[Budget] Thresh

[Internet Hate Machine]

Hello the source! I have recently decided I would like to join the legacy community, however, I have no job at the time and obtaining high value cards has been a bit of a problem for me. Last year, when I first took an interest in legacy, I was playing a rather poor mono blue "counter" deck which I wasnt really feeling the need to innovate because my meta is rather terrible. Now, dont get me wrong, I wanted to get better, but there really wasnt a need, until I found out about legacy that is.

"Whats this? A tournament scene that doesnt require $2000 cards or buying five boxes of every new expansion? Sign me up." After a good amount of online research, I became more aware of the better decks of the format, and my own deck begin to evolve.

With my first purchase I turned it into a more R/G/U GRO deck with some quirion dryad, cantrips, and wee dragonauts. It ran decently, but overall still seemed too fragile for competetive play. I was at a loss, still being a scrub, and didn't know much on how to improve the deck. Then I found threshold. Now this seemed like a deck I would enjoy playing, but it came at a high price. This was of course, pre tarmogoyf, which has gone leaps and bounds to put the finished decklist out of reach.

Long story short, I managed to scrounge up enough money for the force of wills, and my friend recently accuired a tarmogoyf, and he has decided to be awesome and lend it to me. Of course tarmogoyf is not the main problem, the lands are. After repeat testing with all the alternatives, I have managed to build a consistant controlling list that runs effectively, a "poor mans" threshold if you will.

However, there are still some issues I have. What to sideboard? What is an actual texas metagame like? Can I expect to win any matches with this kind of decklist? It should also be noted that this list is VERY removal heavy, that is a metagame decision. By now I am probably boring you, so heres the list.

Nimble mongoose x4
werebear x3
tarmogoyf x1
mystic enforcer x2

swords to plowshares x4
Lightning bolt x3
pyroclasm x3

Ponder x4
serum visions x4
predict x4
Senseis Divining top x2
portent x2

Force of will x4
daze x3

City of brass x4
Gemstone mine x4
terramorphic expanse x4
Island x2
plains x1
mountain x1
forest x1


Now, as you can see this is very different from the Threshold deck you would know. The card choices were mainly made on money available, but I feel I can adapt it to be a real force with the proper hate. As for the lands, we have city of brass and gemstone mine where there would be duals, and terramorphic expanse to fetch basics, which there should be alot of. It should also be noted that this deck tries to operate in a more controlling manner than is typical of thresh.

As for the sideboard, I was thinking I would want Counterbalance of course (may be worth maindecking, still not sure of the metagame I would see), Trygon predator, probably krosan grip, but past that I am completely unsure, so ANY imput is a huge help.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Welcome to the Source

Running Daze with only 6 "Islands" is a bad idea. Having dead Dazes later on in the game because the extra mana is meaningless is acceptable. Having dead Dazes in your opening grip because you have no Islands is awful.

Add Counterbalance for the Counter/Top engine. Its within your budget and hates on 1/2-3/4 of the format.

Your next big purchase should be the blue fetches so you can run Brainstorm. I cant stress enough how much Brainstorm/Fetch adds to this type of deck.

[Tacosnape]

I have no idea about how viable that is without the right lands, but two points:

1. Not running Brainstorm is probably actually a decent idea here, given that you only have four Shuffle effects (Although with Predict, it gets stronger)

2. Running Daze, on the other hand, is a terrible idea, given that you only have two islands.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Welcome to the Source

Running Daze with only 6 "Islands" is a bad idea. Having dead Dazes later on in the game because the extra mana is meaningless is acceptable. Having dead Dazes in your opening grip because you have no Islands is awful.

Add Counterbalance for the Counter/Top engine. Its within your budget and hates on 1/2-3/4 of the format.

Your next big purchase should be the blue fetches so you can run Brainstorm. I cant stress enough how important Brainstorm/Fetch is


I cant possibly forsee my next big purchase, which is a huge problem to be honest. As for the dead dazes thing, I only run 3, While as I have 6 ways to pull an island out turn one. Normally I either have a way to play the daze, or I can pitch it to force, which is much better than losing a cantrip, so I really cant say dead daze is usually a problem for me.

As to the fetches, after I purchase them, what method would you suggest I pull my other basics with? Should I run some split of wooded foothills and flooded strand? I need some way to get those mountains and forests out there.

[GiantGrowth]

he has decided to be awesome and lend it to me.

Heck yea I'm awesome!

[xsockmonkeyx]

As to the fetches, after I purchase them, what method would you suggest I pull my other basics with? Should I run some split of wooded foothills and flooded strand? I need some way to get those mountains and forests out there.

At that point you might have to drop a color because your manabase would be less rainbow-y. I wouldnt run Wooded Foothills if the only lands I could fetch with it were basic Forest or Mountain.

Also 6 ways to get an Island is probably not enough to support Daze even as a 3 of. If you want more protection you could maybe try Spell Snare.

[Internet Hate Machine]

At that point you might have to drop a color because your manabase would be less rainbow-y. I wouldnt run Wooded Foothills if the only lands I could fetch with it were basic Forest or Mountain.

Also 6 ways to get an Island is probably not enough to support Daze even as a 3 of.

Maybe not, but, as I said I haven't really run into a problem yet with current play exp. If I were to have a serious problem though, what would you suggest as an alternative, so I dont loose too much control over the mid and early game?

[Nihil Credo]

Since your #1 concern is the manabase, why of all things would you pick four-colour Threshold to port? If you cut red or white from that list, I'm almost positive you'll end up with a better deck.

Perhaps you can even make a decent UG list like the GenCon one. Although you should get Stifle and Wastelands eventually (they're versatile staples), you could run the list with maindecked Counterbalance instead of mana denial. Quirion Dryad is also really cheap these days.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Since your #1 concern is the manabase, why of all things would you pick four-colour Threshold to port? If you cut red or white from that list, I'm almost positive you'll end up with a better deck.

Perhaps you can even make a decent UG list like the GenCon one. Although you should get Stifle and Wastelands eventually (they're versatile staples), you could run the list with maindecked Counterbalance instead of mana denial. Quirion Dryad is also really cheap these days.

Ive actually wanted to go white splash for a while now, the problem is my school meta, I dont want to totally get owned there by random agro, such as crapstack slivers and elves, but I have noticed that taking out the pyroclasm and bolts actually has a catastrophicly adverse effect on these MU's.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Perhaps you can even make a decent UG list like the GenCon one. Although you should get Stifle and Wastelands eventually (they're versatile staples), you could run the list with maindecked Counterbalance instead of mana denial.

Or run a ton of basic lands and Back to Basics. I think Illisius was working on something like that.

[raharu]

I've asked the 6 "Island" 3 Daze question myself, and in the abstract it seems like a horendous idea, but I've seen him play it, and I can't say I've ever seen a dead Daze sitting in hand (excepting in the late game where it feeds Force).

The deck is pretty much designed to be as cheap as possible while still being threshold and stomping the piss out of random agro/ jank in general, and it does so with almost frightening consistancy. 3 MD 'Clasm is more handy than one would think in a metagame full of randomness.

EDIT: cutting a color would be an absolutely terrible idea here. After cutting a color (which would hamper the agro/ agro-control/ everything MU in our "metagame"), you would either loose your secondary removal/ reach, and your board sweep, which would ruin the deck. Without white you lose Mystic Enforcer and Swords to Plowshares, which would cripple the deck as well. When running 8 "any-color" lands, why worry about the manabase. The manabase as it stands is fine, just fine, and the deck is superbly armored against Stifle on a fetch, becaue the deck runs 4 fetches.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Or run a ton of basic lands and Back to Basics. I think Illisius was working on something like that.

Thats an interesting idea.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6693&page=10#190) is a link to that post for B2B thresh. Not sure if anything came of it though.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6693&page=10#190) is a link to that post for B2B thresh. Not sure if anything came of it though.

I think I'll do some looking into that, especially once I try to attend some local tournaments, the main problem being I cant find any. Literally, zero. However, I would still like to try and tinker with the splash build since my main objective as of now is to get as close as I can to the strength of white or red splash thresh without the massive cost.

[Media314r8]

Having consistancy in your mana is important, as is not taking 1 pain every time you tap them. I would suggest a three (or two) color manabase, and of the available tri-color combinations, I'd wager UGB would be the cheapest. Bob can provide card advantage, and works well with the counterbalance-top MD strategy. Black also has many cheap, efficient removal spells and a good finisher in Tombstalker, which can even shrink opposing goyfs. perhaps you could model the deck as a mix between UGB thresh and faerie stompy. The rav and Lorwyn Duals should hurt your pocketbook less than the revised duals, but if you do plan on getting into legacy, you will need duals and fetches at some point.

//Lands// (17) $120 (not ideal, but compare to the 300-400 thresh manabase.
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta (you should be able to pick up a set for about 60, and you will probably use these in every deck you build from now on)
4 Secluded Glen
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool

//Spells// (25) (about $40 since you allready have the forces)
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Diving top
4 Smother
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle (with jitte in the deck (flyers) you need a way to kill deed, and since you sprites counter cheap spells, stile will help with your combo MU)
3 jitte

//Creatures// (18) ~$40 as you have the goyf
1 Goyf (try to pick up more in trade, as it's the best guy in the deck)
4 dark confidant
3 cloud of faeries (replace with mongoose when you have the manabase to support turn 1 goose)
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Tombstalker
4 Spellstutter Sprite (amazingly relevant in legacy, going turn two cloud, go, then counter goyf with a spelstutter is insane.) (theese become goyfs when you get the funds/ trade for/borrow them)

And you have yourself a budget thresh deck for about $200. Seems decent, and if you like how it feels, you can spend the extra $200-$300 to get the ideal manabase

[Internet Hate Machine]

Having consistancy in your mana is important, as is not taking 1 pain every time you tap them. I would suggest a three (or two) color manabase, and of the available tri-color combinations, I'd wager UGB would be the cheapest. Bob can provide card advantage, and works well with the counterbalance-top MD strategy. Black also has many cheap, efficient removal spells and a good finisher in Tombstalker, which can even shrink opposing goyfs. perhaps you could model the deck as a mix between UGB thresh and faerie stompy. The rav and Lorwyn Duals should hurt your pocketbook less than the revised duals, but if you do plan on getting into legacy, you will need duals and fetches at some point.

Well, in all honesty that IS the biggest problem with the current manabase. I can usually finish the game without too much tapping of city of brass or gemstone mines dying, but the dreaded City of Brass clump can ruin games. I normally try to counteract this by using some handy predicting and cantripping to make them GTFO, but I still need my other lands. It's a rather bad situation albeit a rare one in my current testing of the deck, still I would say that this deck plays a good deal differently than the optimized list will. I'm pretty much resigned to eventually getting duals, but I would rather not wait centurys to play a deck I really do enjoy playing.

@your list. Looks interesting, I think Ill do some toying with it on MWS and get a feel for it to see if I like it or not. Its still alot of money I would be sinking into it so it'll be a while before I can try such radical changes anyway.

EDIT: Another alternative I was testing in the manabase was Shimmering Grotto. At first glance it appears to be a terrible card, but I ran the deck off of it for a pretty long time, and in fact, the little mana converter land actually did wonders. After I got city of brass though, I found the speed it yeilded over the grotto to be worth the extra few damage I would take in the average game, so I cut the grotto for brass.

[Thehunter820]

Just a thought since no one likes daze you might trying running Evasive Action

[Internet Hate Machine]

Just a thought since no one likes daze you might trying running Evasive Action

No, I have too many non basic lands for that to be effective, if I was going for that kind of alternative I would probably go with force spike to be honest, but if daze became a real problem for me I would just place in the counterbalances maindeck and cut the dazes. That would allow me to keep all of my removal arsenal.

[Mental]

Just a thought since no one likes daze you might trying running Evasive Action

Howabout Spell Snare?

[Internet Hate Machine]

Howabout Spell Snare?

That is another option I was considering as well. Its not too good in my current metagame however.

[Mental]

That is another option I was considering as well. Its not too good in my current metagame however.

In that case, I'd go with Media's build. Or just fucking make Goyf Sligh - You could probably do it for $250, and the deck is very strong.
If you are sticking with this concept, you're going to be in trouble since you won't have the aggro power of normal Thresh. Therefore I'd try something controllish. Focus on counterbalance and run plenty of answers to Goyf.

[Internet Hate Machine]

In that case, I'd go with Media's build. Or just fucking make Goyf Sligh - You could probably do it for $250, and the deck is very strong.
If you are sticking with this concept, you're going to be in trouble since you won't have the aggro power of normal Thresh. Therefore I'd try something controllish. Focus on counterbalance and run plenty of answers to Goyf.

In fact that's exactly what I am trying to pull off. I don't have all the aggro power, so my main goal is to keep control of the game while I establish an agressive board. Now, from what I can gather from my MWS testing, it isnt TOO awefully slow (stacked against normal thresh lists), but the need for mass removal in my current meta is really due to the need for more control. Now I can pretty much adapt my build to any color in the current configuration, and black may or may not be an optimal choice in the local tournament metagame. A huge problem, however, is I have no idea what that metagame consists of, so some trial and error may be in order.

[Mental]

In that case, before you build this deck you should go to a local tournament and just scope out the meta. So you don't blow tons of cash on shit.

[Thehunter820]

No, I have too many non basic lands for that to be effective, if I was going for that kind of alternative I would probably go with force spike to be honest, but if daze became a real problem for me I would just place in the counterbalances maindeck and cut the dazes. That would allow me to keep all of my removal arsenal.

Oh didnt see your complete mana base, alright well i'll see if i can come up with cost affordable answers and let you know at school.

[Internet Hate Machine]

In that case, before you build this deck you should go to a local tournament and just scope out the meta. So you don't blow tons of cash on shit.

Well, the opening list I posted is my current one, in case you didnt know, but yea generally that is my plan. I really want to innovate this thing and just keep improving deck wise and in my general play skill, right up until I can finish it out as an optimized list.

[raharu]

I've found from my testing of agro-control decks with black in them that it's a sub-optimal color choice (in out "metagame") unless you have a removal suite like 4 StP, 3 Smother, a few other choice removal, and big black fatties (Tombstalker) that no-one can handle them. I wouldn't go for the black version, but that's just my evaluation from your cards on hand and the way the deck needs to play. Nimble Mongoose is golden, and I can't see cutting even one in our area. Maybe 4c bw thresh is the way to go, with 3x Mystic Enforcers and Smother/ Ghastly Demise as your secondary removal, with the room from Pyroclasm going to more control (Maindeck CounterTop and Counterspell??). The lack of sweep is coing to hurt you though, if you decide to go bw. I would go Ugw with Cataclysm like we've talked about, with more Enforcers.

[Internet Hate Machine]

I've found from my testing of agro-control decks with black in them that it's a sub-optimal color choice (in out "metagame") unless you have a removal suite like 4 StP, 3 Smother, a few other choice removal, and big black fatties (Tombstalker) that no-one can handle them. I wouldn't go for the black version, but that's just my evaluation from your cards on hand and the way the deck needs to play. Nimble Mongoose is golden, and I can't see cutting even one in our area. Maybe 4c bw thresh is the way to go, with 3x Mystic Enforcers and Smother/ Ghastly Demise as your secondary removal, with the room from Pyroclasm going to more control (Maindeck CounterTop and Counterspell??). The lack of sweep is coing to hurt you though, if you decide to go bw. I would go Ugw with Cataclysm like we've talked about, with more Enforcers.

If I opted for the black build I would go for it exclusively for the tournament scene. The current build is essentially perfect for the local meta. If I decided to go with a white only build, however, I think wrath of god MAY be a more suitable sweeper. It may require some proxy testing, but I dont intend on dropping a color (locally) for some time.

[raharu]

I'm not so sure that black wouldn't be good locally, I'm just saying that th cards required wouldn't be worth going out of your way to buy (I would lend you my Confidants to test with, but everyone know what happened to my SDT's after I let you test with them...).

[Internet Hate Machine]

I'm not so sure that black wouldn't be good locally, I'm just saying that th cards required wouldn't be worth going out of your way to buy (I would lend you my Confidants to test with, but everyone know what happened to my SDT's after I let you test with them...).

I really dont like black locally. Too much random junk that discard/black removal really does nothing against. My real objective would probably be to SEE the metroplex metagame, but to that note, good luck to me on finding any tournaments. Assuming the meta you told me about a while back, raharu, with plenty of stax and landstill, I would say I definately want trygon predators, grips, and armageddons in the board, or possibly some of those things maindecked if the situation calls for it. As for changing up the maindeck, I may try something along these lines.

Nimble mongoose x4
werebear x3
tarmogoyf x1
mystic enforcer x3

swords to plowshares x4
Lightning bolt x3
pyroclasm x3

Ponder x4
serum visions x4
predict x4
Senseis Divining top x2
portent x1 (as a fifth ponder)

Force of will x4
counterbalance x3

City of brass x4
Gemstone mine x4
terramorphic expanse x4
Island x2
plains x1
mountain x1
forest x1

With a sideboard of say...

4x or 3x armageddon
3x trygon predator
4x krosan grip

And then some number of EE, Blood Moon, or Needle, as they all seem good, but I dont know which one(s) would be best for the metroplex tournament metagame.

I'm still not sure of the switching daze for counterbalance, but on paper it seems solid, especially since I probably do need room for counterbalance mainboard, and that allows me to keep my random agro stomping removal package mainboarded.

[raharu]

On a side note, discard eats a hole in the local meta, because it's just 2 more threats that don't hit the board (in regards to Hymn). Not for your current deck, it's just validationg a point. Really, the best opion is getting counterTop out fast so you don't have to waste hardcounters on jank, that or find a way to run less removal for more control that would do the same thing (control janky creatures).

[Internet Hate Machine]

On a side note, discard eats a hole in the local meta, because it's just 2 more threats that don't hit the board (in regards to Hymn). Not for your current deck, it's just validationg a point. Really, the best opion is getting counterTop out fast so you don't have to waste hardcounters on jank, that or find a way to run less removal for more control that would do the same thing (control janky creatures).

I have to disagree there, card quality in our meta is so bad that discard is litterally nullified. Most of the "painful" plays you see dont come until they are topdecking anyway. A good % of the decks are overmana'd so hymm has a decent 1/3 chance of hitting a land or two, thoughtsieze is far out of price range and with so many creature heavy decks more removal is over 9000% better than duress.

Though the countertop point I agree with, I really think Counterbalance is starting to look pretty hot in the daze slot, even in our meta, so I really cant wait until I can afford to purchase it.

[Thehunter820]

I have to disagree there, card quality in our meta is so bad that discard is litterally nullified. Most of the "painful" plays you see dont come until they are topdecking anyway. A good % of the decks are overmana'd so hymm has a decent 1/3 chance of hitting a land or two, thoughtsieze is far out of price range and with so many creature heavy decks more removal is over 9000% better than duress.

Though the countertop point I agree with, I really think Counterbalance is starting to look pretty hot in the daze slot, even in our meta, so I really cant wait until I can afford to purchase it.

Yeah seriously, our meta (the school one anyways) is so bad discard doesnt really do much for you, what are you gonna get them to discard, Krosan Cloudscraper? Coat of arms? seriously discard isnt gonna help you all that much, there's like 4 decent threats and neither one are gonna get damaged much by discard unless that's like all you're doing.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How often do you have to sac Gemstone Mine because it runs out of counters? Im asking because the new version with CounterTop is going to be even more mana hungry and Mine is going to die on you more often. I was thinking you could drop the mines, drop a color and play painlands or other "dual" lands like Nimbus Maze. They fulfill the role of color fixing and dont disappear on you like Mine can.

Also you might could consider adding another Portent or two to give you more Shuffle effects for your top.

[raharu]

Gemstone Mine shouldn't be too much dissynergy with the countertop version of the deck, seeing as you could just add in a few more basics and call it good. Really, the deck runs more on basics than anything else, because you want your solid sources, and you won't hesitate to grab a basic from a Terramorphic Expanse (christ I hate CiPT) instead of playing a Mine or City, and when you cantrip you generally get the basics over your "rainbow" lands.

[GiantGrowth]

Gemstone Mine shouldn't be too much dissynergy with the countertop version of the deck, seeing as you could just add in a few more basics and call it good. Really, the deck runs more on basics than anything else, because yo sant your solid sources, and you won't hesitate to grab a basic from a Terramorphic Expanse (christ I hate CiPT) instead of playing a Mine or City, and when you cantrip you generally get the basics over your "rainbow" lands.

I don't know about that, the main reason he has no color problems when I've seen him play, is because he can go for that last counter on mine, or that damage from CoB in a fix where he would normally be in trouble.

[raharu]

I don't know about that, the main reason he has no color problems when I've seen him play, is because he can go for that last counter on mine, or that damage from CoB in a fix where he would normally be in trouble.

True, but with 2 more basics to support CounterTop, is the color selection really going to hurt, especially if they are Islands/ Forests (as they presumeably will be)? I would think not.

[Happy Gilmore]

Havn't we discussed this? Budget Thresh is strictly worse then Powered Thresh end of story. Do you really want to waste an entry fee by entering a deck that is budget simply for the sake of being budget? Why not play a good deck that is inexpensive to make?

[raharu]

Havn't we discussed this? Budget Thresh is strictly worse then Powered Thresh end of story. Do you really want to waste an entry fee by entering a deck that is budget simply for the sake of being budget? Why not play a good deck that is inexpensive to make?

Making it budget for budget's sake is not the point. The deck is basicly ghetto thresh, and it's quite good, in all verity. It simply forces you to play a tighter game when being used competitively. The reasoning behind the thread is that Internet Hate Machine is broke, wants a good deck to play in a good metagame (Dallas rofl, I hate living in Texas), and would rather play a good agro-control deck. Is it too much to ask that you don't hate on the poor (before you yell Jordan, you know I'm poor to, I just sell more drugs that you do ^_^). At any rate, An idea hit me today. Since the deck is more controling, why not try a few Mother of Runes in a creature slot? Maybe something like this:

Nimble Mongoose x4
Meddling Mage x3
Mystic Enforcer x3

and maybe some Werebear or whatever you want in there as well (or GiantGrowth's one of 'Goyf :tongue:). Thoughts?

[Internet Hate Machine]

Havn't we discussed this? Budget Thresh is strictly worse then Powered Thresh end of story. Do you really want to waste an entry fee by entering a deck that is budget simply for the sake of being budget? Why not play a good deck that is inexpensive to make?

Frankly I haven't seen it discussed. Additionally, it can be worse than powered thresh, I assumed that was a given, BUT that doesnt mean it has to lose to every established deck, and with the proper sideboarding I believe I can handle it competently in a tournament scene. I wouldnt be wasting an entry fee either, I play magic strictly for fun, but in casual there is NO competitive spirit to the game. If I were to enter a tournament, it would be strictly for a few enjoyable games against other competent players, rather than the auto win matches against people who play casual decks. Frankly, winning every game you play by a mile simply is not enjoyable. I have no illusions about winning a tournament, but a few good games and maybe a few wins would be nice. Any "good deck" that is realatively inexpensive is still far out of my price range, or simply something I have no desire nor the experience to play. I created this thread simply to further my current decks development to the best it can possibly be without me having to make back breaking purchases (Which I will, but it seems that wont be for a very, very long time).

[C.P.]

If budget is that much of concern, why not just play UG madness?
It seems a lot better than what you have right now.

Also, if are as good as Roland Chang, you will do really well....:wink:

Well, even that deck will play Goyfs so some update will be necessary.

[Media314r8]

If budget is that much of concern, why not just play UG madness?

I would tend to agree.

3/4 Colors in a deck with goyf + budget = not a combo.

Perhaps in two color madness you could get away with just 4-6 fetches and four tropicals (probably still $200 manabase + $105 for three goyfs) The rest of the cards should be relativly cheap, and you might even get away with running fewer fetches/duals if you run looter il-kor to filter.

[Internet Hate Machine]

I would tend to agree.

3/4 Colors in a deck with goyf + budget = not a combo.

Perhaps in two color madness you could get away with just 4-6 fetches and four tropicals (probably still $200 manabase + $105 for three goyfs) The rest of the cards should be relativly cheap, and you might even get away with running fewer fetches/duals if you run looter il-kor to filter.

Thats still far out of my range. Im playing the deck I listed because its the deck I have. In fact it contains almost my entire collection of mtg. It has evolved over the years to what it is, but AT MAX I am limited to $20 purchases at the moment. I came to the source because I thought if anyone could give me a fighting chance it was you guys. The list looks understandably shakey but please understand it does work ALOT better than it seems.

EDIT: Four colors is also a meta choice, for a tournament I would probably drop the weaker splash for more consistancy.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What "dual lands" do you have available to you? I was thinking that if you play some pain lands you would be better off than with Gemstone in the long run. I made up a list for this in class today because I was bored and I think that making a budget thresh is kind of interesting problem. It involves dropping one color though, which I highly recommend anyway.

1x Tarmogoyf :D
4x Mongoose
4x Quirion Dryad - Cheap and a solid choice if you dont have Tarmogoyf
2x Mystic Enforcer - solid, might be harder to cast here since your off colors are going to be squeezed already.

3x Counterbalance- Countertop should be within your budget.
2x Sensei's Awesome Top - only 2 because you don't have many shuffle effects so multiples would mean a dead draw more often than before.

4x Force of Will - You said you had these right?
3x Spell Snare - You dont have Daze available so you need some other cheap form of countermagic. Spell Snare isnt really a replacement but you need something.
4x Swords to Plow

8x Portent - A cantrip and a shuffle effect in one, sounds right up your alley. Good thing you can play 8.
3x Brainstorm - Ok you cant play 4, but I think you can still fit in 2-3 BS in the deck. The card is still crazy powerful even if used unconventionally.
3x Predict - a solid inclusion with 11 cards that set it up. If you feel you arent reaching threshold fast enough then you could try Mental Note *shudders*

(19x Lands - I wouldnt run less than 18 but I thought 19 would be some good for color fixing)
4x Terramorphic Expanse - 4 more shuffle effects. Yay.
3x Island
2x Forest
1x Plains

4x City of Brass - 4 are probably still necessary to fix your mana base.
3x Yavimaya Coast - Painlands dont die on you like Gemstone Mine can. This is probably your best solution short of Fetches and Shocklands
2x Adarkar Wastes - Ditto


For the side I was thinking Choke would be hilarious as you only have 3 Islands. Tormod's Crypts are cheap as are BEB's. A couple Engineered Explosives are well worth the investment.

Anyway, I would do something like that. You could also go the red splash by replacing Wastes with Shivan Oasis and Bolts for StP. Unfortunately, Fledgling Dragon is RR so it would be difficult to replace Mystic Enforcer. Your manabase is already stretched as it is.

Good luck.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Theres some interesting advice, I like the quirion dryad idea as it can grow larger than goyf. Honestly, I like dryad better than werebear in the long run, I already have a playset, the main reason I switched was an abundance of decks with burn as their main creature hate in my current meta, which made werebear the stronger choice. I must ask what are your thoughts on Jotun Grunt? Ill have to try more portents over serum visions, I think four predict is the way to go though, I have been running four and loving it, so Im going to stick to that. I like spell snare as its just always useful in the current legacy meta and probably my current one too. I was planning a 3/2 split of CB top from the start, so I agree whole heartedly there. Taking red out im going to need the EE's, but painland I am still unsure about. I COULD pull off a small number (3 or 2) of undiscovered paradise, just based on the way the deck runs, but as of yet gemstones dying hasnt been a real issue, and with all those pain lands I could run out of life faster than I want to, all of it seems to be worth testing though. For my next purchase I am going to be picking up:
4x undiscovered paradise (its cheap and I like to have playsets)
4x spell snare
4x counterbalance
1x enforcer (Maybe) I want to test having a third
and maybe some of the cheaper sideboard cards. EE will have to wait as it is around $7 and 2-3 of those is a whole purchase for me.

EDIT: For reference my current decklist is the one in the first post.

[jamest]

This is an interesting topic, and it even has relevance outside of budget considerations, because Blood Moon is becoming a big factor. Browsing at what you have available, this is what I would play:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 City of Brass
8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose

I'd cut Gemstone Mine, because this deck tries to cast a lot of spells. I'd recommend running a manabase with a lot of Islands. It is really important to have access to blue, because your cantrips will then help you find the other colors and anything else you need. Plus, running lots of Islands helps Daze. I wouldn't put Undiscovered Paradise into this deck. The drawback is pretty heavy. Also, I think you should only go with three colors, not four, because you don't have access to fetches and duals. In the above list, I have white as the third color, but red is also solid, depending on your meta. In a Moon heavy meta, this is not that far from what I'd play. The CB/Top combo can also be more metagame specific, since sometimes it can be pretty weak or should go in the SB instead. Another direction is to make the deck more aggro, -4 CB -3 Top +3 Enforcer/Dryad/etc + 4 Brainstorm. You actually have 12 shuffle effects in Expanse, Ponder, and Portent.

[chokin]

This is an interesting topic, and it even has relevance outside of budget considerations, because Blood Moon is becoming a big factor. Browsing at what you have available, this is what I would play:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 City of Brass
8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose

I'd cut Gemstone Mine, because this deck tries to cast a lot of spells. I'd recommend running a manabase with a lot of Islands. It is really important to have access to blue, because your cantrips will then help you find the other colors and anything else you need. Plus, running lots of Islands helps Daze. I wouldn't put Undiscovered Paradise into this deck. The drawback is pretty heavy. Also, I think you should only go with three colors, not four, because you don't have access to fetches and duals. In the above list, I have white as the third color, but red is also solid, depending on your meta. In a Moon heavy meta, this is not that far from what I'd play. The CB/Top combo is more metagame specific, since sometimes it can be pretty weak or should go in the SB instead. Another direction is to make the deck more aggro, -4 CB -3 Top +3 Enforcer/Dryad/etc + 4 Brainstorm. You actually have 12 shuffle effects in Expanse, Ponder, and Portent.

Brainstorm is a must here. And City deals damage always. Breeding Pools where I'm at cost like 8 dollars, and are a serious upgrade. Drop Goyf, Drop City, add 3 Pools and use more Enforcers or some other fat. Spell Snare will help fight opposing Goyfs and Engineered Explosives does the same.

[jamest]

Brainstorm is a must here.
I thought about this, and I agree. There's enough shuffle effects in the deck to support it. Maybe -1 CB -1 Enforcer -2 Serum Visions +4 Brainstorm.


And City deals damage always. Breeding Pools where I'm at cost like 8 dollars, and are a serious upgrade.
I don't know. City still gives you 3 colors, in a deck that really needs the color fixing. Plus, I'm assuming BP is not within the budget.


Drop Goyf
I definitely disagree.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Breeding pool is not in the budget, there are no shops that sell singles around here, so I only have access to online sources. Cheapest I have found in stock is at around $15 per. I DO like the more islands idea though, and if I were to drop the third splash I probably wouldnt need gemstone mine at all, or at the very least could cut the numbers. Goyf is an auto include as long as I have access to it.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

You should just use the old school Mirage fetchlands like Bad River and Flood Plain. Then just purchase 1 Hallowed Fountain and 1 Breeding Pool. That way your list would look something like what I listed below. The only problem with doing this is that you can't Daze or cast anything 1st turn since the Mirage fetchlands come into play tapped, so you can only fetch on your 2nd turn. This also leaves you vulnerable to land destruction. On the upside, they add 4 more lands to your shuffle effects enabling better brainstorms, fix your mana troubles while being relatively cheap, and most importantly contribute to faster threshold.

4 Bad River
2 Flood Plain
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Plains
1 Forest
6 Island

[chokin]

You should just use the old school Mirage fetchlands like Bad River and Flood Plain. Then just purchase 1 Hallowed Fountain and 1 Breeding Pool. That way your list would look something like what I listed below. The only problem with doing this is that you can't Daze or cast anything 1st turn since the Mirage fetchlands come into play tapped, so you can only fetch on your 2nd turn. This also leaves you vulnerable to land destruction. On the upside, they add 4 more lands to your shuffle effects enabling better brainstorms, fix your mana troubles while being relatively cheap, and most importantly contribute to faster threshold.

4 Bad River
2 Flood Plain
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Plains
1 Forest
6 Island

I was going to mention the Mirage fetch like 4 hours ago, but I had to go to work. Only problem is that you can't Daze turn 1...which is the only way that Expanse is better. The upside is you can get duals through Mirage fetch.

I'm still thinking about which would be better...the white or red splash. Splashing red means more removal(though often not as efficient as STP), but it gives us the option to go more aggro than the white version. If we were to take the deck into a red direction, I think it could look ok as:

17 Lands
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Flood Plain
1 Mountain
1 Forest
5 Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents

12 Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
2 Quirion Dryad
1 Tarmogoyf (as you get more Goyf, drop Dryads or Werebears)

33 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Broken Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict

Of course the Rav duals are ideals for budget. Merlin-Games.com has Steam Vents for 8, Hallowed Fountain for 10, and StrikeZoneOnline.com have Breeding Pool for 10. That's a steal compared to the 15 you were going to pay. And eBay usually has random good deals on 4 ofs( I saw 4 Steam Vents for like $20 or so with an hour...4 Breeding Pool for $40...4 Hallowed Fountain for $30)

Legacy is a pretty expensive format. If you don't want to spend so much, I really suggest going for UG Madness since it'll eventually lead you to getting Tropical Islands(and Goyfs) and the transition to UG Thresh will be easy, and you can splash from there.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

I was going to mention the Mirage fetch like 4 hours ago, but I had to go to work. Only problem is that you can't Daze turn 1...which is the only way that Expanse is better. The upside is you can get duals through Mirage fetch.


I did mention the drawbacks to the Mirage fetchlands already. However, I think they add more consistency to the deck, which is probably far more important than always landing a turn 1 daze, which you can't even guarantee will be in your opening hand.

If I were doing UGr thresh I would probably do something like this:

LANDS
4 Bad River
2 Flood Plain
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Plains
1 Forest
6 Island

CREATURES
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf

ARTIFACTS
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter

ENCHANTMENTS
3 Counterbalance

SPELLS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet or Fire//Ice

Isochron Scepter is cheaper than Fledgling Dragon, not to mention colorless, and he can't even guarantee that he will have the two reds required to cast Fledgling Dragon. I think Isochron is better than having 12 creatures, all without evasion.

I'd probably use Quirion Dryad as a four of or a zero of since you really just want to see it early game. Once you've reached threshold, Werebear or Nimble Mongoose are likely to be better draws.

The benefit of Magma Jet is that it plays much better with Top and Predict. However, Fire//Ice pitches to Force of Will, sometimes trades 2 for 1, and can even tap an opposing Tarmogoyf or Mystic Enforcer to let your guys through and draws you a card at the same time! This is good since you have no creatures with evasion. Both cards have their benefits and I think it's up to personal preference.


Legacy is a pretty expensive format. If you don't want to spend so much, I really suggest going for UG Madness since it'll eventually lead you to getting Tropical Islands(and Goyfs) and the transition to UG Thresh will be easy, and you can splash from there.

Pretty much! Spend $200+ on lands, 100+ on Force of Wills, then $20 on the rest of the deck. Wonderful.

[chokin]

I did mention the drawbacks to the Mirage fetchlands already. However, I think they add more consistency to the deck, which is probably far more important than always landing a turn 1 daze, which you can't even guarantee will be in your opening hand.

If I were doing UGr thresh I would probably do something like this:

LANDS
4 Bad River
2 Flood Plain
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Plains
1 Forest
6 Island

CREATURES
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf

ARTIFACTS
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter

ENCHANTMENTS
3 Counterbalance

SPELLS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet or Fire//Ice

Isochron Scepter is cheaper than Fledgling Dragon, not to mention colorless, and he can't even guarantee that he will have the two reds required to cast Fledgling Dragon. I think Isochron is better than having 12 creatures, all without evasion.

I'd probably use Quirion Dryad as a four of or a zero of since you really just want to see it early game. Once you've reached threshold, Werebear or Nimble Mongoose are likely to be better draws.

The benefit of Magma Jet is that it plays much better with Top and Predict. However, Fire//Ice pitches to Force of Will, sometimes trades 2 for 1, and can even tap an opposing Tarmogoyf or Mystic Enforcer to let your guys through and draws you a card at the same time! This is good since you have no creatures with evasion. Both cards have their benefits and I think it's up to personal preference.

Pretty much! Spend $200+ on lands, 100+ on Force of Wills, then $20 on the rest of the deck. Wonderful.

Your list looks pretty good. I don't like Scepter. I think that most creatures will do more, are less mana intensive(forgetting Top are we?). Well, Dragon could be mana intensive, but without pumps, a 5/5 is nothing to laugh at.

Dryad is a very nice budget option since the player lacks fetches, they'll be spending more time cantripping to get there. So an early Dryad while trying to achieve Threshold gives you a fat Dryad. Granted she isn't so good in the late game, if you can keep her out there long enough to get Thresh, she should be bigger than most Goyfs. Each burn spell tacks on another counter.

You mentioned why Fire//Ice is good, but I think it can be looked at as tech against nasty fat(Goyf!) or as a cantrip in a tight situation. Jet is cool, but I like the flexibility of Fire//Ice. Removal or combat trick with a draw versus removal with a draw setup. Fire can also pick off one or two x/1's or hit one and your opponent.

Normal UGr Thresh's manabase is expensive. 8 Fetch is like 100...8 Duals will cost like 160-240...Goyfs are like 150-180 a set...Forces are like 70-100...not to mention a board with some Needles could get you around another 50 or so. That's like 600 for UGr Thresh. White is worse since Mage is like 10-18 each.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

Your list looks pretty good. I don't like Scepter. I think that most creatures will do more, are less mana intensive(forgetting Top are we?). Well, Dragon could be mana intensive, but without pumps, a 5/5 is nothing to laugh at.

Yeah, sometimes I do forget that Scepter costs 2 to activate. While I would prefer Fledgling Dragon, I still do not think this budget thresh has the mana base to run it.



Dryad is a very nice budget option since the player lacks fetches, they'll be spending more time cantripping to get there. So an early Dryad while trying to achieve Threshold gives you a fat Dryad. Granted she isn't so good in the late game, if you can keep her out there long enough to get Thresh, she should be bigger than most Goyfs. Each burn spell tacks on another counter.

Again, this is why I think Dryad should be a 4 of or not included at all. You really just want to see Dryad early game.



You mentioned why Fire//Ice is good, but I think it can be looked at as tech against nasty fat(Goyf!) or as a cantrip in a tight situation. Jet is cool, but I like the flexibility of Fire//Ice. Removal or combat trick with a draw versus removal with a draw setup. Fire can also pick off one or two x/1's or hit one and your opponent.

Well, I forgot to mention that Magma Jet also plays well with Counterbalance. In an emergency, you can always just Jet the other player to set up your Counterbalance. I also took into consideration that Magma Jet on Scepter is just significantly better than Fire//Ice on Scepter in most situations. I like both and they both have their situational uses, I think this all depends on the player's local meta. I personally use Fire//Ice at the moment.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Theres some interesting advice, I like the quirion dryad idea as it can grow larger than goyf. Honestly, I like dryad better than werebear in the long run, I already have a playset, the main reason I switched was an abundance of decks with burn as their main creature hate in my current meta, which made werebear the stronger choice. I must ask what are your thoughts on Jotun Grunt? Ill have to try more portents over serum visions, I think four predict is the way to go though, I have been running four and loving it, so Im going to stick to that. I like spell snare as its just always useful in the current legacy meta and probably my current one too. I was planning a 3/2 split of CB top from the start, so I agree whole heartedly there. Taking red out im going to need the EE's, but painland I am still unsure about. I COULD pull off a small number (3 or 2) of undiscovered paradise, just based on the way the deck runs, but as of yet gemstones dying hasnt been a real issue, and with all those pain lands I could run out of life faster than I want to, all of it seems to be worth testing though.

I think that you can play Jotun Grunt along side Goyf much better than you can with 6+ threshhold creatures. Outside of a shitty sideboard option I wouldnt really give it much consideration.

4 Predict is fine. I was gonna put 4 but I only had 3 slots left in the list.



For my next purchase I am going to be picking up:
4x undiscovered paradise (its cheap and I like to have playsets)
4x spell snare
4x counterbalance
1x enforcer (Maybe) I want to test having a third
and maybe some of the cheaper sideboard cards. EE will have to wait as it is around $7 and 2-3 of those is a whole purchase for me.


Dont waste your money on 4 Undiscovered Paradise. The most any deck can afford to run is 2 and youll spoil your budget with bum purchases. If it's 4 or 0 I'd go with 0. Try to test play with proxies before buying anything so you dont end up wasting money on cards you dont need. The rest of those cards seem solid. Even if you dont use 3 Enforcer main you could still consider #3 for the sideboard.

EDIT: be sure to pick up BEB/Hydroblast ASAP if you dont have them. They are well worth the $.50 you will pay for a playset.


This is an interesting topic, and it even has relevance outside of budget considerations, because Blood Moon is becoming a big factor. Browsing at what you have available, this is what I would play:

Or you go the red splash and play Blood Moon :cool:

[chokin]

I think that you can play Jotun Grunt along side Goyf much better than you can with 6+ threshhold creatures. Outside of a shitty sideboard option I wouldnt really give it much consideration.

4 Predict is fine. I was gonna put 4 but I only had 3 slots left in the list.



Dont waste your money on 4 Undiscovered Paradise. The most any deck can afford to run is 2 and youll spoil your budget with bum purchases. Try to test play with proxies before buying anything so you dont end up wasting money on cards you dont need. The rest of those cards seem solid. Even if you dont use 3 Enforcer main you could still consider #3 for the sideboard.



Or you go the splash red and play Blood Moon :cool:

Undiscovered Paradise is bad for the deck in many ways. City of Brass is much better. Yavimaya Coast and Adarkar Wastes/Shivan Reef are a lot better than that, but take up more slots.

Grunt is meh.

3 Predict is fine. It provides some nice card advantage and deals with those pesky extra Tops.


EDIT: Wow when I said "drop Goyf", I thought he hadn't bought the deck. So I was saying that, I meant use the money to help get a bigger shell for the deck (ideally fetch or a couple duals). I didn't realize he already had one. :X I looked back and out of nowhere realized he already had Goyf. That was retarded.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Ok, after all that reading, heres just a state of where I have the deck right now, and what cards I already own/am ordering today.

I have a playset of dryads already, since I used them in the old GRO list, and I have a playset of nd have used all of the following non-basic lands:
Terramorphic expanse
city of brass
gemstone mine
shimmering grotto

Additionally though you have provided some strong opinions against it I want to try out two undiscovered paradises or possibly just two mines since those do tend to provide outs in a fix (giving me that one extra colored mana I need). I do agree that more than 2 undiscovered paradise is always bad though as I can imagine that running into a clump of those is quite possibly worse than a clump of cities.

Im going to be picking up 3 counterbalance, but another top is too much atm, a mystic enforcer, BEB/Hydroblast since they are very affordable, and spell snares.

Even at just 8-10 a peice shock lands are still out of budget at the moment. As to pain lands, these are probably not an option. I run a tight game life wise as it is against agressive decks with city of brass by itself, I dont need more risk of getting jumbled up with nothing but pain, which is really the reason for mines inclusion in the first place. I agree that more islands is a good idea. Without shocklands I dont see much use for the old school fetches.

The problem is this: if I cut red, I lose the extra removal and sweep that let me keep control over the "swarm aggro" decks I tend to play against in my meta, and if I cut white, I lose the power to answer game ending threats effectively, one I very much need with my slower clock, as well as my effective finisher when my ground forces cant get through. Perhaps many of these questions would be answered with effective sideboarding, or perhaps I should just keep two readily interchangable lists, one for the possible tournament meta and one for the local area meta?

[jamest]

Try to test play with proxies before buying anything so you dont end up wasting money on cards you dont need.
Really good advice, especially since you're on a budget.


Im going to be picking up 3 counterbalance, but another top is too much atm, a mystic enforcer, BEB/Hydroblast since they are very affordable, and spell snares.
To repeat, test first, then buy. A basic land with "Black Lotus" written in marker ink is a lot cheaper than the real thing. I'd also recommend using MWS or a similar program.


Additionally though you have provided some strong opinions against it I want to try out two undiscovered paradises or possibly just two mines since those do tend to provide outs in a fix (giving me that one extra colored mana I need). I do agree that more than 2 undiscovered paradise is always bad though as I can imagine that running into a clump of those is quite possibly worse than a clump of cities.
I'll throw Treva's Ruins into the discussion, though I probably don't recommend it.


The problem is this: if I cut red, I lose the extra removal and sweep that let me keep control over the "swarm aggro" decks I tend to play against in my meta, and if I cut white, I lose the power to answer game ending threats effectively, one I very much need with my slower clock, as well as my effective finisher when my ground forces cant get through. Perhaps many of these questions would be answered with effective sideboarding, or perhaps I should just keep two readily interchangable lists, one for the possible tournament meta and one for the local area meta?
If you look at this manabase:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 City of Brass
8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
you can easily switch from white to red by +1 Mountain -1 Plains. So, one option is to have white cards maindeck and red cards (plus a Mountain) in the sideboard.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you look at this manabase:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 City of Brass
8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
you can easily switch from white to red by +1 Mountain -1 Plains. So, one option is to have white cards maindeck and red cards (plus a Mountain) in the sideboard.

I would throw a second Forest in there but I like all those Islands. Makes Daze an option and stuff like B2B/Blood Moon sexier. Turns a weakness, lack of expensive lands, into a strength. Countertop + Blood Moon + a bunch of basics sounds like an interesting strategy and would randomly hose certain decks.

Mock up of a list:

BLT (basic land thresh)

1x Tarmogoyf
4x Mongoose
4x Quirion Dryad/Werebear

3x Counterbalance
2x Sensei's Retarded Top
2x Blood Moon/Back to Basics

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt

7x Portent
4x Brainstorm
3x Predict

4x Terramorphic Expanse
8x Island
2x Forest
1x Mountain

4x City of Brass


4 Pyroclasm
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

As to the OG Fetchlands Im kind of wary of a fetch that can be Wasted. They are still kind of an interesting idea but I have initial reservations.

[chokin]

I think Red will give you a lot more versatility and utility. Pyroclasm is an answer to and x/2 or x/1 creature...meaning it nails opposing Mongeese, Magus of the Moon, Confidant, Meddling Mage(unless it's called), and so on. Also, you can use the burn as extra damage for super cheap. Bolt is like a smack with a Mongoose, Fire//Ice can be used as a 2-for-1(not usually), or as a combat trick. You feel that you're missing late game finishers, when red's removal should keep the board in your favor.

If you wanna stick with white and use some combat tricks, try out Rushing River as a 1-3 of. Ripping 2 blockers or 2 nasty permanents can really throw an opponents tempo off. Especially when they have 2 high cost permanents. It gives you another chance to counter something.

Just some ideas.

[Thehunter820]

Hmm, from playing this deck pretty much once or twice a day, everday, the main threats are Werebear and Mystic Enforcer are usually the killers, the Nimble Mongoose almost always hits the field but rarely is the winning creature, so the enforcer is good, maybe try a 3rd one, and 3 were bears is viable, maybe try 4 were bear 3 mongooses though, also you need to get your counterbalance, and umm I dont think dropping the tarmogoyf is the right thing to do, I think you need to fit more in, it's always a major problem when it hits the field, and as for the manabase, I dont think it'll get much better with out spending a hefty amount, the only things that could make it much better though you alrdy know those :s

[Internet Hate Machine]

Ok so Ive been told to expect a decent amount of armageddon stax, so I would like your opinions what splash this suggests would be optimal, and what are the best sb cards for stax (anything other than grips+predators?)

[ninjabear]

Even if you don't run fetches / shuffling effects, Brainstorm is still *the best* cantrip available. Instant speed, and digging up to 3 cards for 1 mana is always good in my book. You can also "combo" it with other cantrips (Predict, Mental Note). With fetches it just goes nuts and turns into a "poor man Ancestrall Recall".
The really good thing about Brainstorm is that it ups A LOT your chances of seeing the spell that you want at that given moment. So, you need a Pyroclasm for that pesky goblin horde? Or a Swords for that Rakdos Pit Dragon that is chewing at your neck? Up your chances to see that card for only 1 mana!

I would like to add about the Quirion Dryad / Werebear discussion is that Werebear is a *far better* top deck than Quirion Drydad. This deck tends to have a really big control of the early turns, but it can soon run out of cards (though they will be "quality cards"), so a top-decked Dryad will not normally grow much, while a Threshed Bear will find the work already done. Plus the bear can give you mana, useful if facing some recursive Wasteland :)
Anyway, having said that, I think that if you can't get the money for Tarmogoyf (pretty standard :) ), Quirion Dryad is a more than acceptable replacement.

Do you really need to run the fatties? (Mystical Crusader). 1 of is normally more than enough, they tend to clog your hand because you have so little mana that it's somewhat difficult to cast them... and Tarmo/Dryad/Werebear, while inferior overall, are *really* effective.

Anyway, having said that, I realize I'm thinking with Threshold in mind. The only problem I see is that your deck is *really* similar to Threshold, but will never be as effective - lack of fetches, doubles... why not going for another aggro-control deck? UG Madness would be ideal - effective, really cheap, and you already have the expensive cards (FOW). Both decks, Madness and Threshold are similar, but the first tries to sneak cheap fatties into play via the discard engine and the second plans to make their creatures bigger in a moment..... and both pack free counters and some cantrips :) The only expensive cards you would need for a really nice U/G Madness deck would be some fetches (4 would be ok), 1 or 2 Tropicals/Breeding Pools, and the Jittes. Everything else is damn cheap (Aquamoeba, Basking Rootwalla, Arrogant Wurm, Wild Mongrel, Daze, Circular Logic... are all common or uncommon, and not specially expensive!).

[raharu]

NO SIR. Little to no Brainstorm should find a home in this deck at all. Period. I know the deck, I've done the testing, and without fetches, Brainstorm is vastly inferior to Ponder/ Portent in almost every situation (save the instant speed, but you have SDT which easilly fills that role). Ponder digs 4 cards, won't kill your next two draws, and is just better asa cantrip for this deck (with limited shuffle). Personally, I don't see why Brainstorm is so overhyped, but that has little relevance to the deck. With the limited shufle effects here, Brainstom is almost a dead draw that you would rather have replaced with any other good cantrip.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Ok, for starters, please people for the last time don't tell me to play another deck. Heres my reasoning, I ALREADY HAVE this deck, and ANY other deck, especially aggro control, would leave me deckless until I could make a reasonably massive purchase, so I may as well keep building on this until it becomes powered thresh. The issue at hand is simply how to get this thing running as smooth as possible for now.

On to werebear, if it is a much better topdeck, which I whole-heartedly agree with, why does the general consensus seem to be that dryad is the better inclusion?

As for mystic enforcer, I like having two simply for their stalemate breaking ability when I cant get my ground men through, this happens more often than you would think so as of yet the slot has been completely justified with performance.

I will be testing brainstorm as well, since I just received my counterbalances and brainstorm has the strongest synergy with the card of anything short of top, it will be interesting to see how many brainstorm I am able to support on only predict and terramorphics however.

[xsockmonkeyx]

On to werebear, if it is a much better topdeck, which I whole-heartedly agree with, why does the general consensus seem to be that dryad is the better inclusion?

I say fuck general consensus. Find the card that works for you the best and use it. Fortunately, you have 2 strong candidates to choose from.

As to Brainstorm, again I would try to cram in as many as the deck can possibly support, even if it's only a couple.

[raharu]

I say the deck run today with Counterbalance, and I rescind my previous statement that Brainstorm is unwaranted here. Brainstorm is quite waranted, perhaps as a three of, with CounterTop MD. The Predators in the board are quite sexy, and BEB is hot tech, especially seeing as the deck doesn't roll over to DragonStompy after a single resolved Blood Moon. It's an interesting concept for a DS heavy metagame, even for those with "powered" threshold. The four City, four Expanse basics to taste manabase is quite good, facilitates consistent turn one Dazes, and honestly I can presume that shocklands/ painlands are a bad idea (although I wouls sugest some proxy testing, IHM).

To introduce some innovation to the deck now, since we now have some Brainstorms for it, I would sugest testing Hoofprints of the Stag as a two or three of in the board. Discuss.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What does the list look like now?

@Hoofprints - I think it's a solid contender for even the main. The card is only valued at a dollar so it's certainly an option.

Today I was thinking that a few Oblivion Rings might be helpful. They do two things for you. First, they provide more removal and generalized removal for game 1. Second, they give you a 3cc card to play with Counterbalance which the deck currently lacks (I think).

[Internet Hate Machine]

For reference, here is the current list:

MD:
4x nimble mongoose
3x werebear
2x mystic enforcer

4x ponder
4x brainstorm
4x predict
2x sensei's divining top

4x FOW
3x daze
3x counterbalance

4x STP
3x pyroclasm (will be cut from the MD at least in a tourney situation)
2x bolt (probably getting cut soon)

4x city of brass
4x terramorphic expanse
2x undiscovered paradise (getting tested atm)
4x island
1x forest
1x plains
1x mountain

SB:
3x trygon predator
4x krosan grip
4x blue ele. blast
2x rushing river
1x bolt (just filler at the moment)
1x pyroclasm (pretty much filler but I still bring it in in some MUs)

@hoofprints, I have been considering it for a good amount of time now, and I intend on picking some up. It just seems to have too much synergy to ignore.

@oblivion ring, I have three of them, only reason they haven't seen more play is they really arent optimal for my meta right now.

[Internet Hate Machine]

*Update* I think I need either O-ring or rushing river, so Ill be testing them both, Im trying to get a good fast agro match going with a white splash only build. In very limited testing paradise seems OK as a two of, but probably not needed for fixing if I drop red. Since Ill have less fixers Ill probably test hoofprints over enforcer, however I dont like the idea of losing my 4cc card for counterbalance, as that has quite literally saved my ass before, a brainstorm or a top and I can keep myself safe from those game enders like replenish, wrath, or in some instances 'geddon. Right now as I see it the deck operates much more like a straight control in the early game (lacking goyf and duels) and the high blue source count helps with that, so anything that would help me control the game and allow for my slightly longer setup time seems extremely benificial.

[raharu]

I like the current version (the one we talked about over the phone, with 3x Rushing River, 2x O-Ring, with the 4x Brainstorms and all that sideboard jazz). In all honesty I would avoid Engineered Explosives as anything more that a sideboard option for token-combo, or as a 1-2 of in the MD, due to the fact that it pretty much does jack when revealed for Counterbalance. I think that at least 3 Back to Basics should be shoved into the deck somewhere, and Stifles would be good as well (at least for the Solidaridy here). Wait.... Nevermind, I almost said something stupid (Chalice's counters are not a "when this comes into play" effect). We really need something for the Stax Matchup. Does anyone have any sugestions?

[jamest]

Im trying to get a good fast agro match going with a white splash only build
I recommend testing Mental Note. It helps your creatures reach Threshold faster so they can start blocking opposing attackers. MN can also discard two unwanted cards returned by Brainstorm.


2x undiscovered paradise (getting tested atm)
How's this working out?


lacking goyf
You used to have a Goyf (in the first post). What happened?


3x Rushing River
Rushing River sounds really bad. 3cc for a bounce effect is pretty weak by Legacy standards. I think Oblivion Ring and EE are better all-purpose removal cards.


We really need something for the Stax Matchup. Does anyone have any sugestions?
Serenity and Trygon Predator.

[Internet Hate Machine]

To make it quick, I only have one goyf, so outside of it showing up randomly in the earlier game I generally assume Ill be slower.

I like oblivion ring and EE, but it will a long while before I can purchase any EE as they are pretty pricey right now. Im going to test rushing river as it was suggested but beyond that its still a debated slot.

Serenity or grip? Grip seems useful in more situations than the stax matchup, more so than serenity at least, and SB I really only have room for one. (still waiting for a test in the local (tournament) metagame though.)

EDIT: So far I havent had trouble with the two undiscovered paradise, but I havent done much testing so far.

[GiantGrowth]

I like the current version (the one we talked about over the phone, with 3x Rushing River, 2x O-Ring, with the 4x Brainstorms and all that sideboard jazz). In all honesty I would avoid Engineered Explosives as anything more that a sideboard option for token-combo, or as a 1-2 of in the MD, due to the fact that it pretty much does jack when revealed for Counterbalance. I think that at least 3 Back to Basics should be shoved into the deck somewhere, and Stifles would be good as well (at least for the Solidaridy here). Wait.... Nevermind, I almost said something stupid (Chalice's counters are not a "when this comes into play" effect). We really need something for the Stax Matchup. Does anyone have any sugestions?

so your saying that he shouldn't run a 2 of (EE) because it might on the off chance have a usless interaction with a 3 of(CB), if and only if he doesn't have another 3 of(top) in play or any kind of cantrip that re-arranges the top of his library. not to mention the aforementioned 2 of would have to be the top card of his library when he needs a card countered (and doesnt have a hard counter)

you know what else does jack when revealed by counterbalance? lands, should we take those out too?

[raharu]

so your saying that he shouldn't run a 2 of (EE) because it might on the off chance have a usless interaction with a 3 of(CB), if and only if he doesn't have another 3 of(top) in play or any kind of cantrip that re-arranges the top of his library. not to mention the aforementioned 2 of would have to be the top card of his library when he needs a card countered (and doesnt have a hard counter)

you know what else does jack when revealed by counterbalance? lands, should we take those out too?

We have better board control than EE maindeck right now (O. Ring and River), and taking out stuff that does something with CB or dose what River and Ring do as well.

EDIT: Take out the lands?!!!!??? All of them?? How do you expect to counter pacts and Moxen? I thought you would know better than this ^_^

[jamest]

To make it quick, I only have one goyf, so outside of it showing up randomly in the earlier game I generally assume Ill be slower.
+1 Goyf -1 Inferior-Non-Goyf-Card makes your deck better. There's a reason 99% of the decks in Legacy run it.


Serenity or grip? Grip seems useful in more situations than the stax matchup, more so than serenity at least, and SB I really only have room for one. (still waiting for a test in the local (tournament) metagame though.)
Grip is more versatile than Serenity since you play Counterbalance (Top can always save itself). Serenity is better in certain matchups like Stax and Enchantress. So this is a metagame question. I'd add that Oblivion Ring is probably more versatile than Grip.

By the way, don't think of your deck as Budget Thresh. Instead, think of it as Basic-Manabase Thresh. There's some metagame value to the deck you're building.

[GiantGrowth]

-Raharu
all of those that you listed are singular, targeted removal. EE would be a nice replacement for pyroclasm(better accually) something that can hit multiple cards for just one (virtual card advantage anyone?)

-jamest
he is using his goyf, by "lacking goyf", he means lacking the 3 he would need for the full 4.

[raharu]

-Raharu
all of those that you listed are singular, targeted removal. EE would be a nice replacement for pyroclasm(better accually) something that can hit multiple cards for just one (virtual card advantage anyone?)

EE is generally a 2 for one, no? Considering that it's symetrical, it could be a 2 for 3 or a 3 for 2, considering the board state. With one or two counters, EE wipes your creautres, and at three you won't hit much, same Chris' Ronin Houndmasters. What would you rather have?? This or rushing river?

[Thehunter820]

Raharu, I think i'll have to say i'd perfer the Engineered explosives in our meta, not saying that crushing rivers is a bad card, but I think EE would work better for the reasons Giant Growth stated.

[raharu]

How so? It's assured that it will hit your creatures, possibly CB, and not much else. If you haven't noticed, EE won't do much for stax, and if you mean to say they will be good at school, notice how all the srcuby agro deck are resting on a relatively fat curve. Most of our resident Elf deck's maijor threats are at thee and four on the curve. You can EE for one and two all day and not hit much, maybe a few Lanawar Elves. Sure, EE can hit Silhana Ledgewalker, but considering that you can removal Blanchwood armor all day/ not let it resolve, I think we should be fine with a 1/1 on the board, at least until it becomes outclassed by/ blocked by our Mystic Enforcer. I'll conceede that you can hit Promanade tokens, but generally that walks into Force of Will, does it not? In the matches it is going to be good in, it's win more, and in the matches it's going to be bad it, it's relatively symetrical. I would rather have the selection of O. Ring or River all day every day.

[GiantGrowth]

How so? It's assured that it will hit your creatures, possibly CB, and not much else. If you haven't noticed, EE won't do much for stax, and if you mean to say they will be good at school, notice how all the srcuby agro deck are resting on a relatively fat curve. Most of our resident Elf deck's maijor threats are at thee and four on the curve. You can EE for one and two all day and not hit much, maybe a few Lanawar Elves. Sure, EE can hit Silhana Ledgewalker, but considering that you can removal Blanchwood armor all day/ not let it resolve, I think we should be fine with a 1/1 on the board, at least until it becomes outclassed by/ blocked by our Mystic Enforcer. I'll conceede that you can hit Promanade tokens, but generally that walks into Force of Will, does it not? In the matches it is going to be good in, it's win more, and in the matches it's going to be bad it, it's relatively symetrical. I would rather have the selection of O. Ring or River all day every day.

to be honest, I would rather use chain of vapor. but thats beside the point. you know I dont know why im defending EE, I wasnt meaning to say that it needed including, merely that it shouldn't not be included because of CB. if you absolutely HAVE to get whatever it is countered, and you don't have something to stack the top of your lib, who is to say it wouldn't have just been a land anyway, doing the same thing as EE (what i meant by taking out the lands) not trying to say EE needs to be included, just not cast aside so carelessly.

[Internet Hate Machine]

To the EE argument, EE would simply be a maindeck utility card, a one or two of, possibly mainboard. Ultimately, if school mattered at all, (which it doesnt), EE completely hoses my one problematic MU, tylers "slivival" deck, since his ENTIRE curve rests at two, and it still kills vials at one. Still, all these arguments are relatively pointless unless on of you wants to give me $12 (more or less) to pick up a couple of EE.

[raharu]

To be honest, I would rather use Chain of Vapor. but thats beside the point. Not trying to say EE needs to be included, simply that it should not be cast aside so carelessly.

Hmmm... Chain of Vapor? Personally, I like it. I'm not so sure I would run this over River or O. Ring, seeing as the deck has 12 cards in the main and side at 3cc, but I think it has merit somewhere... The tempo exchange is interesting, and it lures your opponent into sacrificing lands. Considering that either way you are up on tempo (considering the low curve of thresh and you get the first bounce), it creates interesting situations, not to mention it takes card of problematic permanents.

I do conceede that I was quick to throw off EE, but I'm not a fan of it in threshold outside of nixing token armies, and if that's the point, Rain of blades/ Pyroclasm (depending on the threat. If you don't see Ichorid, I would go with Rain of Blades, but with City of Brass in the MD, I really don't think it matters much considering the manabase) are more versatile vs. argo, and control doesn't have many permanents, save lands, at any rate.

[raharu]

IHM, I've been thinking about your really retarded MU against RobbieGoblins, and I have an idea. I'm more likely than not going to catch flak for this, but in order to drop red I think you mnay have to play Mental Note as a 3 of in the side board. Without 4x Tarmogoyf, the fast agro MU relies on getting threshold fast enough to drop 'Bears and 'Geese to stop them from attacking so that you can stabilize. Getting big bodies out faster seems key here. The only time I saw you "need" Pyroclasm, it was the turn before you dropped Goose x2, Bear, Enforcer... This sounds strange to me. The only other time you 'clasmed that game was about a turn or two before you would have had threshold.

IHM: Thoughts?

Everyone: Considering that there is not 4x 'Goyf in the deck, is Mental Note a viable inclusion for fixing the retard agro MU?

[Cavius The Great]

Why don't you guys just build U/G Madness? It's significantly cheaper to build and almost as good as regular Thresh (and alot better than budget Thresh).

[xsockmonkeyx]

RTFT, he has been over this many time already.


Mental Note a viable inclusion for fixing the retard agro MU?

Mental Note would be OK, except for the fact that it sucks ass.

[raharu]

Why don't you guys just build U/G Madness? It's significantly cheaper to build and almost as good as regular Thresh (and alot better than budget Thresh).

How about this: because it is nowhere near as good as threshold, and it's not anywhere near being better than this. With a little testing, Fetches and Duals are not that big of a loss. In a deck that needs UUGW to operate, duals are just additional redundancy. Big whoop. Maybe we wouldn't have this problem if you weren't boxed into the whole "OMGZ lulz, you deck aint no fetches and duels!!!" mindset. Dragonstopmy any1? Considering that I have never seen the deck lack the right color (sometimes you may hate the tempo loss of fetched basics CiPT, but it generally won't kill you if you do it right).


Mental Note would be OK, except for the fact that it sucks ass.

I was under the impression that the only reason they cut it was simply because of Tarmogoyf's value of quality over quantity. Maybe I'm wrong, but in earlier tests we have found it to be great for agro. While that was a good, long time ago, I would think the only thing that has changed would be IHM's memory of it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I was under the impression that the only reason they cut it was simply because of Tarmogoyf's value of quality over quantity. Maybe I'm wrong, but in earlier rests we have found it to be great for agro. While that was a good, long time ago, I would think the only thing that has changed would be IHM's memory of it.

Depends on who you ask. I never really played Mental Note in Thresh because I hated it so much and found Predict to be much, much better. I was always of the philosophy that your cantrips were there to find the cards you need, and hey, if you get threshold then it's a bonus. When Tarmogoyf was printed, nothing really changed about that approach. If you do wind up playing Mental Note then definitely play 4 Brainstorm, that play was the only thing that was halfway decent about Mental Note in thresh.

[raharu]

True, but Predict isn't helping with the problem matches (fast agro), where Mental Note would be better. Not in the same slot, but somewhere else, running both. Regarding the canrtips not really being used for achieving threshold, I would generally agee with this, but in the situation prescribed, getting overrun because you don't have any effective means of stalemating them. 1/1 don't do much against 2/2s an larger, and 4x removal isn't cutting it. I really hate seeing the deck being boxed into running red, but atm it is the only tested option.

[Cavius The Great]

If this deck is just Thresh without duals and fetches why are you guys discussing nonland card choices? This seems rather odd and pointless.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If this deck is just Thresh without duals and fetches why are you guys discussing nonland card choices? This seems rather odd and pointless.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/Arguecat.PNG


Regarding the canrtips not really being used for achieving threshold, I would generally agee with this, but in the situation prescribed, getting overrun because you don't have any effective means of stalemating them. 1/1 don't do much against 2/2s an larger, and 4x removal isn't cutting it.

If you want to stall aggro, then you could try Propaganda/Ghostly Prison for swarms of critters. But if it's a giant Goyf thats pounding you, it doesn't really do much good. I suggested O. Ring for because I figured that 4 STP wasnt going to cut it in the games you guys were playing but maybe that is too slow.

[jamest]

If this deck is just Thresh without duals and fetches why are you guys discussing nonland card choices? This seems rather odd and pointless.
Because your manabase can affect what nonland cards you play, like Back to Basics and Blood Moon.

[raharu]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/Arguecat.PNG



If you want to stall aggro, then you could try Propaganda/Ghostly Prison for swarms of critters. But if it's a giant Goyf thats pounding you, it doesn't really do much good. I suggested O. Ring for because I figured that 4 STP wasnt going to cut it in the games you guys were playing but maybe that is too slow.
Yep, that hit the nail on the head. O. Ring, while versatile, powerful, and just good, is too slow to stop a large number of 2/2- 3/3 threats. The easy way around it is just drop a thresh-bear and eat thier threats. I'll lend him some Propagandas tomorrow to test. We'll see.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Propaganda sounds like decent plan, but with all the gold lands, is it really that outlandish to keep say a mountain and 3x clasm in the board if I really have a metagame problem with swarm agro?

Say something like...

1x mountain
3x pyroclasm
3x serenity [I know there will be plenty of stax]
2x [additional meta call]
3x trygon predator [see serenity]
3x some kind of nonbasic land hosing [as needed]

only problem I see is thats four board slots gone, and theres alot of stuff I want in there. As of now, I think it will be all about figuring out what to board for a relatively unknown metagame....

I think O-ring is going in the main, as a two of most likely, with a 3-3 cb top split.

[Internet Hate Machine]

As an update -

Propaganda seems not so hot, just about everyone can play around it and it really doesnt help me in my current metagame, however, I am still curious to see what effect (if any) it would have on my legacy goblins matchup.

I am thinking about going for a red tempothresh build, so thoughts on that would also be useful. Im going to start some testing on MWS asap to try and optimize based on test data rather than assumptions.

[raharu]

I'm thinking that Dueling Grounds would fix a good number of your problems. It slows down the opponent, doesn't really hurt your gameplan (ride one or two creatures to victory), and with Grounds, you have the ability to race most of your problem match-ups (presuming that you have enough removal to take care of all the "real" threats like Sliver Legions/ 40/40 Immaculate Magistrate, so on and and so forth).

EDIT: TEST THE FUCKING MENTAL NOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Internet Hate Machine]

I'm thinking that Dueling Grounds would fix a good number of your problems. It slows down the opponent, doesn't really hurt your gameplan (ride one or two creatures to victory), and with Grounds, you have the ability to race most of your problem match-ups (presuming that you have enough removal to take care of all the "real" threats like Sliver Legions/ 40/40 Immaculate Magistrate, so on and and so forth).

EDIT: TEST THE FUCKING MENTAL NOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont know about dueling grounds outside of school, and I really dont like discussing school here since the meta is so terribly casual it seems like a big waste of time. Mental note was in the deck before, but it really didn't pull its weight, so Im wary of testing it again.

[raharu]

I dont know about dueling grounds outside of school, and I really dont like discussing school here since the meta is so terribly casual it seems like a big waste of time. Mental note was in the deck before, but it really didn't pull its weight, so Im wary of testing it again.
Last time you tested Mental Notes, you said they were "amazing" and "made your creatures more explosive for the agro MU". Your words. How about you just do it for the lulz. That, and because I say so ^_^

[throst54]

I like mental note when you want to be more aggresive. It'll get rid of the top 2 cards from a bad BS, and it'll randomly(often times, not so randomly) make your 'goyf crazy big.

I'd reccomend trying out Hoofprints of the Stag.
It comes online a lot quicker than Mystic Enforcer. More importantly, it doesnt rely on your graveyard, and in janky metas most people dont ahve ways to deal with it.
Also, keep in mind it's Tribal so it pumps your goyf and that BS will give it 3 counters.

Also... it sounds really janky... but w/ only one goyf you might consider adding Eladmari's Call or even Congregation at Dawn.
I only mention Congregation because it has synergy w/ Counterbalance and in an aggro meta going goyf-bear-bear is sexy.

[Internet Hate Machine]

I was planning on picking up some hoofprints already, but to call or congregation, they seem decent, but the deck really doesnt have room as is, I dont want to have to cut cantrips and lose that flexibility that having a good cantrip base gives you just to be slightly more agressive.

[Thehunter820]

I dont know about dueling grounds outside of school, and I really dont like discussing school here since the meta is so terribly casual it seems like a big waste of time. Mental note was in the deck before, but it really didn't pull its weight, so Im wary of testing it again.

Your basically set at school as is, the only thing you have to worry about is "slivival" and enchantress with the occasional threat from my free aggro deck :) what you should be worrying about is the tournaments where the only creature problems your likely to have is from goblins which with various assortment of cards you could effectively nutralize.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Also... it sounds really janky... but w/ only one goyf you might consider adding Eladmari's Call or even Congregation at Dawn.
I only mention Congregation because it has synergy w/ Counterbalance and in an aggro meta going goyf-bear-bear is sexy.

:1::g: for a 4/5 is great. :1::w::g::g: or :1::w::g::g::g: not so much. At that point you could just drop Mystic Enforcer and beat face (I know you can spread Call + Goyf over 2 turns but I dont care).

So what are you playing now-a-days IHM? Any closer to getting some real fetches? :P

[raharu]

Because IHM is a lazy fattie, his list currently looks something like this:

Lands: 18
Terramorphic Expanse x4
City of Brass x4
Plains x1
Forest x2
Island x7

Countermagic: 9
Daze x3 (?)
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Werebear x(3/4)
Tarmogoyf x1
Mystic Enforcer x(1/2)

Removal: 9
Swords to Plowshares x4
Rushing River x(2/3)
Oblivion Ringx(2/3)

Cantrips: 14
Raharu's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3

SB: 15 (this makes me feel funny in the pants)
Blue Elemental Blast x4
Spell Snare x4
Tygrdon Predator x3
Krosan Grip x3
Mystic Enforcer x1

Thoughts: Back to Basics? Is a Transmorphic sideboard turning the deck from w control thresh to r and/or w tempothrash feasable?

OK, I'm done. I just figured that the thread needed the current list.

[Cavius The Great]

You guys need to go on a fundraiser and raise money for your Magic habit and buy some fetches. :wink:

But seriously, can't you just rip some kids off in a trade to get a playset of Goyfs? :tongue:

[raharu]

Considering that I can pull Grim Tutors + Ichorids + $10 worth of crap rares for $5, the problem with your suggestion is the dearth lack of 'Goyfs in the area. The one we have is the only 'Goyf in the area, possible the state :]

@ the lack of real fetches and duals (I has Polluted Delta!!!, [again pulled from the local Elves! player for $5]): The lack of fetches and dual lands (specifically duals), alongside the rather easy to satisfy mana requirements of the deck's core, opens up multiple, rather interesting possibilities. For instance, the ability to side in one basic land for whatever reason (Pyroclasm, as the current situation is) instead of un-focusing the rest of the MD Manabase for a splash. It also allows the deck to do fun things such as the afore mentioned inclusion Back to Basics/ Blood Moon, or other symmetrical non-basic hate. Wasteland? FUCK YOU :] It also opens up other fun things like black for Extirpate (My second favorite card, FoW being the first).

That’s all I have.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Keep trading with the elves player.


Thoughts: Back to Basics?

Im really surprised B2B isnt in his 75. The card seems like it would perform well with the basic land setup. It takes the liability of running an inconsistent, basic land mana base and turns it into an advantage. I would even seriously consider maindecking a couple.


Is a Transmorphic sideboard turning the deck from w control thresh to r and/or w tempothrash feasable?

To do what you are proposing you would have to side in 1 Mountain, 4 Waste, 4 Stifle, 4 Lightning Bolt, 2 Spell Snare (oops ran out of slots) which would give you something like:

-Swords to Plowshares x4
-Oblivion Ringx(3)
-Mystic Enforcer x(2)
-Counterbalance x3
-Plains x1

Lands: 18
Terramorphic Expanse x4
City of Brass x4
1 Mountain
Forest x2
Island x7

Countermagic: 9
Daze x3 (?)
4 Stifle
Force of Will x4
2 Spell Snare

Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Werebear x(3)
Tarmogoyf x1

Removal: 9
4 Waste
Rushing River x(2)
4 Lightning Bolt

Cantrips: 14
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3

Raharu's Divining Top x3

Which is a shitty unsideboarded tempo thresh list. This list is pretty much the same strategy with a little better game against landstill and combo. Seems like a waste no? You could just sideboard 4 Stifles to cover combo, and some B2B to hate on landstill, and you still have room left over for Grips, Predators, BEBs, etc. You know, all those nice things you like to pull out of the board for game 2.

I think your deck would have about as much potential for a change of strategy with a regular board with the added benefit of covering much more of the field. Even the single mountain + 4 pyroclasm changes your deck about as much as the complete switch up. Usually, a transformational sideboard radically changed your decks strategy such as going from combo to agro like here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8867). With that list the player has the opportunity to nullify the combo hate cards that their opponent brings in, and most likely dodge the creature hate that was sided out. With your deck, your opponent's creature kill stays in, and they also bring in stuff to hate on thresh like Chalice, 3Sphere, etc. Youre pretty much in the same position you would have been before. I guess you might dodge those Krosan Grips they brought in for Counterbalance, but you can get that with any sideboard.

The tempo thresh idea is also no good because Wastelands are expensive, and Stifles arent exactly cheap either. So unless you already have those (or the evles player has them) then he has to wait even longer to buy Fetches. If he wants to continue building the deck, the card he needs to get is a Flooded Strand, then another, then another, then beg you to borrow your Delta.

TL;DR: bad idea.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Im planning on getting a job soon, but the money still wont come fast enough to do anything good since I can work probably < 3 days a week.

For fetches, without the duals I need the only useful one is going to be flooded strand because of its ability to fetch white and blue, assuming Im going to cut red for tournaments, which is a pretty safe assumption. A fetch manabase could be as follows -

4x city of brass
4x flooded strand
4x island
4x forest
1x plains

Then I could go on to trying to gather four or so duals (2 trops and 2 tundra)
to replace cities.

The only reason b2b isnt in the current list is because we arent going to any tournaments any time soon, I fully intend on it being in there later.

[Thehunter820]

Yeah once you get those, I think we should all go play in some tournaments to get some better experience, but to my point, I think you should do more than 4, do like 6 if you can get the money for it, 3 of each.

[Internet Hate Machine]

I think you should do more than 4, do like 6 if you can get the money for it, 3 of each.


Dont make me laugh.

[Thehunter820]

I dont think if you can get the money for 4, 2 more wud be harder.

[raharu]

Yeah, that wasn't really a thought out sugestion. Maybeh I should quit making those, but I just really enjoy making IHM playtest. The reason that IHM is not running the B2B main is because A) doesn't have, and B) is too busy trying to stomp the crap out of everything in the school without boarding (harder that it sounds because jank has even more diversity than the general legacy metagame) because he can't develop the deck further than what he has on hand ATM.

For the upcoming tournament (FATTIE’S GAY SWORD FIGHT OPEN, SOMEWHERE IN AZLE, TX, AT SOME POINT IN TIME, BUT IT‘S GOING TO HAPPEN… Eventually. Prolly within April), I do believe that IHM is going to be running a some sort of UG hybrid thingy with a white splash for swords and 12 threats (Dryads, Werebears, Geese, and the ‘Goyf). I think he should play 11 threats, consisting of 4x Mongoose, 4x Werebear, the goyf and 2x Enforcers, since he hits his land drops with surprising consistency (4 lands on turn 5 a good amount of the time, sometimes 4 lands turn 4). Thoughts?

Also, IHM, that Manabase weakens Daze. You’re going from 11 “Islands” to 8 “Islands”. I would suggest something like the “weirdo” Manabase (as I‘ve heard it described, I‘ve forgotten whom the idea originally came from), with 3 Strands and 2 Windswept Heath so you can run something like this:

3 Flooded Strands
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forests
1 Plains
2-4 City of Brass
6-8 Islands

Leaving you with easier access to your splash colors while maintaining a better Manabase for Daze.

Also, you’ll want Dueling Grounds for random agro, so focus on that before this shiny new Manabase :tongue:

[Internet Hate Machine]

I have never had an 11 island base raharu, where on earth did you get the idea that I did?

Though I was forgetting about windswept heath, props on the reminding me and such.

[raharu]

I have never had an 11 island base raharu, where on earth did you get the idea that I did?

Though I was forgetting about windswept heath, props on the reminding me and such.
7 Islands + 4 Terramorphic Expanse = 11 "Islands"

[Internet Hate Machine]

7 Islands + 4 Terramorphic Expanse = 11 "Islands"

I havent been using 7 islands in the deck though.

[Thehunter820]

I havent been using 7 islands in the deck though.
yeah he hasnt had 7 islands in a while, since it was that isochron cephalid constable thing.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Ok, after a little bit of testing I have come to the immediate conclusion that I like the GRO variant of this deck better. Here is approximately my current list;

4x Quirion Dryad
3x werebear and 1x goyf
4x nimble mongoose

4x force
4x daze
3x counterbalance

4x STP
2x O-ring

4x ponder and 1x portent
3x predict
3x Brainstorm
3x SDT

4x terramorphic
2x COB
5x island
4x forest
2x plains

I find adding dryad gives me an early game plan other than 'resolve counterbalance and pray it wins'. With dryad main I am able to go agressive in the early game and finish it out in the middle game with my bears and geese, which is especially relevant against any kind of random agro decks since it can hold off an assault of smaller critters pretty well.

Im conflicted however, on how many cantrips I need to really make it strong, I want to add in a third O-ring and the best cut I see is the singleton portent, but it does two things in adding a small bit of consitancy, something thresh/gro really needs, and buffing dryad, and the '5 ponder build' has worked amazingly well at reducing mulligans. I am really unsure on where to go from here but I think that the GRO build is the way Im going to go with this, especially since its more UG dependant allowing me far less reliance on the white splash and making it more the extra utility I want it to be.

[Happy Gilmore]

A budget threshold deck will never ever win a major tournament, end of story. Why are we even entertaining this as a concept?

What I get from this is that some people are willing to make every matchup under the sun worse in order to save money. Meanwhile.....these same ppl are willing to drive to a tournament and spend $25 just to lose. Why would you do that?

Wouldn't you like to get a return on your investment (even though its relatively small)? The contradictions are so great it makes me sick.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What I get from this is that some people are willing to make every matchup under the sun worse in order to save money.

It might help if you actually read the fucking thread first.

[Thehunter820]

A budget threshold deck will never ever win a major tournament, end of story. Why are we even entertaining this as a concept?

What I get from this is that some people are willing to make every matchup under the sun worse in order to save money. Meanwhile.....these same ppl are willing to drive to a tournament and spend $25 just to lose. Why would you do that?

Wouldn't you like to get a return on your investment (even though its relatively small)? The contradictions are so great it makes me sick.

Im fairly sure you could make top 8 in a Texas tournament, with this deck, you'd be lucky if there were like 3 playsets of tarmogoyf in the whole state. The deck isnt made to be cheap, the deck is made by someone who loves the game, and greatly understands it, while still learning, however, he's trying to improve, with virtually no income. The object isnt to not buy expensive stuff, its to buy the best you can for as little as possible, and still have a chance in a tournament.

[Internet Hate Machine]

A budget threshold deck will never ever win a major tournament, end of story. Why are we even entertaining this as a concept?

What I get from this is that some people are willing to make every matchup under the sun worse in order to save money. Meanwhile.....these same ppl are willing to drive to a tournament and spend $25 just to lose. Why would you do that?

Wouldn't you like to get a return on your investment (even though its relatively small)? The contradictions are so great it makes me sick.

A major tournament?

I am a full time student, with no car, in north Texas. Exactly what god damned major tournaments am I going to attend? Look, as much as it pains me mentally to have to explain all this again, I want to go to local card shop tournaments around the general area and get some play in with people who arent playing garbage.dec, and I ALREADY OWN this deck as it is being discussed in this thread. Im sorry my existance as a magic player offends you somehow, or maybe the fact that I want some advice from people that KNOW legacy. Look, I don't think the entry fees on local tourny's around these parts are too god aweful expensive, and frankly, the only posts I've seen out of you are pretty much telling me I need to drop magic because I cant afford an entire new damn deck right now, and I sure cant buy one I already have a feel for and know how to play. Just get out of the thread if you dont like it, it's not hard.

[Media314r8]

Have you considered Vinelasher Kudzu? He works very well with the expanses, and you could include a couple of rav-bounce lands to help with your low # of lands (and to grow kudzu arbitrarily large.) I'm not saying he's the best ever, but he CAN get bigger than goyf, and he defiantly costs like $1

[Thehunter820]

Have you considered Vinelasher Kudzu? He works very well with the expanses, and you could include a couple of rav-bounce lands to help with your low # of lands (and to grow kudzu arbitrarily large.) I'm not saying he's the best ever, but he CAN get bigger than goyf, and he defiantly costs like $1

Not a bad suggestion, however doubt he'll go for it, he hates on bouncelands all the time, i'll tell him to think about it.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Have you considered Vinelasher Kudzu? He works very well with the expanses, and you could include a couple of rav-bounce lands to help with your low # of lands (and to grow kudzu arbitrarily large.) I'm not saying he's the best ever, but he CAN get bigger than goyf, and he defiantly costs like $1

Actually the kudzu would work out better than it at first appears, being that a terramorphic is +2/+2 and it has decent synergies with say undiscovered paradise or as you said bounce lands run for mana fixing, but when compared to dryads I think it still falls short. Dryads ultimately grow faster, Im fairly certain there, also another deciding factor is that your free counters act as a kind of double protection for dryad, giving it an additional buff and stopping a potential removal spell.

I think dryad requires the deck being built around it less than vinelasher does, in any case Ill note it for further testing.

[Thehunter820]

I know its not optimum choice but maybe you should test Wild Mongrel, 2 mana 2/2 and his ability buffs him and gives you faster thresh, could help in situation when say, you have too much mana in hand and no way to shuffle them back in and such. I dunno, just a thought. Maybe test him as a 3 of or something.

[Happy Gilmore]

A major tournament?

I am a full time student, with no car, in north Texas. Exactly what god damned major tournaments am I going to attend? Look, as much as it pains me mentally to have to explain all this again, I want to go to local card shop tournaments around the general area and get some play in with people who arent playing garbage.dec, and I ALREADY OWN this deck as it is being discussed in this thread. Im sorry my existance as a magic player offends you somehow, or maybe the fact that I want some advice from people that KNOW legacy. Look, I don't think the entry fees on local tourny's around these parts are too god aweful expensive, and frankly, the only posts I've seen out of you are pretty much telling me I need to drop magic because I cant afford an entire new damn deck right now, and I sure cant buy one I already have a feel for and know how to play. Just get out of the thread if you dont like it, it's not hard.

I do appologise, I have seen these "budget threads" before and reading them fully has always been a waste of time. Some individuals can't accept that making a deck budget will only make it worse. That is not the case here. Without going back and re-reading the whole thread could you tell me if you can get a hold of fetchlands? You do not need duals to make thresh but fetchlands are key.

If you can get your hands on atleast 8 fetchlands you may want to consider Kudzu, otherwise Werebear will be better. There is also another version that comes to mind, but is really only good if you know your opponent does not have Tarmogoys. Something like this:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mishra's Bauble }You can change both these slots to 1 Portent, 3 STD, and 4 Predict if you like. However, I think you are going to need more shuffle effects.
4 Street Wraith }

4 Spell Snare (The weakest slot and can be changed easily)
2 Rushing River
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 City of Brass
6 Islands
2 Forests
1 Plains
4 Teramorphic Expanse

Its a variation on a deck we called turbo threshold. The idea being to make Tarmogoyf as big as possible as quick as possible, but it also helps you get to Threshold very fast as well.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Its ok, I can see you having frustration with things like that and how it would have caused some unfortunate conclusions.

As for fetchlands, I am starting work on getting together the money for 4-6 fetches, I want a good divide between flooded strand and windswept heath though and Im wary as to what ratio to run, so Ill be tinkering thwith at on MWS. (getting them could still take a month or so.)

The turbo list is interesting to say the least. Obviously its a much more agressive route but Im wondering how I best could fit CB-Top into it and keep it effectively agressive. I could fairly easily include counterbalance in the snare slot though, and still have room for top in the slots you said were interchangable. Its just been such a powerhouse in testing that I shudder to remove it. More shuffle effects would be a must with 4 brainstorm, however the combination of it being the ~best~ cantrip and its synergy with 'balance it may well be worth keeping four.

I would probably end up cutting out the street wraith slot all together, or reducing the number of COBs. In testing I find that the deck can get hurt for life in the later-middle game.

[raharu]

2x Undiscovered Paradise? You're done it before to no extreme ill.

[Thehunter820]

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

4 Spell Snare
2 Rushing River
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 City of Brass
6 Islands
2 Forests
1 Plains
4 Teramorphic Expanse


looks fairly decent however the i'd probly drop the enforce just because its usually not necessary.

[Internet Hate Machine]

2x Undiscovered Paradise? You're done it before to no extreme ill.

No, 2 was too much, after testing I reached that conclusion pretty solidly, you never ever ever want to see more than one.



Have you guys ever heard of AIM? This is like a whole thread comprised of three people. :rolleyes:

Then leave it alone and dont post?

[Bovinious]

Can this deck really support 4 Daze with just 6 Islands and 4 Expanse(which you wont always want to get Island with)? I havnt tested it at all and maybe it works just fine, it just seems like a potential problem to me.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Can this deck really support 4 Daze with just 6 Islands and 4 Expanse(which you wont always want to get Island with)? I havnt tested it at all and maybe it works just fine, it just seems like a potential problem to me.

It can seem like it would be but up to this point I really havent had any problems supporting daze at all. 5-6 real fetches will improve on that but I really havent seen any issues in testing and I am currently only running 5 islands.

[raharu]

Enforcer is soooooo necessary. It breaks stalemates and improves agro matches (before you whine about that statement IHM, tell how does a 6/6 flying creature isn't going to drasticly improve your board against agro?). On that note, IHM, you should really listen to what I said about the 1-2 Enforcers in the MD.

[Thehunter820]

I dont think the mystic enforcers are that necessary, generally are just a win more, with werebears and mongeese and tarmogoyf in he can usually out damage them and he can just out right kill the fatties via counter/stp, so I don think that the enforcer is the right way to go, its a 4 mana 6/6, were bear is a 2 mana 4/4 and tarmogoyf is on average a 2 mana 5/6. So, mystic enforcer could be played, but its not rly the best choice or necessary.

[raharu]

I dont think the mystic enforcers are that necessary, generally are just a win more, with werebears and mongeese and tarmogoyf in he can usually out damage them and he can just out right kill the fatties via counter/stp, so I don think that the enforcer is the right way to go, its a 4 mana 6/6, were bear is a 2 mana 4/4 and tarmogoyf is on average a 2 mana 5/6. So, mystic enforcer could be played, but its not rly the best choice or necessary.
Really? Win-more? Considering that Mongeese, Bears, and teh 'Goyf lack evasion (as well as the recently added Dryad), which was pretty much my pimary pitching point, Bears, 'Geese, and 'Goyf aren't going to do jack shit when random jank like Robbie's shows up and clutters the board to the point that 4x Swords to Plowshares doesn't cut it and you get your face eaten by Goblin Furriers. The whole reason to run Enforcer is it's evasion. Seriously, if you don't want to run Enforcer, run Ghostly/ Phantom Wings for fuck's sake. The reason that IHM struggles the way he does with random agro is the fact that he stabilizes into board stalls and can't force any damage through. Eoforcer/ jank like Wings solves this problem.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

If he's getting swarmed by random jank like Goblin Furriers, then sideboard in Pyroclasm. Why isn't his Counterbalance carrying it's weight?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Seriously, if you don't want to run Enforcer, run Ghostly/ Phantom Wings for fuck's sake.

WTF?

Creature Auras are really crappy in general, and even then, there has to be something better than Phantom Wings. Besides you play MONGOOSE so you only have like 5-6 doodz to strap it to, and that's IF you run Enforcer.


4x Swords to Plowshares doesn't cut it and you get your face eaten by Goblin Furriers.

Goblin Furrier? Do you guys play magic on Mars or something?

Edit: @IHM: Buying 6 Fetches is not the way to go. The next 6 lands you need to buy are 5 Fetches and a Trop

Here:

====

6 Fetches

4 Strand
2 Heath
4 Expanse/City
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Island

W 11
U 12 (islands = 12/8)
G 8

===

5 Fetches and a Trop

4 Strand
1 Heath
1 Trop
4 Expanse/City
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Island

W 10
U 14 (islands= 14/10)
G 12

===

5 Fetches and a Tundra

4 Strand
1 Heath
1 Tundra
4 Expanse/City
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Island

W 11
U 14 (islands= 14/10)
G 7

Which manabase do you like best?

Buy 2 Strands, then a Trop, then 2 More Flooded Strands and a Heath.

[Thehunter820]

Really? Win-more? Considering that Mongeese, Bears, and teh 'Goyf lack evasion (as well as the recently added Dryad), which was pretty much my pimary pitching point, Bears, 'Geese, and 'Goyf aren't going to do jack shit when random jank like Robbie's shows up and clutters the board to the point that 4x Swords to Plowshares doesn't cut it and you get your face eaten by Goblin Furriers. The whole reason to run Enforcer is it's evasion. Seriously, if you don't want to run Enforcer, run Ghostly/ Phantom Wings for fuck's sake. The reason that IHM struggles the way he does with random agro is the fact that he stabilizes into board stalls and can't force any damage through. Eoforcer/ jank like Wings solves this problem.

lols. Ok so first, I was talking about going to tournaments, in which the deck would carry its own weight, not against randombadagro.deck and if I recall he rarely loses to that anyways, and I wudnt run the wings, because auras are just bad. My other points, with Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Werebear, and Quirion Dryad, in the deck most of as a 4 of I believe, im quite sure he could play 2-3 creatures and just over power the badagro.decks, as the biggest most play is a 2/2 occasionally 3/3, or the rest of the deck is uncastables. Also, when you get the money, you should also buy the second mana base, it looks rly nice and even.

[Internet Hate Machine]

To start off, stalls arent what kill me, its slow stabilization time, and enforcer really doesnt increase that at all, I want cards I can actually cast, and enforcer isnt easily cast fast enough at all to go the distance against the resolved goblin horde. Simply put, what kills is stabilizing too late, not getting deadlocked.

Counterbalance, while a seeming effective tool against a deck like that has to come down turn two to stop the earlier gob's and then I have to find a 3cc spell on top to stop more from resolving, the decks creatures just come down too little too late to stop them when I lose that MU.

Dryad has gone leaps and bounds to solve that jank horde problem, coming down fast and effectively stalling until I can get that counterbalance going, and then just beat face with multiple bigger dudes.

I realize getting a trop would be the way to go, and maybe 6 fetches was a little bit of an overstatement anyway. I will not soon be able to afford 4 fetches, much less 6, and definately not a trop. I cant seem to find them at a reasonable bargain anywhere. I was really planning to settle on a 5 fetch base but without the dual since it tacks on alot and five fetches by themselves are going to take me a while to obtain.

[GiantGrowth]

Goblin Furrier? Do you guys play magic on Mars or something?


just imagine all the worst players from the tournaments you've been to, and put them all in a metagame, plus us. and thats azle. although I guess it's better than no magic at all

[raharu]

OK, Ghostly Wings was an exatgeration. The point I was trying to make was that evasion helps. Enforcer, if threshed, lets the deck sling a fat wall in front of the OP that comes down as a fat wall, unlike Dryad, and helps you stablize.

On a sidenote, what turn do you get thresh around on average?

[Cavius The Great]

OK, Ghostly Wings was an exatgeration. The point I was trying to make was that evasion helps. Enforcer, if threshed, lets the deck sling a fat wall in front of the OP that comes down as a fat wall, unlike Dryad, and helps you stablize.

On a sidenote, what turn do you get thresh around on average?

Isn't evasion irrelevent when they have no creatures? I'd say just up the creature kill.

[raharu]

More removal is always nice, but evasion means that you don't have to bother with going 1 for 1 all day and still not clear enough of a path to deal lethal.

[Cavius The Great]

Here's a budget Thresh list off the top of my head.

4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Helix
4 Mana Leak
4 Rune Snag
4 Lotus Petal (feeds yard)

4 Gemstone Mine (feeds yard)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Island
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Plains

Your best bet is to run a list like this with alot of removal to try and make up for how bad the concept of this deck is. I've seen alot of bad decks that win just becuase they pack a shitload of removal cards and counters. I'm not saying this idea is bad, but if you want to win tournaments and improvise at the same time, massive amounts of removal is key here.

[raharu]

FoW is where? I think it would benefit us all, and you especially, if you read the thread :P

Magma Jet is terrible. Mana Leak is terrible. Rune Snag is terrible.

How is it that you didn't incorperate the materials on hand that are essential to the deck (i.e. Force of Will, Counterbalance, Daze), but throw in Fetchlands that are out of poor IHM's (literally :P) budget? Caviar, you're a cruel man.

Also, I think that whilc Petal could be a decent idea, it doesn't really do anything for the deck and could just a easily be a bauble.

Lightning Helix could solve some of the problems with "slow stabilization", offing a threat with some life gain attached. If I don't forget, I'llbring my playset tomorrow.

In a list like that, there reall isn't any reason to not run Pyroclasm. It solves most of your problems in randombadagro.dec matches and is nice against Ichorid (Threshold's worst MU).

A list vaguely resembling something like that above could be workable. With Helixes, CB, and Pyroclasm you might be able to fix some of the MU's that you're going to have an issue with.

[GiantGrowth]

FoW is where? I think it would benefit us all, and you especially, if you read the thread :P

Magma Jet is terrible. Mana Leak is terrible. Rune Snag is terrible.

How is it that you didn't incorperate the materials on hand that are essential to the deck (i.e. Force of Will, Counterbalance, Daze), but throw in Fetchlands that are out of poor IHM's (literally :P) budget? Caviar, you're a cruel man.

Also, I think that whilc Petal could be a decent idea, it doesn't really do anything for the deck and could just a easily be a bauble.

Lightning Helix could solve some of the problems with "slow stabilization", offing a threat with some life gain attached. If I don't forget, I'llbring my playset tomorrow.

In a list like that, there reall isn't any reason to not run Pyroclasm. It solves most of your problems in randombadagro.dec matches and is nice against Ichorid (Threshold's worst MU).

A list vaguely resembling something like that above could be workable. With Helixes, CB, and Pyroclasm you might be able to fix some of the MU's that you're going to have an issue with.

mana leak is fine in a decent meta, just bad at the school. although I agree about magma jet, the cantrips are enough IMO

@cavius directly: I like the idea, but putting in bad cards isn't what the deck needs. lotus petal to feed the yard? why not just mental note? 4 force definately belong in the deck as IHM has them and the one goyf im letting him borrow. but heavy removal seems good in a meta without alot of fast aggro.

[raharu]

Would the point of heavy removal not be to nullify fast agro?

[GiantGrowth]

Would the point of heavy removal not be to nullify fast agro?

when I say fast aggro I mean things like goblins where you are going to throw all your removal and counters out there, but there are still creatures left that they can beat you in the face with.

[raharu]

In a list that removal heavy, would there really be that many creatures left? Goblins generally doesn't extend that much. They don't strive to have much more than 3-4 goblins on the board, and you could fairly easily just burn ou everything they drop for a few turns and drop a thresh'd creature somewhere around turn 4-5.

[GiantGrowth]

In a list that removal heavy, would there really be that many creatures left? Goblins generally doesn't extend that much. They don't strive to have much more than 3-4 goblins on the board, and you could fairly easily just burn ou everything they drop for a few turns and drop a thresh'd creature somewhere around turn 4-5.

I wasn't talking specifically about goblins, but what I was talking about could probably be solved with pyroclasm or the like.

[raharu]

lol, I instantly thought of Zimmerman's elves ^_^

True, but there are the problems that countersliver could provide him that Pyroclasm might not answer. Many fast, protected, large and untargetable creatures could be annoying, but considering that Dryad could just out-grow them and Enforcer will be larger than them 90% of the time anyway... Hmmmm, I guess I'll need to build that for him to test against.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Scored a second tarmogoyf today, so half way there on a playset of those now.

[Happy Gilmore]

looks fairly decent however the i'd probly drop the enforce just because its usually not necessary.

Having reach is another way to obtain inevitability outside of Counterbalance. It also provides you with yet another way to kill Tarmogoyfs. I would actually recomend running 2 of them but I think 1 is fine for this particular situation.

The problem with STD is that you are going to have a very hard time getting it to work properly without fetchlands. I run 8 in every build I play. Also, I don't think its possible to play this deck successfully without 16 blue sources in the deck. Just keep that in mind when you build the mana base. I was able to squeze 14 without fetchlands and duals.In reality Tarmogofys are not completely necessary but fetchlands are, without them you may have early game issues. Teramorophic expanse is not a fetchland. If you end up buying fetches I would suggest buying 4x Strand and 1x Breeding pool to Start off, creating a mana base that looks like:

4 Strand
4 City of Brass
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
2 Terramorhic Expanse
4 Island
1 Forest

[Cavius The Great]

mana leak is fine in a decent meta, just bad at the school. although I agree about magma jet, the cantrips are enough IMO

@cavius directly: I like the idea, but putting in bad cards isn't what the deck needs. lotus petal to feed the yard? why not just mental note? 4 force definately belong in the deck as IHM has them and the one goyf im letting him borrow. but heavy removal seems good in a meta without alot of fast aggro.

Lotus Petal is mainly in there for first turn counters such as Rune Snag and Mana Leak. I also didn't know you guys had FoWs, if I had, I would of definitely incorporated them into the deck.

[Happy Gilmore]

Lotus Petal is mainly in there for first turn counters such as Rune Snag and Mana Leak. I also didn't know you guys had FoWs, if I had, I would of definitely incorporated them into the deck.

Rune Snag and Mana Leak are both completely unplayable in legacy. Threshold rarely has 2 mana open anyway. You really dont need more than 4FoW, 3-4 Daze, and some number of CBs.

[Thehunter820]

Having reach is another way to obtain inevitability outside of Counterbalance. It also provides you with yet another way to kill Tarmogoyfs. I would actually recomend running 2 of them but I think 1 is fine for this particular situation.

The problem with STD is that you are going to have a very hard time getting it to work properly without fetchlands. I run 8 in every build I play. Also, I don't think its possible to play this deck successfully without 16 blue sources in the deck. Just keep that in mind when you build the mana base. I was able to squeze 14 without fetchlands and duals.In reality Tarmogofys are not completely necessary but fetchlands are, without them you may have early game issues. Teramorophic expanse is not a fetchland. If you end up buying fetches I would suggest buying 4x Strand and 1x Breeding pool to Start off, creating a mana base that looks like:

4 Strand
4 City of Brass
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
2 Terramorhic Expanse
4 Island
1 Forest

yeah I know that the enforcer has its purpose, but he has the only 2 tarmogoyfs that we see in regular play, and there's only 1 person with fatties that could compete, so they are irrelevant in 95% of all cases.

[GiantGrowth]

yeah I know that the enforcer has its purpose, but he has the only 2 tarmogoyfs that we see in regular play, and there's only 1 person with fatties that could compete, so they are irrelevant in 95% of all cases.

Out local meta is bad, and the deck would be fine with or without enforcer here. We're trying to get it the best it can be for semi-competitive to competitive play. Without the funds to get the thresh staple manabases.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Scored a second tarmogoyf today, so half way there on a playset of those now.
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/a/ab/Happysnake.jpg


The problem with STD is that you are going to have a very hard time getting it to work properly without fetchlands.

Actually, if you have STD then you have bigger problems than Fetches probably.

[raharu]

Yeah, awesomely stupid meta is awesomely stupid.

What problems?

On the note of fetches and whatnot, would Portent > Ponder be viable in the deck because of it's better synergy? I don't think that, considering that the deck is more controling that typical thresh lists, the lag between play and draw would be a problem.

[xsockmonkeyx]

No, Ponder is better. Making land drops > disrupting opponents topdeck 1/25 games.

[raharu]

I think the question is more like this:

Is digging 3 and getting the draw right now better than digging 3+3 and drawing the card later if you don't want to grab it with top (which is really the conjecture here).

[xsockmonkeyx]

Most likely, but that is a good point. Drawing the card now is really, really good though. All of your business is sorcery speed: land, Mongoose, Counterbalance, Top, 2!x Goyf. If you choose to shuffle with Ponder, and draw some business off the random draw, then you will be glad that you can play that card on the same turn more often than the times you get extra card quality with your Top from Portent (probably).

[raharu]

If one really needs said busness now, then you can draw into it with top right then. I think the tempo loss from drawing with top is really lackluster though. Perhaps a 2 Potent 3 Ponder split so you have the dig later when you're more likely to have SDT, but with a higher Ponder count so you aren't as reliant on SDT?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Play 3 Portent 4 Ponder until you get the Strands. That gives you 11 shuffles, which is decent.

Top of your Library.dec

4 Expanse
4 City
2 Forest
1 Plains
7 Island

4 Mongoose
2 Goyf
2 Enforcer
2 Werebear

4 FOW
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 STP

4 Counterbalance
3 Raharu's Divining Top
3 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

1 Mountain
4 Pyroclasm
3 REB
2 Blood Moon/B2B
2 BEB
3 Krosan Grip

[raharu]

Play 3 Portent 4 Ponder until you get the Strands. That gives you 11 shuffles, which is decent.

Top of your Library.dec

4 Expanse
4 City
2 Forest
1 Plains
7 Island

4 Mongoose
2 Goyf
2 Enforcer
2 Werebear

4 FOW
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 STP

4 Counterbalance
3 Raharu's Divining Top
3 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

1 Mountain
4 Pyroclasm
3 REB
2 Blood Moon/B2B
2 BEB
3 Krosan Grip

That list looks so much more delicious with 2!!x 'Goyf.

Holy Permission Batman! It's like ThreshStill! More control elements are always apreciated though. On the note of which slots get dedicated to what, upon testing Quirion Dryad, it's good enough to run 3 so you can find and drop it early to assist with stabilizing. Still a terrible topdeck, but it has been found to be vastly better in the early game than Werebear. Any thoughts? I'm thinking something such as -1 Enforcer (are two needed with 14! cantrip effects?), -1 bear, perhaps -1 Daze for +3 Dryad? The marginally increased thread density is something to be apreciated, and x3 Daze shouldn't be much less effective than 4x. Considering that the deck has 11 threats and an almost abnormal amount of permission, the resiliency and density of the threats should be something formidable.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That list looks so much more delicious with 2!!x 'Goyf.

Holy Permission Batman! It's like ThreshStill! More control elements are always apreciated though. On the note of which slots get dedicated to what, upon testing Quirion Dryad, it's good enough to run 3 so you can find and drop it early to assist with stabilizing. Still a terrible topdeck, but it has been found to be vastly better in the early game than Werebear. Any thoughts? I'm thinking something such as -1 Enforcer (are two needed with 14! cantrip effects?), -1 bear, perhaps -1 Daze for +3 Dryad? The marginally increased thread density is something to be apreciated, and x3 Daze shouldn't be much less effective than 4x. Considering that the deck has 11 threats and an almost abnormal amount of permission, the resiliency and density of the threats should be something formidable.

If Dryad is better in testing then use that. The 2x Werebear would really be Goyf in a perfect world. As to the extra threat density, I have no idea since I havent shuffled this up. SHould probably find out though.

[Media314r8]

Has anyone tested vinelasher Kuszu yet in place of dryad? He has pseudo-synergy with terramorphic expanse, (much better with actual fetches) and with him as a four-of, you could probably justify running some ravnica bounce lands, as you're allready playing lands that CiP tapped, and aside from enforcer, your curve ends at 2.

Begin the OMFG n00b wastelands wreck rav bounces, ect ect. Remeber, this is budget.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Has anyone tested vinelasher Kuszu yet in place of dryad? He has pseudo-synergy with terramorphic expanse, (much better with actual fetches) and with him as a four-of, you could probably justify running some ravnica bounce lands, as you're allready playing lands that CiP tapped, and aside from enforcer, your curve ends at 2.

Begin the OMFG n00b wastelands wreck rav bounces, ect ect. Remeber, this is budget.

The problem with rav bounce lands is this:

This deck loves one-two land opening hands, they tend to function the best. Rav bounce lands cant be played at all without another land to support them. Currently COB is the only land that I cant play an opening hand off, and rav bounces would increase that number. Plus terramorphic already slows the deck, with more CIPT lands I think it would just be too slow.

[Thehunter820]

So, why do you plan to go 5-color thresh... and are you planning on that for tournaments or just locally?

[Internet Hate Machine]

So, why do you plan to go 5-color thresh... and are you planning on that for tournaments or just locally?

Not so much "5 color" as having the option to be 5 color, right now Im trying to keep more gold lands in the deck, but its risky. I really really need pyroclasm though, Im thinking its just a must locally, and if it turns out to work well its just a bonus.

Really, I want more gold lands to stop having such reliance on early terramorphics which can often slow my early game too much. Right now my manabase looks like this (janky I know).

4x City of brass
4x Gemstone mine
1x undiscovered paradise
4x terramorphic expanse
1x island
1x mountain
1x plains
1x forest

It should also be noted that I obviously cant run Daze with this manabase, so spell snares have taken that slot for now.

[stalkerzero]

Hate to necro a thread but I was wondering about my own budget thresh.

I have no clue where to start really. I was hoping if I listed what I have available maybe someone could help me along.

I have:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Ponder
4x Brain Storm
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Flooded Strand
1x Mystic Enforcer

Should I attempt a budget UGw thresh or stick with my combo deck (Sensei, Sensei with no alternate kill condition other than Brain Freeze)?

I have about $40 and some tradeables (although nothing tradeable enough to really pick up Goyfs or Duals - maybe 1-2 more fetchlands).

[xsockmonkeyx]

That's a good start. Obviously, you should pick up Mongoose and Werebear, and maybe another Enforcer. If you can pick up a Trop then you will be a lot better off as far as covering your colors because then you can fetch out all 3 colors with your Strands. You can try Shocklands in the short term too, but they will have to be replaced eventually, so they are kind of a waste of money. Also get the following: 4 Predict, 4-5 Blue Blasts, 4 Tormod's Crypts, 4 Krosan Grips, and some O. Rings.

Good luck.

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I think that the best way to make-up for your lack of Goyfs against other Goyf decks, you should consider running maindeck Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty/Vedalken Shackles.

[Nihil Credo]

Or, you know, you could play a blue-based deck that is not Threshold. Dreadstill* comes to mind: a playset of Dreadnought and Stifles should be more or less within your budget, and you'd have a pretty much optimal decklist, even with the white splash being accounted for.

*For those who think Dreadstill sucks: I hope you will agree at least it sucks less than a budget Thresh with no duals and no Tarmogoyf?

[xsockmonkeyx]

WTF are you talking about? Dreadnaughts are like $20-25 a pop.

[Nihil Credo]

Seriously? Holy shit. Ignore what I just wrote, then.

[stalkerzero]

Or, you know, you could play a blue-based deck that is not Threshold. Dreadstill* comes to mind: a playset of Dreadnought and Stifles should be more or less within your budget, and you'd have a pretty much optimal decklist, even with the white splash being accounted for.

*For those who think Dreadstill sucks: I hope you will agree at least it sucks less than a budget Thresh with no duals and no Tarmogoyf?

I have a current mono-blue Sensei, Sensei deck (that's how I have the start that I have for thresh) but I'd love to work towards thresh. Combo and islands are so heavily hated on in my meta and since it's a more reliable deck. I've posted my Sensei, Sensei build just about everywhere for help and so far it's not doing too poorly. I'm just not real sure if a "budget" thresh (basically missing goyfs/and having only one dual land most likely) will be better (so far I've placed sixth out of 16 as my best with the Sensei deck).

[Nihil Credo]

OK, here's idea #2: Merfolk w/ CounterTop and Back to Basics (as opposed to the one with Wastes, Ports, Stifles, and Vials). Wake Thrasher's price is ramping up quickly, and you probably want some expensive artifacts in the board, but neither are essential. The other Merfolks are pretty easy to get, B2B is cheap, and the resulting deck is surprisingly solid. Not exactly Threshold level, but probably CounterSliver-level.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Or he could just play Countersliver.

[Nihil Credo]

Except CounterSlivers requires more fetches and lots of duals.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Except CounterSlivers requires more fetches and lots of duals.

Not really? Its a much easier manabase than thresh, and he already has 4 Strands. The only green you need is for Muscle, then Grip and/or Harmonic out of the side. Plus you can just vial your shit in.

Also, Merfolk are for ****.

[stalkerzero]

I think after playing budget Thresh on MWS a bit I'm going to stick with my combo deck and just keep buying cards towards Thresh. The lack of duals wasn't hurting as much as the lack of a solid sideboard but it still wasn't near optimal without the duals.

Sensei, Sensei isn't that terrible. It's just bad to play Islands and combo where I play.

[Clark Kant]

Interesting thought experiment.

Nimble Mongoose x4
Werebear x4
Mystic Enforcer x2

Swords to Plowshares x4
Back to Basics x4

Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x4
Senseis Divining Top x2

Serum Visions/Counterspell/Threads of Disloyality x3
Counterbalance x3
Force of will x4

Windswept Heath x4
Flooded Strand x4
Breeding Pool x2
Plains x2
Forest x2
Island x4

FoW is honestly the only must play pricy card in Thresh. Werebear is very underrated these days. Yes he sucks against opposing Tarmogoyf which is why he's not used. But he's aside from that situation, he's honestly close to Goyf's powerlevel when you consider the additional utility his mana generation ability sometimes offers but at about a 1/50th the cost.

You can change up the manabase and cut brainstorm but I think fetches are worth the investment. They will useful for every deck you play, and here both help you get Threshold, and let you play Brainstorm. Two ravnica duals are nowadays cheaper to buy on ebay than four city of brass.

Perhaps an even superior option is...

Nimble Mongoose x4
Werebear x4
Vinelasher Kudzu/Quirion Dryad/Serendib Efreet x2

Back to Basics x4

Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3
Senseis Divining Top x2

Threads of Disloyality x2
Snakeform x2

Serum Visions x2
Counterspell x2
Counterbalance x3
Force of will x4

Flooded Strand x4
Windswept Heath x4
Breeding Pool x2
Forest x3
Island x5

Something akin to Terramorphic Expanse or Search for Tomorrow has definite potential in the deck as well.

[Fons]

Sorry for the necro but i'm looking for something for my little brother to play and he wants to play aggro control. I want something that he can play now but still upgrade later so I was wondering what a budget thresh list would look like with natural order. Can you help me out?

Edit:
The cards I own are:
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
1 Counterbalance
4 Swords
4 PtE
1 Tundra
4 Natural Order

This is going to be an early b-day present so I will also have like $50-$60

[Seriously]

Sorry for the necro but i'm looking for something for my little brother to play and he wants to play aggro control. I want something that he can play now but still upgrade later so I was wondering what a budget thresh list would look like with natural order. Can you help me out?

Edit:
The cards I own are:
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
1 Counterbalance
4 Swords
4 PtE
1 Tundra
4 Natural Order

This is going to be an early b-day present so I will also have like $50-$60

so are you adding $50-$60 worth of cards onto that list ? is that what you're asking ?

[MULocke]

If you have ~$50 and want to build a budget version, I'd stay with u/g. Get some breeding pools and the other tops/balances, and add some werebears and a progenitus for natural order (obv). You can use control magic effects and hail storm out of the board for aggro, and you manabase is both more resilient to hate and less expensive.

[Nihil Credo]

Get some breeding pools

Bad idea. Breeding Pool: 9-10 €, Tropical Island: 24-25 € (prices from mcm.eu). At a 1:2,5 ratio, it's not worth it to invest on the lesser replacement, unless you intend to play some Extended as well. Start out with a single dual land, then buy fetchlands.

[Media314r8]

budget thresh list would look like with natural order. Can you help me out?

This is going to be an early b-day present so I will also have like $50-$60

4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Natural Order
4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 looter il-kor
4 basking rootwalla
1 prognesis
3 back to basics

4 terramorphic expanse
8island
6forest

bold=$50-60

[raharu]

Roughly. Splashing white is a good idea, though, and Undiscovered Paradise = profit.

[bokepa]

I play budget Thresh and Merfolk.

This is the cards you need:

4 Rifstone Portal
4 Mental Note
2 Rushing River


The list will be something like this:

8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Rifstone Portal

4 Nimble Moongose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 Rushing River
3 Predict
3 Mental note
2 Back to Basics
4 Swords To Plowshares

When you have money add fetches and duals, and for your birthday ask for tarmos xD

Sideboard could be expensive too, but that depends on meta.

[ForceofWill]

I play budget Thresh and Merfolk.

This is the cards you need:

4 Rifstone Portal
4 Mental Note
2 Rushing River


The list will be something like this:

8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Rifstone Portal

4 Nimble Moongose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 Rushing River
3 Predict
3 Mental note
2 Back to Basics
4 Swords To Plowshares

When you have money add fetches and duals, and for your birthday ask for tarmos xD

Sideboard could be expensive too, but that depends on meta.


If you can't get tropical islands try to get some yavimaya coasts they should only be a couple of bucks but will fix your manabase a lot.

[bokepa]

Interesting list.
Are Predicts and MMs enough to get the Portal into GY?

Predicts + Mental Note + Rushing River + Brainstorm + SDT = Portal in GY.

If its not realiable enough for you you can substitute back to basics for Compulsive Resarch but i dont think its needed.

The main problem with this budget thres is that its mana base and creatures are GY dependant so Relic of Progenitus not only owns you, it rapes you and laughs at your face.

You can be lucky and bounce it and then countertop it, but that will not happen much.

On the other hand, you dont have to be afraid of wasteland and Rushing River and Back to basics are nuts vs a lot of decks.

If there is a lot of GY hate in your area better look for alternatives, if not, this version does really good for its cost.

[Fons]

I play budget Thresh and Merfolk.

This is the cards you need:

4 Rifstone Portal
4 Mental Note
2 Rushing River


The list will be something like this:

8 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Rifstone Portal

4 Nimble Moongose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 Rushing River
3 Predict
3 Mental note
2 Back to Basics
4 Swords To Plowshares

When you have money add fetches and duals, and for your birthday ask for tarmos xD

Sideboard could be expensive too, but that depends on meta.

It's my gift to my little brother not my gift to myself.

[FoulQ]

Hello everyone, it's time for me to necro a thread.

So I am in an interesting situation. I have all the cards for thresh except for duals. Which means I have the 8 blue fetches, FoW, and tarmogoyf. However, I don't have duals. I was thinking of making a tempo oriented build because just UG I'm not sure how well that works in the CBTop version. Here is my list:

SPELLS [26]
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

CREATURES [10]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique

LAND [18]
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Breeding Pool
4 Wasteland
3 Island

SIDEBOARD [15]
4 Submerge
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Disrupt
3 Krosan Grip

If you do the math, you can tell there are 6 open spots that are usually filled by Fire//Ice and Lightning Bolt in Canadian builds. However, I don't know what the hell I can fill it with in just UG. Will I die that easily to aggro decks without the removal? What should I do?

OPTION 1: Should I just run 3 top/3 CB and side them out game 2 a lot (to negate sided in grips)?

OPTION 2: I have foothills but not heaths if I wanted to run foothills, basic forest, B2B or something, I dunno.

OPTION 3: 2 Werebear, 2 Natural Order, 1 Pro, 1 whatever? I just don't want to shell out the money for the NO and PRO that's all with this option. Though I do like this one.

Looking for suggestions, and I see above breeding pools aren't necessarily worth the investment. Eh. Also the 3 basic islands in this list make me cringe a little bit.