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Phantom
01-29-2008, 01:13 PM
Cujrrent List:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [10E] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Mobilization
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Pithing Needle


Gargangel Stompy (W Chalice Aggro)
CaNGD Submission by The Phantom (aka Billy Zane)

Table of Contents



1.0 Introduction and Backround
2.0 The List

2.1 The Cards
2.2 The Sideboard
2.3 Cards Previously Tested
2.4 Other Cards Considered
3.0 Playing the Deck
4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses
5.0 The Matchups
6.0 Conclusion, Thanks and Lingering Questions



1.0 Intro

So over my Legacy career I've taken a shot at Chalice aggro in every color imaginable. I helped Eldariel (the Godfather) with the original blue Faerie Stompy, helped Taco create and develop the red spinoff Dragon Stompy, and have tooled around with both black and green on the side (which have both received some solid upgrades lately). For some reason, I never really took a shot at white. Why? I'm not really sure except to say that maybe I thought Angel Stompy (and D+T maybe) was the best there was.

Anyway, one day at work it hit me that:

A) Moat is an incredible card. It hits every archetype. Every damn one. And with a certain :1::g: creature popping up everywhere, it may have never been stronger.

B) White may not have the fatties that other colors do (although Angel is all she ever was in a Tomb/City/Mox shell) but it does have some solid creatures that double as disruption such as Glowrider and Aven Mindcensor.

C) White has gotten some solid additions lately to the :2::w: casting cost club in the form of Mirror Entity, Stonecloaker, and the oh so sexy Oblivion Ring.

With all that in mind I threw together a list and got to testing.



2.0 The List




Here she is:


// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
8 [10E] Plains (4)
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [LRW] Mirror Entity
4 [LE] Glowrider

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [LG] Moat
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 3 [NE] Parallax Wave
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 0 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 0 Powder Keg

(This is the list I tested for the results below. I'm going to test -1 Mirror, -2 Stonecloaker, +3 Decree of Justice)



[B]2.1 The Cards





1) Moat - MVP. House. Fantastic. Wrecks Thresh. Wrecks Goblins. Can wreck Storm Combo (and I'm assuming it's very good vs. Ichy and Breakfast). Hurts Dragon Stompy. Annoys Landstill. It limits our options a bit as far a creatures go, but I don't think we should over think that process and talk ourselves out of running powerful cards simply because they are synergistic (I'm running 12 flyers and 8 non right now and that has been ok). Also, it's a nice middle finger to Tarmogoyf.

2) Oblivion Ring - Man. I wish I could run this in other Stompy variants now. Gets rid of HUGE problems for us like Deed, Tombstalker, Enforcer, Needle and BELCHER.

3) Creatures -


- Exalted Angel -> The only auto include here really. He's just nuts and laughs at a single Goyf (for only 4-5 mana more!). I wish i could run 12.
- Aven Mindcensor -> Surprisingly Solid. Can win you random matches by shutting off fetches/tutors but has mostly just been a Flash flyer which is usually enough.
- Glowrider -> Better than expected. Smacks Storm Combo and is more effective in other matchups than I would have thought.
- Stonecloaker -> A tad disappointing, but fits pretty well here. I'd like to cut down to two or three since they suck without other creatures alive. I like the random yard hate though.
- Mirror Entity -> Bad synergy with Moat, but just too nuts to not run. Makes all those disruptive beaters BEAT.

(Note: Sadly white suffers from a lack of fatties in the :2::w:-:4::w: range. The deck will have to rely on disruption, equipment, and Moat rather than the speed of other Stompy shells)


4) Flagstones of Trokair - Blood Moon and B2B can't outweigh the synergy these have with Armageddon out of the board.?

5) Equipment - Some of the creatures are smallish, so I play a 3/3 SoFI/Jitte split.

6) Chalice and Trinisphere - I run Chalice main and Trini sided as Moat is eating Trini's spot and Glowrider gives us some storm combo hate maindeck already.


[B]2.2 Sideboard Choices



4 [U]Armageddon - The deck does struggle against control. Hopefully this helps.
3 Parallax Wave - Helps against agrro and can save your guys from removal for a few turns. Also, if I remember correctly now it acts as a one sided Wrath with Oblivion Ring.
4 Tormod's Crypt - Better than Morningtide, which I think is our only other option.
4 Trinisphere - Further Storm Combo hate, which should seal the match.
0 Suppression Field - I was considering this, but I don't know where it really is amazing.
0 Powder Keg- Multipurpose, but does it deserve a spot?

- The board is still shaky and untested at this point.


2.3 Cards Previously Tested



- Hokori, Dust Drinker -> Tried him for a bit, but it seemed that the decks I wanted him to hurt had plenty of cheap answers.



2.4 Other Cards Considered



- Windborn Muse -> Could be useful against Aggro or EtW. Nice synergy with Hokori. Too small for the CC is what I'm thinking though.
- Karmic Guide -> Briefly considered him for the card advantage, but I doubt it.
- Gathan Raiders -> Bad synergy with Moat and this deck doesn't get Hellbent as quickly as DS.
- Decree of Justice -> I want to test this next. Not sure in what spot though.
- Voidstone Gargoyle -> Disruptive Flyer, but a tad weak.



3.0 Playing the Deck

Chalice, Glowrider, and Mindcensor are always solid early game plays. The midgame usually involves Moats, Angels, and or equipment. If you play Moat keep laying out ground creatures (if you don't have flyers) as some decks play answers, and Oblivion Ring on your own Moat can allow for a nice alpha strike.




4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses


Clearly I believe the deck to be very strong or I would not have posted it. I'm not sure it's 100% there yet, but here are some of the strengths and weaknesses I've encountered:

Strengths

- Disruptive beaters. Creatures that both disrupt and carry equipment are always great in these decks (see: Magus of the Moon).

- Solid disruption. Moat and Chalice main. Good options for the side.

- Versatile control. Oblivion Ring hits so many of our problems.

- Angel. Still one of the best beaters in the game.

Weaknesses

- Sweepers. We drop down a lot of permanents at once, so if someone sweeps the board through O Ring, the card advantage can be difficult to recover from.

- Artifact and Enchantment hate. We run the usual Mox/Jitte/Sword/Chalice suite that Chalice Aggro is known for, but we also run Moat and Ring which can be hit by the same hate often.

- Not as lightning fast as other Stompy decks. We trade in some speed for some more disruption. This is a mixed blessing as we lose some games where we once had the advantage. We also have 12 creatures that come into play with 1 toughness and the other 8 come into play with 2.





5.0 The Matchups


(A quick word about testing. I never claim my testing is 100%, simply that it happened and that my partner and I attempted to be as fair as I could. Feel free to question the numbers or perform your own.)

1) Threshold
How it goes: Played a ton of games in this matchup against several varieties (both CounterTop and not) so I'm sure that this matchup is very favorable. They can't let Chalice hit. The can't let a creature get equipment on it. Glowrider hurts them. Angel is a huge problem as it completely negates a Goyf. Moat is all but game over if it lands preboard.

Tips: Don't sweat Daze. Save Moat for after they've burnt all their counters. I tend to play in roughly this hierarchy: Chalice, Glowrider, Mindcensor, Angel, Mirror Entity, Moat, with equipment, Ring, and Stonecloaker in reserve if needed.

Board: I'm actually not sure yet. Trini and Wave in for equipment maybe?

vs W thresh w/ top
on the draw
1-0 Moat + Chalice
2-0 Angel > 2 Goyfs. Ring > Enforcer
3-0 Moat + Chalice + Angel
4-0 Moat + Chalice + Angel
5-0 Chalice + Mindcensor + Jitte

on the play
6-0 Moat > Goose x 3
7-0 Chalice @1 and 2 + Stonecloaker w/ Jitte
7-1 StP + Daze + Force + Goyf
8-1 Chalice + Miror Entity w/ Sword (bringing down Enforcers)
9-1 Chalice @1 + Mirror Entity + Angel + Sword

2) Combo
How it goes: Surprisingly well, against Belcher at least, considering Trini is in the board. Chalice is fantastic as always. Glowrider can come down quick and stall. Ring hits Belcher. Moat stops Warrens. Mindcensor stops tutors.

Tips: Disrupt as much as possible, then win as soon as possible.

Board: Trini (or Crypt) in for Jitte and a Sword.

vs Belcher
on the draw
0-1 Belched turn 3
1-1 Oblivion Ring > Slow Belch (thanks to Glow)
2-1 Moat > Warrens
2-2 Belched > Moat
3-2 Belch hits a land. Ring hits belcher.

on the play
4-2 Chalice @ 1 and 2
5-2 Chalice @ 1 and 2
6-2 Ring x 2 on Mox and Belch + Chalice and Glowrider
7-2 Chalice + Glow + Jitte
7-3 EtW > No Moat

3) Landstill
How it goes: Bleh. The usual Stompy bad matchup, only we don't have a lucky Blood Moon to bail us out.

Tips: Land Moat and protect it with your mind. Be careful of Deed if possible, Ring it if not. Flash creatures are a great response to Standstill. Hopefully Geddon and Decree will help here.

Board: Geddon for Equipment.

vs 4c Landstill
on the draw
0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
0-5

on the play
1-5 Flash > Still
1-6
1-7
2-7
3-7

4) Dragon Stompy
How it goes: Yowza. 50/50 right down the middle. This is the only place where Plains are better than Flagstaffs.

Tips: Win the die roll. Win the Jitte battle. Play a Moat.

Board: Chalice out for Wave. Not sure if Geddon should come in or not.

vs DS
on the draw
0-1 Too fast
1-1 Quick Moat
1-2 Quick Dragon + equip
1-3 One Plains + Moon = no moat
1-4 Slog > Moat

on the play
2-4 Moat + Angel + Sword
3-4 Ring + Angel
3-5 Sulfur x 3
4-5 Glow w/ 2x Sword
5-5 Ring on the Slog. Glow w/ Jitte

5) Goblins
How it goes: 50/50 pre against Rg. Not too bad as that is the worst build for us.

Tips: Moat, Moat, Moat. The Jitte and Angel. Save Ring for Vial or SCG usually.

Board: Wave in for Chalice on the draw, Glowrider on the play?

vs RG Gobs
on the draw
0-1 Lackey > Slow hand
1-1 Moat
2-1 Moat + SoFI
2-2 Vial > no Moat
3-2 Angel w/ Jitte > Vial x 2

on the play
3-3 SGC > Moat + no flyers
4-3 Angel + Moat
4-4 No Moat, Angel, Jitte = bad
4-5 Mull into Oblivion (not Ring)
5-5 Moat + Ring on both SGCs

6) Black Aggro
How it goes: Poorly if they are splashing green. Discard + LD + mainboard Seals are bad news.

Tips: Consider Sacred ground if Eva runs rampant in your meta. Moat the ground creatures and Ring Tombstalker.

Board: Wave should be a pretty big help here. In for equipment.

vs. Eva Green
on the draw
0-1 TS
0-2 Sinkhole x 3
0-3 Snuff Out
0-4 Hymn x2 + Sink
0-5

on the play
0-6
1-6 Manascrew
2-6 Moat + Angel
2-7
2-8






Thanks for reading and hopefully helping out!

Tacosnape
01-29-2008, 01:26 PM
I like. Quad maindeck Moat is hot stuff. How strong is Armageddon?

Also, can I rename your deck to Gargamel Stompy? Because that's what I read it as the first time.

Maveric78f
01-29-2008, 01:46 PM
That's fun because I tested today an homebrew White Stompy deck. However my goal was to go nuts against threshold (which you seem to do too) by preventing any kind of cantriping with glowrider/thorn/chalice.

I'm not that sure that moat is so great in this deck, when you could run a lot of very strong tool creatures. My testings are poor up to now, since I spent only 2 hours on it, but when you say that W creatures were not stompy fit, I really do not agree.

// Lands
11 [A] Plains (2)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [LOR] Mirror Entity
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [PLC] Voidstone Gargoyle

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [LOR] Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 3 [A] Armageddon
SB: 2 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn = maybe moats
SB: 2 [DK] Tivadar's Crusade = maybe moats
SB: 4 [4E] Disenchant

etrigan
01-29-2008, 03:46 PM
Did you test against UGr Thresh? Particularly against lists with Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice? Seems like bad news, as all your guys with the exception of unmorphed Angel can be easily burnt out.

Tacosnape
01-29-2008, 03:56 PM
Chalice for 1 >> Lightning Bolt.
Chalice for 2 >> Fire // Ice.
Stonecloaker >> Removal.

...and if all that fails, game 1, Moat >> UGR Threshold. This is a large part of why I think Sea Drake's a better third creature in Threshold than Werebear, in addition to being Blue to pitch to Force and working well with Counterbalance.

That said, this deck does have some low toughness problems, it seems like. Fortunately its high evasion helps to compensate.

Eldariel
01-29-2008, 04:12 PM
I think the manabase is risky. You run two very important spells with WW costs and only 14 white sources. I'd personally go with at least 18, and even Angel Stompy, known to bend those rules, includes at the very least 16 white sources. Dragon Stompy gets away with 14 thanks to Seething Song AND SSG fixing the manabase further. Outside that, I like the idea - to be frank, the one white card I've so often wanted in Faerie Stompy is Moat. That's truly where the gold lies for a Stompy-deck - one card that nullifies opposing strategies while not as much as touching yours.

I also dislike Stonecloakers for the outlined reasons; they can't be played alone, which seems to be a huge hurdle. Too bad Skirmisher is uncastable here - it'd be a perfect creature for the deck. Soltari Champion is a decent option, but seeing that you don't usually have too many creatures to pump and accounting for the fact that Shadow doesn't work with Moat, it's probably less-than-optimal.

Good job - I don't have much to add at the moment, the card choices seem pretty solid and I really have no idea how to make the manabase more consistent outside the obvious '-4 City, +4 Plains'.

Phantom
01-29-2008, 04:48 PM
All good stuff so far and thanks for the input. Some quick answers:


I like. Quad maindeck Moat is hot stuff. How strong is Armageddon?

Also, can I rename your deck to Gargamel Stompy? Because that's what I read it as the first time.

Quad Moat is nuts. Haven't tested geddon yet but postboard testing starts tonight (as does Decree testing). I'll let you know. Can you think of something better in white to fight Landstill? Suppression Field maybe?

Ummm, I'm not attached to the name, but Gargamel? Fuck that bitch. He wasn't even a wizard. I think he just liked mixing things.

@Mav: Nice list. I'm not clear on how you run so much :w::w: though. I'm only running 1 card that requires double white to be played because I often don't hit that till midgame. Thorn also seems to hit many less decks than Moat. I would suggest Hokori, Dust Drinker and Windborn Muse for you as you seem to have a mana tie up thing going.


Did you test against UGr Thresh? Particularly against lists with Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice? Seems like bad news, as all your guys with the exception of unmorphed Angel can be easily burnt out.

I always try to test against the toughest build of a deck and I figured White would be more difficult. Your points are valid, but as Taco said, Moat > no flyers not to mention SoFI attached to anything is trouble for them.

I did already address the toughness problem and am hoping Decree will help that (although it leaves us still venerable to Clasm I guess).


I think the manabase is risky. You run two very important spells with WW costs and only 14 white sources. I'd personally go with at least 18, and even Angel Stompy, known to bend those rules, includes at the very least 16 white sources. Dragon Stompy gets away with 14 thanks to Seething Song AND SSG fixing the manabase further. Outside that, I like the idea - to be frank, the one white card I've so often wanted in Faerie Stompy is Moat. That's truly where the gold lies for a Stompy-deck - one card that nullifies opposing strategies while not as much as touching yours.

Make no mistake, the manabase IS risky (see Eva Green raping me), but the deck can win on only :w: (Angels are Gray ogres and Moats go to Moxen). Usually :w::w: comes online early or midgame, and we usually aren't in a desperate hurry to drop Moat or flip Angel. I'd love to be able to guarantee WW, but I think cutting 2 mana lands is out of the question. The slower Glowrider, Mindcensor, and Chalice hit the board the less teeth they have.



I also dislike Stonecloakers for the outlined reasons; they can't be played alone, which seems to be a huge hurdle. Too bad Skirmisher is uncastable here - it'd be a perfect creature for the deck. Soltari Champion is a decent option, but seeing that you don't usually have too many creatures to pump and accounting for the fact that Shadow doesn't work with Moat, it's probably less-than-optimal.

Stonecloakers have been a mixed blessing. If i can untap with a creature in play, they give us removal hate which is pretty amazing. Also, the yard hate is unexpected and useful. I think they belong here, but not as a 4-of. That's why I'm cutting 2 for Decrees. I like the fact that Decrees have psuedo Flash and Split Second, while still being able to function under moat if it is down (albeit for 4 :w::w:).

Hightower
01-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Really cool deck =)

I was thinking if Morningtide added anything to your version, and maybe you could consider that new Giant-guy:


Stonehwer Giant - WW3

Creature - Giant Warrior

Rare

Vigilance

1{W}, {T}: Search your library for an Equipment card and put it into play. Attach it to a creature you control. Then shuffle your library.

4/4

He could be the Arc-Slogger of the deck, a really strong mid-game drop. I'm aware that he can't fly and white doesn't pack Seething Songs to play him turn1, but he's still decent imo.

Regards

Phantom
01-29-2008, 05:45 PM
I considered that guy, and while he has a crazy high ceiling, his basement is just too low. In other words, he is dead too often. He is dead with Moat down. He is dead if we don't have :w::w:. He is dead if we only have :2::w::w:. He costs five and doesn't immediatly outclass Goyf. He won't be attacking with a piece of hardware until two full turns after I drop him, which already won't be early thanks to his cost.

Basically, the rule for Tomb/City/Mox decks used to be no double mana casting costs. it has become no double mana cost cards unless they are just too good not to run. I don't think the Giant falls into that category.

Sanguine Voyeur
01-29-2008, 05:55 PM
I believe the intent is to attack and activate it on the same turn, making it effectively a 8/6 Pro-blue/red Ophidian.

That may not outweigh the benefits though. This deck is different from Dragon Stompy, including how it handles its mana.

f|i[p]
01-29-2008, 06:08 PM
Interesting deck, I have been longing to see a white variant of chalice aggro but never really had the time to work on it.

It seems that you don't have a real threat aside from angel. In order for them to be a threat, you'd have to rely on equipment or pumping them via mirror entity.

If ever you don't get a moat in play, does thresh or goblins even bother to block your creatures?

Just a thought...
Although it doesnt work with moat around and it seems that moat is your MVP,I'll just ask anyway.

I was wondering if you have ever tried this type of deck with soldiers, Preeminent Captain along with other soldiers? It allows you to cheat the mana of other soldiers just like lackey. Also championing a creature might even help you with regards to mass removal, Just like stonecloakers do, although they go back straight to play which could be better. Removing a creature in response to your casting it wont usually happen as, you may have chalices,glowriders, trinispheres or such.

Just throwing out ideas out there.

Kronicler
01-29-2008, 07:55 PM
Nice deck, Phantom. My only suggestion is to test against UGR Tempo Thresh, a build that a lot of people write off. It seems like wastelanding your 2 mana lands and F/Iing your creatures could be incredible strong against you. I know that Chalice > Thresh and Moat > Thresh, but you only have 4 chalice which can often be taken care of with force and daze, and wasteland on your 2 mana lands could prevent you from getting moat into play before you are dead / at low enough life to be burnt out. And then of course they bringin 4 Grip in place of their Stifles and maybe pyrcoclasm for all your small-assed creatures and it turns into a whole new ball game.

Kronicler

Pinder
01-29-2008, 09:10 PM
Ummm, I'm not attached to the name, but Gargamel? Fuck that bitch. He wasn't even a wizard. I think he just liked mixing things.


Because of the Moats and the emphasis placed on your own flying creatures, I suggest Monty Python's Flying Circus, or just 'Flying Circus' for short.

That is all.

p.s. Nice deck :smile:

strom
01-30-2008, 01:33 AM
Have you tried Skyhunter Skirmisher? I know that it is a bit hard to cast, but it is pretty nuts combined with your equipment and especially with Miror Entity.

Moat is indeed a very strong card. But you dont want to see more than one of them. I suggest playing a 2/2 split between Moat and Wave. Wave gets rid of alle the pesky things Moat cant handle, especially opposing flyers and utility creatures like Confidant.

gosumog
01-30-2008, 06:38 AM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8480

didnt i just make this deck -_-

i tested wave and moat, its good with mangara =)

Mooglar
01-30-2008, 07:07 AM
A couple of questions, why use armageddon if you dont have crucibles aside from having moxes. Wouldnt catacalysm be better leaving you with a flyer, a chalice and a moat with 2 lands from flagstones.

Catacalysm also rapes thresh and goblins since goblins get to sit there with 1 warchief after and thresh gets 1 goyf >_>, aside that if u leave trini after cata its pretty devastating.

Also have you considered loxodon gatekeeper hes pretty good =)

my friend just made this deck like 2 days ago and he is gosumog >_> above but you seem to have all the matchups ^^

i rly dont like mirror entity here he seems really bad

Try Hokori, Gatekeeper or something like jotun grunt or another flyer

Maveric78f
01-30-2008, 07:26 AM
Once more, I'm not sure Moat is the card you want in monoW stompy. The flying creatures are too rare and too fragile (except for angel).

For the double strike issue, I prefer from far Kinsbaile Cavalier which is high-level combo with Mirror Entity and equipements. They are not flying I know, but with a no-moat list it would be awesome.

For information, the nice white knights suitable for a stompy deck are:
- Mirror Entity
- Kinsbaile Cavalier
- Defender of Law
- Skyhunter Cub
- Springjack Knight
- Knight of Sursi
- Avian Changeling

They are pretty bad all of them (except for the 2 first). If we could afford WW cost more consistently, there would be nice additions though:
- Knight of Meadowgrain
- Knight of the Holy Nimbus
- Leonin Skyhunter
- Silver Knight
- White Knight

That's really a pity.

Mooglar
01-30-2008, 07:38 AM
i looked up some flyers

hunted lamasu looks good with moat on the board

Serra avenger looks yummy

serra angel is meh

galepowder mage looks ok too >_>

Maveric78f
01-30-2008, 08:09 AM
@Mav: Nice list. I'm not clear on how you run so much :w::w: though. I'm only running 1 card that requires double white to be played because I often don't hit that till midgame.

I play only 7 spells taht require absolutely WW. The avenger is quite bad since I've removed the equipments and I'm thinking about replaciing it. However the Voidstone Gargoyle is really strong though and the doubleW is not that much problem since it cannot be played in first turns anyway.

Your list is packing 4*Moat as only WW absolute requirement. Moat prevents you from playing a lot from the best possible creatures.

Tacosnape
01-30-2008, 01:01 PM
Moat also prevents three quarters of the decks in Legacy from getting any use out of their creatures, either.

I freely admit I don't quite follow the logic of Mirror Entity, however.

@Phantom: Have you tested Burrenton Bombardier at all in this deck? He flies and I love the idea of Reinforce, though I wonder if his body's too small to get the job done.

EDIT: Also, Stonehewer Giant might be insane in this shell aside from Moat. Swing, activate, attach SOFI or Jitte, win.

Phantom
01-30-2008, 06:17 PM
Yeah, let me get this out of the way:

THE DECK DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT MOAT

If you want to do more testing and prove me wrong feel free, but I'd prefer not to talk about non moat builds here since I HAVE done the testing and found the card too broken not to run. I have also found the non moat builds to be vastly inferior to the other Stompys.

@Skyhunter Skirmisher: He's actually on my list to test in the Mirror Entity slot. I just hate his casting cost. He would make me up the plains slot to at least 12 which means making cuts. Blah. I would KILL to have this guy cost :2::w: and be a 1/2.

@ Mirror Entity: My thinking was that if I was going to run a ground creature it had to do something with Moat out. Entity does this by pumping small flyers into 5/5's. He's also swung in for a ton and taken down Goyfs (the only critter in my flock that can say that). I am open to replacing him and Stonecloaker as they are my most up and down bodies. Some have already been replaced with Decrees (more on this at a later date)

@ Multiple Moats: I ALWAYS want to see multiples. Well, that is to say, I'd rather see all 4 than 0 in most matches, and they could always counter or kill one. Trust me. I'd probably run more if they let me.

@ Burrenton Bombardier: I'm not seeing the beauty. Reinforce seems worse than what Stonecloaker does (albeit less restrictive) and it doesn't get my guys out of bolt range. He is versatile though. I'll give him a look.

Edit: And i love the idea of the Hunted Guy with Moat, but i think I would need one more way to abuse it for it to be worth the risk.

Tacosnape
01-30-2008, 07:55 PM
I definitely agree that without four Moat, this deck isn't worth playing and is inferior to the other Chalice Aggro decks. Quad maindeck Moats is a very assertive choice and a powerful one, especially with Chalice having the potential to be set to any amount to stop a removal spell. For this reason, I think there should be -some- creatures that aren't shut down by Chalice for 3, as this can be a very strong play against decks that rely on Deed, Vindicate, or Krosan Grip to get rid of Moat. Which would be most of them.

Much like Survival, however, the deck needs to be prepared to function without a Moat, which is why Hunted Lammasu probably isn't a wonderful idea, despite it being a powerhouse.

I've been playing around with this deck out of fascination with the archetype and have a few observations.

1. Oblivion Ring. Oh my god, that card is so completely insane in this deck. Seriously. Fantastic choice. 4 Ring + 4 Moat = core.
2. I keep getting in matches where I don't need Chalice but want Swords to Plowshares. Is STP an option for the board?
3. The deck needs another flyer in place of Mirror Entity. Entity has sucked hardcore, as all my mana's been generally tied up in paying equip costs or playing other spells. Additionally, Mirror Entity makes Engineered Plague a power play against this deck, as a Plague on Bird, Wizard, Cleric, or Human takes out eight threats in the deck.

...Also, damn you for presenting the problem of possibly needing 4 Moats in my collection.

Phantom
01-30-2008, 08:09 PM
Much like Survival, however, the deck needs to be prepared to function without a Moat, which is why Hunted Lammasu probably isn't a wonderful idea, despite it being a powerhouse.

Yeah. Ring makes him doable without Moat, but I would need 4 more things that negate his drawback before I run him.


I've been playing around with this deck out of fascination with the archetype and have a few observations.

1. Oblivion Ring. Oh my god, that card is so completely insane in this deck. Seriously. Fantastic choice. 4 Ring + 4 Moat = core.
2. I keep getting in matches where I don't need Chalice but want Swords to Plowshares. Is STP an option for the board?
3. The deck needs another flyer in place of Mirror Entity. Entity has sucked hardcore, as all my mana's been generally tied up in paying equip costs or playing other spells. Additionally, Mirror Entity makes Engineered Plague a power play against this deck, as a Plague on Bird, Wizard, Cleric, or Human takes out eight threats in the deck..

1) Just wait till you start boarding in Waves and Ring turns them into one sided Wraths. Fun times. It really does make me wish i could run this card in every other Stompy variant.
2) Do you need the RFG specifically? I figured this is where Wave would shine, and I wouldn't want an anti aggro answer in the board that required me to board out Chalice i don't think since it is so solid against Goblins, Sligh, etc.
3) Ok. I'm on board for the swap. We just need to find a really good replacement. Decree can eat two of those slots, but it also needs to eat some Stonecloaker slots. I'll try out a couple of those Double Strikers and see how i like them. i like the idea of equip meaning a two turn clock...


...Also, damn you for presenting the problem of possibly needing 4 Moats in my collection.

Yeah...This is what we like to call a MWS deck. I do fear that this will prevent people from picking the deck up, although I guess sea Drake was a similar hurdle.

Tacosnape
01-30-2008, 08:15 PM
Actually, I needed STP for the speed and for being an instant more than anything. I lost a match to Goblins from a Goblin Lackey, as Siege-Gang / Gempalm Incinerator >> Your entire deck due to the low toughness factor. Jittes and SOFI bought me nothing, as I could never get anything equipped, and Pyrokinesis rolled me. Moat wasn't enough, as I got picked off by Siege-Gangs and a Sharpshooter. I might have had a shot could I have stopped the Lackey and gotten a threat equipped. Hypothetically the deck runs a lot of powerhouses against Goblins, but Goblins is very capable of preventing you from getting going.

I also lost a match to Cephalid Breakfast 2-1, and both the second and third games I had situations where an STP in hand would have put me strongly in position to win the game. The game I won was pretty neat, though, as I got a first turn Aven Mindcensor and managed to shut down Worldly Tutor and Eladamri's Call.

Jak
01-30-2008, 09:23 PM
Have you tried splashing blue? I mean, you really want to abuse Moat with flyers and blue has probably the best fliers. I tried to throw togther a list and came up with this.

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Midcensor
4 Mulldrifter

4 Moat
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB
4 Stoneclaoker
4 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb
3 Meta game slots (Crypt, StP, Glowrider, etc)

Just a thought. I really like the deck and was trying to find another good white flier, but I just kept thinking of blue. I will try to test this out if you haven't tried blue yet.

Nihil Credo
01-30-2008, 09:36 PM
Just wait till you start boarding in Waves and Ring turns them into one sided Wraths.
It might be that I'm not yet fully sober, but I can't think of a way to make a full Wrath out of Wave+Ring.

Sanguine Voyeur
01-30-2008, 09:40 PM
It might be that I'm not yet fully sober, but I can't think of a way to make a full Wrath out of Wave+Ring.Neither can I. I assumed he meant virtual Wraths with the game ending before they come back.

from Cairo
01-30-2008, 09:43 PM
Burrenton Bombardier

This card seems pretty solid, better than Mirror Entity. A 2/2 flyer for 3 isn't great, but it is an equipment carrying body. I could see this slot being comparable to SSG or Pestermite or the like, where the creature isn't all that impressive, but the utility it brings to the table warrants its inclusion.

Tacosnape
01-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Ring / Parallax would be a Wrath if Oblivion Ring had Flash. ...Not that that's particularly useful, just saying.

gosumog
01-31-2008, 05:49 AM
cant believe i forgot to mention loxodon.. mindcensor > loxodon > sofi equip the end

oh the replacement for moat is Parallax wave. mangara effect, flips angels lol flips gathan raiders =) i tested with gathan and loxodon a while back it worked pretty well. i just realized hokori is more manipulable(word? eh) with wave.
- morph angel > wave > remove some dude, swing with morph > drop hokori > wave hokori and untap, swing, use rest of counters to flip angel and hokori back to play, use the would be angel mana to play loxodon or something, and they got some newb mongoose ^^ (top of my head i bet wave has way more tricks up its sleeve)

im tryin to make this deck sideboard adjustable. to pure angel stompy, to taxes with vials against thresh. really mess with people >.< could splash for goyfs/bobs for some undetermined bad matchup yet to be tested, -4 tomb effects, +4 plateau/scrubs and maindeck a few fetches( yeah censor is terrible synergy but i havent been testin much, so it could be good if the deck ends up being adjustable)

oh another cool card is Decree of justice. uncounterable mass angels VS blue so sexy. and its alternative to moat as it has stopped many a goyf for me, and drawn me cards =) and let me split my sofis up for the win

wow taco youre right, moat is invincible with ee@3. that makes me want to lean toward moat build more

is hokori, loxodon, wave, and mangara too big of a dream :[? with cloakers and vial it could be a higher CC taxes on the side

Jak
01-31-2008, 09:52 AM
oh another cool card is Decree of justice. uncounterable mass angels VS blue so sexy. and its alternative to moat as it has stopped many a goyf for me, and drawn me cards =) and let me split my sofis up for the win

If you make angels, they can be countered.

Phantom
01-31-2008, 12:07 PM
Ring / Parallax would be a Wrath if Oblivion Ring had Flash. ...Not that that's particularly useful, just saying.

Yeah I'm an idiot here. For some reason I must have dreamed that they changed the way it works so if I Disenchanted or otherwise removed Wave, all the creatures wold stay gone.

Illissius
02-01-2008, 12:09 PM
Very cool idea. Stonecloaker seems terrible, though. You don't have so many other creatures, and the ones you have are fairly expensive. Looks situational and ass-slow. If your testing says otherwise (reality, after all, trumps theory), feel free to keep it, but I'd replace it with just about anything else, starting with Wild Griffin.

C.P.
02-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Is Eternal Dragon an option here? It is slow, but may be a good inclusion as a singleton or something. Also, Whip Spine Drake Might be a better choice than some fliers.

Either way, very nice deck. I'm exited, as I can probably make this deck in real life with 2 more moats.

Also, Taco wins naming war since Gargamel is Awesome. We need to put some kind of cat here to make it match the name. Gogo Seth's tiger. :tongue:

Phantom
02-01-2008, 12:43 PM
Is Eternal Dragon an option here? It is slow, but may be a good inclusion as a singleton or something. Also, Whip Spine Drake Might be a better choice than some fliers.


Whip Spine Drake. Interesting thought actually, and didn't show up thanks to it being freaking blue. I've considered Eternal dragon, i just can't see ever hardcasting it, and we really want to be doing something when we drop our first 2 mana land. Would stabalize the mana base though...

C.P.
02-01-2008, 12:53 PM
Whip Spine Drake. Interesting thought actually, and didn't show up thanks to it being freaking blue. I've considered Eternal dragon, i just can't see ever hardcasting it, and we really want to be doing something when we drop our first 2 mana land. Would stabalize the mana base though...

It also dodges Anarchy....Like it would ever matter.

Another Question. Do you see Armageddon as maindeck material?
Also, out out of many Chalice aggros out there, this deck seems like the only one that can possibly run Crucible. What is your thought?

Phantom
02-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Another Question. Do you see Armageddon as maindeck material?
Also, out out of many Chalice aggros out there, this deck seems like the only one that can possibly run Crucible. What is your thought?

I honestly don't know what to think about the whole Geddon thing. I've tested it vs. Landstill and was only able to resolve it once in ten games (and then into a Standstill...). Cataclysm might be better. Either way, I will have no room for them unless I can cut down on my dependence upon equipment, which doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

Phantom
02-03-2008, 12:59 PM
So I'm running through all the different options for replacing Entity, some Stonecloakers, and possibly a Mindcensor. Here are my thoughts so far:

1) Hoofprints - Just too slow sadly.
2) Skyhunter Skirmisher - Nuts sometimes, but I think it has too many drawbacks (double white and vulnerable to removal)
3) Decree of Justice - Have liked it so far, but haven't loved it (except against control). I think some amount will be in the final build, but not 4. Probably 2-3.
4) Burrenton Bombarder - Has been solid but unspectacular. The only creature he can save from bolt is himself.
5) Whip-Spine Drake - Also solid but I've had several hands where I wanted him on a mox, so I think it's a no go.
6) Windborn Muse - I like the way she stalls until I can find Moat/Ring/Equipment. I hate her toughness. In the running though.
7) Knight of Sursi - I've been surprised at how much I've liked this guy. Suspends around Chalice. Easily hard-casteable. Not one toughness. Allows us to drop Chalice @3 (to stop Grip, Deed, Vindicate) with less worry.
8) Welkin Hawk - Haven't tested it at all yet, but I'm intrigued.
9) Reveillark - Bah. If only the Evoke were cheaper he might be gold.


So I think the final four are Windborn Muse, Decree of Justice, Bombarder and Knight of Sursi. I'm off to do some more testing before the super bowl and see if I can narrow it down. Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

Illissius
02-03-2008, 06:08 PM
There's also Galepowder Mage. Which is awesome with a morphed Angel, but sucks if you have other creatures besides the Mage and your opponent doesn't.

ImaBorgerman
02-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Seriously, if Moat is a must play in this deck, wouldn't you love to have a backup in the form of Magus of the Moat?

Or shouldn't it be in your sideboard at least? I understand that Moat > Magus of the Moat (due to viable creature removals) but it's just a backup plan, one which you could probably bid for time till you drop the actual Moat. (vs goblins etc)

Mulligan for a Moat effect is much better too.

Also, you probably won't suffer as much to, say, Cranial Extraction Moat? Or even a first turn Duress for that matters.


On another note, perhaps a lone addition of Predator, Flagship may helps too.
Believes the 5 casting cost won't hurt you much at all. It gives you all the flying you need, and just ensures practically no creatures can surprise or fly past your Moat to even bother, or hurt you all all. Seriously, it might just help to wrap up the game fast.

Also not that it's entirely impossible, for extra style points, you could just let that opponent's Tarmogoyf board the Predator, Flagship, and then kicks him abroad. (pays 2, let it gains flying, pays 5, kills it) :D

Just my 2 cents and hoped that helps :)

from Cairo
02-04-2008, 06:48 PM
9) Reveillark - Bah. If only the Evoke were cheaper he might be gold.

Seems solid a 1-2 of. I mean 5 is expensive, but a 4/3 flyer that when your opponent kills it you get two guys back into play seems awesome.

Maveric78f
02-05-2008, 03:34 AM
Plus it's combo with Stonecloaker.

Lego
02-05-2008, 09:43 AM
Ring / Parallax would be a Wrath if Oblivion Ring had Flash. ...Not that that's particularly useful, just saying.

Not actually true, because of Parallax Wave's eratta:

Remove a fade counter from Parallax Wave: Remove target creature from the game if Parallax Wave is in play .

Phantom
02-05-2008, 06:28 PM
Some interesting thoughts here. My responses:

Reveillark - A high ceiling, but too low a floor for my taste. He's dead when I have :2::w: or :2::w::w:. And his ability is useless when I have no creatures in the yard, only Angels and Reveillarks in the yard, or even if the creatures I can bring back are useless. If I'm including a 5cc card here, it had better be a bomb.

Galepowder Mage - Too many drawbacks I think. Removing my Glowriders or Mindcensors from the game is bad, even for an instant. He might be worth it in a build built around his ability, but I'm not willing to do that.

Magus of the Moat - I understand the thinking here, but here's why I don't run him. Preboard he's way to easy to remove, and postboard there are almost always better options. Moat is almost always a great card preboard because no one is prepared for it. You can't say the same about Magus. Everyone is prepared for it and can handle it. Postboard, there are almost no matchups where I would board in Moat over other hate cards, let alone Magus of the Moat.

Predator, Flagship - Interesting, but way too many drawbacks for my taste. 5cc, not white, useless with no creatures in play or against combo, mana heavy, etc.

---------------------------------------------------

I'm still debating the board. I haven't loved Geddon in the Landstill matchup, and Parralax Wave hasn't been as good as I remember. Here are my board thoughts:

Bad matchups:
Landstill
Black Aggro with Sinkhole
Even Matchups:
Goblins
Dragon Stompy

Crypt - The only auto include.
Trini - Probable. Hits Storm Combo and Thresh. Both are already great matchups though, so maybe not.
Suppression Field - I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Helps in the Survival, Breakfast, and Landstill matchup. Not sure though.
Ghostly Prison - Probably the best option against Goblins as it isn't as narrow as T. Crusade, is easy to cast, and splits there Grips up between this, Moat, and equipment.
Mobilization - I thought maybe this would be a nice bomb in the control matchup (where Moat is usually least useful or difficult to keep around).
Replenish - Brings Moat and Ring back. I'll have to test this though, because I'm scared that it will be dead too often.
Pursuit of Knowledge - Terrible topdeck and sucks vs. removal or Stifle. Too bad. Would be fun in a draw deck with Hoofprints.
Scour - Probably too narrow, but I like the way it kicks Deed and Survival in the balls.

Phantom
02-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Here's the new list and I'm going to update the first post I think:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [10E] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Mobilization
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field

I've been loving the sideboard. I don't think I need Trini to help with Storm Combo so I dropped it. The Landstill matchup is actually winnable now while we received some powerful tools vs. Aggro and activated abilities. Here's what I'm thinking as far as boarding strategies:

vs Landstill:
-4 Chalice
-3 Jitte

+4 Suppression Field
+3 Mobilization

Basically this is all to make them waste a Deed on only one permanent. Some Landstill players will bring in E Plague on Soilders, but they usually just end up blowing it up with their Deed or you can Ring it. They also might Extirpate your Decree.


vs Thresh:
Hmmm. Not even sure you should board anything. I might go:

-5 equipment
+5 Some combo of Suppression Field and Prison

(any advice here?)

vs Gobs:
This sort of depends on build, but

on the play:
-4 Glowrider
on the draw:
-4 Chalice

+4 Prison


...more later

Phantom
02-15-2008, 12:16 PM
Newest change:

-4 Suppression Field
+4 Pithing Needle


Field was cute, but wasn't completely shutting down Deed and Survival which is what I need from that spot in the board. Opening post updated.

Phantom
04-25-2008, 04:24 PM
So, I haven't been able to do much with this deck thanks to school and my other Moat deck (which was putting up better results) but Shadowmoor an obvious inclusion in the form of Swans of Bryn Argoll. These birds are nuts here. The new mono W list would probably be:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [10E] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Spells
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Mobilization
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle


Swans also give us the option (called to my attention by Taco) of comboing out with access to a single red for Chain of Plasma and Conflagerate (the second red can be from another land drop or mox imprint). I'm not sure if this is worth it, but it certainly seems promising as all the combo cards are at least decent on their own. The biggest hurdle will be reliably getting :w::w: and :r:. I'm not sure what the manabase will be (how many fetches? how many Plateaus? how many Plains? Cut Flagstones?) and what I'll cut for Chain and Conflagrate (probably equipment?).

Anyway, suggestions are always a help, and I'll keep anyone who cares updated.

Nihil Credo
04-25-2008, 05:13 PM
Swans/Chains combo: Don't, you have zero draw.

Speaking of Shadowmoor, what about Spectral Procession? The mana cost is good for the deck (WWW or 2WW or 4W or 6), and 3x 1/1 fliers are probably better than a single 3/3 flier, since fliers in this format are usually big. Three 1/1s are resilient to spot removal and when facing down a fat guy, you can suicide attack with all of them to charge up a Jitte, then equip the Jitte to a survivor and have a threat that can kill Stalker/Enforcer/Angel/Dragon.

Isamaru
04-25-2008, 05:48 PM
There are disadvantages to splitting up a creature, though, such as succeptibility to Pernicious Deed and Tabernacles.

I would at leats give Swans/Chain combo a test to see if you can ever pull it off, but only if you don't dilute the deck by including it in the test.

Joe_C
04-25-2008, 08:44 PM
Ive been testing this deck for a little while and I must say.. I love it... I think the maindeck is just about as perfect as it can be. The board has great options too, I finally have a deck that I can run suppression field in!

Happy Gilmore
04-25-2008, 09:49 PM
Is there a damn good reason why this deck can't be WU?

Stay with me for a sec....


4 Windborn Muse
4 Exhalted Angel
4 Efreet
4 Sea Drake
3 Trinket Mage

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oblivion Stone
3 Jitte
1 EE
1 Crypt
1 Pithing needle
2 SoFI
2 Moat

4 Chrome Mox
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Tada, I call it Mush! lols. It would need work, but it seems to be worth it. If only for Trinket Mage and better flyers.

Nihil Credo
04-26-2008, 06:33 AM
Is there a damn good reason why this deck can't be WU?
Yes. The same reason why Faerie Stompy can't be UW.

Happy Gilmore
04-26-2008, 07:43 PM
Yes. The same reason why Faerie Stompy can't be UW.

Why the heck not?

Sanguine Voyeur
04-26-2008, 07:45 PM
Adding a second colour to Chalice Aggro decks severely ruins consistency for not much gain.

At least from my experience.

Happy Gilmore
04-26-2008, 08:07 PM
Adding a second colour to Chalice Aggro decks severely ruins consistency for not much gain.

At least from my experience.

Every chalice agro deck I have ever played has had mana consistency issues regardless. Theoretically if you build the mana base right you can have access to the same number of colored sources of each color. This should make a 2 color build work.

Phantom
04-26-2008, 11:17 PM
I would be hesitant to splash any color in here for a few reasons:

- You need access to double White.
- It makes wasteland about five times better against you.
- It makes Blood Moon about a hundred times better against you.

clearly, there are some advantages, such as the vast superiority of blue flying creatures. Still, I think if the deck is going to succeed, it will be mono W (it's possible I'm wrong). Heck, we already got another quality, sizable, difficult to remove (especially with Chalice out) threat (Swans) since the deck was created, and Spectral Procession still needs to be tested in either the Mindcensor or Glowrider slot.

@ bruenor: Thanks for playing it. I'd appreciate any feedback or matchup analysis or pretty much anything you can provide as I don't get to test the deck much.

Maëlig
04-27-2008, 04:37 AM
Has cataclysm been considered (at least as a board option) in this deck?
I mean, large threats such as exhalted angel combined with equipment and the flagstones seems to be quite synergic with it. Plus your moat or ring stays on the field. I guess you have other means of stopping hordes of creatures like muse or prison, but cataclysm is also quite valuable in the control MU.

Cavius The Great
04-27-2008, 12:25 PM
@Phantom - I'm going to give away some secret tech to you. You're running 4 Moat right? Have you considered Hunted Lammasu? Seems to be really solid with Moat. I play Lammasu in Djinn Stompy with MD Moats as well. I'm divulging my tech becuase I already have a foil playset. :wink:

troopatroop
04-27-2008, 12:53 PM
@Phantom - I'm going to give away some secret tech to you. You're running 4 Moat right? Have you considered Hunted Lammasu? Seems to be really solid with Moat. I play Lammasu in Djinn Stompy with MD Moats as well. I'm divulging my tech becuase I already have a foil playset. :wink:

And when you don't have a moat in play, it will continue to be a bad card. I love playing conditional cards with better alternatives, don't you? Danger of cool things.

Cavius The Great
04-27-2008, 01:10 PM
And when you don't have a moat in play, it will continue to be a bad card. I love playing conditional cards with better alternatives, don't you? Danger of cool things.

It's not a bad card. You'll be ahead of your opponent's clock by 1 damage. It's not any worse than Flesh Reaver and Reaver has seen significant play.

Phantom
04-27-2008, 07:31 PM
I wouldn't run Hunted unless I had 8+ ways to counteract its drawback. With just Moat you are too often risking turning creature removal into card advantage, which is never a good thing in Legacy (and we are already exposing ourselves with equipment). I know this because I tried it once upon a time.

I'm always open to suggestions though.

MTL10
04-28-2008, 04:06 PM
this seems like a really solid deck list. I wouldn't under any condition cut the aven mindsensors like some of you are hinting. they're a serious hit to the nuts to any multi-colored deck that plans on fixing their mana with fetchlands, which happens to be 90% of the field (personal estimation :P). i hope some of you guys are able to build it and get it going good, i wouldnt mind seeing lists like this popping up in top 8 reports around the nation... just good luck with getting a hold of the moats... at $60 a piece (and rising) they'll be a hot one to get a hold of.

overseer1234
05-26-2008, 09:12 AM
Any updates on the deck or is it just not good enough to compete?

Which would be a shame because I really like the concept...

Melwis
05-26-2008, 05:50 PM
Has Worship been mentioned? Seems solid to me but I really don't know for sure =P

Phantom
05-26-2008, 10:09 PM
Any updates on the deck or is it just not good enough to compete?

Which would be a shame because I really like the concept...


Sorry no updates. Clearly the deck has potential, but I've been busy with exams/moving/newGF/etc. I really want to tinker around with the deck some more, so I'll keep you posted.


Has Worship been mentioned? Seems solid to me but I really don't know for sure =P

Worship is only really good with untargetable creatures, and even then this is a terrible meta for it considering every deck (even Goblins and sui) are packing enchantment hate, and will certainly be boarding it in against us.

I promise to test Swans some once I get internet in my new place.

Roman Candle
05-26-2008, 10:28 PM
It would amuse me greatly to find a way to build the deck around Preeminent Captain... there are a lot of interesting soldiers that could fit.

Daru Cavalier
Shu Soldier-Farmers (maybe?)
Burrenton Brigadier
Reborn Hero
Jotun Grunt
Lowland Tracker (meh... Provoke seems fun)
Kjeldoran Home Guard (if you overload on the SoFI's and SoLS's, maybe?)
Enlistment Officer
Intrepid Hero (Tarmogoyf can suck my inner ear)
ZHANG-FEI, FIERCE WARRIOR (a 4/4 Phantom Warrior that can stick around to block... funfun with Equips)
Shu Cavalry (probably not, but Phantom Warriors are nice with Equipment)
Aven Riftwatcher

It would probably be a lot weaker, since Moat is such a backbreaker against Thresh, Goblins, and pretty much any deck with creatures...

But you get to play f***ing ZHANG-FEI. Admit it. That's pretty badass.

EDIT: There are also soldiers with banding. You know, if banding has an effect on the gamestate.. I really don't know. You could just tell people that it does something completely different because nobody really knows how it works, judges included.

Joon
01-28-2009, 05:04 PM
REANIMATE!

Phantom, anything new?

What about Elspeth in this deck? Generates Tokens that can attack through Moat and is in general pretty useful.

Gargangel 2k9

//Manabase (19 Lands +4 Mox)

10 Plains
1 Flagstone
4 Tombs
4 Cities

4 Chrome Mox

//Critters and Generators (22)

4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Hunted Lamassu
4 Herald of Serra (pretty meh, but what else could be played here?)
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Decree of Justice

//Neat Stuff (15)

4 Moat
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

//Sideboard

4 Glowrider
4 Crypt
4 Needle
3 random

What about more equipment (2 Jitte or something like that). Do you think that Swans of Bryn Agroll or how the heck to spell that is better than the sucking Herald?

What do you guys think about Decree? And Mobilization? I prefer Decree in here, just because Mobilization were way to slow against non Control.

Also, some suggestions for the Sideboard?

Hunted Lamassu is pretty sweet with 8 ways to handle it's drawback (and a third: just race that token with Exalted). Mindcensor is sometimes random but steals games against combo...not sure about him, though.

morgan_coke
01-28-2009, 05:17 PM
Herald of Serra is made of suck. Voidstone Gargoyle, Serra Avenger, and Eternal Dragon are all things I thought of in .12 seconds which are infinitely better.

Actually, why hasn't this deck ever run Dragons? They seem like a good fit for it with the plains fetching and all. I do agree though that Elspeth is crazy insane ice cream sundae goodness here.

Occam
01-28-2009, 06:20 PM
How about taking out 4 x lammasu for 4 x trinisphere and replacing 4 x herald with 4 x glowrider/hunted gargoyle/serra avenger? It would shore up game 1 against combo and give the random broken openings that 1st turn 3spheres allow. None of the other cards cost less than 3, so it will not be a disadvantage in any way. I also think that SOFIs should become SOLSs. Protection against white and black removal is much more relevant, and getting back creatures addresses a fundamental flaw of all chalice decks -- the inability to incorporate a draw engine to find threats. Getting creatures back gives moat stompy a much better lategame.

Phantom
01-28-2009, 11:12 PM
The problem I'm having with the deck right now is its curve. I want to run Faerie Stompy's manabase, with Dragon Stompy's curve (actually even higher). Ideally, most of the beaters (and Moat) would cost :2::w: but in reality most cost :2::w::w: or :3::w::w:. If I can figure out a way to work that, I'll be set to get testing with a new build. There have been some awesome new flyers and cards printed for this deck. I'd like to test out the following:

Glowrider
Aven Mindcensor
Exalted Angel
Battlegrace Angel
Archon of Justice (ZOMG)
Elspereth (which is amazing and makes me want to run Humility)
Voidstone Gargoyle
Burrenton Bombardier
Reveillark
Kithkin Spellduster (probably too expensive, but persist is nice)

DukeDemonKn1ght
01-29-2009, 02:28 AM
I did a search and came up with a few flying creatures that would be good with Reveillark in this deck, with a few interesting results:

*Mystic Crusader (not too sure how achievable threshold would be, esp. with Reveillark... But he dodges about 50% of all removal, and can potentially fly... still kind of lackluster.)

*Celestial Crusader (this seems like an option at least... could save your creatures from burn or Pyroclasm, can be played on their turn to give it pseudo-haste, and is uncounterable...)

*Lieutenant Kirtar - (I realize this one's a little nutty, but it could always just be a one-or-two-of or something... I mean, he RfG's Tarmogoyf, while flying over to beat for two, and then comes back when Reveillark gets killed... And he RfG's Tarmogoyf with mana parity as long as he swings at least once first, and we could play him on the second turn, how bad could that possibly be?)

*Aven Riftwatcher - (Pretty awesome with Reveillark, actually. Low casting cost the first time makes it sort of like Kitchen Finks, except it flies over your Moat, giving you a net gain of four life every time you play it. And, unlike Finks, you can return it to play with Reveillark. How is that not cool?)

*Tethered Griffin - (Probably not worth the amount of building-around that it would take to effectively use, but in a build that packed a lot of enchantments, it could maybe be good...)

... And those are pretty much the only ones I saw... I think the best tech I came across is Aven Riftwatcher, providing you're using Reveillark that is.

Let me suggest this as another creature base:

4 Glowrider
4 Aven Mind-Censor
4 Aven Rift-Watcher
2 Lieutenant Kirtar/ Celestial Crusader/ Elspeth (?)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Reveillark

It seems like this creature base would make really awesome use of equipment, I'd probably compliment it with a suite of 2 Jitte and 2 SoF&I, or possibly 2 SoL&S to augment the reanimation strategy with Reveillark. Lieutenant Kirtar would probably be better as Elspeth, but I just thought I'd promote him because I think the extra removal he provides is kinda nice, esp. since Reveillark can reanimate him.

Unfortunately, I don't see myself ever making this deck, because I don't think four Moats is in my budget, but it's cool to see folks making mono-white decks around here. Let me know if y'all get any good results with this, or what you think of the creatures I suggested.:cool:

Occam
01-29-2009, 03:30 AM
I don't think 'lark is good for this deck due to the curve. The deck needs to max out at 5, and anything else gives it a poor game against deadguy/pox variants, as well as G/R goblins.

I have been testing (and doing pretty well) with this list:

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
9 x Plains
2 x Flagstones
4 x Chrome Mox

4 x Aven Mindcensor
4 x Windborn Muse
4 x Glowrider
4 x Exalted Angel
3 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 x Decree of Justice

4 x Trinisphere/SOLS (depending on meta and preference)
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Oblivion Ring
4 x Moat

SB:

3/4 x Wilt-leaf Liege/Dodecapod
4 x Sphere of Law
4 x Crypt/Relic
3/4 x Metagame Slots

This is in no way a finalised or optimised list, as I was testing with certain matchups in mind. Black-based decks with huge amounts of disruption are this deck's worst matchup. I prefer to board against hand disruption, which is what wilt-leaf/ dodecapod are for. Sphere of Law helps against burn, goblins and seismic assault. Crypt/relic are there for obvious reasons, and the metagame slots can be anything from needle to help landstill/dreadstill/belcher matchups to spheres for battling AdN combo.

I feel that this mix of creatures and spells gives great game against combo in game 1, while making the game against swarm aggro more winnable. The possible leaving out of equipment hurts, but trinisphere and glowrider give great matches against threshold and combo, while exalted angel and windborn muse do the job against swarm aggro. Battlegrace angel is a great card as well, and I am testing it currently.

Joon
01-29-2009, 04:57 AM
Elspeth is amazin in this kind of deck. You HAVE to play AT LEAST 2. She is so good.

I somehow managed to overlook Herald of Serra's Echo cost. Therefore it's garbage.

Gargangel 2k9 2.0

//Manabase (19 Lands +4 Mox)

10 Plains
1 Flagstone
4 Tombs
4 Cities

4 Chrome Mox

//Critters and Generators (22)

4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Hunted Lamassu
4 Swans of Bryn Agoll (Battlegrace Angel/Archon of Justice are tested here)
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Decree of Justice

//Neat Stuff (15)

4 Moat
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

//Sideboard

4 Glowrider
4 Crypt
4 Needle
3 random

Let's look at the curve:

cc1: Nothin'
cc2: Nothin' except Chalice @ 1
cc3: Mindcensor, O-Ring, Sword, morphed Angel (15)
cc4: Hunted Lamassu, Elspeth, Swans, Moat (16)
higher: sometimes Decree

Phantom, you are right with the fact that my curve is clogged up at 2WW, but I can't think of fixing this somehow. Glowrider makes Moat and Orings too expensive imo. He's more Sideboard material.

I'm currently tinkering around with cutting Decree for one of those 2W Flyers to have more critters in this range. That guy with Reinforce seems okay.

Swans look very appealing to me due the fact that they simply can't die in cc. Swords are bad news, but for that you have Chalice @ 1 and other threats, against your opponents 4 Swords stand your 12 BIG threats (Lamassu, Angel and Swans, dito Elspeth, but she can't be handled with Swords). Against Burn we have Chalice (and SoFaI hindering Bolts becoming Recalls).

Lamassu is sometimes a bit risky but you have enough ways to compensate the drawback due Oring and Moat plus Lifegaining effects.

I'm also not sure if I should play Equipment or further Disruption in form of Trinisphere. Without the Equipment the smaller guys (Elspeth's Tokens, Mindcensor and the new flyer I'm planning to add) lose their quality.

Which Equipment do you recommend? SoFaI? SoLaS or Jitte?

Occam
01-29-2009, 06:54 AM
If Glowrider were placed in SB, then I would advise going 4/2 with sword/jitte. I prefer SOLS for the recursion of threats, life swing and the more relevant protection. I would not run Lammasu either, as it very easily gives your opponents virtual card advantage and makes the deck even more susceptible to spot removal. Battlegrace angel is superior, has good synergy with exalted angel, and fills out the curve nicely.

If I replaced Glowrider, my list would look like:

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
9 x Plains
2 x Flagstones
4 x Chrome Mox

4 x Aven Mindcensor
4 x Windborn Muse
4 x Exalted Angel
3 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 x Decree of Justice
2 x Battlegrace Angel

4 x SOLS
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Oblivion Ring
4 x Moat

The curve would then look like:

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 0
2 CMC: 2/6 (lowest/highest)(Jitte, Chalice at 1)
3 CMC: 12/16 (Mindcensor, SOLS, Oring, and morphed angel)
4 CMC: 11/19 (Muse, Elspeth, Moat, Cotv at 2 and angel if morphed)
5 CMC: 2 (Battlegrace Angel)
6 CMC: 0/4 (Angel if hardcasted)
X CMC: 0/6 (Decree, Chalice)

Quite a workable curve, even in the face of disruption.

The SB NEEDS to address pox/deadguy type decks, as well as swarm aggro, combo, and possibly GY decks, which is the inherent weakness in leaving Glowrider and 3sphere out of the main and relegating them to the side. Any suggestions on how to board against pox/deadguy decks, or does the deck simply focus on its other matchips and concede this one?

Phantom
01-29-2009, 08:02 PM
The curve would then look like:

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 0
2 CMC: 2/6 (lowest/highest)(Jitte, Chalice at 1)
3 CMC: 12/16 (Mindcensor, SOLS, Oring, and morphed angel)
4 CMC: 11/19 (Muse, Elspeth, Moat, Cotv at 2 and angel if morphed)
5 CMC: 2 (Battlegrace Angel)
6 CMC: 0/4 (Angel if hardcasted)
X CMC: 0/6 (Decree, Chalice)

Quite a workable curve, even in the face of disruption.


I disagree. We have Faerie Stompy's manabase (in this case +1 color source). Look at their curve:

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 1-2 (Needle and Sigil)
2 CMC: 2-3/6-7 (lowest/highest)(Jitte, Chalice at 1)
3 CMC: 20-22 (Trinket, Pester, Drake, Serendib plus Swords)
4 CMC: 2-4 (Sower)
5 CMC: 3-4/7-8 (Mulldrifter)

AND more importantly, double mana symbols:

White: 13 (including Angel)
Blue: 2-4 (not counting FoW)

We either need to cut down the curve and colored costs, or find a way to make the mana work.

Occam
01-30-2009, 03:02 AM
I disagree. We have Faerie Stompy's manabase (in this case +1 color source). Look at their curve:

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 1-2 (Needle and Sigil)
2 CMC: 2-3/6-7 (lowest/highest)(Jitte, Chalice at 1)
3 CMC: 20-22 (Trinket, Pester, Drake, Serendib plus Swords)
4 CMC: 2-4 (Sower)
5 CMC: 3-4/7-8 (Mulldrifter)

AND more importantly, double mana symbols:

White: 13 (including Angel)
Blue: 2-4 (not counting FoW)

We either need to cut down the curve and colored costs, or find a way to make the mana work.


I disagree. We have Faerie Stompy's manabase (in this case +1 color source). Look at their curve:

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 1-2 (Needle and Sigil)
2 CMC: 2-3/6-7 (lowest/highest)(Jitte, Chalice at 1)
3 CMC: 20-22 (Trinket, Pester, Drake, Serendib plus Swords)
4 CMC: 2-4 (Sower)
5 CMC: 3-4/7-8 (Mulldrifter)

AND more importantly, double mana symbols:

White: 13 (including Angel)
Blue: 2-4 (not counting FoW)

We either need to cut down the curve and colored costs, or find a way to make the mana work.


I agree, but only to a certain extent. FS has a different mentality (a small difference, but still a marked one), in that this deck relies first and foremost on moat and whether components work with moat -- FS has better individual components, but this deck can afford to play slower as it has more control elements (glowrider, trinisphere if md, moat, mindcensor). The curve was also why I preferred Glowrider. To cut down on CMC, I wuld play something like this:

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
9 x Plains
2 x Flagstones
4 x Chrome Mox

4 x Aven Mindcensor
4 x Windborn Muse
4 x Glowrider
4 x Exalted Angel
3 x Decree of Justice/Elspeth (possibly cutting one for a land)

4 x SOLS
2 x Umezawa's jitte
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Oblivion Ring
4 x Moat

Assuming Decree is played,

0 CMC: 4 (Mox)
1 CMC: 0
2 CMC: 2/6 (Jitte, Chalice)
3 CMC: 16/20 (Mindcensor, Glowrider, Sword, Oring, morphed Angel)
4 CMC: 8 (Muse, Moat)
6 CMC: 4 (Angel)
X CMC: 3 (Decree, I listed Cotv under 2 as it is likely to be at 1 for a lot of matchups, at 2 max for the vast majority)

Assuming Decree is cycled, which is likely against the decks it is best against, we have 8 cards with double white, which happen to be the two most backbreaking cards we have. The only other way around the concern would be to cut another 4 cards and play a white mana accelerant.

Mordenkaynen
01-30-2009, 04:48 AM
Just a note that wasn't mentioned in the thread:
Galepowder Mage removes the token of Hunted Lamasu.

DukeDemonKn1ght
01-30-2009, 07:10 AM
I'd think Adarkar Valkyrie would be better than Hunted Lammasu or Battlegrace Angel, because she doesn't provide virtual CA unlike Lammasu, doesn't provide any incentive to laze around and not attack, unlike Battlegrace Angel, and she goes a little ways of the distance to shore up y'all's susceptibility to spot removal... Figured she'd be worth a look-see.:cool:

Mordel
01-30-2009, 03:21 PM
At the heart of it all, Valkyrie costs six mana, has a very conditional(though admittedly "clinchie" ability) and is a 4/5 flier with vigilance. Battlegrace angel is jank in my opinion, due to the 3ww casting cost and lamasu is also jank because...it has a horrible drawback. Banking on having a moat out when selecting creatures to run is extremely stupid(not to be mistaken with choosing creatures that function with a moat out)...especially when a creature requires a moat on the table to not be terrible.

The six mana cost of valkyrie and the fact you need to wait a turn to use here makes her horribad. If there is removal dodging needed, cloaker seems like one of the better choices for protection and beatings...it also swings for one less than the angel, which costs twice as much...though functionally, cloaker has echo almost, because you will need to recast what he has bounced.

In any event, a recap:

Battlegrace angel smacks of suck because of the 5cc and double white.
Lamasu sucks because it requires a moat to be out to not be horrible.
Valkyrie costs too much.

Unfortunately, blue has plenty of great single coloured-in-the-cc cards and red has rituals to shore up any coloured mana requirements for its dudes, but the formula of no non-sense beaters that actually fit into a tomb aggro mana base's curve should be explored a bit more before running shit that costs five to six mana or has shitty drawbacks.

Edit: Galepowder mage actually sounds like an interesting if only because it works into the curve OK and removes a tombstalker that may be standing in the way and also fucks around with naughts. An unlikely fit, but it seems like an interesting card.

Pulp_Fiction
01-30-2009, 05:00 PM
After reading through the thread and looking at all the viable options, wouldn't 3x Flagstones and 2-4 Cataclysm be really solid in this deck? I have never played it, but it looks VERY interesting. I don't think Elspeth would be very good in here for the simple fact that you only run quite expensive creatures and would probably not be able to protect her against any kind of opposing army and/or burn spells. If Moat is in play ... fucking sexy, but aside from that, I don't think Elspeth is that hot. In rich man stacks it is different, you have 4x Humility and 4x Moat to protect the card, but in a Stompy deck, I dont know. But Cataclysm just seems hot in this deck, as does maindeck Ghostly Prison, but I see why you choose to not run the Prison.

Anusien
01-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Conflux adds Lapse of Certainty, a 2W Memory Lapse. Seems like a decent answer to Pernicious Deed if you're worried.

Mordel
01-30-2009, 07:23 PM
...as long as you win before it comes down the next turn.

Occam
01-31-2009, 05:00 AM
At the heart of it all, Valkyrie costs six mana, has a very conditional(though admittedly "clinchie" ability) and is a 4/5 flier with vigilance. Battlegrace angel is jank in my opinion, due to the 3ww casting cost and lamasu is also jank because...it has a horrible drawback. Banking on having a moat out when selecting creatures to run is extremely stupid(not to be mistaken with choosing creatures that function with a moat out)...especially when a creature requires a moat on the table to not be terrible.

The six mana cost of valkyrie and the fact you need to wait a turn to use here makes her horribad. If there is removal dodging needed, cloaker seems like one of the better choices for protection and beatings...it also swings for one less than the angel, which costs twice as much...though functionally, cloaker has echo almost, because you will need to recast what he has bounced.

In any event, a recap:

Battlegrace angel smacks of suck because of the 5cc and double white.
Lamasu sucks because it requires a moat to be out to not be horrible.
Valkyrie costs too much.

Unfortunately, blue has plenty of great single coloured-in-the-cc cards and red has rituals to shore up any coloured mana requirements for its dudes, but the formula of no non-sense beaters that actually fit into a tomb aggro mana base's curve should be explored a bit more before running shit that costs five to six mana or has shitty drawbacks.

Edit: Galepowder mage actually sounds like an interesting if only because it works into the curve OK and removes a tombstalker that may be standing in the way and also fucks around with naughts. An unlikely fit, but it seems like an interesting card.

The reason why I wrote about the choice to include 2 x Battlegrace was because of the removal of Glowrider, which I agree isn't optimal in MD but fills the 3drop role plus gives good game against combo, plus Battlegrace Angel is a great card against aggro, when you can't expect to have more than 1-2 creatures online due to attrition and removal. That it synergises with exalted angel is good as well.

Agreed about Galepowder mage, but its uses are too narrow for a 4 drop.

The cataclysm plan is interesting, and it did work for several variants of angel stompy/ geddon stax, but this deck doesn't have the early game presence to warrant a quick cataclysm to give tempo. It needs testing, but at first glance creatures like mindcensor may not work too well with the cataclysm plan.

arebennian
07-03-2009, 09:46 AM
Necro-thread!

Baneslayer Angel
Protection From Demons and Dragons
Flying, First Strike, Lifelink
3WW



Still has the WW problem? CMC 5 = :rolleyes: ?

CREATURES = 16
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swans of Bryn Argol
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Aven Mindsensor

OTHER = 20
3 Trinisphere
3 SOLS
2 Jitte
4 Chalice
4 Ring
4 Moat


LANDS = 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Plains
2 Flagstones
4 Chrome Mox

Darkenslight
07-04-2009, 10:27 AM
What about Masako the Humorless? She fits into the 2W slot, and allows your tapped crestures to block. OH, and she has Flash.

Also, Skyhunter Cub may be useful, considering the Moats that you play. Cub +Sword =Big angry man.