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Anusien
01-30-2008, 12:59 PM
Introduction
I'm kind of in love with Life from the Loam decks. I tend to like really midrangey strategies where I can easily outdraw or outcontrol my opponent. When Loam decks go off and explode all over the opponent, it makes it really easy to forget all the games where you didn't draw any gas and died in a fire. Naturally I was drawn to Team Ogre's 4C Intuition Loam deck (http://www.magiceternal.com/intuition-loam.html), although I had few opportunities to test it.

In January I wrote about all the Legacy playing I was doing, especially in the Threshold mirror. I found two things then:
A) I have to have Force of Will in my decks. It is just too easy to sit down at the table and lose to your opponent because they get Counter-Top, or blow you out first turn, or get a turn 1 Chalice or Trinisphere. Not to mention where bluffing or actually having Force of Will is your only hope against combo.
B) Counterbalance is everywhere. While you need to be able to fight Counterbalance wars, the better strategy is to have a core of your deck that can fight Counterbalance.

History
Then I saw Countryside Crusher (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MOR/EN/Card152980.jpg). That card just seemed ridiculous, and I wanted to put together a deck built around abusing it. I fell back on an Intuition core, but rebuilt the deck from the ground up. I started by wanting to include Brainstorm, Force of Will, Intuition, Tarmogoyf, Life from the Loam, and Countryside Crusher. I ended up with Daze as the 13-16th blue cards and put this together:

Decklist
// Mana
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Shriekmaw
2 Terravore

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Maze of Ith

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam


Thoughts on Countryside Crusher
The card is absolutely freaking ridiculous. I don't know whether the other 56 cards are optimal, but Crusher is definitely right. The biggest downside people attribute to it is its lack of trample, but that isn't actually an issue. It is pretty easy to get Crusher up to lethal in a few turns which forces your opponents into chumping. I went all-in on a Crusher turn 3 versus Threshold (playing around Daze), and never cast a single spell again. It ran through at least 5 creatures and won.
The supposed downside in here is that you will never draw mana again. That's not actually so bad. You have Loam and Brainstorm if you really want mana, as well as Mox Diamonds. I find it much more helpful that I don't draw lands. One of the biggest downfalls in Loam decks was that you could just fizzle because Loam insisted on such a high land count. Here we have 24 mana producing lands + Maze of Ith + 4 Mox Diamond. If I'm guaranteed to get a spell each turn, the worst I can get is Mox Diamond.

Building Around Counterbalance: Does it Work?
Well, sort of. The biggest downside is that Counterbalance makes it impossible to ever resolve Life from the Loam again. The upside is that most Threshold builds can do very little around your other engines. In my Threshold article I talked about how most Threshold decks were eschewing Pithing Needle, and that opened up a potential niche for Survival of the Fittest Threshold. Consequently if you can get Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins going, it is difficult for them to win. Many Threshold builds nowadays have little removal and it will be difficult for them to beat a growing Crusher or Terravore.
The problem is if you don't start to set up until after Counterbalance. Most of the stacks that set up your engines are designed to want Life from the Loam. That normally doesn't work; what you can end up doing is putting together something like: Volrath's Stronghold, Countryside Crusher, Countryside Crusher. You'll get a Crusher and just try to resolve it. If your Intuition resolves, the Crusher probably will as well.

Intuition Stacks
This is something I'm still struggling with. It is really easy to make a lot of small mistakes that can cripple you. Importantly, Intuition rarely goes to set up Life from the Loam + cycling land. You have enough cycling lands that you can set this up, but generally I go for something a little more potent. Right now I prefer going for Life from the Loam + Volrath's Stronghold + Countryside Crusher. The other incredibly common stack is Life from the Loam + Engineered Explosives/Tormod's Crypt + Academy Ruins. Intuition isn't Gifts Ungiven, which is both good and bad, but it's important to remember that you can just get three Crushers if you really need to.

The Mana Sucks. Yeah.
I know. The deck runs significantly better with Mox Diamond on the table than without it, simply because the mana can be tricky to string together otherwise. I'm open to suggestions.

Matchups
Still filling this section in, but I wanted to get the initial post up and get some more feedback.

zulander
01-30-2008, 01:10 PM
I don't know how much you go around the boards however the blue splash was recently put up earlier today in the Aggro Loam thread here. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6793&page=8)
Maybe it can help out a bit with regards to some more choices.

Nihil Credo
01-30-2008, 01:25 PM
The usual first-glance questions:

1) Black splash just for Stronghold/Shriekmaw. Your creatures outsize everything on board; from my extensive Aggro Loam testing, the only one that gives you fits are big fliers - mostly Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker, both coincidentally immune to Shriekmaw.
In my (RG) deck, I have a similar black splash - but it's for SB discard, which can actually solve problems the list can't deal with otherwise.

2) 16 blue spells. Eek. That is very much skirting it, particularly since if all goes well your draws will soon be replaced by Loam dredging. While hitting 5 mans isn't terribly difficult, the deck will never

3) 5 Loams. Too little maybe? Lonely Sandbar, Terravore,

4) Maze of Ith. Big creatures won't scare you. Hordes of small ones will, especially with Warren Weirding in the picture. I'd replace this with a Tabernacle - or maybe add it, and use Maze of Ith as an answer to fliers.

Anusien
01-30-2008, 01:25 PM
zulander: I hadn't seen that, but I don't know how much it changes. Having played a bunch of different Aggro Loam variations before, I intentionally stayed away from those before. The name here is probably poor; this is very much an Intuition deck and less a Loam deck. Burning Wish pushes you towards going all-in on Life from the Loam. The other cards like Seismic Assault just seem worse than creatures.

The main problem is in the Dreams and effects of that nature. It was just too easy to lose the game because you ran Dreams into a topdecked Force of Will, or because the opponent recovered faster than you did. The best case situation was when you had Dreams + a man on the table. Now if that Dreams is something else (like a counter, or a recursion engine), you win anyway.

Nihil: Black got splashed basically just for Volrath's Stronghold; Shriekmaw was an after the fact addition. However, it comes in handy more often than I think you realize. There have been situations where I needed Shriekmaw to clear off several Threshold creatures. Incidentally, it's pretty easy to set up with Shriekmaw, Volrath's Stronghold, Life from the Loam. The problem is that you need another card to fill the role of Stronghold (that card is almost the backbone of the deck). Genesis springs to mind, but I don't like how Genesis doesn't let you split up the cost and it's much more difficult to get into the graveyard. Genesis is Exitrpatable, while it's much harder to do that to Stronghold. Against Enforcer and Tombstalker, I'll either race (very doable with Crusher) or go for Maze of Ith. Is there a better removal card to run (since there has to be something)?
If you think 16 blue spells is low for Force; the first draft had Nimble Mongeese instead of Dazes and I only had 12. Yeah, that didn't work. The bare minimum to run Force is generally agreed at 16 cards, so yeah, I'm skirting it. I basically want to get into one counterwar against Threshold; either to fight off Counterbalance or to protect Intuition. After I get running, I don't think I need Force of Will as much. I could see changing those to Duress or Thoughtseize or something, but they seem less good at stopping Counterbalance, and it disrupts the curve. Plus, it would make me add another Underground Sea.
The Loam count is kind of low, but I'm not sure what to do. There are only a few potential slots to cut out of the maindeck, like Tormod's Crypt. I'm also fairly sure that I hate drawing the second Life from the Loam. On the other hand, I like that I don't have to go to Loam with every draw; sometimes you just beat down.
You could be right about Tabernacle. I'm fairly certain Maze of Ith deserves its place, but I'll definitely look into at least sideboarding it. I've been looking more at this versus Thresh, so we'll see what happens when I look at this versus Goblins.

Thanks for the help guys!

Phantom
01-30-2008, 01:39 PM
A couple of quick things off the cuff here:

- Your build seems extra susceptible to yard hate, particularly the uncounterable kind. Extirpate on loam shuts off your good Intuition stacks and Leyline seem to shut down all your card advantage engines while crippling your creature base. Other Loam decks get around this a little by running wish to fight Extirpate and a wishboard to remove Leyline. I guess Grip out of the board will help (and the rare Explosives for 4), but I'm wondering if this has hurt you in testing?

- 4 Lonely Sandbar as your only cycling lands seems dangerous to me in regards to needle and Extirpate. I know Stronghold and Academy both are other sources of advantage for you, but they are both much easier to disrupt (one crypt, wasteland, Blood Moon, B2B). I would at least make one a green cycler.

zulander
01-30-2008, 01:42 PM
zulander: I hadn't seen that, but I don't know how much it changes. Having played a bunch of different Aggro Loam variations before, I intentionally stayed away from those before. The name here is probably poor; this is very much an Intuition deck and less a Loam deck. Burning Wish pushes you towards going all-in on Life from the Loam. The other cards like Seismic Assault just seem worse than creatures.

The main problem is in the Dreams and effects of that nature. It was just too easy to lose the game because you ran Dreams into a topdecked Force of Will, or because the opponent recovered faster than you did. The best case situation was when you had Dreams + a man on the table. Now if that Dreams is something else (like a counter, or a recursion engine), you win anyway.



You and I both share the same dislike of dreams/seismic assault which is why I don't run them in either verstion (gbr or rug). For reference though here's the blue list I posted earlier in the loam thread:

Mana: 24
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland

Creatures: 11
4 Goyf
3 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher

Utility/Disruption: 11
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From the Loam
4 Force of Will

Draw: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Compulsive Research
3 Fact or Fiction

The thought of ruins + artifacts imho took the deck in a different direction, however it seems you've intended to actually stray from the direction so it may not be that bad in your build. However though, I must say that ruins + artifacts hampers the deck a bit and makes it inconsistent.

Anusien
01-30-2008, 02:08 PM
I was looking at that list earlier. Can you talk to why you prefer, say, Compulsive Research over Intuition? Intuition gives you access to 3 cards as well, but you get to pick the three.

What does Burning Wish give you besides Loam? I've looked at that before (and I'd suggest 4 Loam main with a Gamble in the side instead), and it seems like most cards there are just worse than beating down with Terravore.

How do you plan on beating Counterbalance-Top?

fetchesbasiclands
01-30-2008, 02:13 PM
I'd have to guess Wishing Reverent silence,SB Krosan Grips and 3-CC slot full of must-deal-with cards.

zulander
01-30-2008, 02:17 PM
I was looking at that list earlier. Can you talk to why you prefer, say, Compulsive Research over Intuition? Intuition gives you access to 3 cards as well, but you get to pick the three.

What does Burning Wish give you besides Loam? I've looked at that before (and I'd suggest 4 Loam main with a Gamble in the side instead), and it seems like most cards there are just worse than beating down with Terravore.

How do you plan on beating Counterbalance-Top?
As I stated earlier that I brainstormed the list rather then play test + tune it however I'll answer your questions in order:

1. Compulsive > Intuition
This one can go either way however I've felt that with the 3 Loams and 4 wishes able to get a loam active, that being able to dredge > intuition. However once you have the game almost sealed intuition is > C. Research due to the FoW/FoW/FoW stack you can grab.

2. Burning Wish -
The wish board is geared to hate on decks that give you a problem, more specifically you get cards like shatterstorm/shattering spree/tranquility/null breach/reverant silence etc... It also helps get that early loam early on as well. I view wishes as an auto 4-of because of all the flexability it brings to the table.

3. CB + top- You fight BC + top in any way you can, which will be different pre/post board. I have 3 Grips in the board to bring in and in game 1 your larger threats are 3cc so hopefully you can play around cb if you are unable to force it.

Anusien
01-30-2008, 02:40 PM
For me, it has always been important that Intuition can find singletons (like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, whatever) and Research can't.

zulander
01-30-2008, 02:46 PM
For me, it has always been important that Intuition can find singletons (like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, whatever) and Research can't.

This is true, however I've never actually needed to run either of those so it's been a moot point anyways.

thefreakaccident
01-30-2008, 04:16 PM
The deck looks interesting indeed... what does your sideboard look like?

I don't see one posted...

I don't think it is quite necessary to have shreikmaw, but I can see why you have added it (redundancy of cards over more copies of specific cards).

Creatures should not be an issue for this deck, as it seems to have a collection of some of the biggest that see play.

A sublty that seems to be unseen is that he will never draw lands again, therefore simulating a larger threat density and blue count (won't dra lands, therefore will draw either threats or blue cards).

16 blue is perfect to appease FoW in this deck.

1 loam seems a little odd, but I can see why as it can simply be tutored for.

zulander
01-30-2008, 04:25 PM
Here's a basic board:
4 Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonfire (uncounterable wish target ftw)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Tranquility
1 Life from the loam

If you play black though therapy/chainers edict/hand disruption ftw as well.

TrialByFire
01-30-2008, 04:27 PM
Here's a basic board:
4 Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonfire (uncounterable wish target ftw)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Tranquility
1 Life from the loam

If you play black though therapy/chainers edict/hand disruption ftw as well.


Th OP doesn't play Burning Wish

Deep6er
01-30-2008, 04:32 PM
That's not a good way of looking at it. Sure, IF Crusher is in play, then you're right, he'll be able to draw mostly gas, and MAYBE enough blue cards to support Force. However, that doesn't take into account what happens BEFORE Crusher comes into play, or if you don't draw Crusher.

Incidentally, for a deck that says it should focus on beating Counterbalance, you have ONE answer to a resolved Counterbalance. That doesn't sync up with what you're trying to say. With the limited Countermagic that you have, what's to stop them from just dropping Counterbalance on turn 3? You don't have threats that they need to accelerate into Counter/Top for. On that note, what about Thoughtseize? Blood Moon? You have two basics, and four Diamonds to answer that card wrecking your manabase. If Dragon Stompy were to drop a Chalice for 0, and then in the next four turns, drop a Blood Moon, you'd effectively be playing magic on whatever you had in play. God forbid them dropping Blood Moon on turn 1! Are you going to mulligan into Force + blue card?

I don't think the strategy of Loam + Countermagic is a strong one. I've tested lists like this in the past, and all they do is hinder your own gameplan by creating the illusion that you can answer more things than you actually can. Honestly, there are better ways to do this.

EDIT: This was in response to FreakAccident's post. The others posted while I was typing. That should help clear up the confusion.

zulander
01-30-2008, 04:40 PM
Th OP doesn't play Burning WishSorry, I thought he was talking to me, although he did mention the list with only one loam. Reading ftw.

Phantom
01-30-2008, 04:42 PM
Let me go more basic here:

Can someone explain to me why blue is needed in a Loam shell at all? It seems to me that in a shell of GRb, you have everything you'd ever need at your disposal. Blue adds card filtering and/or draw, limited counters, and academy ruins. I don't see any of these as worth it. The deck already has one of the best draw engines in the format (loam + cyclers) and black lets you augment that with an aggressive draw engine if you want (Confidant). Burning Wish gives you all the power of a toolbox without cluttering up your deck with situational or downright crappy one-ofs, and Academy Ruins is nice, but you can get a similar effect from Stonghold/Genesis and Witness (or simply a redundant deck and good draw engine).

Counters are the big one I would imagine. When it comes to combo hate, I think black breaks even with discard, great board hate (both discard and yard), and the devastating nature of Wish -> Therapy -> Flashback -> repeat. Other than that they're aren't a ton of single cards that Loam fears. Chalice, Mage, and CB are all pains, but having tested a ton of matches against them I'm here to tell you they are easily taken care of (Grip, discard, Wish, Deed, Explosives, Maw).

I guess what I'm saying is that it looks like you are needlessly polluting up a manabase that is already split in a lot of different directions as well as slowing down a deck with few real benefits. I guess we'll know more when some matchup data is posted, but that's what I'm thinking so far.


Edit: Goddamn you Deep6er, beat me to it. i still think I made some seperate valid points so i'm leaving it up.

TrialByFire
01-30-2008, 07:16 PM
I think he runs blue mostly for the fact that Intuition is one of the best tutors in the format and he wants to abuse it. I think you should just play blue only for Intuition, and replace the other blue cards with proactive disruption, but thats just me

Anusien
01-30-2008, 11:44 PM
Deep6er: I think you underestimate the deck's ability to roll through Counterbalance. While it's problematic, there are 8 creatures in the main that get by it and Engineered Explosives. Plus, the Tormod's Crypt slot hasn't been pulling its weight, so I've been considering replacing it with either Elf Replica or EE #2.
Regarding Chalice + Blood Moon: I will see Force of Will far more often than they will find Chalice + Blood Moon. Blood Moon itself has the potential to be problematic, but there's really no way to fix that other than Mox Diamonds and laying back on fetchlands. In other words, yes that's a concern but I don't think I can do anything about it.

Let's face it: GRb doesn't do enough. I did a lot of testing, and you had a lot of trouble beating Threshold. Your draw engine takes up a lot of time and mana, and they can easily counter your threats. The key trumps were singletons that you had a hard time finding, and while SBed Gamble helps, it doesn't do enough.
Loam has a hard time resolving through Counterbalance. Intuition is a three that sets you up instead of Burning Wish which is a 2.
The discard doesn't do enough even pre-Top, because it was too easy for them to topdeck a cantrip and string that into a counter. You couldn't take the time to set up discard + counter because then they just beat you over the face with Tarmogoyf + counters.

Nihil Credo
01-31-2008, 05:19 AM
Let's face it: GRb doesn't do enough. I did a lot of testing, and you had a lot of trouble beating Threshold. Your draw engine takes up a lot of time and mana, and they can easily counter your threats. The key trumps were singletons that you had a hard time finding, and while SBed Gamble helps, it doesn't do enough.
Loam has a hard time resolving through Counterbalance. Intuition is a three that sets you up instead of Burning Wish which is a 2.
My tip: Play maindeck Chalices. Play three maindeck Engineered Explosives. Your Thresh matchup will go through the roof, and many others will improve as well (from Sligh/Burn to anything packing Swords to Plowshares).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Blue Loam thread.