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buu
02-07-2008, 08:19 PM
Since I couldn't find a Stasis thread anywhere around, I'm starting a new one.
I know the times of Stasis' greatness are long gone, but this deck is just soo fun to play (well, maybe not everyone considers this fun, but the way it alters the game tempo and irritates your opponent is just incredible:wink: ). I hope I will yet see a competitive Stasis deck, or at least more competitive than atm. At least I think this specific deck deserves a thread

To start with, do we keep Stasis mono-blue or splash another color? Though I've seen some really interesting UG and UW builds, I'd go with mono-blue, mainly because it's (almost) Wasteland-proof, which is a problem in any multicolored version. Also keeping the deck creatureless is a simple way to make all creature hate become dead cards (that's why I don't get the point of playing Chronatog, which can be dealt with with Swords, Lightning Bolts and dozens of other cheap stuff)

Here's the current list I'd go with:

18 Island
4 Forsaken City
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Tel-Jilad Stylus
4 Stasis
3 Frozen Aether
1 Energy Field
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Stifle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Muddle the Mixture
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Gigadrowse
4 Ensnare

(Total = 61 cards)

MANA BASE

26 mana sources including 4 Forsaken Cities, supported by Chain of Vapor, Tel-Jilad Stylus and Ensnare/Daze is more than enough to keep Stasis alive. I wouldn't cut the number of Islands below 17-18, I think 22 lands + 4 mana accelerators is an optimal mana base.

Some kind of mana acceleration is necessary for mono-blue Stasis to compete in such fast format, especially against aggro decks. Muddle the Mixture being 3rd turn sorcery speed tutor is way too slow, but used on turn two to search for Stasis or Energy Field suddenly becomes really good. Mana acceleration also allows to play 3rd turn Frozen Aether, if the opponent isn't putting too much pressure. Options for mana acceleration are:

Lotus Petal - the best choice imo. It may seem wierd to run Petals in a blue control deck, but they're great in the early game, and with Stasis in play they're basically Islands, the only difference is they can't be bounced back with Ensnare/Daze - but with 18 Islands that's not a problem. The only thing that bothers me about Petals is their lack of synergy with Energy Field, but that's not much of a problem either.

Elvish Spirit Guide - slightly inferior to LP, because can't generate blue mana. Being a possible third turn blocker won't help much against aggro.

Jeweled Amulet - not good, mainly because used on 1st turn disables you the possiblity to bounce something nasty (Lackey) with Chain of Vapor or tap it with Gigadrowse. Also it unnecessarily gives your opponent a clue what kind of deck you're playing (or at least what you're NOT playing)

Chrome Mox - I only see it work with Howling Mines, which have no place in mono-U Stasis (I know that's arguable, though)

THE LOCK

To be competitive (wishful thinking:cry: ) Stasis needs either a fast and reliable win condition (not invented yet, at least I can't think of any, certainly not decking) or a hard lock - otherwise the opponent can just wait forever and asseble the pieces he needs to break away, while you struggle to keep Stasis in play. There are basically three ways to go - splashing green for Root Maze, white for Equipoise or staying mono-blue with Frozen Aether (Orb of Dreams and Kismet are obviously inferior). Each card has its advantages and weaknesses.

Root Maze is fastest, but requires whole deck to be built around it. You need Root Maze, Stasis, Forsaken City to feed Stasis, Howling Mine to feed Forsaken City. You have to get them into play, which means countering enemy's discard, counterspells and enchantment hate. You have to get them into play quickly, and even if you do, you're by no means guaranteed to win. Also even a single vigilance creature can kill you if you get unlucky.

Frozen Aether seems to have been specially designed for Stasis. With Stasis in play it reads "95% of opponent's permanents do Absolutely Nothing". On the other hand it's four mana for an enchantment that doesn't really do anything on its own. Frozen Aether's casting cost is a problem, but I'd rather adjust the deck to make it use Frozen Aether more effectively than design a deck around a card, which by itself causes more problem than it solves.

THE OWL

Ebony Owl Netsuke is the best possible finisher for Stasis. It needs hard lock to bite, but Frozen Aether makes sure the opponent's hand is filled with useless stuff. The Owl would work even better with Howling Mines or Jace Beleren, but none of them made it into the deck, for the reasons explained later.

Other possible finishers include Iron Maiden, but it's similar to Owl and more expensive. A classic finisher for mono-blue Stasis has been Morphling, but he's way too expensive both to cast and maintain.

An alternative I have never seen being played is Serra Sphinx. As mentioned before, it's not a good idea to run creatures in Stasis, unless there's a good reason for it, but I always thought it was cool to bring the Sphinxes from SB against control decks, since it's safe to assume they'll side their creature removal out after the first game.

Decking is a viable strategy for casual games (aside the fact nobody wants to play with you more than one game:wink: ), but it'll never be good in competitive play, simply because you don't have enough counterspells to counter every threat the other deck has. Not to mention you'll end at best drawing tournament games.

COUNTERSPELLS

Force of Will - an automatic 4-of

Daze - I always thought it's an obvious choice and played 4xDaze, but as much as I love this card, it's not always that great. If you cast it for its alternative cost in the first turns, it usually sets you back more than the opponent. You can't cast it for mana in the 1st turn. I would, however, never cut Dazes altogether, they're still most versatile counters around, and they're free.

Stifle - IMO essential, there are just too many lethal abilities around

Counterspell - too expensive with Stasis in play, the same goes for all 2cc counters like, Mana Leak, Remand, Arcane Denial

Misdirection - good SB option, but not versatile enough for maindeck

Thwart - too slow for legacy, it's pretty useless against decks killing in the first three turns. Later on it's great, but it's still a win more card.

CARD ADVANTAGE

Here's the question: to use or not to use Howling Mines as the deck running engine? My answer is - not to use them. (Unless you're running Root Mazes, but even then, there's obvious anti-synergy between them). Sure, it's nice to get more cards and it's true that with Stasis in play the cards you draw usually are more valuable than the ones your opponent draws, because your deck is designed to work with little or no mana. But think about Howling Mines in these situations:
a) no Stasis in play (early game) - you play Howling Mine (that's one card back) to give your opponent an extra card in his next turns. Seriously, whatever kind of deck he's playing, whether he'll be drawing additional lands, goblins, slivers, counterspells, whatever - all cards your opponent runs are chosen to help his deck kill you. And this i exactly what Howling Mine does.
b) Stasis in play, but no lock - the deck runs much smoother, but the opponent gets his toys faster as well
c) opponent under hard lock - with Stasis + Frozen Aether you don't need Howling Mines. It's usually game over and if your opponent has a way to break the lock (for example, has free mana for Krosan Grip), Mines won't help you either.

Jace Beleren is a great card, I like him far more than the Mines, because he generates massive card advantage and can deck your opponent (he also looks cool:smile: ), but I feel he's too vulnerable (I wish Energy Field could protect him as well). However, he may be a good sideboard options against control

SEARCH

Muddle the Mixture - this is the key card in any Stasis going mono-blue. With mana acceleration it can tutor for Stasis or Energy Field on turn 2. It can't be countered other than by Stifle / Trickbind. After sideboarding it may gain more targets, like Chill, Cursed Totem, Null Rod. And it's a good counterspell on it's own.

Merchant Scroll - seems to be overlooked, but in my opinion it's great. It gets you Gigadrowse to tap your opponent down before playing Stasis, Ensnare to stop an alpha attack, Chain of Vapor to bounce something nasty back, FoW, MtM, Stifle... That's a lot of options for 1U instant

Brainstorms, as great as they are in most decks, need some shuffling effects to use their full potential. You want to be able to get Stasis wherever it hides, Brainstorm just scratches the top of your library

Cards like Ponder, Impulse, Accumulated Knowledge or aren't good enough, while Intuition is inferior to MtM, because it can be countered and leaves your vulnerable to Extirpate.

OTHER STUFF

Energy Field - I just love this card. It won't protect you forever, but gives you precious time to fetch Gigadrowse/Ensnare and tap your opponent down.

Chain of Vapor - the ancient high-tech Stasis trick with Chain of Vapor allows you to get your untap step. It's also useful to bounce something especially nasty (Meddling Mage, Chalice at 2, Garruk, Quirion Ranger...). With Energy Field in play you can sac a land to copy the Chain and return Energy Field to your hand to replay it afterwards.

Tel-Jilad Stylus - does the same thing as Chain of Vapor, also works well with Energy Field. For example if your Forsaken City is targeted by Wasteland or Sinkhole, you can use Stylus to put the City on the bottom of your library, thus saving Energy Field.

Rescue, Boomerang and Echoing Truth are all good choices, but 4 Chains and a Stylus should be enough.

Gigadrowse - fantastic against counter-heavy decks, since each copy of the spell has to be countered individually, which means you can tap them down on their turn and play Stasis on your turn. Usually a 3rd turn Gigadrowse followed by 4th turn Stasis sets you in a very comfortable position.

Ensnare - equally fantastic. Tapping all opponent's creatures and getting 2 fresh Island for 0 mana speaks for itself. The problem is it won't do any good in the first two turns, but no aggro deck is going to kill you before turn 3 and there are enough cards in the deck to slow it down enough to let you cast Stasis before having to use Ensnare

There are many other cards to consider in a Mono-U Stasis deck, like Propaganda, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Back to Basics, Pithing Needle...

Anyway...

I'm curious to hear your opinions. Do you see this version (or any other) work in the current metagame? Forgive my noobness, but I've been out of the game for a couple of months and I'm not familiar with the meta atm, that's why I'm not trying to analyze individual matchups, but describe my concept of the deck. I hope to get some feedback from Stasis fans (hey, I know you still exist) and from Stasis haters as well.

And don't write Stasis is dead! And if it is, someone has to resurrect it:mad:

Poron
02-07-2008, 10:18 PM
I consider myself (and I'm probably wrong) a little "expert" of Stasis Decks.
The first thing I want to tell you is that there is no way to make a competitive deck for any legacy meta with a mono U Stasis deck.

The best way to play a Stasis is, fore sure with Green and/or White.

Green is hot for Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bird of Paradise (you untap lands and pay Stasis' upkeep with these) also Tarmagoyf (and Sea Drake) to win (you attack and then untap with Quirion or Scryb Rangers to attack again next turn and with Sea Drake you untap lands also, not bad).
100% 4xExploration in.

White has a cheap hardlock combo with Equipoise ( http://magiccards.info/vi/en/103.html ) with a Stasis down your opponent loses all creatures and all artifacts.

Equipoise is very hot for hardlocks but I would surely Stay on U/G version.

Cards you must include

Sea Drake
Tarmagoyf
Exploration (but if you play 4x quirion and scryb rangers perhaps you can cut this...)
Scryb Ranger
Quirion Ranger
Bird of Paradise
Force of Will
Daze
Stasis
Impulse/Brainstorm and so on...
old school bouncers like Echoing Truth, Boomerang, etc... because you never know what can happen...
And now I would really add both the new Green and Blue Planeswalker ;)
you untap lands with the Green one and you draw more cards everyturn with the blue one.

I'm not sure about the Green one but the blue one is really hot here, I would stay 2-3x

J.V.
02-07-2008, 10:47 PM
Green splash is the best version because of rootmaze. Also you should be running Chronatog because 1.) It pitches to force when its not needed. And to if you hard lock someone under Stasis/Root Maze and drop Chronatog you simply win because you skip turns and make them deck.

Poron
02-07-2008, 10:50 PM
that is not a competitive way to win, your opponent would just lose times until the five turns, and if he wins the first match he will get the victory.

the only way to win is slashing the opponent with creatures and Green gives you this...

Jak
02-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Do you have a UG list, Poron?

buu
02-08-2008, 12:13 PM
the only way to win is slashing the opponent with creatures and Green gives you this...

I agree UG version with rangers, tarmogoyf could be solid (especially now with planeswalkers) but this kind of aggro-Stasis deck never seemed appealing to me. Somehow it doesn't have that Stasis feeling (if it makes any sense). It reminds me more of decks like old SuperGro than a prison deck.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions. Btw, have you tested this greenish Stasis? Does it work? Can you post your decklist? I'm curious to see how you'd put it together - I always thought splashing green would only make sense because of Root Maze, though I haven't seen a reliable Root Maze-Stasis deck in a while (nor any other Stasis deck tbh)

HdH_Cthulhu
02-08-2008, 12:28 PM
I think Vedalken Mastermind is pretty hot in a stasis deck!

You drop it turn 2 and with 4 Fow and 4 Daze it isnt to hard to let him survive one turn. Thene he could bounce things if something goes wrong, or simply eot stasis ftw...

I like the idea of Birds of paradise and Quirion Ranger and tarmogoyf!

Cavius The Great
02-08-2008, 12:35 PM
I think Vedalken Mastermind is pretty hot in a stasis deck!

You drop it turn 2 and with 4 Fow and 4 Daze it isnt to hard to let him survive one turn. Thene he could bounce things if something goes wrong, or simply eot stasis ftw...

I like the idea of Birds of paradise and Quirion Ranger and tarmogoyf!

How is Vedalken Mastermind better than Garruk?

FoolofaTook
02-08-2008, 01:16 PM
This is the list I toyed with for awhile, it looks a lot like classic Stasis builds with an emphasis on a few new options.

U/W Stasis with CB/Top

Lands

3x Forsaken City
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
5x Island
2x Plains

Counters

4x Force of Will
3x Daze

Removal

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
2x Echoing Truth
1x Engineered Explosives

Non-removal permanents

4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
2x Frozen Aether
2x Stasis
1x Back to Basics
1x Moat

Draw/Tutor

4x Brainstorm
4x Enlightened Tutor

Creatures

1x Serra Avenger
1x Serra Sphinx

Sideboard

2x Energy Flux
2x The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
4x Leylines of the Void
2x Meekstone
1x Feldon's Cane
1x Academy Ruins
2x Stifle
1x Ivory Mask


Mana base

21 lands is more than enough to support the concept given that there are 4 Sensei's Divining Top and 4 Brainstorm included to dig at the start on lowland draws. Only 3 Forsaken City because they are a bit problematic in the opening hand, although they do draw Wastelands and I will play them out before a Tundra if that's the draw.

Counters

7 instant counters is really all the deck can afford. All 7 work turn 1 to land an SDT and all 7 work under Stasis. Counterbalance is to bridge from turn 4 to turn 10 or so as you're maneuvering to setup the lock, not to mention it just hoses Threshold badly and that's the single most likely opponent you'll face in the meta.

Removal

Tight anti-creature package that relies on Stasis to cover some faults down the road. The StP get you to 4 mana where you can sweep with Wrath of God if necessary or drop the Moat, which is a huge hoser for Goblins, Threshold and Landstill.

Echoing Truth works against tokens and multiple drops and is general removal otherwise after Counterbalance/Top is in play. It also works with Stasis sometimes to let you reset and grab the lock.

Engineered Explosives is the tutorable sweeper of last recourse against tokens and other swarming problems. It can get up to 3 fairly easily with the Forsaken Cities and can get to 4 in the late game if that becomes critical.

Non-removal permanents

Sensei's Divining Top is probably the key card in the deck. It let's you search very quickly, in conjunction with the Fetchlands and tutors, for whatever you need at the moment.

Counterbalance is the holding mechanism and softlock that allows you to get to Stasis.

Stasis is a soft lock on it's own and a hard lock once Frozen Aether has hit the board. Occasionally Stasis lands very early to stop a problem and then the game tends to go very long as both sides slowly recover from the turn 2 to 4 Stasis.

Frozen Aether is a nice delaying mechanism in it's own right, however it's very hard to land early on which is why Stasis has always been a mixed bag. Kismet, which is largely identical to Frozen Aether had the same problem. The ideal combo lands naturally, like SDT turn 1 and Counterbalance turn 2. Stasis, on the other hand, is delayed significantly by it's ponderous partners. One of the things that makes Frozen Aether workable here is that it also works with Back to Basics for a soft lock in the main deck and with Meekstone for a soft lock in the sideboard.

Back to Basics is a hoser for Threshold, Landstill, 43 Lands and about 80% of the rest of the current Legacy meta. It's a firm soft lock with Frozen Aether in play against much of the meta.

Moat is just an amazing anti-creature device against most of what kills you in Legacy. Defended by counters or counterbalance it can be GG really easily.

Draw/Tutors

Brainstorm is Brainstorm. In this deck it's Brainstorm+ because it works so well with Counterbalance in addition to it's other uses, giving you an effective 6+ cards to look at and put topdeck in most situations before activating Counterbalance.

Enlightened Tutor is what lets you play only one each of a bunch of nasty hosers and only 2 each of Stasis and Frozen Aether. It also allows you to put a 0 to 4 cc artifact or enchantment topdeck to use in conjunction with Counterbalance when you need it. For awhile I was running one Bazaar of Wonders in the deck to be able to put a 5cc enchantment top deck to use against Force of Will in the mid-game. The problem in the end was that this deck already chews up Threshold and Bazaar of Wonders had no other natural enemies that mattered by turn 7 or 8 which is when it could typically land.

Creatures

One Serra Avenger and one Serra Sphinx. Originally was two Serra Avengers until I realized how vulnerable I was with both my win conditions killable by the same solution. The deck's timeline supports killing with the Serra Sphinx and I've done that a few times.

Sideboard

Energy Flux eats Affinity and a few other decks alive.

Tabernacle is for Goblins (very effective) and Sui Black (not so but better than nothing).

The Leylines are for Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, UB reanimation in general and Crucible decks. If I sideboard them in I probably mull until I find one.

Meekstone comes in against the rogue decks that are just trying to get up a big creature and kill you. It lands turn 1 right after their ritualed Phyrexian Negator or Stifled Phyrexian Dreadnought and it keeps you alive long enough to recover.

Feldon's Cane is a situational tune, usually against dedicated control when I'm worried that the match will come down to somebody getting decked.

Academy Ruins tunes in with Feldon's Cane so I have a way to get it back if the cane is countered the first time around. The ruins also work with Engineered Explosives to good effect.

Stifle comes in against combo as an additional turn 1 or 2 answer. As a sideboard card against the right decks it's just very strong.

Ivory Mask is an additional resource against red burn and dedicated black discard. I can't say that it's all that effective at this point but it's better than Solitary Confinement in a slow deck like this.

Matchups

The deck eats Threshold alive and has good matchups against Landstill, 43 Lands and most combo decks that don't use the graveyard. It has a very good game two against virtually all combo decks.

On the down side Goblins is a tough matchup game one and Sui Black can be just devastating game one. Goblins can be tuned for and becomes much better game two. Sui Black is just the unfortunate matchup that is 25/75 at best unless they get a hosed draw.

buu
02-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Wow, that's a unique and interesting approach to Stasis:smile: The deck seems really consistent. The main difference seems to be the deck's ability to cope with early pressure without relying on getting Stasis into play on turn 3-4. My only concern is how the deck manages to maintain Stasis (once it hits play) with only 3 Forsaken Cities and 12 blue-mana producing land altogether? Sure, you can rely on Counterbalance to hold your opponent and usually you don't have to hurry with getting Stasis into play, but sometimes you're forced to play it earlier (if your CB gets countered or disenchanted)

FoolofaTook
02-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Wow, that's a unique and interesting approach to Stasis:smile: The deck seems really consistent. The main difference seems to be the deck's ability to cope with early pressure without relying on getting Stasis into play on turn 3-4. My only concern is how the deck manages to maintain Stasis (once it hits play) with only 3 Forsaken Cities and 12 blue-mana producing land altogether? Sure, you can rely on Counterbalance to hold your opponent and usually you don't have to hurry with getting Stasis into play, but sometimes you're forced to play it earlier (if your CB gets countered or disenchanted)

With the amount of dig the deck has and ways of reshuffling I generally see a Forsaken City by turn 7 or 8 which is when I really want to start thinking about putting Stasis down. I had 4 Forsaken Cities in the deck originally and removed 1 when I found myself seeing them in the opening hand too often. I want them in mid game not right away.

Stasis gets played early against Goblins mainly and Sui Black and only in desperation. If I have to play it turn 2 or 3 I'm going to lose most of the time. However if I'm in that situation and I don't play it I'm going to lose always, so it's a percentage play.

I believe that Stasis is not a tier 1 technology and probably never will be because it's a combo that needs to get played out of natural order and it's very vulnerable to narrow concepts that are going for the throat from turn 1. Non-Crucible Landkill and Heavy Burn are real problems also.

Goblins can be managed and you can beat them but it takes a good draw or a great mulligan to do it.

Editing to say: I just realized what your first question was. Stasis really only gets played with a Forsaken City on the board. It can be maintained for a few turns with just blue mana but it really needs the Forsaken City to win. I have chickened out occasionally and gone with a 4th Forsaken City in the sideboard to bring in against Crucible and rogue landkill but the right answer against Crucible is Leylines of the Void and rogue landkill really just does not have a right answer in this deck, which is one of it's weaknesses.

Cavius The Great
02-08-2008, 07:06 PM
I like FoolofaTook's take on Stasis. I can see a UW version having an edge against it's UG counterpart. One question though, have you ever thought of running Tormod's Crypt in place of leyline of the void? Mulliganning down to zero cards can be really annoying versus Ichorid and such. I also think that Propaganda would help your game plan significantly, all you have to do is make room for it. Other than that, I'm really fond of your build. Good job.

FoolofaTook
02-08-2008, 07:27 PM
I like FoolofaTook's take on Stasis. I can see a UW version having an edge against it's UG counterpart. One question though, have you ever thought of running Tormod's Crypt in place of leyline of the void? Mulliganning down to zero cards can be really annoying versus Ichorid and such. I also think that Propaganda would help your game plan significantly, all you have to do is make room for it. Other than that, I'm really fond of your build. Good job.

Tormod's Crypt is the other option for graveyard control. I prefer Leylines of the Void because it is uncounterable and it begins in play and it makes the opponent struggle from the opening draw. I could see putting in 1 Tormod's Crypt in the main deck if I could find room for it.

Propaganda is a very interesting option, because it would tend to keep the opponent tapped out when he was having success early on, setting him up for a nasty Stasis in mid-game. I'd have to figure out how to fit it in, maybe for one of the Wrath of Gods.

Poron
02-08-2008, 09:19 PM
I haven't a good decklist but we can make it together.

I will start saying that the list which is up here will never win anything...

1) it just doesn't win. ok it hardlocks and how much time does it take to win? 1 hour per match? it doesn't work in modern legacy

2) counterTop is definitly too slow here. legacy combo and aggro decks closes on the 3-4 turn. we need to get the hardlock for that turn not the counterTop combination...

3) Believe me, the right way to create competitive stasis deck is with green and with an "aggro" strategy. turn 8-9 kill with hardlock to make it solid.
Green and Blue Planeswalker MUST be included in the list.

In Italy now it's 3:19 a.m. so... I'll start making a list tomorrow

FoolofaTook
02-08-2008, 10:17 PM
Stasis and aggro just don't go together in the same sentence. If you have the successful rush that Stasis supposedly locks into a win then Stasis becomes a very clunky "win more".

The closest you're going to come to aggro-Stasis is Serra Avengers landing turn 3 and then Stasis locking down the response to them. The problem is that Stasis in and of itself is not a lock, and Stasis on turn 3 is significantly more hostile to the deck that plays it than to the opponent unless the opponent is in a 90% win situation already.

The other problem you will run into is that creatures without Vigilance really do not function all that well in the concept. You can work out solutions to the problem, but then you're engineering a solution to a problem that the deck naturally creates and there are very few good decks that do that.

Poron
02-08-2008, 10:36 PM
...with your deck, yes. :D

turn 1:
land
bop

turn 2
quirion ranger
stasis

you take turns you need while defending yourself from big threaths with FoW and Daze

then you drop a tarmagoyf or a Sea Drake or another Quirion and you win.

and this is the only way to make Stasis competitive.

CounterTop is hot, ok. but it's another deck. it needs lot of mana to use every turn the top, stasis is mana free.

4x Exploration
4x Scryb Ranger
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Tarmagoyf
4x Stasis
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Bird of Paradise
3x Sea Drake
4x Brainstorm
2x Impulse

20 Lands

We can start from here adding and removing what we need... I would start testing this list

every card has 1 colored mana in CC so it's pretty easy to fix the mana base too... and everything is very fast and cheap. it's all 1cc and 2cc with just the Sea Drake 3cc, and also if combo doesn't work... you can always win with fast Tarmagoyf and Sea Drake. while "defending" (if you need) with BoP and rangers... we just need something more to draw and the decklist seems pretty solid

if you feel not enough "defended" (and it's impossible with stasis... what attacks you once is never going to attack you again...) take into consideration: Wall of Roots, Wall of Blossoms.

not enough cantrip: other 2 Impulse, Opt or anything else...

not enough attack: the fourth Tarmagoyf... but it's enough anyway.

Mana Base: 6x fetchlands, 4x Tropical Island, 4x Breeding Pool other 6 lands divided as you choose...

FoolofaTook
02-08-2008, 10:57 PM
What happens when they kill your turn 1 BoP or turn 2 Quirion Ranger?

Decks in Legacy are not exactly short ways to kill a 1 toughness critter.

My guess, and this is just a guess, is that as soon as you lose a creature that is required under the concept you have a major mess on your hands because Stasis cannot be played minus one of those pieces.

There's a reason that Stasis has not dominated, and will not dominate at this point, and that's because it requires too many interlocking pieces to be highly competitive.

In the traditional Stasis concept the deck is just too slow because it needs 3cc and 4cc locking mechanisms in place before it lands.

In the concept you propose, which is very well thought out in terms of how the pieces intermesh, the big problem will be that a meta that is trying to kill a turn 1 Goblin Lackey and 2 Goyfs by turn 3 will be able to deal with the little creatures that you propose to use to power Stasis.

This all assuming that you will be able to assemble land, BoP, Quirion Ranger and Stasis in the opening hand. What are the odds of having even 3 of the 4 by turn 3?

Poron
02-09-2008, 12:46 AM
no man it's easier than how you make it.

to mantein a Stasis you just need 1 Ranger and a Tropical Island/Breeding Pool.

that's all.

to win you just need a Tarmagoyf. My "concept deck" is pretty solid and remember that we can always win without the stasis... 4Exploration and 4BoP means fast start and big mana. So we can have Sea Drakes and Tarma soon...

I'm sure that there's a lot to work on this deck before it becomes strong and I'm sure that it will never be a Tier1 but anyway this is strongest way to play Stasis. No doubts.

Poron
02-09-2008, 01:07 AM
I would also try Ravenous Baloth... I'm testing the list and we have all the mana we want everyturn

FoolofaTook
02-09-2008, 02:12 AM
no man it's easier than how you make it.

to mantein a Stasis you just need 1 Ranger and a Tropical Island/Breeding Pool.

that's all.

to win you just need a Tarmagoyf. My "concept deck" is pretty solid and remember that we can always win without the stasis... 4Exploration and 4BoP means fast start and big mana. So we can have Sea Drakes and Tarma soon...

I'm sure that there's a lot to work on this deck before it becomes strong and I'm sure that it will never be a Tier1 but anyway this is strongest way to play Stasis. No doubts.

My take on it is that it's probably stronger without Stasis at all. There's nothing in the deck that is going to stop somebody from dropping a land and StPing or Ghastly Demising your win condition. You have no Stasis lock, just a way to maintain Stasis until the opponent gets rid of it or what enables it.

What purpose does Stasis serve in the deck? Is it there to allow you to play an extremely low mana curve and differentiate from the opponent's deck in that way? Is it there to slow the opponent's ability to develop their own winning edge? Is it supposed to be a lock?

Even if you went the obvious route and figured out a Root Maze/Stasis lock that worked fast you'd still have the combinationality of trying to get the creatures, the enchantments and the counters all together to put the combo in play effectively. Thoughtseize all by itself would be a deck-killer once the opponent figured out which piece to pull.

The advantage of a slower approach with a lot of permission is that it gives the lock a chance to develop naturally as the game plays out. It's still a tier2, at best, concept but it's one that dominates about half the meta and is dominated by the other half.

One reason that I stopped fooling around with the UW thing above is that I found that a lot of rounds were going 1-0 with not enough time to play the second game of the match. When I won those it was great but when I lost them it sucked and I got tired of trying to figure out 15 minutes into a match whether I had the opponent by the balls or vice-versa. A quick concession of game 1 could lead to a match win still, but usually lead to a 1-1 draw.

Poron
02-09-2008, 02:14 AM
yes my stasis concept is not a "hardlock" one.

in this deck we use stasis the get those 3-4 turns in which I attack freely and the opponents stay sit and silent, that's my purpose, and I don't intend to waste my time brainstorming a hardlock -50turns wins- Stasis deck which is absolutly useless and unplayable...

if this is what you're trying to do no problem I simply can't help and there's no way to make a good stasis deck in the world: as you said it needs too many pieces

Shtriga
02-09-2008, 06:46 AM
first time ever I see "stasis" and "fun" in the same sentence :).

pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue pay a blue...


yes my stasis concept is not a "hardlock" one.

in this deck we use stasis the get those 3-4 turns in which I attack freely and the opponents stay sit and silent, that's my purpose, and I don't intend to waste my time brainstorming a hardlock -50turns wins- Stasis deck which is absolutly useless and unplayable...

although I do like this way of using stasis, to gain tempo, and not hardlock. it's a concept I've thought of before but could never think of a way to abuse it. on the other hand, if I played a guy using a hardlock/decking stasis I'd leave before turn 5 on every single game. it's just an exercise in patience and frustration, nothing else

Poron
02-09-2008, 07:40 AM
you would leave, ok. 95% of the other players wouldn't... and they would keep losing time, overall if they won the first game

FoolofaTook
02-09-2008, 11:34 AM
yes my stasis concept is not a "hardlock" one.

in this deck we use stasis the get those 3-4 turns in which I attack freely and the opponents stay sit and silent, that's my purpose, and I don't intend to waste my time brainstorming a hardlock -50turns wins- Stasis deck which is absolutly useless and unplayable...

if this is what you're trying to do no problem I simply can't help and there's no way to make a good stasis deck in the world: as you said it needs too many pieces

It's not 50 turns most of the time, it's 20 or 25. The hardlock that develops over time is the most effective way to use Stasis, because it does not interfere with itself in the development phase. The problem is finding a way to get to the hardlock without dying and that's a formidable process. Without Counterbalance/Top it's nearly impossible.

We're really arguing apples and oranges here though. The fact is that Stasis is not going to be dominant in either of our approaches. It's not going to be dominant in the mono-U that started the thread either. People have had 15 years now to come up with a great Stasis deck, and except in some limited environments have failed.

Cavius The Great
02-09-2008, 11:35 AM
You made some valid points Poron about the superiority of a UG build. I agree with everything that you've said and see your point. One thing really bothers me though about your build. Wasteland susceptibility. If I were you I'd definitely run 3-4 Pithing Needle maindeck. It not only stops you from losing, but Pithing Needle is such a versatile card that It's basically never a dead draw even when you're not playing around the dreaded Wasteland.

Thehunter820
02-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Maybe look at white splash, for things like Moat, and Serra Avenger would fit nicely there anyways.

Benie Bederios
02-12-2008, 04:21 AM
I've fooled with the aggroish UG version of the deck. I did play Frozen AEther as two off, just for the random oops-factor. I also played Chain of Vapor, because it's syenergie with Stasis. In testing I won quite some games( especially because quite some players scoop after you play a Stasis) but during tournaments, this will happen a lot less. You have to see the card as a Winter Orb on steroids.

The problem I encountered was, that it fits best in a stompy(oldschool, no Chalice Stompy) deck, but you have to play at least 20 lands to be able to play and maintain a early Stasis. And with such a low number, Exploration is meh and actually unneeded for the deck.

Wasteland isn't really really a problem if you have Birds of Paradise. Just bounce the Trop/Pool in responce and untap the Bird.

I think the biggest problem is the meta( read Thresh). The deck is nice against control decks like Landstill, who needs alot turns to get rid of the card, but weak most aggro and aggro control decks.

Poron
02-12-2008, 07:01 AM
3x Orb of Dreams SB and you change strategy for Control decks aiming to a hardlock...

FoolofaTook
02-12-2008, 11:05 AM
I think the biggest problem is the meta( read Thresh). The deck is nice against control decks like Landstill, who needs alot turns to get rid of the card, but weak most aggro and aggro control decks.

The UW version I posted does just fine against Threshold, dominating often. It has real problems against Sui Black and Goblins though, although only the Sui Black matchup is hopeless.

Banelich
02-16-2008, 01:27 AM
Stasis .... what can I say, this was somewhere around the 3rd deck "theory" I tried when new to the game well over 10 years ago. It saddens me to look at this thread and see some of my favorite cards are missing from all the posts thus far. Granted some of MY favorites are completely retarded in a stasis deck, they are at least worth mentioning for kicks.

Lets see 1st off my favorite form of stasis is a hardlock, wherein your opponent eventually ends up stuck in repeditive horrifying upkeeps while you skip most turns.

To this end the only card I've seen mention of is the Tog. Also available are Timevault, Meditate, Eater of Days.

Why skip turns? Upkeep. The first card that comes to mind is; Tangle Wire, sadly I'm sick dememented, and partially retarded so the second card that comes to mind is Energy Vortex (not energy field) This is another of the too many peices deck with this route, but when this is combined with hightides and a stasis, with or without tangle wires.....while you skip turns.....ugly! The other reason to skip turns...the cumulative upkeep on Glacial Chasm gets spendy, granted a little less effective with all the wastelands now days. A few other entertaining cards of note; Reset, Extraplanar Lens, Jinxed Choker, Propaganda, Rhystic Study, Mana Leak, Force Spike to name a few.

T is for TOOL
02-16-2008, 01:56 PM
Jace and Garruk both further the deck's gameplan and act as win conditions, so they should be run. Jace replaces Howling Mine and Garruk replaces Ebony Owl Netsuke. Garruk also allows you to keep Stasis out indefintely, so the Chain of Vapor count can be reduced to make way for other stuff. Energy Field cannot be run due to all of the Fetches and cantrips that hit your graveyard, so Propaganda is run in this spot instead. I haven't tested Fathom Seer at all, but I included him in the list because he provides much needed card advantage and also can provide a body to throw in the way of some aggro decks. Gigadrowse replaces Tangle Wire because we no longer skip turns and also it circumvents counterspells, Chalice, Stifle, Counterbalance, etc. Back to Basics defintely goes in the SB for Thresh and Landstill. You'll end up with something like this:

Enchantments
4x Stasis
4x Root Maze
3x Propaganda

Win Conditions
3x Jace Beleren
2x Garruk Wildspeaker

Manipulation and Card Draw
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Fathom Seer

Counters and Other Stuff
2x Gigadrowse
2x Chain of Vapor
4x Force of Will
3x Daze

Lands
2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Forsaken City
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
10x Island

Sideboard
4x Back to Basics
2x Gigadrowse
3x Stifle
3x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip

The only deck I've been able to test against thus far is Landstill, where Stasis seems to be favored. Goblins is probably a pretty ugly matchup, as is Ichorid. I'm not sure about any of the Threshold colors.

Cavius The Great
02-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Is your win con milling with Jace Beleren? I'm confused... Not sure what your win con would be.

T is for TOOL
02-16-2008, 02:11 PM
Either mill them with Jace, or use Garruk beast tokens.

Zach Tartell
02-16-2008, 02:35 PM
Or Fathom seer beats. I'd be a little wary of your low Green Source count - what about adding in like a basic forest, 4 birds, and a couple Quirion Rangers?

T is for TOOL
02-16-2008, 02:40 PM
Fathom Seer doesn't untap under Stasis, so you'd get one swing with it. Garruk can make a 3/3 token every other turn to attack with once. The deck wants to avoid running creatures it cares about leaving on the board because that creates virtual card advantage by giving your opponent dead removal as well as letting you drop Tabernacle without worrying about Wrathing your own side.

Cavius The Great
02-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Doesn't Root Maze have bad synergy with fetches or do you only drop Root Maze at particular times?

Pinder
02-16-2008, 03:36 PM
Doesn't Root Maze have bad synergy with fetches or do you only drop Root Maze at particular times?

I'm pretty sure you drop Root Maze when it will lock the opponent out of the game. At which point it ceases to matter if you can fetch. And either way, Garruk's untapping ability is so sexy with Stasis, that if you have him out you can play fetches under Root Maze, then untap them and a blue source with Garruk, and forever be able to fetch and pay for Stasis normally.

That said, I really like Tool's list.

T is for TOOL
02-16-2008, 05:20 PM
Doesn't Root Maze have bad synergy with fetches or do you only drop Root Maze at particular times? Yes, Root Maze has very bad synergy with Fetches. This is one of the main benefits of MD Maze. Aside from the fact that it creates a hardlock with Stasis out (and also protects City from Wasteland), the huge tempo loss it causes with Fetches can slow many Legacy decks in the early turns of the game. The deck runs 4 Fetches at the moment because of the need for green mana, and also the synergy with Brainstorm and Ponder, but you can control when Rootmaze resolves to minimize the potential problems it can cause you.

monopoman
04-03-2008, 08:35 PM
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
22 [UNH] Island
3 [PS] Forsaken City
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [B] Stasis
2 [MM] Thwart
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Arcane Denial
2 [TE] Propaganda
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [US] Morphling
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 [MM] Counterspell

Here is my current old school version of Stasis. I have no perm lock but I feel that it has decent game against a lot of decks. With the ability to play more control most spells are irrelevant after a certain point.

Standstill seems like an odd card but I will drop it on turn 2 against a lot of decks just to stall the game. I should prob run some mishras factories in that case but blue sources are at a premium in this deck.

The deck can sideboard to a more formal blue control deck which is nice as a surprise to the opponent.

Also against many decks prop+stasis might as well be a lock sure they can destroy prop or stasis. But odds are the game is so delayed at that point that you can easily replace it or take full control anyways.

badjuju
09-11-2008, 04:09 AM
Hey guys.

Sorry to necro, but I was just messing around looking for Stasis decks when I found this thread. I'm building this deck just to try it out (because I love lockdown decks), so here's my take on it. I'd like to see what you guys think of my insight of the deck and what other suggestions/comments you can make.

I'm not sure about the deck's ability to beat high-tier decks (in fact I don't believe it consistently could), but as for a mess-around deck the deck has its strengths. I don't believe that you need G or W to make the list work. The idea is to buy time and create a solid lock with Stasis + Tap card (ie. Root Maze, Frozen AEther, Kismet, Orb of Dreams), then mill your opponent using Chronatog or, now, Jace Beleren. To speed things up, Ebony Owl Netsukes can be added (which in itself is enough reason to run Jace and Mines, because they double as a way to feed an early Stasis as well as fuel your opponent's death).

Tackling the Redundancy of the Lock

Stasis is alright on its own. But it's just that: alright. Without the right tools it does nothing more than stop the game for a few turns (assuming you can even properly pay the upkeep for that long). You can create a soft lock using Forsaken City, but that doesn't prevent your opponent from continually playing more lands, so the deck calls for cards that tap your opponent's permanents before they get a chance to. The two primary candidates for monoU are Frozen AEther and Orb of Dreams (and Tangle Wire to a lesser extent). I'm not sure if both should be run (because they're both meh without Stasis), but having more of these in the deck will create greater consistency for the lock.

Win Conditions

The eternal bane of the deck. You could run G for Garruk and Goyf, or even white for Sphinxes and Serra Avenger. I don't think either are necessary. Jace Beleren can win the game by himself, and Chronatog can help. Sure both are succeptable to damage and removal, but you aren't going to run these guys out there without some sort of control (or counters) over the board. Chronatog works even faster because of the double-draw effect from Howling Mine. Jace speaks for himself, and is faster than you'd think.

Ebony Owl Netsuke could be an addition to really finish the game quickly.

Protection and Buying Time

The hardest part of the deck. The Stasis + Frozen AEther lock is weak because you need either a Forsaken City or a Howling Mine before it truly works. Everything you do before that is a very, very tough battle. The obvious is to run counterspells backed by bounce, so we're going to do exactly that. I believe that running the FoW, Daze, Thwart package is the best. Cards like Arcane Denial and other cheap counterspells just don't cut it (for the sake of the argument: you aren't going to need Arcane Denial once you have the lock out, and if you don't have the lock out, Arcane Denial is a horrible counterspell. Conclusion? It sucks and don't run it). Chain of Vapor suffices as the cheapest bounce the deck has to offer (you won't usually use it on your opponent unless it's early game. At that time you won't have any important lock pieces out anyways).

I believe the Energy Field plan is alright, but still hokey. I'm not sure if I'd like to rely on something that fragile (tell me if I'm wrong, I actually haven't tested the card). Propaganda is probably the next, most sound choice - buying enough time for you to get your lock out and still works well with Stasis.

As for utility: the two cards I'm looking at are Impulse and Muddle the Mixture. Both have their strengths; Impulse able to dig deep and Muddle able to fetch out Stasis/Ebony Owl Netsuke ontop of being a mild counterspell. Which one is better I'm not sure yet. I'd like to hear your comments on this one. (Brainstorm isn't good without shuffle effects, so it's a pass on that one.)

--------------------------------------
Here is my current list:

// Lands
18 [PT] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [PS] Forsaken City

// Creatures
1 [VI] Chronatog
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [PLC] Frozen AEther
2 [BOK] Orb of Dreams
4 [U] Howling Mine
4 [B] Stasis
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [VI] Impulse
3 [TE] Propaganda

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [GP] Gigadrowse
SB: 3 [6E] Chill
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth

Alternative is to run Muddle with Ebony Owl over Chronatog.
Also for casual, I guess you could turn Impulse into Gush haha.

Forbiddian
09-11-2008, 04:54 AM
Is there still that rule where if your opponent casts a Stasis you can punch them in the face?

badjuju
09-11-2008, 05:11 AM
Is there still that rule where if your opponent casts a Stasis you can punch them in the face?

Yea it's still there. IMO it's worth the face punch watching you slowly die by milling your deck one card at a time. :tongue:

Poron
09-11-2008, 11:02 AM
a good "instant win" hardlock condition is Jace + Orb of Dreams + Forsaken City

you can understand perfectly how it works. The problem is to put it into play fast and safe. That can be pretty hard...

Fons
09-11-2008, 11:28 AM
U/G with Tezzeret and Garruk gives you good wincons and allows you to still do things.

Running Artifact Lands would definitly give you an edge

Zinch
09-12-2008, 05:31 AM
The problem with an stasis deck is not asembling the lock and having a winning position... is winning in a short time.

I had a stasis deck that killed with jace beleren (similar to the last one in the second page), and it wasn't so bad, but in a tourney, you won't have time to win the second and third match if you lose the first. THAT'S the problem with the deck

Adding tezzeret can be a solution: search for your seats of the synod without wasting loyalty, untap two artifact lands to pay for the upkeep and you bounce your own stasis at the end of your oponent's turn and attack with all your artifact lands... I like the idea... You may want to add mox diamonds or chrome mox in this deck

Forbiddian
09-12-2008, 05:34 AM
That's been discussed. Owl Netsuke is a reasonable win condition. If you win G1, you can board it out for stuff that helps you dig out the combo, since winning 1-0 is pretty much the same as winning 2-0.

Zinch
09-12-2008, 06:10 AM
That's been discussed. Owl Netsuke is a reasonable win condition. If you win G1, you can board it out for stuff that helps you dig out the combo, since winning 1-0 is pretty much the same as winning 2-0.

You've said it: IF you win G1...
Owl Netsuke is not a reasonable win condition: You need either mine or beleren or your opponent will play all the lands and make the match eternal, and even with that combination, against a deck with exploration or belcher or TES, he can play all the free spells and lands and just win the round 0-1

FoolofaTook
09-12-2008, 11:51 AM
Here's a really narrow Stasis deck that looks to use one card as it's win con.

Stasis Suite (13)

4x Root Maze
4x Stasis
4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Gigadrowse

Disruption (18)

3x Energy Field
3x Chain of Vapor
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Tutor/Filter (8)

4x Ponder
4x Enlightened Tutor

Mana Lands (21)

4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Health
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Island
3x Forsaken City

It has all of the problems that a Stasis deck normally has, which include the need to find and successfully deploy several permanents and then safeguard them until the lock is in place. It also has a very low casting curve, which is good against most decks but weak against Counterbalance.

The way the deck tries to win is to exploit a couple of synergies. Root Maze, Stasis and Forsaken City is the locking piece. Wheel of Sun and Moon (targetting self) and Energy Field is the main protective combo that Enlightened Tutor goes to find. Wheel of Sun and Moon then doubles as the win con as you try to deck your opponent. Wheel of Sun and Moon is also good as a defensive piece against decks trying to exploit the graveyard so it serves three purposes in the deck.

The problem with the deck basically comes down to three widely played cards: Counterbalance, which shuts it down fairly quickly, Krosan Grip which takes the piece of the combo most vulnerable and ditches it and Extirpate, which if it takes Wheel of Sun and Moon, Root Maze or Stasis pretty much wins the game by itself.

No, this is not a competitive deck at the moment in Legacy and it's not likely to become one. There are a couple of things I've noticed in testing it though. Root Maze on turn 1 on the play really slows the opponent down as well as basically locking storm combo out of an early win. Wheel of Sun and Moon and Energy Field win games all on their own if the opponent is not maindecking Krosan Grip. Just save the counters for Deed or Engineered Explosives and you win. Unfortunately many decks are main-decking Krosan Grip at this point.

4eak
09-12-2008, 01:44 PM
I'm always interested to see how magic decks would evolve outside time limits (a practice that doesn't exist in our house), and Stasis is one of those decks that could probably defeat a ton of Tourney decks in a vacuum, but it can never be competitive because its clock is terribly slow.

I have to say: I love your take on Stasis FoolofaTook. The energy field/wheel fits in nicely. We will certainly have to try this flavour of Stasis. I have a few questions though:

With E-Tutors, why not a singleton Orb/Kismet/Aether in the deck? Root Maze isn't a hard lock against some decks, and (while you might argue your permission makes up for it) I think adding the possible hardlock has merit (depending on what decks you will see...which should be odd ones considering you play a very hated card).

Why Ponder? Our (meaning 'our fairly unique metagame in Thailand') extensive testing of these two cards, even in Stasis decks, has continually proven Brainstorm (alongside fetches and E-tutors) to be the stronger card. The instant speed cannot be overlooked. Even Impulse acted as a stronger card than Ponder for us in Stasis.

Why 4/3 split on Wheel/Energy Field? Wouldn't you prefer it the other way around? Maybe even 2/4 split?

You run green, but you don't run Garruk, why? He ain't shabby.

3x Forsaken City seems odd as well. I found the desire for opening on T2 Stasis/Forsaken lock to be so strong that 4x Cities were the minimum. Tell me your thoughts.

Assuming your deckbuilding does not take time limits into account at all (which is understandably a big assumption):

Have you considered running a deck with more than 60 cards in it?

While 60-card decks are definitely correct in 99.9% of all cases, Stasis provides a very unique decking/prison opportunity in which running more than 60 cards is a very viable option (yes, a very twisted opportunity that reminds of the phrase "I'd take pleasure in guttin' you, boy"). Our best versions of Stasis just drop a hard lock at appropriate times and just count libraries. Running say...a 65-card Stasis deck enables us to Cantrip a few times and still maintain higher library count when the lock drops, and the game is sealed for us at that point.

Lastly, where is Equipoise? That card does some crazy tricks.


peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook
09-12-2008, 02:28 PM
Ponder over Brainstorm because both don't fit and you really need to be able to look at the top three cards on your library on turn 1 and reshuffle if you don't like what you see. Brainstorm is a more powerful card overall but it doesn't quite have the same synergy on turn 1 and this deck really needs to hit the ground running. Bad opening hands get mulliganed and then Ponder is even more important because your odds on drawing a fetch alongside your blue instant go down at that point. I also want to use my fetches first so that I thin the deck as much as possible, Brainstorm makes me want to hold fetches and play other lands until I'm ready to shuffle away some excess land for new cards. Brainstorm is stronger against the kind of targetted discard that we see early on, however this deck almost never has untapped mana open to use it in the first few turns.

Frozen Aether is a real possibility as a singleton given the four Enlightened Tutors. I think Root Maze is a stronger card in this meta though because it lands turn 1. That has a bigger effect than it seems since it effectively timewalks you into your second turn, only with 1 land already down. Slowing the game down in the first turn or two is critical to the deck's chances to win, and between Root Maze, Chain of Vapor, Swords to Plowshares and the counters you have eighteen cards that can do that. I might still go for one Frozen Aether to give the deck a chance against an early Counterbalance. I would probably go with four Root Maze and one Frozen Aether if I decided to do that.

Four Forsaken City or three is something I went back and forth on. I don't really want Forsaken City in the opening hand. I can't afford to drop it turn 1 and I can't maintain it until I have the lock in place. I had two Tolaria West in the deck for a bit, thinking that I could tutor for either the Tabernacle or Forsaken City if I needed them. That just did not work. Too slow and it gave the opponent an extra half turn's lead time to try to wriggle out of the lock. So now If I drop Root Maze turn 1 I am usually Pondering a turn or two later to see if I can find a Forsaken City. It's not a good way to do this, but then again the entire concept is unwieldy so having the Forsaken City lock piece not readily available is not a killer in and of itself. Chain of Vapor kind of fills a gap in the early Stasis attempts if Forsaken City is not available. If I ever got this concept to the point that it was running smoothly except for the Forsaken City's then I'd find a way to put the fourth in.

Your point on the split between Wheel of Sun and Moon and Energy Field is valid. I need both in play though for their effect to work and if I only have Energy Field then I have at best a turn or two respite. Wheel is the key card in the deck and I want to have as many of them as I can. It not only powers Energy Field and is the decking win con but it also stops Ichorid dead in it's tracks and makes Life from the Loam decks much less effective. It also protects the deck from Extirpate to some extent, although it's just a stopgap there. I went 3/3 in the initial split with one more Gigadrowse and then I decided to add the fourth Wheel because it seemed like I always had a use for it early.

This deck has to be 60 cards. I have to find Root Maze, Stasis, Wheel of Sun and Moon AND Forsaken City in order to have any real chance of winning. That's a huge number of permanents to have to put together and it's the main reason the deck is weak. If I took out the counters for search tools, which is one reasonable option, then my control of the early game goes away and I die while I am searching for the combo. One example would be to take out four Force of Will and three Daze for four Sensei's Divining Top and three Counterbalance. My search capability has just gone way up, however I have lost 40% of my early game control, as well as being hugely vulnerable to sweepers like Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.

How would Equipoise function in the deck? I see possibilities but I haven't used the card yet so I'd be very interested in hearing your description of how it interacts with the defensive theme. I could see taking something out for it if it's going to be strong in the early game.

The other card that I have tried to fit in but not been able to is Sterling Grove. There are fifteen targettable enchantments that I really want to keep around and Sterling Grove seems like such a wonderful answer to Krosan Grip. I just can't find the space for it. If I added either Frozen Aether or Equipoise to the deck I'd probably go back and rework things to try to get three Sterling Grove in too.

badjuju
09-12-2008, 03:37 PM
@Foolofatook

That's a pretty awesome decklist you got there, the only reason I'm still holding on to the mono blue is cause the two of the three pieces of the lock are all interchangeable. Howling Mine and Jace replace Forsaken City, and Frozen AEther replaces Orb of Dreams. Redundancy improves consistency, backed by a whole cast of counterspells to buy time. Your deck handles things pretty well, but yea it does win much slower without a definite win condition (no Jace, no Garruk, no Owl, no Tog).

Here is a decklist that actually placed in a legacy tournament. I won't try and falsify any claims: there were only 18 people at the event....but the entire top 8 was full of real decks - UGr Thresh, Ungiven Survival, Stiflenought, 5C Loam, MUC/b, Trinketfish, It'sthefear, and TURBO STASIS. The decklist itself is more control oriented and, note, runs 64 cards. Tangle Wire seems pretty potent in this deck, especially if coupled with Stasis. What the other blue versions lacked was a card that bought them time early on, and Tangle Wire does that perfectly. The only problem is that it hurts you pretty bad as well, and you pretty much need a Forsaken City or bust. With Chronatog, it might as well be a Frozen AEther or Orb of Dreams.


Turbo Stasis
by Takumi Ito

1 Chronatog
4 Howling Mine
4 Tangle Wire
2 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Orb of Dreams
3 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Foil
3 Arcane Denial
1 Thwart
3 Rushing River
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace Beleren
17 Island
4 Forsaken City
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Ivory Tower
2 Tsabo's Web
1 Propaganda
4 Stifle
1 Thwart
1 Foil
1 Arcane Denial
1 Rushing River
1 Chronatog

Uh yea, about that sideboard...lol. ANYWAYS................

I like the list for the most part, and would like to hear your guys' opinions on it as well.

4eak
09-13-2008, 04:45 AM
Ponder over Brainstorm because both don't fit and you really need to be able to look at the top three cards on your library on turn 1 and reshuffle if you don't like what you see.

We've made Stasis decks that run 8 cantrips. More importantly, instead of a cantrip, your preferred first turn play is probably root maze though, right?

Brainstorm's ability to trade between library and hand makes it just as powerful as Ponder on T1. Additionally, even given the chance, I rarely fetch away my first brainstorm, I usually fetch away my second and third brainstorm. However, fetch isn't used to shuffle, it is your first play to get your dual before Maze hits play.

I think if you run Root Maze, then you probably shouldn't have many fetches. In light of that, I could definitely see Ponder as being stronger (if you adjusted your land base) than Brainstorm. Admittedly, we often play a more control position which requires we leave that mana open (making Brainstorm the preference).

Root Maze + Fetchlands just plays out all wrong. So, yeah, Ponder seems stronger (just without the fetches).


Four Forsaken City or three is something I went back and forth on. I don't really want Forsaken City in the opening hand. I can't afford to drop it turn 1 and I can't maintain it until I have the lock in place.

I differ with you on this. I love to see it in my opening hand. I want to drop Stasis on Turn 2, always. It isn't a true mana-source in my eyes. Using it as a land is uncommon, but when I do so it requires attention to the number of cards left in my hand.


I had two Tolaria West in the deck for a bit, thinking that I could tutor for either the Tabernacle or Forsaken City if I needed them

As painful as it might sound to a deck that is so very land-greedy, we have found Crop Rotation to be an excellent choice. Tabernacle can't be played effectively in multiples, and Forsaken is always the hardest lock-piece to find.

Also, ESG has had interesting results in playing Maze/Stasis Combo.


This deck has to be 60 cards.

No, it really doesn't. You can increase things like cantrips to increase to improve your odds of seeing the cards you want and it eliminates the need for Wheel in situations where you would normally have fewer cards in your library than your opponent. Playing more than 60 cards makes Wheel or Feldon's Cane unnecessary in many cases.


I have to find Root Maze, Stasis, Wheel of Sun and Moon AND Forsaken City in order to have any real chance of winning. That's a huge number of permanents to have to put together and it's the main reason the deck is weak.

What I found so lovely about your decklist was the inclusion of Wheel/Field. Feldon's Cane was so narrow, but Wheel is much more versatile. Energy Field just makes for a beautiful softlock. This deck wants to drop soft-locks and control the game until it can reach a hard-lock state. I don't think getting the pieces together is all that difficult.

We have to really evaluate the locks in this deck:

-Stasis/Forsaken is a soft-lock
-Wheel/Field is a soft-lock if they have answers but a hard-lock if they don't have answers (some decks just flat lose 1st game to this)
-Stasis/Forsaken/Maze is a hardlock under safe board positions and library counts
-Stasis/Forsaken/Maze/Wheel is a hardlock under safe board positions and unsafe library counts
-Stasis/Forsaken/Maze/Field/Wheel is a hardlock under unsafe board positions and library counts

Notice that Stasis/Forsaken is still the heart and soul of the deck (You don't have Chronatog or Vedalken Mastermind). Two problems arise that require more than Stasis/Forsaken/Maze:

1. You are in unsafe board positions.
2. Your library count is lower than your opponents

Of course, Wheel attempts to solve both of these, but at a huge cost -- it adds at least 1-2 pieces that you must tutor up and play. For the second problem, it is much easier to solve by just having more than 60 cards in the library. This gives you many, many more resources to get the base hardlock pieces: Stasis/Forsaken/Maze.

Try out 65ish cards.


How would Equipoise function in the deck? I see possibilities but I haven't used the card yet so I'd be very interested in hearing your description of how it interacts with the defensive theme. I could see taking something out for it if it's going to be strong in the early game.

Equipoise combos with Stasis because phasing-in only occurs during the untap step. Equipoise+Stasis is like casting mini-Balance during every upkeep. Some decks, especially lifeloss based, can win through even your hardest locks. Ravager/Disciple and Fireblast are decent examples. Equipoise limits these a great deal.


The other card that I have tried to fit in but not been able to is Sterling Grove

I like it. U/G/W is difficult.

I think the hardest part of Stasis is developing a mana-base that interacts properly with the control/lock components of the deck. If you run Root Maze, then fetch sucks. If you run too few colors then your deck is too slow and lacks answers, etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about this?

Lock Pieces: 17

4x Root Maze
4x Stasis
4x Forsaken City
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Energy Field
1x Equipoise

Control: 14

4x Force of Will
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Porphyry Nodes (Could be Pendrell Mists instead)

Card Quality: 13

4x Ponder
2x Impulse -- Makes the deck feel much smaller than 65 cards, and it pitches to FoW.
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sterling Grove -- Strong, but mana expensive.
2x Crop Rotation -- Wish this could goto 4x -- it grabs the hard to find Forsaken City and your Tabernacle at will.

Mana Base: 21

4x Tropical Island
4x Breeding Pool -- Can't play fetchlands with Maze, so we've gotta do this.
4x Tundra
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Treva's Ruins -- This card plays around Stasis very well.
1x Seat of the Synod -- E-tutor target that happens enough that the card has a place



peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook
09-13-2008, 11:57 PM
@Yesmilord

Very interesting list there. Is the 64 cards because of a lack of slots for needed things under 60, for the worry about decking yourself first, or a combination of the two?

How do the Howling Mines work in practice? I wanted to put 2 of them in with Root Maze on the theory that they'd usually come into play after Root Maze and be tapped for the opponent's first draw phase after but untapped for mine. I've played several decks that relied on Howling Mines in the dim single format past and I remember them being a double-edged sword, even in decks that were using them as a locking piece.

@4eak

Definitely something to think about in the list you put together. If I was going to go 65 cards I'd want to have 4 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Sterling Grove and probably at least 3 Crop Rotation. Not sure how to get there though since none of them are blue. It's a decent well thought out list though so I should probably put it together and see how it draws before I start thinking about how it could be improved.

I'm working on a Stasis-less list also. Faux-Stasis or something like that.

badjuju
09-14-2008, 02:28 AM
@Yesmilord

Very interesting list there. Is the 64 cards because of a lack of slots for needed things under 60, for the worry about decking yourself first, or a combination of the two?

How do the Howling Mines work in practice? I wanted to put 2 of them in with Root Maze on the theory that they'd usually come into play after Root Maze and be tapped for the opponent's first draw phase after but untapped for mine. I've played several decks that relied on Howling Mines in the dim single format past and I remember them being a double-edged sword, even in decks that were using them as a locking piece.


The list isn't mine. I found it on a deck-database website that hosts the results of every tournament (major and minor), and that's what gave me the idea to try it out in the first place. The 64 cards is definitely there to ensure that you won't deck before your opponent does, especially if you are forced into a position where you have to lock out the game early on with no extra mana to cast Chronatog or Jace. So, no, I don't believe it's a lack of slots that led the deck to grow over 60.

Howling Mines in practice CAN be a double-edged sword. In this deck, however, Mines constantly serve and fuel several important functions:

-an extra card per turn for Forsaken City w/ Stasis out.
-an extra chance to obtain a blue source, given you don't have Forsaken City w/ Stasis out.
-tossed fodder for Foil (a vastly underrated card, especially in this deck with Anvil of Bogardan) as well as tossed fodder for Force of Will
-to speed the game up in terms of milling your opponent. Remember after playing a mine that your opponent will always draw first.
-and obviously to dig for lock pieces.

Tangle Wire is really an amazing card in the deck, especially with Chronatog+Stasis. One of the mono-blue's main problems was also halting an early onslaught: free counterspells backed by a quick Tangle Wire easily sets back the other player for a considerable amount of time. This is where you have to take Howling Mine into consideration. You may be helping them out, yes, but as long as you're constantly setting them back (with the wires and free countermagic), you're buying yourself time for a hardlock that they won't be able to overcome. In other words, the cards you draw of Mine will eventually outweigh whatever your opponent will gain.

The deck also doesn't focus particularly on the Stasis lock. It plays like a monoU permission deck with Howling Mines, free counterspells, and an eventual hardlock. This more gradual approach is probably more viable than a lockdown deck that has to sorta "fish" around for its pieces while the rest of the deck is full of do-nothing-by-itself or hit-and-miss cards.

There are a few card choices I find questionable, however:

-Brainstorm: doesn't really do anything for the deck. As the only 1CC spell in the deck however, there are better replacements. The lack of library manipulation makes the card much weaker. I would replace this with Serum Visions or Impulse (both of which dig for what you need).

-Anvil of Bogardan: acts as another Howling Mine (sorta) AND synergizes with the insane amount of cards you will be drawing to pump FoW and Foil. I'm not sure if the card is actually necessary, however. It's convenient at times, but not something that I would see as crucial.

-Orb of Dreams: is cheaper, can be returned by Academy Ruins, but is vastly weaker than its bigger brother Kismet and its evil twin, Frozen AEther. The problem with the Kismet cards is that they are 4CC versus 3CC. Let me say now though, that Orb of Dreams really sucks because of its symmetry. This means you virtually have to have all of your other pieces out when you cast it (and is definitely a no-go without Forsaken City to pay the Stasis upkeep cost). I would replace it with Frozen AEther.

-Rushing River: is a good bounce card and can buy massive amounts of time and tempo...but is it really worth the kicker cost? Also, the 3CC is a bit hefty, especially if you had an EOT bounce Stasis in mind. I'm not sure if it stays, but a well-timed kickered' Rushing River can really mess up any opposing deck.


That's about it for my thoughts on that list. I think it's pretty solid in terms of gradually building up to the lock. What do you think?

4eak
09-14-2008, 08:01 AM
Howling Mines in practice CAN be a double-edged sword.

I'm an avid Stasis player (yeah, my friends still like me), and I've played Turbo stasis a good deal as well. Turbo stasis came into existence because other versions just didn't have a clock. Turbo-Stasis locks are still inferior, but its win-condition is simply better in timed rounds.

Howling mine does serve to break the symmetry of Stasis, but it is almost always worse than a double-edged sword until the turn you drop stasis.

Here is the problem: Howling mine isn't symmetrical.

Howling mine costs you a card, 2 mana, and your opponent draws first (which puts you 2 cards down during their turn). This means that your opponent has a 2-mana card in his hand that generally isn't symmetrical that you don't answer, and he get's the first draw. If Howling mine was free, it cost no tempo/mana nor card in hand (it cantripped as CiP), and it said you drew the card during your end step, then I would like the card.

I have never regretted letting Howling Mine resolve against me. I only regret not answering whatever card abuses Howling Mine instead.

I will grant that Stasis definitely breaks the symmetry of Howling Mine, but only because Howling Mine breaks the symmetry of Stasis. You can play things and your opponent can't. Great card, but it transforms the deck into something that has a lot less control. At some point, I really have to ask, why play Stasis in the deck when this plays a whole lot like a weakened MUC with an odd combo finish?


Tangle Wire is really an amazing card in the deck, especially with Chronatog+Stasis.

Tangle Wire is a sick card in the right decks. It is a literal time walk in some cases. You tap 3 (non-TW) Permanents while your opponent taps 10 permanents over 4 turns. At low permanent counts this card is even better than a colorless timewalk, especially if you have the mana-acceleration to play under it. In Stasis, Tangle Wire plays a different role. Yes, it can be used to Time Walk, but it also serves unique tap functions under Stasis/Forsaken.

I have to admit, in my testing with Tangle Wire in Stasis, I've found the card to be either too temporary an answer on the board or a win-more card. Running Tangle Wire in Stasis is similar to running Tangle Wire in a deck like MUC. It does stuff, and it buys you time, but there are just better cards for the slot. Tanglewire just doesn't have a place in a deck that isn't playing stuff under it.


The deck also doesn't focus particularly on the Stasis lock.

The deck certainly has many control elements that regular Stasis may lack, but it certainly focuses on Stasis. This deck just doesn't drop stasis as early or consistently as other versions until it has already controlled the game.

I have found Turbo Stasis to be an inferior version of its slower counterparts, but it trades its strength for a chance at actually winning a game or two in a timed round.

Stasis is a deck that probably can only be effective in online tournaments or venues with no time limits.

All this talk of Turbo Stasis has given me another idea though. Let me get back to you on a different build.


peace,
4eak

badjuju
09-14-2008, 05:38 PM
@4eak

From my testing, the temporary solution provided by Tangle Wire is exactly what the deck needs against aggro (or even control in some cases). It's there in the place of what would otherwise be another defensive card such as Propaganda or Energy Field. Propaganda IS better overall against aggro, but Tangle Wire works against all decks and doubles as a lock piece.

The decklist is merely a suggestion, since someone was actually crazy enough to take it into a tournament haha.

Here's another version I'm trying to edit:


// Lands
18 [PT] Island (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [PS] Forsaken City

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [PLC] Frozen AEther
4 [U] Howling Mine
4 [B] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [VI] Impulse
3 [PY] Foil
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MM] Thwart

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [GP] Gigadrowse
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [6E] Chill

One of the main problems is balancing creature control versus cards that are universally good (ie countermagic). I originally had Energy Field in the deck (and it is VERY good against aggro), but it wasn't always what I needed against most other decks. What do you guys think? (this compared to the japanese turbo stasis list)

FoolofaTook
09-14-2008, 09:16 PM
Does Root Maze do enough to break the hostile assymetry of Howling Mine to make it a viable option? I keep looking at that and going back and forth on whether getting an extra card first is worth the 2cc investment in playing it.

I'm always very card hungry trying to assemble the lock and then card hungrier trying to maintain it.

4eak
09-14-2008, 09:25 PM
The Mono-U version is definitely elegant in color requirements, but perhaps limited in versatility.


1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

How is this working out for you? How many times have you used it to bring up your Howling Mines? How many times did you prefer this was tapping for a blue?


3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

This card is very cool. All three abilities are relevant to a Stasis deck, and the card is mana-cheap. Here is my problem: Jace is very hard to protect. Propaganda does not protect Jace, it only protects you.


4 [NE] Daze

I have mixed feelings about this card in Stasis. In a MUStasis, which is largely MUC, it really hurts to lose your mana base (this is why we rarely see Daze in a non-tempo aggro-control deck). In Turbo Stasis, you have the ability to just flat drop Stasis and feed it through Mines, building a sizeable land base, and then CoVing it to replay it with an even larger land base that can play spells. Daze can act as a spell that helps to continue to pay for Stasis, and it definitely does its job while your opponent is completely locked in Stasis, but I really do think this is the wrong call before you have played Stasis and a win more card after you have played Stasis.


3 [PY] Foil

Definitely a must have in Turbo-Stasis. I hate opening with these though. I'd probably up Thwart to 2 myself.


4 [VI] Impulse

Have you tried running Ponder? I know you don't like Brainstorm, but your 1cc slots are fairly limited. Ponder might belong in this deck.


In the end, I don't think MUStasis is going to be as viable as Stasis decks that splash for W and/or G. By playing MUStasis we lose:

Swords to Plowshares/E-tutor
Crop Rotation/Wheel/Root Maze

Assembling the hardlock is a necessity, and the sooner the better in my experience. If you are controlling the game pre-lock for an extended period of time, then you are really playing MUC (not Stasis). When I play Turbo-MUStasis, I really have to ask, why not play MUC instead?


Does Root Maze do enough to break the hostile assymetry of Howling Mine to make it a viable option? I keep looking at that and going back and forth on whether getting an extra card first is worth the 2cc investment in playing it.

Root Maze is first turn. Root maze is 0.5-1.0ish a time walk in the early game. Root Maze is easier to play against control decks (than its alternatives). Root Maze is a card I want early, and it wrecks a lot of mana bases all by itself.

Howling Mine is a card that I don't want to play when I'm already down, but I enjoy it when I'm already up. Playing the card turn 2 means that your opponent's fundamental turn 3 (which is where I place the Legacy format in general) is going to be powered by an extra card while you are down. Howling mine perpetuates a position in which you were already winning, but it rarely helps you come back from a game in which you were losing.





peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook
09-14-2008, 10:09 PM
Root Maze is first turn. Root maze is 0.5-1.0ish a time walk in the early game. Root Maze is easier to play against control decks (than its alternatives). Root Maze is a card I want early, and it wrecks a lot of mana bases all by itself.

Howling Mine is a card that I don't want to play when I'm already down, but I enjoy it when I'm already up. Playing the card turn 2 means that your opponent's fundamental turn 3 (which is where I place the Legacy format in general) is going to be powered by an extra card while you are down. Howling mine perpetuates a position in which you were already winning, but it rarely helps you come back from a game in which you were losing.

The point on Root Maze and Howling Mine is that when you play Root Maze turn 1 and Howling Mine turn 3 you get to draw the first extra card. It comes into play tapped, and so it's not functional for the opponent on his turn 3, then it untaps and you draw the extra card on your turn 4. Howling Mine is errata'd to turn off when tapped, as it functioned that way prior to the general change in which artifacts now function when tapped unless they have a tap in the function.

badjuju
09-14-2008, 11:18 PM
@4eak

-Academy Ruins was in the other list for obvious reasons (Wires, Orbs, Mines, etc.). Honestly, I haven't activated it using my current list, but it has never hindered me either.

-I understand the problem with Jace, and it is a very relevant one. However, the deck does have enough protection (at least with counterspells and such), that he'll at least howl for a few cards before going down. In another sense, he also distracts your opponent from yourself, buying much needed time (note that you're using him for his howling mine ability, so he'll be at 5 from the get-go). It isn't so bad once you actually try it out though. Just be smart about in what kind of position you're dropping him in and he'll go a long way.

-About Daze, I've noticed that, yes, it does hurt the deck's mana development. I wouldn't necessarily place it in the "wrong call" before Stasis because you honestly don't need that much mana to function anyways. As much as it sets you back, you're also countering key spell that will set them back - buying time is the goal here.

-I can see upping Thwart to two. I never like seeing any of those early on, but Mine / Jace really make the 'free' counterspells shine.

-Ok wow. I can't believe I totally forgot about Ponder. The card is most likely better than Impulse in this deck, and probably even better than Serum Visions in the other. Thanks for that suggestion!

-As for the argument of splashing colors - I think both are viable, but I also believe blue is strong (not stronger, just strong) because of its ability to handle a wider variety of problems without the heavy dependency of various locks. The gameplan is to buy time and build up towards the hard lock (and the beauty of the japanese list is that the lock just sorta happens, there are many routes towards the same goal) - cards like Tangle Wire buy immense amounts of time and alt-cast cost countermagic is fueled by Howling Mines. With monoU, you're building up as you go with very much needed protection... and I'm sure you know that the multiple mine effects go a long way in aiding you to get what you need when you need it. Without any locks the deck can still function as blue permission; that's one of the main things I like most about it.


On another note, if you had to optimize a list for monoU Turbo Stasis, what would it look like? I'm curious to see what cards you'd cut and keep.

4eak
09-14-2008, 11:19 PM
It comes into play tapped, and so it's not functional for the opponent on his turn 3, then it untaps and you draw the extra card on your turn 4. Howling Mine is errata'd to turn off when tapped, as it functioned that way prior to the general change in which artifacts now function when tapped unless they have a tap in the function.

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that. I thought you were asking a different question altogether (concerning the 1st turn strength of Root Maze overcoming the tempo losses of a Howling mine in virtue of Root Maze time walks).

I'm still not convinced that it is worth the slot or the 2 mana even if you benefit first.

I'm going to continue on your version of the deck FoolofaTook. I've been tweaking here and there as I test. Here is my updated version of the list:

Lock Pieces: 15

4x Root Maze
4x Stasis
4x Forsaken City
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Energy Field
1x Equipoise

Control: 13

4x Force of Will
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Card Quality: 16

4x Ponder
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Sterling Grove
4x Crop Rotation

Mana Base: 20

4x Tropical Island
4x Breeding Pool
4x Tundra
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Treva's Ruins


A few notes...The deck uses card disadvantage tutors. This is good and bad. It means that the deck isn't thinning (which is very important) as it tutors, but on the flip side, it means your hand get's owned. Balancing the Stasis hands are actually quite difficult.

Crop Rotation for Tabernacle is just too common not to play 4x Crop Rotation. With 8 Tutors for stasis, and now 4 for lands, we have a good balance for the odds of seeing our Forsaken City as well.

I've dropped Wheel/Field to 1 each. Why?

First, there are 8-Enchantment tutors in the deck, and Sterling usually negates the need to run multiples if I can't protect my first one drop. The deck is packed, and we have the ability to go silver-bullet, so we should.

Field/Forsaken is just all too often just as good as Wheel/Field. Forsaken RFG's, which basically means you can lock an opponent out just as easily with it without worrying about discarding to 7. You do need to find your way into a Stasis though.

On a sidenote, since we are making stall.dec, should we consider the use of Solitary Confinement?

Solitary Confinement + Squee
Solitary Confinement + Mikikoro (Crop Rotationable)

Anyhow, as a side note, I've grown quite fond of Sterling's at 3-4. While many decks just scoop to the first game lock, they reach for their sideboard and pull out K-grip. Many decks pack maindeck hate too. Sterling makes games 2 and 3 winnable ones, and it is vital in games against decks with maindeck hate.

I have to admit that I'm less than pleased with being SO reliant upon Forsaken City. Wasteland is just too good against us. Many people who lose to Stasis.dec just have no idea howto play against it. They race us when they have better options that that require them just to not tap out at certain points in the game. Leaving Wastelands untapped is a great example of this problem for us.

At the very least, Chronatog or Vedalken Mastermind should be heavily considered as alternatives. And, of course, if you can make Howling Mine-based Turbo Stasis good enough, then it would have a shot at overcoming the land denial problem as well.


peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook
09-15-2008, 01:52 AM
You have to find the Stasis side of the lock fairly fast. I've been fooling around with the 60 card version with a couple of friends and we've noticed that anything with a lot of counters owns the deck as soon as it figures out what it needs to counter. If you get Root Maze-Stasis down in the first 3 turns then counters are less effective.

The other thing that we've noticed is that the control-aggro decks that we are grooming at the moment, with Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Counters and Thoughtseize are nearly impossible to get the lock into play against.

Again, Stasis saves the day against Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives, because they can't get the mana to power them. So basically with Stasis in play the deck lives and without it it dies.

In that context I think taking Energy Field down to 1-of or 2-of and tutoring for it is the right answer. Wheel of Sun and Moon is tougher and I don't know how you take it down to 1 and still get both EF and WoSaM in play. That's just too many turns spent tutoring, a process that can't reasonably be done under Stasis.

I'm also considering adding Replenish as a 1-of to give the deck an out if the board gets swept clean on it. Not sure how to tutor for it though. Mystical Tutor is just more card disadvantage and no other easy method comes to mind.

Basically, the testing that I'm doing suggests that creating a defensive shell to sit in while I assemble the Stasis lock is not going to be a particularly viable solution. It will have benefits as a very short-term stopgap, but it's not clear to me that those benefits are going to equal the overall cost of putting it in play.

Here are things on the to-do list at the moment:

1. Add counterspells for the control matchup. 7 is not enough. Probably 10 to 12 needed minimum. So -2 Energy Field and -1 Gigadrowse for +2 Counterspell and +1 Spell Snare or maybe the 4th Daze. This is still a little bit counter-lite but not as critically so as 7 counters.

2. Alternately find a way to make my counters more powerful after some of the locking pieces are in place. I've considered adding a tutorable Arcane Laboratory in to drop once keeping Deed and EE off the board becomes the main concern. This would be -1 Energy Field and +1 Arcane Laboratory, since AL is a tutor target I would want to keep the second EF to promote it occurring without using a tutor more often.

3. Find a way to get 3 or 4 Sterling Groves in. Have to have a way to make Krosan Grip just not matter as much as it does already. The argument for 4 is that Sterling Grove is not a bad topdeck when it can turn into the enchantment of your choice the following turn and two SG's on the board is a lock against targetted removal. Not sure exactly how to do this other than ditching the Swords to Plowshares, which I really don't want to do.

Rough list might be:

4x Root Maze
4x Stasis
4x Forsaken City
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Energy Field
3x Sterling Grove
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Equipoise
1x Zuran Orb (fully functional under Stasis, combos viciously with Equipoise to lock out Fireblasts and other effects that sacrifice land for mana)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Flooded Strand (Gotta have green or blue mana turn 1 for Root Maze/Ponder. Gotta have white mana turn 2 and 3 for Enlightened Tutor)
3x Windswept Heath (Ditto)
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

So now at 65 cards but with somewhat better counters for the early game and a few additional options in Arcane Laboratory, Equipoise and Zuran Orb. Sterling Grove is now in to watch over the locking combos and if need be help find them in midgame. The only stabilization tools in the deck are Stasis/Forsaken City and Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon. That's a problem. Everything else is a one shot deal.

The Rack
09-15-2008, 02:01 AM
From playing Stasis in the past I have learned that Fetchlands are NOT good with Root Maze. I know that you need to find GU first turn but I think there is a better alternative... just hasn't been found yet.

BTW Great job you guys on making this deck an actual contending deck.

4eak
09-15-2008, 03:08 AM
@Yesmilord


In another sense, he also distracts your opponent from yourself, buying much needed time (note that you're using him for his howling mine ability, so he'll be at 5 from the get-go). It isn't so bad once you actually try it out though. Just be smart about in what kind of position you're dropping him in and he'll go a long way.

I know Jace is a good card when you're winning, but I don't think it is a good card when you are losing. I've played Jace extensively in MUC and a bit in Stasis. The problem with the card is that you don't want to play it unless you already have control. If MUC can barely hold control against a lot of decks, then how would Stasis manage it? Jace is a middleman that Stasis can't afford in the conversion from control to aggro.


As much as it sets you back, you're also countering key spell that will set them back - buying time is the goal here.

Missing a land drop or taking one away from Stasis is practically the same thing as losing a turn. Seriously, this deck plays a whole lot like Solidarity in this respect. I definitely recognize the need for early answers and counters through Stasis lock, but Daze just isn't doing what it does best in this deck. (Thwart might appear to do the same thing, but it is played on a fundamentally different turn than Daze altogether, and its drawback is actually its strength).


On another note, if you had to optimize a list for monoU Turbo Stasis, what would it look like? I'm curious to see what cards you'd cut and keep.

MUTurbo Stasis is really MUC with Stasis in it. This deck doesn't want card advantage, it just wants to counter and control long enough to filter and drop the lock. I'd probably play this:


Lock Pieces: 16

3x Back to Basics -- Game breaking, City dodges this, and you play basics.
3x Frozen Aether -- expensive to play, easy to filter into as a control player
4x Stasis
4x Forsaken City
2x Energy Field -- Combo's well with Forsaken.

Control: 19

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
2x Foil -- Could be anything really, I would try this first
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Propaganda -- Better than Jace
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -- Strong Singleton

Card Quality: 8

4x Brainstorm -- This is control. Play instants. Brainstorm without shuffle is still very powerful.
4x Impulse

Mana Base: 23

23x Islands

Again, this is a stripped down MUC that drops a lock to win the game. It plays above 60 cards to prevent it from having fewer cards in the library. This deck slows the game down, generates card advantage through a tempo based approach (meaning your draw phase counts as CA in this case), and drops the lock with counter backup.

It doesn't have Howling Mine. Nothing I can do about it; that card just doesn't work. It doesn't belong in a control shell.



@FoolofaTook

Also, for the Root Maze + Howling Mine issue:

Howling Mine is in this deck to perpetuate the softlock of a standalone stasis. Without Forsaken City, Root Maze completely cripples Howling Mine's most important function: Drawing 2 cards, dropping 1 land, passing the turn until you don't draw a land and have only 1 mana to Cov Stasis end step and completely untap to do it again. You can't do this when Root Maze is in play.


Wheel of Sun and Moon is tougher and I don't know how you take it down to 1 and still get both EF and WoSaM in play. That's just too many turns spent tutoring, a process that can't reasonably be done under Stasis.

If I have to take either Field or Wheel to 1, I'd take Wheel. If you need a defensive Wheel, then tutor for it (which is uncommon for me). When you need it to target you, then bounce it and replay.

Energy Field + Forsaken is a combo I've never seen, but it works. If you have extra cards in hand when you start the combo, then you have that many cards to work with after you drop the lock (which may just mean you wait for a few turns before tutoring and playing Wheel). Energy Field is the card I'd rather top deck than Wheel.

2-3 Energy Field / 1-2 Wheel is the correct split I think.


1x Zuran Orb

I've done this before with Equipoise, and I honestly don't know whether I like it or not. The deck was so tight that I dropped it. Sometimes it was win-more for me, other times it did the impossible.


Arcane Laboratory

Yet another card I was forced to take out my list. I like it, especially in a deck with tutors.


3x Flooded Strand (Gotta have green or blue mana turn 1 for Root Maze/Ponder. Gotta have white mana turn 2 and 3 for Enlightened Tutor)
3x Windswept Heath (Ditto)

Lose the fetches or lose Root Maze.


Add counterspells for the control matchup.

Aggro-Control decks are a problem, but I'm not sure a defensive route will win it. Orim's chant might be stronger.

MUC smashes this deck. No questions about it. There is nothing you can do to win this match against a well-played and well-built MUC deck. I promise. I've got 100's of games logged in our access table to prove it.

Other control decks, especially those reliant upon Deed and Discard, must be raced. You can win it, but your deck has to be built with racing in mind (massive tutorage).

Extra counterspells have been the wrong choice in my testing.


Find a way to get 3 or 4 Sterling Groves in.

I took your suggestion. My lastest list does exactly this.


Basically, the testing that I'm doing suggests that creating a defensive shell to sit in while I assemble the Stasis lock is not going to be a particularly viable solution.

You've got it! You understand. This is exactly correct.

Once people know how to play against this deck, Stasis players are forced into combo mode more than control mode more times than not. For the deck to be successful, we must race with perhaps light disruption in between.


peace,
4eak

FoolofaTook
09-15-2008, 10:06 AM
In looking at the list again I really see both Equipoise and Zuran Orb as the weakest cards in the list. Equipoise only functions after Stasis is down, and there are several other cards I'd rather have on the table in combination with Stasis, and Zuran Orb really only functions well after Stasis lands also.

I see scenarios where both cards are powerful, however those scenarios are in a very small percentage of the overall likely play situations.

Does that mean this goes to 63 cards or is the right answer at that point to remove them for the 4th Daze and the 3rd Counterspell or even 2 Spell Snare? Secondarily, how many counters have you been using in the MUC matchups that felt weak to you? 7+, 9+, 12+? 7 is clearly not testing well for the purposes of landing anything other than a turn 1 Root Maze against counters and discard.

On the question of the fetches: Is it worth having to give up a turn 1 Root Maze because all that was drawn was Tundra, Hallowed Fountain or Islands? I see turn 1 Root Maze as the first sign of a successful game for this deck. It becomes much harder to force it into play once the opponent has an Island down or has used targetted discard to remove it. I'm torn on that one and I guess I'll just have to play both variants until I get a feel for which is less hinky on turn 1, 2 and 3.

I'm trying to get to the Zvi mantra of only including the things that are important and not being distracted by alternatives that are weaker than the main thrust of the deck.

DuKeLiO
10-06-2008, 12:17 PM
I also have played Stasis recently. I try with a 4C deck not very ortodox, but I feel it is good close to optimal:

4 Force of Will
4 Remand (it is one of the most controversial cards and maybe Counterspell be a better counterspell)
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Stasis
4 Jace Beleren
1 Gigadrowse (really it is a free slot I use Gigadrowse against control)
3 Equipoise
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Squandered Resources
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Forsaken City
6 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Planar Void
1 Tormod Crypt
3 Gigadrowse (too many against control I will reduce this number)

I use Jace Beleren like finisher, not like a engine to pay the Stasis. Sure, it helps, and so I prefer to play it against Owl or some other card that does nothing more than kill.
Squandered Resources is very good with Stasis to pay the upkeep until have a City or Jace. Against decks playing Wasteland this use to be enough to pay the upkeep along with Jace to win the game.
I know CB/Sensei is very mana intensive, but I rarely use Sensei after I play Stasis.

NecroYawgmoth
07-02-2009, 09:07 AM
Hi guys...

I'm sorry to necro this thread, but I want to discuss a bit about Stasis.

I don't think that U/G or U/G/W is the way to go...

I know that Root Maze is a good card, but I don't think it is that good in a Stasis-deck. You are too reliant on Forsaken City with Root Maze in play...
...you can't pay for Stasis by just droppimg Islands, or Bounce it with Chain of Vapor, etc...

sure, you also have Quirion Ranger, but that is just an 1/1 which dies to every removal.

Mono U is too weak, too imo... You have counters, an a very good hardlock-concept imo (Frozen AEther), but I think the tutor is too cluncky, and only at sorcery speed (Muddle the Mixture)

I thik U/W is the way to go

You can exchange the clunky MtM for a good tutor (enlightened), you can strength the Energy Field combo with Wheel of Sun and Moon (like the U/G or U/G/W lists do), you have the best removal spell in the format, and you can still tutor for a hardlock that doesn't affect you (Frozen AEther instaed of Root Maze)


4 Stasis
3 Frozen Aether
3 Energy Field
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Equipoise
3 Jace Beleren

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Forsaken City
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Treva's Ruins
10 Snow-Covered Island
////
64

...thats 64 cards, I think you could cut an Jace for an Chronatog, or play 65 cards by adding an random Arcane Lab as a tutor target, or something else...


I think U/W Stasis is superioir to U/G/W and the other versions.

...what do you guys think? any suggestions?


YawG

johanessen
10-04-2009, 08:37 PM
Okay, so here is the list i'm using atm. I've been tweaing it all over the weekend:

Lands
4Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Jace Beleren
3 Stasis
2 Squandered Resources
1 Standstill
1 Propaganda
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Equipoise
2 Sterling Groove


Sideboard
SB: 2 Propaganda
SB: 4 Hydroblast
SB: 2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt


Card Explanations:
Lands.
Misty rainforest could be any blue fetch, but if you decide to add a basic forest that would be the fetch you should go, although basic forest is not needed.
Forsaken City enables combo.

Creatures.
Birds heps you to get colored mana. Initially it was Noble Hierarch but i've decided to play Birds. We need to combo, not to kill by damage.
Quirion Ranger works good under stasis. Untap birds bounce tapped tropical island.

Spells.
Fow and Brainstorm are self explanatory. Free counter is allways good but more in a stasis shell.
Daze. Same than force of will but also can bounce tapped islands. There is not much a drawback in early game since we have those mana-accel birds.
Muddle the Mixture will counter mostly what we want, since we don't care too much on creatures. Also, searches Stasis, Squandered resources, sterling groove and even a standstill.
Enlightened tutor helps to get the combo. It also gets a faster propaganda/tormod/s crypt/pithing needle in other mu's.
Stasis. The combo.
Jace Beleren feeds Frosaken Citys and it's card advantadge. And it's the wincon. Be careful because propagandas doesn't protect him.
Squandered Resources. Another way to pay mana for stasis. It's nice when you have Equipoise online also.
Sterling groove protects the combo, and searches for it also. You will need it in games two and three.
Propaganda will help you against swarm, only one copy because it can be searched.
Standstill is a winmore here, but since it's blue and searchable it's okay for me. Initially that slot was a Serra Sphinx since I got Jace extirpated once, but i don't care too much.
Equipoise it's good against some random decks that play annoying permanents, they will never come back with stasis online.

Sideboard
Pithing needles are here for wasteland mainly, but is a great card against loads of stuff.
Propagandas and tabernacles against swarm.
Hydroblast against dragon stompy, aggroloams and goblins.
Tormod's against ichorid.

Well, sideobard still needs some test, but that's what i have now.

Discuss


Update: -1 Standstill -1 Propaganda +2 Garruk. That guy is a beast.

Poron
10-05-2009, 08:16 AM
In my opinion you should rely more on "turbo" stasis

Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger + Bop/Noble Hierarch

that's a total of 16 small creatures that can keep the board locked with Stasis

and in multiples, you can use the second Quirion to untap your Tarmogoyf and just win... or you can play SoFI and Jitte to win with just your 1/1s

I would stay on something like this:

4 Exploration

4 BoP
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Scryb Ranger

2 SoFI
2 Jitte

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Stasis
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

and 16 lands

edit: and if you find the slot this deck is PERFECT for Tradewind Rider

Indykid Vago
10-09-2009, 11:54 PM
I've been toying with a white splash... here's what I've been testing with. I personally love 4 Chain of Vapor MD, as i can both bounce Stasis and a pesky permanent for the loss of one island. Tangle Wire has been awesome...


// Lands
4 [M10] Glacial Fortress
4 [B] Island (2)
4 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
4 [B] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [IA] Adarkar Wastes

// Creatures
2 [VI] Chronatog
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [B] Howling Mine
1 [MM] Thwart
2 [AL] Arcane Denial (1)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [AL] Arcane Denial (2)
1 [PLC] Frozen AEther
4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [RAV] Muddle the Mixture
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Stasis
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [AQ] Ivory Tower
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

I think my board is a little anti-red heavy... so I am open to any suggestions.

Vacrix
10-12-2009, 03:13 PM
@ poron. exploration and 16 land? that doesnt seem like its going to work. it looks like the concept could work if you get the right build. i think 19/20 land seems right, without exploration. maybe lotus petal in place of exploration. you are not always going to have goyf. i would run another win con. bitterblossum sounds legit if you want to splash black. black also gives you cabal therapy (cool with small guys to sac, like BoP) which is some nice protection against combo which is far less affected by stasis than aggro is.



however, think the U/w lists are looking good. ideally, you want to win faster than chronotog if you want good indicators in a tournament. solutions? i think that luminarch ascension is clearly a good choice. you are basically putting the board in a 'stasis' for about 4 turns anyway before the lock breaks. thats plenty of time to get ascension online and once its online, i'd like to see how aggro deals with 4/4 flyings for 1W, when you are probably making 2 or 3 per turn.

its fetchable under enlightened tutor. ive been testing it in another deck. once it comes online against aggro, if they cant remove it, aggro pretty much rolls over and dies.

entity
10-18-2009, 01:16 PM
So...since Solidarity was not annoying people enough, I decided to switch to Stasis :)

Finished 3rd in 15 person tournament today with monoU version:

MD (61 cards)

16 Island
4 Forsaken City
1 Academy Ruins

4 Stasis
3 Frozen Aether

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Fathom Seer
3 Jace Beleren
3 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Remand
3 Chain of Vapor

SB (15 cards)

4 Trinisphere
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Echoing Truth
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Energy Flux
1 Hurkyls Recall

Explanations:

I dislike being vulnerable to LD when its not necessary...and Stasis can be played monoU (IMHO).
Manabase: Islands and Forsaken are obvious, Academy Ruins is for reusing SB artifacts. Well...I planned a different SB, with Shackles vs aggro, but they did not arrived in time, so...anyway - not being able to produce blue mana was not a problem.
Lock pieces dont need explanations. Only 3 Aethers because they are bad in multiples.
Draw. Stasis tends to play long games, so Visions are awesome. Jace is great too, maybe I shoul play 4, as it also my main win-con. Brainstorm seemed underperforming all day, so maybe Impulse instead, as I have no tutoring here? Fathom Seer - one of the greatest cards here. Basically he functions as Meditate, but without skipping a turn. Also he can win some time and is decent enough win condition if needed.
Counters. Daze sometimes sucks because of slowing me down, but is very good in later turns. Snare hits a lot of dangerous things and costs only U, so it is in too. Remand is great tempo card, as a lot of times my opponent will not be able to replay remanded spell - and I draw yet another card.
Only 3 Chains because there is not enough place for everything. Could not say that I felt the need to play more.

SB is pretty random, as I expected to get some others cards for it and had to just put together something from what I own. Spheres are good vs combo, where it hurts them more than me, Flux is vs Affinity, which is an often guest here, Truth vs Belcher or anything where Chain would not be a good choice, and Recall just to get rid of random artifacts and hate affinity some more.

Round 1 - Paulius, Solidarity
He is playing my deck without Fows and only 4 Disrupts as counters, but that just speeds up the deck, as metagame here is usually aggro. He also is a pretty new player and first time playing Legacy (aside some testing a week before), so I manage to beat him with morphed Seers, protecting them with counter backup. Second game he is able to mill me for 15 cards in response to Trinisphere, but is unable to find Cunning Wish into bounce in time, so Seer beatdown is going all the way again.
2-0, 3 points

Round 2 - Vytenis, Dragon Stompy
G1 he lays Trini turn 1, Pit Dragon t2 and it seems bad, but I manage to keep up with Jace (no hellbent for him), stabilize on 2 life, put down Stasis and later Chain of Vapor his Sphere to be able to counter his spells. I had to FoW something bad, but managed to mill him with Jace in time before he finds something else dangerous plus enough mana to cast it. Had to pay for Stasis with basics all the time as there were 2 Blood Moons in play. Fathom Seers are great here :) .
G2 he had Chalice at 1 turn 1, and my hand with Chain and 2 Blasts looked bad for some time - but I had drawn Recall and was waiting for a good time to play it, as he was beating me with SSG. Stop SSG with unmorphed Seer, Recall his Chalice and Mox, Blast Magus of the Moon, counter anything relevant enough and Stasis-lock ftw.
2-0, 6 points

Round 3 - Henrik, TES
G1 I lock him out of the game and counter the few dangerous spells he tried to play.
G2 Aether, Trinisphere in play and Seer beatdown with counter backup ftw. Finished game with 3 Stasis in hand, as playing them was not necessary and would have slowed down the game and maybe even given him some chances to win.
2-0, 9 points

Round 4 - Marius, Enchantress
Yeah, LOL. Great choice in our aggro-ish metagame, but not vs Stasis.
2-0, 12 points

Round 5 - Tadas, Burn
ID, 13 points and first place

Top 4 - again Tadas with Burn
Worst matchup in top4 (others were my round 2 and 3 opponents).
G1 I mulligan to 5, but still lock him with Stasis - but without Aether, and with chronic lack of cards in hand I cannot counter all his one mana burn spells.
G2 I keep a decent hand with counters, Jace, but only 2 lands. I sat for some time on these 2 lands even after resolving Visions, and was too low on life later to be able to safely tap out to lock him - I tried, and just could not counter all the burn spells aimed at my head. My last FoW got blasted, and resolved (second already in this game, if I remember correctly) Fireblast killed me.

Oh well, 3rd place is still good.
Props:
Fathom Seer for being awesome and killing combo players.
Stasis for annoying everyone. Except me.
DCI reporter, for not pairing me with aggro all the rounds.
Slops:
Brainstorm. It was useful for finding a land a pair of times, but this slot could be used for something better.
My planned Sb cards, for not arriving in time.
Sitting full-time all the rounds. My back hurts :/

sillysam71
10-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Since Dream Halls is unbanned now, does anyone think it might work in this deck?

entity
10-18-2009, 02:01 PM
Since Dream Halls is unbanned now, does anyone think it might work in this deck?

It costs 5 mana and, more importantly, works for both players. Why lock up their lands if you are planning to let them play everything for free?

deadlock
10-18-2009, 02:07 PM
@entity: As you are already quite heavy on two drops, have you considered Ponder in place of Brainstorm? I dont know if the instant speed actually matters though.
Another (bad?) option is Muddle the Mixture to find Statis faster.

entity
10-18-2009, 02:20 PM
Yeah, Ponder could be a good choice. Not being instant speed hurts for sure, but I guess I should simply playtest and see how it goes.

Mordel
10-19-2009, 05:33 AM
I am pretty sure that the absence of gush will pretty much keep stasis lock decks from being the beast that it was in old extended. Gush was the glue that kept things together. Fathom Seer is nice, but in the end it's sorcery speed and costs three mana. That's fail.

Has anyone just thought about updating the old builds and trying to figure out a way to make it run solidly without gush? The kismet locks seems janky as hell. Just adding more thwarts, dazes or something else that I can't think of in the place of gush and just testing might get good results.

I always thought that the strength of mono blue stasis decks was that it was basically a draw-go deck that had about a dozen cards that bounced your lands as an alternate cost with relatively strong functions for a permission deck's needs, but also had four stasis as a way to capitalize on your opponent overextending or force a fast deck into the late game...sort of like a blue version of free spell necro depending on how you look at it.

I have played a lot of different stasis builds and I always liked the mono-blue draw-go approach the most because it relied on stasis for a win far less than other incarnations. Powder Keg,propaganda and a fast morphling that was protected by free counters often did the trick if Stasis couldn't get on the table.

Times have changed, but trying to abuse stasis as heavily as possible and running ideally no cards that require it being on the table(read kismet, chronotog etc) seems like a good thing to try first because of how simple it is. I always found that making something start out with too many moving parts made optimizing slower than the reverse of keeping things simple and expanding them to fill holes.

Kagehisa
10-20-2009, 12:57 PM
This is an old Stasis version played by Tony Dobson

4 Stasis
4 Powder Keg

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Thwart
2 Daze

2 Boomrang
2 Claw of Gix

4 Impulse
4 Gush

1 Spellbook

2 Morphling

23 Island

Sideboard

3 Annul
3 Back to Basics
3 Disrupt
4 Masticore
2 Turnabout

Gush is banned as you all know... I would replace it by Ancestral Vision that cost just one mana and can be a victime of "Stifle" unfortunately...

Boomrang and Claw of Gix can be replaced by 3 Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth

Anyways... there are others free cards I would like to list...

Commandeer
Disrupting Shoal
Ensnare
Foil
Misdirection
Reality Strobe
Snapback
Tidal Bore

Suspended cards could be tested but I'm too lazy to do it myself.

Hm... Iron Maiden or Stroke of Genius were decent kills
With Zendikar, i had hope in finding a landfall card that could fit in a Stasis build... in the end, I found Living Tsunami to combo with Stasis... the problem is that Living Tsunami is good under Stasis as a blocker only and if no Stasis in game, it will bother the land drop... and maybe Frozen Aether ( the blue Kismet ) is just better for the same mana cost...

And maybe we should discuss about the strongest build... Mono-Blue-Stasis or the build with Splash... or even with Tezzeret or etc.

Guys... feel free to say that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gush ! I miss you !

Kagehisa
11-05-2009, 05:01 AM
Hm...

Many ways to bounce or "break" Stasis or untap all your lands :

2 manas
*Reset only untaps lands not your artifacts or creature(s) like despotic scepter or others

*Boomrang you have to recast the Stasis... It eats you 2 manas unlike Reset but can be used for defense

*Echoing Truth same for boomrang but better in defense, cannot bounce lands ( with permanent or trigger abilities )

1 mana (all cheaper...)

*Chain of Vapor basically a cheaper boomrang but worse for defense if you have lock piece in board, you have to recast the Stasis... it eats you 2 manas, 2 upkeeps...

*Rescue cannot defend, same problem, you have to recast Stasis...

*Tel-Jilad Stylus better than despotic scepter and can be used to deck the opponent as if you had 60+X cards in your deck, X= the number you activate it... can only be used if you have another Stasis in hand if you want to recast another Stasis... -"good" against extirpate-, is a permanent (can be cast before the Stasis makes you skip your untap phase = you gain one mana...)

*Despotic Scepter is bad against extirpate... is a permanent,

*Claws of Gix (free but 1 mana to activate) is free, is a gainlife, doesn't tap to be activated, (can be activated twice or more in a turn) is a permanent

All of these cards are ok but the better one is... I dunno...

and maybe Perilous Research x2 (2 manas) ? the better one ? this is the only one that doesn't make card disadvantage. Yes, it would work like a cantrip. No card advantage. It is only playable when you have another Stasis in hand... if you want to cast another Stasis just right after your precisous untap phase.


Card Name: Perilous Research
Mana Cost: 1 colorless + 1 blue
Converted Mana Cost: 2
Types: Instant
Card Text: Draw two cards, then sacrifice a permanent.

Of course, sacrifice Stasis...

Stasis looks so weak without Gush... Maybe i'll make a counterzombie deck...

Vacrix
11-29-2009, 06:29 PM
Since Luminarch Ascension came out, I've been toying with different Stasis builds. This one has been dong really well in my testing:

Stasis
Land: (17)
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

Creatures: (20)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Court Hussar

Spells: (23)
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb

SB:
2 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Winter Orb
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

I'm still working on the board. Ideally I am aiming to beat aggro and control, and try to prepare for combo with the board.

Win conditions:

Court Hussar:
Court Hussar's vigilance enables me to attack without having to untap him every turn. Hierarch's and Pridemages often add to his offense making him a 2/4 or 3/5. Usually if you can drop Stasis after your opponent has everything tapped he is a perfect contender for a win con slot, and he digs 3 cards deep.

Rangers:
Quirion Ranger and Scryb Rangers can go all the way sometimes. Its rare that they do it on their own, but once stasis comes down, I have quite a bit of time to find Umezawa's Jitte via Top's and Ponders which can find me Enlightened Tutor which finds me Jitte. The only time that Rangers go all the way is with Jitte or if I have a creature in play with exalted. Rangers also allow me to untap Pridemage which swings for 3 per turn (or more if I have Hierarchs and such).

Luminarch Ascension:
Once its active, you should not lose unless you have no mana. Seriously 2 or 3 angels per turn beats any aggro deck and without Pithing Needle or removal for Ascension, your opponent should die quickly. Stasis is the perfect card to get it active. You can fetch it with Enlightened Tutor and its good on its own against a deck that isnt dealing you damage so its really good if you can resolve it against an opponent who doesn't have a clock.

Locks:
Stasis with either Forsaken City, a Ranger + a Trop, or Ranger + forest + BoP/Hierarch.
Then win with something. I haven't had trouble winning too often after resolving stasis unless I run into fire//ice on my creature synergy or wasteland on forbidden city. Often I run into multiples of everything so unless he has 2 answers or I draw poorly, the lock usually stays. The lock can come down as early as turn 2. Turn 1, Trop, Birds, Turn 2, Quirion Ranger, return trop, play trop, stasis. I have mulled to as low as 5 cards and pulled this off.

CB + SDT:
I fit this in randomly so I would have some sort of game plan against storm. Sometimes it falls into my lap and I go for it over Stasis. It wins games, but I think a 2/2 split is more than enough for the MD.




Equipoise it's good against some random decks that play annoying permanents, they will never come back with stasis online.

I'm guessing they don't come back because stuff only phases back in during the untap step? I've wanted to run it, but I wasn't completely sure of its uses and how it interacts with the rest of the deck. I run very few land (17 is low but the creatures support it really well, and rangers protect your forests/trops/savannah from sinkehole/wasteland) so if Equipoise is down I can imagine getting it into play would seal the game. I'll probably start testing a singleton dropping 1 Ascension for it.

Also, I'm considering dropping the 2 Spell Snare in favor of either regrowth or chain of vapor.

Thoughts?

GoldenCid
01-22-2011, 10:36 PM
Is the UG version a must??? Considering that i'm new to the deck

Here's my list:

4 Stasis
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Frozen Aether
2 Orb of Dreams
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thwart
2 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forsaken City
1 Forest
7 Island
3 Tidal Bore
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Howling Mine
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Chill

Thx!!

Lancer
09-21-2011, 11:47 AM
Sorry I didnt read all the pages but I was wondering if anybody figure how to use counterbalance in a stasis build... thanks.

Michael Keller
09-21-2011, 01:05 PM
Counterbalance is relatively terrible in a Stasis deck. In order to maximize Counterbalance's effectiveness, you're (obviously) going to want to use Sensei's Divining Top. That is an extremely mana-intensive scenario and one you wouldn't want to find yourself in when needing as much mana as possible.

Lancer
09-21-2011, 03:18 PM
is Sensei's Divining Top that necessary?

Dalapin
10-31-2011, 12:17 AM
After MM we have got to get this thread going again!

Poron
11-01-2011, 06:45 AM
yup stasis is officially back from the dead (imho)

planeswalkers (Tezzeret, Garruk, Jace, Liliana) + tangle wire / orb of dreams.

it's competitive.

I'd work on a UWg/b list

core:
4x Stasis
4x Enlightned tutor
2x Equipoise
2x Orb of dreams
3/4x Tangle Wire

3-4 StP

3x Tezzeret the seeker
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Jace, TMS
2x Jace Beleren

something like that..

it needs both speed and CA now..

Kich867
11-04-2011, 02:10 AM
Well, here's my list for this. I'm not sure how I feel about splashing, it's already pretty effective in mono blue. This would be my list for it however:

//Planeswalkers: 6
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Jace Beleren

//Enchantments: 9
3x Frozen Aether
4x Stasis
2x Trade Routes

//Artifacts: 3
3x Thran Turbine

//Spells: 20
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Chain of Vapor
2x Thwart
2x Tidal Bore

//Lands:
4x Forsaken City
3x Oboro, Palace in the clouds
14x Island

A few things need to be true inherently in order for the lock to stick.

Thran Turbine + Trade Routes / Oboro
Forsaken City + Either Jace

Six win conditions, relatively straight forward. You control into a stasis, if you can land an early pseudo-lock while you dig with Jace for a Frozen Aether. I thought it was fun, I hadn't seen the Thran lock posted--it's drawback is it doesn't let you drop more lands, but it's very sustainable and if white was splashed it'd be entirely fetchable. In particular, I enjoy the Thran > Oboro lock the most, hope this gives someone ideas.

GoldenCid
11-04-2011, 06:43 AM
I like the idea of turbine + oboro it allows you to keep stasis at infinitum, however i'd like to use the turbine ability for other things beside the land.

Poron
11-04-2011, 08:57 AM
how do you play things under a stasis?.. to win that way you need to have already in play a Jace and Frozen Aether in order to win...

how else?

GoldenCid
11-04-2011, 09:44 AM
Well, with turbine and oboro you get rid of tapping lands to keep stasis. Beside you have lots of "return islands to your hand" effects. At this point I consider 1-2 ensnare healthy.

Kich867
11-04-2011, 10:37 AM
how do you play things under a stasis?.. to win that way you need to have already in play a Jace and Frozen Aether in order to win...

how else?

The jist would be to use stasis to chill for awhile while finding a more full lock. Obviously, the best lock is Jace + Forsaken city since you dedicate one land to sustaining stasis while dropping more. Thran > Oboro is for 2 things: mini lock while sculpting your hand / solidifying the win. Extra oboro's can be discarded to trade routes or Forsaken City, I've only playtested the list once and I forgot frozen aethers so it kind of dragged on forever, but it's uniquely fun.

The problem with splashing is I wouldn't know what to drop from the deck and keep it 60 cards. Odds are, the "return land to hand!" cards would bounce. They're fun in the deck and whatnot, but I don't think they're necessary. Tidal Bore I might keep since without a doubt I'd drop Serra Avenger in the deck (so ensnare would be no bueno) The other problem I have with splashing is the need to put fetches / duals in. Not a fan of opening up to that kind of hate, the MUC version is functional and it can stabilize very nicely. I might drop brainstorm for impulse though.

orcanmail
11-04-2011, 04:34 PM
A long long time ago back in the dawn of magic I used to play a U/W stasis deck, i remember using Reset to keep my stasis / kismet lock going, protected by FOW with 4 black vises and copy artifact as a win condition. Those were the days!
I'm inspired to sleeve something up again to the despair no doubt of my fellow players.

Vacrix
11-07-2011, 01:12 AM
Mystic Remora looks pretty good if you are going to run Thran Turbine.

Poron
11-11-2011, 05:13 AM
In my opinion, not splashing cannot be an option.

you have Root Maze for G (that is almost a Kismet here)
you have Enlightned Tutor for W (you just double your Stasis count in the deck)
you have Crop Rotation for G (Forsaken City, Oboro, Tabernacle. How can you not love Rotation in Stasis...)
if that wasn't enough you have Sterling Grove for GW (you've just added further Stasis and Protecting other pieces too)

the splashes here just improve the deck.

The lock is Stasis + Root Maze. Tha's all you need

Way to mantein it:
1st: Forsaken City + Howling Mine / Jace (any jace is actually fine... maybe "the Beleren" is preferable due to its CC)
2nd: Garruk Wildspeaker

and the weakest of all ---> 3rd: Oboro + Eladamri's Vineyard / Thran's Turbine, because it doesn't allow you to play your 2nd lock piece: Root Maze

consider this list:

4 Stasis
4 Root Maze

4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightned Tutor
3 Sterling Grove
4 Ponder

3 Jace, TMS
1 Rites of Flourishing
1 Equipoise

3 Chain of Vapor

4 Daze
4 FoWs

1 The Tabernacle at P.Vale
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Savannah
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Breeding Pool
3 Forsaken City

GoldenCid
11-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I`m not sure about the splash, it's obvious that is green or white but not both. It makes the manabase very vulnerable. I dont like it. I'm thinking very serously in a monoU version or maybe a Ug (root maze and some untap effects).

bokwinkle
02-06-2012, 06:12 PM
One more Necro...

Why is noone trying to run green and just dumping half of the 'dorks' (BoP's, Hierarchs, Sryb rangers, Quirion rangers) to run Green Sun's Zenith?

Instead of:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Scryb Ranger
2 Quirion ranger

Run this:

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dryad Arbor

You'll be more consistent with getting the creatures you need at the right times AND you'll gain deckspace for Win-Cons (preferably of the Green creature variety) or silver bullets (also of the Green creature variety). All while maintaining you're ability to quickly ramp into whatever you're trying to do. AND you'll gain late-game consistency as well - meaning you won't need stasis to win. GSZ will let you apply early pressure - forcing your opponent to play control - while you set up stasis. And if they ignore your board then you can drop a turn 3 Garruk + Stasis.

And after board you can run 3 GSZ, 4 goyf, and a few Scavenging Ooze and just aggro someone out with Hierarch powered beats.

GSZ is the card that makes this deck competitive again - it really makes "aggro stasis" worth playing.

If you want to get tricky in a U/G shell you can run Coiling Oracle with 6+ cantrips (ponders + Brainstorm) and even some explorations and Root maze in a high land build. With all of the little dudes you can just run Garruk as your secondary win-con and secondary stasis set-up. Overrun after untapping with rangers...win.

Vacrix
02-14-2012, 02:55 AM
When I fooled around with Stasis, this is exactly the route I took. Ranger(s) + Hierarch/BoP was fantastic, and Garruk was basically a win-condition and a combo piece. Then, Enlightened Tutor could find you Stasis, Luminarch Ascension, or CB/SDT.. and a few other goodies. It wasn't the most competitive deck ever but I won the majority of my games on Workstation.


Stasis
Land: (17)
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

Creatures: (20)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Court Hussar

Spells: (23)
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb

SB:
2 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Winter Orb
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

I would cut Court Hussar for GSZ.

teitan29a
02-23-2012, 12:16 PM
stasis + frozen aether + chronotog. skip your next turn during their turn. they can't play anything because everything comes in tapped and you don't have to pay the upkeep on stasis because you are never taking a turn. you can play a card like psychic possession so that you can get card draw during their turn, but you don't have to. if you have force of wills, dazes and foils for counters you don't ever need to take a turn. I usually play frozen aether and wait til they are tapped out then play stasis and chronotog. they will usually just say pass turn or attack. i will take the damage and say at the end of your turn I am activating chronotog's ability and skipping my next turn. then they go again and again and usually they scoop by the second or third turn.

Oiolosse
02-23-2012, 07:42 PM
@teitan29a
A three card combo where each are bad or expensive on their own. How else do you plan to abuse stasis? If you have counter backup to protect the combo then how have you been controlling the game before you drop a 4 cmc enchantment?

I have found stasis to be terribly slow and bad in a monoblue legacy. We don't have gush or mana drain, both which drastically improve the deck.

I think the best way to abuse Stasis is to surround it with other prison cards. I have super experience with this style of deck as it has been my pet deck for a decade.

Since GSZ came out I have begun testing different versions: Here is my latest.


little dudes
4 bop
4 noble hierarch
3 scryb ranger
2 Quirion ranger
1 Cold Eyed Selkie
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Trygon Predator

quality/tutor
3 GSZ
3 Meditate

Lock
4 tangle wire
3 winter orb
3 stasis
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 opposition*
2 LOCK**


* when I'm testing I may play opposition as Jace, the mind sculptor. Ultimately Jace is better but with how many little dudes I have and Garruk making tokens at time I can effectively tap out the opponent for the rest of time. Also, tapping winter orb EOT to have my lands untap is just so much fun. Jace does bounce creatures that made it past my lock, fateseal is very relevant here as keeping them off mana or cards I can't deal with are important to me, I have no removal. And running out of gas happens too often, mediate is fantastic but I don't want more than 3 MD.

**I have a short list that I use. Revoker, Sphere of Resistance, and Trinisphere. I have been keeping note of what is most effective and the frequency I choose it. Revoker has typically been the most used. It is the only of the three that can deal with the permanents that crept past the lock.

Land:
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tropical Island
4 misty rainforest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 island
4 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

Been trying to fit in Thrun and/or Master of the Wild hunt. I'm thinking 1 bop and 1 Scryb Ranger. Thoughts?

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-12-2012, 12:52 AM
I did some extensive testings with various card choices about 2 years ago focused on a control route. Since then no new card was printed that really helped the deck so here is what I found:

- Zoo is not DtB anymore, but there are still plenty of fast aggro decks around so you absolutely have to be able to drop stasis turn 3, sometimes turn 2 on the draw or you need some serious protection/stalling until then.

- Because of the need of tempo, garruk with 4cc just doesn't do the trick (even though I think he is one of the better choices when going for a hardlock). Even if you play the playset and accelleration, there will be many games where you do not draw him before you have to lay down stasis. Once you did, getting to 4cc is too hard.

- Root maze sucks in stasis. I mean seriously. We have to splash white and green so we need fetchlands. Root maze is absolutely terrible against aggro when on the draw and disables quirion ranger, daze, thward, treva's ruins and ensnare.

- I found that needing a 2 card combo to sustain the stasis is just utopistic. This will only work if your opponent does nothing you need to react to. I found no way of enshuring a reliable hardlock, I did go for a softlock.

- I could not nearly sustain a counterbalance under stasis lock, it did not work at all, it's way too mana intensive.


So here is what I ironed out to be the shell of my testings:

4 stasis
4 daze
2-3 thward
4 FoW
4 Enlightened tutor
4 forsaken city
4 quirion ranger
4 stifle (absolutely needed against quasali and wasteland, sometimes tempo boost)

that leaves about 10 open slots for accelleration (has good synergies with quirion ranger), disruption and win conditions.

Why quirion ranger>scryb ranger?
It's the CC. If you dropped stasis early sustained either by having at least 3 cards like daze/trevar's ruins/ensnare/thward you might not be able to free more then one mana until you draw into forsaken city.
If you dropped stasis early sustained by forsaken city, one more CC means one more card in your hand to remove to free up the mana.


In my testings Stasis was not competitive and that was before batterskull hit the meta. Now you need a plan to beat 5/5 vigilance. Stasis seriously needs gush but that card will probably never be unbanned.


@Oiolosse
How are you going to beat aggro? I mean the only way to defend yourself is turn 3 tangle wire. If you are on the draw against goblins or zoo you're dead by then.

Why meditate? It seems like a terrible choice for me. 3 CMC is too much under stasis and the card sucks without it. Maybe tangle wire does the trick, I did not test that card so I cannot say how well it does in stasis.

If you go for a more aggro shell, why no stoneforge mystic for batterskull? Seems like very strong defense against aggro decks and does well under stasis.

Kich867
03-12-2012, 07:40 PM
So I finally got my hands on a playset of force of wills. I've come to realize that without doubt, my favorite deck archetype are prison type decks. Turbofog and Stasis I have enormous fun playing.

Stasis is something I want to get to work so badly.. It's just that winning with it seems so problematic as it's mutual.

I'm leaning more towards running Mono Blue, scryb ranger + BoP or something would be pretty nice but it's just to perpetuate the lock, it still doesn't win.

So what I've been trying to think of is something that is inexpensive to play that will eventually kill the opponent without any interaction from me or without having me pay mana for it.

Planeswalkers are the most ideal here, but there has to be something more. Some ideas I had were things like Ebony Owl Netsuke or similarly functioning cards. Copper Tablet was another one I believe, just cheap to cast things that will eventually win over time. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is 100% the best win condition, but there's got to be some diversity there.

On the flip-side, which seems to me to be one of the better options, is to just play Stasis like Turbofog. A lot of draw engines, counterspells, bounce-land-to-play-for-free shit, stifles, Jace Beleren, howling mine, Orb of Dreams.

This is something that I feel probably suits the deck a bit better. Main-deck stifles can be used not only to play a tempo game on them, but also to hit (as was mentioned previously) their wastelands, but most importantly in that style would be hitting the random Emrakul triggers to shuffle their graveyard into their deck.

I'll experiment with this throughout the week and report back. Part of me thinks this may be a better way to play Turbofog, as Fog often has issues with counters--having main deck protection will help out a lot.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-12-2012, 11:03 PM
On the flip-side, which seems to me to be one of the better options, is to just play Stasis like Turbofog. A lot of draw engines, counterspells, bounce-land-to-play-for-free shit, stifles, Jace Beleren, howling mine, Orb of Dreams.
You don't need to test ebony owl and orb of dreams. Both have been tested extensively in the past and were found not to work. If you get the lock down, serra avanger is plain superior to ebony owl, the owl won't trigger unless you establish a hardlock. Hardlock stasis just does not work, any cards enabling it are just way to slow against any decent legacy deck.

Orb of dreams sucks for the same reasons root maze does, even more so because it's just slower.

Copper tablet will kill you! Against any creature or burn based deck you will start into stasis with less life.

I do not think Jace is the best win condition, it costs 4 mana, way to much to be played under stasis lock.

To give you a list, here is the last list I toyed with:


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
3 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void


Layline is probably a bad SB choice, but the only one permanently solving ichorid (otherwise ichorid just beats us badly)
Dunno if Needle is still needed, this is kind of an older list.
Maybe enlightened tutor>sterling grove. At the time this deck was formed every green deck played krosan grip sb because of counterbalance decks. That card just had to be handled. Meddling mage is just there to be sided in when you expect k.grip or extirpate after side.

Vacrix
03-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Enlightened Tutor is better than Sterling Grove. It enables Stasis by turn 3 pretty consistently. Also, try playing Luminarch Ascension. Its another Etutor target and even Stasis gets destroyed, if it comes online, you're more than likely going to win.

Kich867
03-15-2012, 12:20 AM
Enlightened Tutor is better than Sterling Grove. It enables Stasis by turn 3 pretty consistently. Also, try playing Luminarch Ascension. Its another Etutor target and even Stasis gets destroyed, if it comes online, you're more than likely going to win.

So, I played around with Stasis, honestly it didn't feel that bad.. I played a mono blue version that I won't bother posting the list of, but it felt..fine? My only problem was my deck lacked a legitimate win condition. Howling Mines and little Jace just never got there against a hardcore UW control deck, but the games were often times close--I was a turn away from stabilizing each time. I think Tidal Bore's would actually fix that issue, but having Big Jace would have been nice. You don't actually -have- to rush to drop stasis, I'd go so far as to say you should wait as long as you possibly can to do it actually..

Against a control deck, I was able to just hang out and wait until an opportune time to drop stasis. There's no rush to drop it. Batterskull was an issue only because I don't actually have any Tidal Bore's. Had I had Tidal Bore's in the deck, I 100% would have won each game I played, the only problematic card was Batterskull and had I had Tidal Bore he wouldn't be able to keep it going.

Orb of Dreams is both unnecessary but awesome. I ran two, every time I played them, it felt godlike. It screwed up fetches, it screwed up everything. Stifle was huge. Daze was huge. Thwart was huge. Little Jace was .. ok, I'd rather run big Jace and be able to actually win.

Honestly, the games go so long, you could legitimately just run a playset of fucking Bay Falcons and win, removal isn't hard to stop when it's the only thing TO stop and you have -that- many free counters.

Howling Mine's were champ too, without some kind of extra draw effects Forsaken City's kind of suck. Especially when you're running force.

I had a lot of fun with the deck, not many decks are actually equipped to handle that sort of pressure, if you can land it on someone who taps out for something or taps mostly for something, they get -real- set back.

I didn't find speed to be much of an issue, obviously against things like combo it won't be ideal, but it's fun for sure.

If I were to really put some effort into it, I think a Bant version actually would be best--I would simply drop Preordain's for Enlightened Tutor's and Orb of Dream's for Root Maze, stick with the mill plan. The idea of Root Maze being bad seems weird, at least when you're winning in a fashion that requires absolutely no interaction with the opponent. Howling Mine's and Little Jace will mill the opponent out, Root Maze being 2 mana less than OOD makes all the difference in the world when you're sustaining off of forsaken cities while you fill your hand up with more and more stuff. Root Maze hits and you win, they'll always mill out before you do and you can always have untapped mana via Forsaken Cities (Howling Mine + Little Jace keep this up).

I like the mana base listed earlier, minus all of the tundra's and tropical islands--I don't own any and don't intend to pay ~$1000 to play Stasis haha. Honestly, Forsaken Cities, that Lair land, a basic plains, a basic forest, and some fetches are all you'd need to operate those super light splashes. Maybe I'll try it out next week..Something like this:


//Counters: 12
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Thwart
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

//Lock: 6
4x Stasis
2x Root Maze

//Draw/win: 13
4x Brainstorm
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Howling Mine
3x Jace Beleren

//Utility:9
3x Chain of Vapor
4x Stifle
2x Tidal Bore

//Lands: 20
4x Forsaken City
4x Treva's Ruins
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Plains
6x Island

And the jist would be pretty simple. Play control until you find an opening, drop stasis, fetch up a root maze if you need to, and drop it. Howling Mine and Jace will do the rest. You don't have to worry about creatures and all these crazy untap gimmicks or anything--they draw from Howling Mine first, which means they lose. Jace Beleren can also both A: target them to draw and B: nuke them for 20 cards in the event you get him that high. Chain of Vapor on Stasis + Sac land to bounce Root Maze gives you an untap step if you EOT it, you can then untap, play extra Mine's to speed the game up and replay the lock.

GoldenCid
03-15-2012, 06:45 AM
Your list looks sexy. I like the non duals mana basee, it seems solid. Some questions for you: did you miss frozen aether? How did stifle work out? And I consider snare a great addition as a one of at least. If I have time i'll show you my mono u list for comments. Finally is stasis just for fun deck?

nedleeds
03-15-2012, 07:51 AM
Oh my old friend. When they unban Black Vise I will find you again.

Kich867
03-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Your list looks sexy. I like the non duals mana basee, it seems solid. Some questions for you: did you miss frozen aether? How did stifle work out? And I consider snare a great addition as a one of at least. If I have time i'll show you my mono u list for comments. Finally is stasis just for fun deck?

I've never played with Frozen Aether to be honest, at 4 mana it's really expensive for what it does.

Other lists will need to establish a soft-lock and win because they can untap things and do all these fancy tricks to try and deal with the symmetry of stasis. In my list, very little interaction occurs with the opponent, you don't care about the symmetry because you're just hanging out until you win and are trying to maintain a lock that your opponent can not win through and you with via inevitability.

Are you referring to Spell Snare or something else?

Stifle was fantastic. There were plenty of circumstances where it was just way too useful. Stifling Living Weapon triggers, Clique triggers, Wasteland, opposing Jace's, etc. Card was an all-star.

Stasis is definitely a just-for-fun deck, but I generally find myself enjoying lock decks more and more.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-15-2012, 04:14 PM
Thanks for your report. I have different findings in some points.


You don't actually -have- to rush to drop stasis, I'd go so far as to say you should wait as long as you possibly can to do it actually..

Against a control deck: definately yes. In my testings when playing against landstill I even found myself boarding stasis out.
Did you test against zoo or goblins (or another aggro deck that can kill on turn 3)? When I last toyed with stasis those decks where DtB so I mostly played against them. I often had to drop stasis turn 3, sometimes even turn 2 (on the draw). This leads to your next point:


The idea of Root Maze being bad seems weird, at least when you're winning in a fashion that requires absolutely no interaction with the opponent. Howling Mine's and Little Jace will mill the opponent out, Root Maze being 2 mana less than OOD makes all the difference in the world when you're sustaining off of forsaken cities while you fill your hand up with more and more stuff. Root Maze hits and you win, they'll always mill out before you do and you can always have untapped mana via Forsaken Cities (Howling Mine + Little Jace keep this up).

The reason I found root maze bad where:
1. try to play rootmaze against goblins or zoo on the draw. He goes land+lackey/vial/nacatl on T1, you go root maze. Now you have to wait at least to turn 4 before you can drop the stasis, thats 12 damage from nacatl alone or lots of goblins. Since Fow (and maybe stifle) are the only usefull cards to stop him, root maze costs you the precious turn you need against such decks.
2. root maze blocks you from CA through quirion ranger, daze, thward, tidal bore and lair-lands. My stasis versions quickly came to rely on that strategy because of the need to be able to drop stasis early without forsaken city. If you cut yourself from those strategies you cannot reliably cast stasis without having your win conditions on the board.
3. Root maze can be played around if your opponent knows what's coming. He won't tap out and come swinging, when you drop the stasis he will search for answers.


Howling Mine's were champ too, without some kind of extra draw effects Forsaken City's kind of suck. Especially when you're running force.
Have you tried Quirion ranger? In my testings he outperformed Howling mine. He does roughly the same thing to your cards in hand while costing one mana less (very important after early stasis), is one sided, has synergies with hirarch and can sometimes even swings for damage.


Stifle was huge. Daze was huge. Thwart was huge.

I totally agree. I would call this the core of the deck:

4 forsken city
4 stasis
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stife
2-3 Thwart
3-4 E.Tutor effects


Stifle was fantastic. There were plenty of circumstances where it was just way too useful. Stifling Living Weapon triggers, Clique triggers, Wasteland, opposing Jace's, etc. Card was an all-star.

Not to mention quasali pridemage and P.deed. I think 4 stifle is a must.


Other lists will need to establish a soft-lock and win because they can untap things and do all these fancy tricks to try and deal with the symmetry of stasis.
I think softlock is the way to go. You just cannot rely on 2 more permanents for a hardlock if your opponent has any sort of clock, disruption or permission (like any other half way decent legacy deck).


Stasis is definitely a just-for-fun deck, but I generally find myself enjoying lock decks more and more.
I think stasis has a favorible matchup against midrange aggro decks that don't pack a lot of permission or disruption. Decks like maverick :) just be aware of k.grip. In my testings zoo and goblins where favorible as well. Combo does not like 12 free counterspells+4 stifle postboard.
I had huge problems with decks packing a lot of control, discard or landdestrucion.

Oiolosse
03-15-2012, 05:16 PM
@spock: beating aggro is hard. I bring in propaganda which helps.

Meditate is awesome for me. Eot meditate when tangle wire has already tapped you out has much less of a draw back. Even late game its great. Ive drawn into lock pieces often.

I had mono blue stasis and my current list for years, as separate decks. Mono u was for fun as i played4 gush. I won't play mono u wthout it. So i play tested stasis in my UG lockdown petdeck. It's awesome. I play so mnay mana dorks to ensure that i establish board presence before i drop lock pieces. I use stasis as an incremental tempo piece. I maykeep it up for 2 turns or indefinitely.

Lately i have pulled back on mana dorks and untappers for 3 gsz and its awesome. Now i have room for more finishers and utility without sacrificing too much speed.

@rootmaze: it blows for me. Winter orb is important in my build and it deactivates that first turn. I dont use forsaken city so returning forestto have it ebtapped is a major hindrance.

@Garruk: he is a must 4 of. He is a finisher and enabler.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-15-2012, 07:40 PM
@spock: beating aggro is hard. I bring in propaganda which helps.

That depends on your build. The sooner you can drop stasis, the less issues you will have with aggro.
My build can drop stasis turn 3 very consistently, often enough turn 2.

Kich867
03-15-2012, 07:56 PM
No see, that's the misconception I'm talking about. Why are you playing Root Maze on turn 1? That's not delaying anything, it's restarting the game, you're a turn behind, he's a turn behind, except you have root maze down, it doesn't actually change anything.

I genuinely can't see Zoo winning on turn 3, not without fireblasts of sorts--Delver can with turn 3 with like absurd god-hands with virtually no disruption, same goes for Zoo.

Let them swing, then drop stasis with some way to keep paying for it, then drop root maze after. Stasis alleviates pressure, Root Maze seals the game, then you just wait.

The reason Ranger I find to be unsatisfactory is, well, what is he going to actually -do- in the event they have a blocker that I can't tap? Howling Mine can win the game and keep stasis up, Jace Beleren can as well. I don't even care if it's mutual because I rarely care about what they're doing.

I haven't tested against very fast aggro though, I can ask my friend to bring his goblin deck next time, but realistically--especially goblins with little to no enchantment hate, I can keep him occupied with counters and bounce while I find the answers.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-15-2012, 09:20 PM
No see, that's the misconception I'm talking about. Why are you playing Root Maze on turn 1? That's not delaying anything, it's restarting the game, you're a turn behind, he's a turn behind, except you have root maze down, it doesn't actually change anything.

Root maze does not effect creatures, so he does swing one more turn when you are on the draw.
The more important drawback is that root maze disables all your other nice synergies.



The reason Ranger I find to be unsatisfactory is, well, what is he going to actually -do- in the event they have a blocker that I can't tap? Howling Mine can win the game and keep stasis up, Jace Beleren can as well. I don't even care if it's mutual because I rarely care about what they're doing.

He gives you an extra card every turn, just like howling mine. Except you can drop him for 1cc (meaning one less card to pitch for FS) and does not give your opponent any benefits. The swing option is just circumstancial bonus.
Howling mine alone won't win you games because of the time limit tournaments usually have.

Vacrix
03-15-2012, 10:32 PM
Root Maze is just bad. Its a terrible topdeck and it prevents you from running fetchlands.

@mono-blue version
Its slow and you might as well be playing MUC.

I had the most success (granted it was just against scrubs on MWS) with a UGW version. Playing FoW isn't necessary. The deck has enough mana to blank Daze and Spell Pierce. You only have to worry about FoW and Spell Snare. Winter Orbs are fantastic post-board. The main problem the deck has is that if you want to play protection you sacrifice the consistency that you need to get the lock down consistently before aggro can kill you. Post-board you can board in SDT and Counterbalance so that you have a reasonable matchup against combo, given that you also play SDT you can usually get turn 2 counterbalance, and Stifle helps.

Against Wasteland, you have Stifle and BoP/Hierarch + Ranger(s).. and Rangers + Trop.

Also Garruk is a must in Stasis. It enables so many insane turn 3 plays and its the best wincondition the deck has.

If you own a Moat, E-Tutor + Moat isn't half bad either in some matchups too.

Kich867
03-15-2012, 11:52 PM
Root maze does not effect creatures, so he does swing one more turn when you are on the draw.
The more important drawback is that root maze disables all your other nice synergies.




He gives you an extra card every turn, just like howling mine. Except you can drop him for 1cc (meaning one less card to pitch for FS) and does not give your opponent any benefits. The swing option is just circumstancial bonus.
Howling mine alone won't win you games because of the time limit tournaments usually have.

It doesn't affect creatures, but that doesn't matter, Root Maze isn't being used as a means to stall them, it locks the game in place. If they can't win with the mana they have now, they'll lose, that's the bottom line--they probably won't win with the mana they have, not through daze, thwart, force, chain, and bore. I have the advantage of being able to continually play things through Forsaken City untap triggers, they don't.

Howling Mine(s) and Jace will mill them, if they want to slow-play that's fine. It actually doesn't take -that- much time when you're drawing 3-5 cards a turn, the eventual Jace bomb speeds it up as well. I don't ever intend to actually bring this to a tournament outside of my local FNM--the last time I brought TurboFog there I went 3-0, never went to turns, didn't drop a game, etc.. and Turbofog actually gives people options to get out. If I drop a stasis, stabilize, and then drop Root Maze, there's no options out of that--you only need to stop a few more spells at that point in order to not die.

And if you -really- want to, you can EOT chain of vapor your stasis, sac a land, hit root maze, untap, play more mines or whatever, reestablish lock, just to speed things up.

And there's a reason I only run 2 root maze, as you said, quite frankly--the soft lock is good enough. Even with the softlock in this deck, the amount of free counters is dumb and you only legitimately need to stop a few spells from resolving before they lose.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-16-2012, 11:15 AM
Howling Mine(s) and Jace will mill them, if they want to slow-play that's fine. It actually doesn't take -that- much time when you're drawing 3-5 cards a turn, the eventual Jace bomb speeds it up as well. I don't ever intend to actually bring this to a tournament outside of my local FNM--the last time I brought TurboFog there I went 3-0, never went to turns, didn't drop a game, etc.. and Turbofog actually gives people options to get out. If I drop a stasis, stabilize, and then drop Root Maze, there's no options out of that--you only need to stop a few more spells at that point in order to not die.

I did test turbofog myself, it's an entirely different deck that gets to work with lots of mana and lots of howling mine effects (16 to be precise). In stasis things just don't work that way.
If you only tested against UW control he probably did let your howling mine resolve since he benefits more then you do.
Maybe we should just test via MWS since we seem to have different playtest results.


Also Garruk is a must in Stasis. It enables so many insane turn 3 plays and its the best wincondition the deck has.

I'm not so sure about that. 4 CMC is quite a lot, even with 8 acelleration cards the probability of a turn 3 drop is roughly 40%. I usually cannot dream about freeing up 4 mana under stasis and I do not have to (playing serra avenger for wincondition).


The main problem the deck has is that if you want to play protection you sacrifice the consistency that you need to get the lock down consistently before aggro can kill you.

My list focuses on both and sacrifices free mana. I can drop stasis quite consistently with 2 counters in hand but I'm usually low on free mana. You could test my list with -3 brainstorm +3 exploration, -4 sterling grove +4 E.tutor. I'd be interrested in what you say.


Playing FoW isn't necessary.

In my build I would not want to miss it. Yes, the carddisadvantage is a bummer but the unconditional free counterspell is nuts. FoW is often the card that saves me when stabalizing my stasis drop. This is often a point where spellpierce would not help since I'm down to one open mana.


If you own a Moat, E-Tutor + Moat isn't half bad either in some matchups too.Moat is a good idea, maybe as 1 of in the SB.

Oiolosse
03-16-2012, 03:54 PM
Mono blue (possible light splash) and a dedicated green/blue build are just so different.

I have no counters. I rely less on stasis. Dropping a garruk after winterorb or in tandem with tangle wire buys enough time to build a stronger lock.

No one runs 4 rishadan port? T2 tangle wire followed by t3 orb with port is hilarious. Cant play much but 1cmc for rest of the game. Then rangers untap mana dorks and bounce trops to sustain stasis or meditate into more shit.

I just cant play mono blue stasis wihtout gush, that card was meant for monoU stasis, what a shame it's so broken.

@ MonoU players: have you tried misdirection? I ran as a 2 of and loved it.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-17-2012, 01:21 AM
No one runs 4 rishadan port? T2 tangle wire followed by t3 orb with port is hilarious. Cant play much but 1cmc for rest of the game. Then rangers untap mana dorks and bounce trops to sustain stasis or meditate into more shit.

I don't run port because I want all my lands to produce U. I can see the benefit of EOT tap into stasis.
Rangers+mana dorks really is nuts. Have you tried exploration? I don't want to miss it and the deck can use the extra tempo.


I just cant play mono blue stasis wihtout gush, that card was meant for monoU stasis, what a shame it's so broken.
Yep, it's a shame. Gush is the jetpack for stasis. But even then I'd splash white for E.tutor and probably green for crop rotation and exploration.


@ MonoU players: have you tried misdirection? I ran as a 2 of and loved it.
Misdirection is the only SB card I'm sure about as 4 of. Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, an opponent heavy on counterspells (like landstill) or combo are very good reasons to board it in.
I found it too situational to be played maindeck though. And with 4 FoW already in my list the carddisadvantage hurts (would be no problem with gush).

I updated my list, the SB is still crap but the rest works fairly good against the usual MWS random decks.


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
3 [US] Exploration
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

Vacrix
03-17-2012, 02:03 AM
I actually really like Exploration in this. Its the nuts with multiple Rangers and it helps you accelerate into fast hands that play Stasis lock on turn 2. Also, it helps you to play drawn lands if Rangers + Trop is your lock method. Good idea dude. Its actually a good topdeck post-stasis.

Personally, I'd play your list
-1 Tundra
-2 Thwart
+1 Savannah
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Luminarch Ascension

Although I really suggest Garruk. Hitting 4 mana is nothing for this deck dude. By turn 3 you can be making 4 mana per turn with 1 land, 1 BoP/Heirarch and 1 Ranger. Tap land and mana dork, untap mana dork, replay land. With 2 lands, you can just replay the land, on turn 3 and then untap both, playing stasis, upkeep bounce your land to untap BoP to pay U, then you are set for the rest of the game. Make a few 3/3's, then overrun your opponent. Even if they break out of a Stasis lock, if you have a win condition like Garruk, it won't matter.

On the other hand, an online Luminarch Ascension wins games. By the time its online, even if your opponent can break out of the Stasis lock, you've most likely won this one.

Also, I played a random Jitte in my list a while back. It was the nuts when you have all of these mana dorks to equip it to and an Enlightened Tutor. If your opponent keeps you off Stasis, its a good alternative so you aren't completely fucked against something like Surgical Extraction. Jitte + Avenger usually sets you far enough ahead anyway that aggro has trouble racing you.

In regards to your win conditions, you win way too slowly. You actually give your opponent the opportunity to break out of the Stasis lock. Garruk in particular not only gets your Stasis going on its own, it gives you a powerful position against an opponent who can break out of the Stasis lock. You'll have a few 3/3's and enough counters to build up to an Overrun. Ascension is even more dangerous. 4 turns is a short time under Stasis, and when they destroy it with Pridemage or something, you'll be making 2 or 3 4/4's with flying every turn if not more. Few decks can recover from this.


I'm still against playing Force of Will. I think it would be better as Brainstorm so you can take advantage of 6 Fetchlands + 4 Enlightened Tutor and have a strong cantrip to fix your hand to help get the Stasis lock online.

I can't see why you would be having trouble against heavy discard. This deck usually shits its hand on the second turn to set up a turn 3. Half the time you'll be playing Enlightened Tutor in response to the opponent's discard meaning that you'll be able to protect your Stasis. In games where you draw Stasis and then they make you discard it, running Brainstorm or SDT will help you recover... while Brainstorm can hide your combo pieces on top of your library.

If you find yourself losing to discard, I've found that SDT was extremely helpful in this situation as it allows you to use all that spare mana you have before the combo turn to search for all the right pieces, and use Etutors and fetches to shuffle away irrelevant stuff. Also, playing a few main board gives you more sideboard space for Counterbalance/Top combo. Meddling Mage has long been the worst hatebear you can conceivably play against combo. Why would you ever play that when you can play Cannonist, which you can find with Etutor... or Counterbalance, which is fantastic against combo. I'd play both, but just one Cannonist. Its a good second Etutor target if you can lay a Counterbalance down early enough. Also, Misdirection is horrible. Why 3 for 2 your opponent's Hymns when you could just as easily run 4 Flusterstorm and then have more post-board combo hate. Seriously this deck is fucking horrible against combo because the clock is extremely slow and the lock doesn't even really do anything against the opponent unless they are drawing a shit ton of land. You need to take advantage of Enlightened Tutor and play a post-board anti-combo package. This deck is fantastic against aggro, and you don't really need FoW to beat control. The deck has way too much mana to care about Daze or Spell Pierce, you have maindeck Wasteland protection. You only have to worry about Spell Snare and FoW, and Spell Snare doesn't see nearly as much play as Spell Pierce. Post-board you should play Winterorbs as a Psuedo-Stasis that your deck can get around easily with manadorks.

Vacrix
03-17-2012, 06:18 AM
I'm testing the following list on Cockatrice. I've only played against Storm and Goblins, but I won both matches pretty easily. Game 1 against storm was shitty obviously, but post board I have 14 cards to handle combo with. Goblins I beat him twice by Etutor --> Dreadnought into Stifle. Even if he had managed to bounce my dude, I had access to a Stasis play on the following turn in both games.

UGw Stasis
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Rangers
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells:
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Exploration
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Luminarch Ascension

Land:
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah

SB:
4 Counterbalance
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Winter Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

Birds of Paradise help you to accelerate consistently into a turn 2 or 3 Stasis, and it interacts well with the Quirion Ranger in addition to Noble Hierarch. The random Phyrexian Dreadnought is straight up winning games. Stifle is good for protecting Stasis, but sometimes Enlightened Tutor + Stifle in hand is a great turn 2 play into Dreadnought, like against Goblins. Its also a fantastic win condition that gets there quickly post-stasis. You can untap him with your Rangers while he swings in, bouncing your Trop to pay upkeep. I run a 2nd one post-board simply because they are THAT good in some matchups. Exploration has been fantastic. I've been able to play something like turn 1 Exploration, 2nd land, noble Hierarch, turn 2, land, rangers, tap hierarch, bounce land, replay land, tap for 4, Garruk, untap 2 lands, play Stasis... yeah. sick.

The Luminarch Ascension is a cheap, go to win condition if you already have the Stasis lock via Enlightened Tutor. Also, the 2 Tundra 2 Savannah config is important because you want to consistently have G turn 1, not blue. Tundras are only useful if you are playing Thwart, but I haven't found it to be that good compared to playing more mana dorks. I tried playing with Treva's Ruins but I never found a situation in which it would be better than a fetchland. Fetchlands find Trop. The more Trops you run, the better, and the fetches are fantastic with Brainstorm.

Post-board, against combo:
+4 Counterbalance
+2 Sensei's Diving Top
+1 Ethersworn Cannonist
+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Stasis
-2 Garruk Wildspeaker
-1 Exploration
-1 Birds of Paradise
-1 Scryb Rangers

That gives you 4 solid locks against combo, in addition to Etutor which provides you with 4 more virtual CBs. Cannonist is a good option to accompany CB if you already have it out and have a spare Etutor. SDT helps you secure the lock. EE is for EtW and the Dreadnought is to give you a reasonable clock as you SDT + fetch your way into a win condition. Stifle and Daze are already in the maindeck.

Against aggro:
+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Garruk Wildspeaker

The extra Dreadnought helps you beast a clock on them.

Against control:
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Sensei's Diving Top
+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-4 Daze
-1 Birds of Paradise

Winter Orbs slow down control without slowing you down because you have manadorks + rangers. SDT gives you card quality so that you can try to land Stasis or Phyrexian Dreadnought. I'm thinking about testing Defense Grid in place of Winter Orbs, might work better.

Against Dredge:
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-3 Stasis
-1 Garruk Wildspeaker
-1 Luminarch Ascension

You don't need slow stuff against Dredge. On the off chance that they play alot of lands or get out a bunch of Zombies, EOT Etutor --> Stasis could be a good play so I keep one in.

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-17-2012, 07:36 AM
Thanks for your report, I'm glad you like my list. I won't quote every comment on every card choice by hand, its just too much and we seem to have a somehow similar view on the deck anyway. Here is what I think about those card choices:

Garruk: I found him to be win more. If you can drop him (freeing 4 mana under stasis) you do not need his untap ability. Serra Avanger is faster at winning or a counterspell could protect your stasis in that slot.

Jitte: Seems like you dropped the Jitte in your build. I think its win more again. Its 4 mana under stasis, imho way too much for what it does.

About misdirection and discard: Here is my math: 11 cards till turn 3 on the draw. 4 mana sources, 1 stasis, 1 exploration, 2 or 3 cards to get stasis through permission or deny very important plays by the opponent, ,1 quirion ranger. Thats one or 2 cards left w/o E.tutor played in a quite ideal setup. In the approximately 50 stasis decks I played with my old list I mostly ended up with 1 or 2 cards left in hand. Happened so consistently you could count on it. Every good legacy deck required approximately the same amount of counterspells to get to a stabilized stasis on the board. Now plan an opponents hymn...
Misdirection is huge in solcing this.

About Serra Avanger for the win: He is the cheapest reliable one card win condition we got. He can operate w/o ranger, he flies (very important in the face of untapped goyfs, something garruk cannot do as well btw) and he usually kills in 5-6 turns (considering opponents fetchlands or your hierarch). 10 free counterspells and 4 stifle have done the trick 90% of the time when my opponent tries to fight the avenger. Just deny everything he does with daze, thwart and FoW :)

About Luminarch Ascension: I usually do not have the mana to use such a card and I usually loose when my stasis lock breaks. It's mostly broken at instant speed EOT or by removing my only open mana source, or by letting my run dry by removing my rangers and FS. At that time my opponent untaps first and I'm pretty much dead (since he dropped a lot of creatures, build a near perfect hand and has lots of lands in play). I did not test it but I cannot think of a situation where I'd not rather have dropped a win condition or have another permission card in hand.

About SDT: Think more stasis :) think of stasis+FS or stasis+quirion ranger as either I draw no extra cards and stasis effects the board or I lay no extra lands and stasis effects the board. Usually you can count 1 mana = one handcard or one of 10 trick ponys (daze, thwart, trevar's ruins). Under those conditions SDT is horrible.

About Nought: Very good find! I will have to look into this, requiring 2 cards is kind of a drawback (3 counting E.tutor) but the gain is huge! I will have to tinker with this more and see how it compares to Serra Avenger.

About Meddling Mage: My sideboard is surely subobtimal. Meddling mage was there back in the day to fight Krosan Grip (counterbalance was very popular by then) and extirpate. Sure there are better options vs combo.

About your list:

It looks like a slightly different approach. You traded permission for accelleration and kill power. I think that approach is legetimate depending on the meta. You will have an easier time against aggro, ichorid and maybe combo (less counterspells but much faster clock). But you will run into problems if your opponent plays lots of counterspells or lots of removal. Look at the permission and removal decks like bant, bladecontroll, tempo thresh or team america play.
And there are other cards you absolutely do not want to see like a pre stasis standstill. Playing against landstill is often decided when standstill resolves pre stasis. Or EE@1.
That's why I tried to go for the minimum suite to consistently play and sustain stasis, 3 slots for wincondition and the rest for permission.

P.S. you seem to side in another dread in every MU, why not play one more MD?

Vacrix
03-17-2012, 02:09 PM
I actually agree about Garruk. I was running him because he both enabled Stasis and provided a win condition but more Dreadnoughts is probably stronger.

Jitte wasn't working out for me so I dropped it. 4 mana can be a lot to ask for post-Stasis.

I like Avenger and I played it in my old build. I just feel like its too vulnerable to Lightning Bolt, which is heavily played these days. The upside is with Hierarch, you can kill in roughly 5 turns.

I really want to test Mirri's Guile; its less mana intensive than SDT and with 12 shuffle effects, it will allow you to find a win condition relatively quickly post-stasis.

Testing changes:
-1 Luminarch Ascension
-2 Garruk Wildspeaker
+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+2 Mirri's Guile


EDIT:
Carpet of Flowers enables Stasis on its own and then some versus blue.dec. Worth it post-board?

Vacrix
03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
I've been heavily testing this deck, mostly goldfishing just so I can practice getting the lock down. Eventually I added protection and started playing around countermagic. My current version can easily play around 1 countermagic if it lays down 2 threats. Often the deck has so much mana now that it laughs at Spell Pierce and Daze if you choose to play around them. Force, Counterspell, and Spell Snare are the bigger players here. Pre-board this version can play around 2 solid counterspells (not including Daze/Pierce) and if you get a great hand, as many as 4. I'm still working on a post-board plan to combat blue, but I'll mention that later as I'm currently trying to fine-tune the preboard.
I missed Luminarch Ascension so I added it back in. The deck simply needs a way to win without Stifle, otherwise you are searching for a 2 card combination that loses to STP/PtE. Its not consistent against some decks. Also, now that I'm running Elephant Grass, sometimes you don't even need an active Stasis down for 4 turns to win. You can Elephant Grass them for a turn, Chant walk them for another, and then Stasis for 2 turns, and start cranking out angels.

On to the list:


WUG Stasis
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Rangers
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Rangers
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Enchantments:
4 Stasis
2 Exploration
2 Elephant Grass
1 Luminarch Ascension

Instants:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Orim's Chant
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Meditate

Land:
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah

Card choices....
I cut a Birds because I found myself drawing way too many manadorks with some hands and nothing to do with them except throw them back with a Brainstorm and a fetch. 6 and 6 has been pretty consistent. 2 Dreadnoughts and 4 Virtual coupled with Stifle leaves me with a turn 2 Dreadnought pretty consistently with mana to pay for Daze. Exploration is still fantastic. Its a great one drop that lets you acceleration into something like 4 lands turn 2, Stasis, dodge Spell Pierce. Fuck yeah. Its also great with either Rangers. In fact, if I only have a rangers out as my Stasis lock source, then I often play my first Etutor for Exploration that way I can bounce a land during my turn, and then one during my opponents turn so I have a solid 2 mana per turn, one to hopefully draw into Chain of Vapor or a BoP/Hierarch. Elephant Grass is tits. It stops them from being too aggressive early on. Either they attack with the dudes they have, or they play more dudes. Either way, their lands are going to be tapped down for most of the time, which is a great lead in to Stasis. Often I can keep the Elephant Grass going for 4 or 5 turns if need be. Sometimes I Chain of Vapor it just to stall a little longer. With enough mana, the deck can even support 2 at a time to prevent them from attacking entirely. I've kept up to for 4 turns at a time in more than one game. In short, run Elephant Grass. I decided to run Orim's Chant over Daze because Daze doesn't really do very much for the deck, honestly. I played at least 100 games with Daze in the deck and every time I drew it I wished it was something else. You don't need to bounce Islands. You already have a much more permanent bouncer in the form of 6 Rangers as well as 4 Forsaken City, which is 10 total sources. I've found that to consistently be enough. Even if you don't have a permanent source, often you can just hold out with 4 or 5 lands with your BoP/Hierarch til you draw either a Quirion Ranger or Chain of Vapor. Further, Chant lets you Chant walk your opponent for an attack phase, or prevent them from casting any more spells, essentially buying you another turn. It obviously functions well as a protection spell, and ups your maindeck storm hate from 4 cards to 7 cards. As for Chain of Vapor, I love the card. It can bounce your opponents fatty to slow them down a full turn sometimes, Goyf, Knight, etc. It can bounce a permanent thats preventing you from comboing, like a Pridemage, and it can bounce either Elephant Grass or Stasis to reset the board on your side. Meditate I'm on the fence about. I think I'm going to keep it in though. Its great for giving you extra steam once you are inside your lock, draw some cards, feed spare lands to City and drop some extra dorks incase they decide to kill one, draw into your win conditions, etc. I've also found it to be pretty good as a setup piece. Sometimes you just shit your entire hand on to the field, like Trop, Exploration, Savannah, Hierarch, Trop, Rangers, Elephant Grass... then Meditate when they can't attack you during their extra turn. That or you can just Chant walk them to essentially deny them the extra turn, but I like Elephant Grass + Meditate much better in the setup part of the game.

So thats the maindeck I'm working on. I'll write up the board later once I have it worked out a little better, but note that 4 Etutor post-board --> 2 Cannonist gives you +6 cards to work with post board, one extra Chant, and a Thorn, so 15 cards total against storm. That should be enough. I'm going to test Choke against control, and a few other cards.

In the mean time though, I need to find a card to search with off Etutor thats great against control, ideally something with Hexproof and/or uncounterability. Any ideas?

Oiolosse
03-20-2012, 01:42 AM
@Vactrix -- that wall of text is boo. You usually have well laid out, quality posts so you're forgiven this time ;)

I am intrigued by your list! It is quite different from the direction I am taking mine however you have chosen cards that I've tried in the past or have given thought to. Notably, Chain of Vapor, Elephant Grass and Exploration.

Some questions/comments about your build/testing:

1. Your whole deck is like 1 freaking mana and you run Exploration, Do you often times find that you shit your hand into play too quickly without an adequate way of refilling? You run 2 Mediate for advantage and 4 BS with 8 fetches for quality.

I toyed around with Trade Routes but not near enough and I didn't use it in conjunction with Exploration. THOUGHTS ON THIS.

2. Orim's Chant seems like poop here. I love the card but you have hella mana ramp with the Exploration and manadorks/Rangers but nothing to excel into. I think this really needs to be 3-4 CMC something. 2nd turn Sword of Fire and Ice looks clutch here. The draw would be helpful and shocking from an artifact source is KEY.

On a more serious note: Garruk is stoopid good with Stasis. IMO it's a must.

3. Dreadnought is fun and all but you can't protect him. I think he is only viable with countermagic support.

4. Even though I'm not down with Dreadnought I do love Stifle. With all the mana dorks I hate getting blown out by EE and Deed, and in this type of deck they won't see stifle coming. So maybe leave in MD and bring in Dreadnought from the board? This would free some slots for either card advantage or more lock pieces:

just for example:

-3 Orim's Chant
-2 Dreadnought
+4 Tangle Wire
+1 Meditate



ETutor targets which are good against control but that don't screw you as well...

City of Solitude
In the Eye of Chaos
Equipoise (ironic that it's great with rangers but bad with rangers--fun card though)
Sword of X&Y
Land Equilibrium
Parallax Tide since you run Stifle

Some of these are lame-o suggestions but I'm drawing blanks.

Let us know how it develops.

Vacrix
03-20-2012, 02:38 AM
My bad man. I kinda shat that post onto the page on my way out the door.

In regards to the low number of land, I've found that you can play most of the deck off of just two lands most of the time. Forsaken City does quite a bit of work until you can land the manadork combo and then just start cranking out mana. I've found Exploration as a 2'of to be quite playable. Sometimes you do in fact shit your hand into nothing but cantrips. Thats a problem I'm working to solve. Meditate did a nice job of that, especially coupled with Elephant Grass. Its simply too good with a Rangers to ignore though as you can bounce one land on your turn and another on the opponents turn. I'd say its a nice topdeck mid-Stasis. I'm not sure how to use Trade Routes with Exploration. The card doesn't seem to provide you with that much unless you can bounce a land that produces more than 2 mana. How were you using it?

Orim's Chant can function as a 1 mana protection spell, anti-storm hate, and a timewalk to give you an extra turn. This deck is weak against storm, needs a little extra time against aggro, and needs protection against countermagic. I'd say it fulfills more functions in this deck than another protection spell could.

In regards to 3-4 CMC, I've been playing x2 Thrun, the Last Troll post-board and thats been giving control players a hell of a hard time. I do agree on Garruk though. I'll probably give him another go given that I play so many small dudes that can't really function on their own. I thought that Batterskull might be another reasonable add. Its tutorable with Enlightened Tutor and through life gain would provide a nice safety net in the case that they break out of the lock. What do you think?

I've only played like 20 games so far. In most of my games against control, I had enough mana to blank Spell Pierce and Daze while FoW and Spell Snare tripped me up. Phyrexian Dreadnought dodges Spell Snare so if I would make some kind of play like lead with Chant (FoW) into Dreadnought/Stifle. If they countered that, I proceeded to setup Stasis and then try for a wincon later. Most people conceded once Stasis was active, having no way to break out of it once it came down.

I agree on removing some Dreadnoughts but I think one as an 'oops I win' factor gives the deck the punch it needs sometimes. I swear its fucking amazing when it just falls into your lap against something like Goblins that have a small number of answers to it.

I like Tanglewire. Its on my list of cards to test. I'm not sure it can replace a protection spell like Chant though. Without Chant, the deck runs 0 protection. I'd rather cut Meditates and/or Chain of Vapor. Both have been rather dull in comparison to all the other cards. Meditate doesn't give you the card quality you need to get there after Stasis comes down. Often I just find myself playing more dorks and having way too many lands. Chain can be good but you need a lot of mana out in the first place for it to be good without an untapper or a City, which isn't usually the case. It can be cut for something else.

Parallax Tide could be pretty good coupled with Stifle. I think the deck would rather have Parallax Wave though honestly given that Stifle would allow you to remove your opponent's board. Though I don't know how good Parallax Wave would be without Stifle.

I found Choke to be pretty good against control. Even though it affects your island too, your dorks produce enough mana to keep you going and Rangers allow you to untap your Trops.



Its a little random.. but I kinda want to test Momentous Fall with a heavier Dreadnought build; more cards that interact with Nought. Drawing 12 cards and gaining 12 life is huge and you can do it as early as turn 3. This deck has no problem getting to 5 mana. After the lock.. maybe a few turns.

Oiolosse
03-20-2012, 03:53 AM
My bad man. I kinda shat that post onto the page on my way out the door.

In regards to the low number of land, I've found that you can play most of the deck off of just two lands most of the time. Forsaken City does quite a bit of work until you can land the manadork combo and then just start cranking out mana. I've found Exploration as a 2'of to be quite playable. Sometimes you do in fact shit your hand into nothing but cantrips. Thats a problem I'm working to solve. Meditate did a nice job of that, especially coupled with Elephant Grass. Its simply too good with a Rangers to ignore though as you can bounce one land on your turn and another on the opponents turn. I'd say its a nice topdeck mid-Stasis. I'm not sure how to use Trade Routes with Exploration. The card doesn't seem to provide you with that much unless you can bounce a land that produces more than 2 mana. How were you using it?
Well, as you said, you can play your deck on two lands and manadorks so Trade Routes allows you to cycle the lands naturally drawn, Meditatively drawn and bounced via Rangers. I haven't tested it with Exploration but it seems like you'd be able to cycle through quite a bit of cards per turn under the Stasis lock.

Orim's Chant can function as a 1 mana protection spell, anti-storm hate, and a timewalk to give you an extra turn. This deck is weak against storm, needs a little extra time against aggro, and needs protection against countermagic. I'd say it fulfills more functions in this deck than another protection spell could.
I reckon I'd just have to test it. I love Chant and have only used it in TES where chantwalking is the least common use. I def. can see its uses but it's a one-shot use and I'm not sure that's the direction I'd take.

In regards to 3-4 CMC, I've been playing x2 Thrun, the Last Troll post-board and thats been giving control players a hell of a hard time.
I love Thrun, I have him as a one of in my build. I use run 3 MD GSZ so it helps me get him more regularly

I do agree on Garruk though. I'll probably give him another go given that I play so many small dudes that can't really function on their own.
He is just great. It's he sustains the lock on his own. They can topdeck STP for your Ranger or Wasteland your Forsaken City, etc. Garruk is a harder to deal with for sure and he protects himself against the ground and Overruns to victory.

I thought that Batterskull might be another reasonable add. Its tutorable with Enlightened Tutor and through life gain would provide a nice safety net in the case that they break out of the lock. What do you think?
I love what it adds. Vigilance is awesome here when they remove your untappers. I just think it may be a tad overcosted. We can cast it since we produce so much but the Swords of X&Y are castable on T2 and much cheaper to equip. I'd have to test it and see in which match ups it shines.

I've only played like 20 games so far. In most of my games against control, I had enough mana to blank Spell Pierce and Daze while FoW and Spell Snare tripped me up. Phyrexian Dreadnought dodges Spell Snare so if I would make some kind of play like lead with Chant (FoW) into Dreadnought/Stifle. If they countered that, I proceeded to setup Stasis and then try for a wincon later. Most people conceded once Stasis was active, having no way to break out of it once it came down.
If that's the case then why win with the 'Nought? I mean, if you can secure Stasis more regularly then it may be unneeded. Hmm, but I see what you're saying, it DOES secure the lock because they deal with that leaving you uninterrupted to lock them out.


I agree on removing some Dreadnoughts but I think one as an 'oops I win' factor gives the deck the punch it needs sometimes. I swear its fucking amazing when it just falls into your lap against something like Goblins that have a small number of answers to it.

I like Tanglewire. Its on my list of cards to test. I'm not sure it can replace a protection spell like Chant though.
I love Tanglewire. A resolved T2 Tanglewire is so much fun. It's lopsided as hell anyway and you dump so much into play it becomes entirely lopsided. Meditate EoT knowing their 2-3 lands will be tapped out anyway. Then after their free turn you netted 3 cards while they progressed nothing on the board. It's great as a late game topdeck as well. If Stasis is active and they are slowing accumulating untapped lands you just slap a Tanglewire to ruin their day, it's great fun.

Without Chant, the deck runs 0 protection. I'd rather cut Meditates and/or Chain of Vapor. Both have been rather dull in comparison to all the other cards. Meditate doesn't give you the card quality you need to get there after Stasis comes down. Often I just find myself playing more dorks and having way too many lands.
Another reason why Trade Routes as a 2 of may do the trick? I use more permanents in my build so Meditate let's me drop Garruk's, Tanglewires and Winter Orbs, maybe that is why I'm so partial to it.
Chain can be good but you need a lot of mana out in the first place for it to be good without an untapper or a City, which isn't usually the case. It can be cut for something else.

Parallax Tide could be pretty good coupled with Stifle. I think the deck would rather have Parallax Wave though honestly given that Stifle would allow you to remove your opponent's board. Though I don't know how good Parallax Wave would be without Stifle.
Good point, Parallax Wave is more needed since we run zero removal. Without Stifle? I used to play with Replenish back in the day (no stifle) and it was just good. If you have a clock (you don't really without 'Nought) then it can be great. Remove the only viable blocker and it's gone for four turns. With Stifle it's great though.


I found Choke to be pretty good against control. Even though it affects your island too, your dorks produce enough mana to keep you going and Rangers allow you to untap your Trops.

Agreed.

Its a little random.. but I kinda want to test Momentous Fall with a heavier Dreadnought build; more cards that interact with Nought. Drawing 12 cards and gaining 12 life is huge and you can do it as early as turn 3. This deck has no problem getting to 5 mana. After the lock.. maybe a few turns.
Wait, why? If you have the 'Nought in play then you probably won! Momentous Fall is instant but considering you just stifled a Nought into play I doubt you have an additional 4 mana ready. It's win more for sure.

Kich867
03-20-2012, 04:15 AM
Vacrix, how often do you actually end up using stasis in your build? Is it typically just a means to activing Luminarch Ascension?

SpoCk0nd0pe
03-20-2012, 08:44 PM
Thanks for your reports Vacrix.

Your stasis support suite differs from mine only in +2 chain of vaport -4 lands (lair lands!) +2 BoP. I'm sometimes having trouble getting 2 mana open. In my tougher games I have to play 2 counterspells to just keep that going, it actually happens 30%-50% of the times. Hitting 5 mana before dropping stasis is no cakewalk for me (and makes me lack the counterspells I usually need to protect my stasis). No offense, I'm just wondering why your list is working so well for you. Maybe because you hit mostly decks that conceded after the stasis drop. I still loose after a dropped stasis often enough, even with 10 counterspells MD. I usually wish to draw into more counterspells to keep my opponents removal from my stasis.

Daze is nuts even if he plays around it. Its one land to your hand for one less mana on his side. Imho a good trade.

About meditade: Why not play a win condition instead? 3 mana is enough to drop something that kills. You give your opponent 2 more turns to find an answer to the stasis.

I do not see how chant really protects the stasis. He will just play the card next turn.

Elephant grass seems to be a good card against aggro. Maybe its SB for me, but good find!

Exploration is really nuts, my old list ran 4, I'm still not sure if I want to find room for Exploration nr 4 in my list.

Vacrix
03-20-2012, 09:47 PM
Looks like Tanglewire is pretty good. I'm still testing every day (spring break).

I've been thinking about the following two cards, tell me what you think:
Dormant Gomazoa could be a nice beater. 1UU for a 5/5 with evasion is nice when we can untap him at will with Rangers. That gets there in 4 turns, which is faster than most of the other one card win conditions we've come up with. Also, it can get there independent of Stasis since it can come down something like second turn. Just slap down Elephant Grass and race their asses.

Tradewind Riders, a means of bouncing Stasis at the end of turn whilst taking advantage of spare mana dorks. Its a bit costly but it can also bounce opposing permanents, and at 4 toughness, its not vulnerable to Bolt/Chain.

Oiolosse
03-21-2012, 12:34 PM
God damnit. Lost post. I'll make this quick.
Luminarch > Dormant Gomazoa

Bc DG can be stp'ed and Rangers can be bolted. Bc much less dedicated solutions to enchantments.

I used to run Tradewind Riders and it was great until i played against real decks. It's sloooow and under Stasis, very untenable. You need two untapped creatures and TR itself needs to be untapped. Also, i ran TR before Jace. Jace is better in so many ways. Fateseal so they have less chance to break lock. Bounce their problemstic dudes. And a finisher, which this deck usually needs.

If you wanna break Stasis symmetry with a creature that's as easily removable as TR go for Vedalken Mastermind. I ran this in mono blue stasis and loved it. If he sticks you just need three mana. BUT! You open yourself to countermagic (FoW) every...single...turn...it was okay in monoU because i ran countermagic myself but in UG I quickly took it out.

spellsyphon
04-10-2012, 07:21 PM
Cloudstone Curio is better then Vedalken Mastermind in my opinion. Play it out turn three, Stasis turn four and drop a land returning a tapped land. This allows an infinate stasis lock and you can still build land count since the bounce is optional. Also, unlike Mastermind, it isnt vulnerable to common place removal AND doesnt leave you vulnerable to an opponent Force-ing stasis every turn.

Vacrix
04-10-2012, 09:37 PM
Yeah I tried Dormant Gomazoa for a few games online. Sometimes it won the game quickly. Othertimes it sat there doing nothing. Ascension is the superior win con there.

I'm currently assembling WUG Turbo Stasis, the same build I mention a few pages back with some tweaks. I'm probably going to try to play a singleton Island Sanctuary. Its dam good with Luminarch Ascension and its way cheaper than Moat in both mana cost and price.

I am curious about Cloudstone Curio though. Is there anything else we might use to further abuse that card? Creature CIP's perhaps? If we can create enough synergy in the deck, I can see it being pretty powerful, especially with access to Exploration to play multiple lands per turn. It would also be nice to have access to that line of play without being limited to Rangers to bounce your lands.

Oiolosse
04-11-2012, 01:22 AM
Thank you for the heads up on Cloudstone Curio. I've always loved the design of that card and it just never occurred to me to use it in Stasis. Now that I play UG Stasis with Rangers/Scrybs I woudn't need it. I don't think I'd be able to abuse it outside of the perk already provided by my manadorks.

@Vactrix -- I haven't tried Island Sanctuary and was curious at first since it does work nicely with Ascension. *Southern Accent*Then I got to thinking that if you were maintaining Stasis via Forsaken City then you'd have no hand in no time. Has this been a problem?

Vacrix
04-11-2012, 01:28 AM
Not if you've played both of them. Its a silver bullet against some decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Maverick which have trouble interacting with you outside of their attack phase and QPM. I certainly wouldn't want it against UR/RUG Delver or Merfolk though.

I'm on it. Gotta find something to break Curio with.. Its potential is worth the exploration.


Also *southern accent go* the name's Vacrix son. You add tha' T again' I'll punch you in the throat!

Lol. My internet redneck accent isn't the greatest.

spellsyphon
04-11-2012, 03:37 PM
Try this, Cloudstone Curio + Exploration + Steppe Lynx or Plated Geopede. Infinate damage. There is also a blue creature with landfall and a tapping effect, but the name escapes me atm.

Oiolosse
04-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Exploration != Fastbond

Gammadoom
04-13-2012, 12:39 PM
I've been heavily testing this deck, mostly goldfishing just so I can practice getting the lock down. Eventually I added protection and started playing around countermagic. My current version can easily play around 1 countermagic if it lays down 2 threats. Often the deck has so much mana now that it laughs at Spell Pierce and Daze if you choose to play around them. Force, Counterspell, and Spell Snare are the bigger players here. Pre-board this version can play around 2 solid counterspells (not including Daze/Pierce) and if you get a great hand, as many as 4. I'm still working on a post-board plan to combat blue, but I'll mention that later as I'm currently trying to fine-tune the preboard.
I missed Luminarch Ascension so I added it back in. The deck simply needs a way to win without Stifle, otherwise you are searching for a 2 card combination that loses to STP/PtE. Its not consistent against some decks. Also, now that I'm running Elephant Grass, sometimes you don't even need an active Stasis down for 4 turns to win. You can Elephant Grass them for a turn, Chant walk them for another, and then Stasis for 2 turns, and start cranking out angels.

On to the list:


WUG Stasis
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Rangers
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Rangers
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Enchantments:
4 Stasis
2 Exploration
2 Elephant Grass
1 Luminarch Ascension

Instants:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Orim's Chant
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Meditate

Land:
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah

Card choices....
I cut a Birds because I found myself drawing way too many manadorks with some hands and nothing to do with them except throw them back with a Brainstorm and a fetch. 6 and 6 has been pretty consistent. 2 Dreadnoughts and 4 Virtual coupled with Stifle leaves me with a turn 2 Dreadnought pretty consistently with mana to pay for Daze. Exploration is still fantastic. Its a great one drop that lets you acceleration into something like 4 lands turn 2, Stasis, dodge Spell Pierce. Fuck yeah. Its also great with either Rangers. In fact, if I only have a rangers out as my Stasis lock source, then I often play my first Etutor for Exploration that way I can bounce a land during my turn, and then one during my opponents turn so I have a solid 2 mana per turn, one to hopefully draw into Chain of Vapor or a BoP/Hierarch. Elephant Grass is tits. It stops them from being too aggressive early on. Either they attack with the dudes they have, or they play more dudes. Either way, their lands are going to be tapped down for most of the time, which is a great lead in to Stasis. Often I can keep the Elephant Grass going for 4 or 5 turns if need be. Sometimes I Chain of Vapor it just to stall a little longer. With enough mana, the deck can even support 2 at a time to prevent them from attacking entirely. I've kept up to for 4 turns at a time in more than one game. In short, run Elephant Grass. I decided to run Orim's Chant over Daze because Daze doesn't really do very much for the deck, honestly. I played at least 100 games with Daze in the deck and every time I drew it I wished it was something else. You don't need to bounce Islands. You already have a much more permanent bouncer in the form of 6 Rangers as well as 4 Forsaken City, which is 10 total sources. I've found that to consistently be enough. Even if you don't have a permanent source, often you can just hold out with 4 or 5 lands with your BoP/Hierarch til you draw either a Quirion Ranger or Chain of Vapor. Further, Chant lets you Chant walk your opponent for an attack phase, or prevent them from casting any more spells, essentially buying you another turn. It obviously functions well as a protection spell, and ups your maindeck storm hate from 4 cards to 7 cards. As for Chain of Vapor, I love the card. It can bounce your opponents fatty to slow them down a full turn sometimes, Goyf, Knight, etc. It can bounce a permanent thats preventing you from comboing, like a Pridemage, and it can bounce either Elephant Grass or Stasis to reset the board on your side. Meditate I'm on the fence about. I think I'm going to keep it in though. Its great for giving you extra steam once you are inside your lock, draw some cards, feed spare lands to City and drop some extra dorks incase they decide to kill one, draw into your win conditions, etc. I've also found it to be pretty good as a setup piece. Sometimes you just shit your entire hand on to the field, like Trop, Exploration, Savannah, Hierarch, Trop, Rangers, Elephant Grass... then Meditate when they can't attack you during their extra turn. That or you can just Chant walk them to essentially deny them the extra turn, but I like Elephant Grass + Meditate much better in the setup part of the game.

So thats the maindeck I'm working on. I'll write up the board later once I have it worked out a little better, but note that 4 Etutor post-board --> 2 Cannonist gives you +6 cards to work with post board, one extra Chant, and a Thorn, so 15 cards total against storm. That should be enough. I'm going to test Choke against control, and a few other cards.

In the mean time though, I need to find a card to search with off Etutor thats great against control, ideally something with Hexproof and/or uncounterability. Any ideas?

I apologize if I missed this earlier in the thread somewhere, but a one-of Instill Energy to tutor for to complete the lock might be worthwhile here.

spellsyphon
04-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Exploration != Fastbond

*faceplant* had my cards confused for some reason. even with that error, exploration and cloudstone curio would allow you to have a full board of untapped lands. I actually have accomplished this without exploration, curio+forsaken city+jace beleran/howling mine.

also, playing multiple lands in a turn is never bad. Could be interesting to add hedron crab in there somewhere.

TiMeWaLk
04-13-2012, 09:44 PM
If you play UG stasis, you might be interested by this:

4 Tropical Island
3 Island
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Tradewind Rider
4 Arbor Elf
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

4 Stasis
4 AEther Vial
3 Chord of Calling

It is a list that I called Wirewood statis, which is a mix between Elfball and Stasis. The Riders are really insane in this deck.

Let me know what you think about it.

Vacrix
04-14-2012, 03:37 AM
Exploration != Fastbond
I almost broke my keyboard I laughed so hard.

Oiolosse
04-15-2012, 06:18 PM
I've never tested Standstill with Stasis. But dropping them in succession seems great. If they will have any chance at breaking through Stasis they will have to give you three cards. IDK. Any thoughts?

Vacrix
04-18-2012, 01:09 AM
Perhaps but I think if you have 1U open you might as well just drop Luminarch Ascension. Because Turbo Stasis has the luxury of speed, you can drop it when they tap out, or make them tap out with Daze or something. Then, they'll have trouble breaking the lock. The most common way it happens is they drop 3 new lands and then QPM to destroy the Stasis. That takes a minimum of 3 turns. Often they are just chilln on 3 lands in hand and need to wait for the QPM itself, or GSZ into QPM which is 4 mana total. Given that, might as well just drop Ascension.

Oiolosse
04-19-2012, 06:17 AM
Agreed. Or play more tap spells instead.

Vacrix
07-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Necro..


Jace's Phantasm seems like it could be a good win condition for this deck. It comes down for a mere U and it seals the game in 4 turns, which is faster than any other win condition we've ever had in Stasis. Under a Stasis lock the graveyard can fill up pretty fast. It could be good in the Turbo Stasis builds. Even if they counter everything you try to play to get the lock, it blocks Delver all day long and you can untap it with Rangers to block. Not to mention Scryb Rangers blocks well against Delver and Snapcaster.


This is the list I'm working with:

UGw Stasis:
Creatures - 12
4 Quirion Rangers
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Jace's Phantasm
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Rangers

Protection - 12
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle

Combo -
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Exploration
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land - 18
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Choke
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Your win conditions are 3 Jace's Phantasm, 1 Garruk. Garruk also functions as a lock piece. Ideally I'd like to find a win condition that can be found off Etutor, meaning you can get to your win condition quickly. The manadorks plan works well to power out Stasis on turn 2. Exploration is great as an early game accelerant but also combos with Rangers to help you hold the Stasis lock. Also, Jace's Phantasm swinging for 6 or 7 from Hierarch triggers means you might be able to kill them in as few as 3 turns.

The protection package does not include Force but the deck can't handle the card disadvantage on top of playing Enlightened Tutor. Spell Pierce when countering a spell on your opponent's turn is very powerful because even if they can pay 2, they are more likely to be tapped out and thats not something you really want to do against Stasis. Manadorks and Exploration help you to play around Spell Pierces and Daze's with spare mana. Daze also bounces Islands to help hold the Stasis lock. Stifle is absolutely necessary due to GSZ and QPM at your Stasis, as well as Wasteland on your Tropical Island or City of Traitors.

Post-board against storm combo and burn you have 2 CB/Top package and Cannonist on top of 4 Enlightened Tutor in the maindeck. Thats 7 maindeck to search for them on top of 12 maindeck protection spells. I'd also board in 3 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts since Stifle is going to be relatively dead against them. That allows us to put on a pretty fast clock which is necessary if you're going to race Storm combo. Granted, Storm combo will probably still be a negative matchup but this deck is geared at beating other decks anyway.

Against Dredge and Reanimator, you have 4 Etutor, 2 Cage, 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Metamorph. Metamorph is also pretty good as something to drop off Show and Tell, though their really isn't much you can do to beat Sneak/Show without more dedicated sideboard hate.

Against blue decks, you get 2 Choke. This deck can easily play around Choke with all the mana dorks so it functions against blue as Stasis 2.0, giving you 4 Stasis and 6 virtual Stasis. Thats a lot to handle when you can play around Spell Pierce and Daze with Dorks and Exploration.

Illissius
08-29-2012, 06:46 PM
How about a build somewhere along these lines? Fair warning: I haven't tested it even a little bit. It might not even work.


4 Stasis
3 Energy Field
2 Counterbalance
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Devastation Tide
3 Cryptic Command
3 Chain of Vapor

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forsaken City

SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Vedalken Clique
SB: 3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Counterbalance


The basic idea is to (1) abuse Devastation Tide (2) play powerful cards that have synergy with Stasis. Having not tested it even a little bit I'm obviously unsure about the exact composition of the deck. I could imagine -1 something in exchange for +1 something else for a variety of values of something and something else. This is just a rough sketch, the sideboard doubly so.

Some elaboration about cards:

Energy Field: A complement to Stasis against aggressive creature decks. Buys time, holds the fort if you don't draw Stasis, not bad either if you do have Stasis, and many of the bounce tricks with Stasis work almost as well with it.

Counterbalance: is powerful. Lets you counter spells under Stasis for little mana. There's no 3cc cards maindeck except for Crucible which is awkward, but I'll take it anyways.

Crucible of Worlds: This is our concession to the fact that with Forsaken City and Tabernacle being the only Wasteland targets, they will be dying a lot. But even if you're just recurring a fetchland every turn that's good.

SDT: (Obviously) finds the things you need, and while you might not want to spin the Top every turn under Stasis to conserve mana, it's crucial for pulling off Devastation Tides during their turn.

Jace: This card was made for Stasis. Unlimited bounce is fantastic, Brainstorm every turn is fantastic, and on top of it all it's an actually-win-the-game mechanism that's not a creature.

Devastation Tide: Bounce all of their stuff (which they don't want bounced) and all of your stuff (which you do want bounced) for only two mana - that sounds like a deal.

Cryptic Command: This card was also made for Stasis. Every single ability is great. Bounce their stuff under Stasis? Okay! Counter their spell? Okay! Bounce Stasis? Okay! Tap all their dudes under Stasis? Okay! Friggin awesome.

Chain of Vapor: Half of the time it'll bounce Stasis for U and possibly also something of theirs in exchange for a land, the other half of the time it'll bounce their stuff for U with nothing on your side for them to profitably chain it back against. Solid.

Forsaken City: I was thinking about cutting this entirely on the logic that it'll just bite it to Wasteland almost literally all of the time, but it's probably too important. So maybe there should be 4. I dunno.

Teferi: should be a nice surprise against control decks after they board out removal.


Cards not included for a reason:

Daze: If you're not under a Stasis it seems bad. You would use it to buy time, but you would use the time to build up your mana base which it sets you back in. I would rather have Force Spike or Chain of Vapor. Under a Stasis it's nice, but doesn't seem impressive enough to justify slots.

Batterskull, Morphling: Winning with Jace seems preferable for a number of reasons. Jace does other very useful things, their removal stays fully dead, you get to play tricks on them with creatures in the sideboard, and space is tight.

Ancestral Vision: is slow and circumstantial.


Cards not included for no reason:

Frozen Aether
Capsize
Propaganda
Thwart
Gigadrowse
Counterspell

These cards look like they might be helpful, but what would you cut?


Having not tested it even a little bit I have no idea whether this deck would even work, and even less what its matchups would be like. I can think of reasons for it to do either badly or well against almost any archetype. Maybe you lose against aggro because you're too slow, or because lacking a real hard lock (like Capsize, Frozen Aether, etc.) you can't stop them from getting in for the last few points. Maybe you lose against control because you don't have as many counterspells. Maybe you lose against combo because you have no clock. Maybe you beat aggro because you just keep Tiding and Jacing their whole board until you can lock them under a Stasis long enough. Maybe you beat control because they have lots of dead removal and you don't. Maybe you beat combo because you're a blue deck with Force of Will and Counterbalance. About the only matchup I can say anything about with certainty is High Tide, which you lose to for obvious reasons. (Has anyone tried hybridizing Stasis with High Tide?)

Anyways, I don't play Magic any more (like I ever did). I'm throwing this out there in case it looks interesting to anyone.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-18-2013, 09:43 AM
Another Necro...


The protection package does not include Force but the deck can't handle the card disadvantage on top of playing Enlightened Tutor. Spell Pierce when countering a spell on your opponent's turn is very powerful because even if they can pay 2, they are more likely to be tapped out and thats not something you really want to do against Stasis. Manadorks and Exploration help you to play around Spell Pierces and Daze's with spare mana. Daze also bounces Islands to help hold the Stasis lock. Stifle is absolutely necessary due to GSZ and QPM at your Stasis, as well as Wasteland on your Tropical Island or City of Traitors.

Interesting to see you expanded your protection package. I think you can expand it even further, I rarely have problems dropping stasis with my sustain package but I do play FoW over Spell pierce because mana is more valuable for me then cards (I usually trade one card to free up mana via FS). I use 2 Thwart as daze 5-6, it works well for me.


Your win conditions are 3 Jace's Phantasm, 1 Garruk. Garruk also functions as a lock piece.

I still think Garruk is win more. 4 mana is just way too much imho. If you can free 4 mana under stasis you should have won by now playing a win condition. If you can wait for 4 mana before dropping the stasis, you shouldn't have a problem sustaining it without him, and serra avenger would have killed quicker.

Maybe someone should try SFM with stasis, it might be a good call.

lost_ronin_soul
04-18-2013, 12:10 PM
Ral zarek + stasis seems like auto win for you guys...

Poron
04-18-2013, 02:33 PM
Ral zarek + stasis seems like auto win for you guys...

Jace + Ral, give this deck a better chance, but it still doesn't go anywhere..

legacy is a 2 card combo format. (Show and Tell + anything, Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience, Metalworker + Staff of Domination, etc.)

I still feel Stasis is a tier 3, at best. And I'm a Stasis lover

lost_ronin_soul
04-18-2013, 03:42 PM
Jace + Ral, give this deck a better chance, but it still doesn't go anywhere..

legacy is a 2 card combo format. (Show and Tell + anything, Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience, Metalworker + Staff of Domination, etc.)

I still feel Stasis is a tier 3, at best. And I'm a Stasis lover

Running spell pierce, flusterstorms, and mindbreak trap would be a helping hand against all sorts of combo decks. With a white splash you have access to rest in peace combo which you can use mist of stagnation to act like another stasis... With red splash for Ral-walker it gives access to mass artifact removal (take your pick) for mudd decks, you can run pierce and izzet charm for enchantress. You have access to lightning bolt and pyroclasm for agro, and red elemental blast against show and tell. Might help pull the deck out of tier 3

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-22-2013, 06:48 AM
@lost_ronin_soul: Ral Zarek looks good but 4 cc is way too much. Same with Mist of Stagnation.

@Poron: That's why I play Stasis as 2 card combo as well. Stasis+FS/Ranger.
Try my list at post #117 (the SB is suboptimal and I didn't test Jace's Phantasm, could be superior to Avenger). It's not that bad.

Julian23
04-22-2013, 07:39 AM
Did any of you place Stasis at GP Straßbourg? During about round 7 I saw a 50-years old Frenchman playing Stasis against my friend on the very low tables. When he won game1 he shouted "Stasis is NOT dead!" - made my day :laugh:

bruizar
04-22-2013, 07:41 AM
Ral Zarek sucks in stasis, I tried. My next test subject is Hidden Strings.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-22-2013, 08:02 AM
Ral Zarek sucks in stasis, I tried. My next test subject is Hidden Strings.

I'd be interested in your findings. What's your list?

bruizar
04-22-2013, 08:10 AM
I tried a general counterbalance shell and basically replaced the CB lock with stasis, and also played both CB and Stasis, and added 3 Ral Zareks next to my Jaces, just to get a feel of the card. The problem is that Stasis before Ral Zarek makes it impossible for you to resolve Ral Zarek because you are under your own Stasis lock. If you're resolving Stasis after dropping Ral Zarek you are looking at a turn 5 kill. You can speed that up with Ancient Tombs but that makes Stasis harder to keep up. I didn't spend a great deal of time with it, but it felt really convoluted.

I'd rather try an UG or Bant list with Stasis, Hidden Strings, Tarmogoyf and Scryb Ranger-type creatures that uses Stasis as a complement instead of the main component of the deck.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-22-2013, 08:32 AM
I tried a general counterbalance shell and basically replaced the CB lock with stasis, and also played both CB and Stasis, and added 3 Ral Zareks next to my Jaces, just to get a feel of the card. The problem is that Stasis before Ral Zarek makes it impossible for you to resolve Ral Zarek because you are under your own Stasis lock. If you're resolving Stasis after dropping Ral Zarek you are looking at a turn 5 kill. You can speed that up with Ancient Tombs but that makes Stasis harder to keep up. I didn't spend a great deal of time with it, but it felt really convoluted.

Your Ral Zarek find does not surprise me. I had similar results with other 3 and 4 cc cards and I came to the conclusion that they don't have a place in stasis no matter how good their effects are.


I'd rather try an UG or Bant list with Stasis, Hidden Strings, Tarmogoyf and Scryb Ranger-type creatures that uses Stasis as a complement instead of the main component of the deck.

Hidden Strings could enable this. But it will be kind of tough to get your creatures running while sustaining the stasis and given the removal around in legacy Hidden Strings could mean carddisadvantage.

Maybe you should try SFM+Batterskull.

Noble Hierarch seems to be a good reason for going Bant :)

bruizar
04-22-2013, 09:07 AM
Your Ral Zarek find does not surprise me. I had similar results with other 3 and 4 cc cards and I came to the conclusion that they don't have a place in stasis no matter how good their effects are.



Hidden Strings could enable this. But it will be kind of tough to get your creatures running while sustaining the stasis and given the removal around in legacy Hidden Strings could mean carddisadvantage.

Maybe you should try SFM+Batterskull.

Noble Hierarch seems to be a good reason for going Bant :)

Hidden String could untap an island and a creature every turn to sustain the upkeep of stasis and output damage. It would be best to put it on something with hexproof, like geist of saint traft. Stoneforge Mystic alongside Batterskull seems like a great way to capitalize on Stasis, even if you don't lock out your opponent completely. Noble hierarch's exalted triggers help in closing the game even if you can't untap them.

Mortox
04-22-2013, 09:50 AM
Hidden String could untap an island and a creature every turn to sustain the upkeep of stasis and output damage. It would be best to put it on something with hexproof, like geist of saint traft. Stoneforge Mystic alongside Batterskull seems like a great way to capitalize on Stasis, even if you don't lock out your opponent completely. Noble hierarch's exalted triggers help in closing the game even if you can't untap them.

Exactly what I was thinking regarding the Hexproof if you're running Hidden Strings, maybe even something as crazy as Invisible Stalker (1U 1/1 hexproof/unblockable) for guaranteed cipher triggers, I mean the only things even played in Legacy that really deal with unblockable/hexproof are either Terminus or Liliana so it would really limit their options; combined with Stoneforge/Equipment as you mentioned and you have a pretty sick package once Stasis is down. Might be a bit convoluted though...

nedleeds
04-22-2013, 12:48 PM
Pretty sure Scryb Ranger is the reason to go Bant.

nedleeds
04-22-2013, 12:51 PM
How about a build somewhere along these lines? Fair warning: I haven't tested it even a little bit. It might not even work.

<snip list without Ensnare>

Ensnare is the only unconditional (cost and doesn't target; you only need priority) Island returner in legacy (with Gush banned) ... in addition it defeats men and doesn't target. I think any Stasis list has to start with 4 x stasis and 4 x ensnares.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-22-2013, 02:56 PM
Nope, it isn't.

Treva's Ruins

It's a little more effective regarding Thwart and has uses before you lay down Stasis (allows for tricks when playing FS, those things happen). I found it to be the superior choice.

nedleeds
04-22-2013, 03:53 PM
Sweet. Well the people in my country play Wasteland, and I hear Island is good for making U.

Poron
04-23-2013, 06:24 AM
Hidden Strings is sweet here, and broken in multiples, it definitly deserves it's spot in a creature-based stasis...

the point is: we go UG for fastness or we count or reliability and focus on U?

Hidden Strings, imho, definitly needs Silhana Ledgewalker or Invisible Stalker

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-23-2013, 09:04 AM
Sweet. Well the people in my country play Wasteland, and I hear Island is good for making U.

No need to become rude just because I proved you wrong. Trevar's Ruins is a good find. Wasteland definitely is an issue but I found no way to consistently support Stasis without making my mana base vulnerable to it (Forsaken City and Tropical Islands usually are the main targets). So I rather plan redundancies.


Hidden Strings is sweet here, and broken in multiples, it definitly deserves it's spot in a creature-based stasis...

the point is: we go UG for fastness or we count or reliability and focus on U?

Hidden Strings, imho, definitly needs Silhana Ledgewalker or Invisible Stalker

Sadly I have too much other stuff that needs tending so I cannot test Hidden Strings atm. My intuition tells me Hidden Strings is the third best option after Forsaken City and Quirion Ranger because:
- you need 2 cards to make it work
- it costs 2 mana
- it trades 2 for 1 if your opponent manages to remove the creature (placing it on Stalker/Ledgewalker won't work consistently when under pressure)

But only testing will show.

About U vs GU:
If Hidden Strings works really well mono U might work. I think you'll still need Forsaken City though so there is not much benefit in staying mono U (-> Wastelands will be used on Forsaken City). In my testings splashing green for Quirion Ranger, Noble Hierarch and white for Enlightened Tutor gave the deck a lot of consistency, so I still think it's the way to go.

Poron
04-23-2013, 09:47 AM
Sorry but what is FS for?

Forsaken City?

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-23-2013, 09:55 AM
Yes, I picked it up in another, older Stasis threat. Bad habit, fixed my post.

nedleeds
04-23-2013, 10:07 AM
No need to become rude just because I proved you wrong. Trevar's Ruins is a good find. Wasteland definitely is an issue but I found no way to consistently support Stasis without making my mana base vulnerable to it (Forsaken City and Tropical Islands usually are the main targets). So I rather plan redundancies.

re: Tropical Island ... I hear Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger both have abilities ...

re: Treva's Ruin ... great find.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-23-2013, 10:21 AM
re: Tropical Island ... I hear Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger both have abilities ...

Yes, the Rangers can save the Tropical Island but they can't save the open U you need during your upkeep. Exploration helps a lot here btw because it allows for freeing up more mana (in addition to Forsaken City). Chain of Vapor does help too, maybe I should give it another shot.

Canarias4life
04-24-2013, 02:07 PM
Hi! I'm interested in playing stasis but I don't know what version I can play. ( U, Ug, Uw, Uwg) I prefer to play it without creatures because If we play creatures all the removal will be directed to them.

Some time ago I was trying to play this deck:
4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Spell pierce
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Jace Beleren
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Tel-Jilad Stylus
3 Gigadrowse
4 Forsaken City
4 Flooded Strand
15 Island

I was playing too, a version with tezzeret the seeker + seat of the synod

I see a fail in this deck list, I rely heavily on stasis and if stasis isn't in my hand with chain of vapor or tel- jilad stylus I will have problems. So I can play a deck list which play more control, maybe with propaganda or something similar that stop agro if stasis isn't in play.

sderenatore
04-24-2013, 05:27 PM
This is my decklist, try it. I guarantee it works even though it is still not optimal.
I feel I want to re-style the counter package and cut the Birds, but as for now it is a good starting point.
Stasis + Explore is the engine of the deck: if you want to try this route that are the basics, so I don't suggest to cut either of them. Also Ports and Garruk play a fundamental role.
Also its incredibly fun to play!

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Daze
4 Stasis
4 Exploration
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Treva's Ruins
4 Island
2 Forest
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Rishadan Port
3 Spell Pierce

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-24-2013, 09:56 PM
@Canarias:
I honestly don't think creatureless Stasis is possible without Gush. Or at least not on a near Legacy-competative level. You are missing one of the most powerful sustain options for Stasis and have to rely on slow win conditions.

@sderenatore:
Most of my options are similar, but some different. You are closer to Vacrix' list which runs more acceleration and a little less protection. Did you test against a DTB?

I am currently thinking about writing a primer, maybe someone is willing to help? Some walls of text about card choices are floating in my head. I'll write some things down, please forgive any typos, don't have a checker atm (will edit later).

Introduction

Why play Stasis?

(because it's a classic or to annoy the opponent :tongue:)

Think Stasis:

(content about the one card=one mana rule of Forsaken City)

Card Choices

The Musts:

Stasis: The card this deck is build around. Why this card works is simple: Most Legacy decks need their mana every turn to function and it locks creatures down every control deck's wet dream if there was not the drawback of upkeep.

Enlightened Tutor: Simply playing 4 Stasis is not enough. Stasis is the card we build our strategy around and we want it every game, every time. To give some probabilities: Seeing one card of 4, when drawing 10 cards is roughly 50%, while one out of 8 is 80%. I think we need the 80% :)

Forsaken City: When this card came up Stasis players rejoyced. It trades 1 card for 1 mana so it can sustain Stasis indefinitely. Only problem: you need more tricks to keep your hand size up and it's vulnerable to Wasteland. An auto 4 of and first choice to sustain Stasis.

Quirion Ranger, Scrib Ranger: Another way of sustaining Stasis with just one card. And they untap attackers or mana dorks - double good. Only downside: You have no way of freeing up more mana without any help of mana dorks, Forsaken City or Exploration. 4 Quirion Ranger supporting Forsaken City make the very most effective sustain package for up-keeping Stasis. Some lists will want Scrib Rangers on top.

Daze: Under Stasis Daze is 0cc counter target spell, draw a card. Auto 4 of.

Thwart: Counter target spell, draw 3 cards. It does not always work though because you require 3 Islands in play. Still 2-3 Thwart is a must.

Stife: A necessity in the protection package because of Wastelands targeting our Forsaken Cities and Qasali Pridemages targeting our Stasis. Also good for denying opponents mana under softlock and hits the devastating SFM.


The goods:

Exploration: A good card because we sometimes cannot find a Forsaken City to complement our Ranger and accelerates our starts. Exploration allows for freeing up mana under Ranger sustained Stasis. 4 is probably too much because we need only one in play, 2-3 really help with consistency.

(needs content: spell pierce, FoW, scryb ranger, mana dorks, lair lands, ensnare, phyrexian dreadnought etc.)

Win Conditions:

(needs content, mainly serra avenger vs jace's phantasm testing, need to know how many rangers phantasm needs)

The Bads:

Garruk, Ral Zarek, Tezzeret, Kismet, Frozen Aether and other cards costing 3 or 4 mana: Since you more often then not will have to drop Stasis turn 3 you will have to free the mana under softlock. By the time you can free 4 mana you really should have won or played an effective win condition (like Serra Avenger).

Root Maze: While this card sounds great for building a hard lock it really isn't. First you don't want to bring your Forsaken City tapped, and more importantly it shots down all cheap ways to sustain Stasis besides Forsaken City, which alone is not enough to consistently win (he will just leave a wasteland open to destroy you). It's probably easier to find a way to consistently tap your opponent under Winter Orb under this card then to find a way to sustain your Stasis. Orb of Dreams is even worse.

Rishadan Port: Under Stasis Port equals Twiddle, but Twiddle doesn't require a land drop, has more targets and can be pitched for FoW.


Lists:

My current list:


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
3 [US] Exploration
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor



Vacrix' list:


Creatures - 12
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Jace's Phantasm
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Ranger

Protection - 12
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle

Combo -
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Exploration
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land - 18
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought



What do you think? If something comes off as arrogant or badly worded please tell me, I'm not a native English speaker.

Oiolosse
04-24-2013, 10:29 PM
You guys are relying way too much on stasis. Think lockdown. Not just Stasis. Garruk is sick in UG, without question. Maybe you think four is too much because you don't run as many mana dorks?

No one else runs GSZ? Can run less untappers, access to KotR, access to Huntmaster.

Rishadan Port + Winter Orb is nasty, esp with Garruk.

No one runs Tangle Wire?

I'll post my list later when I'm not thumbing on my ipad in the loo.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-25-2013, 10:06 AM
You guys are relying way too much on stasis. Think lockdown. Not just Stasis. Garruk is sick in UG, without question. Maybe you think four is too much because you don't run as many mana dorks?

I think 4 mana is too much because I want to drop stasis turn 3 vs Goblins and other fast aggro decks. Now if I draw into Garruk while stasis stands I will have to free up 4 mana. If I can do it, I don't need his untap ability and wish it was a Serra Avenger because that one kills faster (except if there's a delver).

Port+Winterorb is a different engine that has it's own pro's and cons. I don't think Winterorb works well in legacy because there are so many devastating one drops and it does not handle the creatures already on the board.

Do you have a MU analysis?

Mantis
04-25-2013, 11:14 AM
Thats exactly what Oiolosse will be able to do. Play a mana dork then play Garruk on turn 3, untap 2 lands and play Stasis or Tangle Wire still on turn 3...

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-25-2013, 03:21 PM
Well, you need 5 mana to pull this off (because you need a way to pay for stasis next turn) and even then did not plan redundancies in case of spot removal for your open dork or wasteland on your open land.

Scenario A: You got 3 lands+2dorks+Garruk+Stasis=7 cards needed, and you were lucky to draw into 2 or 3 protection cards. If he wastes your open land or StoPs your open mana dork its still gg. But you can defend.

Scenario B: Your didn't draw the rainbow kittens, you got what you need but you had to tutor/mull, one card is redundant (just anything that does not help in this situation) so you're left with one protection card. Your opponent has a good legacy deck, you are facing a flipped delver, a 4/5 tarmogoyf and one of your dorks ate spot removal. You couldn't use your protection because you suspect a spell pierce/snare/daze in his hand. You're at 10 and need to drop stasis now or fall into bolt range. Now Garruk totally needs to be something else.

If you did have to play stasis into the blue (e.g. after hymn, e.tutor in response, hymn ate your sustain plan) garruk is a terrible top deck. He only really works if your opponent doesn't disrupt you and you draw a set of almost perfect cards. But most decks disrupt really well. If you test against DTB it's scenario B way more often then you wish.

bruizar
04-25-2013, 06:36 PM
planeswalkers are late game bombs, not early game bombs. You don't have to win with your first stasis. I would focus on getting to the late game, then resolve your game ending card.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-26-2013, 07:51 AM
If you want a game ending card, Serra Avenger is the superior option. He kills quicker for 2cc. If you have enough rangers to support Jace's Phantasm that's an even better option. There really isn't anything Garruk can do, that other cards can't do better for less mana. Cutting Garruk will increase your deck's consistency.

sderenatore
04-26-2013, 08:55 AM
If you want a game ending card, Serra Avenger is the superior option. He kills quicker for 2cc. If you have enough rangers to support Jace's Phantasm that's an even better option. There really isn't anything Garruk can do, that other cards can't do better for less mana. Cutting Garruk will increase your deck's consistency.
Have you tested Garruk (particularly), Serra Avenger or Jace's Phantasm? Have you tested against any DTB or any mid-common deck?
Sorry but that sounds to me more like opininions and not actual experience. I played Garruk a lot and i have to say I like him, maybe I have just a different approach to the deck.
By the way I swapped white for black. I focused more on winning with stasis as the final weapon than stasis as the first lock piece. Also i found out black gives superior answers to common problems the deck has (like early cheap threats or counterbalance) and awesome card advantage, which is really needed under stasis.

Also i added Standstill: I noticed that one big problem is Pyroblast ( Red Elemental Blast), and i really want to be able to protect stasis (or planeswalkers) once it's on the field, drawing 3 cards could be a fair solution. Still needs testing though.

Here's the list so far:

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Daze
4 Stasis
3 Exploration
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Spell Pierce
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Dark Confidant
1 Bayou
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Standstill
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte

Zalren
04-26-2013, 09:45 AM
I never take my Stasis deck to a tournament but I like to play one casually. I do not like creatures but I do not like relying solely on Stasis either. I only own 1 set of Force of Will and it is in another deck. But you could put them in here. As you can see from my list below, I tend to run multiple combos which all can be tutored for.


Lands - 24
4 Forsaken City
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
12 Island

Enchantments - 16
4 Equipoise
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Stasis

Instants - 16
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Ensnare
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thwart

Artifacts - 4
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
2 Helm of Obedience

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-26-2013, 01:05 PM
Have you tested Garruk (particularly), Serra Avenger or Jace's Phantasm? Have you tested against any DTB or any mid-common deck?
Sorry but that sounds to me more like opininions and not actual experience. I played Garruk a lot and i have to say I like him, maybe I have just a different approach to the deck.

Last time I tested this deck was about a year ago, no Phantasm back then (already stated that I didn't test it, but if it works with 6 rangers the card would be great from my play experience). Serra Avenger was my main win condition but I could occasionally win with a ranger+exalted trigger (took awfully long but worked as emergency out). I did not test Garruk because form my play experience I either can't get 4 mana open or I'd rather cast a faster win condition.

I did an extended series of tests against a friend (Zoo, Canadian Thresh), a larger session against a goblin player on MWS and countless hours against random decks on MWS.

From my play style I can mostly see where the game is going when looking at the board after I dropped my Stasis. There are the games where it just wouldn't work - I usually lost (over generalization, sometimes I won by creature war but it's very unfavorable). Then there where games where I could pull off stasis perfectly, enough free mana, some protection, City+Ranger to sustain. That's where I could have played Garruk but those games were mostly won already. But most games were really close, me clinging to one card while sustaining with city and nothing else or me clinging to one mana, unable to free more because I had to stifle a pridemage or I couldn't find a dork and he wasted open lands waiting for city or exploration.
I often had problems freeing the 2 for Avenger win because he let me sit on my dazes or I only had one dork to free more mana with rangers but had to stifle so I cannot imagine how to free 4.

In the games my opponent actually gave me a tough time and I had my hands full fighting them off (what worked for me more often then not) I rarely could free 4 mana (like I said, in my testings I often had trouble freeing 2 for Avenger!). Most opponents who know how to play against stasis will keep their goyfs untapped for an alpha strike so Garruk will take ages to kill the opponent. That's why I say he's a bad card choice. If you want we can do a friendly testing on MWS, if he really is that good I'd be gladly convinced (just PM me, I'm at GMT+1 btw). But I somehow doubt it.

I doubt Bob will work for you, especially with those ouchy cards. He will just wait for you to kill yourself. Standstill probably won't help much in protecting Stasis if the only protection cards you can draw into are 4 daze.

bruizar
04-26-2013, 01:51 PM
A singleton Reset and some Snapcasters could help sustain Stasis for longer periods of time. You'd have to wait until Turn 4 to drop Stasis, and then cast reset in your opponents turn to sustain Stasis for 4 turn + 1 turn for every island you draw in those turns. Hopefully, you draw into another Stasis and you can keep the game locked down long enough to accelerate to the end game, where you can drop Ral Zarek, Hidden Strings, Garruk or Scryb Ranger for a win.

sderenatore
04-26-2013, 05:31 PM
Last time I tested this deck was about a year ago.

tests against a friend (Zoo, Canadian Thresh), a larger session against a goblin player on MWS.

I often had problems freeing the 2 for Avenger win because he let me sit on my dazes or I only had one dork to free more mana with rangers but had to stifle so I cannot imagine how to free 4.

I doubt Bob will work for you, especially with those ouchy cards. He will just wait for you to kill yourself. Standstill probably won't help much in protecting Stasis if the only protection cards you can draw into are 4 daze.
Ok I see your point, but my deck it's deeply different from any version I've seen in this thread not just because it splashes black but:
1) I have more lands (24) and a pretty low mana curve --> Bob
2) I draw more --> more land drops
3) I can deal with problematic permanents and therefore I can take more time to set up my stasis
4) I usually plan to drop stasis in the late game, as a final bomb. This is how i usually play Garruk or Jace.
5) I focused on card advantage (I don't use FoW, Treva's Ruin)

I don't mean my deck is better of course, also because it's far from being complete, but I think this idea could work as well as yours (if not better, especially in the actual meta --> of course my expectations are biased by my ego as a deckbuilder ahah).

talking about meta, I think you are dubious cause you tested the deck a LOT of time ago. For example I didn't find to have Stifle as crucial as it was due to Qasali Pridemage.
About play-style I don't want to focus on a combo-esque strategy (example: stasis + bounce), but I prefer Stasis as a straight hard lock-piece and to save space for more versatile and useful cards like Abrupt Decay.

..GMT+1.. Are you a European fellow my friend? I might be GMT+2 but I have to check for it (I am italian by the way).

Canarias4life
04-26-2013, 08:15 PM
Now I'm trying this deck list. It is more a control deck and less dependent on stasis.

// Spells
3 Stasis
4 Energy Field
2 Impulse
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Devastation Tide
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus

// Lands

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Forsaken City
2 Tundra

I have seen Bob in this deck list and I think its interesting because it allows quickly get lands or whatever we want, and with sensei's divining top it's eassier

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-26-2013, 08:58 PM
Ok, just did some random testing on MWS. Here's what I found:
- I definitely need cantrips. I probably can cut some choices down a little if I have some form of card quality. I'll test Ponder first, but Brainstorm is a good candidate to (as always), maybe mirri's guile or even sylvan library might work too.[edit]Ponder helped this deck a lot. I'm thinking Brainstorm atm because of 9 shuffle effects. But Ponder is stronger post Stasis and sees more cards.
- I hate Abrupt Decay. I'm thinking about -4 FoW +4 Misdirection. Misdirection helps vs Hymn too.[edit]Did the 2/2 split for now. I think some Misdirection are necessary MD vs random decays.
- Jace's Phantasm was 1/1 most of the time. Maybe I did not hit the right deck yet but it was too slow for my taste.
- 2 Thwart is the absolute golden number!


Newer list, SB mostly stolen from Vacrix.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [B] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
2 [US] Exploration
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [MM] Misdirection
2 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 [OD] Divert

nudon
04-26-2013, 09:02 PM
I've been testing with the following deck to some success. GSZ (for arbor/ranger) and enlightened tutor (for stasis/exploration/crucible) gives the deck a lot of consistency. There's also a ton of counter backup to protect the combo. T2 hidden strings is an absolute house by tapping down your opponent's creatures to let your mana dork swing through (untapping your lands for stasis). A ranger in hand in addition would probably mean gg. I think silhana ledgewalker is too slow and not necessary with all the counter backup. The sideboard is a work in progress but promising with all the tutor capability. EoT brainstorm into e-tutor on upkeep is pretty nuts as usual. Ranger + arbor = pseudo maze of ith. All of the fetches can find arbor. Stifle is necessary to protect against wasteland and results in free wins on their fetches. I'm pretty happy with this list right now. Hidden strings locks your opponent out pretty fast.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Exploration
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Absolute Law
2 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-27-2013, 08:28 AM
@sdenatore and Nudon: did you test vs Jund? I think Jund is a good benchmark for how resilient your list is because they pack a lot of hate. I did go 1-0-2, 1-0-2, 2-0-1 yesterday on MWS, all but one game were really close. I think I can hit 40% but just 3 games is not enough to really tell.

Poron
04-27-2013, 08:30 PM
I've been testing with the following deck to some success. GSZ (for arbor/ranger) and enlightened tutor (for stasis/exploration/crucible) gives the deck a lot of consistency. There's also a ton of counter backup to protect the combo. T2 hidden strings is an absolute house by tapping down your opponent's creatures to let your mana dork swing through (untapping your lands for stasis). A ranger in hand in addition would probably mean gg. I think silhana ledgewalker is too slow and not necessary with all the counter backup. The sideboard is a work in progress but promising with all the tutor capability. EoT brainstorm into e-tutor on upkeep is pretty nuts as usual. Ranger + arbor = pseudo maze of ith. All of the fetches can find arbor. Stifle is necessary to protect against wasteland and results in free wins on their fetches. I'm pretty happy with this list right now. Hidden strings locks your opponent out pretty fast.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Exploration
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Absolute Law
2 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce

almost perfect to me, but i'd rather play 2-3x Exploration.

it just solves too many problems to be a casual singleton or a silver bullet trough tutor.
multiple Rangers, Ranger + Dryad eot, Crucible of Worlds..
I would also consider a Knight of the Reliquary somewhere (we run GSZ)...

also, 1x Frozen Aether

sderenatore
04-27-2013, 08:52 PM
hello hello, I tested a lot especially against delver decks, mid-range decks (ex: jund), Sneak attack and some Death & taxes or similar. I tried to rearrange the main board in favor of a less stasis reliable mechanics, therefore i took out Garruks, Jaces and Bobs.

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoic Angel
2 Scryb Ranger

4 Stasis
2 Exploration

3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast

Stoic Angel is there in place of Serra Avenger cause it survives to Bolt and keeps swarms of critters in check.
As for now the deck is really strong against any fair deck, really.
Show and tell and combo are pretty even but it is still weak to Delver based decks.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-29-2013, 09:57 AM
Interesting, I think you just took a big step into the direction of the bant lists :smile:

Stoic Angel is a good find! 4cc is a lot though, I think I'll stick to Serra Avenger (since Stasis handles swarms for me). Is decay really worth splashing black? I think most cards decay handles can be handled by Stasis or a counterspell just as well.
You really should test vs Jund, it has all the stuff we need to defend against while having a decent clock (so fast-Stasis is a good thing vs Jund, it tests both tempo and resiliency).

@Nudon: I don't really get how Hidden Strings work in your deck. Can't Delver/Deathrite Shaman/Goose can block your cyphered creatures all day long? GSZ is definitely a card worth considering but I would search for Quirion Ranger all the time, so I'd rather play another Scryb Ranger. The Dryad Arbor is an option though (that works well with GSZ).

@Poron: I agree, 2 exploration is really good. 3 might be too much since you really don't want to draw into 2 of them. Plus Ponder & E.Tutor helps finding one.

Poron
04-29-2013, 11:43 AM
Abrupt Decay with Noble Hierarch doesn't make sense to me.

play Bird of Paradise instead of NH then.. (well you lose the exalted thing, which is big, but you're not playing Hidden Strings, so...)

Also, a Sword instead of Jitte (to swing with BoP is just that much better)

nudon
04-29-2013, 01:14 PM
almost perfect to me, but i'd rather play 2-3x Exploration.

it just solves too many problems to be a casual singleton or a silver bullet trough tutor.
multiple Rangers, Ranger + Dryad eot, Crucible of Worlds..
I would also consider a Knight of the Reliquary somewhere (we run GSZ)...

also, 1x Frozen Aether

Thanks Poron, I definitely agree with you that hidden strings is the way to go. It's just so easy... After more testing, stifle is a bit too reactive for my taste and is far worse on the draw so I took it out to make room for your recommendations: -4 stifle, +2 ponder, +1 exploration, +1 frozen aether (hidden strings #5-9). I'm on the fence regarding KotR (beater + tutor for forsaken city) since most of the time I'd rather just get arbor or ranger. There are occasions where I'll want noble hierarch too but usually ranger will be better than KotR.


Interesting, I think you just took a big step into the direction of the bant lists :smile:

Stoic Angel is a good find! 4cc is a lot though, I think I'll stick to Serra Avenger (since Stasis handles swarms for me). Is decay really worth splashing black? I think most cards decay handles can be handled by Stasis or a counterspell just as well.
You really should test vs Jund, it has all the stuff we need to defend against while having a decent clock (so fast-Stasis is a good thing vs Jund, it tests both tempo and resiliency).

@Nudon: I don't really get how Hidden Strings work in your deck. Can't Delver/Deathrite Shaman/Goose can block your cyphered creatures all day long? GSZ is definitely a card worth considering but I would search for Quirion Ranger all the time, so I'd rather play another Scryb Ranger. The Dryad Arbor is an option though (that works well with GSZ).

@Poron: I agree, 2 exploration is really good. 3 might be too much since you really don't want to draw into 2 of them. Plus Ponder & E.Tutor helps finding one.

No offense but I think stoic angel is miles slower than hidden strings. No, their goyfs, delvers, etc can't block because you can do this:

T1: noble hierarch / fetch->trop->gsz->arbor
T2: tap 1 land + mana dork->hidden strings->tap their creature down + untap mana dork, swing in mana dork, cipher triggers, untap your mana dork + 1 land, play stasis, play a fetch and maybe ranger (to protect yourself from wasteland and untap hierarch on unkeep), GG with counter backup

Scryb ranger costs 2 mana, gsz for quirion ranger costs 2 mana but gives you flexibility to find t1 arbor (and silver bullets from sb) so I'm not sure how this is worse. You don't have flying or protection from blue but who cares when you can lock them out with hidden strings anyways.

Also, I see you're not running 4x brainstorm, which is like cardinal sin #1 in legacy.

SpoCk0nd0pe
04-29-2013, 01:38 PM
My Hidden Strings question was more about newly dropped creatures (their turn -> land and shaman). Can you handle them with counterspells? I'm just wondering because I usually lack the counterspells to handle creatures (I usually just let them happen, they don't hurt under Stasis).

I decided to play Ponder over Brainstorm because I figured Ponder would help me more in tight spots (because it sees more cards and does not depend on shuffle effects). I didn't test it extensively and as I said, I'm not sure if Ponder>Brainstorm for my list.

The comment about GSZ was related to my current list (where it really isn't useful). I can see the use of it in yours.

nudon
04-29-2013, 01:47 PM
My Hidden Strings question was more about newly dropped creatures (their turn -> land and shaman). Can you handle them with counterspells? I'm just wondering because I usually lack the counterspells to handle creatures (I usually just let them happen, they don't hurt under Stasis).

I decided to play Ponder over Brainstorm because I figured Ponder would help me more in tight spots (because it sees more cards and does not depend on shuffle effects). I didn't test it extensively and as I said, I'm not sure if Ponder>Brainstorm for my list.

The comment about GSZ was related to my current list (where it really isn't useful). I can see the use of it in yours.

My post said it's GG with counter backup (4x daze, 4x FoW). Yes, they can play land and drop another DRS. However, they have no way of untapping their permanents while you have 8 rangers + 4 forsaken city. Also, an e-tutor->frozen aether (nice suggestion by Poron) or second hidden strings (6 cantrips in the deck) should seal the game.

nudon
04-30-2013, 12:30 PM
After some more testing, here's my updated list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Exploration
1 Frozen Aether
4 Forsaken City
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tundra

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 2 Spell Pierce

With frozen aether, I rarely found myself tutoring for crucible since 1 mana more led to a hard lock. I also went back to 1 exploration since there are only 18 lands in the deck and the card disadvantage is tough to take with 4 e-tutors and 4 FoWs already. Furthermore, its true power is with ranger online. If I stick ranger with stasis, I should be well ahead anyways that I can comfortably dig/tutor for exploration if needed. For the mana base, I took the basic forest out for another fetch. This is because I'll almost always fetch for tropical island. Adding the full play-set of ponders really helps smooth out draws as well as allowing me to dig for ranger/hidden strings/exploration/forsaken city/frozen aether.

Poron
05-02-2013, 03:59 AM
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Tutors
4 Zenith

isn't this even too much? I'm afraid we have more tools than substance here.. that's a common mistake.
BTW seen the 4 Zenith I would add a Silhana Ledgewalker. It can help getting rid of locked situations through Hidden Strings (or another cheap and good flier)

Poron
05-02-2013, 04:06 AM
Also, this deck is all about lands and creatures. Wouldn't we consider Living Wish instead of some Ponder/Zenith?

Or better, seen that we just tutor 1cc creatures... Living Wish looks strictly superior to Zenith, opening to Land tutoring too

My thoughts:
-1 Ponder
-1 Zenith
-1 Anything
+3 Living Wish

-1 Quirion Ranger (MD)
+1 Scryb Ranger

+1 Quirion Ranger (SB)
+1 Mana Dork (Bop) (SB)

(Consider also how much a Living Wish can help us.
Crucible of Worlds + Exploration (we already play MD) are already another hard lock with Glacial Chasm.
Situational Karakas (Emrakul) Tabernacle (if something should turn bad against swarm decks) etc.

Anyway, I see Living Wish being just good.
If we draw one, we focus on strategy. Multiples go on backup (our dorks are 0/1, 1/1...)

nudon
05-02-2013, 01:21 PM
This is essentially a combo deck so I don't think it's bad to have more consistency with all the tutors and cantrips. E-tutor is card disadvantage but using muddle the mixture or intuition might make the deck too slow and thus worse than playing MUC. 4x brainstorm and 4x gsz are no-brainers in my mind. There are plenty of shuffle effects to abuse brainstorm and gsz gives us 8 t1 mana dorks (or t2 if you really need white/blue from noble hierarch) and 8 rangers while saving us card slots. It also really opens up the sb because you can board in various silver bullets (i.e. teeg, ooze, pridemage) against different decks. Living wish doesn't even compare to gsz because it takes 2 mana and cannot find dryad arbor. The added bonus of finding a land is minor since we only care about forsaken city. I would play 4x gsz before the first living wish. Are you really going to pay 3 mana for a mana dork?

I know the correct number of ponders may not be 4 but it serves as a placeholder for now so you and others can provide feedback. I now agree that a creature like silhana ledgewalker is necessary for hidden strings but I like slippery bogle better due to it being 1 mana less. I believe the worst matchup to be RUG delver due to all their counterspells, removal, LD, and quick clock. Nimble mongoose is quite the nuisance too. Thus, it's unlikely we'll be able to generate 3 mana to gsz for it on t2. Moreover, bogle pitches to FoW when drawn. There might be concern about bogle not having evasion but the only reason to tutor for him/silhana in the first place is because of hidden strings. Thus, we can tap down any opposing blockers during the main phase. Non-threshold nimble mongoose can be beat with noble hierarch's exalted. I might be wrong but I believe goose and ironically scryb ranger (maverick) are the only creatures we can't tap that come down on t1/t2 in legacy without being cheated in. Even mother of runes has to choose between blue or green.

Edit: goblin piledriver is a problem too.

bruizar
05-03-2013, 02:40 AM
If you don't resolve a Stasis this deck becomes a pile. You need Tarmogoyfs/Knight of the Reliquary/Scavenging Ooze so that you can win without Stasis. Also, Forsaken City is a card you don't want to play, except as a 1-off with KOTR.

bruizar
05-03-2013, 02:44 AM
I would cut these cards:

After some more testing, here's my updated list:


4 Ponder - This isn't a combo deck but a prison/aggro hybrid.
4 Force of Will - Cut 1?
4 Hidden Strings - Do you really need 4? Can you go down to 3?
4 Enlightened Tutor - Not required, we already have brainstorm to dig
1 Exploration - Exploration sucks, rather have a KOTR, Ooze or Goyf to take over the game
1 Frozen Aether - You don't need a hard lock. Stasis is disruptive enough on its own
4 Forsaken City - Cut 3, this card sucks the cards right out of your hand.

Poron
05-03-2013, 04:31 AM
another point:

Crucible of Worlds + Exploration (fetchlands) opens to a totally new way to pay Stasis' upkeep
We just need a Zuran Orb to go infinite (but it's surely not needed 99,99% of the times)

these are all techs that, imho, are needed because our dorks are way too fragile..

honestly I prefer the Garruk/Crucible system instead of 1/1 dorks.. but probably it's a different deck.

How big is to be able to pack a Cursed Totem SB against Maverick, RUG, and so on? to be able to make their StP dead cards before even starting a match?
The only loss would be the Hidden String (huge loss) but I see it being a totally different deck in a totally different shell (more controllish, planeswalkers driven)

I'd call this version "The Ranger Stasis"

Sturtzilla
05-03-2013, 10:50 AM
Greetings! I have been Brainstorming on the right shell for the new planeswalker Ral Zarek. I think he is really powerful and not really receiving much love. Sure he isn't Jace, the Mind Sculptor powerful, but he seems like in the right shell he could be very good. The two ideas that I have come up with are the following Stasis list and some NO RUG variants. So I know this is a ways off what you guys have been talking about for the past few pages... but what do you think of this list?

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Stasis
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Fire / Ice
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ral Zarek
3 Force of Will
6 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand

So the list combines a few different strategies... Stasis Lock, Countertop Lock, mixed with potent countermagic and removal. It is a very rough list and will need some play testing. It may need more basics and fewer fetches... Some other thoughts I have include Winter Orb and Batterskull to add some resiliency/redundancy to the prison lock angle and an new angle of attack with a Vigilant and Lifelinking creature. Thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!

The Sideboard could look something like this:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage or Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Simthereens
3 Submerge
2 Rough / Tumble

There could be various tweaks depening on the meta of course but I think could be a good place to start.

bruizar
05-03-2013, 11:16 AM
That list looks very much like the list I've got sleeved up. I run the punishing fires/grove combo instead of Fire/Ice, but I don't think that that is good enough when you need UU for Counterbalance and U for the Stasis upkeep. Also something to consider, Turn // Burn can flip for 2 or 3 with counterbalance, where as fire/ice only flips for 2.

Sturtzilla
05-03-2013, 12:01 PM
That list looks very much like the list I've got sleeved up. I run the punishing fires/grove combo instead of Fire/Ice, but I don't think that that is good enough when you need UU for Counterbalance and U for the Stasis upkeep. Also something to consider, Turn // Burn can flip for 2 or 3 with counterbalance, where as fire/ice only flips for 2.

Thanks for the input. I hadn't really considered Turn / Burn but it does seem pretty powerful with Counterbalance. Fire / Ice has the added benefit of being able to tap items post Stasis. I think my mana base might need a little work. Stasis may demand more Islands in the deck and a few less fetches. I am going to proxy it up... I don't own the Ral Zareks at the moment.

Poron
05-03-2013, 01:04 PM
again, Stasis lock, CbTop lock, ok...

but I fail to see how this locks are better than a simple RiP + E Field (and that deck packs 4 CB and 4 Top too...). Always remembering that this last deck alt-wins with a colorless Helm of Obedience...

stasis shells are always subpar, tier2 at best. 0/1 creature based Stasis, overall, may be tier 3.

bruizar
05-03-2013, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure how you can say that. Have you tried Stasis with the current cardpool? The deck is rather unexplored. Saying something resolute like stasis will always be tier X is just a stupid thing to say. Here is a history lesson: Stasis was the deck that overthrew Necropotence when it dominated Magic. You know, that black enchantment that is too broken to unban it in Legacy.

Sturtzilla
05-03-2013, 03:00 PM
again, Stasis lock, CbTop lock, ok...

but I fail to see how this locks are better than a simple RiP + E Field (and that deck packs 4 CB and 4 Top too...). Always remembering that this last deck alt-wins with a colorless Helm of Obedience...

Stasis does something completely and inherently different than Rest in Peace and Energy Field. While RiP and the Field give you a soft damage prevention combo, they do not restrict an opponent's resources. This allows them both mana and time to find and appropriate answer to either part of this soft lock. Additionally they could also just find another way to win in the face of this. Many decks don't win with damage. I understand your argument that there is another prison style strategy out there, but Stasis attacks opponent's on a fundamentally different level. Not only do they only get a single attack or activation out of most creatures, we get to punish them for tapping out and/or keep them from essentially playing another spell the rest of the game.



stasis shells are always subpar, tier2 at best. 0/1 creature based Stasis, overall, may be tier 3.

This may have been true in the past. I don't think anyone has really looked into this particular strategy recently. Having such a closed-mined outlook an archetype is bad. It could turn out that this deck is positioned well versus a good cross section of the meta game.



I'm not sure how you can say that. Have you tried Stasis with the current cardpool? The deck is rather unexplored. Saying something resolute like stasis will always be tier X is just a stupid thing to say. Here is a history lesson: Stasis was the deck that overthrew Necropotence when it dominated Magic. You know, that black enchantment that is too broken to unban it in Legacy.

I agree with this statement. Legacy is an expansive format with near infinite options and permutations of those options. To simply say that a specific archetype is the best deck or completely unplayable is folly. The format is so awesome because an experienced player with a knowledge of their deck and the format can typically do well regardless of the deck that they choose. There is always exploration to be done in this format!

nudon
05-03-2013, 03:14 PM
If you don't resolve a Stasis this deck becomes a pile. You need Tarmogoyfs/Knight of the Reliquary/Scavenging Ooze so that you can win without Stasis. Also, Forsaken City is a card you don't want to play, except as a 1-off with KOTR.

4 Ponder - This isn't a combo deck but a prison/aggro hybrid.
4 Force of Will - Cut 1?
4 Hidden Strings - Do you really need 4? Can you go down to 3?
4 Enlightened Tutor - Not required, we already have brainstorm to dig
1 Exploration - Exploration sucks, rather have a KOTR, Ooze or Goyf to take over the game
1 Frozen Aether - You don't need a hard lock. Stasis is disruptive enough on its own
4 Forsaken City - Cut 3, this card sucks the cards right out of your hand.

I finally got to test the build against a live opponent yesterday instead of goldfishing and agree that the deck becomes a pile without a resolved stasis. I think KotR is the best beater for the deck since it helps tutor for forsaken city as well. There were times when I drew a second gsz with stasis in play and really wished I had KotR to close out the game quicker.

Here are my thoughts on your suggestions:
4 Ponder - agree; replaced by 4 KotR
4 Force of Will - agree; with the reduced blue count and e-tutors, card disadvantage becomes a problem
4 Hidden Strings - disagree; even more important now with KotR
4 Enlightened Tutor - disagree; I still had problems finding stasis on occasion even with ponders
1 Exploration - agree; terrible with the lower land count
1 Frozen Aether - disagree; there are times when your opponent won't tap out fully and gives e-tutor more value as well
4 Forsaken City - agree; I wanted to kill myself everytime I had this in the opener without all the pieces yet


another point:

Crucible of Worlds + Exploration (fetchlands) opens to a totally new way to pay Stasis' upkeep
We just need a Zuran Orb to go infinite (but it's surely not needed 99,99% of the times)

these are all techs that, imho, are needed because our dorks are way too fragile..

honestly I prefer the Garruk/Crucible system instead of 1/1 dorks.. but probably it's a different deck.

How big is to be able to pack a Cursed Totem SB against Maverick, RUG, and so on? to be able to make their StP dead cards before even starting a match?
The only loss would be the Hidden String (huge loss) but I see it being a totally different deck in a totally different shell (more controllish, planeswalkers driven)

I'd call this version "The Ranger Stasis"

I think you're trying to do too much with crucible and exploration since it's unlikely to get both out. Frozen Aether gives you the hard-lock for 1 mana more than crucible while exploration has been very hit-or-miss.

Updated list to test:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Frozen Aether
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forsaken City

Poron
05-03-2013, 04:58 PM
I finally got to test the build against a live opponent yesterday instead of goldfishing and agree that the deck becomes a pile without a resolved stasis. I think KotR is the best beater for the deck since it helps tutor for forsaken city as well. There were times when I drew a second gsz with stasis in play and really wished I had KotR to close out the game quicker.

Here are my thoughts on your suggestions:
4 Ponder - agree; replaced by 4 KotR
4 Force of Will - agree; with the reduced blue count and e-tutors, card disadvantage becomes a problem
4 Hidden Strings - disagree; even more important now with KotR
4 Enlightened Tutor - disagree; I still had problems finding stasis on occasion even with ponders
1 Exploration - agree; terrible with the lower land count
1 Frozen Aether - disagree; there are times when your opponent won't tap out fully and gives e-tutor more value as well
4 Forsaken City - agree; I wanted to kill myself everytime I had this in the opener without all the pieces yet



I think you're trying to do too much with crucible and exploration since it's unlikely to get both out. Frozen Aether gives you the hard-lock for 1 mana more than crucible while exploration has been very hit-or-miss.

Updated list to test:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Frozen Aether
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forsaken City

playing this deck, I only notice this: good explosiveness in the first 2-3 turns (Ranger, dorks, GSZ, Hidden Strings) after that we have to capitalize with a Stasis. If we can't, the deck loses. it just loses KotR is something that ANYTHING kills. (smother, Abrupt Decay, Swords, M.Pulse), moreover playing the deck I noticed that 90% of my Eot were an infart due to their tutorings.. just anything wrecks us.
Pithing Needle, Swords, Cursed Totem, early Counterbalance..

I insist, to me the only good way to play Stasis is n a real controllish shell with planeswalkers. This can't go over the "fun deck" level.

This said I stop writing because, I see that I can't help with a list I don't believe in at all.

bruizar
05-03-2013, 09:39 PM
I remain convinced that both angles should be explored. Both the Ral Zarek versions and the Hidden Strings versions need to be tested and refined.

I think the updates you applied to the Hidden Strings deck improve the deck a lot. I wish there was a better way to find Stasis. The only thing I can come up with is Muddle the Mixture and Academy Rector, but obv. you want Omniscience if you are going to play with Rectors. I actually still think that the deck should be able to pull out wins without resolving a Stasis at all, because you don't want Stasis to be your critical card that you must resolve in the game.

---

For the Counterbalance list, I played with Snapcaster Mage and Noxious Revival. Noxious Revival can return Stasis, but it can also be used to put a card with the right mana-cost on top for counterbalance (for example force of will vs force of will, then draw new force of will the next turn). Not saying that this is _the_ route to go, just a cute interaction that I like.

Canarias4life
05-04-2013, 08:32 AM
Someone has trying Ral Zarek ? I'm trying Uw version(with jace the mindsculptor) and I want to know if Ur version is better than Uw

Oiolosse
05-05-2013, 03:48 AM
For the GSZ build ppl. Stop trying to run Exploration. Just run a singleton Asuza.

Bruizar has it right. You cannot rely on Stasis to win. You do not have gush. Monoblue or heavy blue/light splash won't cut it. It will be tier 3 pretty much forever.

You need to bide time. You need other lock pieces. This deck plays best when played like stax. Tangle wire is awesome. Turn 2/3 Tanglewire is golden. U/g builds run shit loads of little permanents which synergize very well with Tanglewire anyway. You remove a counter and tap wire, it's like, totally lopsided, try it.

Try Meditate. End of opponents turn you find that your Tanglewire/Stasis/Winter Orb has them locked? Draw 4! It's very, very solid. Yes, sometimes you may hate seeing it, but if you are running a tax heavy build then you will love it, promise.

Sturtzilla
05-05-2013, 10:23 AM
I goldfished a few games of the list that I proposed a page back. The :ur: version with Ral Zarek. It seemed fairly powerful. However there were a few things that I noticed. I think that my initial list was lacking in a few of the typical prison areas. It is possible that I need to be adding a Tangle Wire and/or Propaganda. I am hoping that these will help keep us alive while working up to Ral Zarek. I think the list also needs Chain of Vapor. Chain can be very powerful in this deck as it can buy time against early threats, encourages opponents to sacrifice lands, and ultimately with a Stasis on the table, it lets you bounce it at the end of an opponent's turn to get a full untap. Then we can just drop Stasis again with a lot of open mana. I think this play should basically win most games. I think an updated list could look something like this:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Daze
4 Stasis
4 Fire / Ice
2 Pyroclasm
4 Tangle Wire
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ral Zarek
4 Force of Will
8 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest

I think this version is a little more geared towards fighting creature decks. The Tangle Wires and Pyroclasms should help buy time while the 4 packs of Daze and FoW should help hedge against combo. This version will def need some additional combo help in the sideboard. It is possible that with the cutting of Counterbalance, the Tops could also be taking out. I am going to proxy a few games of this deck later today before Legacy locals.

Canarias4life
05-05-2013, 01:23 PM
Sturtzilla I like your deck list but I dont know if Ral Zarek is useless. Why do you think your deck list is better than Uw ?

// Spells
3 Stasis
4 Tangle wire
2 Impulse
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Devastation Tide
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Tel-Jilad Stylus

// Lands

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Forsaken City
2 Tundra

Have you think a sideboard?

Sturtzilla
05-06-2013, 10:42 AM
Sturtzilla I like your deck list but I dont know if Ral Zarek is useless. Why do you think your deck list is better than Uw ? Have you think a sideboard?

Ral Zarek essentially allows you to keep Stasis active longer. Untapping your lands while tapping down opposing threats and/or lands is a pretty big gain that Ral could give to the deck. I think it has some merit; however, in the games I play tested assembling the lock proved to be a bit more difficult than I had anticipated. The UW version might be better as you can tutor for the specific pieces that you need at any given point in time. An America (:u::w::r:) shell might be the way to go as the deck you have proposed only really used white for E.Tutor. You would have access to Enlightened Tutor and could have a very light splash for Ral. I am still brewing a bit... I think that there is a configuration for it but I am not sure what it is yet. I don't have a solid sideboard yet either. Something like this....

3 Stasis
4 Tangle wire
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ral Zarek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Devastation Tide
3 Chain of Vapor
9 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Forsaken City
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra

Poron
05-07-2013, 04:15 AM
the way to go, imho is UWR (Ral Zarek) or UWG (Garruk Wildspeaker) G also gives us Root Maze and Carpet of Flowers (not to mention, eventually Crop Rotation for Tabernacle)

W is essentially for 2 cards:
Enlightened Tutor (4x, obv)
Equipoise

what really makes the cut in the planeswalker version is:
1) cheap hard-lock through Root Maze and Equipoise
2) Reliable win-con with a single Planeswalker (Jace + Forsaken City, Garruk alone)

all you have to do is to cast an early Root Maze, a Planeswalker (any) and a Stasis

8 Planswalker + 4 Tutors help us to fix this a lot.
Also, blue is so common that I would play 1-2 Carpet of Flowers maindeck

anyway, to me this is the only way to go for Stasis. Now we fear only Pithing Needle, before we feared anything...

nudon
05-09-2013, 03:09 PM
For those trying Ral Zarek, have you tried using ancient tombs + city of traitors to mimic what UB tezzeret does? Izzet signet and goblin welder are possibilities too.

Here's my latest list using hidden strings:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Hidden Strings
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Frozen Ęther
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Force of Will

The biggest change was adding mom. She helps protect the other creatures while also allowing hidden strings to punch through pro-blue, shroud, and creature swarms. Replacing FoW with spell pierce was due to the card disadvantage of e-tutor. Though it is possible to use winter orb, I just didn't like how drawing multiples equated to dead cards. Moreover, winter orb doesn't do much against elves, reanimator, RUG, and other decks with low land counts. Muddle the mixture was added to provide more consistency (tutors for stasis, hidden strings, and scavenging ooze). The single scavenging ooze solves a lot of problems. It serves as a beater, keeps DRS off mana, shrinks goyfs/mongeese, kills reanimator/dredge, neutralizes tiago, and buys time by gaining life. The weakest card in the deck is definitely frozen aether but I'm not sure what else would be a better 2nd e-tutor target. Some possibilities I thought of are crucible of worlds, sterling grove, blind obedience, and phyrexian revoker.

Kagehisa
05-10-2013, 10:07 AM
I want to share my old list too lol

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stasis
4 Tangle Wire

1 Energy Field
2 Muddle the Mixture

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Thwart

3 Ensnare
4 Fathom Seer
4 Ancestral Vision

2 Chain of Vapor


24 Island

For the first turns, you can defend yourself with almost everything :
Turn 1 : Force of Will, Chain of Vapor (sometimes free Daze)
Turn 2 : above + (hardcasted) Daze, Energy Field, Fathom Seer, Muddle the Mixture (rarely free Ensnare)
Turn 3 : above + (morphed) Fathom Seer, Tangle Wire (rarely free Thwart)
Turn 4 : above + (hardcasted) Ensnare, (hardscasted) Thwart, Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

You have to defend to reach turn 5 and resolve Ancestral Vision and drop Stasis.
Suddenly, under Stasis, all your cards become food for Stasis.

Daze bounces Island, you replay it untapped.
Chain of Vapor bounces Stasis in your opponent's end of turn.
Fathom Seer and Ensnare bounce two Island, you replay them untapped. Fathom Seer can make draw more Islands.
Thwart bounce three Island, you replay them untapped.
Ancestral Vision makes you draw into more Island.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor fateseal yourself or brainstorm to dig Island and pay for Stasis' upkeep.
Island you naturally draw, of course =)



Card details :

Jace, the Mind Sculptor : fateseal yourself or Brainstorm to dig for islands and keep dropping islands to pay Stasis' upkeep and go for ultimate, obviously. He feeds Stasis by fatesealing you or brainstorming and is protected by his own bounce ability and Stasis. Propaganda or Energy Field don't protect Jace. Stasis does. Sometimes, you land it just to buy a critical turn.

Stasis : play it on turn 4 or 5. Feed it with island that you draw or bounce back. Jace and Stasis on the board are GG.


Tangle Wire : play the asymmetrical Tangle Wire turn 3 to slow your opponent (more than you) and let you more time to drop lands and and draw Stasis. It buys some much time ! It protects Jace.

Force of Will : free wonderful counterspell

Daze : Force Spike for free and "draw" an island (remember you can hardcast it turn 2) Feed Stasis

Thwart : Counterspell for free and "draw" three islands (remember you can hardcast it turn 4) Feed Stasis

Ensnare : free spell, fog your opponent army and "draw" two islands. Remember it can be hardcasted turn 4 to buy time.

This card is so under-estimated.
How you can use it :
_Tap all creatures, and "draw" two islands to pay Stasis upkeep.
_Imagine : You have no island untapped with Stasis on board. You cannot pay Stasis' upkeep. You sacrifice it. You pass. Your happy opponent untaps all his permanent and you tap all his creatures for free ! He is sad and plays something and pass. You untap and replay a Stasis from your hand XD You can consider it like a free Reset.

Fathom Seer : Feed Stasis (and cost only 2 mana on turn 4 sometimes) "draw" two islands and draw 2 real cards ! it can be bounced by Jace to be replayed. It blocks too, sometimes.

Ancestral Vision : play it turn 1. Survive with Force of Will, Tangle Wire, Ensnare, Thwart, Daze, Fathom Seer or even Jace and draw 3 additional cards turn 5 !

Chain of Vapor : bounce everything (don't use it when you have Jace on board unless you can afford to waste a counterspell...)

Energy Field : singleton. Sometimes, you have not enough lands to play and feed Stasis. Energy Field buys time to let you make your land drops... it can be tutored by the 2 Muddle the Mixture. It does not protect Jace.

Muddle the Mixture : counterspell for sorcery/instant or tutor for Stasis, Energy Field (Fathom seer too lol)

HPB_Eggo
05-10-2013, 12:32 PM
Just a thought, but if people are really looking into Hidden Strings why not consider Invisible Stalker? It's cheap, impossible for many decks to remove, and will always connect for your tap/untap.

Still think walkers are best with Stasis, but if you're really looking to abuse Hidden Strings Stalker looks like the natural candidate.

Poron
05-10-2013, 02:50 PM
Just a thought, but if people are really looking into Hidden Strings why not consider Invisible Stalker? It's cheap, impossible for many decks to remove, and will always connect for your tap/untap.

Still think walkers are best with Stasis, but if you're really looking to abuse Hidden Strings Stalker looks like the natural candidate.

Because Mom is so much better for that

HPB_Eggo
05-10-2013, 05:07 PM
Because Mom is so much better for that

And requires both a white splash and a second creature?

nudon
05-10-2013, 05:24 PM
And requires both a white splash and a second creature?

The white splash gives you e-tutor and its corresponding sb package as well. If you choose not to splash white, good luck finding stasis with muddle the mixtures, brainstorms, and ponders... A second creature isn't really an issue when you're trying to abuse stasis with hierarch/ranger untaps anyways. Meanwhile, invisible stalker is a dead card unless you have hidden strings.

Poron
05-10-2013, 07:53 PM
were there really, someone, still thinking about the white splash? that's a staple

Oiolosse
05-10-2013, 11:31 PM
I've read lots of comments that without Stasis this is just a pile. I mostly agree. To remedy this I used to run Opposition. If you go UG with lots of mana dorks and untappers and Garruk beast tokens then Opposition is great. Makes Coiling Oracle useful again and has the added benefit of making Winter Orb completely lopsided. If you run UG with creatures give it a try. Especially, to the ones that run white for E.Tutor.

Poron
05-11-2013, 03:43 AM
don't know, they're free to play anything instant speed... I would stay UWg/r with 4 Stasis and 4 Enlightened Tutor.

that's 2/15 probability to see one of the 2 every card you see.

enough to me

nudon
05-11-2013, 11:24 AM
After some more testing, here are the changes I made: -4 Spell Pierce, -1 Frozen Aether, +2 FoW, +2 Hidden Strings, +1 Crucible of Worlds

I didn't really like the loss of tempo from having 4 spell pierce and replaced them with 2 FoW and 2 hidden strings respectively. I've found out that I really want hidden strings to close out the game fast. It also lets me remove frozen aether from the deck, which I absolutely hate seeing in my hand. With mom and counter backup, hidden strings is also a nice tempo play even without stasis. Crucible now serves as the e-tutor target for when I already have stasis. It helps offset some of the card disadvantage while keeping up a stasis lock in the absence of quirion ranger and hidden strings. In addition, it actually has value even when stasis isn't in play; good all-around utility. There is no wasteland-crucible recursion since that requires exploration/azusa to be shoved into the deck. Those cards are usually win-more in this deck since by the time they are useful, you should be able to close the game out anyways.

Poron
05-11-2013, 01:09 PM
... didn't you already play 4 FoWs and 4 Hidden Strings..?

Also with Azusa, imho, to pack a Crucible of Worlds becomes a staple (in the 75 cards, I mean, also as a SB against disruptive decks)

nudon
05-11-2013, 06:12 PM
I had 4 FoW and 4 hidden strings for awhile but started to experiment with the number of copies. Currently I have 2 FoW and the full play set of hidden strings. I'd like to find room for 4 but not sure what to cut. Options include ooze and shaving a play set. I do have crucible but don't have Azusa currently since I feel it's usually win more. It's better than exploration though by being a creature.

SpoCk0nd0pe
05-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Chain of Vapor. Chain can be very powerful in this deck as it can buy time against early threats, encourages opponents to sacrifice lands, and ultimately with a Stasis on the table, it lets you bounce it at the end of an opponent's turn to get a full untap. Then we can just drop Stasis again with a lot of open mana. I think this play should basically win most games.

I tried Chain of Vapor in my list and it didn't work very well. It usually freed up 2-3 mana, something Ensnare could do just as well while having extra benefits (like not making stasis prone to counterspells).


The white splash gives you e-tutor and its corresponding sb package as well. If you choose not to splash white, good luck finding stasis with muddle the mixtures, brainstorms, and ponders... A second creature isn't really an issue when you're trying to abuse stasis with hierarch/ranger untaps anyways. Meanwhile, invisible stalker is a dead card unless you have hidden strings.

I tend to agree a lot. Try my creature list of stasis before dismissing creatures and white, I tested stasis a lot over the past 2 years and I have to say E.tutor and Quirion Ranger are mandatory.

@Mostly the findings of Nudon:

I really like your approach in testing! You try a lot of options and I mostly agree with the way you think about the deck. I didn't test your list yet, but if I find the time I definitely will!

To give your testing more input: You might try to go more controllish. I disagree with plainswalkers, but I like to play a lot of counterspells. Poron's said your list is too vulnerable to disruption, while not testing it myself I can imagine it's true (because I run more counterspells in my testings and still think about running even more).
Is Hidden Strings really the right choice? I didn't test this card either but you squeezed some resources in to make it work (MoR, like I said, I doubt it will work reliably because most 1 drops will block your ranger). You essentially have another 3 card combo in your deck. Are you sure the effect of hidden strings is worth it?
You could try my list for a few games and see if you like it, while more biased towards control my approach is not that different.

My current list:


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [A] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [A] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
2 [US] Exploration
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [MM] Misdirection
3 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
SB: 1 [RTR] Detention Sphere

bruizar
05-12-2013, 12:59 PM
mom doesnt work. you cant untap mom + creature + island with only 2 untaps from hidden strings. mom+stings does work though, but mom+strings+stasis doesn't.

Poron
05-12-2013, 05:26 PM
1) multiple Hidden Strings are possible
2) the creature enchanted with Hidden Strings only needs to connect once. Then it clears its own path alone

nudon
05-12-2013, 09:03 PM
@spock: Thanks for the positive comments! I would love to try a control version of this deck but the reality is I don't have much time to go to my LGS to play against a live opponent. Playing the hidden strings version allows me to goldfish with any free time I have. Moreover, I'm aware that several posters on this thread have been testing Ral Zarek or other control variants so I figured it'd be more efficient to diversify our efforts to see which build is stronger. However based on inspection alone, I feel there are some inherent flaws in your deckbuilding process. First, you have more duals than fetches. Also, I don't see how it's possible ponder can be better than brainstorm. Serra avenger forces you to strain your mana base for double white as well. Wouldn't Garruk be a better finisher in a control strategy? If you want a vigilant creature, stoneforge mystic (for batterskull) would probably be better. It also allows for some dirty plays with SoFaF. Also, there are two dreadnoughts in your sideboard when you already have enlightened tutors to find the singleton.

The concerns about creature removal from Poron were legitimate so that's precisely why I added mom. The secondary benefit of making mana dorks/scavenging ooze unblockable for hidden strings is usually relevant only against pro-blue, shroud, and creature swarms.

@bruizar: I think you misunderstood how I'm using mom in this deck. It's meant to complement the quirion ranger/hidden strings plan by protecting my creatures, not serve as the primary hidden strings enabler. You're correct that hidden strings won't be able to untap mom, an attacker, and a blue mana source. However, a protected first main phase hidden strings (counter/mom) will tap down up to 2 opposing creatures for your [possibly exalted] attacker to punch through anyway. As Poron explained, this is a self-sustaining soft-lock. Off the top of my head, the only creatures you can't tap down on turns 1/2 are goblin piledriver, scryb ranger, and nimble mongoose. Piledriver and ranger are in very specific decks while nimble mongoose can still be beat with exalted or ooze. In addition to multiple hidden strings, 8 quirion rangers can also untap mom in order to sustain the lock. I'll finally reiterate that mom is NOT necessary in order to achieve the lock and serves as a very important complement piece while acting as 4 extra bodies to encode hidden strings on if necessary. You still have quirion rangers, hidden strings with counter backup, or hidden strings with opponent's mana tapped out (no removal).

For reference, here's my current maindeck:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hidden Strings
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Stasis
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor

The biggest question I still have is the number of md FoW needed. More testing will help answer this. Thanks to everyone for their constructive feedback.

bruizar
05-13-2013, 04:17 AM
Thanks for elaborating. I actually like your maindeck a lot. I do have to say that I think the omission of Knight of the Reliquary/Tarmogoyf is a mistake. KotR can find a singleton forsaken city, and it gives you a bunch of toolbox options, depending on the meta:

Maze of Ith for pseudo vigilance
Bojuka Bog for gy-hate
Tower of the Magistrate for Batterskull
Karakas for Emrakul

I would skew the deck even more towards maverick. I would also use at least 1 scryb ranger to fend of Jace or delver of secrets.

SpoCk0nd0pe
05-13-2013, 01:01 PM
@spock: Thanks for the positive comments! I would love to try a control version of this deck but the reality is I don't have much time to go to my LGS to play against a live opponent. Playing the hidden strings version allows me to goldfish with any free time I have. Moreover, I'm aware that several posters on this thread have been testing Ral Zarek or other control variants so I figured it'd be more efficient to diversify our efforts to see which build is stronger. However based on inspection alone, I feel there are some inherent flaws in your deckbuilding process. First, you have more duals than fetches. Also, I don't see how it's possible ponder can be better than brainstorm. Serra avenger forces you to strain your mana base for double white as well. Wouldn't Garruk be a better finisher in a control strategy? If you want a vigilant creature, stoneforge mystic (for batterskull) would probably be better. It also allows for some dirty plays with SoFaF. Also, there are two dreadnoughts in your sideboard when you already have enlightened tutors to find the singleton.

The concerns about creature removal from Poron were legitimate so that's precisely why I added mom. The secondary benefit of making mana dorks/scavenging ooze unblockable for hidden strings is usually relevant only against pro-blue, shroud, and creature swarms.
I agree that testing more versions will help finding an optimum for the archetype.
I disagree with plainswalkers though, at least in my build the are too expensive. Maybe Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors is an option here (helps speeding up Trangle Wire as well). Like I explained earlier I found freeing 4 mana is difficult in close games, so Plainswalkers feel like win more to me (and the Avenger actually gets the job done faster then Garruk).
SFM essentially costs 4 mana as well, plus most untapped goyfs can block the BS to death, so I prefer the Avenger for evasion and vigilance. WW never was a problem because all but 4 mana sources in my deck can be white.

About Ponder vs Brainstorm: I honestly didn't test the choice a lot. I figured Ponder see's one more card and I often cannot save fetches for Brainstorm (and I usually feed E.Tutor to Forsaken City post Stasis). So I figured a build in shuffle effect helps. But this probably needs more testing.

It's mostly lack of inspiration that placed the second Dreadnought in my SB. It probably could be something more useful.

If you can place the lands on the board Thwart might be worth a look. It's an auto 2 of in my list, and I'm thinking about a third one.
Also Scryb Ranger is a wonderful carrier for Hidden Strings because he evades almost all Legacy creatures. You could try him as 1 of against creature swarms.

Did you test vs Jund? I think Jund is a good benchmark for resiliency, I would be very much interested in your results!

nudon
05-13-2013, 11:05 PM
@bruizar: I agree that KotR should be in the deck, though probably as a 2/3-of instead of the full play set. There are only 18 lands in the deck and it requires a deeper commitment to white mana. I temporarily removed it to make room for mom. I'll try testing with -1 scavenging ooze, -2 muddle the mixture, -3 verdant catacombs, +2 KotR, +1 forsaken city, +1 wasteland, +1 karakas, +1 maze of ith. I've contemplated scryb ranger but am not sure it's necessary with hidden strings, mom, and the full quirion ranger play set.

@spock: Thwart wouldn't work because of the lower land count in my deck. Scryb ranger has protection from blue so it won't be able to untap itself from a cipher trigger. I haven't seen too much of jund due to the many combo decks around in my meta. However, I'm more than willing to test against you or anyone else online. Just a warning, I don't know all the hot keys so you'd have to bear with me the first few times.

I think the biggest problem with your list is it seems overly dependent on resolving a stasis. Starting with your mana base, 4 forsaken city and especially 4 treva's ruins are very bad in the absence of stasis. Treva's ruins puts you so far behind to a single wasteland activation too. Being a control deck, wouldn't a few basics and more fetches (helps brainstorms too) go a long way in protecting your play? Despite relying heavily on stasis, you only have 7 virtual copies of stasis in your deck so I'd imagine there are times you can't reliably find it. Having only 11 creatures means that removal hits you harder than most decks. Thus, I think you really need to consider gsz + arbor package. It adds so much more consistency while providing nice sb options. Hope this helps.

On a side note, I would start with the following template in a Ral Zarek build:
4 Force of Will
4 Ral Zarek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stasis
4 Winter Orb
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Trinket Mage
2 Fire // Ice
1 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Izzet Signet
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
2 Academy Ruins

Poron
05-14-2013, 06:18 AM
In your list I would add Rishadan Port, Propaganda and 1-2Mana Short for the same final effect

dtekkar
05-14-2013, 07:10 AM
I was just reconsidering legacy stasis after looking at Ral Zarek myself. I doubt it's t1, still, but there are some intriguing new developments:

I think Ral Zarek does everything you want with a soft lock stasis in a control shell. He sustains stasis, taps down their stuff, hardening the lock a bit. He has removal, which stasis is always light on. And his ultimate means you can let stasis fall, untap, play win conditions, then replay a fresh stasis with counter mana up after your turn(s)... and stasis tends to generate a lot of planeswalker ultimates. He needs good targets for his untap, artifacts and lands that generate strong mana or effects. 4 Mana is a lot though, and he doesn't take over the game like Jace TMS does. Edit: After playtesting, the fact that his -2 is sorcery speed burns him time and again. His +1 is very weak unless it is manipulating enemy creatures when you are pounding the red zone, even then, he seems to be best used almost exclusively to double nuke to burn the blockage or send 6 to the face, which, again is pretty questionable for 4 mana, nevermind a planeswalker. Lava axe anyone?

What is the verdict on Blind Obedience? I haven't playtested it yet. I really like the idea of a 2 mana lock card in white, but missing the lands I suspect makes this a pyrrhic victory at best. Sadly, I think root maze is still the go-to hard lock choice. It hits turn 1, punishes fetchlands with 2 tapdowns, giving you tempo, shuts down LED/petal storm and slows artifact heavy decks. But it doesn't fit into a control shell that wants brainstorm/JaceTMS/fetch of its own:mad:

Poking around at some stasis-friendly cards, Tangle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tangle) seems excellent, though in a more turboland-esque shell. It fogs and then holds their stuff down another turn. If you run out a fast stasis, their next untap phase is quite a while away, so this may give you time to let stasis drop then replay it without giving them an untap on their creatures. It seems like it could be effective paired with Snapcasters and hidden strings to get "8" copies of each.

One of the key things I saw the old turboland combo decks used to do is board in creatures game 2, right as the other player boards out their removal. Serra Avenger flying around in a stasis unanswered game 2 seems like a nice trick and a good one-two punch.

In fact, the more I play with Serra Avenger in stasis, the more I like her. Whoever solves the stasis legacy brew will probably have it in there, assuming it isn't the U/G wombocombo version. It is a reasonably fast clock on it's own, hits indefinitely under stasis, has evasion for hidden strings, and even if the stasis can't be sustained (say, because you got in a counter war over resolving it) a few turns of stasis disruption can be all Avenger needs.

Hmm, maybe the old landstill shell might be the way to go. Seal of cleansing cleans standstill AND can get stasis off the board for free during their turn once mana gets tight to untap first, and enlightened tutor can go get all 3. And you are already running maindeck crucible/fetch.

Edit: Nope! My first shot at a Ral Zarek landstill/stasis decklist ended with 10 games of Ral Zarek basically just bolting something and dying. I had him sustaining stasis twice, and that WAS pretty sweet, but I was still looking at Jace to win the game so he's definitely a win-more in many cases.

Maybe the bant vigilance tempo beats, batterskull/SerraAvenger/Geist with hiddenstrings/StoneforgedMystic behind it, Sword of Feast and Famine, Tanglewire & Root maze and pile on tempo effects, using stasis as a tempo card? Then Ral Zarek can clear a path for geist and -2 to the face for the win, with the backup plan that he can infinitely sustain stasis and go ultimate, oldschool stasis style. You'd have to skip on the Scrybieranger/nobleheirarch/Arborforest fix/ramp and sustain? I'll go try it.

Edit#2: Hmm, with Ral Zarek too expensive and hidden strings a removal blowout, stasis seems to just be a pile. Hidden strings needs a good hexproof evasion guy to wear hidden strings that also somehow helps stasis, like a 1/3 hexproof flyer for UU that untaps a permanent when it deals combat damage or something like that and that still wouldn't get it anywhere near decent.

Anyway, the best decklist I've tested so far is:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Hidden Strings
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Stasis
2 Ral Zarek

1 Plains
2 island
2 volcanic island
4 Tundra
4 scalding tarn
4 Flooded strand
3 Misty Rainforest

10 cards get you to a sustained stasis, Hidden Strings(x3), Ral Zarek(x2), stoneforgeMystic->sword(5x), and 3 Daze somewhat make up for the fact that mystics all go pick up the same sword and the fact that you need to get through.

Gedaco
05-14-2013, 09:22 AM
On a side note, I would start with the following template in a Ral Zarek build:
4 Force of Will
4 Ral Zarek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stasis
4 Winter Orb
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Trinket Mage
2 Fire // Ice
1 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Izzet Signet
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
2 Academy Ruins


I like your list. It doesn't seem very dependent on Stasis and it can lock down the game with Chalice for example. I like it. I know this is a UR list but with so many artifacts don't you like Tezzeret? Adding or with less Jace...

Canarias4life
05-14-2013, 12:05 PM
Nudon you are playing more fetchs than islands or mountains?
I would try to play only 1 academy ruins because you do not have enough blue mana so you're depending on Ral zarek to play Stasis.
Don't you think that trinisphere + winter orb is very strong?
In your list there are two locks winter orb + ral zarek and stasis+ ral zarek but I think that 4 stasis and 4 winter orb are too

nudon
05-14-2013, 02:21 PM
First and foremost, I just wanted to reiterate that my Ral Zarek list was something I threw together off the top of my head last night and my hidden strings version is shown previously (with actual testing). That said, I think Ral Zarek has a lot of potential and I might pursue this list more in the near future.


In your list I would add Rishadan Port, Propaganda and 1-2Mana Short for the same final effect
Rishadan port might be ok but it hurts the ramp into walker/worm plan. For this reason, I didn't include wasteland. It causes your port and another land to be tapped too. Propaganda doesn't protect the walkers. Mana short seems interesting but I think tangle wire might be better due to academy ruins recursion.


I like your list. It doesn't seem very dependent on Stasis and it can lock down the game with Chalice for example. I like it. I know this is a UR list but with so many artifacts don't you like Tezzeret? Adding or with less Jace...
Thanks! You're right in that I didn't want a control deck to be too dependent on a single card. T1 chalice for 1 off ancient tomb is probably the best play this deck can make. I would love to add tezzeret but not sure if the mana base can handle adding another color. I'll have a better idea once I actually this test this.


Nudon you are playing more fetchs than islands or mountains?
I would try to play only 1 academy ruins because you do not have enough blue mana so you're depending on Ral zarek to play Stasis.
Don't you think that trinisphere + winter orb is very strong?
In your list there are two locks winter orb + ral zarek and stasis+ ral zarek but I think that 4 stasis and 4 winter orb are too
Yes, most legacy decks play more fetches than actual targets. With mana filtering from the signets, blue mana isn't really a problem I think. The reason I put 2 ruins is because I want to be able to intuition for crucible, ruins, ruins. Furthermore, I'd rather have 2 ruins than 2 crucibles to recur EE. Yes, I thought about trinisphere as well but just haven't had time to test yet. Winter orb might even be better than stasis because it allows you to untap ancient tombs and city of traitors while they only get 1 mana back each turn. Ral Zarek helps this asymmetry too.

Poron
05-14-2013, 05:52 PM
instead of the second Ruin, you can consider Noxious Revival.

Canarias4life
05-15-2013, 07:06 PM
Nudon whats about your stasis version ? I am interested in your list I hope your comments!!
Don't you think firespout is better than fire//ice?

nudon
05-16-2013, 12:00 AM
instead of the second Ruin, you can consider Noxious Revival.
I think noxious revival would be better in a counterbalance build. It also doesn't play well with chalice of the void.


Nudon whats about your stasis version ? I am interested in your list I hope your comments!!
Don't you think firespout is better than fire//ice?
I haven't had the chance to test it yet but I get the feeling stasis might require more ways to sustain it aside from Ral Zarek. This means either dropping the number of stasis in the deck or replacing it altogether with another lock piece such as tangle wire or counterbalance. The deck doesn't have green mana to hit flyers. Ice also acts as a temporary sinkhole with cantrip.

Oiolosse
05-16-2013, 11:54 AM
Nudon, interesting list with Chalice. It is far enough removed from my UG list that I will sleeve it up!

You asked about another lockpiece in addition to Stasis...Trinisphere is perfect here. It isn't lock per se but considering you're avoiding 1-drops it seems solid.

SpoCk0nd0pe
05-16-2013, 02:41 PM
@Nudon: Yes, my list is very much dependent on Stasis but I think yours is too (I think you will have problems vs aggro without stasis). About the pre Stasis bad cards: I think Forsaken City is still a good (resilient) option to sustain Stasis, the cards you pointed out are there to make it work. That's why I'm not all that worried about removal btw.

Testing would be a good thing, I feel I've got to a point where an intense testing session is the only way to improve my list. While brainstorming about card choices is a good thing, I think we came to a point were some test results would really help this thread. Next week are holidays from my studies, maybe we can find the time then (I'm at GMT+1, using Magic Workstation).

What do you guys think, how many games should be played against an archetype to have some statistical relevant data?

nudon
05-16-2013, 08:12 PM
@oiolosse: The main problem with trinisphere is non-synergy with FoW. I'm starting to like the control version more as I ponder what to add though! Winter orb is pretty legit with our sol lands and Ral Zarek.

@spock: Yes, my bant creature version functions better with stasis. However, it has access to 2 KotR and 4 gsz (finding knight) as a backup beatdown plan. Though I haven't tested the deck with the KotR package yet, I imagine mom to really help in all matchups. I agree forsaken city is excellent for sustaining stasis (assuming it doesn't get wasted). However, are you able to consistently find and protect stasis with only 7 copies in your deck? I feel stasis decks should have either almost no creatures or plenty of them. Having a smaller amount probably makes each creature a magnet for removal.

Sure, I'd be up to play test. I am in LA so that means pacific time. I wouldn't worry about specific matchups yet but rather a general feel for the deck. Assuming the deck is solid, the sideboard and quantities of each individual card can later be tuned for a specific metagame.

SpoCk0nd0pe
05-17-2013, 11:26 AM
@spock: Yes, my bant creature version functions better with stasis. However, it has access to 2 KotR and 4 gsz (finding knight) as a backup beatdown plan. Though I haven't tested the deck with the KotR package yet, I imagine mom to really help in all matchups. I agree forsaken city is excellent for sustaining stasis (assuming it doesn't get wasted). However, are you able to consistently find and protect stasis with only 7 copies in your deck? I feel stasis decks should have either almost no creatures or plenty of them. Having a smaller amount probably makes each creature a magnet for removal.

Sure, I'd be up to play test. I am in LA so that means pacific time. I wouldn't worry about specific matchups yet but rather a general feel for the deck. Assuming the deck is solid, the sideboard and quantities of each individual card can later be tuned for a specific metagame.
I got back to 4 E.Tutor. Brainstorm is better then Ponder for me due to redundant Stasis/E.Tutor and generally to fix your hand pre Stasis. The fetch/dual count was adjusted as well for more shuffles and I made some changes to the sideboard.
Maybe I should test Sterling Grove as a silver bullet in the 4th E.Tutor slot.

My favorite program atm is Magic Workstation (you can find everything you need here: http://mws.mtgbr.com/index-us.html). Feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions.

My updated decklist:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Tundra
4 [PS] Forsaken City
4 [PS] Treva's Ruins

// Creatures
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [A] Stasis
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [MM] Thwart
2 [US] Exploration
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [MM] Misdirection
2 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
SB: 1 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Tom
05-19-2013, 04:32 PM
First of all let me tell you that this is my first post and so far I have not figured out how to appropriately implement card suggestions. Sorry for that. I could need some help here :)


I have been reading this and numerous similar threads for a while now since I really would like to give the green blue version of stasis a shot.

First, I had been very turned on by running Root Maze but you guys seemed to have relevant doubts about it, so I decided to cut it. However, today I came across this card:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191577

Do you think it would be smart to play this one in combination with Root Maze and Stasis?

mifme
05-20-2013, 10:41 AM
Ok, for a start i LOVE stasis and have been trying to make it work in a modern Legacy enviroment for a while, with the printing of Ral Zarek i think it might just maybe be ok again. I have only just started to rebuild a list and have no testing results yet but have read a few interesting nuggets on this thread so heres a couple of observations/tricks that i think might be useful.

ok you obviously play Ral Zarek and stasis, so with these two out it has been noted that Ral can pay for stasis indefinatly while tapping something of your opponants, the kill here is often debated but can you just use the -2 to bolt your opp on the turns you play a land ? yes you miss a tap down of one of your opponants permanents but you could obviously time it so you play land the turn they dont play anything hence you dont have to tap anything of theirs, and the land you played pays for stasis, this seems a slow kill but pretty easy. Your opp is on 20 life therfore you need 7 land drops to deal 21 points of damage. Also this tactic is also applicable to Ral's ultimate, you play a land for the turn (which is your upkeep for stasis next turn) allowing you to ultimate Ral to see how many extra turns you get, if you get none then fair enough you just use you land you played to pay for stasis and do it again at some point. One of the interesting things here though with this tactic is if you do get extra turns you can let stasis die obviously and play another one giveing you all your mana untapped. This is the oportunity to play good old feldons cane to shuffle you graveyard into your library so you can keep going without decking yourself.

I also like the idea of crucible of worlds in this deck as combined with Zuran Orb you can gain life every turn by sacing a land and then re play the land again with crucible to pay for stasis, this also frees up Ral Zarek for a turn to bolt or ultimate.

So my starter for 10 would be :

4 Ral Zarek
4 stasis
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Zuran Ob

then pack the rest in a RU control shell, maybe considering fire/ice, lightning bolt, pyroclasm as well as the obvious force of will, spell peirce, daze, thwart etc..

interestingly making Ral turn 4 tapping out with Daze in hand is pretty good followed up by stasis the next turn.
i'll make a deck when i get my Ral Zareks and see how it goes.

p.s. i'm not keen on the green as i think a dedicated RU solution would be much more solid.

Regards

SpoCk0nd0pe
05-20-2013, 03:35 PM
First of all let me tell you that this is my first post and so far I have not figured out how to appropriately implement card suggestions. Sorry for that. I could need some help here :)


I have been reading this and numerous similar threads for a while now since I really would like to give the green blue version of stasis a shot.

First, I had been very turned on by running Root Maze but you guys seemed to have relevant doubts about it, so I decided to cut it. However, today I came across this card:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191577

Do you think it would be smart to play this one in combination with Root Maze and Stasis?

While not having tested this, it seems like you build a 3 card combo to run Stasis. It might work, but I don't think it's optimal because it's easy to disrupt. My reasons for dropping Root Maze are posted some pages back. The main two are: 1. It doesn't help vs aggro when on the draw (the Nacatl/DRS will still be there) and 2. It breaks the synergies I found most powerful (Quirion Ranger, Daze, Thwart, Lair Lands).

Canarias4life
05-21-2013, 06:41 AM
mifme what deck list do you recommend ?

bruizar
05-21-2013, 07:56 AM
I think the ideal deck wants to use multiple Ral Zareks yet maybe only 2 or 3 Stasis. You can't resolve a Stasis early in the game and expect to gain much value out of it.

At 3 lands, you have a buffer of 0 turns to miss your land drop, at 4 lands you have a buffer of 1 turn to miss your land drop, but with 4 lands you'd rather cast Ral Zarek or Jace. Above 4 lands, Stasis becomes very powerful. Stasis is not an early game card so you really have no reason to play a full playset of it. The ideal deck for Ral Zarek stasis is therefore a deck that can utilize the 2 lightning bolts well. If you want to use a full playset of Stasis, you can, but you would have to go with a Quirion Rangers / Hidden Strings approach.

Canarias4life
05-21-2013, 08:17 AM
+1 bruizar I agree. We need to play stasis only if we have ral zarek so fifth turn, if we dont play daze, therefore I think we cant play daze. We need to play every turn land to play fast ral zarek and we have to play removal or something to give us time