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raharu
01-07-2008, 11:00 PM
I’m not certain that this deck has much place in the current metagame, and to be honest I really don’t mind that at all. It is based off of Turbo Xerox, has a sweet name (although something better could come along), and overall I think that the deck is pretty cool and could be quite good. I’m trying to make the deck not so “Turbo”, if you will (meaning more control and less agro, although I don‘t think you could say that Turbo Xerox was agro in any way), so if you could bear that in mind when making suggestions that would be nice. At any rate, here’s the deck list:

Bruised NEO Xerox

Counters: 14
3 x Force Spike
3 x Memory Lapse
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will

Removal/ Board Sweeper: 6
3 x Nyirval’s Disk
3x Dark Banishing

Draw: 8
4 x Accumulated Knowledge
4 x Ancestral Vision

Cantrip: 10
4 x Ponder
4 x Portent
2 x Lim-Dul’s Vault

Creatures: 4
2 x Moroii
2 x Tombstalker

Lands: 18
10 x Island
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Swamp



Sideboard Options/ possible main deck cards:
Blue Elemental Blast/ Hydroblast
Propaganda (God only knows how much I would like for this to be blue Ghostly Prison)
Back to Basics
Engineered Explosives
Extirpate
Engineered Plague

Now on to the card choices:

Force Spike: I’m not going to be cantriping first turn and the tempo loss from Daze is undesired (or unacceptable, one of the two), so this was my only feasible option (outside of something retarded like Foil)

Memory Lapse: I would think it’s better than Dissipate and it’s a hard counter, unlike Mana Leak or Rune Snag. It’s also a throw-back to the direct ancestor of the deck. Why the hell not.

Counterspell & Force of Will: I’m not going to explain this.

Disk: God-like sweeping ability. Hits everything. For all intents and purposes this card is Pernicious Deed for infinity. Yep, it’s going in.

Dark Banishing: MD removal is nice, not to mention that my “meta” (read: school) is very agro-oriented, and although this will change soon (a buddy of mine is going to build Solidarity/ TES and force everyone to either evolve or die) I really believe that the deck needs some ability to remove creatures that are allowed to resolve, and Dark Banishing fulfils the role I want it to without being within typical Counterbalance range.

Accumulated Knowledge: The ability to draw ridiculous amounts of cards in the late game is really just great, considering that would be where this deck is going. I really don’t know if these slots should be AK or Predict, since Predict’s ability to mill off cards grants me more control of what I draw.

Ancestral Visions: once was Dark Confidant, then was Shadowmage Infiltrator, now is Ancestral Visions. It’s draw en-masse on turn 4 that refills my hand on the cheap, even if it is a bit delayed.

Ponder: because Brainstorm is terrible here while Ponder is amazing.

Portent: moar Ponders.

Lim-Dul’s Vault: Lets me grab what I want, when I want it. If I think that it’s a good time to finish the game, but I find myself without a finisher, I dig into it EoT. If I need some removal, same thing.

Moroii: finisher. It’s essentially the same as Waterspout Dijin, but it doesn’t create tempo loss. I’m not too keen on Morphling, so this and Tombstalker were pretty much my only choices, excluding the possibility of Hypnox ^_^.

Tombstalker: 2 mana flying 5/5 that evades Counterbalance and Pernicious Deed? It shrinks Tarmogoyf also? Fuck, yes please!!! I had to alter the deck a little to get to run these and the double black could prove to be a pain in the ass, but it should be more than worth it.


Noticeable cards missing:

Fact or Fiction: I’ve never really liked it, and considering the amount of draw in the deck already, I’m fairly sure that I can get away with not running this.

Chalice of the Void: Look at my mana curve. Look at my mana base. Running this would be a bad idea.

Morphling: It’s slow, it doesn’t do anything special, I don’t really have the mana base to support it to the fullest, and they’re more expensive than they’re worth. I would rather not.

Anything else: Suggest it, because if I didn’t include it there’s a significant chance that I didn’t think of it.

edgewalker
01-07-2008, 11:14 PM
Dark Banishing, really? You couldn't find something better for that slot, like I don't know, Smother, Chainer's Edict, Diabolic Edict, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise?

Also, the whole point of Turbo Xerox was to play an a fast aggro control deck with the least amount of lands possible. Unfortunately, this deck was rendered obsolete by Comer's next incarnation Miracle Gro and eventually Super Gro, which are obviously now themselves obsolete by Threshold variants.

xsockmonkeyx
01-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Ponder: because Brainstorm is terrible here while Ponder is amazing.

Why/how is Brainstorm terrible here?

raharu
01-07-2008, 11:27 PM
@edgewalker: All of which fall squarely under the whole "gets countered by CounterTop" clause, which was a stated reason as to why I didn't run some cheaper form of removal.

The deck only had 4 beaters, since you really couldn't count Squ-ata Firewalker as a agro creature. The deck was more Control-Agro with a relatively fast clock, as I understand it.

Also, Turbo Xerox was somewhat pushed in the direction of threshold with the advent of the Oddsey block (whick introduced the Threshold mechanic). This is somewhat of an experiment as to what would have happened if the deck went more toward control instead of more toward agro, as it did.

@xsockmonkeyx: preseumably replacing Portent? I only have 4 shuffle effects, 8 including Ponder (which I hate wasting on a Brainstorm). I would rather not.

xsockmonkeyx
01-07-2008, 11:39 PM
@xsockmonkeyx: preseumably replacing Portent? I only have 4 shuffle effects, 8 including Ponder (which I hate wasting on a Brainstorm). I would rather not.

Presumably cutting anything to fit it in. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the format and this kind of deck is tailor made for the card. If you need more shuffle effects then play more fetches, you probably want more fetches anyway to feed Tombstalker.

Dont make me have to invoke facepalm.jpg

edgewalker
01-08-2008, 12:22 AM
@edgewalker: All of which fall squarely under the whole "gets countered by CounterTop" clause, which was a stated reason as to why I didn't run some cheaper form of removal.

You know what else gets stopped by counterbalance? About 80% of the cards seeing play in Legacy right now. Most notably would be Tarmogoyf, Life from the Loam, Smother (sounds familiar), Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Counterspell, Dark Confidant, Burning Wish, and the list goes on. Sadly, your argument doesn't hold water since by that same logic non-basic lands shouldn't be played because of wasteland/back to basics/magus of the moon/blood moon.

zulander
01-08-2008, 12:28 AM
This deck lacks explanation of wtf it's supposed to do. Like wtf is Turbo Xerox??!?1

raharu
01-08-2008, 02:43 AM
@ Zulander: Turbo Xerox was the deck that eventually evolved into thresh. It was mono-blue, and was essentially Counters, cantrips, and win-conditions, which were comprised of 4x Waterspout Dijin and 4x Squ-ata Firewalker. The list is curently in the MUC thread if you really need it. The difference between the two is that this is supposed to be more controling, hence only 4 finishers.

@ xsockmonkeyx: I would believe that there is a reason that most MUC decks don't run Brainstorm. At any rate, I'll test it in the Portent slot and add in 4x Flooded Strand/ Terramorphic Expanse (since it will get me swamps also). About Brainstorm being the most powerful card in the game... Tarmogoyf? :tongue:

@ edgewalker: Look at my mana curve. I am incredibly voulnerable to Chalice of the Void/ CounterTop, both of which are seeing an increase in use. On that note, considering that I have a great/ terrible curve for it, I think I'm going to test this out:

-3 Memory Lapse
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault

+2 Counterbalance
+3 Sensei's Divining Top


Aside: what does everyone think about the draw?

Also, Tombstalker is a late-game threat, to be used when the opponent is topdecking answers and I don't have to use a hand full O' counters to get it on the table or I have mana left over to do so (although it should let me get out of some weird situations in the early game I shouldn't be able to).

Can anyone give me some more ideas for finishers? I'm thinking something like a 2/2/2 split so I don't take an auto-loss against a deck running 4 MD Extirpates

raharu
01-09-2008, 03:27 AM
CB + Disk = dissynergy. No mas. I think I'll do something like this:

- CounterTop enging

+ 4 Back to Basics
+1 Tombstalker

The reason that Back to Basics wasn't in the origional MD was that I posted the list I intended to use, and with who I play, B2B is useless, but against compotent decks it is quite usefull.

@ edgewalker: I don't feel like buying more Dark Banshings yet (as I only have 1), so right now I'm using Smother in that slot, since I own a playset and then some. Better?

What is the concensus on Engineered Explosives? Should it be a board card or should I make room for it in the main?

claudio.r
01-09-2008, 01:11 PM
Something on the historical background of the deck. Turbo Xerox was a very powerful deck back in the days... it was short on land wich makes the number of useful spell a lot bigger, and with the number of cantrips we can find the land we need early in the game.

In the words of the creator of the deck (the great Alan Comer);

"Even without weatherlight, it is possible. The deck I took 2nd place
in the So. Cal Regionals had no rares. It was more by coincidence than
by design. Around here, it has been dubbed the Turbo Xerox deck, as
everybody copied it due to the lack of rares.

4 x Force of Will (The hardest thing to get for this deck.)
3 x Dissipate
4 x Counterspell
4 x Powersink
4 x Memory Lapse
4 x Foreshadow
4 x Portent
4 x Impulse
4 x Suq-ata Firewalker
4 x Waterspout Djinn
4 x Man-o-War
1 x Dream Tides
17 x Islands

The important thing to remember with this deck is that early on, you
MUST use the library manipulation to get to your land. Later, you can
use it to get to cool spells. Things like: I portent your library. I
foreshadow away your good spell...

Oh yeah, Sideboard

1 x Dissipate (For people who are hammer crazy.)
1 x Dreamtides (For green players, and forgotten orb players.
gee, every other turn your erg raider doesn't
untap...)
4 x Hydroblast
3 x Knight of the Mists
2 x Slieght of mind (For Pyroblasts, Nekrataals, Skulking Ghosts, etc)
4 x DanDan (Mr. Blue player, do you have a force of will???)

Alan Comer"

I also found this when surfing the net:

"You will note that Comer's deck plays only 17 lands. This is because he had two huge advantages. The first one is that in the early game, his full compliment of Impulses, Portents, and Foreshadows allowed him to find islands for the first 3-4 turns. On turn 4, having looked at many more than 11 cards on average, he would be able to tap out just once to play Waterspout Djinn (hopefully with Force of Will backup). The Waterspout Djinn would mean that Comer could - actually had to - stay at 4 lands for the rest of the game. The fact that he was less likely to draw lands with only 17 in his deck would now become an advantage. He would only have to attack five turns because of the Waterspout Djinn's incredible efficiency. Meanwhile all that library manipulation would then be used to keep finding "answers"... in Comer's deck even generally weak permission like Power Sink were thrown in. He would be looking at so few lands and so many answers with all those cantrips that playing 1-for-1 with permission - almost any permission it seems - for five turns was a very strong plan.

Now Comer had a lot of other advantages in his deck as well... He could generate tons of cards in hand with cute tricks like Portent + Foreshadow and Memory Lapse + Foreshadow. He could paralyze a green deck with his Dream Tides, or go "machine gun" with Dream Tides and Suq'Ata Firewalkter. But for our purposes, the lesson of Turbo Xerox is twofold: for every 4 cantrips in your deck, you can play 2 fewer lands, and a fast clock is synergistic with a redundant combination of answer cards and quick card drawing over the course of the short number of turns required to win (usually via race, rather than total board control)."

Arsenal
01-09-2008, 02:43 PM
If you're looking for 3cc instant creature removal that hits most of the field, I would suggest Expunge. It can't hit artifact creatures, but outside of Mishra's Factory (which B2B would take care of anyway), what other relevant artifact creatures are currently being played in Legacy? And Expunge cycles in the event that you're facing a creature-less/lite deck.

EDIT: I completely forgot about Affinity, my bad. Maybe Expunge wouldn't be so hot if Affinity is big in your area.

raharu
01-09-2008, 03:58 PM
@ claudio.r: Wow, thanks. I was thinking about getting that from the MUC thread, but I was too lazy to do it. That is very apreciated.

@ Arsenal: The cycling is nice, but hitting everything that hits the board is the plan, hence why I liked Dark Banishing. I think that Smother is the best option though since it hits pretty much the whole format (although it doesn't hit everything).

Would a white splash be superior? I could run Oblivion Ring instead of Smother, and that would be a multifacated answer to everything. I wanted to splash bw for Vindicate MD, Ghostly Prison, Extirpate and something else in the board (StP??), but with basic lands this would stretch the mana base more than I would like and possible reduce my ability to run Tombstalker (because of the BB).

Thoughts?

claudio.r
01-09-2008, 05:40 PM
I like the idea of having a card like dream tides, it stops green and when combined with cards like wasteland or rishadan port can really wreck decks with poor manabases. Propaganda is nice too.
I'm a fan of a mono-blue approach, but in the current meta, it doesn't look very strong... maybe i'm going to work on a mono blue version and test a bit to see how it performs.

JDunkin00
01-09-2008, 06:47 PM
I hate to say it but when you said brainstorm isn't good here I almost quit reading. Also couldn't vedalken shakles be better "removal" than dark banishing. I mean really come on. At least try smother.

raharu
01-09-2008, 07:09 PM
I hate to say it but when you said brainstorm isn't good here I almost quit reading. Also couldn't vedalken shakles be better "removal" than dark banishing. I mean really come on. At least try smother.


Dark Banishing fulfils the role I want it to without being within typical Counterbalance range.


I think that Smother is the best option though since it hits pretty much the whole format (although it doesn't hit everything).

Folow teh logic please, and yes, Valkeden shackles is a very good sugestion, thank you very much, it entierly slipped my mind.

Also: I run 4 fetchlands. 4. Look at any MUC list that doesn't run a relatively large amount of fetchlands. No Brainstorm. Just because a card is generally better than another doesn't mean that it will be better in X deck or X situation.

Because I don't have any Portent on hand (since I don't have the money to spend on generally sub-optimal cards because I'm savinf for !@#$%ing Thoughtseizes), I'll be testing both Brainstom and Serum Visions because A) chaining Portent into Ponder sucks, and B) Varried testing is good.

claudio.r
01-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Shackles is a really great card, but don't forget we're playing 17/18 lands....

raharu
01-09-2008, 08:48 PM
@ claudio.r: This would be true, but with 8 (-ish cantrips) and a solid amount of draw, I think that getting that land shouldn't be a problem (disclaimer: untested statement).

I intend to test both Shackles and Smother in the deck, regardless if I get good results from one or the other. I'm really going to test a lot for this deck because this is going to be my play-deck for a while (at least 'till !@#$ing Thoughtseize comes down a bit). On the topic of cantrips, how many is the proper number? I don't want to run less than 10 permission spells and no less than 12 control pieces in general (although more hard control would be nice). 4 finishers is the minimum, and AK/ Predict deserves a home here. Ancestral Visions is too slow, and I don't want to use black draw (life loss in a long-game control deck is fail). Thoughts?

The Legacy Weapon
01-09-2008, 09:11 PM
Why would anyone want to play this over Threshold? Turbo Xerox is obsolete now especially since it lacks Tarmagoyf. Dark Banishing is a really bad card for Legacy. 3 mana for a limited removal spell. I would rather run something like Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach. One of those would get you much better results than Dark Banishing. Add fetches if you are going to keep Tombstalker.

Cavius The Great
01-09-2008, 09:36 PM
Why on earth would you run Dark Banishing over Smother?

edgewalker
01-09-2008, 09:52 PM
Don't you read, the same reason why no one plays goyf, daze, life from the loam, and any other card that has a casting cost of 1-3. Counterbalance!!!!!!

raharu
01-09-2008, 10:36 PM
@ Cavious: do you read posts, or just read the deck list, ignore the explinations, and attack the deck? Since then I've decided to run Smother in that slot (but you can't stop me from testing Dark Banishing).

@ Brainstorm: this deck is CONTROL.
The end.

If you've educated yourself on MUC, you would know why it's a bad idea here. There is a reason that Ponder is better in this deck. I'm going to test Brainstorm anyways, just in case, but I really don't think that it will give me better results than Ponder or another cantrip (Impluse?).

@ More fetchlands: this deck isCONTROL.
The end.

I want more mana-producing lands because this deck is going into the long game, and I want to have land advantage over my opponent without having to limit the list of good spells, ergo I'm running only 4 to fix my manabase with whatever it needs/ wants. Since this deck is a control deck, I'm going to have cards in the yard when I decide to finish it. In the late game. Because this is control. which goes into the LATE GAME. I don't intend for this to be Agro-Control. Let me help you guys fix your thought process. From now on, if there is a creature, and you see it, read: Morphling. Any better? Now read the opening post (again, for the 1 of you who did) and contribute something that's not MOAR THRESHOLD PLX. thanks.

Also, the reasons to play this over thresh:
A decent clock that you can slow-play to your leisure
More promission
You don't take it in the ass from a resomved Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon
You don't care about Wasteland
You get to play more permanent-based control (that isn't mana intensive)
You don't give a fuck about GY hate
Cheaper
You don't have to play tedious "Mirror Matches"
Probably a better Landstill MU (hypothetically)
Probably have a better dedivated control MU

There, is that enough reasons yet?

The reason that Turbo Xerox because what it became ('Gro, then thresh, then what it is today) was because of the release of the Oddesy block, and the Threshold mechanic it brought with it. That occurrence pretty much forced the deck to become thresh. This deck is not going to become thresh. There is a reason for this. I see potential for this to turn into some sort of control monster (with the proper amount of forced eveloution), with a coushy early, mid and late game, simply because of the deck's ability to get what it wants when it want it (yes, like threshold, but with a better early and late game). I believe that with the control elements printed between when this deck was abandoned and now, we could create a beastly control machine.

The end (really).

EDIT: or not: @ edgewalker: do you read posts? Really, I'm going to playtest both. The logic behind Dark Banishing was sound. Give it up already... Damnit.

edgewalker
01-09-2008, 11:11 PM
No the logic isn't sound. I'm really shocked you think it was. By your logic no one should be playing cards with casting costs of 1 to 3. It's ridiculous that you think dark banishing is a good even worthy of testing.

Also as far as brainstorm not belonging in a control deck, you're dumb. I'm sorry, flame away, ask for me to be banned, but you're dumb. It gives the deck so much, card selection, not to mention card draw. It would fit into this deck perfectly. The idea is to play as little land as possible so you can play as many threats/answers as possible, so why not play a card that can get you said threats/answers. You might want to look into fetchlands too, seeing as how it helps with mana fixing. Hell it cuts down on the number of "lands" you need to play.

God after reading your last post I wonder if you have any grasp on what magic the gathering is.

EDIT: You're history of Turbo Xerox are off, Gro and Xerox are two different decks and where developed separately. Comer simply had a love for running as few lands as possible. Gro actually relied very little on threshold. It only really ran werebear and later Mystic enforcer as a foil to pernicious deed (which was played by the then popular PT Junk) Werebear was only played because it produced mana early on and later beat face. However, since Gro>Turbo Xerox and Threshold>Gro, why try to work backwards? Why try to reinvent the wheel?

raharu
01-09-2008, 11:49 PM
Yeah, the logic was sound, and yes, I have a pretty good grasp on the game of magical cardboard.

@ logic: so, not being able to hit Myr Enforcer, random creatures off general curve, most of the threast in reanimator not named Akorma, Angel of Wrath and Simic Sky Swallower, /various other random crap in my metagame is worth my removal in a generally slow control deck being :1: more... :confused:. Nah, I think not. Again, I'm going to test Smother and Dark Banishing, so really this is a moot point, but to agrue this until you see my thought process...

The deck is already voulnerable enough to Counterbalance/ Chalice of the Void. Why bother adding removal to the deck to to get the things that slip through when the reason that they slipped through would most likely be because of Chalice/ CounterTop? Gee, maybe to have it get stopped by the same apparatus? Maybe that's a bad plan... At any rate, let us progress the deck. Chaining Ponder into Portent will always suck (although with only 4 each, this really doesn't matter, but anyways), so I think I'll do this (even though I was going to test SV, Portent and Brainstorm in cantrip slots 5-8 anyways):

-1 swamp
-1 island
+2 Flooded Strand

-4 Portent
+4 Brainstorm

Because I have to say it, here it is: Brainstorm, in theory, should be terribler here because I should be running a small amount of Fetchlands, and because of this lack of shuffle effects, I end up drawing into crap for the next 2 turns. For all intents and purposes, Brainsrom in this deck is shitty Ponder, just instant speed. Read the MUC thread, this is true.

Better??

Now about those threats... Got any good ones?

@ Devolving the deck: No, just taking adifferent path. I've andrady explained this, but if you need a a better expoination, just ask and I'll try to give you the most through explination I can possibly concoct.

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 12:03 AM
@ Devolving the deck: No, just taking adifferent path. I've andrady explained this, but if you need a a better expoination, just ask and I'll try to give you the most through explination I can possibly concoct.

Concoct as in make up? No it is still devolving no matter how much you want to piss and moan and stomp your feet. Remember in pokemon how Charmander evolved into charmeleon and then into charizard. That is how that mtg history kinda works, especially with aggro control decks. Now you maybe argue what about evee? She could evolve progress into a shit ton of different things. That is not how magic works.

As far as retro decks go, some work and some don't. You where right to give it a shot, but let sleeping dogs lie. There is a reason why, Pebbles, Trix, Chimera, Dread Panda Roberts, Zombie Nation, Secret Force, and the hordes of other decks aren't played anymore. Yes some of them lost key cards to bannings, but the majority of these decks where rendered obsolete by years and years of progression. Trust in your elders, they have worked long and hard and have done their homework, these decks are no longer competitive for a reason. Like I said before there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

raharu
01-10-2008, 12:34 AM
@ Concoct?: no, as in take the 99999999999 hours to write out a 10 page essay on how this deck can be viable and decent to some degree (possibly a format breaking beast with enough work).

@ Evee: wtf, how do you know it was a she??? Also, fuck everybody else, Jolteon is the shit :cool:.

@ Sometimes decks die: every deck can adapt and take a different route, even thresh, even Goblins (see gobin combo, the multipule splashes). So on and so forth (excluding combo). The concept is still valid. Tell me, what is stopping this deck from succeding? It's not that far off from MUC, which was for a period of time a DTW. It's faster than MUC with a better method of keeping the game under control (in cantrips and compareable control elements) and faster win conditions. What is keeping this deck from being a contender?

@ trusting my elders: you may have done a little more homework (simply because I do none and get B's and A's anyway), but when it comes to decks I believe in, you can't possibly work any harder than me.

End.

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 12:47 AM
I would like to see said paper on how this deck can be a format powerhouse. Please enlighten me with your great wisdom.

raharu
01-10-2008, 01:13 AM
Gah... I guess now I'm going to have to write that beast now. While on the general topic, I think that splashing white would be a good idea (Ghoslty Prison, Swords to Plowshares, VIndicate, Decree of Justice, <maybe> Meddling Mage), as much as I hate the thought... About that paper... Would you take the less anylitical, condensed version for the time being (until I find the time to write that article/ paper? Oh well, here it is:

The deck is control with the ability to pulll out a relatively fast win-condition, which is some thing that dedicated control generally can't do.

The deck runs the best control and disruption colors in the deck, and also has ways of dealing with resolved permanants more effectively than most dedicated control (outside landstill because they run Pernicious Deed).

The deck has the best sideboard options, such as B2B (if you run it in the side) for Landstill, Stifle for combo, Engineered Plague for Goblins/ other MU's, Extirpate for control (should this be maideck?), Proaganda for agro (I really wish this was Ghostly Prison), and various other answers to most archtypes in the metagame.

It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses outside of Chalice of the Void/ Counterbalance, which can easily be kept off of the table (on that note, prove me wrong).

It shouldn't have any terribly bad MUs (in theory).

and it's 12:00 here and I woke up a 12:00 last night. I should have more later (like when I'm not getting shot in the head while someone's yelling "GO TO SLEEP LITTLE BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"). At any rate, now we have yet another list of reasons to play this deck. I place the task upon you, edgewalker, to find this list's foil.

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 10:40 AM
Why do yo wish propaganda was ghostly prison? Last I checked Ghostly Prison = Propaganda except Prison doesn't pitch to FoW which is kind of important. However, if you do add white, why not just play 3c Control? I mean I don't understand your desire to play suboptimal card choices. Hell 3c/4c Control has already been mapped out for you but you insist on starting from scratch. I'm going to tell you, you don't need to, there have been far better players than you than that have done more work and come out with 3c/4c Control Decks.

Seriously, I feel like I'm trying to argue with Clark Kant again.

EDIT: Finding why your deck is bad won't be hard. I'm going to equate your need to play shitty cards to a heroin addicts need for another hit.

raharu
01-10-2008, 03:58 PM
:(

Really, a card being symetrical and a card being one-sided doesn't seem different at all to you? Ack.

Yeah, some of the card choices were a little sub-optimal, but the list was the work of 10 minutes and a old Turbo Xerox list. Oh fucking well.

@ 3/4c control: and look at thier manabases.Wastland + Extirpate fucks off landstill pretty hard. Look at my manabase. Bulletproof. The deck thrives on consistency. I chose the 2 best control colors, a time-tested idea, and put it to work. 3/4c control has let thier greatest asset (having access to multipule colors) turn into thier greatest weakness. I don't see any reason to extend into anymore colors. Really, it white had a wincondition I liked, I might have splashed white for StP/ Oblivion ring (but then I would loose soo much board material and good cards in general, such as MD Extirpate in a control/ GY combo heavy meta).

@ shitty cards: then you post your version of the deck. This deck, not thresh even though it's "Superior" (please note, the deck was pushed into an agro-control region by the Oddsey block).

Nihil Credo
01-10-2008, 04:09 PM
:(

Really, a card being symetrical and a card being one-sided doesn't seem different at all to you? Ack.
Propaganda is one-sided too. Reading is savage tech.

raharu
01-10-2008, 04:12 PM
Gah. This is true. Fucking old card syntax. That's great. No white then.

mujadaddy
01-10-2008, 04:14 PM
This is a nice thread.

On-topic, I think your win-conditions are too weak & too few. Lots of card draw? You'll need it to see your 4 win-cons. In short, I've seen tighter (as in more consistent) control decks.

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 04:24 PM
What you don't get is you can point out weakness about 3/4c control and say it's weak, but it's not, it wins! You what doesn't win? Your deck. I haven't heard any reports or seen any T8's from the past 2-3 years that have your deck there. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm being realistic. You're deck is not better than any control deck in it's current state. I'm not going to tiptoe around the subject anymore, you are proposing people play a bad deck. There are many variants of control decks out there, but you want people to play one that is bad. I don't see your logic. And don't argue that my logic is flawed, you've been proven time and time again to not have a clue about what you're talking about. Hell you can't even read.

EDIT: If you want my list, I'll have a rough draft up later today. I don't know your meta so I'll use the one I know about.

raharu
01-10-2008, 05:15 PM
@ mujadaddy: 4x Accumulated Knowledge and 4x Ancestral Vision. Do you have a better sugestion? Also, about the lac of win-conditions: the deck is intended to play more like MUC than anything, so 2 of each threat sounds about right. Any sugestions are welcome.

@ edgewalker's list: a general list would be fine, just fine.

@ edgewalker: I'm actually enjoying this conversation. Not necessarily the tone it has taken, but I am enjoying the content.

mujadaddy
01-10-2008, 05:35 PM
@ mujadaddy: 4x Accumulated Knowledge and 4x Ancestral Vision. Do you have a better sugestion? Also, about the lac of win-conditions: the deck is intended to play more like MUC than anything, so 2 of each threat sounds about right. Any sugestions are welcome.
No, I meant that all you have is lots of card draw.

Also, why :b:? Other than LimDul's Vault & the questionable removal, you're not really using :b: ... Tombstalker? I guess...... but you have 4 swamps & 4 fetches. :B::B: is going to be impossible.

Suggestions? Remove Soul > Memory Lapse for everything but Thresh/Ichorid. That would allow you to dump your Dark Banishings (jeez... frikkin' Unsummon would be better) ...

But my real suggestion would be to pack more threats. Or abandon the idea, as the deck is very casual.

raharu
01-10-2008, 06:24 PM
No, I meant that all you have is lots of card draw.

Yeah, this is true, But I really feel that there should be a decent amount of draw. Maybe -2 Ancestral Visions and +2 cantrip?


Also, why :b:? Other than LimDul's Vault & the questionable removal, you're not really using :b: ... Tombstalker? I guess...... but you have 4 swamps & 4 fetches. :B::B: is going to be impossible.

4 basic sources and 4 extra ways to get them. In the late game, this really should never be a problem. Black is for the powerful Sideboard options (Extirpate, Engineered Plague, MD Smother)


Suggestions? Remove Soul > Memory Lapse for everything but Thresh/Ichorid. That would allow you to dump your Dark Banishings (jeez... frikkin' Unsummon would be better) ...

:eek: Really? I thought I was dumb.

Sidenote: reading previous posts is tech. I'm going to test both Smother and Dark Banishig.


But my real suggestion would be to pack more threats. Or abandon the idea, as the deck is very casual.

Threats like... What, pray tell? I'm more than open to sugestions.

I don't play "Casual" deck ideas. Either this thing floats or it swims like the fucking late-game control shark it's supposed to be. I'm going to test this very strenously once I get it together (sometime very soon, probably within the week).

The Legacy Weapon
01-10-2008, 06:39 PM
Why are you so afraid of Counterbalance? Just because Counterbalance/Top is a strong counterwall doesn't mean you can't run low casting cost spells. There's a possibility that they won't draw Counterbalance and if they do, you could counterspell it. Hell, let's all run overcosted spells to avoid the Counterbalance wall and lose to our own crappy deck. Now that's smart Legacy strategy!

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 06:44 PM
Jesus Titty Fuckin Christ thank you, though I think he gets the point. It seems he's abandoned dark banishing for the multitude of better options.

The Legacy Weapon
01-10-2008, 07:02 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm being realistic. You're deck is not better than any control deck in it's current state. I'm not going to tiptoe around the subject anymore, you are proposing people play a bad deck.

I hate to say it but Edgewalker pretty much hit it dead on. There is NOTHING groundbreaking in this thread. I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm just trying to save you a lot of time that you will be wasting by over analyzing this list. You need to either cut your losses here and make up a new deck or adopt an existing deck that's already been proven. If you take option 2, just pick one that would own in your meta. Also, are you picking subpar cards like Ancestral Vision because you're a budget player? Just wondering because that would explain a lot.

raharu
01-10-2008, 07:47 PM
... Ancestral Visions isn't really that "cheap", and I wouldn't play FoW/ fetchlands/ Tombstalker if this was a budget deck.

@ The Legacy Weapon: I'm not going to "over-analyze" it, as you say. I'm going to test it, make whatever revisions are needed to make the deck the best it can be, and if that's not something I'm satisfied with, I'll just do something else (prolly Fish, since I aparently understand that deck very) well).

Oh yeah
@ edgewalker: Jesus Titty Fuckin Christ, I already intended to test a large gamut of removal, which included Smother, and for the last 5 posts I've made I've said that I intended to test both. I mean really, do you guys just pick one thig and hate on it until it's beyond painfully obvious that it doesn't matter anymore?

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 08:54 PM
Honestly, the list I'm going to post is starting to lean towards fish. Hell splash white and you can find a list on the site already.

raharu
01-10-2008, 10:37 PM
... I know. I pretty much developed the creature-base they currently use.

Back on topic: Should CounterTop go somewhere in the deck along with Damnation replacing Disk, or is Disk too multi-facted in it's sweeping abilities to be removed?

edgewalker
01-10-2008, 11:11 PM
No don't run counterbalance, it can be countered by counterbalance. I haven't looked at the fish thread in awhile, what is the current creature base? I ask because I've seen the majority of your posts and I feel you're full of shit.

raharu
01-10-2008, 11:26 PM
3x Phyrexian Negator
4x Mother of Runes
3x Dark Confidant
3x Serra Avenger

There you go. Go read the thread (although no-one has posted there recently).

And now you're going out of your way to be a dick. Congratulations.

Really now, if you're just using this thread as an excuse to be a jerk and not contribute anything, why bother posting? I could sit here and flame all day, but I won't. Wanna know why? Because I'm here to evolve deck ideas and the format at large. Tell me, where are you here?

edgewalker
01-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Because I'm here to evolve deck ideas and the format at large
2001 called, it said don't bother.

BTW: You added Negator, that's it. That creature base is exactly the same as it always has been except instead of meddling mage /Juton Grunt it plays negator. I wouldn't take full credit for creating the creature base when you added 3 cards. You'd be better off playing Grunt anyways since grunt tends to do better against goyf. Yes negator kills goyfs but he takes your entire board along with it.

mujadaddy
01-11-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't play "Casual" deck ideas. Either this thing floats or it swims like the fucking late-game control shark it's supposed to be. I'm going to test this very strenously once I get it together (sometime very soon, probably within the week).I don't think this deck would survive into late game, not with 4 threats. BEST case scenario is you both top-deck after you've countered everything they try, then you luck out and pull one of your TWO Tombstalkers, or that other janky guy.

Shtriga
01-11-2008, 03:09 PM
Would a white splash be superior? I could run Oblivion Ring instead of Smother, and that would be a multifacated answer to everything. I wanted to splash bw for Vindicate MD, Ghostly Prison
Thoughts?

you already have propaganda which is the exact same card. why would you want to run ghostly prison instead on a splashed color rather than your main?

raharu
01-13-2008, 09:54 PM
@ Shtriga: Syntax error. Also, Propaganda is mildly superior because of the timing of the trigger.

@ mujadaddy: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
MUC runs about 2-4, with 4 being the highest I've seen. You're going to tell me that a control deck should run a large number of threats?? Wow, I guess I just don't know how to design a deck for this crazy metagame you're presented... Oh well. If this is so, just ignore this thread.

@ edgewalker: Please look at previous incarnations (the more recent ones) of the creature base. Yeah, I just returned it to it's roots and gave it a better threat (Mother of Runes + Phyrexian Negator = epic) and a different feel to the deck as a whole. Nothing majior (I'm being serious here, not fecious), but the smallest changes really do make a huge difference, and that's true for any deck, not just this or Fish (/Ubw thresh).

Sorry I took so long to get back. Spending a weekend with the family. Flame away.

edgewalker
01-13-2008, 09:56 PM
So you basically copied someone else and took the credit?

raharu
01-14-2008, 03:42 PM
It makes the deck more controling, alters the pace of the deck and allows you to decide when you want to finish the game. It does make a difference, and the compressed cteature-base increases the amount of spells you can play. The deck also plays CounterTop. It has better all-around match-ups and plays different than "Fish". This is not the thread to discus this. Since you are God, I would figure that you would know where I'm going with this.

Aside: just because the N&D doesn't recieve very much moderation doesn't mean you have a free pass to be a dick. If you don't like the deck, don't post in this thread. If you have a concern, post. If you don't like my card choices, say something. But if you either don't like the deck concept or you simply have nothing better to do, don't come into a thread and flame it up. I mean FUCK, it not like there aren't other parts of the internet. shit...

mujadaddy
01-14-2008, 03:54 PM
@ mujadaddy: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
MUC runs about 2-4, with 4 being the highest I've seen. You're going to tell me that a control deck should run a large number of threats?? Wow, I guess I just don't know how to design a deck for this crazy metagame you're presented... Oh well. If this is so, just ignore this thread.

This ISN'T MUC. It's UBC. Aggression would be your friend.

Like I said, BEST case scenario is "you both top-deck after you've countered everything they try, then you luck out and pull one of your TWO Tombstalkers, or that other janky guy."

Any amount of hate, and you've got no chance. The turn after you tap out to cast Nev's Disk, you'll lose.

raharu
01-15-2008, 12:39 AM
Pray tell, what hate? Extirpate could very well wreck this deck, but we should have 4 in the board, so really it then becomes a matter of luck/ bait and switch. At any rate, how is this deck really that different than traditional MUC? It just has some cantrips, allowing a lower general curve and lets me run a longer list of spells because the deck is lighter on land. In all verity, some Chrome Moxen would be nice, but -2 lands would be the only thing I can think of at the moment, and I would like 16 lands and 4 Moxen... Oh well. What would you suggest to make the deck more controling, ergo, less agressive?