[Deck - CaNG Finalist] I Will Survive [Archive]

Isamaru

01-08-2008, 11:54 PM

I WILL SURVIVE
CaNGD Submission by Stephen Judd

At first I was afraid, I was Putrified…
Kept thinking I could never live without using the same old main and side;
but then I spent so many nights thinking how they did me wrong,
and I grew strong, and learned what cards could get along…

But still you netdeck! …from StarCityGames.
I just walked in to find you here with that sad Tarmogoyf in its place;
I should have changed that stupid card, I should have made you learn to think.
If I’d have known for just one second that you’d insist on cards that stink…

Oh and now I go! – I’ll combo my synergistic cards.
Just gained infinite life now, because you thought I was a retard.
Weren’t you the one who tried to tell me I was living in a lie?
You thought I’d play Crumble. You thought I’d concede and die…

Oh no, not I! I’ll play “I Will Survive”
For as long as I know how to think, I know my decks will thrive.
I’ve got this entire format to build with, I’ve got all the cards within it,
If we stop throwing Brainstorm into every blue deck and think for just one minute…

I’ll play “I Will Survive”…

Table of Contents

1.0 Introduction
2.0 History and Background
3.0 Process of Building the Deck
4.0 The Current Decklist

4.1 Card Explanations
4.2 Tentative Sideboard Choices
4.3 Possible Card Considerations
5.0 General Tips for Playing the Deck
6.0 MWS Screenshots: The Deck in Action
7.0 Matchup Analysis in progress
8.0 Strengths of the Deck, Why Now?
9.0 Conclusion

1.0 Introduction

Welcome! The “song” above is trying to explain that one of the main reasons to play this deck is the “rogue” factor, as some call it. Basically, the best reason to play any non-mainstream deck is that the opponent has no idea what cards are in it, what outs you have, what your deck can do, what to sideboard against you, how good (or bad – this could work to your advantage, surprisingly) you are as a player, nor does the opponent have any experience playing against your style of deck, and if you successfully take this into account, then you won’t have the style of any other deck in the first place.

Although some of the submissions using great cards, accepted methods (some with slightly new choices), and “strong” cards might be equally strong or stronger than this deck, if their strategy is recognizable, then they may be at a slight disadvantage without realizing it. I am not trying to insult any submission here, I mean to take a look at the differences in style, and I do not speak of all of the submissions.

Others have taken a similar route to deckbuilding as I have: the idea that using “slightly weak” cards when viewed independently, understanding that the sum of the synergy between two slightly weaker cards is, many times, stronger than an obviously powerful choice.

Oddly, this phenomenon is usually referred to by a special name, even though it theoretically shouldn’t be fundamentally separate in this game. Anyway, this deck is full of interactions that fall into this category. As with anything, approach it with an open mind, and I look forward to any and all thoughtful feedback. Thank you guys!

2.0 History and Background

I know that sometimes these stories are boring, so I’ll try to keep it brief. :smile:

For a few years, my friend David Jezusek and my favorite color combinations have been UB and GW. My friend’s project deck is his GW deck, and mine was Vile Horror for the last couple years.

When I first started the game, I played with white in standard, and fell in love with the card Promise of Bunrei. It rotated out of Standard, so I built a Legacy deck a year later with Saffi Eriksdotter, Soul Warden, and some other sacrificial creatures like Sakura Tribe-Edler.

Then they printed Essence Warden, so I added that to the deck. Later, Cloudthresher was printed, so I put that in because of the trick you can play with Evoke and Saffi Eriksdotter. (I also tried Briarhorn :smile:)

The deck was pretty slow as an aggro deck, but it was still fun to Saffi a Cloudthresher into play, gaining 6 life from it and the Bunrei tokens… then convoking Chord of Calling to fetch more… etc.

I created a deck with Wizards for the Create-A-New-Good-Deck contest, but it wasn’t doing very well. I tried reviving a few of my older decks: Defense of the Heart, David and my Cleric deck, etc. Each didn’t seem strong enough, and the tribal theme seriously hurt their originality factor in the contest, and Finn, Bladewing, and others I talked to couldn’t think of anything to help the Defense of the Heart deck.

3.0 Process of Building the Deck

If you read this, you won’t have to read the individual card explanation.

I picked up my GW deck again a few weeks ago and wondered what would happen if I put in Loyal Retainers for the infinite-life combo in the style of Type 2’s Crypt Champion, willingly planning to be a bad aggro deck with a combo finish… surprisingly, the combo was faster and more resilient than I thought.

The trick was making Loyal Retainers actually better than… a combo-enabler that was otherwise a weak 1/1 for 3. I simply decided to play cheap Legendary creatures: I put in 3x Gaddock Teeg since I was still wondering if he was as strong as we all thought, and because he didn’t affect any of the other cards in the deck. I also included 2x Isao, Enlightened Bushi because he has very useful abilities, and 1x-2x Iwamori of the Open Fist to help become aggro out a little bit better… The deck started falling together from there: Pendelhaven and Karakas became a natural fit, making Gaddock Teeg suddenly a good bear when his abilities weren’t relevant, and even working well with Saffi Eriskdotter.

In the original deck, I played Chord of Calling, because it was one of David’s favorites (my friend and testing partner), but because of the Gaddock Teegs, I switched to playing 3x Eladamri’s Call, happy that GW had such a powerful creature tutor, and it was almost as good as Chord of Calling.

I then decided to try out Survival of the Fittest, originally because I wanted to offset the fact that I played 4x Saffi Eriksdotter and 4x Loyal Retainers. I figured that having extras in hand (which after playing for a few weeks now I realize doesn’t happen like I thought – they have become too useful) would be the price I had to pay for playing the full amount, hoping to get an early combo. I wanted to cycle them into the lesser-numbered copies of Isao and the other legendary creatures I was playing.

Perhaps because of my relatively little experience with the card, after a few sample hands/games, I realized (as some in this contest are too) just how powerful it is! It became worth it to play the 1x Squee, Goblin Nabob, even if it were sometimes not the most amazing opening hand-inclusion.

After that, Silvos, Rogue Elemental was put into the deck because he was Legendary, yet still not a horrible opening hand draw because of his fair mana-cost. I apparently overlooked the fact that Rec-Sur and Full-English-Breakfast have been taking advantage of the fact that you can send powerful creatures straight to the graveyard for reanimation. I could search for Silvos, and then discard him to search for Loyal Retainers, playing the retainers, and immediately sacrificing them!

I immediately did more searches for Legendary “winning” reanimation targets, and a few came to mind. I rejected Akroma Angel of Wrath, and Reya Dawnbringer, because I knew I’d be sick to my stomach if I drew them in the opening hand (however, Squee is a necessary evil in this way)… The only Legendary creature that isn’t a worthless draw in aggro mode (recall the fact that this deck can/will play a few different roles depending on the draw) is one that had Cycling, Morph, or Evoke… Only Akroma, Angel of Fury could claim this. Protection from Swords to Plowshares and bounce was good enough for her inclusion as a one-of, and the best part is the opponent often thinks you are playing Exalted Angel and will kill the morph creature. Moreover, you can set up a situation where you can chump-block an attacking creature, and save the morph with Saffi Eriksdotter, returning a flipped Akroma. :smile:

A win condition was needed: Loaming Shaman seemed to fill the role of also being an aggro creature, and I tried (and sadly later rejected) Commander Eesha (an unblockable 2 a turn, but it didn’t seem strong enough, even with Karakas). While looking at Eesha, I recalled that it was used in Finn’s Death and Taxes, so, while on this train of thought, I might as well use one copy of Mangara of Corondor in the deck because I am also using Karakas and, as a Survival target, it give an out to Worship or Solitary Confinement, etc.

The icing for this cake, however, was provided when David and I went through a Legendary Creature search and found Asmira, Holy Avenger (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/316.html), which was apparently printed for me personally. :wink: Kidding, haha... Anyway, I don't normally like the idea of a vulnerable creature trying to win, but as you'll see / read below in the explanation, she isn't the main goal of the deck by any means. She is not how the deck wins, though she is too perfect for the deck not to use at least 1 of her.

4.0 The Current Decklist

As a warning, if you skipped right to this, certain choices or interactions may not be apparent.

Note: This version's Glowrider and Tarmogoyf MB/SB are swappable depending on the metagame.

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

// Creatures (31)
The Mana (5)
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/245.html)
4 Loyal Retainers (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/12.html)

The Legends (4/8)
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/94.html)
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (10)
4 Glowrider
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dust Elemental / Stonecloaker

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

1 Genesis / Kataki, War's Wage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tivadar of Thorn
4 Tarmogoyf

Yixlid Splash "Halfway" Version

// Lands (21)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
1 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

// Creatures (31)
The Mana (5)
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/245.html)
4 Loyal Retainers (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/12.html)

The Legends (4/8)
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/129.html) / Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/94.html)
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (9)
4 Glowrider
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Yixlid Jailer

1 Genesis
2 Tivadar of Thorn

The Original Decklist

This was the starting point of the discussion.

// Lands (19)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Plains
4 Savannah

1 Pendelhaven
2 Karakas (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/248.html)
1 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (33)

The Mana (7) 4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (14)
4 Essence Warden
2 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/245.html)
4 Loyal Retainers (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/12.html)

The Legends (8)
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/129.html)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Asmira, Holy Avenger (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/316.html)
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/94.html)

The Utility (4)
2 Cloudthresher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant

1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/129.html)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Kataki, War's Wage

Isamaru

01-08-2008, 11:57 PM

This somehow got deleted... I am in the process of retyping it from scratch, so please be patient.

4.1 Card Explanations

Notice how a lot of decks on forums have Card Explanation sections that list reasons such as “if you’re playing blue, you play this card” or “this card is redonkuluz” etc.? Well, that’s most often an excuse for poor deck-building. Anyone can build a deck after picking a color combination and choosing the “best” cards for it, but it takes effort to take what the best cards for the deck are into consideration, and I am happy to see a lot of this being done more often here recently, on the Source (and it is why I “migrated” here). Anyway, here goes…

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy

I chose this mana base because of Magus of the Moon and Wasteland could disrupt it far too much without a basic plains, as Bladewing advised.

Karakas’ ability is (as most know) so powerful, that it’s worth all the nonbasic risks to play it. It oddly even randomly screws opponents that play Isamaru, or other Legendary creatures. It can even hurt opponents playing Death and Taxes using Karakas by acting as land destruction at worst. The 2 Horizon Canopy are a safeguard to prevent getting land flooded.

1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

I started with 8 elves, but have gone down to 5 mana creatures now. The small black splash led me to use 2 Birds of Paradise... besides that, they are often a necessary tutor to chump block a flyer. Rofellos usually has a bullseye on his head which can be good for our other creatures, and being a Legend is obviously a plus in this deck.

4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/245.html)
4 Loyal Retainers (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/12.html)

I play 5 wardens because they are excellent creatures even without the combo. Max of Saffi and Retainers are because they are especially important to the deck, and Saffi dies often enough that you can play 4.

Gaddock Teeg / Glowrider

The power of cards like this and Meddling Mage is that they add a small clock to a slightly disruptive ability. Anyway, when Gaddock Teeg's ability is not relevant, he is busy being a slightly better blinking (with Karakas) 2/2 for 2.

Glowrider can come down on turn 2 oftentimes, and have at least some effect on the opponent at worst, at medium they hurt control and threshold somewhat, and at best they stop storm combo in its tracks.

Isao, Enlightened Bushi (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/129.html)

This card is very helpful – especially for a deck that often wants to stall against an aggro deck. The legendary status is nice with Karakas if regeneration is not enough (opposing Swords to Plowshares, etc.), and of course with Loyal Retainers. He holds off Mongeese and Tarmogoyfs and creatures with Equipment for a long time which would otherwise have to be done with a Witness and a Saffi... Lastly, he can survive a Pernicious Deed.

Squee, Goblin Nabob

Worth being a dead draw sometimes (if you don't have a Birds of Paradise or Survival) to make Survival a large amount better.

Mangara of Corondor

The Karakas combo is old now, but he is in simply as a way to remove pesky enchantments like Solitary Confinement or Worship, etc. He could be sideboarded if additional room was needed.

Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/94.html)

As said in the creation of the deck, the importance of her as the fattie-oops-I-win-because-it-wasn’t-safe-to-combo-normally of choice is that she isn’t dead when you want to go aggro. A Gray Ogre doesn’t seem good, but it’s better than a dead card, and Saffi Erriksdotter encourages her to die after being morphed. When going aggro, the opponent almost always seems to think that she is Exalted Angel (because it looks like a white aggro deck), and will spend removal on her almost immediately for fear of her being flipped into Exalted. So, because of Exalted Angel’s existence, and because of Saffi, her life as a morph creature is almost always better than a random Gray Ogre.

Eternal Witness

A very interesting play is double blocking with Eternal Witness and Saffi Erriksdotter, then having Saffi save Witness, and return to return Saffi to your hand. You gain 2*Wardens-in-play every time it happens, or have the option to let Saffi die, returning some other card, perhaps letting a Recruiter bring her back, effectively trading a Recruiter in play for a card in your graveyard during one of these iterations.

Besides this, Eternal Witness saves a countered Loaming Shaman or sometimes secures a land drop. Her inclusion and ability is greatly appreciated, and she often means you can have 8+ Swords to Plowshares.

Loaming Shaman

This, as most people now know, is a random-trump to Ichorid or Loam decks at times, and is in the deck to secure a win if you must decide it based on who will deck out first. It is also a decent aggro creature if you must go aggro this game, and it has once shuffled back all the lands in Landstill’s graveyard to prevent Crucible dominance.

Swords to Plowshares

For a random metagame, Swords to Plowshares is generally a useful card. It removes utility creatures, but its true strength is when it is reused with Eternal Witness.

Survival of the Fittest

I was originally playing 3 because I was playing it without Squee as a casual tutor that I thought might be better than Eladamri’s Call, but 3 is almost never the right number of any card, this included. So, it’s worth the sometimes extra dead copies you’ll draw of it, because it often means you’re winning if you had enough land. And if you didn’t have enough land, then another non-land card that wasn’t Survival wasn’t going to help you anyway.

4.2 Tentative Sideboard Choices

Keep in mind that the sideboard is not fully functional, it is rather a collection of ideas currently, and it would change depending on a metagame, even after being tweaked.

3x Krosan Grip

This can be cast easily enough and is very helpful. It destroys pesky things, even in Landstill, including Crucible and Mishra’s Factory, so it can be brought in while often still not being entirely dead, etc.
1x Wispmare

Wispmare is searcheable with Survival, doges a lot of CMC hate with Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, etc. Usually Enchantments are more feared than Artifacts. With Saffi out, you can Evoke Wispmare and save it with Saffi to destroy 2 Enchantments.

Gaddock Teeg / Glowrider

The power of cards like this and Meddling Mage is that they add a small clock to a slightly disruptive ability. Anyway, when Gaddock Teeg's ability is not relevant, he is busy being a slightly better blinking (with Karakas) 2/2 for 2.

Glowrider can come down on turn 2 oftentimes, and have at least some effect on the opponent at worst, at medium they hurt control and threshold somewhat, and at best they stop storm combo in its tracks.

4x Yixlid Jailer

He is a nice creature to have against Loam, Ichorid, and others. I think he is worth the small splash, at least for now. He doesn't affect the combo or any part of our deck other than Squee, which would most likely simply be boarded out for the Jailer. Also, you could consider playing 3x Yixlid Jailer 1x Loaming Shaman (extra) as a split.
1x Genesis

I guess Genesis is in the sideboard because he hasn't been that great except vs. control / Landstill. Genesis could be taken out for something more helpful.
2x Tivadar of Thorn

This could be considered if we want to improve the Goblins matchup... I don't think it's too horrible.

4.3 Possible Card Considerations

Tarmogoyf

Yes, he often plays a threatening role of “if you don’t deal with this, you still lose to that” situation, but I wouldn’t want to see room cleared for him mainboard. I have posted a list including him if he suits your style better.
Sensei’s Divining Top

I had this in for a moment, and it fills a niche, but, in the end, I don’t need to have another card that can’t be played under Chalice at 1. It takes up a lot of mana, sometimes. Horizon Canopy was supposed to fulfill the same role: redirecting a flood, be it land or nonland flood.
Sylvan Library

This was suggested by georgjorge, but I am not sure on it yet.
Quirion Ranger

She was good at protecting Savannahs from Wasteland, but in the end, I needed the room.
Aether Vial

I think the deck is better off without it for now.

Asmira, Holy Avenger (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/316.html)

Not too expensive, a legendary creature (for Karakas, Retainer), Green-White (our colors), and a respectable 2/3 Flyer? That’s affordable, even in aggro mode. And then adding to the equation that she, like Gleancrawler, looks over the entire turn when her End-of-turn ability triggers (seeing that you combo’d this turn) shows she is a truly a hidden gem that only Legacy deckbuilding can present.

The amazing play is Survival-ing Squee/creature into Asmira into Retainers, then play Loyal Retainers. You perform the combo (set up on earlier turns) with Saffi, and then, on the last iteration, after you have a life total in the trillions, you choose to return Asmira instead of Saffi. She looks over the entire turn, and becomes a very large flying creature.

Like with Teysa in the Saffi + Crypt Champion combo, she can technically replace a Warden in the 3-card combo, but it is always safest to gain the life first, then try to find a win condition (her or Loaming Shaman, etc.)

Still, I wasn’t originally going to play any extra win condition other than Loaming Shaman and Akroma, but I think, unlike Teysa, she is actually somewhat useful and synergistic even if you are not combo-ing. So, keep in mind that she could be taken out of the deck if some other strategy comes up.
Caller of the Claw

sasa_batora suggested this as a replacement to Asmira, but because it is not Legendary, it must be hardcast after the combo (you often wont have the mana), and it is often useless if the opponent is not playing Pernicious Deed. I am not 100% sure on this yet, but I think that we aren't too worried about mass removal, and if we are, we should be sideboarding something to address it indirectly like mana disruption.

Iwamori of the Open Fist

He is a strong aggro creature, but I am under the impression that Isao is better in general because we will be in the defensive position many times.
Cloudthresher

As mentioned before, it combos with Saffi Eriksdotter at worst, other time it pitches to Survival for being a bit too expensive, but any higher than 6 mana would be hard to reach in this deck. Options are why this card is especially good, and the Reach sometimes matters. The flash is most likely the best part, because it allows you to surprise block a creature (Tarmogoyf) and then untap and attack for 7. This card was disgustingly pushed at 6 mana, and I may as well take advantage of Wizard’s random decision to push this block. This card isn’t supportive to the combo, but it has no drawback (unless you have Bird of Paradise out), and can win a game if you have nothing else or are losing.
Silvos, Rogue Elemental

He was in the deck for a week or so, but he is a bit expensive. I found myself getting Akroma more often. Still, he is quite powerful, and can push a game through a board stall better than Cloudthresher by far because of the regeneration.
Rhox

Bladewing suggested this. He is an unblockable 5/5 after a fashion, but he is quite expensive and is definitely not Legendary.
Brion Stoutarm

I originally considered him as a way to win after comboing without attacking, but it still involves a creature staying in play, and in the end, Loaming Shaman won out.
Dosan the Falling Leaf

A little expensive for the aggro after-role I’d like him to take. Too bad he doesn’t cost 2.
Glissa Sunseeker

I suppose her ability isn’t always relevant, but she has a good body.
Lieutenant Kirtar

He is a bit too weak as a 2/2 because it is not enough of a clock. As a 3/2, I’d definitely like him a lot more.

Eiganjo Castle / Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

These aren’t strong enough to make up for being nonbasic, sadly, mainly because of Tarmogoyf’s existence.
Windbrisk Heights

I am a big fan of this card, and it could be good in this deck. However, I won’t be attacking with 3 creatures often enough to make the drawback worth it of being nonbasic and CIPtapped.

Exalted Angel

She seems too expensive to actually pull off, distracting you from the original combo. It’s too bad she’s not legendary. She could replace Cloudthresher, functionally.
Natural Order + Phantom Nishoba

Too hard to support, even though it wins. I could almost consider sideboarding it in rather than Iwamori… but its vulnerable to countermagic, and I think I can already beat Goblins/aggro.
Eternal Dragon and Loxodon Hierarch

Not legendary… and they don’t seem to do too much for this deck.
Proclamation of Rebirth and Promise of Bunrei

These were from the old deck, and take up too much space in the new one.
Jotun Grunt

I think Loaming Shaman is better for this deck for substantial reasons.
Kataki, War's Wage

I suppose you could always sideboard 1x, but he is probably not needed.
Glowrider and Thorn of Amethyst

Bladewing believes that this is too slow, but with only 8 noncreature, nonland cards, they are very useable.

5.0 General Tips for Playing the Deck

“You will survive,” so don’t think you need to block damage if you are at 22 and they attack with a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. You will eventually draw something that will either pull you out or win, so it is usually best to save all your creatures until the last moment.

If you are playing vs. control, try to resolve cards individually, play smart and conservatively in the light of a sweeper, and attack aggressively when there is lower risk, especially with mana creatures, etc.

Against decks with Daze, tap your mana creatures last if their board is clear of creatures, so that after preventing them from Dazing a spell first mainphase, you can attack them.

If you are playing vs. storm combo, try to prevent life loss from your own fetchlands until the last moment, and gain as much life from Wardens (I’ve hit at least 40 life before vs. creature decks, vs. combo, you can most likely get to 25-27 life by yourself) as possible and then attack or combo out yourself.

6.0 MWS Screenshots: The Deck in Action

Here are 30+ MWS Screenshots for you to browse to see the deck in action:

Click here (http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Isamaru333/I%20Will%20Survive/?albumview=slideshow) to see a slide show.
Or here (http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Isamaru333/I%20Will%20Survive/?albumview=grid) to see them in grid form.

Isamaru

01-08-2008, 11:57 PM

7.0 Matchup Analysis

Sorry about this, but I haven't had time to test as thoroughly and rigorously as I want to yet because school has started back up. I will be working on this over the next few weeks.

These got deleted too because of the character limit when editing. :frown:

8.0 Strengths of the Deck, Why Now?

Every tier/played combo in Legacy has one thing in common: It is finite.
Storm combos, Cephalid Breakfast, and even Belcher are all finite. Solidarity is gone, as well. By definition, non-combo decks cannot deal infinite damage either, and most do not have a way to prevent from not decking first.

As mentioned before, the surprise factor is quite strong. Additionally, the combo is, interestingly, a lot less vulnerable than Crypt Champion used to be, because both cards end up in play at the end of the loop, while Champion would end in the graveyard.

Furthermore, the combo is not affected by Yixlid Jailer! :smile:
If they Pithing Needle some card, who cares? (as Gadiel has taught us to wonder) Either destroy the Needle, or just win instead while they're wasting time.

Superior strategy: I believe Flores has put this concept into words, but it is apparent that in aggro vs. aggro, the one that can gain infinite life is better off.

If the opponent plays Duress, good luck discarding something. Playing only 8 noncreature, nonland cards really helps. Still, Thoughtseize was printed, but people still play this card, so it is still relevant.

A combo deck… without the top-heavy nature or investment of a normal combo deck. I personally love that. :smile: A resolved Stifle sometimes just means you have to wait a turn to Survival for another copy of Saffi/Retainers (usually Saffi will end up in the graveyard, depending on which ability or trigger they stifle). Unlike with Crypt Champion, creature removal mid-combo can only kill one of the pieces, not leave you without both.

9.0 Conclusion

This is a lot stronger than it looks on paper, so shuffle it up on MWS – you don’t have to only take my word for it. I haven’t had time to test every matchup yet, so I am open to suggestions that can improve an unperceived weakness, either through sideboarding or some other overall strategy. Thank you for your feedback! :smile:

APriestOfGix

01-09-2008, 12:05 AM

OMG FONT SIZE AND COLORS!!!

(i really can't even read you post it is SO annoying)

Final Warning. Your post is flaming spam. Goodbye.

-PR

etrigan

01-09-2008, 02:04 AM

While I like your combo, I have some concerns.

- Dont you fizzle to Swords to Plowshares and sometimes to bounce? I would suggest Sylvan Safekeeper.

- What happens when you cant stick Survival? How often can you draw into your combo naturally? I dont think you have enough beatdown to get the job done when you dont.

georgjorge

01-09-2008, 04:48 AM

Glissa Sunseeker - I suppose her ability isn’t always relevant, but she has a good body.

Lol. Speaking of which, I really like the lyrics.

Isn't there a green Sorcery which can tutor up Legends for 1G or G ? Although you might ust play Eladamri's Call...given that your combo is entirely creature-based, I'm wondering about the lack of these.

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 08:52 AM

@etrigan

nobody plays bounce mainboard for the most part, but as I addressed in the post, one of the best things about this combo is that creature removal mid-combo can only lose you one creature maximum, unlike with Crypt Champion + Saffi, where you had two at risk mid-combo.

Saffi targets Retainers and they respond to her ability by removing Retainers from the game with StP. In response to that, or any removal, you sacrifice him to return Saffi. The difference is, they did stop the combo, but at least Retainers ends up in the graveyard. Any other time they cast removal would only lose you one creature as well (think about it), and you get priority immediately after playing the last piece of the combo in your first main phase. One of the strongest things about it is that it can be played all in one turn for 6 mana, often 5 mana for the non-Warden pieces, since a Warden will be out earlier usually.

Sylvan Safekeeper, as with Hulk Flash, will stop my combo mid-combo because they target eachother, so it won't help, sadly. He also doesn't help the aggro plan because he is so small. (Same for Bodygaurd.)

I should have enough beatdown to get the job done because I am either combo-ing or aggro-ing. It depends on your draw, first, and your choice, second. You chose your role in a matchup, and if they have left one blue open the whole game and you know they're playing Stifle, then stick to beatdown until you have enough redundancy that it doesn't matter. Or force them to waste Stifles on important other activations such as Fetchlands, Retainers targetting Akroma, Witness CIP, Karakas activation, etc.

Let's compare how often you'd draw at least one each of a 6/4/4 to how often you might recognize you'd draw at least one each of a 4/4/4: In most games with a UW deck, you will draw at least one each of Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Swords to Plowshares. True, you have blue to dig, but then consider that there are 4x Survival as well after that, too.

@georgjorge

Glad you like the lyrics :smile:

Time of Need is a sorcery, sadly, and - although I didn't give it that much time in the deck to see - Eladamri's Call seemed worse than Survival because it wasn't reusable. :frown:

I will be adding cards that are brought up and suggested to the opening post's list of them so that there is one place to see them all - stay tuned :smile:

Finn

01-09-2008, 10:20 AM

Hell yeah. I taught this kid everything he knows.:wink:
Seriously, I did not. But I love this deck. SJ, I saw you post your opinions of Loyal Retainers a while back, and it never occurred to me that you would pursue that card. Asimira is the icing on the proverbial cake.

-completely and totally original. check
-the potential to be brrrrroken. (whether or not it is actually good enough now I have no idea, but it can certainly be made to be) check
-uses cards that Isamaru had to include links for because NOBODY knows wtf they are. check

Spike, meet my friend Johnny.

I feel like my own submission is a ridiculous waste of unoriginality by comparison.

Judges, I hope that you are not swayed by the mountain of attention being paid to one particular submission, and are able to see how cool this is. BTW, for the purposes of full disclosure, I DO have a bias. But consider that I have a submission of my own in this contest, and I still think this is the best deck.

Bovinious

01-09-2008, 11:42 AM

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 12:20 PM

The deck and combo seems solid if you can get a Survival out and stick it, but I dont really see much of a backup plan (other than drawing all peices...) here like other Survival decks have in the form of Goyf/Geese. Other Survival decks also have some hand disruption as well, and while they arnt great w/o Survival out, they dont seem to roll over as much as this deck seems to without Survival. How is this deck better than other Survival decks out there?

If you read 3.0 Process of Building the Deck, I sort of described that Survival was almost an "afterthought." Shuffle it up and see how often you draw the combo without Survival; I don't want to / won't make any extravagant claims to you guys, but I think you should draw what you need to either combo or aggro pretty often, even without Survival.

So, the deck is not "a Survival deck" - and, to answer your question, then, I guess I think it's better than other Survival decks out there because: (besides not being a "survival deck" / built around the card) it includes a combo that does more than Welder in creatures like Welder Survival (though that concept is still strong, thanks to a lot of work from Finn and the people on the forums who worked together on it to find the best combinations and proportions, etc.), or find strong creatures to then play like RGSurvivalAggro or "Not Quite Survival" do with Flame-Tongue Kavu, Ravenous Baloth or Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, etc.

So, the decklists posted on CaNGD should be starting points for discussion. If you think that it is lacking something, or you see a good way to splash a color for disruption or discard, or even if Tarmogoyf could perhaps invariably add some element of resilience to the deck, and so on, then please don't hesitate to test it out / discuss it. :smile:

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 12:59 PM

@Isamaru - I love the Loyal Retainers/Sotf/fattie combo. That's a sweet idea I would of never thought of something like that. Do you have a playset of Loyal Retainters? I just checked SCG.com and they had 1 left at $20 bucks. I'm not sure if your deck drove it to that price or not, but I got to give you props for finding a way to abuse that card.

georgjorge

01-09-2008, 01:00 PM

@georgjorge

Glad you like the lyrics :smile:

Time of Need is a sorcery, sadly, and - although I didn't give it that much time in the deck to see - Eladamri's Call seemed worse than Survival because it wasn't reusable. :frown:

While it's not reusable, one thing I learned from playing Survival is that it is a bit slow for this format, even Welder-Survival. I've lost many games where I got Survival down, even though there seems to be the general notion that "Survival is gg if it sticks", because my land got destroyed, my creatures bounced or removed or countered, while some Goyfs, Mongeese, Shades, Specters, or Goblins delivered the last damage to me. I've no clue how fast your deck is by itself, just saying that it better be rather fast to make good use of Survival.

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 02:20 PM

I think this deck needs more Crop Rotation along with Wasteland. I've actually tested GW decks with Crop Rotation and Wasteland and it's just too good to be ignored.

Sims

01-09-2008, 02:22 PM

I think this deck needs more Crop Rotation along with Wasteland. I've actually tested GW decks with Crop Rotation and Wasteland and it's just too good to be ignored.

Always having Wasteland when you need it is nice, but is trading 3 cards for 1 land (with no crucible for exploitz) really worth the substantial tempo loss you're going to net yourself with something that doesn't really help your combo any? It doesn't really seem so to me, not in this deck at least.

Peter_Rotten

01-09-2008, 02:23 PM

After a few godfishes (getting a turn 3 combo win and plenty of 4+ wins including Survival) I have some quick questions:

How's the mana base holding up for you? I'm getting quite a few hands in which I have NO lands. Has this been much of an issue in your testing?

Two, is it possible to further streamline the deck? Can you cut Isao (what is he needed for?) and that card that I'm starting to refer to as Ass-Mirror? Genesis could be a natural inclusion and then maybe another E Witness.

edit: I don't goldfish decks, I GODfish them :tongue:

Zach Tartell

01-09-2008, 02:34 PM

Judges, I hope that you are not swayed by the mountain of attention being paid to one particular submission, and are able to see how cool this is. BTW, for the purposes of full disclosure, I DO have a bias. But consider that I have a submission of my own in this contest, and I still think this is the best deck.

I Will Survive (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8245) is interesting, no? Not sure about viability yet, but it's at least interesting.

We've got our eyes open, brothers. Don't fret.

I have to say that I like the idea of not-storm based (or, for that matter, copy + paste based) combo decks. IWS (let's see that stick) is pretty legit-looking. It incorporates a solid game play into the shell of an existing deck, and doesn't seem to suck too much ass while doing it. I'm interested, to say the least.

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 02:35 PM

C.P.

01-09-2008, 02:38 PM

Wow, nice build.

By the way, has living wish been considered on top of survival?

scrumdogg

01-09-2008, 02:45 PM

Always having Wasteland when you need it is nice, but is trading 3 cards for 1 land (with no crucible for exploitz) really worth the substantial tempo loss you're going to net yourself with something that doesn't really help your combo any? It doesn't really seem so to me, not in this deck at least.

That would be a substantive no :confused: as it doesn't address the major concerns about the deck (which is an awesome idea btw, don't get me wrong). There are several problems as I see them, one of which has already been mentioned somewhat. What do you do when they STP your first combo piece as you're trying to cast the second combo piece? This is a problem only half the time, admittedly, but having a Saffi in play & a Retainers in the yard - NOT from play - is the logical mana progression & a problem. You have no target to use the first one on, leaving you hanging, same as if they counter the second combo piece. Creature based combo decks use Aether Vial for a reason. It allows you to work around most common forms of hate to starting your combo. It also means you aren't nearly as concerned with getting your lands & your mana weasels shredded, a far too common occurrence that traditionally gives SotF decks issues (trust me on this, I've been playing Survival in high level tournaments since well before Legacy replaced 1.5). Vial is great if it hits and fine if it sucks up a counter or destruction spell, as that should let Survival hit. Turn 1 Vial also speeds up the consistency of your combo, which in an era of ever speedier opposing combo, cannot help but be a good thing. Having the ability to Vial in a Teeg could also be fantastic as well as aiding the singleton Mangara/D&T plan, actually creating the lock with your existing Mangara & Karakas.
My other concern is the belief that this deck is 'going aggro' on anybody. 2/2s for 2 do not an aggro rush create, sorry. Isao, Loaming Shaman, Cloudthresher (wtf? when are you ever going to have 6 mana at a point in time when it would be relevant & you're not winning huge anyway? It also cuts you off from Birds effectively, which is a bad thing). Asmira seems really cool, but has she been effective? Have you ever had it be completely dead since you put out a Teeg? Akroma gets around that by morphing at least & makes a decent threat on the board with your Legendary swapping plan. This deck, if it wants to threaten anyone before Turn 13 without a combo option, needs a better aggro plan (or more combo built in) :cool:
Lastly (yes more than 2 concerns) is the lack of Genesis. Genesis & Witness are what allow to keep pounding control until they lose the ability to say no...and you establish control.
That being said, awesome deck idea & beginning, I will be trying to put this together myself (IRL, so anyone looking to trade Loyal Retainers send me a PM, I'll make it worth your while) :wink: and supporting your efforts with the deck.

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 04:16 PM

@Peter_Rotten

Ass-mirror is not the best creature ever, but she is perfect for the deck... time will tell if she is needed or not. :smile:

I am glad to see that your God Fishing has been going well. Goldfishing is often the flashiest thing that makes combo decks likeable, but resilience and secondary plans and roles are where they shine or strengthen.

So, I suppose Genesis can help in this area, and I advocate his inclusion. I suppose I would take out a Cloudthresher (as said before) for 1 Genesis, going down to 1 Cloudthresher. (As scrumdogg says, Genesis provides a long game "trump" against control decks, which is something traditional combo doesn't really have access to.)

In Cloudthreshers, defense, I still think 6 mana is a fair price to pay for a 7/7 with Flash and Reach. It sometimes speeds up its clock to two swings since it deals 2 damage to the opponent when it comes into play, surprise-blocking an attacking creature (Tarmogoyf), etc. It never did / shouldn't kill Birds of Paradise (and they aren't needed anyway) until I began including 1x, and that can definitely be taken out. It appears in the list to present the idea that it is possible to run one as a survival target if you need something to chump block a SoFI equipped-Flyer from a Stompy deck, etc.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that that is one of the nice things about green creatures - neither of the Swords protect from green. :smile: This could randomly come in handy, but for the same reason, Shriekmaw hardcast sometimes hurts. Still, he gains you life when he CIP :wink:... Still, removal shouldn't be the end of you, or that's the goal of this discussion, anyway.

@scrumdogg
It is true that the opponent could cast removal on combo piece #2 in response to you playing piece #3, but:

You still always only lose one creature to a targetted kill spell.
The opponent in game 1 often has no idea what's going on, or doesn't know the combo.
If the opponent is leaving the mana open every turn for a kill spell, they are losing tempo, and you can certainly play around when they do/don't have the mana open for the kill spell. Play smart! :smile: Beat down if you don't think you can combo off. :wink:

Another idea for resilience was/is Aether Vial. This is a personal crutch-card, and I put it into a lot of my decks. I thought I was being strong-willed by resisting to put it in, thinking it wasn't the right card for the deck... but in the end, it's one of the most unfair cards in decks that have enough creatures for it, so, I will find room for it. I originally simply did not want to play any more non-creature spells (I was sideboarding Glowrider + Thorn of Amethyst at the time and overlooked the simple truth that it comes down before those cards anyway), but now I realize that the non-creature downside (it doesn't gain you 1*WardensInPlay when you play it) is more than made up for by the overall strength of it's... well, bustedness.

So, now the "ideal" opener looks like Turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 Warden, turn 3 Saffi + hardcast Retainers (or wait until next turn to Vial them).

Another reason I did not want to include it was because it is wiped out by Pernicious Deed, but, after playing about 10 games vs. Pernicious Deed decks (testing is no where near finished nor even started), I realize that the poor Elves were going to die as it was, and that having a Saffi in play helps a large amount vs. Pernicious Deed as it is...

Sadly, you will no longer be able to gain 25 life vs. combo. Keep this in mind. Now something may have to be done, as you will only be gaining about 22 life vs. storm combo, which doesn't put Tendrils out of range as easily. I suppose a 1x True Believer and a 1x Children of Korlis from the sideboard could be your trumps, but they are very slow compared to having small elves to accompany the wardens, which took up no extra space.

Finally, Aether Vial cannot be discarded to Survival if put into a dire situation... but I suppose it is - again - "only" 4x Creatures, to the point where it would not / won't make a difference, in the end / that many instances.

Is it still worth all the benefits of Aether Vial, with the downside of not being a creature in a deck that appreciates it so much?

If you are convinced that the aggro-route has no merit and that you want to go full on combo (I don't think that this is the correct way to go), then try including Orim's Chant mainboard, as I said, and 1x-2x Dosan, the Falling Leaf. I think that, in the end, I believe that it is sadly not meant to be a full-combo deck, otherwise it wouldn't use creatures to perform the combo - I would have used Storm, etc.

Another reason I didn't include Genesis at first was because he is yet another creature that is bad in a hand without Survival, which wasn't originally the main plan of the deck. I didn't want to rely on Survival, but I suppose that Genesis hardcast is still not the end of the world. But if we are playing cards that are almost dead without Survival, I'd almost rather play Reya Dawnbringer than Akroma... though I'll admit Genesis is dead less often enough that he is worth playing, especially due to the strength of his ability and the function he provides the deck with.

@C.P.

Living Wish seems like it would take too much mana to set up the combo with, and creates too many Wish-Board/Survival-Board rarely-used slots between the mainboard and sideboard, after a point. So, if you think cutting down Saffi and Retainers to 3x is worth running an extra 4 at the cost of :2: more, then please try it and see if it works out.

@lonely baritone & Cavius & others who have spoken kind words

Thank you for your interest. :smile: I am hoping that this can be a great starting point for the discussion, at the least.

@Cavius and Corrupted Angel

Is Wasteland right for the deck? I think Genesis would improve control more than 3-4x Wasteland could. In any case, I don't think Crop Rotation will help in this deck. It would be great to be able to search for Karakas or a Wasteland (if included), but the thing that worries me is Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void, which is actually when I would want Wasteland most: vs. a :2:-mana-land deck.

@ the Price of Loyal Retainers

I missed an auction for a Japanese one the other day on eBay. It went for $2.50 after shipping. :cry: Let's just say that I won't be able to make this deck in real life for a while now, because they are $20 each on BuyItNow, and $22 on average, so, even though its the only card I'm missing... it might be a while until I could take this to a real tournament.

Sims

01-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 04:26 PM

I wasn't exactly advocating anything for the deck, as I honestly haven't had an opportunity to test anything yet.

I was, however, questioning the concept of the Crop + Waste combo in the deck as it's disadvantage card wise for tempo loss with no substantial gain to your combo.

Right, I was addressing Cavius more, and put your name there to explain what dialogue I was referring to, I guess.

So yes, the thing I've always disliked about Crop Rotation is that it is always -1 Card Disadvantage, and can really get hurt by a counterspell (especially Daze).

Sometimes it is better to mind your own business if you are running out of cards/gas/whatever, not to spend your last few to poke a sleeping bear. :wink:

:tongue: Cavius, I still see the strength of Crop Rotation in certain decks, but I am pretty sure that this one may not have room for it, since it cannot take advantage of it.

C.P.

01-09-2008, 04:37 PM

@C.P.

Living Wish seems like it would take too much mana to set up the combo with, and creates too many Wish-Board/Survival-Board rarely-used slots between the mainboard and sideboard, after a point. So, if you think cutting down Saffi and Retainers to 3x is worth running an extra 4 at the cost of :2: more, then please try it and see if it works out.

It does not have to fetch combo pieces, and could just be ran like 2-of. The reason I'm suggesting this is that you run Janky legends just to have more versatility, and living wish might help you on that department without clugging the deck too much unlike Isao or Akroma.

The bottom line would be running 2 or so and just go get your SB bombs that you're already running to make your life better without survival. Also notice that you can get lands(Karakas, for example), which seems to be an important side plan of the deck.
I would not suggest making a Wishboard for the deck, nor running the wish as a 4-of. Run it as a 2-of card and since this card already has been built with Survival in mind. The sideboard already look like a wishboard if you ask me, so why not take advantage of that?

GreenOne

01-09-2008, 04:47 PM

I've played this card combo in decks than ran BoPs and Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves. The 3 for 1 card disadvantage is irrelevent. It's only really a two for one since your searching your deck for something that's in addition to what you have in play. Crop Rotation is also good with the entire deck since he's running Karakas, Pendelhavens and possibly Gaea's Cradle and Wasteland. I've tested Crop Rotation and Wasteland and having a tool box is really great. Whenever I searched for a Wasteland I never had regrets two for one'ing myself. This idea really excels at decks running low land counts and usually seals the game versus mana screws (believe me, this happens alot).

The land toolbox + Crop rotation is an awful idea. What are you going to do when you don't need your Wasteland? You 2for1 yourself to get a karakas? It has not sinergy with the deck and takes some slots that could be devoted to creatures (remember that deck plays survival) or cards that gain combo pieces. I can't see Crop Rotation any better than, say, Eladamri's call or Tarmogoyf or even Wall of Roots.
If you tested a GW deck that performed well with a crop rotation toolbox that doesn't mean people have to play crop rotation in every GW deck they build. Following your reasoning every red deck would have Goblin Lackey in it.

However, this is by far the best deck posted on CanG till now. It's creative, sinergystic (sp?), uses loads of dismissed cards and, last but not least, it's combo (well, sort of).

The slots I don't like are Isao and Iwamori. I'd definetly play Genesis or Kodama of the North Tree in Iwamori's place.
What's the type of creature of Retainers? I doubt it's still advisor. If they are Humans a single Engineered Plague could cripple Both the combo and your survival solution (Mangara). In that case, I'd play something like Harmonic Sliver 1x in side.

Jaynel

01-09-2008, 04:51 PM

I'd also recommend Harmonic Sliver (even maindeck) as a great answer to randomness.

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 07:26 PM

@GreenOne

Thank you for your kind words - and with discussion, the deck/strategy can only get better.

Agreed, Crop Rotation is worse than Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial, and it's not a creature. (We don't need to tutor lands in this deck, anyway. Wasteland seems out of place at best.)

You are the first person to notice how many humans there are in the deck. Opponents will often overlook this (nobody else has noticed it yet) because it is not printed on these cards:

Loyal Retainers
Asmira, Holy Avenger
Soul Warden
Glowrider

Sadly, these cards:

Saffi Eriksdotter
Eternal Witness
Mangara of Corondor
Isao, Enlightened Bushi

Tivadar of Thorn
Dosan the Falling Leaf
do have Human printed on them.

Yet the opponent may not even notice it in game because their art doesn't immediately make it apparent, and, as a result, may not bring in Engineered Plague, even if they have it. While sideboarding, people don't have the creatures in front of them, and often won't ask the judge for creature types, may not notice a pattern, etc. They might even name the wrong thing: elves.

(:laugh: We should play Shared Triumph (http://magiccards.info/on/en/53.html) and Cover of Darkness (http://magiccards.info/on/en/133.html)! and apprehend Plague at the source! haha :tongue:)

Still, I understand that Plague must be addressed, and it's one of the reasons I ran 4x Krosan Grip immediately. I am glad we are discussing this, however, and Harmonic Sliver will be brought back from rejection city.

@Jaynel

I think that Harmonic Sliver can definitely handle this job, but it has the drawback of being crappy without Survival. Still, it will eat up Plagues.

Lastly, C.P. is probably right about the 2x Living Wish, but it takes up a bit of room in the sideboard to play an extra Loaming Shaman (not the end of the world). Game 2, you might want to sideboard out the Living Wish for the actual creatures you'd be wishing for if you will be able to get a Survival going vs. the opponent, depending on what they're playing.

What do other people think about playing 2x Living Wish? And why does everybody hate Isao so much? :laugh:

I will update the decklist according to Genesis.

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 07:53 PM

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 08:00 PM

I find that remarkable. You made "Humans" a playable archetype.

On another note, have you considered Autumn Willow? Or is this card bad without trample? And yes, you can play G so that you can bounce Autumn Willow with Karakas, if need be. :wink: This makes it virtually unkillable. It might be something to consider.

:laugh: Who knew Autumn Willow could almost be good? :cool: Sadly, she is about :2: too expensive, as with most of Kamigawa's Arcane/Spiritcraft/Legendary cards.

So, does that mean that you think that we should almost play 4x Sideboard Shared Triumph (http://magiccards.info/on/en/53.html) and get in sam beitz? :tongue: hahaha I don't think it would be that strong, though.

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 08:32 PM

:laugh: Who knew Autumn Willow could almost be good? :cool: Sadly, she is about :2: too expensive, as with most of Kamigawa's Arcane/Spiritcraft/Legendary cards.

So, does that mean that you think that we should almost play 4x Sideboard Shared Triumph (http://magiccards.info/on/en/53.html) and get in sam beitz? :tongue: hahaha I don't think it would be that strong, though.

Can't you survival an Autumn Willow and cheat it into play? I'm not sure why you're so concerned about the mana cost.

GreenOne

01-09-2008, 08:38 PM

Plague is not that great problem if you run 4 Krosan Grip + 1 Sliver. That's a total of 9 cards to draw to deal with enchantments. Note that many decks playing Plague are playing Confidant too, and he's a human. Drawback for the win!

Nihil Credo

01-09-2008, 08:53 PM

I'm not sure how serious Cavius' suggestion was, but anyway Kodama of the North Tree > Autumn Willow. +2 power, -1 mana, Trample, the only drawback being it can't be Karakas'ed.

Isamaru

01-09-2008, 09:05 PM

I'm not sure how serious Cavius' suggestion was, but anyway Kodama of the North Tree > Autumn Willow. +2 power, -1 mana, Trample, the only drawback being it can't be Karakas'ed.

I rejected him early on thinking he would never live past an opposing Tarmogoyf. :frown: He'd be nice against control, but Deed for 5 is easy to do moreso than a Deed for 6.

Is he still a threat worth running? I'll admit I get 5 mana way more often than I can get up 6 mana, naturally. So, if I switched the deck to include 2-3x Kodama of the North Tree, devoting a bit of the aggro stategy to concentrating on a single plan consistently, is that worth the drawback of dying somewhat often to Tarmogoyf?

Plague is not that great problem if you run 4 Krosan Grip + 1 Sliver. That's a total of 9 cards to draw to deal with enchantments. Note that many decks playing Plague are playing Confidant too, and he's a human. Drawback for the win!

Hooray! :cool:

Isamaru

01-10-2008, 12:30 AM

MWS Screenshots are now posted!

As expected, the strengths of Aether Vial (like always, eh?) overshadow the disadvantage of not being a creature. :smile:

In every game I draw Survival, I don't really ever feel like finding Genesis. If you have Survival vs. control in the first place, you should have already won. Still, I see that Genesis could be a powerful target in the right matchup. So, at worst, sideboard?

Isao is stronger than he looks. He is more of a blocker (especially for equipped creatures that can't fly), or an "unblockable" 2 damage that can't be countered, etc.

I had the opportunity to play vs. a suicide-style black deck, Mint Green, tonight. He was able to kill Red Akroma with Snuff Out, but I Loyal Retainers'd her 2 times. Gaddock Teeg stopping Snuff Out meant he often had to Thoughtseize Gaddock, a threat.

He kindly also played DragonStompy, and I was able to win two out of the three "g1"s, losing the first by one turn. (See the screenshots) Obviously 3 games don't mean everything, but they show that the mana base was able to handle a DragonStompy assault.

Aether Vial and Survival and playing 31 creatures really hurts discard's effectiveness. The deck is able to survive quite a bit of disruption now, and I don't even speak of disruption to the combo when I say this. I mean as an aggro deck in general.

So, it's a combo deck that is never all-in. It's a combo deck that can play an aggro deck. Storm combo and Dreadnought combo both take a risk in exposing themselves to disruption at times, but you never have to perform the combo unless you are about to run out of life, etc.

scrumdogg

01-10-2008, 02:57 AM

- have You thought about Caller of the Claw (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=42187) instead of Asmira? It is far more easier to cast and yet it protects against mass removal.
- what about 1-2 Auriok Champion (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=72921) for redundancy, better R/x MU and protection against Extirpate?

Good job anyhow...

Caller seems like a decent thought, although it dies to EE type effects as easily as Asmira dies to STP/Shriekmaw effects (although it is Ghastly Demise proof) :cool: Quite frankly, if you have leventy-bajillion life & Genesis, you can kill your opponent with anything.... My objections to Cloudthresher are not his stats & abilities (except that you can't effectively run BoPs, which are one of the best mana weasels ever, especially for SotF decks) but his cost. At best, in deck incarnations shown, you have had 19 land & 7 mana weasels....that does not add up to 6 mana very often. That is all I'm saying. However, how many times have you been plagued by decks running lots of X/2 fliers anyway? It seems an odd effect to be striving for? Isao is cute...and legendary...and creative...and significantly worse in almost every way than Tarmogoyf. That is the standard that any deck capable of throwing down :g: now has, what does this <unknown potential addition> do that makes it better/more valuable than Tarmogoyf? Isao, Cloudthresher, and probably Loaming Shaman don't cut it for me with Goyf still available for duty in this deck. Heck, on the Loaming Shaman, it is too slow to deal with decks like Ichorid & would be better as Stonecloaker against decks like Landstill. I want their permanents removed, not shuffled back in with all their removal & permission & card draw.

I love Bikini Chick as a card, but it would slow this deck down without much real advantage I bet. I'm also not seeing how it protects against Extirpate since the pro-black doesn't function when it is a card in the graveyard, only when it is a creature in play. In terms of redundancy, there already exists a split between Essence & Soul Warden (and Survival to whomp up the appropriate one).

Isamaru

01-10-2008, 12:10 PM

If the opponent extirpates both Wardens, You may still fetch 1 Auriok Champion via SotF.
This is what I call pro:Extirpate.
Extirpate on Wardens hurts this deck a lot, esp. if You do not use Living Wish. Chances to draw into 2 Extirpates are high enough. Chances to draw into 3 of them... and with no Auriok in GY... Clear?
But I do not think, that Auriok is really needed. Just suggestion...

I disagree with this. Extirpating a Warden doesn't matter - even if they draw two. One may even still be in play, and still - if they spent the time to extirpate both, then you should have won by then via aggro.

Unlike MossNought, this deck doesn't care if it can't combo - you can often just win, instead, if you can't combo with little effort. MossNought can do this with SB Tarmogoyfs, but this deck should already be able to do it, and can even play Tarmogoyfs mainboard that are currently in the sideboard.

Tarmogoyf in the sideboard is actually a decent card vs. some of the problems this deck has because it slow-rolls your threats, etc.

@sasa_batora

Caller of the Claw is a very good suggestion, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I think Asmira will be better because she is legendary (she costs G or less during the combo because of Retainers, while Caller always costs 2G - and she can be a powerful blocker / aggro creature because of Karakas), but Caller of the Claw is a nice idea vs. Pernicious Deed.

Basically, I am looking to replace Cloudthresher, and I suppose either Caller of the Claw (or Kodama of the North Tree, or another aggro card) could do this. First I wanted it to be clear that Cloudthresher has a lot of synergy with the deck, but I see that sometimes 6 mana (or 4 mana and a Saffi) isn't worth running Elves over Aether Vial to do so. Yet this somewhat implies that Genesis would not be good for the deck either, except in the sideboard.

@scrumdogg

You are right that Caller Tokens and Asmira give the opponent one turn to find an answer... but after that, you still have trillions of life and plenty of other win conditions in the deck.

Loaming Shaman is better than Stonecloaker because he is in the deck as a win condition. If you have infinite life, a Loaming Shaman will win the game, but it is still useful in many other situations. Stonecloaker doesn't replace Loaming Shaman, but it could be the replacement aggro creature we've been looking for for Cloudthresher's slot.

In fact, it replaces Cloudthresher quite well. The only part I'll miss is the quick clock he provided, but at 6 mana...

My objections to Cloudthresher are not his stats & abilities (except that you can't effectively run BoPs, which are one of the best mana weasels ever, especially for SotF decks) but his cost. At best, in deck incarnations shown, you have had 19 land & 7 mana weasels....that does not add up to 6 mana very often. That is all I'm saying. However, how many times have you been plagued by decks running lots of X/2 fliers anyway?
Yes - the game would be in late stages in which there would be enough blockers on the opponent's side of the field that he took 3 turns to attack, giving the opportunity to be removed, etc. Again, he is a good card, and works in this deck, but we've seen that he may not be the best choice yet, and I am glad :smile:

Isao is cute...and legendary...and creative...and significantly worse in almost every way than Tarmogoyf. That is the standard that any deck capable of throwing down now has, what does this <unknown potential addition> do that makes it better/more valuable than Tarmogoyf?Isao is better vs. threshold than Tarmogoyf in that he cannot be countered, especially by Counterbalance, and even Spell Snare... yet you are right in that those facts do not make up for the fact that he doesn't have the "oops I win" quality of Tarmogoyf.

And my original thought - him being in the deck to block Tarmogoyfs and Mongeese and trump every one of those threshold creatures, Dryad, etc., even through burn - this thought doesn't stand up to the fact that, well, Goyf blocks Goyf. :rolleyes:

So, Tarmogoyf can either stay in the sideboard like he is, or it can be swapped with the 3 Gaddock Teeg and 1 Isao from the mainboard. (The Cloudthreshers are now Stonecloaker, as discussed.)

Our latest list, then looks like this:
3 Teeg, 1 Isao <-SWAP WITH-> 4 Tarmogoyf

// Lands (19)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Plains
4 Savannah

1 Pendelhaven
2 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (31)

The Mana (3) 1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (14)
4 Essence Warden
2 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (8)
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Asmira, Holy Avenger
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

The Utility (4)
2 Stonecloaker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (12)

4 Aether Vial

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis (or the 4th Gaddock Teeg)
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Tivadar of Thorn

Should I go to 18 land for 4 Birds of Paradise, or is a 1/1/1 split of mana dorks fine? (keeping in mind that the elves attack in exchange for being "worse")

Giles

01-11-2008, 01:56 AM

Wispmare. Add it. Trust me.

Eaiser to cast.
Leyline of the Void destuction.
Gains life.
Beats.

Any Questions?

georgjorge

01-11-2008, 06:40 AM

Just from overlooking the deck, what I'm missing is disruption, and card advantage/filtering (besides Survival). Since I guess a black splash for discard and Confidant (and Doran) is out of the question, I'd suggest the following (no cool interactions :confused: but some solid support stuff):

Sylvan Library: I know you stated you tried Top before and cut it, but I've been sooo happy with it in every deck that lacks direct card draw. Maybe a second chance...? Library is probably even better, as a) your deck needs more help against control, where Library shines b) you play lifegain, so you can probably use it more often than other decks could
Jitte: This is the perfect deck for it, as you have lots of small creatures which aren't exactly superheroes in combat. You can use unneeded Elves, Wardens, Saffis, Retainers etc to actually do something useful, i.e. destroy your opponents board.
Compost and Choke (sideboard): Those cards are just so very good. I'm not sure how big your problems are against black discard and removal, or against blue decks, but at least one of those would probably benefit you much.

What I'd cut for them is probably some Swords from the maindeck (lifegain should give you some more time to get rid of threats), and some Grips (four is too much) and Genesis from the board. I'm also not sure if swapping the Gaddocks out is the right move, as they a) win you the otherwise unwinnable combo matchup b) demand a Force from your blue-playing opponent, which would otherwise easily stop your combo. The deck seems pretty tight as is, though...

Another, more janky-looking suggestion, would be Second Sunrise. It acts as complete protection against board sweepers, and can be fun with Witness, Saffi, Retainers etc. Probably too narrow though...?

Isamaru

01-11-2008, 12:59 PM

Cloudthresher out, Caller in, Genesis SB.
Definitely :smile: The trick is fitting in Caller of the Claw, Stonecloaker and then deciding between the other options.

Aether Vial or Mana Creatures?
MB Tarmogoyf or MB Gaddock Teeg + Isao?
How many Caller of the Claw?
How many Stonecloaker?

Once we figure the answer to those questions out, we will be in good shape. :smile: Does anyone have a say on those problems?

Just from overlooking the deck, what I'm missing is disruption, and card advantage/filtering (besides Survival). Since I guess a black splash for discard and Confidant (and Doran) is out of the question, I'd suggest the following (no cool interactions :confused: but some solid support stuff):

Sylvan Library: I know you stated you tried Top before and cut it, but I've been sooo happy with it in every deck that lacks direct card draw. Maybe a second chance...? Library is probably even better, as a) your deck needs more help against control, where Library shines b) you play lifegain, so you can probably use it more often than other decks could
Very good idea! I like Sylvan Library a lot better than Harmonize by far, and I think it is a lot less mana intensive than Sensei's Divining Top. Without Aether Vial, I'll play Sylvan Library surely, but with Aether Vial, the instant speed might be relavent at hurting discard tremendously. (An example is against Cephalid Breakfast when they have many Cabal Therapy for destroying your hand, but you could store a Stonecloaker on the Top to Vial out in response to the Dread Return :tongue:)

In any case, we'll also need to find some room for that.

Jitte: This is the perfect deck for it, as you have lots of small creatures which aren't exactly superheroes in combat. You can use unneeded Elves, Wardens, Saffis, Retainers etc to actually do something useful, i.e. destroy your opponents board.
Jitte has always been quite mana intensive, and Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose seem to have obsoleted the Jitte. Is it still as strong as it used to be? If so, I think that you are definitely right that it can help the aggro plan a lot.

Compost and Choke (sideboard): Those cards are just so very good. I'm not sure how big your problems are against black discard and removal, or against blue decks, but at least one of those would probably benefit you much.Thank you for reminding me about Choke! The Landstill matchup was atrocious, and these are great in our blue-heavy format. Thank you! (I am not sure on Compost yet, I believe that this deck can empty its hand fast enough or wont fear a black deck because it has a lot of small creatures, but we'll have to see if it is needed. Either way, I'm glad you brought it up.)

What I'd cut for them is probably some Swords from the maindeck (lifegain should give you some more time to get rid of threats), and some Grips (four is too much) and Genesis from the board. I'm also not sure if swapping the Gaddocks out is the right move, as they a) win you the otherwise unwinnable combo matchup b) demand a Force from your blue-playing opponent, which would otherwise easily stop your combo. The deck seems pretty tight as is, though...Very good idea. I will try out some equipment in place of the Swords to Plowshares for sure. You also identified the cards that I don't think are doing enough in the sideboard as well.

Another, more janky-looking suggestion, would be Second Sunrise. It acts as complete protection against board sweepers, and can be fun with Witness, Saffi, Retainers etc. Probably too narrow though...?That card interacts well with the deck, for sure. The double white might be hard to get, however, and Caller of the Claw beats it because of serving a double purpose.

Thank you all again for your suggestions and help. I sometimes overlook things myself, or don't put two and two together. Some of you have a lot of experience with green and white in this format, while I am more used to black and blue.

By the power of our deckbuilding combined...

3 Teeg, 1 Isao <-SWAP WITH-> 4 Tarmogoyf

// Lands (19)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Plains
4 Savannah

1 Pendelhaven
2 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (35)

The Mana (7) 4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (14)
4 Essence Warden
2 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (7)
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

The Utility (5)
1 Stonecloaker
2 Caller of the Claw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare (or Harmonic Sliver)
3 Orim's Chant
3 Choke
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tivadar of Thorn (or 4th Chant)

I don't know if Stonecloaker is needed anymore. I am not sure if I am using the best equipment split/proportions.
I wasn't able to fit Sylvan Library / Sensei's Divining Top in this list. Is using 3 Survival of the Fittest (+1 Divining Top or Eladamri's Call) wrong, even in a deck that doesn't need to draw/resolve it to win?
I like the sideboard a lot. :smile:

It'd be nice to have an answer to Cephalid Breakfast other than the combo itself... but we don't get to play Yixlid Jailer unless we splash black.

The Black splash gives Mesmeric Fiend (probably bad) or Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, strengthening our combo or control, but weakening Dragon Stompy, etc. For now, I don't think it's worth killing the manabase for, but I think Dark Confidant could be quite nice.

For discussion's sake, what do you think of a black splash variation:

// Lands (19)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Karakas

// Creatures (35)

The Mana (7) 3 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (14)
4 Essence Warden
2 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (3)
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (8)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Caller of the Claw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (9)

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip / Vindicate
1 Wispmare
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Choke

The splash seems a lot weaker, and Doran doesn't come in because he is worse than Iwamori for us.

Isamaru

01-12-2008, 02:26 AM

So, Stonecloaker turned out to be a little bit too weak as an aggro creature, and a little too weak as a graveyard hoser. He tries to do both at once.

He might have a place yet, but I think Caller of the Claw is more important, and even she(?) is vying for important space.

Adding too many non-legends hurt the deck too much. It made Loyal Retainers turn into a really bad creature (which he normally definitely is).

Therefore, I have returned to some of the original choices, but with what I've learned through our discussions and by a bit of testing taken into consideration.

I think my worst mistake in the recent lists was accidentally trying to have answers to both aggro/combo/control at the same time. Instead, I think we should concentrate on beating aggro gauranteed, and sideboarding to be able to beat the other two. That was the original point of the deck, and I got sidetracked. :frown:

Ignoring the recent distractions, what do you think of this instead?

// Lands (19)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Plains
4 Savannah

1 Pendelhaven
2 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (33)

The Mana (7) 4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (4)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Asmira, Holy Avenger
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

The Utility (9)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Genesis

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Orim's Chant OR Choke OR Winter Orb

3 Glowrider
3 Gaddock Teeg

Notice the 3x Eternal Witness. When in non-combo mode, they act as 3 additional copies of whatever has been "your best card this game." :smile: This deck will finally be able to actually cast Silvos by being able to have 3 extra fetchlands via Witnesses. My favorite play is still double blocking with her and Saffi to double-team an attacker and then save each other. So flavorful :smile:

This deck's aggro plan game one is much better, as well as its matchup vs. aggro itself. By being able to go aggro if necessary, it should at least give you a chance of beating non-aggro g1. Then you can improve after sideboarding.

Creatures to consider:
Masked Admirers
Tolsimir Wolfblood
Hokori, Dust Drinker

Isamaru

01-13-2008, 01:37 AM

Thanks to the suggestions of those who moved for its inclusion, Genesis is now the main "fattie" of choice because he costs 5 instead of 6. This is pivotal: Cloudthresher and Silvos, Rogue Elemental costed 6, and were taken out as a result. For some reason, the deck can get to 5 mana in the early game, but it takes all the way until late game to get to 6 mana, and by then it is too late. And, above all, Genesis was chosen for the obvious strength vs. control and with Survival and Eternal Witness, Loyal Retainers, Saffi, and so on.

My favorite card that outdoes the opponent is Eternal Witness. Now at 3x, she is no longer a tutor-target, but an amazing team player. :wink: She's already proven herself time and time again in this format, but I'd like to simply confirm that, yes, she is wonderfully helpful to her color. She ended up being one of the best "aggro" creatures for us...

I was at first reluctant to cave in and add Tarmogoyf, but in this deck (unlike some others that use him just because they've seen him big), he actually plays a role, even somewhat different than he usually does in combo decks. Normally, in combo decks, Tarmogoyf is an alternate plan for when you can't combo. Tarmogoyf's true strength is not that he is "lul undercoztid alt winz"... instead, he is in this deck because he allows you to defend properly, giving you time to recover. Most importantly, he allows you to win through Sinkhole+Negator+Wasteland, or FoW+Daze+Stifle+StP. I don't consider it an alternate win condition, but, rather, it buys time, at the least to properly stabalize.

If you haven't had time to do so yet, please take a look at the screenshots. :smile: It is nice to have a visual image of successfully baiting out a Daze (http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Isamaru333/I%20Will%20Survive/?action=view&current=UGWBThreshold2.jpg), then a Stifle (http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Isamaru333/I%20Will%20Survive/?action=view&current=UGWBThreshold3.jpg) from a Threshold opponent, then proceeeding to win (http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Isamaru333/I%20Will%20Survive/?action=view&current=UGWBThreshold4.jpg).

Hightower

01-13-2008, 06:15 PM

This deck looks really interesting! - Except for your choice of name for the deck, I kinda like it.

- seems like a big contender along with Mossnought

Shabbaman

01-14-2008, 08:34 AM

If you run mana elves you could run a Eladamri, lord of leaves. It gives your elves shroud and forestwalk. Then a budget version could run Wren run vanquisher instead of Goyf (works nice with vial, but if you run mana elves you don't run vial I guess).

Puzzle

01-14-2008, 03:58 PM

I wanted to say how great I find this deck, so I looked for ideas for improvement, to justify a post. And I came horribly short : you've managed the impossible by making me short of comments. It seems like you've really spent time on this one.

I guess you've considered Phyrexian Processor and rejected it because it doesn't come back via your combo dudes, right ?
Same for Test of Endurance, I guess : doesn't work in aggro mode, right ?

Anyway, congrats on a great idea, extensive work and good realization.

Giles

01-14-2008, 06:20 PM

he costs 5 instead of 6.

Kodama of the North Tree.
Impossible to Remove.
Legendary.
Cost 5 Mana.
And is a fucking house.

Need I say any more?

Isamaru

01-15-2008, 01:18 AM

This deck looks really interesting! - Except for your choice of name for the deck, I kinda like it - seems like a big contender along with Mossnought
Thanks for the kind words, Hightower. :smile: And, yes, good luck to everyone in the contest.

I wanted to say how great I find this deck, so I looked for ideas for improvement, to justify a post. And I came horribly short : you've managed the impossible by making me short of comments. It seems like you've really spent time on this one.

I guess you've considered Phyrexian Processor and rejected it because it doesn't come back via your combo dudes, right ?
Same for Test of Endurance, I guess : doesn't work in aggro mode, right ?

Anyway, congrats on a great idea, extensive work and good realization.
Thank you, Puzzle. It means a lot coming from someone who has been dedicated to this format as long as you. :smile:

Processor and Endurance do the same thing as Asmira, and she is already on the endangered list as far as cutting cards go. :eek: She was almost tailored for this combo (finishing the combo and then trading one of your creatures for a 99998/99999 costs only :g: with Survival) and she is the least dead win condition in general: she's a creature at worst, sometimes a 4/5 Flyer even without combo-ing, and she can be an okay blocker with Karakas.

Kodama of the North Tree.
I tried him out today and he failed time after time... poor guy got obsoleted by Goyf's format. The Shroud is actually sometimes a drawback because you can't save him with Saffi.

If you run mana elves you could run a Eladamri, lord of leaves. It gives your elves shroud and forestwalk. Then a budget version could run Wren run vanquisher instead of Goyf...
Just like with Kodama, Shroud actually stinks in this deck.

Speaking of small Elvish Legends, however, I decided to include Rofellos (ROFLLULZ) because of the Karakas interaction and because I find myself short on mana when I have Survival out sometimes. (Not in trouble, but it ends up taking me 2 turns to do what I could do in 1 turn.)

Vanquisher is an idea, but I don't think the deck would have enough Elves to support it, at times, and it is just another version of Tarmogoyf, which I just took [Tarmogoyf] out of my personal version. (By that, I mean you can easily clear room to play them if you were to pick up the deck.) He is much worse than Gaddock Teeg for what the deck wants to do. Tarmogoyf simply never breaks through. A 2/2 with blink and cc-hosing is more threatening than a 3/4 or a 4/5 vanilla creature.

I am now just trying to decide if a good sideboard card (Yixlid Jailer) is worth the small nonbasic splash's risks. I have definitely decided on my favorite mainboard configuration, and Glowrider is absolutely wonderful in this deck. (I once have even gotten all 4 out on the table via Survival.)

So, here is the most updated list, with a very small Black splash for Yixlid Jailer.

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Pendelhaven
2 Karakas

// Creatures (32)
The Mana (6)
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (9)
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Asmira, Holy Avenger
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (5)
3 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Genesis

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Glowrider
4 Yixlid Jailer

2 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
1 Gaddock Teeg

I've had people on MWS tell me that the Wardens are weak, etc... until they lose because I stayed at 20+ the entire game. If they are good in any deck, it is this one. 32+ of your own creatures and your opponents add up to a LOT of life, especially when they keep coming in and out of play (Saffi, Witness, Retainers, Genesis)... and that's if one is out on the table.

Anyway, the deck has improved some of its matchups with the current sideboard, so I will be updating those tomorrow. Stay tuned, and thank you everyone for your advice so far! :smile:

georgjorge

01-15-2008, 10:43 AM

Isamaru

01-15-2008, 11:53 AM

Hmm....the deck looks good to me. BUT if you already splash black (even a little), which I think is the RIGHT thing to do, you now have no excuse left NOT to run 4 Confidant :wink: . Trust me on this ! I'd do -1 Witness -2 Swords -1 Genesis or something like that. Confidant is sure to draw removal from your opponent when played second or third turn, which will go a long way towards allowing you to combo.

I know you wanted to keep it a VERY small splash, but from what I see, your manabase can support three colors very well (especially when you up the birds), and if some cards fit in the deck so well...Matchup-wise, I am not sure if the Dark Confidants improve anything. They weaken the Dragon Stompy, generic aggro, and (somewhat) Goblins match in exchange for slightly improving the Threshold and Board Control matches... and he's another Human! :laugh: (what the heck!)

Still, if we are going to test 3-4x Dark Confidant (I think 3x is enough because they are in our splash color, and because multiples suck in this deck, even though they are great in most other decks), then I would agree with the things you suggested to clear the room... maybe -1 Genesis, -1 Witness, -1 Isao....? Or maybe just -4 Swords to Plowshares, +4 Dark Confidant:

Another question: Do you really need four Swords in the maindeck? The deck definitely doesn't look like it can be rushed by Aggro easily, with the Wardens and the many creatures, so it would seem you would REALLY NEED the swords only for utility creatures (I can only think of Confidant right now) and the first turn Lackey (backed up by second turn removal). Anything else?I definitely agree with you here, and it is the main reason I am willing to try out Dark Confidant. I was using Swords to Plowshares as removal for utility creatures only, and the only creatures it was helpful against were the creatures from Stompy decks (Dragon, Faerie, Angel, Demon) because you could gain a lot of tempo from Equip-costs after they payed them and/or attacked.

Therapy should probably also be in the sideboard somewhere, as one Therapy allows you to take both the Force AND the Stifle from your opponent !I don't ever feel like going out of my way (except by baiting) to rid the opponent of Stifle or Force of Will: between Fetchlands, Witness, Karakas, etc., they will have wasted their Stifle... it also requires mana to be open all game while you are attacking them instead. Force of Will costs them so many cards that it doesn't bother me. Because we don't invest more than one spell on the stack at a time like MossNought, we only lose one card to their two, and Witness brings it back if necessary. :smile:

For the sake of discussion, if you remove 1 Yixlid Jailer the 4th Gaddock Teeg and the somewhat-random 2 extra Isao from the sideboard for the Cabal Therapy, you end up with this:

// Sideboard (15)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare
4 Glowrider
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Cabal Therapy

I think, though, that the Cabal Therapy are somewhat unneeded, and that 4 Glowrider 4 Gaddock Teeg are strong enough vs. combo to where Therapy would be just as "slow" (turn 2) because of so few black sources - only one out at a time, most likely. It does, however, improve the Landstill/BoardControl matchups because you can now WitnessTherapy to destroy their hand, but it doesn't work any better vs. combo than the 4 Teeg 4 Glowrider, because it takes until turn 2 to use also.

More sideboard options...Thorn of Amethyst instead of Glowrider? Coming down for one mana less can be crucial, but I guess with the Elves it doesn't matter that much.Right, Glowrider usually comes down turn 2, and is simply amazing vs. Enchantress (and many other decks) at the same time that it is helping you wonderfully against storm combo. If you don't have a mana elf turn 1, then Gaddock Teeg comes down instead (you are playing 4 of each postboard) on turn 2. You won't have an answer until turn 2, but most decks without Force of Will don't anyway, and storm decks don't go off turn 1 every game.

Thorn of Amethyst's biggest problem is that each one costs more than the last, unlike Glowrider. In this deck, not being a creature is an argument against a card in itself, but overall I think that Glowrider is more helpful anyway. Who knows if being able to tutor for extra Glowmethysts might come up sometime.

What's your experience with Genesis so far? Does it come down often, and have any relevant role to play when it does?He doesn't come down often and has not played a large part in a game so far. Although he was wonderful to have while testing vs. Landstill, he was not able to turn the game (most likely because Vedalken Shackles were in play). Therefore, he may as well be a sideboard card next to the Krosan Grips, at this point. In any case, if we are to try 3-4x Confidant, Genesis will be one of the things removed.

EDIT: I just took a look at the screenshots. The deck really seems like fun to play :wink: Thank you, I hope you enjoy playing it as much as I do if you get a chance to do so. :smile: Thank you also for your suggestions and advice.

The thing to be most understood about this deck is that the combo doesn't really matter because, for once, the pieces are [finally] quite strong on their own, separate from each other. :smile:

Eldariel

01-15-2008, 01:37 PM

Heh, this almost seems like a deck where Reki, the History of Kamigawa were playable. Not quite, but when it comes to janky Legends, I guess it bears mentioning too, especially if you get Karakas going on; then again, if you do, you probably win.

I find the deck to be very intriguing, although your percentages against Goblins seem a bit optimistic; after all, it's no great difficulty for them to kill your Wardens with Fanatics and Incins, and it seems like they'd just eventually get through - also, Lackey seems to connect most of the time on the play since they have 8+ removal-spells for any of your blockers so only StP is really a foolproof answer. I mean, I saw the game you linked, but it looked like he really used his Matrons in a subpar manner and overall just didn't play tight enough to win. That's without even accounting for builds running Goblin Sharpshooter. Also, between only 20 lands (10 non-basics, 5 basics) total and 6 mana critters, it seems like shutting you down entirely manawise wouldn't be impossible at all. On the same token, I'd be vary about the Lands-MU; the deck is an expert at ripping manabases apart and yours seems particularly fragile.

Have you found Teegs to be enough against Storm-combo and Belcher? It seems like Belcher going off turn 1 even on the draw would be a huge issue.

Isamaru

01-15-2008, 02:02 PM

Hey, Eldariel :smile:

The matchups are currently messed up because of the recent changes. Still, I'd like to be more optimistic than you, at least about Belcher. :tongue: If Belcher goes off turn 1 in two games, they deserve to win. Even then, take the game loss and win your other games to still Top 8. :smile: (The issue you brought up would also beat almost every deck without Force of Will.)

With Goblins, would you be willing to test in person? I think that this matchup is pretty good because this is one of the few decks with as many creatures as Goblins, and the Wardens are absolutely crazy as a result. I'd hope that Swords to Plowshares could stop Sharpshooter, but I haven't seen decklists playing that MB because it only improves matchups they already win. (RB Goblins is most likely what will now be played, because some of the black goblins are so large that they can even run over even a Plague.)

Since the matchups are currently not right, and the last few were based on speculation to begin with, I wasn't sure how this deck would do vs. 43land... I'd like to believe that I can get enough of the pieces down before my mana base is ripped apart to where I can summon the last one off the remaining basic lands (usually 2 are out) and the mana creatures (which can be fetched if you are running low on land and have Survival out).

But would you like to play a few games with me if you have some time? :smile:

EDIT: sasa_batora, you might be right: 1x Dark Confidant might be more useful than commiting to him or Genesis, even. I am not sure yet.

Which is better: Wall of Roots or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?

Eldariel

01-15-2008, 02:47 PM

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow

01-15-2008, 03:34 PM

Which is better: Wall of Roots or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?

Rofellos is more explosive if you get to untap with him. Wall of Roots can provide you with mana on your turn and your opponent's. I guess it all depends on what your deck needs more.

If Engineered Plague is present in your meta, then Rofellos is just one more elf to get hosed (Rofellos, 6 mana elves, E. Warden). Double plague on elves and humans sucks hard so I'm glad you have plenty echantment hate in the board.

raharu

01-17-2008, 04:51 AM

Splash red. Saffi + Mogg Fanitic/ Frostling is infinite dammage, turn two if you need to push it out.

Sanguine Voyeur

01-17-2008, 06:08 AM

Splash red. Saffi + Mogg Fanitic/ Frostling is infinite dammage, turn two if you need to push it out.How do you figure? You play Fanatic, you play Saffi, you sacrifice Saffi targeting Fanatic, you ping something with Fanatic, and Fanatic comes back. Best you can get is a Shock.

raharu

01-17-2008, 06:28 AM

Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter: When target creature is put into your graveyard from play this turn, return that card to play.

It's until the end of the turn, I do believe.

Sanguine Voyeur

01-17-2008, 06:41 AM

I see the misconception; when Mogg Fanatic returns, it's a "different" Mogg Fanatic. When ever a card changes zones, it becomes a "different" instance of that card. For example, if you activate Patron of the Orochi, sacrifice it, then Goryo's Vengance it, you can use the ability again.

pooispoois

01-18-2008, 02:14 PM

It's great to see you back in full force. Seeing this deck and thread makes me sad I don't have much time to play Magic anymore. I don't have any specific advice for now (but I'll keep my eyes open), so I'll just congratulate you on a great work.

scrumdogg

01-18-2008, 03:29 PM

Sure, I'll play a few games with you. Unless specifically asked though, I won't be MDing Sharpshooter since while it's a great card, it seems unnecessary in the meta and thus I'd probably play rather not test it as it'd distort the results. Still, it is occasionally played and those builds could be a big issue. Mayhap it would be easiest if we used some instant messaging medium to talk the details.

As for Rofellos vs. Wall of Roots, it's obviously a question of the match-up, but as a singleton I'd pick Rofellos since it's more powerful when it kicks into action and it's a Legend. If I had 4, Wall of Roots could be better if aggro is an issue. Beyond that, I'd play Rofellos in most sitiuations.

Much as I hate to admit it, maybe a 1-of Auriok Champion sandwiched among the Wardens would be OK, but only if Vial was present as WW is not what you expect to see early in a smoothly functioning SotF deck. On the Rofellos vs Wall of Roots debate, every time I play Rofellos in SotF he is a removal magnet...which bodes well for your other utility weasels, especially if you can bait an STP out of the opponent. If you had 4 slots, however, wouldn't a 3/1 Wall/Rofellos mix be appropriate? It gives you the best of both worlds it seems.

Isamaru

01-27-2008, 03:08 PM

:smile: After a week of testing, I've got the proportions and numbers down:

// Lands (21)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
1 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

// Creatures (31)
The Mana (5)
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (4/10)
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (9)
4 Glowrider
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Yixlid Jailer

1 Genesis
2 Tivadar of Thorn

Although Asmira, Holy Avenger (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/316.html) is "made" for the deck, I am not sure she deserves a slot yet or not. She is better than Tolsimir Wolfblood (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/236.html) could be, but I am not sure if she'd be better than Captain Sisay (http://magiccards.info/in/en/237.html) (for the same price).

Eternal Witness is wonderful as always. 1 Witness 1 Saffi can hold off two attacking creatures for quite a long time, gaining you 2*wardens life in the process. 2 Witness can hold off one attacking creature, and she often lets you have 8+ Swords to Plowshares.

Gaddock Teeg and Glowrider are somewhat interchangeable between mainboard and sideboard - I am not convinced one way or the other yet, but I think Glowrider has at least a little bit of an effect on every game. While Teeg is stronger vs. combo, Legendary, and sometimes comes down one turn sooner, it doesn't have an effect on some matches (and sometimes being Legendary makes him worse instead of better). With the current configuration, you can at least wait until you see what they're playing game 1 to know whether or not Teeg will be of use.

The sideboard still has ~4 slots open for discussion... 1 Genesis, 2 Tivadar, and 1 Teeg could come out for 4x something.

bladewing019

01-30-2008, 06:46 PM

I don't like 1 Bayou and 3 Birds as your only black sources for the SB Yixlid Jailers. I would either put more black sources in or drop the Jailers completely.

Sisay doesn't seem very good. It is slow, and is narrower than Survival. Asmira seems better since it is an evasive win condition rather than an expensive utility creature.

quietmage

01-30-2008, 09:06 PM

This deck is actually really good... it owned my dragon stompy on MWS

it got its combo quite frequently

Top Deck

01-31-2008, 02:49 AM

hey isamaru,
the deck to me looks a lot like project X from standard from last year. with that said why not use chord of calling? i know you are using Survival of the Fittest for discard advantage, and I like that card from portal three kingdoms. hehe i wonder how difficult it would be to get that card?

georgjorge

01-31-2008, 05:26 AM

Hmm...somehow, I don't like this build as much as some previous ones. You sure about 4 Swords AND 4 Witnesses ? I've said before why I don't think a deck like that needs so much removal, and while Witnesses look good, four definitely looks like overkill. It looks like the deck is now leaning towards Control-Combo, but losing the ability to go Aggro with Goyfs.

And were you not satisfied with the sideboarded Chokes ?

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow

01-31-2008, 11:50 AM

hehe i wonder how difficult it would be to get that card?

I have scoured the web for them and they can usually be purchased between $15 and $20 per english version of the card. It is my understanding that the english versions had a shorter print run than the foreign versions.

I guess it all depends on how much you want to spend on a developing deck that isn't top tier yet. You can always trade!

Isamaru

01-31-2008, 12:57 PM

Hello everyone - thank you for your help so far :smile:

hey isamaru,
the deck to me looks a lot like project X from standard from last year. with that said why not use chord of calling? i know you are using Survival of the Fittest for discard advantage, and I like that card from portal three kingdoms. hehe i wonder how difficult it would be to get that card?

I'd hope that the obvious "It looks like Project X" - even when stated - is made up for and explained by my opening explanations and discussion, or by comparing the strengths and weakensses of each deck. At the risk of sounding like Complete_Jank inventing Hulk Flash, I would like to say that I was actually part of the development of the deck (on MTGSalvation) 5 days before the pros found the combo and gave it a silly name. The only difference was that the pros included Dark Confidant while the original deck had Persecute for a possible "basically-win" on turn 3. In the end, the pros finally caught on and realized disruption was vital and only then could they being to win the Dragonstorm and Dralnu matches - the important ones.

Chord of Calling is a great card and was in the original versions until I included Gaddock Teeg.

In the original deck, I played Chord of Calling but, because of the Gaddock Teegs, I switched to playing 3x Eladamri’s Call, happy that GW had such a powerful creature tutor, and it was almost as good as Chord of Calling.

Survival is not what it is in a normal Survival deck. Here I use it as a reusable tutor for the pieces and sometimes for putting Akroma in the graveyard, not for "card advantage"... though it's nice to play 4-8x MUSTCOUNTERs.
Also: Creature > Squee > Akroma > Retainers into Akroma +2 life

I guess it all depends on how much you want to spend on a developing deck that isn't top tier yet. You can always trade!Sometimes it's actually nice when you use cards for a deck that isn't "top tier yet." This way, the cards are not inflated/affected by their demand at all, only by their supply and are thereby less expensive. :smile:

Hmm...somehow, I don't like this build as much as some previous ones. You sure about 4 Swords AND 4 Witnesses ? I've said before why I don't think a deck like that needs so much removal, and while Witnesses look good, four definitely looks like overkill. It looks like the deck is now leaning towards Control-Combo, but losing the ability to go Aggro with Goyfs.

And were you not satisfied with the sideboarded Chokes ?
I agree that focus itself should not be towards Swords to Plowshares, but they provide for an all-around Game1. Game 2, you can sideboard them out for what is more helpful in the matchup.

With Goblins as the best deck again, arguably, Swords to Plowshares is usually the best defense against a turn 1 lackey now that there are 12x t1-blocker-killer cards. Swords to Plowshares is also crippling to Dragon Stompy and decks with utility creatures such as Welder and Confidant.

Is there some card that defends the deck that can replace Swords to Plowshares? The only such card I have tried out was Orim's Chant because of its similar functions... but it didn't work out that well since the turn of the combo is so low-risk. The most disruptive thing during the combo is losing 1 card to 1 card (or 2 if it was FoW)... unlike in Storm where you can lose many spells to an opposing Chant, or in other combos losing 2 cards to a disrupted Dreadnought waiting to be Stifled/Hulkd.

You are somewhat right about losing the ability to go aggro (though there are still a number of ways even when the ground is stalled, and this is a great defensive deck - which is often more desireable), but I am not sure if I would take Tarmogoyf over Glowrider: The way to fit them in would be to go MB: -4 Glowrider +4 Tarmogoyf, SB: -1 Genesis, -2 Tivadar, -1 Teeg, +4 Glowrider.

I didn't get to try Choke out because bladewing believes it will only help out against Landstill and possibly Threshold (but there are more important things to board in than cards that are uneffective in multiples). He argues that Choke doesn't stop Loam decks, 43land, non-blue control decks, etc.

What is your opinion?

georgjorge

02-01-2008, 09:49 AM

Is there some card that defends the deck that can replace Swords to Plowshares? The only such card I have tried out was Orim's Chant because of its similar functions... but it didn't work out that well since the turn of the combo is so low-risk. The most disruptive thing during the combo is losing 1 card to 1 card (or 2 if it was FoW)... unlike in Storm where you can lose many spells to an opposing Chant, or in other combos losing 2 cards to a disrupted Dreadnought waiting to be Stifled/Hulkd.

You're right, it probably doesn't need that kind of thing. If you only need it to combat counterspells, Dosan, the falling Leaf is a Legend that can do just that...But if you play four Gaddocks, that should be enough, since it's mostly about the Forces.

You are somewhat right about losing the ability to go aggro (though there are still a number of ways even when the ground is stalled, and this is a great defensive deck - which is often more desireable), but I am not sure if I would take Tarmogoyf over Glowrider: The way to fit them in would be to go MB: -4 Glowrider +4 Tarmogoyf, SB: -1 Genesis, -2 Tivadar, -1 Teeg, +4 Glowrider.

Hmmm...I rather thought of replacing those four Witnesses and Swords, going down to a 2/2 split (maybe with one of each in the sideboard instead of Genesis and a Tivadar).

I didn't get to try Choke out because bladewing believes it will only help out against Landstill and possibly Threshold (but there are more important things to board in than cards that are uneffective in multiples). He argues that Choke doesn't stop Loam decks, 43land, non-blue control decks, etc.

What is your opinion?

IF you play four Gaddock and four Glowrider after sideboarding, Choke may not be needed. But if you don't fear combo so much, I would recommend playing 2 Gaddock 2 Choke sideboard, because while Glowrider/Gaddock help you get your spells through against Thresh/Fish/Landstill, Choke should outright kill them. It doesn't do much against non-blue decks (d'oh), but: two of the best three decks right now are heavily blue, and those are very widely played. If it would good against those two decks only, playing it would be justified ! But there is also Fish, MUC, Cephalid Breakfast, Aluren...

Top Deck

02-01-2008, 06:19 PM

Maybe I am not understanding something. Why do you need 4 gaddocks? He doesn't seem that strong in the deck. Or another way to say it is what in legacy costs more than 3 and is game breaking and is used a lot?

if anything gaddock is a 1 of in my opinion.

georgjorge

02-02-2008, 06:50 AM

Or another way to say it is what in legacy costs more than 3 and is game breaking and is used a lot?

1. Force of Will (disrupting the combo)
2. Engineered Explosives (clearing your board)
3. Empty the Warrens
4. Humility (you lose)

scrumdogg

02-02-2008, 10:23 AM

Even with SoTF, you need to see & play Teeg before a Survival would normally be active against a Storm deck. Storm is normally one of the scarier matchups for any SoTF deck - even those running black. Multiples allow you to consistently see one early, re-load vs removal (especially STP, which sidesteps Loyal Retainers) and it IS a SoTF deck...you can discard extras for other critters... Finding these is an ironclad PITA, there are 3 (three!) listed on all of MOTL, & they are $15 minimum with S/H everywhere else.

Puzzle

02-03-2008, 12:30 PM

1. Force of Will (disrupting the combo)
2. Engineered Explosives (clearing your board)
3. Empty the Warrens
4. Humility (you lose)5. Smokestack
6. Goblin Charbelcher
7. Ill-Gotten Gains
8. Tendrils of Agony
9. Dread Return
10. Fireblast
11. Moat

Isamaru

02-03-2008, 05:27 PM

georgejorge, I am still not 100% sure about the Choke, but I think the deck is still able to go aggro, in an indirect way (though you can always add Tarmogoyfs in your version): I've added Dust Elemental (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/5.html) and it is wonderful in here!

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PLC/en-us/Card124343.jpg The 6/6 Flying, Fear body is good to begin with.
It is "unblockable" and has reach.
The flash means it can surprise block to take down attacking Goyfs, and other 5/6s on down.
With it simply being in the deck, its ability can be gotten at any time you need it for :2::w::w::g:, since you will often be waiting until the opponents' turn to use Survival in the first place.
The flash rescue can save your 1cc creatures from a multi-block.
The flash rescue can save your 1cc creatures from a Pernicious Deed (3 or less and it lives, too).
It can die and the Witness it bounced will bring it back.
It gains ridiculous amounts of life for us.
It lets you reuse Loaming Shaman so that as long as Loaming isn't removed from the game, you will never be first to mill out.

I took 1x Isao, Enlightened Bushi (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/129.html) out for the 1x Dust Elemental (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/5.html). I also considered Pianna, Nomad Captain (http://magiccards.info/od/en/39.html) and Karn, Silver Golem (http://magiccards.info/us/en/298.html)... but they didn't have as much to offer.

Shabbaman

02-05-2008, 12:07 PM

I'm not getting enthousiastic about Dust elemental. Granted that I can't test it (because of the prohibitive cost of the retainers), it looks like it weakens the Loyal retainers (because you cut a legend). You're looking for good, cheap legends, that preferrably go to the graveyard, not big fat finishers. You have Akroma as a finisher, do you really need another? If you want the bounce I think the cheaper Stonecloaker you used earlier could be better. Have you tried the Oriss lock? It'd need a lot of slots, but I can imagine it would strengthen a lot of matchups. One other in-color legendary of note: Doran. Just pointers, not criticism: the deck looks great! It's just a matter of time until Wizards prints the missing legend.

Isamaru

02-05-2008, 12:11 PM

That is definitely true. How about a 2nd Akroma instead? (Morphing her is surprisingly strong since there are 8 ways to combo her morph-death into a win.)

Shabbaman

02-06-2008, 04:09 AM

Why not indeed? You want some beatdown in that slot, right? If the red Akroma is that good, couldn't you try to fit in more?

As it is now, you have a three card combo (retainer-saffi-warden), plus three two card combo's (saffi-akroma, retainer-akroma, mangara-karakas). And some survival fanciness, obviously. The Akroma combo's are situational: nobody who knows the deck will kill the morph, and you can't unmorph (or play!) it or sacrifice it (to pull of one of the combo's). The mangara-karakas combo is very situational: you have to draw both singletons (ok, 2 karakas, but you get the point), and then it feels more like a "win more" combo. You can get the Mangara as an answer or missing piece with Survival, but if you have an active Survival, shouldn't you just... win?

What you are doing atm is tuning the deck. Is it that good already? You might want to focus on strenghtening the different combo's OR strenghtening the beatdown aspect. From what I read, combo is your weakest matchup. Can you beat down or combo and win before they combo, or prevent them to combo? Mangara doesn't help here, nor does a single Akroma. You have room for three Akroma's, see if that works. Or perhaps Oriss-Genesis isn't that bad, although it requires 4 slots and doesn't have that much synergy with your other combo's. Or try Crypt champion. You are running black after all.

In other news, I can get Retainers for 15 euro's each... if I still have some money if I get back from holiday I'll buy them.

Isamaru

02-09-2008, 01:42 AM

Crypt Champion is the reason I set out to use the Retainers combo in the first place - the original Saffi/Champion/Warden combo is simply too weak in Legacy. The same reason Smother is good is the same reason Champion is bad: there are quite a large number of <3cc creatures in the format in opponents' decks. Losing to Mogg Fanatic or a dead Withered Wretch would not be fun. Retainers is also somewhat expensive for Legacy at 4 mana, off color (2 colors off color sometimes). Finally, if disrupted, with Crypt Champion + Saffi you'd lose both creatures instead of just one.

Oriss-Genesis is a neat idea, but I would have to spend a while testing that to see if it's worth the trouble of all those slots, as you mentioned.

I believe that Dust Elemental does strengthen the beatdown aspect and also the defense aspect of the deck, even as a 1-of. (it would stink in multiples, of course, but I don't think I'd often tutor for it if I had Survival. Usually when Survival hits, you stabilize or protect yourself with Glowriders and then win... but Dust Elemental as an option in that case is nice too.)

As discussed, and to further this goal of strengthening beatdown and/or the different inner interactions, I have added the second red Akroma. You mentioned that we have no way to kill her... I think the idea is rather to stop the opponent from attacking (they will probably not refrain from doing so unless they've walked into it already).

Mangara is not meant to be good against anything in particular, and unlike in Death and Taxes, it is not a goal of the deck. It is a side interaction from Karakas with a creature we'd already want 1x as a Survival target to get rid of pesky things after combo-ing, or shortly before.

The other way to strengthen the beatdown aspect would be to use Team-Pump effects like Tolsimir (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/236.html) or Pianna (http://magiccards.info/od/en/39.html), but that is quite vulnerable to either still being outclassed by the opposition, or to mass removal.

The other way to go aggro is to play Tarmogoyf - which I am going to be sideboarding in this next version, with the note that they are swappable with the mainboarded Glowriders (or Swords to Plowshares?) depending on the metagame - combo or control.

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

// Creatures (31)
The Mana (5)
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

The Combo (13)
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (4/10)
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (10)
4 Glowrider
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dust Elemental

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

1 Genesis / Kataki, War's Wage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tivadar of Thorn
4 Tarmogoyf

The card that I really don't care for anymore is Swords to Plowshares. It is definitely on its way out. However, georgjorge, I think 4x Eternal Witness is the right number. Yixlid Jailer does nothing for the deck other than help it against Loam, which Gripmare+Glowrider will hopefully already do in any matchup where the combo would be threatened. (Though Devastating Dreams are Devastating.)

georgjorge

02-09-2008, 07:54 AM

Is Dust Elemental really better than Caller of the Claw ? Both protect from mass removal, and both are great with Warden, with Caller also being a win condition when you combo. Elemental is clearly more powerful, but not always castable...Anyway, IF there is a deck that can use the Elemental, this is probably it.

pooispoois

02-09-2008, 03:27 PM

I think Stonecloaker would be safer to use than Dust Elemental. It doesn't do some things a Dust Elemental would do (doesn't kill a Tarmogoyf alone, and it doesn't rescue your whole team, although rescuing an Eternal Witness and Saffi action already does a good job at that). On the upside, it does allow you to recur comes into play creatures, helps with the beatdown, is easier to cast, provides mainboard tutorable graveyard hate, and most importantly is dead much less often.

Another idea is Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. It probably isn't that useful, as your combo is resilient, and it is only really good against decks with lots of removal. It does protect all of your permanents, though. And it's also nice that the main creature control spell is already white. Overall it doesn't seem that useful, but just throwing an idea out there.

Peter_Rotten

02-10-2008, 08:06 PM

Figured I'd share this: (I'm To the Core)

Noir plays Doran, the Siege Tower from Hand

<Noir> End my turn
<To the Core> Ok

It is now turn 7 (To the Core)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
To the Core untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
To the Core draws a card
To the Core plays Karakas from Hand
To the Core taps Forest
To the Core taps Savannah
To the Core taps Forest
To the Core plays Loyal Retainers from Hand
To the Core's life total is now 21 (+1)

<To the Core> infinite combo to gain life
<To the Core> i'll be at 100000
<To the Core> Ok?
<Noir> no
<To the Core> y not?
<Noir> u do really?
<To the Core> yes, sac Saffi targeting Retainers.
<Noir> plz 100000 nummber
<To the Core> then sac retainers bringing Saffi back (retianers come back also)

To the Core's life total is now 1000000 (+999979)
It is now the Combat Phase, Beginning Of Combat Step
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
It is now turn 8 (Noir)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Noir untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Noir draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Noir taps Murmuring Bosk
Noir taps Murmuring Bosk
Noir taps Scrubland
Noir plays Vindicate from Hand (Here it targets Retainer)

<To the Core> repeat the sac process
<To the Core> to avoid Vindicate
<Noir> h---
<Noir> noob?
<System> Player Lost

I just popped my MWS Noob cherry with - of all decks - this one????

Isamaru

02-10-2008, 08:45 PM

You really do Godfish decks, don't you, Peter.

I am not surprised you smashed face... yet some people on MWS don't give up even when I have 99999999 life, Akroma, Saffi, Survival, and Loaming Shaman on myself.

You can't repeat the sac process on their turn, but with 10000000 life, I don't think you'll be mourning the loss of one creature at that point. :smile:

pooispoois, I will test with Stonecloaker and Dust Elemental while considering the other at the moment each comes up and we will see which one proves more useful. For now, I think that Stonecloaker can't singlehandedly turn a game around like Dust Elemental can... which is sometimes worth having 1 dead card in hand. (Control decks sometimes can't yet cast Fact or Fiction, but having it in hand means they can eventually then turn a game around which a smaller version of the effect may not have been able to do.) I will try out both keeping the other in mind and we'll see how it goes. :smile:

Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is actually a really great idea, espeically when compared to Isao. You trade uncounterability for the regeneration of any of your creatures at the same cost. I really like that, and if I reinclude Isao again, I will consider Eight-and-a-Half-Tails first, which I also have a lot of good memories with.

scrumdogg

02-18-2008, 04:28 AM

Ran a version of this today, went 3-0-1 (ID last round) &; split top 4 of a 15 person tourney. Still not satisfied with it but gaining 3 billion life is a lot of fun...Lands:4x Windswept Heath3x Wooded Foothills1x Taiga4x Savannah1x Pendlehaven (was never relevant, sadly, but didn't hurt either)2x Plains (lots of Dragon Stompy in central MA)6x Forests (see above)Stuff:4x SotF4x Aether Vial (saved my ass multiple times &; allows the combo to sidestep counters)4x STPCritters:3x Essence Warden3x Auriok Champion (still not convinced but it dodges CotV @ 1 &; like I said, lots of red & black in the meta...Bikini Chick hates on the red)4x Eternal Witness4x Saffi Eriksdotter1x Loyal Retainers (all I currently own)4x Birds of Paradise4x Tarmogoyf1x Squee, Rubber Goblin1x Anger1x Genesis1x Harmonic Sliver1x Fire Imp (should have been Sharpshooter if I go that route at all...)Sideboard:I hate Landstill & Board Control1x Scryb Rangers1x Rofellos1x Orcish SettlersI hate tokens & combo kill1x Goblin SharpshooterI hates me some artifacts & counterbalances4x Krosan GripI hates me some combo (and control....)4x Gaddock TeegToo good not to have somewhere...& helps versus critters 3x Umezawa's JitteRound 1 vs Dragon StompyGame 1 sees him get a slow start, giving me time (with some judicious chump blocking) to set up the infinite life combo the turn before he would finish me off. Game 2 sees him get much better pressure & do what DS does so wellGame 3 sees him with adequate mana but ZERO pressure except a Jitte equipped SSG....which leads to him losing it in combat & getting nibbled to death by 2/3 Goyfs....which weren't leaving the building due to a timely early SaffiRound 2 vs UGw Aggro-Control (NOT Thresh, this played a higher curve with cards like Hierarch as well as Jitte & Goyf & STP & counters etc etc)Game 1 sees me combo off at 2 life after some fancy dancing in the combat phases after getting stuck on 1 land, 1 BoP, & 1 Vial for a loooooong time, whew....Game 2 involves sticking a Vial & thereby ignoring Meddling Mage. Given his higher-than-Thresh curve, STPing an early Goyf forces him to tap out at some point, for a Sower of Temptation to steal my Goyf, at which point Man With Stick said "Go Farm!" which lead to stupid Survival & Vial tricks for the win via even more hasty Goyfs-of-Unusual SizeRound 3 vs UB Board Control Deck involving Trinket Mages, Counter-Top, EE, Academy Ruins, Platinum Angel, Morphling, counters, Pithing Needle, counters & more counters, Stifle AND Trickbind....plus assorted other things that didn't end up making an impact in our 1 game like Damnation & Tombstalker.Game the First & Only saw the good guys (me) stabilize on 5 life with a SotF that snuck in after baiting FoW with a Goyf. This allowed the Harmonic Sliver on the Needle stopping my 2x Vials from enabling the combo. Safely at 3 billion + 5 life, I proceeded to try & aggro him out with weasels...as he then dropped Counterbalance & Platinum Angel (he already had a Top) as well as recycling the Needle for SotF. This is where Sharpshooter would have ended the game in a hurry when it was eventually drawn, but we had to go a different route. He had fewer cards in library than me but was baffled by the deck & demoralized by the life totals (3 billion + vs - a lot & dropping every turn...) he missed opportunities to recycle EE & clear things off my board (like the eventual 4x Aether Vial). Don't know what his plan was, but we were both playing for the looooong Game 1 win, which I set up with a hand of 3x Eternal Witness, 4x STP when were at 7 & 6 cards respectively. This would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, had the Vials not been in play (& all set at 3) :) At his EOT, I cast STP on his Platinum Angel, he activates Top to look, then attempts to draw & replace, in response I cast STP, he counters, I cast STP #3 in response, he counters with Force, I allow that to resolve, then attempt to Vial in a Witness, which he Trickbinds...but there were back ups, Witness gets STP, cast STP, he Forces (which we both missed him being unable to do, as he couldn't pay the 1 life, but whatever), cast STP#4 in response to which he ponders, pays to look again, & reveals a 2cc card, land, land on top & an island in hand....State Based Effects have their Evil Way with him & I escape the round....Round 4 vs the other 3-0 guy with a BGW Good stuff deck (discard, pinpoint removal like STP & Vindicate, Jitte, Goyfs, Dorans, etc) we ID, but it would have been an interesting match.It was a blast to play (as are most Survival decks) and surprisingly resilient. Still mulling over what to replace when the other three Loyal Retainers arrive, but it may be some combination of Anger, STP(s), 1 Witness, & Essence Warden(s). I would also love to add 1x of each Akroma but finding space is difficult. I like that combo pieces can be distilled down to one each after sideboarding if you aren't facing STPs to make room for sideboarded cards to come in. Thoughts & ideas welcome, especially as I'm mulling what the deck would look like with black or blue instead of red (or even straight GW...)</p>

smoky squirrel

02-18-2008, 07:11 AM

As a lurker doing some relevant stuff, Return key FTW

Ran a version of this today, went 3-0-1 (ID last round) &; split top 4 of a 15 person tourney. Still not satisfied with it but gaining 3 billion life is a lot of fun...

Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Taiga
4x Savannah
1x Pendlehaven (was never relevant, sadly, but didn't hurt either)
2x Plains (lots of Dragon Stompy in central MA)
6x Forests (see above)
Stuff:
4x SotF
4x Aether Vial (saved my ass multiple times &; allows the combo to sidestep counters)
4x STP
Critters:
3x Essence Warden
3x Auriok Champion (still not convinced but it dodges CotV @ 1 &; like I said, lots of red & black in the meta...Bikini Chick hates on the red)
4x Eternal Witness
4x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Loyal Retainers (all I currently own)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Squee, Rubber Goblin
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Fire Imp (should have been Sharpshooter if I go that route at all...)Sideboard:
I hate Landstill & Board Control
1x Scryb Rangers
1x Rofellos
1x Orcish Settlers
I hate tokens & combo kill
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
I hates me some artifacts & counterbalances
4x Krosan Grip
I hates me some combo (and control....)
4x Gaddock Teeg
Too good not to have somewhere...& helps versus critters
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 vs Dragon Stompy
Game 1 sees him get a slow start, giving me time (with some judicious chump blocking) to set up the infinite life combo the turn before he would finish me off.
Game 2 sees him get much better pressure & do what DS does so well
Game 3 sees him with adequate mana but ZERO pressure except a Jitte equipped SSG....which leads to him losing it in combat & getting nibbled to death by 2/3 Goyfs....which weren't leaving the building due to a timely early Saffi

Round 2 vs UGw Aggro-Control (NOT Thresh, this played a higher curve with cards like Hierarch as well as Jitte & Goyf & STP & counters etc etc)
Game 1 sees me combo off at 2 life after some fancy dancing in the combat phases after getting stuck on 1 land, 1 BoP, & 1 Vial for a loooooong time, whew....
Game 2 involves sticking a Vial & thereby ignoring Meddling Mage. Given his higher-than-Thresh curve, STPing an early Goyf forces him to tap out at some point, for a Sower of Temptation to steal my Goyf, at which point Man With Stick said "Go Farm!" which lead to stupid Survival & Vial tricks for the win via even more hasty Goyfs-of-Unusual Size

Round 3 vs UB Board Control Deck involving Trinket Mages, Counter-Top, EE, Academy Ruins, Platinum Angel, Morphling, counters, Pithing Needle, counters & more counters, Stifle AND Trickbind....plus assorted other things that didn't end up making an impact in our 1 game like Damnation & Tombstalker.
Game the First & Only saw the good guys (me) stabilize on 5 life with a SotF that snuck in after baiting FoW with a Goyf. This allowed the Harmonic Sliver on the Needle stopping my 2x Vials from enabling the combo. Safely at 3 billion + 5 life, I proceeded to try & aggro him out with weasels...as he then dropped Counterbalance & Platinum Angel (he already had a Top) as well as recycling the Needle for SotF. This is where Sharpshooter would have ended the game in a hurry when it was eventually drawn, but we had to go a different route. He had fewer cards in library than me but was baffled by the deck & demoralized by the life totals (3 billion + vs - a lot & dropping every turn...) he missed opportunities to recycle EE & clear things off my board (like the eventual 4x Aether Vial). Don't know what his plan was, but we were both playing for the looooong Game 1 win, which I set up with a hand of 3x Eternal Witness, 4x STP when were at 7 & 6 cards respectively. This would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, had the Vials not been in play (& all set at 3) :) At his EOT, I cast STP on his Platinum Angel, he activates Top to look, then attempts to draw & replace, in response I cast STP, he counters, I cast STP #3 in response, he counters with Force, I allow that to resolve, then attempt to Vial in a Witness, which he Trickbinds...but there were back ups, Witness gets STP, cast STP, he Forces (which we both missed him being unable to do, as he couldn't pay the 1 life, but whatever), cast STP#4 in response to which he ponders, pays to look again, & reveals a 2cc card, land, land on top & an island in hand....State Based Effects have their Evil Way with him & I escape the round....

Round 4 vs the other 3-0 guy with a BGW Good stuff deck (discard, pinpoint removal like STP & Vindicate, Jitte, Goyfs, Dorans, etc) we ID, but it would have been an interesting match.It was a blast to play (as are most Survival decks) and surprisingly resilient.
Still mulling over what to replace when the other three Loyal Retainers arrive, but it may be some combination of Anger, STP(s), 1 Witness, & Essence Warden(s). I would also love to add 1x of each Akroma but finding space is difficult. I like that combo pieces can be distilled down to one each after sideboarding if you aren't facing STPs to make room for sideboarded cards to come in. Thoughts & ideas welcome, especially as I'm mulling what the deck would look like with black or blue instead of red (or even straight GW...)

scrumdogg

02-19-2008, 04:24 PM

God bless you my son, that was snuck in at work using the toaster ovens we run...and they submitted it wrong, so I editted it...and it stayed the same. Can't thank you enough for rectifying that, that being said, what would the world at large recommend removing for 3x Loyal Retainer & 1 of each Akroma?

georgjorge

02-19-2008, 04:44 PM

Seems pretty brave of you to run a combo deck and include one of the combo parts only as a one-of...I mean, it seems like you can get away with cutting down on Witness, Swords, Elves or whatever, but Retainers ?

Isamaru

02-19-2008, 05:00 PM

Very very good job at the tournament, scrumdogg! If you did that great with 1x Retainer, imagine how great you'll do with four! haha I wouldn't have had the guts to play with only 1 Retainers, so well done. :smile:

You could try taking out Harmonic Sliver for Mangara (even if you can't find 2x Karakas right now) because Mangara (though slower) is more useful if you're not winning yet.

To fit in 2 Red Akroma + 3 Loyal Retainer, you could try taking out: 1 Anger, 1 Genesis, 1 Auriok Champion (5 Wardens is plenty, so this leaves 6), 1 Fire Imp, and 1 Birds of Paradise.

OR (perhaps more realistically), due to Aether Vial replacing the mana creatures, you would probably want to try out -4 Birds, -1 Anger/AuriokChampion or something along those lines.

21 land is necessary with 5 mana creatures, but since your version is using Aether Vial, you could get away with either 20 land and/or less Birds like I mentioned above.

I do like the fact that red lets you beat control decks nicely with access to Orcish Settlers, Blastminer, Blood Moon, and especially Magus of the Moon. The two colored version has a tougher time with board control since it can't simply drop a bomb against them (it only has Genesis... and somewhat Glowrider, and Teeg). With Birds of Paradise, it is easy to splash a 3rd color, but I am wondering if it is necessary or helpful - and if so, which color serves us best?

Sorry I haven't updated anything in a while. The only thing I've come up with to share since last time is possibly 1x Hibernation's End (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/110.html) (to act as a 5th Survival that works against board control)... it gets you the combo in 3 turns if untouched, but you'd have to run something 4cc (Dust Elemental?) in that version which takes away room from other strategies.

I'll give Aether Vial another chance, but it is hard to find the room.

scrumdogg

02-19-2008, 05:05 PM

When you are discussing cards that are difficult to acquire, sometimes you only have 1 of them :cool: However, if ANY deck-type is made for the one-of, it is Survival of the Fittest decks.... Quite frankly, there are two different approaches that can be taken with regards to the combo - all out or as one of many possible routes to take. I actually sideboarded out combo pieces to allow for different plans in that tournament. If your opponent is focusing on one aspect of your deck, the ability to sideswipe them with an alternate plan can be quite powerful. I have been debating removing the STPs to the SB in an all-out combo version of this deck, to maximize the combo Game 1. In this format, being up a game is such a huge advantage & not many decks can cope with essentially infinite life. But constructing a sideboard that adequately deals with the format is a huge challenge. What thoughts are there on a sideboard?

DragoFireheart

02-19-2008, 05:37 PM

Isamaru

02-19-2008, 05:52 PM

I play 1x Loaming Shaman in my version, but I just realized Scrumdogg didn't include him that tournament.

He is worth a slot in this deck, so find the room for him too. (I guess take out all 4 Birds then in the Aether Vial version?) I suppose even if you don't include him, you'll usually just win a couple turns after you have infinite life with a Red Akroma. It's nice having him for insurance, sometimes for beating, sometimes for destroying Ichorid, sometimes for hurting Loam a lot, etc.

scrumdogg

02-19-2008, 06:56 PM

So what happens when an opponent WILL drag out the match in an attempt to make you deck yourself?

:laugh:

Really though, there is always that stubborn player [such as myself] that won't scoop until the turn before I would have actually lost anyways.

Nor should you scoop, make me beat you! That is precisely why I want a Sharshooter maindeck, it autokills with the combo & creates poor combat decisions if I'm trying to beat you to death (block my 2/2s & get Sharpshot or your critters finished or take the damage? Oh wait, you have Genesis....fantastic). Goyf vs Goyf with Sharpshooter is an entirely different game than without. The ability to finish is also a reason to use Akromas - they win games when they resolve.

I responded to Isamaru before, but my computer hacked up a hairball & I lost the response...dammit... Short version, BoPs could go, as there are Vials, but I would want either more land (2:1 probably) or a few tutors (E. Tutor) to increase the reliability of Vial. In a red heavy meta, especially the cheap, easy Dragon Stompy, Karakas has a poor benefit to risk ratio, unless you play a heavy D&T plan. There is a reason I play 3 Auriok Champion & am considering adding the 4th Bikini Chick. Game 1 Pithing Needle, Counterbalance, CotV, Trinisphere, SotF, Jitte, Sword of Anything, Crucible of Worlds, EE, Deed....these & more problematic artifacts & enchantments see play. The one piece of disruption I am extremely uncomfortable in remving from maindeck is a way to deal with artifatcs & enchantments as being up Game 1 is a huge advantage in Legacy.

Isamaru

02-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Sorry that your computer blew up - were you on your office's computer again? haha I get the impression that you work at the office in Office Space now. PC Load Letter?!

Yes, "Bikini Chick" :tongue: is pretty good in a Dragon Stompy metagame, while Karakas is nonbasic (so risky in the current meta as you said). I am testing with 1 Auriok Champion for now, but I may just try 3-4, even though it decreases the speed of the combo by a lot.

Sharpshooter is a nice alternative to Caller of the Claw and Asmira, Holy Avengers' effects. Out of all 3, it is the one that does the most pre and post comboing. It takes heavy red to get it though, so it would need 4 Aether Vial / 4 BoP for sure, and it would only be available in a red-splash version. (What do you think of the other color splashes?)

Playing Harmonic Sliver over Mangara (even at the cost of Karakas shmexiness) sounds like the better choice in the current metagame. You should not fear Trinisphere or Pithing Needle or Equipment (Saffi + Witness tagteam), but Crucible, Deed, Chalice, and Counterbalance do hurt.

The hate people bring in most often is Pithing Needle naming Saffi. In that case, I usually just play around it and win with Akroma... You can spend the time to get destroy the Needle, but I win most of my games with Akroma in the first place (which can only be done in a 4x Retainers version, so I understand that you didn't play her when you only owned 1x at that point) so you might as well go for the throat. I love that she is nearly impossible to remove once she is out on the field, and I'd almost like to play 3 of her since it is just so easy to pull off turning her morph-death into her unmorphed body.

The GW version would be something like this then... designed to win in the metagame, rather than to exploit as many synergies as possible.

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy / Basics? (meta)
2 Karakas / Basics? (meta)

// Creatures (31)
The Mana (4)
4 Birds of Paradise

The Combo (14)
3 Essence Warden
3 Auriok Champion (meta)
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Legends (5/9)
3 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Mangara of Corondor / Harmonic Sliver (meta)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility (9)
4 Glowrider / Tarmogoyf (meta)
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman

// Non-Creature Spells (8)

4 Swords to Plowshares (meta)
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard (15)

1 Genesis / Kataki, War's Wage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare

4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tivadar of Thorn (meta)
4 Tarmogoyf / Glowrider

scrumdogg

02-24-2008, 03:57 PM

2-2 this week with Sharpshooter main & changes in the sideboard, including 1x each of the Akromas (which I still want to fit maindeck & mean to do so wehn the other 3x Loyal Retainers arrive, damn China for being so far away...).

Round 1 vs Mike from CT - heckuva nice guy I haven't seen in a couple of years. He is a good Type 1 player & ironically we were playing against each other for fun before Round 1 (although I was playing IGGY to get used to combo) :cool: Oh, he is playing Faerie Stompy...

Game 1 involves him getting me to 1 life but not dead due to Vial, Auriok Champion & several random critters. I survive his last gasp attack, have baited counters out to have landed SotF last turn, untap, gain 3 billion life (he asks to see combo, scoops when it happens).

Game 2 I didn't side in much stuff, but I did put the random Scryb Ranger from the Control LD plan...guess who shows up in my opening hand? His Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Serendib plan suddenly became much less scary. Turn 1 Vial (no FoW) hits and an added Sea Drake lets me flash in Ranger, who limits damage to the point I can bait SotF into play (multiple Saffis in hand & a Witness help..Saffi scared him for some reason). He lands another Sea Drake and I have Goyf. My 2/3 Goyf attacks, is blocked by Drake (thank you) Vial at 2 sends in Saffi, who sacs to make Goyf bigger & return after combat damage. I thought that went quite well, he was not amused.... Ironically, he ends up casting & equipping SoFI at a low life total, swings for enough to put me at 1, but equipped blue guy is blocked by Scryb Rangers...Goyf & weasels crack back for the win. Whew.

Round 2 vs Tony of the epic 1 game round last week & UB Countertop Trinket Stifle-Nought.

In essence, one of the weaknesses of a deck not playing blue comes out & I am stuck on what I get while he draws cards, tutors cards, manipulates the top of his deck both games. Early Counter-Tops don't hurt at all. I am seriously considering turning this into a straight combo version with E Tutors but need to consider what to cut. 0-2

Round 3 vs Josh with BRU Affinity

Game 1 I win the die roll, keep a good hand (I know he's on Affinity) and play land, Vial, go. He drops an artifact land, Springleaf Drum, Ornithopter, tap both Frogmite, Frogmite, Frogmite (yes, I did cut...). Wanna guess what he topdecked? Yep, the Cranial Plating...14 on Turn 2 & the ability to switch equipment after blockers saw us onto
Game 2 in VERY short order....
All the artifact hate comes in from the board, including the random Meltdown I added as a 15th card. He needs an explosive start against me & early STP, Harmonic, Witness ensure he doesn't get it, the combo aseembles & we go to Game 3 (you can't Shrapnel Blast Auriok Champion & Affinity has no good way to stop an active Survival short of killing me, which is indeed effective).
Game 3 sees him drop two quick Disciples but one goes farming in response to a Ravager. Ground stall develops, including me hardcasting Squee as a blocker (where is the damn Survival?!?). He ends up with 6 mana in play, including 2 Glimmervoids & has Drum but he holds a card in hand....something is amiss....Survival finally lands, most of the combo is in play, but still the card remains in his hand. Next turn I am going for it regardless as I now have the mana & the set up...when I topdeck Meltdown...oh my sweet Christ. All of his board dies to Meltdown @2 except 2 Glimmervoids, 1 Disciple, and an Enforcer. I have an STP in hand that has been waiting for a flier, so I meltdown for 2, lose a bunch to DotV, STP Enforcer in response to modular & watch his Glimmervoids die...making the Extirpate he is holding uncastable & none of my combo pieces in graveyard. Oops.

Round 4 vs Alan Autino with essentially a Type 2 G/B garruk Control deck. The only non T2 cards are Bayous & Sakura Tribe Elders I believe. Don't laugh, the deck is very effective in our combo light meta & Autino recently won a PTQ, he is a good player.

Game 1 I keep a hand with Pendelhaven, Plains, BoP, SotF etc...and never get another land except the second plains...the only 2 land in my deck which don't have green...BoP meets an early death & I limp through the game until he gets the inevitable Garruk overrun death.

Game 2 I never see a Survival and an early Vial meets an Indrik Stomphowler. I attempt to pressure him with Goyf + Saffi tricks, but they aren't enough & he Extirpates Saffis. The inevitable then occurs eventually, oh well :cool:

Still a lot of fun & none of the rounds were unwinnable, but the deck needs to be made more consistent. The sideboard also wants to have 47 cards, so crafting a tight, multipurpose sideboard is also a priority.

Isamaru

02-24-2008, 05:38 PM

Good job, scrumdogg! I hope your 3 Loyal Retainers come in the mail soon, yet you've been doing great with only 1! :smile:

It sounds like you didn't draw Eternal Witness in any of those games? ...I am surprised that 2 out of 4 people were playing Extirpate. It doesn't kill us persay, but it hurts a bit. You could almost consider playing Living Wish... but then it gets a lot slower and resembles Life.

Instead of one of each Akroma, I would suggest playing 2 Red Akroma (that's what I play) because of the whole idea behind playing the Red one in the first place: she isn't dead without Survival. The whole idea is that if you have Survival, you've already won, so Akroma morph-death-into-win is a strategy that is best when you don't have anything else to do. Though you can only do this with 4 Retainers in the deck, of course, so try it out once they come in.

For your meta, you could probably seriously consider Eight-and-a-Half Tails (as pooispoois was saying) if you go to two colors. It sounds like 8.5 would help a bit in the situations you lost in. It also has the ability to make your creatures unblockable.

Keep up the good work, it sounds like you made some great plays, too.

scrumdogg

02-24-2008, 06:17 PM

Extirpate doesn't see as much play as it should, in my opinion, and it kills us dead as a combo deck. Extirpate on Saffi is combo-over (although the deck has functions outside the combo as well). Eternal Witness has been good to me many games & it is one of my favorite creatures, it gets even sillier with Vial, as now many people can't stop it at all. However, against a Counter-Top which runs maindeck Trinket Mages, Vedalken Shackles & something else at 3cc, without a Vial in play it gets much much worse. 2x red Akroma makes sense I guess, although I am heavier white. Without Rofellos though, I'm probably never going to cast her, and if I have active Survival I have better plays (like gaining 3 billion life....).

Isamaru

03-28-2008, 08:20 PM

But those are all reasons to play the extra Arkomas. Of course she isn't the main plan, but she is good to have when the main plan isn't an option.

I am still very unsure about Aether Vial and the amount of basics. It takes 6-8 months of playing with a deck to figure out a mana base perfectly for me.

I think my most recent list I have been testing looks like this:

I Will Survive

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
6 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy / Basics? (meta)
2 Karakas / Basics? (meta)

3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

4 Essence Warden
1 Auriok Champion (meta)
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Glowrider

4 Eternal Witness
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Dust Elemental
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Mangara of Corondor / Harmonic Sliver (meta)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Survival of the Fittest
0 Swords to Plowshares (meta)
Sideboard

4 Serenity (I use so few, that it might be better than Grip since I lose to Stax and Enchantress)
3 Wispmare/Krosan Grip

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis / Kataki, War's Wage
2 Tivadar of Thorn (meta)
4 Tarmogoyf

dahcmai

03-30-2008, 03:03 PM

I'm probably going to get flamed for this one, but I used to play a Legendary guy in my survival deck for laughs and it turned up being halfway decent just because it was less mana intensive than Spore Frog/Genesis or Spike Weaver/Genesis and didn't rely on the graveyard. (We have a lot of grave hate here, why I got the idea). Anyway Angus MacKenzie is basically a spore frog every turn for U/G/W. IF you can afford the one U, it's not a bad thought. He's legendary also so Retainers and Karakas still hit him.

I have a U/G/W deck that runs Saffi and Retainers and he's in it and has been working pretty decent.

Isamaru

03-30-2008, 06:12 PM

hahaha Angus MacKenzie is actually really cool - especially the art. I've never seen him before, even on Random Card.

However, he might be able to be functionally replaced, since this deck should already beat aggro. (And unfortunately, aggro wont have a hard time killing a 2/2). The first thought is Tarmogoyf stupidly, but there are more creative functional replacements too, though perhaps not legendary. I would prefer just to hog up the board with Iwamori, or Dust Elemental, of course, than to play something like Peacekeeper (if you played Living Wish)... but again, I don't think you should be worried about aggro decks anyway. I am more afraid of not having enough threats against Aggro Control and Control.

I'd like to strengthen those matchups somehow, but the problem with something strong like Harmonize is that it is too easily countered, while Garruk wouldn't help the main goal of the deck (since its CA isnt derived from the rest of your library's strategy, as with Harmonize).

scrumdogg

03-31-2008, 06:42 AM

Played the deck yesterday to a 3-2 finish in a 21 person local Legacy tournament. Ran pretty much my normal configuration but -1 Akroma (leaving the red beatstick) +1 Darkheart Sliver with the sideboard 4x Krosan Grip, 4x Extirpate, 2x Null Rod, 2x Offalsnout, 3x EE.

Round 1 I get paired against my son....oh joyful...and he's playing the Bw Poxless Pox build we worked on most of last year. LD + Tabernacles + Moat + Ghostly Prison is NOT what a Survival deck wants to see.

Game 1 sees him blow up a steady string of things, including my Turn 1 Aether Vial on his Turn 2, a bunch of my land, and him dropping a Moat after I start Saffi-beating him. He makes a crucial mistake, however, in dropping a second Mox Diamond & ditching the Bloodstained Mire in his hand (he has Top down) without a Crucible in play. He really didn't need the 2nd Mox, but he did need ways to dig deeper & as soon as he hit a Crucible or a beater I was in a world of hurt. I finally get a Survival, ditch Akroma (after getting the usual suspects) to find Retainers, pay, fly over, win. Whew.

Game 2 I side in the Offalsnouts & Null Rods for the Goyfs. Another drawn out battle in which he gets me to 4 before I find STP for his Tombstalker (after a turn of Darkheart->Saffi->Darkheart to stay alive. Manage to Offalsnout a Wasteland in response to Crucible, find SotF, do silly things. Stupid DCI Reporter. I did find a Null Rod...and immediately drew a Vial...oops.

Round 2 versus John - Burn. John is an extremely nice guy & a very sharp player. He top 4'ed, again.

Game 1 we both end up at 1, his hand is empty, I kill him next attack if he draws a land. It isn't a land. Oh well.

Game 2 I go first & get the combo going quickly, he enters the scoop phase & we're on to our usual Game 3.

Game 3 I get a Turn 1 Aether Vial, Turn 2 Bikini Chick but no creatures other than an uncastable Squee into a Turn 4 Bikini Chick. However, when I attempt to Vial her in, he responds by doing exactly enough damage to kill me...dammit. I figured out afterward that I should have set Vial to 3 as I could hardcast Auriok Champion & then been able to Vial in Squee as well. Oh well, I would have been at 1-2 but he would have been empty handed with no mana on the board. Live & learn.

Round 3 vs Warren with FEB

Game 1 he gets SotF much sooner than I do. I interrupt his combo the first time but aren't able to do so the second time. Akroma into Phage says my life total is irrelevant.

Game 2 I don't remember what I board but I left the EEs in the board. The game drags out long term but he gets silly Witness to return Witnesses with a vial at 3 blocking my Goyf with me at low life totals. Anger needs to come back in so Akroma & Goyfs & weasels become hasty... Damn, out of contention, but I can still play & learn & help the boys tiebreakers as he is 2-1.

Round 4 vs a new kid with bad Enchantress

Game 1 those 10 cards I sided in against Warren & pulled out? Guess which 10 I shuffled back into the deck? Not the 10 maindeck cards...I get 2 SB cards in opening hand, call the judge, issue myself a game loss for being a dumbasss & proceed to Game 2...sigh

Game 2 my deck does what it does...and he drops CoP Green...maindeck. Well, never have I been so glad of Akroma... We do have fun, bantering for the benefit of his friends spectating the match. Hopefully we can get all their decks upgraded & them to attend regularly.

Game 3, see Game 2, no sideboarding, no need.

Round 5 vs Josh playing Autino's BG Garruk Control deck

Game 1 sees an early SotF lead to 3 billion life, we proceed to Game 2, where past experience has shown me Extirpate will arrive to screw with my day...

Game 2 This game my plan is play aggro against his control, run out enough threats to work him over, make him sweep, reload, repeat, combo if able (yeah right). An early pair of Goyfs go from 4/5s to 2/3s when he green Commands my SotF & graveyard back into my library. Then he Plow Unders two of my lands on top. D'oh. As you can imagine this slows things down. At some point he dropped a Garruk & made a beast. I STP it at EOT and shank the Garruk, but he drops a hardcast Shriekmaw on a Goyf then he finds & plays a Chameleon Colossus. My techy play of morphing Akroma, blocking then Retainersing it into play doesn't look so hot now but I do it anyway & take a massive hit. As expected Extirpate slurps all of my Loyal Retainers out of the game, but I would rather lose them than the Saffis quite honestly. Thankfully I topdeck into a hardcastable Squee. That Turns it into a race between Akroma & Shriekmaw. Neither of us draw removal, Akroma wins.

In a nice bit of irony, my son is playing right next to me...and playing Warren. He wins in two, making that the 3rd Survival deck he's faced on the day (going 1-1-1 with the draw being a matter of his opponent stalling game 3 when he realized he couldn't win but he could lose). Josh makes Top4, they split, and a good time was had by all.

Akroma remains amazing for me against a number of match ups, but one seems to be the right number. She would really like Anger, though, as would the Goyfs & weasels when I want to play like a normal Survival beatdown deck. The sideboard has been fine for me, although I will probably go down to 1x Offalsnout to fit something back into the sideboard - the question being which card? Darkheart has earned a spot maindeck, maybe I can sideboard one Vial. Three should be fine for most matchups & it is better to have critters than stuff.

Isamaru

03-31-2008, 09:08 PM

Scrumdogg - awesome tournament report! Thank you for going, representing, and working on the deck. Well done, and I hope you had fun.

People apparently (http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=360037646336) really want Loyal Retainers... more than me? ...Sheesh. I hope that I (3****a) wasn't competing with someone from our own forum... that would suck.

So shall I include 1x Rhys? http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68457&d=1206936244

Cabal-kun

03-31-2008, 09:24 PM

So shall I include 1x Rhys? http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68457&d=1206936244

I say no. What purpose will it serve? Your one drops are taken up by Vial, StP, mana creatures, and your lifegainers. Each of these serve an integral purpose in the deck.

Rhys does nothing to further your game plan. For the same mana you can cast Loyal Retainers, it allows you to make a 1/1 creature token that does nothing to contribute to your main game plan. Its six mana ability is utterly worthless.

Isamaru

03-31-2008, 09:39 PM

I think the only reason I asked was because "GW Cheap Legend" popped off of the screen at me and I didn't even read what he did, really. :tongue:

EDIT: http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/taste/db30_vz6kn.jpg He is also not helpful, right? I think Dust Elemental is better for its purpose.

Cabal-kun

04-02-2008, 10:45 AM

EDIT: http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/taste/db30_vz6kn.jpg He is also not helpful, right? I think Dust Elemental is better for its purpose.

Sideboard material against decks that pack discard. That's my first impression in the context of I Will Survive.

Looking into it deeper, what Liege allows you to do is try to go aggro with your creatures. Saffi gets +2, and all your other creatures will get +1. But there is where we run into one of those eternal questions: Is it a win more card?

Based on what specific list you have, I Will Survive (correct me if I am mistaken) tries to win by 1) Infinite Life Combo, 2) Retainering a Akroma into play and beating down, and 3) *If running Goyf* Creature beatdown.

The earliest Liege will come down on is Turn 3 off of a mana creature. Liege will certainly strengthen your aggro plan (I won one of my two games by beating down with Loaming Shaman and Saffi) without a doubt. Your Goyfs, if you run them, will survive combat with opposing Goyfs, and take them down as well.

What would you take out? How would you modify the deck to include a card that will tilt I Will Survive towards an aggro plan?

Isamaru

04-12-2008, 02:50 AM

Vexing Shusher {rg}{rg}
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Vexing Shusher can't be countered by spells or abilities.
{rg}: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.
2/2
This is not needed, as counterbalance is dealt with by the sideboard if it becomes a problem.... Harmonic Sliver is much better than this.

Runed Halo WW
Enchantment
As Runed Halo comes into play, name a card.
You have protection from the named card. (You can't be targeted by it, and all damage that would be dealt to you by it is prevented)
How many of these do you think should be included MB, if at all? (It is definitely SB worthy at the least.)

Cabal-kun

04-12-2008, 08:53 AM

How many of these do you think should be included MB, if at all? (It is definitely SB worthy at the least.)

It has the same kind problem that Meddling Mage has. You won't really know what to name with it, and it may be too late when you do know what to name. As the deck doesn't run any discard or counters, you don't have the option of gaining the intelligence before they play something that's a threat.

I would say none main with the current deck configuration.

Oriflamme

04-12-2008, 09:39 AM

Isamaru

04-12-2008, 11:41 AM

Yes, it's the truth, and as far as boarding it - if it were to be boarded only against combo, then Orim's Chant is usually stronger.

EDIT: Though that's not saying much, since Chant is overall crappy.

georgjorge

04-12-2008, 02:30 PM

Is Shusher really not needed ? Maybe you can get CBalance with other things, but the "normal" counters - Force and Counterspell - still can get your Survival. I don't know how good your matchup against blue decks is, but being able to resolve a third turn Survival no matter how many Forces they hold sounds good.

bladewing019

04-12-2008, 02:51 PM

While Runed Halo is cool, what does it accomplish for the deck that Orim's Chant &/or Abeyance don't? Storm Combo (combo period) is already a weakness of the deck and whichever win condition isn't named will still kill us before we go off (if it hasn't already put us in fatal position by the time Runed Halo is played). There is also the concern of adding more WW cc cards to a deck that wants green & basics.

It stops goyf/piledrivers etc. that are already in play, and for multiple turns. But it doesn't seem especially powerful against combo for the reasons you listed, and because of the protection combo is running now.

Isamaru

04-12-2008, 04:16 PM

True... I was thinking in terms of Counterbalance+FoW+Daze, not in terms of Landstill... which has Counterspell and even Cryptic Command as well.

So Shusher might be helpful after all... how many can we afford to fit in the sideboard? I'm just worried that we'll have to play 3, since you can't survival for him (it would mean you've already won / resolved Survival), but that would take up too many other slots.

The nice thing about him is that he is the evolution of first having Defense Grid and City of Solitude, then putting it on a creature (Dosan), but now forcing the original card to resolve, which the others could not do, and it's a creature... which is a bonus, but a drawback in that it is removeable... The good news about the "lightning rod" argument is that it at least then distracts them from the rest of what you're doing...

dahcmai

04-13-2008, 02:38 PM

Well, Played a 21 man tournament yesterday with it and went totally undefeated. 2-0 every game except one I played for fun.

Since I didn't own a playset of loyal retainers I had to make do with what I had and went a little bit of a different route. It made for some interesting changes. I ended up going aggro with a combo if needed.

Here's what I came up with. Yeah I know I changed it a lot, but it's good for some ideas because it worked out so well.

Mana
1 Plains
5 Forests
3 Savannahs (lot of wasteland crucible action here)
1 Tundra (only for a blink enabler)
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

Mana Critters
3 Bop
1 Llannowar
1 Fyndhorn

Critters
3 Eternal witness (couldn't find my 4th, I'd add it)
2 Loyal Retainers (man, I want 2 more now)
3 Essence Warden (cut down due to lack of Retainers)
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi (MVP) Was the Extirpate and Needle target all day
2 Red Akroma
1 Squee
1 Mangara
3 Exalted Angels
1 Stonecloaker
1 Eight and half tails (my new love)

Utility

2 Moat (actually seemed kind of useless)
4 Survival
4 Swords
3 Momentary Blink (wow what a good card in here)

Anyway, the main reasons for my changes was of course as I said, the lack of Retainers. So I knew my combo was unstable at best with only 2. Here's an explanation of what I changed.

Exalted Angel - I decided to push more on that Akroma trick and went with Exalteds since she is perfectly castable anyway. Saffi will turn her over just as with the red akroma.

Momentary Blink - By and far the best addition I put in. It saved the combo several times in mid stream when I knew they packed swords. It turns over both the Angels, makes Mangara hit again, and makes Eternal witness much better. I would suggest this in your version as well considering how well it worked for me. It turned into the card that says "No!". It even saved me turns by preventing a Vedalken Shackles from taking my critters to buy a couple of turns to win. Not a good use, but it was worth it in the end.

I only have one Tundra for the Blinks, but the blink was a last minute addition anyway and I wasn't sure how good it was going to be. I ended up only using the flashback a couple of times, but I doubt it's worth adding another Blue source since it wasn't used so often. I just fetched it up as a surprise most of the time.

Lack of Glowriders - No one in the area plays Tendrils style decks very often so I left them out. I wouldn't do that normally.

Anyway, here's how I did.

1st round. Levi playing Goblin Bidding (good build)

Game 1 - Comboed out on him early, he scooped
Game 2 - Tividar out of the board was a monster all by himself. Tividar likes Blink a lot. It was a massacre. He just walked on through.

2nd round. Brett playing standard Burn (probably got list from here)

Sorry Brett. It was bad. Real bad. He didn't have anything to stop all the lifegain. I never went below 15 or so. Exalteds took it all the way.

3rd round. Cole playing Survival / Reanimator

This was an interesting match since Cole has an infinite damage combo in there and he has been playing that deck forever and a day and knows it inside and out.

Game 1 - it all came down to swords. I swords anything I knew could make that infinite damage combo. Great Whale and things like that. It's odd being at 100,000 life and a person keeps going. Eventually the Red Akroma slips past swords and starts working. He tries to Shreikmaw it a few times but Saffi saves the day and pushes her through.

Game 2 - He boards in Crypts and Needles. I end up playing without Survivals and a graveyard. Blinks win it. Exalted goes out and goes all the way protected by blinks. I did board in Loaming shaman and had thought about blinking that also. Not a bad use for blink.

4th round. JJ playing Landstill

Strange match. I end up just pushing through Eternal witnesses and Saffi and between the two they make a beatdown force. I keep blinking them and getting the same blinks back going on and on. Not much he could do.
Game 2 was about the same thing except I have access to Krosan Grips to take care of Pernicious deeds and Shackels. Witness returned the grips via blink over and over and rode it in.

5th round. Fox playing Survival with a pile of recurring witnesses and Vindicates.

I gave him the win so he could go on and it didn't make a difference to me at this point as I was a shoe in. We played for fun.

His decks are usually odd home versions he made so it's hard to say what was in it, but I saw Crucibles, Witnesses, Vindicates, Survivals, and not much else. He did manage to beat me one game due to recurring wasteland and vindicates. What's odd is I ended up playing off of one forest one game and still pulling out of it. Damn, this deck is resilent.

Semis - Dave playing something similar to Pikula, but not quite.

Got a scare as I was hit by Thoughtseize, double Smallpox, and a crucible hit the table early. Comboed out both games after a fight for mana. Hooray for basics.

Finals - JJ playing Landstill again

Same result as the first time we played. Virtually identical. Interesting word of note is Eight and half tails is virtually immune to Shackels. Make the shackels white and walk on by.

Anyway, I am totally happy with the deck, but was sad we didn't have our usual Thresh, Meathooks, and Tendrils players today. Well, I saw the Meathooks, but he went out early. I really want to play this against Counter top Thresh now to see how it does.

I can imagine the tendrils match up is favorable given that you can just run some early disruption and combo out faster. Thorn of Amythest seems like a good fit in the board with some glowriders for that. I seem to have a lot of room in the board considering how it did today. I didn't really need to board much aside from the grips. Moat is leaving though in favor of Dueling grounds more than likely.

I am curious about the Teeg's in the board. I never used them, what was the initial idea behind him? I left the board the same as listed in this thread since I didn't know the deck and figured someone might have thought of some weakness I don't know of. I could see it for Stax, but they guy who plays that wasn't there today and I didn't see a use past that.

Also, I playtested Dredge for laughs. Loaming shaman is the MVP there. Once he's out and has reset them you just blink it here and there and walk on through. Kind of amusing.

Isamaru

04-13-2008, 06:52 PM

Well done! :smile:

I was giving Eight-and-a-Half-Tails the sideboard treatment, but he probably deserves 1x Mainboard... I thought that Exalted Angels were probably too bland (at least in the CaNGD version), but I like leaning towards Momentary Blink, perhaps strongly concentrating on a Slideless GW Slide-style variation, meaning including 1-2x Clouthresher again, and possibly a few Hierarch, even though Hierarch is pretty trashy. Besides Saffi+Witness infinitely blocking, it is nice that Blink+Witness also means the same.

Gaddock Teeg was in the original deck because the the idea of the deck was to make it so that Loyal Retainers had many secondary uses (but I suppose Red Akroma is enough of a secondary use that it doesnt matter), and also because using Cheap Legendary creatures makes Karakas that much better. Still, Teeg does stop certain things... Stax, as you mentioned, but also somewhat Enchantress, various Threshold cards such as FoW and EE... Landstill powerhouses like FoF... but in the end, it was mainly against Combo, in which case (and in the other cases as well), I could see simply upping the Glowrider count to 7, in the form of Thorn of Amethyst, of course.

I am glad to see you had the Karakas to play with, and also that you didn't give into the temptation to include a red dual land.

I am also especially glad that you resisted the temptation to mainboard Tarmogoyf, since it really doesn't provide anything but resiliency in the case that the opponent is attacking your mana base... yet, as you've shown, everything is quite resilient.

As you said, you could have included Ghostly Prison or Dueling Grounds over Moat. Though Prison and Grounds both have pros and cons, Prison seems best overall. Prison always costs the opponent {2}, even if their only creature is Goyf, unlike with Grounds, which also wouldn't let you double-block with Saffi+Witness... and in the opposite scenario, the opponent will most likely not be double-blocking Akroma/Angel anyway. I would play Prison over Dueling Grounds because Dueling Grounds don't work well with Saffi+DoubleBlock.

What do you think of Mistmeadow Witch (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=110270)? Even if she doesn't find a home in here, I simply love that card.

You did include Tivadar? Could you post your sideboard? It'd be nice to see what you felt was worth including, so we can discuss what might be needed in the future. I am considering 4x Serenity in the sideboard, since our only non-creature permanent is Survival (if it is out, you've already won) - and this would be possibly in addition to the 3x Krosan Grip. My theory is that even if it is only destroying Counterbalance and a Shackles, and forcing a Top on the top of the library, it is worth it, since it is at the worst a Drawbackless (if you dont have Survival out) Disenchant at a slower speed... yet, at best, it can completely obliterate a few of the toughest matchups: Enchantress and Stax... with side effects of raping Affinity and random other decks.

Would you agree that Genesis is not needed?

Lastly, do you really live in Traverse City? I had no idea there was Legacy in Michigan other than over at Guildhaus in Flint, and in Brighton and Garden City. Do you think you'll come to the next Flint tournament?

dahcmai

04-13-2008, 09:17 PM

Board was pretty standard since I wasn't sure what this deck was bad against so I took it at face value and just copied it from here.

3 Krosan Grip
4 Teeg
4 Goyf
2 Tividar of Thorn
1 Wispmare
1 Loaming Shaman

I will end up taking out teeg from now on though, he just didn't seem useful enough to have that 4 spot.

Goyf really didn't seem worth using either. He dies a lot more than anything else in this deck and really just plain has no synergy with it oddly enough. It's weird to say I played a deck with Green and didn't like Goyf, but it's true. Never saw a point where I wanted him.

Wispmare stays, I boarded him in a lot. I like him. Blink made him good also.

Loaming shaman is good too. He was my recurring crypt.

Tividar I think I will go up to 3 on. He was amazing as I said for goblins. As everyone knows Goblins getting the nuts hand is nothing to shake a stick at. He actually stopped that and that impressed me by itself. I had a game where he dropped a first turn lackey. I dump a birds. He drops in warchief. Then I proceed to demolish the deck with a lone Tividar? Even after 2 Ringleaders in a row? Yeah, he's golden.

I'm sure a lot of that will change since as I mentioned our local Thresh player, Tendrils player and Stax didn't show up that day. After I play those a few dozen times I'll settle on something. I tend to change things up after I see weak spots.

I went towards the blink idea since I was short on the Retainers, but I think it's definitely worth testing. They enabled me to run with Needled Survivals and crypts on the table. I actually got hit by a Haunting echoes in one game and ran just fine because my blinks were in my hand at the time. I can't stand running completely off Survival. I used to play Angry Tradewind and I know how much it relied on those.

Out of curiousity, what did you mean by temptation to include a red dual? you mean hardcasting Red Akroma? Heh, that would be rough especially with that 3 red CC. Don't see another reason. I'm a fan of basics anyway. I hate Back to Basics, too many people own them here, that and blood moons. Cheap cards mean they get played a lot.

Mistmeadow Witch seems ok, but it's too small to survive even the simple Darkblast which would be annoying. It's activation cost is also rough. 4 act is a little much for my taste. As I mentioned above, i barely had the mana to pull off a Blink Flashbacked. I doubt she would make the cut, but you never know till you try it.

Genesis isn't needed though it's nice. I think it falls into the "win more" catagory though. Oddly enough, I was wanting a Gigapede here and there to ditch extra Survivals. Makes Control matchups easy also. Might be worth a try. He was pretty amazing in my old survival deck.

And lastly yeah, I live in Traverse City. We actually have a large Legacy crowd up here. It's not even the normal trash decks you normally see. I think it's mostly because we had Pat Chapin playing here till he moved south and well, if you play against that kind of skill you get used to it. Vintage used to be the big thing until a lot of people could no longer afford the power. I guess you could say it's a netdeckers paradise. You won't find much homebrew and even if you do, it tends to be actually decent.

I don't get down to Flint much. No reason to go down there too often. We have over 20 every week anyway so it's all good.

Cabal-kun

05-12-2008, 08:22 AM

Does anyone want to work on a Blink-focused version of I Will Survive? I wouldn't object to it...

Don't you need to keep the number of non-creature cards as low as possible? I'm also trying to think where Momentary Blink would come in handy. I doubt you'll be able to use the Flashback, since you don't really run blue. Aside from protecting a key creature from removal, what are you going to be casting it on, and why?

Wouldn't Otherworldly Journey (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/37.html) be worth a bit more, since it does the same thing with a +1/+1 counter to boot?

Isamaru

05-12-2008, 10:49 AM

Were you looking through my window last night? :confused:

I just worked on the deck for about an hour last night and I used Otherworldly Journey the entire time over Momentary Blink... weird. The reason is that it was in my first deck ever - the Way of the Warrior precon. :smile:

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

// Creatures (30)
The Mana
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

The Combo
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

The Extra Legends
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

The Utility
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dust Elemental

// Non-Creature Spells (10)

3 Eladarmi's Call
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Otherworldly Journey / Momentary Blink

// Sideboard (15)

3 Krosan Grip
2 Wispmare

1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Glowrider

2 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Kataki, War's Wage / Children of Korlis?
1 Vexing Shusher / Samurai of the Pale Curtain?
1 Gigapede / Caller of the Claw?

I think Exalted Angel is unnecessary because she doesn't really have any synergy with the deck other than Blinking.

To be honest, the only reason I included Tarmogoyf in the past was because the deck's curve goes sharply from 1 to 3, so I wanted something at the 2cc slot very badly.

This is why I brought Eladarmi's Call back in. In the first versions, I figured Survival was "better"... and even though it is, you can only play 4x. Call still lets you get every Eternal Witness from your deck, or for 6 mana flash in a Dust Elemental at instant speed, or fetch 3cc silver bullets, often enabling you to secure a defense by turn 3.

I really like Chord of Calling, but it can't secure a turn 3 bullet, even though it is amazing a few turns later. It also has to be boarded out when you sideboard in Gaddock Teeg, who has now gone down to 1x because of the extra ways to find him, and because of the fact that he's not as strong as Glowrider overall at what he does. He is still useful in addition to Glowrider, however, because he works in a slightly different way (so the option is nice to have), and because being a Legend is important here. He was mainboard in the original deck because he was exactly on-color, and so great with the theme of the deck - Karakas and Retainers - but there are more important things to include.

Possible changes to this list that I see could be:

-1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails or Birds of Paradise, +1 Mangara of Corondor
-1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, +1 Stonecloaker
-1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, -1 Dust Elemental, +2 Stonecloaker
-1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails or Gigapede, +1 Cloudthresher (And then -3 Birds for +3 Elves)

Birds of Paradise can pay for the flashback in Momentary Blink, but otherwise, Otherworldly Journey just seems so much better (and the art brings back a lot of memories), and can double as removal against Dreadnought and Sutured Ghoul, among others.

Cabal-kun

05-12-2008, 11:14 AM

Were you looking through my window last night? :confused:

The Great Eye is ever watchful.

But back on topic, there's still one problem I have with the deck. It has very little in the way of protecting its combo. I can remember from MtGSal Legacy #3, the deck couldn't race Faerie Stompy, and DiF's UWb Cunning Landstill utterly crushed it.

I'm wondering if there's any way to add more protection to the deck. Something in black? Like Augur of Skulls?

Isamaru

05-12-2008, 11:43 AM

You know I love Augur of Skulls. :smile: and Saffi tricks abound.

I worry that including black would tempt people (even... us!) to include 1x or more Crypt Champions, and he seems really wrong. People might also start trying to include junk from Dirt/Doran decks like Vindicate and Deed... or even Doran, which are also all wrong.

I suppose -3 Otherworldly Journey -1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, +4 Augur of Skulls wouldn't hurt the deck, but after that, I'd want to find room for discard #5-6 / #5-8.... and when Augur is used in conjunction with other discard, it is best when it is Hymn to Tourach, since you simply go for quanity over quality.

However, we won't be able to get double black, so we are forced into the quality over quantity route with Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize/Blackmail. (Or we can use Augur + Chain of Smog or something, sticking to quantity over quality in a splashable consistency).

1. Is it worth the splash and mana base troubles for half-baked protection?
2. Where does the room come from?
3. Which discard spells should we use, exactly?

At the same time, if it is just those two specific problems, I think Otherworldy Journey, and Dust Elemental and/or Stonecloaker can improve the Faerie Stompy matchup (if you pull off an Akroma, you should win), while we simply accept that this deck cannot beat Landstill. Many decks can't beat Landstill.

B0W53R

05-12-2008, 03:13 PM

I think black offers some much needed protection(half-baked as it may be). Being able to secure an early survival, protect your game plan, or disrupt theirs is something this deck struggles with. I don't think Augur is fast enough sadly, but Shriekmaw offers some protection, a backup win condition and Saffi jank too!

Mana base (21) may need some tweaking

4 Bayou
4 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta (maybe sould be Wooded Foothills)
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (27)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers
3 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
3 Eternal Witness
3 Shriekmaw
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

Other (11)

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

59 Cards

Sideboard
Not completely sure about this yet but black adds Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Engineered Plague and others to our list of options.

Cabal Therpy added a nice touch by giving a sac outlet for a morphed Akroma to be reanimated via Saffi or Retainers. What should the last mystery card be?

Cabal-kun

05-12-2008, 03:20 PM

Cabal Therpy added a nice touch by giving a sac outlet for a morphed Akroma to be reanimated via Saffi or Retainers.

If you don't have a Survival, you can also use Cabal Therapy to force yourself to discard a legend from your hand to reanimate. It helps you get creatures into the yard, whereas before you had to rely exclusively on Survival. But that's a minor point.

What should the last mystery card be?

The 4th Cabal Therapy?

scrumdogg

05-12-2008, 04:25 PM

Let me say this again...slowly....so people understand, the way you beat slow board based control is Genesis, especially if they don't have yard hate Game 1. And it is slow control, they have real difficulty beating you in 3 games. Aether Vial also goes a long way, unless they play Deed as a board sweep, but even then it is a matter of timing (and Games 2 & 3, if you get there, they're having to play around Krosan Grip greatly assists your plan). Ironically, I'm dropping the Tarmogoyfs to go more balls to the wall on the combo (adding 3 more Wardens and a Loaming Shaman to complement the 4x Auriok Champions in my red red red metagame) and dropping the black I had added. This deck can't afford enough relevant discard to make it stand up to board control or combo and already plays white. We just gained Vexing Shusher (which should be an automatic 4-of in the SB against decks which think blue is useful against us...although Shusher truly wants Rofellos & Anger to come out & play, but that is entirely possible) and we already have access to Orim's Chant & Abeyance. I'm very excited about Shusher for the Threshold, MUC & Landstill matchups, especially with Vial & Rofellos/Anger. Which leads back to mana discussions, namely the Taiga. With a GWr configuration, Taiga is exactly what I want for both Anger (which makes everything in the deck better, especially Akroma, Angel of Not Getting Shanked by STP) and occassionally flipping or hardcasting Akroma (very occassionally, I admit, Scryb/Quirion Ranger would aid in this immensely...if room could found...).

The difficulty lies in which confiuguration & what specifics. I love Witness to death, but I've cut it back to 3x as it is less important than the combo or win parts and in a long game (where it really shines) I will get access to one. Even better, if I can get SotF online, I will get it AND Genesis. SB always drives me nuts, unless it is for a specific known (local) metagame, although even in small, local metagames, Legacy has so many viable and interesting decks that you can't truly be completely prepared, just have a plan. I love it when a plan comes together.... My thoughts are leaning toward 4x Shusher, 4x Chant, 4x Abeyance and 3x <blah>, <blah> probably being defined as either graveyard hate, probably Crypt versus such terrifying beasties as Dredge, recurring destruction/wincons from Landstill, Dreadstill (damn you Academy Ruins), Loamish stuff, Survival, or more utility (always an attraction with a SotF deck, but often dangerous as well, given that the utility often relies on the SotF to be most effective or dilutes your creature base) or possibly radical anti-hate hate. Specifically I'm considering 3x Living Wish in the SB. Before you douse me in gasoline & erupt, let me explain. I often find myself siding out the 4th of the combo pieces (or 2x of a particular piece) anyway in a number of matches, but more importantly, the local yokels have discovered that Extirpate is the answer of choice in Games 2 & 3 for disrupting my combo. And I gotta agree, it is wicked effective to have either Saffi or Retainers suddenly NOT there period. This deck is much less effective without them...especially if I take out Goyfs. However, they don't seem to get 2x Extirpate in time & board sweepers have either already been baited/dealt with or they have such an overwhelming advantage that the games in probably a loss anyway. I'm going to test the Living Wishes at some point but thoughts & discussion would be appreciated as well as debate on the merits of GY hate vs Utility vs Wishes vs ???

Vetinari

05-12-2008, 04:25 PM

while we simply accept that this deck cannot beat Landstill. Many decks can't beat Landstill.
Why not run some Vexing Shushers then?

Cabal-kun

05-12-2008, 04:33 PM

Why not run some Vexing Shushers then?

Because Shusher doesn't help against board effects (Deed, E.E., Humility, etc) or removal (StP, Blood, Edict, etc) that much. Sure, you can say he acts like a lightning rod, but how far can you push that?

scrumdogg

05-12-2008, 04:51 PM

Because Shusher doesn't help against board effects (Deed, E.E., Humility, etc) or removal (StP, Blood, Edict, etc) that much. Sure, you can say he acts like a lightning rod, but how far can you push that?

What he allows versus board sweepers is for Survival to be forced through the accompanying counters, which if you do so properly, means Genesis & Squee in yard, Witness in hand, ready to rinse-lather-repeat until the control player gets run out of no. And Shusher is fantastic against Edict & Blood, as you would much rather lose him than combo pieces, while still forcing them to play the removal because they can no longer counter your combo (and removal not aimed at your combo critters, I think we can agree, is a good thing).

Isamaru

05-12-2008, 05:39 PM

Just played vs. Landstill. It's the only deck I ever play against on MWS.

I went second, but dropped 2 Birds of Paradise and 2 Essence Wardens by Turn 2.
He drops land for 3 turns, and on turn 3, plays EE at 1 threatening my 4 creatures.
I untap and draw, then end my turn. He blows up the Explosives.
In response, I play Dust Elemental and save every creature except for 1 Warden.
He draws Swords to Plowshares because he is a gem.

Nevertheless, I replay everything out again over the next few turns and go to 37 life. He plays 2 Counterspells on Mangara and Saffi, and is completely out of cards when he Cunning Wishes for a Pulse of the Fields.

I have two Wardens out and I play Eternal Witness bringing Saffi back.
He untaps and draws a card. It's Pernicious Deed and he deserves it! My top card was Loyal Retainers, but apparently inertia is a property of matter.

The lesson to be learned here is that Shusher would not have helped, but Eladamri's Call for Caller of the Claw would have.

Currently I am trying -3 Journey/Blink +1 Mangara +2 Wall of Roots / Sakura-Tribe Elder. Wall of Roots help out Dust Elemental, while Sakura might help vs. Board control.

I like the deck how it is, but I think I either need Garruk or Harmonize (neither work with Gaddock) to prevent me from running out fuel.

Vetinari

05-12-2008, 06:24 PM

Why not Wall of Blossoms instead of Roots if card draw is needed?

EDIT: speaking of draw engines and board control, Masked Admirers might be worth a look.

EDIT2: this deck is really exciting and I just can't stop thinking about it. Another interesting engine is Life from the Loam + Genesis while also having nice synergy with Canopies (maybe even throw in some cycling lands for more draw) and Witnesses.

@Garruk or Harmonize: why not go back to Sylvian Library then?

Isamaru

05-12-2008, 06:47 PM

-3 Eladamri's Call, -3 Blink/Journey, +4 Heartwood Storyteller, +1 Land, +1 Elf

This leaves only 4 noncreature spells (the Survivals) and 35 creatures, meaning his effect will only be giving you cards.

My only problem with Heartwood Storyteller is that he costs 3, and I want that slot to cost 2. The curve will suffer otherwise, so I am considering 2x Sylvan Library / Sensei's Divining Top + 2x Renewed Faith / Abeyance or something, but I am just throwing ideas out there.

Ohran Viper has the same problem as Heartwood Storyteller, it costs 3. Yavimaya Elder too... While Harmonize, Masked Admirers, and Garruk accomplish something different.

My goal is to add a bit of draw/utility to the 2cc part of the curve. Eladamri's Call was helpful, but it can't get land if necessary. Living Wish can, of course, but I am not willing to only play 3 Retainers 3 Saffi mainboard, and waste 4 slots of the sideboard with one each of the 3 pieces and a land card.

dahcmai

05-15-2008, 01:37 AM

I fixed my problem with Landstill with an old trick I used in ATS for the same exact matchup. Landstill isn't real fond of Gigapede. Just re-cast it over and over until it starts getting that damage.

I used Genesis to get him back on the cheap when I could and he usually did the job.

Shabbaman

05-21-2008, 10:52 AM

I see an upside of Heartwood storyteller costing 3: dodging counterbalance.
Thinking of Augur of skulls makes me giggle. If you want to go that way, I'd say it's worth trying Aether vial. It might solve some of your mana base worries.

Isamaru

05-21-2008, 06:05 PM

Yes, he seems to screw with Threshold in general. ^_^

Gigapede does sound like the best option overall vs. Landstill. Right now I have 1x Sideboard, but I could see playing it mainboard, too.

I am still convinced the Black splash and Aether Vial are both not worth it... even if Aether Vial is one of the strongest cards in the format. Here, there just simply aren't enough slots / I would have to take out Heartwood Storyteller for them.

Shabbaman

05-23-2008, 05:12 AM

Vial does give you more flexibility of course, letting you dump creatures into play at leisure. Worth testing I'd say :)
Anyway, that's not why I'm here. I'm here to point you at the latest brainfart I had: Ghostway. It costs 1 more than Blink or Journey, but it does save your whole team from wrath (I know, like Dust elemental). It lets you trigger multiple CITP effects simultaneously.

EDIT: Turn to mist does the same thing as Ghostway, but for 2 mana and with a single creature.

robby

08-27-2008, 02:17 PM

Sorry to necro this thread, if this counts as that. I really like this deck. I have played against it once on MWS and was completely suprised how well thought out it was for a deck I had never seen. Has there been any recent updates to the list?

Isamaru: Are you the Isamaru that lives in MI?

Isamaru

08-27-2008, 03:00 PM

Yes, have we met before?

Rush

08-27-2008, 09:19 PM

Good job Isamaru! Thanks for redirecting me to this thread. I feel a bit like an ass now. He mentioned this deck, but I couldn't find it in the boards. Anyway, a few questions. Why did you drop the Asmira? What is your control match-up? Is it good enough that Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is completely unnecessary?

One last comment: Why were you ever considering Samurai of the Pale Curtain?

Isamaru

08-27-2008, 10:13 PM

Eh, sorry I took out most of the agression out on you.

Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is good, I think I want to keep 1-2x in for a while, but I haven't done much testing in real life...

I'm finding that I lose games where I draw way too many elves + mana + witness + retainers and nothing else... it happens on MWS all the time.

I am still unsure about Heartwood Storyteller, as I have started really missing Swords to Plowshares...

The control matchup is probably the worst, even though it is probably fixable. I am sad to say that Eight-and-a-Half-Tails can't stop Vedalken Shackles in the same way it cant stop Maze of Ith or Karakas after the activation is already on the stack. But more often, Pernicious Deed is the main "I just lost" card.

Asmira should probably come back in, but I figured without the combo, she was merely a 2/4 Flyer that sometimes grew a bit bigger (always a 3/4 if Saffi or Retainers were to bring her back) and could be Karakas'd...

I forget what Samurai of the Pale Curtain was for... I think it was a creature-based answer to something, but I guess it doesn't do much verse enough decks that more reliable graveyard hate would make more sense.

Rush

08-28-2008, 07:45 AM

No problem Isamaru ;)

By the way, 2 quick questions: if you Blink a creature being targeted by a spell/ability, does it then become an illegal target since it left play; and, if you Blink Mangara after activating its ability, would you still remove it from the game (I would think it would "forget" it was ever in play)?

Atwa

08-28-2008, 08:25 AM

Does anyone have a recent list?

I wasn't around during the CaNG, so this is the first time Istarted to notice the deck. Can someone update this thred with the newest list, since the last one has been 4 months old.

I really like to see how Susher is intergrated in the deck.

Rush

08-28-2008, 09:45 AM

After confirming both of my original thoughts, I've come up with a new list, though I haven't had time to test it yet. Let me know what all of you think about it:

20 Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Karakas
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island

10 Non-creature:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Momentary Blink
2 Otherworldly Journey

30 Creatures:
5 Mana:
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

13 Combo:
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers
3 Soul Warden
2 Essence Warden

12 Utility:
3 Mulldrifter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Eternal Witness
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Squee, Goblin Nomad

I would assume this deck would be quite resilient with a lot of combos besides the original combo. Mangara + Blink = Remove target permanent from the game. Mulldrifter + Saffi = Draw 4 cards. Mulldrifter + Blink = Draw 2 cards. You would also be able to block with Witness, Blink Witness, and return Blink to your hand. Yes, I'm well aware I only have 2 lands that produce Blue, but it's only needed for Mulldrifter and to flashback Blink. Also, this version would not rely so heavily on Survival for the win. Thoughts?

Isamaru

08-28-2008, 11:32 AM

It looks good. It's a lot less likely to crap out (I told you I lose a lot on MWS because I just sit there and draw land after land), and I don't think the small splash will hurt much at all because of Birds of Paradise. Play 4 Essence Warden and 1 Soul Warden. Personally, I'd take one Blink out for 1x Dust Elemental.

I think Swords to Plowshares is a lot more important than I thought. There always seems to be at least 1 creature you want to remove in every game.... but I'm not sure if they should be sideboarded or if something else would serve the purpose better, or if they should be run MB 3x...

Will you be missing Eight-and-a-Half-Tails at all? I still have never had him in play yet because I was using only 1x copy on MWS. Loaming Shaman never particularly has shined when I draw him normally, but by simply having him in the deck, you get to have a mainboard out to loam and dredge (if you're fast enough), and you never have to lose the "who will deck first" game if they somehow have you in a lock after infinite life, though Mangara would probably take care of any permanent based lock...

I'd be more comfortable with these 20 land:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Karakas
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains

Or, I'd like to take Tundra and Strand out completely for +1 Foothills +1 Tropical Island... 3 Karakas seemed greedy... though it is always fun to have opponents Waste it and then just play another, or to NOT lose to D&T which I currently do.

Rush

08-28-2008, 12:20 PM

The deck didn't work out as well as I had hoped. I've pretty much just scrapped my version of the deck. If you plan on playing this sort of version, I'd suggest using Loaming Shaman in it. I really should have put it in there. Also, the deck needs more synergy.

Isamaru

08-28-2008, 12:27 PM

I think you were playing too many blink effects maybe? What do you think was the main problem?

Rush

08-28-2008, 04:15 PM

I was playing too many Blink abilities. I believe I'm actually going to drop Blink from my version of the deck.

dahcmai

08-30-2008, 01:53 AM

Well, I still play it and it's changed a little since my last post. The blink works out well for me, but I run a lot more targets for it. My deck works a little differently than the first few posted in here. I've been going more for a beat down speed path. It just kept the resiliency and core combo of the original.

So far it's won me quite a few tournaments. (20+) I also have the added benefit of not caring about control much. I don't board for them usually. Mana seems a little low, but so far it hasn't been a problem.

The thing I like about this version is it can go about winning in totally separate ways depending on what you are playing against. If it's goblins or some other such aggro, just go infinite. Against control, you go speed and overpower them with redundancy.

Survival decks that can go Infinite damage so far have been the worst match up oddly enough. Well, that and combo decks of course. I have to resort to the board to win against those unless they actually give me the turns, but at least the hosers are severe. You have to board heavy, but it works. You just turn into a hate deck.

I tired to get away from using Survivals and so far it's worked. I board them out here and there if need be. I always hated how Survival gets hit so hard by Needles.

The only thing is I have never strangely enough ran into a Thresh deck. I've ran into (weekly) Dragon Stompy , Landstill, Faerie Stompy, White Stax, Salvagers combo, TES, Belcher, plenty of Survival builds, Meathooks, Goblins, Eva Green, and a bunch of other random stuff. You'd think with such a high powered meta, I'd hit a Thresh deck.

I feel confident against everything, but those damned Belcher decks. Man, I hate it when they just go off first or second turn before you have a chance to do anything. Dragon Stompy can suck if they land a Magus before I have a chance to fetch up that Plains.

Anyway, here's what I have been using.

Mana: 20

1 Plains
5 Forest
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas

Critters: 30

3 Birds of Paradise
1 Llannowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Eternal witness
4 Loyal Retainers
3 Essence Warden
2 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mangara of Corondor
3 Exalted Angel
2 Eight and half tails

Utility: 10

3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Momentary Blink

I've been trying out a random Reveilark, but he's probably going to go to the wayside. It seems good, but he's so expensive.

Side:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Wistmare
3 Dualing Grounds Has been amazing vs Meathooks, ETW, Goblins, and such.
2 Runed Halo Vs other combo like Belcher
2 Rule of Law vs Storm

Isamaru

08-30-2008, 05:04 AM

Looks good. I think Pithing Needle is probably a better board card than I thought, and Swords to Plowshares are just a necessary evil.

How has Eight-and-a-Half-Tails been? Any good plays or stories to tell? :smile: Would they be better or worse as Mangara #2 and #3? (I think those are the 2 spots they're competing with.)

Willoe

08-30-2008, 07:23 AM

I don't know anything about this deck, but isn't it overkill to play 2 akroma, angel of furys? I mean, do you want to see them outside of fetching them with Survival?

Is this true for Exalted Angels too?

And should this deck be playing mainboarded Tarmogoyfs, like other Survival lists?

How about some utility like Harmonic Sliver to deal with Counterbalance, or is that card never a problem?

Hmm, since creatures are your main strengths, have you considered Living Wish? It could give you either combo piece that you need for the combo under a pithing needle.

Maybe this sounds all too lame, but this is just suggestions :)

dahcmai

08-30-2008, 12:39 PM

It seems like overkill to play that many angels, but they have worked out well at that number. Usually, I don't rely on Survival like I mentioned. I didn't want to get into the habit of having to mulligan to one every game. It's also handy to just run people out of removal quickly by being able to spam them with threats. I don't mind since I can just play them as a morph and flip them easily with Saffi, Blink, or discard Akroma to Survival and return her with a Retainer. I actually would like another Akroma, but 2 seems to be working so far. She's just a beast so I want her out right after a Exalted draws a swords.

Eight-and-a-half tails was an mvp for things like Shriekmaw on Akroma. He stops pretty much anything that's going to kill her and can sit and block most anything that tries to race. Wraths are rarely played around here.

Tarmogoyf sounds like it should be good, after all he's a monster in anything that's green, but he just plain has no synergy at all in here. There's no way to return him and I don't discard much of anything short of a creature here and there. He just seems subpar compared to third turn swings with one of the angels. I had him in my initial build, but eventually he went to the board since he always got boarded out, and finally was tossed since I never seemed to want him in any situation.

Pithing Needle isn't a big deal. That's one of the decks strengths. Name survival and I smile. I rarely use the Survivals. Survival is only there because it is dangerous as hell if you're going to let me have an active one out. I might blow a Needle up if you named Saffi. I don't like them on Saffi at all. Otherwise, it's a pretty bad card to board against this.

I board Needle myself just for Counterbalance really. Taking out the Tops makes it pretty useless other than odd topdecks. The mana costs are pretty weird as is. It was another reason I was trying out the Reveilarks. The cost was a bad spot for them to hit. We only have two Countertop style decks here, one with moat and counterspells and another with Imperial Recruiters, Painters Servants, Grindstone. So far, haven't had to much problem unless the one combos out fast. The control deck doesn't seem to be able to deal with this deck well. Runed Halo does work on Grindstone which is amusing.

I have had Harmonic Slivers in and out of the board. I like him a lot and I keep tossing the Wispmare and Grips back and forth for them. That's a personal choice I guess. Actually, I think if I pulled that deck out right now it has 3 Harmonics in the board.

I'm kind of surprised you went up on the number of Mangaras. I kept thinking he was too slow. Sure you get a nice remove from game effect, but man, I hated waiting for summoning sickness and I just couldn't bring myself to try getting an Anger online. That 4th color just seemed like stretching it.

If there was a white or Green card that didn't suck that could give haste, I might try it. I board him out a lot since I hate how slow he is. He stays in the deck because he's so randomly dangerous. If someone is running out of answers and he pops up, it can be a lock out. I've never wanted him early though. He working out for you? I may be trying to play him at odd times or something.

And lastly, Swords, yeah. I couldn't see myself taking those out for much of anything. The day you do, you run into something you need a swords for. Never seems to fail.

So my questions would be how are you guys dealing with combo? That seems to be my biggest problem. Game one is almost an auto lose. This deck can't out combo those dedicated ones. How are you doing against Threshold. I haven't had a chance to play against that. I take it that's why the comments about Loaming Shaman came up. Dredge surely isn't a problem. Go Saffi.

Isamaru

08-30-2008, 04:59 PM

Threshold won't be a problem because 30+ creatures are way to many to deal with with 3-4 Daze + 4 FoW + 3-4 Counterbalance, and most of the threats are 3cc+, so I wouldn't even really worry about counterbalance.

I thought Needle was vs. Belcher. I thought you brought in Needle and Dueling Grounds and then in the time it bought you (it should by you at least like 5 turns until they find a spare Burning Wish + enough mana to cast it and a destroy spell) you could have time to go infinite.

For Storm combo (remember: infinite life wins here), I just stuck with 4x Glowrider and 1+ Gaddock Teeg in the side board. I figure turn 2 is just going to have to be early enough, otherwise they deserved to win. Glowrider also gives a ton of decks I've seen fits, and doesn't affect us at all (like Heartwood Storyteller)... I usually also bring them in vs. control... I don't know if that's bad.

For other combo, usually the deck is pretty junky if it can truly deal infinite damage, but if it is something like Salvagers or Painter's Combo, the sideboard should be enough. Any "other" combo almost always includes 1 piece that is hit by Pithing Needle, or at least Krosan Grip, or StP.

Thinking back, have you had any need for Pianna, Nomad Captain (but then play Ghostly Prison over Dualing Grounds, etc. and change the strategy a bit) or Asmira, Holy Avenger (again)? :smile:

About Mangara... Mangara started at 1x in here, as a mainboard way to deal with something that would prevent you from winning (like a Solitary Confinement) after you went infinite... Harmonic Sliver does the same thing, but is sometimes just plain dead, and doesn't have all the tricks Mangara does. (Yes, you definitely don't need Anger.) The upside to 3x Mangara is that "being slow" doesn't matter so much anymore, because he is there (probably drawing fire) so early, and is a ton more disposable then.

I am almost surely playing 3x Akroma, because I want to see one every game, especially against aggro or control/Threshold. (The Academy Rector scenario). There are 11 cards that can flip her (not including Survival tutoring).

Even though Reveillark might be nice utility, I think Genesis is better vs. control, and vs. anything else, the space it takes up would be more useful as something else.... like Cloudthresher, for instance. I still always love the idea of Cloudthresher.

Are 3-4x Oblivion Ring better than StP in this deck, since we'll almost always have the mana? It's certainly 3-4x mainboard answers to counterbalance if you really fear that, and it removes a ton of problematic things like Vedalken Shackles, anything standing in your way of winning, etc. Then again... I think Mangara really is better?

In my deck, 3x Swords to Plowshares are enough because of Eternal Witness. There are also 3x Karakas + 2 Mangara + 1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, so I am confident that I will be able to block creatures indefinitely, and I will only be wanting the Swords to Plowshares to remove utility creatures that won't be entering combat, especially Dark Confidant.

I am still playing almost exactly what I was before:

// Lands (20)

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand

4 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Plains

3 Karakas
1 Tropical Island / 1 Forest (if you have 4+ mana, it usually means you have a BoP anyway)
0 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures (30)
Mana
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
0 Llanowar Elves / 0 Fyndhorn Elves

Combo
4 Essence Warden
1 Soul Warden
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Loyal Retainers

Legends
3 Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Utility
3 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dust Elemental

// Non-Creature Spells (10)

3 Swords to Plowshares / Eladamri's Call
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Momentary Blink

// Sideboard (15)

2 Krosan Grip / Harmonic Sliver
2 Wispmare
3 Pithing Needle
4 Glowrider
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ghostly Prison / Dueling Grounds

For a 3x Mulldrifter version or 3x Exalted Angel version, I'd take out the 3x Swords to Plowshares OR 1 Akroma, Angel of Fury, 1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, 1 Mangara.