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DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 12:43 PM
okay I have totally revised this idea... making it more focused on the Hellbent Mechanic... it now focuses on forcing the Opponent and myself to discard... it is still Red Black, but it does more with it than it did before.

I hope this version of the deck looks better than the previous version of the deck?

Current Version of the Deck
// Lands
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [DIS] Avatar of Discord
4 [DIS] Jagged Poppet
4 [FUT] Stronghold Rats
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [TSB] Fiery Temper
4 [WL] Firestorm
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

[u]Previous versions of the deck
Original version
// Lands
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [DIS] Avatar of Discord
4 [DIS] Jagged Poppet
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast

January 24th, 2008 version
// Lands
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [DIS] Avatar of Discord
4 [DIS] Jagged Poppet
4 [FUT] Stronghold Rats
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [FUT] Gibbering Descent
4 [TSB] Fiery Temper
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

[u]Match-ups
Forthcoming.....

Sanguine Voyeur
01-24-2008, 12:55 PM
I've toyed with black red chalice aggro decks, and have noticed a few problems;

Jagged Poppet is hard to cast. Because of its mana cost, this can't reasonably come down turn one. It doesn't support two mana lands and can only sometimes come down on turn two.

Avatar of Discord has to severe of a draw back. The mandatory two cards make it hefty card disadvantage and a terrible top deck. Again, the mana cost makes it unreasonable unless it's off a Dark Ritual.

rufus
01-24-2008, 02:14 PM
The anti-synergy has already been mentioned, that said, you might consider Unmask. Chalice aggro has a relatively high cc curve so Hoarder's Greed could be good, but you're trying to go hellbent.

Sanguine Voyeur
01-24-2008, 02:25 PM
For the sideboard, I think you are focusing too much on anti-Force of Will cards. Pyroblast isn't too helpful at the cost of disynergy with the underlying concepts. Goblins should be an easy match-up, like Dragon Stompy, the Plagues could be dropped. Pithing Needle is an all around good side board card that helps the deck against some of its harder match ups.

Tacosnape
01-24-2008, 02:31 PM
I think there needs to be a little less Tomb/City in this. Avatar of Discord and Tomb/City is not a combo. And if you're relying on Blood Moon to make this work, you ought to be running eight.

DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 02:31 PM
I've toyed with black red chalice aggro decks, and have noticed a few problems;

Jagged Poppet is hard to cast. Because of its mana cost, this can't reasonably come down turn one. It doesn't support two mana lands and can only sometimes come down on turn two.

Avatar of Discord has to severe of a draw back. The mandatory two cards make it hefty card disadvantage and a terrible top deck. Again, the mana cost makes it unreasonable unless it's off a Dark Ritual.

Jagged Poppet isn't really in the deck to be a turn 1 play. He is more of a turn 3 or 4 play.

Avatar of Discord, likewise isn't in the deck to be a turn 1 play... though I wouldn't turn down a turn 1 5/3 flier if the cost was 3 of my cards.

Honestly, the turn 1 and 2 plays are more intended to be Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon, and Trinisphere. Once you have these in play... you are pretty much set to play your kill cards.

DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 02:33 PM
For the sideboard, I think you are focusing too much on anti-Force of Will cards. Pyroblast isn't too helpful at the cost of disynergy with the underlying concepts. Goblins should be an easy match-up, like Dragon Stompy, the Plagues could be dropped. Pithing Needle is an all around good side board card that helps the deck against some of its harder match ups.

thanks, I will take that into consideration.

raharu
01-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Ummm... WTF where's the Dread Slag????

nastynate
01-24-2008, 02:47 PM
Jagged Poppet isn't really in the deck to be a turn 1 play. He is more of a turn 3 or 4 play.

Avatar of Discord, likewise isn't in the deck to be a turn 1 play... though I wouldn't turn down a turn 1 5/3 flier if the cost was 3 of my cards.

Honestly, the turn 1 and 2 plays are more intended to be Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon, and Trinisphere. Once you have these in play... you are pretty much set to play your kill cards.

Ummm...if the priority is a turn one moon, how do you get your black mana? You have to topdeck a swamp or imprint something with black on a chrome mox after dumping your hand on turn one, which isn't reliable at all. You need lotus petal to make this work even close to reliably. Running chrome mox (with at least 12 black imprints), lotus petal, and swamps each as four-of might make this a little more feasible.

On a related note, if your goal is to empty your hand as quickly as possible, how the heck do you expect to play avatar of discord? I guess you could hold cards in your hand (denying yourself hellbent) until you can play it, but that sounds downright terrible. The only way you can reliably get him into play prior to turn three (when your hand should be empty and it will be impossible to do so), is by using dark ritual, which has hawt synergy with chalice of the void (typically set at one) and trinisphere.

Where are the benefits of this over mono red? All I can see is the potential for crippling yourself with your own disruption or casting dark ritual into avatar of discord turn one without any of the essential proactive disruption that makes resolving or protecting it feasible.

FoolofaTook
01-24-2008, 03:24 PM
Avatar of Discord has to severe of a draw back. The mandatory two cards make it hefty card disadvantage and a terrible top deck. Again, the mana cost makes it unreasonable unless it's off a Dark Ritual.

I've seen Avatar of Discord run in decks that want to fill the graveyard fast and start reanimating. The 5/3 flyer kills really fast if you don't have a counter or immediate removal at hand and Unearth can turn the game into a rout on turn two. That deck was also using exactly the fast mana that the idea here is and was pitching Avatar of Discord to Chrome Mox. The sideboard had Cave-in and Unmask in it and pitched Avatar to those also.

I agree it has a real drawback but it also has some very interesting near-tournament worthy qualities.

fetchesbasiclands
01-24-2008, 03:31 PM
THE LAND
Badlands This is for those people who want lands that are both swamps and mountains. The problem I forsee with it, is that in a 7 Blood Moon environment, it is going to be pretty useless most of the time, being only a mountain. If you do decide to run Badlands, run 4 of them.

Mountain These are the most important cards in the deck, as they allow you to play your Blood Moons. I would recommend running 4 to 5 of them.

So,Mountains are better than Badlands in a B/R deck because they don't turn into Mountains with Moon in play?

Bahamuth
01-24-2008, 03:35 PM
Perhaps Tomb of Urami? It's not really synergetic with the Blood Moon's (but so is the fetchland), but it serves as a great Hellbent-enabler and puts a very decent beatstick in play.


Ummm... WTF where's the Dread Slag????

That's absolutely awesome. Please play some!

DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 04:00 PM
I have taken some of the ideas presented here and modified my deck accordingly...

rufus
01-24-2008, 04:21 PM
Hmm.... other cards you might consider
Delirium Skeins
Stupor
Persecute
Mercenary Knight
Stronghold Rats
Tombstalker
Street Wraith

DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 04:28 PM
Hmm.... other cards you might consider
Delirium Skeins
Stupor
Persecute
Mercenary Knight
Stronghold Rats
Tombstalker
Street Wraith

thanks I like the tombstalker idea!

Elfrago
01-24-2008, 04:28 PM
Mercenary Knight


Hunted horror looks way better

DalkonCledwin
01-24-2008, 05:35 PM
I have updated the deck so that it focuses more on the Hellbent Mechanic, and less on the Lockdown mechanic.

DalkonCledwin
01-25-2008, 12:17 AM
I have updated the deck to focus on Hellbent and Discard mechanics most prevalently. I hope the deck looks better this way?

Mental
01-25-2008, 12:46 AM
The only, and the ONLY reason to run Hellbent Stompy is Jagged Poppet. The card is NUTS. How can this even be argued?
You need to run 4. The ideal Hellbent Stompy play is T1 Land, Rit, Avatar of Discord, T2 Land, SSG, Jagged Poppet, beat.
That's a very quick clock backed by powerful disruption.
Tombstalker is weak IMO. It clogs up the hand and can't come down fast enough in this deck.

You don't need 8 Discard Effects. Thoughtseize > All
BTW, has anyone considered Rakdos Signet as a mana fixer? Seems strong.

DalkonCledwin
01-25-2008, 01:13 AM
The only, and the ONLY reason to run Hellbent Stompy is Jagged Poppet. The card is NUTS. How can this even be argued?
You need to run 4. The ideal Hellbent Stompy play is T1 Land, Rit, Avatar of Discord, T2 Land, SSG, Jagged Poppet, beat.
That's a very quick clock backed by powerful disruption.
Tombstalker is weak IMO. It clogs up the hand and can't come down fast enough in this deck.

You don't need 8 Discard Effects. Thoughtseize > All
BTW, has anyone considered Rakdos Signet as a mana fixer? Seems strong.

if not the 12 discard (cause Cabal Therapy is a discard effect as well) then what would you suggest I run instead? Burn? Get the best of both worlds?

rufus
01-25-2008, 02:13 AM
I have updated the deck to focus on Hellbent and Discard mechanics most prevalently. I hope the deck looks better this way?

It's tricky to follow development threads when there isn't a history of decklists. (I don't know what the typical etiquette for that here is.) Although I've been commenting on the lists, it's not that easy to compare from memory.

Some things are a bit tricky - like the interaction between Dark Ritual and Trinisphere. The ritual can still be effective as a limited color fixer with the 3-sphere in play, and is certainly a fine tool to power out a 3-sphere. Whether the two work well together can depend on other cards in the deck, and the local metagame.

The best way to see whether something works is to play it.

Cavius The Great
01-25-2008, 10:44 AM
Some cards to consider: Firestorm and Cursed Scroll. Both are really strong and worth testing.

DalkonCledwin
01-25-2008, 11:03 AM
It's tricky to follow development threads when there isn't a history of decklists. (I don't know what the typical etiquette for that here is.) Although I've been commenting on the lists, it's not that easy to compare from memory.

Some things are a bit tricky - like the interaction between Dark Ritual and Trinisphere. The ritual can still be effective as a limited color fixer with the 3-sphere in play, and is certainly a fine tool to power out a 3-sphere. Whether the two work well together can depend on other cards in the deck, and the local metagame.

The best way to see whether something works is to play it.

From now on I will keep a log of deck lists.... sorry.... I will see if I can get the original deck list as well... for comparison sake.

Slayer001
01-25-2008, 01:32 PM
This deck needs something against enchantments and artifacts in the board definately.

Sanguine Voyeur
01-25-2008, 01:38 PM
This deck needs something against enchantments and artifacts in the board definately.What artifacts and enchantments are there that can hurt this deck and aren't stopped by Pithing Needle besides Humility, Moat, and Ensnaring Bridge?

DalkonCledwin
01-25-2008, 03:20 PM
I think I have given up on this deck, but if people want to keep discussing it feel free... I will still take part in the discussions from time to time. However I think I am going to continue trying to build a good Dragon Stompy deck.

Slayer001
01-25-2008, 06:42 PM
The ones you named, are a pain in the ass if you get them against you
and can't get rid of them

overseer1234
06-05-2008, 03:06 PM
I've been tinkering with this deck concept and this is what I came up with:

4 Jagged Poppet
Strips your oppnent's hand when hellbent, and with some burn you might get there sooner than you think.
4 Gathan Raiders
5/5 for 3 when hellbent, and helps getting there :D.
4 Magus of the Moon
MotM>Meta.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Mana boost and since it's a card from our hand--> yep more hellbent, can be hard casted also, but that's not very impressive...
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
Without the mana boost from DS This one often gets stuck in our hand when playd as a 4-off.
2 Rakdos Guildmage
Really like this guy, turns dead topdecks (SSG, chrome mox) into removal, and can also invite some friends. This could also be replaces by: Grim Lavamancer (we do get our yard filled up pretty fast)/Rakdos augermage (really annoys control/combo players...).
4 Thoughtseize
Staple disruption.
4 Lightning Bolt
Easy to get out of your hand, removal and can go to the dome.
4 Seal of Fire
Less powerful than lightning bolt, but can be used as a threat just by laying there...
4 Delirium Skeins
Gets us hellbent REALLY fast, ans rips 3 cards from your opponent.
4 Chrome Mox
Mana accel that takes a cad from out hand, hellbent+mana=Good.
4 Badlands
Duh.
4 Bloodstained Mire
See badlands.
5 Swamp
We play more red than black, that's why we play more mountains.
7 Mountain
See swamp.

Lands: 20, Spells: 20, Crt: 20

The sideboard is pretty meta dependant, but propably cards like: pithing needle, pirostatic pillar, chalice of the voud (for 0), abal therapy, extirpate, engineerd plague, terminate, tormod's crypt, leyline of the void... depending on what you plan to expect.

Some cards still to be tested/not good for the deck:
sinkhole+wasteland: we play magus of the moon, so we already screw the manabase, maybe in a more tempo oriented deck, but than MotM would have to go. Also BB is hard to get.
Dark ritual: we don't play enough black, and it's a really bad topdeck...
Ashenmoor gouger: If we would play more tempo based (sinkhole+wasteland+ maybe hymn) this guy could work.
Hymn to tourach: BB is hard to get, but could work thouh.
Umezawa's jitte: maybe I'll kick some dragon's/guildmage's to fit this guy in.
Avatar of discard, only good when played with dark ritual and even then it's another bad topdeck...
Snuff out: could work in a more tempo based deck, but could become a dead draw (I prefer burn)
Pyrokinesis: bad topdeck because we don't get 6 mana fast and it's no good without a red card in hand and/or without a creature on the other side, since it can't go to the head
Firestorm: probably good early but once low on cards this guy is a terrible topdeck...
Fledgling Dragon: We dump a pretty large amount of cards directly via raiders, skeins and sometimes poppet and guildmage/augermage, so this guy could work, but pit dragon would be better i think

Some feedback would be cool...
Greetzzzzzzz