[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[dameus]

I agree, this deck needs a good 1B or BG creature (so Mav doesn't get it, too!) to really take off.
I think Oona's Prowler might be the best in that slot right now. But I don't see anybody running it. Same with Knight of Infamy. Just not quite good enough, I guess.

[mmmetaphor]

I actually posted a decklist and said something like I hope you try it out, andleft it at that. After that people began trying to brainwash me into not liking sinkhole, so I defended my position. I never told anyone they have to believe my ideas. I just provide examples from the games I have played. The people in the forums are the ones trying to say how everything has to be. I am just saying if you are going to use the deck certain things will result from playing certain cards. This discussion has now stooped to a lower level by your post. You can bring up anything. You can try to persuade me, but that is not even neccesary. Just present you idea for whoever you want to read. As far as comparing me to a religeous zealot who is blind to the world I would say you do not have any idea who I am, and I think that is not only out of line, but there is no place for that type of remark anywhere.

Mirrormask your post just shows that you are the one telling people what to think. I never said my ideas were the best. I am defending my card choices, and nothing more. You say I have presented no actual proof also. I gave a tournament report, and I played against the decks everyone is speaking of. So far I have pretty much shown that what you guys are saying doesn't bear much meaning. You have said sinkhole is not good. I think that is about as far as this discussion has gotten.



Well I for one like jtos84s deck list and applaud him for breathing some life into this stale thread. I like the use of sinkholes. Now I understand the counter argument but there are counter arguments to counter arguments and so on and so forth. My justification: many legacy decks run dangerously low numbers of lands and a well timed sinkhole can often disrupt enough to allow goyf and company enough time to beat for the win. An early game sinkhole must be answered with either counter magic or additional land drops, if these conditions aren't met then we have gained a nice distruption advantage.

To jtos84- one disruption angle that I find powerful if using sinkholes main is up the fetch land count to around 10 (also helps DRS and Tombstalker) and add a single scrubland, then I play +3 Thalia out of the sideboard. Getting white is no problem with 10 fetches+scrubland +4 DRS. Bringing them (Thalia) in vs certain decks along with sinkhole/wasteland already on board can prove very devastating. Just an idea and one that I've been using with good results.

Also, Ive been experimenting with grisly salvage with mixed results. I was running 4 but have since dropped to 3. I can see those 3 slots becoming something else but they do help with getting Tombstalker on line and finding an extra creature or a critical wasteland at times. For now they stay in my build.

My current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Sinkhole
3 Grisly Salvage

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top

10 Fetch Lands
4 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB

3 Engineered Plague
3 Thalia
2 Extirpate
2 Inquisition of Koz
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Faerie Macabre

[jtos84]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the archetype. After noting all of the advice I received (most of which was taken hard headedly) I think I have optimized the version that I play. Here is the decklist. I will discuss my deck changes also.

Lands
4 - Verdant Catacomb
3 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wasteland
4 - Bayou
4 - Swamp
1 - Forest

Creatures
4 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Tombstalker
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Death's Shadow

Instants
2 - Abrupt Decay
2 - Dismember
2 - Snuff Out

Sorceries
4 - Thoughtseize
4 - Hymn to Tourach
3 - Inquisition of Kozilek
4 - Sinkhole
1 - Night's Whisper

Enchantments
2 - Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 - Maelstrom Pulse
3 - Engineered Plague
3 - Surgical Extraction
3 - Angel of Despair
2 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Umezawa's Jitte

The forest in the main had to be added to stabilize the manabase while the deck tries to destroy lands. The original plan was to use the bayous as bait, and that worked, but if more green is used in the main a forest has to stay on the board. I changed out the Go for the Throats with abrupt decays, and this freed up s/b slots. I put the night's whisper back in because it is never a bad card to have in this deck. The sylvan library just seemed to be win more, and strained the manabase. I tried the deck with multiple night's whispers, but that was also just win more. I tried the deck without sinkholes, and with only three and I have found that your success rate drops dramatically. There are times when sinkhole is s/b'd out, and sometimes two are taken out.

The Maelstrom Pulses in the s/b were added for Jace the Mindsculptor and any random plainswalkers. It also replaced the engineered explosives which was meant for tokens. The Angels of Despair and surgical extractions are pretty important for show and tell. The tormod's crypts and surgical extractions are for reanimator, and any graveyard strategies. The surgical extractions can be very good when used for swords to plowshares also. This is a deck I would like to see played more of in the legacy metagame. The difficulty level may be a bit higher because of the death's shadows, but I hope that doesn't detur anyone from at least trying it out.

Some of the reasons I worked with this archetype is because I only play one format and that is Legacy. By playing this deck I am able to avoid mirror matches, and I can have the advantage of playing a deck that is not going to be familiar to the opponent. The advantage is the turn one disruption. This will be good against combo, or to help use your sinkholes to there full potential.

[KobeBryan]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the archetype. After noting all of the advice I received (most of which was taken hard headedly) I think I have optimized the version that I play. Here is the decklist. I will discuss my deck changes also.

Lands
4 - Verdant Catacomb
3 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wasteland
4 - Bayou
4 - Swamp
1 - Forest

Creatures
4 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Tombstalker
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Death's Shadow

Instants
2 - Abrupt Decay
2 - Dismember
2 - Snuff Out

Sorceries
4 - Thoughtseize
4 - Hymn to Tourach
3 - Inquisition of Kozilek
4 - Sinkhole
1 - Night's Whisper

Enchantments
2 - Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 - Maelstrom Pulse
3 - Engineered Plague
3 - Surgical Extraction
3 - Angel of Despair
2 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Umezawa's Jitte

The forest in the main had to be added to stabilize the manabase while the deck tries to destroy lands. The original plan was to use the bayous as bait, and that worked, but if more green is used in the main a forest has to stay on the board. I changed out the Go for the Throat's with abrupt decays, and this freed up s/b slots. I put the night's whisper back in because it is never a bad card to have in this deck. The sylvan library just seemed to be win more, and strained the manabase. I tried the deck with multiple night's whispers, but that was also just win more. I tried the deck without sinkholes, and with only three and I have found that your success rate drops dramatically. There are times when sinkhole is s/b'd out, and sometimes two are taken out.

The Maelstrom Pulses in the s/b were added for Jace the Mindsculptor and any random plainswalkers. It also replaced the engineered explosives which was meant for tokens. The Angels of Despair and surgical extractions are pretty important for show and tell. The tormod's crypts and surgical extractions are for reanimator, and any graveyard strategies. The surgical extractions can be very good when used for swords to plowshares also. This is a deck I would like to see played more of in the legacy metagame. The difficulty level may be a bit higher because of the death's shadows, but I hope that doesn't detur anyone from at least trying it out.

Some of the reasons I worked with this archetype is because I only play one format and that is Legacy. By playing this deck I am able to avoid mirror matches, and I can have the advantage of playing a deck that is not going to be familiar to the opponent. The advantage is the turn one disruption. This will be good against combo, or to help use your sinkholes to there full potential.

Just dump the 1 of nights whisper...whats the point.

[Zirath]

So I ended up playing Eva Green this weekend at the NELC (I've been eyeing the archetype for a long time since Deathrite Shaman/Abrupt Decay). Here was my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Death's Shadow
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pretty much jtos's list we've all been wondering about. I decided on one GSZ because I thought it would help virtually increase my threat density since I was very unsure about Death's Shadow. My matches were:

2-0 vs Aggro Loam
0-2 vs Scapeshift Nic Fit (player who top 8'd and is from my group in Ithaca)
0-2 vs MUD (actually my student for MUD ironically)
2-0 vs Combo Elves
2-0 vs Jund
0-2 vs RWB Gate (Not Team Italia, this match was very close and I'm more than sure I punted since I threw away game 1 by keeping a horrible hand)

Death's Shadow singlehandedly won both the Aggro Loam and Jund matches. The way this list is built, Shadow was instrumental in closing games. Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library were both completely underwhelming. I wished Deed was Explosives multiple times and that Library was Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood. Sinkhole was alright but there were times where it just didn't do a tremendous amount. I think I might have been using it slight wrong. If I were to play it again, I would run this as my mainboard:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
5 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

2 Sign in Blood

All in all, I think this list was taken for granted. It is way more powerful and consistent than I thought. I was sure Death's Shadow was stone wrong and I was proven very wrong about that. I urge everyone to give it a real serious try since it was actually wonderful to play with.

[Esper3k]

Just curious, but what made you give up on MUD for now?

[Zirath]

Just curious, but what made you give up on MUD for now?

Combination of things. Primarily that Black decks getting stronger is a problem since it's easier for them to formulate a plan to beat me and I was playing the deck very poorly lately so I thought it was time to move to other things for now. I'm sure I'll be back on MUD at some point but since Deathrite Shaman is kind of awesome to play with I thought I would try some new stuff.

[Esper3k]

Combination of things. Primarily that Black decks getting stronger is a problem since it's easier for them to formulate a plan to beat me and I was playing the deck very poorly lately so I thought it was time to move to other things for now. I'm sure I'll be back on MUD at some point but since Deathrite Shaman is kind of awesome to play with I thought I would try some new stuff.

Yeah Deathrite Shaman is definitely one of those guys I want to give a spin sometime.

Did you ever run into any problems with a 2x Tombstalker opener? That's the main reason many of us don't play the full 4x anymore (although with Grisly Salvage, 4x may not be a problem anymore).

[KobeBryan]

So I ended up playing Eva Green this weekend at the NELC (I've been eyeing the archetype for a long time since Deathrite Shaman/Abrupt Decay). Here was my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Death's Shadow
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pretty much jtos's list we've all been wondering about. I decided on one GSZ because I thought it would help virtually increase my threat density since I was very unsure about Death's Shadow. My matches were:

2-0 vs Aggro Loam
0-2 vs Scapeshift Nic Fit (player who top 8'd and is from my group in Ithaca)
0-2 vs MUD (actually my student for MUD ironically)
2-0 vs Combo Elves
2-0 vs Jund
0-2 vs RWB Gate (Not Team Italia, this match was very close and I'm more than sure I punted since I threw away game 1 by keeping a horrible hand)

Death's Shadow singlehandedly won both the Aggro Loam and Jund matches. The way this list is built, Shadow was instrumental in closing games. Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library were both completely underwhelming. I wished Deed was Explosives multiple times and that Library was Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood. Sinkhole was alright but there were times where it just didn't do a tremendous amount. I think I might have been using it slight wrong. If I were to play it again, I would run this as my mainboard:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
5 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

2 Sign in Blood

All in all, I think this list was taken for granted. It is way more powerful and consistent than I thought. I was sure Death's Shadow was stone wrong and I was proven very wrong about that. I urge everyone to give it a real serious try since it was actually wonderful to play with.

looks like you mirrored JT84's deck.

but the decks you played against aren't really meta decks. ALl of them you don't really have a good sideboard plan against them.

Did you playtest this deck against the tier 1 decks before this tournament?

[Richard Cheese]

Has anyone tried just splashing red for burn instead of the less-popular creature options? Sorry if this has been beaten to death already, but I don't really have time to cruise back through the whole thread, and the search functionality on this board always seems pretty terrible.

[Zirath]

looks like you mirrored JT84's deck.

but the decks you played against aren't really meta decks. ALl of them you don't really have a good sideboard plan against them.

Did you playtest this deck against the tier 1 decks before this tournament?

I didn't get to test a huge amount. I played against Junk a decent amount to help the guy who ended up winning test (he's a friend of mine) and that match up seemed somewhat favorable.

I'm hoping to keep playing Eva Green for a while since I enjoyed my experience with the deck.

[metronome2charisma]

i posted a deaths shadow list in the u/b deaths shadow thread a few weks ago that looks very similar to alot of the decks you guys are trying out. (i run bug deaths shadow) You guys should take a look as alot of my numbers are the same as yours and its pretty good

[jtos84]

I'm glad someone ran it in a tournament, and enjoyed it. I played it in a 23 man the other day and I placed fourth. The game I lost was to rug delver. Game one was a mull to five, but I pulled the win. Game two was another mull to either five or six, and I had one green, and one black mana in the game. I think I may have had one more bayou that got wastelanded. I thought I would get owned, but it came down to the mana. I was holding two death's shadows and the one I was able to cast was submerged two turns in a row, and mongoose swung for lethal. Game three was mana screw to the point there was never a chance. Just bad luck, but I gave cutting nights whisper a try, and replaced it with a swamp. I think that did the trick.

The s/b I am using now is this.
3 - maelstrom pulse
1 - umezewa's jitte
2 - tormod's crypt
3 - surgcal extraction
3 - angel of despair
1 - engineered explosives
2 - go for the throat

I am experimenting with the exclusion of engineered plague because I either win the match without it, or I die before I cast it. Goblins and Merfolk are not so heavily played that it should be a must have in the s/b. It could be though. I am wondering if I should just use one virtues ruin and one perish instead. The maelstrom pulse is for Jace the mindsculptor for the most part in case anyone is wondering.

[Schembo]

Has anyone tried just splashing red for burn instead of the less-popular creature options? Sorry if this has been beaten to death already, but I don't really have time to cruise back through the whole thread, and the search functionality on this board always seems pretty terrible.

Here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5631-Deck-Red-Death&p=126446&viewfull=1#post126446

[jtos84]

So I ended up playing Eva Green this weekend at the NELC (I've been eyeing the archetype for a long time since Deathrite Shaman/Abrupt Decay). Here was my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Death's Shadow
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pretty much jtos's list we've all been wondering about. I decided on one GSZ because I thought it would help virtually increase my threat density since I was very unsure about Death's Shadow. My matches were:

2-0 vs Aggro Loam
0-2 vs Scapeshift Nic Fit (player who top 8'd and is from my group in Ithaca)
0-2 vs MUD (actually my student for MUD ironically)
2-0 vs Combo Elves
2-0 vs Jund
0-2 vs RWB Gate (Not Team Italia, this match was very close and I'm more than sure I punted since I threw away game 1 by keeping a horrible hand)

Death's Shadow singlehandedly won both the Aggro Loam and Jund matches. The way this list is built, Shadow was instrumental in closing games. Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library were both completely underwhelming. I wished Deed was Explosives multiple times and that Library was Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood. Sinkhole was alright but there were times where it just didn't do a tremendous amount. I think I might have been using it slight wrong. If I were to play it again, I would run this as my mainboard:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
5 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Snuff Out

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

2 Sign in Blood

All in all, I think this list was taken for granted. It is way more powerful and consistent than I thought. I was sure Death's Shadow was stone wrong and I was proven very wrong about that. I urge everyone to give it a real serious try since it was actually wonderful to play with.

You look like your wanting to make he same changes I tried after I played in some tournemants. The extra draw ends up being unneccessary. The deck just needs an extra swamp to smooth out the hands. I would take out the sylvan library also. The fourth thoughtseize is probably better for synergy with death's shadow and the possiblity for catching an emrakul in hand, but it may not be that important. Too me sinkhole is the best card in the deck next to tombstalker. Tombstalker shines against delver of secrets. Not many decks play creatures with flyng, so it is normally the biggest or only flyer. I think the biggest obastacle for people new to the deck is death's shadow. That is generally not an easy card to play with, but I think this is the easiest deck to play it in.

After you are practiced with the deck games come down to s/bing. Against esper stoneblade you probably want to s/b out the death's shadows for maelstrom pulse and maybe an ee. I normally s/b out two sinkholes in the delver match for ee and jitte. If I think of other questionable matches for the s/b I will post on them, or you can ask anyone in the forum. I am sure they understand that as much as I do. I got some of the ideas from the replies in this forum.

[Zirath]

You look like your wanting to make he same changes I tried after I played in some tournemants. The extra draw ends up being unneccessary. The deck just needs an extra swamp to smooth out the hands. I would take out the sylvan library also. The fourth thoughtseize is probably better for synergy with death's shadow and the possiblity for catching an emrakul in hand, but it may not be that important. Too me sinkhole is the best card in the deck next to tombstalker. Tombstalker shines against delver of secrets. Not many decks play creatures with flyng, so it is normally the biggest or only flyer. I think the biggest obastacle for people new to the deck is death's shadow. That is generally not an easy card to play with, but I think this is the easiest deck to play it in.

After you are practiced with the deck games come down to s/bing. Against esper stoneblade you probably want to s/b out the death's shadows for maelstrom pulse and maybe an ee. I normally s/b out two sinkholes in the delver match for ee and jitte. If I think of other questionable matches for the s/b I will post on them, or you can ask anyone in the forum. I am sure they understand that as much as I do. I got some of the ideas from the replies in this forum.

I had 3 Thoughtseize because I only had 3. I would gladly run 4 if I could.

There were a few times I wished I had Night's Whisper or similar, but in general, you're right, it's not that strong. Library was just horrible.

Death's Shadow was very good actually. I thoroughly enjoyed playing with it.

I'll work out the sideboard a little more and decide what I want. I'm worried that I will end up cutting the Sign in Bloods as is.

[jtos84]

I figured the list has been out long enough, and played to an extent I can explain some more card choices. I expected that this deck was good enough to see widespread play if people chose to play it, so I included dismember for the mirror match. Go for the throat was also originally for that purpose in part, but it came down to being less playable than abrupt decay.

I think there was also concern over pernicious deed. This card is probably what makes the deck as consistent as it is. I don't think I have run into the cirumstance where I didn't want it in my deck, or wanting engineered explosives instead. Pernicious deed will destroy pretty much anything but a plainswalker. Pernicious deed is also works well with tombstalker. Most of the time it is the only card left on the board. In my metagame people have started using engineered explosives as a two of in the s/b because of this deck. They also use four spell peirces which should make it more difficult. The deck is so straight forward that it doesn't end up mattering.

[Esper3k]

In the more aggressive builds with Tombstalker / Death's Shadow, I'm not actually a fan of Pernicious Deed since it blows up your own Death's Shadow and it's slower. With 21 lands, it's also not a guarantee that we'll be able to hit 3 mana on time to cast it through Wasteland and Daze. Against control decks, Deed isn't that good because their biggest threats are usually planeswalkers anyways.

SB wise, I like Virtue's Ruin quite a bit for the Maverick matchups. It deals with the most problematic creatures for us (Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary) while leaving our Tarmogoyfs alone.

I've been considering Chains of Mephistopheles in the board mainly because I want someone to drop Jace and Brainstorm forgetting about it. In theory, it also seems amazing against RUG decks due to the 4x Brainstorm + 4x Ponder they run. Yes, I'm well aware that I may be in danger of too much cool things :)

[Zirath]

I figured the list has been out long enough, and played to an extent I can explain some more card choices. I expected that this deck was good enough to see widespread play if people chose to play it, so I included dismember for the mirror match. Go for the throat was also originally for that purpose in part, but it came down to being less playable than abrupt decay.

I think there was also concern over pernicious deed. This card is probably what makes the deck as consistent as it is. I don't think I have run into the cirumstance where I didn't want it in my deck, or wanting engineered explosives instead. Pernicious deed will destroy pretty much anything but a plainswalker. Pernicious deed is also works well with tombstalker. Most of the time it is the only card left on the board. In my metagame people have started using engineered explosives as a two of in the s/b because of this deck. They also use four spell peirces which should make it more difficult. The deck is so straight forward that it doesn't end up mattering.

Dismember was actually very important. It consistently grew my Shadow into threat range with correct sequencing. I think I would still consider playing Doom Blade/GftT in the board somewhere for the extra spot removal.

There were multiple situations where I got punished for having Pernicious Deed since it wiped my board more than my opponents. Part of this was the fact that I played against two ramp decks (Nic Fit and MUD). I think this is ultimately a metagame issue for me; Pernicious Deed is not good in my metagame for this deck since it hurts me as much as it hurts the decks I am trying to hose.

[jtos84]

Dismember was actually very important. It consistently grew my Shadow into threat range with correct sequencing. I think I would still consider playing Doom Blade/GftT in the board somewhere for the extra spot removal.

There were multiple situations where I got punished for having Pernicious Deed since it wiped my board more than my opponents. Part of this was the fact that I played against two ramp decks (Nic Fit and MUD). I think this is ultimately a metagame issue for me; Pernicious Deed is not good in my metagame for this deck since it hurts me as much as it hurts the decks I am trying to hose.

I was aware of the bad matchups when I made the deck, but when designing tournament level decks you will have to accept that your deck will not destroy every possible deck in format. My metagame is limited, but for the most part it is comprised of high level decks, so the play is normally very good. If your playing in a metagame where you know what will be played, and why certain decks can't succeed in it you will have to make a deck change or a card change for sure. I know a rule of deckbuilding is to not include a card to only fight only one deck.

The games I have played against w/g maverick are completely one sided for either deck. I have been beating the deck pretty one sidedly latley. The virtues ruin would be for death and taxes, and probably for versions of maverick that play black.

[Richard Cheese]

Here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5631-Deck-Red-Death&p=126446&viewfull=1#post126446

I've seen the Red Death thread before, but none of those lists use green. I'm talking about Jund colors, but I hate saying Jund because any time you do, people want to start throwing around Bloodbraid Elfs. The point is really just to add some reach to Eva, since it's light on threats and the major complaint in this thread seems to be "the deck needs another efficient beater". Here's a rough list that I came up with that's had very little testing as an example:


4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Chain Lightning
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Mountain



Decay and Salvage might need to come down to 3-ofs or possibly less to make room for a couple Darkblasts or something. Like I said this is really rough, but hopefully gets my point across.

[jtos84]

I'm not saying the other decks posted here are bad because they are not. They are actually very good, but mayby not for the metagame we are in. There has to be a decent amount of discard because of the amount of combo that is good right now. There are decks like team Italia, and whatever you call maverick with black that can really put the hurt on my deck, but they are somewhat absent from tournaments, so I just don't make adjustments for them.

[Esper3k]

Here's the list I've been fiddling around with:

// Lands
1 [M13] Forest (3)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [5E] Swamp (1)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
4 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
3 [WWK] Death's Shadow
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [NPH] Dismember
2 [DDD] Snuff Out
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [RTR] Grisly Salvage
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 3 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles

Death's Shadow has been good against the tempo decks like RUG, but absolutely abyssmal against combo and control since you simply don't lose life fast enough to grow it to decent size (and when you do, you're already dead). 3 seems fine when you combine it with all the other big dudes in the deck.

Bloodghasts are kind of the opposite - not amazing against aggro / tempo, but great against control. Getting additional value out of Cabal Therapy + Grisly Salvage is always great as well.

Grisly Salvage has been amazing in testing. When you hit a Tombstalker with it, GS nets you 5 cards in your yard on its own. Pretty nuts. With Grisly Salvage, I'd like to see if I can find room for the 4th Tombstalker somewhere (if someone has a suggestion on what to cut, let me know!).

I had actually experimented with Rancor some to get your 'goyfs to punch through other 'goyfs as well as get your Death's Shadows and Tombstalkers trampling over chump blockers. However, I settled on playing the best equipment in Legacy instead.

Snuff Out / Dismember: Really I think this should probably be just 3x Snuff Out. I'm not certain I'm keeping it because I like the split, but with how few black creatures are actually played in Legacy right now and Snuff Out being able to always kill Knights, I think I might go back to 3x and call it a day.

I'd like to fit in 1x Life from the Loam + 1x Volrath's Stronghold somewhere to get more value out of the Grisly Salvages, but I think it might slow the deck down too much.

[Greenpoe]

Bloodghasts are good vs. Control? Say hello to StP/Terminus/Batterskull & Energy Field and/or Rest in Peace. Is it good vs. Nic Fit? Possibly, but unlikely. They'll wipe them with Deeds, happily block with Thragtusks, Vets and Rectors. Oh, and it almost gaurentees they'll side in grave hate for you. Goyf, Stalker, Ghast and Shaman are all dead to a Rest in Peace. I would just remove the Ghasts altogether. If you want something good against control, get more Hymns and more Planeswalkers (Liliana hates on control! T1 Shaman, T2 Liliana is a strong play vs control). Or perhaps uncounterable threats (Thrun).

[Zirath]

Bloodghasts are good vs. Control? Say hello to StP/Terminus/Batterskull & Energy Field and/or Rest in Peace. Oh, and it almost gaurentees they'll side in grave hate for you. Goyf, Stalker, Ghast and Shaman are all dead to a Rest in Peace. I would just remove the Ghasts altogether. If you want something good against control, get more Hymns and more Planeswalkers (Liliana hates on control! T1 Shaman, T2 Liliana is a strong play vs control). Or perhaps uncounterable threats (Thrun).

I'm pretty sure Bloodghasts is the stones against control. Every Swords that it eats is a swords that a real threat doesn't. It also provides tons of inevitability in the late game. Even against Miracles it's fine because Grisly Salvage lets you reset ones that get lost. Once they are below 10, it can always be a problem. Bloodghast also tears through Jace. The engine with Cabal Therapy is also very important.

[Esper3k]

Oh yeah I had forgotten to update the GFTT in my board to Lilianas (they were Diabolic Edicts before, but I'm going to try out Lilianas there tonight).

Bloodghast: Yeah this guy is interesting. While he does get hit by StP / Terminus like every other creature, as Zirath points out, each StP he eats means a Tombstalker or 'Goyf that's not farming. Also, he's pretty nasty as a recurring threat when you have a Jitte out. Again, he really shines when you dump him in your hard off of Grisly Salvage.

Regarding graveyard hate: Of course, the worst card for us is Rest in Peace, which is best graveyard hate card that's ever been printed, imo. However, even against RIP, we have answers to it via Abrupt Decay (and I have 2x Grips in the board as well). Other than RIP, I actually don't worry too much about yard hate. If you have 4 mana and Grisly into a Tombstalker, you can maintain priority and cast the Tombstalker and Delve your yard away before Relics / Crypts can be used against you.

The matchup that I've actually found to be the toughest is TES. Good lord that matchup is just rough. Sadly, unless we're playing blue, there's no way we can really have a decent matchup against every deck.

[whiley85]

I followed the conversation for the last days including the debate about death's shadow and I also see potential in that card.
Jtos list is very solid but when I just saw the idea with bloodghast that might work imo.
Wouldn't it be better to exchange the hymns with therapys instead of IoK?
You get better chances to hit with therapys since the only creature you want to sac for it is ghast, sometimes shaman...

[Esper3k]

I followed the conversation for the last days including the debate about death's shadow and I also see potential in that card.
Jtos list is very solid but when I just saw the idea with bloodghast that might work imo.
Wouldn't it be better to exchange the hymns with therapys instead of IoK?
You get better chances to hit with therapys since the only creature you want to sac for it is ghast, sometimes shaman...

I can certainly see using IoK instead of Hymn to make Therapys even better, but man I really love Hymn to Tourach :)

The positive of Hymn is that it can hit lands in their hand, which combined with Wasteland (and Sinkhole if you're running it), helps with our plan of tempoing them out or at least disrupting them long enough for our guys to get there.

I think I'll play around with it though. Maybe go -3 Hymn, +2 IoK, +1 Cabal Therapy from my current list.

[Zirath]

Perhaps this configuration:

1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Bayou

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodghast
3 Death's Shadow
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Snuff Out
4 Grisly Salvage

I don't actually see the need for Jitte MD since it's usually just a mana sink. This also gives you 16 discard spells effectively, which I think can handle the TES match up much better.

Death's Shadow has a really easy time bullying almost all the other creature decks. Even Batterskull has trouble with him.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I have been a little iffy on Jittes main, but it's also been one of those cards that just dominates the board once you get a swing or two in (as well as makes your Bloodghasts very threatening).

The 1-of Forest has occasionally been a pain in my ass (ie, when you open with Forest, Wasteland) but it really shines against decks like RUG.

One interesting point about cutting Hymns for more 1 mana discard is it's also lowering the amount of BB spells we have, which again makes the deck's manabase much more resilient (we can now fetch out Swamp, Forest without suffering as much).

[KobeBryan]

Yeah I have been a little iffy on Jittes main, but it's also been one of those cards that just dominates the board once you get a swing or two in (as well as makes your Bloodghasts very threatening).

The 1-of Forest has occasionally been a pain in my ass (ie, when you open with Forest, Wasteland) but it really shines against decks like RUG.

One interesting point about cutting Hymns for more 1 mana discard is it's also lowering the amount of BB spells we have, which again makes the deck's manabase much more resilient (we can now fetch out Swamp, Forest without suffering as much).

Ya you gotta have that lone forest in there to prevent mana screw

Does Death shadow work that well? I find it underwhelming until i get to about 10 life.

[whiley85]

DS is overwhelming against every aggro deck that is trying to race you. It turns the game to your favor for B.
If it sticks and the chance is very high due to your disruption package the combat steps are very interesting.
No one wants to attack cause in most cases the dmg returns for lethal.

If playing bloodghast I can imagine to run one und. paradise.
With multiple ghasts in the yard it could be even worth it to take a land with grisly salvage.

[Zirath]

Ya you gotta have that lone forest in there to prevent mana screw

Does Death shadow work that well? I find it underwhelming until i get to about 10 life.

I have been pleasantly surprised by how strong Shadow is against aggro decks. It was only not great against Nic Fit. Otherwise it was critical in staying alive and then turning the game around in many match ups, even against the red decks.

[jtos84]

I have already considered most of the changes you guys have mentioned excpet for grizzly salvage. I may test that out toight. I was seriously considering bloodghast, but I lacked metagame knowledge until last night. Starcity Games released a legacy metagame report.

Bloodghast plus cabal therapy probably has a lot of potential for wins, but those are two cards I ony have experience playing against not with. I had also considered Lilliana of the Veil, after playing against it. That card is just hard to play against. The changes I am going to test today are going to be three nantuko shades in the place of enginered plague, and also Lilliana of the veils. I am not experienced with this planeswalker. Does anyone know what it is the best against?

I think our worst matchup is probably esper stoneblade. There is a certain build that has the advantage I would say. The other versions are 50/50, but the good version is the one I see played the most. Thats why I am trying out the shades today. I don't think Lilliana would shine in the matchup because it is very difficult to keep any creatures in play. The shades may also do well in the merfolk and goblin matchup. I think it may be safe to cut the the plagues because goblins is played much more than merfolk, and our matchup with goblins is already fairly good. Grizzly salvage seems interesting. After I try out the shades I will throw a couple of those in the deck. I am just worried I will see half of the creatures in the deck fall into the graveyard.

[Esper3k]

I have already considered most of the changes you guys have mentioned excpet for grizzly salvage. I may test that out toight. I was seriously considering bloodghast, but I lacked metagame knowledge until last night. Starcity Games released a legacy metagame report.

Bloodghast plus cabal therapy probably has a lot of potential for wins, but those are two cards I ony have experience playing against not with. I had also considered Lilliana of the Veil, after playing against it. That card is just hard to play against. The changes I am going to test today are going to be three nantuko shades in the place of enginered plague, and also Lilliana of the veils. I am not experienced with this planeswalker. Does anyone know what it is the best against?

I think our worst matchup is probably esper stoneblade. There is a certain build that has the advantage I would say. The other versions are 50/50, but the good version is the one I see played the most. Thats why I am trying out the shades today. I don't think Lilliana would shine in the matchup because it is very difficult to keep any creatures in play. The shades may also do well in the merfolk and goblin matchup. I think it may be safe to cut the the plagues because goblins is played much more than merfolk, and our matchup with goblins is already fairly good. Grizzly salvage seems interesting. After I try out the shades I will throw a couple of those in the deck. I am just worried I will see half of the creatures in the deck fall into the graveyard.

Regarding Liliana: Liliana's biggest strength is that she's decent against every type of deck. Her drawback is that she doesn't really shine against any single deck type in particular, she's kind of slow, and she isn't a win condition on her own. Here's my experience with her vs the different archetypes: Aggro - She's probably the worst here against fast swarming decks. Against fast aggro, she's slow and they can sacrifice their smaller dudes to protect their bigger ones. On top of that since they dump their hand so quickly, her +1 ability isn't very useful. Aggro/Control: If you can get her down she's great. Getting her down is the problem since they'll be Daze/Spell Piercing her and she'll grow their 'goyfs when she gets countered. Control: She's powerful because she eats at their hand as well as being a Planeswalker is naturally difficult for control decks to deal with. She won't fight Jace on her own, so you'll need more pressure to back her up.

I think our worst matchup is fast combo. Post board, we can bring in cards like Choke which absolutely wreck Esper Stoneblade. Against fast combo, they can just naturally kill us through our hand disruption by just having a fast hand or protecting their goodies with Brainstorm.

Oh, I've been testing some this afternoon and have been having an abysmally bad time G1 against Caleb Durward's version of the RIP/Helm deck (his list combines it with 4x Terminus and 1x Entreat). Post board, it's not so bad but G1 was really rough because we have so many dead cards against them (Snuff Out/Dismember, Death's Shadow).

[Esper3k]

Here's a new sideboard I'm going to be testing at a tournament tonight:

SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

I wanted to give Mongoose a spin for the control matchups where Tombstalker and Death's Shadow just aren't good. We'll see how it goes.

[jtos84]

The major problem with streamlining decks like this is the lack of experienced players to test with. I know of a lot people who play , but will not be willing to spend the time playing a slow control deck for like five matches for your benefit. I beat a deck very similiar to the rip helm combo deck your talking about round one of the last tournament I made top 4 in. I think it had every card except the helm. I took game one. Game two I won because I maelstrom pulsed jace, and then I used a pernicious deed to destroy a humilty and a detention sphere that had two of my deathrite shamans. Deathrite shaman is probably the best card we have for slow control.

Those are more reasons why I am probably going to use nantuko shade in the s/b. I'm not very fond of keeping death's shadow in the deck game two with esperstoneblade, or helm combo. I am unsure about using choke. That card gets countered so fast its rediculous. If I take out the angels of despair, I am then relying on beating omnitell with discard and surgical extraction. This could be worth it. I guess I will make that change and run it in the next trial tomorrow.

The new s/b your using looks interesting. I have considered nimble mongoose, and it may be a good solution. Angel of despair is meant for one deck, and I guess that is against the deck building principles I read about.

[KobeBryan]

Here's a new sideboard I'm going to be testing at a tournament tonight:

SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

I wanted to give Mongoose a spin for the control matchups where Tombstalker and Death's Shadow just aren't good. We'll see how it goes.

May i suggest running Engineered plague. I dont' know your meta, but based on SCG results, goblins, merfolk and maverick will usually come up. I mean virtue's ruin is good, you can also use EP for that same purpose against maverick.

[Esper3k]

May i suggest running Engineered plague. I dont' know your meta, but based on SCG results, goblins, merfolk and maverick will usually come up. I mean virtue's ruin is good, you can also use EP for that same purpose against maverick.

That's fair - I guess if I kill all the Moms with an ePlague the rest of my removal can take out any Knights.

[KobeBryan]

That's fair - I guess if I kill all the Moms with an ePlague the rest of my removal can take out any Knights.

you dont' only kill the moms...you kill hierachs, you kill thalia. Its like 1/3 of their threats.

[jtos84]

You can do something similiar against esperstoneblade. When I got second with the deck five years ago I was using the plague in ruoghly half of the matches because I had never played the deck before. I happened to notice the first to win game one against me was using many creatures of the same type, so I boarded in the engineered plagues, and it won the match.

Against decks like esper stonelbade I thought nantuko shade may be a better solution because it can't be spell peirced. I played against merfolk yesterday, and I would have won the match, but it was really late and the final play I cast tarmogoyf, instead of tombstalker in the face of coralhelm commander because I forgot it will gain flying. That was the difference, so it went to game three. Game three I think I had to mulligan, and then it came to one color land, and two wastlands, so I could'nt cast anything.

Has anyone else played any versions of the deck in a tournament yet?

[Qweerios]

I brewed this peculiar Eva Green/Living Dead Girl list the other day... it's quite impressive, I highly suggest it.


Creatures (28)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vengevine

Spells (12)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Buried Alive
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
4 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Darkblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize

[jtos84]

There was a b/g smallpox deck that placed first in a magic league trial in the last month I think. It had the same general idea. Builds like that surely have potential, but I havn't played small pox for so many years that I can't give much reliable information. How has the deck done in the Legacy metagame. I am interested in those builds. Some of my favorite decks are walking dead, and smallpox, but I don't play either of them. Can you describe your matchups, so we can get some insight into what playing your deck is like? I would be interested to read it.

I won another small legacy trial today. I went 6-0 in games played. It was a twelve man single elimination again. I played doomsday round one, and I eliminated essential components of the five card stacks that were created both games. After doomsday was played in game one I destroyed the volcanic island, so the storm count was not going to be sufficient. In game two I destroyed the same land again I think, and I was waiting with an abrupt decay to destroy the sensie's diving top upon activation so that it could not be recast for storm count. That was an interesting match up. Doomsday is a deck I would like to learn how to play.

Round two was against Rug delver. Game one my opponent mulliganed to four or five which is never good. I ended up drawing all four death's shadows so game one was basically card advantage. Game two was uneventful with tarmogoyf attacking with an equiped jitte. I thought my opponent was waitng for me to activate my fetchland to submerge my tarmogoyf, so I did not activate it and swung for lethal eventually. I had a very good hand, but I wasn't going to risk using the fetch to play it.

Round three I recieved a bye.

Round four was against mud. I think that is how it is classified. It is the deck that using mana excel to cast huge artifact creatures like wurmcoil engine and blightsteel colossus. Game one I opened with one land and mostly discard which ended up being fortunate. I stripped nearly the entire hand by turn four. I don't remember which creature won. It may have been a tarmogoyf. Game two was close. Both games I relied on destroying the mana excel. In game two I used some discard to get the wurmcoil engine and the metal worker. I thought I would just keep swinging, but the opponent drew another metal worker and cast the other wurmcoil engine. I drew a pernicious deed with a 5/6 tarmogoyf in play. I decided to attack and sacrifice the pernicious deed on zero to kill the engine. The next turn I drew a snuff out and killed the token with lifelink. The next two draws were tombstalkers and I cast them both. Life totals were both very low so it was close. In game one I was also able to destroy the chalice on two with an abrupt decay which helped.

I decided to use my normal s/b minus one angel of despair and plus one engineered explosives. I do not think the chokes are going to be very beneficial for this deck. When playing against esperstoneblade the early success came with two engineered explosives in the s.b. That is why I returned the numer to two. Choke isn't going to be the deciding card agianst our blue matches because this deck is not uing a typical strategy.

[Esper3k]

Went 3-0-1 in the Legacy Challenge here at SCG Ft. Worth (beat Bg Loam/Dark Depths, Eldrazipost, UW RIP). Hope Eva continues to put out for me today!

[KobeBryan]

Went 3-0-1 in the Legacy Challenge here at SCG Ft. Worth (beat Bg Loam/Dark Depths, Eldrazipost, UW RIP). Hope Eva continues to put out for me today!

wow...brave man for bringing eva to scg.

good luck. post decklist and report.

[Esper3k]

wow...brave man for bringing eva to scg.

good luck. post decklist and report.

Just lost a feature match (not on camera) to Hive Mind in r3. 2-1 now, doh.

[whiley85]

Nice result! Did you play with ghasts/therapies?

[Esper3k]

4-1 right now. Hope I can keep it up.

Yes, I'm playing Ghasts and Therapies.

[Esper3k]

Hah another feature match, another loss. Destroyed by Belcher through my hand disruption, heh

[KobeBryan]

saw your decklist.

I think your sideboard should have been -2 chains, -2 lillianas, for +4 hymn. That would of helped against your belcher matchup and control matchups.

How was death shadow. I'm not sold on it.

I'm awaiting your feedback

[Esper3k]

So here's my tournament report for SCG Fort Worth.

The last couple of months, I had been playing the Shardless BUG deck intending to play it at SCG St. Louis, SCG Fort Worth, and GP Denver. However, at SCG St. Louis last week, I was disappointed with my performance with Shardless BUG and decided to give the Eva Green list I had been working on a spin. While I'm not usually a proponent of taking a deck you're not familiar with to a large tournament (if you intend to do well), I wasn't actually wasn't stressing about doing well in Fort Worth and decided I wanted to just have fun. Eva Green was the first Legacy deck I truly fell in love with and I've been playing variants of it on and off over the years. I borrow a Guru Forest from my buddy to further pimp out my basics (to go along with 2 Guru Swamps and a foil Unhinged Swamp) and we're off to the races!

I ended up going 3-0-1 at the Legacy Challenge on Saturday (split in the last round) and I was pretty happy with how Eva felt.

Here's my list (what was cool is that SCG got the name right!):

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50705

Please forgive my sideboarding - I don't remember exactly what I did each round and I'm just going off of memory here.

There were 170 or so players, so 8 rounds of Swiss.

Round 1 - Collin (Burn)

Game 1: I win the die roll and mull to 6 looking for a decent hand. I T1 IoK, seeing Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Rift Bolt x 2, Ash Zealot, and Fireblast. Fuck. Over the course of the game, I draw more hand disruption, but only draw Bloodghasts as my creatures until I stabilize at 3 life with him having no cards in hand. Of course, being against Burn, it's only a matter of time until he draws a live spell and I die.

-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Bloodghast
+3 Nimble Mongoose
+2 Phyrexian Revoker (for Grim Lavamancers and just to have a body out there)

Game 2: I T1 blind Cabal Therapy away a Flame Rift (I named it because I wanted to hit what I thought was the most likely 4 damage spell played as a 4-of). He has Barbarian Ring, Price of Progress (go basics!), Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning, and Ash Zealot in his hand. This time I'm able to stabilize at 10 life with an early Tarmogoyf for his dudes after I strip out much of his hand then a Death's Shadow seals the deal.

Game 3: He leads off with a T1 Figure of Destiny into T2 Goblin Guide, ouch. My T1 Deathrite Shaman eats a Lightning Bolt and when he Hellsparks me, I eat 7 and drop to 9. However, I have a Death's Shadow and double Abrupt Decay to blow him out when he unearths the Hellspark and attacks with his team. I start Cabal Therapying him and see that he's got only lands and start attacking back with the Death's Shadow and a Nimble Mongoose. On the last turn, I'm at 6 life, Therapy to see he's got no more burn left, then drop the Overgrown Tomb (paying 2 life) to grow the Death's Shadow to lethal levels.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 - Chris (The Gate)

We're both sad at having to face similar decks so early, but them's the breaks!

Game 1: Chris double Hymns me, drops Liliana, then Vampire Nighthawk + SoLS and I'm never really in the game at all.

-3 Snuff Out
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Liliana of the Veil

Game 2: This time, I aggro him out with hand disruption, Tarmogoyfs, and a Tombstalker. He tries to make a race of it with a Nighthawk and Gatekeepers, but I get down a Jitte and attack in the same turn while Nighthawk is tapped out and the Jitte just does what Jitte does when left unchecked.

Game 3: My T1 Cabal Therapy whiffs, but sees double Liliana and Nevinyrral's Disk so on T2, I have to drop a Tarmogoyf and use it to flashback Cabal Therapy to get his Lilianas. I Grisly Salvage into a Tombstalker, drop a Liliana of my own to kill his Nighthawk then start beating. He eventually gets to 4 mana to drop his Disk to clear the board, but I have more guys plus Liliana even through his second Disk.

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3 - Andy (Hive Mind)

This match is an off camera feature match, which seems to bode ill for me throughout the tournament.

Game 1: I Inquisition (I lead off with Inquisition instead of Deathrite because I see him T1, Island, Preordain) him seeing Intuition x 2, Show & Tell, Scalding Tarn, Hive Mind x 2 (I take Show & Tell). I drop a Deathrite Shaman and draw a Cabal Therapy when he Intuitions for Show & Tell. I make a mistake that ends up costing me the game when I eat an Intuition, then Show & Tell with Deathrite Shaman. I Cabal Therapy away the Show & Tell he Intuition'd for, then flash it back to take his Hive Minds away. My punt comes in when he Intuitions for Emrakul, shuffles his yard back in, then draws another Intuition for Show & Tells. If I had been thinking and eaten 2 Show & Tells with the Deathrite, I would've likely have locked him out of the game here (or at least shut off the Intuition for Show & Tell plan). As is, I get killed by the mighty Spaghetti Monster.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Choke
+2 Phyrexian Revoker (for Grim Monolith)
+2 Lilana of the Veil
+1 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I disrupt him some, but it's not enough and he drops Hive Mind + Pact of the Titan. Sadly, if I had one more mana source, I would've actually been able to pay for it due to Deathrite Shaman!

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 - Harold (High Tide)

Game 1: I'm on the play and T1 Inquisition him, seeing Turnabout, Time Spiral x 2, Flusterstorm, Island, Scalding Tarn. Doh. However... I have Cabal Therapy next turn for the Time Spirals! I also draw a Deathrite Shaman and start eating away his Time Spirals (no getting them back for you, sir!). This game is super awkward as he is constantly unable to find any gas while I Grisly Salvage 3 times and whiff on creatures all 3 times (having to get fetch lands). What is also super awkward is I deal myself 8 points of damage through fetchlands + Overgrown Tomb to be able to drop the Death's Shadow I opened with as a 1/1! A Thoughtseize in there grows him to a 3/3 (nice Wild Nacatl!), but the Shadow + a Bloodghast + Deathrite Shaman constantly eating the yard is enough to steal the game.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bloodghast
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles (This is hilarious against Time Spiral!)
+2 Choke
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Extirpate

Game 2: I lead off with Deathrite then Therapy him, seeing Flusterstorm, Misty Rainforest, Turnabout, High Tide, Force of Will, Pact of Negation. I play around Flusterstorm with my Grisly Salvages and Salvage into a Bloodghast. Sadly, I forget to play around Flusterstorm when I flash it back as I get too excited at having drawn an Extirpate. Doh. Bloodghast and Deathrite start picking away at him while Tarmogoyf joins the party. Harold is stuck on 3 lands when he's forced to High Tide into Turnabout on my turn to keep from dying. My Extirpate on High Tide in response to Turnabout seals the match for me.

3-1 (6-4)

Round 5 - Robert (BUG Nic Fit)

Robert is one of the Houston local area players, but I haven't seen him play this deck before (although I saw it when he was on camera in R4).

His deck is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50681

Game 1: I Thoughtseize him and he Brainstorms in response... and I see a hand of only lands. Nice. Of course he hid a Baleful Strix on top, which draws him into a second Strix (which I nabbed with Inquisition). He gets down a Scavenging Ooze, which I Snuff Out and allows me to play a Death's Shadow. The Death's Shadow beats on him some before Robert plays a Veteran Explorer and I EOT Snuff that Out too, growing DS to scary proportions. The extra lands allow me to Grisly Salvage into a Tarmogoyf and he trades his Baleful Strix for my Death's Shadow. My Deathrite Shaman has been working overtime and he's at 9 life when he plays a Consecrated Sphinx. EoT, I drain him to 5 and he draws to more cards on my draw step. However, my draw is Grisly Salvage and I salvage into Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Deathrite Shaman. I take the Deathrite and play it. He draws a blank and I EoT drain him to 3, then kill him on my upkeep with both Deathrites.

I don't really remember what I sideboarded here. I do remember bringing in Revokers and Lilianas.

Game 2: He mulls to 5 but it's an amazing one when he goes T2 Strix into T3 Shardless Agent cascading into Thoughtseize to take my Liliana that was coming down next turn. Ouch. I Snuff Out the Agent and drop double Bloodghasts, which start beating him down. I land a 'goyf but it trades with the Strix (no surprise). He gets out a Scavenging Ooze, which eats another Snuff Out and my Bloodghasts continue their assault. I land down a Tombstalker and he has to dig and tap out to Jace bounce it. Bloodghasts kill Jace and hit him and I slam down a Choke to lock the game up.

4-1 (8-4)

Round 6 - Kyrie (Belcher)

Another off camera feature match. I knew what Kyrie was playing and I knew I was in trouble.

Game 1: I'm on the draw (ugh) and mull down to a 1 land hand but has 2 disruption spells and a Deathrite. I T1 disrupt, T2 disrupt, T3 drop Deathrite (still not seeing any more lands) and she draws EtW on this turn and Empties for 10 Goblins. My Shaman tries to keep me alive by eating Street Wraiths out of the yard and I get down a Tarmogoyf, but it's still not enough and the little green men feast on my corpse.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Extirpate
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Chains

Game 2: I turn 1 IoK seeing Gitaxian Probe x 3, EtW, Manamorphose, Pyretic Ritual, and Land Grant. I take the Land Grant. On Kyrie's turn, she Probes me 3x, draws into the 4th Probe, plays Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox (imprinting Pyretic Ritual), Manamorphoses into Desparate Ritual, Seething Song, then Empties for 20. Yeah, I didn't get there.

4-2 (8-6)

Round 7 - Eugene (Merfolk)

Eugene is my friend and we drove up from Houston together, doh! I know his list since I helped him build it the previous night and he of course knows what I'm on as well.

Here's his list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50718

Game 1: I mull to 6 and keep a hand with fetch land, Wasteland, double Tarmogoyf, IoK, Tombstalker. Eugene drops an Island and passes. I fetch a Bayou and IoK, but he Dazes. He then drops a Wasteland on my Bayou and I'm stuck as I don't draw another colored mana source for about 4 turns. In the meantime, Eugene drops Aether Vial, Standstill and starts chaining Standstills when I finally can drop 'Goyfs. 5 lords later, I'm very very dead.

I don't remember what I sideboarded - I don't have much for the Merfolk matchup. I figured he'd be bringing in Relics from the board so I brought in the Chains to slow down Adepts/Chains/Standstills.

Game 2: I get down a T2 Chains which makes his Adepts and Relic not very good. Engineered Plague on Merfolk then killing the only Lord he has out pretty much shuts him out of the game.

Game 3: I T1 IoK and see Silvergill Adept x2, Lord of Atlantis. Ugh. I take the Lord. He Adepts into Adept... into Adept into Reejerey. I get down a Tombstalker, but he has more lords to keep tapping him while swinging with Adepts and Mutavault and I quickly get swarmed down.

4-3 (9-8)

Round 8 - Anthony (Affinity)

Winner of this will make T64 and get in the money!

Game 1: Anthony mulls to 6 and keeps a hand with Master of Etherium, Tezzeret, Onithopter, Memnite, Signal Pest, Mox Opal. I know this because I'm on the play and I T1 Thoughtseize away his Opal. He rips a Blinkmoth Nexus and drops the Memnite, Signal Pest, and Signal Pest. I make a mistake and kill the Pest with an Abrupt Decay which costs me the match since he rips land, then Cranial Plating on his next two draws. Oops.

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Bloodghast
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Engineered Plague
+3 Nimble Mongoose (I just need bodies to get in the way)

Game 2: This time, I conservatively save my removal for things that matter and my Phyrexian Revoker on Cranial Plating saves my ass since he has 3x Vault Skirges out. I drop Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and my massively larger dudes crush the smaller robots.

Game 3: He gets out an early Etched Champion, but I have a Tombstalker to race in the air. Things get really bad for him when I Jitte/equip/swing all in the same turn. Jitte dominates the board and my demon with an equipment wins over the top of his double Etched Champions.

5-3 (11-9)

Overall not a great performance, but it was good enough for 40th place and $50.

Some thoughts:

- Death's Shadow: As expected, he was great against the creature decks, horrible against combo/control. Of course, it would've been nice if I had faced RUG at all, but I also had conversely dodged UW RIP all day too.
- Bloodghast: Kind of the opposite from Death's Shadow as he's really good against control, ok against combo, and horrible against aggro.

-Grisly Salvage: This card was amazing for me all day. It grew the hell out of my Tarmogoyfs, Thresh'd Mongooses like crazy, and of course the EoT Grisly Salvage into Tombstalker (GS into Tombstalker nets you 5 cards in the yard so you only need 1 more card to be able to cast TS) is the nuts. In the future, I may like to have more utility creatures like Revokers in the sideboard to get more tutoring value out of Salvage.
-Deathrite Shaman: This guy was also an MVP for me all day. Just slowly picking away at your opponent's life total gives Eva the reach we've been looking for. Plus, the life loss gets around Energy Field. I heard him described as Bird of Lavamancer and that's what he felt like to me. Time to get my foil playset.

-Chains: Cute, but that was about what it would be as I expected. Probably should be something else.
-Nimble Mongoose: In the Legacy Challenge, I faced off against UW and Mongoose played out how I expected (amazingly). When boarding against UW, you're also taking out Death's Shadow and Tombstalker (Tombstalker is pretty bad against that deck), so Mongoose + Revoker gives you more guys to fill in the creature slots.

[KobeBryan]

So here's my tournament report for SCG Fort Worth.

The last couple of months, I had been playing the Shardless BUG deck intending to play it at SCG St. Louis, SCG Fort Worth, and GP Denver. However, at SCG St. Louis last week, I was disappointed with my performance with Shardless BUG and decided to give the Eva Green list I had been working on a spin. While I'm not usually a proponent of taking a deck you're not familiar with to a large tournament (if you intend to do well), I wasn't actually wasn't stressing about doing well in Fort Worth and decided I wanted to just have fun. Eva Green was the first Legacy deck I truly fell in love with and I've been playing variants of it on and off over the years. I borrow a Guru Forest from my buddy to further pimp out my basics (to go along with 2 Guru Swamps and a foil Unhinged Swamp) and we're off to the races!

I ended up going 3-0-1 at the Legacy Challenge on Saturday (split in the last round) and I was pretty happy with how Eva felt.

Here's my list (what was cool is that SCG got the name right!):

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50705

Please forgive my sideboarding - I don't remember exactly what I did each round and I'm just going off of memory here.

There were 170 or so players, so 8 rounds of Swiss.

Round 1 - Collin (Burn)

Game 1: I win the die roll and mull to 6 looking for a decent hand. I T1 IoK, seeing Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Rift Bolt x 2, Ash Zealot, and Fireblast. Fuck. Over the course of the game, I draw more hand disruption, but only draw Bloodghasts as my creatures until I stabilize at 3 life with him having no cards in hand. Of course, being against Burn, it's only a matter of time until he draws a live spell and I die.

-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Bloodghast
+3 Nimble Mongoose
+2 Phyrexian Revoker (for Grim Lavamancers and just to have a body out there)

Game 2: I T1 blind Cabal Therapy away a Flame Rift (I named it because I wanted to hit what I thought was the most likely 4 damage spell played as a 4-of). He has Barbarian Ring, Price of Progress (go basics!), Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning, and Ash Zealot in his hand. This time I'm able to stabilize at 10 life with an early Tarmogoyf for his dudes after I strip out much of his hand then a Death's Shadow seals the deal.

Game 3: He leads off with a T1 Figure of Destiny into T2 Goblin Guide, ouch. My T1 Deathrite Shaman eats a Lightning Bolt and when he Hellsparks me, I eat 7 and drop to 9. However, I have a Death's Shadow and double Abrupt Decay to blow him out when he unearths the Hellspark and attacks with his team. I start Cabal Therapying him and see that he's got only lands and start attacking back with the Death's Shadow and a Nimble Mongoose. On the last turn, I'm at 6 life, Therapy to see he's got no more burn left, then drop the Overgrown Tomb (paying 2 life) to grow the Death's Shadow to lethal levels.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 - Chris (The Gate)

We're both sad at having to face similar decks so early, but them's the breaks!

Game 1: Chris double Hymns me, drops Liliana, then Vampire Nighthawk + SoLS and I'm never really in the game at all.

-3 Snuff Out
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Liliana of the Veil

Game 2: This time, I aggro him out with hand disruption, Tarmogoyfs, and a Tombstalker. He tries to make a race of it with a Nighthawk and Gatekeepers, but I get down a Jitte and attack in the same turn while Nighthawk is tapped out and the Jitte just does what Jitte does when left unchecked.

Game 3: My T1 Cabal Therapy whiffs, but sees double Liliana and Nevinyrral's Disk so on T2, I have to drop a Tarmogoyf and use it to flashback Cabal Therapy to get his Lilianas. I Grisly Salvage into a Tombstalker, drop a Liliana of my own to kill his Nighthawk then start beating. He eventually gets to 4 mana to drop his Disk to clear the board, but I have more guys plus Liliana even through his second Disk.

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3 - Andy (Hive Mind)

This match is an off camera feature match, which seems to bode ill for me throughout the tournament.

Game 1: I Inquisition (I lead off with Inquisition instead of Deathrite because I see him T1, Island, Preordain) him seeing Intuition x 2, Show & Tell, Scalding Tarn, Hive Mind x 2 (I take Show & Tell). I drop a Deathrite Shaman and draw a Cabal Therapy when he Intuitions for Show & Tell. I make a mistake that ends up costing me the game when I eat an Intuition, then Show & Tell with Deathrite Shaman. I Cabal Therapy away the Show & Tell he Intuition'd for, then flash it back to take his Hive Minds away. My punt comes in when he Intuitions for Emrakul, shuffles his yard back in, then draws another Intuition for Show & Tells. If I had been thinking and eaten 2 Show & Tells with the Deathrite, I would've likely have locked him out of the game here (or at least shut off the Intuition for Show & Tell plan). As is, I get killed by the mighty Spaghetti Monster.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Choke
+2 Phyrexian Revoker (for Grim Monolith)
+2 Lilana of the Veil
+1 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I disrupt him some, but it's not enough and he drops Hive Mind + Pact of the Titan. Sadly, if I had one more mana source, I would've actually been able to pay for it due to Deathrite Shaman!

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 - Harold (High Tide)

Game 1: I'm on the play and T1 Inquisition him, seeing Turnabout, Time Spiral x 2, Flusterstorm, Island, Scalding Tarn. Doh. However... I have Cabal Therapy next turn for the Time Spirals! I also draw a Deathrite Shaman and start eating away his Time Spirals (no getting them back for you, sir!). This game is super awkward as he is constantly unable to find any gas while I Grisly Salvage 3 times and whiff on creatures all 3 times (having to get fetch lands). What is also super awkward is I deal myself 8 points of damage through fetchlands + Overgrown Tomb to be able to drop the Death's Shadow I opened with as a 1/1! A Thoughtseize in there grows him to a 3/3 (nice Wild Nacatl!), but the Shadow + a Bloodghast + Deathrite Shaman constantly eating the yard is enough to steal the game.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bloodghast
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles (This is hilarious against Time Spiral!)
+2 Choke
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Extirpate

Game 2: I lead off with Deathrite then Therapy him, seeing Flusterstorm, Misty Rainforest, Turnabout, High Tide, Force of Will, Pact of Negation. I play around Flusterstorm with my Grisly Salvages and Salvage into a Bloodghast. Sadly, I forget to play around Flusterstorm when I flash it back as I get too excited at having drawn an Extirpate. Doh. Bloodghast and Deathrite start picking away at him while Tarmogoyf joins the party. Harold is stuck on 3 lands when he's forced to High Tide into Turnabout on my turn to keep from dying. My Extirpate on High Tide in response to Turnabout seals the match for me.

3-1 (6-4)

Round 5 - Robert (BUG Nic Fit)

Robert is one of the Houston local area players, but I haven't seen him play this deck before (although I saw it when he was on camera in R4).

His deck is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50681

Game 1: I Thoughtseize him and he Brainstorms in response... and I see a hand of only lands. Nice. Of course he hid a Baleful Strix on top, which draws him into a second Strix (which I nabbed with Inquisition). He gets down a Scavenging Ooze, which I Snuff Out and allows me to play a Death's Shadow. The Death's Shadow beats on him some before Robert plays a Veteran Explorer and I EOT Snuff that Out too, growing DS to scary proportions. The extra lands allow me to Grisly Salvage into a Tarmogoyf and he trades his Baleful Strix for my Death's Shadow. My Deathrite Shaman has been working overtime and he's at 9 life when he plays a Consecrated Sphinx. EoT, I drain him to 5 and he draws to more cards on my draw step. However, my draw is Grisly Salvage and I salvage into Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Deathrite Shaman. I take the Deathrite and play it. He draws a blank and I EoT drain him to 3, then kill him on my upkeep with both Deathrites.

I don't really remember what I sideboarded here. I do remember bringing in Revokers and Lilianas.

Game 2: He mulls to 5 but it's an amazing one when he goes T2 Strix into T3 Shardless Agent cascading into Thoughtseize to take my Liliana that was coming down next turn. Ouch. I Snuff Out the Agent and drop double Bloodghasts, which start beating him down. I land a 'goyf but it trades with the Strix (no surprise). He gets out a Scavenging Ooze, which eats another Snuff Out and my Bloodghasts continue their assault. I land down a Tombstalker and he has to dig and tap out to Jace bounce it. Bloodghasts kill Jace and hit him and I slam down a Choke to lock the game up.

4-1 (8-4)

Round 6 - Kyrie (Belcher)

Another off camera feature match. I knew what Kyrie was playing and I knew I was in trouble.

Game 1: I'm on the draw (ugh) and mull down to a 1 land hand but has 2 disruption spells and a Deathrite. I T1 disrupt, T2 disrupt, T3 drop Deathrite (still not seeing any more lands) and she draws EtW on this turn and Empties for 10 Goblins. My Shaman tries to keep me alive by eating Street Wraiths out of the yard and I get down a Tarmogoyf, but it's still not enough and the little green men feast on my corpse.

-3 Death's Shadow
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Extirpate
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Chains

Game 2: I turn 1 IoK seeing Gitaxian Probe x 3, EtW, Manamorphose, Pyretic Ritual, and Land Grant. I take the Land Grant. On Kyrie's turn, she Probes me 3x, draws into the 4th Probe, plays Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox (imprinting Pyretic Ritual), Manamorphoses into Desparate Ritual, Seething Song, then Empties for 20. Yeah, I didn't get there.

4-2 (8-6)

Round 7 - Eugene (Merfolk)

Eugene is my friend and we drove up from Houston together, doh! I know his list since I helped him build it the previous night and he of course knows what I'm on as well.

Here's his list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50718

Game 1: I mull to 6 and keep a hand with fetch land, Wasteland, double Tarmogoyf, IoK, Tombstalker. Eugene drops an Island and passes. I fetch a Bayou and IoK, but he Dazes. He then drops a Wasteland on my Bayou and I'm stuck as I don't draw another colored mana source for about 4 turns. In the meantime, Eugene drops Aether Vial, Standstill and starts chaining Standstills when I finally can drop 'Goyfs. 5 lords later, I'm very very dead.

I don't remember what I sideboarded - I don't have much for the Merfolk matchup. I figured he'd be bringing in Relics from the board so I brought in the Chains to slow down Adepts/Chains/Standstills.

Game 2: I get down a T2 Chains which makes his Adepts and Relic not very good. Engineered Plague on Merfolk then killing the only Lord he has out pretty much shuts him out of the game.

Game 3: I T1 IoK and see Silvergill Adept x2, Lord of Atlantis. Ugh. I take the Lord. He Adepts into Adept... into Adept into Reejerey. I get down a Tombstalker, but he has more lords to keep tapping him while swinging with Adepts and Mutavault and I quickly get swarmed down.

4-3 (9-8)

Round 8 - Anthony (Affinity)

Winner of this will make T64 and get in the money!

Game 1: Anthony mulls to 6 and keeps a hand with Master of Etherium, Tezzeret, Onithopter, Memnite, Signal Pest, Mox Opal. I know this because I'm on the play and I T1 Thoughtseize away his Opal. He rips a Blinkmoth Nexus and drops the Memnite, Signal Pest, and Signal Pest. I make a mistake and kill the Pest with an Abrupt Decay which costs me the match since he rips land, then Cranial Plating on his next two draws. Oops.

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Bloodghast
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Engineered Plague
+3 Nimble Mongoose (I just need bodies to get in the way)

Game 2: This time, I conservatively save my removal for things that matter and my Phyrexian Revoker on Cranial Plating saves my ass since he has 3x Vault Skirges out. I drop Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and my massively larger dudes crush the smaller robots.

Game 3: He gets out an early Etched Champion, but I have a Tombstalker to race in the air. Things get really bad for him when I Jitte/equip/swing all in the same turn. Jitte dominates the board and my demon with an equipment wins over the top of his double Etched Champions.

5-3 (11-9)

Overall not a great performance, but it was good enough for 40th place and $50.

Some thoughts:

- Death's Shadow: As expected, he was great against the creature decks, horrible against combo/control. Of course, it would've been nice if I had faced RUG at all, but I also had conversely dodged UW RIP all day too.
- Bloodghast: Kind of the opposite from Death's Shadow as he's really good against control, ok against combo, and horrible against aggro.

-Grisly Salvage: This card was amazing for me all day. It grew the hell out of my Tarmogoyfs, Thresh'd Mongooses like crazy, and of course the EoT Grisly Salvage into Tombstalker (GS into Tombstalker nets you 5 cards in the yard so you only need 1 more card to be able to cast TS) is the nuts. In the future, I may like to have more utility creatures like Revokers in the sideboard to get more tutoring value out of Salvage.
-Deathrite Shaman: This guy was also an MVP for me all day. Just slowly picking away at your opponent's life total gives Eva the reach we've been looking for. Plus, the life loss gets around Energy Field. I heard him described as Bird of Lavamancer and that's what he felt like to me. Time to get my foil playset.

-Chains: Cute, but that was about what it would be as I expected. Probably should be something else.
-Nimble Mongoose: In the Legacy Challenge, I faced off against UW and Mongoose played out how I expected (amazingly). When boarding against UW, you're also taking out Death's Shadow and Tombstalker (Tombstalker is pretty bad against that deck), so Mongoose + Revoker gives you more guys to fill in the creature slots.

Nice finish. I probably would have boarded differently.


2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 hymn to tourachs
2 bitterblossom
2 Engineered Plague
3 tormod's crypt

- find some room to put another EP in there...that would be enough to win your merfolk, maverick and goblins matchup.

How was going with 3 abrupt decays?

[Greenpoe]

Why not just MD the Mongooses? Or, since Death's Shadow was good vs. aggro and bad vs. combo/control, find room for a couple of MD Lilianas (cutting some number of Death's Shadow)? I really don't mean to hate on the Death's Shadow movement, it just looks like you boarded out Death's Shadow a lot.

[Esper3k]

@Avatar: 3 Abrupt Decays was fine for me especially since I had the 3 Snuff Outs for removal as well. AD is good, but since it costs 2, it can get in the way of you removing an opponent's creature + playing a threat of your own in the same turn. I think the Chains could very easily become a second ePlague and third Choke.

@Greenpoe: I didn't MD the Mongooses because they interact so poorly with Tombstalker. Generally speaking, against Aggro and against combo, I'd rather have Tombstalker over Mongoose so I preferred to have the Tombstalkers main over the Mongooses. If you look at my matchups, I faced off against combo 3 rounds, which are among the types of decks Death's Shadow is bad against. I would've loved to have played against RUG or more creature decks where Death's Shadow really shines, but it wasn't to be.

Honestly, I would love to be able to find more creatures that are more generally good (like Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker) instead of ones that are situationally good like Death's Shadow and Bloodghast. With both of those guys when you draw them in the G1's where they're not good, it's just horrible.

[KobeBryan]

@Avatar: 3 Abrupt Decays was fine for me especially since I had the 3 Snuff Outs for removal as well. AD is good, but since it costs 2, it can get in the way of you removing an opponent's creature + playing a threat of your own in the same turn. I think the Chains could very easily become a second ePlague and third Choke.

@Greenpoe: I didn't MD the Mongooses because they interact so poorly with Tombstalker. Generally speaking, against Aggro and against combo, I'd rather have Tombstalker over Mongoose so I preferred to have the Tombstalkers main over the Mongooses. If you look at my matchups, I faced off against combo 3 rounds, which are among the types of decks Death's Shadow is bad against. I would've loved to have played against RUG or more creature decks where Death's Shadow really shines, but it wasn't to be.

Honestly, I would love to be able to find more creatures that are more generally good (like Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker) instead of ones that are situationally good like Death's Shadow and Bloodghast. With both of those guys when you draw them in the G1's where they're not good, it's just horrible.


Thats why i said you are a brave man. This deck is still missing an undercosted creature and you still brought it to a tournament and placed 40. good job.

[jtos84]

That was a very good read. Placing 40th with your deck in the tournament says a lot about your build. I think after you have had more time to work with it you or whoever runs your version will have the potential to beat that result. Do you think death's shadow is a possible s/b card?

[Esper3k]

That was a very good read. Placing 40th with your deck in the tournament says a lot about your build. I think after you have had more time to work with it you or whoever runs your version will have the potential to beat that result. Do you think death's shadow is a possible s/b card?

I'd say it depends on the meta if you want it main or SB. I think I was a little unlucky with how much combo I faced and ran into 0 RUG given that it's the most populous deck in the format right now.

Death's Shadow was very good against aggressive creature decks.

In the future I may want to try and find room for Sylvan Library again or some other ways to lose life in case you need to do it yourself to get Death's Shadow active.

[jtos84]

In my version death's shadow has to be in the main, but with yours I can see how you will have the option. I like the card although many people are not a fan of it. That is understandable. Unless you have played it a bit it seems like a very awkward card. I really like to play with it though.

I think if you ran a different discard option than cabal therapy you may go all the way with that deck. Some s/b options like maelstrom pulse to take care of jace help too. I was under the impression pernicious deed hit anything when I made the deck, but once I learned it did not I started using maelstrom pulse.

The tournament before the last one that I won I faced belcher round one. The player cast turn one empty the warrens, but I found my way out after two swings and facing lethal by top decking pernicious deed. Game two they mulliganed into a bunch of belchers and eventually cast one, but I destoyed their land and made them discard the rest until I destroyed the belcher. My hand was full of pulses and deeds, but I needed more mana.

[jtos84]

I was wondering about my tournament results yesterday, so I added up all of the tournaments I have played in with the the deck. If you exclude the first time I ran the deck and lost to monoblack pox, then my overall results for tournament play are 12 wins and 3 losses. Two losses are to goblins and delver which were both in game three and came down to the final play, or it would have gone the other way. I can't remember what the third loss was from. These losses were also pretty much the result of the manabase needing tweaked. I will continue to track my results, and keep you posted.

[Water_Wizard]

I've been running a hybrid of Esper's deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50705) and Nice's deck (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9465&iddeck=69088).

Here's what I've come up with:
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Barren Moor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Darkblast

3 Life from the Loam

3 Liliana of the Veil

//60 Cards

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle


I wanted to make a deck that would really break Deathrite Shaman.

Some notes on deck construction. I tried Grisly Salvage. This deck is already really high at the 2cc slot. Originally, I wanted to play with Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls, Life from the Loam, and Grisly Salvage, however, it just proved too much.

I think 3 Bloodghast is correct. You really want to dredge one for use with Cabal Therapy. I also think 3/3 split between Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse is correct. The reason I like 3 Pulse is because it hits some things that you can't with Decay, namely, Jace and Leyline of Sanctity. Leyline of Sanctity is a real pain for this deck, due to the amount of targeted discard.

I also considered Cabal Pit, but I didn't want to rely too heavily on the graveyard.

The sideboard can use some work. It probably needs some more combo hate. Even though the deck runs a lot of discard main, against a creatureless build, there are 7 cards you should take out (1 Darkblast, 3 Abrupt Decay, and 3 Maelstrom Pulse - Pulse is debatable due to Leyline of Sanctity), but I should only add 5 cards (2 Choke, 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Thoughtseize). I think Chains of Mephistopheles might be really good here.

I also wanted to add a few other versions of Deathrite decks that I came across.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9383&iddeck=68526 - I like this deck the best, it seems the most balanced.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9439&iddeck=68923 - Destructive Flow is interesting tech, although it might be too little, too late. Also, I'm think this mana base is too thin (18 lands?). Even with Chrome Mox, I think this deck needs at least 20 lands to run.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9442&iddeck=68943 - This deck uses Sinkhole and Dark Confidant, two ideas I was considering for my deck. I really only like Sinkhole with Smallpox, and I ruled out Smallpox due to Deathrite. Confidant would be nice, but that requires SDT and some form of life gain, like Jitte. I couldn't justify the 8 slots, but perhaps if I tweak my build, I could fit it in. The build I listed above gains card advantage through LftL and cycle lands + Liliana. Another method would be the Grisly Salvage, Lingering Souls, LftL, method. Your thoughts?

[jtos84]

Before a million random decklists show up I wanted to add some insight in deck choices that probably have not been explained, or have been overlooked because of the skill level that is assumed. The discard in the deck is rather important to sucess in this metagame. The number of one drop discard spells combined with hymn to tourach is meant to fight combo like show and tell, and anything that relies on early advantage. Esper's deck is capable of the same type of strategy, but will require more knowledge of the metagame.

An example of where experience comes into play aside from obviously recasting cabal therapy through bloodghast is being able to identify the archetype you are playing against. If someone plays turn one ancient tomb it may be a safe call to cabal therapy for show and tell for example. If you just run cabal therapy for the combination with bloodghast you will run into a lot of dead calls with it if you cannot indentify decks.

I think its safe to call both versions that we play evagreen, but both builds have been tested and are meant to do certain things. You should read some deck building articles and use metagame reports and then try some versions of your decks in tournaments. That's what I did. I knew that most people who do well over time in this game use certain principles when it comes to deckbuilding and rely on metagame statistics to make decks.

[jtos84]

After I played a bunch of games today I started thinking about bloodghast again. The control matchup are grindingly slow and painful, so I took out one sinkhole, one hymn tourach, one tombstalker, one deathrite shaman, and one death's shadow for three bloodghasts and two maelstrom pulses. I am really weary about taking out a death's shadow, but I will give it a try. I am going to have to redue all of my testing now though. I would probably make any change that hepls against stoneblade varients and miracles.

For the last person who replied don't listen to everything I say. I should have tested it out first before I said anything.

[jtos84]

I've finally got a chance to play some games with esper stoneblade. It has been quite a while since I have done any testing against it. I had adjusted my s/b before the game to put it where it should probably stay. The esper stoneblade match is now going to be determined by whoever makes a mistake. I took ot the angel of despairs and put in abrupt decays and maelstrom pulses. I also cut a few other cards and added two krosan grips. I can't remember what the original s/b was, but its posted somewhere around here.

So the s/b I will use looks like this.
2 - Abrupt Decay
4 - Maelstrom Pulse
2 - Krosan Grip
2 - Engineered Explosives
2 - Surgical Extraction
2 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Umezewa's Jitte

The engineered plagues were never seeing play. I would either win those matches without them or lose before I played them. The Angels of despair were not going to be as useful two krosan grips, so I changed that. The maelstrom pulses are extrememly neccessary against Jaces and tokens. The engineered explosives are good for delver and tokens, and the abrupt decay comes in against combo and certain aggro matches.

I did test more with bloodghast and the build I use doesn't work well with it. I really like maindeck the way it is, and I think the only change it has seen was the two abrupt decay's for the go the throats andone forest in the place of nights whisper.

[Greenpoe]

Isn't Bitterblossom better than Bloodghast in a lot of ways, especially when you want game against control? Bloodghast would be chosen for resiliency, but still gets removed to StP and Terminus, so I think Bitterblossom would then be a better choice. Plus, it's more lifeloss for Death's Shadow (though you might want a Jitte or two, since it's really good with BB and in case you're losing too much life).

[Esper3k]

I think Bitterblossom is great against control, but Bloodghast has a little more value if you're using Grisly Salvage.

[Water_Wizard]

Bitterblossom and Deed are also a non-bo. Because I am relying on Deed in the sideboard, I cut back on my use of Bitterblossom and Sylvan Library. However, you can make the argument that Bitterblossom and Sylvan Library should be removed in the games where you would want to bring in Deed. I think Bitterblossom might be worth a shot. I like that the creatures have evasion in order to carry a Jitte and I like that they can block.

[whiley85]

After some games with bloodghasts I'm not convinced yet. They are strong with therapies, they are strong with grisly salvage, but on their own they are terrible for BB.
In memory of the good old red death deck in the 2006's, is it worth to give Flesh Reaver a shot?
You can still run therapies since reaver can become useless on low life, but can also be a nice accelerator for shadow.

[KobeBryan]

After some games with bloodghasts I'm not convinced yet. They are strong with therapies, they are strong with grisly salvage, but on their own they are terrible for BB.
In memory of the good old red death deck in the 2006's, is it worth to give Flesh Reaver a shot?
You can still run therapies since reaver can become useless on low life, but can also be a nice accelerator for shadow.

Thing is with red death, you have 8 bolt spells that helps you race with flesh reaver

[Esper3k]

Bitterblossom and Deed are also a non-bo. Because I am relying on Deed in the sideboard, I cut back on my use of Bitterblossom and Sylvan Library. However, you can make the argument that Bitterblossom and Sylvan Library should be removed in the games where you would want to bring in Deed. I think Bitterblossom might be worth a shot. I like that the creatures have evasion in order to carry a Jitte and I like that they can block.

Yeah, while getting Enchantment + Tribal in your yard really grows 'goyfs, I haven't been playing Deed as much since I had been messing around with Death's Shadow.

Bloodghast was really good against the black based control lists since they have less exile based removal (especially when he's hasty and can pick up a Jitte).

If you're playing Bloodghasts or Bitterblossoms, I'd definitely recommend a couple Jittes main just so those guys can be a large threat on their own.

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks Esper - I modified the list I posted above as follows:

-2 Tombstalker
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Darkblast

+2 Sensei's Diving Top
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Dark Confidant

I think I might take it a step further and go:
-3 Bloodghast
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Dark Confidant
Although, I'm not sure about this yet, because Bloodghast is good with Life from the Loam, as Bloodghast is good with Grisly Salvage.

I tweaked the sideboard to:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
3 Thoughtseize
3 Chains of M.
1 Darkblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I'm still working out the kinks. I'm thinking about adding blue for Force of Will and changing to a Team America build. I'm tired of losing to combo without a fair chance.

[Esper3k]

Thanks Esper - I modified the list I posted above as follows:

-2 Tombstalker
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Darkblast

+2 Sensei's Diving Top
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Dark Confidant

I think I might take it a step further and go:
-3 Bloodghast
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Dark Confidant
Although, I'm not sure about this yet, because Bloodghast is good with Life from the Loam, as Bloodghast is good with Grisly Salvage.

I tweaked the sideboard to:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
3 Thoughtseize
3 Chains of M.
1 Darkblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I'm still working out the kinks. I'm thinking about adding blue for Force of Will and changing to a Team America build. I'm tired of losing to combo without a fair chance.

Yeah sadly, sometimes you get 20 gobs in your face even through your T1 discard spell *shakes fist at Charbelcher*.

The positive thing is if you really want to beat fast combo, you always can with like 4 Mindbreak Traps in the board.

[Water_Wizard]

Yeah sadly, sometimes you get 20 gobs in your face even through your T1 discard spell *shakes fist at Charbelcher*.

The positive thing is if you really want to beat fast combo, you always can with like 4 Mindbreak Traps in the board.

Mindbreak Trap is great against Charbelcher, Storm, and High Tide, but it doesn't do much against Omniscience. I guess you are going to get something with it, but they go Sol-Land, L Petal, Show and Tell->Omniscience and you can grab what ever they play off the Omniscience (assuming they don't have a counterspell), but they still have an Omniscience in play. I could load up on O-Rings in the board, but they seem rather narrow. Ensnaring Bridge is an option, but that only stops the creature kill. Chains stops the Petals kill only if they have 0 cards in hand.

[jtos84]

Whoever mentioned flesh reaver thanks. I was sittng here earlier thinking to myself that If only I had something like phyrexian negator so I could race the control player. I have never seen flesh reaver before because I am back from a five year magic card break. No the first one either. That card looks to fun not to try. It will allow me to use death's shadow also. I'm going to start testing it right now.

[whiley85]

Whoever mentioned flesh reaver thanks. I was sittng here earlier thinking to myself that If only I had something like phyrexian negator so I could race the control player. I have never seen flesh reaver before because I am back from a five year magic card break. No the first one either. That card looks to fun not to try. It will allow me to use death's shadow also. I'm going to start testing it right now.

Actually I think that Flesh Reaver didn't see any play in the last 5 years, it is even older... :smile:
With Death's Shadow you have a good chance to race the opp, and flesh reaver speeds this point of time up for 2-3 turns.
Although I think that Early disruption is nevertheless important for this deck to force your threats through.

IMO the main goal of this deck is to suck on opps hand and life for which you pay also an amount of life and cards.
Both players should be on low life and have no cards in hand as fast as possible and then you win with the bigger dudes.

[jtos84]

I've tested this card out using three from the s/b and it does exactly what I need it to do. This card is going to improve the miracles mathups. The esper stoneblade matchup may be improved, but they use just enough varience between decks that it is to hard to tell. Anything that runs semi slow is going to be a little easier to play against.

[Esper3k]

Mindbreak Trap is great against Charbelcher, Storm, and High Tide, but it doesn't do much against Omniscience. I guess you are going to get something with it, but they go Sol-Land, L Petal, Show and Tell->Omniscience and you can grab what ever they play off the Omniscience (assuming they don't have a counterspell), but they still have an Omniscience in play. I could load up on O-Rings in the board, but they seem rather narrow. Ensnaring Bridge is an option, but that only stops the creature kill. Chains stops the Petals kill only if they have 0 cards in hand.

Yeah but traditionally, fast combo is what we have a tougher time with (as opposed to slower combo like Show & Tell based decks).

Omnitell in particular has a problem vs hand disruption because Omniscience is essentially a 3 card combo (Omniscience, Burning Wish, Show & Tell).

Against Emrakul & Griselbrand, we can bring in Edict effects to deal with them, so those options usually aren't as bad.

Extirpate/Surgical Extraction is also pretty good against the Show & Tell decks especially if they keep in Intuition post board.

[jtos84]

Flesh reaver is back out already. Thats definitly not going to do it.

[KobeBryan]

Flesh reaver is back out already. Thats definitly not going to do it.

Yea...figured as much. without a source of direct damage to race, its not going to cut it.

On another note, has anyone tried rancor to give us Card advantage and trampling with our fatties?

[whiley85]

Yea...figured as much. without a source of direct damage to race, its not going to cut it.

On another note, has anyone tried rancor to give us Card advantage and trampling with our fatties?

Yep it also didn't work as well, I always wished it was another creature instead.
I even tried Reanimate as "undercoated beater".
They both look good on paper but are imo too narrow and situational.

[Esper3k]

Yea...figured as much. without a source of direct damage to race, its not going to cut it.

On another note, has anyone tried rancor to give us Card advantage and trampling with our fatties?

I actually did try Rancor. It was alright but I generally liked Jitte more for its versatility and lack of getting 2 for 1'd when they kill your dude in response to your Rancor.

[jtos84]

Rancor seems like a good idea for the esperstoneblade matchup. I started working with zoo again yesterday, and I was considering rancor or another jitte for that deck. I need rancor possibly so that I can trample over creatures to get to jace if thats possible. I put a couple in my s/b, but I can't test them out until monday or tomorrow night because I have to write a paper today and take a final tomorrow.

[KobeBryan]

Been playing several games on cockatrice with eva green, just for kicks.

Why do you guys like deaths shadow. This guy sits in my hand longer than an extra sylvan library or an extra jitte.

[Rkork]

i'm starting to play a variant of this deck , my deck looks somewhat like this

creatures:17
4 dark confindat
2 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampire nighthawk
3 deathrite shaman
1 eternal witness
4 nyxathrid

spells:14
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
1 innocent blood
1 disfigure
2 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse

enchantmets:3
3 bitterblossom

PW:2
2 liliana of the veil

artefacts:2
2 umezawa's jitte

lands 22

and i'm a little scared that i have no turn 1 kill spell and a little to no sacrifice effects ... any ideas ?

[Esper3k]

i'm starting to play a variant of this deck , my deck looks somewhat like this

creatures:17
4 dark confindat
2 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampire nighthawk
3 deathrite shaman
1 eternal witness
4 nyxathrid

spells:14
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
1 innocent blood
1 disfigure
2 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse

enchantmets:3
3 bitterblossom

PW:2
2 liliana of the veil

artefacts:2
2 umezawa's jitte

lands 22

and i'm a little scared that i have no turn 1 kill spell and a little to no sacrifice effects ... any ideas ?

I think your list is actually probably closer to The Gate than to an Eva Green list since your list really isn't very aggressive (no Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker?).

That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about 1 drop removal spells. There really isn't much out there right now that really requires you to kill it on T1 other than Lackey (which DRS blocks) and Mother of Runes (which isn't seeing much play right now).

[Darksider]

I think your list is actually probably closer to The Gate than to an Eva Green list since your list really isn't very aggressive (no Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker?).

That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about 1 drop removal spells. There really isn't much out there right now that really requires you to kill it on T1 other than Lackey (which DRS blocks) and Mother of Runes (which isn't seeing much play right now).


I don't think that this list is closer to The Gate, since Eva Green and The Gate work in the same way. You first want to disrupt your opponent and than kill him with a Bomb like Tombstalker or Goofy. Also the Gate drops down Percy after disrupting their enemy.

But nowadays both the Gate and Eva Green can't be played in their original way. I mean that you can't play Eva Green like it is showed on the first Page of this Thread, also the Gate has to change playstyle a little bit, because of the monocoloured Build they lack on answeres to artifacts and enchantments and sometimes also Planeswalkers.

I took the decklist from Rkork and changed it and combined it with a Deck i saw on TC Decks.


//creatures
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nyxathid
1 Eternal Witness
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
//artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte
//spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
//planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
//enchantment
2 Bitterblossom
//lands
6 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest



I kicked the Nighthawks and also 1 Blossom and put in one more Jitte and Lilli. I tested this List today a few times on Cockatrice to get a feeling which cards are good and which one don't fit in the Deck.
So here are my thoughts about this: Landbase is okay, never was Manascrewed. Thanks to Shaman^^. I consider to put in 3 Wastelands, to kill Manlands and Utilitylands.
Also Bitterblossom wasn't really good, because they don't do anything important for you. Blossom only generates each Round a Chumpblocker so you can wait for a solution, but this don't help in most cases.
Also the single Wittness is a wasted Slot i think, because you don't see her often in games.

There are 3 new Slots to fill, but i have no idea what fits in these slots.
I thought about a single Sylvan Library (or maybe 2?^^) and a little bit more turn 1 Discard. What do you guys think about this?

P.S.: Sorry for my bad english. Hope you understand my text^^.

Mfg Darksider

[Rkork]

yea the Bitterblossoms are a little odd in the deck but i found them to be great in Miracles and Standstill matches if you can force them down turn 2 it`s almost an autowin, or i can use them as sort of hymn to tourach after a turn1 duress and force them to use FoW+ ablue card .

and the single wittnes is there just as a reuse effect i don`t want to have a full hand of wttnesses and no action in it.

ass for aggresive creatures go nyxatrid fills the role pretty good , yes it is not as explosive as goyf but i don`t have them and he is a better card then any other in this slot ..... revealing tombstalker with Bob can hurt and percy is somethimes hard to get rid off.

[aznepyon7]

i'm starting to play a variant of this deck , my deck looks somewhat like this

creatures:17
4 dark confindat
2 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampire nighthawk
3 deathrite shaman
1 eternal witness
4 nyxathrid

spells:14
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
1 innocent blood
1 disfigure
2 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse

enchantmets:3
3 bitterblossom

PW:2
2 liliana of the veil

artefacts:2
2 umezawa's jitte

lands 22

and i'm a little scared that i have no turn 1 kill spell and a little to no sacrifice effects ... any ideas ?


I think Eva Green should be more explosive to compete with TA, Jund, and RUG. Playing late game against the UW/x decks are also not favorable.



My suggestions:


I would go with another Liliana. Any control deck must absolutely deal with this ASAP and it's strong mid game or T2 with DRS out.

I would also replace 2 Duress for 1-2 Thoughtseizes. There are too many creatures around. 1 IoK is also good if you don't run 4 Abrupt.

Also I wouldn't run less than 4 DRS. This card is insane. Again another threat that must be removed. Unlike some really fast decks, Eva Green can choose to not be as dependent on GY, especially if they don't run TS.

I'm not sure why Nyxathrid is so popular. It costs 3 to play which is big. I much rather lay out Liliana or some of our better cards. Goyf is still better in this case. Often both just become fodder for STP, Abrupt Decays, ect. but I'd rather pay 2 than 3 and also have to depend on an empty hand.

Bitterblossom is good against control decks but are only ok against Jund and some of the faster decks. Maybe sideboard material.

We also don't need an Eternal Witness. Threat after threat early game works better than trying to go long. I think this should by a Sylvan Library instead which is nice with Confidant. It's also like our 5th Confidant. Confidants generally don't stick around long.

Abrupt Decay should at least be a 3 of. The curve in Legacy right now is so low and the amount of counters floating around makes it worth it. I would move Maelstrom Pulse down to 1.

The sinkhole package with Life of the Loam is great in this deck. Eva Green is quite resistant to mana denial which allows us to use up wastelands more eagerly than Jund or TA, which have a shaky mana base. The fact that we have DRS to produce G for us for Goyf and Abrupt Decay makes mana screw a even less attractive strategy. TA does this routinely with Jund, it can't with Eva Green.

[KobeBryan]

Finally put a couple of hours with my favorite deck yesterday.

Decklist

Creatures
4 deathrite shamans
3 tombstalkers
4 tarmogoyf
3 gatekeeper of malikar
2 vampire nighthawk

enchantment
2 sylvan library

instant
4 dark ritual
4 abrupt decay

lands
4 bayou
1 misty rainforest
4 bloodstained mire
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
3 swamp
1 forest

sorcery
4 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kolizek
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole

sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 extirpate
3 engineered plague
2 diabolic edict
2 duress
2 krosan grip
2 flex slots (another grip, chain of mephistopheles, or bitterblossom)

I can tell you from testing, vampire nighthawk is not what I want. Sylvan library is good, but not needed. It can be 2 jittes. So that leaves me with 4 slots to find better creatures.

I like my dark rituals, but it needs to serve another purpose. Right now, I only get super powerful turns early, but it is pathetic late game. I think dark ritual is the best card to side out. Dark ritual on the draw, and take out dark ritual on the play.

I did pretty good yesterday against elves, Doomsday, ANT, goblins, merfolk, maverick, and jund.

I did lose to a couple of control decks, miracles and countertop. These decks are packing diverts now and it gets quite nasty.

[Hardcore]

diverts? What is that?

[Richard Cheese]

diverts? What is that?

Divert

[Esper3k]

I haven't seen much activity on here in awhile and had decided to revisit Eva for nostalgia's sake.

Last time I played this, I really wasn't happy with Death's Shadow so I was looking for something to replace it.

Currently, I'm looking at a combination of Bloodghast + Lingering Souls or Bloodghast + Strangleroot Geist.

Lingering Souls is much more powerful than Geist but it also strains our manabase more. But, I think if you're not going to be greedy then why play Eva, right?

Here's my current list trying out Lingering Souls:

// Lands
2 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [RTR] Grisly Salvage
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [NPH] Dismember
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [DDD] Snuff Out

In today's meta with Bobs and Deathrites all over the place, the Snuff Out should probably be a Dismember. However, I do like my foily Snuff Outs :(

[Sughayyer]

Esper
Talking about greed:
why no bobs?
With 21 lands, does therapy + bloodghast work at all? Wouldn't Hymn be better? (ok I know you can play bayou, shaman, then therapy, geerate mana with shaman, therapy, cast grissly salvage, voilá super fast tombstalker, I'm asking if there's another reason)

[Esper3k]

Esper
Talking about greed:
why no bobs?
With 21 lands, does therapy + bloodghast work at all? Wouldn't Hymn be better? (ok I know you can play bayou, shaman, then therapy, geerate mana with shaman, therapy, cast grissly salvage, voilá super fast tombstalker, I'm asking if there's another reason)

I've never liked Bobs in Eva. To me, Eva needs to be aggressive, which Bob isn't. Playing Bobs also means you can't play Tombstalker.

Grisly Salvage in general is amazing with Tombstalker. Grisly Salvage into Tombstalker conveniently nets you 5 cards in your yard (4 cards after taking your Tombstalker + your Grisly). With a fetchland, you can immediately caste Tombstalker now.

I cut Hymns awhile back because I believe it is more important these days to hit key spells your opponents are playing as opposed to getting card advantage. Therapy + Bloodghast / Lingering Souls or Geist helps recoup card advantage if you need it.

[Sughayyer]

I understand that and I used to think like that a few months ago, but I akready said how I feel about it on the rock thread. But what I want to know is if cabal+ghast work on a 21 land deck...

[Esper3k]

I understand that and I used to think like that a few months ago, but I akready said how I feel about it on the rock thread. But what I want to know is if cabal+ghast work on a 21 land deck...

It hasn't been a big issue so far. Since the deck functions mostly on 2 mana, you can hold extra lands and save your fetches for Bloodghasts.

Also, you can always get a land with Grisly Salvage if you absolutely have to (say to get multiple Bloodghasts back or something).

[guybrush3]

It hasn't been a big issue so far. Since the deck functions mostly on 2 mana, you can hold extra lands and save your fetches for Bloodghasts.

Also, you can always get a land with Grisly Salvage if you absolutely have to (say to get multiple Bloodghasts back or something).

i think this post i wrote should go here since i built this Eva void green deck.

Played a local DCI torunament in Rome yesterday night and won it!! this was the deck list i played with...

x4 tarmogoyf
x2 thrun
x2 treetop village
x4 sinkhole
x4 abrupt decay
x2 pernicious deed
x1 ice storm
x1 deathrite shaman
x4 wasteland
x4 thoughtseize
x2 duress
x4 nether void
x1 sylvan library
x3 sensei
x3 liliana of the veil
x4 dark ritual
x4 verdant catacombs
x2 wooded foothils
x1 polluted delta
x3 swamp
x1 forest
x2 boyou
x2 urborg
side
x2 peething needle
x1 ensaring bridge
x1 enginnered explosives
x1 damnation
x4 leyleine of the void
x2 engineered plague
x2 choke
x2 perish

FAST description of match ups:

turn 1 :
BUG DELVER : lost 2-0
turn 2 :
AFFINITY: won 2-1
turn 3 :
LOCUS SHOW AND EMRAKUL: won 2-1
turn 4 : ANT won 2-1

semifinal : ELVES won 2-1

the final was against bug delver but we didnt played.

[jtos84]

I started playing again, and I initially didn't think this deck was going to cut it, but after playing for a while I see its potential again. I have made some changes to it though. Golgari charm seems to be the card I needed to combat decks like esper stoneblade. I am going to playtest against its past bad matchups, and I will post how the deck performed.

// Lands
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
3 Tombstalker

// Spells
3 Sinkhole
1 Night's Whisper
1 Bitterblossom
2 Dismember
4 Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Snuff Out
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Vampire Nighthawk
SB: 3 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed

[Qweerios]

Most lists in here lack 4 copies of Liliana. She keeps your opponent in topdeck mode, adds a very different angle of disruption that some decks simply cannot handle, and she will turn your late discard spells into edict charges. Going all out "Dark Ritual" style is only effective against decks that need a very specific combination of cards to win. Nowadays, most decks are midrange or tempo oriented and contain cards that will hit the table and slow you down enough for your opponent to recover and inch out a victory through his superior cards.

Eva Green is the first legacy competitive deck I have played so it holds a special place in my heart. Every now and then I go back to it out of sheer nostalgia and try to make it good again. First, look at why you would want to limit yourself to BG only. Usually, you stay on two colors because you want to use Wasteland and double costed cards like Salvage, Decay, Tombstalker, Hymn, Sinkhole, and of course, Liliana. With the addition of Grisly Salvage, Eva Green has its own Ponder/Brainstorm to compete with the other BUG/RUG decks. Then there are the BG Legacy staples like Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Thoughtseize that simply cannot be ignored.


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Sinkhole
2 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte


It is true that Bob and Tombstalker don't get along in theory, but in practice flipping a TS is extremely rare and doesn't make you lose the game. An active DRS or Top is enough to mitigate anything Bob throws at you.

[KobeBryan]

I started playing again, and I initially didn't think this deck was going to cut it, but after playing for a while I see its potential again. I have made some changes to it though. Golgari charm seems to be the card I needed to combat decks like esper stoneblade. I am going to playtest against its past bad matchups, and I will post how the deck performed.

// Lands
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
3 Tombstalker

// Spells
3 Sinkhole
1 Night's Whisper
1 Bitterblossom
2 Dismember
4 Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Snuff Out
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Vampire Nighthawk
SB: 3 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed

sideboard.

I rather run pernicious deed instead of EE, double up on it.

Usually, if you are using deed, there is no reason to play pulse. Thats from my experience at least.

[jtos84]

The meta game is more developed than when I first created this deck. Originally the deeds were in the main deck, but in the play testing I have done so far there did not seem to be a need for them in the main deck if at all. There is no real problem with running two deeds I just have not been given a reason to do so yet. The engineered explosives is mainly for any type of token and it is also good against delver. It is good for enchantress as well. Maelstrom pulse is for Jace, the mindsculptor or various artifacts.

[jtos84]

I should have taken notes on the deck before I stopped playing because I new I was just taking a break from Magic to finish school. The deeds must be in the main because they enable you to complete the decks strategy. The list for the main should be the original list minus a hymn to tourach and two sinkholes; and plus a sylvan library, life from the loam, and an abrupt decay. If you are playing in a tier one meta I would suggest cutting the extra abrupt decay for the fourth hymn.


I would think the s/b could be anything you deem necessary. I have made about ten different s/bs, but none seem to put the deck at any more of an advantage because of the diversity of legacy. I would just remember to come up with a decent grave hate strategy and something for life gain is necessary.

I just played the deck in the St. Louis open. I lost to some good decks, but my oppenents drew the nuts. The deck played extremely well. Many of my matches were no shows because my opps probably went home or started drafting MM. I am going to Origins this weekend to give it another shot. I have come up with a new s/b that may perform a little differently.

[jtos84]

For anyone besides myself who enjoys playing this deck I thought I would post a few updates on changes and performance.

I piloted the deck in SCG opens St. Louis and Ohio with good results. It actually performed exactly how I wanted it to. I went 5-4 in both opens although I did bring the match with Maverick to a draw I ended up conceding because the player seemed enthusiastic about their chances. Anything I lost was normally by one life, one mana, or an untap and I would have won. The open in St. Louis showed me that three abrupt decays must be in the main. Also I did lose to ichorid. These games showed me that my s/b was lacking in something. When I played elves I s/b in the massacres I was running in the board and lost do to only having three mana and no way to cast the spell. So after these experiences I found some cards I did not know about, and revamped the s/b.

I won a small side event in Columbus, and I also just won a small tournament on magic league tonight.

I'll post the list and then explain why some changes were made.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp

// Creatures
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

// Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague
2 Infest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt

The phyrexian metamorph has proved invaluable. It can copy a batterskull or one of your own creatures which can be game changing. The sylvan safekeeper is also very good. Much of the time any lands sacrificed just go to the tombstalker. They also give the deck the extra creature base it was lacking. The s/b now has four surgical extractions to capitalize on the main deck discard. These in combination with a tormod's crypt and a grafdigger's cage give substantial protection from graveyard strategies as well as maximizing your chances with show and tell.

I have learned that when facing decks that run cards like mirran crusader or knight of the reliquary you will want to take out the hymn to tourachs. These cards must be taken from the hand whenever possible. The infests in the s/b also help with geist, those two cards mentioned before, elves, and anything running small creatures. Two jittes really improve the goblin and burn matchups. They were already good, but now they are better. When facing anything with swords to plowshares bring in the additional library, and two or three surgical extractions. The infests are also probably what you will want in these matches as well. The life from the loam is extremely good, and can win matches on its own much of the time. It can put enough cards in the grave for a tombstalker, or it can just provide you with the lands you need to use. It also freed up some deck space.

Today the deck I beat were goblins, punishing jund, and elves. The tournament I won in Columbus started with a draw against b/u Tezz, a win against a white deck similar to older death and taxes, and a deck running kuldotha forgemaster, goblin welder and a myriad of other threats. This deck may seem out of the norm, but it placed 14th in the open I believe. Anyway with these changes my success rate had been very high resembling the success I had when I first made it. Let me know what your thoughts are, and if you have any questions about how to play the deck just ask.

[FTW]

Personally I enjoy the following list, but this is just a homebrew that's had some local success:


//30 creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodghast
3 Vengevine

//10 Spells:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

//20 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre



The graveyard interactions are way too easily hated out by Leyline/Rest in Peace and even just Deathrite Shamans, so you typically board out Ghasts and Vines in games 2 and 3 for whichever disruption best tackles the opponent's strategy, morphing into a more traditional Eva green while the opponent durdles trying to shut down your graveyard. The extra disfigures help kill stuff like DRS, SFM, Delver, Lackey, Wirewood Symbiote, Thalia, Bob, Lavamancer, etc.. but perhaps they should be Infests instead if expecting lots of dorks.

What do you think about this angle of attack?

[jtos84]

I would not want to negatively judge your deck without meaningful explanations, and especially without having play tested it. A major factor in the success of my build is its method of combatting combo. I can see where your deck will have stronger matchups and possibly weaker matchups. For small meta games that is probably a really decent build. I know I have played against that deck more than a few times.

When I make decks, or even play them for that matter I always have predetermined goals. Every single card in the decks I play is put there with the purpose of it having the most value or impact, card-for-card, in a certain meta game.

[Chatto]

I always got a softspot for this deck and the suicide black- archetype. I have one question: why do the last two decks here run no Lily? Some research shows that the last decklist I found on the net all have Lily main (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/115)

Anyway, my take on this deck (no sideboard yet), still got to test it:

Creatures (16)

2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

Spells (14)

1 Inquisition of Kozilek (will turn in a 4th Thoughtseize)
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach

Other spells (4)

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil

Land (22)

2 Bloostained Mire
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
4 Swamp

[FTW]

A major factor in the success of my build is its method of combatting combo. I can see where your deck will have stronger matchups and possibly weaker matchups.
Yeah, your build looks well-tuned to a heavy combo meta. Congrats on its success!

Not to sound condescending, but of course a deck with 30 creatures has a weaker combo matchup than a deck with 10+ MD discard. Aggro is weak to combo. Although this has a much better combo match than Zoo or Goblins, especially after boarding into Duress and Hymn. But this beats up on RUG and Esperblade and random stuff pretty well, and like I said is just a homebrew for FNMs; clearly it is not finely tuned nor my main Legacy deck nor what I would bring to fight OmniTell and TES and SneakShow.


Every single card in the decks I play is put there with the purpose of it having the most value or impact, card-for-card, in a certain meta game.
That is the design philosophy for most tempo/aggro-control decks, where you want every single spell to individually have a strong impact, mostly efficient 1-for-1s and quick clocks. IMO that sounds like the philosophy behind Eva Green.

What I presented was a build for B/g sui, which may have a lot of overlapping cards but IMO a fundamentally different design philosophy. I'm surprised the threads are combined since they seem to be fundamentally different strategies. Does anyone know why they are combined? Playing Bob and Thoughtseize and swamps doesn't instantly make you a sui deck...

Clearly, with 30 creatures, this is not an aggro-control deck but an aggro deck. My understanding is Eva Green usually runs heavy discard, cheap removal and a few efficient threats. Sui aggro, IMO, wants to rush out the gates with undercosted threats and overwhelm the opponent, utilizing the same discard and removal tools but moreso as ways to remove roadblocks than as a long-term disruptive plan. Aggro-control cannot afford to run potentially dead cards or cute cards, but rush aggro strategies (particularly sui builds) can benefit from running an overwhelming number of cheap threats or potentially explosive interactions. Old school sui black used to run card disadvantage like Dark Ritual and Negator+Hatred to cash in on the explosive wins, right?

I suppose you could argue this is not really "sui aggro" either but just aggro, but at least it's Bg rush aggro and more in line with a sui deck philosophy IMO.

Anyway, the general idea is to abuse a few interactions to churn out cheap threats, many threats, and have recursion to keep you going. You've probably faced similar brews at FNMs at some point. Vengevine and Lotleth Troll both require a high creature count, so the spells are sparse (no MD Hymn, Top would be too slow) and used as a supplement to take out must-kills instead of as a main gameplan. Disfigure is used because you want a cheap answer to DRS, otherwise your graveyard interactions are kind of moot. It also answers a lot of other annoying dorks. Key interactions are stuff like Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Vengevine/Bloodghast, Bloodghast + fetchlands, Gravecrawler recursion + Vengevines (cheap way to cast 2 creatures), DRS + Vengevine (DRS makes hardcasting viable). Carrion Feeder can grow quite large with recurring dudes, and the sacrifice keeps counters off Jitte and stops Batterskull lifegain and kills Bridge from Belows. Bob is self-explanatory. Goyf is there as a generic beater when other things fail. DRS, aside from being good in general, sets you up for things like turn 2 Lotleth with black mana open or casting more dudes faster or getting more Carrion Feeder+Gravecrawler activations.

An older version I ran was more BG madness-esque, if that helps add some context to the card choices

//32 creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gravecrawler
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine

//9 spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

//19 lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls

//Sideboard:
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre

That was when RUG and Maverick were the big decks and it actually did quite well against both. But that was before everyone started running DRS and Rest in Peace.

Anyway, perhaps this belongs in a different thread. Does anyone know why Eva Green is merged with Bg sui? Is there a BG Madness thread somewhere in Developmental Decks?

[jtos84]

I ran Liliana from the s/b in both opens. I also tested it thoroughly beforehand. While it improved my matchup with junk, which at the time was one of my worst matchups, it did not consistently work out. I rarely ran into decks like show and tell once I started running them. When I did they would normally win with the sneak attack anyway. They are good against enter the infinite decks. I personally think they card is best in bug control, jund, or pox. The other versions of evagreen can probably use the card better because they have more board threats to put out early to protect the Liliana.

[Asthereal]

Why not play like 3-4x Buried Alive in there?
Of course that sucks against grave hate, but the cool thing is that you just side that shit out and let them mess up their boarding.

A rough list could be:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Grave Crawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrell
2 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine /29

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Buried Alive /12

4 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath /19

Sideboard:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction /15

Something like that. Post board you take out Buried Alive, the Vines and some other graveyard using dudes, and just side in Zenith and whatever else could be useful in that particular matchup.

If you want to play more traditional Eva Green, Zenith can also be fine. It's often hard to find properly big dudes that have no real drawbacks. Goyf is the best of them all, so why not just fetch up more of them? Adding one Scrubland can also mean you can put a one-of Gaddock Teeg in the board and be better against Storm.

[Chatto]

Adding one Scrubland can also mean you can put a one-of Gaddock Teeg in the board and be better against Storm.

That makes it almost The Rock :smile:

[Esper3k]

Yeah, your build looks well-tuned to a heavy combo meta. Congrats on its success!

Not to sound condescending, but of course a deck with 30 creatures has a weaker combo matchup than a deck with 10+ MD discard. Aggro is weak to combo. Although this has a much better combo match than Zoo or Goblins, especially after boarding into Duress and Hymn. But this beats up on RUG and Esperblade and random stuff pretty well, and like I said is just a homebrew for FNMs; clearly it is not finely tuned nor my main Legacy deck nor what I would bring to fight OmniTell and TES and SneakShow.


That is the design philosophy for most tempo/aggro-control decks, where you want every single spell to individually have a strong impact, mostly efficient 1-for-1s and quick clocks. IMO that sounds like the philosophy behind Eva Green.

What I presented was a build for B/g sui, which may have a lot of overlapping cards but IMO a fundamentally different design philosophy. I'm surprised the threads are combined since they seem to be fundamentally different strategies. Does anyone know why they are combined? Playing Bob and Thoughtseize and swamps doesn't instantly make you a sui deck...

Clearly, with 30 creatures, this is not an aggro-control deck but an aggro deck. My understanding is Eva Green usually runs heavy discard, cheap removal and a few efficient threats. Sui aggro, IMO, wants to rush out the gates with undercosted threats and overwhelm the opponent, utilizing the same discard and removal tools but moreso as ways to remove roadblocks than as a long-term disruptive plan. Aggro-control cannot afford to run potentially dead cards or cute cards, but rush aggro strategies (particularly sui builds) can benefit from running an overwhelming number of cheap threats or potentially explosive interactions. Old school sui black used to run card disadvantage like Dark Ritual and Negator+Hatred to cash in on the explosive wins, right?

I suppose you could argue this is not really "sui aggro" either but just aggro, but at least it's Bg rush aggro and more in line with a sui deck philosophy IMO.

Anyway, the general idea is to abuse a few interactions to churn out cheap threats, many threats, and have recursion to keep you going. You've probably faced similar brews at FNMs at some point. Vengevine and Lotleth Troll both require a high creature count, so the spells are sparse (no MD Hymn, Top would be too slow) and used as a supplement to take out must-kills instead of as a main gameplan. Disfigure is used because you want a cheap answer to DRS, otherwise your graveyard interactions are kind of moot. It also answers a lot of other annoying dorks. Key interactions are stuff like Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Vengevine/Bloodghast, Bloodghast + fetchlands, Gravecrawler recursion + Vengevines (cheap way to cast 2 creatures), DRS + Vengevine (DRS makes hardcasting viable). Carrion Feeder can grow quite large with recurring dudes, and the sacrifice keeps counters off Jitte and stops Batterskull lifegain and kills Bridge from Belows. Bob is self-explanatory. Goyf is there as a generic beater when other things fail. DRS, aside from being good in general, sets you up for things like turn 2 Lotleth with black mana open or casting more dudes faster or getting more Carrion Feeder+Gravecrawler activations.

An older version I ran was more BG madness-esque, if that helps add some context to the card choices

//32 creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gravecrawler
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine

//9 spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

//19 lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls

//Sideboard:
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre

That was when RUG and Maverick were the big decks and it actually did quite well against both. But that was before everyone started running DRS and Rest in Peace.

Anyway, perhaps this belongs in a different thread. Does anyone know why Eva Green is merged with Bg sui? Is there a BG Madness thread somewhere in Developmental Decks?

I like it! No love for Oona's Prowler as over Wild Mongrel? Just curious, but what are the 2 Caverns for? To call on Zombie?

[FTW]

I like it! No love for Oona's Prowler as over Wild Mongrel? Just curious, but what are the 2 Caverns for? To call on Zombie?

Yup, for Zombie. The build I posted was from October when RUG was dominant and everyone was playing it. RUG and UR Delver have basically no outs (SB Submerge??) to Cavern of Souls @ Zombie casting Lotleth Troll with black mana open. Troll just smashes face right through their threat-light deck and outraces Insectile Aberration. Troll was dominant against Stoneblade and Maverick too, trampling over silly spirit tokens and Mom'd dorks, basically forcing them to decide between using StP on Troll or one of your many recurring guys. Caverns also protected Carrion Feeder, another great win condition and a sacrifice outlet to foil Jitte/Batterskull or save Vengevines from StP. So I was kind of metagaming to beat those decks and protecting Troll and Feeder was good enough to warrant the Caverns. The only time you need heavy colored mana is when you're comboing Carrion Feeder+Gravecrawler, and Caverns would tap for black there, so 2 copies didn't really get in the way. I wouldn't run it now though.

Oona's Prowler is tempting. At the time, I preferred the ground body that could screw up combat math or force trades and dodge Moms, and running Prowler into Lingering Souls would make me sad. But maybe it's worth it in this meta. Hmm...

I like the Buried Alive variant. I tested 2-3 copies at some point, cutting Bloodghasts or Thoughtseizes to squeeze them in. Can't remember now. It was good in some matches, bad in others. But I never tried it with Hierarchs and the GSZ board plan! Worth testing. What's most appealing about Buried Alive is that it actually HELPS against GY hate in game 1. I've been cutting back on the madness because of DRS, but DRS can only stop one threat a turn, and one way to beat that is to just dump threats faster than it can remove them!

[Esper3k]

I always wanted to give Lotleth Troll a spin, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Postboard, Submerge really seems bad for him, heh but if we can get him down in G1, it seems pretty good.

[jtos84]

I got sixth place in magic league's master tournament today. I used the same main deck as I posted last time, but the s/b had a card change or two. I lost in the top 8 to the player who got first place. They were playing elves. I was somewhat tight on mana, and I failed to remember that wirewood symbiot is not an elf, so I did not destroy it right then with an abrupt decay. That error snow-balled into a million elves. I think I even managed to basically clear the board both games, but the mana was tighter than it usually is, and my opponent was not making any mistakes. That was a really fun tournament and match though.

[KntrellCL]

Yeah, your build looks well-tuned to a heavy combo meta. Congrats on its success!

Not to sound condescending, but of course a deck with 30 creatures has a weaker combo matchup than a deck with 10+ MD discard. Aggro is weak to combo. Although this has a much better combo match than Zoo or Goblins, especially after boarding into Duress and Hymn. But this beats up on RUG and Esperblade and random stuff pretty well, and like I said is just a homebrew for FNMs; clearly it is not finely tuned nor my main Legacy deck nor what I would bring to fight OmniTell and TES and SneakShow.


That is the design philosophy for most tempo/aggro-control decks, where you want every single spell to individually have a strong impact, mostly efficient 1-for-1s and quick clocks. IMO that sounds like the philosophy behind Eva Green.

What I presented was a build for B/g sui, which may have a lot of overlapping cards but IMO a fundamentally different design philosophy. I'm surprised the threads are combined since they seem to be fundamentally different strategies. Does anyone know why they are combined? Playing Bob and Thoughtseize and swamps doesn't instantly make you a sui deck...

Clearly, with 30 creatures, this is not an aggro-control deck but an aggro deck. My understanding is Eva Green usually runs heavy discard, cheap removal and a few efficient threats. Sui aggro, IMO, wants to rush out the gates with undercosted threats and overwhelm the opponent, utilizing the same discard and removal tools but moreso as ways to remove roadblocks than as a long-term disruptive plan. Aggro-control cannot afford to run potentially dead cards or cute cards, but rush aggro strategies (particularly sui builds) can benefit from running an overwhelming number of cheap threats or potentially explosive interactions. Old school sui black used to run card disadvantage like Dark Ritual and Negator+Hatred to cash in on the explosive wins, right?

I suppose you could argue this is not really "sui aggro" either but just aggro, but at least it's Bg rush aggro and more in line with a sui deck philosophy IMO.

Anyway, the general idea is to abuse a few interactions to churn out cheap threats, many threats, and have recursion to keep you going. You've probably faced similar brews at FNMs at some point. Vengevine and Lotleth Troll both require a high creature count, so the spells are sparse (no MD Hymn, Top would be too slow) and used as a supplement to take out must-kills instead of as a main gameplan. Disfigure is used because you want a cheap answer to DRS, otherwise your graveyard interactions are kind of moot. It also answers a lot of other annoying dorks. Key interactions are stuff like Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll + Vengevine/Bloodghast, Bloodghast + fetchlands, Gravecrawler recursion + Vengevines (cheap way to cast 2 creatures), DRS + Vengevine (DRS makes hardcasting viable). Carrion Feeder can grow quite large with recurring dudes, and the sacrifice keeps counters off Jitte and stops Batterskull lifegain and kills Bridge from Belows. Bob is self-explanatory. Goyf is there as a generic beater when other things fail. DRS, aside from being good in general, sets you up for things like turn 2 Lotleth with black mana open or casting more dudes faster or getting more Carrion Feeder+Gravecrawler activations.

An older version I ran was more BG madness-esque, if that helps add some context to the card choices

//32 creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Gravecrawler
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine

//9 spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

//19 lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls

//Sideboard:
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre

That was when RUG and Maverick were the big decks and it actually did quite well against both. But that was before everyone started running DRS and Rest in Peace.

Anyway, perhaps this belongs in a different thread. Does anyone know why Eva Green is merged with Bg sui? Is there a BG Madness thread somewhere in Developmental Decks?


I played this very same deck list... i used dismember over decay (too mana demanding)... 4 entombs 3 buried alive 4 cabal Therapy. Putrid imp is better than Wild Mongrel...

You can play putrid imp into vengevine into basking rootwalla... hitting for 4 and then 8 turn 2/3.

In sideboard... i used 4 natural order, dryad arbor and progenitus...discard spells and decay.

[jtos84]

I got second place in a 28 person tournament on magic league yesterday. I beat Jund, 2 rug delvers, r/w/u delver. I lost in game three in the finals to esper deathblade. It was close though. Game two I was unable to scavenge a death's shadow with varolz because My second black source had been wastelanded. Game three I had quite a few creatures out including a sylvan safekeeper, but my opponent cast supreme verdict, and that was a bit to much at that point.

[KobeBryan]

That new Waste Not card looks pretty interesting in this deck.

Most of the time, you will either be getting a 2/2 or a new card.

getting 2 mana isn't too shabby either. Might work pretty well with nantuko shade.

[Neffy]

Could it be an idea to capitalize on sylvan library (playing 2) and mainly focusing on DS and Ghast+Cabal? (and TS still ofc...)
I mean drawing lots of cards with sylvan to grow Shadow while heavy disrupt via Ghast and recurring Cabals to protect it and the rest of our lives?

@KobeBryan: agreed. It seems like an enchantment version of Deathrite and with a lot of good possibilites around it. I will try 3-4 if the manacost is official. Hymn just got better!

[kingtk3]

May I ask you what card you are referring to? ^_^

[Esper3k]

Waste Not, the most recent players created card.

[jtos84]

I picked this deck back up again. I think it may be pretty decent. I tested it out and won quite a few, and I also have it to where I was beating esper deathblade. That was the toughest match before. It also has much better answers to show and tell decks as well.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest (1)
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp (3)
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Tombstalker

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Snuff Out
3 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Karakas

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Is Abrupt Decay a doable main or sb card???

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

[thecrav]

Is Abrupt Decay a doable main or sb card???

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

The post directly above yours has 3 in the main, so I'd say it's pretty doable.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

We might have a new playable creature with Hooting Mandrills, thoughts?

[exallium]

We might have a new playable creature with Hooting Mandrills, thoughts?

I'm not sure if the deck wants this AND goyf AND tombstalker... and I think Stalker is straight up better than this

[Richard Cheese]

I'm not sure if the deck wants this AND goyf AND tombstalker... and I think Stalker is straight up better than this

I think it wants all three, but I don't think it can fuel the graveyard fast and consistently enough to run all three. Might still warrant some testing with Grisly Salvage though. Maybe up the green sources a bit and run a split of this and Stalker?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

deleted

[maharis]

Delve creatures have some nice synergy with Deed and Grisly Salvage/Commune with the Gods. I like Commune because it finds Deed or Recurring Nightmare if you want it, or other powerful enchantments (OK, Sylvan in your Deed deck is probably not ideal, but it's still sweet). Seems like it could be a sort of Nic Fit-style strategy without the dependence on Veteran Explorer. Tombstalker and Mandrills are nice beatings on an empty board. Still get to play Decay and handkill.

[KobeBryan]

Remember this deck was missing a beater. We may have a new one with that BG sorcery which copies the highest power of your creatures.

I know its conditional, but this deck drops goyfs pretty quick and fast. same with a stalker.

[Chatto]

Remember this deck was missing a beater. We may have a new one with that BG sorcery which copies the highest power of your creatures.

I know its conditional, but this deck drops goyfs pretty quick and fast. same with a stalker.

Kin-Tree Invocation... I like the idea, seems legit. Perhaps a three-of?

[tescrin]

Drown in Filth seems ok between fetchlands and the format being full of small critters. Grisly Salvage or Filth seem fine if you put Loam in the deck. Darkblast is good delve fuel, and assuming you like playing jank, Shambling Shell is ok against Miracles or any attrition deck; simply because you have a beater every turn that can't be plow'd. I had tested it in a janky Jund brew and it finished games out under Pfire engines. Having synergy with all of those dredged cards would be nice.

I think a loam Mandrills, Goyf, DRS, Stalker deck sounds fun until you hit a RiP deck.

[Captain Hammer]

Why is the discussion here dead, with Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Phyrexian Obliterator and Abrupt Decay, this deck is more powerful and more viable than it has ever been...

Deck Name: Su Black
// Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

I'm still debating Sylvan Library vs. Sensei's Divining Top so if you think one is better than the other for this deck, I would love to hear your input.

[jtos84]

I had a lot of success with a similar list that used Death's Shadow. I will have to try out Tasigur and see if the list is viable.

[Kanti]

Top seems better on account of it dodging your Deeds.

[Chatto]

How good is Liliana? I know she's good, but is she good enough at this moment?

Is there anyway you would include DD/ Stage? I really like that one as a 'taadaa'!

[dameus]

I think this is a fun deck

Suggestions:
Hooting Mandrills over Tasigur
Grisly Salvage works well w/ Goyf and Delver critters
I wouldn't MD Deed
Waste Not seems like it's worth a try
I prefer Oona's Prowler over Nighthawk (mainly on cost), but it's a close decision

[damionblackgear]

I'm thinking about jumping back into magic for a little bit. I've been a die-hard non-blue player and am thinking of jumping back in with Eva Green. The last time I played Eva was 2010... and it was only one time. I've gone over the last 10 or so pages of this thread for ideas and theory but I'm wondering about Deathrite Shaman. It seems slow, and more control based than something I'd like to use for tempo. I was looking at Nimble Mongoose (hard to remove beater) and Fume Spitter (assist removal) as well. I'm just not sure about devoting more slots to green or how much of an impact a 1/1 is going to be.

My current list for reference.

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
1 Nature's Claim
1 Reanimate
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Winter Orb
3 Bitterblossom
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phyrexian Obliterator


Quick explanation/theory behind current maindeck's oddball choices.

Oona's Prowler - quick and efficient beater.
Dark Ritual - quick mana to provide temporary acceleration into something more advanced.
Reanimate - allows for reuse of a creature, combos with prowler's ability to cheat in creatures, and allows for opponent's creatures to become possible threats.

I'm avoiding creature's like Death's Shadow as they take too long to come online. I'd like my creatures to have an impact if they're able to come into play on the first turn. Mongoose has a mid-late impact as a beater and an early game threat potential. Spitter provides a little more removal (which I'm lacking, but it's suicide so...).

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

nvm

[snorlaxcom]

Why is the discussion here dead, with Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, Phyrexian Obliterator and Abrupt Decay, this deck is more powerful and more viable than it has ever been...

Deck Name: Su Black
// Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

I'm still debating Sylvan Library vs. Sensei's Divining Top so if you think one is better than the other for this deck, I would love to hear your input.

3X deed goes against most of your threats, but then again you may be anticipating a miracles meta. Deed pairs well with Tombstalker and he can be played in multiples, unlike Tasigur, and even better vs counterbalance. I do like the synergy with Tasigur and DRS where you can drain or gain life in board stalls while making Tasigur's ability close to a regrowth. 4X Obliterator seems a bit much on the manabase and I can easily imagine it as dead weight in your hand. 2 should be enough. Life gain goes well with library and you have more things to do with your mana than top every turn. Letting you actually draw extra cards allows you to hit land drops/waste, feed liliana and DRS/delve, and find sb cards while saving your mana for action. Library also dodges Revoker. More legendary cards can be trimmed like an Urborg and a Jitte so you have less of a liability for opening hands and improved muligans.

I'd do:
-1Urborg, -1Tasigur, -2Obliterator, -1Jitte, -3 Deed, -2 Top
+1waste, +2Nighthawk, +2Tombstalker, +3Library, +2flex(discard/removal/threat/preboard card)

Think about switching one or two black fetches to green so you can play Decay off a forest more consistently vs bloodmoon or just so you can play your hand. Dismember is a reasonable supplementary removal spell.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@Captain Hammer, @jtos84, @damionblackgear: have you been testing? Any findings, thoughts, comments, updates, results?

[Zirath]

Here's a list I was working on:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Tombstalker

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dismember

3 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sinkhole
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

It felt pretty powerful.

[KobeBryan]

Here's a list I was working on:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Tombstalker

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dismember

3 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sinkhole
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

It felt pretty powerful.

Problem. 4 delve creatures

[Chatto]

Well, i like the idea of toying around with straight BG. Here is what I was thinking about:

2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Disfigure
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Forest
6 Swamp

Some explanation: this is what I call my basic shell. There is too much discard already (I know), and perhaps too little removal. Liliana is pretty sweet, but right now I don't think she's worth the slots. If I would fit her in, I would so by swapping her with IoK. I also like the idea of Extirpate. Combined with the discard (obviously) you could get some high value out of it: a lot of decks are low on wincons, taking some more could be backbreaking.

Any help/ advice is appreciated.

[Zirath]

Problem. 4 delve creatures

Most of the other lists are running 3 as is. If that's really a problem, then cut one for something. I honestly never had a problem casting any of them. You do not have to Delve all the colorless away to cast creatures in a 20 land deck with 0 Daze.

[KobeBryan]

Most of the other lists are running 3 as is. If that's really a problem, then cut one for something. I honestly never had a problem casting any of them. You do not have to Delve all the colorless away to cast creatures in a 20 land deck with 0 Daze.

Not the matter of being able to cast eventually. Its the problem with it sitting in hand until you get the ability to cast.

Please document how often that happens.

[beez]

I like the idea of this as a fun side deck, and have played a few games with it recently . Though I do own 4 Bayou's from my Loam Pox build, I don't have Goyfs and would not get them just for this deck, so I put together a build that skews to the black a bit more and actually makes some advantage of not having Goyf with the ability to delve and Shaman away at graves with impunity.

The BUG decks can throw a lot of cantrips at the delve ability, whereas here the grave buildup will not fill so fast but also doesn't have to worry about keeping Goyfs power up. In fact keeping the yards empty for opposing Goyfs is a strategy. Lilliana can help fill the grave for delve, and at least give you an asymmetrical advantage over most opponents in that regard when she is out. So 4 delve creatures hasn't seemed too much in this particular build yet. 2 Murderous Cut's might be. Perhaps I may drop one delve creature. Further play will help see if one needs to be a Dismember or Disfigure. It does suck to hold a couple in your hand, but it sucks to have a big fat graveyard and no delve creatures too. The tiny bit of ramp combines well with the delve to get some things out early. It is grave dependant to some degree, but not really damaged by extraction effects though. RIP is the worst, but there are 4 Abrupt Decay's 2 Pulses main and 2 Grips in the board.

Meanwhile Bitterblossom begins to swamp the board in the place of Goyf. I have considered a couple of Cabal Therapies here as well. The life gain from Shaman can help some of the life loss from Blossom and the couple of Elves of Deep Shadow. But this does stick to the old Suicide spirit though. And the Blossom can form a wall for the Planeswalkers in the deck too.
Garruck Relentless is actually a house against Miracles too.

Golgari Delve



1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Angler
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Elves of Deep Shadow

2 Garruck Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
3 Bitterblossom

2 Murderous Cut
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Inquisition of Kozeliek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Side
2 Dismember
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus



EDIT: Should probably work a Scavenging Ooze in here too. And the Elves of Deep Shadow should probably be Birds of Paradise

[Zirath]

Not the matter of being able to cast eventually. Its the problem with it sitting in hand until you get the ability to cast.

Please document how often that happens.

I really did not have that happen very often. I didn't record it at all. If I were to test the deck, I would test it. I just haven't bothered to since I didn't test it very much. I put it out there so other people could try it and see if they could make progress with it.

In the case that 4 Delve creatures are too many, what would you replace the Stalkers for (or 1 and 1)?

I also considered Grisly Salvage since it powers Delve by itself.

[damionblackgear]

@Captain Hammer, @jtos84, @damionblackgear: have you been testing? Any findings, thoughts, comments, updates, results?

I've changed up a bit. Limited testing gave me the impression that I didn't have enough to deal with early turns and was to reliant on obliterator to land against aggressive decks. Control decks were also a bit interesting since I wanted to keep them in topdeck mode but miracles play from there so discard isn't the biggest help. I've adjusted to this.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
3 Swamp


I upped the swamp count to increase my chances of actually being able to cast an obliterator. I know that I can support more but I'd like to keep the thinning levels higher to improve draws throughout the game.

Funeral Charm was my answer for miracles (trigger on stack) and aggressive decks(removal/swampwalk). It hasn't been able to kill every T1 play but it does enough to be a solid 2 of for now. I had also looked at Ulcerate in this slot as well. Majority of the format's creatures wouldn't survive 3 but it's limited to creatures; I've always been a fan of options.

I don't really like Deathrite most of the time. It's slower, clunky and doesn't hit hard if I've got other things to do. Additionally it doesn't kill anything. It does however allow me to play a pseudo mana ramp spell for future turns. Because of the negatives I've looked and saw two others creatures that caught my eye.


Bloodsoaked Champion
Guul Draz Assassin


Both have their own Pros/Cons but I'm not sure of them. The issue is that if I remove the shamans, the chances of me casting an obliterator are lowered, drastically. If I swap them, I've got a more limited direction for the deck's ability to win (no reach).

Both of them are also able to be more aggressive earlier but require more mana to be fully utilized. Both allow me to not blow my hand against some of the other matches. Be it through allowing me to hold removal or creatures from removal(non-rfg).

Library has been a necessary evil from my testing. It's been slow and usually not used very much to draw extra cards but the selection has allowed me to attrition some of the other decks. I've been forcing myself to find an opportunity to take an extra card when I can just so that I get use to burning life.

Sideboard

1 Nature's Claim
1 Reanimate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Phyrexian Obliterator


A couple changes here. Winter Orb has been swapped with choke because I've been thinking of alternates to shaman. I liked the card and it made Miracles a bit easier of a match since it would turn Top activations into a wasted turn. I tended to like it more than Needle vs that match. They can store up but if they do then they're not taking advantage of their resources that are available. It also helped vs some of the midranged matches. Nic-Fit (real rock) for example tended to have huge issues with me stunting their abilities to play with all of their mana all the time. Typically, when paired with a Liliana, the game was pretty much over.

I decided that since I want turn zero graveyard hate (have to fight other people abusing my Prowlers) and had more than 4, Leyline of the Void was probably the better choice. It's harder for decks to remove and has an un-counterable effect. additionally, some people seem to have forgotten that this is a card and not planned an solution to one on the board... Can't say I'm surprised.

The board is 14 right now. I've had some thoughts on the last card(s) - I may change and not just add. Below are my notes for the spots. I'll give them a try but I feel they may be overcosted for the deck. We'll see over time though.

Consuming Vapors - Sorcery, 3B (4) | Rebound
Exile into Darkness - Sorcery, 4B (5) | Comes back if you have more cards in hand
Gatekeeper of Malakir - Creature — Vampire Warrior 2/2, BB (2) | Creature kicker is B
Grave Pact - Enchantment, 1BBB (4) | Multi-use, hard to get rid of.

[aznepyon7]

I've changed up a bit. Limited testing gave me the impression that I didn't have enough to deal with early turns and was to reliant on obliterator to land against aggressive decks. Control decks were also a bit interesting since I wanted to keep them in topdeck mode but miracles play from there so discard isn't the biggest help. I've adjusted to this.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
3 Swamp


I would consider dropping a single thoughtseize for the deathrite shaman. I know you mentioned that you don't like the shaman but it's a necessary evil for mana ramp as you stated, prevents opponents from abusing their DSR, and keeps your life from dropping too quickly as you will be burning life very quickly. It's particularly helpful in a more aggressive meta so maybe that's why you haven't been thinking it's that great. If you're adamant against adding DSR, maybe go up to 3 for Hymn again.

Also Library is house against Miracles. You can try playing a 3rd depending on your meta.

Also how has the reanimates been working for you?

[damionblackgear]

I would consider dropping a single thoughtseize for the deathrite shaman. I know you mentioned that you don't like the shaman but it's a necessary evil for mana ramp as you stated, prevents opponents from abusing their DSR, and keeps your life from dropping too quickly as you will be burning life very quickly. It's particularly helpful in a more aggressive meta so maybe that's why you haven't been thinking it's that great. If you're adamant against adding DSR, maybe go up to 3 for Hymn again.

Also Library is house against Miracles. You can try playing a 3rd depending on your meta.

Also how has the reanimates been working for you?

I wanted to try out your suggestions before I actually replied but I ran into an issue of having too many accelerators with the 4th shaman. The extra reach was nice but I typically didn't have enough land to take advantage of more that 2 Shaman in play unless I didn't want to use the card in my hand.

Library was nice but it was one of those things that didn't really advance me more. I was nice to know another card to pitch to Lili though.

Reanimate has been pretty nice. I've forced a lot of Gristlebrands to the yard and pulled them back. Additionally the cheating in of an obliterator on Turn 1 has been pretty much a game ender. I've started looking at the other demon though... Can't think of his name and I'm short on time to look it up... it's the one that draws them a card every turn.

======

Addition - May 30th, 2015

I still haven't brought this to a tournament. I've been running rock in it's place. Testing still with friends.

Overall, I've cut back down to 2 Library. the third seemed like I wanted to be more controlling. Still testing out the 3 options in the 1cc creature slot. Nothing really changing in opinion. Want all three but only want 1 of them :(

Also trying Maelstrom Pulse in place of open sideboard slot and Nature's claim. Going to try Explosive's next. Have a bad feeling about that though. Still going to try it.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Does anyone know if nitewolf9 (the original author of this thread) is still around? I've pm'ed him but no response yet. Testing and getting to know this deck and perhaps the primer could be expanded, specifically for sideboarding against the newer archetypes.

[Esper3k]

I still see him post from time to time so he's still around.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Spending more and more time with this deck, with approx. 20 games online versus Dredge, UR Delver, Canadian Threshold, Affinity, Lands and Storm and a few rogue decks. Better than 50% against all of them, except Threshold but that was down to a major brainfreeze on my part. Of course, it's a very small sample size and no Omni, BUG, DnT, Miracles or Elves yet but happy with the Storm, Lands and Dredge matchups.


//22 Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//22 Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Reanimate
2 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

//16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Oona's Prowler
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tarmogoyf

//Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke


Thinking about going to 21 lands due to the relatively low mana curve as well as the DRS and Dark Ritual ramps. Keep y'all posted

[KobeBryan]

Spending more and more time with this deck, with approx. 20 games online versus Dredge, UR Delver, Canadian Threshold, Affinity, Lands and Storm and a few rogue decks. Better than 50% against all of them, except Threshold but that was down to a major brainfreeze on my part. Of course, it's a very small sample size and no Omni, BUG, DnT, Miracles or Elves yet but happy with the Storm, Lands and Dredge matchups.


//22 Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//22 Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Reanimate
2 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

//16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Oona's Prowler
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tarmogoyf

//Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke


Thinking about going to 21 lands due to the relatively low mana curve as well as the DRS and Dark Ritual ramps. Keep y'all posted

you should look into tasigur, gurmag, and/or hooting

[nedleeds]

You could also play Loam. pretty good with Wasteland, Liliana and to get you up to your 4 drops. You can wastelock internet rug delver also.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@nedleeds: there's only two 4 drops (the Obliterators) and my thinking is that the deck has a fast tempo strategy, hoping to get them into play quickly via Dark Ritual or Reanimate (via Funeral Charm or the Prowlers). Against fair decks, we're probably doomed if the game goes long enough to hard cast either of them! Against combo, well, we pray the primary disruption strategy in games 2 and 3 keeps us alive until we can start the mid-game beats.

@Kobe: delve cards with CMC of 6, 7 or 8 are a bit heavy for Reanimate. But I guess I could try to squeeze in a Tombstalker for the evasion.

Thanks for the feedback :-)

[KobeBryan]

Looks like we got a new toy in despoiler of souls

3/1 and gets to return to battlefield from GY.

Helps with the mana sinks too, allows us to play 4 dark confidants without having to flip a tombstalker or tasigur.

[Mr. Safety]

Spending more and more time with this deck, with approx. 20 games online versus Dredge, UR Delver, Canadian Threshold, Affinity, Lands and Storm and a few rogue decks. Better than 50% against all of them, except Threshold but that was down to a major brainfreeze on my part. Of course, it's a very small sample size and no Omni, BUG, DnT, Miracles or Elves yet but happy with the Storm, Lands and Dredge matchups.


//22 Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//22 Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Reanimate
2 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

//16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Oona's Prowler
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tarmogoyf

//Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke


Thinking about going to 21 lands due to the relatively low mana curve as well as the DRS and Dark Ritual ramps. Keep y'all posted

Just a thought, but the only thing Reanimate does that Unearth doesn't is get back obliterator (and opponent's creatures of course.) It may be an unacceptable loss of flexibility but it also cycles if you need to dig.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Just a thought, but the only thing Reanimate does that Unearth doesn't is get back obliterator (and opponent's creatures of course.) It may be an unacceptable loss of flexibility but it also cycles if you need to dig.

Your comment in parentheses is the key.... opponent's creatures are equally important. Earlier today, using the revised deck posted in the Rock thread, I took a Bloodghast from a Dredge gy (contributed 6 points of damage and Ichorid had no targets), a G1 Iona from a Reanimator gy and a KotR from Maverick.

Rules question: I Reanimate an Iona, Shield of Emeria from my opponent's graveyard. I choose "Red" as the color. Who can't play red spells? Me or my opponent?

[KobeBryan]

Your comment in parentheses is the key.... opponent's creatures are equally important. Earlier today, using the revised deck posted in the Rock thread, I took a Bloodghast from a Dredge gy (contributed 6 points of damage and Ichorid had no targets), a G1 Iona from a Reanimator gy and a KotR from Maverick.

Rules question: I Reanimate an Iona, Shield of Emeria from my opponent's graveyard. I choose "Red" as the color. Who can't play red spells? Me or my opponent?

If you reanimate, the creature is your creature, therefore the opponent cannot use red

[Chatto]

Does this list I am toying with in this thread?

Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf.
4 Dark Confidant.
4 Deathrite Shaman.
4 Vampire Hexmage.

Spells (16)
1 Dismember.
1 Life from the Loam.
2 Inquisition of Kozilek/ or (creature-)removal
4 Thoughtseize.
4 Crop Rotation.
4 Abrupt Decay.

Other (6)
2 Sylvan Library.
4 Oath of Nissa.

Lands (22)
1 Swamp.
1 Windswept Heath.
2 Forest.
3 Bayou.
3 Verdant Catacombs.
4 Thespian's Stage.
4 Dark Depths.
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[Mr. Safety]

I am also pursuing an aggressive bg list. It is similar to old style evagreen but with hexmage depths added. Lots of redundancy with a value plan to supplement the combo. I'm also toying with a heavy emphasis on basic lands...to blunt opposing wastelands and operate under blood moon.

4x deathrite
4x confidant
4x goyf
4x vampire hexmage

4x crop rotation
4x thoughtseize
1x duress
4x hymn
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
2x expedition map
2x sylvan library

4x verdant catacombs
1x misty rainforest
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
4x urborg
4x wasteland
3x swamp
2x forest
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x volrath's stronghold

Sideboard is in flux, but it has 3x pithing needle for sure, a pair of grips, and some diversified grave hate like bojuka bog and surgical extraction. From there I need to decide on how to finish it up. I think some number of liliana and deed is correct, but it might also be correct to use engineered plague x3-4. It has implications for many decks (d&t, elves, merfolk, goblins, lingering souls, true name nemesis, young pyromancer, etc.) I welcome any thoughts and I hope this is the right thread. It seems more aggro oriented and fair than turbo depths because of the split emphasis.

[Clark Kant]

I am also pursuing an aggressive bg list. It is similar to old style evagreen but with hexmage depths added. Lots of redundancy with a value plan to supplement the combo. I'm also toying with a heavy emphasis on basic lands...to blunt opposing wastelands and operate under blood moon.

4x deathrite
4x confidant
4x goyf
4x vampire hexmage

4x crop rotation
4x thoughtseize
1x duress
4x hymn
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
2x expedition map
2x sylvan library

4x verdant catacombs
1x misty rainforest
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
4x urborg
4x wasteland
3x swamp
2x forest
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x volrath's stronghold

Sideboard is in flux, but it has 3x pithing needle for sure, a pair of grips, and some diversified grave hate like bojuka bog and surgical extraction. From there I need to decide on how to finish it up. I think some number of liliana and deed is correct, but it might also be correct to use engineered plague x3-4. It has implications for many decks (d&t, elves, merfolk, goblins, lingering souls, true name nemesis, young pyromancer, etc.) I welcome any thoughts and I hope this is the right thread. It seems more aggro oriented and fair than turbo depths because of the split emphasis.

Very cool list.

I would suggest playing Living Wish instead of Expedition Map. It costs less mana letting you combo a turn sooner, you can use it to get the depths combo piece or it can grab a utility creature as well.

Living Wish is much more flexible than either Expedition Map or Crop Rotation, so it's never a dead card and you can get away with running a full playset.

[Mr. Safety]

Very cool list.

I would suggest playing Living Wish instead of Expedition Map. It costs less mana letting you combo a turn sooner, you can use it to get the depths combo piece or it can grab a utility creature as well.

Living Wish is much more flexible than either Expedition Map or Crop Rotation, so it's never a dead card and you can get away with running a full playset.

I like Living Wish, and I think that with the emphasis on basic lands I could pull it off. Map works under blood moon, but so do basic forests. I'm not sure if I like the deckbuilding restraints from a wish package however. I would want all 4 hexmages main in order to have a higher rate of a natural turn two combo (hexmage, urborg, plus depths/crop rotation.) Sideboarding becomes trickier with a wish package...everything you want costs an extra 2 mana, in exchange for g1 flexibility.

I'll keep it in mind, but for now the plan is to divide attention and conquer. It will be hard to deal with both the threat of the combo while also trying to fend off drs/bob/goyf/hymn.

[dameus]

Isn't Into the North just straight up better than Expedition Map (esp. if you include a snow-covered basic or 2)?

I also think Grim Discovery deserves consideration. It can get both pieces of the combo back or another nice creature and land.

[ironclad8690]

Someone did well with a Gate-ish Eva Green-ish deck at the most recent legacy classic:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Woodland Cemetery

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinisphere

[Esper3k]

Yeah I saw that. I'm curious about how its matchups went.

[lavafrogg]

Mr. Safety; still championing BG midrange decks. What a hero.

[CptHaddock]

I'm kind of curious why this deck doesn't see much play. After watching someone play it at my LGS time after time it seems like it has decent matchups all around (barring combo ofc). Seems like if you just upgrade some of the cards to add drs, lilianna and decays to the list on the first page you have yourself a solid suicide black list. I think i'm going to try this list next week if I can get my hands on Phyrexian Obliterators, they're pretty expensive for a janky card.

4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
2 tombstalker
2 phyrexian obliterator

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 abrupt decay
3 lilianna of the veil

4 wasteland
8 fetch lands
3 bayou
6 swamp

Sideboard:
TBD

[KobeBryan]

I'm kind of curious why this deck doesn't see much play. After watching someone play it at my LGS time after time it seems like it has decent matchups all around (barring combo ofc). Seems like if you just upgrade some of the cards to add drs, lilianna and decays to the list on the first page you have yourself a solid suicide black list. I think i'm going to try this list next week if I can get my hands on Phyrexian Obliterators, they're pretty expensive for a janky card.

4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
2 tombstalker
2 phyrexian obliterator

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 abrupt decay
3 lilianna of the veil

4 wasteland
8 fetch lands
3 bayou
6 swamp

Sideboard:
TBD

discard sucks against miracles.

[Mr. Safety]

Mr. Safety; still championing BG midrange decks. What a hero.

Thanks?

[Skriger]

Hey everyone!

Been creepin' on this thread but finally got a build together I do enjoy. It's a very aggressive build utilizing Smuggler's Copter and Grim Flayer. My friend and I have been developing it for a few months. Check it out. Give me some insight and let me know what you think!

B/G EverCopter

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Grim Flayer
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Nameless Inversion
4x Smuggler's Copter
2x Swamp
2x Sylvan Library
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Thoughtseize
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard - Always changes for Meta.
1x Disfigure
2x Dread of Night
1x Fatal Push
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Obliterator
3x Phyrexian Revoker


Link to deck @ TappedOut.net (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/evercopter/)

[kinda]

Looks solid, why inquisition over therapy?

[Skriger]

Looks solid, why inquisition over therapy?

I've tossed around Cabal Therapy and it's an easy one to slot in if you wish. I usually prefer inquisition because if it's in opening hand, I can still hit something without knowing their hand without blind calling cards.

[Soldier of Fortune]

The only reason I’m writing this is because this thread hasn’t seen love in almost a year.

I was going to play Aluren at my local tonight but then I remember how much I loathe casting Brainstorm and blue cards so I decided to give this old school deck a try.

4 Drs
4 Bob
4 Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper
1 Scooze

2 LotV
1 LtLH
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte

4 Decay
3 Hymn
3 Edict
3 Push
3 Tseize
1 IoK
1 Pulse

1 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg ToY

Round 1 DreadStill W 2-1 - I get paired against my buddy who also happens to be playing an older deck. Turns out a 12/12 on turn two isn’t good enough nowadays in the face of Decays and Pushes. RIP Dreadnought, we hardly knew you. I win game one pretty easily, lose game two due to mana screw and win game three cause my buddy didn’t draw anything action.

Round 2 Eldrazi Stompy W 2-1 - Being on the play was huge as it allowed me to resolve a Drs before CotV came down. I waste him a couple times and then I beat down with Nighthawk equipped with Jitte. Game 2 I get stuck in two lands and can’t recover and game three was similar to game one.

Round 3 Czech Pile L 0-2 - Both games we both end up in top deck mode but you can’t out grind the cantrip cartel.

Round 4 Canadian Thresh - W 2-0 - This match felt unloseable. The edicts, cheap removal and strong mana base are what RUGs worst nightmares are made of.

Ended the night 3-1, deck was enjoyable. If you’re looking to have fun at your local, I’d totally recommend this deck.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah it’s an awesome deck well suited for this meta.

As for the posted list immediately above, I would make the following changes
-4 Nighthawk
-1 Jitte
-1 Edict
-1 Push
-1 Pulse
-1 Wasteland
+4 Gifted Aetherborn
+2 Goyf
+1 Hymn
+1 Hexmage
+1 Obliterator

Lowers the curve, ups the threat count, Obliterator is an auto win against any deck that doesn’t play StP and Hexmage deals with a ton of cards including Planeswalkers

[Megadeus]

Any thoughts on running like an eldrazi eva green deck? I kind of ran one awhile back that was pretty sweet and had decent success.

[ntropy]

Any thoughts on running like an eldrazi eva green deck? I kind of ran one awhile back that was pretty sweet and had decent success.

Sounds like you're the one with thoughts on it. Wanna share your list?

[Megadeus]

Well this is the list I posted in the 2 Green thread, but it's kind of Eva Green like.


Maindeck (61)
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Shriekmaw
3 Fatal Push
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 To the Slaughter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Hashep Oasis
2 Hostile Desert
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Thragtusk
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Batterskull
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague

[Soldier of Fortune]

Yeah it’s an awesome deck well suited for this meta.

As for the posted list immediately above, I would make the following changes
-4 Nighthawk
-1 Jitte
-1 Edict
-1 Push
-1 Pulse
-1 Wasteland
+4 Gifted Aetherborn
+2 Goyf
+1 Hymn
+1 Hexmage
+1 Obliterator

Lowers the curve, ups the threat count, Obliterator is an auto win against any deck that doesn’t play StP and Hexmage deals with a ton of cards including Planeswalkers

Def agree with all those changes. I was just wanting to play somewhat of an outdated list that week.

[kinda]

Well this is the list I posted in the 2 Green thread, but it's kind of Eva Green like.


Maindeck (61)
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Shriekmaw
3 Fatal Push
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 To the Slaughter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Hashep Oasis
2 Hostile Desert
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Thragtusk
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Batterskull
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague

I'm working on a similar deck, posted it in the sylvan plug thread buy it probaby doesn't belong there. Have you tested it yet?

[Megadeus]

I'm working on a similar deck, posted it in the sylvan plug thread buy it probaby doesn't belong there. Have you tested it yet?

I played it at a few local weeklies to 3 3-1 finishes I believe and a monthly with a 1-2 drop. It's been awhile since then don't quite remember what the match ups were. I do remember games where a turn 1 3 mana spell won me games, and I did dominate a lands player with a turn 1 crucible snake. That and against elves turn 1 engineered plague was really good followed by a thought knot.

[royka]

It is unique enough. Besides you swap a one shot 3 damage of red death to a mostrosity which is tarmogoyf. Nuff said.

[maharis]

Took this thru a league:

Creaures (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells (29)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition Of Kozilek
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Uneart
4 Mishra’s Bauble
2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (17)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pernicious Deed

1-2 Aggro Loam
0-2 Goblins
2-1 Storm
2-1 Infect
0-2 Show & Tell

Not great results but fun. Aggro Loam and Goblins kind of are just this deck but better. Grim Flayer is the real deal though. Gonna keep trying.

[Megadeus]

Assassins Trophy may have a place here? It's a vindicate against delver decks which is sick. Otherwise more flexible removal is great. I guess I always feel like this deck is good, but it probably isn't.

[Mr. Safety]

Assassins Trophy may have a place here? It's a vindicate against delver decks which is sick. Otherwise more flexible removal is great. I guess I always feel like this deck is good, but it probably isn't.

It is good, but maybe not good enough

[KobeBryan]

Took this thru a league:

Creaures (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells (29)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition Of Kozilek
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Uneart
4 Mishra’s Bauble
2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (17)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pernicious Deed

1-2 Aggro Loam
0-2 Goblins
2-1 Storm
2-1 Infect
0-2 Show & Tell

Not great results but fun. Aggro Loam and Goblins kind of are just this deck but better. Grim Flayer is the real deal though. Gonna keep trying.

Wtf...thats my modern deck list

[lavafrogg]

Well, this is a necro but I have picked this classic up as my “fun” deck, I’m playing lands “seriously” and want something to play occasionally to keep things fresh. This is what I am starting with tomorrow:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fatal Push
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Nantuko Shade
5 Swamp
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bayou
4 Sinkhole

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Marsh Casualties
3 Choke
3 Thorn of Amethyst

The changes from the OG list are -Tombstalker +Dark Confidant, I only own 3 Tombstalker so I could get the 4th and try it out.

Also

- 3 Seal of Primordium -4 Snuff out

+3 Fatal Push +4 Abrupt Decay

There are a ton of cards I want to try out to try and modernize the list, but I am starting OG

Edit: immediately put Tombstalker back in

[Mr. Safety]

I can't help but love OG Eva-Green, always had a soft spot for Bg agro-control. I would probably cut a Dark Ritual and an Abrupt Decay for a couple Sylvan Libraries, but other than that this thing is like Raquel Welch in a fur bikini: classic and sexy.

[KobeBryan]

Well, this is a necro but I have picked this classic up as my “fun” deck, I’m playing lands “seriously” and want something to play occasionally to keep things fresh. This is what I am starting with tomorrow:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fatal Push
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Nantuko Shade
5 Swamp
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bayou
4 Sinkhole

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Marsh Casualties
3 Choke
3 Thorn of Amethyst

The changes from the OG list are -Tombstalker +Dark Confidant, I only own 3 Tombstalker so I could get the 4th and try it out.

Also

- 3 Seal of Primordium -4 Snuff out

+3 Fatal Push +4 Abrupt Decay

There are a ton of cards I want to try out to try and modernize the list, but I am starting OG

Edit: immediately put Tombstalker back in

where do you play legacy in Arizona?

Also, 2 tombstalkers, and find a way for 4 dark confidants.

[lavafrogg]

where do you play legacy in Arizona?

Also, 2 tombstalkers, and find a way for 4 dark confidants.

We are playing at Amazing Discoveries Gilbert, there is Legacy most nights in AZ...

I went 1-2 in a small 3 round league with 14 players(they just do 3 rounders on weekdays), losing to Storm and Mono Red... games against storm were super close and the games against Mono Red were basically all about the die roll as we both did good things turn 1.

I never got to a fast dark ritual hand in any game... which would have changed things.

[KobeBryan]

Got a new toy in eva green. Is it good enough?

[Pittplayer]

Got a new toy in eva green. Is it good enough?

Care to tell a bit more? Like what card you are talking about? Is this a guessing game?

[KobeBryan]

Care to tell a bit more? Like what card you are talking about? Is this a guessing game?

In legacy, there's usually only 1-2 cards playable that enter the format from a new set.

Much less from 2 colors.

[Mr. Safety]

In legacy, there's usually only 1-2 cards playable that enter the format from a new set.

Much less from 2 colors.

New 3 mana 7/6 zombie dinosaur? Or the elf that tutors lands?

[KobeBryan]

New 3 mana 7/6 zombie dinosaur? Or the elf that tutors lands?

Could be both

[damionblackgear]

Could be both

I personally don't see them as very useful. My reasons...

The Dino doesn't have a way to push its damage through (trample, flying, horsemanship, etc) or a negative for the opponent. I want my higher cost bodies to push through tough matches without much help. I don't think it can do that.

The Elf... I could swap out my rits for mox to better enable his pump but it's still typically me exposing my manabase turn 1... for a 1/1. While it does offer possible punishment for taking advantage of that exposure, it does not do it fast enough to justify the risk. For the second ability, the later the game the more useful its second ability becomes (filtering draw) but, being a tempo deck, I don't want the game going later. You could always re-tool into a more control/prison build but then you're not really Eva at that point.

[KobeBryan]

I personally don't see them as very useful. My reasons...

The Dino doesn't have a way to push its damage through (trample, flying, horsemanship, etc) or a negative for the opponent. I want my higher cost bodies to push through tough matches without much help. I don't think it can do that.

The Elf... I could swap out my rits for mox to better enable his pump but it's still typically me exposing my manabase turn 1... for a 1/1. While it does offer possible punishment for taking advantage of that exposure, it does not do it fast enough to justify the risk. For the second ability, the later the game the more useful its second ability becomes (filtering draw) but, being a tempo deck, I don't want the game going later. You could always re-tool into a more control/prison build but then you're not really Eva at that point.

I tried the hexdrinker, bob, goyf, and the dinosaur combo of creatures and the hexdrinker was bolt on sight so far

The late game dark rituals was also helpful with the level ups

[KobeBryan]

I really miss playing this deck. Anyone have an upgraded decklist so I can start from there.

[Ralf]

I really miss playing this deck. Anyone have an upgraded decklist so I can start from there.

I played this pile to some good results.

The SB might need to be revisited to be more meta oriented.

But this is so much fun.

6 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb

4 Gilded Goose
3 Death's Shadow
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Murderous Rider

4 Soul Spike
3 Dark Ritual
2 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Geth's Verdict
1 Empty the Pits

4 Thoughtseize
4 Infernal Contract
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cruel Bargain
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse


SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Lost Legacy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Death's Shadow
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[KobeBryan]

I played this pile to some good results.

The SB might need to be revisited to be more meta oriented.

But this is so much fun.

6 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb

4 Gilded Goose
3 Death's Shadow
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Murderous Rider

4 Soul Spike
3 Dark Ritual
2 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Geth's Verdict
1 Empty the Pits

4 Thoughtseize
4 Infernal Contract
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cruel Bargain
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse


SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Lost Legacy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Death's Shadow
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

Was playing this deck for fun. There just isn't enough firepower compared to the new cards printed. Dreadhorde, young pyro all eclipse the cards in this color

[Glass House]

Kobe, from what I understand you want raw power? In that case, have you ever considered Spawn of Mayhem? I think it is currently the best aggro creature for Black in the 3 mana slot. Also worth noting that it combines neatly with Dark Confidant and Death's Shadow for the true Suicide Black experience. :tongue:

[Ralf]

Was playing this deck for fun. There just isn't enough firepower compared to the new cards printed. Dreadhorde, young pyro all eclipse the cards in this color

In my book, they still all die to Abrupt Decay.
Tweaking numbers can be a solution (for example to give it a fresher look):


6 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb

4 Gilded Goose
3 Death's Shadow
3 Plague Engineer
2 Murderous Rider

4 Soul Spike
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dark Ritual
3 Geth's Verdict
1 Empty the Pits

4 Thoughtseize
4 Infernal Contract
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cruel Bargain

[KobeBryan]

Kobe, from what I understand you want raw power? In that case, have you ever considered Spawn of Mayhem? I think it is currently the best aggro creature for Black in the 3 mana slot. Also worth noting that it combines neatly with Dark Confidant and Death's Shadow for the true Suicide Black experience. :tongue:

I really just want to play sink hole

[Mr. Safety]

So what cards reward you for playing Sinkhole? I was thinking that in order to make the deck good, you really need 3 mana on turn 2. That way you can pair discard with land destruction. If you went the Death's Shadow route, Elves of Deep Shadow are a good choice and a way to augment Birds of Paradise. Both would support Phyrexian Obliterator, which would be pretty badass in the current environment.

Alternatively, you could go full-on jank and play 4x Urborg + 4x Spreading Algae. Urborg supports heavy black decks that splash another color and combos with a 1-mana Sinkhole.

So maybe this to start:
4x birds of paradise
2x elves of deep shadow
4x Death's shadow
2x plague engineer
4x phyrexian obliterator

4x thoughtseize
4x sinkholes
4x spreading algae
Xx fatal push
Xx abrupt decay
2x sylvan library

21-23 lands

Something that causes Obliterator to fight creatures would also be pretty good, maybe Prey Upon.

[KobeBryan]

Just play tested with this deck. Obliterator sat in my hand FOREVER, not worth playing. The 4 black mana took too long to get out. I was not playing dark ritual so that may be an issue since I was playing birds.

I never really want to cast infernal contract either since it took so much life out of me. Very dangerous.

[Glass House]

Maybe you could try Treacherous Blessing? Doesn't nuke your life total, but still provides life loss to feed Death's Shadow.

[Mr. Safety]

Just play tested with this deck. Obliterator sat in my hand FOREVER, not worth playing. The 4 black mana took too long to get out. I was not playing dark ritual so that may be an issue since I was playing birds.

I never really want to cast infernal contract either since it took so much life out of me. Very dangerous.

Yeah, dark Ritual seems important for the Obliterators. Probably not worth 4 copies either. I tested a little bit, loved Elves and I added Birterblossom and a Jitte. I'll try some Rituals. Ritual makes early Sinkholes a lot more reasonable, too. Confidant seems important, as does Sylvan Library.

[Jofiel]

Yeah, dark Ritual seems important for the Obliterators. Probably not worth 4 copies either. I tested a little bit, loved Elves and I added Birterblossom and a Jitte. I'll try some Rituals. Ritual makes early Sinkholes a lot more reasonable, too. Confidant seems important, as does Sylvan Library.

Hi I don't think Confidant is important. It's risky, becouse of losing life very quickly. Death's Shadow isn't sexy for this deck. It has no trample. Gatekeeper - so so. It hasn't instant speed. I like sinkholes, but Assassin's Trophy could destroy a land and or other permanent. Vampire Nigthawk are good but... you could chose also Engineer or Hypnotic Specter.

So my Proposition is:

Lands:

4x Bayou (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bayou?fromqs=true)
1x Castle Locthwain (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Castle%20Locthwain?fromqs=true) - draw in meta game is useful
1x Forest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest?fromqs=true) - you must be careful, becouse of Obliterator, but you need this Forest in case of using Wastelands (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland?fromqs=true) by your opponent
1x Lake of the Dead (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lake%20of%20the%20Dead?fromqs=true&printing=4704) - it's good in this deck, but maybe Karakas (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Karakas?fromqs=true), Maze of Ith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Maze%20of%20Ith?fromqs=true), Blast Zone (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Blast%20Zone?fromqs=true) or Mortuary Mire (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mortuary%20Mire?fromqs=true) do better work - it has to be tested. But if you want to use lands which don't have black you need 2-3 Urborgs (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth?fromqs=true). If you want to add them it will be nice to increase land quantity to 22-24.
1x Overgrown Tomb (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Tomb?fromqs=true) - Becouse 4 Bayou (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bayou?fromqs=true) could not be enough.
4x Snow-Covered Swamp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snow-Covered%20Swamp?fromqs=true)
4x Swamp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp?fromqs=true)
4x Verdant Catacombs (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Verdant%20Catacombs?fromqs=true) - I think 4 are fine. You could experiment with 6.

Creatures:

3x Asylum Visitor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Asylum%20Visitor?fromqs=true) - you could replace one by painfull Dark Confidant (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Confidant?fromqs=true), who can kill you or Sylvan Library (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sylvan%20Library?fromqs=true), but it hasn't 3 in ATQ.
4x Guul Draz Assassin (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Guul%20Draz%20Assassin?fromqs=true) - he is your black Mother of Runes (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mother%20of%20Runes?fromqs=true)
2x Hypnotic Specter (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Hypnotic%20Specter?fromqs=true) / Vampire Nighthawk (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vampire%20Nighthawk?fromqs=true), and new guy Murderous Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Murderous%20Rider%20%2F%2F%20Swift%20End?fromqs=true) - If Specters I'm thinking to use 3.
3x Nantuko Shade (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nantuko%20Shade?fromqs=true) / Tarmogoyf (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tarmogoyf?fromqs=true) - a lot of deck have a lot of graveyard hate.
2x Phyrexian Obliterator (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian%20Obliterator?fromqs=true) - best creature ever in black. I'm thinking to add one more.
1x Tombstalker (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tombstalker?fromqs=true) - I think it is still better than Anger (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gurmag%20Angler?fromqs=true), becouse Fish dosn't fly.
3x Plague Engineer (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Plague%20Engineer?fromqs=true&printing=44803) - very helpful beast. You need him with aggro decks.

Spells:

3x Dark Ritual (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Ritual?fromqs=true) - it is trouble if you can't use it in late game. In this deck you could use it a a trap for Nantuko or to level up Guul Draz or whatever.

4x Fatal Push (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Fatal%20Push?fromqs=true) - Swords to Plowshares (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares?fromqs=true) for Black. Other options for one B? Hmmm... too risky - Vendetta (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendetta?fromqs=true).
4x Assassin's Trophy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Assassin%27s%20Trophy?fromqs=true) - Sinkhole (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sinkhole?fromqs=true) & better Abrupt Decay (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Abrupt%20Decay?fromqs=true) in one card, but we want to have Abrupt in this deck too, becouse of conterspells.
4x Thoughtseize (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize?fromqs=true) - yes, you need to have a chance to discard anything you want. Duress (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Duress?fromqs=true) and Inquisition of Kozilek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek?fromqs=true) are weaker, Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true) reather not fot this deck.
3x Hymn To Tourach (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach?fromqs=true) - discarding two to three cards with Dark Ritual in first turn - yes... can be crucial.
2x Unmask (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Unmask?fromqs=true) - this is your black Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true). You can't use 4, becouse if you want to do this you had to have min 8 cards which allow you to draw a new cards (like: Dream Salvage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dream%20Salvage?fromqs=true&printing=4637), Cling to Dust (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cling%20to%20Dust?fromqs=true&printing=48902), Sign in Blood (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sign%20in%20Blood?fromqs=true), Skeletal Scrying (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Skeletal%20Scrying?fromqs=true), Night's Whisper (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Night%27s%20Whisper?fromqs=true), Tainted Pact (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tainted%20Pact?fromqs=true&printing=9967)).

Other:
1x Umezawa's Jittle (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa%27s%20Jitte?fromqs=true) - you could use 2 if you want to.

Sideboard:
2x Choke (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Choke?fromqs=true) -after Thoughtseizes and being countered it's always nice to shot down Islands.
2x Dystopia (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dystopia?fromqs=true) - hmmm a lot of decks don't like it very much. :p
3x Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true) - it is very important gaveyard hate - decks which havn't black colour use it... :)
2x Abrupt Decay (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Abrupt%20Decay?fromqs=true) - becouse it could destroy a lot and can't be countered.
3x Extirpate (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Extirpate?fromqs=true) - better than Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) if you are playing black deck.
3x Sadistic Sacrament (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sadistic%20Sacrament?fromqs=true&printing=16496) - necessary if you want try to kill combo decks before they kill you.

Best. :)

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Ok, wild idea, please feel free to tell me if this is too jank. But, astrolabe and snow permanents are rampant. Can we play Lurrus (in the main not as a companion) and freyalise's radiance as just a better choke? Sac it and replay it every turnhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200420/c1c852d0195557547852467284f21785.jpg

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

I like where your thinking is going, but I think there are better options. For that mana investment there are much better cards at fighting Miracles and SnowControl.

Sylvan Library
Winter Orb
Choke


Orb requires you to have some sort of mana-denial plan, a low curve, and likely some sort of non-land mana booster (like Birds of Paradise.) Library just feeds you cards, or at least feeds you card quality with fetchlands. Choke costs an extra mana, but still does the job by locking down 2+ lands. In my experience against Snow-based decks they fetch Snow Covered Island the majority of the time, sometimes even having *only* SCI's on the field. Choke can still give you that absurd tempo-stall and let your threats take over.

On top of all that, the cumulative upkeep is really hard to work around. The goal should be to stifle opponents mana while you continue developing. If you have to pay 2 the first turn, 4 the next turn, then sacrifice your enchantment, you are stifled yourself. If you only plan on having it for 2 turns, those turns have to really count. In the right situations it might be incredible, but I'd rather have 'good/great' in all situations rather than 'crazy good in some/useless in others'.

[Evilpurplemonkey]

I like where your thinking is going, but I think there are better options. For that mana investment there are much better cards at fighting Miracles and SnowControl.

Sylvan Library
Winter Orb
Choke


Orb requires you to have some sort of mana-denial plan, a low curve, and likely some sort of non-land mana booster (like Birds of Paradise.) Library just feeds you cards, or at least feeds you card quality with fetchlands. Choke costs an extra mana, but still does the job by locking down 2+ lands. In my experience against Snow-based decks they fetch Snow Covered Island the majority of the time, sometimes even having *only* SCI's on the field. Choke can still give you that absurd tempo-stall and let your threats take over.

On top of all that, the cumulative upkeep is really hard to work around. The goal should be to stifle opponents mana while you continue developing. If you have to pay 2 the first turn, 4 the next turn, then sacrifice your enchantment, you are stifled yourself. If you only plan on having it for 2 turns, those turns have to really count. In the right situations it might be incredible, but I'd rather have 'good/great' in all situations rather than 'crazy good in some/useless in others'.So the thought on freyalise's radiance isn't to continuously pay the cumulative upkeep. The list I'm putting together is running several lurrus in the main, as well as unearth, which would let you just sac and replay radiance every turn since there's a good chance lurrus will stick.

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[KobeBryan]

So the thought on freyalise's radiance isn't to continuously pay the cumulative upkeep. The list I'm putting together is running several lurrus in the main, as well as unearth, which would let you just sac and replay radiance every turn since there's a good chance lurrus will stick.

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If we want to play lurrus, you need to find a way to bin creatures. Lurrus isn't all too great when theres nothing in the graveyard. so this guy will only be good towards the mid to late game. With that said, if we are able to continuously fill the yard, it may be a good choice to play.

That is why i find this card better in the sideboard to companion this baby instead because turns 1 to 10, we don't want to be casting him.

[Mr. Safety]

If we want to play lurrus, you need to find a way to bin creatures. Lurrus isn't all too great when theres nothing in the graveyard. so this guy will only be good towards the mid to late game. With that said, if we are able to continuously fill the yard, it may be a good choice to play.

That is why i find this card better in the sideboard to companion this baby instead because turns 1 to 10, we don't want to be casting him.

Collective Brutality comes to mind as one of the better ways to get pure card advantage with Lurrus.

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Collective Brutality comes to mind as one of the better ways to get pure card advantage with Lurrus.Brutality, regisaur, Liliana is what I'm running to bin things

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[KobeBryan]

Collective Brutality comes to mind as one of the better ways to get pure card advantage with Lurrus.

This shouldn't be the way this card should be used. Lurrus is supposed to give you card advantage by being able to cast spells from your hand as well as from your grave yard.

If you use collective to bin creatures just so you can cast with Lurrus, that would just defeat the purpose of the card and its card advantage it generates.

That is why i suggested using a red splash for these 1 cmc creatures to bomb on people.

[Mr. Safety]

This shouldn't be the way this card should be used. Lurrus is supposed to give you card advantage by being able to cast spells from your hand as well as from your grave yard.

If you use collective to bin creatures just so you can cast with Lurrus, that would just defeat the purpose of the card and its card advantage it generates.

That is why i suggested using a red splash for these 1 cmc creatures to bomb on people.

You would be getting multiple modes of Brutality, which means you're spending one card to get several effects. If you are discarding things that can then be cast again later, it's card advantage. Brutality is an incredible tempo swing by killing a dude and disrupting their hand at the same time. Casting a discarded Dark Confidant/Sylvan Library/Elvish Reclaimer/Tarmogoyf a couple turns later seems pretty good to me. If you're never really losing the card to your graveyard, it's pure card advantage.

Yes, it's technically better to play a Confidant, make them waste a removal spell, then play Confidant again. But if you have them discard their removal spell, then still get your Confidant PLUS an extra mode on Brutality? I think that's better.

As an aside, I don't think there is a known 'way this card should be used' just yet. It's a brand new mechanic, it's confusing AF, and the full implications haven't been proven yet.

[H]

Samu-27 trying out a Dark Ritual build. (https://www.twitch.tv/marcomale) Live right now!

https://i.imgur.com/tDkFXC1.png

Bayous and Abrupt Decays are hiding. Leyline is sideboard and Lilis are main.

[KobeBryan]

Samu-27 trying out a Dark Ritual build. (https://www.twitch.tv/marcomale) Live right now!

https://i.imgur.com/tDkFXC1.png

Bayous and Abrupt Decays are hiding. Leyline is sideboard and Lilis are main.

I watched it at work...oko is too much.

[sdematt]

I watched it at work...oko is too much.

So Oko was not a fun time for this deck?

[KobeBryan]

So Oko was not a fun time for this deck?

Not one bit

[sdematt]

Not one bit

Have we considered running the Loose Goose?



4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Flayer
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shifting Ceratops (Fuck you, Blue!)
17

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Bitterblossom
2 Sylvan Library
12

4 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Collective Brutality
11

4 Bayou
8 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest
20
//

3 Choke
3 Winter Orb
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
X Whatever

Maybe it needs Veil of Summer, whatever. Just theorycrafting.

[KobeBryan]

Have we considered running the Loose Goose?



4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Flayer
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shifting Ceratops (Fuck you, Blue!)
17

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Bitterblossom
2 Sylvan Library
12

4 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Collective Brutality
11

4 Bayou
8 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest
20
//

3 Choke
3 Winter Orb
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
X Whatever

Maybe it needs Veil of Summer, whatever. Just theorycrafting.

i have a very basic eva green list with the hex drinkers and tombstalkers and bob.

haven't really played this deck much since the competition was nasty against this deck.

However, after looking at the new releases, two new cards are very interesting...archfiend's vessel, and village rites. I play on cockatrice a few games with the gate, unearth, bloodghast, and these two new cards. may be fun.

[lavafrogg]

i have a very basic eva green list with the hex drinkers and tombstalkers and bob.

haven't really played this deck much since the competition was nasty against this deck.

However, after looking at the new releases, two new cards are very interesting...archfiend's vessel, and village rites. I play on cockatrice a few games with the gate, unearth, bloodghast, and these two new cards. may be fun.

That’s kinda cute.

Sac to draw 2, unearth for a 5/5. Would work with Cabal therapy too.

Does seem like it could durdly pretty hard though

[streetMage]

Does everything...

https://www.cardkingdom.com/images/magic-the-gathering/modern-horizons-2/grist-the-hunger-tide-89166-medium.jpg

[KobeBryan]

Does everything...

https://www.cardkingdom.com/images/magic-the-gathering/modern-horizons-2/grist-the-hunger-tide-89166-medium.jpg

This is ok. Not as useful as the new hierarch. No more dead dark rituals late game

[lavafrogg]

This is ok. Not as useful as the new hierarch. No more dead dark rituals late game

Grief, Voidwalker and Ignoble could potentially make this deck playable again,

Either BG or BW should finally have about to at least be playable.

[Albarkhane]

I have been toying with a deck for some time and it now produces some decent results in small tournaments. However there is still lots of room for improvements.

It started as a aggro controle mono black but i wanted answers to some troublesome cards. I could have gone to the classic pikula deck (BW) but i like the versatility of abrupt decay so i went into a green splash instead. I tried the dark ritual and the chrome moxen but liked none of them so finally i tried the diamond moxen. They are much more interesting but they required lots of changes in the deck to have them fit properly. So here is the last iteration of it :

// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 16 Creature
2 Tourach, Dread Cantor
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Opposition Agent

// 4 Instant
4 Abrupt Decay

// 24 Land
2 Castle Locthwain
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Boseiju, Who Endures

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil

// 10 Sorcery
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime
2 Life from the Loam

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard is work in progress. As for the main deck, i am not sold at all about Castle Locthwain that look cute but i almost never use them to draw cards. I like the life from the loam but i am not sure at all they fit the plan (i could not test enough with them so far), i could put the chains of mephistopheles back in main deck instead. Vampire Nighthawk may look weird but are actually the best creatures in the deck (not counting Bob special mention ;) ) : they are a removal, a life gainer (dark confident + thoughtseize + fetch can be a lot in some match up) and a flying beater.

[Albarkhane]

Your deck is an interesting mix of Eva Green and Loam Pox tools (Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, Liliana, Mox). The Loam+Crime engine is much more controlling though, so I wonder how well it works with the black creatures.

Actually that is exactly what i am wondering. Loams have nice synergy but i am not really sure it fits the plan, namely something else could be more strong.
Basically, Loam is nice with wasteland and Boseiju (and allow raven crime) but could be just overkill.



Is Nighthawk Scavenger better than Vampire Nighthawk?


I have been away from Legacy for some time and i just recently saw that scavenger existed. They could be a nice upgrade. I will buy some and will test them as soon as i get them.



Does this want Dark Ritual? You have many good 3-mana plays that are devastating on turn 1 (Opposition Agent, Liliana, Nighthawk). Otherwise it's a bit obvious you have opposition agent when you leave 3 lands untapped.

The first iteration of that deck was playing 4 dark ritual but i was not so happy with them. I mean, they were doing good but not amazing. I removed them and tried chrome mox instead but i did not like them much (discard a black card that was mostly very useful to gain some speed was not worth it most of the time). So i decided to give a try to diamond moxen. They allow better access to green and lower the curve (because i play more lands) for Bob. Raven crime is interesting to get rid of those additional lands so it fits well.

[Reeplcheep]

I think you need a clearer idea of what you want to do. Slow depths uses the discard/bob part of the deck better (lower cmc and can end the game faster) and loam pox utilizes crime/loam (more raw discard and needs to get back lands) better.

What does this build offer you? You have these threats that want the dark ritual of monoB (voidwalker into discard, nightwalker or opposition agent) but then you have a separate package built around 2 mana (decay/mox/loam). If you want mox/loam you should run other cheaper threats. Imo crop rotation and hexmage, but it could be stuff like hexdrinker and elvish reclaimer.

[Albarkhane]

I have a very clear idea about my plan but maybe i should explain it. ;)

First, what is NOT my plan ?
- My plan is not to run dark depths combo. Slow depths or lands will do that much better than i would do with my core deck. I know that mox + loam is leaning toward that direction but that is not the plan at all. And that is the reason why i question if loam really has its place in my deck (loam is just some addition with nice synergy and not at all the core strategy).
- My plan is not a POX deck or any variation of it. I am using many disruption cards that are also used in POX but the reason is just i need some strong tools that black can provide but if better tools can be found i will change them of course. POX decks plan to disrupt opponent so much that he will decide he should have stayed in bed that day, then eventually kill him with whatever. I am using less disruption than POX and much more creatures.

So the plan now :
- Black has some nice creatures that are bear-like but carrying some added abilities (voidwalker, ...) that i find very interesting in the meta. I plan to win with them on the battlefield so basically i am playing a fair deck. Those creatures are in the 2-3 range for power and in the 2-3 range too for casting cost. That is much too slow to be a tempo deck so i need some controle and/or CA elements in my deck. Abilities on the creatures will help my plan but i will need more of course. So basically, strategy will be disruption and controle, and when path is clear enough, swing with those creatures.

The creature pack :
There can be other creatures of course, criteria is they should be some nice ability with legs. I find that playing about 16 creatures is a good balance as i want some board presence.
- Dauthi voidwalker : a great beater with evasion, useful anti-graveyard ability, good synergy with discard. Sometimes you can live the dream but i don't really count on that. It can't block and sometimes it is a real problem.
- Opposition agent : surprise blocker and beater with pseudo celerity, its ability is stronger if it can land quick (anti-fetch) and against some decks (blue, elves, entomb deck, ...). Leads to fun bluff by keeping 3 mana open now and then. Could be main or sideboard depending on expected meta but i like it as a main deck beater.
- Plague engineer : deathtouch makes it a great blocker and some sort of creature removal. His ability can be really strong against the right deck. I see it more in sideboard but could be main deck in the right meta.
- Tourach, dread cantor : can grow big with discard, synergy with chains of mephistopheles, protection against white is great. I would probably run more of it if it was not legendary.
- Dark confidant : requires a low curve (average cc = 1,15 ), the deck runs enough disruption that it is a nice beater quite often. CA is important for the deck. No need to say more about it i guess.
- Vampire nighthawk : Nighthawk scavenger is an obvious upgrade so it will be in instead. The only creature that has no special ability but it is sort of the glue that keeps the deck together. Deathtouch/lifelink/flying make it be some swiss knife. Gifted aetherborn was not kept because flying is important here.

Get some color :
Mono black is lacking some answers so i went for another color. White was possible and would have lead toward some Deadguy Ale deck. I chose the green way because of Abrupt Decay. It could be not the best choice but i find it interesting and leading toward something a bit different than what is played nowadays. It opens also other tools.

The business pack :
- Hymn to tourach for card advantage and thoughtseize for targetted discard. I also run 2 inquisition of Kozilek in sideboard either to add against combo or to switch with thoughtseize against burn-like decks.
- Liliana of the veil is versatile as creature removal and/or discard so a must include i think. I used to run 1 Liliana, the last hope too but i had to cut her.
- Chains of mephistopheles may look they are a sideboard card but i find them to be great against many decks in my meta. The synergy with Tourach, dread cantor is a real plus that gave me several games.
- Abrupt decay is a great answer for problematic cards.
- I used to run some Assassin's Trophy too (nice synergy with Opposition Agent) but i changed for Ratchet bomb that is a nice cure all too with less color requirement. I moved the bomb recently to sideboard (because of moxen) but they fit nicely in mainboard.
- Boseiju, who endures is useful especially post side and has no real drawback beside not being a basic land. it has nice synergy with opposition agent too.
- Castle Locthwain looks great on paper but i am quite disapointed with it. I almost never use it either because i have too many cards in hands or i have not enough mana or i am too low with life. Well, there is always something wrong. So it is on the watch list and could move away if i find better replacement. However some additional draw/CA would be great in the deck.

Get some speed :
The obvious first try was to play dark ritual, they were good but not amazing (they are at their best with opposition agent but i run only two of them). I tried with no acceleration at all and found it was lacking against many decks. Chrome mox was another obvious try but they felt akward : choosing the card to discard was always a pain and the acceleration was not worth it most of the time. I need my business cards especially at beginning of the game.
So last try is mox diamond, they give more access to green which is always interesting but i need to play much more lands. Then, Raven's crime becomes a nice way to get rid of additional lands late in the game so i adjusted the discard pack. I am not sold on it for now but it was interesting enough so i will test it more. At last i added Life from the loam as a test : it fits well with moxen and raven's crime, it can recur wasteland and boseiju. I did not test it much yet but so far it does good (well obviously, it is a good card) but i am wondering if it really fits in the great scheme of things. Do i really need it for my plan ?

Sideboard :
It is still work in progress so not much to say about it so far. Choke looks cute but i never sided it in so far so it could move away.

Here is more or less where i stand with it. It does decent results in several small paper tournaments but there is room for improvements and tests. I am looking forward advice, hints and any useful comment about it.

[FTW]

It sounds like you want to play Bg aggro-control (creatures & disruption) and not Loam Pox or Depths/other combo. That is Eva Green then.

The Loam + Raven's Crime + Mox Diamond engine has synergy but it works better in a Pox deck. You don't really need it. Look at the rest of the Eva Green thread for ideas.

You can get better access to green by running Prismatic Vista and Forest. These days 2-color decks do not need to have only black fetches into Bayou when there are up to 8 fetches that get both colors of basics (Verdant + Vista). You can also overload on Boseijus, using the first one as a "Forest" if you need to. It's a much better topdeck than any other green land!

Here's an example of some changes you could make


//Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Castle Locthwain

//Creatures: 18
2 Hexdrinker
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
3 Opposition Agent
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Spells: 20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sudden Edict

//Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard: 15
3 Plague Engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Powder Keg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Run Afoul


I suggest Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb because Keg kills artifact lands in the popular artifact decks. It misses Enchantments, but you already have Decay and Boseiju to hit those so you should be fine.

You may like the new card Unlicensed Hearse. It eats graveyards while turning your small creatures into big threats. I am not sure if that makes it better than Nihil Spellbomb's card draw, but it's worth testing.

Sylvan Library is more card draw without the Loam engine.

Hexdrinker is a cheap threat that can sink extra mana later in the game.

1 mana removal (Fatal Push) is useful in some fast matchups like Delver. I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand. You may still want to find room for the 1 Torpor Orb if your meta has decks like Doomsday, Goblins, Esper Vial, Cephalid Breakfast, Death & Taxes..

[Reeplcheep]

So the plan now :
- Black has some nice creatures that are bear-like but carrying some added abilities (voidwalker, ...) that i find very interesting in the meta. I plan to win with them on the battlefield so basically i am playing a fair deck. Those creatures are in the 2-3 range for power and in the 2-3 range too for casting cost. That is much too slow to be a tempo deck so i need some controle and/or CA elements in my deck. Abilities on the creatures will help my plan but i will need more of course. So basically, strategy will be disruption and controle, and when path is clear enough, swing with those creatures.

Ok so you want to be a creature centric midrange deck built around mox diamond. That has some implications:

Without dark ritual the black 3 drops are not up to legacy power level. Dauthi voidwalker + discard and opposition agent really need to be cast on t1. 3 drops that die to bolt are very bad if not cast ahead of schedule.
The original mox diamond/bob midrange deck was aggro loam. You should borrow heavily from that deck for inspiration.
If you don’t want to play depths that is fine, but I would make sure you have rock solid mana. You won’t ever be as fast as depths or as powerful as 4c loam but at least you will be more resilient.
These type of decks really need to play to the board. I would not play ravens crime since it is so tempo negative; it only fits in hard control decks.
Imo, you need a minimum of 26 lands for mox diamond.



I do think you have a good niche here as 4c loam cutting white and red.

Discard instead of chalice means you aren’t as reliant on mox diamond.
PFire is medium nowadays, but you might want a light red splash for blasts
Elvish reclaimer means you don’t need white anymore for a “KOTR”
Boseiju gives you a reward for having stabler mana
Basics are great


Cutting crimes and the expensive black creatures for elvish reclaimer and a gsz package:

// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 11 Creature
3 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Endurance
1 Dryad Arbor

// 6 Instant
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Once upon a Time

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nuturing Peatland
1 Karakas

// 3 Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grist, The Hunger Tide

// 11 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Outland Liberator
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

[Reeplcheep]

The reasoning:

1 grist over Liliana, 1 endurance and some sideboard green cards for GSZ reasons
GSZ and ouat are the green brainstorm and ponder. You should play them in any deck that has sufficient hits.
Reclaimer is often as big as your nighthawks. Nighthawks are better in the “don’t die to murktide role” but reclaimer for Maze of ith and ceratops should plug that gap.
Added some lands for reclaimer and ouat/mox.
Dauthi, 1 hymns, and tourack cut for the gsz package. Gsz fills out your curve better and lets you have more non black lands. Especially since you aren’t playing Urborg.

[KobeBryan]

I think going forward, if you want to play this deck, you need endurance and grief

[Purple Blood]

B/G will always be my favorite deck!

Since you have so many off-color lands, I think you should play at least one Urborg.

Nighthawk isn't playable to me. It can block Murktide but its just gonna die to Bolt or Heat and set you back 3/1 mana.

Agree with the other posters on GSZ package and maybe try to fit a Ramunap in, which can hardlock people with Wasteland and goes nicely with Liliana.

Vraska, Golgari Queen could be a nice grinding card in the sideboard.

[Albarkhane]

Thank you for all those advice and hints, i will try to adress them all.



You can get better access to green by running Prismatic Vista and Forest. These days 2-color decks do not need to have only black fetches into Bayou when there are up to 8 fetches that get both colors of basics (Verdant + Vista). You can also overload on Boseijus, using the first one as a "Forest" if you need to. It's a much better topdeck than any other green land!

//Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Castle Locthwain

//Creatures: 18
2 Hexdrinker
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
3 Opposition Agent
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Spells: 20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sudden Edict

//Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard: 15
3 Plague Engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Powder Keg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Run Afoul



I am fetching most of the time for basic so i can only agree about Vista + basic lands, it is a good plan when playing 2 colors only. I got them and tested some games. I am not yet sure about the right balance and for now i am using 3 vista + 3 bayou instead of the 4/2 splits you are suggesting. I like to naturally draw my bayou and double BB is quite a strong requirement too.
The third Boseiju is good idea too if enough space for it. On that topic, i see in your list that you suggest not to play wasteland. I am a bit surprised as they are almost auto-include for me in any fair deck that can afford them. Is it just a space consideration or there is a deeper reasoning for that (meta) ? Wastelands are quite synergic with opposition agent so it looks interesting to run them.



I suggest Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb because Keg kills artifact lands in the popular artifact decks. It misses Enchantments, but you already have Decay and Boseiju to hit those so you should be fine.

You may like the new card Unlicensed Hearse. It eats graveyards while turning your small creatures into big threats. I am not sure if that makes it better than Nihil Spellbomb's card draw, but it's worth testing.

Sylvan Library is more card draw without the Loam engine.

Hexdrinker is a cheap threat that can sink extra mana later in the game.

1 mana removal (Fatal Push) is useful in some fast matchups like Delver. I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand. You may still want to find room for the 1 Torpor Orb if your meta has decks like Doomsday, Goblins, Esper Vial, Cephalid Breakfast, Death & Taxes..


I was using ratchet bomb instead of Powder Keg because it can hit planewalkers but you are right, keg is better in the current meta. Run afoul looks interesting, i will test it. Sylvan library is under test now but i have not done enough to be sure for the moment.
I am much less convinced by unlicensed hearse and hexdrinker (that one requires lots of mana to become a real threat and i rather have a creature that has some disruption instead). But i will test them both when i have more time.

Now the core question ... Dark ritual or no dark ritual
The list you are suggesting is quite similar to the one i used when i tried dark ritual. However your list is better balanced and probably more efficient.

I usually consider that dark ritual is good in combo decks (such as storm) because you don't care card disadvantage when you are going to win in the turn. When you want to use it in another deck, the risk must be worth it.

Our best turn one play is probably : swamp + dark ritual + opposition agent. It is a strong play but is it strong enough ?

It is sort of similar to the old school classic dark ritual into hypnotic specter. In old school context it is almost always the good play because answers are only sword to plawshare or bolt (and in some corner cases a counterspell). If hypnotic specter is not answered in a few turns, you win because of CA.

Let's have a look at opposition agent play now :
- We have 14.5% (OTP) or 18.4% (OTD) to have those both cards for a turn 1 play (considering we play 4 of each).
- There are much more answers in legacy than in old school so chance are higher to be on the wrong side of a 1-2 cards.
- Effect is devastating if opponent has only fetchlands in hand but quite average if opponent has 1-2 basic/dual lands (running wastelands can help partialy here). It depends much of the deck we are facing but if a rough estimation is 50% that means we have about 8% to have a great play.
To summary, that is not so bad but IMHO not enough to be the only reason to play dark ritual. So what are other interesting plays with dark ritual ?

We can play quicker our creatures. That is great but chances are high that the first creature that hits the battlefield will be dealt with so we are again 1-2 cards. We can play thoughtseize + hymn to tourach but that play is actually 3-3 cards so it depends a lot on how we can wreck opponent hand with that discard. Thougthseize + Bob looks a strong play as we get some protection for our Bob.

There are probably other plays that i am missing here but if we go back to the question : is it worth the risk of 1-2 ? I am a bit dubious ...

What do you think ?


I think going forward, if you want to play this deck, you need endurance and grief

Grief is under test now. Endurance needs GG and that can be a problem but it is probably worth a try.

I see that post is already quite long so i will stop it here and will adress other advice later (going more green was not in my mind at first but it is interesting and i will have to look more deeply at what was suggested).

[FTW]

I am fetching most of the time for basic so i can only agree about Vista + basic lands, it is a good plan when playing 2 colors only. I got them and tested some games. I am not yet sure about the right balance and for now i am using 3 vista + 3 bayou instead of the 4/2 splits you are suggesting. I like to naturally draw my bayou and double BB is quite a strong requirement too.

3-3 split should be fine. I was torn between 3-3 or 4-2. They have different advantages. 3 Bayou is slightly weaker to nonbasic hate but more flexible for early BB or G.


The third Boseiju is good idea too if enough space for it. On that topic, i see in your list that you suggest not to play wasteland. I am a bit surprised as they are almost auto-include for me in any fair deck that can afford them. Is it just a space consideration or there is a deeper reasoning for that (meta) ? Wastelands are quite synergic with opposition agent so it looks interesting to run them.

There's tight competition for non-black lands. You want 16 black lands to play BB cards like Hymn to Tourach and Dauthi Voidwalker.
4 Verdant + 4 Vista + 2 Bayou + 6 black = 16
4 Verdant + 3 Vista + 3 Bayou + 6 black = 16

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is bad with Opposition Agent (their unused fetch can tap for black), so Urborg cannot help BB.

That leaves little room for non-black sources. You need at least 1 basic Forest. That's minimum 17 land slots taken up. After that, both Wasteland and Boseiju, Who Endures are very strong. I think Boseiju is better because it answers more things and helps green mana. Boseiju still answers the most dangerous nonbasics in the meta, but it cannot manascrew them for tempo. To play both Boseiju and Wasteland you need to increase the land count. So you have to ask yourself if Wasteland is better than another nonland card, even at the risk of mana flood (23-24 lands). Maybe it is.


I am much less convinced by unlicensed hearse and hexdrinker (that one requires lots of mana to become a real threat and i rather have a creature that has some disruption instead). But i will test them both when i have more time.

Hexdrinker has been strong in other decks. 2/1 for G trades with many creatures. It just needs Level 3 to become dangerous (4/4 protection from Removal). After that it becomes a good mana sink against flooding, like Nantuko Shade used to be in the old decks. You don't want 4 copies, but 1-2 is not much strain on the mana.

I am not sure about Hearse. It fills a niche: graveyard hate that keeps eating the graveyard. That effect is strong in the current meta vs Dragon's Rage Channeler, Murktide Regent, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, and other cards that use the graveyard as fuel. Nihil Spellbomb will exile things once but then they can quickly refill the graveyard with more cards. Hearse keeps eating away at their resources, like a Relic of Progenitus that can target. It also helps your small 2/x creatures beat through bigger creatures (Crew 2). I think it has enough potential to deserve testing, but could still be worse than Nihil Spellbomb.



Now the core question ... Dark ritual or no dark ritual

You basically have to choose between
a) Dark Ritual
b) Mox (Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond)
c) no acceleration

Dark Ritual and Mox are both card disadvantage, but they also power out disruption and engines faster. You just need ways to catch up on cards. Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, or other ways to draw cards. I like Sylvan because it adds more things they need to answer to stop you gaining cards.

Mox are better for powering out 2-mana cards early (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, Chalice of the Void).

Dark Ritual is better with 3 mana payoffs (Opposition Agent, Liliana, Nighthawk). But it's still good for plays like T1 Thoughtseize + Confidant, T2 Confidant/Voidwalker + Hymn, or T2 Grief.

With no acceleration there's no card disadvantage. But also no speed. Then you have to ask yourself if your 1s and 2s are at a high enough power level to compete with other low-cost creatures in the format. Unless you're on Death's Shadow or Hogaak, Risen Necropolis, there's nothing in black that can match Dragon's Rage Channeler at 1 mana or Murktide Regent at 2 mana. Green has Elvish Reclaimer, but that wants land combos.

I think no acceleration is a bad idea until black gains better 1-mana creatures. But maybe Chrome Mox is better than Dark Ritual with your creatures.

If you want 24 lands for Wasteland & Boseiju together, then Mox Diamond looks better. Then Life from the Loam and Elvish Reclaimer look better too.

[KobeBryan]

Here's the problem with this deck. There are so many graveyard strategies out right now that filling the graveyard is the game plan. This destroys this deck in trying to clear out the board and into the graveyard

then you got this fooking card called Uro. There is absolutely NOTHING that that BG can do that is better than that card. When Uro sticks, it sucks. BG needs a card on the BG color to even consider playing BG. this is the same as rock decks. Blue is too good right now.

[FTW]

Here's the problem with this deck. There are so many graveyard strategies out right now that filling the graveyard is the game plan. This destroys this deck in trying to clear out the board and into the graveyard

then you got this fooking card called Uro. There is absolutely NOTHING that that BG can do that is better than that card. When Uro sticks, it sucks. BG needs a card on the BG color to even consider playing BG. this is the same as rock decks. Blue is too good right now.

Do Dauthi Voidwalker and Unlicensed Hearse help that problem? Monoblack and Tomb decks are getting reasonable results with those cards. Not Tier 1, but playable.

[KobeBryan]

I also believe whatever card you play in the nighthawk slot, you play thieves guild enforcer

[KobeBryan]

Do Dauthi Voidwalker and Unlicensed Hearse help that problem? Monoblack and Tomb decks are getting reasonable results with those cards. Not Tier 1, but playable.

Do you really want to play unlicensed hearse main deck? We have lots of answers to creatures so uros aren't really an issue. I just find that i don't want to fuel their uros and uros are the king right now. That being said, why not just play our own damn uros instead of playing a deck without uros. Decks with Uros have so many cards that fuel the engine.

I found Dauthi Voidwalker to be so goddamn slow that it doesn't make a difference. I don't know about you guys.

I find that Murderous rider should be a 2 of since that is OUR brazen borrower, but with a better effect.

I think Boseiju should be a 2 as a utility card for us.

I refuse to dump tarmogoyf. One being, this is eva green. Two being, I had a chance to trade 4 goyfs for a tabernacle and I didn't.

Ignoble may be better than dark ritual if you are playing endurance, which I believe should be in this deck.

Stop being cheap with utility graveyard hate post board. Just run your fucking 4 leylines.

[KobeBryan]

I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand.


I understand the Run afoul, but eva green runs plenty of creature removal and things that destroy stuff. Sudden edict wouldn't really be affected by people going wide on us.

I mean, how often do you lose this game where people went wide on you? The only games where people go wide on us is that fuckin deck with 5/5 colorless creatures and endbringer (forgot the name). Beating that deck requires tarmogoyfs and resource destruction so we don't need a card like run afoul anyways. Which leaves us to why use this card.

Every other deck, we control the board. Goblins, we got plague engineer, Elves, we can kill these fuckers. Monestary Mentor, we got plague engineer. And if they go 10 wide, you lost the game anyways.

Delver they don't beat us with more than 1 delver or DRC anyways. They usually don't have a board prescence. That deck beats us on card quality and stopping our threats. We have superior creatures than them too so they cannot afford to trade us 1 for 1. Remember, Eva green was made to out-tempo tempo

So that leaves us with decks like Marit lage, who doesn't have more than 1 creature on the board anyways. So why run "run afoul"

[Albarkhane]

Ok so you want to be a creature centric midrange deck built around mox diamond. That has some implications:

Without dark ritual the black 3 drops are not up to legacy power level. Dauthi voidwalker + discard and opposition agent really need to be cast on t1. 3 drops that die to bolt are very bad if not cast ahead of schedule.
The original mox diamond/bob midrange deck was aggro loam. You should borrow heavily from that deck for inspiration.
If you don’t want to play depths that is fine, but I would make sure you have rock solid mana. You won’t ever be as fast as depths or as powerful as 4c loam but at least you will be more resilient.
These type of decks really need to play to the board. I would not play ravens crime since it is so tempo negative; it only fits in hard control decks.
Imo, you need a minimum of 26 lands for mox diamond.



The deck is planned to be creature centric but mox diamond is just an option. As far as my tests go, diamond seems to be the best option but i am not sold on it yet. Acceleration is a must and the deck is really bad without some. I agree that 3 drops are bad unless they can be casted ahead of shedule but they get even worse if they die ahead of shedule while a dark ritual was used to cast them.
I used to play some loam decks and depths decks so i quite know them. There are indeed some interesting options there but i wanted to try something different.



I do think you have a good niche here as 4c loam cutting white and red.

Discard instead of chalice means you aren’t as reliant on mox diamond.
PFire is medium nowadays, but you might want a light red splash for blasts
Elvish reclaimer means you don’t need white anymore for a “KOTR”
Boseiju gives you a reward for having stabler mana
Basics are great




The reasoning:

1 grist over Liliana, 1 endurance and some sideboard green cards for GSZ reasons
GSZ and ouat are the green brainstorm and ponder. You should play them in any deck that has sufficient hits.
Reclaimer is often as big as your nighthawks. Nighthawks are better in the “don’t die to murktide role” but reclaimer for Maze of ith and ceratops should plug that gap.
Added some lands for reclaimer and ouat/mox.
Dauthi, 1 hymns, and tourack cut for the gsz package. Gsz fills out your curve better and lets you have more non black lands. Especially since you aren’t playing Urborg.



That path is quite different from what i was leaning toward but it looks an interesting path. I will have to test such a list as i am no expert with 4C loam.
- A GSZ package is a nice idea. I did not check a lot the available green creatures yet but there are some that could be nice silver bullets for my plan.
- Nighthawk can be used to block murktide but it will often die to a bolt soon. His real function is lifegain (if he can stay on field long enough) in that matchup. i am not fond of Maze of Ith against murktide (in my attack phase i don't want a big untapped blocker). Shifting Ceratops is nice but not sure if it is worth 4 mana with double green.
- I agree that a stable/resilient mana base is important and i want to run as much basic as possible.



B/G will always be my favorite deck!
Since you have so many off-color lands, I think you should play at least one Urborg.
Nighthawk isn't playable to me. It can block Murktide but its just gonna die to Bolt or Heat and set you back 3/1 mana.
Agree with the other posters on GSZ package and maybe try to fit a Ramunap in, which can hardlock people with Wasteland and goes nicely with Liliana.
Vraska, Golgari Queen could be a nice grinding card in the sideboard.

Urborg is not combo with opposition agent as it allows him to cast spells using his fetchlands. I don't run it because of that.
I had forgotten about Vraska, Golgari Queen but she could be a fun try. The + ability will require some setup but there is a nice potential with her ultimate.

[FTW]

I also believe whatever card you play in the nighthawk slot, you play thieves guild enforcer

Thieves' Guild Enforcer is bad in Legacy, where opponents cannibalize their own graveyards (Murktide, Uro, Hogaak, Loam, Echo, Endurance, Emry). The floor is vanilla 1/1 - not worth a card - and happens often. It would be a lot better if the deathtouch was unconditional so it could at least trade as a blocker.

Nighthawk's floor is a 1/3 flying lifelink deathtouch and grows with a single card in GY. It can always drain life and trade with creatures. The bad part is the mana cost, so it trades badly with removal. Maybe Nighthawk is not good enough, but Enforcer is not it.

Unfortunately black lacks good 1-drops for tempo beatdown. Until then, you either go heavier on green (Reclaimer, Hierarch) or you need acceleration to get to good black plays. Or you lean into Grief shenanigans (Undying Evil).

Voidwalker is too slow to hate out combo, but it's a good attacker and MD grave hate matters in a lot of fair matches (Murktide, Uro). For combo there is SB.

The green plan has merit if you want to force Endurance. 4 Ignoble 4 Goyf 3 Endurance 3 Decay. Grist. Maybe GSZ into Arbor. Maybe Hexdrinker or Reclaimer. But all of that makes it harder to play Hymn.

You can't play Uro here. UUGG doesn't mix with BB. Adding Uro means -4 Hymn -other BB cards + blue cantrips -> 4c Yorion or BUG Aluren

[FTW]

I understand the Run afoul, but eva green runs plenty of creature removal and things that destroy stuff. Sudden edict wouldn't really be affected by people going wide on us.

Marit Lage. Random Elvish Reclaimer or Sylvan Safekeeper can't stop your Edict. There's also mana efficiency. You don't have to hold open 2 mana all game (in case of surprise ESG + Crop Rot into EOT Lage), so you can actually tap lands to play threats. Since the deck doesn't have much offense at 1 mana, that matters.

The other usecases are also tempo and mana efficiency. 1 mana instead of 2, for things that don't die to Push and Decay. Against SneakShow you only have to hold open 1 mana, so you can play threats. Against Reanimator you can kill a resolved fatty on turn 1 instead of waiting till turn 2. Against Delver, killing Murktide for 1 mana is better tempo (especially when they temporarily lost Delirium for DRC). Sudden Edict is good too, but more mana.

Against go-wide both are bad and you already have other tools.

Against midrange decks sometimes you get their Baleful Strix/Ice-Fang Coatl or Yorion even when they have a random dork out. Those are minor cases though.

[Mr. Safety]

The new 4 mana 4/5 is what this deck wants, it gains you life for every draw, meaning it's bonkers with Sylvan library. You even go +2 life playing janky stuff like Sign in Blood or Nights Whisper. It also drains opponents who play Brainstorm or other draw effects. It's a threat that rewards you for playing discard, which forces opponents into playing their draw effects aggressively. It passes the Bolt test and hits pretty hard. It's probably the best card that black midrange had seen in years. Unfortunately I think the best spot for it is in a blue deck, namely Grixis control, which does the same thing but with Brainstorms and lots of ancillary draw.

[Fox]

A 4/5 for 4 mana is kinda format ruining in a limited environment, and the deathtouch and passives magnify that limited-ruining potential....but in legacy you're just turning on the most common types of interaction. The passives do not represent inevitability, and you still have to both catch up to and then outpace an 8/8 MurkGoyf that came out quicker (and remember your 4 mana dude has some Daze issues).

The passives are definitely good (on par with a PW emblem), but you have to drag the game on with controlling elements. At some point you have to look at Karn's passive being able to control and keep you alive vs a wide range of decks (particularly combo). Then you have to ask why we're doing Sheoldred things into hostile Karakas when Karn can get most of the benefit by wishing out Alhammaret's Archive or a wincon.

Sheoldred is not a great financial investment. So unless you want exactly 1 with backup mode "need this for my cube", it's a pretty hard sell.

[KobeBryan]

I think so far the only csrd that made it into the deck is cut down.

Run 3 cut downs and 3 abrupt decay. There shouldnt be much we cant answer. Maybe a big murktide, but we couldnt answer it before anyways.

[KobeBryan]

Ooo that new card uurg is something this deck needs to fix the draws

[FTW]

Why Cut Down? Fatal Push seems much better. What creatures have CMC > 4 but P/T adding up to 5 or less?