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Goaswerfraiejen
01-17-2008, 03:38 PM
I know, I know: it's been tried a few times before, and without much luck. What's new this time? I've tried to integrate it into a TES-like shell, since TES has a gazillion customizable slots. I'm a little too busy at the moment to put this through serious, hard-core testing and tweaking; accordingly, I've decided to post it here, in the hopes that someone else will take up the task and see how far we can go with the idea. It could well be a non-starter but, by God, it'll be a fun ride.

Why bother?

Well, if you like Dragonstorm, I think that this is the way to do it. I don't think this is any better than TES, and it probably has some consistency issues that TES doesn't at the moment. To be fair, a number of those can probably be fixed through discussion and tweaking. The main reason to play this, I think, would simply be for the sheer joy of beating face with hardcast dragons on your first or second turns, or opting for a Dragonstorm/Warrens/Tendrils kill to finish the job. At the very least, it's pretty damn cool. The cool thing, to my mind, is that you can win through more traditional aggression, you can win by opting for a combo-kill (of three sorts), or you can combine the first two options and supplement combat damage with a combo.

The deck:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bogardan Hellkite
3 Hunted Dragon
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

4 Orim's Chant
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Dragonstorm
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

SB:

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tranquility
1 Shattering Spree


I'm not sure if anything needs explaining; as I said, much of this is just a slightly adapted TES. I chose not to run Kokusho because Hunted Dragon is just about as useful, and has an immediate effect on the game-state. Also, it's easier to hardcast Hunted Dragon. Beyond that, I don't think there's anything particularly controversial going on. I'm just throwing this out as a possible option; if anyone feels like taking it up or improving it, be my guest.

Nightmare
01-17-2008, 03:43 PM
Isn't Kokusho like, strictly better than Hellkite in Dragonstorm? At the very least, it has to be better than Hunted Dragon.

Slag
01-17-2008, 03:54 PM
Hellkites have the benefit of sticking around after the storm, so it helps in odd situations like if your opponent has a creature and a STP. I think that if you run hunted dragon you should pop in one thunder dragon, which would kill all the knight tokens.

raharu
01-17-2008, 04:10 PM
@ Nightmare: no, Hellkite is strictly better because the ability triggers upon coming into play, letting you kill that turn, although I do believe that Hunted Dragon should GTFO for some Kokusho, even if you can't get more than 1 with Dragonstorm (if you want to keep any of them around after the DStorm). Maybe -3 Hunted Dragon, +2 Kokusho (so you can still have the gain 10 bit), +1 Empty the Warens (because it's an amazing Win-Con)?

Goaswerfraiejen
01-17-2008, 04:29 PM
Isn't Kokusho like, strictly better than Hellkite in Dragonstorm? At the very least, it has to be better than Hunted Dragon.

Like Raharu explained, Hellkite's a better tutor target because it sticks around, and its damage-effect is a CIP effect rather than a leaves-play trigger.

With Hunted Dragon vs. Kokusho, my reasoning was that hardcasting a single Kokusho isn't all that effective (due to the leaves-play trigger), whereas a Hunted Dragon can attack. Similarly, Hunted Dragon easily complements Hellkite because it has haste--so drawing a Hellkite obviously isn't the end of the world if you want to combo out through Dragonstorm. Likewise, as a complement (follow-up) to Tendrils or Emtpy the Warrens, Hunted Dragon is again probably more effective than Kokusho, since it deals its damage immediately (due to haste and flying).

Basically, it boiled down to the fact that I could see us using Hunted Dragon pretty effectively outside of Dragonstorm, whereas Kokusho seems good mostly in the context of Dragonstorm. Gaining life from storming more than one Kokusho in play is cool, but I think it's more effective to focus on dealing damage regardless of the situation. The other thing to remember is that at nine mana, you won't always have the luxury of using Dragonstorm as a win condition, hence the idea of using Dragonstorm's dragons as a complement to Tendrils/EtW; if you can afford to use two turns to win, then you can get away with much lower storm counts/a little less mana.

So yeah, that was the reasoning. Whether or not it's the right choice, I don't know--I'm hardly an expert on Dragonstorm or combo in general. I just want you to know that it wasn't a random or arbitrary decision. It may well be even better to have 2 Kokusho and 1 Hunted Dragon--at this point, I have to say that I don't know.

Gambit
01-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Is there a reason for running hunted over Rorix? Both 6 power and haste, hunted costs 2? less, but doesn't give any homies to your opponent.

Wallace
01-17-2008, 05:01 PM
So why would you use hunted dragon and not Rorix Bladewing? His almost the same creature without giving your opponent 2/2 dudes. The -1 toughness really doesn't matter when you should almost always be swinging FTW. If you're worried about Rorix being legendary then you can also use Brimstone Dragon, he is just as big as Hunted Dragon.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/P2/en-us/Card6605.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=6605#)http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ONS/en-us/Card39859.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=39859#)

Tacosnape
01-17-2008, 05:01 PM
Isn't six Hellkite/Kokusho better than 4, given that if you draw one, oops?

Also, Jack Elgin ran Sneak Attack in his as a solid alternate kill, coupled with if I remember correctly, Dragon Mage.

Pinder
01-17-2008, 05:42 PM
Isn't six Hellkite/Kokusho better than 4, given that if you draw one, oops?


I think this is why the Hunted Dragon is there, but I agree that it should be replaced by Rorix. I suppose they could be Kokusho, but then you have to grab two of them in order for them to have any effect at all right when they come into play, and then what if you draw a Kokusho?



Also, Jack Elgin ran Sneak Attack in his as a solid alternate kill, coupled with if I remember correctly, Dragon Mage.

Ha! The red DReturns. I really don't think it's necessary, though.

Shriekmaw
01-17-2008, 06:24 PM
Mike teachout and myself tried to put a good Dragonstorm list together in the middle of last year but was unsuccessful.

We opted to go with the straight black/red configuration to best utilize the rituals that are available. The creatures we used was of course Bogarden Hellkite, but also Kokusho as its a pretty good dragon on the spot.

Our list was very similar to the open post with the exception of using fetch lands and grim tutors as we played cabal ritual and getting to threshold was important.

Seemed like a good idea, but never worked out.

rufus
01-17-2008, 09:51 PM
Dragonstorm seems like it's better suited to something that regularly produces more massive mana like Sorcery-Speed high tide.

It also seems like Changeling Berserker or one of the other changeling champion cards might be viable as a supplement to the hellkites. To make hardcasting those more practical does require additiona creatures like cloud of fearies.

Bryant Cook
01-17-2008, 10:49 PM
If you have 9 mana couldn't you just IGG and win? I get it, it's a cute trick. However, I don't TES is the best shell. Not because it's my deck, but because when you have that much mana you're already winning. A B/R version with Cabal Ritual and Seething Song may be better.

Di
01-17-2008, 10:50 PM
Seething Song much? How easily can you cast Dragonstorm? Half the time it's gotta be 11 because of a tutor.

Cavius The Great
01-18-2008, 12:07 PM
I would love for someone to PM me an optimal Dragonstorm list. I have 4 Brimstone Dragon and 1 foil Rorix Bladewing that I would love to put to use.

xsockmonkeyx
01-18-2008, 12:36 PM
If you have 9 mana couldn't you just IGG and win?

Ding, ding, ding!!! I imagine if I shuffled this up I would be going the Tendrils route way too often to justify keeping it Dragonstorm.

Cavius The Great
01-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Ding, ding, ding!!! I imagine if I shuffled this up I would be going the Tendrils route way too often to justify keeping it Dragonstorm.

The benefit of playing Dragonstorm.dec though is that you can hardcast dragons and utilize a man-plan. Tendrils goes balls to the wall while Dragonstorm is able to beat face with hard casted beasties. I'm not saying Dragonstorm is as good as Tendrils, it just has it's advantages.

Oh, can I get Jack's Burninator list, perhaps?

xsockmonkeyx
01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
@ Goaswerfraiejen. Maybe you should add a maindeck Tendrils to give you the chance to go the Tendril's plan through Infernal Tutor. Gives you another option I guess.

Dilettante
01-18-2008, 02:18 PM
Dragonstorm only needs like 3 spells to go off on the turn in order to be effective as opposed to TES needing 5-7 on turn 1-2 or 9-10 to instagib. You can use cards with better pay-off. What gives you high raw mana? Some possible sources that can work are... Cathodion/Ashnod's Altar/Krark Clan Ironworks producing 4-5 right there, Su-Chi creating 5-6 with Altar. You can also use Burnt Offering and it provides Red AND Black mana for your disposal for this sort of deck, a single Burnt Offering creating 5-7 mana. You can also use Culling the Weak to create 6-7 with them. Sacrifice also provides a similar amount to Burnt Offering, though the colors are not as flexible. To stake out your initial mana that sticks around, there's Chrome Moxes, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors, Coalition Relics, and a few multicolor sources. I think Rite of Flame is a relatively weak card for you since it only generates net 1 mana unless you chance upon a second. You need abundance of mana rather than spell count, so Seething Song, Dark Ritual look good. In addition, rushing to put a Kokusho in play can provide you with another sack mana source and a kill mechanism that gets around needing to target or attack. Here's a possible shell, though it is only preliminary... and it completely lacks the protective mechanisms that TES offers... just something to think about:

Creatures (14)
4x Su-Chi
4x Cathodion
4x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Bogardin Hellkite

Spells (22)
4x Burning Wish
3x Dragonstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Burnt Offering
3x Culling the Weak

Artifacts (8)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Coalition Relic

Land (16)
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

Sideboard
4x Defense Grid
4x Orim’s Chant
1x Dragonstorm
1x Pyroclasm
1x Duress
1x Austere Command
1x Cleanfall
1x Shattering Spree
1x Empty the Warrens

It's just a shell to generate thoughts. It clearly lacks protective mechanisms for some matchups, but it is another way to look at it other than a plethora of quick mana sources like TES, where you pretty much need like 8-9 cards to go off.

Cavius The Great
01-19-2008, 05:33 PM
Dragonstorm only needs like 3 spells to go off on the turn in order to be effective as opposed to TES needing 5-7 on turn 1-2 or 9-10 to instagib. You can use cards with better pay-off. What gives you high raw mana? Some possible sources that can work are... Cathodion/Ashnod's Altar/Krark Clan Ironworks producing 4-5 right there, Su-Chi creating 5-6 with Altar. You can also use Burnt Offering and it provides Red AND Black mana for your disposal for this sort of deck, a single Burnt Offering creating 5-7 mana. You can also use Culling the Weak to create 6-7 with them. Sacrifice also provides a similar amount to Burnt Offering, though the colors are not as flexible. To stake out your initial mana that sticks around, there's Chrome Moxes, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors, Coalition Relics, and a few multicolor sources. I think Rite of Flame is a relatively weak card for you since it only generates net 1 mana unless you chance upon a second. You need abundance of mana rather than spell count, so Seething Song, Dark Ritual look good. In addition, rushing to put a Kokusho in play can provide you with another sack mana source and a kill mechanism that gets around needing to target or attack. Here's a possible shell, though it is only preliminary... and it completely lacks the protective mechanisms that TES offers... just something to think about:

Creatures (14)
4x Su-Chi
4x Cathodion
4x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Bogardin Hellkite

Spells (22)
4x Burning Wish
3x Dragonstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Burnt Offering
3x Culling the Weak

Artifacts (8)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Coalition Relic

Land (16)
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

Sideboard
4x Defense Grid
4x Orim’s Chant
1x Dragonstorm
1x Pyroclasm
1x Duress
1x Austere Command
1x Cleanfall
1x Shattering Spree
1x Empty the Warrens

It's just a shell to generate thoughts. It clearly lacks protective mechanisms for some matchups, but it is another way to look at it other than a plethora of quick mana sources like TES, where you pretty much need like 8-9 cards to go off.

I love this list. Burnt Offering is tech. Changes I would make.

-4 Kokusho
-2 Bogardan Hellkite

+4 Brimstone Dragon
+1 Rorix Bladewing
+1 Thunder Dragon

What do you guys think of those changes? I really want to put my Brimstone Dragons to use. :tongue:

rufus
01-21-2008, 09:54 AM
If you're already looking at banking mana production, you might also want to look at Grinning Ignus, Soulbright Flamekin, Bassalt Monolith, Basal Thrull, Worn Powerstone, and the like.

Really, it seems like you're almost always going to be better off with something like Braingeyser for 8 than Dragonstorm.

Cavius The Great
01-21-2008, 10:11 AM
If you're already looking at banking mana production, you might also want to look at Grinning Ignus, Soulbright Flamekin, Bassalt Monolith, Basal Thrull, Worn Powerstone, and the like.

Really, it seems like you're almost always going to be better off with something like Braingeyser for 8 than Dragonstorm.

Dragonstorm wins you the game, Braingeyser for 8 doesn't. :wink: And who plays Braingeyser anyway?

Sanguine Voyeur
01-21-2008, 10:14 AM
It also seems like Changeling Berserker or one of the other changeling champion cards might be viable as a supplement to the hellkites.In terms of dragon bundles, this seems like a good idea. If you storm for one Hellkite and any combination of Hellkites and Berserker, the damage is the same. Each Berserker either gets in for five, or dies, returning the Hellkites to damage again.

If you go Hellkite, triple Berserker, the kite deal five, is championed, the champion is championed, and the kite returns for five more. You then get one more Berserker with which you can champion the kite and swing for ten.

Dilettante
01-21-2008, 11:44 PM
In terms of dragon bundles, this seems like a good idea. If you storm for one Hellkite and any combination of Hellkites and Berserker, the damage is the same. Each Berserker either gets in for five, or dies, returning the Hellkites to damage again.

If you go Hellkite, triple Berserker, the kite deal five, is championed, the champion is championed, and the kite returns for five more. You then get one more Berserker with which you can champion the kite and swing for ten.

I'd say it's more of a risky 'win more'... The Changlings may be an anti-wrath chain, but they do not provide you the immediate win that a stack of Hellkites, hasted dragons, or Legend-ruled Kokushos provide. I still think the Kokushos are the best of the options since they get around targetting (like Ivory Mask and True Believer), CoP and other damage prevention sources, and can still be hard-cast to 'stake out' your mana to be burnt offeringed/sacrificed/cull of the weaked to additional effect.

rufus
01-22-2008, 02:02 AM
I'd say it's more of a risky 'win more'... The Changlings may be an anti-wrath chain, but they do not provide you the immediate win that a stack of Hellkites, hasted dragons, or Legend-ruled Kokushos provide. I still think the Kokushos are the best of the options since they get around targetting (like Ivory Mask and True Believer), CoP and other damage prevention sources, and can still be hard-cast to 'stake out' your mana to be burnt offeringed/sacrificed/cull of the weaked to additional effect.

The advantage of the Changelings is that they're much easier to hardcast. Notably, they're hasty, and have 5 power each, so they're not that much worse than hasty dragons.

Lego
01-22-2008, 12:53 PM
I still think the Kokushos are the best of the options since they get around targetting (like Ivory Mask and True Believer), CoP and other damage prevention sources

Which sees more play: True Believer or Leyline of the Void?

ninjabear
02-04-2008, 12:54 PM
I've been also wondering about the possibility of a Dragonstorm deck for legacy - just because everyone tries to put me down when I tell them - too junky, they say.

I also though that you don't need such a high storm count, but you need tons of mana (as many people have already said in the thread). So my first idea was to use the Chalice Aggro mana base for that. I see that again, it was not a new idea :)

But... is it reasonable to sneak in a "Sneak Attack" as alternative combo?
Are Dwarven Ruins and Sandstone needle nice enough to include?

The "good thing" Dragonstorm has over TES is that it's not so storm based, so it can combo through some of the Storm Hate (i.e, Pyrostatic Pillar). TES is probably better, though. Compared to Iggy Pop, Dragonstorm is almost graveyard-free (Rite of Flame?). So overall, Dragonstorm is not so easily hateable - it has some cards that hate it, like Shadow of Doubt, but "standard combo hate" is not so effective.

troopatroop
06-18-2010, 08:49 PM
Dragon Tyrant + Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund is 19 dmg. After a fetchland that's lethal, and only requires 2 storm. I'd imagine this deck wants some sort of backup plan. Even Sneak Attack plays guys that they can cast, so keeping Karrthus as the only dead card makes sense to me. Covetous Dragon is a 6/5 Flying for 5 if this deck opts to use Artifacts, which it definitely should now that Grim Monolith is unbanned. That doesn't seem too bad. Firespout might be a good maindeck choice, being a cheap answer to Merfolk, Zoo, and Goblin Swarms. I would probably go for a more controllish route, opting to play Extraplanar Lens and more Mountains.

lorddotm
06-09-2011, 05:49 AM
4 Dragonstorm

4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
3 Preordain

4 Seething Song
4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain

SB: 3 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 4 Wipe Away
SB: 4 Counterbalance

That's the Dragonstorm list I've been having fun with. It's pretty good.

Admiral_Arzar
06-09-2011, 03:27 PM
4 Dragonstorm

4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
3 Preordain

4 Seething Song
4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain

SB: 3 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 4 Wipe Away
SB: 4 Counterbalance

That's the Dragonstorm list I've been having fun with. It's pretty good.

This looks interesting. Is eight pieces of acceleration enough though? In the same vein, is this deck too fast for Lotus Bloom to be effective?

lorddotm
06-09-2011, 03:32 PM
This looks interesting. Is eight pieces of acceleration enough though? In the same vein, is this deck too fast for Lotus Bloom to be effective?

The amount of accel is perfectly fine. Just don't be afraid to run out Monoliths early. You only need 2-3 Storm to kill them.