[Deck] Welder Survival - RGw Survival Aggro

[Finn]

Hey, y'all
Lemme introduce myslef: I am an oldschooler in a big way in this game, and I am way excited about this new format - that's why I am here.

Anyway, there is a 1.5 (or whatever it's called) tournament coming up locally on Sept 25, and 1st prize is a mox sapphire, decent condition. Well, I intend to win!

I am looking to improve this deck, and I would not be averse to pitching it entirely if testing shows that it blows chunks. However, I would rather have a slightly underpowered deck and come in second than win with something thought up by someone else. So please help me without trying to fit this thing into an existing archetype. Thanks in advance. Without further ado, here is my raw deck in its 1st build:

*Updated 02.04.05*

green, 12

1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Survival of the Fittest

red, 6

4 Goblin Welder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

white, 9

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mother of Runes

artifact, 11

1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Shield Sphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Bottle Gnomes
4 Tangle Wire
2 Masticore

land, 22

4 Tree of Tales
2 Forest
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland

Briefly, I need to get either Goblin Welder or Survival in play by turn 2 consistently. That way, I can fetch my favorite boys and pitch them, only to bring them in for free. Wash Rinse Repeat each turn for a control/aggro hybrid.

I understand that this deck goes a few different ways with a smattering of land destruction, some silver bullets and recursive nastiness with the welder. So far so good since Survival lets me get to my favorite stuff consistently. I am wondering which way to focus, or if I should at all.

I have only been able to playtest against my wife. So I am not able to accurately give results, but against some other *really good* (not great) decks, I have gone 11-2. Still, she isn't a pro by any stretch.

My local environment should be rich in sligh, landstill, goblins with and without food chain, heavy blue control, and most of all T1.5 affinity variants

My raw SB is:

4 Null Rod
4 Red Blast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Lightning Greaves????

I hope I covered all the points. Again, thanks for helping me.

-Finn

[ehKo]

Is Brawn really that good, Ive never seen it played before.

You mentioned sly will be at the local tourny, that is bad news for you. Won't they just do an Irish Jig on your face?
X Baloths/Feeders should go in the board, if you like living.

You are only running 10(aside from sacs) sources of colored mana, some which is painful, or do you intend on keeping the artifact lands in play? Why just 2 Ports, early game it slows your plays and late game it really shouldn't matter.

I'm going to sleep i'll make some more suggestions later.

[jeremys]

I'm probably not the most qualified to help here but I have a few thoughts.

Having to rely on 2 cards to win is probably not the best idea. Welder dies to any sort of removal (consensus seems to be there's going to be a lot of that) and with lots of decks likely to be packing artifact hate in the form of naturalize or disenchant both your artifacts and survival will be in danger.

In general focusing your deck is a good thing, decide on what you want it to do most, cut out what doesn't fit and try and add some redundancy so if you can't get your one or two key cards in play you still have a shot at winning.

I'm not sure what decks you've tested against but you might want to browse the more popular ones in the non-developmental forums. See how your deck fares against those and what matchups you might want to improve.

Hopefully that helps a little. If not, there's plenty of people more knowledgeable than myself here.

[Zilla]

I suggest doing a search for TnT (Tools 'n Tubbies). Conceptually it is very similar, using Survival to search for threats and get artifact fat in the yard, then using Welder to return them to play. It's an older archetype that abused Mishra's Workshop in addition to Survival and Welder, but it may give you a jumping-off point.

[Finn]

Thanks so far guys.

Godzilla, I took your advice and actually found another recent post about a similar deck. You may want to merge it with this if you all do that sort of thing.

Changes - I think I will have to do some of the following:

need

1. Xantid Swarm
2. A cheaper way to kill Wretches - Flametongue Kavu or possibly *gulp* Aeolipile
3. I may add Bosh, I tend to have mana to spare, and this can really speed the kill up
4. Something against sligh (see below)

considering removing

1. one of the Squee's - I tend to only need one since the creatures I fetch I want in the yard anyway
2. mana supply - this is the biggest issue right now. I initially thought that I would be able to deprive my opponent of mana resources if the game got long. I could use a combination of Ports, Wastelands, and Sundering Titans to clean the place up, but I can't seem to get a read on if that is the way to go. I have not had any problems dispatching opponents quickly as of yet. When I lose, it is because I can't get the right mana in time. (I will be testing against more appropriate decks this weekend).
I guess I could remove all the ports in favor of, say the red-white painland ( I am worried that the Titans will bite me in the butt if I go Plateau) This brings me to my next question:
Should I worry about my Titans killing my lands or not? I have very little experience with this. I hate to have to abandon all my land types for painlands, but I will do it if I have to. Whatdya think?
3. Vs. sligh - ouch! Well, I will need something. You ppl were right on this one. Anodet Lurker, Onulet, Spore Frog, Spike Weaver (or feeder even). With Genesis in the Yard, I should be able to get even non-artifact boys back out time and time again, but pyroclasm is likely to be my only cleaner unless somebody thinks of something cool.

BTW, as for keeping ol' welder alive, I am hoping that Glory will do the trick. I think it will, but that remains to be seen. However, if someone kicks out my only Survival, I will have to top deck another or use Eternal Witness to retrieve it. That might be tough. edit...oh yeah, I have enlightened tutor for this. It should be enough.

Again, thanks for all the advice so far.
Keep it coming if you can.

-Finn

[Peter_Rotten]

First, about a year ago, Nick S. and I used to play 1.5 TnT quite a bit, so we have some insight for you.



ditched one of the Squee's -
The right move.

2. mana supply - this is the biggest issue right now. I initially thought that I would be able to deprive my opponent of mana resources if the game got long. I could use a combination of Ports, Wastelands, and Sundering Titans to clean the place up,
Ditch the Ports. I'd even consider ditching the Wastelands. Not like you need to kill Bazaars or Workshops - just duals. The point of this deck is to cheat in fat via Welder. To drop fat in the yard, you must use green mana; you want as much of that as possible. By playing all forests (or dual forests) you gain access to Rofellos Insane Mana Elf. You may even be able to hardcast your fat.

Should I worry about my Titans killing my lands or not? I have very little experience with this.
No. You weld in Titan and lose a land or two and the opponent loses one or two also. But, they have a 7/10 to deal with! With Welder in play, who cares about much of your land.

3. Vs. sligh - ouch! Well, I will need something. You ppl were right on this one. Anodet Lurker, Onulet, Spore Frog, Spike Weaver (or feeder even).
Sligh used to give us fits. Here are the most effective tools to combat sligh: Wall or Roots and Spike Feeder. The Wall blocks their stupid goblins, keeps some burn off your head and accelerates. Turn 2 Spike Feeder is a house against Sligh. Genesis recursion of the feeder should win the game. Also, feel free to rip off D's Dense Foliage tech from ATS.

Other tips:

1. Ditch Glory and Brawn. If you are worried about blockers, play Phyrexian Colossus. He is the original TnT house.
2. Play Quirion Ranger. He untaps Colossus, Rofellos, and Welder. He is just stupid in the deck.
3. The replica's are slow. You may want to consider running the more traditional Uktabi and Lyrist.
4. Your game against control will not be too bad. You may want to ditch Xantid for another Witness. I am rarely disappointed with drawing a Witness.
5. Belcher is going to give you fits. You have essentially nothing but your board to disrupt it.

Look at the ATS thread in the Open Forum for more ideas.

[Finn]

Peter, I read up on the decks you spoke of, and I did a lot more playtesting.

First of all, I have decided to use a single null rod main deck even though it hurts me. This is to knock affinity on its a$$. I am considering p[itching the mindslaver. I have discovered that I never actually have 6 mana. I keep returning Titan, so we are both at a loss. I barely have enough to activate Bosh. That's all good and fine. I have to admit that I did not even try the Eternal Witness. I never seem to need anything out of the graveyard that I can't already get. Still, I am seriously considering a couple, perhaps in exchange for the Mindslaver. Also, I maindecked a single spike feeder. I have a single xantid swarm in the maindeck.

-You were right about the ownage of control.
-I smack affinity around handily
-I STILL have not faced a good sligh build (I beat up some bad ones)
-Charbelcher IS an issue, although I have not yet faced it either.

I wonder if I should pack a single chalice in the maindeck. I think that a deck with this much search capability, diversity is possible. Lemme give y'all the latest build:

green, 13

1 Genesis
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Spike Feeder
2 Viridian Zealot

red, 6

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Welder

white, 5

1 Glory
4 Enlightened Tutor

artifact, 15

1 Null Rod
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Bosh, Iron Golem
2 Myr Retriever
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Chalice of the Void

land, 21

2 Quicksand
2 Wasteland
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Brushland
2 Karplusan Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales
1 Great Furnace

SB:

3 Xantid Swarm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Pyroclasm
1 Quicksand
1 Wasteland

Lemme know what you all think

-Finn

[Bastian]

The idea for a TNT deck is cute, but is it really better than the R/G survival deck like the one John Lacasse played a while ago?

The format is going to be filled with better aggro decks, like Madness with 4 LEDs, and cheap artifact hate wether it's really necessary or not.

Either way I have thought about it as well, and this is what I would possibly play:

TNT - TOOLS N TUBBIES
1 Wonder
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
1 Masticore
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tangle Wire
1 Chalice of the Void

4 Lotus Petal
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Ancien Den
2 Forest
2 Tree of Tales
1 Wooded Foothills

I'd like to play moxen, but Mox Diamond requires a land to be discarded and so it's really not helping on establishing a mana base.
Chrome Mox, although far better than the Diamond has too little colored spells to imprint with. The solution, although I don't like it very much, is to pack Petals. They don't have the drawbacks of the moxen and they allow me to play some artifacts/enchantments to tutor for.

Even so the deck feels quite weak and if you want to abuse Goblin Welder I'd suggest trying the new Stacker deck presented on another thread.

[juventus]

//0cc
4 Mox Diamond
//1cc
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger- just has overall good synnergy
4 Goblin Welder
4 Enlightened Tutor
//2cc
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - a house, is almost always "free" the turn you play it, and it pays off for every other turn.
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Null Rod
1 Myr Retriever
//3cc
1 Spike Feeder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Eternal Witness - must have in any survival deck
1 Crucible of Worlds
//4cc
1 Anger
1 Flametongue Kavu
//5cc
1 Genesis
//6cc
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
//8cc
1 Sundering Titan
1 Bosh, Iron Golem
//Xcc
1 Chalice of the Void
//Land
3 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tree of Tales


More content, Luca. Just posting decklists without explanations of card choices is next to useless. -Zilla

Changes:

-1 xantid swarm
-1 zealot
-1 glory
-1 myr retriever
-1 crucible
-2 quicksand
-2 wasteland
-4 painlands
-1 ancient den
-1 great furnace

+2 quirion ranger
+1 Rofellos
+1 Eternal Witness
+1 FTK
+3 forest
+2 fetches
+1 taiga
+1 savannah
+3 tree of tales

(Before I say anything else I do not think that this deck shows any promise. It is far inferior to survival madness, RG Lacasse, ATS, S2k4, and RecSur) As far as nonland spells, I only changed 5 slots from your list.

I took out the unnecessary extra copies of zealot, crucible, and retriever, and I took out the completely useless cards: glory and xantid swarm. Glory is useless because it is an extra man the turn you need to dump it into your yard, and its ability is far too situational; you will be using all of your mana every turn with none left for glory's activation. Xantid swarm is useless as far as a one of because you can only get it in play through survival, and if you have a survival out, chances are your opponent doesn't have a counter in hand.

As for what I added, I added a solid mana engine in ranger/rofellos, and I added some bullets in FTK and Eternal Witness.

I also made the mana base more reliable and less "painfull".

[Anusien]

There is a TnT Thread, but briefly, here's my (updated) list:
//NAME: Tools 'n Tubbies
// Tools
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sylvan Library
3 Blood Moon
// Tubbies
4 Goblin Welder
4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Duplicant
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Bloodfire Dwarf
// Mana
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Karplusan Forest
2 Forest
1 Tree of Tales
1 Great Furnace
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Naturalize
SB: 4 Dense Foliage
SB: 1 Platinum Angel

One sideboard slot is open. I'm going for the Welder kill almost exclusively, which is why I need the REB main to stop countermagic. I've changed out the two Ornithopters to up the Su-Chi/Juggernaut count, but I'm not sure that's the right move because artifact lands aren't tutorable. Trying to get some testing in now... AIM LordKiev if you can help.

And I thought my deck was a Survival/TnT hybrid. Because I run so few lands, I don't try and tutor out FtK or creatures like that. I think the manabase may be too susceptible to Wasteland to try and hardcast creatures like that without devoting a lot more slots to mana.

[Bastian]

Why even bother? Besides being speculative it's a loss of time to try to build a deck based on a card that has already found a niche in similiar, better decks than this one?

[Finn]

Bastian, thanks for the advice, but I really don't want to make someone else's deck. That's why I am using this forum, and not the one for established deck archetypes. As for your ideas, Juggernaut will certainly not be in the deck, as it is neither cheap enough to force out first turn nor big enough to warrant a welder to fetch it. Furthermore, I would not use lotus petals over mox diamond because the diamond works so very well with the welder. Finally, I certainly will not be using Wonder in a deck with no Islands.

Juventus, you got it right with Xantid Swarm, and I relegated it to the sideboard. After a few more games against some better sligh, I have found the need for a couple of Eternal Witnesses, so I have made room. I think I will stay with Quicksand and Wasteland, however, since a traditional mana curve is not terribly important. After a point, I only need a few mana each turn. Plus, with Crucible, these cards are quite useful. I am not saying that I am definitely right. I am saying that I need to be hit over the head with the reasons why these cards don't belong. I would love to use 4 Taigas and Savannahs, but alas I only have 3. I should beg/borrow some I suppose. I looked for those other decks you mentioned. ATS looks pretty good, but this isn't that deck.

I don't really know what to do.
??? :(

[Bastian]

Ops, I forgot Wonder only works if you control an island. Always forget about it :p

Isn't Rofellos rather counter productive if you decide to weld Titan back into play?

[Anusien]

Bastian, thanks for the advice, but I really don't want to make someone else's deck. That's why I am using this forum, and not the one for established deck archetypes. As for your ideas, Juggernaut will certainly not be in the deck, as it is neither cheap enough to force out first turn nor big enough to warrant a welder to fetch it. Furthermore, I would not use lotus petals over mox diamond because the diamond works so very well with the welder. Finally, I certainly will not be using Wonder in a deck with no Islands.

Juventus, you got it right with Xantid Swarm, and I relegated it to the sideboard. After a few more games against some better sligh, I have found the need for a couple of Eternal Witnesses, so I have made room. I think I will stay with Quicksand and Wasteland, however, since a traditional mana curve is not terribly important. After a point, I only need a few mana each turn. Plus, with Crucible, these cards are quite useful. I am not saying that I am definitely right. I am saying that I need to be hit over the head with the reasons why these cards don't belong. I would love to use 4 Taigas and Savannahs, but alas I only have 3. I should beg/borrow some I suppose. I looked for those other decks you mentioned. ATS looks pretty good, but this isn't that deck.

I don't really know what to do.
??? :(
First off, I use both Petal and Mox Diamond to increase the probability of a turn 1 Survival, as well as wanting as many artifacts as possible (can always drop and Weld a Lotus Petal). As for Juggernaut, the trick is to Weld Su-Chi into play, and then the next turn turn Su-Chi intro Sundering Titan, and then use the 4 floating for Juggernaut (Masticore might work, but I find that I don't have enough mana to use it, and so I just use Triskelion instead. This also lets me cut Squee).

[Finn]

I thought you folks would like to know that I finished 2nd out of 43 with this deck. I lost twice to Goblin sligh. In fact it was to the same player - once in the 6th round and again in the finals. I will be posting the top 4 in that column when I get a chance. Lemme know if you want me to post my final version (which still needs tweaking for certain).

-Finn

[martyr]

Playing U for Wonder and some card drawing (Brainstorm, maybe?) might smooth out the mana and allow you a little more flexibility.

[quicksilver]

Playing U for Wonder and some card drawing (Brainstorm, maybe?) might smooth out the mana and allow you a little more flexibility.

Adding a fourth color will help smooth out the mana?

[Finn]

I toyed with adding blue or replacing white with blue, but I could not get around the need for enlightened tutor, and 4 colors is a bit trying on the mana supply.

Anyway, here is the build I took:

green
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 BOP
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Eternal Witness
2 Viridian Zealot
1 Quirion Ranger

red
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee

white
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing

artifact
2 Myr Retriever
2 Bottle Gnomes
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Bosh
1 Duplicant
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

land
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Karplusan Forest
2 Brushland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

sb:
3 null rod
2 red blast
3 sanctimony
1 spiritual focus
2 tormod's crypt
4 xantid swarm

The Titan, Duplicant, and Angel won my games for me. On two occasions, I was at negative life when I won. One opponent had Starstorm in hand, and one had Fireblast. Neither could cast it due to lack of land.

changes to come:
1. The only time I used Witnesses, it was for a land, so I will replace them with at least one more Crucible, I think.
2. The circumstances that make Quirion Ranger useful never really happen, so I am removing it.
3. Viridian Zealots are too mana intensive, I need to settle on something else, probably butt monkeys.
4. The deck needs artifact lands to swap out for an artifact in the graveyard.
5. The deck also needs some other cheap artifact(s) to swap out for fatties early on, preferrably a creature that can be sacrificed, maybe shield sphere or phyrexian furnace.

For all you naysayers, consider that I beat up a lot of good decks with this thing, and it isn't even fine-tuned yet. Furthermore, I made a great number of mistakes due to lack of practice and impatience (it's a hard deck to play), and still placed second out of 43. I think that a better player than I could pilot this thing pretty far.

I still am wanting input, so please lemme know what you think.

-Finn

[Anusien]

Dunno. I like Blood Moon over Crucible of Worlds - both deal with Wasteland but Blood Moon also has that "I Win" factor against Landstill if you can make it stick (and what, with Titan, REB in my build, Swarm, et al, you have a good chance of making it stick). However, it does pose important constraints on the manabase. Namely, the need for basic Forests. However, I don't think the deck has a good shot against something like Smennen Blue or Sui Black, or whatever they're calling it nowadays. I try and deal with Smennen Blue (or BBS) with 4 REB mainboard and 4 Pyroblast sideboarded, but that takes up a lot of slots that other versions don't have available. And how do we deal with Black? Cranial Extraction for Welder = gg. At least T1 TnT has Workshop (and no, I don't think the 2 colorless lands work. I've tested).

[Peter_Rotten]

2. The circumstances that make Quirion Ranger useful never really happen, so I am removing it.
Please don't ever do that to your deck. There exists more Ranger tricks than I can list.

Ranger can:

1. Provide a surprise blocker
2. Act as mana for a missed land drop
2a. Somtime mana wash by bouncing lands
3. Protect against Wasteland and other LD.
4. Untap birds for mana fixing.
5. Untap Welder for TWO uses! He'd be worth including in this deck just for that ability.

I'm curious about your mana base. Why go 3/3 on the forest duals? Is it simply because of a lack of duals? With more forests, Ranger grows stonger.



For all you naysayers, consider that I beat up a lot of good decks with this thing, and it isn't even fine-tuned yet.

Well, using the T8 list (43 people! NICE!) that you provided, I'm not sure that the tourney had a solid representation of good decks. 1.5 Fires? Raffinity? Bionic Elves? MBC? These are hardly archetypes that get much serious atttention in 1.5.

How does the deck fair against Fish? Belcher? ATS? Pebbles?
Pox or Poxicide? Did you run up against any StP in the tourney?

[LOLinger]

Please don't ever do that to your deck. There exists more Ranger tricks than I can list.

Ranger can:


6. Wrack Stasis singlehandedly. :D

[hrun]

Quirion ranger has so much synergy with survival decks, that dropping 'im is just stupid.

Lolinger showed me that when he beat me over the head with it.

@Lolinger: IF we wanted to hose stasis, a card just as useful would be Wall of Roots. What a beating.

[Anusien]

[Edit: Nevermind]
I took everybody's advice, and splashed White for E-Tutor, maindecking Dense Foliage, Blood Moon, Null Rod.

Here's my manabase:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
3 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Is there something better to go in the Lotus Petal slot? Considering City of Brass, more land, etc.

[Finn]

OK, lemme see if I have all the questions

Vs. combo - pretty good even B4 sideboard. The Null rod doesnt hurt me all that much. I can't use Bosh or Triskelion to their potential, but then I just use different baddies. As for the Moxen, I love a first turn land, mox, null rod drop. I usually use the first (and typically only) mox drop as welder ammo. Birds are my primary source of mana. The null rods, I can even weld in and out of play as needed. I only did it once though, as I am usually too scared. I beat a belcher in the 4th or 5th round, I can't remember which. 1st game, he did a lot of maneuvering, but he played the belcher and couldn't activate it that turn. He did not have a LED out. I killed the belcher with a Viridian Zealot I was holding and he scooped. Next game, I did that cool land, mox, null rod play on my first turn, and I cruised to beat him with creatures. Apart from playtesting, that was my only combo opponent.
Vs. Landstill: ya know, I didn't see one. I figured I would see a lot. I packed 4 wasteland main mostly because of that deck.
Vs. MBC, I didn't face one, but I playtested vs. and came out on top. Once I have a Survival out, I am usually in good shape as long as I have mountain out and Anger in the hole.
Vs. POX, again, I can't be sure since I did not play one, but black will have a time dealing with survival and mox diamonds. I just hate those withered wretches.
Vs. Fish, I saw several Fish builds, and I played a guy for fun. He beat me up. I will have to see about that.
Vs. Pebbles, well I don't know. I can tell you this though. The more colors my opponent has, the more that titan will kick his A$$. I remember pebbles using 3.
Peter, I never really considered it, but it seems that my opponents weren't all of the highest calibre. At least, if you figure that the decks we all THINK are the best actually are. The new environment is great because we really can't be sure. Still, with so many playing, the cream will rise to the top. But I played some chaf too.
I don't know about using blood moon. I mean, it would end MY game. I just can't see it.
Oh, and about the rangers...I guess I will have to take your advice, Peter. You say you have experience with this. I had figured I would be able to use it to evade my own Titan, but it never worked that way. Perhaps if I pack more than one, I would find them better.
As for killing off the welders, this happened twice. Once via deck-a-many-bolts with tormod's crypt. Damn you Drew! That was the goblin sligh that beat me. The other was vs. pure burn. This time I had Anger and Genesis in the hole, and it was a different story. 4 mana during the upkeep and it is business as usual. But you are talking about removing them from the game. How about Living Wish? I could probably do with only 3 Welders maindeck anyway, especially if I put the ranger(s) back in.
Ahh the land supply. Peter, you said it. I only have 3 Taigas and 3 Savannahs. As it happens, that is usually good with Titan in the deck. I hate not using 4, but I could easily borrow. It just seems to hurt too much when the Titan comes to town.

Next tourney for me is the second Sunday in October.

-Finn

[Peter_Rotten]

I've been taking this deck a little more seriously and wanted to give one more example of absolute Ranger nonsense. Please note that I modified the list to my liking.

Turn one - Savannah, BoP
Turn two - Tree of Tales, Mox discarding Sac land, Goblin Welder.
Turn three - Fetch Taiga (have 5 available mana), Top deck Survival and play it. (Pentavus in hand). Discard Pentavus to fetch Titan. (2 mana). Discard Titan to fetch Ranger and play it. Weld in Pentavus. Untap BoP, returning Savannah to hand, to make a Pentavite. During opponent's upkeep, untap Welder, returning Taiga to my hand, to weld the pentavite for a Titan. None of my lands are destroyed. My board looks like this ... BoP, Tree of Tales, Ranger, Welder, Survival, Mox, Titan, 4/4 Pentavus. In hand, two lands.

How can you not love Ranger in this deck?

[Finn]

actually, I tried this deck out again and found the ranger quite good - esp. to save lands using the Titan, my fav creature to weld in. Turn 3 Titan ends a lot of decks right there - and that's a pretty common occurence.
I think it was you who told me red was rough. Well, you called it. Vs. non goblin/burn I have gone 9-0. Vs. strait red, 0-4. I started using shield sphere, and that has been really good, but I am missing some critical component to keep out of the danger zone.
BTW, I am toying with a new twist. I will get back to y'all if it is worth writing about.

-Finn

[dalisimo]

has anyone considered lightning greaves? they help to protect your welders and gave give your phatty creatures haste.

also another suggestion is using the solumn simalcrum (i know the spelling is way off but you know who i mean). that way everytime you weld him in and out you can fix your mana and draw a card. not bab eh??

[hellfire1134]

if this deck runs duels then maybe anger is the card we need.

[Zilla]

if this deck runs duels then maybe anger is the card we need.
Brilliant deduction, Mr. Rocket Surgeon. There are 6 decklists in this thread, and every single one of them has Anger in it.



Edited By GodzillA on 1098495742

[Finn]

solemn sim is not a card I would likely put in my build. The deck is at its best when sundering Titan beats on 'em t turn 3. If that's going on, your not going to lose many games. The rest of the deck aims for that. Solemn is just too slow.

Greaves are a good plan, but I would hate to include them where anger is already a key component, and anger is easier to use.

What I would really like to be able to do is lose the damned white in favor of blue, but this deck does NOTHING without survival in hand at the get-go (or a suitable tutor). Brainstorm, isn't reliable for that, and intuition is just too slow.
eh, imperfection

Zilla, what do you do vs. red BTW? My board has ben mostly anti-counter.

-Finn

[Kundalini]

Most tested build of mine:

//mana
3 forest
3 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
1 mountain
4 savannah
4 taiga
3 tree of tales
2 mox diamond
4 birds of paradise
1 rofellos

//artifact creatures
1 sundering titan
1 bosh iron golem
1 platinum angel
1 triskelion
1 tetravus
1 bottle gnomes
1 solemn simulacrum
3 shield sphere

//non-artifact creatures
4 goblin welder
1 squee
1 anger
1 quirion ranger
2 viridian zealot
1 eternal witness
1 spore frog
1 genesis

//other spells
4 enlightened tutor
4 survival
1 mindslaver
1 crucible of worlds

//sideboard
1 blood moon
1 myr retriever / duplicant /masticore / other useful art.creatures
1 quirion ranger
2 naturalize
2 null rod
2 tsabo's web
1 phyrexian colossus

-----------------
card choice:

tetravus: i feel the need for a flying creature, and this one can generate ammo for the welder
3 shield spheres: early blocker and vital to search for when you have welder in play, a graveyard full of fatties and not enough mana to play anything
solemn simulacrum: seldom used, but there is nothing better to replace it
2 viridian zealots: being essentially a combo deck, you need removal (moat, humility, etc)
duplicant: i find no use of it, so moved to sideboard (possibly removing it)
mindslaver, crucible: more useful tutorable, combo tools, for the welder to play with

[Finn]

For those of you still following this thread, I am sticking with this deck. Sadly, I have found myself not taking the advice of anyone, although I tried most of it out for awhile. Instead, I have been doing alot of testing on my own. I went 3-2 last time, losing to Burn and Food Chain Goblins and beat rogue aggro-control, The Rock and Affinity last time. Here's the latest build:

Land:
4 taiga
4 savannah
2 forest
2 tree of tales
2 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

Green:
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Genesis
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Survival of the Fittest

Red:
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

White:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact:
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Bottle Gnomes
2 Myr Retriever
3 Tangle Wire
4 Shield Sphere

SB:
Null Rod
Xantid Swarm
Wasteland
Red Elemental Blast
Silent Arbiter
Viridian Zealot

[The sideboard is rather nebulous at this point. My local meta is not combo-heavy at all. I only know one person definitely going in with combo.]

notes:
This deck has become a control deck through and through. In the past, I always did well against aggro and aggro-control. I lost to burn and goblins every time, beat up combo, and didn't do so well against hardcore control (read "blue") until the sideboard.
Well, the new build beats red. We will see about the rest. I would like to be able to fit another Tangle Wire in. Also, the land supply makes me uncomfortable. I want 2 more Wastelands, and I also have to consider Back to Basics running around in sideboards.

Lemme know what you think, especially about the sideboard, and maybe some extra changes to the main to help vs. control.

-Finn

[Anusien]

I have, pardon my french, a shit load of experience with this deck, and I'm not sure control is the way to take the deck. You don't really have the tools to shut other decks down, and your fatties are much better at just going into the red zone. Also, my experience with the deck has suggested that non-basic hate is on the rise. (That and I run Blood Moon to make some of the more difficult controllish matches easier). That's why I'm very skeptical of taking a more colored creature bent. My most expensive creature I'd hardcast is the Sex Monkey. Also, you're leaving out some key tools: Dense Foliage for one, and Su-Chi for another (Mindslaver is interesting, but probably not viable for mana reasons, at least in my testing). For my decklist and reasoning: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8401
It's near the bottom. The reason is basically, turn 1 Survival, turn 2 Welder + Su-Chi & Swing for 4. Next turn, weld Su-Chi into Sundering Titan, cast Juggernaut with Su-Chi mana and swing for 12, then fetch Triskelion, clear out blockers and finish them off.

I've found that you need to keep the creature count really high. Without a good draw mechanism outside of Survival, and that you're generally emptying your hand of creatures, you need to make sure you can draw into one ASAP. That's also why Sylvan Libraries are in my build (although worst case scenario is E. Tutor for Sundering Titan).

I've considered Bosh, but I doubted I'd have the mana for his ability. How has that been for you? Also, Solemn Simulacrum was never an idea for me as a creature, because I'd rather weld something in and out that will kill the opponent.

[J.Dangerously]

Finn, I think you are moving in the right direction with this. In our metagame Welder survival has been splitting for the top spot in recent 15-20 person 1.5 tourneys. This is a fully powered environment.

While I don't have the decklist, it primarily focuses on getting the survival out, then survival for squee, anger, welder, titan.

Ttian is the dominant kill condition,m although trike can do in a pinch.

Quirion ranger provides all sorts of tricks for squeezing out more mana, as well as saving your tiaga from the titan.

Trike and duplicant act as his silver bullets.

ESG, and mox diamond help power out the SOTF. And later can be used as welder targets.

Shield sphere is there to provide coverage versus aggro.

It also runs duress to help vs the control match.

I believe he originally was running RGW for enlightened tutor, but has since taken those out.

He is toying with crucible, but doens't use the retriever at all, nor any solemns, as they were too slow for the deck. Much better just to cycle titan in and out, than solemn. Also, mindslaver isn't used, again, because titan is just big and bad enough.

[Finn]

Anusien, honestly I think you do not have any experience with this deck. Survival of the fittest covers a lot of ground. This is not that same deck you have been playing. I appreciate the input, but this will never be that deck - for better or for worse, it's entirely different. And furthermore, if it were the same deck, I would not be trying to flesh out a viable decklist, as it has already been done - by you apparently. So the useful input would be of the "consider cutting this card in favor of this one" nature, and not of the "make this apple into an orange" type. Please understand that I am not trying to flame you, I simply am pointing out that your info is diluting the focus here.

That being said, I would love to be able to replace myr retrievers with quirion rangers, but
1. I can't list all the times that those little myr have gotten me a free tangle wire or shield sphere to hold off the opponent's offense -or- been a two-for-one of the eternal witness calibre so as to card advantage my way to victory over control, and
2. rangers will keep my lands safe, but If I am swinging with sundering titan, the game is over.
In short, retrievers and rangers fill a similar role in the deck, but retrievers work if the deck is floundering (and do different good stuff if I am in business), while rangers do little if I got a bad hand.

Someone please tell me you have compelling evidence to make room for quirion rangers.

-Finn

[CavernNinja]

I must contradict you there Finn, Ranger helps out immensely if you draw a mana-light hand. The only compelling reason I see for running Ranger is the fact that it helps if you start missing land drops protecting your land from Titan is, as you said, normally quite futile because Titan is huge and is going to finish the game quickly any way. But then Ranger kicks in if you aren't going to win the game by protecting a Taiga that will keep Anger active. Against Red decks I see much less point in keeping in Ranger.

With all that said I would like to raise the point of how well you do without Survival again. I really just don't see your deck as having many options outside Surivival, and even less options outside Welder. So what do you do if your opponent plays Engineered Plague naming Goblins? What happens if your opponent plays Prescence of the Master?

[Finn]

Well, not having welder is never going to happen. Survival of the fittest means I have access to any creature. That includes Viridian Zealot and good bye to presence of the master, or whatever. With Genesis I can do it again if I need to.
As for not having survival, 4 survivals and 4 enlightened tutors makes for a lot of ways to get survival out on turn 2.
That being said, if I don't, I have to stall until I do. This actually happens a lot more when an opponent counters survival than when I simply don't draw one. That was really a problem with the early builds. In recent builds I have taken step after step to improve a survival-less game. The thing is that if you arent drawing survival, you must be drawing something. STP, tanglewire, welders, shield sphere, random little creatures all delay the game a lot or pressure the opponent. Against control decks I win without survival from time to time.

The deck isn't perfect, but there's enough going on to keep a survival-less opening seven. Whereas I used to go down to six every time this happened, I now keep almost every draw. That's a big step.

Ahh rangers. You have good reason to doubt me there. In fact, I can't even defend my position except to say that I am having success without them. As important to the deck is Eternal Witness, but again, I am having issues removing any of the remaining cards to make room. I suppose I could put one in again and fetch it with survival.

I encourage anyone to try it and find out for yourself.


-Finn