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Phantom
01-14-2008, 09:53 PM
So, I figured Black Stompy could use a new thread since so much of the info is dispersed over several threads and is often outdated. While I do not think Demon Stompy has reached the level of its red or blue cousins, I think some recent printings and revelations have raised it to the point where it should no longer be ignored.

(mods, if you disagree with this feel free to simply merge this into the old thread)

Some topics of conversation:

1) Shriekmaw - This guy is a gift from the gods for this deck and what made me sit up and start thinking about Black Stompy as a contender. He's versatile. He's evasive. He's great for our curve. He answers Goyf.

2) Dark Ritual vs. Chalice - Dark Ritual can serve as this colors Seething song only better. The problem is the anti synergy with Chalice @1. Should we drop Ritual and maintain the shell? Should we just run both and ignore the possible anti synergy? Should we banish Chalice to the board? Or should we drop Chalice completely and rely on blacks already strong disruption suite? (which leads me to...)

3) Discard - Mindscrew or Mindshatter I guess. This gives the deck an interesting and possibly devastating discard spell with great Trini synergy. I haven't tested it yet, but it looks promising.

4) Stinkweed Imp - I've never understood why Black Stompy didn't take advantage of this guy. Recursive, evasive beaters that double as removal and have synergy with Tombstalker seem sweet to me, although it may depend on the equipment count.

5) Tomb of Urami and Urborg, Tomb of Yag - Both add a little spice to the mana base and are quite versatile. Not sure about the correct number of each in a meta where Moons and Wastes abound. 2 and 3 maybe? 2 and 2?

6) Tombstalker - WAY too powerful not to run as at least a 3-of IMO.

7) Equipment - I figure 3 Jittes is a must thanks to all the life loss. Tons of other options here. Both Swords. Loxodon Warhammer. Even O-Naginita is in the mix if we nix Chalice. I guess it depends on how we fill out the rest of the beater slots. Segue to...

8) Big Negs - Not a great meta for him, but this may be the deck Phyrexian Negator can shine in. Tomb based aggro decks have always had a bit of "all-in" in them and this guy ups that quotient. I guess it depends on our removal options and your meta. I like him in theory, but we'll see.

9) Board Disruption - We've talked discard but these Stompy decks have always run permanent disruption. Chalice is on the fence (though I'm leaning towards yes) and Trini seems pretty great (though it has equally crappy synergy with ritual). Thorn of Amethyst is a good replacement for Chalice if it comes to it (for the board I guess). The one that really has me perplexed is Nether Void. Far and away the most powerful lock piece, but also the most symmetrical. The thing locks up games like no other but is also completely dead with bad board position. I like the synergy with Tomb, I just feel that that is a different deck. I just don't know here. Hopefully testing will help this decision.

10) Preboarding- Black has an interesting option which I'm not sure many people have considered. Black has access to two of the best sideboard cards in the meta (Leyline and Plague) which also happen to fit perfectly into our curve. Has the metagame reached a point where either (or both) are maindeckable (giving us some amazing preboard numbers and even more hate in from the side)? Probably not, but it's something to keep in mind.

11) Other beaters (and my thoughts):

- Bane of the Living (love it)
- Grinning Demon, Juzam Djinn, Phyrexian Scuta, Plague Sliver (like the size, hate the lack of evasion and self damage)
- Priest of Gix (I personally don't like him because unlike CoF he provides no accel and is occasionally terrible. Dropping a 2/1 down before a lock piece has never seemed that great. Perhaps in an equipment heavy build?)
- Skittering Horror (4 mana for a boltable, non evasive 4/3 with a drawback)
- Plague Spitter (slowly Wraths Goblins if they don't kill it. Not crazy about the self damage or self destruction)
- Chimeric Idol, Juggernaut, Phyrexian Totem (none pitch to Mox. Juggs interesting, but not fantastic in any way. Totem also seems decent, but not sure I want to activate it every turn.)
- Nim Abomination (meh)
- Gathan Raiders (interesting)
- Demon's Jester (even more interesting)
- Soul Collector (crappy morph cost)
- Mindslicer (huh)
- Mercenary Knight (probably worse than Raiders. Turns StP into card advantage)
- Street Wraith (maybe if it had islandwalk. Interesting though)
- Graveborn Muse (not sure. Better than Confidant here, might be too vulnerable to removal to not cost :2::b:)
- Twisted Abomination (probably too slow and way too expensive to die to bolt and not to always kill Goyf)
- Drinker of Sorrow (bleh)
- Phyrexian Rager (too much of a tempo loss for anything but equipment heavy builds from what I can tell)
- Avatar of Discord (too big a gamble even with Hellbents in the deck)
- Disciple of Malice (My own idea to fight StP hate. Too dependent on equipment as well I think)

12) Draw - I don't think the deck needs any non creature/equipment based draw. More importantly, I'm not sure there's anything great, just mediocre stuff like Arena and Scrying.

13) Recursion Engine - Recurring Nightmare. Oversold Cemetery. Volrath's Stronghold. Can this deck run any of these? Should it?

14) Other cards to consider/discuss:


- Profane Command (I like it, but it needs to be tested. Might be a windfall, might fall under the danger of cool things)
- Rend Flesh (great, great card for the deck but hopefully not necessary considering the creature base)


I'm thinking of testing something like this, should I ever find the time:

// Lands
6 [10E] Swamp (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [DIS] Demon's Jester
3 [LE] Bane of the Living

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [B] Dark Ritual
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MOR] Mindscrew
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [LRW] Profane Command
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
(2 spots open for whatever I'm not thinking of)


That's all I've got for now. Would love to hear some thoughts on any of these subjects or the deck in general.

Mental
01-14-2008, 10:33 PM
My thoughts:

Dark Ritual is too powerful not to run, as is Chalice. Both should be MB; Dark Rit is your opening play...why would you play it past T1 anyway? So fuck disynergy with Chalice.

You're list has too many 3 ofs and looks very unfocused. That said, I like what it is trying to do. Profane Command is awesome tech.

I hate Stinkweed Imp. It's inneficient and doesn't give a clock at all. So it reccurs...does it really matter?

I also think it's weird that Nether Void is being overlooked. That card is nuts IMO. In the last Demon Stompy thread, was it overlooked or overruled?

Phantom
01-14-2008, 11:06 PM
You're list has too many 3 ofs and looks very unfocused. That said, I like what it is trying to do. Profane Command is awesome tech.

I hate Stinkweed Imp. It's inneficient and doesn't give a clock at all. So it reccurs...does it really matter?

I also think it's weird that Nether Void is being overlooked. That card is nuts IMO. In the last Demon Stompy thread, was it overlooked or overruled?

@ the 3 ofs: for testing purposes mostly although we run a lot of things I want 1 of, but not 2 of.

@ Stinkweed: It doesn't give a clock by itself, but any evasive beater with a Jitte or Sword on it is an impressive clock (thanks to old school FS, I've won a ton of games with 5/5 Cloud of Faeries and Sea Sprites). It's also removal (great against decks that run few creatures like Thresh) and the recursion (which gives us some sorely lacking game against Control). Lastly, it allows us to cast TS for :b::b:. I guess I was just figuring that we run enough huge beaters that the decks that are going to give us problems will have ways to remove them. Of course this is all speculation at this point. Maybe it's not worth running without something else to take advantage of the cards in the yard.

@ Nether Void: No consensus at all was reached about this card. It was either the most broken or the most situational card in the deck. I'm going to test it in the Trini spot.

Nihil Credo
01-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Here's my argument against Stinkweed Imp: what the hell is a Stompy deck doing blocking?

You run Cloud of Faeries in FS only because of the acceleration, and Sea Sprite because it is (was) great at wearing equipment in the face of Incinerators. Each of them furthers your game plan: beat face quickly with fat and/or equipped fliers. In which world, pray tell me, does Demon Stompy's gameplan involve sitting back?

Imp is a makeshift Maze of Ith. Who needs Maze of Ith here?

Zork
01-14-2008, 11:15 PM
I've always thought that a black version of chalice aggro should take advantage of the fact that it has actual draw options, considering it has neither the explosive creatures (dragon), the aggro/disruption creatures (Magus of the Moon, Pestermite), nor the straight control (Force, Trinket toolbox) that the other colors have.

I would probably test something with max draw, max acceleration, and max disruption with more Tomb of Urami than Yawg.

Start with:

4 Graveborn Muse
4 Phyrexian Rager

4 Trinisphere
3 Nether Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Rit
4 Mox

3 Jitte
2 Sofai (or maybe a 3/2 sword split for more draw)

3 Tomb of Urami

and build from there? I think it makes more sense for black to want to draw as much disruption as possible and just keep the big beats coming. Black has no need to get hellbent for dragon, and with less disruption pieces that win you the game, not drawing cards when options exist seems like a poor choice.

But then again I'm not sure black chalice aggro is viable, so it may be moot.

Phantom
01-14-2008, 11:39 PM
Here's my argument against Stinkweed Imp: what the hell is a Stompy deck doing blocking?

You run Cloud of Faeries in FS only because of the acceleration, and Sea Sprite because it is (was) great at wearing equipment in the face of Incinerators. Each of them furthers your game plan: beat face quickly with fat and/or equipped fliers. In which world, pray tell me, does Demon Stompy's gameplan involve sitting back?

Imp is a makeshift Maze of Ith. Who needs Maze of Ith here?

Once again, don't take me as an Imp apologist (as he may be terrible), but here's my counterargument for my thinking:

- I've played every Stompy version EVER, and have blocked a ton with ALL of them. Sure, it's not the game plan, but the game plan often gets thrown out after your first 2/3 plays are stopped (through removal, counter, or whatever) while you are taking beats from a Goyf and you finally stick an Imp at 8 life.

- I used this example simply to show that the card can be a clock, but Imp actually reminds me of Sprite a bit. I won a lot of games on the back of Sprite thanks to his pro:red. All he had to do was live long enough to be equipped when his nasty weapon could take care of the killing. Well Imp doesn't have protection, he is simply resilient.

- Maze never hit anyone. Maze never carried a Jitte. Maze can't handle two Goyfs and come back for more.

Any thoughts on any other cards here?

Mental
01-14-2008, 11:51 PM
Throwing this out there - What do you guys think of Dark Confidant?

Phantom
01-15-2008, 12:11 AM
Throwing this out there - What do you guys think of Dark Confidant?

You could build something around him I guess, but my builds insanely high curve (ever flip a Tombstalker or Shriekmaw?) combined with already prodigious life loss (both Tombs) say absolutely not.

Run Graveborn Muse if you want a card every turn (why isn't turnly a word like daily?). Look at Zorks build for inspiration (who might be on to something).

Meekrab
01-15-2008, 12:14 AM
Not sure how relevant it is to this deck, but apparently the errata on Priest of Gix was removed, which means Unearth/Reanimate/Recurring Nightmare/whatever else will give you mana. Could be useful?

Illissius
01-15-2008, 01:15 AM
Just my intuition, but I think that if Demon Stompy wants a prayer of being superior to the Faerie and Dragon versions, it has to go completely balls-out on all the risky-but-powerful choices like Negator and Ritual; more Suicidal than Suicide. Otherwise, you end up with a deck that's safer, but also clearly less powerful than the other two. Stompy decks don't win on finesse. Maybe the risky choices end up sucking, but then you probably never had a chance of competing in the first place.

Other random thoughts:

- Is Mind Shatter better than Persecute? Can the deck afford to play :b::b: cards at all? (If so: Braids?)

- What about Snuff Out? Pushes your early game tempo advantage (which is basically your entire game plan), clears the way for Negator, pitches to Mox if unneeded, and you can actually hardcast it pretty well.

- There are few things more badass than a Negator with a Sword swinging on turn two. (Most of them are played by the Dragon-oriented version of this deck).

etrigan
01-15-2008, 01:37 AM
2) Dark Ritual vs. Chalice - Dark Ritual can serve as this colors Seething song only better. The problem is the anti synergy with Chalice @1. Should we drop Ritual and maintain the shell? Should we just run both and ignore the possible anti synergy? Should we banish Chalice to the board? Or should we drop Chalice completely and rely on blacks already strong disruption suite? (which leads me to...)


I toyed around with a Demon Stompy deck that aimed for Chalice @ 2, playing Dark Ritual, Duress, Thoughseize and O-Naginata. The disruption suite wasn't bad, but my unwillingness to play Jitte hurt the deck. (My creature base was something like Negator, Scuta, Juzam, Grinning Demon, and maybe Drinker of Sorrow. I dont remember.) I didn't pursue it very far.

You brought up Juggernaut. I generally dont like artifact guys in these decks, as you need all the colored cards you can for Chrome Mox. This may not be an issue for black however, as black's disruption cards are better than other colors', leading to playing less artifacts elsewhere in the deck.

Also, thinking about Juggernaut, if someone had a list incorporating The Abyss, that just might be the sexiest thing on earth.

largebrandon
01-15-2008, 07:55 AM
I don't think stuff that cost BB is THAT big of a problem. It does have (if you play it) dark Ritual AND Urborg which helps.

I think you should splash red for Magus of Moon, FtK, or whatever. It will help with the disruption. This might seem quite silly, but you could SB Big Game Hunter (yeah look him up), and pitch him to Gathan Rider, pay madness and outright kill a goyf! :)

Also, for big beaters, you have Juzam Djinn, Juzam Sliver (whatever his name is), Phrexian Scuta.

Arsenal
01-15-2008, 09:09 AM
Perhaps Guiltfeeder as a win condition? Tough to block due to Fear, outside of Bolt range, HATES on GY dependant decks (which is a fair portion of the meta), and is a reasonable casting cost. I've always liked him but never could fit him anywhere...

Shimster
01-15-2008, 09:55 AM
As I already mentioned in the last thread, I've written a rather long Demon Stompy Primer. Although it's a German one, you can easily translate it into English via Babelfish (most of the sentences make sense, the rest ist understandable due to the context). You can find it here (http://www.mtg-forum.de/index.php?s=&showtopic=30657&view=findpost&p=304935).

My current list looks like this (taken from the primer):


// Lands
10 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Tomb of Urami

// Creatures
4 Priest of Gix
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Shriekmaw
3 Graveborn Muse
2 Bone Shredder

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Winter Orb

Jak
01-15-2008, 10:15 AM
I always loved playing Demon Stompy because it was a control-aggro deck. Running a ton of accel to get the lock pieces out fast and then dropping a big beater to win. The problem with stompy decks is that they have no draw. This deck has the ability to have an awesome draw engine. Here is the list I would use.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tomb of Urami
7 Swamp

4 Graveborn Muse
3 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Skittering Horror
2 Bane of the Living
4 Tombstalker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Nether Void

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

A card that I have been giving a lot of thought about for this version, is Bog Witch. You will have dead cards in hand like additional Trinis, Voids, Lands, and Accel and this will get you the mana you need to play more critters when you have Void out. I need to start testing it, but just throwing it out there.

DieMyDarling
01-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Is Tombstalker really THAT powerful?
I mean the only card, you get into the yard of your own is the Ritual.
(ok, in the build with Hellbent he is)
When i tested the deck , i loved laying down all lock pieces ( including Nether Void) and winning with Tomb of Urami, of which i would play 3 at least.

I also liked grinning demon and Bane of the living, als they could both be played as morph ( with gathan riders it becomes even more good). If you fear the Damage or the non-evasion, run Loxodon Warhammer. I know Trample is not exactly evasion, but its still good.
If you dont run Chalice, you could think about running o Naginata as equipment.


p.s. Pls dont consider Sword of Light and SHadow , it suxx...

Arsenal
01-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Although I'd run Warhammer over SoLS anyday of the week, the fact that SoLS saves your guy from the most prevalent spot removal spell in the format cannot be overlooked so easily. Also, having some form of recursion in SoLS is nice after a Bane of the Living resets the entire board.

DieMyDarling
01-15-2008, 11:52 AM
Although I'd run Warhammer over SoLS anyday of the week, the fact that SoLS saves your guy from the most prevalent spot removal spell in the format cannot be overlooked so easily. Also, having some form of recursion in SoLS is nice after a Bane of the Living resets the entire board.

Well, after you used Bane of the Living There are 2 Possibilitys:

1. You Cleared the whole board. In that case SoLS Is useless als Recursion, cause there are no more Creatures on your Side.

2. You Killed the opponents Creatures, and you have left 1 or some big Guys.
In that case, you dont need the recursion .

Arsenal
01-15-2008, 12:00 PM
That was just one example. My point was that having any sort of recursion, after you take heavy losses from either side, is nice. The fact that it makes your guys almost unkillable in the red zone is an added bonus (+2/+2 makes the chances of your guys surviving combat far greater than +3/+0).

But Warhammer fulfills the "aggro" portion of aggro-control much better than SoLS (a card that gets better the longer the game goes on). But conversely, SoLS fulfills the "control" portion of aggro-control much better than Warhammer... and SoLS makes your guys StP proof (which is a big deal).

largebrandon
01-15-2008, 12:02 PM
That was just one example. My point was that having any sort of recursion, after you take heavy losses from either side, is nice. The fact that it makes your guys almost unkillable in the red zone is an added bonus (+2/+2 makes the chances of your guys surviving combat far greater than +3/+0).

But Warhammer fulfills the "aggro" portion of aggro-control much better than SoLS (a card that gets better the longer the game goes on). But conversely, SoLS fulfills the "control" portion of aggro-control much better than Warhammer... and SoLS makes your guys StP proof (which is a big deal).

I agree that STP proofing your dude is very important. With the +2/+2, it will be harder to burn, so SoFI isn't as needed.

Arsenal
01-15-2008, 12:27 PM
I agree that STP proofing your dude is very important. With the +2/+2, it will be harder to burn, so SoFI isn't as needed.

Also, Evoke Shriekmaw, recur w/ creature equipped SoLS is buff. Not always going to happen, but it will essentially win you the game is your opponent cannot break it. Hell, people use Volrath's Stronghold + Evoke Shriekmaw in tourney decks cuz it's so good; SoLS + Shriekmaw is 100x better as you still get your "normal" draw.

rufus
01-15-2008, 02:33 PM
It's tempting to suggest a Zombie tribal theme so the deck can be called 'Zombie Stomp', but there probably isn't quite enough there. (Scuta, Dross Crocodile, Wretched Anurid, Embalmed Brawler, Nim Abomination, Graveborn Muse...)

Zork
01-15-2008, 04:17 PM
I was looking at zombies to help fuel Muse and happened upon Nim Abomination. He fits the curve, and is non-boltable, but I'm worried about the drawback. Scuta is probably better, though.

I'm currently going to test:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
8 [MM] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
3 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [PS] Phyrexian Scuta
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [10E] Phyrexian Rager

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [LG] Nether Void
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

I'm tryin Jailer to see if it is signifigantly worse than Leyline, and I have 3 SB slots open.

zeus-online
01-15-2008, 06:07 PM
Has anyone thought about using thrashing wumpus? Should be pretty GG-ish against aggro decks...can't deal with goyf though.

/Zeus

largebrandon
01-15-2008, 06:27 PM
Has anyone thought about using thrashing wumpus? Should be pretty GG-ish against aggro decks...can't deal with goyf though.

/Zeus

If you were going to go that route, then you should rather play Plague Spitter.

Edit: A problem with the deck is that my morphed gathan riders gets bolted. I'm thinking of replacing riders with Zombie Cuthroat, as it is able to not die with bolt and is able to block things like Mongeese

rufus
01-29-2008, 02:34 PM
I've been musing on this, and it seems like Hoarder's Greed and Unmask could both be potent in a deck like this.

Zombie Stomp:

4 Embalmed Brawler
4 Nim Abomination
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Graveborn Muse

4 Shriekmaw
4 Unmask
4 Hoarder's Greed

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Chrome Mox

8 Swamp
4 Fetchland
4 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb

Of course, that's probably overdoing the life loss/draw aspect of things...

DieMyDarling
01-31-2008, 04:35 PM
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg
3 Tomb Of Urami
5 Swamp
1 Volrats Stronghold

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Nether Void


4 Grinning Demon
4 Bane of the Living
2 Silent Specter
4 ShriekMaw
1 Yukora the Prisinor

3 Jitte
3 Loxodon Warhammer


This is the list i am going to test.
I would never play without Dark Ritual or Nether void, since they are the only reasons tu run black stompy imo. This Vesion runs several morph creatures. They allways worked out quite well in previous testings. You often can play him under your nether Void, and u can confuse your opponents :P

zulander
01-31-2008, 04:42 PM
One of the problems I see with this deck is the lack of big cheap creature whereas FS and DS have a couple slots dedicated to this. Relying on equipment = not so good.

Jelmerz77
02-05-2008, 08:00 AM
I've been playing Dragon Stompy for a while now and I really like the way it works. But lately I see Dragon Stompy decks every where, which makes people expecting it and a lot less surprising. So when Morningtide came I thought that Bitterblossom together with Contamination would make a nice lock (read Blood Moon).

The point is how to turn it in a deck with some potential.
After some testing on MWS I came up with the following.


Mana sources: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures: 9
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Tombstalker
2 Bane of the Living

Disruption: 19
4 Bitterblossom
4 Contamination
4 Trinisphere
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Other: 6
3 Rhystic Tutor
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
3 Powder Keg


Bitterblossom + Contamination on the board is an instant win against any deck that doesnt run Black. My Meta is pretty Goyf infested so Stinkweed imp comes in pretty handy and it fuels my GY for Tombstalker. The Jittes are very important since they are the only solution against (massive) liveloss.
On MSW the deck hasn't really dissapointed me yet, pretty fun to play. It's not as explosive as Dragon Stompy, but the match up against Mono color is better.

EDIT:The Trinisphere is conflicting with a lot of other cards in the deck, I'm thinking about replacing it. Question is with what, maybe Shriekmaw?

Anyway after lurking on this forum for a while, I figured it was time for my first post. So be gentle.
Tips are welcome offcourse.

Thanks

Jelmer

Rinello
02-07-2008, 10:20 AM
Land / Mana

8 land (4 tombs and 4 traitors) : for we are stompy and we use our traitors to feed stalker
1 Urami : just in case
2 Urborg : extra black mana, good with :2: lands
7 Swamp : we need them I guess
4 chrome mox : extra stompy speed
4 Dark ritual : first turn, Chalice @ 2

Lock:
4 Chalice of the void : we love them
4 Contamination: I think this can work as our blood moon.
4 Bitterblossom: hope this combo works.. Looks very good!

Creatures:
3 Bane of the living : extra control
2 Stinkweed Imp : dredge for Stalker, recurring and lethal.
3 Tombstalker : Uber Beater
3 Graveborn Muse: our Dark Confidant
3 Braids Cabal Minion: I love her, she can controll the board with a Bitterblossom. I think she deserves a test.
4 Shriekmaw: Tarmo's nightmare.

4 Slot open:
3 Jitte + 1 Sword of Light and Shadow : we can use them to gain life and bounce back a creature Braids or Contamination killed.
I think in this deck is better than SoFI, for we can return a Maw and use it again to controll.


I am not sure about creatures quantity, I hope you can help me to decide how many are needed.
Thanks.

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Looks good. I'm curious as to how often Contamination+BitterBlossom works, or by the time you assemble it, is it a win-more?

Rinello
02-07-2008, 11:46 AM
Looks good. I'm curious as to how often Contamination+BitterBlossom works, or by the time you assemble it, is it a win-more?

Me too.
I think that bitterblossom is very good also with Braids and equipment.
I have a doubt, and it's called Dark Ritual; I think that I need a mana boost (since I love Dragon stompy I miss Seething Song and Simian Spirit Guilde) but I also think that +1 Muse / +1 Stalker / +2 Phyrexian Rager would be great.
Plus I swapped one swamp with a Twisted Abomination: It is just a Faerie Stompy influence :P

EDIT: I feel divine without Dark Ritual. Better topdecks, more aggro, more draw.
this deck is great.

I have 1 question:

Contamination on board: what happens to City and Tomb? I think that I pay/sacrifice as usual but they give 1 :b: right?

HdH_Cthulhu
02-07-2008, 12:44 PM
No because they produce :b: instead of ther normal type and amount.

Edit: I thought 1:b: = :1::b:

Rinello
02-07-2008, 02:53 PM
but I think that I pay what I need to pay (2 lives) and get :b: and not :2:
Also, if I play a land I sacrifice a contaminated City of Traitors

Jelmerz77
02-10-2008, 05:52 AM
but I think that I pay what I need to pay (2 lives) and get :b: and not :2:
Also, if I play a land I sacrifice a contaminated City of Traitors

Yes if you tap Ancient Tomb for the black mana you will still have to pay the 2 live. Same goes for the City of Traitors, it has to be sacrificed when you play another land.

moOnsteak
02-10-2008, 08:26 AM
Yes if you tap Ancient Tomb for the black mana you will still have to pay the 2 live. Same goes for the City of Traitors, it has to be sacrificed when you play another land.

If I have Ancient Tomb, Contamination, and Urborg in my board. .
I can choose Ancient Tomb to produce a black mana as a swamp and not going to be dealt 2 damages. .and then my black mana is still black mana because of Contamination's effect. .Am I right about this possibility?

I like this two lists :
by Mr. Zork :

// Lands
3 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
8 [MM] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
3 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [PS] Phyrexian Scuta
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [10E] Phyrexian Rager

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [LG] Nether Void
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

But in my opinion (I'm not even test this list), running Nether Void is like a suicide action than act to get advantage. .since you run most of high curve casting cost. .I doubt you can pay :5::b::b: for Muse when your opponent can pay :3::r: for a Mogg Fanatic. .Also run Urborg is always nice for this deck as an advantage for color balancing. .In Dragon Stompy has a problem between :r: and :r::r:. .this deck can solve it better. .


Mana sources: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures: 9
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Tombstalker
2 Bane of the Living

Disruption: 19
4 Bitterblossom
4 Contamination
4 Trinisphere
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Other: 6
3 Rhystic Tutor
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
3 Powder Keg

This one is also promising, but still I like to run Chalice more than discard spells. .Chalice@1 and @2 is favorsble so cut 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Chalice and 4 Unmask will be a sugestion for me. .

Does anyone have a testing yet which better?

Jelmerz77
02-10-2008, 11:32 AM
If I have Ancient Tomb, Contamination, and Urborg in my board. .
I can choose Ancient Tomb to produce a black mana as a swamp and not going to be dealt 2 damages. .and then my black mana is still black mana because of Contamination's effect. .Am I right about this possibility?

I asked a Judge yesterday when I played a tournament and he said the following. Only the mana produced by the land is affected. The land keeps al its other effects. So it is still a Ancient tomb that will deal 2 damage to you when tapped for mana only you will get :b: instead of :2:.

Nihil Credo
02-10-2008, 01:45 PM
I asked a Judge yesterday when I played a tournament and he said the following. Only the mana produced by the land is affected. The land keeps al its other effects. So it is still a Ancient tomb that will deal 2 damage to you when tapped for mana only you will get :b: instead of :2:.
That's what happens with Tomb + Contamination.

However, throw Urborg into the Mix and Ancient Tomb gains the subtype Swamp and the second ability to tap for :b:, just like a basic Swamp.

trollwarrior_666
02-11-2008, 11:29 AM
I currently play the following list:

Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Urborg
6 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures
4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Shriekmaw
4 Grinning Demon
4 Bane of the Living
1 Skittering Horror

Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Jitte

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Winter Orb
4 Plague Spitter
3 Shimian Specter

I'm thinking to change the following: -1 Skittering Horror, -1 Trinisphere, +2 Phyrexian Negator.
Priest of Gix is mediocre, he's great first turn with another creature back up, but he's a terrible topdeck.

I like the Bitter Blossom / Contamination combo, especially if you add Braids. However, I'm not convinced it's really worth the extra slots.

moOnsteak
02-15-2008, 05:59 PM
I currently play the following list:

Mana
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Urborg


I like the Bitter Blossom / Contamination combo, especially if you add Braids. However, I'm not convinced it's really worth the extra slots.

These card refer to the same things. .I think your will is Urborg and Tomb of Urami. .

I've a couple test about some versions of this deck and sure that Bitter Blossom / Contamination combo will be more powerful in different build that run more creatures (like black winnie or something)

Sanguine Voyeur
02-15-2008, 06:34 PM
These card refer to the same things. .I think your will is Urborg and Tomb of Urami.I think one is the "every land is a swamp" and the other is Tomb of Urami. I think there are some merits to Tomb of Urami by its versatility alone, but I don't know if this deck can handle sacrificing all its lands. Three looks like to many.

Waikiki
02-16-2008, 03:34 AM
I've been giving a shot to Demon stompy and this is the list I came up with.


// Lands
8 [TE] Swamp (4)
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [UD] Skittering Horror
4 [10E] Phyrexian Rager
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [LE] Bane of the Living
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 2 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

It's really really fun to play but I would like to add some nether voids but just cant find any slots.

trollwarrior_666
02-18-2008, 03:05 AM
I think one is the "every land is a swamp" and the other is Tomb of Urami. I think there are some merits to Tomb of Urami by its versatility alone, but I don't know if this deck can handle sacrificing all its lands. Three looks like to many.

I play 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and 3 Tomb of Urami. 3 is a lot but it's also an uncounterable wincondition, and I played several people who didn't realise I could make a token and attacked into it which gave me advantage.

Waikiki, I think Skittering Horror is terrible, you don't want to play it as your first creature. You'll sacrifice it far too often to it's own drawback than you'd like to.

Waikiki
02-18-2008, 03:22 AM
So far it didn't gave me any problem since I mostly go like:

T1 chalice or 3sphere.
T2 Gix + horror

Which gives them 2 cards to deal with and they probably didn't do anything yet if im on the play. Seems pretty good to me.

Do you have any suggestion other then the horror ?

Also what is your recent list?


P.S are you the player that played demon stompy on the utrecht tournament a while ago? I saw you playing then. I was the Dragon stompy player that got 6th.

Wargoos
02-18-2008, 12:38 PM
Rinellos List is pretty strong, i think.
I play the same^^...

@ Rinello:
What do u play in your Sideboard?

trollwarrior_666
02-19-2008, 04:23 PM
So far it didn't gave me any problem since I mostly go like:

T1 chalice or 3sphere.
T2 Gix + horror

Which gives them 2 cards to deal with and they probably didn't do anything yet if im on the play. Seems pretty good to me.

Do you have any suggestion other then the horror ?

Also what is your recent list?


P.S are you the player that played demon stompy on the utrecht tournament a while ago? I saw you playing then. I was the Dragon stompy player that got 6th.

In my opinion Demon Stompy plays too much creatures to play Horror. What if your only creature is Horror and you draw Phyrexian Rager, will you play the Rager and hope for another creature or will you keep the Horror? I think that it forces you to make too much lose / lose decisions in a deck which isn't very consistant. I would suggest to replace it with either Phyrexian Scuta or Bane of the Living.

My current list is on the 2nd page of this thread, and I was in Utrecht 6th January.

pcccp
03-07-2008, 12:27 PM
I took Demon Stompy to 3 tournaments over the last weeks. I went 3:1, 3:2 and 3:1. I never suspected the deck to be any good, but it works fine.

Some notices:

- Stinkweed Imp is really cool. He gives you a dredgeable removal for most of the creatures played in the format. Equipping him with SoFi is always a good idea. I only play 2 main, because stompy is about making fast damage with fat creatures and 1/2 isn't big enough.

- Grinning Demon can be dropped 1. or 2. turn. He is always bigger then a goyf in that part of the game and can only be stopped bei StP. You loose a lot of life, but that´s ok until you play against red based decks with much burn spells.

- Priest of Gix. I had some funny game starts with him. Playing 3x Priest + Trinisphere 1. turn happend once and the game was over before it begun. Later in the Game he is just a free blocker or target for your opponents removal.

- Bane of the Living. Playing both Grinning Demon and Bane of the Living is fun, because your opponent never knows, which creature you just played as a morph. Flexible mass removal. Really helpful against token and Goblins.

- Phyrexian Rager. I am not sure about him. 2/2 is to weak. Demon Stompy is not White Weenie. You dont want to overrun your enemy with an army of little guys. You want to have one or two big threads that kill your opponent fast. If i had to choose between Priest or Rager i would choose Priest.

- Umezawa's Jitte Three is minimum. You loose so much life that you want to equip it every game. jitte is although the best card against random.deck.

I played Dragon Stompy and the older version called Empty the Slogger since it exists and switched now to demon stompy. The main reason: to many people play it now and i wanted to try something different. But there are some more arguments:

1. Demon Stompy has better creature removal. Shriekmav and Stinkweed Imp are better then Slogger or Pyrokinesis. Eyery deck plays goyf now and Imp simply kills him and comes back next round. Slogger fires 4 times and then runs out of fuel.

2. Dragon Stompy needs hellbent. This means terrible topdeck all day. Demon
Stompy draws a lot of cards. 2 Graveborn Muse = 4 extra cards evey round and of course 4 lifeloss. :tongue:
Dragon Stompy wants to play chalice, Trinisphere and/or Moon as soon as possible and then kill with hellbent creatures. If you loose these creatures you are really doomed. Having no cards in hand is really game over. You don`t topdeck a new thread every round. Demon Stompy can play chalice and trinisphere first turn too but don´t loose because your creatues got removed.
You draw more cards then everybody else and can drop threads every round.

3. Black has excellent sideboard cards. Leyline of the void is the best gravehate card (in my opinion) and if you fear ichorid or breakfast you can put in yixlid yailer too. Goblins arn´t played so much these days, but you will find them on eyery bigger tournament. 4 plagues for the win!

My actual list:

[MAIN]

4x Grinning Demon
3x Shriekmaw
2x Stinkweed Imp
4x Phyrexian Rager
4x Priest of Gix
3x Graveborn Muse
3x Bane of the Living

2x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void

3x Umezawa`s Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Dark Ritual
4x Chrome Mox

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
1x Urborg, Tomb of Y.
1x Tomb of Urami
8x Swamp

[SB]

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
2x Tinisphere
5x OPEN SLOTS (Duress, Perish, etc. - depends on meta)

Waikiki
03-07-2008, 12:38 PM
I always liked SOLS over SOFI because of the lifegain + shriekmaw recursion.

Phantom
03-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm glad someone finally agrees with me about Stinkweed Imp. One of the best things he lets you do however is run Tombstalker. Did you ever try him?

pcccp
03-07-2008, 12:44 PM
I will try SoLS the next tournaments. :laugh:

pcccp
03-07-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm glad someone finally agrees with me about Stinkweed Imp. One of the best things he lets you do however is run Tombstalker. Did you ever try him?

Stinkweed Imp can do great things. I have won some games just because of him, but i although lost to burn and other red intensive aggro decks, because dealing 1 damage every round is not enough. Thats the reason why i don´t play 4 anymore. I like the synergy between Tombstalker and Imp and i will try it. The problem with tombstalker is that you dont get much cards into your grave. you have 4 rituals and maybe you can counter a jitte if you got chalice@2. Stinkweed Imp needs to die first and the opponents i played didn´t attack because of him and waited for a topdeck removal.

Maybe its wrong to say Imp is a good removal, its a card that says "dont attack me and wait for a solution".

Tacosnape
03-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Two questions.

1. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Contagion? Slaughtering Goblins is fun, so I hear, as is hitting Cephalid Illusionists and Whatever-En-Kors, Nantuko Shades, Dark Confidants, and so forth. As is -4/-2'ing annoying guys like Tarmogoyf for sneaky combat tricks when it's attacking or blocking.

2. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Gathan Raiders? It's a better black creature than half of the guys in the current list, and it allows for mass confusion of opponents with Grinning Demon (They'll be like, whytf is he -morphing- a Grinning Demon?) Also dodges the occasional random pro-black thing, in case those still exist.

My current black Chalice Aggro list looks like this.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Contagion
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Mercenary Knight
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Priest of Gix
4 Grinning Demon
4 Eastern Paladin
4 Bane of the Living

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Contagion
4 Pithing Needle

I admit I'd never tested out Graveborn Muse. Any good?

EDIT: Also, Eastern Paladin? Good.

Phantom
03-07-2008, 03:01 PM
Two questions.

1. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Contagion? Slaughtering Goblins is fun, so I hear, as is hitting Cephalid Illusionists and Whatever-En-Kors, Nantuko Shades, Dark Confidants, and so forth. As is -4/-2'ing annoying guys like Tarmogoyf for sneaky combat tricks when it's attacking or blocking.

2. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Gathan Raiders? It's a better black creature than half of the guys in the current list, and it allows for mass confusion of opponents with Grinning Demon (They'll be like, whytf is he -morphing- a Grinning Demon?) Also dodges the occasional random pro-black thing, in case those still exist.

1) Well, it's a good card no doubt, it's just tough to find a slot depending on the build. The deck already runs Shriekmaw, equipment, and perhaps a few of thos XBB choose two spells (Profane Command?) as removal, so dedicating more mainboard slots to removal can be tricky, sort of like mainboarding Pyrokenisis in DS. The sideboard already has Leyline (or Jailer) and Plague, so it might not be worth extra slots there. I think I might mainboard it in a more Hellbent-ish build (more on this below).

2) Certain builds can have a damn hard time getting Hellbent between all the 4cc guys, Profane Command, Nether Void, Trini + Ritual (if anyone does that) and Shriekmaw. Plus, it's occasionally a killer with Mox. I would like to try out a more hellbent build with Raiders and Demons Jester. Note that that would bring Demon Stompy up to three quality morphers (Grinning D, Bane, and Raiders) which could all be dropped off a Priest of Gix. Worth a look at at least.

Edit: I can't imagine Eastern Paladin actually being better than Shriekmaw on a regular basis. I also HATE Mercenary Knight after testing him. Making me discard a creature is a KILLER. I've been fooling around with the like 2/2 hasty flyer whose echo is discarding a card. Of course, my build is a tad more equipment heavy and runs Bitterblossom.

Cavius The Great
03-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Two questions.

1. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Contagion? Slaughtering Goblins is fun, so I hear, as is hitting Cephalid Illusionists and Whatever-En-Kors, Nantuko Shades, Dark Confidants, and so forth. As is -4/-2'ing annoying guys like Tarmogoyf for sneaky combat tricks when it's attacking or blocking.

2. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Gathan Raiders? It's a better black creature than half of the guys in the current list, and it allows for mass confusion of opponents with Grinning Demon (They'll be like, whytf is he -morphing- a Grinning Demon?) Also dodges the occasional random pro-black thing, in case those still exist.

My current black Chalice Aggro list looks like this.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Contagion
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Mercenary Knight
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Priest of Gix
4 Grinning Demon
4 Eastern Paladin
4 Bane of the Living

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Contagion
4 Pithing Needle

I admit I'd never tested out Graveborn Muse. Any good?

EDIT: Also, Eastern Paladin? Good.

Tacosnape: I'm thrilled to see that you play Sword of Light and Shadow over SofI in this deck. I came to the realization that Sword of Light and Shadow has better synergy with Ancient Tombs, while testing a wide variety of decks. I'm glad to see someone else put that logic to use.

Proz0r
03-08-2008, 03:11 PM
Have you considered Solemn Simulacrum? He could be pretty good:

- Finds colored mana (BB for your creatures)
- Nice synergy with City of Traitors to get to 5 mana
- He cantrips
- He can carry equipment :)
- He can't be imprinted to Chrome Mox

Is he strong enough?

romain7
03-08-2008, 04:22 PM
I don't have any experience playing this deck, but i have an idea. Bitterblossom and contamination could be used as alock piece. Perhaps too much life is lost already, though.

romain7
03-08-2008, 04:25 PM
As well, planar void should be used over jailer, because it has the ability to keep goyfs small.

Nihil Credo
03-08-2008, 04:33 PM
As well, planar void should be used over jailer, because it has the ability to keep goyfs small.
Better not. You usually want Chalice of the Void against Goyf decks.

enemyofarsenic
03-08-2008, 06:15 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/ShionFerios/SHM_booster_15_revealed.jpg

For hellbent demon stompy?

Cavius The Great
03-08-2008, 06:22 PM
Two questions.

1. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Contagion? Slaughtering Goblins is fun, so I hear, as is hitting Cephalid Illusionists and Whatever-En-Kors, Nantuko Shades, Dark Confidants, and so forth. As is -4/-2'ing annoying guys like Tarmogoyf for sneaky combat tricks when it's attacking or blocking.

2. Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Gathan Raiders? It's a better black creature than half of the guys in the current list, and it allows for mass confusion of opponents with Grinning Demon (They'll be like, whytf is he -morphing- a Grinning Demon?) Also dodges the occasional random pro-black thing, in case those still exist.

My current black Chalice Aggro list looks like this.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Contagion
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Mercenary Knight
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Priest of Gix
4 Grinning Demon
4 Eastern Paladin
4 Bane of the Living

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Contagion
4 Pithing Needle

I admit I'd never tested out Graveborn Muse. Any good?

EDIT: Also, Eastern Paladin? Good.

Just out of curiosity, if Juzam Djinn was affordable (moneywise) would you still play Grinning Demon over it? And is Grinning Demon better than Plague Sliver, per say? Or do you need a bigger body to block Goyfs?

Dark_Cynic87
03-08-2008, 09:14 PM
I'm assuming (and I'm probably right) that Grinning Demon is better than Juzam because of Morph. It allows a.)Demon to not deal damage to you, b.) combat trix, c.) a critter drop earlier when necessary. It can allow a turn2 Swinging Demon. You can't do that with a Juzam.

I don't think Demigod is for this deck. Searching is key for the God, and this deck has none. Also, it seems to lack synergy with SoLS...Either that or incredible synergy; I can't make up my mind if it's good that Demi comes back or not in conjunction with Sword. If you splashed blue for Intuition, You have a chance for the inclusion of Demigod. Also, I just learned that the trigger happens whether or not Demigod resolves, so it may be worth at least SB for crazy beats quickly against counter-heavy decks.

On the most recent poster with a decklist: Dark Rit seems to be a dumb inclusion in my opinion as Chalice is MD'ed, not to mention it gives them serious advantage with a single daze. Unless you use it to drop a Chalice turn 1 with B floating to deter a Daze. Then you will of course take the burn b/c no one is stupid enough to daze someone with a floating mana.

I'd drop Dark Rits and a few swamps for USeas and Intuitions. Priest of Gix seems underpowered except in that insane hand you said you had that one game. I'd probably drop it as well for a better choice, especially if you add in a color.

BTW, if you did this, you could drop a few of your utility critters down to 3-ofs or less for tutorability, possibly use Phyrexian Tower to tutor for 3x 1-ofs and get whatever you want. A good utility creature I haven't seen posted is
Filth. Works quite well with Intuition and has even better synergy with Urborg, ToY.

I know this isn't completely on-topic, but someone mentioned the Demigod, and I'm psyched over it...Like I said and explained, it could be in a varient of this deck, but probably not enough to be a simple inclusion in this version.

--Pce

Joon
03-09-2008, 08:42 AM
I think we can agree on a core of the deck...?

Mana

10 Swamps
4 Tombs
4 Cities
4 Chrome Mox

(maybe more lands? This deck is a lot more mana intensive than other stompies, maybe Tomb of Urami?)

Critter

4 Priest of Gix
4 Graveborn Muse (I can't stress this enough, this bitch is SO good in here)
4 Phyrexian Scuta (Synergy, big)
4 Grinning Demon
4 Shriekmaw (together with Muse the best Critter)

Disruption

4 Chalice
4 3-sphere
some mix of equipment, at least something like 4 SoLaS, maybe more Loxodon Warhammers

My current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [MI] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [LOR] Shriekmaw
4 [PS] Phyrexian Scuta
4 [UL] Bone Shredder
4 [ON] Grinning Demon

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [MR] Loxodon Warhammer

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I don't know if Stinkweed Imp is worth it to play it over Shredder, till now I'm liking that 8 critters have Terrors involved. 24 Critters is also good with all that Equipment and so on.

smoky squirrel
03-09-2008, 09:41 AM
I like that list Joon... I will try it sometimes.

On the topic of Demigod... It is not for this deck. You need to have 5 black mana to cast it. That means a certain inclusion of Dark Ritual. Two rituals is 1 Demigod, or one ritual and 3 swamps or 5 swamps. See where this is going? You cannot cast this thing reliably without changing the core of the deck. But I am very excited about this card...

How does this deck handle Platinum Angel?

Sanguine Voyeur
03-09-2008, 09:57 AM
How does this deck handle Platinum Angel?Sideboard graveyard hate in game two and three.

If it's their only possible threat, Tombstalker can prevent them from winning.

Filipinho
03-09-2008, 10:28 AM
I'm a big fan of stompy, and I'm really interested in this deck. I think it has the potential to become competitive.
This is the list I'm giving a try:

2x Tomb of Urami
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
7x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Graveborn Muse
4x Phyrexian Scuta
4x Grinning Demon
4x Shriekmaw
4x Stinkweed Imp

Both Urborg and Urami are needed. I don't like Urami as a 3x. As 2x there's a nice chance of drawing one and yet a slow chance of drawing 2x. You want it middle-late game anyway. Urborg can turn everything into a swamp. This deck's blood moon, sort of.

Dark Ritual is too good to pass up. It's one of the best spells ever. Bad sinergy with CotV? yes, but you only want it early game, maybe to set up a t1 chalice. There's always a chance of imprinting it into a mox.

3-phere and CotV doesn't need to be explained. How this decks fights combo, gains tempo and virtual CA with CotV.

This deck has such massive life loss it needs some life gain. Umezawa's Jitte is the best equipment ever, but I'm traumatized about drawing 2x. That's why I only play 2x. The other equip is a though call between SoLS and Loxodon Warhammer. The first gives pro:most removal spells in the format, +2/+2, 3 life per hit, and CA, cool tricks with Shriekmaw. It's weakness is the lack of evasion of the deck. Only Imp can carry it properly, Shriekmaw also if the fear works. Loxodon Warhammer gives sort of evasion, with +3/+0 and lifelink. Easier carried, more life, doesn't give CA, higher equip cost.

Graveborn Muse: Great source of Card Advantage at a low life loss cost. Decent body,although dies to bolt. Nice cc 3b.
Phyrexian Scuta: Nice cc, 3b+3life, for a 5/5. Really good synergy with the Muse.
Grinning Demon: Nice body, most times bigger than Goyf, really fast clock, but intensive life loss. You can trick a turn of life loss due to it's morph. Would be better along with Bane of the living.
Shriekmaw: Source of Card Advantage. It can't kill any of your guys (except morphed creatures). Nice body with evasion.
Stinkweed Imp: Hard decision. Bane of the Living and Bone Shredder are great here too. But I think overall, the Imp is better. Evasion, nice cc, death touch are great in the current meta. Bone Shredder is too mana intensive, although another source of CA, cool tricks with SoLS, evasion. Bane of the Living can be tech vs a lot of decks. Nice synergy with Grinning Demon. Great body.

I'll be watching the topic...

scrumdogg
03-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Sideboard graveyard hate in game two and three.

If it's their only possible threat, Tombstalker can prevent them from winning.

They'll still deck you at some point. Can we agree that Demi-God is a good card on it's own? If so, why would having the opportunity to do insane things while merely playing a good card make it hard to consider? And if one were to play both Gathan Raiders and Stinkweed Imp in the deck as well, it would increase the potential for stupid things to happen.

Tacosnape
03-09-2008, 02:25 PM
How does this deck handle Platinum Angel?

Four Jitte counters. Or a Bane of the Living for 4. And wtf runs Platinum Angel anyway?

scrumdogg
03-09-2008, 02:57 PM
Four Jitte counters. Or a Bane of the Living for 4. And wtf runs Platinum Angel anyway?

Locally there is a good UB control deck that runs it as well as Counter-top, Trinket-toolbox-Academy Ruins & Stifle-Nought. It is more of a meta by meta concern, but if it is IN your meta....

Illissius
03-09-2008, 04:08 PM
I still have trouble accepting that a hyperaggressive deck in the Stompy mould, whose favorite casting cost is :2::b:, would not want to play the best hyperaggressive black creature ever printed: Phyrexian Negator. I can see the idea of making it a slower, grinding deck with Imps, Blossoms, Maws, SoLS, and so on, but is this really the best strategy to pair with the explosive-but-unreliable Tomb/City/Mox/Ritual manabase? It just seems like an inherent contradiction, to me.

It's too bad we don't have a black Spirit Guide, but even with what we do have, we should be able to get turn one Negators (or turn two, ideally following a Chalice) a pretty frighteningly high portion of the time. And thanks to our good friend, Lightning Bolt isn't around much any more.

EDIT - Also, I would really hate having the only black cards in the deck pitchable to Chrome Mox being creatures, as I've seen in some lists. That would be awful for threat density.

Dark_Cynic87
03-09-2008, 11:44 PM
UGr Thresh seems to be the most popular. Watch this:

You, turn 1: Mox and pitch, City, Negator. Go.
Them, turn 1: Red mana source, L. Bolt negator, you sac Mox, land and Critter.
You, in response: Oh shit.

Not pretty. That's why. 4-for-1 trades are not tecH.

--cartman

HammafistRoob
03-10-2008, 10:21 AM
I have played Negator for 2 years now(not in this deck)and have never had my opponent 4 for 1 me. I have won so many games with just Negator on the board, no other permanents, just Gator. He is the best Creature for this deck, just because Lightning Bolt exists doesn't mean you can't play him. Just side him out against decks that play burn and you should be fine. I would run Negator just because a turn 1 5/5 Trampler is crazy.

You also run Chalice and 3sphere, which make Negator better.

largebrandon
03-10-2008, 11:21 AM
Negator - Personally, I would like to have him in the SB as it would be the best possible way to avoid a 4 for 1 (or worse). Side him in at every possible match that doesn't play red.

Demigod of Revenge - I like this guy a lot! However, it has been said that BBBBB is difficult to get. I'd only suggest playing him if you are playing Darkritual AND Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Also, he would be fun with a morph Gathan Riders (pitch a Demigod, then play another one for three 5/x creatures).

smoky squirrel
03-10-2008, 11:22 AM
I reckon that the Negator used to be good, but now with Goyf running around... He is still good turn 1, but then he becomes a bad topdeck unless you have some equipment out.

I really think the deck needs fliers, either in the form of Stinkweed Imp or Bone Shredder, and maybe Tombstalker, since Moat is deadly otherwise.

Filipinho
03-10-2008, 01:27 PM
Negator isn't as good in the current meta as it has been before. The meta is heavily aggro, which means blockers and therefore card disadvantage.

romain7
03-10-2008, 10:00 PM
Grinning Demon is a terrible choice. Although it sticks with the theme and is a 6/6 for four mana with a possible morph, it's also a 6/6 for four that bum-fucks you for two damage every turn and has no evasion to make up for it, and there is no way to drop it when it hurts too much. I think suicide is the best approach here, but we need to be a little more conservative than that.

Also, I do not believe that anyone took into account bitterblossom+contamination. This could lock down sooooo many more decks than dragon stompy can with moon affects. Although it drops you one life a turn, it gives you time to find the right pieces and smash face. In my opinion, it's a better investment than grinning demon, but another bigger beater is needed.

raharu
03-10-2008, 11:01 PM
Grinning Demon is a terrible choice. Although it sticks with the theme and is a 6/6 for four mana with a possible morph, it's also a 6/6 for four that bum-fucks you for two damage every turn and has no evasion to make up for it, and there is no way to drop it when it hurts too much. I think suicide is the best approach here, but we need to be a little more conservative than that.

Also, I do not believe that anyone took into account bitterblossom+contamination. This could lock down sooooo many more decks than dragon stompy can with moon affects. Although it drops you one life a turn, it gives you time to find the right pieces and smash face. In my opinion, it's a better investment than grinning demon, but another bigger beater is needed.
1) Insert face into palm
2) Repeat

In a deck with a clock this fast, 2 life doesn't matter, and Tample makes up for the lack of evasion, considering that very few creatures are bigger than x/5 in this format.

On a related note, FAST CLOCK! None of this Contamination shenanigan nonsense. ++ Phyrexian Negator, -- Slow, excessive and unneeded lock pieces. 4 Chalice + 4 3Sphere are enough.

romain7
03-10-2008, 11:52 PM
i'd still rather atleast take the djinn. 4 swings- game over with djinn or demon.

idraleo
04-04-2008, 03:48 AM
as i saw the shadowmoor spoiler, i start to try the Dusk Urchins and a different approach to teh decklist. Before i were not impressed by Dark Ritual, because many starting hands was a mulligan because of they. I'm trying to play Coldsteel Heart (or Charcoal Diamond btw) because i prefer a stable mana base and the one spot Ritual where not the best. Then i tryied to cut Bane of the Living to play Aphetto exterminator: morph cost is more viable, but i found that those guy is, obv, not as good as Bane against Goblin, so it is very viable that i will return on Bane. This is the decklist i'm testing by now:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
9 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 Dusk Urchins
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
3 [LE] Aphetto Exterminator

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CS] Coldsteel Heart

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid

Elficidium
04-04-2008, 05:28 AM
My take on the new list with the Urchins:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
7 [PT] Swamp (4)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
2 [US] Priest of Gix
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins

// Spells
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [U] Dark Ritual
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [LE] Bane of the Living
SB: 4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator

Maveric78f
04-04-2008, 05:31 AM
The lack of evasion of Demon Stompy (togerther with it's life loss) is a real issue and you absolutely need equipments that help you. Jitte is ok but loxodon warhammer too. Swords of Light and Shadow may be cool too with the life gain and the shriekmaw recursion. Plus it can make dusk urchin draw like a champ (5 cards!). I would go 3jitte/2warhammer/2SoLS.

As the first turn is less important as in Dragon Stompy, the Coldsteel Hearth may be nice. However, I would go down on the number of mana source.

Scarscale Ritual may be also a fun draw spell with dusk urchin. But probably not in this deck.


Scarscale Ritual 1 {UB}
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Scarscale Ritual, put a -1/-1 counter on a creature you control.
Draw two cards.

Edit: forgot but yeah bitterblossom is a complete no brainer in this deck where you (should) play 6+ equipments.

Elficidium
04-04-2008, 05:36 AM
The lack of evasion of Demon Stompy (togerther with it's life loss) is a real issue and you absolutely need equipments that help you. Jitte is ok but loxodon warhammer too. Swords of Light and Shadow may be cool too with the life gain and the shriekmaw recursion. Plus it can make dusk urchin draw like a champ (5 cards!). I would go 3jitte/2warhammer/2SoLS.

As the first turn is less important as in Dragon Stompy, the Coldsteel Hearth may be nice. However, I would go down on the number of mana source.

Scarscale Ritual may be also a fun draw spell with dusk urchin. But probably not in this deck.

I was considering the draw spell, but honestly the deck is so full that we'd be cutting creatures and lock pieces for draw. Not a good plan.
If you look at my list, the only things I could see replaced by Loxodon Warhammers are Priest of Gix or Dark Rituals. Doesn't sound right to me. I especially like the quite explosive openings with Dark Rituals & Priests.
I'm really liking the Sword of L&S, it gives you protection from Smother & STP and has 2 very relevant abilities when it connects.

EDIT: Bitterblossom is nuts. Loving it every game. But not in multiples, so 3 MD.

Maveric78f
04-04-2008, 07:42 AM
Bitterblossom + equip is almost gg if not responded. I would not mind to have 2 in hand. Having 2 in hand does not necessarily means playing both. Bitterblossom is a card that you want in your opening hand = 4*MD for me.
I personnally don't like Dark ritual or priest of gix. With Imp and bitterblossom, Demon Stompy is the only stompy ddeck that has a long term valuable game plan. No need to hurry and play bad topdecks.

Let's go to a list :
Mana base 24 :
8*city/tomb
1*Urborg
1*Volrath's Stronghold (to test)
10*swamp
4*Mox

Locks 7:
4*Chalice
3*Trinisphere

Equipments 7:
4*SoLS
3*Jitte

Threats 20:
4*Imp
4*Bitterblossom
4*Dusk Urchin
4*Shriekmaw
4*Grinning Demon/Graveborn Muse

Misc 2:
2*Profane Command

SB:
4*LotV
4*Plague
3*Defense Grid
1*Trinisphere
1*Jitte
2*Grinning Demon/Graveborn Muse

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 01:47 PM
I still have trouble accepting that a hyperaggressive deck in the Stompy mould, whose favorite casting cost is :2::b:, would not want to play the best hyperaggressive black creature ever printed: Phyrexian Negator. I can see the idea of making it a slower, grinding deck with Imps, Blossoms, Maws, SoLS, and so on, but is this really the best strategy to pair with the explosive-but-unreliable Tomb/City/Mox/Ritual manabase? It just seems like an inherent contradiction, to me.

It's too bad we don't have a black Spirit Guide, but even with what we do have, we should be able to get turn one Negators (or turn two, ideally following a Chalice) a pretty frighteningly high portion of the time. And thanks to our good friend, Lightning Bolt isn't around much any more.

EDIT - Also, I would really hate having the only black cards in the deck pitchable to Chrome Mox being creatures, as I've seen in some lists. That would be awful for threat density.

I'd run the totem instead just for the B production, it's like Negator/Priest in a single card.

technogeek5000
04-17-2008, 12:14 AM
Corrosive Mentor :2: :b:
Creature - Elemental Rogue
Black creatures you control have wither.
Guttering cinders stoke their dying flames by snuffing out the lights of others.
Illus. Daarken #61/301 1/3

I was thinking that this card could be played in this deck. If makes all your creatures ridiculous in the combat step and it has a nice ass to keep itself alive and chump the opponent all day long. Also its casting cost is :2: :b: which is the best you can get for the deck. Maybe as a sideboard option for aggro decks in general.

GGoober
04-26-2008, 04:13 PM
I've been experimenting with Demon Stompy over the past month. This is a strong build in my opinion.

// Lands
7 [10E] Swamp (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [UD] Graveborn Muse
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [LE] Bane of the Living
3 [ONS] Grinning Demon

// Spells
4 [TS] Smallpox
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [MR] Loxodon Warhammer
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void


I am a big fan of Grinning Demon. Although most people have discussed taking him out because he gets chump blocked all the time. He is really super against non-aggro control/combo (3 turn clock considering most people take 2 damage from Tombs/Fetchlands). With a Loxodon Warhammer and Jitte in play, the lifeloss can be offset, and trample + Jitte removes small creatures to let Demon hit through. The same concept is the same for Gathan Raiders and any of our creatures. This deck needs the life gain bad from Demon/Tomb. Loxodon Warhammer has been almost always useful in all my games played. Sure your opponent can Swords your swords your creatures, but we can't really deal with that all the time. Interestingly, we now have 10 morph creatures, which pretty much confuses the hell out of the opponents. Each of the morph creature is very playable, and hence usually allows us to morph up the following turn.

I always advocate playing Stinkweed Imp. He is too good in the deck not to be included. He blocks any creatures all day, and flys over with Jittes if your opponents has a clear board. Lastly, most importantly, he dredges, and if you have a Tomb Stalker in hand, he dredges and makes your Tombstalker 5 less to play. I've had insane plays with Tomb Stalker + Stinky, and I highly recommend that Stinky remain in the shell (if we're choosing to run Tombstalker).

Other things that I have tested out. Smallpox is generally good for screwing up opponents at unneccesary times. It is unsymmetrical because you play it, hence you benefit from not losing as much. It allows us to discard Stinky, and start dredging to play Tombstalker next turn. It gets rid of a Goyf, and slows opponents down when they've fetched for their only dual land (sometimes).

I really love Graveborn Muse. Sometimes I think she's better than Bob, well at least for this deck that can mana-accelerate her out by turn 2. She is more consistent than Bob in this game, and she makes all our 3cc+ spells seem like 1cc if you are thinking about the Bob-effects. Great card, and great 3/3 body that blocks 1/1, 2/2s.

Other notes: I would love to run Chalice maindeck, like any other Stompy builds, but I'm not sure if that is possible. Also Contamination + Bitterblossom may be a good inclusion although it slows the deck's strategy a lot.

Maëlig
04-27-2008, 04:24 AM
From an outsider point of view (I never really tested demon stompy), smallpox seems like a card I would NOT want to have in hand. Can you give more eplanations for this choice?
I like tombstalker + imp, but are you not afraid to be unable to play the first if you don't draw the second, especially since you run it as a 4-of?
Finally, chalice seems to me like the best reason to be playing stompy-decks in the first place, I can't see why you wouldn't 4 of it MD.

GGoober
04-28-2008, 12:30 AM
Tombstalker is usually played after turn 3+. Gathan Raiders makes Tombstalker + Stinky very playable as you discard, dredge, play both Tombstalker and Stinky by Turn 4. I would play Chalice of the Void main, but I was following the development of the thread, which excluded Chalice. I might take out Grinning Demon and Play Chalice main.

Perhaps it is my matchups, but smallpox has seemed to be outperforming itself, even in this deck. Smallpox is basically overpowered when you can break the symmetry, but you can usually do so since you play Smallpox. Smallpox allows you to discard Stinky, and faciliates Tombstalkers late game. I'm not sure, but Smallpox can be taken out. It has just proven to be a key play most of the time in my matchups (not against goblins thought).

Elficidium
05-05-2008, 04:23 PM
I'm amazed after seeing some of the lists being posted. I'll give my 2 cents about what I consider Demon Stompy to be. If people think that this isn't a total piece of gibberish, I'd be willing to rewrite this to be more primer-ish

I consider Stompy to be defined as a deck that plays acceleration, disruption in the form of Chalice and Trinisphere (and is built to play around this) and undercosted beaters. Demon Stompy would then be the version with less tempo problems, due to some draw effects and. recursion. It also has the possibility for targeted removal and solid sideboard cards, such as Extirpate, Thoughtseize, Engineered Plague and Leyline of the Void.

Land:
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
The regular stompy lands, not much discussion about this I suppose.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1-2 Tomb or Urami
Both Nonbasics provide no disadvantage except waste-ability as a 1-of, I'd dare run 2 Tomb of Urami since they're really good in this deck
7-8 Basics

Mana Accel:
4 Chrome Moxen for tempo

Optional Mana Accel:
0-4 Priest of Gix: More explosive and allows very nice Turn 1 plays such as turn 1 Trini or Chalice 1, which royally screw over a lot of decks. Good Equipment carrier that can be used to pay the Equipment or the Equip.
0-4 Dark Ritual: I can understand that some people would not want to play this due to dissynergy with the very important Chalice @ 1. I Personally love them and they can always be shoved under a Chrome Mox with Chalice @ 1.

Creatures: This is very dependant on taste

Staples: These are the creatures that I consider to be focal points of the deck.
4 Grinning Demon: It gave the deck the name and provides a solid 3-turn clock. I consider this a must. It hits hard and unexpected.
4 Stinkweed Imp: recurring evasive creature that can kill Goyfs with ease and appears to be made for carrying Equipment.
2-3 Graveborn Muse: Our Dark Confidant, beats for quite a lot and draws cards while not being very antisynergetic with Grinning Demon.

Serious Contenders: I have all played these at some point and found them to be decent, while not always up to par with some other choices.
2-3 Bane of The Living: makes the opponent doubt about swordsing Morphs and is a good sweeper against aggro. I play these in my SB and this where I would recommend them.
Phyrexian Negator: Too big of a Gamble in the current meta. They're great but can turn a Lightning Bolt into a lost Game. I'd recommend the, yet again, in the SB, for the opponents that don't have ways to turn him into huge card disadvantage.
Shriekmaw: I currently have these as a 3-of MB and consider them to be very good. Removal that can serve as a beatstick in the lategame is perfect in this deck.
Phyrexian Rager: It cantrips, which is quite important in this deck to keep pressure and tempo. decent body that needs equipment to really shine.
Dusk Urchins: One of the recent additions. I am currently testing this in the Rager slots and I'm very happy with it. I'll add on to this as I continue my testing.
Bitterblossom: Technically an Enchantment but in this deck it takes creature slots. Something that gives Control a splitting headache and pumps out evasive creatures to hang equipment under. A No-brainer but since it's a relatively new card i won't put it down as a staple just yet.

Most of the downright bad creatures were discussed in the opening post. I will include them in a possible primer, if there is demand for it and the original poster doesn't mind.

Equipment:
6-8 of any Combination of
Umezawa's Jitte: Best Equipment in the game.
Sword of Fire and Ice: usually a way for decks to make up their lack of draw-spells and ane of the best equipments in the game. Protection from bounce and burn.
Sword of Light and Shadow: I personally prefer this sword over it's Firey counterpart due to the fact that it completely fits in this deck. The lifegain counters our somewhat painful lands at times and the second ability fits perfectly in the recursion plan.

Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void: Chalice 1 turn 1 screws over so many decks; This deck can do this while only losing 1 card (Dark ritual) this alone makes it warrant an auto 4-of in my eyes. One of teh key pices of a Stompy deck.
2-4 Trinisphere: More painful than Chalice, but it still buys you enough time to completely maul your opponent and royally screw over storm-based combo.

The sideboard is standard Black stuff, with creatures thrown in as the player prefers.
To give an idea of what I consider to be a good list, here's the one I am currently testing.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors
8 [CST] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
3 [US] Priest of Gix
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [SHM] Dusk Urchins

// Spells
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [U] Dark Ritual
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [LE] Bane of the Living
SB: 4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator


Everyone feel happy to criticize and/or add on to this. it'd be a good step towards establishment to get a primer written out. I'm quite certain this dekc has more potential than people are led to believe.

EDIT; apparently forgot to discuss Tombstalker, Contamination lock and Smallpox. I'll do that if there's interest in the deck and the establishing of a primer. Someone else is free to do this though, since I'm not a fan of either of the options, because they're all too dependant on certain cards to work decently and this deck doesn't want more dead cards than necessary in it's hand. I'd say it falls under the danger of cool things. Also, the deck is full, like, no room for fancy stuff.
EDIT: And Gathan Raiders. Haven't tested it myself. Completely up for grabs.

GGoober
05-06-2008, 11:49 AM
Tombstalker + Gathan Raiders + Stinkweed Imp should be run together. I've played this set together and they work perfectly. You don't usually cast Stinky if you have Tombstalker in hand. Gathan Raiders allows you to discard Stinky and dredge 5 to play Tombstalker immediately the turn after.

Elficidium
05-06-2008, 12:12 PM
Tombstalker + Gathan Raiders + Stinkweed Imp should be run together. I've played this set together and they work perfectly. You don't usually cast Stinky if you have Tombstalker in hand. Gathan Raiders allows you to discard Stinky and dredge 5 to play Tombstalker immediately the turn after.
This might be strong, but I don't think this deck has the room to run 2 more creatures that don't draw cards or give you a serious tempo advantage. We also do not at any point want to get hellbent, unlike Dragon stompy, where the Raiders are indeed very strong. I can't imagine wanting to discard anything except maybe excess chrome moxen or Dark Rituals once you have Chalice @ 1. Both of these don't happen very often. I also see some dissynergy with possible sword of Light and Shadow creature returning, since you seem to be keen on emptying your graveyard.

I'm willing to try this, but I can't see what I should cut for the raiders and Tombstalker in for example my list posted above. Care to help?

GGoober
05-06-2008, 04:42 PM
I am not a particular big fan of Priest of Gix, and I cut him off for Gathan Raiders. To me, Gix has a good play early game, but he is an bad topdeck unless you can spend the mana equipping creatures. He has too small of a frail body, although he does allow us to generate 2BB to cast many of our creatures.

One main problem I had with the deck in testing is that Grinning Demon gets blocked all day long, when it doesn't you smash face. I've tested Loxodon Warhammer and as much as people hate this card, it is pretty strong for Demon Stompy. I still like Sword of Light and Shadow over Loxodon Warhammer but sometimes Warhammer just wins games, e.g. over goblins that chump your big dudes with SGC tokens.

Gathan Raiders + Stinky has proven to be a good combo while holding on to Tombstalker. I even tried Smallpox in the deck to get some early synergy and a Tombstalker out second turn. A good play goes: 1st turn Gathan Raiders, 2nd turn discard Stinky, play Tombstalker. A 3/3 body is still in general good, better than a 2/1 (Gix) IMO. If you run discard with Gathan Raiders and Smallpox, Sword of Light and Shadow also helps to recover any of the creatures you've discarded. It's true that this deck doesn't reach hellbent as soon as Dragon Stompy, but I've been in many situations where I just dump my hand out asap (if the opponent doesn't play mass-removal).

Keep discussing, but this has been the Demon Stompy build that I have been testing out.

Elficidium
05-07-2008, 06:57 AM
Keep discussing, but this has been the Demon Stompy build that I have been testing out.
I'm going to test some matchups in the coming weeks so I can write a serious primer (pretty much finish what i started). I'll be sure to add all those cards, with sufficient explanation, to the card possibilities. It'd be good to have multiple builds present, just so people can see that the deck is adaptable to taste/meta.

Melwis
05-07-2008, 01:47 PM
I have a few questions & suggestions about this deck:

I am a bit worrid that the deck since it has a rather nasty anti-synergy (is this what you call it?) one of them which has already been mentioned, namely Dark Ritual + Chalice. However, both these cards are key in the deck so I guess you have no choice but to go with them together (Dark Ritual works as Chrome food later on I guess). Another desynergy (or is this what you call it perhaps?) is both Chalice on 2 & Sphere together with Jitte. How often do you find these things to crash into each other? Is it OK if you go with SoLS and/or Warhammer instead of Jitte or is Jitte just to good?

I also would like to point out that I think SoLS is SICK in the deck and I would probably go with atleast 3 copies of it anyway. I would probably consider it even if it didn't have the recursion thing going but since this is also perfect in the deck it just seems like a bonus :)

I also wonder why nobody is playing with Crystal Vein? Is Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors really enough? It's still only 8 cards and for a deck focusing so much on getting 2-3 mana on turn 1 I think it's a bit strange that Crystal Vein hasn't been mentioned (perhaps it has tho I haven't read everything and if it has been I apologize).

That will have to do for now :)

Sanguine Voyeur
05-07-2008, 02:22 PM
I also wonder why nobody is playing with Crystal Vein? Is Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors really enough? Crystal Vein hurts colour consistency and might also hurt tempo if used to accelerate.

(is this what you call it?)Although disynergy isn't a word, that's the commonly used term.

Melwis
05-07-2008, 05:17 PM
Crystal Vein hurts colour consistency and might also hurt tempo if used to accelerate.

I realise it doesn't come close to either Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors but I think it's still a viable thing to go with since it will give you more first turn Trinispheres, Chalice of the Voids and creatures.


Although disynergy isn't a word, that's the commonly used term.

Disynergy :rolleyes: Strange :tongue: I think anti-synergy/desynergy sounds WAAY better ;P


Anyways, I tought about yet another awful disynergy with Trinisphere. What the hell do you do with Chrome Mox once Sphere is out? >_<

And once again, how often do this terrible disynergies happen (the ones I mentioned in my earlier posts and the one which I mentioned now)?

Also I tought I'd give a shot at a list just because it's so fun making them!

Creatures(20):
-----------
4 x Graveborn Muse (4)
4 x Phyrexian Rager (3)
4 x Stinkweed Imp (3)
3 x Dusk Urchins (3)
3 x Shriekmaw (5)
2 x Tombstalker (8)

Instants(4):
----------
4 x Dark Ritual (1)

Artifacts(18):
-----------
4 x Sword of Light and Shadow (3)
4 x Chalice of the Void (1/2)
4 x Chrome Mox (0)
4 x Trinisphere (3)

Lands(18):
-------
8 x Swamp
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Tomb
2 x Tomb of Urami

It is focusing a bit more on control than straight forward aggro and using alot of the draw-creatures available (Dusk Urchins with SoLS has to be godly imo).

Tell me if you think i'm doing the wrong choices :)

Sanguine Voyeur
05-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Anyways, I tought about yet another awful disynergy with Trinisphere. What the hell do you do with Chrome Mox once Sphere is out? >_< I occasionally run into this with Dragon Stompy. I usually just hold on to it until I can pitch it to Raiders, I have nothing better to do with the mana, or I need Hellbent more then two mana.

MasterC
05-12-2008, 06:04 AM
Has anyone yet considered Cranial Extraction as a sideboard card?
Seems like a good option for me, especially because the deck is able to play it turn two at a high rate.

CalebD
05-12-2008, 04:22 PM
I ran what you guys are calling demon stompy in the flash grand prix, losing horribly to a field full of fish decks. My only wins were against gobbs and burn, odd for a negator deck.

The question isn't whether to run dark rit and chalice, the question is whether to run dark rit or chrome mox. If you run both, your mana/accel looks like this:

18 land
4 mox
4 rit
=26. That's a control/combo-level dedicated mana base, only this is an aggro deck. That's horribly bad in topdeck mode, as I found out at that GP.

That aside, there are a few times when the rit/chalice issue does come up, say when you'd like to ritual into your bane of the living to clear the board.

As far as temporary mana goes, something to ask yourself is this: Why doesn't FS run lotus petal? We tested it, believe me, and it suxord. Temporary mana isn't going to help you cast your threat next turn, and is a crappy draw post turn one.

That being said, here's my list:

// Lands
7 [MM] Swamp (4)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [US] Contamination
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

Note that a contamination soft lock can be obtained three different ways. Blossom, sword of light and shadow, or Stinkweed Imp dredging. Through testing I've used each method successfully, and wouldn't take any of them out.

After testing, I think 4 graveborns is the correct number. Two in play nets you four extra draws a turn, all which can be compensated with a jitte or a sword. Sick stuff. If your life is too low you can always let contamination resolve first sacking one, so that you have two graveborn triggers but one zombie in play, netting you two cards.

Keep on testing and innovating, guys. This is good stuff.

Richard
07-08-2008, 05:03 AM
Canker Abomination 2 B/G B/G

Creature - Treefolk Horror
When Canker Abomination comes into play, choose an opponent. Canker Abomination comes into play with a -1/-1 counter it on for each creature that player controls.
6/6

Will it be better then Grinning Demon?

Kuma
07-08-2008, 10:32 AM
Possibly, but I really doubt it as most decks in the format will have at least one creature in play by the time you can cast him. Grinning Demon can also be cast for 3 if you can't get that 4th mana, which has helped sometimes.

I'd say keep him in the board for creatureless decks, but Negator fits that role better.

I guess he's worth testing...

Anyway, here's what I currently run:

9x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Tomb of Urami
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

2x Tombstalker
3x Stinkweed Imp
4x Grinning Demon
3x Bane of the Living
4x Graveborn Muse
3x Dusk Urchins
4x Shriekmaw

4x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
2x Profane Command

SB:
1x Bane of the Living
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
3x Phyrexian Negator
3x Trinisphere

fourleafedmonkey
07-11-2008, 06:15 AM
I have a quick question: How playable is smallpox in this deck?

It acts as removal, tempo gain, combos very well with tombstalker and stinky.

I think it could be very viable.

Bourgeoise
07-11-2008, 07:35 AM
Excuse if this seems rude but there is a reason that you should read a thread and understand how a deck works before you post. I'm tired of seeing posts like this all over different threads.

Chalice aggro decks typically do not run 1cc or 2cc spells if they can help it since they want to put out a chalice of the void at 1 and then 2 in order to disrupt a large portion of the format. Jitte being usually the sole exception due to how useful and powerful it can be. The curve starts at 3 for a reason.

Another reason smallpox would be bad in particular is that in this type of deck 2B is a lot easier to cast than BB, and if you were to cast it you would have to sac a land on top of other effects which would hurt you as much or more than your opponent. There is no direct synergy in the deck with smallpox. By synergy I mean that there is a card you would want to discard anyways (maybe stinkweed since you get it back but does not seem beneficial to me to do this) and smallpox helps you get that, or if there is a land that has a beneficial effect for you when it hits the bin and smallpox would help you do that, there is none of that here.

Just to hit all the points here there is also no real tempo gain, if anything it would result in a tempo loss. You cast smallpox you lose either a 2c land or one of your black sources they lose a land, you will probably have a creature out unless you make this your turn two play (which would be even worse if you are arguing to use it for creature removal) since this is an aggro deck. In the end I think you just end up losing the same if not more than your opponent and you are down one card in hand overall in a deck with already low drawing capabilities.

Kuma
07-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Well, I took Demon Stompy to my local tournament yesterday. I finished 2-2, but was mostly happy with how the deck performed. The list I took was the one I posted a few posts ago, except with +1 Trinisphere -1 Phyrexian Negator in the sideboard, because of the expected metagame. Turns out it was a good call.

Round one vs. Boros Deck Wins with a black splash for Bob and ??

He drops a turn one Isamaru and a turn two Goblin Legionnaire, but I weather the early storm with a Stinkweed Imp chump block on his Legionnaire and a Chalice at one followed by a Chalice at two shuts him out of the game and causes him to scoop.

I side in 4 Trinisphere for 2 Tombstalkers and 2 Profane Commands hoping to slow him down. He starts off the same as last game with an Isamaru before I can play my Chalice at one. He follows up with a Legionnaire again, and to make a long story short, I deal myself too much damage and he kills me with Fireblast.

Game three he keeps a questionable hand, but leads with a Savannah Lions. I again play a Chalice at one, but this time he has no turn two play and I follow with a Chalice at two. My life total gets kind of low, but a Grinning Demon wielding a Sword of Light and Shadow goes the distance.

1-0

Round two vs. BW Knights (HellFire)

Game one I equip a Bane of the Living with a SoLS and he can't do anything about it.

Game two, I side in Engineered Plagues and a Bane of the Living for Tombstalkers, Profane Commands and a Dusk Urchins (you'll soon notice a pattern). He gets the Chalice at one & two treatment and can't do anything.

2-0

Round three vs. Bryn Argoll Thresh (yawg07)

Game one I start off pretty well. I drop a Stinkweed Imp and he Forces it. I cast a Dusk Urchins and end up drawing two cards off of it, but I'm stuck on three mana, one of which is an Ancient Tomb (ouch). I evoke two Shriekmaws to kill two of his Swans, but I deal myself way too much damage and a Lightning Bolt kills me.

I side in 4 Trinisphere for 2 Tombstalker and 2 Profane Command. This game goes much better. I drop a Chalice at one Immediately, but he Forces it. I follow with a Trinisphere next turn which really slows him down. Chalices at one and two follow soon after, and I cast a Shriekmaw at some point to kill a Swans. Shriekmaw and a Graveborn Muse eventually kill him.

Game three was one of those games where Thresh draws an amazing hand and just wins. He had two Daze in his opening hand and he drew all four before the end of the game. Mongoose and goyf bash my face in despite my best efforts to evoke Shriekmaws (one of them was double dazed). I really didn't have a prayer that game. By the time I could actually try to stabilize I was so low on life that casting anything would be my doom.

2-1

Round four vs. RBg Goblins

I'm still kicking myself for this one. Game one I keep a hand of Stinkweed Imp, Chrome Mox, and five land. I tell myself I can hold him back with a recurring Imp while I hopefully hit another creature in my first two draws. Well, he goes first, drops a turn one Lackey and kills me turn three or four with a massive Piledriver. Imp gets Wierdinged and Tarfired. I really should have thrown my hand back, but with his draw it probably didn't matter.

Game two I bring in Plagues and a Bane of the Living for the usual suspects. I lead with a Chalice at one and find out after the game that his opening hand was Lackey, Vial, Fanatic, Fanatic, Tarfire, Land, Piledriver. Needless to say, I won that one. For kicks, I decided to count how much damage I did to myself that game. I took 23 points of self-inflicted damage. Something has to be done about that, because there's no way you're going to win many games with that kind of self-punishment.

Game three he Thoughtseizes me and takes an Engineered Plague. He drops a Lackey, but I have a blocker. Said blocker is unfortunately Warren Wierdinged away. Lackey hits and drops a Matron. I Shriekmaw the Lackey only to see another one dropped. At this point I'm out of creatures, so when he swings with the second Lackey, I sac my Tomb of Urami for a token to block. Well, on his next turn that gets Wierded too, and he kills me.

2-2

Thoughts:

<3 Shriekmaw. Seriously, don't run less than four.

Tombstalker and Profane Command were terrible and probably don't belong in the deck. The fourth Bane of the Living does. I'm going to replace them with three mana creatures to improve consistency.

We deal ourselves way too much damage. We have to cut damage wherever we can. I'm cutting the Tombs of Urami for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and a Volrath's Stronghold. Chuckles (Grinning Demon) and Graveborn Muse are too good to cut, but maybe we could stand three Muse as we probably won't want to see it in multiples and it can be hard to cast. I'm also going to add two Loxodon Warhammers over a sword and a Jitte for extra lifegain, because we need it badly.

Richard
07-14-2008, 02:47 PM
@ Kuma, thanks for posting your tournament report!

I agree, self-inflicted damage is a problem. But I believe more life gain, less damage deal is not the answer.
It only slows you down and the keyword for this deck is speed!

I've been toying around with several builds and I believe this deck has to go the 'aggressive' way.
No Bitterblossom/Contamination lock, no Dusk Urchins, no Profane Command, etc.

Dark Ritual into a Phyrexian Negator is one of the best (easy) plays Demon Stompy can make.
Plus Dark Ritual and Phyrexian Negator have synergy with Tombstalker, another bomb!


My latest decklist:

16 Lands
04 Ancient Tomb
04 City of Traitors
06 Swamp
01 Tomb of Urami
01 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

22 Creatures
04 Graveborn Muse
04 Shriekmaw
04 Phyrexian Negator
04 Priest of Gix
03 Stinkweed Imp
03 Tombstalker

15 Spells
04 Chalice of the Void
04 Chrome Mox
04 Dark Ritual
03 Trinisphere

07 Equipment
04 Sword of Light and Shadow
03 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
04 Bane of the Living
04 Engineered Plague
04 Leyline of the Void
03 Winter Orb

Bane of the Living replace Phyrexian Negator against aggro matchups
Winter Orb is a strong card against some of our weak matchups, Landstill and MUC for example (although Trinisphere MD does help A LOT),
where it can replace some copies of Shriekmaw.


Some doubts/questions:
1. I'm not sure about Priest of Gix, siding in Bane of the Living is no fun with PoG and Stinkweed Imp.
2. Sword of Light and Shadow > Sword of Fire and Ice in a Negator build? Maybe SoFaI instead of Umezawa's Jitte?
(Dark Ritual and Trinisphere love 3cmc, combat damage to a player is not a big drawback with flying/trample creatures)
3. What is the most optimal Land/CM/DR count?


I would very much appreciate comments and thoughts to improve this version of Demon Stompy!

Xurcks
07-15-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm playtesting Canker Abomination in the slot of stinkweed imp for a total agressive blowout in my Demon Stompy Deck...it has been good so far.....with the acceleration (Mox , ritual and 2 mana lands) and the lack of creatures in most decks it's been a consistent 6/6 or 5/5 , hardly smaller , without any significant drawback.
For four mana , i think it's a great deal.
Thoughts?

Phantom
07-15-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm playtesting Canker Abomination in the slot of stinkweed imp for a total agressive blowout in my Demon Stompy Deck...it has been good so far.....with the acceleration (Mox , ritual and 2 mana lands) and the lack of creatures in most decks it's been a consistent 6/6 or 5/5 , hardly smaller , without any significant drawback.
For four mana , i think it's a great deal.
Thoughts?

Yeah, I saw him and thought he was better than Grinning Demon in the current meta. I had been turning toward a more controlling version of Demon Stompy (Bitterblossoms, Stinkweeds, Recurring Nightmare, Graveborn Muses, and Dusk Urchins) but hyper aggressive might be a great way to go. You get Negator, Grinning Demon, and Canker Abomination to start, with Shriekmaw and Bane of the Living to clear a path.

Xurcks
07-15-2008, 03:08 PM
@Phantom:

Yeah , that's the way i'm trying the deck right now . Also , Bane of the Living has been sweeping the floor with more goblins lately.
I think a controlling way would also be great , and they could be switched depending on expected meta. Can you post your recent list?

Phantom
07-15-2008, 03:42 PM
I've been testing this (though not near enough to draw good conclusions):

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
7 [10E] Swamp (1)
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [LE] Bane of the Living
3 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [LRW] Profane Command
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere

All the 2-ofs are test spots. It's possible that some number of Trinis belong in the main, but as I know exactly what they would give me (and for that matter take away) I'm simply boarding them in for now.

Xurcks
07-15-2008, 03:51 PM
I like the looks of your deck and the idea of recurring nightmare (especially with Bitterblossom and Stinkweed) .Your sideboard is the same i'm trying right now. Only thing i would exchange would be the SoLaS for SoFaI.
With that many flyers , plus bitterblossom providing an endless surplus of evil faeries to be used with either equip and recurring nightmares , i think the gravedigging part of SoLaS would not be needed , and SoFaI would give you another great source of card advantage , IMHO.

Sims
07-15-2008, 04:26 PM
I like the looks of your deck and the idea of recurring nightmare (especially with Bitterblossom and Stinkweed) .Your sideboard is the same i'm trying right now. Only thing i would exchange would be the SoLaS for SoFaI.
With that many flyers , plus bitterblossom providing an endless surplus of evil faeries to be used with either equip and recurring nightmares , i think the gravedigging part of SoLaS would not be needed , and SoFaI would give you another great source of card advantage , IMHO.


But between Bitterblossom and Graveborn Muse alone, the lifegain on SoLS really starts to shine. Toss in the fact that he's going to likely Dredge Stinkweeds from time to time, the Recursion between it and Nightmare allow him to get back any of the critters that he may be dredging into his yard. I think SoLS is a better fit here than SoFI.

Xurcks
07-15-2008, 06:20 PM
Oh , my mistake... i forgot to count bitterblossom minus life too ¬¬
Yeah , in that case SoLS is actually better in a control shell , makes it harder to kill yourself with self inflicted pain and allows for more time to recur creatures, giving CA anyway :wink: .

Sanguine Voyeur
07-15-2008, 06:29 PM
Here's a list I've been toying with, just though I'd throw it out there.

// Lands
6 Swamp
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Badlands

// Creatures
4 Stronghold Rats
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Shriekmaw
4 Jagged Poppet

// Spells
3 Nihilistic Glee
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Delirium Skeins
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Offalsnout
SB: 4 Engineered Plague

Testing has shown that it destroys control and combo decks, but aggro isn't so easy. Jagged Poppet was a two of, but it proved to be too fantastic.

Kuma
07-15-2008, 06:54 PM
Okay, so I decided to do a little goldfish testing to compare my more traditional list versus a more hyper-aggressive list. I played each list fifteen times, starting with the Traditional list. Here are the decks I used:

Traditional list:

Mana Sources (24)
10x Swamp
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Chrome Mox

Threats (25)
3x Stinkweed Imp
4x Grinning Demon
4x Graveborn Muse
4x Shriekmaw
3x Dusk Urchins
4x Bane of the Living
3x Bitterblossom

Other (11)
4x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chalice of the Void

Hyper-aggressive

Mana Sources (26)
7x Swamp
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Tomb of Urami
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual

Threats (23)
4x Priest of Gix
4x Canker Abomination
4x Graveborn Muse
4x Shriekmaw
4x Phyrexian Negator
3x Bane of the Living

Other (11)
4x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chalice of the Void

Results:

Traditional: Average kill turn - 5.47 Average self-inflicted damage - 7.47 Average life gained - 7.67

Hyper-aggressive: Average kill turn - 5.27 Average self-inflicted damage - 3.27 Average life gained - .80

For being so-called "Hyper-aggressive", the second deck wasn't any faster than the first. It did, however, inflict far less damage on itself and gain far less life. It doesn't show up in my results, but the Hyper-aggressive deck mulliganed a lot more than the traditional build. Combined with the dangers of running Phyrexian Negator, I'm not sure the Hyper-aggressive build's merits outweigh its downfalls.

I have to say that I really don't like Dark Ritual and in the deck. Due to all the double lands and colorless-intensive casting costs, Dark Ritual usually only lets you drop a card one turn earlier than normal instead of the usual two. Combined with the dis-synergy with Chalice, I don't think it's worth it.

Priest of Gix, on the other hand, might be worth another look. I only once didn't have something to do with the mana it generated, and it lead to some ridiculous turn one plays like Priest, Priest, Morph. The deck is loaded at CMC 3, and it helps us get black mana. The problem is cutting something for it...

There was one game where I was stuck on three mana with two Canker Abomination in my hand, in which Grinning Demon would have been much better. However, the life loss from Demon is not insignificant as the numbers show. Demon also enables combat tricks and morph confusion, which is not to be discounted. I guess it depends on the build, but right now I'm liking Chuckles a little better.

Bitterblossom and Bane of the Living are terrible together. [Agent Smith voice]One of these cards has a future. The other one does not.[/Agent Smith voice] Right now I'm thinking it's Bitterblossom.

Based on this testing, I think the best way to approach Demon Stompy is as a mid-range deck that takes a pounding in the early game, but ultimately will stabilize and control the game's tempo. I think Phantom is barking up the right tree here, although I'm not sure about Tombstalker, which has been horrible for me, Profane Command, which has been mediocre, and Recurring Nightmare/Bitterblossom, which I haven't tested, but seems difficult to establish.

Illissius
07-15-2008, 07:28 PM
Sanguine Voyeur: You expect to consistently cast Jagged Poppet with four sources of red mana? Really?


Just brainstorming here, but what about something like this for a "hyperaggressive" build (which is what I've always thought was Demon Stompy's only chance for success, given that the Tomb/City/Mox manabase is not conducive to being controllish)?

4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Canker Abomination
4 Bane of the Living
4 Shriekmaw
4 Snuff Out
4 Sword of Fire and Ice (or Umezawa's Jitte?)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Perish

You hit the opponent absolutely as hard and fast as possible (between Negator, Priest, Snuff, Unmask, and Ritual), and load up on the removal, which clears the way for Negator and makes Canker Abomination suck less. I'm still sceptical about Priest of Gix, because he is only a 2/1, but he fits the theme. Another huge creature in that slot might be better, though. (It's too bad they all suck). What do people think of Unmask?

According to my calculations, 10 Swamps gives you a well over 80% chance of drawing one for Snuff Out by turn three, which while not the greatest, is tolerable, and the rest of the time you'll just have to hardcast it or pitch it to Mox or Unmask. (And obviously you'll want to have a source of black mana in every hand you keep, which is either going to be a Swamp which powers up Snuff Out, or a Chrome Mox you can pitch the Snuff Out to, so that works out pretty well). Snuff Out is too big of a tempo boost and too perfect for the deck's aims not to run it.

Bane of the Living is a card I haven't been a big fan of previously because it always seemed too slow, but upon actually applying my brain cells, I think it might be great (so yeah, I'm late to the party on this one). Being able to play it as either a 4/3 for :2::b::b: or a 2/2 for :3:, either of which are decent, or to clear entire armies out of the way of your giant monsters and leave a 4/3 behind, seems pretty good.

Sanguine Voyeur
07-15-2008, 07:35 PM
Sanguine Voyeur: You expect to consistently cast Jagged Poppet with four sources of red mana? Really?Eight counting the Mox, but yes there have been times when I've been unable to cast it. It's been fantastic but it's also typically the first or second thing to pitch to Mox, behind Rats. I think the risk is worth it.

Illissius
07-15-2008, 07:52 PM
The only thing you can pitch to Chrome Mox to be able to cast Jagged Poppet is Jagged Poppet. You're going to draw multiple copies less than 16% of the time. Anyways, adding more sources of :r: would be a sensible thing to do.

Xurcks
07-15-2008, 11:52 PM
Just brainstorming here, but what about something like this for a "hyperaggressive" build (which is what I've always thought was Demon Stompy's only chance for success, given that the Tomb/City/Mox manabase is not conducive to being controllish)?

4 Priest of Gix
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Canker Abomination
4 Bane of the Living
4 Shriekmaw
4 Snuff Out
4 Sword of Fire and Ice (or Umezawa's Jitte?)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Perish




That is pretty much the agressive decklist i've been trying out, only taking out the MD Unmasks for 2 SoFaI and using 4 Jittes to help surviving , and swapping the Priests of Gix for Grinning Demons.
Also , SB Trinisphere in place of the Perish , but they are also a good tech versus Thresh decks . I will try them out and see.

Valtrix
07-16-2008, 12:29 AM
So, people are talking about canker abomination as a possible slot for the stompy. Since it essentially costs 2BB, has anybody considered the new Ashling the Extinguisher? Yeah, perhaps the stats don't justify the ability (In light of other choices). It seems like it could be a good way to keep putting pressure on the opponent. However, I don't have a ton of experience with demon stompy, so perhaps that's not what it needs. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Phantom
07-16-2008, 03:00 AM
Well, after some testing I ditched Tombstalker, Recurring Nightmare, Tomb of Urami, and Profane Command. They were all disappointing to some degree (though I still took 7 out of 10 from a 5C Thresh list).

Here's the new list I'm going to test:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [10E] Swamp (1)
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [LE] Bane of the Living
3 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [EVE] Canker Abomination

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere



The deck really needs double black to click, so I upped the land count a bit and threw in Canker Abominations to test. The deck really does draw a ton.

@ Priest of Gix: Never liked him. Facilitates some cool early plays, but sucks most of the other times. Not exactly Cloud of Faeries.

@ Bane and Bitterblossom: I'm failing to see the problem here. When BB is in play, I'm usually in great position, and will just flip Bane for double black. When I need to flip him for more to wipe the opponents board, I just do it, and Bitterblossom [b]starts generating a new army for me.

@ Unmask/Snuff Out: I personally don't like Unmask at all. It's 2 cards or 3:b: for a Thoughtseize. Sadly I've searched for quality discard and came up about empty. Mind Shatter seems the most promising, but untargeted removal seems iffy. Snuff Out's ok, but we do have a lot of good creature based removal that can also carry equipment. Plus, it's debatable whether Rend Flesh is superior.

@ Aggressive vs Control: Some people might claim that Chalice Aggro can only work in a hyper aggressive shell, but I disagree. Faerie Stompy isn't insanely aggressive anymore either. It runs a strong early game with Sea Drake and Serendib, and backs them up with control creatures like Mulldrifter and Sower of Temptation.

I think black can follow suit with quality early drops and great control cards to follow them up and refill our hands. I think I might be on the right path here, but certainly wouldn't discourage people from pursuing other paths with the deck. Quite simply what we have here is an embarrassment of riches.

Richard
07-16-2008, 06:33 AM
@ Phantom: I like to see the 2-offs are gone, I think it's a nice list for the more controlling version.

However I would certainly play 3 Trinisphere main. Perhaps -1 land, -2 double black creatures? I think 19 land + 4 Chrome Mox is more then enough. You can always play Grinning Demon in the Canker Abomination slot when double black hurts a little (morph).

Trinisphere is a bomb against a big part of the field: Burn, Combo, Thresh. And it is one of the few answers to P. Dreadnought decks; (Because of the life loss) Stinkweed Imp alone won't help.

Edit:
Also, when you play Trinisphere main, you can use the SB slots for Thorn of Amethyst, "Demon Stax" muhaha...
Or Winter Orb as I mentioned earlier.

Illissius
07-16-2008, 07:34 AM
Snuff Out's ok, but we do have a lot of good creature based removal that can also carry equipment. Plus, it's debatable whether Rend Flesh is superior.


Are any of them free? The difference between three mana and zero mana is huge. Compared to Rend Flesh, Snuff Out is like it comes with a Black Lotus built in. Nonetheless, it could be that Snuff Out and Phyrexian Negator are sort of a package. If you want to be aggressive, play both these cards. If you don't, play neither.

They really need to print more monsters for :2::b: which don't suck. I mean I'd play Skittering Horror if it didn't conflict with most of the deck's removal, which is creature based. :2::b: is a much better mana cost than :2::b::b:. It's to the point where I've even considered the Skulking creatures -- Knight, Fugitive, and Tar Pit Warrior. Main drawbacks: can't carry equipment, Mogg Fanatic, Umezawa's Jitte, Gempalm Incinerator, Maze of Ith, only 3 power. Probably not worthy, but it's illustrative of the dearth of choices we have.

Sanguine Voyeur
07-16-2008, 08:38 AM
The only thing you can pitch to Chrome Mox to be able to cast Jagged Poppet is Jagged Poppet. You're going to draw multiple copies less than 16% of the time. Anyways, adding more sources of :r: would be a sensible thing to do.I just pitch Poppet to play Poppet, it works out perfectly! But seriously, Gathan Raiders can also be pitched to Mox, but the deck could use more red sources. I was more concerned with imporving the aggro match-up. Ashling, Warhammer, and an additional Shriekmaw main deck didn't even help.

gnurbel2000
07-16-2008, 09:37 AM
what about mercenary knight from Portal?

Creature - Human Mercenary Knight 4/4, 2B (3)
When Mercenary Knight comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard a creature card.

http://magiccards.info/po/en/22.html

It could work well with Stinkweed Imp and Sword of Light and Shadow.

Kuma
07-16-2008, 12:03 PM
I've tried to build engines with Stinkweed Imp, but the problem is that they require you to have too many cards to function. For a while, I ran Stinky + Tombstalker, + Deepcavern Imp, but the problem was that I almost never drew all the pieces. Of course, when I had all three they usually lead to a turn two Tombstalker, but individually they were terrible.

Aside from being hard to find, Mercenary Knight is too situational to be good. And even when you can cast him, you're discarding a threat which sets you up for card disadvantage. We're not Dragon Stompy -- our goal isn't to achieve Hellbent. It's actually quite the opposite. Demon Stompy draws more cards than any other Chalice Aggro deck, with the possible exception of Faerie Stompy, and that is one of its strengths.

The lack of quality three drops is part of the reason that Grinning Demon might be better than Canker Abomination. Grinning Demon can be cast for :3: in a pinch, and can flip to do combat tricks.

As for Ashling, he'd have to beat out Graveborn Muse or Canker Abomination/Grinning Demon as the deck probably shouldn't have its curve increased anymore. I don't think he's better than either of those cards.

I've already said my piece about hyper-aggressive builds so I'll leave it at that...

DevilishEyes
07-17-2008, 10:30 AM
Here's my list:

DemonStompy

//Manabase
4# Ancient Tomb
4# City of Traitors
7# Swamp
2# Tomb of Urami
2# Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4# Chrome Mox
4# Dark Ritual

//Creatures
2# Ashling, the Extinguisher
3# Bane of the Living
4# Dusk Urchins
4# Graveborn Muse
3# Grinning Demon
4# Shriekmaw

//Utility/ Equipment
4# Unmask
4# Chalice of the Void
3# Sword of Light and Shadow
2# Umezawa’s Jitte


//Sideboard
4# Yixlid Jailer
3# Trinisphere
4# Pithing Needle
4# Engineered Plague

Explanation:

//Manabase
Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Swamps, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Chrome Mox, each one belong to the standards in DemonStompy.
Dark Ritual for it's ability to make a really explosive start, it is just too good to stay out of this deck. I do like to play Tomb of Urami, as a two-of, I think it's pretty good and that damage doesn't really count, at least, not in the first turns. The 5/5 flyer actually won me quite a pair of games.

//Creatures
I'm currently testing two Ashling the Extinguishers. They look quite powerfull, decent body and just fun with SoLaS.
Three Bane of the Living, 4/3 is powerful enough and it's ability to sweep the board on your opponents side is just awesome.
Four Dusk Urchins, carddrawingmachine, fun with SoLaS (more cards, anyone?), decent body, though less than other creatures in the deck.
Graveborn Muse, decent body and a carddrawing machine.
Grinning Demon is simply the best threat in the deck, putting your opponent on a huge clock.
Four Shriekmaw, because Shriekmaw is Shriekmaw and I wouldn't want to play less than four. Fear combined with SoLaS is fun and the removal is very useful in most situations!

//Utility / Equipment
Unmask might look a bit random, but actually, I kind of like it, it improves the combo matchup and destroys your opponents answers to your threats and locks.
Four Chalice is standard.
Three Sword of Light and Shadow, and I'd rather play four of them, damn, this thing is awesome. Better than Jitte in this deck, at least, I think so.
Two Jittes, just good, removal, lifegain and boost in one card. Maybe I'll put Loxodon Warhammer in this deck, instead of Jitte, trample just looks really good on most bad asses here.

Sideboard must be clear by now.

And holy crap, that's one load of text xD

Pulp_Fiction
07-19-2008, 11:22 PM
I was trying to find some good creatures to fit into this deck and for a long time I was thinking about Yukora, the Prisoner but the exact wording on the card is it if "leaves play" you have to sacrifice all of your non-ogre creatures so that card could potentially be in the deck as a 2x-of but Plague Sliver would probably just be strictly better. I haven't tested either but I can't think of a situation where something like Phyrexian Scuta or Grinning Demon wouldn't just be better.

One card that I am about to start testing is Grotesque Hybrid http://www.cardkingdom.com/index.php?sid=978032156&keyword=hybrid&main=catalog&catalog_id=125 it blocks and kills Goyf all day and is essentially StP proof. Now a card like this where you actually will use the discard outlet could possibly enable you to play Tombstalker but I still think Tombstalker is to situational to run in this deck. I mean you so rarely have enough cards in your graveyard to make Tombstalker worthwhile I am not sure he should even be run.

Xurcks
07-20-2008, 06:36 AM
@Pulp_Fiction :

I tried these options , plague sliver , yukora and phyrexian scuta in my old version of demon stompy , before shriekmaw and dusk urchin's printing.
Grinning Demon was always better than any of these options (maybe not Plague against Meathooks , but anyway =P) , for the morph versatility and size , and I used to place Scuta along him , but Shriekmaw is just plain better now.

About Hybrid , it has no place in this deck really.
Too small power ratio for it's cost and Shriekmaw is just better in this slot , also in the situation you said , killing goyf as it comes to be and with evasion to boot , not needing to create card disavantage for this.


And Tombstalker , IMO , has no place in this deck , because we don't want to put things in the graveyard , and with no delve help , it's just too overcosted to be effective here.

Happy Gilmore
07-20-2008, 06:54 AM
@Pulp_Fiction :

I tried these options , plague sliver , yukora and phyrexian scuta in my old version of demon stompy , before shriekmaw and dusk urchin's printing.
Grinning Demon was always better than any of these options (maybe not Plague against Meathooks , but anyway =P) , for the morph versatility and size , and I used to place Scuta along him , but Shriekmaw is just plain better now.

About Hybrid , it has no place in this deck really.
Too small power ratio for it's cost and Shriekmaw is just better in this slot , also in the situation you said , killing goyf as it comes to be and with evasion to boot , not needing to create card disavantage for this.


And Tombstalker , IMO , has no place in this deck , because we don't want to put things in the graveyard , and with no delve help , it's just too overcosted to be effective here.

I always felt that the best thing about this deck was being able to use Persecute to Gain huge amount of card advantage, what happend with that?

I would also love to see more thought put into making Reccuring nightmare good.

Edit:

Did any of you realize that Priest of Gix was a Cleric? That makes Priest\Priest\Rotlung\Nightmare into infinite 2\2s. Given this is more fun then practical, but each piece is good on its own.

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Shriekmaw
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Priest of Gix
4 Rotlung Reanimator
4 Hynotic Specter


4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Jitte
2 Recurring Nightmare
4 Persecute\ Unmask (I like this idea a lot)

moOnsteak
07-20-2008, 07:08 AM
^
cause when I have to pay for :2::b::b:, I want to cast threat, not disruption. .
Cast Ashling, Muse, or unmorph Bane / Demon in example. .
I think Unmask do this discard job better than Persecute. .

Xurcks
07-20-2008, 07:17 AM
I dropped Persecute in favor of SB Trinisphere.
If i was to try discard again in this deck (as my old controllish build used) , I would use Mind Shatter. Against most decks , it was more or as useful as persecute , with the bonus possibility of getting even more cards out of the opp hand sometimes.

Happy Gilmore
07-20-2008, 09:29 AM
hmm, I just realized that you can create a Infinite creature loop using only black cards.

Crypt Champion + Recurring Nightmare + Priest of Gix + Rotlung Reanimator.

With just a little tweeking you could even play Crypt Champion as a beater in this deck.

Barook
07-20-2008, 09:48 AM
hmm, I just realized that you can create a Infinite creature loop using only black cards.

Crypt Champion + Recurring Nightmare + Priest of Gix + Rotlung Reanimator.

With just a little tweeking you could even play Crypt Champion as a beater in this deck.
How is double Priest/Nightmare/Rotlung a non-black infinite combo? :confused:

Anyway, isn't Dusk Urchins also damn sexy with Nightmare? Swing with it a few times, sac it (to get a CiP creature back in the best case), draw a few cards and get it back later fresh and new without any -1/-1 counters. Sounds useable to me.

Plus, Nightmare would be a pretty good combo partner with Stinkweed Imp.

Edit: Just saw that Phantom already tested it...

Xurcks
07-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Rotlung Reanimator , Recurring Nightmare and one Priest in play and other on GY.
Sacrifice Priest in play to Nightmare , the one in GY comes into play , adding BBB and Nightmare goes to hand , and a token is made from Rotlung trigger.
Play nightmare using reanimated priest's mana , sacrifice , reanimate other.
Rinse and repeat.
Could be interesting ^^

fourleafedmonkey
07-20-2008, 01:38 PM
Rotlung Reanimator , Recurring Nightmare and one Priest in play and other on GY.
Sacrifice Priest in play to Nightmare , the one in GY comes into play , adding BBB and Nightmare goes to hand , and a token is made from Rotlung trigger.
Play nightmare using reanimated priest's mana , sacrifice , reanimate other.
Rinse and repeat.
Could be interesting ^^

I dont know if I agree with a four card combo that doesn't quite fit into the deck [rotlung and recurring nightmare] is a good way to improve this deck. A seperate deck with this and maybe beseech the queen or something may be playable, but i dont know if it would do well in a stompy build.

Happy Gilmore
07-20-2008, 04:39 PM
I dont know if I agree with a four card combo that doesn't quite fit into the deck [rotlung and recurring nightmare] is a good way to improve this deck. A seperate deck with this and maybe beseech the queen or something may be playable, but i dont know if it would do well in a stompy build.

The only change I made to my initial list was to add Rotlung Reanimator, which is a house in a number of matchups anway. Primarily against Control but it also would be very good against a deck like goblins. Being able to sack Rotlung to put a Shriekmaw and a token into play is awsome. I just love the idea of using Nightmare, especially since it protects your threats against STP.

The combo is fun but mostly irrelevant. The important thing being that you can create an infinite loop and that every component is good on its own (a major downfall of most cool combos).

Roman Candle
07-20-2008, 04:43 PM
especially since it protects your threats against STP.

Except how it doesn't. You can only trigger Nightmare as a sorcery.

Kuma
07-20-2008, 07:02 PM
One card that I am about to start testing is Grotesque Hybrid http://www.cardkingdom.com/index.php?sid=978032156&keyword=hybrid&main=catalog&catalog_id=125 it blocks and kills Goyf all day and is essentially StP proof. Now a card like this where you actually will use the discard outlet could possibly enable you to play Tombstalker but I still think Tombstalker is to situational to run in this deck. I mean you so rarely have enough cards in your graveyard to make Tombstalker worthwhile I am not sure he should even be run.

When I first read this, I thought the idea had merit, but then I realized that Stinkweed Imp serves most of the functions you laid out for two less mana.

Stinky: Blocks and kills goyf, can optionally be played again for one card and 2B.
Grotesque: Blocks and kills goyf, can save it for the cost of one card.

Stinky: Flies.
Grotesque: Flies for the cost of one card.

Stinky: Costs 2B for a 1/2
Grotesque: Costs 4B for a 3/3

I don't think it's worth running a five mana creature whose only advantages over Stinky are size and pro StP when he does a worse job of being evasive while being difficult to cast. If we want to run a 5 CC card, it needs to be an absolute bomb.

Discard engines do not belong in this deck as they are too hard to establish and usually suck on their own. Same deal for Priest/Priest/Nightmare/Rotlung

Persecute seems like a terrible topdeck and potentially too difficult to cast early on.

fourleafedmonkey
07-21-2008, 05:40 AM
Persecute seems like a terrible topdeck and potentially too difficult to cast early on.

True dat yo.

You know what would be fun to run in place of persecute, and dont persecute me for this (punny) is shimian specter.

Or even cranial extraction.

Happy Gilmore
07-21-2008, 08:35 AM
I think nearly everyone missed my point completely, the idea is not to focus on building an obscure 4 card combo. The only card I changed was to add Rotlung which is just awsome in so many situations. I would play Rotlung in any build I was testing. However, I put Priest back in the deck specifically to provide an easy way to chain Recurring Nightmare as well as getting fast starts like: swamp, ritual, priest, specter or Rotlung. Recurring Nightmare is a late game bomb that can swing the game extremely fast, especially using Rotlung and the tokens that are produced. Nightmare more importantly turns Skriekmaw into a literal nightmare for any number of non black creatures. The card is practically impossible to kill using Naturalize effects including Krosan Grip, as any chaining can be done without passing priority to the opponent.

Kuma
07-21-2008, 08:48 AM
I fail to see how Rotlung Reanimator is awesome when he and Priest of Gix, a card that most people don't run as it has been found to be subpar, are your only clerics. Recurring Nightmare may well be worth running, but the other two cards aren't.

Happy Gilmore
07-21-2008, 09:04 AM
I fail to see how Rotlung Reanimator is awesome when he and Priest of Gix, a card that most people don't run as it has been found to be subpar, are your only clerics. Recurring Nightmare may well be worth running, but the other two cards aren't.

Rotlung and Nightmare are both amazing, or have been in the limited testing I have done so far. Priest isn't all that necessary and could easily be replaced with something else, preferably with a cc of 3.

trollwarrior_666
07-22-2008, 02:02 PM
You know what would be fun to run in place of persecute, and dont persecute me for this (punny) is shimian specter.

Or even cranial extraction.

I have Shimian Specter in my SB against Control and sometimes against Combo, and I must say it works great when he connects. I recently played one on the first turn and my opponent scooped in response.

Kuma
07-22-2008, 03:32 PM
Shimian Specter is an interesting thought, but I don't think he can be reliably cast on turn one. Well, I've got some spaces in my sideboard that I don't know what to do with, so maybe I'll give him a try.

Phantom
07-22-2008, 04:01 PM
I've been liking 3 Unmasks mainboard enough to consider a fourth. I had to cut Dusk Urchins for them (which hurt) but I strongly believe that the controllish build needs more interaction than 4 Chalice (and 0-4 Trinis) can provide. I hate having to grab a creature with Unmask (as often I will toss a creature removing beater) but grabbing Humility, Survival, Deed, or even a lone swords can be amazing. Also, I underestimated the value of seeing their hand before playing Chalice. I highly recommend the card to other people, though I think 4 Chalice, Trini, and Unmask main might be a bit much.

moOnsteak
07-22-2008, 07:19 PM
^
With the same reason why we don't play Trinisphere maindeck in Dragon Stompy build (it's not black and only amazing in 1st - 2nd turn), we have to consider about cutting it. .
Demon Stompy doesn't have Gathan Riders to throw away a dead card anyway
Afterall, I agree that Unmask is powerful and 3-4 is the right number. .

frenchy-man
07-25-2008, 08:52 AM
Hi !!


I test demon stompy for a while, and one of my worst match-up i against enchantress...

Do you have any tricks/cards that would improve this MU ?

Kuma
07-25-2008, 12:24 PM
I hate playing Enchantress with Chalice Aggro. The best thing you can do is resolve a Chalice at two and/or a Chalice at three. You're probably going to have to win with a Bitterblossom token or Stinkweed Imp carrying equipment, unless they get a slow draw and you can race them. Pithing Needle can help you with Sacred Mesa and Words of War. Trinispheres are nearly useless here.

frenchy-man
07-25-2008, 01:21 PM
The problem is in fact elephant grass, that litteraly kill the deck.
The same issue happens when confinement is on the board.

So the solution would be to play a chalice @1 + chalice @3 but this kind of situation is very rare, and chalice @3 hurts also the demon' player....


No maybe I should abandon this MU and hope not to meet too much enchantress in tournament...

Jaiminho
07-25-2008, 01:25 PM
Actually, you need 3 Chalices to win against Enchantress. If you can't get that one at 4, then they'll Replenish in their rings and seals and screw whatever is screwing their wincons. Chalice @ 2 for Seal of Primordium and maybe Hoofprints, @ 3 for everything and @ 4 for Replenish. If you can't set all of them, you can't lock them out.

frenchy-man
07-25-2008, 01:29 PM
yeah that's totally true.

Demon Stompy can't win agaisnt enchatress, and this is a problem that we can't resolve for now.
Fortunately, enchantress is not so played, and loses vs some DTB, which demon stompy is cenced to win.

Kuma
07-25-2008, 01:56 PM
I forgot that you can't pay 2 to attack when Elephant Grass is out because all your creatures are black.

Yeah, this matchup seems pretty unwinnable. Good thing Enchantress is not a very common deck.

@Jaiminho

The point isn't to lock them out of the game, but to make their life very, very hard. There's precious few decks that can be totally shut down by Chalice. Besides, if you're worried about Replenish, we are playing the color best suited to hate on the graveyard.

DevilishEyes
07-29-2008, 06:29 PM
As a matter of fact you cán attack an Enchantress Player with a Elephant Grass in play!
Simply morph your Grinning Demon or Bane of the Living!
This gives you at least a chance to win, though it might be a small chance.

Illissius
07-29-2008, 06:32 PM
Would Dystopia be too slow?

Nihil Credo
07-29-2008, 06:58 PM
Yes, I've thought about that one. You make them sac a permanent a turn while the whole point of their engine is to play more than one permanent a turn. Basically, unless you play it turn 1 off a ritual, it's not going to help significantly.

idraleo
07-29-2008, 08:08 PM
The problem can be resolved by playing Oblivion Stone in sideboards if needed, but the point is that Enchantress sees at the best of a 1x deck on a 40-50 player tournament. With those probability to be find, is unfair to play something in your sideboard to handle for. Btw, i thought that Oblivion Stone + LotV to handle on Replenish is a good way to shut those decks.

I was testing this comboish decklist lately, it combines good strategyes with BB and add Liliana Vess to get a PowerfuL tutor and at the same time a good threat against Landstill and control-based decks.

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [LRW] Liliana Vess
3 [FUT] Magus of the Abyss
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [US] Contamination
3 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask


I' ll probably go and try it on a real tournament when i' ll get the 4 off Contamination ^^'''

fourleafedmonkey
08-16-2008, 02:13 PM
So, i have been playtesting recently and the biggest bane of this deck is Humility.
There needs to be some way to either get rid of it or to pre emptively deal with it.
I think cranial extraction side deck would be a pretty good idea.
ideas?

CaptainGiggles
08-20-2008, 07:40 PM
Cranial extraction seems good. How do we feel about Slaughter Pact? It could be handy to move a blocker and equip a guy to swing in the same turn. The upkeep drawback seems reasonable if you are punching them for a bunch the turn before.

fourleafedmonkey
08-21-2008, 02:26 PM
I have seriously considered slaughter pact, but i must admit it scares me. Losing to a wasteland is not fun.

And the fact that the deck now runs shriekmaw it seems a little redundant.

CaptainGiggles
08-21-2008, 03:19 PM
The build I'm running has a different creature base. no shriekmaw or stinkweed, but i play 3 slaughter pact and 2 yukora, the prisoner. the idea being that my guys are just bigger than their guys and on turn 2.

Joon
08-24-2008, 07:51 AM
This is my current list for DeS:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
8 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
4 [LE] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [AN] Juzam Djinn/Grinning Demon/Phyrex. Scuta/Yukora
1 [TSP] Plague Sliver

// Spells
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LG] Nether Void
2 [MR] Loxodon Warhammer

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [LE] Bane of the Living

Yes, I play Nether Void again. I can't understand you guys try to cut it. It completely fucks Gro and Combo. With a Critter it is brutal against Control (Turn 4 no Wrath, a StoP maybe...). It is pretty cool with Tomb of Urami. It fucks the Loamengine hard. This card is teh pr0n :eek:
Trinisphere + Void = hard times for your opponent. Chalice at 1 and/or two + Void = Yeah, play something Turn 4/5 or so...

I'm figuring out which Critter of the following is the best for the Djinn slot:

- Phyrexian Scuta (you can avoid the lifeloss but then he is rather weak)
- Grinning Demon (can do cool tricks, is big enough to kill goyfs most of the time)
- Yukora the Prisoner (to dangerous I suppose)
- Juzam Djinn (okay, and pretty cool)

I think Djinn/Demon will do it, but which one? Any opinions?

Knuckles29
09-09-2008, 03:46 PM
ever since I've looked at this deck I wanted to play it, I am a former 5/3 player so I have most of the cards. I just wanted to ask about a few random cards I found in the 2B cc that seemed ok to good to me:

Phyrexian Rager (easier cost than Muse, I will admit less advantage)

PLague Spitter (as an Engineered PLague that attacks)

Skulking KNight (flanking) and considering most things that would target would kill anyways, it does mean no equip tho... prob not that good

SKittering Horror (4/3 that seems aggresive, i'm sure Urchins are better)

Also wondering about Sickening Shoal, Spinning Darkness, or the random Soul Spike

The final thought is for a SB of Helm of Obidience/Leyline as mentioned on starcity

Happy Gilmore
09-09-2008, 07:30 PM
ever since I've looked at this deck I wanted to play it, I am a former 5/3 player so I have most of the cards. I just wanted to ask about a few random cards I found in the 2B cc that seemed ok to good to me:

Phyrexian Rager (easier cost than Muse, I will admit less advantage)

PLague Spitter (as an Engineered PLague that attacks)

Skulking KNight (flanking) and considering most things that would target would kill anyways, it does mean no equip tho... prob not that good

SKittering Horror (4/3 that seems aggresive, i'm sure Urchins are better)

Also wondering about Sickening Shoal, Spinning Darkness, or the random Soul Spike

The final thought is for a SB of Helm of Obidience/Leyline as mentioned on starcity

Rotlung Reanimator

overseer1234
09-15-2008, 03:32 PM
Ive been doing some more testing with the deck, and this is what has been working out best for me:

Main deck:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Unmask

4x Bane of the Living
4x Dusk Urchins
4x Graveborn Muse
4x Grinning Demon
4x Shriekmaw

4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
7x Swamp
2x Tomb of Urami
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle (just like with dragon stompy: Deed is not your friend)
3x Winter Orb Artifact
4x Plague Spitter
4x Leyline of the Void

The good thing is that this deck can be metagamed better than most people would think at first sight (with Stinkweed imp, nether void, shimian specter, trinisphere,..), which is something i really like in this deck :)

Anyway, some feedback would be appreciated :)

overseer1234
10-17-2008, 06:25 PM
Wow, nobody playing this anymore?

Anyway, I was looking trough some crap rare's of SOA and stumbled across Cunning Lethemancer.

For those that don't know what it does:

Cunning Lethemancer :2: :b:
Creature: Human Wizard
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player discards a card.
2/2

Perfect manacost, however his size is somewhat small, it's effects does look pretty interesting given we recur most of our stuff trough SoLaS.


Any thought's on this?

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 06:32 PM
lethemancer would be quite good in this.

btw trinisphere and void seems like overkill no? maybe 3 of each? also, why dont you play discard? it should help a little. at least thoughseize? also, negator in the board vs. control sounds good.

Waikiki
10-17-2008, 06:43 PM
I think the mancer will suck, since it's body is way to weak and its effect isn't really that gamebreaking like a magus of the moon.

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 06:54 PM
I think the mancer will suck, since it's body is way to weak and its effect isn't really that gamebreaking like a magus of the moon.

really? its like a weaker hippie but its easier to cast. seems like it could be strong. it locks combo out too. chalice stops them and so does trinisphere but only until they look for an answer. especially slow combo. this keeps their hand low. and mancer castable on turn 1 so it can be a strong play early, just like magus.

Waikiki
10-18-2008, 03:26 AM
then it still sounds like SB material for the combo matchup

Mantis
10-18-2008, 04:30 AM
So your opponent can just pitch the cards they can't use because of Chalice? Nice card. The 2/2 body is way too weak for this format and while Magus can get away with such a small body (he shuts down the mana needed to cast Goyfs, Mongeese etc.) this fella really can't. Also, the effect is symmetrical and doesn't really effect opposing decks all that much. Fits the curve perfectly however, but if this card truly is the best out there for this deck I really question the viability.

Vacrix
10-18-2008, 04:50 AM
then it still sounds like SB material for the combo matchup

yeah thats what i was thinking too, MD it would be ok.


So your opponent can just pitch the cards they can't use because of Chalice? Nice card. The 2/2 body is way too weak for this format and while Magus can get away with such a small body (he shuts down the mana needed to cast Goyfs, Mongeese etc.) this fella really can't. Also, the effect is symmetrical and doesn't really effect opposing decks all that much. Fits the curve perfectly however, but if this card truly is the best out there for this deck I really question the viability.

well yeah, i see what you are saying, but think about it. when your opponent does find an answer for chalice at 1, they would rather have or even need all those 1cc spells to go off. i mean, if its that hard for them to go off without the 1cc's then they are obviously important and you like it when they are discarded away. also, it will keep your opponents hand fixed, as they will draw and then have to discard. which will not even matter to you by the time you even want hellbent for some of your shit (if you play gathan raider or something). meh i can see how it would kinda be over kill if you have chalice, but you are not always going to draw chalice. :] you know, thats like saying, i have force of will and stifle in my deck so i can beat combo. with the resiliency of FT/TES its hard to say anything is a solid lock against them you know? though i admit the sideboard space could probably be for something else. but if the TES/FT matchups suck then this might be something worth testing. fast combo can't really deal with chalice at 1 or trinisphere. btw, what is the standard number of trinispheres/nethervoid (if you play void) to run in this? and also, are the goblin/elf matchups good enough to not play E-plague in the board? plague seem sooo easy to cast.



EDIT:

btw hypnotic specter seems a little bit more difficult to cast with BB, but seems like it would be a stronger choice due to the random discard effect.

trollwarrior_666
10-18-2008, 06:32 AM
I recently (14 September) went T4 with DS at a 32 man tourney. However, this was mainly due to the lack of good players who usually show up. I played the following list:

7 Swamp
2 Tomb of Urami
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Priest of Gix
4 Shriekmaw
4 Dusk Urchins
4 Grining Demon
3 Bane of the Living
3 Graveborn Muse

4 Chalice fo the Void
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Unmask

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Plague Spitter
4 Winter Orb
3 Shimian Specter

I played against the following decks: WelderSurvival (1-2), UWBG Landstill (2-0, this really surprised me), SuiBlack (2-0), 'GeddonStax (2-1) and Reanimate (2-0). T8 vs TES (2-0), T4 vs GBW Loam (0-2).
The only card that really disappointed me was Priest of Gix, it's too small to actually do something (other than pitching to Chrome Mox and Unmask) so I decided to cut them. The new list is -4 Priest of Gix, +1 Graveborn Muse, +1 Unmask and +2 Shimian Specter (test slot), SB -3 Specter and +3 Pithing Needle. Maybe I will drop the Specteres entirely in favour of Phyrexian Rager, because you usually win when you draw multiple Dusk Urchins/Graveborn Muses.

Edit: I really like the deck, it's fun to play but it's not very good in my opinion.

Vacrix
10-18-2008, 08:14 AM
maybe you could drop shimian specter for hypnotic specter. comes down off of a little easier off of dark rit.

also, it costs a little much but could Dregs of Sorrow fit into this?

trollwarrior_666
10-19-2008, 06:49 AM
Hypnotic Specter: it's indeed easier to play it of Dark Ritual, but it's more common that I have BB2 (Mox, Swamp 2 mana land), and I don't want to manaburn because there's allready enough lifeloss.

Dregs of Sorrow:I don't like it because it costs too much mana to be usefull in my opinion.

Kuma
10-19-2008, 04:53 PM
Lethemancer does nothing to solve DeS's biggest problem: too much self damage. It's ability is also bad because, as Mantis said, they can pitch the stuff they can't play because of Chalice. Also, remember that we aren't Dragon Stompy -- we like to have cards in our hand, and all Lethemancer does is hurt Graveborne Muse and Dusk Urchins.

Vacrix
10-19-2008, 05:00 PM
Lethemancer does nothing to solve DeS's biggest problem: too much self damage. It's ability is also bad because, as Mantis said, they can pitch the stuff they can't play because of Chalice. Also, remember that we aren't Dragon Stompy -- we like to have cards in our hand, and all Lethemancer does is hurt Graveborne Muse and Dusk Urchins.

excellent arguement. i concede. :]
would hippie be a better choice then? the distruption just seems so tempting. and its randomized with hippie, and it doesnt hit you. seems like a good deal. mox, land, land isn't that hard to get right? just don't take the burn from the tomb by playing other things til you can drop hippie.

also, does this deck like duress or no? thoughtseize would be pushing it with all the lifeloss already.

Kuma
10-19-2008, 08:56 PM
You could probably get away with playing Hippie if you run Dark Ritual, but I don't think Dark Ritual is the way to go with DeS. Hippie is really only good in Legacy if you drop him turn one or two, and DeS will usually drop him turn three or later.

If you want to run discard, use Unmask. Duress and Thoughtseize don't work well because of Chalice, and, in Thoughtseize's case, the life loss.

I run Loxodon Warhammer in my current list. Yes, I'm that desperate for life gain. What we really need is a decent 2B lifelink creature, or something.

Illissius
10-20-2008, 06:56 AM
Silly idea for the day: Horobi + Urborg? (Hey, it's good in 3CB.)

Poron
10-20-2008, 07:32 AM
why not Tombstalker?

Illissius
10-20-2008, 08:15 AM
Because the only cards in your graveyard are going to be the ones your opponent put there.

KillemallCFH
10-20-2008, 08:35 AM
Silly idea for the day: Horobi + Urborg? (Hey, it's good in 3CB.)Clearly I'm missing something, because I don't see any special synergy between the two other than the fact that one costs black mana and the other gives it to you.

Illissius
10-20-2008, 08:53 AM
The original Urborg.

KillemallCFH
10-20-2008, 09:32 AM
The original Urborg.Oh.

That makes much more sense.

Mantis
10-21-2008, 09:48 AM
well yeah, i see what you are saying, but think about it. when your opponent does find an answer for chalice at 1, they would rather have or even need all those 1cc spells to go off. i mean, if its that hard for them to go off without the 1cc's then they are obviously important and you like it when they are discarded away. also, it will keep your opponents hand fixed, as they will draw and then have to discard. which will not even matter to you by the time you even want hellbent for some of your shit (if you play gathan raider or something). meh i can see how it would kinda be over kill if you have chalice, but you are not always going to draw chalice. :] you know, thats like saying, i have force of will and stifle in my deck so i can beat combo. with the resiliency of FT/TES its hard to say anything is a solid lock against them you know? though i admit the sideboard space could probably be for something else. but if the TES/FT matchups suck then this might be something worth testing. fast combo can't really deal with chalice at 1 or trinisphere. btw, what is the standard number of trinispheres/nethervoid (if you play void) to run in this? and also, are the goblin/elf matchups good enough to not play E-plague in the board? plague seem sooo easy to cast.

EDIT:

btw hypnotic specter seems a little bit more difficult to cast with BB, but seems like it would be a stronger choice due to the random discard effect.
I was merely illustrating the dissynergy between Chalice and Lethemancer, I do understand that you will probably only draw both in like 1 out of 3 or 4 games, but when you do that sucks. You want to maximize your deck's synergy so that the cards you play actually make the others better, not worse. If you play 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hypnotic Specter could be playable, albeit slower than you could cast Lethemancer. Now I'm not advocating Hypnotic Specter, but I'd much rather have him instead.

Mordel
11-04-2008, 05:24 AM
I find the inherent weakness with demon stompy is lack of lockage and a weird focus on going later than other tomb aggro archetypes. To be concise: the game goes on way too fucking long for my taste and I think more obstacles for an opponent will make for a faster game. I haven't played against elephant stompy or whatever the green one is called much, but the black tomb stompy decks strike me as the slowest of the archetype. I don't know if this is because people that have played made the lists I have seen have all crossed the bridges that I have yet to cross in testing or what, but I guess I'll have to learn on my own or have people tell me about their experiences.

(I was originally going to make a thread for this and then my memory kicked in, so sorry for being long-winded)

A question that will be asked about my list that I should answer right away is "why negator"? I haven't tested the deck tonnes against decks that pack burn at this point, but I generally like negs for the fact he generally comes down on the second turn or first and will finish the game in four swings if gone unanswered. The deck can run on next to no land after the initial few land drops(neg fodder), so a trinket mage that slips through the cracks doesn't scare me much. Trample(though situational) also gives me a huge hard-on and the fact that I am not losing two life every turn to a demon that has a net mana investment of fucking seven. I have liked negator a lot since it first hit print(and spoilers), so I know full well about its pros and cons. If an abundance of chumps or bolts seem to get pointed at it, he might get benched for demon or scuta. In any event, I'd rather not have this be a pros and cons of running negator thread. Yes, goyf is everywhere in this format, no goyf is not generally bigger than a 2/3 when a negator swings on the second or third turn.

On the absence of dark ritual: I didn't really like it in this deck at all. I tested it and I found myself wishing that I had pulled something--anything else off the top of the deck when I go around to a fourth draw that needed to be something. I don't recall exactly what they were replaced for, but I believe contaminations and bitterblossoms became four slots each when rituals got the axe. I find myself liking no rituals a lot more in testing.

Another card that will inevitably be suggested is confidant/muse. To be concise about my failed experiment with confidant: by the time his card advantage will be appreciated, I should be sideboarding or shaking my opponent's hand. I don't feel confidant has a place in this deck because I will need to sacrifice dropping him instead of a 3sphere, chalice for two or nether void to seal the deal. I feel that a similar scenario would play out with muse.

Finally, the contamination soft lock seemed like a really good card to put in the deck because even if I don't get a bitterblossom, I can still pay it potentially by sacrificing a priest of gix or something to it. The contamination has actually worked much like a mana drain on an opponent's upkeep before. The card is not meant to be a sit-around-and-look-smug-lock, but a hinder an-opponent-enough-to-smash-face-lock. My chief focus with this deck was winning by the fourth or fifth turn much like my old tanglewire black deck did back in the day.

On dusk urchins: I am not really sure about these guys yet: I realize that I talked some shit about bob's advantages being worthless, while I run a creature that draws me cards if he dies, but I saw them in a slower-looking deck and I figured I would try them. In one matchup they were awesome because when they smacked into a sea drake(yes I forced FS into the control deck role somehow), I was rewarded with a new threat and in another match, they were "meh". With mws's inherant weirdness, I tend to draw them at the same time I draw negators and moxes, so they usually get pitched. They seem like a good card to run in theory, but I am not sure if they really are that good in concert with the whole "untap four times and win ideally" strategy that I am going for.

As for the sideboard, I play primarily online being as standard is extremely gay and there is no legacy scene where I live, so the sideboard is sort of vaguely targeting a universal metagame. When this is translated to magic-league, it means that mostly decks that have scored #1 finishes recently will be run into. I'll include a blurb beside each card in the sideboard included with the actual list, so it is easy to scoff at my reasoning :wink:

Cards that I considered and then dismissed immediately due to horrible numbers have been:

-unmask: I can barely support chrome moxes sometimes because of important drops like contamination, bb and nv...

-contagion: I originally thought a free spell thing would be really awesome because I would be completely immune to cb. Then I looked at the decklist more

-spinning darkness: doesn't kill stuff like it used to and my graveyard doesn't fill fast enough

-deathmark: I ran this initially because I was scared shitless of my neg smashing into a goyf, then I realized unless I am going to lose straight-up, chances are negs will just run over a goyf...the removal of deathmark resulted in snuff-out count being upper and a bane of the living being added.

-yixlid jailer: I actually considered running some in the sb, but then I thought better of it because I have more popular decks that I need to think about than dredge.


Anyway, here is my list:

Neg stomp

// Lands
11 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [JGC] Phyrexian Negator
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
2 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [US] Priest of Gix

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Contamination
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LG] Nether Void
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LE] Bane of the Living-sort of an afterthought to dicking around with the sideboard. I figured that three in some matches, like goblins or slivers, would be great to have, but also got thrown in because I couldn't think of anything better to add one copy of.

SB: 4 [ARE] Duress-Works well in a match against control or combo. Thoughtseize was considered, but I figure that the life loss seemed a bit needless because I would very rarely be grabbing a creature in a match that I bring them in for.

SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow-I thought these might have potential as a card for a match up against a deck that forces me into a later part of the game than I would like to be. It should be noted that I was also considering them to be another potential card to help fuel contamination.

SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

SB: 4 [MM] Snuff Out-This is a card that I really do love a lot, but setting the deep emotional attachment asside(which I ruthlessly did for contagion), I felt these were best-suited to fill any removal holes created by the sorcery-speed limits of 'maw and the comparative slowness of bane. I suppose you could call this hole "resolved dreadnaught" or something like that.

Radiant
01-12-2009, 06:36 PM
I know this thread is kinda old, but I have played DeS several times on local tournaments now, and most of my results were Top5. (10-20 players)

Now that I've read through the whole thread, I realize that nobody ever mentioned Dauthi Marauder (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/17.html).
This little guy has everything DeS wants. Perfect CastingCost, hits for 3 AND has evasion. His wee ass is almost irrelevant. Lightning Bolt would toast him either way, even if he had a balanced 3/3.
He has won me many matches, 'cause he always is unblockable (ok, WhiteWeenie has Soltaris, but... who cares.) and carries my equipments into the opponent's face, where they belong.

The list I have playtested (with few changes over time):

Lands (19):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
9 Swamp
Creatures (22):
4 Priest of Gix
4 Dusk Urchins
4 Dauthi Marauder
2 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shriekmaw
1 Plague Sliver
4 Grinning Demon
Disruption + Stuff (19):
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere
0-4 Bane of the Living
other stuff

So far SoFaI was mostly better than it's counterpart, 'cause it puts much more pressure on the opponent.
I'm not sure about the Dusk Urchins, I never ever really drew a card with them. They eat almost every remove-creature spell the opponent has.
Priest of Gix / Stinkweed Imp turned out to be amazing, I just love them, but would not want to play more than 2 Stinkies. (Stinkies even got Smother-ed and then Extirpate-d once)
7 equipments <-> 22 creatures works very well and the equipment mix too.
I know that 1 Jitte is extremely random, but is useless with Chalice@2 and to draw 1 doesn't really hurt. It IS a really powerful card, so are the Swords, and Trinisphere makes them cost the same total amount of mana, but somehow I like the swords better.
The one random Nether Void is in for the 4th 3Sphere, which comes from the board when needed. (also I only have 1 NV . . . but I plan to squeeze in 2 more.)
Bane of the Living usually comes for Dauthi Marauder, if the opponent has many x/1-2 creatures, which could swarm me.
The other SB cards should be clear.

I really like this deck much more than DragonStompy, because you don't have to ensure Hellbent all the time and the average CC is a bit lower. And I have equipments, which make a monster out of every creature I play.

With this, I want to start the discussion about DeS again and look forward to the improvements you would make in this deck.

PS: Please don't mind possible grammar mistakes, I didn't have to speak/write in English for some time now.

Aernil
01-13-2009, 06:13 AM
Its nice to see someone actually playing the deck.
I stopped posting long time ago, although I didn't stop playing the deck and trying to improve it.

I think pretty much every list around bases on my old list / on the evolvements made in the early weeks of DemS existance.
I cutted the Rituals a year ago (if not earlier), and changed a good amount.
I tried pretty much every creature available in the cc3 & 4 slot.
Marauder is in my list since ~11 months, and warhammer/jitte had to go ~ 10 months ago.

At the moment Im testing 24 creatures, puting either CHalice or Sphere in the Sideboard (still not sure if that is a good idea and what to give to SB)
Also the slots for Urchins are pretty much oppen for all.
Although I tested it for ages, I really can't tell if it sucks or owns hard.
I also put negator back in (5 months ago?) because I felt a lack speed and agression.
With the equip I play a full set of SoFaI and SoLaS, because they are so damned good and are necessary with 24 creatures.
Both of these give a P/T boost making our creatures bigger than most others.
The abilities are both useful and strong, and both do pretty awesome things in DemS.

Currently I hardly have time to play it (exams), so its up to you to go nuts and think of something I havent thought of yet.

List:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Swamp
2x Tomb of Urami

4x Shriekmaw
4x Dauthi Marauder
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Graveborn Muse
4x Priest of gix
4x Dusk Urchins

4x Chrome Mox
4x SoLaS
4x SoFaI
4x Trinisphere

Im still not convinced of Muse and Urchins, but one of them has to go soon.
And I really like to squeeze in another evasion beater (I dislike foul spirit, so Ebon Drake might be alternative), but slots are rare.

Darkenslight
01-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Dauthi Trapper as a boost for the others?

Small, but the shadow-giving is often relevant.

Aernil
01-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Dauthi Trapper as a boost for the others?

Small, but the shadow-giving is often relevant.

Usually you dont want to waste slots to cards that do nothing on their own.
(except the effect is wort it).
The main reason against trapper:
What creature (at least in my current list) do you want to be unblockable?
Marauder already is, Shriekmaw too, Negator tramples, Priest is not really planned to attack into blockers without equip almost same to Muse.

And what would you cut?
I currently have hard times fitting Ebon drake in
oh, and it needs to tap for its ability

MasterC
01-13-2009, 03:07 PM
I played this Deck this weekend in a small tournament.

"Balls 2 the wall"

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Tomb of Urami
9 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Grinning Demon
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Bane of the Living
4 Priest of Gix
4 Shriekmaw
4 Snuff Out

SB:
4 Planar Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Powder Keg

I beat Aggro Loam and Dragon Stompy, while losing a close game to Lands.dec and getting crushed by B/W Pox.

My take on this Deck was to maximize it's aggressiveness.
I added Snuff Out to better support Negator and Demon. Shooting away Blockers while dropping threats is a great thing. It also fits the curve very well, in Mid- and Lategame you can easily hardcast it, so Lifeloss isn't a huge issue. In my opinion this card should be included in every aggressive Demon Stompy list.
Marauder is a house as well, and with equipment he's complete nuts. My Most common turn 1 Play was Priest -> Marauder.

First card to cut would be Bane. I never played him as morph, because I had no good targets for him, and his hardcast Stats are unimpressive, so I always played him as the last option.

vlz-
01-13-2009, 03:56 PM
I think dark rits are great in here. In testing I'm rarely disappointed in a rit, they really help you power those first 2-3 turns when you need plenty of mana. Plus it can give you some crazy plays, in my last game I had a turn 1 grinning demon with a jitte in play turn1...insane

Black_Dog
03-09-2009, 09:03 AM
I hate the name Demon Stompy...

But I've been testing a version of this deck for the last 2 months and it's pretty strong in the current META. Very strong. It rolls anything that's top based (more on that later), Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Poxless Pox (or whatever you want to call it), Team Obama or Team America, Insert Combo Deck here, anything that runs little creatures (folk, elves, gobs).

It gets crushed in a big way to Landstill, Stax, Pox, Discard (which isn't very common, but it's Legacy so I never bank on 'Oh I wont see that deck') and Enchantress.

BLACK:

One of blacks biggest weaknesses is the fact that if you don't really know how to pilot the deck, it's very easy to kill yourself. Be your own worst enemy.

One of the biggest advantages for a deck like this is you do have a few cards that are very good for "Oh shit" dropping bombs for disruption. The drawback is the cost for them is usually very high or very taxing and dependant on another (or more) cards (like Contamination).

Another boon is the sheer amount of removal Black has.

THE DECK:

You can't play it like Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy. Yes it has similiarities but if you're going to make a deck to get out mid CC creatures that are big very fast you should play Faerie Stompy. If you want to try for a quick lockout and have some big creatures, then you go with Magus of the Moon. IMO Black Stompy should be more geared to play up it's advantages of the color w/o killing you and making the most out of the ability to throw out creatures on a higher curve that CounterTop can't deal with and that doesn't go down in flames once you get FoW'd

One thing to avoid, IMO is you can't get too techy. A deck that runs Counterbalance and Top, once that is dealt with or beaten isn't so strong as long as you can answer a Goyf. We don't want a glass cannon. We want something that's strong and consistant.

CREATURES:

I loathe Grinning Demon. Yeah it's a good thing to run him side by side with Bane (only reason I considered him) but it's a 6/6 with no Evasion and no Trample that eats you away.

Finding a replacement is hard though. We've seen the creatures listed and they're many. Black has LOADS of decent 3CC and 4CC creatures. But none really are 'wow'.

The creature I've used to VERY good effectiveness runs along the same line as say a Magus of the Moon (in the sense that it does disrupt) but also has a sort of Evasion...

Shimian Specter is wrecking ball. Yes Fire/Ice, STP and Bolt kill it. But @ 4CC it's very possible to get this out on Turn 2 (even Turn 1 but I don't like to bank on inconsistant odds). A Turn 2 Shimian MUST be answered. If your opp doesn't, while you do deal 4 less damage than Grinning, you are able to wipe their whole deck, hand and grave of something that will eat you later. It flies so is a prime canidate for equipment. Over all it's bit jank but as a creature it fits, beats top, evades, can kill fragile decks after the first swing (most all combo or decks with few win conditions). It also doesn't eat your life away.

Bane of Enemies - perfect as a sweeper. He can kill an early or mid game Goyf. Rolls Folk, Goblins, Elves, Confidant and anything else that relies on low P/T win conditions. Another reason I keep the Dark Rituals in the deck to sweep big P/T creatures (it's not a strech for him to take out a Tombstalker. Not easy though). He's easy to flip for BB.

Dusk Urchins - They're not great. But they're not bad either. Work well w/ Gix, but if I lost Gix I'd lose them too. Doesn't kill you. Good to play, let your opp waste removal on him and then drop a Bane or Shimian.

Priest of Gix - Fast and able to let you jump out of the gate. It's a free creature.

Shriekmaw - If he didn't have the 'non-artifact' bit in him he would be amazing, but he's still pretty damn good. Rolls Goyf and pretty much everything else you'll see apart from Dread and Confidant. Not hard at all to Hardcast. Evasion.

Twisted Abomination - I like him because Stompy decks tend to beat themselves and the worst thing in the world is when you pull a hand with no mana but Tombs and City of Traitors. Helps getting G for a Deed or the Extra B for a hardcast.

OTHER CARDS:

Chrome Mox - A must

Dark Ritual - I keep teetering whether to take them out or not. They are useful and get play in almost every match. Even late game they're great for a big Bane morph. But still, the deck wouldn't mind the extra utility/disruption.

Jitte + Sword of Fire and Ice: Jitte choice is easy, SoFI is the better choice now since Blue and Red are such a common sight. I do like SoLS though but SoFI is a meta decision (although Tombstalkers all over the place could change my mind)

Nether Void: This card in your hand is a lot like when you're holding a Pox. "To Pox or not to Pox". As a B/W Pox player online and in RL I've learned that if you don't know how to pilot the deck very well, you can ruin any advantage you have. It's not an easy card to play choice wise but I like it. If you have a creature on the board and drop this Turn 2 or 3, your opp can be in deep trouble. I run them Maindeck as when I need them, I NEED them. And when I don't it's a Mox or boarded out. But the question of "are they good" rests on "Do you know when to play them?"

Snuff Out: This card is awesome. My favorite Black removal spell for the moment. Kills Dread, Factories and everything else you'll see apart from Confidants and Tombstalkers. Easy to hard cast with your manabase. I wish Black had more cards like this that weren't so taxing like Soul Spike.

Prenicious Deed: I put this in for Enchantress and Landstill. Helps as a sweeper. Great for killing lots of stuff.

Anyway here's the deck

-Lands
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
3 x Polluted Delta
3 x Swamp
3 x Bayou
1 x Tomb of Urami
1 x Urborg

-Creatures
4 x Priest of Gix
4 x Dusk Urchins
4 x Bane of Enemies
4 x Shimian Spector
3 x Shriekmaw
1 x Twisted Abomination

-Other
4 x Chrome Mox
4 x Dark Ritual
3 x Snuff Out
3 x Nether Void
3 x Prenicsious Deed
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
1 x Nether Void
1 x Prenicious Deed
1 x Snuff Out
4 x Powder Keg
4 x Leyline of the Void
4 x Chalice of the Void

Sideboard Notes:

Another Void for Combo and decks that are just screwed by it.
Another Deed
Another Snuff Out
Powder Keg: All sorts of things
Leyline: Obvious.
Chalice: Obvious.

Other cards Im considering:

Transmute
Dimir House Guard (4CC): He's a shitty creature but worse have been suggested here. B3 for a Fear, 2/3 with a regen possibility. Transmute 1BB. Good for fetching things that you tend to need (Snuff Out, Nether Void, Bane of Enemies, Shimian). Would be as a 1 off only like Abomination. And if I ran it I would likely start running Disks.

Nev Disk: More of a thought for things that run Moat, Prisons, Humility, cards that tend to screw this deck up. Went with Deed instead as by running 3CC and 4CC creatures you tend to come out with a full board after you set it off. Disk works with House Guard, but the deck can't get too techy (a la Contamination + Blossom).

Akuta Born of Ash: Of all the creatures discussed about in this thread I like him and Negator the most (which are not in my list) Not enough Swamps running though to make him viable. Creature

Braids Cabal Minion: Originally I wanted to run Death Cloud, but its a win more thing, BBB is hard, and when I tested I usually didn't cast it as I didn't need too or it would have hurt more than good. Braids is a solid card, would open up tech for Bitterblossom, Contamination but even w/o those it would work. Problem is having too many 4CC cards and losing Shimian and Bane are out. Dusk is advantage (slow but still). Gix is explosive and Shreikmaw is what helps the deck stand out from other Stompy (the removal)

P. Negator: Great card. But I've had loads of bad luck to him and Shimian + Bane are more useful.

Stinkweed Imp: He is good... but 1/2 is small... i'd remove the Maw's for him

Vindicate: Lose the Bayou's for Scrublands and get a big removal card in.

End Notes:

All in all I think this deck is missing a card that's not yet printed. Some Black Simian Spirit Guide or another decent 3CC or 4CC creature. Some one off disruption. Not to make it viable but to make it "whoa".

Apart from that it's showed itself (to me) as being far more consistant than Dragon and Faerie Stompy as long as you run good amounts of removal to deal with threats if you're FoW'd or get stalled (Snuff Out, Maw, Bane). Able to beat out anything on the CounterTop fein and destroys decks that use lots of little creatures. Combo as well. The deck vs a slow control deck is hard though. Very but not impossible. It does have speed although the creatures are not as big as other versions. Then again Shimian tends to make up for that, but the deck does not rely on him at all.

Thoughts? And lets not go back down the road the past 10 pages have gone. Black has nearly all the elements to make this work and work well.

Nihlistdeathtrip
07-21-2009, 12:44 AM
this is most likely a dead thread, but i know there have to be others who are still interested in the deck. Ive been playing a version of my own and have had reasonable amounts of success with it. If ppl are interested i can post my list and give a tourny report after the next legacy event on Wed.

However, the real reason for my post is Cemetery Reaper. Even though he is BB1, his ability is rediculously good, especially if you run stinkweed imp. Late game he can save your ass untill you draw an answer, or he can be the answer. Consider it and let me know what you think.

keys
07-21-2009, 01:45 AM
Reaper is way slow. I know cause I've played him twice in sealed deck and he was even a bit slow there. Bad mana cost, unreliable ability, too small of a threat on its own = nono.

IMO the best creatures for this deck are

1. Priest of Gix
2. Dauthi Marauder
3. Shriekmaw
4. Graveborn Muse

CRANIAL EXTRACTION seem really good here in addition to Trinisphere, Chalice, and Nether Void.

Shabbaman
07-21-2009, 07:20 AM
Cemetary Reaper's casting cost is prohibitive. You get all this double colorless from AT and CoT, but that doesn't accelate you into a 1BB zombie lord. I was trying to prove a point by building a zombie variant of this deck, and this is one of the main problems I encountered.

MTG-Fan
08-06-2009, 05:07 PM
Here's the version I've been testing on and off recently, and it has some pretty decent game, but I'm still ironing out kinks and figuring out what works best:

// Lands
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
12 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (or 2 Urborg and 1 Urami)

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [PLC] Damnation
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [LG] Nether Void
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid


I find that one of the main reasons to play Demon Stompy over other kinds of Chalice decks like Green or Faerie Stompy is the fact that you can play Damnation and Nether Void.

Damnation is just so great in so many games. It makes your aggro matchup pretty good, and because you run Chalice & Trini, your combo/control matchup isn't too bad either.

Nether Void is just the ultimate lock piece. If you have a Trini/Chalice on the board, and you play this bad boy, your opponent is pretty well locked out of the game. If you have stuff like Tomb of Urami or Bitterblossom, or even a Negator in play, you win because you kill him before he can play anything relevant.

Negator is surprisingly good, and the drawback is surprisingly irrelevant. The only times you ever need to worry about his drawback are early-game blockers, and stuff like Sligh with Lightning Bolts. Versus the former, you have Keg and Damnation to sweep before you play Negators, and Chalice hoses the burn strategies. Late game, the drawback can be ignored to some extent, if you have alot of permanents like Faeries and lands, and it's even helped me win by letting me sac Bitterblossoms before they killed me.

The deck still feels kind of clunky at times, and I don't know if Dusk Urchins are the best draw engine I can play or not. Also, Shriekmaw is great, but I wish it cost a little bit less. I need to find some other kind of creature-killing option that can also carry equipment, maybe Nekrataal?

BreathWeapon
08-06-2009, 05:44 PM
I'd run Perish before I ran Damnation in here, it's awesome vs Threshold, Zoo and Elves etc.

MTG-Fan
08-06-2009, 06:56 PM
The problem is, I wouldn't be comfortable maindecking a sweeper that is dead in too many matches, and for one more black mana, you get a black Wrath that hits everything.

I've used Damnation to win games against SuiBlack, Dreadstill, Goblins, etc. You have no idea how satisfying it is to play Damnation vs. Goblins on the 3rd turn.

Mystical_Jackass
08-08-2009, 03:58 AM
There's two things over the years that Black (splash, too) is just epic for; one is Dark Ritual & the other is the amazing card draw it offers.

Its kinda peculiar that this deck doesn't seem to take advantage of that. Personally, I would go something like

4- Dark Ritual
3- Phyrexian Arena
3- Graveborn Muse (zombie)
4- Nantuko Husk (zombie)
4- Negator (he's big.. nuff said. Chalice/Husk protects vs burn)
4- Bitterblossom (with husk?? heck yea)
4- Chalice of the Void
etc.

With creatures to sac in play, nantuko husk is a very powerful finisher & allows pretty amazing draw with Graveborn Muse and/or Arena. It can also protect your Phyrexian Negator from burn & damage, aka protecting your own permanents too

I run a pretty cool Br deck that runs somewhat similar, with the exception I run Gouger instead. But the deck generates such a massive card advantage that you're constantly drawing 2-3 cards a turn, playing lands and more creatures and swinging. With enough card draw, late game ritual becomes much less of a setback also.
I see Damnation in a few decks.. that seems odd to me. If you're having trouble with Tribal dude, bring in Engineered Plague or so, you shouldn't be using defensive spells when you're trying to outrace opponent. :rolleyes: Its a powerful spell dont get me wrong, sorta wondering why its maindeck is all.. ah well, to each his own :)

Scopeye
09-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
3bb
Legendary Creature - Demon Mythic Rare
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may have target player lose 3 life. If you do, put three +1/+1 counters on Ob Nixilis, the Fallen.
3/3

Does this guy has a place in demonstompy as a big beatstick?

With a heavy fetchland landbae this+tombstalker can be big the hitters

Ozymandias
09-15-2009, 06:38 AM
He might be a playable Arc-Slogger analogue, but by the time you play him your hand will probably be empty, so he might stay small for a few turns.

If folks are looking for a cheaper Shriekmaw analogue, Bone Shredder does the same thing as it comes into play, costs 2B, and flies. Cons are that it costs 2B on the echo and is only a 1/1, but it carries a Jitte like a boss.

Ozymandias
09-16-2009, 12:09 AM
Just ran into someone online playing this deck. He had Phyrexian Processor, which was some very interesting new tech. 7/7 minions every turn is pretty hot.

Ozymandias
11-24-2009, 02:49 PM
I've been thinking about this deck recently, and I was wondering whether instead of powering out big dudes with the Stompy manabase, we might not be better off pushing out a more lateral set of win conditions. I mentioned Phyrexian Processor above, and I was casting around for other options, when I realized that since I already have Leyline in my sideboard, I could quite possibly slide Helm of Obedience in there. My first sketch of the deck looks like this:

9 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Phyrexian Processor
1 Nekrataal
1 Bottled Cloister
3 Shriekmaw

All of the threats in the deck now provide added value. The pieces of Helm-Line are not unplayable on their own. G1 leyline basically auto-wins against Dredge, and makes the life of goyf, 'Goose, and 'stalker decks quite difficult, and Helm can sower a man away from practically any deck. Bitterblossom and Processor both provide an endless stream of tokens to either win on their own or run defense.. Shriekmaw is cheap, counterbalance-dodging removal which you can hardcast if necessary. Trini and Chalice are super-standard by now. Dimir House Guard makes a little toolbox possible, and fetches both parts of the combo. I would like some more independant CA engine if possible. Any thoughts while I'm still brainstorming?

Mystical_Jackass
11-24-2009, 03:02 PM
You're somewhere in-between control and aggro, more control IMO. Seems like you either need to drop the Trini's & Helm and go Aggro or fall back on control with Damnation and such and THERE you could slip in helm combo.

The problem when I ran MBC-helm stax deck is protecting the combo. Unlike Painter (chant, abeyance, etc.) you have very little protecting the combo... you almost need hand removal spells or the route I went which is Stax... pretty much run your opponents permanents down to nothing, then combo out.

You might find many games you'll sucker punch someone Game1, then they'll come back prepared and destroy you which is what happened to me, butdeffinitely try it out and see how it works, the biggest problem for me was the life loss so it could be amazing OR suck depending on your matchup :)

AcidFiend
11-29-2009, 05:40 AM
As a caveat, I don't own Faerie or Demon Stompy, but want to build one of them. So this post is as much for myself as anyone else and I have no previous biases.

Can anyone tell me what advantages this deck has over Faerie Stompy? This is how I see it...

Most lists I've seen (and for the sake of this argument), lets use the same basic base of:

3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Other lands

You're base is built to screw over CC 1/2 based decks. The section up for debate is the ~28-30 cards used to win.

An example Faerie/Sea Stompy base:
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Shoreline Ranger
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle/Relic of Progenitus

First thing is most Faerie Stompy lists forgo Trinisphere for Force of Will. Its reasonable to assume someone has tested this as being better, though I will come back to this later. It should be noted though that the deck can operate under an opponents Trinisphere. There are a number of viable decks running it (Stompy & Stax variants), and playing against them makes their 3-Spheres near-dead (it does ironically make Force harder to cast).

Creature breakdown:
19/23 creatures have evasion (flying - probably the best evasion as it gets around Moat effects)
19/23 creatures have 2U CC (ideal)
15/23 creatures have useful abilities (drawing, tap/untap, creature steal, landcycle, artifact tutor)
4/23 have abilities which could be good/bad (returning lands)
4/23 have negative effects (1 dmg from Serendib)

Power Toughness Breakdown:
11 x 2/2
3 x 2/1
5 x 3/4
4 x 4/3
Average: 2.57/2.48

Other things of note: As the deck has 4 Trinket Mage (and 4 Mulldrifter), Faerie Stompy can support 1-2 'toolbox' artifacts. These are meta dependent but could be Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, Chalice, Seat of the Synod, Engineered Explosives. Having ready access to either of these in your MD without taking up much room is pretty awesome.

Sideboard:
These lists are also meta dependent, but some of the more popular options Blue has at its disposal are:
-Glen Elendra Archmage
-Weatherseed Faeries
-Rushing River
-Back to Basics
-Propaganda

These all fit the mana curve and artifacts such as Relic/Tormod's can be tutored.

Let's grab a Demon Stompy list for comparison:
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Shriekmaw
4 Priest of Gix
3 Bane of the Living
1 Twisted Abomination

12/24 creatures have evasion (shadow, fear, trample, though the last two are more conditional)
15/24 have 2B CC (ideal)
18/24 have useful abilities (draw, doom blade, acceleration, sweep, swampcycle & regenerate)
4/24 have negative abilities (Negator)

Power Toughness Breakdown:
4 x 2/1
4 x 5/5
4 x 3/2
4 x 3/3
4 x 3/1
1 x 5/3
4 x 4/3

Average: 3.54/2.63 (assuming Bane is flipped)

Sideboard: Possibly the major reason to go Demon Stompy, Black has some awesome sideboard cards.
-Leyline of the Void/Planar Void
-Duress
-Snuff Out
-Engineered Plague
-Perish/Damnation

Conclusions: The major difference between the decks is the level of evasion and to a lesser extent card-advantage/selection and answering threats. On paper FaS would get a lot more out of its equipment than DeS due to the high number of flyers. I really wish there were more evasive black creatures DeS could utilize.

How to make DeS better: Firstly I think it needs more evasion. Most of these have all been mentioned before but perhaps some deserve a second look:
2B: Daggerclaw Imp, Deepcavern Imp, Bone Shredder, Stinkweed Imp.
3B: Final-Sting Faerie, Crazed Skirge, Gloom Drifter
2BB: Horobi, Howling Banshee, Mirri, Shimian Spectre

The major problem I see with this deck however is the disynergy with Chalice @ 1 & discard effects. Without discard, the deck pretty much auto-loses when an opponent:

-resolves Moat/Elephant Grass
-resolves Solitary Confinement
-resolves Natural Order on Progenitus
-gets their God 'combo hand' (ANT, Dredge, Painter)
-resolves reanimated Iona naming Black

These are just some examples. Faerie Stompy can throw a Force at these threats, but Demon Stompy just scoops. I think in a heavy heavy Aggro meta Demon Stompy could pack extra removal such as 4 Edict MD and out-race them, but it could struggle to be much more than a fringe deck if it can't answer the above at all.

To finish up, good luck to everyone who's working on this deck! I love Black and love the artifact-based disruption, so I really do want it to work, just not sure its there yet.

If I had to run a list I'd probably try a creature suite like this:

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Daggerclaw Imp
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Shriekmaw
3 Shimian Spectre
1 Twisted Abomination

Ozymandias
11-29-2009, 01:18 PM
I think that you are missing one of the most amazing cards in the Demon Stompy list: Bitterblossom. This card is a) something that Demon Stompy can drop on turn 1 a lot of the time off of a dark ritual or a chrome mox, 2) Very hard for opposing decks to deal with besides countering (Only EE and Trygon predator are active MB enchantment hate, and they don't deal with the tokens) and 3) provides a recurring stream of chump blockers/Jitte carries/an eight-turn clock irrespective of whatever else is going on. Granted, it has a slight dyssynergy with Chalice at 2, but either a) you can cast Bitterblossom first because it is cheaper, b) you've curved out into the draw of :2:-land, Chalice at 1, :2:-land, Chalice at 2 and you will probably win the game versus the decks that beats anyhow. Phyrexian Processor is a magnfied version of the same argument, but they might be too much life loss all told. One other good Stompy creature that ports right over is Gathan Raiders. It gives you a use for random accelerants, etc sitting in your hand, and is then a 5/5 for 3 colorless. In extremis you could even look at Masticore as a possible thing to cast, as its only vulnerability is StP, it's castable off of colorless lands, and it is a machine gun.

You made a list of stuff that just wins vs. Demon Stompy. Some of those are actually quite rare, but some are in fact annoying. I first thought of running Leyline maindeck even before I thought about Helm, as part of a "griefer" suite of Leyline, Plague, Chalice, and Trinisphere. It shuts down a few strategies cold if you open on it, and it even does a few more useful things, like shrinking Goyf and Mongoose, ending Crucible recursion. You can even hard-cast Leyline easily if you draw it. I thought about running just 4x Leyline 4x Helm, but the odds of just drawing both in your opener are 15%. Adding 4 tutors boosts your odds to 25%, but I think plan "raw-dog" is better, because neither half is terrible on its own and your other slots have better uses than Stompy-compatible tutoring.

Maveric78f
11-30-2009, 07:09 AM
Trying to make Faerie Stompy in black is as stupid as trying to build a burn deck in white.

What are the strengths of DeS in comparison with other stompy decks:
- Bitterblossom and Stinkweed Imp: ensure you won't lack equipment wearer / blockers
- Creature removal
- Braids (this card is so fucking good in a chalice stompy deck...)
- Graveborn Muse is also very good, because it's hard to get rid of her (no smother, doom's blade, fire/ice, with chalice@1 in play or when it's equipped with SoLaS, there are very few cards to deal with her) and it nets a lot of cards.
- Leyline/Helm combo can also be an argument (but I actually don't like it much because it makes curve too high)
- Sideboard (perish, plague, leyline if not MD, cranial extraction)

The black stompy archetype is more controlish that other colour stompy decks. The deck I play right now:

Mana base: 22
4*Chrome Mox
4*Ancient Tomb
14*Swamp (very sound mana base)

Creature base: 23
4*Stinkweed Imp
4*Bitterblossom
4*Braids
4*Graveborn Muse
4*Shriekmaw
3*Twisted Abomination

Artifacts: 15
3*Jitte
4*SoLaS
4*Chalice
4*Trinisphere

SB:
4*Leyline
4*Plague
4*Cranial Extraction (by far the best SB card, a kill against combo, the best response to deed, stops any recursion, very good against almost every deck cutting their key spells)
3*Perish

This deck adopts the control game plan in almost every MU and it can handle it.

SB plans in some MUs:
Against burn: nothing
Against Gobs: on the play, -4 Trinisphere +4 Plague on the draw -4 Chalice +4 Plague
Against Elves combo: -3 Stinkweed Imp -3 Braids -1 Twisted Abomination +4 Plague +3 Perish
Against Survival Elves: -4 Chalice -4 Stinkweed Imp -1 SoLaS -2 Twisted Abomination +4 Plague +3 Perish +4 Cranial Extraction
Against Merfolks: -4 Chalice +4 Plague
Against TES: -4 Shriekmaw -2 SoLaS -1 Stinkweed Imp +4 Cranial Extraction +3 Plague
Against ANT: -4 Shriekmaw -2 SoLaS -2 Stinkweed Imp +4 Cranial Extraction +4 Leyline
Against Ichorid: on the play -4 Braids -4 Shriekmaw -2 SoLaS -2 Twisted Abomination +4 Cranial Extraction +4 Leyline +4 Plague, on the draw y -4 Braids -4 Chalice -2 SoLaS -2 Twisted Abomination +4 Cranial Extraction +4 Leyline +4 Plague
Against Zoo: -3 Muse +3 Perish
Against Landstill: Depends a lot on the build, -4 Shriekmaw +4 Cranial Extraction almost for sure, don't forget that plague on Soldiers can be very efficient. You might want to enter 2 of them to fight against Elspeth and Decree.
Against Enchantress: very tough MU. Braids is the key (they can't sac their enchantments to it). -4 Shriekmaw, -2 Imps, -1 Jitte +4 Cranial +3 Plague.
Against Tempo Threshold: very easy MU (Stinkweed Imp can't be handled). +3 Perish -2 Shriekmaw -1 Muse. Leyline might be good in the MU too.
Against CB Threshold: easy MU too, +3 Perish -3 Twisted Abomination
Against Dragon Stompy: -4 Trinisphere +4 Cranial Extraction (chalice is still good @0 against morph and chrome mox on the play)
Against Faerie Stompy: -4 Chalice -2 Twisted Abomination -2 Trinisphere +4 Cranial Extraction +4 Plague (Trinisphere is still good against Force of Will)
Against White Stax: -4 Chalice -4 Trinisphere +4 Cranial Extraction +4 Leyline

...

Infinitium
01-19-2010, 04:03 PM
So with the printing of Abyssal Persecutor this deck actually got a namesake worth including. Who'd figure?

In any case for it to work the deck might need to be reconfigured to include a number of sac outlets and probably a much more aggressive outline to begin with in order to take full advantage of the 6/6 Trampler. It also needs to take other aggressive decks such as Zoo in consideration seeing as it won't do much good racing creature hordes by itself.

Galroth
01-19-2010, 04:20 PM
Maybe add Contamination? I just posted a note in the Black Stax thread wondering if Abyssal Persecutor brought the deck back to playable. In retrospect, maybe demon stompy is better suited to take advantage.

Also, I noticed City of Traitors wasn't an include in the list posted below. Why not? Just too much mana acceleration between Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, and City of Traitors? I also see that Dark Ritual wasn't included. Figured that would be a standard card as well.

One last question: is it because Demon Stompy often plays a more controllish role that Bloodghast isn't included?

Muenstermagic.de
01-20-2010, 04:32 AM
MTGS' Worldwake Spoiler spawned this one yesterday:


Abyssal Persecutor
:2: :b: :b:
Creature - Demon Mythic Rare
Flying, trample
You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.
6/6

Could this one be an idea to give Demon Stompy a more aggro-ish swing? All you've got to do is get rid of him as soon as you've got your Opps on sub zero life. With Braids in the Maindeck there is already an option and black should not have a problem finding a neat sac-outlet.

This guy might not be fitting best into the lists recently suggested here, yet it is a new beatstick for mono black that grins at Grinning Demons and Juzam Djinns. Some way or the other there might be an (ab)use for him.

eq.firemind
01-20-2010, 04:49 AM
The new demon looks quite good in Demon Stompy shell.

I'm testing this list:
4 Ancient Tomb
10-14 Swamp
4-0 City of Traitors - For now I'm happy with 12 Swamp/2 City, but it needs a little more tests...
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Bitterblossom
2 Twisted Abomination
2 Shriekmaw

4 Trinisphere
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Grafted Wargear

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Perish/Pithing Needle

So there's 11 cards to get rid of Persecutor (4 Marauder, 4 Braids, 3 Wargear) after he's done his job and all the cards are good on their own in this deck.
The possible option is Recurring Nightmare (I guess in place of SoLaS), but it needs more work.
It lacks any draw, but Graveborn Muse will clog up 4-cost slot. I'm thinking about Dusk Urchins 'cause they promisse lots of fun with Wargear, but just can't find space for now...

Contamination IMHO just needs a little bit too much for what it offers, but its synegry with the deck is nice and maybe it has future.

Bloodghast looks out of place here - double black cost, not impressive stats, no way to dig it into grave - I don't know how to use it here...

Infinitium
01-20-2010, 08:50 AM
Another direction might simply be to eschew the card advantage engines the deck has and go for the all-in option with Grinning Demon and multiple Grafted Wargear since the 2-for-1 possibilities it opens up hurts the long game plan anyway. Also that would justify running Drinker of Sorrows, which I've always wanted to run due to the Phyrexian Negator-esque implications with a much more manageable drawback.

I'm a bit vary of Bitterblossom since it's very slow in general as a standalone threat and won't really cut it if forced to chump block, but the very obvious synergies with pretty much every other card in the deck merits testing. Anyway starting list for consideration:

// Lands
11 [UNH] Swamp
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [LE] Drinker of Sorrow
4 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
4 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
2 [FUT] Gathan Raiders

// Spells
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Grafted Wargear
3 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 [FD] Silent Arbiter

Pretty much Balls -> Wall. With Unmask I've got 11 early disruption spells followed by big creatures followed by a jump for the jugular. I normally loathe to use Trinisphere in any Stompy build since unlike Vintage actually finishing the opponent before they recuperate is such a rare occurence, but with this many big creatures and Wargear to boot it just might work anyway. I do like the way it curves though with the 10 morphs keeping the opponent guessing and every creature except Persecutor having the option of being cast for less than 4 Mana whilst retaining a stupid high average power.

Illissius
01-20-2010, 09:37 PM
Drinker has always seemed worse to me than Negator, but dunno. Maybe that's just because back when Negator was good what he was good against was control and combo decks.

zabuza
01-21-2010, 04:23 AM
With the idea of infinitum i´m thinking on another list.
My thoughts on it are:
// Lands
5 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ONS] Pollute Delta
2 [ONS] Bloodstained Mire
1 [FUT] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth´s
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [ON] Grinning Demon
4 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
3 [ZEN] Ob Nixilis, The Fallen

// Spells
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Grafted Wargear
3 [DS] Trinisphere


We have replaced the two worst creatures on the list (gathan and drinker) for tombstalker (another flying Demon) and ob nixilis (the ultimate Demon). We play several fetches to combo with ob nixilis and thining the deck a lot and play tombstalkers (not a full set because we fill the grave slowly).

Beside of that we play Urborg to prevent doing damage ourselves with tomb when it´s not neccessary and so on.

What do you think about?

eq.firemind
01-21-2010, 05:51 AM
Just a random thought: with 14 Swamp + 4 Mox + 2-3 Twisted Abomination the :b::b: in cost seems to be not a problem. How about 2-3 Vampire Nighthawk? It trades with anything in combat (like Stinkweed Imp) and is good in damage racing/recovering from self-inflicted lifeloss (Nighthawk + SoLaS otraces Progenitus :smile:).

Mark Sun
01-25-2010, 11:48 AM
I am very interested in this deck, actually. Obviously Worldwake hasn't been completely spoiled yet so we do not know what other surprises there are for us. But for now, I'm trying to make a list that uses Contamination + Bitterblossom and Abyssal Persecutor. Please bear with me as I explain:

// Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
12 [BD] Swamp (1)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

This will use Chrome Mox acceleration, so I feel that 19 land is enough. From eq.firemind's post above, coupled with the fact that some of the pieces cost :b::b:, 2 City/12 Swamp > 4 City/10 Swamp, even if I have an Urborg in the mix. Still not sure if that should even be there. But the point is, 19 lands we go.

// Creatures
4 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

Braids is here, obviously to sacrifice Persecutor in order to win. It also does well with Bitterblossom (duh). I'm not completely sold on Graveborn Muse, but this deck does need card advantage, and it can get it in the form of using life as a resource. Nighthawk is excellent, as it kills/trades with what it blocks and can get you some of that life back. The rest are pretty self explanatory. For some reason I'm death afraid of Goblins on the draw and the answer I could think of to deal with them is Shriekmaw and (see below).

// Spells
4 [MRD] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [FD] Grafted Wargear
4 [US] Contamination
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom

Okay, your generic playsets of Bitterblossom/Contamination. Grafted Wargear is the equipment of choice, since it doubles up as the beater and part of the win condition (sorta).

Edit: Way fucked up, forgot the damn Chalice in there.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [5E] Gloom
SB: 2 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [6E] Perish

Just your... generic G/W hate, GY hate, Tribal hate. Thought about Hymn to Tourach as well, but Chalice is probably enough to battle Combo o.O

Thoughts?

Occam
01-25-2010, 10:49 PM
Been testing out some lists with the spoiling of the persecutor, and I quickly realised that it solved none of DeS' weaknesses, namely that it is horribly slow, has poor card manipulation with no tutor effects, has too many cards with double black in typical lists, lost too much life, and had a real weakness to fast aggro decks. That said, the persecutor is a huge body whose drawback only matters when you're actually winning, and so I decided to pack the deck with large, undercosted bodies or cards like Bitterblossom while playing mutilate like supreme blue decks play firespout. That stabilises the tribal aggro matchups somewhat, and improves the zoo matchup as well.

My list:

(23 Mana Sources)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox

(21 x Creatures)
4 x Bitterblossom
4 x Abyssal Persecutor
4 x Phyrexian Scuta
4 x Stinkweed Imp
3 x Fleshbag Marauder
2 x Gathan Raiders

(16 x Other Spells)

4 x Grafted Wargear
3 x Mutilate
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Trinisphere
2 x Umezawa's Jitte

Some basic card choice explanations:

Bitterblossom: There really isn't a reason not to play this in DeS, as it increases the chance of a turn 1 play (and one which control decks need to counter). It necessitates the playing of more equipment though, and while it doesn't play defence or offence particularly brilliantly, it shores up some of the inconsistency that DeS has.

Phyrexian Scuta: Phyrexian Scuta isn't as good as plague sliver or Juzam, but both of those add to the inconsistencies of the deck by costing double black. It basically makes mulligan choices a lot more difficult and the deck more top-deck dependent in the early stages of the game. Grinning Demon is also a horrible card as it costs double black, and chips away at your life each turn. The Scuta is the biggest critter that circumvents all these shortfalls.

Stinkweed Imp: I would have loved to be able to play Nighthawk in this slot, but the Imp shores up non-mox hands while making mox hands a lot better by trading with nacatls/apes. It also decreases the deck's inconsistency by allowing it to spit out a creature every turn to carry a piece of equipment.

Other cards I would love to have included:

Basilisk Collar: The deck has huge critters in Scuta and Persecutor, as well as grafted wargear, while life has always been an issue. Basilisk Collar is also ridiculous with bitterblossom. Too bad about CotV, though.

Vampire Nighthawk: With six pieces of equipment in the deck that all complement Nighthawk, as well as its lifelink being a boon to DeS, it's a real pity that it doesn't make it due to its double black cost. If it were 2b, it would have been perfect.

Overall, the deck has been pretty decent, while still losing to itself at times and not being able to go all-out aggro like 5/3 or FS do routinely, but its stability has definitely been improved by dropping as many double black cards as possible, going for non-draw CA and VCA, and playing Mutilate. It still has 7 definite ways to kill persecutor, with mutilates and even jittes getting there at times. The list can probably still be optimised further, though.

slyfer
02-02-2010, 01:36 PM
has anyone tried "rite of consumption" ?
Sorcery, 1B
As an additional cost to cast Rite of Consumption, sacrifice a creature.
Rite of Consumption deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt this way.

The deck should be played with dark ritual to boost a persecutor on turn 2, then 4 grafted wargear that comboes with rite and with persecutor and bitterblossom :laugh:
Then play 4 negator, combo with dark ritual and persecutor again! :laugh:

I dunno about the protection package...(discard and removal? :really:)

festeringGAB
06-26-2010, 10:38 AM
hi,
i think this deck is very funny and competitive in this momen..
I make a list with persecutor and nether void..


// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 [ZEN] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
3 [LE] Bane of the Living
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [LE] Graveborn Muse
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
3 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [US] Priest of Gix

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [FD] Grafted Wargear
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [LG] Nether Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [UL] No Mercy
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Perish

I want play Bitterblossom but I dont know how I can cut in the list.. :/

GGoober
11-16-2010, 04:20 PM
Time for a necro!

I've been testing Mimic Vat in Demon Stompy due to its synergy with 'staple' creatures such as Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder run in most Demon Stompy lists and the result is quite alarmingly good (MWS testing though :/ but I'm going to take this to RL testing soon).


Here's the list:

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Bitterblossom
4 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Shriekmaw
3 Stinkeweed Imp
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Braids, Cabal Minion (she's so good, a turn faster than Smokestack)

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Mimic Vat

SB:
4 Leyline
4 Helm of Obedience
3-4 Engineered Plague/Perish
3-4 control/combo hate cards

There are some in-built synergies in the deck:
1) Mimic Vat + Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder/Braids
2) Braids + Persecutor/Bitterblossom/Stinkweed Imp
3) Bitterblossom + Jitte/SoLS is also good against Planeswalkers
4) Persecutor is removed via Fleshbag/Braids/super-charged Jitte
5) Stinkweed + SoLS as an advantage engine: dredging + recursion


As you can see, the deck is mostly built to hate on aggro and combo. 3 Shriekmaw + 4 Fleshbag + 3 Stinkweed holds most aggro board position well. It is very funny because this deck is quite strong against Show and Tell decks since you usually put in a Fleshbag. I've personally tested this matchup to be in this deck's favor.

Weak matchups include Vial decks (hey what's new for stompy decks...) and burn if you don't get in Chalice/3SPhere.

Braids is amazing in the deck. If she sticks you win. Bitterblossom is quite important in the deck, both as an initial defensive position until you get your big beaters/equipment/stinkweed online and serves as a win-condition later. Mimic Vat on turn 1/2 followed up by a Shriekmaw/Fleshbag is quite backbreaking against most aggro decks. The SB is mainly tailored towards GY-based decks such as Survival and Dredge, which happen to be your weak matchups again. You really need to mull for Leyline, and have the option to Helm them (with a stompy manabase). There are about 6-8 flex slots in the SB for metagame choices.

Mana Drain
11-17-2010, 12:51 PM
Metalwalker, I know it's desynergy with Chalice and sucks after the first 2 turns, but wouldn't Dark Ritual just speed this deck up and make it more consistent on the first couple turns? The lategame for stompy decks is always been terrible due to a lack of a draw engine, so the first few turns often decide the outcome of the game. A more consistent T1 Chalice, Trinisphere, or even Braids on the draw seems like win-more-often. Drawing it lategame sucks, but this deck needs to win fast or it will die in the lategame anyway. Also, Confidant for the Stinkweeds maybe? Carries equipment, beats for 2, synergy with Vat, and if unanswered more than likely wins the game. This is pretty much a Sui deck anyhow. Just a though...

GGoober
11-17-2010, 12:56 PM
I really have not tested Dark Ritual so I can't say right now. On paper and the general consensus is that it's bad. I can see how drawing hands with Ritual Chalice shouldn't be a problem because I'll Ritual out the Chalice/threats. It's only drawing Ritual late-game that blows with a Chalice/3Sphere in play. I don't doubt the power of Ritual. I've seen some crazy shit it's pulled out. My key question is what should I cut? Confidant is bad in Demon Stompy I've tested him. Drawing cards is always good, but a 2/1 doesn't cut it when he's sitting there flipping you 3-4cmc cards. Graveborn Muse is much stronger but that would require dropping some 4cmc cards to avoid screwing up the 4cmc mana curve.

I think I can cut Stinkweed, but that guy is quite amazing even without an equipment. With an equipment he gets a little silly lol. But a 1/2 flyer probably is too weak for this deck. The only reason why I wouldn't cut him is my threat density will be very low if I dropped another 3 creatures. unlike Green/Red/Blue stompy, black actually doesn't have enough decent beaters. I opted for a less beat down and more prison style-defensive approach as seen by cards like Shriekmaw/Fleshbag/Bitterblossom/Stinky/Braids, but all these cards will lock the aggro board out and then beat down once you get an equipment into play.

AlterEgo
11-17-2010, 04:59 PM
What about Phyrexian Totem? A 5/5 one-time trampler for three, that can also tap for {B} and is invulnerable to sorcery speed removal... sounds not too bad...


How often do you have nothing to imprint into Chrome Mox? Could Lotus Petal (aided by the Totem) be a subtitute?

GGoober
11-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Chrome Mox sometimes is a dead card, about 15-20% of the time on turn 1 due to lack of black to imprint. Either I have to imprint my only black card and end up playing lockpieces/equipments and no threats (i.e. these hands have to be mulled) or I have to wait to draw a black card. The list has a fairly high colorless count, which doesn't help this. Totem was played in older lists but doesn't solve the main problem aka getting black mana on turn 1. Totem would still require Chrome Mox to support it, which doesn't solve the problem.

I'm actually interested in testing 3 Dark Rituals to up the black count as Mana Drain suggested. Even if they become a bad topdeck or a dead topdeck later, it might be the only option that Demon Stompy have for a Spirit Guide effect. Lotus Petal can definitely be an option as wel but I feel that if Petal and Ritual both serve the purpose to fuel out turn 1 plays (which I think their main purpose is), I'll go with Ritual for raw power.

AlterEgo
11-18-2010, 01:32 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean the Totem as a replacement for Mox, but rather for a creature Slot.

Mystical_Jackass
11-19-2010, 12:28 AM
I think Totem woirks better in Pox, especially under The Abyss. It's sorta mana intensive, I honestly think I'd just run Negator if I ran this deck instead.. drop Chalice 1, Negator, Snuff out any blockers and swing through. Faerie Stompy was good 'cause it could play a 4/3 flyer turn1 backed by FoW/Chalice.. it's supposed to be all in, so I don't think it's out of line to go big or go home. I've seen a lot of lists that just look slow, all these weak creatures like Flashbag Marauder, I understand it's good in some decks but Stompy should put them on an immediate clock imo.

Another idea I had, for those running full Chalice & 3sphere was to run Nether Void, too. Turn1 Trinisphere followed by Nether Void is pretty much game over for your opponent if you run like 6 manlands. And if you run wastes by the time they get enough mana to stop your land rush it'll be game over.

Sims
11-20-2010, 11:14 AM
I think Totem woirks better in Pox, especially under The Abyss. It's sorta mana intensive, I honestly think I'd just run Negator if I ran this deck instead.. drop Chalice 1, Negator, Snuff out any blockers and swing through. Faerie Stompy was good 'cause it could play a 4/3 flyer turn1 backed by FoW/Chalice.. it's supposed to be all in, so I don't think it's out of line to go big or go home. I've seen a lot of lists that just look slow, all these weak creatures like Flashbag Marauder, I understand it's good in some decks but Stompy should put them on an immediate clock imo.

Another idea I had, for those running full Chalice & 3sphere was to run Nether Void, too. Turn1 Trinisphere followed by Nether Void is pretty much game over for your opponent if you run like 6 manlands. And if you run wastes by the time they get enough mana to stop your land rush it'll be game over.

And at that point aren't you basically playing a watered-down Black Stax? I agree, the lock provided by Trini and Void is awesome, but the manlands feel out of place to me in this deck, and casting everything at 6 mana yourself seems weak. We don't really have a black Baneslayer to make waiting til that point worth it.

I used to play Chalice Black in the old 1.5/Legacy, and Negator was a bomb back then. But creatures area lot better now. If you can't secure chalice at 1 before Gator, he's worthless. And that's assuming you have a removal spell to deal with the amount of bears the format is playing. I like Gator, i'd probably run him anyways, but i'm not sure he's the best fit in this age.

jamis
11-24-2010, 05:02 PM
I started testing this deck online. I really like the way it plays and I think it's well-positioned in the current meta.

Here's what I'm playing (it's mostly the deck Metalwalker posted on the last page):

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Bitterblossom
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Shriekmaw
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Braids, Cabal Minion

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Mimic Vat

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Damnation
(currently forgetting my other 7 SB cards, and don't have MWS on this computer)

I really want to move Damnation to the mainboard, but don't know where it would fit. It's really awesome, though and between Bitterblossom, Mimic Vat, and Persecutor, it fits perfect.

GGoober
11-24-2010, 05:07 PM
Glad to see someone interested in the deck. Persecutor has been a card that I have been trying to work in Legacy, and incidentally I recently realized that the Demon Stompy shell/manabase/creaturebase supports Mimic Vat without much allteration.

Coincidentally, this deck will have more than favorable matchups against Emrakul decks, Progenitus is a problem but you have quite a lot of removal MD to stop them from ever natural ordering, The only issue I had with the deck is the loss of life which is why I opted for Jitte + SoLS instead of SoFI.

Did you like Braids? She synergizes very nicely with Persecutor and BB, how did the Nighthawk work for you? I was thinking 1BB is straining the BB requirements of the deck. 2BB isn't that bad because you should have BB up on turns 3-4.

The deck still has the stompy inconsistency issues but that's what you get for playing stompy!

jamis
11-24-2010, 08:15 PM
Braids is quite awesome, and landing an early BB+Braids is strong a enough soft-lock to win against many decks I've been finding. I just started testing Nighthawk in Stinkweed's place. I agree that lifeloss is a big problem with this deck, which is why I added Nighthawk. It doesn't normally come down as fast as Stinkweed due to the double black cost, but it wears a Jitte amazingly. I hardly ever dredged with Stinkweed, so it seems like a fine replacement.

Mystical_Jackass
11-24-2010, 11:47 PM
If you're going for Fleshbag & Shriekmaw, has anyone tried Recurring Nightmare? It would work well with Bitterblossom & Persecutor as well.
EDIT: okay, I see Mimic Vat. Seems like an alright replacement maybe.

On that note, I really suggest Contamination in the SB. I've gone against Land decks with quite a few black aggro decks, it sucks, it's not fun. But with Moon effects you can just flat out win! Leyline is good, but many times not good enough.

From experience, I like Braids but without Crucible she's just really risky. Oftentimes a waste to your Tombs can leave you stuck with cards in your hand costing you the game. Double-edged sword. Better in stax with Mox Dmds imo.

GGoober
11-25-2010, 04:19 PM
I'll test Nighthawk, Stinkweed has sometimes been doing nothingbut chumping and dredging, Nighthawk might be worthwhile since with an equipment he gets very scary.

Mystical_J, Braids sometimes backfires on you, but note that you run 60 permanents, so most decks theoretically cannot match your "stax" position. If you draw a Bitterblossom, it's quite over for your opponents. The best thing about her v.s Smokestax is that she applies her ability immediately, and actually doesn't say permanent, but says A/C/L/, which hurts more since you're limiting the choices your opponent has. E.g. It's quite brutal against countertop if they have only countertop on board. They will have to sac lands/creatures while she continues to pressure.

eq.firemind
11-30-2010, 04:11 AM
I discovered a trick that makes Braids better:
If you have Mimic Vat and Braids, Cabal Minion in play, at your upkeep you can sac Braids, imprint her on Vat and make a token at your end step. This way, the token will stay in game until end of opponent's turn, eating his permanent and providing a chumpblock. Eating a permanent for 3 mana per turn starting from turn 4-5 is gamebreaking vs control and the chumpblock makes your aggro opponent slower, giving you enough time to lock him out.

GGoober
11-30-2010, 11:33 AM
That situation has never occured for me, but now that you mention it, it's a way to cheat Braids by not saccing your permanents but still applying to them, and at the same time making their StPs/removals against Braids pretty much worthless when you employ this trick with Vat + Braids. Good stuff eq.firemind, this is getting more interesting. Has anyone else tested with Vat (in this or other shells)? It's been a recent inclusion when I was trying to 'break' Vat in Legacy. I tried it in a UBG Thresh/Countertop shell with Shriekmaws but this is the best shell that I've found (stompy manabase justifies running cards like Fleshbag, Shriekmaw, Vat, and now the new Braids trick is quite powerful too, not to mention you can always imprint a Shriekmaw'd opponent's creature).

Mr. Safety
11-30-2010, 02:30 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems like there is quite the debate between Dark Ritual and Chalice of the Void

Is there a reason that Cabal Ritual couldn't solve that problem? You get acceleration along with dodging the 1 mana cost that Chalice is hating on. Once threshold is attained, its all gravy.

I'd also be interested in thoughts about Seizan, Perverter of Truth It can quicken the clock, provide you with cards, and also gives you a 6/5 beatstick. It gives your opponent cards too, but if you have Trinisphere, Wasteland, and Chalice of the Void you should still be able to work around it.

Mystical_Jackass
11-30-2010, 05:45 PM
The problem with either rituals is:
(1) They don't fit the mana scheme well (ie. :2:, :3:, :2::b:)
(2) They're not permanents (so opening yourself up to more 2-for-1's and less effective under Braids)
(3) Hindered by Chalice/3Sphere

Cabal Ritual is just bad here, you're losing precious card selection and advantage for +1 mana (Thresh will not happen in a Stompy deck). Leaden Myr would almost be a better substitute >.>


I'd also be interested in thoughts about Seizan, Perverter of Truth

But if ON any of their next two turns, your opponent destroys it... you pretty much Sign in Blood targetting them; I can't think of any situation where you'd want this card it's dangerous. There's better options for 5 mana, like winning turn 3 with Helm of Obedience :)

DarthVicious
12-16-2010, 12:25 PM
What about Aether Vial?

Not sure it really fits here, but I can't find a monoblack aggro thread anywhere. I can post a list later if anyone likes.

abetman
04-12-2012, 05:33 PM
You guys mentioned that the deck has issues with life loss, have you considered running Batterskull?

For creature removal does Bane of the living still work? Or is he too mana intensive?

You could also use Graveborn Muse as a draw engine.

Barook
04-12-2012, 06:40 PM
Thoughts about Demonic Taskmasker (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129836&d=1333944194)?

abetman
04-12-2012, 08:43 PM
Taskmaster looks good. Since we would be able to get him out by turn 2, and would not be affected by thr trinisphere lock.

The only downside I see is that he would be the lone beater, since we would not be able to cast other critters as long as he is on the board.

nedleeds
04-12-2012, 08:49 PM
You could run some Chimeric Idols and Phyrexian Totems out there.

Darkenslight
04-13-2012, 04:00 AM
Taskmaster looks good. Since we would be able to get him out by turn 2, and would not be affected by thr trinisphere lock.

The only downside I see is that he would be the lone beater, since we would not be able to cast other critters as long as he is on the board.

I strongly suspect that a build with tons of activatable artifacts to smash face with would be amusing. Cards like Phyrexian Totem, Chimeric Idol and other such sillies seems like a good alternate plan to Demon Aggro.

Aernil
04-13-2012, 07:02 AM
Obviously you have to play a good amount of equipment to get the best out of taskmaster.
Generally it seems to be a bad idea to run those activated creatures (you'd have too many artifacts to support Chrome Mox, reducing the overall explosiveness).

Currently I'm testing something like this:

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors

4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Dusk Urchin
4 Shriekmaw
2 Phyrexian Negator

4 Chrome Mox
4 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana Vess
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void


Bitterblossom seems to be a solid choice with all those equipments.
Liliana adds some flexibility. Urchin seems decent when carrying a sword.

Hireax
04-13-2012, 09:13 AM
I suppose that CotV is nearly always dropped at 0 or 1, so for mass creature removal, why not run Black Sun's Zenith? 2 of these might actually complement the CotV when you need it to.

Could Necroskitter work in this deck? Should an opponent come out with big creatures, for example in D. Stompy, this would complement the use of some removal. I reckon that BB would not be too much of a problem here.

Looking forward to see this develop :).

Aernil
04-13-2012, 09:41 AM
Usually Chalice is dropped to 1, to 2 just when you have multiples.
Imho Necroskitter needs too much setup to be any good.
And playing Zenith would mean to kill off your own Marauders and more importantly, playing a card that does not kill or help to kill.

Marchangel
09-09-2012, 12:40 PM
They spoiled this new guy, looks quite good to me:

http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ravnica-spoiler.html#6453

What do you guys think?

Gheizen64
09-09-2012, 01:29 PM
They spoiled this new guy, looks quite good to me:

http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ravnica-spoiler.html#6453

What do you guys think?

It's worse than a 6/6 for 2BB without flying. Does that sound playable to you? The card's trash. Persecutor's much better.

Cire
10-08-2013, 04:16 PM
Sort of want to make this deck work, since it looks like a lot of fun, so I apologize for the Necro. . .

Demon Stompy

*24 Mana Sources
4 Swamp
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Chrome Mox
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

*12 Lock Peices
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Nether Void

*4 Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Shriekmaw

*12 Demons
4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Desecration Demon
4 Abyssal Persecutor

----

So nothing really new - Desecration Demon was mentioned and passed over in the post right above mine, but i think it should be given a more careful look. I still don't understand why this deck never played the most powerful black lock piece ever made with Nether Void? It provides hilarious synergy with Caverns and the demons (yes i know it is expensive - but in my group I have just been using a proxy and no one really minds). I do wish there was more room for sac outlets for the persecutor however. I don't know why I am posting about this deck now - Theros added nothing. . . this deck was just on my mind. . .

Mystical_Jackass
10-08-2013, 05:15 PM
Sort of want to make this deck work, since it looks like a lot of fun, so I apologize for the Necro. . .

Demon Stompy

*24 Mana Sources
4 Swamp
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Chrome Mox
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

*12 Lock Peices
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Nether Void

*4 Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Shriekmaw

*12 Demons
4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Desecration Demon
4 Abyssal Persecutor

----

So nothing really new - Desecration Demon was mentioned and passed over in the post right above mine, but i think it should be given a more careful look. I still don't understand why this deck never played the most powerful black lock piece ever made with Nether Void? It provides hilarious synergy with Caverns and the demons (yes i know it is expensive - but in my group I have just been using a proxy and no one really minds). I do wish there was more room for sac outlets for the persecutor however. I don't know why I am posting about this deck now - Theros added nothing. . . this deck was just on my mind. . .

Yeah I ran a very similar list, just one Nether Void though, a little while back. Mmm... I thought my list was sick on paper, the experience wasn't good, I personally don't think it holds up in the meta, just got slaughtered by Shardless, Maverick, Elves. Abrupt Decay could give two shits about Chalice or your beaters and neither do Liliana's/Jace's, and Percy can be a huge liability when they take out your sac, without better sac options. I just think that you straight up lose out in Attrition wars, Bitterblossom was the best card in my list hands down 'cause I could drop T1 3sphere into it and ride it for win, but I felt like all other big beaters were easily dealt with by these mid-range decks removal. That's basically it in a nutshell, I feel like you need to either just flat our win in 3 turns or you're going to lose if it ever turns into attrition, I'd mentioned before but I'd almost either just go Helm-Combo control or just go all-in with Bitterblossom, Sorin Markov, Braids, Unmask... drop 3sphere, drop finisher and hope to ride out to victory. Go ahead and try the Demon approach, but dont say I didn't warn you I guess >.>

Darkenslight
10-08-2013, 05:47 PM
Has anyone tried Homicidal Seclusion and Erebos, God of the Dead as possibilities? What about the Gray Merchant of Asphodel?

Mystical_Jackass
10-08-2013, 06:34 PM
Wups, above I meant "Sorin, Lord of Innistrad" not Markov.


Has anyone tried Homicidal Seclusion and Erebos, God of the Dead as possibilities? What about the Gray Merchant of Asphodel?

- Homicidal Seclusion is just awful, it's a bad and expensive SoLS with no CA being able to recur Shriekmaw or other creatures.
- Erebos is awful too, this deck plays very little :b:, mainly colorless sources it's not the right fit. It's essentially playing Greed, would you play Greed in a deck with ancient tombs?
- Grey Mercha-- ...all right, you're joking or I'm getting trolled at this point. Sure, throw in 4x Highway Robber, too. :rolleyes: