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Puzzle
01-20-2008, 01:34 PM
First, a word of apology. I have been meaning to make a decent first post but between a new baby, a 3-year-old daughter and a huge business expansion, I just haven't had the time to. I have you'll forgive the brief aspect of this description and please do not hesitate to ask any question. I'll update this post along accordingly. That is... when I come back from a 1-week trip...



DECK :

Mana : 28
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

Combo : 6
4 Polymorph
2 Darksteel Colossus

Protection : 16
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle


Utilities : 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Fact or Fiction


Side : 15
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
2 Winter Orb
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast





CARD EXPLANATIONS :

- Mutavault & Factory : feed Polymorph. I prefer them to Nexus because the 2-toughness can actually matter (Fanatic).

- Dark Ritual & City of Traitors : make FoF and Polymorph so easier to cast, giving the deck a decent clock. It also makes the mana base very rich. I stayed clear from Ancient Tomb and the fourth City because I should never need two 2-colorless lands on the table together.

- Polymorph : says : "Pay 4U, sac a land : put a DSC into play".

- DSC : there are two just because of the risks of Swords and one getting into your hand.

- Protection suite : any question ?

- Utility : self-explanatory too. FoF is there to make sure the control matchup is positive. I may consider TfK or Compulsive Research instead, to re-shuffle any DSC but it doesn't feel necessary and FoF is just that much better.

- Pithing Needle : Maze of Ith is a pain, as is Wasteland, and Vial sometimes for that matter. Needle also stops random combos.

- Leyline of the Void : useful against 42-lands, stopping flashbacks and LftL. Bashing random combos doesn't hurt either.

- E-Plague : Gobs is one of the few problematic matchups. Fast mana + EP improves that a lot. The counter-measures for it work on no other card in the deck, making things difficult for gobs.

- Echoing Truth : catch-all solution to EtW and other nuisances. To be fetched.

- BEBs and HBs : red gives faster combos, gobs and REBs & Pyroblasts. Those compensate.




MATCHUPS :

- Threshold : I have a better clock and more disruption. Counterbalance doesn't stop the important spells. Threshold is still Threshold though : even to slightly positive before boarding and often after also.

- Gobs : a Lackey can race you and Incinerator can foil Polymorph. Slightly unfavorable before boarding. Slightly positive after (subject to number of BEB, HBs, REBs and PBs on each side).

- 42-lands : quite unfavourable due to Wasteland (+LftL) and Maze. For game 2, protected Pithing Needles, backed by Leyline. Krosan Grip makes things still very hard though.

- Combos in general : quite positive, as the protection package is huge and the side makes things even more ridiculous.

- Control : generally positive due to the protection package + FoF.



Again, sorry for the lack of details but ask away. I should be back next week-end.

Mental
01-20-2008, 01:50 PM
Just because you're a combo, you have to run Dark Rit? Seems bad. Why not go for a Blue-Based Stax approach with a combo win? With Propoganda and Ensnaring Bridge you should have a good game Vs. Goblins, with Trinisphere and CotV you should be fine against Combo and Threshold. Seems stronger and stronger whenever I look at it.

Try something like:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mutavault
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Island
4x Mox Daimond

-----29

2x DSC
4x Polymorph

-----6

4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Propoganda
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Crucible of Worlds

-----23

2x Fact or Fiction

-----2

What do you think?

zulander
01-20-2008, 01:52 PM
Ensnaring bridge + 11/11 creatures = stupid.

yawg07
01-20-2008, 02:02 PM
I'm pretty sure theres an artifact that does the same thing as Polymorph, also.
Proteus Staff, that's it :D

Also, why always DSC? Why not have a few things?
My personal package would go ...

1 Red Akroma (cant be swords or bounced)
1 Tidespout Tyrant (absolute beast)
1 Sundering Titan (does some extreme damage)

I think "Not Oath" is a better name for the deck :D

Jaynel
01-20-2008, 02:03 PM
So why pay 4 mana for a 2 card combo that nets you an 11/11 when you can pay 2/3 mana for a 2 card combo that nets you a 12/12?

emidln
01-20-2008, 02:05 PM
I was talking about this deck a couple weeks ago in IM and on the Storm Boards for both Legacy and Extended. When I was developing it, I noticed a couple things:

(1) DSC won't win you the game.

While it may seem counter-intuitive, Polymorph doesn't allow for a Turbo-Tinker play. You run no Time Walks. (Although Chant might be an interesting investment.) DSC is never going to attack before turn four (with dark ritual), likely turn six in your deck. Until that point you are hemmoraging life through fetches, forces, and thoughtseizes. Using manlands to stall might not even be an option for fear of not having something to sac to Polymorph. This all leads to needing something that immediately takes control of the game when it comes into play. I'd tell you that such a thing exists, and is called Platinum Angel.

(2) By the time DSC might win you the game, you've exhausted your countermagic and disruption suite allowing stray edicts (now played by everyone from Black Aggro to Goblins) and swords to ruin your gameplan. Even before getting Polymorph to resolve and give you your robot, it will be difficult surviving an aggro rush like that put on by Goyf Sligh or Goblins and saving your manlands from destruction on activation.

(3) Outside of kill condition choice, it seems as though a Landstill/MUC shell would be more suitable for the deck. As a mono blue landstill deck you still function reasonably well (without Polymorph->robot), you would just have the ability to put a significant threat on the table fast. Perhaps in this scenario, DSC would be advisable.

I think moving to Platinum Angel would allow you to better conserve your resources while letting you play better tutors. LDV probably doesn't want to be a 4-of in here. You want to find Polymorph, but extra LDVs are nothing but fodder to Force of Will. With Angel it would be plausible to add in Pact of Negation and Merchant Scroll to find it and LDV/Mystical Tutor. The nice thing about Platinum Angel is that once it hits play, all you have to do is not lose the angel. This lets you largely ignore spells early on that aren't immediately killing you and better protect your creature. Angel, being a 4/4 creature with evasion puts your opponent on a five turn clock during which all you are doing is scroll for pacts and countering anything that would remove angel. In this case, I would recommend going up to 3 Angels, since you can always Polymorph into extras as well as hardcast one of them if necessary.

One thing is sure, the interaction between extra Polymorphs and DSC is hilarious. It won't be often that you need dubs DSC, but being able to "kill" one of them to clone itself is awesome.

Puzzle
01-20-2008, 02:38 PM
I was talking about this deck a couple weeks ago in IM and on the Storm Boards for both Legacy and Extended. When I was developing it, I noticed a couple things:

(1) DSC won't win you the game.

While it may seem counter-intuitive, Polymorph doesn't allow for a Turbo-Tinker play. You run no Time Walks. (Although Chant might be an interesting investment.) DSC is never going to attack before turn four (with dark ritual), likely turn six in your deck. Until that point you are hemmoraging life through fetches, forces, and thoughtseizes. Using manlands to stall might not even be an option for fear of not having something to sac to Polymorph. This all leads to needing something that immediately takes control of the game when it comes into play. I'd tell you that such a thing exists, and is called Platinum Angel.

(2) By the time DSC might win you the game, you've exhausted your countermagic and disruption suite allowing stray edicts (now played by everyone from Black Aggro to Goblins) and swords to ruin your gameplan. Even before getting Polymorph to resolve and give you your robot, it will be difficult surviving an aggro rush like that put on by Goyf Sligh or Goblins and saving your manlands from destruction on activation.

(3) Outside of kill condition choice, it seems as though a Landstill/MUC shell would be more suitable for the deck. As a mono blue landstill deck you still function reasonably well (without Polymorph->robot), you would just have the ability to put a significant threat on the table fast. Perhaps in this scenario, DSC would be advisable.

I think moving to Platinum Angel would allow you to better conserve your resources while letting you play better tutors. LDV probably doesn't want to be a 4-of in here. You want to find Polymorph, but extra LDVs are nothing but fodder to Force of Will. With Angel it would be plausible to add in Pact of Negation and Merchant Scroll to find it and LDV/Mystical Tutor. The nice thing about Platinum Angel is that once it hits play, all you have to do is not lose the angel. This lets you largely ignore spells early on that aren't immediately killing you and better protect your creature. Angel, being a 4/4 creature with evasion puts your opponent on a five turn clock during which all you are doing is scroll for pacts and countering anything that would remove angel. In this case, I would recommend going up to 3 Angels, since you can always Polymorph into extras as well as hardcast one of them if necessary.

One thing is sure, the interaction between extra Polymorphs and DSC is hilarious. It won't be often that you need dubs DSC, but being able to "kill" one of them to clone itself is awesome.
I've got 0 excuse for not thinking about it but you're completely right about Angel. Most removal run hits Colossus anyway (Edicts and Swords), so it's only about Burn and Hooligan.
Angel is even hardcastable and may make 42-lands a bit more winnable (not positive though, Maze is a bitch).

I think you're right : 3 LDV + 3 Angel does sound better. Not sure about the Pact though : it's dead unless you're winning, isn't it ?



So why pay 4 mana for a 2 card combo that nets you an 11/11 when you can pay 2/3 mana for a 2 card combo that nets you a 12/12?Again, Angel is better but the Colossus combo had the following advantages over Dreadnought :
- only one card of the combo required in hand (card advantage).
- resilience to Deed and Hooligan.


Edit : Dark Ritual saves the time to get 2 more lands into play : it makes you go from 3 lands instead of 5, which saves 3 to 5 turns.

Metaknight
01-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Not sure about the Pact though : it's dead unless you're winning, isn't it ?

Kinda, it depends on whether you replace some of your control suit with it, which i wouldn't, i would just add to it, and then if worse comes to worse it becomes fodder for Fow, but when you have angel, it is the greatest thing in the world. i've had people scoop to (angel on field) pact hooligan and realizing that i don't have to pay for the pact, its that strong. Plus the 4/4 body avoids most burn creature removal, and flying means that it really is a four turn clock, and goyf can't do shit about it.

klaus
01-20-2008, 03:16 PM
I tinkered with your approach in a Stax shell (as suggested before).
Chalice is actually pretty strong, for it shuts down 1 of the 2 cards that harm your main plan. Also Edict is not played as much as STP, by far so what do u say?

3 Proteus Staff
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Powder Keg
1 Polymorph
2 Darksteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
4 Mox Diamond
1 Vedalken Shackles
(33)
2: ?

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitos
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Muta Vault
8 Island
(25)

Puzzle
01-21-2008, 02:49 AM
Also Edict is not played as much as STP, by far so what do u say? I actually had Warrren's Weirding in mind : pretty sure it's going to see play.

Pact is the thing in my mind right now. I'd consider it but probably only in a mono-blue shell, in which you need a solution to Krosan Grip. I'll think about it more.

emidln
01-21-2008, 03:36 AM
Pact is the thing in my mind right now. I'd consider it but probably only in a mono-blue shell, in which you need a solution to Krosan Grip.

And thus why I am no longer working on the deck. I couldn't figure out a good way to not lose to kgrip. You could probably get a second Polymorph to resolve within a couple turns, but it still doesn't stop them from attacking you below 0 and you losing to their Krosan Grip. The best solution I came up with was Counterbalance/Top and using something like Thirst and Shackles for my three drops. This isn't the best solution, but it was the best I had before I quit. Good luck!

freakish777
01-21-2008, 09:51 AM
8 manlands and no Standstill?

Happy Gilmore
01-21-2008, 01:31 PM
Especially with all the colorless mana you should be running the staff over polymorph. Did I mention that you dont even need the fatty in hand in order to find it? And staff allows you search for another one in response to a swords.

How bout something like this:

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Propaganda
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Powder Keg

3 Staff
2 Sundering Titan

4 Standstill
2 Thirst for Knowlege

4 City
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Multivault
7 Islands
4 Mox Diamond

Good complimenting strategies, if they swords a titan they then have to sack another round of lands. And blue is the most common land in legacy so you will never have to sack. And once you get only one titan in your deck you can stack your deck, and destroy all lands . Did I metion that you can search for titans under stanstill?

whienot
01-21-2008, 02:16 PM
And staff allows you search for another one in response to a swords.


Actually, staff can only be played at sorcery speed, but still looks great under a Standstill.

Isamaru
01-21-2008, 02:47 PM
Puzzle, compliments on putting this together. :smile:

A black splash doesnt seem to offer you enough. I think that Happy Gilmore's arrangement is quite nice except I don't think Sundering Titan is a powerful enough win condition. (The win condition needs to win no matter what they have out on the board, and Sundering Titan can be blocked or killed in combat at times... so Darksteel Colossus would seem better in that instance, even if reshuffling means Staff will never be able to stack your deck.) I'd also like to up the Thirst count to 3 or 4 in that list.

Willoe
01-21-2008, 04:19 PM
how about a creatureless version with proteus staff as a deck stacker? You could then combo out by the way doomsday does it. Seriously, consider the staff over polymorph. Anyway, cool deck :)

Mental
01-21-2008, 06:44 PM
Especially with all the colorless mana you should be running the staff over polymorph. Did I mention that you dont even need the fatty in hand in order to find it? And staff allows you search for another one in response to a swords.

How bout something like this:

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Propaganda
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Powder Keg

3 Staff
2 Sundering Titan

4 Standstill
2 Thirst for Knowlege

4 City
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Multivault
7 Islands
4 Mox Diamond

Good complimenting strategies, if they swords a titan they then have to sack another round of lands. And blue is the most common land in legacy so you will never have to sack. And once you get only one titan in your deck you can stack your deck, and destroy all lands . Did I metion that you can search for titans under stanstill?

Yeah I love your list happy, however, I think the Mutavault count needs to be at 4 to give this deck the consistency is needs. In addition, Proteus Staff is NEVER going to resolve against an informed opponent, so I would up the count to 4. Lego Army Man tried to make this combo work in an MUC shell if I remember right, and it was fairly interesting; though I'm not sure how successful. But I do like what we have going here right now.

Also, Goblin Charbelcher in the SB FTW.

Isamaru
01-21-2008, 08:36 PM
Yeah Charbelcher could be an alternate win condition... unless someone thinks of a Doomsday stack that doesn't need Conjurer's Bauble effects.

The Mutavault count definitely needs to be more than 2 (more than 6 in total, I'd suggest 7 at least) and while I think Staff might be okay at 3x, I think Thirst for Knowledge should definitely be increased to 3x or 4x.

A good discussion on a good idea :smile:

Illissius
01-22-2008, 12:35 PM
Interesting idea. I was tinkering with similar ideas a longish time ago and didn't find a build I liked, but Mutavault opens it up wide open again. I agree with other posters: whatever creature you combo into won't always win the game by itself, and the combo isn't the fastest one around, so it's better suited for some sort of control deck as a monstrous finisher. The obvious candidates are Landstill and Stax. (Why MUC, though, as some have suggested? There's no reason to stay one color, and the biggest potential asset of that, Back to Basics, is off the table already due to the manlands.)

I think there's three important choices to investigate: Polymorph versus Proteus Staff; which creature you find with it; and what shell you fit it into.

Advantages of Polymorph:
- It pitches to Force of Will (and Chrome Mox if you use it)
- It is one mana cheaper in total
- It clones DSC

Advantages of Proteus Staff:
- It pitches to Thirst for Knowledge, if used
- You can split the cost over multiple turns
-- it is one mana cheaper in terms of mana needed on a single turn
- It is reusable
-- if they kill the manland in response, you can try again with a new one
-- Titan recursion is pretty sick

I think Polymorph is probably the best choice for Landstill due to Force of Will, and Proteus Staff is the clear choice for Stax, because Force is a nonissue, and you are better positioned to accelerate it out over two turns and quickly enough to matter.

Moving on to creatures, the most notable options appear to be Darksteel Colossus, Platinum Angel, and Sundering Titan. It is odd that all three are artifact creatures, but can anyone suggest something else in the same league as these? I don't think playing a mix is a good idea, because you can't control which one you find, and you can only optimize your deck to best take advantage of one of them.

Advantages of Colossus:
- It is immune to all removal besides Swords and Edicts (Weirding)
-- but these are the most common
- It is the biggest, and kills, in literal terms, the fastest

Advantages of Angel:
- It stops a combo deck or attacking horde dead in its tracks
-- in other words, it prevents you from losing before you can win
- It is hardcastable
-- but costs the same total mana as Staff, so you question why the plan is not to hardcast it in the first place

Advantages of Titan:
- Removal doesn't stop the personal Armageddon
- It is relatively hardcastable
-- but powerful enough to be worth comboing out
- Manlands plus potential two mana lands put you on a good path for breaking the domain-Geddon symmetry as much as possible

Whichever one you would choose, the primary consideration is protecting it. Titan needs this least, and Angel the most. The three biggest single concerns appear to me to be Swords, Edicts (Weirding), and Krosan Grip. An extra manland can protect against Edicts, and Colossus is inherently immune to Grip: which is a big plus, because it is otherwise hardest to stop. For shutting down specific forms of removal, the best options I can see are Counterbalance+Top and Chalice of the Void (Meddling Mage doesn't combo with your combo), and beyond those, counterspells. Declaration of Naught might be good, but seems narrow. There's also Momentary Blink, Diplomatic Immunity, and friends, but those are far too narrow. (Is there anything else)? Stax plays Chalice, and Landstill plays countermagic; and CounterTop if it is Zvi.dec, but not otherwise.

For Stax, I think all three creatures have things to recommend them: Colossus can put the game away while you keep them off balance with lock pieces (and Chalice stops Swords); Angel shores up your weakness against aggro decks; and Titan has a lot of synergy with Staff and your game plan. Happy apparently favors Titan, and I'm inclined to agree, but I don't think it's open and shut. (The deck would, however, be built differently to accomodate whichever one you choose). For Landstill, I don't have a clear idea of the factors the choice should be based on, but my instinct says Colossus: because Titan doesn't really advance your game plan, and I don't think you have the resources to protect Angel for six turns, but three for Colossus is probably doable. I am starting to wonder if Angel is a viable choice at all, because to reliably protect her, you basically have to stop them from playing spells, and if they aren't playing spells, why do you need the Angel? It's probably best as a sideboard option against specific strategies (Dredge, combo, maybe Goblins), where the spells they play aren't ones which remove her.

And finally, the choice of deck.

Advantages of Landstill:
- The manlands couldn't be more perfect
- Best for holding the opponent off until you can break the game open with a giant dude (or dudette)
- Runs more search and draw to assemble the combo
- Can get rid of combo pieces productively if they're in the way (Brainstorm, Force)
- Countermagic to resolve and protect the combo
- If Zvi.dec, CounterTop is probably the best protection of all

Advantages of Stax:
- Acceleration helps you combo fast enough to matter
- Chalice stops the most popular removal in the format, Swords
-- or Weirding for a bit more mana
- other lock pieces can impede removal, to a lesser degree
- Can lock the opponent long enough for a giant monster to seal it
- Crucible is good with manlands
-- (your manabase is difficult: you want eight manlands, eight two-mana lands, four Wastelands, an Academy or two, sufficient colored mana, and space enough for spells, in 60 cards; and it doesn't add up)

I'm not sure which is better, but in the end, we are left with two most likely configurations: Either Landstill with Polymorph and Colossus, or Stax with Staff and Titan. I get the impression that, in terms of both deck construction and gameplay, Stax is best at maximizing the rewards of the combo, while Landstill is best at minimizing its costs. Which means that in Landstill the combo is likely to be either decently good or not very bad, while in Stax, it's going to be either awful or awesome. The only way to decide these questions is to test them.

Mordenkaynen
01-22-2008, 02:20 PM
Another idea for the deck: you can use Chimeric Idol which is not bad to help vs aggro. It will be also good if you run stacks-artifacted variant and is more useful if you use 2-mana lands (and ritual, :smile: ). The last advantage is that you can use polymorph when you have 4 mana instead of 5.

Isamaru
01-22-2008, 02:35 PM
Well said, Illissius.

I'd like to readvocate the increase of Mutavaults to 3 or 4 as they foil Warren's Weirding in more than one way ^_^

Illissius
06-22-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm necroing this thread.

Reason: Bitterblossom.

It's a powerful card, another way to power up Polymorph or Staff, lets you Polymorph for only four mana, and provides multiple targets for Staff.

There isn't a good way (that I've found) to tribally take advantage of Bitterblossom + Mutavault which doesn't involve a bad creature, before anyone asks.

EDIT - I'm not sure why this is in Format Discussion.

freakish777
06-22-2008, 02:09 PM
There isn't a good way (that I've found) to tribally take advantage of Bitterblossom + Mutavault which doesn't involve a bad creature, before anyone asks.

Secluded Glen if you need a 5th USea???


EDIT:

So long as people are considering cards like Sundering Titan, and Platinum Angel, why not try an approach with Red for Goblin Welder and Thirst for Knowledge?

It might turn out to be similar to Control Slaver decks, without power, and with 4 Polymorph instead of 1 Tinker.

Illissius
06-22-2008, 02:19 PM
Polymorph plus Goblin Welder is not a combo.

Something with Trash for Treasure, Show and Tell, and Burning Wish though, maybe. I suspect such a deck would be built almost exclusively around Sundering Titan.

raharu
06-22-2008, 02:31 PM
Why not just play the Gamekeeper shell with Ub for protection?

Sanguine Voyeur
06-22-2008, 02:33 PM
Staff is reusable and doesn't force you into green. Manlands also function as an alternative win condition or stall.

Bardo
06-22-2008, 05:10 PM
Moved to N&D.

Piceli89
06-23-2008, 12:15 PM
i tried that deck and it's very awesome with 2-3 show and tell and 2-3 proteus staff for the win. I used a control shell (top-CB- also fire/ice, counters..) in order to stall the game, controlling and fuck my opponent with my big dudes.. now i'll test the version with the 2 mana lands, but i'm not sure of relying only on staff .. manlands+standstill is nice (i used it too), but if we get staff needled (before chalice, it may happen) and we don't get kegs, i see it hard to go ahead..
However, the deck's pretty, maybe it's possible to get something nice !

emidln
06-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Is there a particular reason this isn't being put into a hybrid UB Landstill shell? It seems like being able to play Standstill/FoF as card draw to fuel card disadvantage counters would be great as well as let Factory/BB double as an alternate route to victory or even establish enough control to resolve a 2-of or 3-of Plat Angel naturally from 25 or so lands. I'm not saying this is anywhere near optimal, but in initial testing on MWS, it's been fun to play and doing very well:

// Lands
5 [ON] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [MR] Platinum Angel

// Spells
3 [IA] Counterspell
3 [HL] Merchant Scroll
2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [MM] Misdirection
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [PLC] Damnation
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MI] Polymorph

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

Things this list is missing:

1) Brainstorm
2) A way to turn Scroll into Polymorph outside of card draw (Mystical Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, etc)
3) A more than example sideboard
4) More stuff I'm forgetting

Anyway, it seems that something like this lets you win matches where you are fighting through KGrips drawn off the top or hidden with Sensei's Top/Brainstorm/Ponder.

freakish777
06-23-2008, 01:28 PM
Things this list is missing:

1) Brainstorm
2) A way to turn Scroll into Polymorph outside of card draw (Mystical Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, etc)


I think an obvious "solution" here is -3 Merchant Scroll, + 4 Brainstorm. I like Merchant Scroll, but the fact of the matter is we don't have Moxen like in Vintage for the turn 1: Blue Land + Mox -> Merchant Scroll -> Grab Force of Will to protect our bomb (or Merchant Scroll -> Grab our bomb) play. I'd drop 1 Damnation for the 4th Brainstorm.

Giles
06-23-2008, 02:22 PM
Honestly I do not understand why Counter-Top is not added. Counterbalence can hit anywhere between 0-5. Also Since a lot build have a contorl shell it can easy be fitted in.

Lurker101
11-30-2008, 04:01 PM
Here's a deck I made that abuses the card polymorph. I'm not sure DSC is the right choice for a creature. The deck needs work, it is largely untested and a bit slow. Here's the list:
Lands: 20
4 Plains
8 Islands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures: 6
2 Platinum Angel
4 DSC

Other Spells: 34
4 chrome mox
4 Polymorph
2 Wrath of God
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Raise the Alarm

The point of the deck is to play raise the alarm and then polymorph one of your tokens into a Platinum Angel or DSC. I need some input. Is this viable?

Phoenix Ignition
11-30-2008, 05:31 PM
Here's a deck I made that abuses the card polymorph. I'm not sure DSC is the right choice for a creature. The deck needs work, it is largely untested and a bit slow. Here's the list:
Lands: 20
4 Plains
8 Islands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures: 6
2 Platinum Angel
4 DSC

Other Spells: 34
4 chrome mox
4 Polymorph
2 Wrath of God
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Raise the Alarm

The point of the deck is to play raise the alarm and then polymorph one of your tokens into a Platinum Angel or DSC. I need some input. Is this viable?

You are running far too many poor choices in this version. The only reason you run plains is for the Raise the Alarm and WoG. Just switch to black and run Bitterblossom and Damnation. Secondly, don't run 6 fatties. run 2-3 of the same type, because as mentioned previously, you won't have a choice which one comes out, so you should just be able to plan on one of them.

Illissius
11-30-2008, 05:32 PM
Bitterblossom >>> Raise the Alarm; also, manlands. There's also no way in Hell you need 6 huge dudes: two should be enough. I built a U/B variant on this deck, and what I found from goldfishing is that it's really slow. (I didn't have Moxen, though.)

Edit: Goddamnit.

georgjorge
11-30-2008, 06:36 PM
In a Stax shell, Tezzeret might be worth looking into. Besides fetching staff, it can get some other nice things, like Crucible, Trinisphere, or maybe a singleton Ensnaring Bridge (you need to have some way to get rid of it afterwards though, or win with Charbelcher. Or animate it with Tezzeret and sac it to Polymorph after five turns of collecting counters). Pity you can't include Painter though...I think something like

-2 Staff
-1 Crucible
-1 Keg

+3 Tezzeret
+1 Bridge

might work. You can also side out Polymorphs + creatures for a singleton Painter + Grindstone (or two of each if you fear removal).

Oh, and it can animate a Staff to sac it to itself...if you don't draw one of your eight manlands. Seems rather cool than useful though.

Lurker101
12-02-2008, 01:04 PM
Bitterblossom >>> Raise the Alarm; also, manlands. There's also no way in Hell you need 6 huge dudes: two should be enough. I built a U/B variant on this deck, and what I found from goldfishing is that it's really slow. (I didn't have Moxen, though.)

Edit: Goddamnit.

I took your suggestions and added 4 bitterblossom, 4 Mishra's Factory, and cut white as well as moving the platinum angels to the sideboard. I still haven't tested it much though and the chrome moxes do help with speed.

Captain Hammer
12-07-2008, 09:52 AM
What do you guys think about this list?

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Powder Keg
4 Trinisphere
4 Propaganda
4 Chimeric Idol

4 Lightning Greaves
4 Proteus Staff
4 Polymorph
2 Darksteel Collossus

4 Energy Field/Thirst for Knowledge

2 Mutavault
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Islands

The mana base may need work, but I really like the spellbase.

It could maybe squeeze in some Standstill or Nev's Disk, but otherwise seems perfect.

Another option is...

10 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Propaganda
4 Chimeric Idol

4 Lightning Greaves
4 Proteus Staff
4 Polymorph
2 Darksteel Collossus

Dark_Cynic87
12-09-2008, 01:06 PM
Proteus to stack your deck like Doomsday was mentioned. I don't see why that wouldn't work.

You could run a full set of Helms, which cuts down the cost of a lot of stuff you play, tops work really well in almost every deck anyway (this way you could even go counter-top), and brain freeze would be the win-con. I guess you'd need a draw-4, and it'd be rather slow as you don't run enough accel...It could be something to look into I guess.

Pce,

--DC

georgjorge
12-10-2008, 02:54 PM
Stupid question...if your Proteus target is removed in response, you don't get the effect, right ?


I built up the deck (HappyGilmore's version with some changes), and I like it so far. It really needs something to deals with enchantments though...and Standstill is good, but maybe worse than Thirst for Knowledge, although having something to play on the second turn if you don't have any acceleration is nice.


EDIT: Actually, I'm now trying out Repeal (instead of Powder Kegs). Works pretty well so far, and has some synergy with Propaganda/Tabernacle/Trinisphere/Chalice. Also, Compulsive Research > Standstill.