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Esper3k
11-16-2011, 02:29 PM
What do you guys like more? a 2-of Darkblast or 2 of disfigure?

Disfigure can get those annoying SFM, the transformed delvers, and a bunch other annoying 2/2s

but it wont' be recurring

You know Darkblast can kill an X/2 creature, right?

You have Darkblast in your hand at the beginning of your turn. Darkblast creature on your upkeep, dredge it back on your draw step, and Darkblast the creature again.

KobeBryan
11-16-2011, 03:33 PM
You know Darkblast can kill an X/2 creature, right?

You have Darkblast in your hand at the beginning of your turn. Darkblast creature on your upkeep, dredge it back on your draw step, and Darkblast the creature again.

yea...but going 2 for 1 for delver kinda sucks.

Esper3k
11-16-2011, 03:43 PM
I wouldn't mind - it's not like they have a bunch of threats to keep crapping out and overloading us :)

Jacemindbreak
11-16-2011, 06:12 PM
What is your choice of graveyard hate?

Leylines, faeries, or extirpates?

Especially in a meta to fight reanimator.

KobeBryan
11-17-2011, 04:56 PM
Would you guys dare to take out 3 maelstrom pulses. Use pernicious deed as a two of in the MD and then add a vendetta or another removal in the main?

Jacemindbreak
11-21-2011, 02:59 PM
How do you guys fight stoneblade decks...its HARD!!!

Esper3k
11-21-2011, 03:03 PM
How do you guys fight stoneblade decks...its HARD!!!

Tempo them out, kill the SFM (if they get Batterskull), make them discard whatever equipment they get, kill the guy when they try and equip SoFF, etc.

SFM decks tend to be blue and mana intensive, so Choke post board is rough on them as well.

Jacemindbreak
11-21-2011, 03:04 PM
Tempo them out, kill the SFM (if they get Batterskull), make them discard whatever equipment they get, kill the guy when they try and equip SoFF, etc.

SFM decks tend to be blue and mana intensive, so Choke post board is rough on them as well.

Would you go dark ritual or dark ritualless build?

so I should use the very very cheap removals like vendetta and such then?

Esper3k
11-21-2011, 03:13 PM
Would you go dark ritual or dark ritualless build?

so I should use the very very cheap removals like vendetta and such then?

Dark Ritual is one of the defining cards of Eva Green, so I would never cut it.

We have access to much better removal spells than Vendetta. Dismember, Go for the throat, Smother, Ghastly Demise, etc.

KobeBryan
11-21-2011, 03:16 PM
Dark Ritual is one of the defining cards of Eva Green, so I would never cut it.

We have access to much better removal spells than Vendetta. Dismember, Go for the throat, Smother, Ghastly Demise, etc.

Yea..I would also go smother over the vendetta.

Vendetta will have problems when you see those knights grow to like 12/12.

Go 3 dismember and 2 smothers if you have space. That should be sufficient to deal with stoneblade.

Esper...would you maindeck perncious deed over the maelstrom pulse?

Esper3k
11-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Yea..I would also go smother over the vendetta.

Vendetta will have problems when you see those knights grow to like 12/12.

Go 3 dismember and 2 smothers if you have space. That should be sufficient to deal with stoneblade.

Esper...would you maindeck perncious deed over the maelstrom pulse?

I prefer Pulse main because it's a lot less mana intensive than Deed is combined with that we generally don't have a huge amount of lands in play.

I'm not super happy with Pulse (I kinda want to go back to running Seal of Primordium), but it's hard to give up the raw versatility of Pulse.

KobeBryan
11-21-2011, 03:21 PM
I prefer Pulse main because it's a lot less mana intensive than Deed is combined with that we generally don't have a huge amount of lands in play.

I'm not super happy with Pulse (I kinda want to go back to running Seal of Primordium), but it's hard to give up the raw versatility of Pulse.

Yea me too...I have a tendency to just throw pulses away with liliana. I really hate seeing pulses when I draw them.

I think the only thing that pulses do is deal with planeswalkers...and planeswalkers are not that rampant in this meta.

Besides, we have enough creatures to smack their planeswalkers in the face.

Esper3k
11-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Yea me too...I have a tendency to just throw pulses away with liliana. I really hate seeing pulses when I draw them.

I think the only thing that pulses do is deal with planeswalkers...and planeswalkers are not that rampant in this meta.

Besides, we have enough creatures to smack their planeswalkers in the face.

Yeah, I tend to also use Pulse to deal with Planeswalkers as well. Another reason not to run Deed in the main :)

Although, one thing I do love with Deed is how sexy it is when you pair it with Tombstalker.

KobeBryan
11-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I tend to also use Pulse to deal with Planeswalkers as well. Another reason not to run Deed in the main :)

Although, one thing I do love with Deed is how sexy it is when you pair it with Tombstalker.

Yea...maelstrom is so annoying sometimes, I decided to make it a 2 of in the deck with a pernicious in the main. (that frees up a sideboard slot)

Jacemindbreak
11-22-2011, 12:53 PM
What do you guys think of using wretched wench as a grave yard hate. its Kind of like a scavenging ooze.

Esper3k
11-22-2011, 01:36 PM
What do you guys think of using wretched wench as a grave yard hate. its Kind of like a scavenging ooze.

Withered Wretch is good, but we could probably just play Ooze if you use any of those BG filter lands.

Jacemindbreak
11-25-2011, 09:15 PM
People in the gate said this belongs here...so where should I put this?

creatures
4x dark confidant
4x vampire nighthawk
3x abyssal persecutor
4x tarmogoyf

enchantment
3x bitterblossom

instants
2x go for the throat
1x victim of night

sorcery
4x thoughtseize
3x cabal therapy
3x innocent blood
4x hymn to tourach

3x liliana of the veil

2x maelstrom pulse

21 lands
4x bayou
3x marsh flat
4x verdant catacombs
4x wastelands
5x swamps
1x forest

sideboard
3x faerie
3x extirpate
2x pernicious deed
3x thorn of amethyst
2x duress
2x chains of mephistopheles

Schembo
11-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Played yesterday in poro tourney qualifier with eva green and got 3th place in swiss (4-1) after 5 rounds and lost first game in top4.

List

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Go for the throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Liliana of the veil


SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Virtue's ruin
2 Perish
1 Nature's ruin

I usually play with 20 lands. Got really bad hangover on tourney day and there was about 1 h before tourney start to pile up deck, sideboard and decklist. Of course there was mistake in my decklist so 2nd round stared with 6th swamp in my deck and got game loss too. That missing card have been random creature removal and i'm going to add 3th liliana in that slot.

Win against goblins (2-0), Merfolk (2-1), Zoo (2-1) and Affinity (2-1) and lost to U/R burn. And lost again in top4 to that same U/R burn.

Virtue's ruin won me zoo game and chokes got fishes really hard.

6 tourneys with eva green in 1,5 years and 5 times in top8/top4 :tongue:

KobeBryan
11-28-2011, 01:23 PM
Played yesterday in poro tourney qualifier with eva green and got 3th place in swiss (4-1) after 5 rounds and lost first game in top4.

List

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Snuff Out
2 Go for the throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Liliana of the veil


SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Virtue's ruin
2 Perish
1 Nature's ruin

I usually play with 20 lands. Got really bad hangover on tourney day and there was about 1 h before tourney start to pile up deck, sideboard and decklist. Of course there was mistake in my decklist so 2nd round stared with 6th swamp in my deck and got game loss too. That missing card have been random creature removal and i'm going to add 3th liliana in that slot.

Win against goblins (2-0), Merfolk (2-1), Zoo (2-1) and Affinity (2-1) and lost to U/R burn. And lost again in top4 to that same U/R burn.

Virtue's ruin won me zoo game and chokes got fishes really hard.

6 tourneys with eva green in 1,5 years and 5 times in top8/top4 :tongue:

like your list. However, don't you find that you realy dont' have enough forests to use ooze effectively? I've been testing Withered Wretch and its been pretty useful.

No one really wants to remove the guy especially when there are goyfs and tombstalkers out on the field as well.

Schembo
11-28-2011, 02:04 PM
I pondered a while for good 2cc drop because there was really too much 3cc cards when i includet lilly in my list. And didnt find better than ooze. I cutted crusaders and added 2 virtue's ruin in sb to help against zoo/mawerik.

I run so much removal + discard so its was never an issua to get creatures in opponent GY. I was about to add 4th bayou in my list before tourney but friend needed 1 bayou for his deck so i borrowed that one(And he didnt even play that deck afterall) Luckily there was never need for more green mana.

lyracian
11-28-2011, 02:44 PM
Win against goblins (2-0), Merfolk (2-1), Zoo (2-1) and Affinity (2-1) and lost to U/R burn. And lost again in top4 to that same U/R burn.

6 tourneys with eva green in 1,5 years and 5 times in top8/top4 :tongue:

Congratulations. How many players do you usually get at the events?
What did you sideboard against Affinity. It always seems a difficult match to me.

Schembo
11-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Usually we have 20-28 players (once we got 32 players, lost that time in finals with eva). This poro tour qualifier got only 13 because there was only boosters and invite for prize (I beliefe thats the reason, usually we have couble duals+fets in pool). So we played 5 round of swiss+top4.

2 go fot the throat and 1 Thoughtseize out, 3 krosan grip in is what i boarded against affinity

KobeBryan
11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
Congratulations. How many players do you usually get at the events?
What did you sideboard against Affinity. It always seems a difficult match to me.

Affinity should not be a big problem for eva green.

Sure they ramp ramp ramp with guys, but with pernicious deed, you can handle the onslaught.

Of course snuff out isn't that good against affinity, but Dismember is great. Also, with dark ritual, you can gatekeeper their creature and block at the same time. Remember, affinity's creatures don't have toughness increases, only power.

By then, you should stablize and they should run out of steam.

Schembo
11-28-2011, 03:20 PM
Now i'm buzzled. Why is snuff out bad in affinity match?

KobeBryan
11-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Now i'm buzzled. Why is snuff out bad in affinity match?

not enough life for their craziness.

with dismember at least you can pay it with dark ritual or use another mana source on turn 2.

How does everyone feel about having 3 maelstrom pulses? I find it very very lackluster as of late. Do you guys think its a good idea to drop it to 2?

Schembo
11-29-2011, 11:10 AM
I tested dismember a lot and come to conclusion that i need to get rid of knight much often than opposing tombstalker (In my meta). And decks playing stalker are usually light on creatures (TA, U/B/w blade, pox) so i have gatekeepers, lilly and Gftt to get rid of them.

On the other hand decks with knight are usually playing lots of creatures (Mawerik, bant, big zoo) and 2/3 can fetch dryad arbor for response to sac effect so i really needed sure way to get rid knight other that Gftt. If these decks make you go in mid/late game knight is usually big enough to survive dismembering and your way to get rid of him are really slim.

My reason to go back using snuff-outs :rolleyes:

2 pulses are absolute max from my opinion in ritual using eva green. Are you using ritual list or slower confidant version?

KobeBryan
11-29-2011, 12:56 PM
I tested dismember a lot and come to conclusion that i need to get rid of knight much often than opposing tombstalker (In my meta). And decks playing stalker are usually light on creatures (TA, U/B/w blade, pox) so i have gatekeepers, lilly and Gftt to get rid of them.

On the other hand decks with knight are usually playing lots of creatures (Mawerik, bant, big zoo) and 2/3 can fetch dryad arbor for response to sac effect so i really needed sure way to get rid knight other that Gftt. If these decks make you go in mid/late game knight is usually big enough to survive dismembering and your way to get rid of him are really slim.

My reason to go back using snuff-outs :rolleyes:

2 pulses are absolute max from my opinion in ritual using eva green. Are you using ritual list or slower confidant version?
I'm using the ritual version without bob.

KobeBryan
12-01-2011, 02:11 AM
I have two flex slots. My main removals are 3 dismembers.


would you use the 2 slots for

2 jittes
2 darkblasts or
2 go for the throats?

I don't run sylvan library since I prefer to just drop creatures down. I run 2 bitterblossoms on the board for control matchups. What do you guys think?

Schembo
12-01-2011, 03:14 AM
With blossoms i would prefer jitte. Faerie tokens are good carriers for it and that life gain may become handy if game is going to extend.

Esper3k
12-01-2011, 09:21 AM
I have two flex slots. My main removals are 3 dismembers.


would you use the 2 slots for

2 jittes
2 darkblasts or
2 go for the throats?

I don't run sylvan library since I prefer to just drop creatures down. I run 2 bitterblossoms on the board for control matchups. What do you guys think?

3 Dismember is your only removal? Any other removal like Pulses, Gatekeepers, Liliana?

KobeBryan
12-01-2011, 11:37 AM
3 Dismember is your only removal? Any other removal like Pulses, Gatekeepers, Liliana?

yea the main removal not all the other good stuff

Esper3k
12-01-2011, 11:48 AM
I'd prefer the GFTT myself then since you're so removal light in the main.

Jitte is good, but since you're only running 2 BB anyways, the odds of you getting both out isn't that great.

KobeBryan
12-01-2011, 02:36 PM
I'd prefer the GFTT myself then since you're so removal light in the main.

Jitte is good, but since you're only running 2 BB anyways, the odds of you getting both out isn't that great.

no no. I have two pulses. Three gatekeepers and three lillys

Esper3k
12-01-2011, 03:53 PM
no no. I have two pulses. Three gatekeepers and three lillys

Oh then yeah, 2 Jitte is fine. Maybe even just put in 2 more BB for more "creatures".

Dragon_mage
12-06-2011, 09:25 AM
Hi there, i was testing this new decklist triying to get the optimus version, I made some changes like include 3 abyssal persecutor and put out 2 tombstalkers and a land, this is because sometimes I don't really like to exile mi own lands playing 2 LftL, also made some changes in the removal set, here is my new decklist:

Creatures (14)
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Other (23)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Go for the Throat
2 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Sylvan Library

Land (23)
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacumbs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
2 Swamp

I include a dakmor salvage 'cause it helps with the smallpox effect, discarding or sacrificing a land, also make the bloodghast better in the case we don't have land in hand but it is the Gyard :smile:

another inclusion is the volrath's stronghold, I did the change according to your recomendation and it have been useful :tongue:

I only have two doubt, the first one is that I wanna include a Phyrexian Tower into my manabase but I don't know what land to cut off, and the second one is my sideboard which looks like this, so far:

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

I don't know if it would be better include some perish instead the pernicious deed and if include some chokes... I will be waiting for your comments and/or critics :cool:

regards

KobeBryan
12-06-2011, 02:22 PM
Hi there, i was testing this new decklist triying to get the optimus version, I made some changes like include 3 abyssal persecutor and put out 2 tombstalkers and a land, this is because sometimes I don't really like to exile mi own lands playing 2 LftL, also made some changes in the removal set, here is my new decklist:

Creatures (14)
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Other (23)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Go for the Throat
2 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Sylvan Library

Land (23)
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacumbs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
2 Swamp

I include a dakmor salvage 'cause it helps with the smallpox effect, discarding or sacrificing a land, also make the bloodghast better in the case we don't have land in hand but it is the Gyard :smile:

another inclusion is the volrath's stronghold, I did the change according to your recomendation and it have been useful :tongue:

I only have two doubt, the first one is that I wanna include a Phyrexian Tower into my manabase but I don't know what land to cut off, and the second one is my sideboard which looks like this, so far:

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

I don't know if it would be better include some perish instead the pernicious deed and if include some chokes... I will be waiting for your comments and/or critics :cool:

regards

You might be able to get a little bit more help if you go to the pox thread.

Pox with green splash...its been tried. I don't know how sucessful it is though.

KobeBryan
12-20-2011, 05:55 PM
would you take this deck to SCG LA?

KobeBryan
01-30-2012, 12:23 AM
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Dark Confidant

Sorcery
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil

Instant
3 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
2 Darkblast

Miscellaneous
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom



SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Smother

I'm having fairly good matchups with tempo and maverick decks with this build. The bitterblossom gives maverick hell and the darkblast helps kill off all of their 1 drops.

The only problem is it is slightly week to combo, something we use to have success against with hyppies, duress, and sinkholes main deck.

Its still a work in progress, but I'm trying to keep this archtype alive, even though I will always play bant in a tournament. But i am interested in playing eva in a smaller tournament to see how i do.

Schembo
01-31-2012, 12:48 PM
Looks decent. Although i would fit that jitte from sb in md, BB tokens are so good with equipments. That one inquisition looks a little bit random.

I have tourney in upcoming sunday and i intend to take eva there. I'm going to play that list i posted a previous page. SB needs some reforming but MD is going to be same.

Local meta is pretty competive and lately there has been lots of SFM decks. So i'm going to test massacre this time and sb is going to look like this.

4 Leyline of the void
3 Choke
3 Massacre
3 Krosan grip
2 Perish

Leyline is meta call. Got team dredge roaming around here and you can always wait 0-6 dredges to pop up in any local tourney. Any opinions about SB?

Decks that have shown up in last 3 tourney: BG pox, Maverik (With and without p.fire), Zoo (Fast), UR Delver, Burn, Gate, Hivemind, TA, Dredge, Belcher, Gate, ANT, Reanimator, Affinity, Goblins, Agro bant and lots of SFM Decks (BW, UW, UGbw)

KobeBryan
01-31-2012, 12:57 PM
Looks decent. Although i would fit that jitte from sb in md, BB tokens are so good with equipments. That one inquisition looks a little bit random.

I have tourney in upcoming sunday and i intend to take eva there. I'm going to play that list i posted a previous page. SB needs some reforming but MD is going to be same.

Local meta is pretty competive and lately there has been lots of SFM decks. So i'm going to test massacre this time and sb is going to look like this.

4 Leyline of the void
3 Choke
3 Massacre
3 Krosan grip
2 Perish

Leyline is meta call. Got team dredge roaming around here and you can always wait 0-6 dredges to pop up in any local tourney. Any opinions about SB?

Decks that have shown up in last 3 tourney: BG pox, Maverik (With and without p.fire), Zoo (Fast), UR Delver, Burn, Gate, Hivemind, TA, Dredge, Belcher, Gate, ANT, Reanimator, Affinity, Goblins, Agro bant and lots of SFM Decks (BW, UW, UGbw)

I'm really not the biggest fan of choke. but to each their own.

why massacre over pernicious deed?

Schembo
01-31-2012, 01:13 PM
Free against maveric, bant, zoo etc.... And all those decks play Qasali Pridemage so you need to have 4-5 mana when you play deed to gain any benefit in case they have mage in play/hand.

Qweerios
02-09-2012, 06:35 AM
What do you guys think about Scythe Tiger?

Along with cheap removal (Snuff Out) and Dark Rituals, he is pretty strong against Snapcaster/StP/Bolt decks. He seems to fit the Eva Green strategy of fast disruption followed by threats, losing a land shouldn't be too devastating.

novatinhu
02-09-2012, 07:35 AM
Saturday I will play with:


// Lands
6 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Dismember
3 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Smother


Any consideration?

My meta: Zoo, UR Delver, BR burn (confident and bump in the night), UW stoneblade, Maverick, DragonStompy, Elves, Dredge and Reanimator basically.

KobeBryan
02-09-2012, 02:12 PM
What do you guys think about Scythe Tiger?

Along with cheap removal (Snuff Out) and Dark Rituals, he is pretty strong against Snapcaster/StP/Bolt decks. He seems to fit the Eva Green strategy of fast disruption followed by threats, losing a land shouldn't be too devastating.

that sounds like a good idea. i'm going to try it and take out the bitterblossoms. its also great gy hate against dredge too.

zulander
02-13-2012, 12:34 AM
that sounds like a good idea. i'm going to try it and take out the bitterblossoms. its also great gy hate against dredge too.

The only problem is that Bitterblossom is better against those decks as the would need Enchantment hate to stop it. Snapcaster coming in, flashing back brainstorm, and blocking your cat is a tempo loss - something that really sucks as you've lost a land, card, and haven't slowed them down at all as snapcaster isn't a true win condition. It's even worse if your opponent plays a stoneforge the turn after you play him. Doesn't seem good against that deck. If you want cards in the board then you have to bring in anti-white cards, because the only blue card you should worry about is jace. Choke is good, but K. Grip kills their entire win-con base. Maybe Deathmark/ghastly demise could get the nod in the board if you're worried.

KobeBryan
02-15-2012, 07:44 PM
Did some playtesting with tiger, he slows me down too mcuh to cast knighthawk or anything else i need at 3.

its a pass.

we need a new beater at the 2 mana slot. or a junded color noble hierach.

KobeBryan
03-11-2012, 07:14 PM
I tested out a new guy. He seems decent at a 2 drop. Porcelain Legionaire

MirrorMask
05-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Don't laugh at me but has anyone ever tested Glissa, the traitor in eva green? It has very good stats as well as some nice synergy with Jitte. Probably 3 mana is much but still as a one of would be fine. Especially if someone runs green sun zeniths. So, what say you?

KobeBryan
05-27-2012, 02:08 PM
Don't laugh at me but has anyone ever tested Glissa, the traitor in eva green? It has very good stats as well as some nice synergy with Jitte. Probably 3 mana is much but still as a one of would be fine. Especially if someone runs green sun zeniths. So, what say you?

not enough artifacts to abuse the ability

Esper3k
06-26-2012, 12:31 PM
You know, the RUG decks switching from Spell Snare to Spell Pierce makes this deck happy, especially lists running Gatekeeper :)

KobeBryan
06-26-2012, 02:24 PM
You know, the RUG decks switching from Spell Snare to Spell Pierce makes this deck happy, especially lists running Gatekeeper :)

My favorite deck...I sold my goyfs...sorry.

Greenpoe
06-27-2012, 11:14 PM
not enough artifacts to abuse the ability

Glissa is useful not because of the artifact thing, but because first strike with death touch means that she'll destroy any ground creatures without dying herself.

Schembo
06-28-2012, 01:00 AM
Glissa is useful not because of the artifact thing, but because first strike with death touch means that she'll destroy any ground creatures without dying herself.

I tested glissa and i didnt like her. That double green was too many times an issue. You dont want to play zenith in this pile.

MirrorMask
06-28-2012, 08:06 AM
I don't know... I haven't had the chance to test Glissa much. The one time that i managed to find her she was so good that she got burned right away...lol. As a singleton she is good i think. My list runs :

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Putrid leech
3 Tombstalker
1 Glissa
4 Skinshifter (which sucks but it is in the stead of goyf which i don't have sadly. Maybe vampire nighthawk in this slot would be better or even Nyxathid?)

I would really like some input about my creature base. I know its far from perfect but i can't help it. Its what i have.

Esper3k
06-28-2012, 09:02 AM
I'm not a fan of Glissa simply because the format is chock full of Lightning Bolt right now.

Putrid Leach is interesting, but again Bolt makes it sad. Although, if you're going to run Leach, have you also considered Death's Shadow?

Do you have any issues juggling Nimble Mongoose + Tombstalker fighting each other for your graveyard?

ReinVos
06-28-2012, 08:03 PM
Bolt is good against Putrid Leech but once you know when not to pump, you are actually preventing your opponent from bolting your Leeches. So in a weird way, both cards are good against each other. The one who bites first, loses the trade.

MirrorMask
06-29-2012, 02:02 PM
I do have some issues but not that intense(that's why i have only 3 copies). If you need the stalker then your mongoose is probably obsolete and has done its job. Also don't forget that mongoose and Jitte don't mix well. This is my MAIN problem to be honest... Also, about the lightning bolt thing, i don't really think its an issue. Between discard and removal the occasional bolt isn't devastating (usually).

P.s What is your opinion on sylvan library in this deck (sadly i have none but i intend on buying a couple)?

Schembo
06-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Playing one at this moment. Its been ok, not great but good. I'm playing 14 creatures so i need some way to keep pressure up if game is going to extend. Usually in control match.

My list for preference
http://i6.aijaa.com/t/00035/10433287.t.jpg (http://aijaa.com/0003510433287)

KobeBryan
06-29-2012, 04:54 PM
Playing one at this moment. Its been ok, not great but good. I'm playing 14 creatures so i need some way to keep pressure up if game is going to extend. Usually in control match.

My list for preference
http://i6.aijaa.com/t/00035/10433287.t.jpg (http://aijaa.com/0003510433287)

Too many tombstalkers for my taste...but the list is very similar to mine.

I use two bobs instead of library and -1 stalker

MirrorMask
06-29-2012, 05:47 PM
Nice deck you've got there! I am in love with your goyfs. I can trade my gf for them if you wish:tongue:. How about a different, more aggressive approach, with rancor in the deck? Something like :

creatures (16)

4 tarmogoyf
4 putrid leech
2 scavenging ooze
3 tombstalker
3 bloodghast



Spells(22)

3 dark ritual
4 snuff out
2 go for the throat
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
1 sylvan library
4 rancor
2 umezawa's jitte

Lands(20)

4 bayou
4 swamp
1 dryad arbor
4 wasteland
4 Verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta


Of course i haven't even tested the idea yet...

KobeBryan
06-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Nice deck you've got there! I am in love with your goyfs. I can trade my gf for them if you wish:tongue:. How about a different, more aggressive approach, with rancor in the deck? Something like :

creatures (16)

4 tarmogoyf
4 putrid leech
2 scavenging ooze
3 tombstalker
3 bloodghast



Spells(22)

3 dark ritual
4 snuff out
2 go for the throat
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
1 sylvan library
4 rancor
2 umezawa's jitte

Lands(20)

4 bayou
4 swamp
1 dryad arbor
4 wasteland
4 Verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta


Of course i haven't even tested the idea yet...

I suggest you test the deck before posting it here.

Otherwise it will be like salvation where people just throw random jank ideas for no reason.

Besides, this is a tempo deck, why would you have a dryad arbor for?

ReinVos
06-29-2012, 07:45 PM
Yeah man. Without a Zenith to get him out on turn one, he looks out of place. I can see that he doubles as a mana source and a guy to potentially equip Jitte (or Rancor) to, but these advantages don't weigh out the risks, and you should definitely cut it.

Also, the points I made earlier about Putrid Leech don't really apply to this archetype. I used to play Putrid Leech in Alara/Zendikar standard and beat up burn with it. They waited for me to pump and I never did. I lured them into keeping one mana open, and then I never gave them an opportunity to use it. Jund was the perfect midrange deck, Eva Green is proactive tempo, very different decks. You really want to pump them in Eva Green, but against a deck with mountains, you really can't. This will benefit them because Leech becomes a bad creature. In some situations you can reap the advantages of them having to keep mana open, but usually it will lead to a weak clock or exposing yourself to a very bad trade.

He could be good if you're playing a very aggressive list but in such a list I would want to play Sinkhole. Simply to be able to punish boltdecks hard for keeping mana open to keep your Leeches in check. Since Leech looks to be quite solid against the non-bolt decks, he might be good enough in some variations of this archetype.

MirrorMask
06-30-2012, 05:24 AM
I know i haven't tested it. i Just wanted your opinions. In my meta very few have red or partially red decks and this is why i want to play the leech. Besides, I must use something in the stead of goyfs. You are probably right about arbor.

Schembo
06-30-2012, 06:13 AM
Too many tombstalkers for my taste...but the list is very similar to mine.

I use two bobs instead of library and -1 stalker

Ouch, you got balls of steel for blind flipping cards for confi with 3 stalkers, seizes and snuff outs. But i try switch one stalker for another library now.


I know i haven't tested it. i Just wanted your opinions. In my meta very few have red or partially red decks and this is why i want to play the leech. Besides, I must use something in the stead of goyfs. You are probably right about arbor.

How about nantuko shade if you dont have access to tarmogoyfs?


Nice deck you've got there! I am in love with your goyfs. I can trade my gf for them if you wish:tongue:.

Thank you. My wife might say something about this:wink: Plus i need all my 8 goyfs if my brother wants to play goyf deck in same tourney.

Esper3k
06-30-2012, 08:08 AM
I've loved Sylvan Library, myself. I've been playing it as a 2-of and it's been great.

It helps smooth out consistency issues and being a suicide deck, it doesn't feel right to be playing cards that don't hurt ourselves #lovethepain

MirrorMask
06-30-2012, 12:55 PM
I have tried nantuko and its very mana consuming. There were a couple of times when it was good but most of the time I used my mana for other things. I guess I have to tune my deck again and try the nantuko once more.

P.S You are so lucky owning 8 goyfs! Unfortunately it was during my mtg break when they printed this fellow. Now at 100$ (for just a creature) is completely out of my reach. :cry:

barrozo
07-02-2012, 02:37 PM
Hi there! Been a long time since the last time I played Eva Green... yesterday I sleeved it to test against some DTBs, and I wasn't disappointed!

I ran:

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
2 Sylvan Library
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

SB

2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
2 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Life from the Loam

The games I lost against blue decks were usually the ones they could hide their important cards with Brainstorm (or the ones Esper could land Jace with safety). So I thought about Chains of Mephistopheles. Unfortunately, its use is a little bit narrow (basically, it's a 'do nothing' card), not to talk about its price/availability. I searched the older posts, I've seen some lists with it, but I didn't see any comments about it. Could someone who tested it say if it's worth SB slots? Thanks a lot.

The rest of the deck I was very happy. Sylvan Library was a boss, Ooze was good (not great, but I don't think of any better 2-drop in its place), and 3 Jitte felt great, especially against Esper and Maverick

KobeBryan
07-02-2012, 02:46 PM
Hi there! Been a long time since the last time I played Eva Green... yesterday I sleeved it to test against some DTBs, and I wasn't disappointed!

I ran:

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
2 Sylvan Library
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

SB

2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
2 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Life from the Loam

The games I lost against blue decks were usually the ones they could hide their important cards with Brainstorm (or the ones Esper could land Jace with safety). So I thought about Chains of Mephistopheles. Unfortunately, its use is a little bit narrow (basically, it's a 'do nothing' card), not to talk about its price/availability. I searched the older posts, I've seen some lists with it, but I didn't see any comments about it. Could someone who tested it say if it's worth SB slots? Thanks a lot.

The rest of the deck I was very happy. Sylvan Library was a boss, Ooze was good (not great, but I don't think of any better 2-drop in its place), and 3 Jitte felt great, especially against Esper and Maverick

I used chains in my sideboard as a 2 of. It really isn't against the blue decks. It outright murders doomsday, enchantress, and elves.

Those players will usually concede when they see it.

mmmetaphor
07-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Hi there! Been a long time since the last time I played Eva Green... yesterday I sleeved it to test against some DTBs, and I wasn't disappointed!

I ran:

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
2 Sylvan Library
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

SB

2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
2 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Life from the Loam

The games I lost against blue decks were usually the ones they could hide their important cards with Brainstorm (or the ones Esper could land Jace with safety). So I thought about Chains of Mephistopheles. Unfortunately, its use is a little bit narrow (basically, it's a 'do nothing' card), not to talk about its price/availability. I searched the older posts, I've seen some lists with it, but I didn't see any comments about it. Could someone who tested it say if it's worth SB slots? Thanks a lot.

The rest of the deck I was very happy. Sylvan Library was a boss, Ooze was good (not great, but I don't think of any better 2-drop in its place), and 3 Jitte felt great, especially against Esper and Maverick

Does the 3 Jitte with only 15 creatures ever cause you problems? I used to run 2 Jitte and would often run out of bodies to attach it to. That said I olnly ran 14 creatures.

How has the singletone Dread been working for you out of the SB? I Run 4 E. Plagues and would have to drop to 3 to add the dread.

barrozo
07-03-2012, 03:35 PM
I don't usually have problems with lack of bodies to equip Jitte. I'm playing 3 of them because of my meta (lots of Maverick/Esper - hence, lots of opposing Jitte, and in a lesser extent, Tribals and Burn).

The miser Dread is basically against Esper and Thalia (especially when backed up by Mom), which E. Plague can be slow sometimes, and yes, it took the place of the fourth copy I had in the SB before. I've just played it a few times, but when I did, it was very good. I'll test a little bit more with this config.

Esper3k
07-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Gave Eva a spin again at my local weekly Legacy tournament. As always, it's a blast to play but sometimes frustrating (went 2-2, but I could've very easily won the 2 matches I lost).

Here's my list:

// Lands
3 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
2 [EVE] Twilight Mire

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 [M11] Nantuko Shade
2 [COM] Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
3 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 3 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [JGC] Pernicious Deed

Round 1 - vs Uw CounterTop

Game 1: I T1 Dark Ritual into Thoughtseize / Hymn and hit his only other land in his hand. He gets stuck on 1 land and I kill him with dudes.

Game 2: He gets down dudes quickly and gets down a Jitte and I can't draw anything to deal with it.

Game 3: This one is depressing and ultimately why I can't really play Eva anymore. I have a great start, wreck his hand and drop a Choke while his islands are tapped. He gets down double Mishra's Factory and a Plains and the single attacking Mishra's Factory goes the distance.

0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 - Uw CounterThopter

Goddamnit, control again!

Game 1: I get fast beats on, but he gets out Humility. I keep dropping dudes and actually kill him with 1/1's before he can stabilize.

Game 2: Long and grindy, but he gets out Ensnaring Bridge and I can't find an answer before he kills me.

Game 3: I draw 3 cards off of Sylvan Library (paying 8 life in 1 turn!) which lets me overwhelm him with threats and I lock him out with a Choke.

1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 - RUG

Finally, a matchup I wanted to play (I want to test my theory that this matchup is much better now that they've cut Spell Snares for Spell Pierces).

Game 1: I get down an early Ooze and grow it to 4/4 before he can Bolt it. It goes the distance.

Game 2: He tries to aggro out on me with double Mongoose, but my double Goyf trump them and my flood of 5 toughness guys seals the deal.

2-1 (4-3)

Round 3 - Sneaky Show

I think this matchup is tough for us, especially if we're not running Edicts in our 75.

Game 1: I know what he's playing and mull to 5 looking for a hand with disruption. My hand is Sylvan Library, Gatekeeper, Dark Ritual and I have Swamp, Fetchland on the board when I Thoughtseize him seeing that he has Show & Tell x 2, Force of Will, Emrakul and lands to T2 Show & Tell. I take the Force. On his turn, he drops Show & Tell, I drop Sylvan Library. On my draw step, I Library into the nuts - land, Thoughtseize, Inquisition. I pay 8 life, Thoughtseize away his other Show & Tell and Ritual out the Gatekeeper to take care of Emrakul. I get a Shade next turn and it goes the distance.

Game 2: I open with Bayou into Wasteland but have a good amount of hand disruption. He rips a Blood Moon off the top and BM's me out of the game.

Game 3: He opens with Leyline of Sanctity and I get stuck on 2 lands and can't do anything about the Leyline.

2-2 (5-5)

Overall, the deck is still a lot of fun to play, but the consistency issues ultimately make it so that I can't really justify playing it anymore.

It's a blast to go back to one of your pet decks once in awhile though!

Dragon_mage
07-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Hi everyone, i'm a current visitor of the forum... i was trying to play some deck with my favourite card "Pernicious Deed" and nothing better than play it in a B/G deck :cool:.... this is my current list:

Creatures (07)
4 Bloodghast
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Other (29)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam

Land (24)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Cabal Pit
4 Swamp
1 Forest

last week I went to a little tournament with this sideboard:

Sideboard (15)
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Disfigure
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast

the pairings were:

1- MonoU Polimorph (2-1): in the first game I made a missplay playing an innocent blood with him having an emrakul on board and a manland which I didn't see. In game two he could not deal with an early abyss on T2 and Lili on T3. In the third the ability of bloodghast to come back from graveyard and a revoker to his proteus staff gave me the victory :tongue: .

2- UR Burn (2-0): In G1 a goblin guide punished me until let me in 1 life then I was able to stabilize the board, then a Lili took care of his hand and lands with her ultimatum plus wastelanda... in G2 an Abyss with the board empty and a couple of disfigure to their threats were enough.

3- UG Infect (2-1): In G1 a couple of innocent blood to the first two creatures plus a winning cabal therapy to invigorate x2 gave me the first round. In G2 a blighted agent killed me on T3. In G3 he put a pithing needle to Liliana but I had a Pernicious Deed in hand which was enough to deal with a couple of creatures and needle, then the combination of loam+wasteland+factory+bloodghast killed him.

4- GW Zenith (0-2): I had to go home and could not play this matchup, so I don't know if it could be good or not. :frown:

...so, this was my second tournament with this deck.... i hope your critics and comments :wink: regards from Chile :cool:

Greenpoe
07-24-2012, 11:00 PM
Congrats on the results! You did great, although your deck is more of a green-splashed Pox deck than Eva Green. You may want to run a few Phyrexian Arenas though, and possibly some Dystopia in the SB if you've got a decent amount of GW decks in your area (anything from Maverick to Enchantress, it's useful). Have you thought about Smallpox? It looks very strong as a replacement for Innocent Blood in your deck with the Salvages and Loams and all.

Dragon_mage
08-10-2012, 11:22 AM
thaks for your comment :laugh:.... I was playing smallpox in the maindeck, but I took out from the list because when I drew it I usually wish that it was anything else... that is why I made -4 smallpox +1 pernicious deed +1 loam +2 maelstrom pulse to go to the tournament and it was good....

now I'm testing a Phyrexian Tower instead dakmor salvage, because it give us an instant speed sacrificing effect to our abyss and the dakmor without smallpox loose potencial.... I'll tell you how it's going on with the tower when I could test it...

regards :cool:

KobeBryan
08-27-2012, 06:09 PM
Lets hope they finally give us an overpowered BG creature...

something as strong as delver.

Schembo
09-03-2012, 02:40 PM
Lets hope they finally give us an overpowered BG creature...

something as strong as delver.


You can always hope. I'm going to test grisly salvage in place of library. It digs deeper, and fills gy for stalker and tarmogoyf.

KobeBryan
09-04-2012, 01:08 PM
You can always hope. I'm going to test grisly salvage in place of library. It digs deeper, and fills gy for stalker and tarmogoyf.

~Lotleth Troll

Creature Zombie Troll
Trample
Discard a creature card from your hand: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
: Regenerate ~.
Illus. Vincent Proce #177/274 2/1


new toy for us...to get rid of late game thoughseizes, dark ritual, and sinkholes

Gui
09-04-2012, 01:57 PM
~Lotleth Troll

Creature Zombie Troll
Trample
Discard a creature card from your hand: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
: Regenerate ~.
Illus. Vincent Proce #177/274 2/1


new toy for us...to get rid of late game thoughseizes, dark ritual, and sinkholes

The cost man, the coooost??????

Also, discard a CREATURE card there, you missed it.

KobeBryan
09-04-2012, 02:41 PM
The cost man, the coooost??????

Also, discard a CREATURE card there, you missed it.

oh shit ur right...

nvm...back to being unplayable.

Greenpoe
09-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Eva green gets one serious new tool:
Abrupt Decay
BG
Instant Rare
Abrupt Decay can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Destroy target nonland permanent with converted mana cost 3 or less.

2 mana un-counterable that'll kill almost anything for the same cost as Smother? And it's an instant!

KobeBryan
09-06-2012, 12:24 AM
Eva green gets one serious new tool:
Abrupt Decay
BG
Instant Rare
Abrupt Decay can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Destroy target nonland permanent with converted mana cost 3 or less.

2 mana un-counterable that'll kill almost anything for the same cost as Smother? And it's an instant!

yup no more smothers now.

what we need next is a BG creature. That is the missing piece in this deck

Greenpoe
09-17-2012, 12:01 PM
Maybe Deathrite Shaman is playable in Eva green? Plays right off a Ritual, and in the early game, it'll accelerate you into turn 2 Liliana or whatever else. Then late game, it'll exile those Hymns, Rituals (and now Abrupt Decays) and Thoughtseizes to burn the opponent. Plus it hates on Scavenging Ooze/Ichorid/KoTR/Snapcaster/Mongoose.

Esper3k
09-17-2012, 12:07 PM
Yeah, this new cycle of hybrid rare 1/2 dudes is pretty interesting!

KobeBryan
09-17-2012, 05:00 PM
Why did i sell my goyfs!??!?!

Esper3k
09-17-2012, 05:05 PM
Why did i sell my goyfs!??!?!

Dude, you should always keep at least as set of Goyfs!

KobeBryan
09-17-2012, 05:06 PM
Dude, you should always keep at least as set of Goyfs!

Hahah...i sold it when modern popped...cashing in on the big jump

Now hoping for a reprint to replay my favorite deck.

The new guy and the abrupt decay may be enough to put eva green back on the scene.

Schembo
09-17-2012, 07:53 PM
Dude, you should always keep at least as set of Goyfs!

Or like me, 2 sets if someone wanna borrow some goyfs :p. I like this new set, got good haul of new potential cards for eva green. Abrubt decay is md material for sure and gftt/smother have to give way with pulse . Depending how many jace there is in local meta pulse might go in sb. Now the question is what to cut to squeese deathrite shaman in?

KobeBryan
09-17-2012, 08:12 PM
Or like me, 2 sets if someone wanna borrow some goyfs :p. I like this new set, got good haul of new potential cards for eva green. Abrubt decay is md material for sure and gftt/smother have to give way with pulse . Depending how many jace there is in local meta pulse might go in sb. Now the question is what to cut to squeese deathrite shaman in?

I think a good way to play deathrite would be to use that new green/black card where we search for a creature and evyrhing to the graveyard.

We might not even need dark confidants in this deck now with this thing. Just dump dump dump and then tombstalker

or dump dump dump and then death rites.

or dump dump dump...bloodghasts.

KobeBryan
09-17-2012, 11:59 PM
20 lands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
3 Deathrite shaman

spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 abrupt decay
3 Grisley salvage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek


SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Smother


Testing this deck. The grisley salvage is GREAT. fills up the yard so fast for tarmogoyf and tombstalker.

Using it mid to late game helps you find threats. when i used it, I've dumped so many 5 card draws where it was like land land, sinkhole, thoughtseize, creature

Then using dark ritual, sinkhole, deathrite turn 1, gets me to accelerate to a vampire nighthawk on turn 2. - with the deathrite.

Schembo
09-18-2012, 07:25 AM
Why did sinkhole make comeback? Dont get me wrong, i like the card and would be great to get my beta set back in action but.... With fetchlands and wastes i dont think getting land in gy for deathrite shaman would be a problem.

I might try a litlle different route with these new cards.

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Polluted delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite shaman

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 abrupt decay
4 Grisley salvage
2 Jitte
2 Liliana

KobeBryan
09-18-2012, 12:39 PM
Why did sinkhole make comeback? Dont get me wrong, i like the card and would be great to get my beta set back in action but.... With fetchlands and wastes i dont think getting land in gy for deathrite shaman would be a problem.

I might try a litlle different route with these new cards.

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Polluted delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite shaman

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 abrupt decay
4 Grisley salvage
2 Jitte
2 Liliana

If there is another card, sinkhole will be the first cards to go.

I am not sure about liliana. She doesn't fit this deck as well as pox decks. Jitte is a consideration.

I do have one thing to say and its that Grisley Salvage is a MUST.

Gheizen64
09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
Maybe it's time to drop the Dark ritual for the deathrite shaman? This format is getting more and more an attrition war, and unless they print some kind of super bomb for 3 i wouldn't play it anymore in any non-combo deck.

Don't get me wrong, ritual into thoughtseize-> hymn is amazing, but doing that in 2 turns would have pretty much the same effect and you'd get 1 more card. Sinkhole become also a lot more attractive when you don't dump your hand as fast and can reuse the lands as mana for Deathrite. Deathrite work as an accellerator AND as a lavamancer for the lategame.

I haven't actually tested the deck in ages, so take this with a grain of salt.

KobeBryan
09-18-2012, 02:10 PM
Maybe it's time to drop the Dark ritual for the deathrite shaman? This format is getting more and more an attrition war, and unless they print some kind of super bomb for 3 i wouldn't play it anymore in any non-combo deck.

Don't get me wrong, ritual into thoughtseize-> hymn is amazing, but doing that in 2 turns would have pretty much the same effect and you'd get 1 more card. Sinkhole become also a lot more attractive when you don't dump your hand as fast and can reuse the lands as mana for Deathrite. Deathrite work as an accellerator AND as a lavamancer for the lategame.

I haven't actually tested the deck in ages, so take this with a grain of salt.

I tried it without dark ritual as well. The problem is that you are too slow to beat people now.

you turn 1 drop a 1 drop. Turn 2 you hymn.

People on turn 2 drop fucken fatty.

KobeBryan
09-20-2012, 06:17 PM
I tried dropping dark ritual.

so now we use Shamn as our mana accelarator. The problem I am facing now is that we have lots of 2 drops. This makes the shaman useless.

for example.

turn 1 land shaman

turn 2 land hymn, goyf, or sinkhole, or jitte

- a useless shaman.

If we focus around shaman, we need ot up our counts to 3. Its been great when I use turn 1 shaman, turn 2 land, and play a gatekeeper or knighthawk, but otherwise its a dead card.

UNLESS we up our 1 drops. which we can use the shaman for effectively.

Esper3k
09-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Having 3 mana on T2 to protect your 2 drops from Daze isn't horrible, but yeah feels like a waste of mana.

Gheizen64
09-20-2012, 07:44 PM
Having 3 mana on T2 to protect your 2 drops from Daze isn't horrible, but yeah feels like a waste of mana.

Or use the secondary ability to ping, or increase the number of Wastes in the deck. Nothing excpetional, but still. Goyf is a 2-drop but can't be played by DR, while Tombstalker isn't really a 2-drop, but benefit more from ritual. T2 Hymn + thoughtseize or thoughtseize + sinkhole is still good btw.

KobeBryan
09-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Or use the secondary ability to ping, or increase the number of Wastes in the deck. Nothing excpetional, but still. Goyf is a 2-drop but can't be played by DR, while Tombstalker isn't really a 2-drop, but benefit more from ritual. T2 Hymn + thoughtseize or thoughtseize + sinkhole is still good btw.

You cannot ping for 2 life. because you need to tap a land and tap the creature.

there are already 4 wastes in the deck.

Thats the bigest problem without dark ritual.

I really think we can move up to more 3 drops and/or use more 1 drops. Maybe 4 thoughtseize and 2 IOK

Greenpoe
09-20-2012, 09:04 PM
Been testing this build and I've been extremely happy with it:
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage

A few notes:
1.Dark Ritual & Deathrite Shaman allows you to easily play some 4cc spells. Sometimes you'll have 2 Shamans and 3 swamps, sometimes you'll have 2 swamps and a Ritual, and sometimes you'll just hit 4 lands.

2. I picked Obliterator as my 4-drop-of-choice because even against Mother of Runes protecting a Knight of Reliquary, they're afraid to block. Plus, he acts as a virtual Moat unless they want to sac their board. Having to deal with BBBB with Wastelands isn't too bad because: (1) I don't mind casting him in the mid or late game, though I'm always happy to drop him early; (2) Wastelands usually get sacrificed anyway, as others have said before - Wasteland should not be considered a land but a spell; (3) Deathrite Shaman and Dark Rit make it very easy to hit his cost. Could be replaced with a Lashwrithe or Persecutor, but Percy requires you to build around him and Lashwrithe blows until the lategame, whereas Obliterator is great even if you have only 2-4 lands out.

3. The synergy that Grisly Salvage has with Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman and the very structure of the deck itself is insane. Tombdaddy becomes much easier to cast, and you can easily cast a 2nd one. Goyf will get bigger at instant-speed - and even though you can't predict how much bigger, if they're, say, attacking with a 3/3 Mongoose and you have a 2/3 Goyf, cast Grisly Salvage and it'll probably become a 3/4. Or, if they try and burn your Goyf, Grisly Salvage and see if he grows. Deathrite Shaman can just go nuts after playing Grisly Salvage. If you've got 2 or 3 Shamans on the field, they'll really clock down on your opponent by themselves. Ultimately, I love Grisly Salvage because the problem I've always had with Eva Green is that it can suffer from being threat-starved. We've all had those games where you need a creature NOW, but you just topdeck...Bayou, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn...even if Grisly Salavage doesn't net you a creature, when you need a threat, it at least dug that much farther down so you will draw a creature, making it a draw-5 of sorts. That said, Sylvan Library may still be better than Grisly Salvage. Library can be cast with a Waste and has benefits over time rather than being a 1-shot deal. Salvage is a better topdeck, and Library is better in the early game, but Library sucks in multiples. Maybe a 2-2 or 3-1 split would be best.

4.The mana-base is fetch-heavy. Lots of fetches are fantastic for the Shamans and Tombstalker. I have zero basic Forests because of the need for BB on turn 2 and because even if your Bayous get wasted, the Shaman can generally save you.

5. Finally, playing 3 Tombstalker and 3 Phyrexian Obliterator feels awesome and has worked great. This is how Black is meant to be played - fast mana, disruption and huge, undercosted threats. :cool:

KobeBryan
09-20-2012, 10:32 PM
Been testing this build and I've been extremely happy with it:
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage

A few notes:
1.Dark Ritual & Deathrite Shaman allows you to easily play some 4cc spells. Sometimes you'll have 2 Shamans and 3 swamps, sometimes you'll have 2 swamps and a Ritual, and sometimes you'll just hit 4 lands.

2. I picked Obliterator as my 4-drop-of-choice because even against Mother of Runes protecting a Knight of Reliquary, they're afraid to block. Plus, he acts as a virtual Moat unless they want to sac their board. Having to deal with BBBB with Wastelands isn't too bad because: (1) I don't mind casting him in the mid or late game, though I'm always happy to drop him early; (2) Wastelands usually get sacrificed anyway, as others have said before - Wasteland should not be considered a land but a spell; (3) Deathrite Shaman and Dark Rit make it very easy to hit his cost. Could be replaced with a Lashwrithe or Persecutor, but Percy requires you to build around him and Lashwrithe blows until the lategame, whereas Obliterator is great even if you have only 2-4 lands out.

3. The synergy that Grisly Salvage has with Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman and the very structure of the deck itself is insane. Tombdaddy becomes much easier to cast, and you can easily cast a 2nd one. Goyf will get bigger at instant-speed - and even though you can't predict how much bigger, if they're, say, attacking with a 3/3 Mongoose and you have a 2/3 Goyf, cast Grisly Salvage and it'll probably become a 3/4. Or, if they try and burn your Goyf, Grisly Salvage and see if he grows. Deathrite Shaman can just go nuts after playing Grisly Salvage. If you've got 2 or 3 Shamans on the field, they'll really clock down on your opponent by themselves. Ultimately, I love Grisly Salvage because the problem I've always had with Eva Green is that it can suffer from being threat-starved. We've all had those games where you need a creature NOW, but you just topdeck...Bayou, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn...even if Grisly Salavage doesn't net you a creature, when you need a threat, it at least dug that much farther down so you will draw a creature, making it a draw-5 of sorts. That said, Sylvan Library may still be better than Grisly Salvage. Library can be cast with a Waste and has benefits over time rather than being a 1-shot deal. Salvage is a better topdeck, and Library is better in the early game, but Library sucks in multiples. Maybe a 2-2 or 3-1 split would be best.

4.The mana-base is fetch-heavy. Lots of fetches are fantastic for the Shamans and Tombstalker. I have zero basic Forests because of the need for BB on turn 2 and because even if your Bayous get wasted, the Shaman can generally save you.

5. Finally, playing 3 Tombstalker and 3 Phyrexian Obliterator feels awesome and has worked great. This is how Black is meant to be played - fast mana, disruption and huge, undercosted threats. :cool:

You may be right about this. I should try this build too. I'm not too found of jitte in this deck and sink hole probably isn't the way to go right now.

I do think 22 lands is a bit much with 8 mana accelerators.

Greenpoe
09-20-2012, 11:20 PM
Hm, good point. The Deathrite Shamans definitely help smooth the curve if you either need mana or have too much, since they can give you more mana when you need it or spend extra mana on the 2nd/3rd abilites. I think I'll go...
-1 land
-2 Grisly Salvage
+1 Obliterator
+2 Sylvan Library
Library will help smooth out the curve, getting more lands when you need them and getting straight up CA when you need it and the "pay 4 life" ability has synergy with Nighthawk's lifegain.

KobeBryan
09-20-2012, 11:26 PM
Hm, good point. The Deathrite Shamans definitely help smooth the curve if you either need mana or have too much, since they can give you more mana when you need it or spend extra mana on the 2nd/3rd abilites. I think I'll go...
-1 land
-2 Grisly Salvage
+1 Obliterator
+2 Sylvan Library
Library will help smooth out the curve, getting more lands when you need them and getting straight up CA when you need it and the "pay 4 life" ability has synergy with Nighthawk's lifegain.

I'm having mixed feelings with obliterator. He is too much considering we use non-black lands. 4 wastelands is a lot for 4 black.

I honestly would not drop grisly salvage. That card is just WAY too good. Helps you search for threats when you need it. There are games where I thought I'm dead, but with grisly, I can dig a threat.

I've seen top 5 cards like this. sinkhole, thoughtseize, land land creature. Thats when you know you will be in trouble for 4 turns.

Right now with 4 grisly's, i'm testing reanimate to smooth out the curve for more 1 drops. Seems decent.

Greenpoe
09-20-2012, 11:49 PM
Well, Wastelands usually get sacrificed anyway, and half the deck is mana sources, so 4 non-black sources isn't too bad. I mean, The Gate builds, for example, would run 4 Wastes yet have no problem hitting BBB for Gatekeeper, so if they can do that, then this deck can get BBBB with Dark Ritual and the Shaman. Getting the mana hasn't been much of an issue, and he can just win games by himself that you have no business otherwise winning.

lyracian
09-21-2012, 07:56 AM
Been testing this build and I've been extremely happy with it:
4 Deathrite Shaman

Not had a chance to test anything yet myself but is not 4 shaman a bit steep? They do not seem so good in multipule?

RBS
09-21-2012, 08:45 AM
Not had a chance to test anything yet myself but is not 4 shaman a bit steep? They do not seem so good in multipule?

I don't want to be rude but Deathrite Shaman in multiple can be quite a finisher:
B, T: does 2 damages to each opp.

Looks sexy even in multiple, at least for me.
"EOT I tap my 2 Shaman you take 4".

Yep and instant/sorcery cards are legion in GY, so please don't use this petty excuse.

Esper3k
09-21-2012, 08:57 AM
Btw, for spells that cost BBB (Gatekeeper) or BBBB (Obliterator), have you guys given a couple Twilight Mires a try? I found that 2-3 really helps get you more of that black mana to help offset that damn basic forest.

Gheizen64
09-21-2012, 10:58 AM
You cannot ping for 2 life. because you need to tap a land and tap the creature.

there are already 4 wastes in the deck.

Thats the bigest problem without dark ritual.

I really think we can move up to more 3 drops and/or use more 1 drops. Maybe 4 thoughtseize and 2 IOK

Oh right, forgot, so you basically can just attack. Still, being able to cast this turn one, T2 lay waste, play Hymn/Sinkhole with daze protection, then add another mana is awesome if you ask me.

lyracian
09-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I don't want to be rude but Deathrite Shaman in multiple can be quite a finisher:
B, T: does 2 damages to each opp.

Looks sexy even in multiple, at least for me.
"EOT I tap my 2 Shaman you take 4".

Yep and instant/sorcery cards are legion in GY, so please don't use this petty excuse.
That only works if you have lots of mana free; not sure with all the other spells that will happen? As I said I have not had any time to actually play test it is just my initial thoughts that I would not want to have several in play at once.

Greenpoe
09-21-2012, 02:26 PM
4 Deathrite Shaman has actually been fantastic. I initially assumed it would be best as a 3-of, but ever since I tried 4, I've always been happy to see them. They literally always have something to do - whether it's making mana, gaining life, dealing damage or just plain old attacking, they really do work in this deck! Remember having maindeck gravehate means you get to hate on: KotR, Mongoose, Snapcaster, Dredge, Past in the Flames, Reanimator, Nic Fit (Recurring Nightmare builds) and other random stuff. Plus, the lifegain is very important vs. Delver burn and RUG. Oh, and it gives way to win via noncombat damage (vs. Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith). The unblockable 2 dmg can add up fast.

About Twilight Mire - I've tried it, didn't like it. You're adding 2-3 cards that to offset the problem created of 1 card (the basic forest). It's not uncommon to keep a hand in Eva has a Waste, a fetch, a Ritual (or now, Shaman) as your only mana sources. If that fetch is instead a Twilight Mire - or worse, you open with two Twilight Mires in your opening hand - then it's a mulligan instead of a potential keeper. IMO, now with Shaman, the deck works fine without any basic forests. I mean if you lost a Bayou, that means they Wasted you. If you have a Shaman out, that's +2 lands in the graveyard.

Here's another thought: If Grisly Salvage is used 95% of the time just to grab a creature (i.e., a finisher when you need one) isn't Living Wish just better? It'll always get what you want and it's castable with a Wasteland. This question comes down to if feeding Goyf/Shaman/Stalker is better than being 100% certain of getting what you want. I'm sticking with Salvage for now because I don't know. Been thinking about Volrath's Stronghold too. Salvage can grab it and it'll let you recur your guys that you bin with Salvage, it's just really slow and doesn't tap for B.

KobeBryan
09-21-2012, 03:11 PM
4 Deathrite Shaman has actually been fantastic. I initially assumed it would be best as a 3-of, but ever since I tried 4, I've always been happy to see them. They literally always have something to do - whether it's making mana, gaining life, dealing damage or just plain old attacking, they really do work in this deck! Remember having maindeck gravehate means you get to hate on: KotR, Mongoose, Snapcaster, Dredge, Past in the Flames, Reanimator, Nic Fit (Recurring Nightmare builds) and other random stuff. Plus, the lifegain is very important vs. Delver burn and RUG. Oh, and it gives way to win via noncombat damage (vs. Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith). The unblockable 2 dmg can add up fast.

About Twilight Mire - I've tried it, didn't like it. You're adding 2-3 cards that to offset the problem created of 1 card (the basic forest). It's not uncommon to keep a hand in Eva has a Waste, a fetch, a Ritual (or now, Shaman) as your only mana sources. If that fetch is instead a Twilight Mire - or worse, you open with two Twilight Mires in your opening hand - then it's a mulligan instead of a potential keeper. IMO, now with Shaman, the deck works fine without any basic forests. I mean if you lost a Bayou, that means they Wasted you. If you have a Shaman out, that's +2 lands in the graveyard.

Here's another thought: If Grisly Salvage is used 95% of the time just to grab a creature (i.e., a finisher when you need one) isn't Living Wish just better? It'll always get what you want and it's castable with a Wasteland. This question comes down to if feeding Goyf/Shaman/Stalker is better than being 100% certain of getting what you want. I'm sticking with Salvage for now because I don't know. Been thinking about Volrath's Stronghold too. Salvage can grab it and it'll let you recur your guys that you bin with Salvage, it's just really slow and doesn't tap for B.

The power of salvage isn't the ability to get the creature when you need it. The power truly comes from the card filter. It digs 5 deep. We all know the weakness of this deck, and that is that it has very very poor topdecking.

Late game hymns, sinkholes, thoughtseizes, duress, IOK are lousy. Grisly filters 4 cards from the top of your library. Then theres the inherent ability to feed goyfs, tombstalkers, and now the shaman.

death
09-22-2012, 12:40 PM
I looked a couple of pages back and noticed that Bob has been dropped from the lists. I would probably cut Tombstalker down to 2 just to make room for him. You could filter reveals through Sensei's Divining Top before Bob trigger anyway, right? Bob, Dark Ritual, Sinkhole + Wasteland all work together towards gaining Tempo if that's what we're after.


The power of salvage isn't the ability to get the creature when you need it. The power truly comes from the card filter. It digs 5 deep. We all know the weakness of this deck, and that is that it has very very poor topdecking.

Late game hymns, sinkholes, thoughtseizes, duress, IOK are lousy. Grisly filters 4 cards from the top of your library. Then theres the inherent ability to feed goyfs, tombstalkers, and now the shaman.

SDT can help you find lands if you're light on lands, a much versatile choice than Salvage in my opinion. And, because SDTs are reusable they are good for library manipulation, since that is the weakness of this deck.

Gheizen64
09-22-2012, 01:20 PM
I looked a couple of pages back and noticed that Bob has been dropped from the lists. I would probably cut Tombstalker down to 2 just to make room for him. You could filter reveals through Sensei's Divining Top before Bob trigger anyway, right? Bob, Dark Ritual, Sinkhole + Wasteland all work together towards gaining Tempo if that's what we're after.



SDT can help you find lands if you're light on lands, a much versatile choice than Salvage in my opinion. And, because SDTs are reusable they are good for library manipulation, since that is the weakness of this deck.

Bob were never in Eva green original design anyway. The original deck had Shade, Hyppie, Tombstalker and Goyfs as the only creatures iirc.

Greenpoe
09-22-2012, 02:38 PM
SDT is pretty mana intensive, though, and I think in this deck, Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library will usually be better. Unlike blue decks, Eva doesn't have that many instants, no Brainstorms or counterspells to drop in response, etc. The benefit of the card selection-type cards is that they have more benefits over time and help you find Hymns and Decays when you need them. Card selection really helps if you get manaflooded or end up drawing land after land.

However, with 4 Obliterator, 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Tombstalker, Grisly Salvage has a good chance of getting you an excellent. That said, the way the deck plays now. Instead of a gradual benefit, it plays a let's-win-now role. And that's really great most of the time. Still I wonder if there's something better, like some tutor or Wish which is why I considered Living Wish or Grim Tutor or something. Living Wish could fetch things like Karakas vs. Emrakul/Griselbrand, Maze of Ith vs. big attackers, Thrun vs. Jace, Silent Arbiter vs. Goblins, and so forth, but then again, Goblins can Gempalm an Arbiter, Jace can Terminus a Thrun, and those S&T decks can just Ominiscience a win out.

death
09-22-2012, 05:00 PM
The creators of the original deck believed that Bob makes the deck less aggressive, slow. There have been successful builds I've seen around with Bob, I just think that extra draws + Abrupt Decay/hand disruption/land destruction will make up a nice Eva Green deck.

Creatures -17
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker

Spells -16
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

Flex slots -6
2 Liliana of the Veil/Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Dark Ritual/Sensei's Divining Top

Lands -21
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

KobeBryan
09-22-2012, 06:04 PM
I think bob and senseis is probably one of the worst ideas in this game.

This game isn't a grinder. Sensei's is only good in the long haul. Same with Bob.

This deck is all about power, suicide and pounding face with your initial 7 cards.

Thats why dark ritual is useful in this deck, same with 1 mana discard, and an undercosted fatty.

Valtrix
09-22-2012, 06:23 PM
Personally I think that dark ritual does not give you enough aggression in order to justify the card disadvantage you're getting in the long run. Putting a 2/X into play isn't really an aggressive strategy no matter how you look at it. In fact if you look at some of the best creatures like Gatekeeper and bob you should see that this deck actually likes to generate card advantage in the longer term. Especially with how high the curve of this deck is, you're not going to be out-aggroing anybody. I would play top for long term advantage any day of the week.

Greenpoe
09-22-2012, 07:29 PM
Personally I think that dark ritual does not give you enough aggression in order to justify the card disadvantage you're getting in the long run. Putting a 2/X into play isn't really an aggressive strategy no matter how you look at it. In fact if you look at some of the best creatures like Gatekeeper and bob you should see that this deck actually likes to generate card advantage in the longer term. Especially with how high the curve of this deck is, you're not going to be out-aggroing anybody. I would play top for long term advantage any day of the week.

4 Rituals, 4 Shamans means you've got some serious acceleration on your hands. You need the acceleration because it's a tempo-deck. Having a 5/5 creature out by turn 3 is pretty common (and occasionally turn 2). But if you have a problem with the 2/x creatures, then switch them out (such as Glissa, the Traitor instead of Vampire Nighthawk, and throw in, say, Skittering Horror or Demonic Taskmaster).
If you want to play a control-oriented game with Tops instead of Rituals, then you'll end up with a green-splashed version of The Gate. But I think The Gate is too slow - BG Nic Fit is basically just today's version of The Gate- it's within 10 or 15 cards of Nic Fit - both run cards like Abyssal Persecutor, Liliana, Hymn, Top, Cabal Therapy. Plus The Gate + green would want Deeds and Maelstrom Pulse, just like Nic Fit. It's just that one runs Gatekeeper, Nighthawk Bob, the other runs GSZ, Veteran Explorer and some 5-6cc cards.

death
09-22-2012, 08:35 PM
I really don't see them splashing green any time soon, otherwise it won't be called The Gate. No disrespect to Hollywood but that deck hasn't been updated in over a year. Besides we have bigger threats )Tarmogoyfs), we can play sweepers (Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse), and with RTR we get Abrupt Decay which has by far a more obscene amount of applications than mono-black removal.

I think Bob and Gatekeeper are good meta choices right now. Bob is a magnet for removal, if he survives then we bury them in CA/CQ. Drawing more cards is not particularly terrible at all when Bob can refill your graveyard and overwhelm control with threats. This deck can't win a race with swarm decks, Ritual+Ritual Tombstalker loses to Innocent Blood. Ideally you disrupt their hand/mana sources, deal with dorks. Then we bring them to the part where this deck shines, and that is the mid-game. In testing, I feel that 2 Sensei's Divining Top are enough.

KobeBryan
09-23-2012, 03:56 AM
I really don't see them splashing green any time soon, otherwise it won't be called The Gate. No disrespect to Hollywood but that deck hasn't been updated in over a year. Besides we have bigger threats )Tarmogoyfs), we can play sweepers (Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse), and with RTR we get Abrupt Decay which has by far a more obscene amount of applications than mono-black removal.

I think Bob and Gatekeeper are good meta choices right now. Bob is a magnet for removal, if he survives then we bury them in CA/CQ. Drawing more cards is not particularly terrible at all when Bob can refill your graveyard and overwhelm control with threats. This deck can't win a race with swarm decks, Ritual+Ritual Tombstalker loses to Innocent Blood. Ideally you disrupt their hand/mana sources, deal with dorks. Then we bring them to the part where this deck shines, and that is the mid-game. In testing, I feel that 2 Sensei's Divining Top are enough.


Eva green a mid game deck? thats news to me. well of course you cannot beat swarm decks, you are using cards like bob and senseis.

If you read the matchup analysis, this deck actually beats swarm decks. it has a very positive matchup against goblins and merfolk...that is until you changed it all up.

Gheizen64
09-23-2012, 07:35 AM
The creators of the original deck believed that Bob makes the deck less aggressive, slow. There have been successful builds I've seen around with Bob, I just think that extra draws + Abrupt Decay/hand disruption/land destruction will make up a nice Eva Green deck.

Creatures -17
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker

Spells -16
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

Flex slots -6
2 Liliana of the Veil/Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Dark Ritual/Sensei's Divining Top

Lands -21
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

If u want to go the grindy route with Bob, you have 0 reasons to play rituals. Bob is a good creature only in a deck that aim to finish to draw out the game, not in a deck that want to drop undercosted fatties T2 and T3. That's why i never liked Gatekeepers and Nighthawk, they're good creatures, but aren't good in a explosive deck. Ritual a T1 2/3 flying? Make no sense when you consider that delver is a 3/2 that doesn't need you to waste an additional card on it. Gatekeeper is the same, you can't ritual him T1. If you want to play such a deck drop the sinkholes and the hymn.

Dunno, to me this should be Suicide, else we could play Team america or Nice Fit.

death
09-23-2012, 10:01 AM
I'm liking the creature configuration as of now, Bob is phenomenal, I dropped two when my opponent was doing nothing, he died 3 turns later. Of course Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker are still the finishers in the deck, but both Gatekeeper and Nighthawk are good at clearing the way for them. Gatekeeper can answer S&T > Emrakul. I tested the deck with 3 Dark Rituals instead of Tops, I think I like Rituals more because of the explosiveness, being able to drop 2 threats in a turn, and being able to work around Spell Pierce.

Hymn is great when played alongside 4 Thoughtseizes, Hymn makes your Goyfs grow big fast too. Hymn stays in the deck. As for Sinkhole, they were great against dual/multi-color decks. Against Terminus/Plow decks I was able to secure a win by denying them W with the help of Wastelands. I want to see how others are doing with Deathrite Shaman and Grisly Salvage in their builds.

tsabo_tavoc
09-23-2012, 05:54 PM
I was super excited about the application of Grisly Salvage and Deathrite Shaman in this deck! With Salvage, the critical mass of threats is reached and there is no need to run less efficient ones such as Nighthawk or Obliterator. Shaman is an upgrade of Dark Ritual in terms of versatility. There is no more broken play as Ritual -> Thoughtseize & Hymn, but how often does it happen? Moreover, the Hymn slots are questionable as Cabal Therapy is better with the right support. Here is a sample list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tombstalker
4 Grisly Salvage

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

Yes, be a man and play 4 Confidant and 4 Tombstalker. A Tombstalker is worthwhile the 8 life loss and there are ways to gain life or get rid of the Confidant if needed.

joemauer
09-23-2012, 06:14 PM
I think I would try Bloodghast over Tombstalker. It seems to have better synergy with your deck.

Tombstalker+Dark Confidant-Sensei's Divining Top=Epic Loss. You can't be a bad ass if you are throwing away your games.

tsabo_tavoc
09-23-2012, 06:34 PM
I think I would try Bloodghast over Tombstalker. It seems to have better synergy with your deck.

Tombstalker+Dark Confidant-Sensei's Divining Top=Epic Loss. You can't be a bad ass if you are throwing away your games.

Thanks for your feedback. I have explained why Confidant would not be a problem at < 9 life. However, if one wants to be on the absolute safe side, cut the Confidants, not the Tombstalkers, and replace them with creatures better than Bloodghast.

KobeBryan
09-23-2012, 08:48 PM
I was super excited about the application of Grisly Salvage and Deathrite Shaman in this deck! With Salvage, the critical mass of threats is reached and there is no need to run less efficient ones such as Nighthawk or Obliterator. Shaman is an upgrade of Dark Ritual in terms of versatility. There is no more broken play as Ritual -> Thoughtseize & Hymn, but how often does it happen? Moreover, the Hymn slots are questionable as Cabal Therapy is better with the right support. Here is a sample list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tombstalker
4 Grisly Salvage

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

Yes, be a man and play 4 Confidant and 4 Tombstalker. A Tombstalker is worthwhile the 8 life loss and there are ways to gain life or get rid of the Confidant if needed.

you probably can get rid of the ooze. you have 4 shaman to hate on GY.

ooze is too mid game and mana intensive anyways.

Schembo
09-25-2012, 01:27 AM
you probably can get rid of the ooze. you have 4 shaman to hate on GY.

ooze is too mid game and mana intensive anyways.

Yep, when i added ooze in this deck i was searching a good 2cc drop to lower curve because of liliana was squeezing in. Black got good ways to disrupt gy and ooze was newer my main gy hate. In my list Grisly Salvage took ooze's and sylvan library's place.

Tested a lot with these new cards in past days. i'm greatly pleased how much AD puffed canadian match up. Liliana is something i need to think about.... its really good in first/second turn but im missing snuff-out really much against goblins and maverick.

death
09-25-2012, 05:29 PM
What I like about Liliana (and Pulse) is that they can deal with a threat immediately and make way for your attackers. So I'm putting P. Deed in the SB at the moment, I'm not sure if that's the right call but the deck feels more fluid with 1 Liliana/2 M. Pulse combination. In testing, I seldom wished my Pulses were Deeds. Also because your Confidants, Goyfs and Gatekeepers take collateral damage from blowing up a Deed.

Greenpoe
09-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Maybe in the black-weenie builds (Confidant/Nighthawk/Gatekeeper/Deathrite Shaman), Skirsdag High Priest could be worth a few slots. All the little guys + Abrupt Decay means his ability should be pretty easy to trigger. Might need Bitterblossom to be decent, though.

KobeBryan
09-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Maybe in the black-weenie builds (Confidant/Nighthawk/Gatekeeper/Deathrite Shaman), Skirsdag High Priest could be worth a few slots. All the little guys + Abrupt Decay means his ability should be pretty easy to trigger. Might need Bitterblossom to be decent, though.

I don't like the high priest. Its too slow. And when in eva green's history would you get an untapped creature?

This deck needs more 1 drops thats for sure. A one drop creature more likely. I mean nighthawk is a 2/3 for 3. Delver is a 1 for a 3/2.

We need something to combat that.

death
09-26-2012, 03:27 PM
I concur. Is it worth losing tempo, an attack phase for a 5/5 flyer while opponent sets up a Terminus or Deed to wipe them away anyway? When you can just swing and drop an undercosted fatty (If you're not anticipating mass removal). Who needs evasion if we can run 4 Gatekeepers, 4 AD + Liliana/Maelstrom Pulse to get a clear path.

jonny_rogue
09-26-2012, 09:06 PM
With the new additions coming from return to ravnica I think this deck is on the cusp of breaking through. In my opinion the burning question this deck needs to answer right now is to play Dark Confidant or not. Playing confidant means not playing Tombstalker (unless you are completely reckless and life losing random games that you should otherwise win).

Not playing confidant means an increase in the amount of games where we will fizzle out- a common problem this deck has. The upshot is you get to play Tombstalker and the deck is more raw power. If we opt for tombstalker, does a mix of sylvan library and sensei's top give us enough library manipulation to avoid mid-late game top decking woes? I realize grisly salvage helps here somewhat but still not be enough.

If we play confidant then what is tombstalkers replacement? Obliterator is a nice option but at 4cc I feel like I'd probably only play 2 copies at most.

Having said that, I really like greenpoe's list. The only thing missing is a draw engine or library manipulation of some sort. I feel like this deck just needs a little something to push it over the edge and make it a regular contender.

list 1:


4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Grisly Salvage
2 x Maelstrom Pulse
1 x Silvan Library
1 x Sensei's Divining Top

3 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Tombstalker
1 x Phyrexian Obliterator

4 x Wasteland
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Bayou
1 x Salt Marsh
3 x Swamp


List 2 I would swap Dark Confidant for the Tombstalkers and the top and Gatekeeper for 2x more obliterator.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

death
09-26-2012, 10:23 PM
Salt Marsh, really?

jonny_rogue
09-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Salt Marsh, really?

Or maybe marsh flats... oops.

mmmetaphor
10-06-2012, 10:54 AM
With the new additions coming from return to ravnica I think this deck is on the cusp of breaking through. In my opinion the burning question this deck needs to answer right now is to play Dark Confidant or not. Playing confidant means not playing Tombstalker (unless you are completely reckless and life losing random games that you should otherwise win).

Not playing confidant means an increase in the amount of games where we will fizzle out- a common problem this deck has. The upshot is you get to play Tombstalker and the deck is more raw power. If we opt for tombstalker, does a mix of sylvan library and sensei's top give us enough library manipulation to avoid mid-late game top decking woes? I realize grisly salvage helps here somewhat but still not be enough.

If we play confidant then what is tombstalkers replacement? Obliterator is a nice option but at 4cc I feel like I'd probably only play 2 copies at most.

Having said that, I really like greenpoe's list. The only thing missing is a draw engine or library manipulation of some sort. I feel like this deck just needs a little something to push it over the edge and make it a regular contender.

list 1:


4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Grisly Salvage
2 x Maelstrom Pulse
1 x Silvan Library
1 x Sensei's Divining Top

3 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Tombstalker
1 x Phyrexian Obliterator

4 x Wasteland
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Bayou
1 x Salt Marsh
3 x Swamp


List 2 I would swap Dark Confidant for the Tombstalkers and the top and Gatekeeper for 2x more obliterator.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

I'm not convinced sinkhole is worth the slots right any longer. Icc Pinpoint discard and/or some additional removal might be prefered. Something like +2 IoK +2 Ghastly demise, -4 Sinkhole?

Also, I'd be tempted to add 2-3 Eternal witness in an attempt to abuse grisly salvage a bit more. Although the GG could cause problems at times. Just a thought.

dave8
10-11-2012, 04:50 AM
I think that neither sinkhole nor dark ritual is actually good in this deck.
Recently I've been testing the following list (with very very good results I must say):


4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
2 Bloodghast

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Sideboard

3 Extirpate
3 Virtue's Ruin
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Plague
3 Bitterblossom
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast



Card choice:
Lands:
I play 10 fetches as a Deathrite Shaman fuel. The rest is quite obvious.
Creatures:
Deathrite Shaman is absolutely amazing. This guy just wins games.
I still don't know if Bloodghast is really good here but I wanted to get extra value from Grisly Salvage. I tested Gatekeeper of Malakir in those slots but it was so so. The other options I'm considering are:
Vampire Nighthawk - not too effective in my opinion.
Terravore - I don't know if we want a stupid beater which has none synergy with Deathrite Shaman. GG in the cost can be a problem too.
Eternal Withess - Great synergy with Grisly Salvage but again GG in cost.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Spells:
All choices are quite obvious. We have discard, removal, controlling elements such as Liliana of the Veil and Sensei's Divining Top which helps you a lot when you have both Tombstalker and Dark Confidant in a deck.

What is very strong with this deck it is its very solid matchup against almost all tier1 decks.
Matchups:
RUG Delver - thanks to Abrupt Decay this matchup is nearly non-loosable unless they draw something like 5-6 Creatures.
Maverick - very poor matchup G1 - If they untap with Mother of Runes you loose to Knight of the Reliquary or big Scavenging Ooze. This matchup turns to very favorable after bord though. One sided wrath Virtue's Ruin and Engineered Plaque naming Human is bonkers. The only card left to deal with is Scavenging Ooze
Storm Combo - I think it is 50/50. We have strong disruption and tempo which in general beats Storm. Nevertheless so they can just draw 3 cards from the top and win.
Reanimator - very favorable - you can't loose it unless they have something like a God hand; G1 if Deathrite Shaman or Liliana of the Veil hits the board they just can't win. G2 is even easier when we add Extirpate
Goblins - yet again favorable matchup - multiple Tarmogoyf shine here. G2 is even easier because of Engineered Plague

I still didn't tested neither against Show and Tell decks (but from my experience as a former Sneak&Show player heavy discard is a problem for those decks) nor against UW Miracles (Bitterblossom should win games here).

lavafrogg
10-11-2012, 05:20 AM
Why are you guys finding Deathrite Shaman so nuts?

I cannot seem to convince anyone in the rock thread that he is good, am I missing something?

Stuuch
10-11-2012, 05:25 AM
Why are you guys finding Deathrite Shaman so nuts?

I cannot seem to convince anyone in the rock thread that he is good, am I missing something?

Well because it belongs here and it does not belong in The Rock. Maybe as a Zenith target it could work but not ass a 4 off like in this deck.

lavafrogg
10-11-2012, 05:36 AM
Well because it belongs here and it does not belong in The Rock. Maybe as a Zenith target it could work but not ass a 4 off like in this deck.

In the words of my little sister: why?

tsabo_tavoc
10-11-2012, 05:38 AM
Why are you guys finding Deathrite Shaman so nuts?

I cannot seem to convince anyone in the rock thread that he is good, am I missing something?

1. Eva plays Wasteland;
2. Eva plays very aggroish and has a tradition for acceleration (Dark Ritual).
3. Rock is more controllish and Shaman gets eaten by Pernicious Deed.

lavafrogg
10-11-2012, 05:43 AM
1. Eva plays Wasteland;
2. Eva plays very aggroish and has a tradition for acceleration (Dark Ritual).
3. Rock is more controllish and Shaman gets eaten by Pernicious Deed.

1. Rock plays wasteland.
2. Rock plays aggressively and has a tradition for acceleration (mox diamond)
3. People do not play pernicious deed, and if we do we don't care that our mana dork dies.

Next reasons that have no validity?

lavafrogg
10-11-2012, 05:45 AM
Can't edit posts?

I'm just asking why you guys are playing him and how you benifit from the new card. I didn't mean to sound so assholish

dave8
10-11-2012, 05:53 AM
1. Rock plays wasteland.
2. Rock plays aggressively and has a tradition for acceleration (mox diamond)
3. People do not play pernicious deed, and if we do we don't care that our mana dork dies.

Next reasons that have no validity?

3. well it is not only a mana dork his role is much wider so you never really want to loose him

What is more :
4. he blocks Goblin Lackey like a champ
5. he wins on its own G1 against reanimator
6. he keeps Nimble Moongoose from attacking and growing
7. he "fixes" yours or opponents life total
8. he protects you from [CARDS]Daze[/CARDS on T2 (yeah I know every mana dork can do that)

dave8
10-11-2012, 06:06 AM
Post editing doesn't work.

9. he prevents Snapcaster Mage from casting for value

tsabo_tavoc
10-11-2012, 06:23 AM
1. Rock plays wasteland.
2. Rock plays aggressively and has a tradition for acceleration (mox diamond)
3. People do not play pernicious deed, and if we do we don't care that our mana dork dies.

Next reasons that have no validity?

Yes, there is a wide spectrum when people speak about the Rock archetype. Eva could as well be classified as Fast Rock.
My point is Deathrite Shaman is a real deal just as yours, or followed by dave8. I would totally replace Mox Diamond by Shaman in Rock builds.
I was just saying, Shaman shines even more in more aggroish builds. Yes, it is better than Dark Ritual when you don't play or play against combo.

KobeBryan
10-11-2012, 01:04 PM
What is very strong with this deck it is its very solid matchup against almost all tier1 decks.
Matchups:
RUG Delver - thanks to Abrupt Decay this matchup is nearly non-loosable unless they draw something like 5-6 Creatures.
Maverick - very poor matchup G1 - If they untap with Mother of Runes you loose to Knight of the Reliquary or big Scavenging Ooze. This matchup turns to very favorable after bord though. One sided wrath Virtue's Ruin and Engineered Plaque naming Human is bonkers. The only card left to deal with is Scavenging Ooze
Storm Combo - I think it is 50/50. We have strong disruption and tempo which in general beats Storm. Nevertheless so they can just draw 3 cards from the top and win.
Reanimator - very favorable - you can't loose it unless they have something like a God hand; G1 if Deathrite Shaman or Liliana of the Veil hits the board they just can't win. G2 is even easier when we add Extirpate
Goblins - yet again favorable matchup - multiple Tarmogoyf shine here. G2 is even easier because of Engineered Plague

I still didn't tested neither against Show and Tell decks (but from my experience as a former Sneak&Show player heavy discard is a problem for those decks) nor against UW Miracles (Bitterblossom should win games here).

Yea this is a great deck to take to a tournament. Too bad i don't own goyfs anymore.

engineered plague kills 3 tier 1 decks, merfolk, maverick, and goblins.

I also haven't tested this deck against miracles, but i don't think its too bad considering we got a great deal of discard, disruption, and maybe bitterblossom.

tianyuan2k4
10-11-2012, 05:00 PM
Here is the list I am working on:

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Grisly Salvage
2 Sinkhole
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Deathrite Shaman: In my test it is a great card but not the cornerstone in this deck. The deck functions fine without it. However, having extra boost in the beginning or using his utility in some situation is pretty nice. I definitely don't want to draw another in any game. So I think two is about right.

Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Nantuko Shade: The best beaters in this archetype.

Dark Ritual: Extra boost for many cards.

Cabal Therapy: should be Thoughtseize, but I could sac Deathrite Shaman to flashback therapy sometimes. Need more testing.

Hymn to Tourach, Snuff Out: The most efficient hand disruption and creature removal.

Abrupt Decay: This deck didn't have any good spot removal for non-creature permanent that Maelstrom Pulse & Pernicious Deed were too slow back then. This is the exact answer we need. Anything cost more than 3cc should be discarded or unable to cast due to our land disruption.

Grisly Salvage: it feels like an instant Demonic Tutor in a sense that whenever I am missing a land drop, or needs extra beater, this card nails it for me most of time. It also feeds my Deathrite Shaman, Tamrogoyf and Tombstalker nicely as well. Being an instant means I could wait and respond to my opponent's move with this or Abrupt Decay during their turn.

Sinkhole: four is too much. I think with 2 Sinkhole + 4 Wasteland is enough to mess opponent's mana base. Remember Grisly Salvage might nail you a wasteland when it's necessary.

Liliana of the Veil: nuff said.

KobeBryan
10-11-2012, 05:10 PM
Here is the list I am working on:

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Grisly Salvage
2 Sinkhole
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Deathrite Shaman: In my test it is a great card but not the cornerstone in this deck. The deck functions fine without it. However, having extra boost in the beginning or using his utility in some situation is pretty nice. I definitely don't want to draw another in any game. So I think two is about right.

Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Nantuko Shade: The best beaters in this archetype.

Dark Ritual: Extra boost for many cards.

Cabal Therapy: should be Thoughtseize, but I could sac Deathrite Shaman to flashback therapy sometimes. Need more testing.

Hymn to Tourach, Snuff Out: The most efficient hand disruption and creature removal.

Abrupt Decay: This deck didn't have any good spot removal for non-creature permanent that Maelstrom Pulse & Pernicious Deed were too slow back then. This is the exact answer we need. Anything cost more than 3cc should be discarded or unable to cast due to our land disruption.

Grisly Salvage: it feels like an instant Demonic Tutor in a sense that whenever I am missing a land drop, or needs extra beater, this card nails it for me most of time. It also feeds my Deathrite Shaman, Tamrogoyf and Tombstalker nicely as well. Being an instant means I could wait and respond to my opponent's move with this or Abrupt Decay during their turn.

Sinkhole: four is too much. I think with 2 Sinkhole + 4 Wasteland is enough to mess opponent's mana base. Remember Grisly Salvage might nail you a wasteland when it's necessary.

Liliana of the Veil: nuff said.


to be honest...bad list.

1. This is an aggro deck. you never want to sac the creature for cabal therapy. Its not like its the gate where you have tokens and a persecutor.

2. 2 sinkholes? the rule of thumb is 4 to see in opening hand, 3 if you want to see it in the game. 2 need to win, but not necessary, and 1 if its tutorable. - we all know sinkholes suck after turn 3. you aint' gonna draw it if there are only 2.

3. liliana, you want bodies to attack. I'm still uncertain whether i want to use liliana, since this deck isn't a control deck.

4. deathrite. the rule of thumb is 4 to see in opening hand, 3 if you want to see it in the game. 2 need to win, but not necessary, and 1 if its tutorable. - . you aint' gonna draw it if there are only 2. You need deathrite out asap to ramp, to kill knights of the requary, to stop reanimator, to do lots of other gy shennagans.

our matchup against dredge and reanimator used to suck, but with 4 deathrites, i think its favorable to us now.

tianyuan2k4
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
to be honest...bad list.

1. This is an aggro deck. you never want to sac the creature for cabal therapy. Its not like its the gate where you have tokens and a persecutor.

2. 2 sinkholes? the rule of thumb is 4 to see in opening hand, 3 if you want to see it in the game. 2 need to win, but not necessary, and 1 if its tutorable. - we all know sinkholes suck after turn 3. you aint' gonna draw it if there are only 2.

3. liliana, you want bodies to attack. I'm still uncertain whether i want to use liliana, since this deck isn't a control deck.

4. deathrite. the rule of thumb is 4 to see in opening hand, 3 if you want to see it in the game. 2 need to win, but not necessary, and 1 if its tutorable. - . you aint' gonna draw it if there are only 2. You need deathrite out asap to ramp, to kill knights of the requary, to stop reanimator, to do lots of other gy shennagans.

our matchup against dredge and reanimator used to suck, but with 4 deathrites, i think its favorable to us now.

Points taken. -2 Liliana +2 Deathrite, -4 Cabal Therapy +4 Thoughtseize, -2 Sinkholes +1 Shade +1 Grisly Salvage. So this is what I will test with:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage

4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Edit: Just test a couple matches. Deathrite Shaman is quite good indeed, especially with more Grisly Salvage. A lot of mana and consistent flows of threats. Very good suggestion. Thanks bro.

Esper3k
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
I've never liked 4 Tombstalkers because they tend to not play well in multiples. I usually find 3 to be enough.

Likewise, I tend to like 5 or 6 1-mana discard spells because it's so important these days to disrupt early and get an idea of what your opponent is going to be doing.

I do think with Deathrite Shaman, we can afford to cut Dark Rituals now since Shaman provides a more consistent mana source while still giving us a little bit of reach.

KobeBryan
10-11-2012, 07:57 PM
I've never liked 4 Tombstalkers because they tend to not play well in multiples. I usually find 3 to be enough.

Likewise, I tend to like 5 or 6 1-mana discard spells because it's so important these days to disrupt early and get an idea of what your opponent is going to be doing.

I do think with Deathrite Shaman, we can afford to cut Dark Rituals now since Shaman provides a more consistent mana source while still giving us a little bit of reach.

Even with the new toys, this deck isn't there yet. You see, you have 4 nantuko and 4 tombstalkers. thats just too much of a mana sink.

for this deck to be competitive, we need a new 1 drop toy. like delver. Right now, i'm using vampire knighthawk and its not doing it...3 mana for 2/3 cannot compete against a 1 mana for 3/2

Esper3k
10-11-2012, 08:11 PM
Yeah I've been messing around with a build that's more controlling. My problem is that I feel that we need another good 2 drop beater that's better than Nantuko to go along with Goyf and Tombstalker.

KobeBryan
10-11-2012, 08:43 PM
Yeah I've been messing around with a build that's more controlling. My problem is that I feel that we need another good 2 drop beater that's better than Nantuko to go along with Goyf and Tombstalker.

if you go control, you will need to play bitterblossoms, jitte, lilianas, and dark confidant.

that would be the main shell, but if we wanna play tempo aggro, thats not going to cut it.

Claymore
10-12-2012, 04:17 PM
Yeah I've been messing around with a build that's more controlling. My problem is that I feel that we need another good 2 drop beater that's better than Nantuko to go along with Goyf and Tombstalker.

Lotleth Troll? Or if you roll with Grisly Salvage and Liliana you can try out, uh, Slitherhead. Maybe.

I'm not a current player of this deck, but have been keeping an eye on the recent uprising of BGx decks to see if I want to branch out from Nic Fit...

Esper3k
10-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Yeah I've been playing with a build with Dark Confidants. Also been testing Bloodghast and Cabal Therapy with Grisly Salvage.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 10:44 AM
.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 02:46 PM
I've never posted here before, but I really like this archetype especially with the new cards Return to Ravnica has made available. The first time I used this deck was in 2008. I played it in a 42 man tournament having never used it before and I placed second. I recently placed first in a Magic League tournament with a list that is very similiar to the deck I am going to post. The deck I used can be seen in the Magic League tournament results.


Lands
4 - Verdant Catacombs
3 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wasteland
4 - Bayou
5 - Swamp

Creatures
4 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Tombstalker
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Death's Shadow

Instants
2 - Snuff Out
1 - Dismember
2 - Go For The Throat

Sorceries
3 - Inquisition of Kozilek
4 - Thoughseize
4 - Hymn to Tourach
4 - Sinkhole
1 - Reanimate

Enchantments
1 - Sylvan Library
2 - Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 - Engineered Plague
3 - Choke
3 - Abrupt Decay
3 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Pithing Needle
1 - Umezawa's Jitte

Although the tournament I won this time had only eleven participants, and had four rounds I won two matches in advance, and at least six in a row afterwards. The deck's worst nightmare so to speak is grislebrand. Once that card is out it would probably be a miracle if you win. I will keep playing this deck, and report my results if they are top three or better. Let me know your thoughts about possible changes and strategies in general.

Why are u sideboarding the best 2CMC removal in the game?

Esper3k
10-23-2012, 03:01 PM
I think Deed might not be so good when almost all your permanents are 2 CMC or less?

Also, maybe consider an Overgrown Tomb or two to shock yourself since you're playing Death's Shadow?

jtos84
10-23-2012, 03:35 PM
Why are u sideboarding the best 2CMC removal in the game?

Abrupt Decay will do nothing for Burn, Show and Tell, or Reanimator. The maindeck removal is sufficient for its purpose. Abrupt Decay is meant to supplement it against Agrro, Counter Balance and various combo strategies. I would hate to just lay out the course of play for every opponent to read, but I would recommend playing the deck and posting how you think it did. With that information a discussion on changes, or why certain cards are played can take place. If I were to change anything I would replace the Reanimate with another Dismember. That is what the original version had. I did not have the Sylvan Library in the tournament. The two or three matches I have used Sylvan Library in have proved to be pretty one sided. It was rediculous to say the least. This deck is also not as straight forward as it may appear. You cannot just lay the cards down and expect too win. I definitley use a few strategies and tricks when I am playing that the cards allow me to do. This deck is also designed with the metagame, and tier decks in mind. There are cards that would technically appear to be more solid, or in more acceptable numbers, but I designed this deck to combat the metagame. I hope everyone playtests this deck and posts feedback. This deck is very fun to play.

Esper3k
10-23-2012, 03:44 PM
I actually think Abrupt Decay is much better than Snuff Out / Dismember against Burn - AD doesn't cost us life and can conceivably hit things like Sulfuric Vortex.

The reason I'd use Snuff Out / Dismember is because they're more tempo generating removal since they effectively cost 0 or 1 mana most of the time you use them.

That being said, I'd probably play AD over GFTT these days.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Abrupt Decay will do nothing for Burn, Show and Tell, or Reanimator. The maindeck removal is sufficient for its purpose. Abrupt Decay is meant to supplement it against Agrro, Counter Balance and various combo strategies. I would hate to just lay out the course of play for every opponent to read, but I would recommend playing the deck and posting how you think it did. With that information a discussion on changes, or why certain cards are played can take place. If I were to change anything I would replace the Reanimate with another Dismember. That is what the original version had. I did not have the Sylvan Library in the tournament. The two or three matches I have used Sylvan Library in have proved to be pretty one sided. It was rediculous to say the least. This deck is also not as straight forward as it may appear. You cannot just lay the cards down and expect too win. I definitley use a few strategies and tricks when I am playing that the cards allow me to do. This deck is also designed with the metagame, and tier decks in mind. There are cards that would technically appear to be more solid, or in more acceptable numbers, but I designed this deck to combat the metagame. I hope everyone playtests this deck and posts feedback. This deck is very fun to play.

Your Go for the throat, dismember and snuff outs also do nothing against burn, show and tell and reanimator.

Against burn, you kill yourself with dismember and snuff out for a goblin guide.

Against show and tell, dismember and snuff outs do nothing against a griselbrand or emmy.

Against reanimator snuff outs and dismember do nothing against griselbrand and a bunch of other good fatties they drop.

Also, i want to know why you are using sinkholes. I know it can be devastating if you chain multiple sinkholes against an opponent, but decks now only need 1-2 lands.

Tormod
10-23-2012, 05:34 PM
Didn't know to start a new thread or to post here:

This is what I have been working on. Working Name is "Oscar the Grouch" green deck that uses the bin.

4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marsh flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wastelands

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging ooze

2 Thought seize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lilianna of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Darkblast

sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
2 Virtues Ruin
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deeds
1 Lilianna of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Choke
3 Pithing Needle

Had success with its initial run finished top 4 at a local event. Went 3-1, then lost in semi's against burn.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Didn't know to start a new thread or to post here:

This is what I have been working on. Working Name is "Oscar the Grouch" green deck that uses the bin.

4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marsh flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wastelands

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging ooze

2 Thought seize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lilianna of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Darkblast

sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
2 Virtues Ruin
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deeds
1 Lilianna of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Choke
3 Pithing Needle

Had success with its initial run finished top 4 at a local event. Went 3-1, then lost in semi's against burn.


Try to find room for grisly salvage.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 05:54 PM
Your Go for the throat, dismember and snuff outs also do nothing against burn, show and tell and reanimator.

Against burn, you kill yourself with dismember and snuff out for a goblin guide.

Against show and tell, dismember and snuff outs do nothing against a griselbrand or emmy.

Against reanimator snuff outs and dismember do nothing against griselbrand and a bunch of other good fatties they drop.

Also, i want to know why you are using sinkholes. I know it can be devastating if you chain multiple sinkholes against an opponent, but decks now only need 1-2 lands.

By those comments I can tell you have never played this deck in those match ups. I know one or two lands used to cut it, but name some decks for use that only need one or two lands.

Esper3k
10-23-2012, 05:57 PM
by those comments i can tell you have never played this deck in those match ups. I know one or two lands used to cut it, but name some decks for use that only need one or two lands.

RUG? Show & Tell combo? Storm combo? Dredge? Goblins / Merfolk / Elves?

Don't get me wrong, I love Sinkhole, but there are a lot of decks out there that function on few lands.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 06:01 PM
I really think you guys should play these matchups before you say its no good. I'm not going to argue over something I know to be true against people who have never even tried it.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 06:26 PM
I really think you guys should play these matchups before you say its no good. I'm not going to argue over something I know to be true against people who have never even tried it.

Wow...those are some serious accusations to talk about Esper and I. We have been on this thread since its inception.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Wow...those are some serious accusations to talk about Esper and I. We have been on this thread since its inception.

Being on the site since its inception has nothing to do with what we were talking about. I don't understand your sentence Either.

You said, "those are some serious accusations to talk about Esper and I". Making accusations is not the same as talking about someone. I havn't spoken about either of you, and what accusations are you saying that I made? You guys are just mentioning decks that I have beaten many times with this deck, so naturally I do not take what you have said too seriously at this point.

As far as sinkhole goes I think this would be a different deck entirely without it. I just said, " why dont you name some decks for us that only need one or two lands", and here is where I am going with that. Normally decks that function on one or two lands focus on land destruction, or have a way of ramping. A deck that also operates on card advantage is just going to compound this advantage by cutting off higher casting cost cards. This deck was also designed to play against burn. I just posted this today, so I know many people havn't tried it, or are not playing it the way I play it. I have had nothing but great results against great decks.

Greenpoe
10-23-2012, 07:01 PM
Didn't know to start a new thread or to post here:

This is what I have been working on. Working Name is "Oscar the Grouch" green deck that uses the bin.

4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marsh flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wastelands

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging ooze

2 Thought seize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lilianna of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Darkblast

sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
2 Virtues Ruin
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deeds
1 Lilianna of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Choke
3 Pithing Needle

Had success with its initial run finished top 4 at a local event. Went 3-1, then lost in semi's against burn.

This list looks extremely solid. A good mix of elements that go for the long game and short game. Nimble Mongoose + Dark Confidant + GSZ looks like a great solid alternative to big old Tombstalker, but the Darkblasts really look like SB cards, but I completely understand that you'd want to keep the board clear to keep swinging with those Mongooses. IMO, I'd cut a Darkblast for the 3rd Liliana, though. And...don't you want the 4th Hymn? IMO Hymn gets better in multiples, not worse. Turn 2 Hymn followed by turn 3 Hymn is pretty much auto-win. Top vs. Grisly Salvage? Top is probably better in your build, though, for a good lategame, but I'd still add back in the 4th Hymn to strengthen the early game.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 07:15 PM
Being on the site since its inception has nothing to do with what we were talking about. I don't understand your sentence Either.

You said, "those are some serious accusations to talk about Esper and I". Making accusations is not the same as talking about someone. I havn't spoken about either of you, and what accusations are you saying that I made? You guys are just mentioning decks that I have beaten many times with this deck, so naturally I do not take what you have said too seriously at this point.

As far as sinkhole goes I think this would be a different deck entirely without it. I just said, " why dont you name some decks for us that only need one or two lands". and here is where I am going with that. Normally decks that function on one or two lands focus on land destruction, or have a way of ramping. A deck that also operates on card advantage is just going to compound this advantage by cutting off higher casting cost cards. This deck was also designed to play against burn. I just posted this today, so I know many people havn't tried it, or are not playing it the way I play it. I have had nothing but great results against great decks.

Now I can say you have never played this deck before. A suicide deck designed to play against burn??? Burn is our worst matchup next to dredge (until deathrite was printed)

jtos84
10-23-2012, 07:21 PM
I think I joined the wrong site. If its possible just take my list down. I'll do it if its possible.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 07:25 PM
I think I joined the wrong site. If its possible just take my list down. I'll do it if its possible.

I dont' think the internet is right for you if you cannot take constructive criticism based on forum posts.

The question was simple...why are you using sinkholes? There really isn't a match out there that sinkhole would be good at. Most tier one decks out there uses 1-2 mana, starting from RUG, maverick tempo, merfolk, goblins. Disrupting someone's mana doesn't really hurt too many decks as well because of all the mana dorks.

You didn't offer anything to support your theory why sinkhole is good. Yet we provided evidence that it isnt. ALl you said, well, if you don't use sinkholes, you haven't played this deck before.

Sinkhole is also a poor card to topdeck after turn 4. So instead of drawing business, you draw a sinkhole. Thats why people are dropping sinkholes.

Also, on the draw, turn 2 sinkhole is not a good play at all since the mana curve have dropped significantly since 2006.

Koby
10-23-2012, 07:31 PM
I think I joined the wrong site. If its possible just take my list down. I'll do it if its possible.

Ignore Avatar of Shadow, he talks in maths and riddles. I hope you continue to contribute to this forum, but definitely take some of the comments with a grain of salt. Definitely don't let user's post count or join date dissuade you from participating in discussion.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Ignore Avatar of Shadow, he talks in maths and riddles. I hope you continue to contribute to this forum, but definitely take some of the comments with a grain of salt. Definitely don't let user's post count or join date dissuade you from participating in discussion.

I'm offering constructive criticism on the deck design.

I really want to know why sinkhole is good in this deck. Many have tested and many have disliked sinkholes in this deck. My question is legitimate. In what matchup is sinkhole good at? I haven't received a response except one where I was attacked by saying I don't playtest the deck.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 07:42 PM
If I get solid criticism in the form of actual games played against said decks, and specific circumstances then I will consider what you are saying. I have answeres for everything you are asking, but I am not going to give this out freely. What you are asking is actually how my deck wins, and why I made it exactly the way I did. Every single card in the deck is at its current number for a specific reason. This deck was thoroughly playtested. Like I said earlier though. You can't just drop these cards. There is a method to the way I made this deck. It looks vulnerable doesn't it? This is how it was meant to be. Now if you play it and ask me something then I will be glad to answer.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 07:44 PM
I have answeres for everything you are asking, but I am not going to give this out freely.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

jtos84
10-23-2012, 07:50 PM
You can put it like this. I'm not going to give you what should be learning from playing the deck. If you can't win with it move to another version. Turn two sinkhole can be good or bad for a number of reasons. To say sinkhole is not good in this deck is like saying this deck is not good. Really though you will find I am not one to argue if there is a way to not argue. If you would give me an example of why something is good or bad(and be specific) I will give a specific answer every time. I am not fond of giving away secrets and details of successful strategies when this teaches people what you are doing. You have to understand that.

Sughayyer
10-23-2012, 08:15 PM
I am usually a Rock player (sometimes I tinker with deadguy ale, bug and bg as well), but I keep a close eye in this thread. I should never enter in such an argument as this one but, the "I won't spoil how my deck works because my opponents might read" fallacy is the most mediocre attitude I can ever conceive about a magic player. That, and not wanting to broaden horizons.
Sorry for this rambling.

Tormod
10-23-2012, 08:16 PM
This list looks extremely solid. A good mix of elements that go for the long game and short game. Nimble Mongoose + Dark Confidant + GSZ looks like a great solid alternative to big old Tombstalker, but the Darkblasts really look like SB cards, but I completely understand that you'd want to keep the board clear to keep swinging with those Mongooses. IMO, I'd cut a Darkblast for the 3rd Liliana, though. And...don't you want the 4th Hymn? IMO Hymn gets better in multiples, not worse. Turn 2 Hymn followed by turn 3 Hymn is pretty much auto-win. Top vs. Grisly Salvage? Top is probably better in your build, though, for a good lategame, but I'd still add back in the 4th Hymn to strengthen the early game.

Thanks for reviewing.

I figured curving lower than traditional eva green and adding the ramp of the shaman would make the deck more aggressive. I have been thinking about the darkblast, and my thoughts are they are not the best card but it does serve an important role. I believe that the deck needs a 1 mana removal spell and darkblast hits many relevant targets, SCM, Bob, mom, noble, clique, thalia, spirit tokens, goblin lackey. Dark Blast also trumps the goyf war. It has the dredge ability which is nice. I'm flexible on that spot and will continue to experiment.

the 4th Hymn is a running debate for me right now, some match ups its a house, other times it feels stuck in the hand. I do like the idea of turn 2 and 3 Hymn.

A couple of things to mention:

-I really like the advantage of bob + shaman, it seems to give a lot of gas to the deck
-I forgot scryb ranger was added to the deck, and does a great job against delver, and allowing the shaman to do 4 life loss a turn, and also dryad arbor tricks.
-Top + GSZ and fetches gives lots of shuffle effects allowing the deck to dig effectively.

KobeBryan
10-23-2012, 08:19 PM
Thanks for reviewing.

I figured curving lower than traditional eva green and adding the ramp of the shaman would make the deck more aggressive. I have been thinking about the darkblast, and my thoughts are they are not the best card but it does serve an important role. I believe that the deck needs a 1 mana removal spell and darkblast hits many relevant targets, SCM, Bob, mom, noble, clique, thalia, spirit tokens, goblin lackey. Dark Blast also trumps the goyf war. It has the dredge ability which is nice. I'm flexible on that spot and will continue to experiment.

the 4th Hymn is a running debate for me right now, some match ups its a house, other times it feels stuck in the hand. I do like the idea of turn 2 and 3 Hymn.

A couple of things to mention:

-I really like the advantage of bob + shaman, it seems to give a lot of gas to the deck
-I forgot scryb ranger was added to the deck, and does a great job against delver, and allowing the shaman to do 4 life loss a turn, and also dryad arbor tricks.
-Top + GSZ and fetches gives lots of shuffle effects allowing the deck to dig effectively.

I like scryb too but you can't take full advantage of its ability without utility guys, ie. mom, knights, and other blahs.

jtos84
10-23-2012, 08:36 PM
I am usually a Rock player (sometimes I tinker with deadguy ale, bug and bg as well), but I keep a close eye in this thread. I should never enter in such an argument as this one but, the "I won't spoil how my deck works because my opponents might read" fallacy is the most mediocre attitude I can ever conceive about a magic player. That, and not wanting to broaden horizons.
Sorry for this rambling.

If you want to know something ask, but I'm not going to tell you something you can figure out by trying the deck. I am the one who made changes to it, and I understand it. As far as not wanting to broaden my horizons I would say that is what is going on with you guys. Try the deck then ask instead of shooting it down. And not wanting to spoil how my deck works. I can take one look at that decklist and tell you what it is made to do. If you don't see that ask me a question about how something works. I am much more likely to answer how does this work out and why, or why is this good with that as opposed to this deck loses to this and that, and this card is bad and that card is bad. On top of that some of those cards are key and original to this archetype. As far as tricks of the trade on what I am doing in certain circumstances like on the draw we can get to that when I am speaking with someone who actually uses this deck. It looks like you want me to do the work for you. My opponent could ask me what I do this for and why, and I would probably actually answer, but noone wants to give information to someone who starts with this is bad, but does not say why. When you ask why is this card being played and it is part of the archetype you may be in the wrong deck.

MirrorMask
10-24-2012, 01:59 AM
@jtos84

Well if you aren't going to talk about your deck list then WHY did you post it? I think Avatar IS right and sinkhole doesn't have a place in this deck right now but if you like it play with it. Your deck- your problem. If you come to a forum NOT wanting to talk about your ideas then why did you come? Do you really think that the rest of us (and especially those better than me as I don't play that much to be honest) are stupid for giving their knowledge freely as you say? Do you think they will analyze decks to you but when its your turn to do it you will just walk away? If that's the case then do everyone a favor and leave. I believe The Source doesn't need people of your kind.

Tormod
10-24-2012, 03:26 AM
I like scryb too but you can't take full advantage of its ability without utility guys, ie. mom, knights, and other blahs.

In this build Scryb is more of a Combat trick. He can flash in to block delver, flash in to untap a goofy. He works with the lone dryad arbor in the deck. I agree that he is better with other utility creatures but I would say he does enough to justify a place in the deck (for now), the deck has only been through one tournament so far finishing top 4 on its maiden untested voyage.

I'm going to have a run at a 4 round tournament tomorrow, I'll report on it.

jtos84
10-24-2012, 04:50 AM
@jtos84

Well if you aren't going to talk about your deck list then WHY did you post it? I think Avatar IS right and sinkhole doesn't have a place in this deck right now but if you like it play with it. Your deck- your problem. If you come to a forum NOT wanting to talk about your ideas then why did you come? Do you really think that the rest of us (and especially those better than me as I don't play that much to be honest) are stupid for giving their knowledge freely as you say? Do you think they will analyze decks to you but when its your turn to do it you will just walk away? If that's the case then do everyone a favor and leave. I believe The Source doesn't need people of your kind.

Pick and idea, and we can talk about it. I just don't spill what I know to the first person who say's my deck is bad, and my cards arn't good. It just seems to be insult after insult here. Most of what has been posted is people trying to get me to verbally prove my deck's worth. I thought thats what tournament results were for?

I'm also a pretty friendly person, and I am actually willing to play these matches out with you over the net. If you decide to play I will answer any question you have.

Esper3k
10-24-2012, 08:40 AM
In this build Scryb is more of a Combat trick. He can flash in to block delver, flash in to untap a goofy. He works with the lone dryad arbor in the deck. I agree that he is better with other utility creatures but I would say he does enough to justify a place in the deck (for now), the deck has only been through one tournament so far finishing top 4 on its maiden untested voyage.

I'm going to have a run at a 4 round tournament tomorrow, I'll report on it.

Yeah your list seems a little more controlling (playing Bob) than the more traditional Tombstalker builds, but does keep some of the aggro elements with Nimble Mongoose. I think the build looks very solid as well and I would also recommend giving Grisly Salvage a spin since it'll grow your 'Goyfs and Mongooses quickly as well as give more food for your Deathrite Shamans.

Do you find that 4x 1 drop hand disruption is enough? With how fast decks are these days, I tend to like 6 or more 1 drop disruption spells.


Pick and idea, and we can talk about it. I just don't spill what I know to the first person who say's my deck is bad, and my cards arn't good. It just seems to be insult after insult here. Most of what has been posted is people trying to get me to verbally prove my deck's worth. I thought thats what tournament results were for?

I'm also a pretty friendly person, and I am actually willing to play these matches out with you over the net. If you decide to play I will answer any question you have.

I think the problem people are having is that you've posted a list and didn't seem very willing to discuss any parts of it other than responding "try the deck". Some of the cards people have questioned (Sinkhole, GFTT) aren't particularly innovative (if you go back through the thread, you'll see older lists with them) and have been shown for most people to be suboptimal these days. You've even made claims about how traditionally bad matchups such as Burn are good while you are playing traditional Suicide spells that help them out (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Dismember) but haven't offered any arguments as to why that claim is true.

Fundamentally, any time anyone posts up a decklist and says it's good, they're going to have to say more than "play the deck" before anyone will take the list seriously.

If you have tournament results, post them up along with a report. Doing well at a large tournament (say a SCG Open) goes a long way towards showing a decklist at least has potential.

ToasTer86
10-24-2012, 10:41 AM
Hey everyone,

EVA Green was the first legacy deck I ever played against.
I came in with my standard / kitchen table deck and was just annihilated.
EVA Green got me interested in legacy and in the meanwhile i played budget decks.

Now I would really like to start playing EVA green but i've been hearing bad thing:
" eva green is a thing of the past "
" eva green doenst win tournaments anymore "
" eva green cant beat maverick / rug / sneak attack " ( the most prominent decks now a days)

Can you guys tell me how EVA Green is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

Thanks

Esper3k
10-24-2012, 11:07 AM
Hey everyone,

EVA Green was the first legacy deck I ever played against.
I came in with my standard / kitchen table deck and was just annihilated.
EVA Green got me interested in legacy and in the meanwhile i played budget decks.

Now I would really like to start playing EVA green but i've been hearing bad thing:
" eva green is a thing of the past "
" eva green doenst win tournaments anymore "
" eva green cant beat maverick / rug / sneak attack " ( the most prominent decks now a days)

Can you guys tell me how EVA Green is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

Thanks

I don't think this is true (Eva is the first Legacy deck I truly fell in love with), but I think these days Eva Green certainly has an uphill battle against a lot of decks.

The problem is that although there are many new and awesome cards getting printed, relatively few of them have really benefited the Suicide archetype. Delver, Thalia, Green Sun's Zenith, etc. all made other decks possible. Really, it's only been in R2R that we've gotten a bunch of new toys (Deathrite Shaman, Grisly Salvage, Abrupt Decay, etc.) and even then, we're still missing a really cheap effective beater to complement Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Over the past couple of years, Tombstalker has also gotten significantly weaker as there is plenty of removal out there that can deal with him (Path to Exile, Go for the Throat, Dismember, etc.) coupled with Snapcaster Mages (flashing back StP) which makes it a real problem for the traditional "disrupt you then kill you with a single big threat" strategy.

Greenpoe
10-24-2012, 11:42 AM
Over the past couple of years, Tombstalker has also gotten significantly weaker as there is plenty of removal out there that can deal with him (Path to Exile, Go for the Throat, Dismember, etc.) coupled with Snapcaster Mages (flashing back StP) which makes it a real problem for the traditional "disrupt you then kill you with a single big threat" strategy.

This is why I think its important to run 2-4 4cc cards in Eva.10-12 big threats (with Goyf, Stalker) really helps the deck especially now that you can get that extra mana from a Deathrite Shaman (or Grisly Salvage at times) and Dark Ritual, too. The problem with Gatekeeper and Nighthawk, although they're fantastic, is that they have only 2 power, and the difference between 2 power and 3 power (or more) is pretty huge, hence why no one runs Aven Mindcensor but Vendilion Clique is amazing. There's a million decent options for 4-drops - I prefer Obliterator for a number of reasons, but there's also Lashwrithe, Abyssal Persecutor, Desecration Demon, Thrun and possibly even Natural Order (NO->Gaea's Revenge?). But when running this deck, there's always the implicit restraint of, "Wouldn't it just be better to play (BGw) Rock (and get KotR)?" Depending on the build, that can be a difficult question to answer. For anyone who's seriously interested in investing in this deck, I would say to keep the Rock in mind as an option - manabase is more expensive, but you get KotR as the super massive beater.

Esper3k
10-24-2012, 11:54 AM
This is why I think its important to run 2-4 4cc cards in Eva.10-12 big threats (with Goyf, Stalker) really helps the deck especially now that you can get that extra mana from a Deathrite Shaman (or Grisly Salvage at times) and Dark Ritual, too. The problem with Gatekeeper and Nighthawk, although they're fantastic, is that they have only 2 power, and the difference between 2 power and 3 power (or more) is pretty huge, hence why no one runs Aven Mindcensor but Vendilion Clique is amazing. There's a million decent options for 4-drops - I prefer Obliterator for a number of reasons, but there's also Lashwrithe, Abyssal Persecutor, Desecration Demon, Thrun and possibly even Natural Order (NO->Gaea's Revenge?). But when running this deck, there's always the implicit restraint of, "Wouldn't it just be better to play (BGw) Rock (and get KotR)?" Depending on the build, that can be a difficult question to answer. For anyone who's seriously interested in investing in this deck, I would say to keep the Rock in mind as an option - manabase is more expensive, but you get KotR as the super massive beater.

Yeah but then we run into the issue of slowing the deck down / having to run more lands to support our 3-4 CC threats, which since we're not playing blue, hurts our mid-late game as we can't really control our draws (sucks to draw lands when you need threats!).

As the deck slows down, the question of whether one should just play BUG or BGw is also very relevant as those decks get to play more powerful options available to playing 3 colors.

Zilla
10-24-2012, 12:22 PM
You can put it like this. I'm not going to give you what should be learning from playing the deck. If you can't win with it move to another version. Turn two sinkhole can be good or bad for a number of reasons. To say sinkhole is not good in this deck is like saying this deck is not good. Really though you will find I am not one to argue if there is a way to not argue. If you would give me an example of why something is good or bad(and be specific) I will give a specific answer every time. I am not fond of giving away secrets and details of successful strategies when this teaches people what you are doing. You have to understand that.
Then don't fucking talk about it. Seriously, if you're not willing to discuss your deck and explain your choices in depth, then your contribution to this discussion is worse than meaningless.

Greenpoe
10-24-2012, 12:49 PM
Yeah but then we run into the issue of slowing the deck down / having to run more lands to support our 3-4 CC threats, which since we're not playing blue, hurts our mid-late game as we can't really control our draws (sucks to draw lands when you need threats!).

I'm talking exclusively about Dark Ritual builds. With 22 lands, 4 Deathrite Shamans, 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Dark Ritual, you've got a lot of really crappy topdecks. Second, 4cc threats are the mid-game. Literally, with Deathrite Shaman and Dark Ritual, half the deck is mana! You will have no problem dropping a 4-drop on turn 4, if not turn 3 or even turn 2. The fact that this deck has a house of an early game. The struggle comes from the mid/late game, OR when they kill and counter your real threats (Stalker/Goyf) and just block the other stuff or apply pressure of their own. You don't have to run more lands for a couple of 4 drops, 20-22 lands + the other stuff will certainly be plenty.

Esper3k
10-24-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm talking exclusively about Dark Ritual builds. With 22 lands, 4 Deathrite Shamans, 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Dark Ritual, you've got a lot of really crappy topdecks. Second, 4cc threats are the mid-game. Literally, with Deathrite Shaman and Dark Ritual, half the deck is mana! You will have no problem dropping a 4-drop on turn 4, if not turn 3 or even turn 2. The fact that this deck has a house of an early game. The struggle comes from the mid/late game, OR when they kill and counter your real threats (Stalker/Goyf) and just block the other stuff or apply pressure of their own. You don't have to run more lands for a couple of 4 drops, 20-22 lands + the other stuff will certainly be plenty.

Fundamentally though, the problem still with running 4 drops in Eva is that they're still vulnerable to getting 2 for 1'd through countermagic or removal (ie, we Ritual into something).

The other problem with holding Rituals to cast 4 drops is then you're not accelerating into your turns where you get to play a disruption spell + a threat.

I haven't really been testing Deathrite Shaman, but it looks good to me for the slower Dark Confidant builds. The problem I have with Deathrite Shaman in the Tombstalker builds is:

1) The aggressive builds want to be playing a disruption spell on T1 or Ritualing into disruption + threat.
2) Shaman doesn't play very well with Tombstalker since you may be forced to eat your own yard.

Asthereal
10-24-2012, 01:11 PM
Have you guys ever tried Skinshifter as additional beater?
4/4 is a significant body, and he requires less mana to be big than Shade.
If you want you can even Zenith into him. Seems an ok option.

jtos84
10-24-2012, 01:49 PM
Then don't fucking talk about it. Seriously, if you're not willing to discuss your deck and explain your choices in depth, then your contribution to this discussion is worse than meaningless.

Winning an open would mean a deck is already good enough. I have a streak of somewhere in the vacinity of 20-1 going. When I do something like that against decks that regularly top 8 I figure I may have a good deck. I am willing to discuss my deck, I was just having a little trouble taking criticism from people who look at the list and judge it before playing it. I'll see what I can do to answer what I think was asked. Just ask if I didn't cover something.

Sinkhole - I chose sinkhole because I noticed there were just enough basic lands being played to evade stifle. The deck only runs four bayous and when an opponent knows you have have green in a black deck they normally want to destroy the green lands to avoid tarmogoyf. It is a good srategy to bait an opponent into a land kill battle by letting them have a bayou or two. You can follow up with your own wasteland or a sinkhole. With Deathrite shaman you will probably come out ahead in this situation. By putting so many lands in the graveyard deathrite shaman can start helping you cast spells much easier.

Deathrite Shaman - This card proved to be extremely versatile and combats many decks as well as reenforces the sinkhole wasteland strategy. He can keep delver from reaching threshold while being able to block nimble mongoose, shrink goyf, and lower the opponents life total. You also gain life.
Against burn he works well because he can either lower their life total, create mana, or possibly gain you life. He can also remove a vital card from a graveyard against many different decks.

Death's Shadow - Burn is a very good strategy and I was looking for a new deck to play so I decided to start working with Evagreen again. I thought something was missing, and I had been looking for a deck to use this card in. I thought his ability to become huge in a bad situation could help in tough match ups, or I could use him to my advantage againt burn. Burn is not particulary strong after you have made them discard so many cards. By the time you are 12 life they have to either waste a spell on it, or slowly grow him for your benefit.

Tombstalker - I knew this card had to be good somewhere in legacy still. It is to good not to see much play. Deathrite shaman allows you to cast him when you don't even have lands in play. After playing quite a bit I knew that creatures with flying were not present for the most part aside from vendillion clique and delver, and Tombstalker is bigger.

Snuff out - Free removal is always good. You can kill a 2/2, or a delver to avoid taking a lot damage at the cost of four life.

Dismember - I did not want to run into black creatures I could not kill, so I added this card. You get more of an option whether or not to pay life.

Go for the throat - I considered maelstrom pulse for this slot, but I know how difficult the goblins or merfolk match can be. Go for the throat is only two mana, and I can hit black with it. Normally I only ran four removal spells, but I thought six would be better because I can keep clearing their side of the board and attacking. When considering maelstrom pulse I thought about what I would need to kill with it. Tarmogoyf was the first card to come to mind, and I use it.

I run a lot of discard becuase many decks are relying on certain cards to gain an early advantge. If you take that advantage away, and destroy lands their strategy is watered down. Many decks then rely on spells or creatures, and there is enough removal for both.

Pernicious Deed - The only reason I use this card is for tokens. It wins games by clearing the board, but I chose it for tokens, and it makes goyf larger.

Abrupt Decay - I use this card in the s/b because it fills the same role as krosan grip for me. Many combos are using cards that have low mana costs. It is a good card to use against creature strategies also. I prefer it in the s/b because there are enough decks that do not run lower casting cost threats to make it essential in the main. The main deck removal also works well with deaths shadow.

You can avoid a lot of trouble by keeping daze in mind. Don't cast into it unkowingly, but when you do just force them to cast it so you have a better chance of successfully casting a creature, or just remember to keep a land open.

Engineered plague - Obviously this is for tribal decks. You can also name wizard and get vendillion clique and snapcaster mage.

If you wonder why I use certain cards, or have any questions just ask. I almost forgot. In the tournament I beat monored burn, rug delver, and a rug delver stiflenaught list. I have beaten goblins, show and tell, merfolk, miracles, esper stoneblade, and pretty much any deck that sees play in legacy. The toughest matches had been show and tell and reanimator, but I added more tormod's crypt and surgical extractions. I took the chokes out of the s/b. Another reason I made so many changes to the deck was because dark ritual was obviously holding it back. Dark ritual was used to feed nantuko shade among other things. A two card combo that was not that strong was easily changed. Deaths shadow makes up for the damage that nantuko would have dealt, and deathrite shaman fills the role of dark ritual. Deaths shadow is a massive one drop in many circumstances. It is also good to play him on 12 life, but this is situational.

Greenpoe
10-24-2012, 01:57 PM
Fundamentally though, the problem still with running 4 drops in Eva is that they're still vulnerable to getting 2 for 1'd through countermagic or removal (ie, we Ritual into something).

The other problem with holding Rituals to cast 4 drops is then you're not accelerating into your turns where you get to play a disruption spell + a threat.

I haven't really been testing Deathrite Shaman, but it looks good to me for the slower Dark Confidant builds. The problem I have with Deathrite Shaman in the Tombstalker builds is:

1) The aggressive builds want to be playing a disruption spell on T1 or Ritualing into disruption + threat.
2) Shaman doesn't play very well with Tombstalker since you may be forced to eat your own yard.

The point is that Rituals+cheap spells = dead Rituals once you empty your hand. I'm not saying it's ideal to go Swamp, Thoughtseize, Swamp, Ritual, 4-drop, but it's definitely an option if your hand warrants it. It's more ideal, though, to drop them in the midgame, by which point you will almost always have either: 4 lands, 3 lands and a Shaman, or 2+ lands and a Ritual.

The thing is, you really can't think of things in the ideal world. You only have 4 1cc discard spells and only 4 Rituals, and so you won't always have one. Sometimes you'll have a hand full of 3-drops. Sometimes you'll have a bunch of discard and no threats. (This is obviously the problem when you have no blue.) IMO Shaman is good because he'll smooth out these hands. High cc cards? Play Shaman, play a 3-drop on turn 2. Lots of discard and no (real) threats? Play your discard first, then play Shaman and pick away at their life total by exiling them at each EOT. Anyway, I like my decks to have at least 11 one-drops so as to not waste first turn 1 tempo.

KobeBryan
10-24-2012, 02:03 PM
Hey everyone,

EVA Green was the first legacy deck I ever played against.
I came in with my standard / kitchen table deck and was just annihilated.
EVA Green got me interested in legacy and in the meanwhile i played budget decks.

Now I would really like to start playing EVA green but i've been hearing bad thing:
" eva green is a thing of the past "
" eva green doenst win tournaments anymore "
" eva green cant beat maverick / rug / sneak attack " ( the most prominent decks now a days)

Can you guys tell me how EVA Green is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

Thanks

If you really want to invest money in a deck, I dont' think you should invest it into eva green just yet. This card is missing 1 creature. a 1-2 mana creature.

So far, hypnotic specter has been replaced by vampire nighthawk, which isn't good anyways. If blue has a 3/2 flyer for 1, why are we playing a 2/3 flyer for 3...

nantuko shade is not good - there is really no card to replace this card with. I've tested with gatekeeper, its good, but not enough.

as for Esper and greenpoes discussion, After you incorporated deathrite, you guys still play dark ritual? I replaced my rituals with deathrite. I find it to be too much mana and too horrible of a topdeck. Its true deathrite eats away your tombstalkers ability, but with grisly salvage, it more than makes up for this.

Then i replaced sinkhole with grisly salvage, I love sinkholes, but its not the right call right now with so many decks being able to go off with 1 land. Sure it can devastate some decks, but drawing it turn 4 sucks.


Have you guys ever tried Skinshifter as additional beater?
4/4 is a significant body, and he requires less mana to be big than Shade.
If you want you can even Zenith into him. Seems an ok option.


I try not to use zenith in this deck. Not really enough lands to play zenith effectively.

Esper3k
10-24-2012, 02:10 PM
The point is that Rituals+cheap spells = dead Rituals once you empty your hand. I'm not saying it's ideal to go Swamp, Thoughtseize, Swamp, Ritual, 4-drop, but it's definitely an option if your hand warrants it. It's more ideal, though, to drop them in the midgame, by which point you will almost always have either: 4 lands, 3 lands and a Shaman, or 2+ lands and a Ritual.

The thing is, you really can't think of things in the ideal world. You only have 4 1cc discard spells and only 4 Rituals, and so you won't always have one. Sometimes you'll have a hand full of 3-drops. Sometimes you'll have a bunch of discard and no threats. (This is obviously the problem when you have no blue.) IMO Shaman is good because he'll smooth out these hands. High cc cards? Play Shaman, play a 3-drop on turn 2. Lots of discard and no (real) threats? Play your discard first, then play Shaman and pick away at their life total by exiling them at each EOT. Anyway, I like my decks to have at least 11 one-drops so as to not waste first turn 1 tempo.

I think we agree for the most part on points - I don't disagree that Eva has ever lacked for the potential for powerful early plays (that's why we play it, right?). For me, these days, it's the lack of consistency that eventually hurts the deck too much for me.

Re: Shaman - Using it to exile your discard spells to eat away at their life total is certainly the correct way to use it, but I'm just not certain it's a good fit for Eva (ie, eating slowly at your opponent's life hasn't generally been Eva Green's game plan for winning). Also, while you're eating away at your yard, you're also weakening Tarmogoyf or your potential to cast Tombstalkers.

Again, this isn't something I've really focused my testing on these days, but I can see Shaman being played in the slower builds. It just doesn't seem like a great fit in the super aggro builds to me.

Greenpoe
10-24-2012, 06:29 PM
@Avatar of Shadow, I wouldn't remove Dark Ritual (even with Shaman), or at least, if you cut Rituals and Gatekeepers, then why even play a two color deck? IMO, if you have neither, then you have little reason not to splash a third color (white) and the deck just becomes better at that point (Stoneforge, KotR, etc). Sadly, there's nothing like Back to Basics or Blood Moon in for black. There's Contamination and some other random 4-mana card that makes everything tap for B, but neither are playable - so being B-color-intensive (Ritual/Gatekeeper/Lashwrithe type cards) is a good excuse not to play 3 colors.

KobeBryan
10-24-2012, 06:38 PM
@Avatar of Shadow, I wouldn't remove Dark Ritual (even with Shaman), or at least, if you cut Rituals and Gatekeepers, then why even play a two color deck? IMO, if you have neither, then you have little reason not to splash a third color (white) and the deck just becomes better at that point (Stoneforge, KotR, etc). Sadly, there's nothing like Back to Basics or Blood Moon in for black. There's Contamination and some other random 4-mana card that makes everything tap for B, but neither are playable - so being B-color-intensive (Ritual/Gatekeeper/Lashwrithe type cards) is a good excuse not to play 3 colors.

I understand...but I hate going into using 4 CMC. Thats why I never liked obliterator in the deck. Never tested and I probably never will. I just think for a 4CMC, it better beat a jace.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 11:14 AM
@jtos84

Well if you aren't going to talk about your deck list then WHY did you post it? I think Avatar IS right and sinkhole doesn't have a place in this deck right now but if you like it play with it. Your deck- your problem. If you come to a forum NOT wanting to talk about your ideas then why did you come? Do you really think that the rest of us (and especially those better than me as I don't play that much to be honest) are stupid for giving their knowledge freely as you say? Do you think they will analyze decks to you but when its your turn to do it you will just walk away? If that's the case then do everyone a favor and leave. I believe The Source doesn't need people of your kind.

Those are some strong comments. It may be more constructive to ask a plain question rather than immediatly attempt to discredit a person or deck. If a simple question was asked from the begining it would have gotten a straight forward answer. I can tell you right now anytime I receive feedback like that I will not take it seriously. Few people respond with an optimistic attitude when discussions are handled like that. Ask me a question anytime, and I will answer.

Now to answer a couple more questions that were asked. I was playing my rug delver list this morning, and to my suprise I ran into someone playing what looked like my evagreen list. They were doing well as was I, and then abrupt decay was cast on my tarmogoyf in game one. The player ended up casting three death's shadows that ended up being 12/12. The only problem was that I ended up winning because instead of running dismember the player used abrupt decay and slowed their own plays down. I would have lost if dismember was played instead. The player also opted to not run sinkhole. This may or may not be good. I just know I prefer to use it. I think abrupt decay could possibly replace sinkhole if someone wanted to play it that way. I won game two because I had enough lands to cast tarmogoyf, delver, and nimble mongoose in one turn. I also noticed that no tombstalkers were cast. This exact situation was considered while choosing to use sinkhole. If their lands are kept to a minimum they are rarely in a position to do what I did.

Esper3k
10-25-2012, 11:50 AM
From my experience, these days Sinkhole is just too slow, especially if you're on the draw. Against a deck like RUG, which only needs 2 lands to function, spending 2 mana and a card to trade for their land can just be too slow (not to mention getting Sorcery into the yard to grow their Goyfs). Daze also makes Sinkhole a sad sad panda.

IMO, the majority of RUG wins come from when they drop 1-2 threats while holding up countermagic / removal to keep their opponent off balance long enough for the threats to win. I think it's usually pretty rare when RUG gets up to 4 mana and then drops 3 creatures in a turn. Usually they should've dropped a threat or two earlier already to ride countermagic to victory.

I think Abrupt Decay is actually pretty amazing against RUG because it completely negates their "play single dude, protect with countermagic" plan (other than against Mongoose). While being able to lower life in the Death's Shadow situation would've been nice, having 3 of them is extremely rare for a deck, especially one that doesn't run Brainstorm or any form of library manipulation.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 12:46 PM
From my experience, these days Sinkhole is just too slow, especially if you're on the draw. Against a deck like RUG, which only needs 2 lands to function, spending 2 mana and a card to trade for their land can just be too slow (not to mention getting Sorcery into the yard to grow their Goyfs). Daze also makes Sinkhole a sad sad panda.

IMO, the majority of RUG wins come from when they drop 1-2 threats while holding up countermagic / removal to keep their opponent off balance long enough for the threats to win. I think it's usually pretty rare when RUG gets up to 4 mana and then drops 3 creatures in a turn. Usually they should've dropped a threat or two earlier already to ride countermagic to victory.

I think Abrupt Decay is actually pretty amazing against RUG because it completely negates their "play single dude, protect with countermagic" plan (other than against Mongoose). While being able to lower life in the Death's Shadow situation would've been nice, having 3 of them is extremely rare for a deck, especially one that doesn't run Brainstorm or any form of library manipulation.

When they daze they return an island which in effect was like losing a land. This gives you a chance to gain board advantage. If you destroy the land they lay back down this is definitley not going to be to their benefit. Sinkhole is sometimes s/b out in the place of abrupt decay. The engineered explosives in the s/b is an excellent card to use against rug delver also. I am suprised so many people are against using sinkhole in legacy especially in a deck that has used it for a long time. I personally love it. You should exepriment with the card and without it. One more key point to this deck is being able to judge if you should take life early to remove a creature. You will benefit from making the right call on their ability to do a lot of quick damage.

KobeBryan
10-25-2012, 12:57 PM
When they daze they return an island which in effect was like losing a land. This gives you a chance to gain board advantage. If you destroy the land they lay back down this is definitley not going to be to their benefit. Sinkhole is sometimes s/b out in the place of abrupt decay. The engineered explosives in the s/b is an excellent card to use against rug delver also. I am suprised so many people are against using sinkhole in legacy especially in a deck that has used it for a long time. I personally love it. You should exepriment with the card and without it. One more key point to this deck is being able to judge if you should take life early to remove a creature. You will benefit from making the right call on their ability to do a lot of quick damage.

Why EE when you can use pernicious deed? Pernicious deed usually is a turn faster and covers more ground.

Esper3k
10-25-2012, 01:04 PM
When they daze they return an island which in effect was like losing a land. This gives you a chance to gain board advantage. If you destroy the land they lay back down this is definitley not going to be to their benefit. Sinkhole is sometimes s/b out in the place of abrupt decay. The engineered explosives in the s/b is an excellent card to use against rug delver also. I am suprised so many people are against using sinkhole in legacy especially in a deck that has used it for a long time. I personally love it. You should exepriment with the card and without it. One more key point to this deck is being able to judge if you should take life early to remove a creature. You will benefit from making the right call on their ability to do a lot of quick damage.

If they Daze your Sinkhole, they've protected their land. If they have Daze and let your Sinkhole resolve, then that means they probably have more land and your Sinkhole loses its effectiveness.

Dazing normally is not the same as losing a land - it just sets you back a land drop, which has a negligible impact when your deck is all 1-2 drops and free countermagic.

EE is fine, but I don't think it's very good in what is fundamentally a 2 color deck (yes, I understand Deathrite Shaman can get you more colors, but you can't rely on always having one). The list you posted doesn't run EE either.

Usually yes, it's worth paying life to kill a T1 Delver. I don't think anyone is disputing that.


Why EE when you can use pernicious deed? Pernicious deed usually is a turn faster and covers more ground.

Deed is really good, but for 0-1 drops, it's actually slower than EE (EE @ 1 costs you 3 total mana, whereas Deed costs you 4 total mana).

I'm also not certain I like the Deeds very much in the list Jtos84 posted since his list runs a lot more 1 drop creatures than normal (Deathrite Shamans + Death's Shadow).

Zirath
10-25-2012, 02:25 PM
When they daze they return an island which in effect was like losing a land. This gives you a chance to gain board advantage. If you destroy the land they lay back down this is definitley not going to be to their benefit. Sinkhole is sometimes s/b out in the place of abrupt decay. The engineered explosives in the s/b is an excellent card to use against rug delver also. I am suprised so many people are against using sinkhole in legacy especially in a deck that has used it for a long time. I personally love it. You should exepriment with the card and without it. One more key point to this deck is being able to judge if you should take life early to remove a creature. You will benefit from making the right call on their ability to do a lot of quick damage.

The problem with Sinkhole is the issue with Hymn to Tourach: it provides a large tempo swing but it is incredibly narrow and easy to avoid atm. This is the result of Team America's Hymn heavy plan that caused people to play more cheap disruption (Stoneblade/RUG) and increase their threat density (Maverick/Goblins).

Having played a few games with your list, the Sinkholes seem fine but they still have the traditional "bad top deck" problem. Though I supposed that is not really possible to fix in a non-blue deck without severely screwing up your plan.

I did notice that Death's Shadow was underwhelming in practice.

KobeBryan
10-25-2012, 02:51 PM
The problem with Sinkhole is the issue with Hymn to Tourach: it provides a large tempo swing but it is incredibly narrow and easy to avoid atm. This is the result of Team America's Hymn heavy plan that caused people to play more cheap disruption (Stoneblade/RUG) and increase their threat density (Maverick/Goblins).

Having played a few games with your list, the Sinkholes seem fine but they still have the traditional "bad top deck" problem. Though I supposed that is not really possible to fix in a non-blue deck without severely screwing up your plan.

I did notice that Death's Shadow was underwhelming in practice.

Of course death's shadow is underwhelming..i don't even need to playtest it to see it.

This is a tempo deck, the card doesn't work until you are at least under 10 life. You have 4 in your hand, chances are you will get 1 in your opening hand.

The fundamentals of eva green is to dump your opening hand as fast as possible...then seeing cards you cannot play slows your game plan. This is the same reason you shouldn't run 4 tombstalkers.

Regarding sinkhole...even though this has been discussed to a dead topic. When its on, it can win you the game. But when you get it late via topdecking, you will most likely lose the matchup.

This deck already has so many poor topdecking, adding another 4 by sinkhole isn't a good idea. Thats why I've replaced it with grisley salvage.

Overall, this deck is still missing a good 1-2 CMC beater to go along with goyfs and tombstalkers.

Qweerios
10-25-2012, 03:26 PM
Hi, I haven't posted in this forum for a while so I'll just say that Eva and Vesper green were amongst my first Legacy decks.

I think that the advent of RtR made Eva/Vesper Green reliable again with certain adjustments. The classic strategy of disrupt ASAP + Threat is no more in today's meta (except for RUG because counterspells, unlike discard, don't cost mana in this format). Eva Green had its prime when dedicated control and combo decks reigned supreme. Now with decks like Maverick, Rock, RUG, and the recent 12-posts, Nic Fit, etc. the "all-in" strategy of traditional Eva Green falls flat on its face because the "suicide" (AKA: Dark Ritual) power plays are too easily offset by conventional answers (removal, counterspells). I think the Legacy meta is in a much more "fair" state whereas if you want to win a match via the board state, you have to play the card exchange/card advantage game. With that being said, tempo strategies certainly aren't bad, it's just that building a viable counterspell-free tempo deck has more narrow limitations than what is traditionaly established. Here is my Eva Green list:


Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells (20)
2 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Grisly Salvage

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flat
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
1 Forest


I believe Deathrite and AD are automatic playset inclusions because they have such a wide application across so many matchups. Cards like Bob and Hymn are central to a strategy that wants to capitalize on favorable card exchanges and generate enough card advantage to negate your opponent's recovery. I think that building a mana curve that is high in quality 1-2 CMC cards is key to abusing Deathrite and being able to apply pressure on your opponent at all times.

Mongoose is my beater of choice until they print something else. He may not be the fastest clock but he is on-curve with a priceless ability and decent synergy.

Ooze is probably one of the strongest and most impactful creatures on the format right now. While Deathrites do consist of GY hate, they are often not enough.

Darkblast is my 1CMC removal card of choice because it is relevant in nearly every aggro scenario, it is accessible via Salvage, it dredges for Threshold/Deathrite.

The flex slots are pretty much Grisly Salvage, Darkblast, and Scavenging Ooze that I alternate with Ghastly Demise, Maelstrom Pulse, and Pernicious Deed.

As for Top, well there is no reasons not to play it. You can't really use consistency arguments against that card and while it costs mana to spin, well guess what, games don't always go according to plan and, believe it or not, people do end up having extra mana at some point in a game... that's when having a Top grants you a win.

Esper3k
10-25-2012, 03:41 PM
I like the list!

Instead of Top, have you considered Sylvan Library? Given that Eva tends to play a more aggressive role, paying life for cards (Greatness at any cost, right?) has typically been amazing for me.

I like the concept of Grisly Salvage + Mongoose since it fills our yard plus gets us a dude (usually).

One thing I want to try once I get more time to sit down and playtest some more is to try Bloodghast + Cabal Therapy + Grisly Demise. Hell, maybe I'll throw some Bitterblossoms in there for some Tribal Enchantments to grow 'Goyf :)

jtos84
10-25-2012, 07:01 PM
Why EE when you can use pernicious deed? Pernicious deed usually is a turn faster and covers more ground.

A lot of the time you can cast ee while the deth's shadow's are still in your hand. ee should be faster at one mana, and two to activate. It seems like you have that backwards. Pernicious deed is in the maindeck.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 07:04 PM
If they Daze your Sinkhole, they've protected their land. If they have Daze and let your Sinkhole resolve, then that means they probably have more land and your Sinkhole loses its effectiveness.

Dazing normally is not the same as losing a land - it just sets you back a land drop, which has a negligible impact when your deck is all 1-2 drops and free countermagic.

EE is fine, but I don't think it's very good in what is fundamentally a 2 color deck (yes, I understand Deathrite Shaman can get you more colors, but you can't rely on always having one). The list you posted doesn't run EE either.

Usually yes, it's worth paying life to kill a T1 Delver. I don't think anyone is disputing that.



Deed is really good, but for 0-1 drops, it's actually slower than EE (EE @ 1 costs you 3 total mana, whereas Deed costs you 4 total mana).

I'm also not certain I like the Deeds very much in the list Jtos84 posted since his list runs a lot more 1 drop creatures than normal (Deathrite Shamans + Death's Shadow).

I would just refer you to what I wrote the in other post about not playing into daze unknowlingly.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 07:06 PM
The problem with Sinkhole is the issue with Hymn to Tourach: it provides a large tempo swing but it is incredibly narrow and easy to avoid atm. This is the result of Team America's Hymn heavy plan that caused people to play more cheap disruption (Stoneblade/RUG) and increase their threat density (Maverick/Goblins).

Having played a few games with your list, the Sinkholes seem fine but they still have the traditional "bad top deck" problem. Though I supposed that is not really possible to fix in a non-blue deck without severely screwing up your plan.

I did notice that Death's Shadow was underwhelming in practice.

I'm not sure what to tell you I have the opposite results. What decks did you play against and were you playing my exact list?

jtos84
10-25-2012, 07:08 PM
Of course death's shadow is underwhelming..i don't even need to playtest it to see it.

This is a tempo deck, the card doesn't work until you are at least under 10 life. You have 4 in your hand, chances are you will get 1 in your opening hand.

The fundamentals of eva green is to dump your opening hand as fast as possible...then seeing cards you cannot play slows your game plan. This is the same reason you shouldn't run 4 tombstalkers.

Regarding sinkhole...even though this has been discussed to a dead topic. When its on, it can win you the game. But when you get it late via topdecking, you will most likely lose the matchup.

This deck already has so many poor topdecking, adding another 4 by sinkhole isn't a good idea. Thats why I've replaced it with grisley salvage.

Overall, this deck is still missing a good 1-2 CMC beater to go along with goyfs and tombstalkers.

Dumping your hand as fast as possible seems like a poor strategy. Sinkhole late can be good because you can then toss it to the shaman. Death's shadow seems like an overwhelming card to me. Someone else said something about hymn to tourach not being good. Let me get this straight. People think hymn to tourach, sinkhole, and four tombstalkers are not good, and that death's shadow is an underwhelming card. I'm not sure we play the same archetype.

Zirath
10-25-2012, 07:16 PM
I'm not sure what to tell you I have the opposite results. What decks did you play against and were you playing my exact list?

I used your list from the magic-league event.

I played against a few random things, RUG, Maverick, Goblins. Kind of a partial smattering.

Sinkhole was good on turn 2-3 and I think it's fine in this particular list but I would not want it against an aggro start. However, I don't think I'd want to replace it with anything. I think that Sinkhole is bad when paired with Dark Confidant and other slow cards, which is something you have removed from your list.

The issue with Death's Shadow is that it most effective when you are in control. I know this because I used to play Suicide Pox and the same situation came up consistently. Shadow consistently died or I died to burn. It's more or less the nature of the beast. Almost all the heavy lifting got done by Goyf and Stalker. I'm sure it shines in other match ups, particularly against creature and removal light decks.

Deathrite Shaman was incredible however.

Why did you cut Night's Whisper? It actually functioned very well in the deck. It was never a bad card.

How much better is Deed than EE in game 1? There were a few times I really wished I had EE instead of Deed because it caused me to lose my Shadow.

Otherwise, the list seems alright. All the cards were fine except for Shadow. I can imagine him being good but there's a few decks where he just won't be good enough.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 07:34 PM
I used your list from the magic-league event.

I played against a few random things, RUG, Maverick, Goblins. Kind of a partial smattering.

Sinkhole was good on turn 2-3 and I think it's fine in this particular list but I would not want it against an aggro start. However, I don't think I'd want to replace it with anything. I think that Sinkhole is bad when paired with Dark Confidant and other slow cards, which is something you have removed from your list.

The issue with Death's Shadow is that it most effective when you are in control. I know this because I used to play Suicide Pox and the same situation came up consistently. Shadow consistently died or I died to burn. It's more or less the nature of the beast. Almost all the heavy lifting got done by Goyf and Stalker. I'm sure it shines in other match ups, particularly against creature and removal light decks.

Deathrite Shaman was incredible however.

Why did you cut Night's Whisper? It actually functioned very well in the deck. It was never a bad card.

How much better is Deed than EE in game 1? There were a few times I really wished I had EE instead of Deed because it caused me to lose my Shadow.

Otherwise, the list seems alright. All the cards were fine except for Shadow. I can imagine him being good but there's a few decks where he just won't be good enough.

I just don't see it this way. Death's shadow is supposed to be good when you are not in control. An example could be when you are losing on points. I cut the nights whisper although it does win games because sylvan library can essentiall do the same thing, but every turn. Nights wisper is definitley good in the deck. I also thought ee would be a better choice, but deed can win games you would have lost. Remember the deed is essentially for token decks. I would reomend to keep praticing. I had mixed results with my the version I used before this versin, but once I got to this I just kept winning. You should easily have enough discard to ruin burns plan, I am not sure where you are going wrong here, or what version of burn you are playing against. There is even a jitte in the s/b. If you want you can play me in magic workstation, and we can see what is going on.

KobeBryan
10-25-2012, 08:26 PM
Dumping your hand as fast as possible seems like a poor strategy. Sinkhole late can be good because you can then toss it to the shaman. Death's shadow seems like an overwhelming card to me. Someone else said something about hymn to tourach not being good. Let me get this straight. People think hymn to tourach, sinkhole, and four tombstalkers are not good, and that death's shadow is an underwhelming card. I'm not sure we play the same archetype.

You really think dumping your hand is a poor strategy? This is a suicide black deck, a tempo deck. Each turn you better be doing something like picking their hand apart or destroying their land (sinkhole or wasteland), though no one really uses sinkholes. And while doing that, you drop creatures to put on a clock.

I dont' see how else you play this deck. This deck is not a staller. You don't hold on to cards for the mid game, otherwise you would be playing dark confidant, tops, and bitterblossoms.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 08:33 PM
You really think dumping your hand is a poor strategy? This is a suicide black deck, a tempo deck. Each turn you better be doing something like picking their hand apart or destroying their land (sinkhole or wasteland), though no one really uses sinkholes. And while doing that, you drop creatures to put on a clock.

I dont' see how else you play this deck. This deck is not a staller. You don't hold on to cards for the mid game, otherwise you would be playing dark confidant, tops, and bitterblossoms.

I wouldnt play any of those card in this type of deck. You play dark confidant, so no wonder you lose to burn. Then you say this is tempo, so you should either be picking their hand, or destroying land(but we don't play sinkhole). What is that? Most of the lists here do not even run that much discard, but use cards from other archetypes. So far none the arguments presented here do not hold any substance.

KobeBryan
10-25-2012, 08:35 PM
I wouldnt play any of those card in this type of deck. You play dark confidant, so no wonder you lose to burn. Then you say this is tempo, so you should either be picking their hand, or destroying land(but we don't play sinkhole). What is that? Most of the lists here do not even run that much discard, but use cards from other archetypes. So far none the arguments presented here do not hold any substance.

You are not understanding my argument. If you play a slower pace style, you may as well play dark confidant, tops, and bitterblossom.

jtos84
10-25-2012, 08:48 PM
You are not understanding my argument. If you play a slower pace style, you may as well play dark confidant, tops, and bitterblossom.

I understand what you mean, but if burn was the worst matchup then confidant is the worst card in the deck. Don't get me wrong there are builds that work well with confidant, but I havn't seen anything besides bug delver winning with it lately. Bug delver is also tougher to beat than rug for this deck. The one in 20-1 was put there by bug delver. In the playtesting it is 50/50 right now, but bug delver is less played then rug. I rarely play with senseis divining top, or dark confidant. I sometimes use sylvan library, but I normally do not rely on constantly fixing the top of my library.

You also do not have to play at a suicidal pace, or you could end up doing exactly what that says. Dark ritual is a two for one that when dropping creatures can easily be reversed with swords to plowshares. I don't know how many times I have countered what was trying to be cast off dark ritual. I think that strategy has seen its last days. I could be wrong, but I'd like some tournament results with that one. These games for the most part take place in nearly the same amount of time. The most damage is dealt at the end of the game instead of at the beginning. It is just a different strategy. If you don't like it just don't like it. I'm not going to convince you this is the deck you should like the most. This is a deck I designed to do a certain thing in a certain metagame, and I thought some people might like to try it so I posted the list.

Sughayyer
10-25-2012, 10:31 PM
"I understand what you mean, but if burn was the worst matchup then confidant is the worst card in the deck. Don't get me wrong there are builds that work well with confidant, but I havn't seen anything besides bug delver winning with it lately."

You must discover a deck called the rock. It has three colors: black, green and white. Also, despite having many different builds, three cards are constant to it, and one of them is dark confidant.

I understand burn is a terrible match up for suicidal archetypes, but you can always board out confidant, and since the deck runs so much pressure, hymn to tourach (even on the side) and liliana might give a better chance. The deck still uses the best beatstick ever printed - tarmogoyf. He is fast and strong.

Sughayyer
10-25-2012, 10:34 PM
I always forget these forum functions aren't woring (or at least they don't like me...)
Another thing you can use if you fear burn that much, is kitchen finks on the side. But, how many burn decks are showing up these days?

KobeBryan
10-25-2012, 11:35 PM
I understand what you mean, but if burn was the worst matchup then confidant is the worst card in the deck. Don't get me wrong there are builds that work well with confidant, but I havn't seen anything besides bug delver winning with it lately. Bug delver is also tougher to beat than rug for this deck. The one in 20-1 was put there by bug delver. In the playtesting it is 50/50 right now, but bug delver is less played then rug. I rarely play with senseis divining top, or dark confidant. I sometimes use sylvan library, but I normally do not rely on constantly fixing the top of my library.

You also do not have to play at a suicidal pace, or you could end up doing exactly what that says. Dark ritual is a two for one that when dropping creatures can easily be reversed with swords to plowshares. I don't know how many times I have countered what was trying to be cast off dark ritual. I think that strategy has seen its last days. I could be wrong, but I'd like some tournament results with that one. These games for the most part take place in nearly the same amount of time. The most damage is dealt at the end of the game instead of at the beginning. It is just a different strategy. If you don't like it just don't like it. I'm not going to convince you this is the deck you should like the most. This is a deck I designed to do a certain thing in a certain metagame, and I thought some people might like to try it so I posted the list.

If you really understand what I mean, Let me ask you this. How are you playing this deck besides dumping your hand. Each turn you want to disrupt, put pressure on the opponent, either by discard, by land destruction, and by putting a big fatty into play.

If not this style, are you playing reactive?


"I understand what you mean, but if burn was the worst matchup then confidant is the worst card in the deck. Don't get me wrong there are builds that work well with confidant, but I havn't seen anything besides bug delver winning with it lately."

You must discover a deck called the rock. It has three colors: black, green and white. Also, despite having many different builds, three cards are constant to it, and one of them is dark confidant.

I understand burn is a terrible match up for suicidal archetypes, but you can always board out confidant, and since the deck runs so much pressure, hymn to tourach (even on the side) and liliana might give a better chance. The deck still uses the best beatstick ever printed - tarmogoyf. He is fast and strong.

I actually consider UR delver a burn deck.

Esper3k
10-26-2012, 12:14 AM
I would just refer you to what I wrote the in other post about not playing into daze unknowlingly.

I'm what I'm saying is that:

1) You don't always have the option to play around Daze.
2) Especially with Sinkhole, the problem isn't that they counter your Sinkhole with Daze, but that they bounce the land that you targeted with Sinkhole (if they even care about getting one of their lands destroyed).


Dumping your hand as fast as possible seems like a poor strategy. Sinkhole late can be good because you can then toss it to the shaman. Death's shadow seems like an overwhelming card to me. Someone else said something about hymn to tourach not being good. Let me get this straight. People think hymn to tourach, sinkhole, and four tombstalkers are not good, and that death's shadow is an underwhelming card. I'm not sure we play the same archetype.

I do not believe 4 Tombstalkers is good without a way to constantly keep adding cards to your graveyard. Opening with 2 Tombstalkers in your opener in a deck that can't Brainstorm extras away is just a kick in the balls.


You must discover a deck called the rock. It has three colors: black, green and white. Also, despite having many different builds, three cards are constant to it, and one of them is dark confidant.


And Aggro Loam! :)

jtos84
10-26-2012, 05:40 AM
I'm what I'm saying is that:

1) You don't always have the option to play around Daze.
2) Especially with Sinkhole, the problem isn't that they counter your Sinkhole with Daze, but that they bounce the land that you targeted with Sinkhole (if they even care about getting one of their lands destroyed).



I do not believe 4 Tombstalkers is good without a way to constantly keep adding cards to your graveyard. Opening with 2 Tombstalkers in your opener in a deck that can't Brainstorm extras away is just a kick in the balls.



And Aggro Loam! :)

The Rock is good, but its just not the choice I would go with in today's metagame. Getting you sinkhole dazed has about the same effect as destroying the land. Getting sinkhole dazed is good for this deck. It happenes quite often, and it doesn't matter. Most of the questions are geared around trying to play the perfect game. I also took this into condsideration when I made the deck. I learned a long time ago you have to let that way of thinking go. This deck was made so that I could utilize a particular strategy, and play in today's metagame. If the metagame changed I might even take out death's shadow, or even deathrite shaman and sinkhole. When you start playing for fun and use creative ideas meant to perform a useful function you can do more than you would think. You will aso not be able to make a magic deck that wins hands down against every deck. You will have to come to this conclusion. When a card is added to fight one deck you have probably just made your deck that much worse against three decks. The goal is to have a functional deck not a hands down unbeatable deck. I would also address one more thing. You are not gong to get much sympathy promoting other archetypes in this thread. This is not the rock or delver thread. I actually think most of the posts were pretty much useless because they were obviously going against this archetype. The lists being posted here are also less functional versions of bug delver, and or hybrids of deadguy ale or the rock.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 05:49 AM
"I understand what you mean, but if burn was the worst matchup then confidant is the worst card in the deck. Don't get me wrong there are builds that work well with confidant, but I havn't seen anything besides bug delver winning with it lately."

You must discover a deck called the rock. It has three colors: black, green and white. Also, despite having many different builds, three cards are constant to it, and one of them is dark confidant.

I understand burn is a terrible match up for suicidal archetypes, but you can always board out confidant, and since the deck runs so much pressure, hymn to tourach (even on the side) and liliana might give a better chance. The deck still uses the best beatstick ever printed - tarmogoyf. He is fast and strong.

You should repost that in the rock thread. This deck doesn't really need a better chance. When the builds you'r talking about start making the top 8 consistently, or even make the top 8 I could probably agree with you. Maybe even the top 16. Oh, and for whoever was questioning ee in the s/b you should play against any deck that makes tokens. I think I have yet to see above the level of " I don't like those cards".

ToasTer86
10-26-2012, 06:13 AM
Hi, I haven't posted in this forum for a while so I'll just say that Eva and Vesper green were amongst my first Legacy decks.

I think that the advent of RtR made Eva/Vesper Green reliable again with certain adjustments. The classic strategy of disrupt ASAP + Threat is no more in today's meta (except for RUG because counterspells, unlike discard, don't cost mana in this format). Eva Green had its prime when dedicated control and combo decks reigned supreme. Now with decks like Maverick, Rock, RUG, and the recent 12-posts, Nic Fit, etc. the "all-in" strategy of traditional Eva Green falls flat on its face because the "suicide" (AKA: Dark Ritual) power plays are too easily offset by conventional answers (removal, counterspells). I think the Legacy meta is in a much more "fair" state whereas if you want to win a match via the board state, you have to play the card exchange/card advantage game. With that being said, tempo strategies certainly aren't bad, it's just that building a viable counterspell-free tempo deck has more narrow limitations than what is traditionaly established. Here is my Eva Green list:


Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells (20)
2 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Grisly Salvage

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flat
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
1 Forest


I believe Deathrite and AD are automatic playset inclusions because they have such a wide application across so many matchups. Cards like Bob and Hymn are central to a strategy that wants to capitalize on favorable card exchanges and generate enough card advantage to negate your opponent's recovery. I think that building a mana curve that is high in quality 1-2 CMC cards is key to abusing Deathrite and being able to apply pressure on your opponent at all times.

Mongoose is my beater of choice until they print something else. He may not be the fastest clock but he is on-curve with a priceless ability and decent synergy.

Ooze is probably one of the strongest and most impactful creatures on the format right now. While Deathrites do consist of GY hate, they are often not enough.

Darkblast is my 1CMC removal card of choice because it is relevant in nearly every aggro scenario, it is accessible via Salvage, it dredges for Threshold/Deathrite.

The flex slots are pretty much Grisly Salvage, Darkblast, and Scavenging Ooze that I alternate with Ghastly Demise, Maelstrom Pulse, and Pernicious Deed.

As for Top, well there is no reasons not to play it. You can't really use consistency arguments against that card and while it costs mana to spin, well guess what, games don't always go according to plan and, believe it or not, people do end up having extra mana at some point in a game... that's when having a Top grants you a win.


I like this list, i think i am going to proxy it.
what are you using as side board.

Thanks alot.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 06:17 AM
I like this list, i think i am going to proxy it.
what are you using as side board.

Thanks alot.

Isn't this deck pretty much the same thing as bug delver minus blue?

Sughayyer
10-26-2012, 06:20 AM
Jtos I'm bailing out. Also, if you want to see the rock results, take a look at some scg top finishes. You can also talk with Ian and Matt on the rock forum. But good luck with your deck

jtos84
10-26-2012, 06:33 AM
Jtos I'm bailing out. Also, if you want to see the rock results, take a look at some scg top finishes. You can also talk with Ian and Matt on the rock forum. But good luck with your deck

I've looked for the rock in Starcity Games tournaments. It must be a while back because I don't see any in teh last three or four months.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 06:33 AM
I've looked for the rock in Starcity Games tournaments. It must be a while back because I don't see any in the last three or four months.

ToasTer86
10-26-2012, 07:51 AM
Isn't this deck pretty much the same thing as bug delver minus blue?

Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells (20)
2 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Grisly Salvage

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flat
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
1 Forest

what would you recommend for sideboard

tsabo_tavoc
10-26-2012, 08:52 AM
Here is my Eva Green list:

I like your list very much! It is just a few cards from my list, namely -4 Mongoose, +4 Tombstalker; -4 Hymn, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Darkblast, +4 Inquisition, +3 Cabal Therapy; -2 Top, +2 Grisly Salvage.

I don't like Mongoose because a 3/3 without evasion would just get blocked (and killed), and there are not enough removals to clear the path. Moreover, I am hesitant to put my beaters in the same green basket for Perish to ruin my day. As my threats are at higher CC, I opt for disruptions with lower CC. Cabal Therapy is extremely strong in this deck, as you get information from other discard spells, and it is drawn by Grisly, and gets rid of redundant Dark Confidant. Top is card quality and so is Grisly, I wonder what makes you set for the split. For me, Grisly has more synergy with the deck and gets the nod.

Edit:

what would you recommend for sideboard

I would suggest
1 Life from the Loam (good value card)
1 Darkblast (good value card, I play only 1 MD.)
3 Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction (extra yard hates to buy time for your Shaman and Ooze)
3 Phyrexian Revoker / Duress / Cabal Therapy (slots to beat combo and control, I heard discard does not carry you through their topdeck.)
4 Engineered Plague (essential against Tribals, good against Mom decks (beware of your Confidant), good with Darkblast.)
3 flex slots (if you worry about Affinity and Enchantress, Pernicious Deed belongs to the slot.)

If you would play Hymn instead of more targeted discards MD, I would put more targeted discards in SB.

Esper3k
10-26-2012, 09:00 AM
Getting you sinkhole dazed has about the same effect as destroying the land. Getting sinkhole dazed is good for this deck. It happenes quite often, and it doesn't matter.

And as I said above, I disagree - the point of Sinkhole is to destroy their land and to permanently set someone back on mana sources, not to merely set them back a land drop.

On top of that, you yourself stated that your strategy when playing your deck isn't "dump your hand as fast as possible", which actually would be the best way to take advantage of any tempo gained from at least setting someone back a land drop with Sinkhole.



Most of the questions are geared around trying to play the perfect game. I also took this into condsideration when I made the deck. I learned a long time ago you have to let that way of thinking go.

I have no idea what you're saying here. If you're trying to say that the situations people are bringing up only happen rarely, I think you're wrong.



You are not gong to get much sympathy promoting other archetypes in this thread. This is not the rock or delver thread. I actually think most of the posts were pretty much useless because they were obviously going against this archetype. The lists being posted here are also less functional versions of bug delver, and or hybrids of deadguy ale or the rock.

If you read throughout the thread, while Eva Green at its inception has been a Tombstalker deck, other viable versions of it running Dark Confidant have also been played.


You should repost that in the rock thread. This deck doesn't really need a better chance. When the builds you'r talking about start making the top 8 consistently, or even make the top 8 I could probably agree with you. Maybe even the top 16. Oh, and for whoever was questioning ee in the s/b you should play against any deck that makes tokens. I think I have yet to see above the level of " I don't like those cards".

I wasn't questioning the idea of EE in the sideboard in general, but in this deck. Generally speaking, BG has better answers to tokens than EE such as Pernicious Deed / Engineered Plage / Dread of Night. I will also stand by my assertion that EE is not very good in a deck that is pretty much 2 colors.

Also, the decklist you posted on this thread did not have EE in the sideboard.

lavafrogg
10-26-2012, 09:23 AM
I like your list very much! It is just a few cards from my list, namely -4 Mongoose, +4 Tombstalker; -4 Hymn, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Darkblast, +4 Inquisition, +3 Cabal Therapy; -2 Top, +2 Grisly Salvage.

I don't like Mongoose because a 3/3 without evasion would just get blocked (and killed), and there are not enough removals to clear the path. Moreover, I am hesitant to put my beaters in the same green basket for Perish to ruin my day. As my threats are at higher CC, I opt for disruptions with lower CC. Cabal Therapy is extremely strong in this deck, as you get information from other discard spells, and it is drawn by Grisly, and gets rid of redundant Dark Confidant. Top is card quality and so is Grisly, I wonder what makes you set for the split. For me, Grisly has more synergy with the deck and gets the nod.

I think you are highly underestimating the goose. He is one of the best threats in the format and has been for years.

tsabo_tavoc
10-26-2012, 10:00 AM
I think you are highly underestimating the goose. He is one of the best threats in the format and has been for years.

Goose is less amazing without reach. Goose is even less amazing without the blue shell that enables many more potent tempo plays (Daze, Force of Will, Stifle, and flipped Delver!!!) than a black shell. Comparing with Canadian, the only successful deck with Geese, we have the same amount of removals (about 6), but ours don't serve as reach; and our tempo plays are far weaker than theirs. I remember more BUG Aggro lists having success with Tombstalker than with Goose. A Tombstalker could be removed, but in many more circumstances from BG Eva than from Canadian, a Goose would not draw a removal, even if it did not have Shroud.

MirrorMask
10-26-2012, 10:53 AM
Guys, jtos just wants to believe that his ideas are the best without any actual proof- like some hardcore religious guys who are completely blind to the world around them but want to force others into their beliefs. Let him have his ideas and don't try to persuade him. You just waste your time. Concentrate on the actual thread and not on him as this pointless "discussion" leads nowhere. Really.

Schembo
10-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Took a swing with eva last weekend. Got shitty matchups (2xdredge, burn, bg trollvine) so need to test more next sunday. List was

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Gatekeeper of malakir
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Snuff Out
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Jitte

4 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
7 Polluted delta
4 Wasteland

SB

4 Leyline of the void
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 E. Plague
2 Maelstrom pulse

Went 1-3. Burn was really close call and shaman helped a lot there. Same agains dredge altought i lost all those games :rolleyes: Im definetly going to add 4th stalker in and go to 2 gatekeepers. Didnt got any picture how many decays is optimum but going with 4 for next tourney.

Esper3k
10-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Yeah I think if you run 4x Grisly Salvage, 4x Tombstalker might actually be viable since you can find them / dump crap into your yard so quickly.

Schembo
10-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Yep, i noticed that in last sunday.

Almost forgot that burn might actually run permanents and was cursing my five with AD before opponent dropped Sulfuric Vortex. Took about 10 life with shaman and opponent killed 3 tombstalkers in that 3th game, sadly burn topdecks better than eva.

KobeBryan
10-26-2012, 02:15 PM
Yep, i noticed that in last sunday.

Almost forgot that burn might actually run permanents and was cursing my five with AD before opponent dropped Sulfuric Vortex. Took about 10 life with shaman and opponent killed 3 tombstalkers in that 3th game, sadly burn topdecks better than eva.

I think if anything you should take out scavenging ooze. You have deathrite for that same purpose.

You can up the tombstalker on that slot and maybe put in another card, sylvan library.

May i suggest you rework your sideboard

SB

4 Leyline of the void - 4 leylines is a bit much for a deck with 4 deathrites.
3 Choke - not essential, but ok. Maybe bitterblossoms to stop the control decks and maybe more 1 card discards instead.
3 Krosan Grip - whats the reason for this? you have abrupt decay already. The only thing you can't kill with abrupt decay is batterskull and moat. Nothing else.
3 E. Plague - I rather play this at 4.
2 Maelstrom pulse - maybe another one to stop jace.

And whats your opinion on running 4 dark rituals...you ahve almost 30 mana generators.

Schembo
10-26-2012, 02:39 PM
I think if anything you should take out scavenging ooze. You have deathrite for that same purpose.

You can up the tombstalker on that slot and maybe put in another card, sylvan library.


Might consider this, got couple japanese libraries last week :cool: Only drawback is you cant remove enchaments,artifacts and planeswalkers anymore....



May i suggest you rework your sideboard

SB

4 Leyline of the void - 4 leylines is a bit much for a deck with 4 deathrites.
3 Choke - not essential, but ok. Maybe bitterblossoms to stop the control decks and maybe more 1 card discards instead.
3 Krosan Grip - whats the reason for this? you have abrupt decay already. The only thing you can't kill with abrupt decay is batterskull and moat. Nothing else.
3 E. Plague - I rather play this at 4.
2 Maelstrom pulse - maybe another one to stop jace.


Nope, 4 leylines isnt too much. It's just right amount. I might have mentioned this but my meta is a bit twisted, about 10 local players got dredge....

Grip is just leftover for time before Decay and those are going to be replaced. Maybe 3th pulse and 2 duress/Virtue's Ruin depending how many S&T/maverick i think i'm going to encounter.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 03:57 PM
And as I said above, I disagree - the point of Sinkhole is to destroy their land and to permanently set someone back on mana sources, not to merely set them back a land drop.

On top of that, you yourself stated that your strategy when playing your deck isn't "dump your hand as fast as possible", which actually would be the best way to take advantage of any tempo gained from at least setting someone back a land drop with Sinkhole.



I have no idea what you're saying here. If you're trying to say that the situations people are bringing up only happen rarely, I think you're wrong.



If you read throughout the thread, while Eva Green at its inception has been a Tombstalker deck, other viable versions of it running Dark Confidant have also been played.



I wasn't questioning the idea of EE in the sideboard in general, but in this deck. Generally speaking, BG has better answers to tokens than EE such as Pernicious Deed / Engineered Plage / Dread of Night. I will also stand by my assertion that EE is not very good in a deck that is pretty much 2 colors.

Also, the decklist you posted on this thread did not have EE in the sideboard.

EE is a one of in the s/b that can target instead of wiping the board. This can be good against enchantress, or for just putting it out turn one. When they set themselves back a turn on lands with daze they are not in a position to cast tarmogoyf sometimes, or two creatures. So you are saying it is not possible to tur an opponents daze into your advantage? They also use wasteland, so this is another land they will lose on their own. Yea, you don't need to have very single card set in stone. I actually still use it in my lists. You also tried in the above text to use my own words against me in a dfferent circumstance. When speaking of dumping you hand I am efering to dark ritual plays. The part where you say you have no idea what I was talking about. I believe you because what you are speaking of about rarity in plays has nothing to do with waht I was talking about. These responses seem kind of out of nowhere really. I don't know how many people are obsessed over the sinkhole daze situation. How many matches do you expect to play against daze in a tournament? I would think not so many times to warrent this much fear of the card.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 04:02 PM
Guys, jtos just wants to believe that his ideas are the best without any actual proof- like some hardcore religious guys who are completely blind to the world around them but want to force others into their beliefs. Let him have his ideas and don't try to persuade him. You just waste your time. Concentrate on the actual thread and not on him as this pointless "discussion" leads nowhere. Really.

I actually posted a decklist and said something like I hope you try it out, andleft it at that. After that people began trying to brainwash me into not liking sinkhole, so I defended my position. I never told anyone they have to believe my ideas. I just provide examples from the games I have played. The people in the forums are the ones trying to say how everything has to be. I am just saying if you are going to use the deck certain things will result from playing certain cards. This discussion has now stooped to a lower level by your post. You can bring up anything. You can try to persuade me, but that is not even neccesary. Just present you idea for whoever you want to read. As far as comparing me to a religeous zealot who is blind to the world I would say you do not have any idea who I am, and I think that is not only out of line, but there is no place for that type of remark anywhere.

Mirrormask your post just shows that you are the one telling people what to think. I never said my ideas were the best. I am defending my card choices, and nothing more. You say I have presented no actual proof also. I gave a tournament report, and I played against the decks everyone is speaking of. So far I have pretty much shown that what you guys are saying doesn't bear much meaning. You have said sinkhole is not good. I think that is about as far as this discussion has gotten.

jtos84
10-26-2012, 04:17 PM
I would let the discussion on my deck drop unless you are discussing it amongst yourselves. You can say whatever you want to each other, and it would be very unlikey I would respond unless it is to make suggestion, or something very slight. You can call my deck the worst creation evagreen has ever seen, but if you say it to me I will just defend my deck choice. Really though I would just focus on making deck lists, or whatever you feel like talking about, but if you reply to me you are very likely to get my thoughts on your post.

I was also wondering if you guys have come up with some type of standard for what evagreen should be today? Also do you guys have any tournament results to show you have a viable deck called evagreen? I think there should be somewhat of a standard list to work with.

Esper3k
10-26-2012, 04:34 PM
EE is a one of in the s/b that can target instead of wiping the board. This can be good against enchantress, or for just putting it out turn one. When they set themselves back a turn on lands with daze they are not in a position to cast tarmogoyf sometimes, or two creatures. So you are saying it is not possible to tur an opponents daze into your advantage? They also use wasteland, so this is another land they will lose on their own. Yea, you don't need to have very single card set in stone. I actually still use it in my lists. You also tried in the above text to use my own words against me in a dfferent circumstance. When speaking of dumping you hand I am efering to dark ritual plays. The part where you say you have no idea what I was talking about. I believe you because what you are speaking of about rarity in plays has nothing to do with waht I was talking about. These responses seem kind of out of nowhere really. I don't know how many people are obsessed over the sinkhole daze situation. How many matches do you expect to play against daze in a tournament? I would think not so many times to warrent this much fear of the card.

Ok, I didn't see EE in the SB of the decklist you posted, which was why I was just curious you had been talking about it.

Like I said, sometimes you can stall them a turn or so if you can get a RUG player to Daze your Sinkhole to protect their land. However, in my experience, more often they either don't care about the land they lost, or they continue playing 1 drops. In keeping them from playing a 2 drop, you're assuming the best case scenario of being on the play and casting Sinkhole on T2. If you are on the draw or don't open with Sinkhole, you miss your chance of Sinkholing someone out of playing a Tarmogoyf.

Given that RUG is still probably the most popular deck in the American metagame, I expect to face it multiple times in a large tournament.

KobeBryan
10-26-2012, 04:57 PM
I was also wondering if you guys have come up with some type of standard for what evagreen should be today? Also do you guys have any tournament results to show you have a viable deck called evagreen? I think there should be somewhat of a standard list to work with.

No. This deck is a pretty dead archtype. It was until this last set that we got 2 new toys. This deck cannot hold up in a large tournament, sure you may be able to win a small one with like 20 people, but in a large SCG venue, no.

There is no viable decklist right now. This deck is missing 1 creature to make it at least competitive.

MirrorMask
10-26-2012, 06:48 PM
I actually posted a decklist and said something like I hope you try it out, andleft it at that. After that people began trying to brainwash me into not liking sinkhole, so I defended my position. I never told anyone they have to believe my ideas. I just provide examples from the games I have played. The people in the forums are the ones trying to say how everything has to be. I am just saying if you are going to use the deck certain things will result from playing certain cards. This discussion has now stooped to a lower level by your post. You can bring up anything. You can try to persuade me, but that is not even neccesary. Just present you idea for whoever you want to read. As far as comparing me to a religeous zealot who is blind to the world I would say you do not have any idea who I am, and I think that is not only out of line, but there is no place for that type of remark anywhere.

Mirrormask your post just shows that you are the one telling people what to think. I never said my ideas were the best. I am defending my card choices, and nothing more. You say I have presented no actual proof also. I gave a tournament report, and I played against the decks everyone is speaking of. So far I have pretty much shown that what you guys are saying doesn't bear much meaning. You have said sinkhole is not good. I think that is about as far as this discussion has gotten.

To be honest I never said anything about your deck other "than Avatar of shadow was correct". I tried to persuade no one and you should read better next time before posting. The rest of the guys here provided proof for their opinion. Well, their opinion cannot be objective 100% as it has to do with their personal point of view and preferences, but at least they tried and also kept the discussion civilized. If you read your posts again and don't really understand what you said and how poor your arguments were (by not submitting any kind of "proof" while at the same time you kept bashing at others' opinions) I think we have nothing else to discuss. You just don't have the mental capacity to understand what a dialog truly is and how far you can go.
You never defended your ideas. You just said that they were the best.

EDIT:

Also, regarding sinkhole:
Consider that you opponent plays...let's say reanimator. Lets also assume you go first.

Your turn 1 : you play land, and discard effect-they maybe force it -doesn't always matter that much.
Opp.turn 1: play fetch, underground sea
Your turn 2: land, sinkhole. He dazes and get his sea back
Opp.turn 2 : play the same land, and leaves it untapped.
Your turn 3: continue with your plan. He plays entomb/careful study and drops a big guy in the g.y
Opp.turn 3 : probably reanimates. if not he is in the process of finding a reanimation spell with brainstorm or ponder.

Now, you wasted your second turn with sinkhole, not playing a tarmogoyf (for example) and just dragged the game a bit longer. He played an entomb/study which you couldn't answer and you were also tapped out. What do you do? Did you slow him down enough? No! NOT AT ALL! I play reanimator regularly and this type of play doesn't even bother me. Now if you can sinkhole and wasteland I may have some problem. But I also run basics so your wastelands do nothing. Tarmogoyf may not win you this game if played in turn 2 BUT if I have only "reanimate" in my hand then it IS relevant. Now tell me which choice is the best? I assume this scenario is also true against RUG-Delver, U/R-Delver, combo-elves (ok joking you probably won't see this at a tournament :P) and any other fast deck. Sinkhole practically makes you lose tempo if you are against really low mana curve decks as it only drags the game a bit longer while not giving you any kind of advantage over them as you also loose a whole turn when they DON'T loose anything. Never forget that brainstorms and ponders and fetchlands are rampant in the meta and they can fix the land "problem" quite fast. Of course there are times when sinkhole is relevant but I believe (I repeat : BELIEVE) that they are somewhat rare.

KobeBryan
10-26-2012, 08:17 PM
To be honest I never said anything about your deck other "than Avatar of shadow was correct". I tried to persuade no one and you should read better next time before posting. The rest of the guys here provided proof for their opinion. Well, their opinion cannot be objective 100% as it has to do with their personal point of view and preferences, but at least they tried and also kept the discussion civilized. If you read your posts again and don't really understand what you said and how poor your arguments were (by not submitting any kind of "proof" while at the same time you kept bashing at others' opinions) I think we have nothing else to discuss. You just don't have the mental capacity to understand what a dialog truly is and how far you can go.
You never defended your ideas. You just said that they were the best.

EDIT:

Also, regarding sinkhole:
Consider that you opponent plays...let's say reanimator. Lets also assume you go first.

Your turn 1 : you play land, and discard effect-they maybe force it -doesn't always matter that much.
Opp.turn 1: play fetch, underground sea
Your turn 2: land, sinkhole. He dazes and get his sea back
Opp.turn 2 : play the same land, and leaves it untapped.
Your turn 3: continue with your plan. He plays entomb/careful study and drops a big guy in the g.y
Opp.turn 3 : probably reanimates. if not he is in the process of finding a reanimation spell with brainstorm or ponder.

Now, you wasted your second turn with sinkhole, not playing a tarmogoyf (for example) and just dragged the game a bit longer. He played an entomb/study which you couldn't answer and you were also tapped out. What do you do? Did you slow him down enough? No! NOT AT ALL! I play reanimator regularly and this type of play doesn't even bother me. Now if you can sinkhole and wasteland I may have some problem. But I also run basics so your wastelands do nothing. Tarmogoyf may not win you this game if played in turn 2 BUT if I have only "reanimate" in my hand then it IS relevant. Now tell me which choice is the best? I assume this scenario is also true against RUG-Delver, U/R-Delver, combo-elves (ok joking you probably won't see this at a tournament :P) and any other fast deck. Sinkhole practically makes you lose tempo if you are against really low mana curve decks as it only drags the game a bit longer while not giving you any kind of advantage over them as you also loose a whole turn when they DON'T loose anything. Never forget that brainstorms and ponders and fetchlands run rampant in the meta and they can fix the land "problem" quite fast. Of course there are times when sinkhole is relevant but I believe (I repeat : BELIEVE) that they are somewhat rare.

Well to be fair to him...that reanimator hand is pretty godlike. Without counters, that hand is hard to beat. Even with counters, you have a daze and a force as backup....pretty good in my opinion.

But yes, because so many decks can function off of one land, sinkhole is quite useless. I think that is the gist of the arguments being presented.

Now lets think of a less godlike hand. Maverick, Turn 1 drop noble hierach (a fairly common play).

Your turn 1 - drop land, play thougtseize, get a knight

their turn 2 - Drop land, - now they have 3 mana.

Your turn - drop land, sinkhole.

Their turn - (assuming they don't have a land drop), tap original land, and noble, 2 drop an ooze, a goyf, or gsz for another hierach.

Your turn - u drop land. You are at 3 lands. not much you can do at this point. maybe drop a gatekeepr or a goyf.

It just goes to show that sinkhole isn't all that great with so many cheap efficient creatures.

Greenpoe
10-26-2012, 08:47 PM
If you're playing Sinkhole, you should really consider running Smallpox (in place of- or in addition to-). Historically, it's seen some (limited) success in this deck since it hits their hand, creatures and land, can be pretty good! Smallpox might take some building around, but with things like GSZ and Deathrite Shaman as mana-when-you-need-it type cards, Smallpox could be usable as an Eva-green/Pox hybrid, except instead of running subpar creatures like Bloodghast, you could run real creatures. Throw in a couple of Reanimates and it could be decent.

MirrorMask
10-26-2012, 09:13 PM
AH.. well you have a point there Avatar. I think I went a little bit overboard with my my example. But the counter spells isn't the point here. As I wrote he "may" counter with force. If he doesn't then he will be delayed. But this is not the point. I just wanted to show how much delay can a sinkhole create. However, the possibility of having a reanimation spell with careful study or thoughtseize or entomb is in fact pretty high...

jtos84
10-27-2012, 08:34 AM
AH.. well you have a point there Avatar. I think I went a little bit overboard with my my example. But the counter spells isn't the point here. As I wrote he "may" counter with force. If he doesn't then he will be delayed. But this is not the point. I just wanted to show how much delay can a sinkhole create. However, the possibility of having a reanimation spell with careful study or thoughtseize or entomb is in fact pretty high...

I had been at odds with the reanimator matchup. I had already changed my s/b. This is what I am running in the s/b right now. I would think this is what I will use.

3 - Engineered Plague
1 - Umezawa's Jitte
2 - Pithing Needle
3 - Tormod's Crypt
3 - Abrupt Decay
1 -Engineered Explosives
2 - Surgical Extraction

Let me give some more insight into my sinkhole decision. I noticed that decks like Lands will show up with maze of ith, and other cards like rishdan port, and various other lands that can beat a lot of decks. Those are the key decks when deciding to run sinkhole aside from what I know it can do. This can probably be a metagame issue whether you run a card in the place of sinkhole which is fine, but I can't just recommend it without trying it. When I play rug delver this match has been in my favor. Bug delver is a 50/50 matchup, but fewer players use bug delver. I actually do think this deck has what it takes to win tournaments, but it could also be the difference in a couple people using it as oppossed to 30 people running rug delver, or show and tell. I really do think this archetype can do well if everyone just keeps running ideas by each other. Just take my list as an idea, and not the standard.

jtos84
10-27-2012, 08:37 AM
If you're playing Sinkhole, you should really consider running Smallpox (in place of- or in addition to-). Historically, it's seen some (limited) success in this deck since it hits their hand, creatures and land, can be pretty good! Smallpox might take some building around, but with things like GSZ and Deathrite Shaman as mana-when-you-need-it type cards, Smallpox could be usable as an Eva-green/Pox hybrid, except instead of running subpar creatures like Bloodghast, you could run real creatures. Throw in a couple of Reanimates and it could be decent.

I have respect for the small pox build. I think if more people ran it there were be more high placements. With eternal formats you will get a lot of people who come from other formats, and net deck something tier. That is not a bad decison, but that is probably why archetypes like these two can go unoticed at times. I personally only play legacy, so that I can maintain a feel for the format plus I am in college so I can be busy sometimes. I used to play a lot of vintage, and I can play about any deck in that format, but for now I am only playing legacy. Smallpox would probably be counter productve with the original creatures in this archetype, but there may be some other combination of cards that can make it.

MirrorMask
10-27-2012, 10:50 AM
Its true. If you want to win the reanimator/dredge match up you will need at minimum 4 sideboard hate. Well don't get me wrong; I wasn't trying to say that "hey, your deck sucks! you can't beat reanimator game one". I just tried to show that sinkhole slows you down as well. I also think that this deck can compete but to be tier 1 or 1.5 we will need another good creature. Nantuko shade really isn't that good any more. Its so mana intensive that it sucks and if its gonna stay 2/1 then better play gravecrawler ! :eek: