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Mooglar
01-31-2008, 11:22 AM
NinjaScroll AKA Naruto Stompy
http://www.evocacion.com/magic-the-gathering/traidores-de-kamigawa/img/ninja-de-las-horas-tardias.jpg



http://www.evocacion.com/magic-the-gathering/tempestad/img/pergamino-maldito.jpg

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Trinket_Mage.jpg


Yea! Ninja Scroll, Been working on this for a while, me and my friend anyways testing against different matchups so without further ado here's the decklist

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
16 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 [BOK] Higure, the Still Wind
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [BOK] Mistblade Shinobi
2 [10E] Ornithopter
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [OV] Cursed Scroll
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle


This isn't a theme deck but acts like one in a sense that most of your creatures have flash, protection or ninjutsu.

[B]Card Explanations:

Academy Ruins - Brings back all your fetchable artifacts and reuses them including EE, Ornithopter, SoLS, Scroll, crypt and needle. Whether they get killed or countered or blown up in case of ee this land has to be here for the fact that it reuses and creates Ca vs your opponent.

Island - Duh

Riptide Laboratory - Reuses our wizards including Trinket mage and Venser, saves them early game vs removal and creates CA late game by searching ur deck for all ur arts or bouncing all of your opponets creatures.

Tundra - In here for EE@2 to kill goyfs, Cb's, Bob,s Survivals etc etc

Ninja of the Deep Hours - MVP any day of the week uncountarable 2 mana 2/2 ophidian.
http://photoblog.eztools.com/f/8/0/7/4280807/2.jpg
He rides the thopters to STealz your secrets

Higure, The Still Wind - as a 1 of to seal the late game by searching the remaining ninjas and making them all unblockable

Trinket Mage - Total nuts to search for all your answers needle, crypt, scroll, EE and is reused with Riptide Lab.

http://db.img.v4.skyrock.com/db4/tenten-haku/pics/750352578_small.jpg
Yea thats a cursed scroll shes holding GGs Sir

Mistblade Shinobi - as a 1 of to be searched by higure and can randomly help out by bouncing opponets creatures, and hes a total surprise.

Ornithopter - turn 1 thopter turn 2 ninja of the deep =), also get searched by mage to stabilize and recover, blocks mom, equips SoLs and swings and recurs shit.

Kira, Great Glass Spinner - as a 1 of that randomly wins by give all your dudes protections from all spells and abilities, just for variety at an arguable slot but would like to add more
Shadow Clones All Your Dudes GG
http://www.animefansonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/shadow-clone-001.jpg

Venser - Total Nuts, hes got flash so he might as well be a ninja, gets reused with Riptide Lab, wins Tempo Wars, helps gain CA, boucnes annoying stuff eg. chalice, trinisphere, smokestack, deed, goyfs, cb's
http://dhost.info/mrniceash/wp-content/Photos/Naruto%20CapShots/Kakashi_Sharingan.JPG
Manipulating Spells, and blowing you out of the water

Spells:::

Force of WIll - Mono blue control Duh, Easy to support, wins games, helps with board position.

Brainstorm - helpful digger with and totally amazing with fetches

Ponder - Turn 1 cantrip that helps you curve out, gets you out of mana screw/flood, helps draw answers and its 1 mana -)

Daze - 3rd most important counterspell, if they dont play around it its countering spells, if they play around it its already doing its job and winning you tempo.

Spell Snare - Very important... Counters so many things uncluding Goyfs, Bobs, Counterbalances, Counterspells, Survival, Hymn to tourach, Loam, Devastating Dreams to good to pass up.

SoLS - total nuts, protection from ghastly demis, smother, StP, brings back your dudes, flies orni to victory, brings back your lost dudes from the grave.

Fetchable Artifacts:

Cursed Scroll - Grabbed by Trinket mage to burn all the bad creatures, wins against landstill if left untouched burns out hippies and wins against slow control decks.

Tormods Crypt - ichorid is annoying, loam is annoying ... stops both and is reusable with ruins

Engineered Explosives - TOTAL NUTS!!!!! gets rid of so many problems and with the help of tundra is so versatile, Also stops ichorid and beats down ETW Combo, kills goyfs, Kills legacy gG

Pithing Needle - SOooooo goood. Kills Survival, Belcher, Top, other annoying shit, wasteland, port, factories, monasteries.


SIDEBOARD

Blue Elemental Blast - Against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh... Helps tremendously until SoLS comes online.

Back To basics - Stops Thresh from going nuts every turn, shuts off landstill, blows out truffle shuffle, Rock, Gifts Rock, Stax, D&T so many decks use duel lands and non basics its insane.

Echoing Truth - Extra Bounce against annoying stuff like ETW tokens, chalices, ichorid zombies, ichorids a bunch of other stuff.

Misdirection - Testing it out against Pikula and swords, also helps as 2 more Forces against fast combo - Iggy pop, tes, Tendrils Combo

Threads of disloyalty - Why Yes i would like to borrow your goyf permanently, takes goyfs bobs welders dont want those titans coming early now do we.

Stifle - Helps against Decree, and storm combo, belcher and many other things.


Matchups:

Thresh, Baseruption, Counter3Hold - Slighty Favorable

Pre-Board, You have cantrips, Fow, counterspells and EE at 2, life gain recursion, shadow clones and a bunch of dudes. Their Counterbalance has no effect on you with your erratic manabase and they sure dont have many 3's on their list of spells.

Post Board - Very Favorable, ok so post board you get back to basics and you gain threads, ALL GOYFS are belong to me >_>
sam deal except now all your shit says gg thresh.

Landstill

Pre-board About 50-50, You have cursed scroll main which totally wrecks them, if they run humilty and crucible lock start being more happy cause scroll just stomps them. if they run the deed, fact, stifle version it might a bit tougher but you can needle their monasteries and crypt them a couple of times get out a venser and beat them up.

Post-Board - you gain back to basics and stifle against deeds and ee's its becomes a lot easier, if u can keep an ee at 2 for landstill.

More mathcups coming im tired of writing ><


As for Now this is my friends list gosumog and he can explain his differences >_>

// Lands
11 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [BOK] Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [10E] Ornithopter
3 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [OV] Cursed Scroll
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

gosumog
01-31-2008, 11:32 AM
=]. the extra EE, SoLS and the infamous scroll were my idea. all i did was cut the other ninjas for more kiras. kira is great with sword, and decent all around and i didnt see higure pulling his weight even tho he dodges bolt and is unblockable, they would be burning your deep hours away anyway, who are who u really want getting thru. id rather save those slots for some kiras to shield and beat some a$$

zulander
01-31-2008, 11:57 AM
I think ornithopters are an incorrect choice. I'd replace them with flying men or something so that your turn 2 ninjas of hours can come in all the time and draw that card.

This thread gets a ton of style points though, great pictures lol!

p.s 2 of the 3 cards in the begining aren't pictured :(

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 12:13 PM
The thing about thopter is that hes a turn 1 play that doesnt hinder your mana so you can spellsnare, ponder, brainstorm and hes also fethcable if you need late game blockers. The other advantage is that he blocks lackey all day and goose for a couple of turns. He also blocks any attackers that have given protection through Mother of runes. Hes pretty amazing Imo

zulander
01-31-2008, 12:30 PM
To me though he's more of a "don't let their 1/1 swing!!" card as opposed to "This guy helps me win by attacking" card. I think having the latter is strictly superior in the current metagame. If it wasn't then walls.dec would be on fire.

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 01:30 PM
Hmmm ill take ur word for it and try out flying men, im not sold on them yet though >_>

Also trying voidmage prodigy since has double uses as far as tmage and venser are wizards

zulander
01-31-2008, 01:42 PM
Also, why did you guys pick ninja's over rogue/faerie/wizards?

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 02:01 PM
their uncountarable, deep hours keeps up the card advantage, shinobi is a tech trap, higure wins the late game, they fit the mono blue control/sligh deal, keep up with CA and tempo while supplying damage and win the game. Sort of like waht morphling does, saying all ur removal spells are useless take 5 every turn and i dont waste a single spell on the board.

Finn
01-31-2008, 02:27 PM
I have always wanted to try Thalakos Seer with ninjas.

Thalakos Seer
UU
Creature - Thalakos Wizard
P/T: 1/1
Rules Text (Oracle): Shadow (This creature can block or be blocked by only creatures with shadow.)
When Thalakos Seer leaves play, draw a card.

Do you find yourself wanting extra card draw often enough to pay extra for the guy that won't even hit?

Zach Tartell
01-31-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm going to guess that the REB's in the board are, in fact, BEB's?

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 02:41 PM
Yes haha sorry about that i changed them ty

Thalakos seer looks, i dont even have an opinion on him shaky i guess, he give you solid Ca when he leaves play for you ninja and u draw the card regardless. But is he good enough to replace flying men or thopter/ voidmage prodigy

fetchesbasiclands
01-31-2008, 03:25 PM
I suggest Sage of Epityr.It's a nice one-drop and I really like its synergy With Ninja of the Deep Hours.

Shtriga
01-31-2008, 03:36 PM
I should play this deck just because it's about naruto :) should be shippuden though tbh

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 05:38 PM
Sage looks good as a 1 drop with a good reusable ability but has no evasion whatsoever, if i had a choice i would use sage owl just because of flying.

And no i haven't seen any of the new shippuden i got lazy and i hear its pretty lame dragonball z kind of lame lol

vigilante
01-31-2008, 05:40 PM
kira is great with sword
As in, Kira is great when you pay 4 to attempt to equip SoLaS to her/it, only to have her Plowed/Smothered/Ghastly Demised/burned/whatever'd in response? Sure, you end up with a pretty solid creature if you do manage to pull it off, but having to turn off her pseudo-Shroud ability for the turn (and pay double the equip cost) to do so doesn't seem so great.

As a blue aggro deck, comparisons to Faerie Stompy are inevitable, too. This deck has Ninja dudes; FS has undercosted fat flyers (Sea Drakes/Serendib Efreets). This has cantrips; FS has Chalices of the Void. This has more countermagic; FS has more threats (more creatures, more equipment). This has no acceleration, but a stable mana base; FS has an explosive, but shaky, mana base. None of these comments are to say which one of the decks is better than the other....I'm just pointing out the similarities and differences.

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 05:45 PM
lol i just realized he said that >_>, yea but kira is really good either way imo especially against goblins, and any deck using swords because then every creature becomes a threat, SoLS is good when you dont have kira, i only run 1 so ive never had the counteraction of having them both in play >_<.

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 08:10 PM
As a blue aggro deck, comparisons to Faerie Stompy are inevitable, too. This deck has Ninja dudes; FS has undercosted fat flyers (Sea Drakes/Serendib Efreets). This has cantrips; FS has Chalices of the Void. This has more countermagic; FS has more threats (more creatures, more equipment). This has no acceleration, but a stable mana base; FS has an explosive, but shaky, mana base. None of these comments are to say which one of the decks is better than the other....I'm just pointing out the similarities and differences.

Thanks for pointing this out and i totally agree with you, the way i see it is it has the stable mana base and catrips of thresh with the fast speed of stompy, although not as fast as a turn 1 sea drake, but helps against such speed with more countermagic.

The Slots are tight and the list is anything but perfect but i'm trying to find the perfect balance between creatures and spells since running equipments requires more creatures, Atm my current list that i'm testing has the face of sligh 20 lands 20 creatures 20 spells while trying to keep more than 2 cards in my hand most games which is tough.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
14 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [BOK] Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
4 [ON] Voidmage Prodigy
2 [TSB] Flying Men
1 [BOK] Higure, the Still Wind
1 [BOK] Mistblade Shinobi

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast

3 open slots on sideboard, not sure what to put in, other than that the mainboard slots are tight as i run 61 cards.
I want to find some good tech trap creatures, what i mean by that is something like venser but im unable to get anything at a low cost, mono blue creatures under 3 mana don't really offer any big impact on the game aside from voidmage prodigy which im trying out currently.

I added 2 flying men instead of thopters because of their versatility of being Fow/Misdirection Food and at the same time killing 1/1 drops as well as x/1 drops, bob and such.

Thx for all the help guys, im planning to take this to my next 1.5 which sports around 30 people with the metagame consisting of thresh landstill and goblins with some random combo decks and want to fine tune to the best it can be by then =)

Mooglar
02-01-2008, 07:27 AM
Most of the time your ninjas will get stped and cursed scroll is just plain good especially late game. And since youre go all out on combo and aggro it seems to me that cursed scroll is amazing in those matchups.

I Run 1 kira and 2 SoLS and i have never seen it a problem because i never get both of them in play or i just won't equip, cause if they run 4c baseruption with smotheer, ghastly demise/stp ill just keep my creatures unequipped and make use of the virtual card advantage im gaining =)

Auriok steelshaper is white >_>, wer mono blue...

also if i was to splash a color i would go with black since that color has good spot removal/grave hate and more ninjas =)

Drathro
02-01-2008, 01:50 PM
I'm usually a lurker on these boards, but this deck seemed pretty fun, so I tried it out. Two quick thoughts:

1. I like the build without the Scrolls better - with the Scrolls, I found it was hard to get down to one card, and I always wanted the mana for something else. This could just be a case of playstyle preference on my part.

2. Several times, I needed just one more land, but I couldn't fetch out an artifact land with Trinket Mage. I suggest substituting one Seat of the Synod (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Seat_of_the_Synod) for one of your Islands. Yes, it hurts Daze a little, but it makes Trinket Mage better by helping to cast Venser and pay the Ninjutsu cost on Higure.

Mooglar
02-01-2008, 05:50 PM
I'm usually a lurker on these boards, but this deck seemed pretty fun, so I tried it out. Two quick thoughts:

1. I like the build without the Scrolls better - with the Scrolls, I found it was hard to get down to one card, and I always wanted the mana for something else. This could just be a case of playstyle preference on my part.

2. Several times, I needed just one more land, but I couldn't fetch out an artifact land with Trinket Mage. I suggest substituting one Seat of the Synod (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Seat_of_the_Synod) for one of your Islands. Yes, it hurts Daze a little, but it makes Trinket Mage better by helping to cast Venser and pay the Ninjutsu cost on Higure.


Yea for sure i will definetly replace 1 island with a seat i totaly forgot about that =), also i usually end up fecthing EE with tmage or needle depending on the situtation and cursed scroll for late game.



So You are siding out Ornithopters? They are nearly useless without equip.. Or do they remain in deck for ninjutsu?


If you see the updated list a couple of posts down it has flying men instead of thopters seems they seem more lethal than just 0/2's
I'll update the main list later i gotta leave for work in a sec




EDIT: No CB/SDT combo? I know that it is not that useful without fetches, but..

In the beginning i tried this out but i found it to useless because of my mana base being so erratic, what i mean by that is that it really starts at 3 the cc anyways then going to 4 and 5 with some 1's and 2's and i found it really lame since i never really countered very many spells so i ended up taking them out.

Mooglar
02-01-2008, 06:03 PM
One more question - why no Cities of Traitors/Anc. Tombs? I always thought of it as no-brainer with SoFI.. And no U. Jitte?

I've not tried a 8tomb list because i dont run enough equipment/artifacts e.g chalice trinisphere to take advantage of it, it also hurts daze and i have some double blue creatures, i also runs 1 mana spells and by then how would my list be different or better than fairy stompy. I'm already hurt by aggro and dont want to take any more damage from my lands. Fetchlands become useless after 8tomb and i need to fetch my 1 tundra for ee @2


Auriok just seems bad i only run 2 equipments and even then hes a 1/1 for 2 and he pumps ur knights i dont run knights.


I tried jitte in place of SoLS but it seemed to me that SoLS had a bigger impact on the game gaining life pro STP and bringing back dead dudes is much better than having a faster clock for a control deck.

Thx all i gottta go to work ill test later too

bigredmeanie
02-01-2008, 06:12 PM
Ninja of Deep Hours isn't a good creature in legacy. A deck that is depending on him for card advantage won't draw many cards. If you are lucky he will connect 1 time, but not more. Whats worse when you ninja him in and they kill him you just gave away more tempo than you'll gain back the rest of that game. Also, if you can't ninja him in he totally sucks w/o evasion. Just about every deck will kill him withought even trying.

So basically you sacrifice large amounts of tempo to potentially draw 1 card. I'd rather play Touch of Brilliance, at least with that spell I know what I'm getting and it doesn't cost me tempo.

Nova Cha.. Stingmoogie
02-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Why is flying men in here, "lethal" ? This is Naruto, first turn threat and you get to stack your deck. OR , flying men, go.... They don't fly in Naruto, they tech you out with *sharingan* and jutsus.

Oh look, trinket scryed for my other blocker i need, when your only at two life and my ninjas swings For The Win. or... Flying men.... Control deck vs aggro.

Nova Cha.. Stingmoogie
02-01-2008, 07:43 PM
Excuse my double posting, Ninja not legacy ^.^ . 2/2 for 2, pretty standard there, oh look i happened to draw brainstorm (card). Hmm, my deep hours counterbalances for four, interesting note (fill in four mana casting "legacy" cards here).

Yes, counterbalance isn't in the deck list in question, however trinket mage and island are.

Mooglar
02-01-2008, 10:37 PM
Ninja of Deep Hours isn't a good creature in legacy. A deck that is depending on him for card advantage won't draw many cards. If you are lucky he will connect 1 time, but not more. Whats worse when you ninja him in and they kill him you just gave away more tempo than you'll gain back the rest of that game. Also, if you can't ninja him in he totally sucks w/o evasion. Just about every deck will kill him withought even trying.

So basically you sacrifice large amounts of tempo to potentially draw 1 card. I'd rather play Touch of Brilliance, at least with that spell I know what I'm getting and it doesn't cost me tempo.

This happens to be true, the tempo loss is very big but on the other hand you run 10 counterspells to prevent your dudes from dying, he will connect on the first try because its a total surprise, the other times it will be a bit harder, remember that you are potentially playing a MUC deck, how many MUC decks still run ophidian and hes a 1/3 and he draws you sooo many cards, at least a 2/2 will kill stuff, other than that i will counter everything thats mostly a threat to me.

I've been thinking of adding like 2 more tundras to splash for STP, but haven't tested the idea yet.

It causes lots of tempo but if it works and with counters it should it gains more tempo that it loses, especially against slower decks that rely on counters get them through the game.

Metaknight
02-01-2008, 11:12 PM
so i built this and tested it a few time, and found that you need to use white for more than the EE, like i'm thinking swords...seems good. Also drop the crap out of Higure, the Still Wind, Mistblade Shinobi, and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, they weren't worth playing in my testing, they don't do enough, and i would much rather be playing something else. It might just be me, but i never wanted to draw them. I guess the biggest thing is i wanted a second color in the deck, even though that takes away for the mono-Blue stompy aspect, I think it really needs it, and if it helps, i did some screwing around, and this is what i can up with:

U/B Naruto Stompy

land//
3x underground sea
4x polluted delta
2x Riptide reactor (freakin nuts with Trinket mage)
9x island
1x swamp
1x academy ruins

creatures//
4x ninja of deep hours
3x ornithopter (tested flying man, and thopter is better)
3x Dark Confidant
3x Trinket mage

spells//
4x force of will
4x daze
3x ponder
3x brainstorm
2x cursed scroll
4x smother
2x Sensei's divining Top
2x Engineered Explosive
1x Pithing needle
1x Tormod's crypt
(yes, that is 61 card, but it's still very consistent)

Sideboard//
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Stifle
3xCounterbalance
3x Back to basics (doesn't hurt you as much as you might think)
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top

thats the list that i came up with, i don't know if it helps or not, but it has been doing well on MWS (so i guess that's that not that reliant, but my testing partner is half way across the state right now). this also changes the stompy aspect, because this list is much more control, but in a deck that only originally ran 15 creatures, and from what i could tell wasn't very stompy, i guess that's not that big of a change, just my two cents.

chokin
02-02-2008, 04:29 AM
so i built this and tested it a few time, and found that you need to use white for more than the EE, like i'm thinking swords...seems good. Also drop the crap out of Higure, the Still Wind, Mistblade Shinobi, and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, they weren't worth playing in my testing, they don't do enough, and i would much rather be playing something else. It might just be me, but i never wanted to draw them. I guess the biggest thing is i wanted a second color in the deck, even though that takes away for the mono-Blue stompy aspect, I think it really needs it, and if it helps, i did some screwing around, and this is what i can up with:

U/B Naruto Stompy

land//
3x underground sea
4x polluted delta
2x Riptide reactor (freakin nuts with Trinket mage)
9x island
1x swamp
1x academy ruins

creatures//
4x ninja of deep hours
3x ornithopter (tested flying man, and thopter is better)
3x Dark Confidant
3x Trinket mage

spells//
4x force of will
4x daze
3x ponder
3x brainstorm
2x cursed scroll
4x smother
2x Sensei's divining Top
2x Engineered Explosive
1x Pithing needle
1x Tormod's crypt
(yes, that is 61 card, but it's still very consistent)

Sideboard//
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Stifle
3xCounterbalance
3x Back to basics (doesn't hurt you as much as you might think)
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top

thats the list that i came up with, i don't know if it helps or not, but it has been doing well on MWS (so i guess that's that not that reliant, but my testing partner is half way across the state right now). this also changes the stompy aspect, because this list is much more control, but in a deck that only originally ran 15 creatures, and from what i could tell wasn't very stompy, i guess that's not that big of a change, just my two cents.

Why would you run 4 Ninja of Deep Hour and 3 Confidant when clearly Confidant is superior. His draw is unconditional in that he gets a card every turn no matter what unless removed. Ninja needs an unblocked attacker, to be unblocked, or costs 4 and keeps swinging.

Cursed Scroll does not belong in a deck that will be using this much draw(cantrips, Confidant, Ninja). Also, you don't need 2s of any of those 1cc artifacts because of Trinket Mage. And drop a Riptide because it doesn't provide colored mana and stays tapped under B2B.

Brainstorm and Ponder should go to 4 each.

Ornithopter does nothing for the deck except provide a nearly unblockable creature for Ninja. I suggest a card with at least 1 power, or some Jitte.

This deck seems to roll over to a resolved Pyroclasm(which is NOT unheard of in UGr Thresh). So with a count of "threats"(2 power creatures) being 10 currently(12 if you include scroll), I am not seeing a strong amount of pressure being applied. Duress or Thoughtseize could help put down some pressure in removing answers instead of reacting to them(counters). Otherwise I see no reason to play this over UWB Fish or Thresh.

How does this deck do against the currently popular Dragon Stompy? Do you just get lucky and have Daze/Force in hand when they drop 3Sphere? And what do you do when there is a Dragon/Slogger/Rider/any 4cc+ beater in your face? Smother is fine and all, but you may want to consider a removal spell that can hit more than that. Splashing White for Swords might be a good choice, but then you should probably just play Fish.

Metaknight
02-02-2008, 03:00 PM
@chokin: I ran four ninja, and three Bobs to try and maintain the decks integrity. Cursed Scroll gets used for more than you think it would with the amount of cantrips and bob. The three/three split between ponder and brainstorm is just fine, and works well, there is no need to make them four of's. Ornithopter serves as more than just a ninjutsu enabler, it also serves as a free crit for first turn answer to lacky that can chump all day with an academy ruins in play. pyroclasm is solved by many ways, one is countering it, or maybe not over extending your field, seems like common sense. Finally, i haven't tested extensively againt dragon stompy, but at first i had a two/two split of Smother and ghastly Demise, that can handle anything in DS. also, i splashed black, because i like Blue/Black, better than Blue/White, but feel free to splash any color you want, i just like the black one.

Mooglar
02-02-2008, 10:51 PM
but at first i had a two/two split of Smother and ghastly Demise, that can handle anything in DS I'm confused about this statement, the only thing that smother can handle is magus of the moon, and you're only running 1 swamp which looks like a bad idea, ghastly demise can take almost anything in ds true but still with only 1 basic swamp its gonna be pretty hard,

My new list

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
12 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [MR] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [BOK] Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [ON] Voidmage Prodigy
1 [BOK] Mistblade Shinobi
2 [10E] Ornithopter

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast


Im splashing white for Swords since in realized how bad i need especially against burn and goblins, (Goblin piledriver is pro blue) yea totally owns me, i tested against death and taxes yesterday and it was pretty much 50/50 we both have tricks but you gotta watch out for catacalysm cause it totally rapes you and its hard to recover after, SoLS has been amazing in all my matchups and scroll really helps in the sligh/d&t matchups.

Goyf Sligh totally wrecks this deck as does burn, pre board anyways all the matchups have been preboard and i have not doen post board except against thresh and landstill.

Im confident that with sb the burn and goblin matchups becomes a lot better especially with the inclusion of swords maindecked.



Ornithopter does nothing for the deck except provide a nearly unblockable creature for Ninja. I suggest a card with at least 1 power, or some Jitte

i mostly have to disagree with this statement, i've tried out flying men and thopter is just plain better as i said earlier he can be fetched, dropped turn 1 against lackey and doesnt hinder your mana when you play him, he comes back with ruins also which is rly good when your in a tight situation. or when you want infinite blockers so you can scroll your opponet to death.

Mooglar
02-02-2008, 10:53 PM
but at first i had a two/two split of Smother and ghastly Demise, that can handle anything in DS I'm confused about this statement, the only thing that smother can handle is magus of the moon, and you're only running 1 swamp which looks like a bad idea, ghastly demise can take almost anything in ds true but still with only 1 basic swamp its gonna be pretty hard,

My new list

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
12 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [MR] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [BOK] Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [BOK] Higure, The Still Wind
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [ON] Voidmage Prodigy
1 [BOK] Mistblade Shinobi
2 [10E] Ornithopter

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast


Im splashing white for Swords since in realized how bad i need especially against burn and goblins, (Goblin piledriver is pro blue) yea totally owns me, i tested against death and taxes yesterday and it was pretty much 50/50 we both have tricks but you gotta watch out for catacalysm cause it totally rapes you and its hard to recover after, SoLS has been amazing in all my matchups and scroll really helps in the sligh/d&t matchups.

Goyf Sligh totally wrecks this deck as does burn, pre board anyways all the matchups have been preboard and i have not doen post board except against thresh and landstill.

Im confident that with sb the burn and goblin matchups becomes a lot better especially with the inclusion of swords maindecked.



Ornithopter does nothing for the deck except provide a nearly unblockable creature for Ninja. I suggest a card with at least 1 power, or some Jitte

i mostly have to disagree with this statement, i've tried out flying men and thopter is just plain better as i said earlier he can be fetched, dropped turn 1 against lackey and doesnt hinder your mana when you play him, he comes back with ruins also which is rly good when your in a tight situation. or when you want infinite blockers so you can scroll your opponent to death.

Also did a split within my manabase with 1 tundra 1 plains 1 ancient den since it be fetched via tmage and the plains can be taken against wasteland.

Metaknight
02-03-2008, 12:31 AM
smother takes out magus, and demise anything else thats a threat. The one basic swamp is all you need seeing as how you only have ten black spells, all of which only require one black source. it enough combined with the sea's.

chokin
02-03-2008, 03:54 AM
@Meta - So not overextending means you will only be playing 2-3 creatures at a time? 2-3 out of...13? You can't save them all. At most 1. That's assuming you led Thopter(t1), Ninja and Thopter(t2 jutsu), Mage/Confidant(t3). Maybe you're not dropping more than 1-2...in which Thresh's creatures simply outclass yours.

@Mooglar - So if Ornithopter is a Ninjutsu enabler, and a chump with Ruins, why is he a 2 of in a deck that runs 4 Deep Hour? You might as well be using Thieving Magpie since you're relying on either being lucky or using Mage to fetch him. Either way, without an early Thopter, you're stuck with threats coming down turns 3 and 4. Fighting through Thresh's counters and burn, I don't think you'll be able to keep a ninja down unless it's Higure. Fire nails every creature, as does Bolt. Thats 7 removal plus the threat of at least Goyf and Goose.

If you manage to 1-for-1 trade counters, you'll be losing men to the burn spells before turn 4 in which you can use Venser.

Really guys, if looks like you want to play WUB Fish but are unwilling to use 3 colors and anything but ninjas. Basically, you're running a Fish shell with creatures that aren't as efficient or cheap as the ones in Fish. Your threats come down inconsistently in the early turns(1 and 2), but more reliably turns 4 and 5. In Legacy, most aggro aims to win around turn 3-5. Obviously this isn't true in hybrids, but when your threats are coming down at the same time The Rock's are, but are nowhere near as efficient, you have a problem.

Also, Brainstorm is one of the best draw spells in Legacy. Neglecting to play is is not wise.

Mooglar
02-03-2008, 07:46 AM
@Mooglar - So if Ornithopter is a Ninjutsu enabler, and a chump with Ruins, why is he a 2 of in a deck that runs 4 Deep Hour? You might as well be using Thieving Magpie since you're relying on either being lucky or using Mage to fetch him. Either way, without an early Thopter, you're stuck with threats coming down turns 3 and 4. Fighting through Thresh's counters and burn, I don't think you'll be able to keep a ninja down unless it's Higure. Fire nails every creature, as does Bolt. Thats 7 removal plus the threat of at least Goyf and Goose. Right but since i am playing aggro control ill be countering spells in the beginning, fixing my draws via ponder/brainstorm and only playing creatures when i have enough mana to protect them, remmeber wer not going for turn 2 or 3 kills here, the deck generally plays as a control deck and then switches to aggro late game, just like thresh which generally spends its first few turns playing top,cb, brainstorm and ponder to fix its draws and then drops a goyf/bob and wins.
Thopter is good but just because i have a chance to ninjutsu ninja turn 2 doesnt meant im going to unless i have a fow, hes good late game just as good as he is early game, yes he blocks lacky yes he enables ninjas and yes he is fetchable, but i dont want 4 of them to clutter my hand.


If you manage to 1-for-1 trade counters, you'll be losing men to the burn spells before turn 4 in which you can use Venser. depending on my matchups vs aggro ill stay back and counter spells vs control ill go and start playing the aggro game, the deck can switch from on to the other with plentiful counters and creatures.



Really guys, if looks like you want to play WUB Fish but are unwilling to use 3 colors and anything but ninjas. Basically, you're running a Fish shell with creatures that aren't as efficient or cheap as the ones in Fish. Your threats come down inconsistently in the early turns(1 and 2), but more reliably turns 4 and 5. In Legacy, most aggro aims to win around turn 3-5. Obviously this isn't true in hybrids, but when your threats are coming down at the same time The Rock's are, but are nowhere near as efficient, you have a problem.
Right but wer not playing fish, fish focuses on getting out early beaters, protection via mom and counterspells & vial and removal via swords and EE
We're generally playing a control deck that want to stabilize and gain board position while countering threats and dropping maybe 1 or 2 creatures early game and then go off and switch to aggro late game, Cursed scroll is also immensly helpful here
It is unfortunate that without a splash of color wer missing some of the best removal in the format, swords/smother/demise but at the same time we have consistency, wasteland is useless, and we have B2B on the sb which i sb almost against every deck.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
13 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MR] Ancient Den
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [BOK] Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [ON] Voidmage Prodigy
2 [10E] Ornithopter
2 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [OV] Cursed Scroll
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [5E] Force Spike
3 [U] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TE] Chill


Trying this out atm, i tested some games on magic-league with a guy from here named georgegorge or something like that, he helped me test out 3 matchups, Dragon Stompy, Dreadnaught stifle/goyf/loam engine, and ugb Thresh

Against DS

Game one he gets rly mana screwed with 1 mox a ssg which drops a chalice, i wait till i get a tmage and fetch ee, he drops magus but i force it it ends there

Game two i sb in 3 BEB's which help out immensily, he drops mountain passes the drops another mountain drops chalice for 1 which i counter, i drop tmage and thopter, he goes for flametounge kavu which i counter with beb, next turn get ninja and start drawing cards by then in my mind its all over i have 4 islands and plenty of counterspells, drops trini which i venser followed by slogger next turn and jitte i counter both, dont rly remebr what happens next but i win.

Against Dreadnaught/stifle/goyf - Game on i win dont rly remeber why he drops mongrel and a mongoose i crypt him with tmage, his loam is gone i get a SoLS and equip gain some life and gain back dudes, we sit for a while i get scroll and win off of it.

Game two he gets stifle naught turn 2, hes on the play i finally get enough mana for venser but he and can block enough dmg from dreadnaught to live but he drops factory and wins.

Game three he gets 1 trop 3 wastelands and then finally 2 more tops late game, we stall for a while him having vinlasher kudzu and wild mongrel which both start beating me for a lot i finally get tmage and get needle naming mongrel and drop a cursed scroll, he drops landstill in the hopes of drawing lands, he sits there with 2 mongrels and kuzdu, i scroll both hounds and stabilize at 1 life (seems to happen alot) i pop the standstill by playing brainstorm while he sits at 7 life from scroll, i finally top deck meloku and protect it from swords by playing swords he drops goosex2 factory goyf x2 but its to late i scoop my lands and block all his dudes and swing for the win.

Against Ugb Thresh
Game one - i Lose due to him having goyf and i cant equip my SoLS because he smothers my dude in response, i topdeck nothing and he wins not a lot of stuff going on this game.

Game two he stays at 2 lands with a top i get a tmage through which gets explosives, he finally tops a land fetches and smothers my tmage, i drop a SoLS and get to equip another guy in play and start swinging in, i venser his cb at eot drop ee for 2 and blow up his goyf and swing again, drop a scroll wer at a stalemate i scroll him to death.

Game 3 he sb's grips against me he gets ahead on me i take his fgoyf via threads and swing with ninja he grips and 2 for 1's me, he drops bob some turns later with and starts drawing card i drop scroll he has bob and goyf he swings with goyf and bob im at 3 life while hes at 9 i have venser i attempt to scroll bob but fail block goyf and take 2 going down to 1, i topdeck ancient den for my ee he cant counter it and i blow up his board, i scroll him ge goes to 7 topdecks geese and plays it i get a land and have no answers to gesse ><.

EDIT: Just played against MUC and beat it 2-0 it ran FOF, Meloku, propaganda, fow, cspell top and a bunch of other stuff, beat 2-0 via scroll =)

Its not very detailed im tired and dont rememebr much =/

gosumog
02-06-2008, 08:58 AM
i gotta stick with 2x EE (when i think legacy creatures, i think 2 drops) and i was thinkin of a new shell for the deck

counter/top combo with mistblade ninja, CRYSTAL SHARD, T mage , ornithopter =) use more cantrips and counters and have 1x Sofi and Sols that u can dig for fairly easily, i can see a fun sideboard... this list might give bonesplitter a good home =D