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Phantom
01-31-2008, 12:41 PM
I was going to make this my CaNGD entry, but it wasn't quite original enough. I did test and tweak the hell out of it though, and came up with a damn good Loam deck, so I figured I'd share.

[CENTER]We Do Not Sow


Table of Contents



1.0 Introduction and Backround
2.0 The List

2.1 The Cards
2.2 The Sideboard
2.3 Cards Previously Tested
2.4 Other Cards Considered
3.0 Playing the Deck
4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses
5.0 The Matchups
6.0 Conclusion, Thanks and Lingering Questions



1.0 Intro

The deck looks fairly unoriginal I guess, but is really a synergistic convergence of a Loam engine, a recursion engine, and a versatile removal suite.

I've played Loam for quite some time. RG was fantastic, except for the unacceptable matchup against combo. RGb helped, but I always felt the deck was going in too many directions, and while Burning Wish was an amazing card, it ate up board space. I had never seen anyone go just straight GB with a Loam deck, and I knew that cutting red wouldn't help my aggro matchup, but I decided to try it. I quickly found it very competitive with the best decks in the meta and went to work.

As for the title, House Greyjoy is the principal noble house on the Iron Islands; many lesser ironborn houses are sworn to them. Their seat is at Pyke. Their sigil is a golden Kraken on a black field, and their words are "We Do Not Sow."



2.0 The List




Here is the list I tested:

// Lands
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [TSP] Swamp (1)
4 Bayou
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Wild Mongrel
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
1 Powder Keg
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [US] Duress
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 2 [LRW] Liliana Vess
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

(Edit, I have since replaced 2 Vess and 2 Maw with 4 Plagues)



[B]2.1 The Cards





Draw Engine and Recursion

4 Life From The Loam and 5 Cycling Lands- Pretty clear, but I will say that I designed the deck to function well without Loam.
Volrath's Stronghold and Genesis - Both recur creatures. The split is to dodge hate. All I can say is they are great.


Creature Base

4 Tarmogoyf - I would love to have built a competitive deck that didn't have Goyf in it, but then again I want a blowjob from Christy Turlington.
4 Terravore - I originally imagined running 2-3 since they aren't that great without Loam going. I was wrong. They are good without Loam going thanks to the presence of Fetches, Wastes, Manlands and Cyclers. Also, they aren't GOOD with Loam (like Mongrel) they are unreal.
3 Wild Mongrel - Very good early game and with Loam. Just insane synergy with Genesis, Goyf, Loam, Terravore, and most of the deck. Split with Shade because they serve such different roles.
3 Nantuko Shade - Very good late game and pretty much independent of an active Loam. I don't run four thanks to the mana requirements and crappy synergy with my recursion.
3 Shriekmaw - Insane synergy with Genesis/Stronghold. Only a two of because it's 5cc and crappy against some decks.

- Note that all my creatures can kill an opposing Goyf. That's not an accident.


Discard

4 Thoughtseize - Best Discard Spell Ever.
4 Duress - I'm sure some will suggest Therapy here or Hymn, but my discard slots are to fight combo and Duress is the best at that.


Control

4 Pernicious Deed - Best removal in the game. Scalable, versatile card advantage and all around fantastic. Only bad synergy is with Moxen.
2 Engineered Explosives - Also scalable (0-3 with Mox) but more pinpoint and quicker to kill EtW tokens.
1 Powder Keg - Why the 4/2/1 split? To fight nonsense like Needle and Mage. Seriously, have fun choosing what to Needle against this deck (Waste, Deed, Explosives, Keg, Shade, Mongel, B Cycling Land, G Cycling Land, Stronghold off the top of my head).

- Note the lack of dedicated removal. Try to find a matchup where my removal is dead. They all sweep tokens and kill Goyfs. That is also not an accident.



Rest of the Manabase

3 Mox Diamond - I'm actually iffy on these right now. They make me mulligan a bit too much and I want to be casting discard first turn, not Loam. Also, they get hit by my Deeds and I can't run Devastating Dreams. Still they are nice accel and mana fixing.
2 Wasteland - I've been back and forth between Factory and Waste. These sure do help the control matchup though.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - I love this guy and so does Shade.
4 Bayou, 6 Fetches, and 2 Basics - If I drop Moxen I need to up the basics I think to fight Moon effects. I'm not sure about that yet though.



[B]2.2 Sideboard Choices



2 Shriekmaw - So I can go up to 4 total against any aggro deck (except maybe Goblins)
2 [U]Liliana Vess - Test spot against Control. I'm not sure I need it.
3 Umezawa's Jitte - Helps vs. Goblins, Sligh and Burn.
4 Krosan Grip - Needle. Counterbalance. Crypt. Leyline. Planar Void.
4 Extirpate - I think this is the yard hate of choice for me thanks to its synergy with discard, waste, and Goyf. I'm open to arguments for Leyline.

- The board is still shaky at this point. Might have to fit 4 Plagues in there (Edit: done). Therapies could be solid too. Needles are always something to consider as well.


2.3 Cards Previously Tested


Nimble Mongoose - Liked it, but didn't love it. Didn't always get Thresh quick enough, and thanks to it's fairly diminutive size, rarely recurred it.
Eternal Witness - Liked it but it was so mana intensive and was only truly great when recurred (at which point I was probably winning).
Cabal Therapy - Went when Mongoose left. What kills it is that it is not a truly GREAT combo stopper, but is very good against all archetypes. I need my discard slots to hose combo hard. Also, my creatures are now so scary I really don't want to sac them.
Dark Confidant - I just didn't have room. Also my curve isn't particularly low (flip a 'Maw = pain). I haven't seemed to need them though.



2.4 Other Cards Considered



Smother, Vendetta, Snuff Out, other removal - Why run removal that is often dead when you can use versatile cards to do the work?
Graveshell scarab - Ahh to live in a world where this card was playable.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - I do well enough against Combo tokens and Gobs can always waste this. Anyone think I should try this?



3.0 Playing the Deck

Turn One: Play Discard.
Turn Two: Start Winning.

But seriously, the deck is not difficult to play, especially early in the game. Late in the game when the recursion comes online you may run in to some more choices of whether or not to dredge or recur, and whether to up your mana count or drop a Waste.





4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses


Clearly I believe the deck to be very strong or I would have posted a more radical deck. Here are some of the strengths and weaknesses I've encountered:

Strengths

- Powerful creatures. My four main creatures are amazing. I have swung in with all of them for at least 6. Plus they are all quality creatures with or without Loam (even Terravore surprisingly). Shriekmaw is at worst a Terror and at best an insane source of card advantage.

- Powerful, flexible control. Mentioned this before but it is key to the deck. I do not run creature removal. I do not run artifact or enchantment removal. I run all of these things together. Deed. Explosives. Keg. They are almost never dead.

- Powerful card advantage.

- Resilient to hate. This is actually the one I'm most proud of. There are a ton of ways to attack Loam decks. Leyline. Planar Void. Crypt. Needle. Counterbalance. Meddling Mage. Chalice. Jailer. Wretch. Blood Moon. B2B. Play Combo. Extirpate. I have tested against almost all of these and fear almost none of them. I'm not saying I like to see them, but I just have so many outs against them. For example, Extirpate is probably the worst since it's not a board permanent and can't be dodged, but we still have three things going for us:

1) The deck is still fundamentally solid without Loam. I made SURE of this.
2) We have 8 discard spells to rip it out before we play a Loam.
3) We can still achieve card advantage/quality with our other recursion engine.

Weaknesses

- Splash hate. While the deck is resilient to hate, it will certainly see a lot of it. If you look at the cards listed above, they will see a lot of play in Legacy.

- Goblins or other quick aggro decks with disruption. The price of running versatile disruption is that it's often overcosted. Explosives cost 4 to kill a Goyf where a Smother would do the trick for half the cost. This can result in extremely fast aggro decks disrupting you and winning before you can stabilize/sweep. Very few decks can be fast, disruptive, AND recover from a sweep, but Goblins is one of them.






5.0 The Matchups


1) Threshold
How it goes: Played a ton of games in this matchup against several varieties (both CounterTop and not) so I'm sure that this matchup is very favorable. They have no good answers to the problems we create for them. When we lose, it's almost always to a large flyer or some combination of Counterbalance, Mage, and Needle. Otherwise you just kill them with your superior creatures and recur them or draw more with Loam. Waste can come in handy too.

Tips: Play your game and keep your Deeds back for when you really need them. Use your discard to rip CB, Top, or Loam hate. I generally keep Shriekmaw in against the white splash to hit Mage and Goyf. Should be pretty difficult to lose a match to them.

Board: Not too big a deal, but Grip in for Explosives, Keg and a beater is generally what's called for against a CB or yard hate build.

On the draw
1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
4-1 Enforcer!
On the play
5-1

Threshw/CB
On the draw
1-0 Deed
1-1 BB/Top/Enforcer
2-1 Deed
3-1 Deed
4-1

On the play
4-2 needle on Deed + Enforcer
5-2 Loam
5-3 Mull, needle on Deed
6-3 Loam > Needles
7-3 Tough to needle Keg, Exp, and Deed

2) Combo
How it goes: I only tested against Storm Combo (Belcher) but it went great. Discard plus tons of warrens answers plus a fairly quick clock is good times. It looks like I have a lot of answers both main and side against Ichoroid and Breakfast, but I won't speculate on numbers. Plus, I am not a combo player so feel free to disagree with me.

Tips: Attack their non Warrens win with discard, then let them try to EtW or recover and win ASAP.

Board: Grip in for 'Maw, Genesis, and Stronghold (against Belcher). Extirpate against yard combo. Plague if I squeeze it in.

Belcher first
0-1 Deed too slow for 10 ETW
0-2 Belch
1-2 Explosives > ETW
2-2 Deed (off mox) > 14 Gobs
3-2 Fizzleish

Me first
4-2 Deed
5-2 Recurring Discard + Keg > ETW
5-3 Late belch
6-3 Deed > slow belch
6-4 Delayed Belch

3) Landstill
How it goes: I tested the 4c matchup enough to think it's very good, but neither myself nor any of my friends play Landstill regularly so I don't want to pass my results on as gospel, but we have some powerful tools against Landstill, even if they are smart enough to board in Extirpate. Discard, Loam engine, Waste, and Recurring creatures that laugh at Monastery all hurt then quite a bit.

Tips: Don't rush and don't fear Deed more than you should. Waste away when you can. Grab draw with your discard, not removal (unless you can grab hate).

Board: Bring in Yard hate and Lilana/Therapy for Explosives and 'Maws.

4) Dragon Stompy
How it goes: Yowza. 50/50 right down the middle. It's like playing hate decks against each other. We have all the tools to crush them, but their disruption is often backbreaking. Moon effects are nasty, and while Chalice @2 isn't backbreaking, it isn't fun either.

Tips: Grab Moon with discard. Fetch basics. Mox Diamond is your friend. They have no answer to recurring Shriekmaw.

Board: Bring in Grip and Maw. I usually take out as many :b::b: and :g::g: cards as I feel is safe (they are all beaters so don't go above 4 I would say) and Duress.

5) Goblins
How it goes: Poorly
Tips: Deed if possible. Board in Plague. Drop Goyfs.
Board: Plagues in for Duress. Jittes in for Genesis, Stronghold, and a Shade maybe (maybe just for Shades)?

6) Black Aggro
How it goes: Not tested yet.
Tips:
Board:






6.0 Conclusion, Thanks and Lingering Questions



GB vs GWB GRB GR

First of all, special thanks to Isamaru for letting me steal his format. And by letting I mean having no choice because it's public. But thanks anyway.
Also thanks to:
Tacosnape
Eladriel
God


Newest List:

// Lands
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [TSP] Swamp (1)
4 [B] Bayou
2 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [OD] Terravore
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Duress
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague

Brushwagg
01-31-2008, 08:30 PM
I was thinking of a deck along these lines not too long ago and one card I was thinking of Zombie Infestation. Have you thought of it at all? My thinking was that with Loam you could have a pretty good amount of dudes and just run your opponent out of resources.

Mooglar
01-31-2008, 08:44 PM
is 21 lands really enough? with such a low land count do you actually want to dredge... ever? Also is mox diamond supportive with so little lands?

I mean if your genesis gets extirpated u just milled yourself of like half your creature base and not really any lands, only loam based deck ive tested is aggro cal and it runs 27 lands, and doesnt base its creatures to win the game.

Michael Keller
01-31-2008, 09:21 PM
I was thinking of a deck along these lines not too long ago and one card I was thinking of Zombie Infestation. Have you thought of it at all? My thinking was that with Loam you could have a pretty good amount of dudes and just run your opponent out of resources.

I was actually working on a deck based on Zombie Infestation and LftL...it also uses some other super-secret tech. I'll have a list posted soon.

Goaswerfraiejen
02-01-2008, 12:22 AM
is 21 lands really enough? with such a low land count do you actually want to dredge... ever?

I can't say that I understand your concern: you WANT Loam to hit lands once in a while so that you can get them back, and so that Terravore will be big enough to hurt your opponent...



I mean if your genesis gets extirpated u just milled yourself of like half your creature base and not really any lands, only loam based deck ive tested is aggro cal and it runs 27 lands, and doesnt base its creatures to win the game.


You'd still have Volrath's Stronghold. Some cards that may warrant inclusion (and that help to get around the eggs-in-a-basket problem), however, would be Grave-Shell Scarab or Genesis, both of which are capable of recursion other than or on top of Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold. You've (Phantom, that is) already dismissed the Scarab, however, and Gigapede wouldn't really be put to much use here, since you can't make him fly and don't really need the extra discard. From my experience with a roughly similar deck, I don't think that this concern is really warranted; you have more than enough threats here that losing a few to milling isn't a huge problem. Hell, any creature here can seal the deal, so...



I myself only have one question: have you considered Crime/Punishment over Powder Keg? Punishment seems like it can do the same thing just as fast, and always immediately, whereas Keg always forces you to wait a turn or two (especially relevant against Needles and the like). Besides, it's pinpoint removal, like the Kegger.

Joon
02-01-2008, 08:05 AM
I can't say that I understand your concern: you WANT Loam to hit lands once in a while so that you can get them back, and so that Terravore will be big enough to hurt your opponent...


I guess he means that while playing 21 lands it'll happen often that you'll dredge many businessspells and not lands. Many Loamdecks run around 24 or even more lands.

Nice deck, got to test it before posting further.

Phantom
02-01-2008, 09:22 AM
is 21 lands really enough? with such a low land count do you actually want to dredge... ever? Also is mox diamond supportive with so little lands?

I mean if your genesis gets extirpated u just milled yourself of like half your creature base and not really any lands, only loam based deck ive tested is aggro cal and it runs 27 lands, and doesnt base its creatures to win the game.


Check out the updated list. I've dropped all the Moxen for lands, which is great since the Moxen were getting blown by Deed, and I didn't really need the accel.

I've also dropped the keg completely (although C/P might have been better).

@ZI: Not sure this is the shell for it since it gets hit by Deed, and doesn't get recurred by Stronghold/Genesis.


I'll be back with more later...

Illissius
02-01-2008, 12:29 PM
Greyjoy seems like some weird amalgation of :u:, :r:, and :b: to me. I don't see the :g:. Maybe Lady Olenna?

Isamaru
02-05-2008, 01:56 PM
First of all, special thanks to Isamaru for letting me steal his format. And by letting I mean having no choice because it's public. But thanks anyway.

No problem, it looks good to have a uniform structure so that the organization doesn't distract from the material.

The deck looks good. I like 2 color decks a lot, and this is well done - what are you having trouble against recently?

You could almost consider Tombstalker, but let's leave him out of the picture for now.

darkalucard
03-26-2008, 04:43 PM
Great primer, I think this deck needs more attention.
It's built on all the right ideas, and if maybe unoriginal still has lots of good points not talked about allot.

Are you still playing this deck?

Is there an updated list?

Any results...?

Vindicator101
03-26-2008, 08:37 PM
I know its not exactly the same, but it was posted in the Trainwrek thread a long while ago by someone and I thought it was the same sort of Idea in a more control type form. I bring this up because I feel if you could find a happy medium between these two decks you could come up with a very competitive deck! Keep in mind I haven't been able to do a ton of testing, but its just some food for thought I guess.

The deck look like:
/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland

4 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
1 Gigapede
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Shriekmaw
4 Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Innocent Blood
3 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime/Punishment
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation

4 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
1 Haunting Echoes

I feel that yours is stronger in the combo matchup but this seems like it would be far stronger in a aggro/control type metagame.

Phantom
03-26-2008, 08:50 PM
Great primer, I think this deck needs more attention.
It's built on all the right ideas, and if maybe unoriginal still has lots of good points not talked about allot.

Are you still playing this deck?

Is there an updated list?

Any results...?

Nope. I've been busy with my Moat decks, as well as school. This deck is just extremely solid, and would certainly be my Loam deck of choice if I were going to play in a Goblin light meta. The only thing I would change from the latest list is to drop the last Shriekmaw for an explosives (probably). He always looked so good on paper, and never quite shined.

Cavius The Great
03-27-2008, 12:08 PM
would certainly be my Loam deck of choice if I were going to play in a Goblin light meta.

This deck looks like it would teabag goblins. Maybe you should run some Ghastly Demise to help deal with this.

dion
02-20-2009, 07:17 AM
It has been a while since people posted here, which isn't reflecting the potential this deck has got in my opinion. So I'll give it a try. I started playing this deck in spring past year. I figured the deck had a great Control and Aggro-control matchup but the Aggro and Combo matchup were disappointing. After months of testing I eventually came to the following list: (I won't bother you with telling how exactly the list evolved, don't think that is very interesting)

Lands: 25
2xPolluted Delta
2xBloodstained Mire
3xWindswept Heat
4xBayou
2xScrubland
1xSwamp
1xForest
4xBarren Moor
2xTranquil Thicket
4xWasteland

Creatures: 12
4xTarmogoyf
4xWild Mongrel
4xTombstalker

Other Spells: 23
4xCabal Therapy
4xThoughtseize
4xDuress
4xPernicious Deed
3xEngineered Explosives
4xLife from the Loam

Sideboard
3xKrosan Grip
4xLeyline of the Void
4xOrim’s Chant
4xSwords to Plowhares

I quitted some cards (Terravore, Nantuko Shade, Genesis and Stronghold) who are fantastic in the lategame, however are a bit poor early game in order to improve the deck worst matchups. Thought the lategame isn't as good as it was once, it's still way better then most of the decks in the format. In return, the combo matchup thanks to playing 12 discard spells has become much better. I also splashed white to play STP, Orim’s Chant and to be able to put EE@3. Playing four tournament with it my results were 1st out of 32, 9th out of 40. 2nd out of 21 and 1st out of 22. Of course some good results in small tournaments doesn’t mean it’s a fantastic deck, thought I feel comfortable to claim it to be a decent choice in the current metagame. I wonder how other people look towards it.

Joon
02-20-2009, 10:02 AM
The Deck looks nice, no offence, but - it looks like you get screwed by Relic pretty bad.

Do I miss something or are there missing white sources to actually play the cards from your side? EDIT: ah, you listed you play 25 lands but there are only 23 - my bad.

What's with Raven's Crime instead of Therapy? (With absolutely no way to recurr your critters it seems bad to sacrifice one of your 12 beaters?)

Have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

Wild Mongrel seems to be pretty bad in the early game in comparsion to cards like Dark Confidants for example. I mean, he needs a loam to fight a Tarmogoyf. That he can change colors to dodge removal like Snuff Out is nice, but all in all I find him too narrow.

Have you thought about Tops?

Sorry for overwhelming you with questions, but this deck looks interesting and it would be sad if it would disappear without any kind of discussion.

I guess EE > Swords maindeck due Balance?

dion
02-20-2009, 12:51 PM
Sorry for overwhelming you with questions, but this deck looks interesting and it would be sad if it would disappear without any kind of discussion.
No problem, the more discussion there is about the better the deck might get. I am glad you agree to the potential and your questions definitely have relevance.


The Deck looks nice, no offence, but - it looks like you get screwed by Relic pretty bad.
Relic indeed is one of the card you donít like being faced with, thought I must say that until so far I didnít experienced as horrible as it might look. The games I faced it, I could play around it so to say. Meaning that you have got 7 removal spells and that if you play properly, you can get your opponent sacrificing it with as less damage to you as possible. Of course it isnít nice to face, but I donít think it is GG when it hits the board.


Do I miss something or are there missing white sources to actually play the cards from your side? EDIT: ah, you listed you play 25 lands but there are only 23 - my bad.
I had forgotten to add 2 ScrublandÖ I have edited the list.


What's with Raven's Crime instead of Therapy? (With absolutely no way to recurr your critters it seems bad to sacrifice one of your 12 beaters?)
Ravenís CrimeÖ I can tell you that youíre definitely not the first person who mentions it. I have been thinking about it myself too for quite some times but I decided to play Therapy instead. Why? Because Ravenís Crime is great in the Control and Aggro-Control matchups but kind of sucks in the Aggro and Combo matchup and those are already favourable. Therapy is a decent card in most matchups, also in de matchups where Ravenís Crime shines. Combined with 4 Duresses and 4 Thoughtseizes you very often will have information and you win games just by ripping opponentís hand. Combo is also a good argument to play Therapy, without this much discard spells youíll lose towards combo just like many non-blue decks do. 12 discard spells seem to be a weird in a Loam deck, but this is no regular Loam deck. It is way more controlish then most Loam decks and you lack Mox Diamond. 12 discard spells make sure you have a turn 1 play most of the time. The information you get through them are very important to determine your game strategy. Sacrificing your critters indeed is something you donít do very often. Only if you really have to get rid of something, can win the game with a huge trade or when your creatures already are going to die to a Deed/EE. I have been sceptical about Therapy as well, especially when I decided to play less creatures and quitted creature recursion but Therapy just seems to surprise me in a positive way each tournament.


Have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?
Yes, I even played it for quite some time. I quitted it because again it is good in your favourable matchups, but doesnít do much in your unfavourable matchups. Considering the deckís colored mana demand I prefer to play fetchland no. 7 instead of Stronghold.


Wild Mongrel seems to be pretty bad in the early game in comparsion to cards like Dark Confidants for example. I mean, he needs a loam to fight a Tarmogoyf. That he can change colors to dodge removal like Snuff Out is nice, but all in all I find him too narrow.
I would love to play Dark Condidant, but with 4 Tombstalkers that is not possible. But back to Wild Mogrel, alone it might not be great, but it has got nice synergies with the rest of your deck. You named already Loam but also with Goyfs and Tombstalker it works pretty fine (recurring Therapy can be good as well, though that is not a very good argument cause any creature can). But besides that it has got a crucial function in the deck. And that is being a wall against aggro. Mogrel buys the time you need there, it has won me many games against aggro. Iíll give a summary of some matchups, because I answered most of your question referring towards them and it also might give people a better image of the deck.


Have you thought about Tops?
No, actually I didnít. To be honest I donít see many reasons to play it, but if you can give me some argument why I might should Iíll test them.


I guess EE > Swords maindeck due Balance?
That indeed is an important reason, the second reason for playing EE instead of STP is the EE is hardly ever a dead card where STP can be so. If you look at the list youíll notice that I donít play card the a potentially dead. Maybe thatís just my playing style, but in a diverse metagame the Legacy currently has got I thing itís a good thing. After boarding you can strengthen your deck with some more specific hate, instead of either inefficient mass removal, inefficient discard spells or inefficient creatures (Wild Mogrell against some decks).

Then some matchups: (I only express them with (un)favourable/even and discuss archtypes, since I must admit that I havenít registered testing results)

Threshold: Favourable
I know lots of people overestimate this matchup, but I am positive about this one. You can answer Counterbalance by 7 spells or play around it with Tombstalker. I found the discard spells to be very good in here. Dark Confidant can be a pain in the ass, since you got no mainboard direct answers.

Landstill: Favourable
Wastelocks are great and 12 discard spells make it a positive matchup.

Aggroloam: Unfavourable
Aggroloam tends to do everything does, but then just faster and better. Though Tombstalkers sometimes make you win the game. Without them it will be difficult.

Goblins: Even to unfavourable
Without Warren Weirding it is about even. Play a wall and try to make to the lategame, when you are faces Warren Weidingís youíre in trouble.

Geddon Staxx: Favourable
You play much cards which are very good in here, though you can be overwhelmed sometimes. Still a positive matchup (EE, Deed and Loam are very good in here).

MUC: Favourable
Back to Basics is probably the greatest fear in there. Your discard spells are very good in here, especially cause you can determine your strategy by the card youíll get to see. You have got to make sure your wonít be walking in Sowers (in Holland often played) or Shackles. Keep your creatures in your hand until you see a chance to race him by multiples creatures. Also playing Deed and EE@3 are good to protect you against B2B. When you use this strategy I found this matchup to be positive.

Dragon Stompy: Very unfavourable
Unless DS loses to itself youíll lose. The explosiveness of DS is something this deck doesnít like and on top of the a Moon Effect is almost always GG. I think 20-80/15-85 would give a good image of the mathchup.

TES A Bit unfavourable
While playing 12 discard spells and SB Chant I feel kind of comfordable playing this matchup. It can go either way. I donít think I want to use more sideboard space to the combo mathcup because after sideboarding (I do -3 Deed -1Loam +4 Chant) you donít run much irrelevant cards.

ANT: About even
Ant is a bit slower and your creatures become now disruption as well. That makes it a bit better then TES.

Corwin
02-20-2009, 12:57 PM
Anyway you can't say you tested it against combo if you didn't test it against TES or ANT ;)

ZZZ
02-24-2009, 06:55 AM
Hello Everybody,

While I have been reading the boards for some time, this is my first post here at The Source.

I'm an Eva Green player myself; but I have been looking around to play something a bit more consistent. Eva Green with its heavy disruption and cheap quality beaters suits my play style perfectly so I was looking for something along the same lines. When I saw this deck; I immediately liked it a lot.

I have slightly modified the last list posted here by Dion and I'm currently testing the following:
Lands: 25
2xPolluted Delta
2xBloodstained Mire
3xWindswept Heath
3xBayou
2xScrubland
2xMishra’s Factory
1xSwamp
1xForest
3xBarren Moor
2xTranquil Thicket
4xWasteland

Creatures: 12
4xTarmogoyf
4xWild Mongrel
4xTombstalker

Other Spells: 23
4xThoughtseize
4xDuress
4xPernicious Deed
1xDiabolic Edict
4xVindicate
2xEngineered Explosives
4xLife from the Loam

No sideboard yet although I think the side I'm playing currently with my Eva Green deck wouldn't have to be changed too much for this deck (4 Choke, 4 Engineered Plague, 4 Tormod's Crypt or Leyline o/t Void, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Putrefy).

I've played a couple of games with this deck and something that I noticed quite soon, is that it would really benefit from some cheap spot removal in the mainboard. That's why I'm thinking of making the following adjustments:
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Vindicate
-2 Duress

+4 Swords to Plowshares

The reason is that without StP, the only answer to some common turn 1 or turn 2 plays (Goblin Lackey, StifleNaught, ...) is Thoughtseize (and maybe Duress against Stifle).

Another card I'm not sure about is Mishra's Factory. I have put it in because it is a nice fit with Loam and Deed and it ads some more beats but I might replace it with a Savannah (or another Cycle land) and a Volrath's Stronghold.

I would very much like to hear what you think and I'm open to suggestions, criticism, ...
I'm definitely going to further test this deck although at the next tournament I'm playing; I'll still play Eva Green as I won't have this deck ready then (it's in 2 weeks...).

Cheers,
Zjef

dion
02-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Hi Zjef,

Can you explain me why you modified the list I posted? Iím not saying that my list is the list to play, though when net-decking a deck I advocate testing the initial list.

I think ditching Cabal Therapy, who indeed may look a bit strange, without giving it a try would be premature. Playing 12 discard spells gives you a solid combo matchup, if like your propose would go back to 6 youíll throw that away. Iím not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but concerning my metagame I would never go beneath 11.

I see you disliked the Factories. I must say I never tested them, but I am not surprised by it. The deck requires quite some colored mana and besides that, I donít really see great benefits.

Playing STPís has been on my mind for a while now, I have got reasons not to play them mainboard but not testing them would be dumb. I will be testing my list -1 Mogrel -3 EE + 4 STP. The only complaint I am having with the deck is that the mass removal sometimes comes a bit too late.

Savannah hasnít got a place in my list since it can only be fetched by 3 Heaths. Scrubland can be by 7. If you want to play more white sources I would probably change 1 Bayou to a Scrubland.

I shouldnít play Vindicate. It just too expensive and especially while playing STP not necessary.

Finally, copying your Eva Green sideboard is not a good idea. It might be solid for that deck, but the matchups and gameplans are totally different. Choke for instance is absolutely not necessary since the matchups it improves already are favourable.

Itís nice having more minds thinking about this deck, Iíll be testing the Swords.

Unknown2
02-25-2009, 02:00 PM
i would play vindicate > STP in this deck.

Also, why isn\t anybody running eternal witness + volrath's stronghold?

dion
02-25-2009, 03:39 PM
i would play vindicate > STP in this deck.

On what grounds? Personally, I donít think the curve can handle it. You are already playing 4 Deeds which I would never cut. What this deck might need is some more tempowin, since the toughest matchup are aggro decks. You lose sometimes because your removal is too slow. STP might fix that. Vindicate gives you some allround removal, but it is slow and your discard spells+Deed (and EE if you wouldnít run STP) mostly do the trick already. So I think I would rather play STP than Vindicate, though I never tested them both. But I must say Vindicate is something I have been thinking for a while, perhaps at least testing it would be a good idea.


Also, why isn\t anybody running eternal witness + volrath's stronghold?

Because only in the lategame it is very good to have Stronghold+Witness. And the lategame already being pretty well, makes me not playing it.

ZZZ
02-26-2009, 08:01 AM
Hi Zjef,

Can you explain me why you modified the list I posted? I’m not saying that my list is the list to play, though when net-decking a deck I advocate testing the initial list.

I think ditching Cabal Therapy, who indeed may look a bit strange, without giving it a try would be premature. Playing 12 discard spells gives you a solid combo matchup, if like your propose would go back to 6 you’ll throw that away. I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but concerning my metagame I would never go beneath 11.

Thanks for your comments, Dion. I changed your list because it didn't really seem to suit my meta at first. But you are absolutely right, I should have tested your original list first. In fact I can say that after trying a couple of alterations on the list I posted, I'm now testing a list close to your original list.

I really like Cabal Therapy in here now. Originally I cut it because I thought you would not want to sac any of your creatures but I like it a lot now. If you want (or have to) blow a Deed; your creatures in play still have a use.

A card that I haven't been to impressed with so far is Wild Mongrel. It seems to be better on paper than in reality. I've often found myself wanting to pump Mongrel but not having cards I want to discard. Mongrel is good in the early game and if you have the Loam engine online but if not he just can't compete with most of the creatures in Legacy. I will test him further though as I haven't played that many games with him yet.
If at some point I want to cut Mongrel (or play less copies), I would like to try Terravore again. Although I'd have to cut some Tombstalkers then as well. If Terravore gets played, I'll probably also consider Mox Diamond again.

Like you said Dion, this deck can be quite mana intensive and sometimes the white splash gave me some issues. I think a straight up GB list might be the way to go. Diabolic Edict or Smother can go in the board instead of StP.

Anyway I'm running ahead of myself here. I'm gonna test your list Dion and I'll post my experiences later.

Thanks

Edit: One more card I want to try in this deck is Reanimate. It just seems to go so well with so many elements of this deck (the discard suit, the mass removal, Loam, ...).

overseer1234
02-28-2009, 08:34 AM
Alright, trying to keep this tread alive :D here's the BG list I'm currently playing:

Main deck:
2x Powder Keg (better then EE since I don't have mox diamond)

3x Nantuko Shade
1x Shriekmaw (Every time I cut him I just put him back, the random 1-off is just to good, whe I cut it, it becomes a worm harvest....)
1x Genesis
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Terravore
3x Wild Mongrel

4x Pernicious Deed (duh)

3x Barren Moor
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrathís Stronghold
2x Wasteland Land
3x Wooded Foothills

2x Duress
2x Ravenís Crime (testing showed me that this really works...)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Life from the Loam
2x Crime // Punishment (our EE, works to get rid of counterbalance, so its at least as good at doing that...)

Sideboard
3x Umezawaís Jitte
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate/Leyline of the Void
4x Krosan Grip

It actually like my B/G Rock, but without withnes and top and with loam engine and bigger beatz, so I really like playing with it. And raven's crime is just so much fun :D