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Metaknight
01-24-2008, 02:53 PM
Hello every one, this is a deck I've been working on for quite some time, and would like to get all of your takes on it, and see if there’s anything I'm missing that you could help me with.

land//
3x bloodstained mire
3x windswept heath
3x scrubland
5x plains
3x swamps

Creatures//
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark confidant
4x Serra Avenger
4x Soltari Priest

spells//
4x hymn to tourach
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to plowshare
4x smother
4x mask of memory
3x Umezama's jitte
4x duress

sideboard//
4x Leyline of the void
3x Engineered plague
4x disenchant
4x pithing needle

Match ups: Unfortunately do to a lack of funds, this deck hasn't seen much tournament play, so most of my testing is on MWS, so the results will be skewed, but please bare with me.

Threshold (Ugr): this is a favorable match up, because they really can't deal priest, and him equipped with a jitte is usually gg. you have more than enough spot removal to deal with there threats (goose excluded, damn you shroud). Vial shines here, especially if they have counter/top (which if you haven’t noticed, destroys this deck). The white version is pretty much the same, except they can deal with priest.

Landstill(Uw): I only had testing against two color landstill, but based on that, I can tell you this is not a favorable match up. Me no like board sweepers, and Landstill has a lot of them. Really the only hope you have game 1 is duress and hymn them as much as possible and hope to hit all, or most of there removal. Game two you have needles to hit deed, factories, and EE, which helps a bunch, but you’re still the under dog here.

Goblins: this can go either way actually. I have had games where I out raced gobs, and some where I couldn’t hit a thing, but for the most part game one is in there favor, but not by much. Swords chiefs, and lackeys, smother drivers, you should be fine. Game 2 is more in your favor, seeing as how E. plague comes in with needle, and that should slow them down enough to get you there.

Combo(beltcher): I have only had testing against an older beltcher build (no wish or moxes, but still had EtW). Is in there favor, but if on the play, you can eek it out with enough disruption. On the other hand, if on the draw and they first or second turn either combo, your pretty much done for (unless Charbeltcher hates them).

Things I want to test:
Abolish: I really like this, and I would like to try and fit it main, but I’m having trouble finding a place. I like it so much mainly because it gets around counter/top pretty well.
Spectral Lynx: with Goyf running rampant, pro green is freaking amazing, but combined with regen. Is just sick.

Thanks everyone, I’ll be looking forward to what you have to say.

zulander
01-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Hey Metaknight! Unfortunately you've been beaten to the punch with this deck, there's a couple of threads with the same concepts but I think since they've been around for a long time they have adapted quite a bit. You can look here for the uwb version called fish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4405)or here for the straight b/w version called pikula. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2597)

Hope this helps!

Metaknight
01-24-2008, 05:04 PM
i really think you should take another look at the lists that you gave me and then take a better look at mine, those are control oriented, where as mine has control, but is far more aggro then Pikula and doesn't have blue like fish, and in fact consistently has beaten fish, but i don't have a lot of testing against pikula. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems, that you looked at the colors and the list and saw three cards in common and thought they were the same, they play vastly different. where pikula looks to slow down the opponent with LD and hand disruption, while gaining board position, Shadow memory plays far more aggressively, and don't even get me started on how this and fish are different.

revenge_inc
01-24-2008, 05:29 PM
Since this deck is aggro, why not Thoughtseize over Duress?
I don't think the life loss is a big deal

You play Aether Vial so I would up the creature count a bit:
-2 Mask of Memory
-1 Smother

+3 fast creature of your choice

EDIT: Horrible spelling of the word "creature" fixed-lol

raharu
01-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Actually, if this deck looks like anything, it looks like a much more developed version of Bunnies, a deck from CaNGs past that I've recently picked u and started to work on. How hare the mask of memories be treating you? I would think that Sword of Fire and Ice would be better, or maybe a Sword of FIre and Ice/ Light and Shadow split, but I haven't tested Mask of Memory yet, sI can't say for sure. Since you only run 8 creatures that effectively swing, why play MoR over the alternatives (Lynx, Grunt, ect.)? I would sugest running something like this for a creaturebase:

Creatures: 17
Mother of Runes x4
Spectral Lynx x4
Dark Confidant x3
Serra Avenger x3
Phyrexian Negator x3

It looks/ feels more agressive and more agro then the base you currently have, and Ngator is a beast that slaps pretty much everything around and makes nice with Mother of Runes.

I've always had a hard time fitting AEther Vial into my lists, so I woldn't be able to provide you with a list that looks like this one, but there are some interesting ideas in it. For instance, the dscard package:

Thoughtseize x4
Cabal therapy x4
Extirpate x4
Hymn to Tourach/ Gerard's Verdict x4

The broad nature of the discard suite let me have a good number of decent MU's, and it let me taper off my removal suite to just 4x Swords to plowshares and 2x Sword of Fire and Ice. On that note, the 2/2 SoFI/SoLI split let me recur threats and keep card advantage (depending on what I drew, but I also ran 2x Enlightened tutor, so I pretty much ran 4 of each. Maybe with 4 AEther Vials in your deck this is a feaseable inclusion?). That's about all that I can contribute right now, but I'll follow this threadas it progresses and chime in where I can.

Metaknight
01-24-2008, 06:55 PM
@revenge inc: really the only reason to run thoughtseize over duress is because it can hit creatures, but with 8 main board creature removal i never really have a problem with creatures (outside goose), so i don't see the point in running it. if i were to add any more hand disruption, i would have to say i'd add Cabal Therapy.

@raharu: I had both swords of fire/ice and Light/shadow, and found them to be to mana intensive. Mask allows you to play and equip the turnyou would be playing a sword ( or play a turn earlier and equip the next turn and have mana open for other stuff), and also digs deeper. the discard can help get rid of unnecessary land or what not late game, and so far i haven't looked back. Priest or angel with a mask is drawing you an average of an extra like 8-10 cards a game, and pitching things that are dead or unneeded.

Also i like the creature base you suggested, but the one thing i don't like is the lose of priest. DON'T cut this guy short. Priest+jitte=gg in most cases. I have won so many games on his back, its not even funny. And noe that i think of it, what would i cut for the extra slot? I'm thinking -1 smother, but i'm not sure.

I think i'll go with this

creatures (17):
3x mother of runes
3x spectral lynx
3x Serra Avenger
4x Dark confidant
3x soltari Priest
2x negator

that way, i still have gatory goodness, but then i also have priest and lynx which i eally enjoy.

raharu
01-24-2008, 08:38 PM
In all honesty, I was thinking something more like this for the Equipment:

Equipment/ tutor: 7
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Mask of Memory
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (because it's almost solely usedfor threat recursion)

I would really sugest tapering off the removal and adding in more disruption (most likely in the form of Cabal Therapy) and swaping Thoughtseize fo Duress. Also, I would sugest findng some room for 2/3x Sensei's Divining Top. The ability to not kill yourself in long wars of attrition is a valuable resource.

f|i[p]
01-24-2008, 11:16 PM
Greetings,

I agree that this is somewhat similar to bunnies in its own way.

17 creatures with 7 equipment is too much, you'll end up seeing equipment more often than you'd like. maybe a 3/2 split between jitte and mask of memory would be better or vice versa.

Duress can be replaced with cabal therapies as you will always have creatures to sacrifice if you choose to have jotun grunts and dark confidants.

maybe you can go 19 creatures or even more
As for negator, I think its a metagame choice, he always won me games, and also lost me some. Its a matter of risk.

3x mother of runes
3x spectral lynx
2x Serra Avenger --- you dont want to see too much early game
4x Dark confidant
3x soltari Priest
2x negator
2x jotun grunts

Mask of memory can feed grunts as well.
There are actually alot of creatures to choose from,

You can also get oonas prowler, hypnotic specter, stone cloaker for combat tricks or maybe saving a creature. .

Creatures with regen are also good choices as I see alot of decks packing pernicious deed as removal nowadays.

You can even up mother of runes to 4 and take off soltari priest completely and replace them ,. Although it would go against your decks name which would be sad.

This creature base would at least make your creatures worthy threats, its either they are quite big, or they have evasion which is great.

Im not sure about the creature to vial ratio, but I think 4 is too much and maybe even not needed. You can also get explosive starts if you replace them with chrome mox. But its your choice.

Your land base could use 8 fetches. When I ran bunnies long ago, I never had land problems with 8 fetches in the main.

Your sideboard can also consist of

3 plagues
4 extirpates would be more versatile against other decks as well.
4 thought seize or cabal therapy for combo and control
vindicates or disenchants( although I have always been drawn to vindicate because of the added land/creature removal)
Perish for green removal, worship,
Rule of law.

So many choices now. But you should really be concerned by having big evasive creatures that are real threats, as well as the control and combo match up.

As for SoLS and SoFI, they are good but they are very mana intensive and does not suit the decks play style and curve.

xycsoscyx
01-25-2008, 12:24 AM
They're not the greatest in terms of power/toughness to CC ratio, but have you considered Maralen (from Morningtide) and Aven Mindcensor? By itself, Mindcensor already adds disruption against decks that use fetchlands (which most do in Legacy), but adding Maralen sets up a pretty strong pseudo-lock which can buy your guys the time you need to swing in.

Maralen - 1BB
Legendary Creature
Players can't draw cards
During each players upkeep, they search their library for a card, put it into their hand, shuffle their library, then lose 3 life.

Without Mindcensor, they already can't draw cards (which is also a huge disruption against many decks), but along with it, they can only tutor the top 4 cards of their library. This should give you another aspect of disruption that should give you time to swing in for the win (and lets you tutor for answers each turn yourself).

Metaknight
01-25-2008, 12:45 AM
@raharu: I don't really like Tutor in the deck, because it slows it down, and the swords aren't that great. SoFI gains me draw, and a bit of creature removal. MoM draws more, and jitte is better for removal, granted they aren't in one package, thats not that big of a deal.

@f|i[p]: I do agree with you that i need to drop the equipment count, but i think a 3/3 split would be better. I know, it's only cutting one slot, but i think it will be enough. I don't agree with replacing duress with Therapy, or even thoughtseize (this is were i would like to say that thoughtseize isn't always better than duress, this is one of those cases). I'm not totally sold on your creature base either. Dropping the Angel count to 2 isn't a good idea, remember that i run vial, so they can be played a turn sooner. The grunts might be ok. i like getting to reuse cards. Please trust me when i say there needs to be 4 vials. The SB is totally a meta call, but one card i want to bring to everyones attention, is Abolish. Yeah its the shit. the fact that it gets around daze, and counter/top is freakin amazing.

f|i[p]
01-25-2008, 04:41 AM
Well,

everything is your decision, but therapies would be good if you had a little more creatures. But since you have less, duress would be good as well..But I still think thoughtseize is way better than duress in anycase, for goblins or thresh. It gets to save you one creature removal that you can use on another important creature. But its still your call, if the lifeloss is a pain, then duress is the way to go.


I dont think maralen belongs here, it does however disrupt them and is a lightning bolt against them, it means they would get any card they want, which means an answer to anything you might have. Aven and maralen is a combo which is too slow, its not even worth it.

raharu
01-25-2008, 04:01 PM
Are you sure that a 4/2 Split on the equipment wouldn't be better? Mask Digs quite a bit, and drawing a second 'Jitte sucks. After I looked at your list one more time, I see why you don't need Thoughtseize. In short: you run 8 removal. With that much removal, you don't need to waste disruption picking creatures from thier hand. You would rather see them invest mana in them and then whack it from the board, stifling thier development while you dump creatures onto the board through Vial. Sometimes removal is dead (see TES), in which case I would sugest Extirpate/ Cabal Therapy in the board though, just for those matches. As for Abolish, you should really run Vindicate, and run it hard. Really, I would sugest cutting some number of Smother and some more of something else for about 3 in the main deck and another in the board. They're just that good.

Metaknight
01-26-2008, 02:53 AM
I think you're right about the 4/2 split in the equipment. and also about the therapies in the board. i think the boards going to look a little more like thins

-4 leyline of the void
-3 E. Plague

+4 cabal therapy
+3 extirpate

Cavius The Great
01-26-2008, 11:29 AM
Cabal Pit is really good with mask of memory. You're playing black so I figured, why not. :wink:

Tacosnape
01-26-2008, 01:35 PM
You know what Cabal Pit is good in? Not Magic.

I think the swamp count in this deck's high already, actually. I'd be more tempted to look at a 6/2 configuration. You've got a lot of double white in your threat base you need to be able to consistently have access to on turn two.

raharu
01-26-2008, 01:47 PM
Yeah, Cabal Pit is just a really bad, land-based, creatures only Shock, and Shock doesn't cut it anymore. If you want P/T based combat tricks, why not use Darkblast?

@ Taco:

4x Aether Vial
I, personally, would rather have black for Duress, Hymn, and Smother in the early game. Turn one AEther Vial isn't always going to be an option, but I would rather eat a hole in combo's hand or answer a runaway Lackey than have WW for a creaature that can't block or a threat that isn't going to get hardcasted until turn 4. a 5/3 B/W split, in my mind, would be better.

Metaknight
01-26-2008, 03:31 PM
I think we all agree that cabal pit is terrible, so thats out, but taco, raharu is right, that black is more important than white in the early game, because although first turn vial may not be an option, but most of the time it is, i would much rather be striping their hand of threats then laying my own.

Cavius The Great
01-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Yeah, Cabal Pit is just a really bad, land-based, creatures only Shock, and Shock doesn't cut it anymore. If you want P/T based combat tricks, why not use Darkblast?

@ Taco:

I, personally, would rather have black for Duress, Hymn, and Smother in the early game. Turn one AEther Vial isn't always going to be an option, but I would rather eat a hole in combo's hand or answer a runaway Lackey than have WW for a creaature that can't block or a threat that isn't going to get hardcasted until turn 4. a 5/3 B/W split, in my mind, would be better.

Becuase Darkblast only gives creatures -1/-1? And Shock can be countered?

Let's see, Cabal Pit kills Meddling Mage, Psychatog, Goblin Piledrivers, Goblin Ringleaders, Gaddock Teeg, Black Knight, Silver Knight, White Knight, Wild Mongrel, half the format's creatures, and everything with a toughness of 1 that's not untargetable. It's also an uncounterable source of creature destruction. I'm pretty sure Cabal Pit is a decent card.

Media314r8
01-27-2008, 05:59 PM
If you must insist on running tutor/toolbox equipment, why not run steelshaper's gift instead of E tutor? (aside from obvious SB toolboxes) Card nuetrality > card disadvantage if the equip is all you're using it for.

Metaknight
01-28-2008, 01:00 AM
@Cavius The Great: there are still a couple things wrong with cabal pit, i am required to have threshold to activate it, which i tend to get only in the late game, and also, all the the aforementioned creatures are easily dealt with, with my current removal package.

@Media314r8: I'm not running tutor/toolbox equipment, i'm running 4 Mask of Memory, and 2 Jitte. How was that not clear in the above posts?

Cavius The Great
01-28-2008, 11:33 AM
@Cavius The Great: there are still a couple things wrong with cabal pit, i am required to have threshold to activate it, which i tend to get only in the late game, and also, all the the aforementioned creatures are easily dealt with, with my current removal package.

@Media314r8: I'm not running tutor/toolbox equipment, i'm running 4 Mask of Memory, and 2 Jitte. How was that not clear in the above posts?

I guess I just mentioned Cabal Pit becuase of Mask of Memory. Mask of memory makes it seem fairly easy to achieve threshold.

Metaknight
01-28-2008, 04:27 PM
you're right, they would, if that were the complete and only focus of the deck. but the thing is, its not (don't let the name fool you, i thought it sounded cool). then again, if i do get an early game mask on a priest, then yes i would have threshold rather quickly, but when playing the deck, i don't want to have to play around getting threshold so i can use the pits, it's one of the biggest mistakes i see when someones playing thresh, they try so hard to get thresh, instead of going about fixing their hand and just letting it happen. If that happens with a deck that is designed to obtain threshold, what do yo think will happen if you try and put it in here?