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raharu
02-03-2008, 02:45 AM
Just a thought:

Creatures: 14
Nimble Mongoose x4
Shadowmage Infiltrator x3
Tarmogoyf x4
Mystic Enforcer x3

Permission: 10
Daze x3
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Cantrip/ draw: 10
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Disruption: 3
Extirpate x3

Mana: 19
Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x3
Underground Sea x3
Tropical Island x3
Tundra x3
Chrome Mox x3

General sideboard (just something to start from): 15
Vindicate x3 (could be MD over the Extirpates) + Extirpate/ Vindicate x1
Stifle x4
7x metagame slots (CoP: red, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, whatever).

It's pretty much a hybrid of bw thresh and aYb baseruption. I was going to necro that thread, then deckded that the deck is a little bit too far from aYb's list. It's just a stopy-ass creature-base with control. The MD Extirpates are there because they make sooo many otherwise bad MU's good, and it crushes any form of combo or control. The moxen are for early speed, the Predicts are for accelerating threshold and growing 'Goyf. Everything else is pretty much standard.

Thoughts?

chokin
02-03-2008, 04:03 AM
You roll over and die to Wasteland, Mr. NoBasics.

Up your lands to 18 to 20. Drop the Mox. The CB Top works nicely here since you can counter 0-4, with 1 and 2 being the most common CMC. Enforcer is gonna be a tough drop with the low land count. Mox hurts your hand too much since everything in your deck is either a threat, an answer, or lands.

I think Confidant might do better than Fink. You have a pretty low CMC average, with Top to back everything up. Consider a couple of copies of Smother to deal with opposing Goyfs. Having more than StP is nice when Goyf gets to be bigger than a 4/5.

Maveric78f
02-03-2008, 04:42 AM
10/19 of your mana base dies to stifle too.

TeenieBopper
02-03-2008, 04:45 AM
The first question one should always ask when building a "new" aggro control deck: Why should I play this instead of Thresh?

diffy
02-03-2008, 06:47 AM
My impressions on this:



Nimble Mongoose x4
Mystic Enforcer x3


These royally suck with your extremely high permanent count.



Daze x3


It is agreed on that you want 4 or none of these in nearly all cases.



Predict x3


With only 7 means to set this up (SdT, Brainstorm - maybe Counterbalance) I can't see how you'll get these to create Card Advantage reliably. Also, you're in black so why not play Dark Confidant over these as that little Wizard actually is a threat.



Extirpate x3


I really don't like these in here as you aren't aggressive enough (Stifle, Wasteland, see aYb.irdshit (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12111)) to support the tempo boost provided by them. You also don't have enough Card Advantage to be able to cope with the CDA these are likely to provide.



Mana: 19


With your relatively high curve I think that you'd want another land in here. Probably fetchie n°8.



Thoughts?


Suggested changes:
-3 Predict
-3 Extirpate
-2 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Nimble Mongoose

+1 Tombstalker
+1 Hoofprints of the Stag
+4 Dark Confidant
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Daze
+1 Flooded Strand

At that point, one could raise the question why to butcher the manabase for Mystic Enforcer (can be replaced), Hoofprints of the Stag (admitedly very strong) and Swords to Plowshares (can be replaced) and not rahter black NQG/b.

raharu
02-03-2008, 03:33 PM
These royally suck with your extremely high permanent count..

Half of the list (almost, it's actually 29 cards of it) go to the yard directly after they are played, on top of Predict. Are you sure I have an:


extremely high permanent count
I'm not.



It is agreed on that you want 4 or none of these in nearly all cases..

Considering that when threshold played three, they would be damned if they even wanted to run 4, I'm not so sure about that.



With only 7 means to set this up (SdT, Brainstorm - maybe Counterbalance) I can't see how you'll get these to create Card Advantage reliably. Also, you're in black so why not play Dark Confidant over these as that little Wizard actually is a threat..

I have Shadowmage Infiltrator, which in comparison to Confidant, actually is a threat, considering that it beats and doesn't hurt me at all.



I really don't like these in here as you aren't aggressive enough (Stifle, Wasteland, see aYb.irdshit (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12111)) to support the tempo boost provided by them. You also don't have enough Card Advantage to be able to cope with the CDA these are likely to provide..

Extirpate lets me stop going one for one with permission against problematic threats/ hate, much like CounterTop does. Are you going to tell me to stop playing Counterbalance for he same reason?


With your relatively high curve I think that you'd want another land in here. Probably fetchie n°8..[/QUOTE]

It would probably be an Island, and then more basics would ensue.




Suggested changes:
-3 Predict
-3 Extirpate
-2 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Nimble Mongoose

+1 Tombstalker
+1 Hoofprints of the Stag
+4 Dark Confidant
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Daze
+1 Flooded Strand

At that point, one could raise the question why to butcher the manabase for Mystic Enforcer (can be replaced), Hoofprints of the Stag (admitedly very strong) and Swords to Plowshares (can be replaced) and not rahter black NQG/b.

Tombstalker is a subpar threat in comparison to Mystic Enforcer. Hoofprints has absolutely no synergy whatsoever with Confidant. 4 Daze slow the deck down too much. In general, you just made the deck a much, much worse version of aYb.aseruption (which the deck was pretty much blantly sourced from, if you read the opening post).

@ Maveric78f: This is true, but what deck, save the underplayed UG threshold, plays Stifle as a 4-of in the MD? Not many. I'm ok with making the deck faster and more agressive while opening up the manabase a little (considering that the general trend is against going away from waste-lock, although Blood Moons are experiencing a resurgance...).

@ chokin: yep, maybe the deck would be better without the Moxen, but getting that early boost is a good thing sometimes, and it rebuffs the manabase against watseland and the like, although droping them for basics vould do the exact same thing more consistantly...

Fink pitches to FoW, Confidant does not. Also, Shadowmage Infiltrator consistantly beats for one, where Dark Confidant beats for 2 occasionally, and then hits me for x a turn. I like Finkle a little bit better, but considering that I have Confidant on hand, I'll test both (after I buy Enforcers :frown:). Also, how is Enforcer going to ge difficult to cast with 19 manasources? I feel that you could easilly get it down by turn 4, and by turn 3 with some measure of consistency.

@ TeenieBopper: for almost all intnts and purposes, this is bw thresh, but with a different feel from normal lists. The MD Extirpates could easilly be Thoughtseizes, and then you have the goodies from black thresh and the goodies from white thresh in the same deck (which I have been strangely unable to do when starting with a conventional bw threshold list...).


In general, the manabase is kinda tight, as it is streched across 4 colors, but considering I only have to go double on blue (for Counterbalance), it's alright, and the Moxen could be basics if the metagame demands it.

diffy
02-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Half of the list (almost, it's actually 29 cards of it) go to the yard directly after they are played


Compare your:
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
7 Fetches

to your average NQGs:
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Ponder
8-9 Fetches

Extirpate, Swords etc can't really be counted towards feeding the graveyard as they are only used conditionally and not preliminarily to seeing a threat.



Considering that when threshold played three, they would be damned if they even wanted to run 4, I'm not so sure about that.


As far as I can recall (not that this would mean a lot because I'm only into NQG for about a years or so), NQG, at least German NQG, never ran less than 4 Dazes, just sayin'.
I've done a quick search (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?page=5&type=Threshold&format=Legacy) and have found a few old lists playing 3 Dazes, but the successfull lists (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=3760) always seemed to play 4 :wink:



I have Shadowmage Infiltrator, which in comparison to Confidant, actually is a threat, considering that it beats and doesn't hurt me at all.


That's actually not what I said but whatever.
I was comairing Predict and Dark Confidant.
I'd also play Confidant over Infiltrator all day long as he costs a mana less (relevant) and doesn't have to attack to draw a card (less relevant). I can see how he pitches to FoW but would you play Pongify over Swords for that same reason?
The life loss is irrelevant with regards to your average cost or neglected by the card advantage gained. Also, if a Dark Confidant ever draws you more than a card, you've won as your opponent doesn't have any removal/solutions so the life loss will not accumulate to being enough to loose you a game.
I've no problem whatsoever to play Infiltrator as complement to Confidant but I certainly wouldn't prefer him over Confi.



Extirpate lets me stop going one for one with permission against problematic threats/ hate, much like CounterTop does. Are you going to tell me to stop playing Counterbalance for he same reason?


Extirpate is card disadvantage.
Extirpate needs you to already have deal with one of their threats.
Extirpate is probably only good against recursion engines if you don't have another means to abuse it (eg Wasteland).



It would probably be an Island, and then more basics would ensue.


There is just no reason not to play the maximum amount of fetches in here as they feed the graveyard, have synergy with Counterbalance/SdT/Brainstorm and avoid you getting flooded/colorscrewed.



Hoofprints has absolutely no synergy whatsoever with Confidant.


Your point? Hoofprints is just another means to create card advantage... you don't need a lot to work alongside it: your drawstep, Brainstorm, SdT and the occasional cantrip/Infiltrator draw are way enough to support it and turn it into a tool to win any war of attrition.



4 Daze slow the deck down too much.


Daze slows the deck down too much if that is your oppinion.
4 Daze just assures that you have it when it matters.

thefreakaccident
02-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Sorry Raharu, but I am in total agreement with Der here...

I on the other hand think that extirpate is a great card, but only in sideboards (or wish boards like Der's secret Tech!!!)... It is only good in certain scenarios and is therefore inflexible.

I would also consider his other suggestions (by others I mean all), as he tends to know what he is talking about, I know I tend to at least put strong consideration into everything he says before either dismissing it or discovering true geneous.

galeng
02-03-2008, 07:58 PM
Isn't this just 4 color threshold with a few inclusions that have been previously suggested but dismissed due to poor performance?

Correct me if im wrong.

raharu
02-04-2008, 03:46 PM
Isn't this just 4 color threshold with a few inclusions that have been previously suggested but dismissed due to poor performance?

Correct me if im wrong.

Yeah, maybe if you read the opening post we wouldn't have to bother with this question for a second time. It's a bit different, but the differences are from aYb.aseruption (as stated twice in previous posts). I'll post the list I'm goin g to test in a while.