[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[Mr. Durden]

hey guys is there an inexpensive substitute for sinkholes until I can afford to get the real ones? I'e seen blight and rain of tears on deckcheck but don't know if either are really legacy playable. Otherwise any other suitable cards for that slot that you can think of might work too. Any suggestions would be really appreciated.

[coraz86]

I've never played it with Sinkholes, and I've always done all right without them. Then again, having not used them, I don't know if they take the deck from "all right" to "awesome" or not. Depending on how you think the meta will be, Aleksandr's suggestion of Unmask is something I've done before and liked, or you could play additional removal (Smother especially). I've even used Pox, and though I still haven't quite gotten the hang of it, it's entertaining and sometimes catches people off guard.

[gvbarroso]

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think about 1-2 Berserk slots as a finisher? It gives a +4/+5 pump plus trample for Tarmogoyf, +5 for Stalker and has a lot of potential if you are running Shade...

[jamis]

Looking for a little help with my current build.

Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter

Instants (10)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
2 Smother

Sorceries (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (19)
3 Bayou
7 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grip
3 Summoning Trap

I was having a little trouble deciding if I should be running 2 Duress in addition to the 4 Thoughtseize or 2 Smother in addition to the 4 Snuff Out. I decided on the extra removal, but am still torn.

I'm not sure if I should be running more creatures. I think the creatures I have right now are all at the right number, but maybe I should add some more of something else. Putrid Leech, perhaps?

[Jon Stewart]

hey guys is there an inexpensive substitute for sinkholes until I can afford to get the real ones? I'e seen blight and rain of tears on deckcheck but don't know if either are really legacy playable. Otherwise any other suitable cards for that slot that you can think of might work too. Any suggestions would be really appreciated.

If you don't have Sinkhole, don't play LD. Play more removal (Gatekeeper of Malakir, Smother), more threats (Putrid Leech, Vampire Nighthawk), or even some random combo (Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) instead.

P.S: I'm not a fan of Nantuko Shade. It's too slow and no where near as good as it once was. I would play both Gatekeeper of Malakir and Vampire Nighthawk in the deck well before I would play Nantuko Shade. The former two are a lot better in the format since there are a lot more creatures running around in legacy these days.

In short...

Tarmogoyf > Tombstalker >>> Vampire Nighthawk = Hypnotic Specter = Gatekeeper of Malakir >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nantuko Shade = Putrid Leech = Dark Confidant

[2Rach]

Just split 1st in a 50 man 2-of-each-Dual tournament at Knight-ware. I went 4-1-ID in the swiss.

I played this list:
Creatures: 16
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Nantuko Shade
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Tombstalker

Other Spells: 23
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Snuff Out

Lands: 21
4x Bayou
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Choke
2x Krosan Grip
2x Perish
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Round 1: I beat Rb goblins 2-0. I got very lucky. He tends to draw a lot of mana sources when he plays me.
Round 2: I beat BGW Survival Rock 2-1. Game 1 he gets Loyal Retainer into Iona. Game 2 he keeps a 1 Forest/2 Birds hand with Survival and Goyf and other stuff but I have 3 Maelstrom Pulses. Game 3 all I can remember was that Perish wiped a needed Birds and an Eternal Witness while my Nighthawk flew over before that.
Round 3: Lost to Dredge 0-2 due to play mistakes. Second game I didn't keep a Ritual for a later bounced Leyline and didn't draw lands to replay it. Also, I had Nighthawk on the field with him at 4 life. I thought Iona has first strike along with the flying so I didn't attack into her to win or kill Iona. RTFC
Round 4: Beat Dreadstill 2-1. Don't remember much except making a really bad play mistake. He had relatively little business and I was beating down early with a Shade and pumped it during an attack when he animated a Mishra's Factory, blocked and boosted itself while I had a Snuff in hand. I got distracted with the match to my left and the second I said "okay" to the damage step I realized my idiocy. Went on to win the game, which I think was game 1.
Round 5: Beat ProElves 2-1. Keep a 2 Wasteland/creature-heavy hand game 1 and lose to Prog. Games 2/3: Perish is awesome.
Round 6: Standings go up showing me in 3rd, I get paired against 1st and we ID.

Top 8:

(not in order)
White Stax
Enchantress
Eva Green (myself)
Aggro Loam
UBr Blossom/Sprite/Stalker w/ Blightning
Rb Goblins
2 I don't know


Quarters: The same Rb goblins gets in. I roll 3 dice getting 6/6/6 but he trounces me as he should in game 1. Seeing as the devil's on my side, the next 2 games I get lucky as I did in round 1. Though he sided out his sideboard Smothers against me for more bodies which seems bad in my opinion. The last tournament I played him as Mono-R and got lucky there too.

Semis: Aggro-loam. Beat him 2-0. First game we go back and forth and the field builds up with a 6/6 Terravore and Dark Con while I have 2 5/6 Goys maybe a Nighthawk and a Tombstalker while he's at 7 and gets another Conf off the top to take him to 5 for my Stalker. Something fun to note, game 2 he got Countryside Crusher turn 3 and then proceeded to go through 10 lands the next turn. Vampire Nighthawk saves my ass by stalling until I get a Pulse to destroy 2 Crushers. (He didn't see Pulse in the first game)

Finals: Split with Dragon Stompy. Played it out at Subway afterward for whoever gets the NM Underground Sea(Other was Exc). We both ended up with an Underground Sea and a Tropical Island. Game 1 I get time to fetch for basics and have enough removal. Game 2 I get 2 swamps and a forest in hand and get the game under control but he topdecks a Rakdos Pit Dragon and I can't draw removal while I chump with Nighthawk and Stalker and a second Stalker sits in my hand. Game 3 I don't remember, but I won this one for the better Usea.



Comments about my choices:
Vampire Nighthawk: better than sliced bread. Much better than Hypnotic Specter, especially in this meta.
Gatekeeper of Malakir: Not as good as sliced bread, but still more testing is to be done.
Nantuko Shade: It's not what's ideal but it's the best big beater next to Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, a necessary evil imo.
Umezawa's Jitte: Never saw it except in a game against Dragon Stompy topdecking it to kill his Jitte.
Maelstrom Pulse: I won't leave home without it. Has saved me ****TONS of times.
Tombstalker at 3: Works much better for me at 3 than 4. Clogs my hand otherwise.
Forest: Better than previously tested. Helped me against Loam and Dragon Stompy. There were a lot of Stax and Wasteland+recursion lists in the tournament so I swapped Mires and a swamp for Catacombs and a forest right before the tournament. Didn't clash with my cards as much as it did in testing but there was 1 hand I mulled because Wasteland+forest, especially with no goyfs in hand, doesn't get there.

SB:
Deed, Perish, and Choke continue to be all-stars.
Krosan Grips I rarely sideboarded in and rarely drew them. Thinking of replacing with Duresses, Engineered Plagues, or Jitte and Perish.
Leyline of the Void: An experienced Dredge player friend says this is best. If it weren't for my mistakes I probably would have won the game. Sticking with it for now.

[ChillerKiller0815]

Hi everyone,
haven´t posted for a while. Thought to bring the discussion up again.
Eva Green is still a very aggressive deck with a devastating way of dealing with opponents hands. This makes this deck good against Combo, sets Control on a descent clock (questions) and taking their answers on the way. Even Aggro seems doable since we have often the bigger critters and force them into top deck mode very quick. In general this deck is still a very good choice for an unknown Meta and bigger events.
So my question is: “Why isn´t Eva Green played anymore as commonly as it should?”
I tried to answer that question to myself. What has changed in the last couple of month (year)? Well obviously new CARDSETS where printed…..so what did that change?
We got:
a) More Fetchies, making manabases more consistent. And opening them for more basics. Hence mana-screwing the opponent became harder.
b) A large number of cheap and reasonable sized critters along with the tribal support cards gave aggro a huge boost. Goblins gained popularity again (Warren Weirding, Instigator, Chieftain), and decks like merfolk and zoo (Wolly T.,…) became decks to beat. So Aggro became more dominant and its average manacost still dropped (Think of it: Critters with cc >= 4 are almost a no-go).
c) A couple of combo-/comboish decks where born (PainterServant/ANT/Dream-Hall-Combo/NO-Progenitus). And decks like Ichorid where boosted by gaining cards like Iona, Sphinx, Bloodghast,…).
d) There are other things that not get mentioned here.
So what does this mean for Eva Green? There are fewer lands needed since aggro got cheaper, there are less non-basic lands being played due to more fetchies in the right color and fewer lands being played in combo. This means that wasteland lost a little power and sinkhole became less and less relevant. I noticed that I constantly board out all 4 copies of Sinkhole, because it is not needed vs combo and too slow vs aggro.
Also Eva green still needs its entire hand destruction package in order to battle combo. At the same time more creatures need to be handled because of the rise of aggro in general. Since the entire game accelerates we have to watch out for speedbumps more then ever.
So what are the new cards/choices Eva Green can think about?
Dark Depth + Hexmage No, needs too much support  different deck
Bloodghast  No, no way of gaining much out of them early on, therefore not fast enough. Too much grave dependency alongside Goyf and Stalker for this deck.
Nighthawk  Evasion, Deathtouch, Lifelink, Survives any Critter with toughness 2 or less, Lives thru Fire/Ice, Shock, Magma Jet, SGC, Grim Lavamancer, Volcanic Fallout, Infest, Pyroclasm,……..  Very versatile but a little expensive.
Gatekeeper  Yes, this is what we looked for ….  Kills Critter, makes our own connect and is a threat itself.
Sensei + Confidant  Some people try it, but I feel that you have to lower the curve too much and it takes up to much deckspace ( 4 Confidants + 3 Sensei + for carddraw, lifeloss and less Tombstalker! I mean think of a not too unlikely scenario like: You are on the draw and opponent plays a creature that needs to be handled. Your turn you go Fetch  Swamp , Ritual, Thoughtseize, Confidant, Snuff Out : Life Total = 13! Next Turn you either draw cc3 leaving you at 10 with a card you can´t play or Snuff Out leaving you at 9 with a card that would drop you to 5 or Tombstalker that drops you to 5 as well.) The game becomes a dice-roll a few times too often for my taste. If people play this way and take SUICIDE-Deck literally that is O.K. , but not my playstyle.
So this is the new decklist I want to play:
Lands (20)
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamps
4 Wastelands
Creatures(20)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specters
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
2 Nantunko Shade
Others (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB(15)
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Open Slots  Something like (Grip, (((Extirpate))), Choke, Infest, Perish, Gaea´s Cradle, Engineered Plague, Relict,…)

Numbers:
Average Manacost =1.3833 (Counting Tomstalker as 4, Gatekeeper as 2.5 and only counting 1 Snuff Out) otherwise it would be 1.7500
Handdestruction: 3 TS, 2 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Hypnotics = 13 (More would be overkill since they become a dead draw if opponent is in top deck mode.)
Creature Removal: 4 Gatekeeper, 3 Snuff Out, 2 Pulse, (3 Nighthawk) = 9 (12)
Permanent Removal: 2 Pulse + Handdestruction
3 Tombstalker: I don´t want to have him in the opening 7, but want to see him regularly. Less Gravedependancy and less risk of running into two (often unplayable)
2 Shade´s: Fits the curve. Can be a house, but never as a double. 2 are fine for me.
3 Snuff Out: A lot more removal has been added. Safes some life I would like to use on Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize: Often I fear the noncreature spells more, especially now that a run a ton of removal. Safes some life I would like to use on Reanimate.
2 Reanimate: Finds always a goodie in someone´s grave. Goes well with Handdestruction and Creatureremoval. Often is a huge speedboost. I already found an IONA in an Ichoridbuild on the draw, when he dredged on his first turn, but didn´t go off. Also a good card against Reanimator decks and….
0 Sinkholes: I got 4 beta one´s and it really hurts me not using them, but at the moment I feel that it is a necessary evil to go that way.

I hope you guys are willing to share some constructive thoughts on my new build.

[Slayer]

Hi, long time lurker first post.
I have been using Eva Green for about 2 years now & have found much of the same problems, but I think having so many 3cc with Gatekeeper needing to be kicked could be problematic with only 20 land. I love the addition of Gatekeeper & have found him to be a bomb.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I run 3 Maelstrom Pulse, and 4 Thoughtseize, I might try dropping one of each in favor of Reanimates. My local meta is very creature driven. Zombie War Monks would be nice, haha

[ChillerKiller0815]

Hi everyone,

trying to drop 1 Creature in my above mentioned list to find some more room for an extra land.

I am also very excited about the new Land from Worldwake:

Bojuka Bog (Land):

Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target player's graveyard.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.

Seems like a very promissing SB card that is an uncounterable Graveremoval that doubles as a manasource. I think that is the wright way of looking at the card. It produces black, isn´t a speedbump like crypts or even relicts, is uncounterable --> sexy; but no instant speed removal. So it needs to be played alongside some other anti-grave-cards like R.Trap or Leyline or whatever. But the other solution can be played fewer in numbers and the land gives you more mana in g2/g3 or is boardable against Lands which lets you keep all the other MB-cards.

I really wish Bajuka Bog was a SWAMP!!!! :P

[jamis]

I think Leyline is much better gravehate than Bojuka Bog, and if you're going to run Leyline, you need four. However, if you want more than four cards to hate against dredge and loam, I think Bojuka Bog is the best card to include after Leyline.

Anyway, here's my current list

Creatures (18)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
1 Putrid Leech
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter

Instants (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

Sorceries (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

Lands (21)
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Summoning Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[AnwarA101]

The last time I played this deck was with Chalice of the Void in sideboard to help against both aggressive and combo decks, but lately I've become more and more convinced the deck really wants Chalice of the Void in the main deck. The deck has 8 spells at one mana and Thoughtseize has been underwhelming both against aggro and combo. This can make the deck a bit slower outside of the ritual draw, but it also means that its cards have more impact. Chalice of the Void can win games in this format, but Thoughtseize rarely does.

I've also been convinced to try Sylvan Library as a way to find the best cards and in certain cases generate card advantage (thought the use of Snuff Out makes this a bit more precarious).

Here's the list I've been tinkering with, but it has very little testing behind it. I think its an interesting approach about where the deck might want to go.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Snuff Out
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

[coraz86]

The last time I played this deck was with Chalice of the Void in sideboard to help against both aggressive and combo decks, but lately I've become more and more convinced the deck really wants Chalice of the Void in the main deck. The deck has 8 spells at one mana and Thoughtseize has been underwhelming both against aggro and combo. This can make the deck a bit slower outside of the ritual draw, but it also means that its cards have more impact. Chalice of the Void can win games in this format, but Thoughtseize rarely does.

I've also been convinced to try Sylvan Library as a way to find the best cards and in certain cases generate card advantage (thought the use of Snuff Out makes this a bit more precarious).

Here's the list I've been tinkering with, but it has very little testing behind it. I think its an interesting approach about where the deck might want to go.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Snuff Out
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

I feel like a dumbass having never thought to use Library instead of Bob/Top. :( That's a great idea, please update if/when you test it.

Given the mana-hungry nature of the deck to begin with, and also the fact that you're running only eight lands that produce black mana, are you not worried about making Shade relevant? I only ever run six fetchlands (being scared shitless of Stifle as I am) and ten to twelve black sources, and I still haven't had particularly good luck with Shade.

[Illissius]

Is the fact that you have a grand total of 4 one drops left in the deck not an issue? (It might well not be. I'm just asking.)

[AnwarA101]

Is the fact that you have a grand total of 4 one drops left in the deck not an issue? (It might well not be. I'm just asking.)

Well Dark Ritual is best in your opening hand so if you do draw a Dark Ritual after resolving a Chalice of the Void that does make the card dead, but Dark Ritual is often dead if you draw it. Sure it can giant growth your Shades or power out a Tombstalker, but in general it is the worst card you can top deck. I think its an acceptable trade off and Dark Ritual lets you play Chalice on turn 1 so it has its benefits as well.


@coraz86: I'm not sure how many more lands you would want. I want fetchlands to fuel Tombstalker, shuffle for Sylvan Library, find the appropriate basic or dual given the circumstance, and in the long run thin my deck. Sure you run into Stifle, but what the rest of the time where fetch lands are nothing short of gold?

[jamis]

Why run 4 Chalice of the Voids if your only goal is to play it at one? Chalice at two can really shut down your deck, so after you get one into play, you won't want to see it anymore, making it just as bad of a late game top deck as dark ritual. Would using two or three be better?

[Illissius]

Well Dark Ritual is best in your opening hand so if you do draw a Dark Ritual after resolving a Chalice of the Void that does make the card dead, but Dark Ritual is often dead if you draw it. Sure it can giant growth your Shades or power out a Tombstalker, but in general it is the worst card you can top deck. I think its an acceptable trade off and Dark Ritual lets you play Chalice on turn 1 so it has its benefits as well.

Total misunderstanding of what I was asking. I was asking whether there might be too few one drops, not too many. As is, if you don't draw a Ritual, you spend turn one doing nothing. Is this fine? That most attempts at fixing it would run into more dissynergy with Chalice is of course another factor. (You could accelerate straight into two drops with Moxen, but that, as all things, has its drawbacks; there's such a thing as too much card disadvantage acceleration.)

[AnwarA101]

Total misunderstanding of what I was asking. I was asking whether there might be too few one drops, not too many. As is, if you don't draw a Ritual, you spend turn one doing nothing. Is this fine? That most attempts at fixing it would run into more dissynergy with Chalice is of course another factor. (You could accelerate straight into two drops with Moxen, but that, as all things, has its drawbacks; there's such a thing as too much card disadvantage acceleration.)

Yeah, that leads the deck to have slow openings, which I thought I addressed. That is the problem with playing Chalice of the Void in this type of deck. You could run something like Mox Diamond, but isn't that just worse than Dark Ritual and having more than 4 accelerants means that you'll just completely run out of gas that much faster.

@jamis: You want to play 4 so that you have the best chance of playing it on turn 1 or at least turn 2 where it will have the most impact.

[jazzykat]

As a CotV proof accelerator you can use the slightly off color Elvish Spirit Guide which gets you to 2 mana on the first turn, enables anti-daze shenanigans, and in the very late game is a body.

[ChillerKiller0815]

My List and some thoughts:

Lands (20)
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamps
4 Wastelands
Creatures(19)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specters
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
1 Nantunko Shade
Others (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB(15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Crop Rotation
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Bajuka Bog
1 Dark Depth
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas / Tabernacle / Maze

Hi guys,
I just came up with an interesting SB just a few minutes ago. I don´t know if it is good for anything, but I think it is at least worth a try.

So what is the idea?
- Krosan Grip is good against cards that we have problems against (Chalice @ 2; Counterbalance; Vial; Jitte; Humility; Painter/Combo;…) and adds to MB Pulse; making 2 a good number for the SB.
- Ravenous Trap against grave-strategies. Is being supported by 2 sorcery speed Bajuka Bog giving me 4 cards against graves. I play a 2/2 Split because I want to support Crop Rotation in my deck. Crop Rotation gives me the possibility to play Bog at instant speed and lets me find Bog only if needed. So I play 7 anti-grave-cards.
- Crop Rotation lets me abuse some other land-cards and lets me pull of some nice anti aggro and combo tricks.
1. My untapped Bayou´s become Wastelandproof by sacking them in response and fetching something more suitable.
2. I get a little more resistible against Moon effects
3. Every unneeded land can be transformed into a wasteland!
4. It opens me for the possibility to power out a Tombstalker much faster. (Opening 7: Fetch/Crop/Ritual/Stalker/+3 Others: Play Fetch-Fetch for Bayou-Play Crop Rotation and get Fetch For Swamp – Ritual – Stalker) Or play the Stalker turn 2 if you have 2 Fetchlands and no Ritual in opening 7!
5. Gives me the chance of squeezing in a 4 card Dark Depth Combo which can kill as early as turn 2 or turn 3 using Crop Rotation. Could be Sb`ed against Combo/Burn/aggro: by replacing stuff like 4 Malakir/ 3 Snuff Our against non-creature Combo; 3 Snuff Out/ 3 Thoughtseize +2 others against Burn / 2 Duress / 4 Specter +2 Others against aggro
6. Lets me play instant speed grave removal aka Bog
7. Could give me Tabernacle if played in SB if the meta demands it
8. Gives me an out against Dark Depth Avatar and Iona via Karakas (Iona would never name GREEN!)
9. Gives me an damage out (via Chasm) against fatal blows of Progenitus, Burn, Charbelcher,…. and me the chance to stabilize and Cumulative: 2 Life or hit back next turn for lethal .
10. Live loss from fetchlands in the lategame can be avoided (small effect).
11. This all makes the Crop Rotation a cheap universal joker card. I could support cards like Dryad Arbor, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, (Bloodghast),…


So what are the Cons?

- It kills me if it gets countered. So it isn´t very good against blue-based decks but is still playable if backed up with discard.
- Changing a land to a different solution costs a card which slows you down.
- I lost SB-space for cards like Jitte/Choke/Infest… (one of them could still be squeezed in).


Why no Living Wish MB?

This is a fast aggro-control deck that can´t afford to get stuff out of the SB and losing 2 turns of pressure. This deck wins by playing threats and taking answers forcing the opponent to look for solutions. So Living Wish is not suitable for our overall game-plan.

So what do you guys think?

Greetings

[ChillerKiller0815]

My List and some thoughts:

Lands (20)
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamps
4 Wastelands
Creatures(19)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specters
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
1 Nantunko Shade
Others (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB(15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Crop Rotation
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Bajuka Bog
1 Dark Depth
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas / Tabernacle / Maze

Hi guys,
I just came up with an interesting SB just a few minutes ago. I don´t know if it is good for anything, but I think it is at least worth a try.

So what is the idea?
- Krosan Grip is good against cards that we have problems against (Chalice @ 2; Counterbalance; Vial; Jitte; Humility; Painter/Combo;…) and adds to MB Pulse; making 2 a good number for the SB.
- Ravenous Trap against grave-strategies. Is being supported by 2 sorcery speed Bajuka Bog giving me 4 cards against graves. I play a 2/2 Split because I want to support Crop Rotation in my deck. Crop Rotation gives me the possibility to play Bog at instant speed and lets me find Bog only if needed. So I play 7 anti-grave-cards.
- Crop Rotation lets me abuse some other land-cards and lets me pull of some nice anti aggro and combo tricks.
1. My untapped Bayou´s become Wastelandproof by sacking them in response and fetching something more suitable.
2. I get a little more resistible against Moon effects
3. Every unneeded land can be transformed into a wasteland!
4. It opens me for the possibility to power out a Tombstalker much faster. (Opening 7: Fetch/Crop/Ritual/Stalker/+3 Others: Play Fetch-Fetch for Bayou-Play Crop Rotation and get Fetch For Swamp – Ritual – Stalker) Or play the Stalker turn 2 if you have 2 Fetchlands and no Ritual in opening 7!
5. Gives me the chance of squeezing in a 4 card Dark Depth Combo which can kill as early as turn 2 or turn 3 using Crop Rotation. Could be Sb`ed against Combo/Burn/aggro: by replacing stuff like 4 Malakir/ 3 Snuff Our against non-creature Combo; 3 Snuff Out/ 3 Thoughtseize +2 others against Burn / 2 Duress / 4 Specter +2 Others against aggro
6. Lets me play instant speed grave removal aka Bog
7. Could give me Tabernacle if played in SB if the meta demands it
8. Gives me an out against Dark Depth Avatar and Iona via Karakas (Iona would never name GREEN!)
9. Gives me an damage out (via Chasm) against fatal blows of Progenitus, Burn, Charbelcher,…. and me the chance to stabilize and Cumulative: 2 Life or hit back next turn for lethal .
10. Live loss from fetchlands in the lategame can be avoided (small effect).
11. This all makes the Crop Rotation a cheap universal joker card. I could support cards like Dryad Arbor, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, (Bloodghast),…


So what are the Cons?

- It kills me if it gets countered. So it isn´t very good against blue-based decks but is still playable if backed up with discard.
- Changing a land to a different solution costs a card which slows you down.
- I lost SB-space for cards like Jitte/Choke/Infest… (one of them could still be squeezed in).


Why no Living Wish MB?

This is a fast aggro-control deck that can´t afford to get stuff out of the SB and losing 2 turns of pressure. This deck wins by playing threats and taking answers forcing the opponent to look for solutions. So Living Wish is not suitable for our overall game-plan.

So what do you guys think?

Greetings

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Deja Vu?

I'm working on mine right now, getting ready for SCG Virgina. But what are your guy's thoughts on dropping Dark Rit? Everyone keeps telling me its weak unless its in opening hand. but I think that if it is in opening hand, its effing awesome. I don't really want to cut it, but a turn 5, top deck Ritual is kinda "ugh"

[coraz86]

I'm working on mine right now, getting ready for SCG Virgina. But what are your guy's thoughts on dropping Dark Rit? Everyone keeps telling me its weak unless its in opening hand. but I think that if it is in opening hand, its effing awesome. I don't really want to cut it, but a turn 5, top deck Ritual is kinda "ugh"

a) It gives you potential for ridiculous early turns.

b) It's half the mana cost of a Tombstalker.

I like putting Pox in my build, so I can use it to cast Pox too (or pitch it to Pox, if there's something else in my hand I want to keep).

The deck seems to me to be both very mana-hungry and reliant on explosion (disrupt them early game, then drop a Stalker or Goyf and punch them in the face), and Dark Ritual is key to both of those things for me. I guess it depends on what build you're thinking of though.

I usually put a pair of SDTs in the deck, since I am a Rock player at heart and I hate being in topdeck mode. That usually helps me.

[coraz86]

I'm working on mine right now, getting ready for SCG Virgina. But what are your guy's thoughts on dropping Dark Rit? Everyone keeps telling me its weak unless its in opening hand. but I think that if it is in opening hand, its effing awesome. I don't really want to cut it, but a turn 5, top deck Ritual is kinda "ugh"

a) It gives you potential for ridiculous early turns.

b) It's half the mana cost of a Tombstalker.

I like putting Pox in my build, so I can use it to cast Pox too (or pitch it to Pox, if there's something else in my hand I want to keep).

The deck seems to me to be both very mana-hungry and reliant on explosion (disrupt them early game, then drop a Stalker or Goyf and punch them in the face), and Dark Ritual is key to both of those things for me. I guess it depends on what build you're thinking of though.

I usually put a pair of SDTs in the deck, since I am a Rock player at heart and I hate being in topdeck mode. That usually helps me.

[DragoFireheart]

Will the new Abyssal Persecutor see any use in this deck? A 6/6 flier for 4 mana seems pretty insane.

We could then throw in other sac effects like Cabal Therapy or Fleshbag. Also, Gatekeeper can be used to off him as well.

[jimirynk]

Thoughts on Basilisk Collar?
It gives this deck the gain life I have always wanted.
Your shades become gain x life.
Your bobs can trade with opposing goyfs and gain you 2 life.
Seems good.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Thoughts on Basilisk Collar?
It gives this deck the gain life I have always wanted.
Your shades become gain x life.
Your bobs can trade with opposing goyfs and gain you 2 life.
Seems good.

I haven't posted in a while because I have felt like most new ideas about this deck have been quite a stretch, and I have been pleased with my build as it is. Basilisk Collar, however, is definitely a card I think we should consider. I'm just not sure if it is better than Jitte in enough situations to merit a spot, but it is definitely worth testing. If someone tests this out, please post your results.

[popeye79]

Basilisk Collar, however, is definitely a card I think we should consider. I'm just not sure if it is better than Jitte in enough situations to merit a spot, but it is definitely worth testing. If someone tests this out, please post your results.

Granted, it will come down a turn earlier than jitte.

But..... pay 3 mana to make another creature into nighthawk? Why not just pay 3 mana for a nighthawk (who also flys), and have two beaters instead of one that can get killed in responce to the activation?

Admitadly, I haven't tested it. But it doesn't seem like a good idea to me at the moment.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Are most people playing less than 4 Stalkers these days? 4 has worked well for me for quite some time, but I would consider going down to 3 for consistency. It is one of the most unanswerable creatures in Legacy, but the 3rd was is always a dead card, and you usually have to wait a bit to play the 2nd. Just wondering what people think about this.

[coraz86]

Are most people playing less than 4 Stalkers these days? 4 has worked well for me for quite some time, but I would consider going down to 3 for consistency. It is one of the most unanswerable creatures in Legacy, but the 3rd was is always a dead card, and you usually have to wait a bit to play the 2nd. Just wondering what people think about this.

Eva Green has such a low threat density that you really, really need all four. It's not that hard to play two in a game, actually, considering that one Dark Ritual will pay half the mana cost. You're also often running only maybe 30 actual permanents (4 bayous, 15 or 16 dudes, some number of swamps); you're always going to have fetchlands, Wastelands, Duress/Hymn, etc. in your yard. Playing two should never be a problem.

I played in a side event at PT-San Diego yesterday. 60 people fighting for power (turned out to be a Mox Emerald and a Mox Ruby). I went 4-2; I beat r/u Painter with CounterTop, Thresh, Fetchland Tendrils, and Dragon Stompy. I got beat by a weird variant of Aggro Loam (all I saw games 1 and 2 were Pridemage, Goyf, Bolt, and KotR; game three he rolled me literally with just LftL and KotR) and by Merfolk because I fucked up my math.

List;

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
3 Pox
3 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Pox
1 Vindicate


Vindicate was in the board because, somehow, I couldn't find a fourth K-Grip to save my life before the party began. I saw a lot of weird shit at Saturday's festivities--several people playing 43 Lands, some Stax, a bit of CounterTop--so I built for a controlling meta. Also, the Stronghold should be a third Scrubland, but I again couldn't get ahold of one before the tourney. (I guess I could have spent $90 on an FBB one, but I didn't really have that kind of bread laying around.)

Some thoughts;
--I used to not be a fan of Vindicate, because I felt like it thinned out your mana base too much and made the deck painfully vulnerable to Wasteland. I think, with the rise of planeswalkers, 'kill any damn thing you feel like' is too good to ignore. I'm no longer considering investing in Sinkholes, because Vindicate is that much better. I ran it anticipating having to kill random nonsense like anything in Stax, Jace/Elspeth/either Ajani in Landstill; it turned out to be both good for killing random things and good for cleaning up mid/late game.
--....which brings me to Pox. I don't know why people don't run Pox in Eva Green; I feel that speedy decks like this are the best-equipped to take advantage, and the combination of discard and other LD complements it very well. I won probably half my games on the back of Pox yesterday.
--I feel like the creature base of 4 Goyf/4 Tombstalker/4 Bob is not negotiable. I was happy with the three Hyppies yesterday, but it was definitely a control/combo meta (witness the top four of two Merfolk, one BGW Survival, and one Belcher). I'm not willing to give that slot to non-evasive creatures like Gatekeeper of Malakir, but Vampire Nighthawk is definitely an option, and I don't think that slot has One Right Answer.
--I ran Duress anticipating a spell-heavy meta and lucked out. I don't like the synergy between Thoughtseize and Pox, but Thoughtseize might help the Merfolk matchup.
--Does anyone know how to board against Merfolk? Pithing Needle on Vial didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would. I boarded EE because it covers a lot of ground (Dredge, Zoo, CounterTop, etc.), but it didn't help as much with Merfolk as I'd thought it would.
--I've never been happy at a tourney with four Pox main, but I think the fourth belongs in the board for combo. I completely molested ANT with it, and I'm not sure what else is good against them (doubly so if you wind up with Nighthawk main instead of Hyppie).

Thoughts and slander are welcome, of course.

[mujadaddy]

--....which brings me to Pox. I don't know why people don't run Pox in Eva Green; I feel that speedy decks like this are the best-equipped to take advantage, and the combination of discard and other LD complements it very well. I won probably half my games on the back of Pox yesterday.Pox rocks :smile:



--Does anyone know how to board against Merfolk? Pithing Needle on Vial didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would. I boarded EE because it covers a lot of ground (Dredge, Zoo, CounterTop, etc.), but it didn't help as much with Merfolk as I'd thought it would.Black/Green w/o Pernicious Deed?

[coraz86]

Black/Green w/o Pernicious Deed?

I feel like Deed is too mana-intensive. I guess I could try it in the board, since I typically take out Pox against Zoo and Aggro Loam. The flip side is that EE helps with Dredge, while Deed is like four turns too slow against Dredge (unless you happen to Ritual+Bayou turn two, but I don't like playing stuff in my board that's so situational). I'll give it a try and re-post when I get noticeable results.

[coraz86]

Black/Green w/o Pernicious Deed?

I feel like Deed is too mana-intensive. I guess I could try it in the board, since I typically take out Pox against Zoo and Aggro Loam. The flip side is that EE helps with Dredge, while Deed is like four turns too slow against Dredge (unless you happen to Ritual+Bayou turn two, but I don't like playing stuff in my board that's so situational). I'll give it a try and re-post when I get noticeable results.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@coraz86
I really like your list, and I agree with a lot of your views about this deck. I also think Vindicate has tested to be extremely good. As far as the Merfolk matchup goes, my SBing strategy is admittedly janky. There is nothing in my board that is directly targeted at Merfolk, since I consider this to already be a good matchup, probably around 60-40. I usualy end up taking out my Sinkholes for 2 Choke and 2 Gerrard's Verdict. These cards are meant for different matchups, but I think they are better than Sinkhole here. If they don't get a Vial or you Vindicate it, they are screwed from Choke. Additionally, the extra discard is nice.

[popeye79]

About merfolks.. you could try engineered plague. It can be cast turn one of a rit (vs dredge, not merfs-duress first), it's also very helpful against dredge (name zombie), and goblins. Possilbly darkdepths if you were to run into it (name vampires).

About tombstalker.... I understand fully that 2 can be played easily in a game. But many, MANY times, I've drawn 2, and even 3 WAY too early. I refuse to ever run more than 3 again. The subject of threat density can be adressed by adding.....

Abyssal prosecutor... I'm acutaly facinated by this card and am tring it out. It's been good so far, but I don't have a whole lot of testing under my belt just yet. I'm beginning to get concerned that 4 gatekeepers + 3 therapy +2 inocent blood may be overkill... not sure yet. Anyone want to comment on my list?


4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
4 abyssal prosecutor
4 gatekeep of malkir
1 terravore

4 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
4 hymn to torach
2 innocent blood
3 snuff out
4 dark ritual
4 sinkhole

4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
4 bayou
4 swamp

sb (in flux)
4 leyline of the void
2 extirpate
3 krosan grip
3 choke
3 engineered plague

[3ktor]

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Forest


I have to play Legacy since 2008...i came back and what i see ? zoo? merfolks ? goblins ?elves ? demon/farie/sea/dragon stompys' ? bant ? fish ? goyf sligh ? ugw aggro aggro aggro aggro...not even one pure control deck.. if there is no control or slow tempo decks , then is no room for a suicide black deck....

But! i believe in Eva Green..

Here comes my thoughts:

1) Dark Confi is no needed in eva green ( use loose your tempo..and cause of loss of life in such an aggro envi sure and you wont get win...)
2) 4 tombstalkers are not needed , 3 is the best
3) 4 nantuko shade are not needed , 3 is the best
4) Hypnotic specter ? hu ? in such a fast-tempo-aggro-creature based invironment ? 4 nighthawks asap.... ( pure control+pure combo decks are dead in legacy...tarmo and fetches for multicolour aggros ruined them :O )
5) snuff out is a good removal card and suits to this tempo..but not 4 , 2 or 3 is the best

When i saw all these deck you know what came instantly in my mind?

C O N T A G I O N O M F G

1) no confidants for 5 life loss
2) it cant kill tarmo...but if it puts a permanent counter -2/-1 on a kird ape + 1 counter on a goyf is bad ? your mobs will kill them!your nighthawk with 3 in toughness is overpower with contagion ;) or 2 counters on a goyf ? he will have 2 in attack only if a tribal card get in any graveyard LOL , in merfolks ? goblins ? elves ? vampires ? desaster or ? in enemies confidant + nantuko shade ? or in enemies tombstalker so your nighthawk block him in every attack face omfg... if you cast contagion on a creature equiped with jitte , jitte wont take counters rofl not even needs swamp to cast it ( if you have been blood moon before your first turn....) what ? mother of runes ? who to protect first WHO ? welder ? lavamancer ? you seriously going to snuff out them ? :O serra avenger becames 1/2 vigilance lofl.... who else left ? Qasali Pridemage ? meddlingmage ? Wild Nacatl ? icnorid tokens ? ball lightning ? mog fanatic ? red/white aggro ? yea let them come ! what can stop it ? affinity ? ornithopter ? kkk 2 Disciple of the Vault on the board , now what ? snuff out or edict them? you keep a nantuko shade in hand cause of the pithing needle on board ? BURN HIM + PAY 1 ^#$*#LIFE AND SEND BOTH DICIPLIE OF THE VAULT BACK HOME omfg ther is no need for seal/grip... the 4/3 flyer efreet in sea stomby lol ? he will pay 1 life in every turn lofl , what i forgot ? cannot be the target ? after contagion play a KEEPER to end this parody.....

NOW SERIOUSLY:
Contagion: with 1 card you can kill 2 - that's the point in a black based deck (you loose 1 more card..but you choose which is no need it anymore..and black has a lot in the middle game...sinkhole in early game ? if he has aready 2 creatures down OFC NO POINT FOR MANA DESRUPTION NOW !!! )
like hymn to tourach does-that's the whole point of discrard..to get card advantage and in the same time to ruin your opponents gameplay...that PULSE also do...very nice card i vote that too !
or you can kill 1 card and leave another almost dead....or you can kill none , and combat face comes soon ;)
in combination with enginereed plague ? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL 4 contagion + 4 eng plague can ruin every aggro deck in legacy now

.......so i m thinking something like that in MD:
2 Snuff out
3 Contagion
2 Pulse


ALSO:

i like BERSERK too much... it can kill an enemies creature with 1 mana..or it can pump your goyf for 4 ? 5 ? make him 10/6 trample ? or make tambstalker 10/5 trample flyer ? or nighthawk 4/3 flying , deathtouch , lifelink , trample ? lol ?
BERSERK can save your ass in many cases...think vs sligh... 5 life you and 10 the red...attack with tombstalker END OF STORY in turn 3 !
BERSERK can also balance your life loss with your aggro fat creature based suicide deck..think that if you dont expecting a berserk..you will keep tombstalker or goyf for block...becouse you just now that you wont catch it up!

THATS ALL , POST YOUR OPINION IN ALL THESE , THNX

[Clark Kant]

Is Abyssal Persecutor really superior enough to Grinning Demon to warrant playing cards specifically geared towards saccing it (Innocent Blood, Cabal Therapy)?

I don't think so.

I think in Pox, where the deck already plays Innocent Blood, Smallpox and on occasion, Pox and Gatekeeper of Malakir due to their synergy, the card makes sense. Outside of that deck, I'm not convinced.

It seems rather inconsistent. I could even see opponents countering your own Innocent Bloods and Gatekeepers to keep themselves in the game long enough to bring your life total to 0. The deck doesn't play enough sac outlets to justify this yet.

[sabaku_ryu]

Hey, I've found this deck and fell in love with it

Great great deck keep it up

[ccccck]

Arrogant Bloodlord 1BB
Creature - Vampire Knight
Whenever Arrogant Bloodlord blocks or becomes blocked by a creature with power 1 or less, destroy Arrogant Bloodlord at end of combat.
4/4

Found this new creature in the spoiler of ROE. It comes out at turn 1 with dark ritual and cannot be killed by a lightbolt.

[popeye79]

Arrogant Bloodlord 1BB
Creature - Vampire Knight
Whenever Arrogant Bloodlord blocks or becomes blocked by a creature with power 1 or less, destroy Arrogant Bloodlord at end of combat.
4/4

Found this new creature in the spoiler of ROE. It comes out at turn 1 with dark ritual and cannot be killed by a lightbolt.

It's just a worse version of a bad card that we already had access to. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch about. :tongue:

[coraz86]

Agreed. It's just kind of a fatty, with no evasion, which locks it into the slot currently occupied by meta calls like Hyppie and Gatekeeper. If it had flying (or even fear, for crying out loud), then it might be different, but it doesn't scream "include!" to me. At least Negator has trample.

[mmmetaphor]

Has anyone tested Nyxathid? Playing it probably dictates that you are also running Hypnotic Specters, thoughtseize, and hymn but this seems like a decent fattie that works better with Dark Confidant than Tombstalker. I've swapped it in for Tombstalker in my list and so far I love it.

Consider it in the following build:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper
4 Hyppie
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nyxathid

4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Dark Ritual

1 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp

[Aleksandr]

Nyxathid has no evasion and CounterTop can slowly kill him.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

When I first played this deck, I ran Nyxathids. AT the time I also ran 4 each of Hippie, TS, and Hymn. That said, he usually sat at 4/4. He was only bigger if I had the advantage anyway so he was just redundant. He wasn't a terrible choice, but he wasn't a great choice either.

[ccccck]

I am trying to build a the deck around Chalice of the Void. Chalice is really good against Zoo, counter-top and reanimator, which are the most popular top decks at current meta

Here is the decklist

Creatures (22)
- Tarmogoyf x4
- Tombstalker x4
- Hypnotic specter x4
- Vampire Nighthawk x4
- Shriekmaw x4
- Nantuko Shade x2

Other spells (16)
- Chalice of the Void x4
- Damnation x4
- Snuff Out x4
- Diabolic Edict x4

Lands (22)
- polluted delta x4
- Verdant Catacombs x4
- Bayou x4
- Swamp x5
- Bojuka Bog x4
- Volrath's Stronghold x1

Sideboards
- Krosan Grip x3
- Engineered Plague x4
- Leyline of the Void x4
- Extirpate x4


Playtesting against Counter-Top with progenitus
- around 60% win. Most of the creatures & removal spell in the deck can pass through the counter-top lock. The only problem is the progenitus.
nearly all the lose match-up was due to progenitus.

Playtesting against Zoo
- around 70% win. Save life total in early game is the key. Need to put down a turn 2 small goyf or shade to block no 2cc removal in hand. Life total need to be above 12 when I can have 4 mana to resolve damnation.

Playtesting against Reanimator
- around 70% lost at game 1 because Snuff out and Shriekmaw are dead cards against their "shroud" creatures. Game 2 & 3 80% win after changing the dead cards with extirpate and Leyline.

Playtesting against Melfork & Goblins
- no playtesting. But chalice is a dead card against these 2 decks. Just change it to Plague at game 2 & 3.

[Jon Stewart]

I like Arrogant Bloodlord more than Nantuko Shade.

Shade needs a ton of mana if you want to use him as a blocker or to keep him out of burn range or if you actually want to do a decent amount of damage with it.

Bloodlord does all of that without having to keep mana open.

[ccccck]

I like Arrogant Bloodlord more than Nantuko Shade.

Shade needs a ton of mana if you want to use him as a blocker or to keep him out of burn range or if you actually want to do a decent amount of damage with it.

Bloodlord does all of that without having to keep mana open.

Agree, I put the 2 shade is for recurring with stronghold in the late game. But the result is not convincing. I would choose to recur Shriekmaw rather than the shade. And both shade and bloodlord have no evasion!
I am trying to replace with Jitte.

[Vacrix]

I like Arrogant Bloodlord more than Nantuko Shade.

Shade needs a ton of mana if you want to use him as a blocker or to keep him out of burn range or if you actually want to do a decent amount of damage with it.

Bloodlord does all of that without having to keep mana open.
But to be fair, an active vial makes Vampire Bloodlord shit his pants, likely bloodily since he's a vampire. He also can't get bigger than the avg. goyf. I'd consider a split at best since Shades are meh in multiples, but not an exchange one for the other.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I think Arrogant Bloodlord is another type of mid range creature thats very situational just like nyxathid sometimes good sometimes crap.

I've been searching for a midrange creature that could help tarmo in finishing games but i sadly i still haven't found one. Im still running nyxathid in my B/g list.

[Jon Stewart]

Bloodlord is fantastic against the Zoo matchup. We have Snuff Out (and Shriekmaw) to deal with Goyf. And Bloodlord deals with everything else that the deck plays. Other creatures like Vampire Nighthawk are simply to small to even kill a Nacatl and survive.

Other than goblins, no one really plays 1 powered creatures anymore. Well I guess there is Cursecatcher but even that gets pumped by all the Merfolk lords so it's almost always a 2/2.

Nyxathid can't be ritualed out on turn one to start beating, Bloodlord can.

And a turn one ritual bloodlord followed by a turn two Sinkhole or Hymn and a turn three Vindicate or Snuff Out or Gatekeeper or something can basically get your opponent into single digits without them keeping anything on the board and with you not even breaking a sweat or overextending.

[Vacrix]

Well DnT, UW Tempo, Goblins, and Merfolk run vial and creatures with 1 power. Those were the matchups I was referring to. It looks good, I agree, but Shade is too strong to cut completely IMO.

[Jon Stewart]

That's still just a 1 for 1 trade.

Also, to do that, those decks would have to leave their Vial set at 1 mana. While most of those decks would much much prefer to have a Vial set at 2 or 3 instead. You can just wait till they up their Vial counter if this worried you so. Or you can always Snuff Out in response too.

I'm still thinking about how awesome Bloodlord is against Zoo, and how much stronger Bloodlord is against Zoo than Nantuko Shade is, and Zoo is a matchup that I seem to face more than DnT, UW Tempo, and Goblins combined.

Merfolk is a matchup where I would really prefer to hold a Bloodlord than a Shade. Even if they 1 for 1 trade Cursecatcher for Bloodlord, I can breathe a sigh of relief that that Cursecatcher won't be screwing over the Sinkhole or Hymn that I wanted to play on my second main phase.

[Vacrix]

Well if you play him early with a Dark Ritual, then its not a 1 for 1 trade, and if you wait to attack, he might realize this and drop some more lands, keeping the vial at 1. I guess if you run into Zoo more than by all means play 4, I agree with you there. Shade is nuts in the late game though. I'll be keeping at least 1 in my build. Bloodlord is certainly the best thing WoTC gave Black Aggro variants in quite a while, and you provided a convincing argument for why I should run 4, so I will.

[Jon Stewart]

What do you guys think of Inquisition and Consuming Vapors

I love that Consuming Vapors 2 for 1s your opponent, gains you life, and gets around counters, and deals with Progenitus and Shroud creatures that Reanimator plays.


I think Inquisition is a fantastic replacement for Thoughtseize and Duress.

Duress sucked especially in top deck mode in that it could whiff if your opp is just left with lands and creatures after your Smallpoxes and such. Plus it didn't discard goyfs when thats what you most wanted to discard.

Thoughtseize sucked in that it shocked you and your life.

But Inquisition is solid. I think lots of black aggro decks would play it too, possibly alongside Reanimate and Thoughtseize.

[Vacrix]

Inquisition is terrible both as a offensive and a defensive spell. It misses too much to be good in legacy when you could be playing disruption with better conditions like Duress, mad card advantage with Cabal Therapy, or a little life loss with Thoughseize. We already have 3 good options. The 4th is mediocre when you could be playing the other 3. Consuming Vapors is indeed interesting. The problem is that the opponent gets to choose so the gain life ability isn't always going to be effective, and it costs 4, often a little too much when we could just be playing Damnation. In that sense, the only draw the card has going for it is the gain life factor, and it hits fewer creatures than Damnation.

[Jon Stewart]

Damnation isn't one sided. It hits your creatures two. Vapors is a one sided Damnation that gains life, and gets around a counterspell (against decks like Reanimator that only have one creature you really need to kill).

Duress kind of sucks in that often, the card that you want to make them discard is Goyf.

Also Duress often whiffs against stuff like Goblins and other aggro decks.

Almost every single legacy deck plays over 90% 3cc or less cards, so Inquisition never whiffs.

Playing Thoughtseize is like giving your opponent a free shock.

Also, if the deck can play both Inquisition and Thoughtseize + removal, it could and should probably also play a Reanimate or two.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Playing Thoughtseize is like giving your opponent a free shock.

I never thought of it that way. I'm glad they printed that Evolving Wilds so now i can run four of those and four terramorphic expanse and I can take out four Verdant Catacombs and four Marsh Flats.

How does Vapors get around a counterspell?

Inquisition doesn't take out FoW, NO, Tendrils, Warrens, etc... the REAL threats to this deck. Let them play creatures. I can kill creatures. I cannot stop FoW, Progen(unless I nut-draw Gatekeeper) and I can't do much against a combo that has all the cards it needs to go Boom.

[Vacrix]

Well I guess it is one sided. Even then, killing 2 creatures won't stop an onslaught of goblins or elves. Gaining life is only useful against decks with high toughness, so Zoo and Merfolk (if they have lords that is). It often won't stop Prog either.

As I understand Rebound, it doesn't get around countermagic. Rebound says, exile this spell as it resolves. If it gets countered it doesn't resolve, and Rebound doesn't trigger.
Sure Duress can't hit Goyf. So run Thoughtseize. I agree, Inquisition never whiffs, but when your opponent is holding that Moat and you are holding that Inquisition, you'd rather have the Thoughtseize trust me. It also doesn't take Force, Ad Nausuem, Belcher, EtW, Dream Lols, etc. Pretty impo stuff basically. Playing Thoughseize should protect you. Thats the point. Even taking Goyf for 2 life is a great play but often you want to hit Force, and when you don't its not a protection spell anymore.

[Scopeye]

Hi. I have been playing the deck for awhile and want to contribute some.
I want to talk about some cards and what I think about them. I play in a goblin-folk-zoo-ant-reanimator-ant and some enchatress heavy meta.

Nyxathid: No evasion hurts it alot and to be good it has to be played together with hyppie which is unfortunetly weak(sometimes even with turn 1 ritual play). Brainstorm basically kills it. He is generally at best a 3mana inconsistent 5/5.

Sinkhole: Thanks enemyfetches wasteland became weaker therefore so is sinkhole. If you don't have it in your opening it is basically a dead card (unless you play against lands or prison).

Hyppie: Unfortunetly he is not the powerhouse it used to be. Most decks can recover from a 10turn clock.

Maelstrom Pulse: I am never sad to see them in my opening even in multiples because I know I will always have a use for them. And it is good for getting rid of multiple gobos/folk etc.

Smother: It is good but most of the time I found myself keeping mana open and not making actual plays because of smother.

Nantuko Shade: He is good but I really hate to see it early in my opening or multiples. So I prefer 2 or max 3 ıf you really want to.

Umezawa's Jitte: Great against everything. 2-3
Vampire Nighthawk: I am undecided about these. They are like the new hyppie to me but against aggro instead of control. It has great abilities but has the same problem, It is a 10 turn cloack.

Confidant: It is a high risk-reward card, It can give you good gas but it can kill you with fetches-stalker-seize-snuff outs.

Goyf-Stalker-Snuffout-ritual-hymnn-seize: I dont think I really need to discuss about these.

Now the problem I have is other than stalker-goyf I don't have a very fast cloack. Shade is good but needs too much mana investment. Unfortunetly G/B don't have any better unconditional beaters. there are 3 cards that I consider.
Doran: Unlike nhyxatid, it is a consistent 5/5. Needs a light splash which opens up for wasteland plays.

Knight of the reliquary: Can be even bigger than doran or goyf for that matter. Needs a small white splash and can get smaller with each Stalker you cast.

Terravore: This is my favorite and next in line to test. 2 of these can be a good supplement. Has the possibility to be huge with so many fetches-wastes around. Double green is still easier than adding white to the mana mix. Stalker can shrink terravores.

In one of the earlier posts there were mentions of berserk and contagion can be intresting. I will definetly have to try them as well.

Sideboard.
Engineered Plague: 4 of is a must to battle gobos-folk-elves and still usefull agains dredge.

Sadistic sacrament: My new favorite sideboard card. Casting this can secure a win against certain decks. New ANTs run 1-2 Tendrils without wishes, Can grab belchers, Enchantress runs 3 win cons, Can grab Ionas from Reanimator and other random decks I cant think of right now.

Perish: Always good to have against Bant, Zoos, Nat order, elves, Survival.

Leyline: No need to explain

Faerie Mecabre- Coffin Purge: Very useful against reanimator and maybe randomly good against Goyf calculations.

Diabolic edict: I don't think they are good enough for main but can be good against reanimator if you can stop them from casting Iona.

Extirpate: I don't like it personally.

Chalice of the Void: very good against zoo and combo, depends on the meta.

[ccccck]

I like perish! It is a 3cc one side god against countertop and bant. And it kills progenitus and pass through counterbalance!

[Plague Sliver]

I'd like to get some advice on sideboarding strategy.

I'm running a more conventional Eva build without Maelstrom Pulse or Gatekeeper. I'm going maindeck +2x Duress to have a better game vs. Combo decks. A bit of a split between Specter/Nighthawk as a concession to aggro, and wanting to play 4 Snuff Outs (ultimate tempo card, obv).

Maindeck:

4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole

4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
3x Hypnotic Specter
2x Vampire Nighthawk

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
6x Swamp

Sideboard:

2x Jitte
2x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague

My sideboarding strategy is as follows:

NO Bant / Countertop
+3 Grip
-3 Hypnotic Specter

Life
+4 E-Plague (Kor), +2 Needle (Nomads en-Kor, Shaman en-Kor), +2 Jitte
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Nighthawk, -2 Duress

Painter
+2 Needle (Grindstone), +3 Grip
-4 Sinkhole, -1 Nighthawk

Ichorid
+4 Leyline, +4 E-Plague (Illusion, Zombie, Horror)
-4 Snuff Out, -4 Hymn

Breakfast
+4 Leyline, +2 Needle (Nomads en-Kor, Shaman en-Kor)
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Nighthawk

Goblins
+4 E-Plague (goblins), +2 Jitte
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Duress

Merfolk
+4 E-Plague (merfolk), +2 Needle (Vial, Jitte), +2 Jitte
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Duress, -1 Shade, -1 Specter

Zoo
+2 Jitte, +2 Needle (Lavamancer, Pridemage, Jitte)
-4 Sinkhole

Landstill
+3 Grip, +2 Needle (Engineered Explosives, Mishra's Factory, Jace)
-1 Shade, -2 Nighthawk, -2 Duress

Stax
+4 Leyline, +3 Grip
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Nighthawk, -1 Snuff Out

Faerie/Dragon Stompy
+3 Grip
-2 Nighthawk, -1 Duress

Reanimator
+4 Leyline
-4 Snuff Out

Train Wreck
+3 Grip, +2 Needle (Pernicious Deed, Staff of Domination, Oona)
-1 Shade, -2 Nighthawk, -2 Duress

Survival
+4 Leyline, +2 Needle (Survival of the Fittest)
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Nighthawk

ANT/TES
+2 Grip, +2 Needle (Sensei's Divining Top, Lotus Petal)
-4 Snuff Out

Belcher
+4 E-Plague (Goblin), +2 Needle (Goblin Charbelcher, Lotus Petal), +2 Grip
-4 Sinkhole, -4 Snuff Out

43 Land
+4 Leyline, +3 Grip
-4 Snuff Out, -2 Nighthawk, -1 Thoughtseize

UW Tempo
+4 E-Plague (Human), +2 Needle (Jitte, Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer)
-4 Sinkhole, -2 Duress

Elves
+4 E-Plague (Elf), +2 Jitte
-4 Sinkhole, -1 Shade, -1 Hypnotic Specter

Rock
Nothing

Canadian Thresh
Nothing

Any suggestions as to my sideboarding strategy? Perhaps 6 1 CC discard effects are too many MD but I really want to see a T1 play. Otherwise waiting for a T2 Hymn limits my chances. There is a fair amount of Goblins/Merfolk in the meta, so I'm finding it tough to cut Engineered Plague and find room for that 3rd Pithing Needle.

[Cavius The Great]

I agree with everyone who's running Maelstrom Pulse. It's better than Pernicious Deed in this deck.

[Cavius The Great]

How come no one's running Isoa, Enlightened Bushi? That guy blocks Goyf all day long, and he can't be Force of Willed, which is a big problem for this deck.

[Jon Stewart]

Cavius? Is that a joke account?

If so, could you please start using card tags so I don't have to google all the random cards cards you keep bringing up.

Like this...

Isao, Enlightened Bush

[Plague Sliver]

I hope that wasn't a troll...

If it's serious, my thoughts on Isao are (this is without playtesting):

1. This deck doesn't want to play defense. Being able to regenerate isn't all that hot.
2. You can't power him out via Dark Ritual.
3. What would you take out to make room for him? At the 3 CC slot, you've already got Pulse/Specter/Nighthawk.

[sdematt]

Seems like a troll to me.You know what blocks a ton of creatures all day long and kills them afterwards? Nighthawk, and looks, it's also in the three-slot. I don't think it's a troll account, since it's back from 2006, unless someone made an account all those years ago, and has kept it for the sole purpose of trollling. If so, well done.

-Matt

[ccccck]

How come no one's running Isoa, Enlightened Bushi? That guy blocks Goyf all day long, and he can't be Force of Willed, which is a big problem for this deck.

Even if it can be countered, why should I counter a 2/1 using FOW?
Counter top like people to defend, so that they can have time to draw a natural order!

[Black Mass]

Even if it can be countered, why should I counter a 2/1 using FOW?
Counter top like people to defend, so that they can have time to draw a natural order!

You are forgetting that it's a LEGENDARY 2/1, so it HAS to be good and a must counter... :rolleyes:

[DownSyndromeKarl]

wow, so many bit the bait.

[Black Mass]

No, I think most got it, but it's fun to state the obvious ;-)

[Scopeye]

After more testing I am convinced that 2-3 Doran is very very good for the deck. Mana base gets a little more shaky against wasteland but 3 Dorans really add to your threat count.

[Deady]

That's nice.

You can try Lotus petal; it's solid against wastelands.

If I'd run 2x Doran I'd play a mana base like this:

2x lotus petal
2x scrubland
3x marsh flats
3x bayou
4x verdant cc
3x wasteland
4x swamp
------------------

As you can notice I'd choose for -1 wasteland; at times it can be a problem running the full set in a 3-colored build. I don't like it, but that's just my opinion (nothing wrong if you think different about it). The list still plays 4x swamp.


Lotus petal :

- is immune to wastelands.
- feeds stalker AND goyf.
- gives you more options, depending on the game. You can choose whatever kind of color you need at that particular moment, which can be crucial at times (for tempo reasons as well).

[throst54]

You pull 2 Ritual for 2 Petal or what?

And is there any other white that you play other than Doran?
I think that Stp Sets us back too much, PtE is counterproductive, Vindicate just clogs the 3cc spot *and* we dont need more LD.

The only other white spells I think that would be worth running are Gerrard's Verdict and/or Orim's Chant.

[Scopeye]

That's nice.

You can try Lotus petal; it's solid against wastelands.

If I'd run 2x Doran I'd play a mana base like this:

2x lotus petal
2x scrubland
3x marsh flats
3x bayou
4x verdant cc
3x wasteland
4x swamp
------------------

As you can notice I'd choose for -1 wasteland; at times it can be a problem running the full set in a 3-colored build. I don't like it, but that's just my opinion (nothing wrong if you think different about it). The list still plays 4x swamp.


Lotus petal :

- is immune to wastelands.
- feeds stalker AND goyf.
- gives you more options, depending on the game. You can choose whatever kind of color you need at that particular moment, which can be crucial at times (for tempo reasons as well).


Thanks for Advice. I never thought of Petal before for some reason. Will give it a try.

I can agree with you on wastelands there are times I just wished they were another fetchland. But on the other hand there were times that lets you get ahead. I need more testing to decide if I want to drop them or not.


You pull 2 Ritual for 2 Petal or what?

And is there any other white that you play other than Doran?
I think that Stp Sets us back too much, PtE is counterproductive, Vindicate just clogs the 3cc spot *and* we dont need more LD.

The only other white spells I think that would be worth running are Gerrard's Verdict and/or Orim's Chant.

No I don't run any other white spell. I like the shell of Eva Green and the only reason I run Doran is bacuse I needed another creature with a punch. Hawks-Hippies-Gatekeepers just didnt win fast enough.

I generally have no problems removing creatures so no need for StP-PtE.

Too much focus on discard means weaker mid-late game top decks. I find Seize+Hymn enough.

I personally find Maelstrom to be better than Vindicate because I don't run Sinkhole anymore and wasteland has lots some of its power since the printing of enemy fetches. So getting rid of multiple permaments are much better IMO then a single one.

I can only image running Chant in AnT matchup and for that I have 4 Sadistic sacrament.



What do you guys run as Reanimator hate? I used to run Leyline but I am very dissapointed how easy it is for reanimaor player to play around it.
I am thinking of switching to Macabre+Coffin Purge or Run my own Reanimates to steal their creatures.

[ccccck]

Thanks for Advice. I never thought of Petal before for some reason. Will give it a try.

I can agree with you on wastelands there are times I just wished they were another fetchland. But on the other hand there were times that lets you get ahead. I need more testing to decide if I want to drop them or not.



No I don't run any other white spell. I like the shell of Eva Green and the only reason I run Doran is bacuse I needed another creature with a punch. Hawks-Hippies-Gatekeepers just didnt win fast enough.

I generally have no problems removing creatures so no need for StP-PtE.

Too much focus on discard means weaker mid-late game top decks. I find Seize+Hymn enough.

I personally find Maelstrom to be better than Vindicate because I don't run Sinkhole anymore and wasteland has lots some of its power since the printing of enemy fetches. So getting rid of multiple permaments are much better IMO then a single one.

I can only image running Chant in AnT matchup and for that I have 4 Sadistic sacrament.



What do you guys run as Reanimator hate? I used to run Leyline but I am very dissapointed how easy it is for reanimaor player to play around it.
I am thinking of switching to Macabre+Coffin Purge or Run my own Reanimates to steal their creatures.

The mana base is not stable if you add white just for Doran. Unstable mana base affects the tempo of the deck and makes the deck slow. Creatures of Eva Green is more than enough for choose, I use Tarmogoyf/Tombstakler/Hawk/Bloodlord 16 beaters are enough already.
You really need sinkhole to beat ANT. Beating ANT is easy, just use chalice of the void, a turn 1 or 2 hymn/sinkhole/chalice for 1/ hyppie can beat the deck.

[ccccck]

Macabre and coffin is not good for reanimator hate. They need to found a chain of vapor if you put down an turn 0 Leyline. The Leyline deley their set up from turn 1-2 to turn 3-4, which is important since you can start beating them to around 12 life when they set up.
For Macabre & coffin, they can just duress/throughtseize, which is their usual action before they set up.
Also, chalice of the void for 1 stops half of the deck in reanimator.

[John Rohan]

My first post in this thread. I've read through this thread for ideas, since I play a B/G deck which is similar to Eva Green.

A few questions:

Has anyone tried Creakwood Liege? It's a little slow to get out, but in playtesting, he's been a hell of a lot better than I expected.
You might think: "so what, he's a 2/2 creature that makes 1/1 tokens". But no, he creates 3/3 tokens, due to his own ability. If you put two lieges on the board, they crank out two 5/5 tokens each turn. They also pump up all your other creatures, making it feel more like an Elf or Merfolk deck. He is vulnerable, and even dies to Grim Lavamancer, but if he stays alive even just two full turns he is still worth it.

Also, how about Imp's Mischief? I'm torn on this card. On the one hand, I hate that I have to hold back 2 mana to use him. On the other hand, it acts as a counter-counterspell, and there are so many other wild ways it can win you the game that it's hard to count. For example, you can force a player to hit one of his own creatures with StP, or Reanimate your small creature instead of the Iona he was going for. In a mirror match, you can force your opponent to Sinkhole one of his own lands instead of yours.

Why no one uses Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as a 1 or 2 of? It makes your wastelands more useful, and if you're low on life you can just tap your fetchlands for mana instead of having to sacrifice them.

Wasn't Life from the Loam once popular in this deck? Why no more? Even if the opponent counters it, you can still get it back. It also dedges more cards, making Tombstalker and Goyf better.

[lordofthepit]

My first post in this thread. I've read through this thread for ideas, since I play a B/G deck which is similar to Eva Green.

A few questions:

Has anyone tried Creakwood Liege? It's a little slow to get out, but in playtesting, he's been a hell of a lot better than I expected.
You might think: "so what, he's a 2/2 creature that makes 1/1 tokens". But no, he creates 3/3 tokens, due to his own ability. If you put two lieges on the board, they crank out two 5/5 tokens each turn. They also pump up all your other creatures, making it feel more like an Elf or Merfolk deck. He is vulnerable, and even dies to Grim Lavamance, but if he stays alive even just two full turns he is still worth it.

Also, how about Imp's Mischief? I'm torn on this card. On the one hand, I hate that I have to hold back 2 mana to use him. On the other hand, it acts as a counter-counterspell, and there are so many other wild ways it can win you the game that it's hard to count. For example, you can force a player to hit one of his own creatures with StP, or ]Reanimate your small creature instead of the Iona he was going for. In a mirror match, you can force your opponent to Sinkhole one of his own lands instead of yours.

Why no one uses Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as a 1 or 2 of? It makes your wastelands more useful, and if you're low on life you can just tap your fetchlands for mana instead of having to sacrifice them.

Wasn't Life from the Loam once popular in this deck? Why no more? Even if the opponent counters it, you can still get it back. It also dedges more cards, making Tombstalker and Goyf better.

I'm not aware of any Eva Green deck that uses Life from the Loam. It's a very tempo-oriented deck that can't sit back to cast Loam, and a lot of your other card suggestions wouldn't fit for that same reason. However, I think there's more room to explore in other mid-range B/g decks, especially in Pox, where there was discussion of decks that used Urborg and Loam.

[Plague Sliver]

Just posted a tournament report where I used Eva Green. Check it out here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17511-Eva-Green-Makes-3-2-Showing-at-Mox-Tournament-in-Vancouver-British-Columbia

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Why no one uses Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as a 1 or 2 of? It makes your wastelands more useful, and if you're low on life you can just tap your fetchlands for mana instead of having to sacrifice them.


I have no idea. I'm going to swap out a swamp for one right now. I really have no idea why this would be a bad idea. aside from maybe helping an opponent who needs black, or doesnt want to fetch...hmmm...ill test it

[MikeyFlowers]

Hi guys, our thread has kind of run out of steam so I figure might as well contribute something. This is my decklist which I'm quite happy with. I think I want to change the sideboard a little though. I'm thinking about losing the 4x Engineered Plague for maybe two Pithing Needles and two Reanimates. Or maybe two Reanimates, a Karakas, and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Or how about a Needle, Reanimate, Karakas, Urborg. I'm having trouble with getting shutdown by Iona, Shield of Emeria and combo decks going off before I can disrupt them. Any suggestions on dealing with combo? How about Iona? Juzam Djinn is non-negotiable, ever since his cameo on the fourth-edition booster boxes he's earned permanent celebrity. There were three of them in the deck 'till Abyssal Persecutor got printed.

Lands
4x Bayou
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Creatures
2x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Juzam Djinn
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
3x Vampire Nighthawk

Instants
4x Dark Ritual
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Snuff Out

Sorcery
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
2x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
2x Reanimate

[ccccck]

Hi guys, our thread has kind of run out of steam so I figure might as well contribute something. This is my decklist which I'm quite happy with. I think I want to change the sideboard a little though. I'm thinking about losing the 4x Engineered Plague for maybe two Pithing Needles and two Reanimates. Or maybe two Reanimates, a Karakas, and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Or how about a Needle, Reanimate, Karakas, Urborg. I'm having trouble with getting shutdown by Iona, Shield of Emeria and combo decks going off before I can disrupt them. Any suggestions on dealing with combo? How about Iona? Juzam Djinn is non-negotiable, ever since his cameo on the fourth-edition booster boxes he's earned permanent celebrity. There were three of them in the deck 'till Abyssal Persecutor got printed.

Lands
4x Bayou
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Creatures
2x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Juzam Djinn
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
3x Vampire Nighthawk

Instants
4x Dark Ritual
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Snuff Out

Sorcery
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
2x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
2x Reanimate

Iona is very strong! You need to prevent it to hit the board. You already have leyline x4 to do that. Reanimate is a sorcery and you usually cannot steal their Iona because they will do entome and reanimate at the same turn. Add some copies of Faerie Macabre to the sideboard if reanimator is very common in your meta. Faerie Macabre works very well to fight reanimator as they usually use duress rather than throughtseize.
You can defect combo if you have 2 copies of Hymn + 1 early beater in your opening hand. You know this is difficult! I use chalice of the void to fight combo. Setting a chalice for 1 stop their dark rituals and Mystical tutors.

[aznepyon7]

What is the consensus on using Smallpox as a slot in Eva Green? If played properly I can see it as a very powerful card because it is a land, hand, and creature removal - exactly what Eva Green does.

This is what I'm running.

Creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate (not sure)

Thoughts:

Sylvan Library worth a slot?

Duress instead of Inquisition?

What can I do about Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins? I heard Chalice is supposed to be very effective against Zoo.

[ccccck]

What is the consensus on using Smallpox as a slot in Eva Green? If played properly I can see it as a very powerful card because it is a land, hand, and creature removal - exactly what Eva Green does.

This is what I'm running.

Creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate (not sure)

Thoughts:

Sylvan Library worth a slot?

Duress instead of Inquisition?

What can I do about Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins? I heard Chalice is supposed to be very effective against Zoo.

I love smallpox as well and it is still on my test list. The sacrifice effect on lands is really good as it can stop opponent from building up mana with fetchlands (your sinkhole and wasteland cannot deal with fetchlands as it can activate in response).
But there are some problems on playtesting on smallpox,
1) Eva green always need 2 black mana, smallpox make the your manabase more unstable than the opponents unless you add more lands to your deck
2) I will stop putting turn one creature if I have smallpox in my opening hand. But it make me lost tempo when my turn 2 smallpox is countered and this can happen more than I expected due to the presence of daze!

ROE already gave you the solution on Zoo, which is Arrogant Bloodlord and Consuming Vapors. And I still love chalice as well ^^

[aznepyon7]

Has anyone tried Abyssal Persecutor extensively? I usually just stick to 4x Tombstalkers but I'm open to new options.

[jazzykat]

With combo dealt a sever blow, I am interested if there are any new developments.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

see, i didnt think of Combo as a threat, not with 4x Hymns and 4x Thoughtseize. I mean, yeah, I've lost to it, but a majority of the time, I have the leg up.

[MikeyFlowers]

About Abyssal Persecutor, I think the card is fun as it's a Demon and a really cool one at that but what I'm noticing (albeit after not much play) is that he's pretty tough to make good use of at four casting cost. The problem is that in my deck if I don't draw a dark ritual and I need to use a wasteland or two offensively getting to four mana can be difficult. By the time I get to four hopefully I'm within a turn or two of winning and at that point why play the Persecutor? I play nine spells that I could off him to but oftentimes I will have used them offensively while drawing down my opponent's life and then see dilemma number one etc. These I guess are just reasons why I don't like him. Of course if I were to have drawn a hand which would allow me to drop him turn two and smash face with my 6/6 flying trampler for a few turns before sac'ing him in more games then I'd feel differently. If I took him out I'd probably replace the two with some combination of Maelstrom Pulse, Vampire Nighthawk, Juzam Djinn, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Snuff Out... umm, what else? Maybe pull one and replace it with that Maelstrom Pulse. I'm going to leave both in for now, I think he's sick and sick cards are what make my deck fun.

About combo, I definitely lost to combo a lot. I could oftentimes win one game out of three but drawing enough discard before he went off two out of three games proved extremely difficult. My deck splits it's disruption over creatures, lands, and discard though. Maybe if I dedicated more spots to discard those matches would have gone more favorably. I just got my sideboard to a point where I was pretty happy with it then they go and gimp re-animator and now I don't know what I think. What are other people going to do with their boards to face the future? Here's my current list:

Lands
Bayou x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Forest x1
Polluted Delta x2
Swamp x5
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth x1
Verdant Catacombs x4
Wasteland x4

Creatures
Abyssal Persecutor x2
Gatekeeper of Malakir x3
Juzam Djinn x1
Tarmogoyf x4
Tombstalker x2
Vampire Nighthawk x3

Instants
Dark Ritual x4
Diabolic Edict x1

Sorcery
Consuming Vapors x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Maelstrom Pulse x2
Pox x1
Sinkhole x4
Thoughtseize x4

Sideboard
Basilisk Collar x1
Choke x2
Faerie Macabre x2
Karakas x1
Krosan Grip x2
Leyline of the Void x4
Pithing Needle x2
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth x1

[Neuad]

My friend told me eva green does great in our area, and seeing as goblins has lost alot of its steam recently with new horizons and zoo. . .I think this might be a fun deck.

Looking through the past page or 2 I saw what was popular, took a deck list and edited it as I saw fun, and now I come to the experts with my finished list.

Pretty standard? Any major changes you would make?

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Tried it out, wasn't a huge fan of it. Sure its nice. .but I'd prefer just to have an extra swamp.

I took out some of the lands and fetches, but I'm still running 21.

I wasn't a huge fan of the first version I played on MWS with Pox/Smallpox, so I took that out and added Specters.

I'm not too sure about the Persecutors still. They are good but I'm thinking I'd like 4 of Gatekeepers and Nighthawks better. Maybe a persecutor sideboard if I had room.



// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
1 [ROE] Forest (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [DDE] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse


Thanks in advance <3

[Plague Sliver]

My friend told me eva green does great in our area, and seeing as goblins has lost alot of its steam recently with new horizons and zoo. . .I think this might be a fun deck.

Looking through the past page or 2 I saw what was popular, took a deck list and edited it as I saw fun, and now I come to the experts with my finished list.

Pretty standard? Any major changes you would make?

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Tried it out, wasn't a huge fan of it. Sure its nice. .but I'd prefer just to have an extra swamp.

I took out some of the lands and fetches, but I'm still running 21.

I wasn't a huge fan of the first version I played on MWS with Pox/Smallpox, so I took that out and added Specters.

I'm not too sure about the Persecutors still. They are good but I'm thinking I'd like 4 of Gatekeepers and Nighthawks better. Maybe a persecutor sideboard if I had room.



// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
1 [ROE] Forest (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [DDE] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse


Thanks in advance <3

If you're running 3x Gatekeeper you don't need 4x removal spells. I'd cut an Edict.

The 1x Pulse seems kind of random.

You can cut the singleton Forest from the deck and replace it with a fetch-land. I know you're only running 2x Tombstalker but you still want to get him out as soon as you draw him.

Otherwise looks pretty good. I'm not really sold that Persecutor is better than Tombstalker, given that Tombstalker is 2 CC in most games. Would be interesting to see how your playtesting goes.

[Neuad]

If you're running 3x Gatekeeper you don't need 4x removal spells. I'd cut an Edict.

The 1x Pulse seems kind of random.

You can cut the singleton Forest from the deck and replace it with a fetch-land. I know you're only running 2x Tombstalker but you still want to get him out as soon as you draw him.

Otherwise looks pretty good. I'm not really sold that Persecutor is better than Tombstalker, given that Tombstalker is 2 CC in most games. Would be interesting to see how your playtesting goes.

-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Forest
+2 Polluted Delta

-2 Abyssal Persecutors
+1 Maelstorm Pulse
+1 Tombstalker

Look good?

[Plague Sliver]

-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Forest
+2 Polluted Delta

-2 Abyssal Persecutors
+1 Maelstorm Pulse
+1 Tombstalker

Look good?

Looks good however you may want to try the Persecutors and see how they work out for you. I haven't playtested it yet, so it's possible they work out great. Plus you can fuel it quickly with the Rituals.

I don't like to dismiss cards without trying them out first.

But otherwise I like the 2x Pulse and 3x Tombstalker. If you were going to make room for Persecutors I would suggest cutting some Nighthawks. Nighthawks are great vs. Merfolk, not so great vs. Zoo.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm a firm believer that in Legacy you need at least 1x of each basic. Dropping the forest could be damning if your opp his just enough Wastes.

[Neuad]

Playing around with it in theory, and a bit on MWS I've settled on

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [DDE] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy



I really like this build, with Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy. Then Therapys flashback to get rid of Persecutor uncounterably.

I don't know if I want to make room for a 4th persecutor, or remove 1 and add a 4th Gatekeeper, but so far I've done alright with this build.

[Bluemagex2517]

a report

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18089-Bgw-Midrange-at-Jupiter-Games-6-26

[ccccck]

Will this M11 card have a place in Eva green?

Phylactery Lich
Creature - Zombie
As Phylactery Lich enters the battlefield, put a Phylactery counter on an artifact you control.
Phylactery Lich is indestructible.
When you control no permanents with phylactery counters on them, sacrifice Phylactery Lich.
5/5

[DownSyndromeKarl]

no.

Where would it's counter go? I've seen some people run Jitte, but that seems pretty weak. Opps are going to be apt to kill the Jitte quick anyway, why make it a bigger target?

[Bluemagex2517]

Will this M11 card have a place in Eva green?

Phylactery Lich
Creature - Zombie
As Phylactery Lich enters the battlefield, put a Phylactery counter on an artifact you control.
Phylactery Lich is indestructible.
When you control no permanents with phylactery counters on them, sacrifice Phylactery Lich.
5/5

You should mention that it's CC is BBB, that's kind of important. Obviously a 5/5 indestructable creture for 3 is pretty good. Lets consider the drawback. You have to have a artifact in play and that artifact has to stay in play. So you have to play artifacts. Jitte and top have been main decked before and it's not a stretch to maindeck them again. First problem I see is that you'll never be able to draw a card with top while this card is out. Not the biggest deal, but definately weighs against the card. Second, you'll want to play probably 2 jitte and 3 tops. That really isn't enough to support this guy. Vault of wispers seems like an option, but it makes you more vunrable to wasteland, and with this guy out wasteland is a blowout against you. Darksteel citidle with urborg, towm of Yawgamoth out seems better as far as not getting blown out by wasteland, but it's a 3 card combo for a guy that doesn't have evasion seems weak. This is definately true when the combo makes your mana weaker. Furthermore, your always going to have to board this guy out for fear of getting 2 for 1ed to any artifact hate. Next, lets look at what indestuctibility really means in modern legacy. For starters most legacy decks run StP or Path as spot removal. Both care nothing about indestructiblity. He does dodge burn spells, but just being a 5/5 allows him to dodge most burn spells 1 for 1, so we might better say he dodges the double burn spell. He does not die in combat. He battles well with most creatures, but sometimes they will be too big and he doesn't have evasion. In those circumstances he does block indefinately against non evasion creatures. Edict effects like swords and paths still get rid of him as well. So lets look as individual MU's and see where this guy can help out. Merfolk: no spot removal (excpet the rare Uw version) so he's doing ok there. Against mono blue merfolk they don't have too many ways to deal with artifacts either. So against merfolk he's pretty good unless they top him down with reejery or bounce your artifact or some such. Zoo: Unfortunately they play main deck qasali pridemage and path to deal with him. They can't burn him out, but they most likely wouldn't want to if they could. Counterblance decks: Bant plays either quasali or trygon predator along with swords. Other versions play sower or another control magic effect along with swords. Reanimator: he deals with zero of there threats. New horizons: see counterblance. Goblins: they either play edict effects or it wouldn't matter if he was just a 5/5 for 3. Also guys don't matter that much in the gobos MU your removal is what matters.

So basically, you get a guy who is good aginast merfolk and fairly lame against anything else with the drawback of having to play artifacts you don't want to play and opening up yourself to 2 for 1s. Will this card have a place in eva green? 95% sure no. 5% says you completely retool the deck and it's somehow good. Doubtful.

[overpowered]

Going to have to agree with Bluemage.

He just doesn't compare to goyf, and doesn't do what nighthawk can to a dreadnought/reanimator target. Furthermore, he is more investment than a Tombstalker and has no evasion. He won't end the game versus a lot of decks, as his indestructability has almost no impact on the format and doesn't even outrace a Rhox War Monk swing for swing, which is kind of sad. Nevermind his downside!

At 3 mana he just isn't competitive in this deck, when most creatures of equal or greater value cost less.

[Neuad]

Playing around with it in theory, and a bit on MWS I've settled on

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [DDE] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy



I really like this build, with Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy. Then Therapys flashback to get rid of Persecutor uncounterably.

I don't know if I want to make room for a 4th persecutor, or remove 1 and add a 4th Gatekeeper, but so far I've done alright with this build.

What do you guys like for SB? Looking through the posts

EE
Extripate
Pthing Needle
KGrips
GY hate

all look like solid choices?

[DownSyndromeKarl]

What do you guys like for SB? Looking through the posts

EE
Extripate
Pthing Needle
KGrips
GY hate

all look like solid choices?

I like Pernicious Deed better than EE in this deck. Your list runs two colors, meaning EE maxes out at 2. Deed at 3 really clears the board of the decks it's supposed to(Zoo, 'Folk, Gobbos) Given, EE at 2 does a decent job too, but Deed for 3 also gets KotR, Reejery and ...idk, Matron? lol, thats all I can think of off the top of my head. And I don't know your local Meta, but man, I know I have to pack the GY Hate in mine like crazy(

Also, how do you get rid of the Persecutor ftw? Gatekeeper yourself?

[Neuad]

Cabal Therapy flashback, or Gatekeeper myself.

[Takotsubo2]

I personnaly test a slightly different build :

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
8 [TE] Swamp (3)
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 [GP] Plagued Rusalka

// Spells
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [TSP] Smallpox

I'll explain my choices :

//Creatures :

The main weakness of evagreen seems to be its unability to control its draws in mid game, when you get useless sinkholes/tourach instead of real solutions. I therefore chose a more control, confidant-based, build.

Tarmo/hawk/gatekeeper are autoinclude, hawk is just impressive in an aggro meta, way over specter.

The 2 rusalkas are at test, they provide an interesting MD solution against goblin/ichorid decks, and a good synergy with bitterblossom.

I dont run stalker, due to the life loss risk with confidant, but i'll soon test some SDT (-1 tourach - 1 smallpox + 2 SDT), so 'ill give a try pretty soon (cutting rusalkas or smallpox ?) to 2 stalkers.

My choice is bitterblossom + jitte instead of shades/stalker. Jittes are just huge with flying tokens/creatures when nantuko has no evasion. This choice fits with the more controlish gameplan of my build, providing an impresive card advantage, a solution vs burn and aggro, as well as chump blockers in early game vs tarmo and also decent vs control although it doesnt provide a fast clock.
It is also way harder to deal with BB than stalker with jace, swords, etc

//spells :

Inquisition over thoughseize, you dont want to lose 2 life with confidant + bitterblossom when FoW isnt such an issue

No sinkholes : this build is not as aggro as the stalker/no confidant ones, sinkhole just does nothing vs fetches/daze, and ruin your draws midgame.

Smallpoxes are still at test, they can do fine with bitterblossom, the drawback is that you can get really often manascrewed by them, with all the BB cc spells. I'll probably try to cut them for SDT + stalker. Its never a bad topdeck though it can be difficult to evaluate whether its time to cast it, or not.


//sb : not completely done yet : but probably something like
4 pernicious deeds
4 Leyline of the void
the rest can be : krosan grips, perish, engeneered plague, choke, terravore, pithing needle, chains of mephistopheles (i like that one vs enchantress, some combo, landstill, confinement)

This build relies more on synergies and card advantage, while still putting opponent under pressure. Confidants are awesome with the low curve, and fit perfectly in the decks tempo. The difficulty you can meet is, like always with aggrocontrol decks (but more here than stalker builds) : quickly guess who is going to be the beatdown.

I'll be glad to have your comments, and I hope I helped the discussion by giving a slightly different view of the concept.

[MikeyFlowers]

Hi Takotsubo, that list sure is a different direction for the deck. I think that this build of yours is unique enough that I can't form an opinion of it based on my experiences with Eva Green. I'd be interested to hear about how it works out. This deck of yours looks like it aims to play a different game focusing more on control and manipulation rather than disruption. I think that for the more traditional lists disruption is our strongest package paving the way for powerful creatures to finish up the opponent's life. Since I feel like the disruption strategy is the best part of the deck I don't think I'd cut it to build a control shell or if I did I don't know if it's still the same deck.

As far as what I've been testing I found that Abyssal Persecutor must come out. No matter how much I love the idea of this Demon it just doesn't fit the deck. Trying to work him in required a re-design which moved me further away from the deck's strengths. I found that I don't like Gatekeeper of Malakir either as he's only good for his kicker ability and his 2/2 body just isn't strong enough for my deck. For my most recent build I've moved back towards where my deck began and the positive results have been immediate. The deck is winning more often and feels a lot stronger during play. I feel like when I'm playing well and making good decisions this deck is absolutely gorgeous. I'm tempted to do something about those Dark Rituals as while they do allow for the occasional ridiculous opening turns more often than not they are totally irrelevant. I don't know, for now they stay. Hopefully something will be printed which will better fit this deck. I am not interested in taking out Sinkhole as its just too good too often. A Sinkhole at the right moment can turn into a multi-turn Time Walk. Even against decks that only need a couple mana to operate if you can keep them off color you can grind decks normally fast decks like Survival to a halt. Coupled with all the various hate and disruption and the high quality creatures in the deck a little slip in your opponents rhythm is all it takes to plow them under. Here is my most recent list:

Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures
2 Arrogant Bloodlord
1 Juzam Djinn
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Instants
4 Dark Ritual

Sorcery
3 Consuming Vapors
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sinkhole
2 Snuff Out
4 Thoughtseize

For now sideboard is staying the same as my list above. Things I'd like to fit in the deck would be additional discard effects and some kind of draw effect that doesn't require life loss. I was testing Sylvan Library in my last build and found that it just wasn't good enough because no matter when I drew it I would rather it were the disruption spell I was hoping to get. Too often it just sat dead in my hand while I played everything else. The problem could have been that my previous build wasn't as good as this one to begin with and maybe the library would play better in this build. Has anyone had much success with this card? Any other suggestions? Maybe I'll cut a Dark Ritual for the Library and give it another shot. If I cut one Ritual though I'm going to want to cut them all.........!

[TheSleeper]

I've always loved this archetype and wanted to know what the consensus on incorporating Hexmage/Dark Depths? I've done a lot of searching in this thread for 'depths' but only saw 'requires too much re-structuring'. Is the depths version known by a different name? I searched and didn't find one, so I figured it'd be ok to discuss here.

The list that inspired me to post was the SCG Open: Indy that T16'd here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34531). There are some things I really love. Kitchen Finks is great in what looks to be an aggro meta. It forgoes the Dark Ritual (which has always been one of the cards fighting for its spot) for Living Wish, giving you great flexibility. Hexmage has its own uses if you're without Dark Depths (Chalice, planeswalkers, etc). I'd argue that including Depths does not require a total 'restructure'; it just drops some of the weaker cards. I've never liked Nantuko Shade as early game you just time-walk yourself vs. removal, and late game here's rarely the biggest guy around and can be chumped in any case. I'm not sure why the list didn't include Sinkhole, perhaps it could be included as follows:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Living Wish
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

I suppose this is less early game orientated due to no ritual/Snuff Out, but you have more bombs (Marit Lage), more answers (Wish), more card advantage (Bob). Any thoughts on such a build appreciated!

[Neuad]

I have alot of fun with the control/aggro idea behind this deck, but I always get caught with like all land, no creatures or vice versa. . . :(

// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DDE] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy

New and improved yet again to try and balance my creature/land base.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I've always loved this archetype and wanted to know what the consensus on incorporating Hexmage/Dark Depths? I've done a lot of searching in this thread for 'depths' but only saw 'requires too much re-structuring'. Is the depths version known by a different name? I searched and didn't find one, so I figured it'd be ok to discuss here.

The list that inspired me to post was the SCG Open: Indy that T16'd here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34531). There are some things I really love. Kitchen Finks is great in what looks to be an aggro meta. It forgoes the Dark Ritual (which has always been one of the cards fighting for its spot) for Living Wish, giving you great flexibility. Hexmage has its own uses if you're without Dark Depths (Chalice, planeswalkers, etc). I'd argue that including Depths does not require a total 'restructure'; it just drops some of the weaker cards. I've never liked Nantuko Shade as early game you just time-walk yourself vs. removal, and late game here's rarely the biggest guy around and can be chumped in any case. I'm not sure why the list didn't include Sinkhole, perhaps it could be included as follows:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Living Wish
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

I suppose this is less early game orientated due to no ritual/Snuff Out, but you have more bombs (Marit Lage), more answers (Wish), more card advantage (Bob). Any thoughts on such a build appreciated!

This is not an Eva Green deck. It looks fun, but it is a Hexmage Depths deck with a rock shell.

[coraz86]

The recent discussions regarding the banning of Mystical Tutor got me thinking. I love Hypnotic Specter as much as anyone does, but I believe I'll now be giving his slot to Vampire Nighthawk;
--Nighthawk's bigger ass means he doesn't die to Lavamancer, Kird Ape/Loam Lion/single-pump Steppe Lynx, Mishra's Factory, or any other source that deals 2 damage.
--Deathtouch is pretty awesome for those combats it can't win.
--Hyppie was good against storm because it knocked a card a turn out of their hands. Nighthawk gains you two life per swing, more if he's carrying a Jitte and you pump him. In either case you make it harder for them to kill you with Tendrils and makes it much harder for them to race with Goblins off EtW.

I think the only matchup I'd prefer Hyppie in anymore is Landstill, where life totals are much less relevant. This, of course, means I'm going to have to play Landstill two or three times a tourney for the rest of my life, being the embodiment of Murphy's Law as I am, but I hope this helps those of you more lucky than I.

[Yashamaru]

Hello I am new here and I would love to hear your thoughts about my version of the deck:

4x tarmogoyf
4x hypnotic specter
3x nantuko shade
3x tombstalker

My thought process behind this is that I dont want to have multiple tombstalker or shade in my opening hand. This deck is based on disruption and I think we always want to discard our opponent first.

Those two slots I gained by cut down creatures I use for

2x reanimate

Which I believe can be counted as a creature as well. That takes me back to usual 16 creatures. Moreover it has nice synergy with our discard.

Now these cards which are pretty much untouchable.

4x dark ritual
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
4x snuff out

I run only 20 lands. I am not entirely sure about this and I would feel safer running on 21 lands. There is simply no space.

Last four spots are reserved for

4x Inquisition of Kozilek

So this way I run potentionaly 16 discard cards. 12 land desctructing cards.

I like Eva Green deck but I feel like it can be moody sometimes. By these adjustements I wanted to maximize chance for good opening hands.

Your thoughts?

[jazzykat]

Make sure you play enough land if you are serious about good opening hands. You can much more easily play with 1 extra mana instead of 1 less.

[Yashamaru]

In that case I would probably play only one reanimate since I dont want two in my opening hand. Ever. And it is good only for the late game anyway. One reanimate seems kinda random though :)

[Neuad]

And you might want to thing of Unearth instead of Reanimate. Unearth only misses Tombstalkers but you lose no HP.

[aznepyon7]

I agree that Unearth is a better option. TS is pretty expensive to Reanimate anyway. Life loss normally doesn't matter but 8 is too much.

[Neuad]

// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DDE] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [MPR] Hypnotic Specter
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy

After much playtesting on MWS this is a consistant build that I like alot. It has enough removal for my Persecutors, enough disruption/LD to slow my opponent down.

Now it's time to build it and put it to the test at my local hobby shop.

And make my SB of course.

SB looking something like this sound good?


3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Reanimate hits your opponent's yards too. five Goyfs seems pretty good. Or if theyre running Reanimator, you steal their turn one Iona or Inkwell. Unearth is kinda neat and all, but having options is nice.

[Yashamaru]

I am testing this deck on mws and I am amazed. It works very well. I must admit usually I play against people with not really competetive decks but still. I play the original build with only one change and that is:

+1 reanimate
-1 seal of primordium

what I lack is mulligan skill. Is there any way how to improve it? or is it only practice practice practice?

Also against which decks would be 3x phyrexian negator in side a good idea?

[mkugelkolly]

Hi every body,
I would like to take from you a helping hand (helping word in fact) about my built.
(sorry for my "english from te wild", sometime my sentence dont speak as I expect them to do...)

So, here is my cards :

Lands, 21 : nothing wrong here I think.
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

Creatures : 18, I tried to make each of those creature fit with the loselife provided by dark confidant. I sadly can't play Tombstalker that's way.
4 Dark Confidant, its card advantage is priceless, I really like it, but have to tune the deck to fit with the loselife it provide.
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir, an awesome remover, better than diabolic edict. I play them instead of hypnotic specter
4 Tarmogoyf, given, no need to speak about tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk, great creature, do life drain, and is able to kill any single one creature that attack me. usefull.
3 Nantuko Shade, proven mid game kill.

Spells, 21, some of them are auto include (hymn, inquisition, jitte). but here i need support
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach, best discard ever made
4 Inquisition of Kozilek, because I dont want to lose 2 life twice because of Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte, very great synergie with all of my creature, especially with Vampire Nighthawk
3 Extirpate my help in main deck again lot of card
4 Sinkhole, land destruction is always cool

sideboard : i really need support here.... I dont know how many and how to side... my fist thought goes to engineered plague, pithing needle, pernicious deed, leyline of the void (but high mana cost) diabolic edict.... I dont have the art to side :/ any help will be really appreciate !

So guys, let me know what do you think about this built without tombstalker, but with a good card advantage provided by dark confidant.

[jamis]

You need more creature kill than just Nighthawk and Gatekeeper. Obviously since you use Bob, you can't use Snuff Out, but you do have lesser options such as Smother, Vendetta, or Maelstrom Pulse.

Extirpate is trash against mostly everything aside from Loam decks. I'd say you can cut all three and either go down to 2 Gatekeeper or 3 Nighthawk to fit in a four-of for your targeted removal of choice.

Jitte has always been a sideboard card, imo. Unless you're in an aggro-heavy meta, I see no reason to maindeck it.

Your sideboard will of course depend on your meta, but I'd generally go with:
3-4 Engineered Plague to deal with Goblins, Merfolk, Enchantress, Hexmage Depthes (does this even see play anymore?), etc.

5-6 Grave-hate cards: Even if Reanimator took a hit, you have to worry about Loam decks, and Dredge is still one of our worst match-ups. Normally, I'd say Leyline of the Void is the best option, but like you said, it's bad with Bob. Some number of Tormod's Crypt, Extirpate, and/or Relic of Progenitus should be best.

3-4 Krosan Grip for obvious reasons

2 if you remove them from your maindeck.

2-3 [cards]Choke or Summoning Trap for anti-blue hate

Honestly, though, I think if you're playing worse cards for Bob, you have to wonder if Bob is worth it.

[mkugelkolly]

Honestly, though, I think if you're playing worse cards for Bob, you have to wonder if Bob is worth it.
You are right, Playing 4 Dark Confidant dont worth the price of not playing the best black card.$
I will make some trial without Dark Confidant. I just dont know how to still have a efficient card advantage. May be hypnotic pecter have to come back....

By the way, thank you Jamis for your helping hand, truely appreciate, especially for the sideboard point.

[sporenfrosch1411]

It still is suicide, get used to getting a lot lifed swinged by your own stuff ;)
Srsly, i would not cut Bob´s. They are removal magnet and the loss of life is allways worth the cards.

[Esper3k]

I have not been a fan of Dark Confidant in Eva Green. The problem with Confidant is that it's not tempo and it's not disruption.

Eva / Suicide has always been about fast disruption and beaters. Slowing the deck down just turns it into the Rock.

Just my $0.02.

[Corax]

This is my current Eva list after experimenting with Rock and Deadguy lists. I came to the conclusion that I like the tempo and fast clock of eva green more than the slower more removal heavy decks like Rock and Deadguy.

Creatures
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade

Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

Removal
1 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
8 Swamp

For creatures i like having a massive 20 because you are going to need threats too keep up the tempo.
The disruption is pretty standard, Sinkhole is bad in some matchups and can be sided out, but when its good, it can be pretty significant.
The removal is a bit light because the only way to get targeted removal is by having a jitte online or the one smother, which i might change to a snuff out, but the gatekeepers are what i think is what is making this deck good again, it should be your go to removal of choice for black aggro.
The mana base is 6 fetchlands because i think as a 2 color deck with 4 green cards you really want to see a lot of basics, you dont have to worry about stifle but if there isn't a lot of that in your meta you could use more fetches if you want as they are good with tombstalker.
The reason i picked 2 Tombstalkers 2 Dark Confidants is because they are both cards in an aggro deck like this that you don't want or need 4 of. 2 Dark Confidants is just enough late game so that you can find one and atleast force them to remove it. 2 Tombstalkers is because obviously you don't want to flip one with Bob to lose 8 (which i did twice in the same tournament and still ended up winning both of those games, because now you have a tombstalker to play) but Tombstalker is a card that can get backed up in your hand if you have too many, most people call it a 3 of, i called it a 2 of because of Dark Confidant and i wanted the one smother.

I think the heart of this deck is still the tempo of the early disruption with Dark Rituals, Hymn, Sinkhole, and then landing a subsequent creature such as Nantuko Shade, I also think Vampire Nighthawk is a great help in here because playing this deck before, and enemy tombstalker was near impossible to deal with mainly due to the fact that no viable black spells can kill it.

In general when you play this deck you aren't hoping to see a late game, but if you do which is inevitable sometimes this list gives you the tools you need such as the 2 Dark Confidants and the 2 Jittes.

For Sideboard it really depends, i just starting using Chalice of the Void and am liking how versatile Chalice for 1 is.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague

is a basic list, I am interested to know what people are using against Merfolk in the sideboard as I find that to be the decks most difficult matchup.

[Sintheros]

I think this thread needs a bump. Here's the list I'm currently running. I'm not a huge fan of Gatekeeper myself.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp
3 Bayou

Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker

Other (23)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Choke
3 Umezawa's Jitte

[Esper3k]

Here's a list I've been testing with some pretty good success (I'm a huge fan of Gatekeeper myself):

Land (22):
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Forest
3x Bayou
6x Swamp

Creatures (17):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker
2x Arrogant Bloodlord

Instants (6):
4x Dark Ritual
2x Snuff Out

Sorceries (15):
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Choke
4x Pernicious Deed
1x Duress
2x Extirpate

Inquisition has been pretty interesting. I've been testing it + Arrogant Bloodlords to give better game against Zoo. Most of the time, I don't mind the loss of Thoughtseize since the biggest thing you can't take with it is FoW, but most of the time you're ok with your opponent card disadvantaging themselves to FoW your spells anyways. Loss of Thoughtseize does make your control matchup worse though (not being able to grab Jace or Elspeth really sucks!).

[Arsenal]

I think this thread needs a bump. Here's the list I'm currently running. I'm not a huge fan of Gatekeeper myself.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp
3 Bayou

Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker

Other (23)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Choke
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Pretty standard list. Do you not like Gatekeeper in this meta (Gobs/Zoo/Fish) or do you not like him at all? I can see not wanting to run him as a meta choice, but other than that, he's a solid creature that gives black aggro some versatility and actual card advantage.

[Esper3k]

Also, with all those Emrakuls running around these days, Gatekeeper gives us an answer to it.

[Sintheros]

Any deck playing Emrakul has another creature in play. I'd rather play Damnation.

[lorddotm]

Any deck playing Emrakul has another creature in play. I'd rather play Damnation.

Are you stupid?

The most common way Emrakul finds his way on the board is by Show and Tell. Go read that card, now take the time not notice it only put him into play.

You sir, fail.

[Sintheros]

I see Elves or Loyal Retainers dropping Emrakuls far more often than I see SnT around me.

[Esper3k]

I see Elves or Loyal Retainers dropping Emrakuls far more often than I see SnT around me.

I think that what Lorddotm was saying is that in the overall Legacy Meta, Emrakul is most commonly brought in via Show & Tell.

If you're facing it more often via Loyal Retainers or Elves, you may want to consider more graveyard hate or Perish?

[Sintheros]

Fish and Goblins are more popular than anything with Emrakul over here, hence the plagues, which hits Elves as well.

[Esper3k]

Gatekeeper hitting Emrakul is just bonus. I really like the Gatekeeper because it's a tempo card plus card advantage plus an actual body, which is something we really don't tend to get in this type of deck.

I'm not a huge fan of Engineered Plague myself and have been looking for something to replace it against heavy creature decks (thus I had been testing Deeds). Deed has amazing synergy with Tombstalker, but is actually pretty poor with the rest of the deck, so I've been experimenting with other stuff.

I'm looking to test Dystopia (stolen from the Gate thread) as an answer to Zoo and helps against decks that run white or green enchantments (like Enchantress or Stax, although our Enchantress matchup is already pretty amazing).

[Sintheros]

Sinkhole just feels so underwhelming sometimes.

[Esper3k]

It can be a terrible topdeck, but I've still been impressed by it when you can just absolutely wreck someone's manabase with it. It's always awesome when they try and be tricksy by fetching basic lands... oops, Sinkhole!

[kombatkiwi]

4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
4 Sarcomancy

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Forest
4 Swamp

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Snuff Out


I think that potentially the carnophages can be taken out for lacerators
Both situations you have guys that sometimes ping you and guys that always ping you
Lacerator has extra toughness (EDIT, sorry, I thought carno was 2/1... I think the EPlague thing is kind of relevant though) and prevents additional damage from a potential EPlague on Zombie
Sarcomancy is good because negator can eat it
(EDIT so I would probably keep carno + sarco)

Some people say that you need to make the deck bad to fit in bob, but clearly the deck can work without maindeck snuffs and tombstalkers. I disagree with the person who said that bob is not an Eva Green creature because it is neither aggro nor disruption, because if the rest of your deck is these cards then that's what bob will give you, and a 2/1 for one isn't THAT inefficient.

I don't know why he plays relic and not Crypt
Relic makes goyf 0/1, sometimes it is too slow
I would probably run a split or all Crypts (or run extirpate)

I don't know what you would bring snuff out in against and what you would take out for it

I don't know what he used EE for

Average CMC in the deck is 1.27

The biggest shock is that this thread leans toward a more controllish build of Suicide Goyf. Do you think this more aggresive build of the deck is the way to go? Or do you think he won by a fluke? Or that the metagame was unusually suited to this build?

-Liam

[Sintheros]

Hyppie seems to be underperforming so much lately, it's depressing. How do these lists from earlier in the year fare today?

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp

2 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

4 Dark Ritual
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Snuff Out
1 Jitte

SB
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

This list is...interesting. The Duress/Edict thing in the MD/SB are cute and may work. The one Jitte seems out of place. I feel like the SB needs Choke, and this list looks like it loses to Jace/Survival/Enchantments/Artifacts/whatever by not including Maelstrom Pulse/Krosan Grip/Deed

But it and similar lists made a fairly good showing earlier this year, is this kind of list still viable?

[Esper3k]

I'm not a fan of that list that T16'd Nashville.

My thought is that it probably did alright because it's taking advantage of the lack of Zoo in the metagame right now (Zoo's creatures are just hands down better than that deck).

[Sintheros]

Does this archetype still have game? It just seems disjointed. Confidant and Tombstalker in some cases but no Top. Sinkhole isn't as good as it used to be. Hyppie/Nighthawk/Shade/Gatekeeper are not all star creatures.

I don't really want to play blue (Team America) or white (Dark Horizons), but I like the rest of it...

[Esper3k]

Gatekeeper is pretty amazing in this deck, imo. Generates tempo which is great for this style of deck, plus it's card advantage, which the deck typically sorely lacks.

It also gives you a way to kill other black creatures and even lets you kill Emrakul/Progenitus.

[Sintheros]

Triple black can be surprisingly hard to hit consistently without ritual, it always seems to be swamp/swamp/wasteland or bayou/swamp/wasteland in play.

[Esper3k]

I find that I don't tend to have that problem unless I fetch out the basic forest that I run. If I do that it's still usually worth it.

Also as you mentioned, Dark Ritual helps too and Gatekeeper itself offsets the card disadvantage of Ritual.

[MikeyFlowers]

Hi guys, I just want to say, with all this talk of Blue / Green Madness being too powerful fluttering around the 'net (not necessarily right here)... that Eva Green rolls and smokes that deck!!

I tried Gatekeeper for a bit and found it just not good enough. It's tough to hit triple black, for that much mana there are better things to play, and... it just wasn't good enough to justify even one spot, much less two to four.

I've been loving this deck for like two years now. My build was constantly evolving for a long time until it reached present state some few months ago and here it will stay for probably a while. You play it pure tempo, kill everything they play until you can land a Goyf or Tombstalker for the win. Goyfs beat Madness well enough that I find two Stalkers to be enough but if you really, realllly wanted to mess them up, add a third! I would have to cut the Juzam Djinn though, and he's non-negotiable. I guess I could cut a Nighthawk, but then there's always Green / White survival and Iona.... and Reanimator... and.. ahhh, Magic. That's why I play the list I play. Oh, and, no basic Forests. Here it is:

Lands
5x Swamp
4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Nantuko Shade
2x Tombstalker
1x Juzam Djinn

Instant
2x Doom Blade
2x Snuff Out

Sorcery
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Consuming Vapors
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

Enchantment
2x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Lignify
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Krosan Grip
1x Choke <- probably could be a third Faerie Macabre the way things are going these days, or maybe like a re-animator spell just for kicks.

But, other than the tweaks I might consider, that's it. I love this deck. It's way more fun than Madness anyways. It can fight back from one life. It does it all. Now, I just need somebody who is actually good at Magic to pick it up and WIN with it! Eva Green rules, it turns up randomly winning tournaments here and there and yet never really catches on. Hopefully some good players will start crushing Madness with it and get us some mad respect.

[imanujakku]

its not the madness mechanic its survival of the fittest. rootwalla and maybe wonder are just about the only things that remain from the old madness deck.

one question. if gatekeeper at BBB is too hard too hard to play how are you finding the 4 mana for vapors and the juzy ?

[MikeyFlowers]

They are better than Gatekeeper! easy.

[MikeyFlowers]

I should clarify, you play pretty much one spell a turn. The deck spends most of its time around two mana. If you've got three three blacks pretty much anything else is better than a Gatekeeper to play under 90% of situations. You have to actually play the deck to understand it.

Juzam Djinn is mostly for style.

[Esper3k]

What's Lignify for? Iona?

[Esper3k]

So our local store had a tournament for a Mishra's Workshop this weekend (2-4 got to choose from a Revised Underground Sea, Revised Bayou, and Unlimited Volcanic Island).

Ended up T8ing and making my entry fee back, bah!

Here's the list I ran:

6 Swamps
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Duress

Sideboard:

3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dystopia
1 Perish
2 Duress

Combo and control have been all over the place in our meta, so I chose to have less for the aggro matchups to beat combo and control.

Round 1 - vs Spanish Inquisition

Game 1: I win the die roll and he mulls to 5. I lead off with Ritual/Thoughtseize/Hymn. Game is over shortly after that.
Game 2: He mulls to 3 because he is sure I have a T1 discard spell. I just have Ritual into Hyppie, which gets there after being followed up by a Goyf.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - vs Zoo

The one matchup that I decided to throw away. Goddamnit.

Game 1: I kill his guys, then drop a Tombstalker which goes all the way.
Game 2: I keep him off his white mana with Wastelands and he dies with 3 PtE in hand.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - vs Welder Survival

I get paired down here.

Game 1: He gets down an early Survival and I keep trying to push tempo on him with triple Gatekeepers + Goyf. However, he stabilizes and I don't draw a Maelstrom Pulse to deal with Survival and he Ooze combos me out.
Game 2: T1 Hyppie is so great against decks that don't run removal. I disrupt disrupt disrupt and he dies without doing much.
Game 3: I get out an early Dystopia, but he's able to just keep enough green creatures on the board for his double goyf to finish me off. He had dubs Survival this game and all I had was Dystopia.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4 - vs Bant Aggro

A matchup that I was actually preparing for since he's a good player and has been playing this deck a lot over the past couple months.

Game 1: I tear his hand apart, then beat him down with big guys.
Game 2: We get to a game state where neither of us has any cards in hand, and the only non-land permenants on the board are my double Hypnotic Spectres. He draws Knight of the Reliquary (7/7), then Brainstorm into fetch land to shuffle garbage away, then top decks Jace when I have to start chump blocking with my Hyppies. I draw land, Thoughtseize, land, land, Thoughtseize. Doh.
Game 3: We go long and he gets a Jace out on the board, but I have a hand full of creatures and finally draw a Pulse to deal with Jace, which seals the game for me.

3-1 (7-3)

Round 5 - Top 8 - vs Zoo

Rematch against Zoo!

Game 1: He mulls to 6 on the play and I take the game off of removal + big guys.
Game 2: I just get blown out - he has the T1 Nacatl into T2 Goyf with a hand full of burn + removal.
Game 3: I mull to 5 on the play, ugh. Almost make a game of it, but he gets me low enough to burn me out with Chain Lightning and Fireblast.

3-2 (8-5)

Losing to the one deck in the entire room that I was hoping not to run into was frustrating, but it happens!

Hilariously, Zoo went on to beat TES in the Top 4, then beat Mono U Merfolk in the finals to take the Workshop.

[jazzykat]

@Esper3k: Interesting point you make about Hypnotic Spector. Has his time come back around?

[Esper3k]

I've always liked him but he was definitely less good when Zoo was super prevalant (which seems to really be on the decline right now).

Against UWx decks, sure they have Swords and Force, but Force 2 for 1's them, so you're breaking even and if they Swords your Hyppie, it's less removal to deal with your Tombstalkers. Plus, if you get to start connecting with it, you've pretty much won the game.

[GGoober]

Hyppie is good in an environment where burn is no longer the main removal (i.e. Zoo declining). Since everything dies to StP/Path/WoG etc, Hyppie is just as good as a 2/6 flyer, but disrupts a ton more. People underestimate old tech, and turn 1 rit hyppie punishes people who keep weak game 1/2/3 hands. I think the best new addition to the deck is Gatekeeper. He is very very strong.

The deck is all about fast threats AND card advantage. Even though Dark Ritual into stuff is card disadvantage, the huge tempo gain, and the ability to force your opponents to deal with your threats via Force (2 for 1) and cards like Hyppie and Gatekeeper serve the philosophy of card advantage while applying pressure. I was surprised that a seemingly board of 3 Gatekeepers didn't look as threatening as a board of 3 Goyfs, but don't forget that the Gatekeepers has taken out 3 of your creatures, causing you to really be in a terrible present/future board position. Gatekeeper is also strong against all the big Emrakuls that people fear.

[jamis]

I got 2nd at a 10-person event yesterday with this list:

3 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
7 Fetchlands
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Leyline of The Void
1 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Umezawa's Jitte

My Matches were:
Round 1: GW Vengevine Survival (2-1)
Round 2: GW Vial Aggro (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19274-4-0-Evolution-Games-A-Cinderella-Story) (2-1)
Round 3: UGWb Tempo (1-2)
Round 4: UW ThopterSword CouterTop (2-1)

Despite the good results, I think the decklist needs to be changed a lot. I lost every game preboard, and I really didn't feel comfortable with the Survival match-up. I plan on waiting until the 20th though, to know exactly what needs to be changed.

[bracer028]

how is this deck performing now that survival is gone?

[Schembo]

Finished 2nd in last weekend with this list. There was 34 players so we played 6 swiss rounds and top8. 1 day before tournament i removed sinkholes from deck and never missed them. I replaced holes with 2 bitterblossom and 2 deed.

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
3 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish

In swiss rounds i beat zoo, dredge, d.stompy and affinity. Lost to zoo and ID with enchantress to top8.

In quarters i win against imperial painter. In semifinals i won against bant with gsz and lost to zoo in final round. Winner got 4 tarmogoyfs and i walk out with 4 wasteland.

[Schembo]

Finished 2nd in last weekend with this list. There was 34 players so we played 6 swiss rounds and top8. 1 day before tournament i removed sinkholes from deck and never missed them. I replaced holes with 2 bitterblossom and 2 deed.

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
3 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish

In swiss rounds i beat zoo, dredge, d.stompy and affinity. Lost to zoo and ID with enchantress to top8.

In quarters i win against imperial painter. In semifinals i won against bant with gsz and lost to zoo in final round. Winner got 4 tarmogoyfs and i walk out with 4 wasteland.

[Esper3k]

Nice!

Anyone tried out Phyrexian Crusader yet?

From my testing, it's pretty amazing against Zoo.

[Sintheros]

There's a video of me playing Eva at the DC open against Painter/Stone on GGslive's archive, unfortunately I lose.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

There's a video of me playing Eva at the DC open against Painter/Stone on GGslive's archive, unfortunately I lose.

you're the guy who played Ken Adams round one? I didn't know who to root for, the guy i knew, or the guy playing the deck i play...

[Sintheros]

Yea, guy with the long hair. I knew Ken too, I go to school in Rochester so Jupiter's not so far away. He gave me gushers!

I was playing the following list:

4 Bayou
6 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Vampire Nighthawk

---

Though I'm going to change some stuff around, probably to something like so...

4 Bayou
6 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Snuff Out
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Choke

---

Duress -> Inquisition
Shade -> Nighthawk
Pulse -> Deed
And I want Choke back in the SB.
Also down to 3 rituals. Without shade, its only uses are fast Tombstalkers or broken turn 1/turn 2's.

Thoughts? Edict or Smother? Smother works wonders against Fish and Elves and whatnot, but nonsense like Emrakul and Progenitus are becoming more common.

I wonder about the mana base. BBB is such a pain for Gatekeeper, and with the chokes and grips in the SB, I may want a Forest....

[Esper3k]

Confidant + Tombstalker and no Tops?

You, sir, are a very bold man :)

Did you ever get punched in the nuts by Bob?

[Sintheros]

I did at DC one game - and the result was as expected.

I took 8, but I just drew Tombstalker. Therefore, I won anyway.

It loses to burn, but Eva loses to burn all the time regardless.

[GradStudentGuy]

This may sound a little crazy but I have been play testing Bind instead of Sinkhole and I think I am in love.
It hits
Fetch Lands <--- Its a green stifle here!
Plainswalkers
Sensei's divining top
Aether Vial
Mother of Runes
Stoneforge Mystic
Mangara of Corondor
Wasteland
Rishadan Port
Karakas
Grim Lavamancer
Coralhelm Commander
Umezawa's Jitte
Gempalm Incinerator
Siege-Gang Commander
Goblin Sharpshooter
Qasali Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary
Maze of Ith
Pernicious Deed

[Sintheros]

I've been hating on Nighthawk quite a bit recently. It's a tiny bit on the slow side against aggro, though it is rather good there, but so often its either too slow or just worthless against other decks.

[Greenpoe]

I feel like Snuff Out and 2 or 3 Tombstalker are necessary to keep up with the decks out there, even with the full set of Bobs. It's a lot of life loss, but if you can manage to keep control of the game between Snuff out, Deed, discard and Goyf acting as a wall, I've found I can usually either win or re-gain life with Nighthawk before I kill myself. Plus, all the lifeloss makes the deck more exciting to play! Bob usually gets killed/countered anyway.

What do you guys think about Hyppie? I've been running 2 and I love the guy. He's so useful in forcing the opponent to play whatever they have in hand and he does a great job of hurting any blue deck.

[Sintheros]

With the increasing amounts of Combo coming back, I think the Chokes in my board might be going back to 2 Tormod's Crypts and a spare discard spell.

Something like...

4 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Duress

[Diprivan]

With the increasing amounts of Combo coming back, I think the Chokes in my board might be going back to 2 Tormod's Crypts and a spare discard spell.

Something like...

4 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Duress

What are you trying to accomplish with 2 crypt against combo? Crypt is not very relevant against combo (unless you consider dredge combo and even if you do, you have enough hate for it already)

[Sintheros]

Hits re animator too. Shrug. There's just a whole lot of combo lately and there's not a lot we can do against it sometimes. Have any better ideas?

[Diprivan]

Hits re animator too. Shrug. There's just a whole lot of combo lately and there's not a lot we can do against it sometimes. Have any better ideas?

Phyrexian revoker to start with. If you expect a lot of combo even mindbreak trap. Additional discard is allright too. Needle if they have DD plan.
Reanimator is rarely played here, I don't know how relevant it is in your meta. Against ichorid I believe ravenous trap may be the better card if you don't have trinket mage or E tutor to fetch crypt.

[robsmashhh]

I know tombstalker is good. But is the control version of this deck really better then the suicide confidant negater approach?

[ivanpei]

Has anyone tried the white splash? The 3 best threats in legacy are Goyf, Stalker and KOTR. KOTR and stalker don't gel and the problem with Stalker is that multiple are bad and the dis synergy with bob. Having white also gives you vindicate for the total mana denial plan. KOTR fetching wastelands further enhances the mana denial plan. You are also able to play Bobs now that Stalker is cut. The deck seems to look like a suicide version of the Rock. I plan to give this a try:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (Need more 1cc spells, could also be top)
4 Hymm

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Goyf
4 KOTR
4 Bob

2 Snuff Out
2 STP

4 Wastes
9 Black Fetches
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

Thoughts?

[Sintheros]

You're essentially playing Dark Horizons now.

[ivanpei]

Naming conventions are a pain. Is there a thread for Dark Horizons? Or should the white splash discussion be moved to "the rock" thread? I get confused by the names.

[Sintheros]

All the same. A list like that belongs in the Rock thread though.

[bracer028]

Confidant + Tombstalker and no Tops?

You, sir, are a very bold man :)

Did you ever get punched in the nuts by Bob?

you just gotta take it like a man. chances are they will waste all their removals on bob anyways. so you wont' even have a bob in play.

and 3 cards out of 60...you wont hit it THAT often to cost you the game.

[Greenpoe]

you just gotta take it like a man. chances are they will waste all their removals on bob anyways. so you wont' even have a bob in play.

and 3 cards out of 60...you wont hit it THAT often to cost you the game.

Agreed 100%. 3 Tombstalker has won me countless games, even with 4 Bob, no tops and Snuff Outs. Of course I play 4x Nighthawk, but 2-3 Tombstalker is absolutely neccessary to seal games off quickly, especially since Stalker survives Deed like a champ. I think Top is far too mana-intensive for Evagreen.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I don't know about Top... I often find myself not really needing it, but sometimes it really saves my ass. The thing with Eva, you're always putting all your eggs in one basket. It usually pays off, but when it doesn't, you really need to be able to control your draws.

That said, I run two tops...but no Bobs. Like bracer said, everyone spends their removal to get rid of him. He acts more like a red herring than a card-draw engine. I don't run fish, why play a herring?

[vJAKEv]

not a fan of the gatekeepers. gave them a try and i think they are too hit or miss. for every dark ritual, into gatekeeper on lackey, there is a swamp,bayou, wasteland, top deck gatekeeper hand.

going to just swap them straight for nighthawks and see how that goes...or try some combination of bobs/tops

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I've been not liking the Gatekeepers lately as well. I run 3 and 3 Nighthawks right now. I was thinking about just swapping the Gatekeepers for Edicts and taking out 2 Tombstalkers for 2 KotR...making my deck less and less Eva...

It's been a few pages since I've posted my list, so:

Creatures (15)

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
3x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir

Spells (21)

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Reaminate
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

Land (24)
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bayou
2x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2x Choke
3x Engineered Plague
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Perish
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod’s Crypt

[bracer028]

This is the deck i will be entering in 2 weeks in a 40 man unknown meta tournament.


Creatures
3x dark confidant
3x tombstalker
3x gatekeeper of malikar
3x vampire nighthawk
4x tarmogoyf

Enchantments
2x pernicious deed
2x engineered plague

Instants
3x smother
3x go for the throat
4x dark ritual

sorcery
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kolizek

lands
4x bayou
4x wasteland
4x verdant catacombs
2x marshflats
1x forest
5x swamp

sideboard
2x umezawa's jitte
3x krosan grip
1x engineered plague
4x pithing needle
4x extirpate
1x pernicious deed




I'm thinking. against the fish matchup and goblins, I don't ever play pithing needle. I would rather put in my engineered plagues.

So, i actually i don't even know why i need 4x pithing needles in my deck. I cannot stop storm combo with it. The only thing i can do with pithing needle is maybe use it against sneak attack. and thats about it.

So do you guys think i should take out the 4x pithing needles for maybe 4x mindbreak traps?

Also, should i take out the last pernicious deed for 1x maelstrom pulse?

[Clark Kant]

I think it's time to revive sui black/eva green

The (New Phyrexia) Phyrexian Negator is

BBBB
5/5
Trample
Whenever a source damages ~, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents.

No one will ever dare block that die, or try to burn him, so barring StP, it's a four turn clock.

Between this, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nighthawk, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual and Duress, maybe even Go for the Throat or Hypnotic Specter, I'm liking how the deck is looking.

We will need to do away with Wasteland, and thus Sinkhole as well though, but I don't think that hurts the deck. So many decks play Wasteland and are prepared for opposing Wasteland that it's not as broken a card as it once was.

[Richard Cheese]

Thinking of playing Eva Green at the SCG Open Denver in June, here's my tentative list:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Crusader

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
1 Forest
7 Swamp

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
1 Pernicious Deed


The creature package is where I'm mostly having issues...Shade/Specter/Crusader are all pretty debatable. Possible alternatives include Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, and the new Phyrexian Cancellor (maybe a 2/2 split between him and Crusader). Also 3 Deed/Edict vs. 2/2/2 with Maelstrom Pulse?

Opinions?

[Greenpoe]

Thinking of playing Eva Green at the SCG Open Denver in June, here's my tentative list:

The creature package is where I'm mostly having issues...Shade/Specter/Crusader are all pretty debatable. Possible alternatives include Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, and the new Phyrexian Cancellor (maybe a 2/2 split between him and Crusader). Also 3 Deed/Edict vs. 2/2/2 with Maelstrom Pulse?

Opinions?

I'm a huge fan of the 3rd Deed. Deed the board is your plan B in case plan A fails. Ritual goes great with Deed, too. Why no Snuff Out? The tempo-gain from free creature kill is fantastic, especially since you're not playing Bob. 4 Shade is definitely too many. I'd drop two for Nighthawks. Gatekeeper kind of sucks in Eva. Wasteland+enemy wastelands+the basic forest make it suprisingly difficult for Gatekeeper to be worthwhile. Plus, he's got no evasion or anything, so without equipment he's just not good.

[GGoober]

I think it's time to revive sui black/eva green


So many decks play Wasteland and are prepared for opposing Wasteland that it's not as broken a card as it once was.

How sure are you that this is the case? People have been playing around Wasteland and Stifles for as long as the format played Wasteland/Stifle. The shift to being waste-resilient begun about 2-3 years back when decks played at least 1 basic for every color they played e.g. zoo/bant. Despite that, Wasteland can still single-handedly win games, and it has only shown recently that Wasteland is becoming much more format-defining than we once thought it was. Wasteland is still the best land-destruction/tempo (tempo when you have board/hand advantage) than any other spell.

Although I can see Wasteland being a hindrance to playing Phyrexian Cancellor, but I still feel that a Eva without Wasteland is not going to cut it at all.

[Richard Cheese]

The problem with Wasteland is that it's just as conditional as Sinkhole. It's really best in the first few turns, but it makes you miss a land drop, so if you aren't already in a better board position, it ranges from break-even to bad. Running 4 Wasteland without any other manabase disruption just feels like running only 4 counterspells.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm going to disagree that Wasteland is best in the first few turns when played in this deck. I'd rather see a wasteland on turn 4+. I want to spend my first two or three turns tearing up their hand with black spells. Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, etc... Now that you have nothing to cast, I'm going to make sure that your draws are slow too.
Conditional? Yes. But Wasteland is awesome against pesky utility lands like Maze of Ith, Mutavault, and hell, I've wasted Cephalid Coliseums before.
If I'm not shutting off a color, eliminating a threat or bypassing a wall, I use my wastes for mana.

[bracer028]

I'm a huge fan of the 3rd Deed. Deed the board is your plan B in case plan A fails. Ritual goes great with Deed, too. Why no Snuff Out? The tempo-gain from free creature kill is fantastic, especially since you're not playing Bob. 4 Shade is definitely too many. I'd drop two for Nighthawks. Gatekeeper kind of sucks in Eva. Wasteland+enemy wastelands+the basic forest make it suprisingly difficult for Gatekeeper to be worthwhile. Plus, he's got no evasion or anything, so without equipment he's just not good.

you won't believe how powerful gatekeeper is in this deck.

[Yashamaru]

This is my list for the small tournament tomorrow. I do not have enough brainpower to make any sane decisions therefore I try to keep deck as simple as possible.

3x Tombstalker
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tarmogoyf

4x snuff out
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
4x dark ritual
3x maelstrom pulse

4x wasteland
6x swamp
1x wooded foothills
3x overgrown tomb
4x bloodstained mire
4x verdant catacombs

4x perish
4x engineered plague
3x pithing needle
4x leyline of the void

I know it is not very original list but I really suck and I want to keep things pretty straightforward.

I have added one more fetch because I felt like my draws are starving for one more mana every time.

Tomorrow I will post my results.

[bracer028]

Tournament Report


Creatures
3x dark confidant
3x tombstalker
3x gatekeeper of malikar
3x vampire nighthawk
4x tarmogoyf
2x phyrexian revoker

Spells
2x pernicious deed
2x maelstrom pulse

Instants
4x go for the throat
4x dark ritual

sorcery
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kolizek

lands
4x bayou
4x wasteland
4x verdant catacombs
2x marshflats
1x forest
5x swamp

sideboard
3x Choke
3x krosan grip
3x engineered plague
1x phyrexian revoker
4x extirpate
1x Pernicious Deed


Match 1

Dredge
Game 1 - He went first. He couldn't dredge anything. I got a nighthawk and a gofy, kept swinging for the win.

Game 2 - took out 4 hymns, 4 thoughtseize, 1 inquisition. In - 3 engineered plague, 4 extirpate, 1 deed, 1 phyrexian revoker.
Turn one, he dropped a bridge from below. My turn, I extirpate his bridge. Dropped gofys, phyrexian revoker his putrid imp. He dropped another land, I waste land his city of brass. Pretty much game. Kept swinging with gofy, gatekeeper.

(2-0)
1-0

Match 2
Glimpse combo

Game 1 - he went off on turn 2. I didn't do anything
Game 2 - He went off on turn 3. I couldn't do anything.

(0-2)
1-1

Match 3
Merfolk

Game 1 - Lost game one because I was a fat ass and went to a long lunch.

Game 2 - Won game one. deed him for 2, swing with nighthawk. That killed his vials, his merfolks. I go for the throat whatever merfolk he put in.

Game 3 - Kept dropping dark confidants early on turn 2-3. He kept countering. So what. Eventually i drop a gofy. Kept swinging until he was like at 3. I was at 7. I was waiting for my deed to come or a engineered plague. Nothing showed up. He vialed in lord of atlantis on my EOT. He cst lord on his turn. Swing for 7...lost.

(2-1)
1-2

Match 4

Ravager Affinity.

Game 1 - I had one land. I took a big gamble and dropped 2 dark rituals, and hard cast tombstalker on turn one. (i really should have mulliganed, but i was already 1-2. so what. Attacked him down to 5. Drops tezz then ultimates. I lose for 20, with 10 artifacts. I did not attack the tezz. i attacked him. big mistake.

Game 2 - He hard cast a bunch of little artifacts. I was able to deed. He was boardless except for that one land where it is indestructible. I drop a gofy. He scoops.

Game 3 - He just went off. WIthout me finding an answer. Got the big ravagers out. I lose.

1-2
(1-3)

Bad tournament Day.

[Greenpoe]

I think Eva Green definitely needs to go for 4 Dark Confidant + 2-3 Tombstalker to keep up these days.
In testing, I've been enjoying Mental Misstep in the maindeck. Along with Dark Ritual and the discard, it gives the deck a pretty decent game 1 vs. combo. Pernicious Deed maindeck + Engineered Plague in the SB works wonders vs. ETW tokens. As much as I like Snuff Out, the inability to kill an enemy Confidant is annoying, so I may give Funeral Charm a shot. It's less damage off Bob and so versatile. I think I'm going to switch out Nantuko Shades for Hypnotic Specters. Shade can be lackluster against aggro like Hyppie, but Hyppie does well vs. combo and control, at least.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Bayou
1 [ROE] Forest (4)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [6E] Swamp (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [GTW] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [TO] Nantuko Shade

// Spells
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
1 [DDD] Snuff Out
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FNM] Smother
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

[bracer028]

I think Eva Green definitely needs to go for 4 Dark Confidant + 2-3 Tombstalker to keep up these days.
In testing, I've been enjoying Mental Misstep in the maindeck. Along with Dark Ritual and the discard, it gives the deck a pretty decent game 1 vs. combo. Pernicious Deed maindeck + Engineered Plague in the SB works wonders vs. ETW tokens. As much as I like Snuff Out, the inability to kill an enemy Confidant is annoying, so I may give Funeral Charm a shot. It's less damage off Bob and so versatile. I think I'm going to switch out Nantuko Shades for Hypnotic Specters. Shade can be lackluster against aggro like Hyppie, but Hyppie does well vs. combo and control, at least.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Bayou
1 [ROE] Forest (4)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [6E] Swamp (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [GTW] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [TO] Nantuko Shade

// Spells
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
1 [DDD] Snuff Out
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FNM] Smother
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

mainboarding 2 deeds is beautiful. I'm thinking about lowiering the removal count to 4...2 smothers and 2 maelstrom pulse. that way i can free up 4 slots for Mental misstep.

as for shade, that card is LONG gone. having gatekeeper is SOOO much better

yea i agree with hyppie...its much better than shade or VNH. chances are that you will run into combo and control more often than running into an aggro deck. (2:1)

[Greenpoe]

Shade was there to smoothe out the curve, but black's 2-drops are pretty mediocre, besdies Confidant. Gatekeeper's problem is that he's only a 2/2 with no evasion, so I think Hyppie and Nighthawk is better than running one of them with Gatekeeper. Running equipment is the only reason to run Gatekeeper IMO. Plus, there's a good bit of synergy between having a bunch of flying threats (Stalker, Hyppie, Nighthawk), so you can use Goyf to clog up the ground while you're aerial guys swing away.

[bracer028]

Shade was there to smoothe out the curve, but black's 2-drops are pretty mediocre, besdies Confidant. Gatekeeper's problem is that he's only a 2/2 with no evasion, so I think Hyppie and Nighthawk is better than running one of them with Gatekeeper. Running equipment is the only reason to run Gatekeeper IMO. Plus, there's a good bit of synergy between having a bunch of flying threats (Stalker, Hyppie, Nighthawk), so you can use Goyf to clog up the ground while you're aerial guys swing away.

i guess to each their own. i don't know how many times a gatekeeper cleared the way for my win with a gofy

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Not to mention Gatekeeper's ability to deal with Progenitus, Emrakul, Kira, etc... Given, it's not a guaranteed shot, but you have no way of dealing with these G1 without it. Gatekeeper is almost always useful and a majority of the time, he's MVP.

[bracer028]

has anyone really tried playtesting with Mental misstep? with results?

[Richard Cheese]

Been testing some NPH cards in a super aggro build:


4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geth's Verdict
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Mox Diamond
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Choke


I'm trying to forego discard (gasp!) because it's too conditional late game, and I really want greater threat density. I'll still probably try a build with it in, probably in place of Hippies/Nighthawks and Diamonds. Originally I had 4x Lacerator in place of 3x Diamond and 1x Nighthawk just to smooth out the curve, but I'm trying to see if Diamonds are worth the tradeoff of potential dead draws for better creatures earlier. Geth's Verdict has been really spectacular, and running Obliterator + wastelands hasn't been a problem since I'm counting Wasteland as a spell, so there are plenty of black sources available.

[bracer028]

Been testing some NPH cards in a super aggro build:


4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geth's Verdict
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Mox Diamond
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 3 Choke


I'm trying to forego discard (gasp!) because it's too conditional late game, and I really want greater threat density. I'll still probably try a build with it in, probably in place of Hippies/Nighthawks and Diamonds. Originally I had 4x Lacerator in place of 3x Diamond and 1x Nighthawk just to smooth out the curve, but I'm trying to see if Diamonds are worth the tradeoff of potential dead draws for better creatures earlier. Geth's Verdict has been really spectacular, and running Obliterator + wastelands hasn't been a problem since I'm counting Wasteland as a spell, so there are plenty of black sources available.

so you are forgoing your biggest threats against combo and for a bunch of creatures for a mid to late game fight?

sorry but this is not a competitive deck. you are just asking to die after turn 3-4

[Corax]

I'm trying to forego discard (gasp!) because it's too conditional late game, and I really want greater threat density. I'll still probably try a build with it in, probably in place of Hippies/Nighthawks and Diamonds. Originally I had 4x Lacerator in place of 3x Diamond and 1x Nighthawk just to smooth out the curve, but I'm trying to see if Diamonds are worth the tradeoff of potential dead draws for better creatures earlier. Geth's Verdict has been really spectacular, and running Obliterator + wastelands hasn't been a problem since I'm counting Wasteland as a spell, so there are plenty of black sources available.

what is even the point of playing black without discard? There is nothing you have that is more significant than something Zoo or another nonblack pure aggro deck doesn't have. For threat density, Hymn is one of the most advantageous cards around, don't try to make black into something it isn't.

Also, who run hypnotic specter if you hate discard so much? the 2/2 flyer's time has came and went, I only run him when i am trying to get extra discard. Also don't for get that the original goal of this deck was pretty much Dark Ritual Thoughtseize Shade or Hymn, With the meta being more Zoo oriented now, i can't see how having less discard is relevant. Hymn is always the mvp against red.

[Schembo]

Played on tourney last weekend with this list and finished in place 3-4.

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish

I was palytesting crusaders and they were really good, those protections just are awesome in legacy right now where top3 creature removals are stop, path and bolt. Single cruader won me game against zoo and 2 games against NO bant. Even tarmo have to be 4/5 before he can deal with crusader. Sad thing is that i lost to merfolk in semifinal round due to manascrew, in both games!

[Richard Cheese]

what is even the point of playing black without discard? There is nothing you have that is more significant than something Zoo or another nonblack pure aggro deck doesn't have. For threat density, Hymn is one of the most advantageous cards around, don't try to make black into something it isn't.

Also, who run hypnotic specter if you hate discard so much? the 2/2 flyer's time has came and went, I only run him when i am trying to get extra discard. Also don't for get that the original goal of this deck was pretty much Dark Ritual Thoughtseize Shade or Hymn, With the meta being more Zoo oriented now, i can't see how having less discard is relevant. Hymn is always the mvp against red.

That seriously makes no sense on so many levels...it's like you're just regurgitating something you read 3 years ago without doing any actual thinking of your own.

To begin with, the meta isn't Zoo oriented right now if SCG Opens are anything to go by. Second, even if it was, Zoo doesn't really give two shits about discard anyway. Zoo is the only deck that I keep put together 100% of the time, not to say that I'm a master of the archetype or anything, but I've played it enough to know my way around the deck and be pretty confident with it, and I guarantee that it is not that hard for a Zoo player to recover from discard. The deck is basically 1/3 creatures, 1/3 burn, and 1/3 land, so almost every top deck is relevant. What's more, a Zoo player typically goes into a match expecting to be in topdeck mode roughly by turn 4 anyway. I just don't see how hymn is at all good against "red", because if I'm on the other side holding burn and you play hymn, I'm just going respond by burning out you or whatever you have on the board!

Also, what does Hymn have to do with threat density? It's not a threat itself, and there's no guarantee what you're going to hit. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not.

What does this list have that Zoo doesn't? Card draw, disruption, a sweeper, access to better grave hate, and a lot of sac effects, which I think are pretty relevant with Sneak/Show and 12-post running around.

On Hippie, I never said I "hate discard so much", I just hate drawing it after the first few turns in the majority of games. I like what discard can be capable of, and I like hippie because it has that utility plus evasion, and swings for 2. That being said, I'm still tweaking the list and am planning on testing various combinations of Nighthawk, Hippie, and Phyrexian Crusader in that slot. I also made it very clear that I'm going to test a version with discard, but I want to get in more testing with this list to find out if it really is viable or not.

As far as real-world results so far I've played against:
Goblins: 4-1, Obliterator + Deed = gg
Merfolk: 2-1, the game he won was b/c he had Sower to steal my Obliterator
Zoo: 2-1, path is the only out to Obliterator
Stax: 0-1, top-decked a Moat to stabilize at 3
Thopter/Sword: 2-1, too much sideboard hate
Counterbalance: 1-2, Shackles on Obliterator, had so many possible outs but drew land instead.
Mono black pile: 2-1

So nothing spectacular, but I feel like it's decent for a list that's 2 days old.

Edit: Add to that list 2-1 against Rock with Hierarch. Also a thought, I could replace Choke with Hymn in the board to try and fight combo, but I still feel like using anything but islands to fight combo is like pissing into the wind.

[Greenpoe]

That seriously makes no sense on so many levels...it's like you're just regurgitating something you read 3 years ago without doing any actual thinking of your own.

To begin with, the meta isn't Zoo oriented right now if SCG Opens are anything to go by. Second, even if it was, Zoo doesn't really give two shits about discard anyway. Zoo is the only deck that I keep put together 100% of the time, not to say that I'm a master of the archetype or anything, but I've played it enough to know my way around the deck and be pretty confident with it, and I guarantee that it is not that hard for a Zoo player to recover from discard. The deck is basically 1/3 creatures, 1/3 burn, and 1/3 land, so almost every top deck is relevant. What's more, a Zoo player typically goes into a match expecting to be in topdeck mode roughly by turn 4 anyway. I just don't see how hymn is at all good against "red", because if I'm on the other side holding burn and you play hymn, I'm just going respond by burning out you or whatever you have on the board!

You're missing his point. He wasn't saying "Zoo would be better with discard" or "discard beats zoo." He's stating the entire point of playing EvaGreen. Zoo has better creatures and better removal. I play Evagreen because it has a chance against combo game 1. Hymn, Thoughtseize and Mental Misstep = 12 ways to fight combo. Plus, for fighting Empty the Warrens, we've got Pulse, Deed, and Engineered Plague in the SB. Hypnotic Specter just makes this all the better.

[Richard Cheese]

You're missing his point. He wasn't saying "Zoo would be better with discard" or "discard beats zoo." He's stating the entire point of playing EvaGreen. Zoo has better creatures and better removal. I play Evagreen because it has a chance against combo game 1. Hymn, Thoughtseize and Mental Misstep = 12 ways to fight combo. Plus, for fighting Empty the Warrens, we've got Pulse, Deed, and Engineered Plague in the SB. Hypnotic Specter just makes this all the better.

Well, he said:

With the meta being more Zoo oriented now, i can't see how having less discard is relevant. Hymn is always the mvp against red.

I interpret that as "discard beats Zoo, because discard beats red", which still doesn't make an ounce of fucking sense.

[troopatroop]

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Disfigure
3 Icequake

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Ritual
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp


I don't see why Sinkhole doesn't get more love. I've always been a fan of Land Destruction, because it's a great strategy. This is my favorite build thus far, with Tombstalker over Dark Confidant, and 7 LD spells. Icequake makes Sinkhole and Wasteland stronger, and often denies them of all their lands. Snuff Out and Mental Misstep are free, which is awesome in tempoing them out. The die roll is so important, as Sinkhole on turn 2 is the ideal situation. Dark Ritual gets you -1 in cards, but Ritual -> Icequake on the draw is a redeeming play. It helps cast enough to justify it, and gives you "broken" potential. The Removal and Discard are fairly self explanatory, and round out the disruption nicely.

Thoughts? Any others a fan of LD?

[bracer028]

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Disfigure
3 Icequake

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Ritual
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp


I don't see why Sinkhole doesn't get more love. I've always been a fan of Land Destruction, because it's a great strategy. This is my favorite build thus far, with Tombstalker over Dark Confidant, and 7 LD spells. Icequake makes Sinkhole and Wasteland stronger, and often denies them of all their lands. Snuff Out and Mental Misstep are free, which is awesome in tempoing them out. The die roll is so important, as Sinkhole on turn 2 is the ideal situation. Dark Ritual gets you -1 in cards, but Ritual -> Icequake on the draw is a redeeming play. It helps cast enough to justify it, and gives you "broken" potential. The Removal and Discard are fairly self explanatory, and round out the disruption nicely.

Thoughts? Any others a fan of LD?

its a good strategy before they printed a one drop in darksteel.

[troopatroop]

its a good strategy before they printed a one drop in darksteel.

Mental Misstep. Thoughtseize. If there was ever a time for it to come back, this is it.

[bracer028]

Mental Misstep. Thoughtseize. If there was ever a time for it to come back, this is it.

aside from that one drop in darksteel, the other problem is this.

because of the additional LD cards in the deck, you are thinning out your threats. without your threats, you are basically prolonging the game, which is something a suicide deck wants to avoid. Many decks in legacy can go off with only one land with a bunch of 0 casting cost mana generators. Granted you have dark ritual, but you only have 4 of them. Typically the earliest you can use a land destruction card is turn 2,

Also, since you do not run any card draw cards (i.e. dark confidant), you will eventually have a top deck LD card which is pretty useless late game. You never want to see a top deck sinkhole, thats why sinkhole has been replaced.

Lastly, the LD cards and the creature cards are fighting over the same mana resources. Thats not a good idea.

you can certainly try the LD package, but i find it not as strong as having a fast clock. It might annoying the hell out of noobs, but eventually when you top deck, you will find that you cannot stop ALL of his mana sources.

[troopatroop]

Dark Confidant is a good card, but Tombstalker is a great card. Tempo decks can win with 8-12 creates, and Gatekeeper is removal as well. Sinkhole has been replaced, because people don't want to build around it. Mental Misstep stops everything annoying! Aether Vial, Stifle, Spell Snare, Brainstorm, Noble Hierarch. Locking them out becomes much more realistic, and my deck is very spell dense. People don't expect Sinkhole, which why I think it's pretty good right now.

If you don't dedicate to LD, it's a weak strategy. If you do dedicate to LD, then you can punish people who keep weak hands. Drawing Land Destruction is good when you're winning or even. It's really not unrealistic for an opponent to keep a 2 lander and not draw multiple lands. Dark Confidant does keep a stream of cards coming, but I would rather play the 5/5 Flying for 2. He ends games quickly enough.

Storm Combo will be a bad matchup, but at least we have Misstep/Thoughtseize/Hymn.

I could see making these changes,

-3 Icequake

+1 Disfigure
+2 Phyrexian Canceller

I often don't need the Icequakes, and Cancellor is probably the safer card if we can play it.

[bowvamp]

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Disfigure
3 Icequake

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Ritual
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp


I don't see why Sinkhole doesn't get more love. I've always been a fan of Land Destruction, because it's a great strategy. This is my favorite build thus far, with Tombstalker over Dark Confidant, and 7 LD spells. Icequake makes Sinkhole and Wasteland stronger, and often denies them of all their lands. Snuff Out and Mental Misstep are free, which is awesome in tempoing them out. The die roll is so important, as Sinkhole on turn 2 is the ideal situation. Dark Ritual gets you -1 in cards, but Ritual -> Icequake on the draw is a redeeming play. It helps cast enough to justify it, and gives you "broken" potential. The Removal and Discard are fairly self explanatory, and round out the disruption nicely.

Thoughts? Any others a fan of LD?
I'd say, if you want LD, use pox.
LD definitely compliments discard and mm, but green is an unnecessary splash. I'm pretty sure that Eva doesn't splash just for goyf these days.
Also, most aggro decks will pwn you with mm, disfigure, thoughtseize, and snuff out md. Way too much life loss... even if you win the roll and they don't play vial.

[troopatroop]

I'd say, if you want LD, use pox.
LD definitely compliments discard and mm, but green is an unnecessary splash. I'm pretty sure that Eva doesn't splash just for goyf these days.
Also, most aggro decks will pwn you with mm, disfigure, thoughtseize, and snuff out md. Way too much life loss... even if you win the roll and they don't play vial.

Disfigure doesn't hurt, You're thinking of Dismember. If I'm not running Confidant my lifeloss is "controlled", and those cards keep you ahead.

Tarmogoyf is the two-drop this deck needs, imo. Krosan Grip and Choke SB isn't nothing.

2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Null Rod
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Engineered Plague


I guess I'm missing graveyard hate. 4 Mental Misstep + 4 Mindbreak Trap + Discard seems strong against Storm.

[sb51075]

This is the eva list i ran at the jupiter games may 16th tournament. I went 5-2 coming in 10th after loosing to sneak and tell and mono black agro. I beat dredge, elf-combo, merfolk, pt junk, and a really interesting dredge vine deck.

The only thing i plan on changing is replacing the maelstrom pulse with a go for the throat, and i need to find room in the sideboard for some number of diabolic edicts so you're not a dog to emrakul games 2 and 3.

Sink hole and snuff out were key in every victory i had, with sink hole in combination with wasteland slowing down my opponents to the point that the discard really crippled them.

the list
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
3 gatekeeper of malakir

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtsieze
4 hymn to tourach
3 snuff out
3 pernicious deed
1 maelstrom pulse
1 go for the throat
4 sinkhole

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
1 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 wasteland
4 swamp
1 forest

sideboard
4 leyline of the void
1 tormods crypt
3 engineered plague
2 choke
2 perish
2 null rod
1 go for the throat

[bracer028]

This is the eva list i ran at the jupiter games may 16th tournament. I went 5-2 coming in 10th after loosing to sneak and tell and mono black agro. I beat dredge, elf-combo, merfolk, pt junk, and a really interesting dredge vine deck.

The only thing i plan on changing is replacing the maelstrom pulse with a go for the throat, and i need to find room in the sideboard for some number of diabolic edicts so you're not a dog to emrakul games 2 and 3.

Sink hole and snuff out were key in every victory i had, with sink hole in combination with wasteland slowing down my opponents to the point that the discard really crippled them.

the list
4 hypnotic specter
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
3 gatekeeper of malakir

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtsieze
4 hymn to tourach
3 snuff out
3 pernicious deed
1 maelstrom pulse
1 go for the throat
4 sinkhole

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
1 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 wasteland
4 swamp
1 forest

sideboard
4 leyline of the void
1 tormods crypt
3 engineered plague
2 choke
2 perish
2 null rod
1 go for the throat


going 4 tombstalkers is a bit too much. you wont' have enough cards in the graveyard to delve him.

i would go with 3. then maybe u can go with something else.

the consensus here is that no one runs sinkholes anymore. it has been replaced with mental misstep. Sinkholes are too slow and is usually useless late game

[Richard Cheese]

With your manabase, you should really be running Geth's Verdict over Edict.

[bracer028]

With your manabase, you should really be running Geth's Verdict over Edict.

i would not do geth's in eva. you are running wastelands, bayous where they might waste lands and forest.

i would not trust in geths just because of those reasons. for 1 life, the colorless is much better. in the gate i would run geths.

[Richard Cheese]

So even though there are at least 8-10 black sources + 6-8 fetches, and Hymn, Gatekeeper, Hippie, Nighthawk, Sinkhole, and Tombstalker have all been run successfully, BB is too hard to get to?

[bracer028]

So even though there are at least 8-10 black sources + 6-8 fetches, and Hymn, Gatekeeper, Hippie, Nighthawk, Sinkhole, and Tombstalker have all been run successfully, BB is too hard to get to?

i know what you mean...but when it counts, it counts. its just not worth 1 life.

[Namida]

So even though there are at least 8-10 black sources + 6-8 fetches, and Hymn, Gatekeeper, Hippie, Nighthawk, Sinkhole, and Tombstalker have all been run successfully, BB is too hard to get to?

If you could run spells in all of those spots that did the same thing, and weren't as black intensive, wouldn't you?

[bracer028]

If you could run spells in all of those spots that did the same thing, and weren't as black intensive, wouldn't you?

to each their own. i would not run it all for just 1 life loss.

i've had games where i would play turn 1 swamp, turn 2 wastelands.

or turn 1 swamp, turn 2 forest. (because they have a wasteland out).

Proper capitalization is required when posting on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla

[sb51075]

---"going 4 tombstalkers is a bit too much. you wont' have enough cards in the graveyard to delve him.
i would go with 3. then maybe u can go with something else.
the consensus here is that no one runs sinkholes anymore. it has been replaced with mental misstep. Sinkholes are too slow and is usually useless late game"---

In game one i absolutely want a tombstalker as early as possible to follow up on the tempo advantage thoughtsieze and hymn give. Depending on the match up i will often side out 2 for some hate. But i have rarely had issues with there not being enough cards to delve as with this version games often go long.

The threat of wasteland often forces people to fetch for a basic in the early turns which slows them down, when you can follow up their basic land fetch with a sinkhole you gain a tremendous book in tempo often setting the opponent back several turns. As the meta has slowed down due to mental misstep, more people are playing mid-range decks, this makes sinkhole much better. It forces decks like merfolk to depend æther vial more and as I main deck pernicious deeds, that's really good for me. In addition due to every one trying to play mental misstep you have one less card that they can stop. Often leaving them with dead cards in hand, while you continue to limit their resources on the board.

In game two I often side them out as i tend to be on the draw, where they're not as useful. But the psychological damage is already done and often the opponent will try to play around the now non-existent sinkhole.

[bracer028]

has anyone tried volrath's stronghold?

[Greenpoe]

Stronghold is pretty good as a 1-of or 2-of depending on the build, but I prefer to be more aggressive with Bob+Stalker.

[bracer028]

Stronghold is pretty good as a 1-of or 2-of depending on the build, but I prefer to be more aggressive with Bob+Stalker.

ya i'm thinking of going -1 wasteland +1 stronghold. i cannot thin out my mana base that much.

[sb51075]

I found that stronghold is often a dead card. By the time you need it you have often delved once or twice and there are no targets for it

[Tsnowflake]

Long time eva green playing lurker, first time poster.

What do people think of main decking Extirpate and/or Cabal Therapy?

In the few play tests I've done, turn 1 Therapy can be a real blow to the opponent if you guess right. (I like to name FoW, counterbalance, goyf, stifle and so on...) Therapy can also fairly often hit 2 cards from their hand making it almost a 1cc hymn, additionally the Therapy can be used again later in the game with better success since you have seen their hand with at least the first Therapy and have possibly seen it more recently with another Therapy or Thoughtseize.

As for Extirpate if you hit combo pieces or opposing threats with your early discard it can again be really devastating. Especially on an explosive turn 1 or 2 ritual play.

Here is the list I currently run.

4x Tarmogofy
4x Tombstalker
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Gatekeeper of Malkir

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal therapy
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Snuff Out
4x Ritual
4x Extirpate

8x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Forest
2x Bayou


There are only 2 bayous because I'm poor :(

[JCLe]

Extirpate is a dead/bad card in general, just think of everything that needs to happen right for it to be ''decent''.

If you don't believe that, just remember everytime your extirpate could have been a duress or nighthawk or w/e you guys run in this deck, and count every time its a 1 for 0, sometimes a 1 for 1 and almost never a 2 for 1.

Hitting combo pieces is irrelevant for the most part, if it's in the gy then they dont have it (generally speaking) and duress (or whatever card, a clock, equipement, w/e really) would have done the job better.

It's also not really worth it in the SB unless you expect a heavy loam meta... Crypt is almost always better

[SilkySmooth]

Long time eva green playing lurker, first time poster.

What do people think of main decking Extirpate and/or Cabal Therapy?

In the few play tests I've done, turn 1 Therapy can be a real blow to the opponent if you guess right. (I like to name FoW, counterbalance, goyf, stifle and so on...) Therapy can also fairly often hit 2 cards from their hand making it almost a 1cc hymn, additionally the Therapy can be used again later in the game with better success since you have seen their hand with at least the first Therapy and have possibly seen it more recently with another Therapy or Thoughtseize.

As for Extirpate if you hit combo pieces or opposing threats with your early discard it can again be really devastating. Especially on an explosive turn 1 or 2 ritual play.

Here is the list I currently run.

4x Tarmogofy
4x Tombstalker
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Gatekeeper of Malkir

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal therapy
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Snuff Out
4x Ritual
4x Extirpate

8x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Forest
2x Bayou


There are only 2 bayous because I'm poor :(

Cabal therapy is a pretty big "if," if you aren't intimately familiar with your opponent and your meta. That plus without a constant stream of creatures, its flashback ability really gets weakened. As far as the two card combo with it and extirpate, why not surgical extraction instead? It does the same thing without having to rely on dark ritual in your opening hand. That being said, cards like extirpate belong in the sideboard because you for a spell that you should play early, there is no guarantee that you will if the conditions against your opponent aren't met, meaning the right card isn't in the grave. Combo aside if you aren't getting the bonus of also ripping a card from your opponent's hand, the cards is really lackluster against most control and pretty much all aggro based decks.

On to your list, why only 1 Maelstrom Pulse? In my opinion it is one of the best card in the deck. The mana cost may be a little steep, but the bonus of the utility and the ability to hit multiple targets more than makes up for it. I wouldn't run 4 because of the mana cost, but I wouldn't leave home without 2 or 3.

Also 16 pieces of discard seems like way too much. They eventually will overlap and you will have no target. Granted Hypnotic Specter is a creature but it combined with the other 12 discard will make for a lot of bad top decks and dead cards in your hand. I understand you are probably trying to do it for Extirpate, but again that card isn't that strong against most decks and considering our play-style(suicide) We don't really want to stretch the game out much further with compounding discard.

[Tsnowflake]

Cabal therapy is a pretty big "if," if you aren't intimately familiar with your opponent and your meta. That plus without a constant stream of creatures, its flashback ability really gets weakened. As far as the two card combo with it and extirpate, why not surgical extraction instead? It does the same thing without having to rely on dark ritual in your opening hand. That being said, cards like extirpate belong in the sideboard because you for a spell that you should play early, there is no guarantee that you will if the conditions against your opponent aren't met, meaning the right card isn't in the grave. Combo aside if you aren't getting the bonus of also ripping a card from your opponent's hand, the cards is really lackluster against most control and pretty much all aggro based decks.

On to your list, why only 1 Maelstrom Pulse? In my opinion it is one of the best card in the deck. The mana cost may be a little steep, but the bonus of the utility and the ability to hit multiple targets more than makes up for it. I wouldn't run 4 because of the mana cost, but I wouldn't leave home without 2 or 3.

Also 16 pieces of discard seems like way too much. They eventually will overlap and you will have no target. Granted Hypnotic Specter is a creature but it combined with the other 12 discard will make for a lot of bad top decks and dead cards in your hand. I understand you are probably trying to do it for Extirpate, but again that card isn't that strong against most decks and considering our play-style(suicide) We don't really want to stretch the game out much further with compounding discard.

Thanks for the advice, I see what you're getting at.

So if I up the Maelstrom Pulse count to 2, and remove Extirpates/Therapies entirely, that leaves me with 6 slots.

I was forgoing LD since I feel it isn't as strong as going for their hand in the mid/late game. So if not LD what do I fill those slots with?

I like Powder Keg over Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed since its easier to cast at 2cc and can blow up for 0-1-2 instantly or relatively fast. Even if I go hard with Powder Kegs, and I doubt I'd run 4, I still have some slots, maybe an equip or two? Or some Seal of Primordiums for additional artifact/enchant removal + goyf boosting.

Edit: Just realized I can throw in Mental Missteps.

[SilkySmooth]

Thanks for the advice, I see what you're getting at.

So if I up the Maelstrom Pulse count to 2, and remove Extirpates/Therapies entirely, that leaves me with 6 slots.

I was forgoing LD since I feel it isn't as strong as going for their hand in the mid/late game. So if not LD what do I fill those slots with?

I like Powder Keg over Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed since its easier to cast at 2cc and can blow up for 0-1-2 instantly or relatively fast. Even if I go hard with Powder Kegs, and I doubt I'd run 4, I still have some slots, maybe an equip or two? Or some Seal of Primordiums for additional artifact/enchant removal + goyf boosting.

Edit: Just realized I can throw in Mental Missteps.
Um.. don't do that. Anything but that. Mental Misstep is terrible if you don't have other counters to back it up. It is just way to situational and a terrible top deck. It combined with dark ritual makes for too many bad top decks than the deck can handle. You can try additional card draw, currently being tested are Sylvan's Library and Grim Discovery. Also Pernicious Deed isn't that bad, It handles aggro very well and makes holding onto a dark ritual an exceptional play instead of a dead card. As you have said, it never hurts to add another option to pump Tarmogoyf.

[Greenpoe]

I've been enjoying Sylvan Library. It helps reduce Bob's lifeloss (especially with Tombstalker around), gets rid of bad topdecks (ritual or discard) or can grab you a fetchland to shuffle everything away and find new cards.

[KobeBryan]

I've been enjoying Sylvan Library. It helps reduce Bob's lifeloss (especially with Tombstalker around), gets rid of bad topdecks (ritual or discard) or can grab you a fetchland to shuffle everything away and find new cards.

Problem with library is that it does not add board presence. In any event, eva green is a poor choice to take to a tournament. There are so much cards that eva cannot deal with, especially that new card mirran crusader. That card is brutal.

[Clark Kant]

What do you guys think of playing a build akin to this...


21 Lands (8 Fetch, 4 Dual, 8 Swamp, 1 Forest)
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Yes yes, I know that it's a bit different from traditional Eva Green lists. But I really think Obliterator and Persecutor are extremely potent cards. And by replacing Tombstalker with those, the deck can get away with playing Dark Confidant, which is another extremely potent card.

With 12 1cc cards, 13 2cc cards, 7 3cc cards, and 7 4cc cards, the deck curves out rather beautifully.

Yes, the one of Go for the Throat seems random, but it massages out the mana curve, and it's function is also served by Maelstrom Pulse and Gatekeeper so you won't be hurting to see it.

Plus, with all the basics this deck runs, it's very resilient to things like Blood Moon and Wastelands.

[Tsnowflake]

There are so much cards that eva cannot deal with, especially that new card mirran crusader. That card is brutal.

A well timed Gatekeeper could handle that, and the variants of this deck that run Edicts could stop that too. But yeah don't remind me lol, I'm trying really hard to persevre with Eva instead of switiching to Team America.


Um.. don't do that. Anything but that. Mental Misstep is terrible if you don't have other counters to back it up. It is just way to situational and a terrible top deck. It combined with dark ritual makes for too many bad top decks than the deck can handle. You can try additional card draw, currently being tested are Sylvan's Library and Grim Discovery. Also Pernicious Deed isn't that bad, It handles aggro very well and makes holding onto a dark ritual an exceptional play instead of a dead card. As you have said, it never hurts to add another option to pump Tarmogoyf.

Grim Discovery seems intriguing, I'll have to do some testing with that as well. Since we are discussing draw options, what is the verdict as of today on Phyrexian Arena?

Comparison with Bob. 1cc more, but not as easily removed. Can potentially hurt more or less than Bob, due to Bob being able to get you an extra card for 0 life loss sometimes. Cannot swing for damage.


What do you guys think of playing a build akin to this...


21 Lands (8 Fetch, 4 Dual, 8 Swamp, 1 Forest)
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Yes yes, I know that it's a bit different from traditional Eva Green lists. But I really think Obliterator and Persecutor are extremely potent cards. And by replacing Tombstalker with those, the deck can get away with playing Dark Confidant, which is another extremely potent card.

With 12 1cc cards, 13 2cc cards, 7 3cc cards, and 7 4cc cards, the deck curves out rather beautifully.

Yes, the one of Go for the Throat seems random, but it massages out the mana curve, and it's function is also served by Maelstrom Pulse and Gatekeeper so you won't be hurting to see it.

Plus, with all the basics this deck runs, it's very resilient to things like Blood Moon and Wastelands.

If you are building around Abyssal Persecutor have you considered running Innocent Blood? It would give you some 1cc removal and an additional out on the Persecutor besides Therapy, and it also frees up a potential Gatekeeper sac to be used on the opponent.

To be honest, I don't see Obliterator quite making the cut over Tombstalker. While it has "evasion" in the sense that no one would ever dare block it, it cant be put out for 2cc like Tombstalker. By turn 3-5 having that extra 1-2 mana open can make all the difference whether it be to play some removal or furthur disrupt their hand. While he makes for a sick blocker, I've always believed this deck should be played with the mindset of just going all out and trying to take out the opponent as fast as possible. However I'm open to new ideas, I'd love to hear how your playtesting goes.

[Clark Kant]

Between Trample and it's ability, Obliterator absolutely does have evasion. Your opponent is far more likely to block Tombstalker (with a flyer or reach guy) than he is to block Obliterator.

Certainly not a bad suggestion. I don't want to go overkill on the discard because many games it's a worthless topdeck by midgame, so maybe I'll do a Therapy and Innocent Blood split.

Perhaps something like this...

21 Lands
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

[SilkySmooth]

Between Trample and it's ability, Obliterator absolutely does have evasion. Your opponent is far more likely to block Tombstalker (with a flyer or reach guy) than he is to block Obliterator.

Certainly not a bad suggestion. I don't want to go overkill on the discard because many games it's a worthless topdeck by midgame, so maybe I'll do a Therapy and Innocent Blood split.

Perhaps something like this...

21 Lands
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

I think your going way overboard with creatures. Granted you get all this utility with Phyrexian Obliterator in play but I noticed you took out wastelands to compensate. Against aggro decks where Phyrexian Obliterator would stop your opponent, Pernicious does the same thing. Granted it may be a bit slower, but it is also easier to cast and harder to remove. Wasteland also helps deal with problem matchup where as Phyrexian Obliterator really only shines against aggro decks which we already pretty much kill. Tombstalker is only superior because as mentioned before it has the ability to come down for 2 cmc. Personally i prefer the card that I can play reliably over the card that i could possibly get utility from. With the resurgence of blue, lowering your mana curve is even more important. I'm not just talking about cmc but rather how much mana you have to pay to get the card into play. The truth of the matter is that tombstalker will usually cost 1 less of not half of what Phyrexian Obliterator does. That being said Tarmogoyf essentially serves the same role as those other 7 4 cmc beaters. You really don't need 7 of them when you have Tarmogoyf.

[KobeBryan]

Between Trample and it's ability, Obliterator absolutely does have evasion. Your opponent is far more likely to block Tombstalker (with a flyer or reach guy) than he is to block Obliterator.

Certainly not a bad suggestion. I don't want to go overkill on the discard because many games it's a worthless topdeck by midgame, so maybe I'll do a Therapy and Innocent Blood split.

Perhaps something like this...

21 Lands
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Abyssal requires it to be built around. Its not a smart choice to go the Abyssal route without at least 10-11 removal. Also, your deck has a high mana cure with Obliterator and Abyssal fighting over those precious resources.

The reason people use Tombstalker is because he can be cast on BB.

[Clark Kant]

I based the list of a recent The Gate decklist that I liked a lot. Between Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, Maelstrom Pulse, Gatekeeper and Go for the Throat in the sideboard, the deck has 12 maindeck and 3 more sideboard ways to kill off Persecutor.

Also, between Dark Ritual and Dark Confidant, the deck has no problem with having 7 slots devoted to beefy 4cc creatures.

I do see your point though and it is a good one. Also cards like Maelstrom Pulse (over Go for the Throat), and basic forests don't really function well with Dark Rituals and Obliterators. So perhaps this approach is best reserved for the monoblack version of this deck and Eva Green should stick with Goyf and Tombstalker as it's only beatsticks and forego card drawing entirely.

I would be happy to pit the recent monoblack versions of the deck...



21 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

(I would play 2 Cabal Therapy in place of 2 of the Innocent Bloods myself and also probably make room for a single Volrath's Stronghold somewhere).

against a standard Eva Green list any day of the week though.

[SilkySmooth]

I would like to take you up on your offer. In standard Eva Lists the creatures are cheaper and our removal is more versatile. That's pretty much the only difference. You can't deal with a Pernicious Deed in play, but on the plus side, you are wasteland immune. 7 4 cmc creatures is way too much. You're either going to have trouble with top decking mana (lands/dark ritual) or your going to be top decking fatties without the mana to pay for them. If dark confidant doesn't stick around for you, you're going to roll over a lot of lists, not just Eva.

[Clark Kant]

Lol, no the deck is more reliant on Dark Confidant than Eva Green is on having an actual card drawing engine. It's just a great bonus, but the deck certainly doesn't need Confidant to win. I would prefer that my opponent uses their removal on Confidant rather than the Obliterator that comes out a turn or two later.


Immune to wasteland & stifle & blood moon, having an actual card drawing engine in Dark Confidant, having a manabase that supports Obliterator which is a stronger threat than both Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker (Obliterator is more unblockable than either creature, and also completely shuts down opposing aggro decks from attacking).

Those are the main pros to the approach. Eva Green obviously benefits from playing Wasteland, having a slightly lower curve, and being able to deal with more things. I think it's a toss up which deck is better, but facing off against each other, most of Eva Greens advantages don't come into play, where as all of Mono Black's advantages help immensely.

My laptop is in the shop right now due to a defective fan but PM me and I would love to play a match sometime over Workstation.

[SilkySmooth]

Immune to wasteland & stifle & blood moon, having an actual card drawing engine in Dark Confidant, having a manabase that supports Obliterator which is a stronger threat than both Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker (Obliterator is more unblockable than either creature, and also completely shuts down opposing aggro decks from attacking).

Those are the main pros to the approach. Eva Green obviously benefits from playing Wasteland, having a slightly lower curve, and being able to deal with more things. I think it's a toss up which deck is better, but facing off against each other, most of Eva Greens advantages don't come into play, where as all of Mono Black's advantages help immensely.

Eva can and usually does run dark confidant the same as your mono black list. As far as how relevant the lower curve is, let me put it this way. For 4 mana you can play your obliterator, but for that same cost i can throw down a dark confidant and tombstalker. I could just not block obliterator and without flying you won't block tombstalker, the difference being I will have dark confidant to perpetually draw me cards.

[Clark Kant]

Playing Dark Confidant in a list packing an 8cc creature seems a bit scary. The extra card you get from Confidant could well win you the game, but it could also easily cost you 8 life and lose you the game.

I guess it can be done but I only rarely see any Eva list maindecking Confidant for this reason.

[Tsnowflake]

So i've been doing some testing with Grim Discovery. I really like the card, it was nice to have the opponent burn/discard/remove my creatures, only to have to waste more cards to deal with them a second time. It also helped me recover some Bayous that had been Wastelanded. The only time i felt the card was a dead draw was as an early game top deck, or when my threats got Swords to Plowshares or Oblivion Ring thrown at them, I guess PtE raises the same problems too.

Edit: That game with the Oblivion Rings also convinced me to run Pernicious Deed over Powder Keg, having some extra main deck potential enchant removal in addition to the 2 maelstrom pulses is really nice.

For another potential card draw what do people think of Night's Whisper, or are we already pinging ourselves too much with Fetches/Snuff out/Thoughseize?

[KobeBryan]

I don't like grim discovery. I find it too slow. Late game, its useless when their mana and my mana are stable. It does help recover a card that I might need though.

Early game, its too mana intensive. I cannot afford to play two spells on one turn.

Try Noxious Revival . Great card to play on their EOT.

[SilkySmooth]

I don't like grim discovery. I find it too slow. Late game, its useless when their mana and my mana are stable. It does help recover a card that I might need though.

Early game, its too mana intensive. I cannot afford to play two spells on one turn.

Try Noxious Revival . Great card to play on their EOT.
The biggest problem is again that you have to wait the turn for the card to go into your hand. Without some sort of additional library manipulation, whatever you are going to draw is too late the majority of the time. I actually believe we top deck rather decently. My biggest problem has always been having the mana to play our threats. noxious revival is not a can trip so in the end you will be losing a card from your hand instead of gaining one.


Playing Dark Confidant in a list packing an 8cc creature seems a bit scary. The extra card you get from Confidant could well win you the game, but it could also easily cost you 8 life and lose you the game.

I guess it can be done but I only rarely see any Eva list maindecking Confidant for this reason.
You are just going to have to take dark confidant like a man. It might hurt but the chances of you flipping tombstalker are pretty low. I would be more worried about your running of innocent blood. You run 19 creatures none of which return to the field. The best option you have to sac is Gatekeeper of Malakir, but then you really aren't going 2 for 1 and are not gaining an advantage. You are going to have to end up using it only in the early game but by running only two you won't see it until it is dead the vast majority of the time. I have for whatever reason never been able to get workstation to work on my laptop. Have you tried Cockatrice? It is completely free and i see people here using it occasionalyl to test their own decks.

So i've been doing some testing with Grim Discovery. I really like the card, it was nice to have the opponent burn/discard/remove my creatures, only to have to waste more cards to deal with them a second time. It also helped me recover some Bayous that had been Wastelanded. The only time i felt the card was a dead draw was as an early game top deck, or when my threats got Swords to Plowshares or Oblivion Ring thrown at them, I guess PtE raises the same problems too.

Edit: That game with the Oblivion Rings also convinced me to run Pernicious Deed over Powder Keg, having some extra main deck potential enchant removal in addition to the 2 maelstrom pulses is really nice.

For another potential card draw what do people think of Night's Whisper, or are we already pinging ourselves too much with Fetches/Snuff out/Thoughseize?

I'm glad grim Discovery is also working for you. I'm just wonder if we should be running cards like Shriekmaw to further strengthen the card early. It would defiantly help strengthen the card but I'm worried it will kill our mana curve. It's a thought and something i will test in the coming days.

[Tsnowflake]

I agree with silk, Noxious Revival is card disadvantage, at best 1 for 1 at EOT. With Grim Discovery you can get Wastelanded Bayous (or maybe even your own used wastelands) back in addition to a goyf or gatekeeper etc...

Btw you guys should try OCTGN2, best online magic program I've ever used.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=272429&highlight=octgn

[Clark Kant]

Yes I love OCTGN2. It really is the best online magic program I've ever used. I just wish it was a tiny bit simpler to set up. Why I can't it be closer to this in terms of set up time... http://www.keldon.net/rftg/


I don't like grim discovery. I find it too slow. Late game, its useless when their mana and my mana are stable. It does help recover a card that I might need though.

Early game, its too mana intensive. I cannot afford to play two spells on one turn.

Try Noxious Revival . Great card to play on their EOT.

You guys do realize that Volrath's Stronghold exists right? If you want to bring back creatures, play that. Atleast it's never a dead draw since the deck has plenty of ways to use a land that generates colorless mana. Plus, it's reusable.

[KobeBryan]

I agree with silk, Noxious Revival is card disadvantage, at best 1 for 1 at EOT. With Grim Discovery you can get Wastelanded Bayous (or maybe even your own used wastelands) back in addition to a goyf or gatekeeper etc...

Btw you guys should try OCTGN2, best online magic program I've ever used.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=272429&highlight=octgn

True. Noxious saved my life after several testing. When you need a pernicious deed, you need a pernicious deed.

Since you get it for free, you can use it at your whim.

Volrath's isn't that good. This deck already has a very thin mana base. You cannot afford to be MORE susceptible to wasteland.

[dameus]

Between Trample and it's ability, Obliterator absolutely does have evasion. Your opponent is far more likely to block Tombstalker (with a flyer or reach guy) than he is to block Obliterator.

Certainly not a bad suggestion. I don't want to go overkill on the discard because many games it's a worthless topdeck by midgame, so maybe I'll do a Therapy and Innocent Blood split.

Perhaps something like this...

21 Lands
4 Dark Ritual

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

I love the concept. I tried putting Persecutor and Obliterator in the same deck myself, but I found the mana curve too high. If you stick with it, you might want to up the land count a bit. Also, have you tried Berserk as a 1 or 2 of? Berserk + Abyssal Persecutor is a helluva fun way to end the game.

[Clark Kant]

Berserk is a FANTASTIC suggestion.

A berserked Goyf, Obliterator or Persecutor can all deal 10+ damage in one turn and end the game. That's strong enough to warrant a full four slots imo. Hell you can even use it as removal for an opponent's attacker assuming you have the life to spare (a narrow situation but not impossible). Plus, it can take the place of some of the slots currently devoted to letting you get rid of Persecutor.

Perhaps something like this...

22 Lands
4 Dark Ritual

4 Berserk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse/Go for the Throat

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Abyssal Persecutor

That's probably not close to an optimal build, but it's a quick way to figure out how well Berserk works in the deck.

26 mana sources and 14 sacrifice outlets should be enough to support a full playset of Persecutor.

I actually haven't been that pleased with Maelstrom Pulse since it can't be ritualed out, so I'm testing Go for the Throat in it's place for now.

[stealth]

Also with the berserk and Obliterator, you can wipe their board with combat math...good times :)

[KobeBryan]

Also with the berserk and Obliterator, you can wipe their board with combat math...good times :)

i would not go obliterator in eva green. The BBBB is too hard to cast even with ritual.

Also, I actually think Abyssal is much better in this build, if you want to use berserk.

[thefreakaccident]

I found out during a game of casual EDH that obliterator + the arena is actually a pretty sick combo... Target a 3/3 and you get rid of 4 permanents at their endstep for 3 mana.

[KobeBryan]

I'm thinking in this meta, sinkhole is actually a good choice again.

[SilkySmooth]

I think we are way too focused on Obliterator.

Arena is way too slow for legacy. It may be good in EDH but you never want to draw a non mana producing land pretty much your first 5-6 turns, actually pretty much ever in Legacy. The thing is even with dark ritual your combo doesn't come down until turn 4 and that is assuming you dark rit into obliterator on your 2nd or third turn. Our mana base is already pretty fragile, I don't want to think about what would happen if our others lands were wasted and we were left with an arena in play.

Berserk sounds like a monster play with Obliterator but it suffers for the same reasons that Mental Misstep did. It is a limited to needing a creature and is an awful topdeck. Actually it completely sucks with everything other than Obliterator. Unless I'm going to finish off my opponent this turn I want to keep my creature in play. Unlike mental misstep we don't need to run it as a 4 of to be effective but my question is why this over regular equipment? It isn't an instant and may cost more, but on the plus side barring the unfortunate, we get to keep our equipment and our creature till the end of turn.