying power, this primarily offers early game disruption, which would be fine, were it not for the high casting cost.

e.) Pernicious Deed

- Not exactly monoblack. But given that pretty much every black aggro variant is splashing green already to play Goyfs, I thought that this too is worth a mention. Then again, it creates dissnyergy with the low casting cost Goyf that were the reason for splashing green in the first place. And Deed is probably a bit too mana intensive for any black aggro deck.

f.) Dark Confidant

- Again, no discussion of card advantage in black would be complete without mentioning Confidant. But then again, given the earlier stipulation, that the theoretical black aggro deck being discussed is playing 4 Snuff Out and 4 Tombstalker, the potential life loss from Confidant approaches dangerous levels. Throw in the 4 Thoughtseize and some fetchlands, and the life loss becomes unacceptable in my humble opinion.

b.) Phyrexian Arena

- This is a card that is almost never considered in Black Aggro. But I think that's a mistake. Yes, it's not quite as cheap as Confidant, but the lifeloss it provides is far more tolerable in a build with Tombstalker and Snuff Out, giving the card significant midgame and lategame staying power. It gives Rituals drawn after the first few turns, something to cast with all that mana. And being an enchantment, the card is also much harder to get rid of than Dark Confidant, and pumps Goyf if it is.

My Final Rankings in the Current Environment For An Aggressive Black Deck playing Tombstalker and Snuff Out...

1.) Hymn to Tourach
2/3.) Night's Whisper (can't decide if this is better than P. Arena)
3/2.) Phyrexian Arena (can't decide if this is better than Night's Whisper)
4.) Hypnotic Specter - Ranked low for the reasons mentioned above.
5.) Dark Confidant - Ranked low simply due to unacceptable lifeloss in a build with 4 Tombstalker and 4 Snuff Out.
6.) Pernicious Deed - Ranked low because of the need for a high mana investment in an aggressive deck, combined with the dysnergy with Goyf.
7.) Skeletal Scrying - Ranked low because of having to salvage from the same yard that Tombstalker and Goyf already salvage from and being mana intensive pigeon holing it to be a purely lategame card.

How would you rank these seven cards in a theoretical build with 4 Snuff Out and 4 Tombstalkers? Are there any other good black card advantage engines that I missed?

rancOr_

01-06-2009, 04:25 PM

I'd play Phyrexian Arena over Night's Whisper.
It is much more consistent and hard to get rid off. If they dont destroy it,the CA will let you win the game. If you're playing mono black,u can easily support the BB. As for the rest of the list,if you were going to add something else, I suggest Hypnotic specter.

ChillerKiller0815

01-07-2009, 05:19 AM

Hi Captain Hammer,
as I am an Eva Green player I will give you an idea of how I see the CA question.

Hymn to Tourach:
It´s an auto include, agreed. It generates a +1 CA, agreed. But Hymn isn´t played for its ability to generate CA. It´s being played because it disrupts the opponent’s early gameplan and has the chance of stalling him if you hit something critical like Land number 2.

If you look at a lot of suicide list (here EVA GREEN) you will notice that Snuff Out is being played. To understand my following thoughts it is important to understand why Snuff Out see´s play. So the question is: What is the general strategy of Eva Green (Suicide)?
Eva Green wants to disrupt the opponent and force him into the mid- lategame by playing stuff like Thoughtseize (Duress), Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole. In order to be able to capitalize on that you need to drop quick massive threats that finish the game before the opponent can recover (Goyf, Shade, Stalker). So why does Snuff Out see play? Because it handles the first drops the opponent made and opens the way for your Critters without eating your early game resources you badly need for the critters or disruption.

Now if you keep this strategy in mind lets compare Phyrexian Arena and Hypnotic Specter:
If you play Dark Ritual + Arena: No threat, no disruption turn one and two (early game)
If you play Dark Ritual + Specter: A Threat, no disruption turn one but turn two + starting beat down.

If Arena is played turn three you will benefit on it turn 4, this is also true for the Specter. But by Turn three you should have played stuff like sinkhole, hymn or thoughtseize. Your opponent should still be stalled or way behind his normal gameplan. Now the Specter has the potential to keep up this situation for the rest of the game by ensuring that every more expensive card he would play will never see play. Whereas the Arena allows the opponent to recover from your disruption package. This means the Specter is sometimes enough to kill an opponent all by himself and there is a reason why people say : “Oh black, now comes the sick Ritual-Specter-Opening!”.
So basically the Arena offers the better CA, but doesn´t help your gameplan or general strategy at all.

Lets break it down to some matchups:
Combo: A first turn Specter is a good way of winning this matchup. Arena isn´t. This is based on the recurring free disruption while beating the same time.
Burn: Specter disrupts their spells draws a burn spell and carries a jitte. Arena cost life.
Control: These are the matchups we dominate, because this is where disruption shines. Arena doesn´t disrupt!
Aggro: Difficult matchups. At least Specter is a blocker that kills any gobbo (except Wort) and carries a jitte. Arena doesn´t.
To sum my thoughts up: Arena isn´t played because of its CA abilities but because of the lack of fitting the general gameplan. Suicide wins by disruption pared with fast beaters. Arena does nothing like that. Specter disrupts and is a small beater with evasion.  Specter >>> Arena

Hope this makes sense:wink:
ChillerKiller0815

ChillerKiller0815

01-07-2009, 03:06 PM

Hi guys I play a big tournament next weekend (50-120 People expected). I am playing Eva Green with MD Extirpate for Seals and a single reanimate for the Shade #4.

As always there will be plenty of Thresh, Painter, ANT, Gobbos

I am not sure how the SB should look like. This is where I need your suggestions. To give you some thoughts what is possible I will make some suggestions myself:

Cards Possible:

Leyline
Choke
Engineered Plague
Jitte
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Powder Keg
Gaeaé Blessing (1-of)
Seal of Primordium
Krosan Grip
Pernicious Deed
Relict of Protegenius
Faerie Macabre
Diabolic Edict

As for now I think my SB could look something like this:

A)
4x Leyline
3x Choke
3x Engineered Explosives (is useable as Plague or as Seal)
2x Krosan Grip (vs. Painter and stuff like Counterbalance or late Moat, Humility, O-Ring)
3x Jitte

B) Classic
4x Leyline
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
3x Jitte

C) Not using Leyline
2x Faerie Macabre / Relict of Protegenius
1x Extirpate
3x Choke
3x Grip/Seal
3x Pithing Needle (Aether Vial, Survival, Top, Shackles, Grindstone, Belcher,…)
3x Jitte

D)
4x Leyline
4x Choke
3x E. Explosives
2x K. Grip
2x Diabolic Edict

Help and thoughts appreciated

Thx

johanessen

01-07-2009, 05:42 PM

As you dont run any disenchant in MD you need some in SB.

About maindeck what about running 2 Extirpate 2 Reanimate instead of 3 and 1?

Then, SideBoard Cound Be...

3 Krosan Grip
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Choke
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Gaea's Blessing

ChillerKiller0815

01-08-2009, 10:00 AM

Hi guys,
i am going on a big turnament this weekend. i decided to play 3 Extirpates MD instead of 3xSeal of Primodium. Now I have to play some Seal/grips in the sideboard. I wondered if you guys think that the Leylines are now redundant and could be cutted from the SB if I put the 4th Extirpate in my SB? Is that enough grave hate?
Leyline was for:
Ichorid --> Ichorid, BfB
Loam --> LftL
SotF--> SotF, Squee, Genesis
Staxx--> Crucible

All of the cards can be dealed with Extirpate I think!

I mean ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is pretty fucked if you extirpate a mongoose or goyf since they often only play 8 creatures.--> Just a thought

PLZ share your idea

THX

humppa

02-06-2009, 04:29 AM

Are hypnotics really so good?

I found them usually "too slow", or "too small". Only few times they were useful - there was time and no defenders/stronger attackers.
I want to apologize, my sweet specter. In many latter games you work wonderful in Eva green. No one want to see you on the board, many times you won me "drag and go" latter game and many time you clear a way for my bigger beaters.
You have 4 slot in my deck without any doubts!
:-)

Another problem with Eva green - I play 3x Seal in MD, but it's not enough. Many decks in my metagame play Needles, so it is very easy for them to switch my seal off.
I'm looking for Pernicious Deed and/or Krosan grip to SB, but I can't deside with card from SB put away. LotV, EPlague, Choke and Jittes are there right now. Any suggestions? What enchantment/artefact hate do you play?

Unknown2

02-07-2009, 12:22 AM

i wouldn't run the jitte in the board, or at all for that matter

The thing is with that, is you don't want to lose tempo by equipping it to a creature that might get lost to removal.

rancOr_

02-12-2009, 05:12 AM

This is the list I'm running now,and I think its close to optimal,but there are still some spots that might be replaced.

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
3 snuff out
2 reanimate
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Polluted delta
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
6 Swamp

As for the SB I've opted for this:
2 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke

Pretty standard,but the seals/reanimate/sb can be discussed.
Any ideas,thoughts?

Unknown2

02-12-2009, 12:23 PM

See, the thing about reanimate is that it's a late game card. This deck hates the late game against most decks, so the idea is to beat and disrupt as early as possible and just keep throwing threats out. Those 2 reanimate should be another threat or more disruption (i've been toying with nyxathid, which isn't bad if he comes out turn 3+), But then again, I'm a player who likes to race, I don't even play seal of primordium, I play 1 single diabolic edict, in case I'm facing an early mongoose or something.

Just my 2 cents going in here, but I could be wrong

Also, my sideboard is:

3 Choke (Can definitely be replaced, as from my testing, we usually beat anything blue anyway, so this can be something like Extirpate or something else.
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grips
----

The jittes are definitely good against aggro, but the thing is, your creatures already outweigh them, such as tarmo and tombstalker, and shade basically anytime past turn 3/4, If anything they'd be good against decks that plague is already helping in.

Mesercus

02-12-2009, 05:52 PM

Reanimate is really good and could be fast too.
Discard a tarmo or kill it while you're beating (with snuff out) and reanimate it works fine =).

Clark Kant

02-13-2009, 02:02 AM

I agree with you on both Reanimate and Edict. Both are very strong cards. Creatures have gotten a lot better, and more decks are playing them.

Not a huge fan of Seal of Clensing

So did anyone try Nyxathid yet? It seems like it could be a strong mid/late game card.

If I were to play this deck, I would probably try this...

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nyxathid

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole

4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate
2 Diabolic Edict/Smother/Blackmail

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted delta
4 Bloodstained mire
6 Swamp
3 Bayou

I wish I could think of some discard comparable in powerlevel to Hymn or capable of hitting creatures like Thoughtseize. They would be solid in the Edict's slot. Esp with Nyxathid and Reanimate.

I think Blackmail would be really interesting to try in Edict's slot.

Early game, your opponents will often show you lands, not wanting to reveal their hand and not realizing that you're holding a hand with both Sinkhole and Wasteland in it as well.

And midgame, Blackmail is a Thoughtseize that doesn't cost you life, and that also hits lands.

Unknown2

02-13-2009, 02:47 AM

Hm, I haven't seen this Blackmail card before, but I like it, if only because of Nyxathid.

Simply because, all good players with hold lands in order to decrease Nyxathid late game, and thoughtseizes won't hit these lands, blackmail seems good in this situation.

Also, it's yet another first turn play also, even if it's not that effective.

I shall try it out...

I still say you should run it in the reanimate slot

Edit: I didn't realize Reanimate was from your opponent's graveyard also, lol, oops

And why aren't you running Shade?

Also, what are people's opinion on maybe even 1 maindeck Stillmoon Cavalier, with the inclusion of STP 5-8?

Clark Kant

02-13-2009, 03:40 AM

Edit: I didn't realize Reanimate was from your opponent's graveyard also, lol, oops

:laugh: LOL indeed.

Now that makes sense as to why you thought Reanimate was a late game card.

Yeah it gets a lot better when you can use it on your opponent's creatures after a first turn Thoughseize or Snuff Out.

I never really liked Shade, or Stillmoon Cavalier. Neither card deals a lot of damage until it was way too far into the game. You don't have a lot of spare mana to pump them until mid-late game.

That's why I want to try Nyxathid.

Arohtar

02-13-2009, 03:56 AM

I've been testing Nyxathid lately and I'm very happy with the results.

Current list:

4x Tombstalker
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Nyxhatid

4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Snuff Out
4x Funeral Charm

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Swamp
4x Bayou
1x Tomb of Urami

Three is the correct number for Nyx because you don't want to see him until mid-game.

Charm is great in combination with Nyx and it has become more useful now that a lot of Threshold players run Noble Hierarch in my meta.

Actually I'm not very sure about Tomb of Urami...

Unknown2

02-13-2009, 04:03 AM

Hmmm....as for Shade, I like throwing down a turn shade that can deal 5 damage turn 3. Cavalier is the same, but can fly, etc.

As for funeral charm, I'm not sold on it. It helps in certain situations, but there is better out there, although alongside Nyxathid, it seems alright. I will test with it

Nyxathid is a great creature in my opinion. I just don't like it as a 3-of, i like it as a 2-of to save room for creature removal

I will test with reanimate starting tomorrow.

As for Tomb of Urami, how's that working out for you (i realize you say you're not sure about it, but go into detail)

I realize after seeing your decklists, I enjoy having threats a lot more than most

I am currently running 16 creatures, lol

Arohtar

02-13-2009, 04:26 AM

Well I've never activated Tomb of Urami so for now is like a pain-swamp :tongue:

But something inside me tells me that it could be useful as a plan B someday!!! :laugh:

I think you should try Funeral Charm. It's so versatile... As I said before instant discard works fine with Nyx and is not bad in a top-deck-war as you can make your oponnent discard after his draw step. You can kill Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Vendilion, Lackey, Bird, Cursecatcher...

Unknown2

02-13-2009, 04:29 AM

Anyway, yeah, I'm going to try it as a 2-of for now. I don't really think it deserves 4 slots.

BTW, why don't you like Shade? You are -1 creature from usual builds, it makes for a sad Unknown2 :(

Arohtar

02-13-2009, 04:51 AM

Noble Hierarch is 0/1 with Exalted.

Well of course I like Shade but actually I think that Nyx is better in my list. The new creature is not just anotherbigguy, most times it makes your opponents to change their game-plan because they keep cards in hand that otherwise they could have played, that makes your Hymns To Tourach better in mid-late game and usually those cards are lands and that makes your Sinkholes better in mid-late game too.

IMO Nyx just fits well with the deck but you don't want to see him early so 4x is not optimal for me. Maybe you could try 3x Nyx + 1x Shade but the fact is that you don't want to see Shade in the early game either...

Unknown2

02-13-2009, 04:56 AM

I completely agree 100%, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

As much as you don't want to see it, i'd -1 charm +1 Shade anyway, because as nice as the charm is, it's not something you want to see all the time.

He can, on turn 3, potentially swing for 5 damage.

and definitely take that tomb out, hah.

Reanimate seems to be fun against all the reanimator decks running around since protenigous (sp?) came out, lol.

nitewolf9

02-13-2009, 10:35 AM

Reanimate seems to be fun against all the reanimator decks running around since protenigous (sp?) came out, lol.

You might want to read Progenitus. Reanimating him doesn't seem like a possibility...

Unknown2

02-13-2009, 10:44 AM

I realized it after i posted, but I was too exhausted to go fix it to another creature.

Ziilot

02-14-2009, 06:46 AM

DukeDemonKn1ght

02-14-2009, 07:06 AM

How is Nyxathid better than for example Phyrexian Negator (which is shitty btw.)? Three mana for creature that doesn't have any relevant abilities and is like 4/4 or 5/5 all the time :). Not flaming, just wondering..

Pretty sure Nyxathid is better because his drawback is not nearly as severe. That being said, I don't think Eva Green is the right deck for him, y'all don't really run an abundance of discard, so I think his power would be too reliant on what deck your opponent is playing. Especially because y'all run land destruction, which has the tendency to clog peoples' hands up with excess spells they can't play, thus weakening my boy Nyxie.

*My verdict:
Nyxathid = strong card
Nyxathid played in Eva Green = horrible lack of synergy

...I don't play this deck, but I feel like I understand its basic strategy, and Nyxathid just doesn't fit in anywhere.

Esper3k

02-14-2009, 10:47 AM

I love Eva Green, but I also believe Nyxathid doesn't truly belong in the deck.

The LD vs Discard route that DukeDemonKn1ght makes is one that I agree with. LD keeps people from playing spells, which means more cards in hand, which means smaller Nyxathids.

Also, for me, the 3 CC of Nyxathid has been a problem for me. In general, people using Nyxathid in Eva Green tend to replace the Nantuko Shades with it. While I know a lot of people don't like Shades as much anymore, I really like the 2 mana cost of the Shade as it allows you to do stuff like T1: Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Shade. The Shades give you something else other than Hymn to Tourach that you can cast off a T1 Dark Ritual + Thoughtseize.

Nyxathid is also terrible off of a T1 Dark Ritual, which is another lack of synergy with the way Eva Green wants to drop its hand as fast as possible.

I think Nyxathid is a great card with a lot of potential. I just think Eva Green is the wrong deck for it. To me, I think it's best off in a deck with heavy discard elements like maybe a heavy discard variant of DeadGuy Ale.

Unknown2

02-14-2009, 11:18 AM

Nyxathid has been slightly underwhelming for me. Most of the time he's a 3/3 for 3cc, which isn't too bad, but definitely not what we all wanted him to be.

As for alternatives, what do you guys suggest?

I have shades, stalker, tarmo and hyppie as 4ofs, but i'm wanting to play 1 or 2 more creatures.

SuperBean

02-14-2009, 03:10 PM

A buddy of mine is using this as his creature suite in Eva Green.

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tombstalker
3x Quirian Dryad
3x Tarmogoyf

Clark Kant

02-14-2009, 04:46 PM

Quirion Dryad looks interesting in the deck. Unlike Shade, you can continue to use your mana to play out the rest of your cards while Dryad gets bigger on it's own. And every creature in the deck is a must kill. So if Dryad eats it to removal, your opponent will wish they saved that removal for any of your other creatures as well. It might be worth trying as a 2 of taking some of the slots given to Shade. By only playing 2 Shade, you ensure that you mainly only see it in the midlate game, which lets face it is the only time that Shade is worthwhile anyways.

As for Confidant...

Dark Confidant simply can not be played in a deck that plays 4 Tombstalker AND 4 Snuff Out.

I mean...
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tombstalker
4 Snuff Out
..is just absurdly bad synergy.

And both Snuff Out and Tombstalker are very powerful staples in this deck. So cutting either for Confidant is a no go. Espically considering that Red Death established that Dark Confidant isn't worth playing even before Snuff Out became a staple or Tombstalker was even printed.

nitewolf9

02-14-2009, 04:52 PM

I don't think dryad would work very well in this deck, especially not as a 2 of. That is a creature you want to see early if at all, as it is a pretty horrible top deck. Especially in Eva Green, where you are living off the top of your library in the mid game. Also, you generally end up disrupting the opponent early, and then dropping a creature. This plan does not seem to work well with dryad.

If you want something that gets big as the game progresses just play shade. That guy is really good. I don't know why people don't want to run the full 4 shades, he punches through opposing tarmogoyfs just fine. Especially now as the goblins matchup is much less common.

Clark Kant

02-14-2009, 05:09 PM

Yeah, you're right about Dryad. He owns if played early but is crap in the late game.

The main problem that I have with Nantuko Shade is that he sucks up all your mana.

The first six turns of the game, I have cards that I want and need to play. This whole time, Shade is a 2/1 and assuming that there's no huge guy on the other side of the table so he can actually attack, he still only deals two damage.

If you want to use him as a blocker to deter attacks from Goyf etc, you'll need to not play any spells that turn so you have enough mana to pump him. And this deck doesn't play any instants aside from Ritual and Snuff Out (which is free to cast), so that turn will have gone to waste.

So what's my solution?

I say, screw Shade, and lets play lots of removal and a real threat (one that can end games in 4 turns by itself).

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Phyrexian Negator/Gouger

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole

4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate
2 Smother

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted delta
4 Bloodstained mire
6 Swamp
3 Bayou

Esper3k

02-15-2009, 01:22 AM

I've had a lot of good experiences with Shades, myself. Again, the 2 mana cost is huge, in my opinion, as it gives you a card other than Hymn that you can play off a T1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize. It also allows for great plays like T1: Thoughtseize, T2: Dark Ritual, Hymn/Sinkhole, Shade.

If you attack before casting your spells in your post combat main, you can oftentimes bluff the Shade through with just the threat of having mana open.

I've been playing the standard Eva Green build these days just because I haven't really felt the need to change it up (I played Deeds instead of Seals for awhile, but switched back because Deeds were just so expensive to use).

If you're looking for more creatures to put in, I'd suggest the Ashenmoor Gouger over the Negator. Yes, Negator is strong, but that drawback is just so rough today, especially when he might be running into Goyfs.

One side benefit of the Gouger I've liked is that in a very Moon heavy meta, you can still play him with ease since you can spend red mana on him.

SuperBean

02-16-2009, 03:05 AM

Well, here is my buddies list, he's curious on what peoples opinions are...

Creatures:
4x Tombstalker
4x Dark Confidant
3x Quirian Dryad
3x Tarmogoyf

Sorceries:
4x Snuff Out
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole

Enchantments:
3x Seal of Primordium
3x Pernicious Deed

Artifacts:
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
5x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Bayou
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
3x Smother
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip

Clark Kant

02-16-2009, 03:14 AM

Play 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Hypnotic Specter and 4 Dark Ritual.

It wouldn't be Eva Green without those cards. To free up room, cut Deed, Dryad, Top and a Confidant.

You end up with something very close to the proven list.

Esper3k

02-17-2009, 11:39 PM

AnwarA101

02-18-2009, 12:27 AM

In the area I play in (Houston, TX), Legacy isn't very big at all. I've always liked Legacy, but have mainly lurked on the forums here and haven't had much of an opportunity to play the format very much.

Suicide Black was one of those decks that I always loved the idea of, but my experiences with it always left me wanting as I'd always somehow end up in the mid-late game and die horribly. I'd just like to say that I've loved this deck from the moment I heard about it - the total disruption package + good creatures is just amazing.

So, for the more experienced players of the deck, I'd just like to see what your thoughts on some things:

1) I've run into problems with Moon effects hitting the table. My only problem with the mana base is that with a Moon effect around, you lose access to your green mana, losing 7 important cards. Other than having a Snuff Out against Magus or already having a Seal on the table, I was curious if anyone has developed any other methods of getting around Moons? I have been thinking about maybe changing the Fetch mana base a little bit to swap out some of the black fetch lands for some green ones and including 1 Forest in the deck. You'd lose the ability to fetch a basic swamp, but if you needed black mana, you could still always grab a Bayou.

2) I've often had difficult strategy decisions to make sometimes. For example, if you have an opening hand of Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Bayou, Swamp - what are generally the best plays on turns 2 and 3? Obviously T1, you want to Thoughtseize, but on Turn 2 is it better to drop your Goyf and play out the rest of your disruption on later turns? Or do you Hymn or Sinkhole on Turn 2 and drop Goyf on Turn 3?

Oftentimes I've tried both and have run into problems both times (sometimes I drop Goyf on 2 and they get out of control, other times I disrupt on 2, but they recover and my T3 Goyf is too slow).

3) This is just a curiosity of mine - directed to the creator of the deck if he still reads this thread. What do you think of the deck today and what (if any) changes would you make to it?

It seems like Eva Green hasn't really gotten anything in the past few sets to really add to it (Nyxathid was so close!) and I'm just curious about what the creator thinks of the deck these days.

Thanks!

1) I would not wreck your manabase to just avoid having to deal with the situations where Magus or Blood Moon resolve. You can play all but 7 spells off of swamps and one of the best ways to beat Magus or Blood Moon is to continue playing spells especially creaures against such decks. You still have a good chance to answer those threats with thoughtseize, seal, and snuff out. Playing 1 Forest would be terrible in this deck. Not would it make it harder to get double black, but it would be terrible almost all the time.

2) Playing disruption versus threats depends largely on which is likely to be more effective at that point in the game. Playing a turn 1 thoughtseize should help you make this decision. For example, I've found that I almost never play Hymn to Tourach against Goblins on turn 2. This is because the cards I want to really hit with it are Goblin Ringleader and Sieg-Gang Commander. So playing it on turn 4 on the play and turn 3 on the draw usually prevents those cards from coming down. Why not turn 2? Its because I'm less likely to hit those cards when they have more cards in hand. This is the opposite against combo where I desperately need to disrupt them before they can go off.

3) nitewolf9 and I developed the deck together, but I don't think there are many reasons to play the deck over Team America. Team America has many of the same elements (not all), but adds the the unbelievable blue cards like Force of Will, Daze, and Brainstorm which give the deck more control and ways to fix its draws. Perhaps nitewolf9 can add more to this.

nitewolf9

02-18-2009, 09:41 AM

3) nitewolf9 and I developed the deck together, but I don't think there are many reasons to play the deck over Team America. Team America has many of the same elements (not all), but adds the the unbelievable blue cards like Force of Will, Daze, and Brainstorm which give the deck more control and ways to fix its draws. Perhaps nitewolf9 can add more to this.

I think Anwar is spot on here. As powerful as Dark Ritual is it doesn't really compare to the consistency that cantrips give you and the ability to deal with top-decked threats in the form of countermagic. Aside from having a slightly less disruptable manabase I think the only other thing that Eva Green really has over Team America is the ability to run Choke out of the board.

Skeggi

02-18-2009, 10:46 AM

Eva Green is situational better than Team America. First reason is basics. In a nonbasic-hating meta, Eva Green may be a better choice.

Second reason (isn't really a real reason, but I'll share this experience nonetheless) is random Extirpates (yes, I know you guys hate this card). I played against a GWB rock deck with maindeck (!!!) Extirpates, at the end of my draw step, he Extirpates my Goyf/Tombstalker. Not alot of threats left I must say.

Since I'm playing Eva Green (and that's quite a short while) I'm pretty unamazed by Dark Ritual. Yes, it gives the deck some explosiveness which is pretty cool, but after your explosion you pretty much dry up. Have you guys ever considered dropping Dark Ritual for something that would be better mid-late game? Perhaps more discard or removal?

humppa

02-18-2009, 11:42 AM

Since I'm playing Eva Green (and that's quite a short while) I'm pretty unamazed by Dark Ritual. Yes, it gives the deck some explosiveness which is pretty cool, but after your explosion you pretty much dry up. Have you guys ever considered dropping Dark Ritual for something that would be better mid-late game? Perhaps more discard or removal?
In mid-late game I'm using Dark Ritual to play second Tombstalker or pump Shade. And in the first turn its amazing. I'm happy with DR in the deck.

Slayer001

02-18-2009, 12:10 PM

The rituals are what the deck needs to be so explosive eg: fetch, 2 rits and tomb in hand means first turn tombstalker, that puts a serious clock on your opponent, rituals stay good even in late game to pump shades or summon more tombstalkers if you haven't won yet.

What it can do in first turns is amazing. I play it for quite a while now, I saw some decks scoop to ritual --> thoughtseize --> hymn on first turn

Esper3k

02-18-2009, 03:29 PM

Part of the fun of Eva Green for me is the insanity of some hands you can get off of Dark Ritual. I agree that the deck isn't as consistant as the ones running blue cantrips or top, but it's just a great feeling when you rip an unanswered T1 Hyppie followed by a T2 Hymn/Sinkhole.

In comparing Eva Green to Team America, does anyone ever find any problems with Team America's relatively few threats? It seems to me that with only 8 threats, just letting one removal spell through can be a killer for the deck. Granted, Tombstalker is pretty resistant to everything but white removal, but with potentially 8 StP around these days, I'd think that it would be a concern.

DrewliusMaximus

02-19-2009, 01:33 AM

In comparing Eva Green to Team America, does anyone ever find any problems with Team America's relatively few threats? It seems to me that with only 8 threats, just letting one removal spell through can be a killer for the deck. Granted, Tombstalker is pretty resistant to everything but white removal, but with potentially 8 StP around these days, I'd think that it would be a concern.

My experience with Eva Green and Team America has been playing against them. But it seems relevant to me that in addition to having a smaller number of threats, Team America is also totally vulnerable to Relic of Progenitus (except for Stifle). Eva Green at least has Shade, and in the games I played against you Esper3k, accelerated Stalkers came down quickly a few different times before I could drop a Relic.

humppa

02-21-2009, 10:12 AM

First place on small local friday tournament.

14 people, 4 rounds

1. place - my Eva Green (Volcanic Island) - 12 points
2. place - Dredge (Scrubland or Savannah) - 9 points
3. place - Faerie Stompy (Jitte) - his own report - with more details (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321630&postcount=1334)

I played classic Eva Green build with only one change: -1 Nantuko Shade, +1 Reanimation. Classic means 3 seals in the main deck.

SB:
4x Leyline
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Krosan Grip (there are many cb/top, nought, chalices in my field)

I'm not sure with my sideboarding (I haven't very good memory :-))

Round 1, mono B reanimator
g1: I won thanks to Seal on Animate Dead and Thoughtseize on another reanimation spell.
SB: -4 sinkhole, +4 leyline

g2: I started with leyline and my opponent surrendered - he hadn't any answer...
1:0 (2:0)

Round 2, Rb Goblins (without vial) - lucky game
g1: Won the dice roll, start with swamp-ritual-hymn and discard badland and lackey. Next few turns opponent hasn't any source of colored mana, so it was really easy.
SB: -4 sinkhole, -1 hypnotic, +4 plague, +1 deed

g2: Oponent started with lackey, I started with swamp-ritual-plague. Then there was a few draw-and-go, because opponent had 2 rishadan port and many 1/1 on hand. When he let my mana untapped, I cast second plague and won.
2:0 (4:0)

Round 3, Rw Goblins (vial, swords)
g1: really fast, I couldn't find any answer and died to few piledrivers and marshalls
SB: -4 sinkhole, -1 hypnotic, +4 plague, +1 deed

g2: I destroyed his vial, played 3 goyfs and 1 stalker - hi only sworded one goyf, burn my stalker and then die. On turn before I can play a plague but he put 3x seal of cleansing on the table. Ups :)

g3: longer game, both of us has some threats, but I had more lives (swords). One plague and stalker won me the game.
3:0 (6:1)

Round 4, Dredge (my first game agains dredge in my live)
g1: I started with hypnotic, discard golgari and lost. Ups :)
SB: -4 sinkhole, -3 snuff out, -2 nantuko, +4 leyline, +1 deed, +4 plague ??

g2+g3: can't remember very well - I put sinkhole and nantukos back to the deck, played leylines and plague. G3 was long and very tiring for me - i was thinking how the dredge could work, what cards he could draw and beat me.. Uf.
4:0 (8:2)

Previous tournament I finished 2-2 and was very disappointed how the deck is going - many mulligans, many bad draws. This tournament, everything was very good (great in the round 2 :)). Team America with its cantrips could be really interesting improvement of this deck - much better consistency.

PS: sorry for my english, it's a little bit rusty :(

Ziilot

02-21-2009, 03:31 PM

First place on small local friday tournament.
...

Thanks for report. How did you like reanimate? I'm planning to play this deck or UGr swansthresh at tournament we have next weekend. In last tournament I lost 2 games in a row against burn. Thoughtseizes aren't very good against them :D.

humppa

02-22-2009, 03:33 AM

Thanks for report. How did you like reanimate? I'm planning to play this deck or UGr swansthresh at tournament we have next weekend. In last tournament I lost 2 games in a row against burn. Thoughtseizes aren't very good against them :D.

this tournament I had it only twice in my hand and only once play (for goyf). It was fine, I rather saw 1x nantuko and 1x reanimate than 2x nantuko. With all my discard....

Previous tournament reanimate won me a game agains elves - I reanimated quirion ranger, play goyf and return bayo tu my hand, so forestwalk of opponents creatures wasn't a problem :)

A like it and thinking about 2x reanimate, but haven't any space for it :/

Unknown2

02-22-2009, 04:43 PM

what are you running for the 3 flexible slots?

I'm running Nyxathid + 2x reanimate, but nyx is getting cut for something else

humppa

02-23-2009, 09:07 AM

what are you running for the 3 flexible slots?

I'm running Nyxathid + 2x reanimate, but nyx is getting cut for something else
I wrote it: 3x Seal of Primordium. In my field very good choice.

On sunday I play another tournament - 24 people - and finished 3:2:1 - but have some nice conclusion about deck consitancy and possible brainstorm support :-) I'm going to write a report.

Esper3k

02-23-2009, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the reports, Humppa. It's nice to see someone doing well with the deck!

I played it some this weekend, but did pretty poorly. I think I might be getting too greedy with my mulliganing, heh. :)

I'm also working on just playing the deck a lot more before attempting to make any modifications to it as well.

Arsenal

02-23-2009, 11:10 AM

humppa -

Have you ever wanted to use Pithing Needle in Seal of Primordium's slot?

Unknown2

02-23-2009, 11:52 AM

I wrote it: 3x Seal of Primordium. In my field very good choice.

On sunday I play another tournament - 24 people - and finished 3:2:1 - but have some nice conclusion about deck consitancy and possible brainstorm support :-) I'm going to write a report.

lol, sorry, that was to Ziilot

Lance

02-24-2009, 11:05 PM

Hi guys at TheSource!

So, I had this big legacy event last weekend in Montréal for a beta Time Walk (I know, it a little weird since it's a legacy event, but hey that's an awesome price:laugh: )!!

I decided to play Eva Green, since the deck never failed me in the past and given the fact I had no time to test, i was confidant playing the deck I know best. I thought about Team America, but decided Eva was alot better in Quebec Meta and boy was I right:cool: ...

It was a high quality tournament, with both good players and good decks (55 players): Threshold of course, Dreadstill, Merfolks (wich turnout to be THE deck at the event), Deadguy ale, Faerie Stompy, Counterslivers, fish, loam, you name it!

I finished 7th, going a lil' unlucky in my T8 match, but I dont want to discredit my opponent Lucas who played very well all day long with a very well metagamed BW fish deck.

I did not take notes, but I went 4-1-1 in swiss:
2-0 Against gobos, wich is in my experience an easy matchup for eva green (not so sure it's that good for TA)

2-1 vs UW/g Threshold, very nice opponent, I had some troubles against Relic and Grunt.

2-1 vs CounterSlivers, my opponent Sebastien was awesome: we got great matches and deed saved my day in both game II and III.

1-2 vs Merfolks, I tought I had the upper hand here, but it turn out to be a tough match. The guy played quite well and it turned out that the lil' fish can deals a huge amount of damage quite fast:cry: I did miss my 4th landrop like 5 turn in a row, so never had that green mana needed for those 2 goyfs and most importantly that crucial deed drop + activation at 3 (with ritual in hand).

2-1 vs Ichorid. I love Leyline. I really do.

Draw into T8, then I lost like I said to a great player who drew quite well too:laugh: !!

I have nothing to say about the maindeck except the fact that I played Jitte over Seal again (and it worked quite well), but I want to talk a lil' about the side.

Deed proved to me once more that it was alot more versatile than plague. Heck, even against gobos it is sometimes better when he has alot of x/2 guys... The fact that it hits artifacts and enchantments is huge too! Against slivers and merfolk plague does nothing and deed give you the game if you resolve it!!! Deed, drop stalker, equip jitte, game over.

Even if the deck has no draw, I still think its a better choice than TA in this type of meta, wich was full of merfolks, control decks and ... relics! Goyf was not a factor all day long because of yard' hate. I was quite happy with my shades and hippies' :smile:

humppa

02-25-2009, 02:58 AM

I finished 7th, going a lil' unlucky in my T8 match, but I dont want to discredit my opponent Lucas who played very well all day long with a very well metagamed BW fish deck.

I did not take notes, but I went 4-1-1 in swiss:
Congratulation! :-)

I'm testing 1 deed in SB and I'm not 100% sure about him. Very often he's very slow. But - one deed is often only small help agains goblins/merfolks... I'm going to put 3 deeds into SB and test it on next tournament.

About my biggest problem with this deck - consistency - when I have a good draw, this deck is amazing and fun to play. Sometimes I have a horrible draw - on last tournament I had to mulligen to 5 or 4 cards really often (after mulligan to 4 I beat a combo deck and finally win 2:1 :)).
I was thinking about switching to TA (brainstorm), but when I saw a great player on last tournament - he played 25 lands in his deck with 4 brainstorm and was manascrewed all the day - i think, it's more about luck, not cards :-)

humppa -

Have you ever wanted to use Pithing Needle in Seal of Primordium's slot?
No. One big reason - seals are great in MD, pithing not. So it's not only change of few cards for another, but it's about change MD and SB...

Seals in MD help with nought, landstill, vial, top, chalices, can help with LD plans - moxes, mishras, ... I like seals in main.

So if I wanna to play needles, I have to change my SB.

Slayer001

02-25-2009, 03:44 AM

I didn't test deed yet, because I thought it was to slow for this deck, How many did you run in the board ? And against what decks did it help except for slivers ?

Lance

02-25-2009, 08:53 AM

In that tournament alone it was amazing in each match: Gobs, slivers, ichorid, merfolk, threshold and fish. I played 4.

I dont think a 3 casting cost in a deck that play ritual is that slow. You can always play it then activate it next turn if you are not in the critic zone!

You just gotta play smart. Play 1 threat (all our threats need to be answered), hold the rest, if you get swarmed deed away, then drop another threat. After you deed they usually have next to nothing in hand: Thoughtseize, Tourach and they gotta drop their guys before 1 of ours ride the game to victory.

Unknown2

02-25-2009, 10:29 AM

I find it funny that most, if not, all of the matches that are being argued that deed is good against, are already in our favour.

If you have problems beating goblins, merfolk, thresh (variant depending), slivers or fish, you're playing the deck wrong. It's the little decks like this that i love playing against, yes, sometimes they overwhelm you, that's why you always keep a hand with an answer to their turn 1 play, followed by a threat.

Lance

02-25-2009, 12:01 PM

Ah yes the old classic "everyone and their mother have 90% win against Gobos, Threshold, etc." ...

I don't like your tone and I find it quite condescending.

I don't know why I even bother to answer you, but i'll do my best. It's true that we have the upper hand against Gobs, Thresh, Slivers and Fish. That doesn't mean we don't need anything vs those in our side.

Ichorid and merfolk aren't awesome matches in my experience. Try to beat an ok Ichorid hand without Leyline ... Merfolk can swarm you quite fast, i'm sure you didn't test that much the matchup to claim that we beat em' all the time.

My argument is that engineered plague is an incredibly narrow card wich isn't even really good where it's supposed to shine (vs gobos for exemple). Where is Plague better than deed? I sided in the deeds in every single matchup I played that day and I would not have sided plague in any of those, except for gobos...

Deed is good against:
- Any tribal deck
- Thresh
- Dreadstill (factory, dreadnought and goyfs are removed with deed @2)
- Enchantress
- Any SUI / deadguy ale variant (did I mention you HATE snuff out against those?!)
- ETW decks
- Ichorid
- Zoo (Goyfs, Kird ape, etc.) same goes for Goyfsligh
- Landstill (yes landstill, removing all Elspeth tokens + crucible is awesome)
- Survival
...

And i'm sure I forget some... Maybe you claim to have a 90% win percentage against all those but I don't and I don't think it's because "I'm playing the deck wrong" :wink:

Unknown2

02-25-2009, 12:17 PM

My apologies if my tone came off as hostile.

As to the Merfolk match, I played 10 games, followed by another 10 post-sideboard, and lost 4 times. That is solely what I'm basing my Merfolk matchup on.

As for the deed argument, I'm simply stating that it seems like overkill, yes, the occasional dreadnaught or natural order > progenitous seems to hurt a lot (assuming you're not running edicts).

It depends on how much you see Zoo and Enchantress, etc in your meta for it to warrant slots for Deed. In my meta, I see none of these, I see a few goblins, landstill (which I put plague on soldiers), gw aggro elves, Survival elves, 43 land, aluren and a few others.

As for snuff outs against sui, I run diabolic edicts main deck now alongside my snuff outs, so I have outs there.

Slayer001

02-25-2009, 04:48 PM

I only have 2 deeds atm so will test it out with 2. I'm going to touney at 8 march in mol.I need to decide what to take there. now running 4 plagues in the board and no reanimate in main because I don't have one.

Esper3k

02-25-2009, 05:10 PM

My experience with Deeds is that at times, they're amazing, but at other times, they're too slow (I was trying them MD instead of the Seals - I may try them in board instead).

I have very little experience actually using Plagues, but I could see them being useful in some matchups (fighting Elves & Goblins moreso than Merfolk, I'd think).

Deed is amazing against Affinity though :D

The drawback to Deed I've found (other than the speed) is that you need to be careful since you can blow up all your threats other than Tombstalker (Hyppie often dodges Deed too).

Like all sweepers though, you're going to be playing it when you're behind and using it to even the odds anyways.

Lance

02-25-2009, 06:27 PM

Apologies accepted:cool: ! Against Landstill, deed can be quite good! And against elves too!

It's true however that you got to adapt to your own meta, I myself, face 43 Lands like 1 time every 3 tournaments, so it's not really a factor here. But we run other cards against them, for exemple leyline so they can't recur their lands. If you are on the play and you thoughtseize away manabond or exploration, then you are in good shape (even better with a turn two sinkhole).

Against Aluren it's also true that deed suck, but we run discard and land destruction, wich both hit that deck pretty hard... Add to this Seal of Primordium or Krosan Grip, and I don't think Aluren is a hard deck to beat. Toad in his primer admitted that SUI variants were horrible matches!

I agree with you when you say it can sound "overkill", but when those decks side in a couple of good cards against you, it can't do no wrong to side yourself too. For exemple, we have a positive Thresh matchup. I do side out my 4 Snuff Out against them, because it hits only half of their guys (assuming they play 4 goyfs and 4 gooses) for 4 deed (wich rape Thresh board). You know what is even better? It's the fact that Thresh won't likely board in Krosan Grip because you play no target preboard (except 3 Jitte if you run them main like I do)!

As for Esper3k comment, I agree too that deed may seems slow at times. But again, Plague is as slow! And for me, the versatility of the card is too good to ignore. The truth is that sometimes you think you will face A, B or C decks and it end up that you face X, Y and Z, so I prefer to have someting in my board that will deal with that randomness!

Esper3k

02-25-2009, 07:17 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love Deed. I do agree that the sheer versatility of it is amazing and it has definitely been one of the cards that has really been worth the cost to obtain for me.

I think it's a lot slower than Plague though. First of all, you can play Plague off of a Dark Ritual, which you can't do for a Deed. While you could do it T2 with a Bayou, the T1: Ritual, Plague can be gg right there.

Second, Deed really needs 2 or more mana to be truly backbreaking, making the total cost really 5+. While it's spread out over the course of multiple turns, oftentimes, I've had my opponents kill the Deed in that little window before I could make it truly effective.

That being said, I think you need to look at your local metagame and see what works better for you. Both are great cards and really wreck certain decks.

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 01:10 AM

a faster solution to thresh would be Perish, no?

Slayer001

02-26-2009, 06:48 AM

matchup against thresh is already good so not necessary to put things in board against them. Dystopia would be better hit also: enchantress, angel stompy, Death and Taxes, ...

But my board is:

4x engineered plague
4x Leyline of the void
4x Choke
3x Jitte

think I'll keep that fro the tourney next sunday and let you all know how it went.

ZZZ

02-26-2009, 09:11 AM

Hello Everybody,

My first post in this thread although I've been following it for some time.

I'm an Eva Green player myself and I was hoping you guys could help me with some questions I have about the Sideboard.

First of all, I play the 'classic maindeck' (with Seal of Primordium; without Reanimate). My SB is currently:
- 4 Choke
- 4 Tormod's Crypt
- 4 E-Plague
- 2 Umezawa's Jitte
- 1 Putrefy

I first played the 3rd Jitte instead of the Putrefy (but I thought 2 would often be enough and Putrefy can come in against many decks). I haven't been satisfied with Putrefy though so I'm looking at some advice what to put in the board for it. My options would be: the 3rd Jitte again, Krosan Grip, Duress (another possible T1 discard would help the combo match up) or ... It's probably a meta call but would do you guys think.

I would also like to know how you board against the following decks (I'm often in doubt about what to board out): Merfolk, Aggro Loam (Crypts for Sinkholes?), Dreadstill (choke in but what do you take out) and MUC (same question as with Dreadstill).

Many thanks

PS: @Slayer001: you won't be the only Eva Green player in Mol then :wink:

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 09:59 AM

Well, first you need Krosan Grips in the sideboard, they are, honestly, one of the main reasons to play green in this deck

ZZZ

02-26-2009, 10:03 AM

I'm already playing 3 Seal of Primordium in the main. Maybe 1 Grip can go in the side but I think that is a meta call.

humppa

02-26-2009, 10:04 AM

Well, first you need Krosan Grips in the sideboard, they are, honestly, one of the main reasons to play green in this deck
Really? Why do you need it so much?
To destroy TOP when CB is already on the board?

I think main reason for green is Goyf. We can play Seal in MD. Grips are not auto-includes in SB. On last 2 tournaments I had 2 Grips in SB and use them maybe once?

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 10:12 AM

well, green is for goyf, yes, but he\s nothing but a fatty. Red Death was full of fatties AND burn and it died out to eva green.

ZZZ

02-26-2009, 10:17 AM

Seal (or Grip) in the main is always a good call, I think. If your meta allows it, you can move it to the side and play Jitte or Reanimate main but in most metagames nowadays, Seal should be in the main.

Anyway, some more input on my SB-questions would be much appreciated.

Bourgeoise

02-26-2009, 10:19 AM

well, green is for goyf, yes, but he\s nothing but a fatty. Red Death was full of fatties AND burn and it died out to eva green.

Red Death died out to Tarmogoyf.

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 10:20 AM

Are chokes necessary? I mean, I'm happy to be blue across from me a lot of the time. I tried with choke, and it just seemed like overkill to me.

Also, i very much recommend reanimate, either side or main. It's a very good card in tight spots.

The whole seal vs grip argument has been going on forever, so I'm not going to touch it, especially since I don't know your meta.

humppa

02-26-2009, 10:26 AM

well, green is for goyf, yes, but he\s nothing but a fatty. Red Death was full of fatties AND burn and it died out to eva green.
Great fatty. Phyrexian Negator is dead in current metagame, Rotting Giant is not very good combo with Tombstalker and great Goyf... And in many situation (landstill, vial destroyed on 2nd turn, pump up your goyf, Eva Green doesn't afraid of CB) Seal is better then Grip => Grip is redundant. In SB I'll prefer deed or jitte over 4+ "Seal"

I would also like to know how you board against the following decks (I'm often in doubt about what to board out): Merfolk, Aggro Loam (Crypts for Sinkholes?), Dreadstill (choke in but what do you take out) and MUC (same question as with Dreadstill).
Merfolk: +plague, +choke, +deed, +jitte, -sinkholes, -nantuko, -hymn (?divert?) -seal (with plague+choke+deed I am not scared by vial)

Dreadstill: +deed/grip/seal, -jitte, -sinkhole

Are chokes necessary? I mean, I'm happy to be blue across from me a lot of the time. I tried with choke, and it just seemed like overkill to me.
Choke is great agains many deck in my metagame (blue is everywhere) - thresholds, landstill, ...

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 10:36 AM

Yes, tarmo is a good fatty, that's why he changed our entire deckbuilding process, I'm just saying, from my opinion, since I don't play deed, or putrefy, etc, I really like grips in the sideboard, and that is half the reason i changed to eva insetad of red death (whereas in red death, i was fooling around with the last creature slot).

Also, to address Choke, I'm not saying it's a bad card, far from it. I'm just pointing out that other cards in your deck just seem better in a way, such as your discard which is never dead against blue, hyppie is great, tombstalker gets passed countertop,etc.

I've seen people play perish, but I don't like that either.

Now, I've noticed that a lot of people are disagreeing with me lately, I would like to point out that my meta is different than yours, and I am trying to be as helpful to everybody and to myself. I am not disagreeing for the most part with what you are saying, simply trying to see/make a point.

ZZZ

02-26-2009, 10:46 AM

Thanks to the both of you.

Chokes are in my board without a doubt. There's a lot of MUC in my meta and that's a though match-up in my opinion but it gets a whole lot better after you've boarded choke in.

I'll probably just go back to to 3 Jittes in my board.

Humppa; the way you board against Merfolk, it seems to me you are giving up a lot of tempo (Hymns, Sinkholes and Shades out). Haven't you had any problems with this?

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 10:55 AM

I would definitely keep Hymns in against anything blue, I'm very bad at siding out, so I can't help you there. I usually just cut some 4ofs to 3 and shades, lol

humppa

02-26-2009, 11:03 AM

Humppa; the way you board against Merfolk, it seems to me you are giving up a lot of tempo (Hymns, Sinkholes and Shades out). Haven't you had any problems with this?
Hymn was a question :-) last time a saw one divert :-)

I want to put in plague+deed+choke (about 7-9 cards). Sinkhole is week (vial, low mana costs), so I'm looking for another 3-5 cards. Nantuko is often my target for side out.
Second options is - don't side in so many cards, only plague+deed (4-5 cards?) and play without chokes? Then I'll put sinkholes out and its enough.

Merfolks is rare opponent for me, so I haven't it tested enough.

I would definitely keep Hymns in against anything blue, I'm very bad at siding out, so I can't help you there. I usually just cut some 4ofs to 3 and shades, lol
you're probably right

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 11:27 AM

Yeah, I never side in more than 7 cards per matchup, really. Although, I should bring in Krosan Grips more often than I do

Esper3k

02-26-2009, 11:31 AM

Unknown2

02-26-2009, 11:35 AM

Shades agaist red should never be played without extra mana open, so yes, i would side most of them, if not, all out, but then again, you don't want to cut half your creatures in half, just in case they are sitting with a lot of counters, you'll never get one to resolve.

Muradin

02-26-2009, 03:37 PM

humppa

02-26-2009, 04:08 PM

I am actually quite reluctant towards Seal of Primordium in the maindeck as it doesn't really support the deck's gameplan. For example Duress or Jitte seem to fit the deck's strategy much better. Why was Seal of Primordium chosen in this slot?
Duress is redundant - 4x hymn + 4x thoughtseize is enough
jitte could be replacement for seal, I think it's a meta call

try seal - you can found it really good in this deck.
merfolk/goblin? destroy vial - its better tempo giver than sinkhole :-)
nought/landstill/stax - seal make a path to the end...

have you tested it?

Slayer001

02-26-2009, 05:05 PM

Most of all it pumps tarmogoyf for one more and gets rid of pesky artifacts and enchantments. I sacraficed the seal alrdy to make my tarmogoyf one bigger when nothing else was there and it winned from an opposing creature and my opponent: "ow yes off coarse"

maybe I'll put two deeds in side for 2 plagues, dunno yet

Charlatan

02-26-2009, 10:17 PM

humppa

02-27-2009, 04:54 AM

How did u do that?
have the seal target itself?

Ty

Another common one: “Can I sacrifice Seal of Primordium to destroy itself.”

Yes, you can. Technically, you announce the “destroy enchantment or artifact” ability, including the target (Seal itself). Then you pay costs (sacrificing the Seal.) The ability goes on the stack. When it resolves, the ability will be countered on resolution because its target is gone, but that is usually not really relevant. People were sacrificing Seals to pump Tarmogoyfs, so having the Seal in the graveyard was the only relevant factor.

via http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14676.html

Anyway, some more input on my SB-questions would be much appreciated.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=292498&postcount=586
or find page 30 of this topic - there was nice discussion about sideboarding strategies :-)

ZZZ

02-27-2009, 05:32 AM

ZZZ - You don't happen to have any Leylines, do you? I'd think that those would work better against recursion decks like Aggro Loam than Crypt.

Against Dreadstill, I might consider taking out the Shades or some Hypnotic Spectres for the Chokes? Both of those are ones that might get wiped out by red sweepers that they could board in.

I wouldn't be too concerned with putting in more hate against combo since I feel our matchup against combo is pretty good already.

Edit: Another question: do we need to find room to fit in Diabolic Edict because of Natural Order - Progenitus? It's of course meta dependant. I'm not sure I would play Edict (probably not) at the moment but if I would; I'd probably do:
MD:
-1 Snuff Out
+1 Diabolic Edict
SB:
-1 Jitte (so keeping 2 in the board)
+1 Diabolic Edict

MD it still helps against opposing Tombstalkers and Confidants. What do you guys think?

I've been a little less impressed with EPlague myself these days and am thinking of changing that out for something else.

Thanks Esper.

I don't have any Leylines. At first I wanted to get some but nowadays it seems I don't need to board in graveyard hate very often and so I don't really want to spend the money on them...

Against Dreadstill; I want to keep in my hyppies. First turn hyppie seems great against them (as against any deck :tongue: ) and even later in the game it's never a dead draw. I'll probably take out the shades after game 1 and then if I see that they boarded in more sweepers game 2; I can still exchange the hyppies with the shades for game 3.

@Muradin: Seals are an absolute house in this deck. A big disadvantage of SuiBlack was that it couldn't get rid of artifacts and enchantments which in todays meta is necessary for almost any deck. Besides that it can create tempo as well. And as a bonus it pumps Goyf.
If your meta allows you to play without maindeck artifact and enchantment removal, you can replace them with Jitte or Reanimate but I think in most meta's Seal should be maindecked.

Charlatan

02-27-2009, 12:10 PM

Seal is great in this deck, dunno if is better then grip.

But with a lot of decks abusing from standstilll and vial, is a good card.

U can cast seal before opponent cast an still...

kikkofrio

02-27-2009, 12:10 PM

I would try this configuration,

// Lands
6 [ALA] Swamp (1)
3 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
3 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
3 [10E] Pithing Needle

What do u think about arena addition?

Charlatan

02-27-2009, 12:36 PM

I would try this configuration,

What do u think about arena addition?

hmm... we need to set any draw engine in this deck.

Arena should be tested, may work or not...

maybe night whisper or graveborn muse (mid game draw)...

And about needle, i would ru it as SB option, or maybe MD, it depends on what you fear most...

Unknown2

02-27-2009, 12:46 PM

I've tested with night's whisper and arena and such and it was always so underwhelming to me. Like I keep preaching, you need threats and disruption out fast and often.

Charlatan

02-27-2009, 01:37 PM

Anyone tryed to abuse from Top + Bob?

Or just top + fetch synergy?

Unknown2

02-27-2009, 01:42 PM

Tamp? what is this?

Charlatan

02-27-2009, 02:58 PM

Tamp? what is this?

Sry, i've just fixed it.

ty

Unknown2

02-27-2009, 03:00 PM

oh, lol, makes sense now. See, that just significantly slows down the deck, now instead of having a deck full of threats and disruption, you have 8 slots used for something else. This just isn't the kind of deck that can use it.

Esper3k

02-27-2009, 05:37 PM

Regarding Seal: It does at first glance seem to be a weird card since it's not really considered to be an awesome card considering how big of a card pool you have in Legacy. However, playing with it, I have rarely ever been disappointed to have it. Someone mentioned how you can use Seal to pump your Goyf (getting Enchantment, a relatively rare card type, into the graveyard). You can oftentimes pump your Goyf even more with a Seal by popping an artifact, another card time that you don't always see going into the graveyard.

With how many enchantments & artifacts these days (CB + Top, anyone?), having a main deck answer to them that doubles as extra damage is pretty good.

I also like Seal over Krosan Grip main deck because of the enchantment vs instant thing. More importantly to me, Seal is a card you play pretty much as soon as you get it. If it sits around and keeps them from playing their enchantments and artifacts, great. If you have to pop it to deal more damage or to kill a pesky enchantment/artifact, great. WIth Grip, oftentimes, you need to hold mana open for it to really be effective. Eva Green really isn't a deck where you can afford to be holding a lot of mana back, generally speaking. You usually want to burn all the mana you can and try and push through and finish the game.

Regarding Card Draw: I haven't been a huge fan of card draw for Eva Green for exactly the reason others have stated: it slows the deck down. Playing Eva Green is kind of like playing Dragon Stompy in that yes, sometimes your draws are going to suck or you're going to run out of gas. But, you can get amazing godhands and quickly overwhelm someone before they can recover. To maximize the chance of getting those awesome opening hands, you take the less consistant route and have to commit to pretty much your only path to victory.

Ziilot

03-01-2009, 05:41 AM

I played this deck yesterday in local tournament. I was satisfied with this deck although I went only 3-2. I was 11th of 25 players.

Matches
Lost 0-2 BGW rock
Lost 1-2 SuicideBlack
Won 2-0 RG Goblins
Won 2-0 UB Dreadnought
Won 2-0 It's the fear

Nothing much to tell about these matches. Snuff Out don't hit black creatures and Deed is too slow.

My sideboard was:
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Deck was proven list with +1 reanimate, -1 nantuko shade addition. The highlight of this tournament was when i reanimated my own tombstalker after opponent had forced me to discard it. :)

ZZZ

03-02-2009, 07:09 AM

Charlatan

03-02-2009, 07:27 AM

I'll probably take out Shades for them as I think this match-up comes down to who can disrupt the otherone first (tempo advantage), so I don't want to take out any sinkholes or hymns or so...
Does anyone have any experience with this?

Instead of running Engineered Plague, why won't u run 4 removel in sb just like smother....

Have anybody here tried to run Plague Spitter in the SB?

Against aggro decks, side Plague Spitter in the Hyppies' place?

ty

Bourgeoise

03-02-2009, 08:45 AM

I'll be playing Eva Green on a tournament here in Belgium next Sunday.
I'll run the list completely as in the opening post (so without Reanimate), same SB as well.

Merfolk just won a tournament here, so I expect a decent amount of fishes on Sunday as well. I don't have a lot of experience with this match-up but it would seem to me that Choke and E-plague (or Deed) are just to slow for this match. So I'm thinking to just board in 3 Jittes. I'll probably take out Shades for them as I think this match-up comes down to who can disrupt the otherone first (tempo advantage), so I don't want to take out any sinkholes or hymns or so...
Does anyone have any experience with this?

It doesn't make any sense to me to not board in your bombs against both island-based decks and tribal decks, if either of these cards lands in your matches against merfolk your opponent should be shitting bricks. I would agree that deed is too slow but plague and choke are not by far since you have rituals to help with the cc and an ideal choke comes out around turn 3 anyways when your opponent has some lands already tapped down.

Esper3k

03-02-2009, 10:08 AM

Instead of running Engineered Plague, why won't u run 4 removel in sb just like smother....

Have anybody here tried to run Plague Spitter in the SB?

Against aggro decks, side Plague Spitter in the Hyppies' place?

ty

I tried out Deed over the EPlague sideboard slots this weekend and was pretty happy with it. There was no time that I wish I had the Plagues in over Deed. Deed actually turned the game around for me once against Goblins when I swept their board with it (Plague wouldn't have done it because he had a Goblin King out).

I haven't tried Plague Spitter, but it seems like 1 damage wouldn't be enough to do much to most aggro decks. Tribal decks will tend to have lords pumping their guys and Zoo/White decks all seem to have guys that are 2+ toughness as well.

Hypnotic Spectre also serves a different role than something like Plague Spitter - it's more a disruption card than a removal/damage card.

Against Aggro, Jitte is usually pretty good. Deed, if you're playing it, is pretty good too if you can get it down fast enough. Your Snuff Outs should be really good as well and if you can get down an early Goyf or Tombstalker, that should give you a lot of stalling time as well.

I'd probably board out Seals and some Sinkholes or Shades (depending on your taste) against Aggro decks.