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Nihil Credo
02-08-2008, 08:50 AM
Karach (UWB Enchantment Control)

CaNGD Submission by Nihil



Table of Contents

1.0 Introduction and Background
2.0 The List

2.1 The Cards
2.2 The Sideboard
2.3 Cards Previously Tested
2.4 Other Cards Considered
3.0 Playing the Deck
4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses
5.0 The Matchups
6.0 Conclusion, Thanks and Lingering Questions1.0 Introduction and Background

I've always considered myself more of a deck developer than a designer; more of an engineer than an architect. I like to think I'm pretty good at working on the rough edges of a deck, at figuring out whether a card should be a 3-of or a 2-of, or which of two very close cards fits better in the overall game plan.

But coming up with something thoroughly new? Not my best skill, to be sure. I had made a lot of decks, like everyone, but those that didn't blow were always ports or alternative approaches to pre-existing archetypes.

Yet the CaNGD (I'll always put the D in there, sorry mods) was too tempting. And after all, I had managed over the last year to become at least a decent countermagic user from scratch - I could very well take a shot at creative deckbuilding, right?

So I kept a notepad (or Notepad) around more or less 24/7 for the last month, writing down anything I got that vaguely resembled an idea, and then firing MWS on it almost every other evening.

Deckbuilding is funny.

You come up out quite a few lists that all start from solidly estabilished design principles, that employ only the best cards in the format.

And they all suck. I'm not talking 'still somewhat inconsistent' suck, I'm talking "how can this Black/White board control deck with oodles of removal barely edge 50/50 against goddamn Threshold?" Or "ok, testing shows these Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers can indeed go the distance if my opponent does not play Landstill, Goblins, any combo, Stax, or Treefolk. Cool."

Then, during one of said MWS sessions, you pick up one of the most untested list you have lying in your N&D folder. Something built around a crap rare. You ask a testing partner to just indulge you for a couple of games, the time for his dual land-winning Threshold list to just point out why the concept can't work. At least it'll be a useful lesson.

And you thrash him. 9-1, if I recall correctly (preboard - there was no SB yet). You're incredulous, but hey, it feels great to have something to work with. You set yourself to the job: fixing the curve, rethinking the draw engine, nit-picking over silver bullets, testing different win conditions.

Until the final day comes, and you don't have any more time for fixin'. It's time to post and let the work be judged.


2.0 The List
// Mana
4 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp

3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

4 [PR] Tundra
3 [PR] Underground Sea

2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Dig
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [PR] Brainstorm
3 [VI] Impulse
2 [RAV] Clutch of the Undercity

// Control
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
1 [OD] Kirtar's Desire

3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [MOR] Declaration of Naught

1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 [10E] Story Circle
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

2 [LG] Moat

4 [PR] Force of Will

// Win
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

3 [CS] Zur the Enchanter

1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 Propaganda or Engineered Plague (see below)
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [TE] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics

[B]2.1 The Cards

1) 2 Chrome Mox - I'll get flak for this one, so I might as well get it out of the way. I started with three, and I found out that while seeing one was often welcome, the second one practically never was. What made me pick the middle road instead of just cutting it out was that I tended to almost always cast the Mox on turn two or three - usually to get a faster Zur or Moat - and when I did, it was usually a fantastic play (T3 Moat vs. aggro, for example). So I just took the more careful step, and the dreaded double-mox draw got dialed down to a rare occurrence. As of now, I don't plan on giving up on the semi-frequent power boosts.

Also, for those who like arguments from authority, the "miser's Mox" (singleton) has been pretty popular in recent PTQ-winning Extended Doran lists, and has received the Flores Seal of Approval. So there.

2) Impulse - Originally it was Ponder, which in the abstract is the better card, being half the cost for 50-75% of the effect (depending on how much you value instant speed and cleaning the top of your library). But this left the curve too deep at 1cc and too shallow at 2, which was bad both for my own Counterbalance and for opposing Chalices. I started looking at 2cc options, and after a brief test of Think Twice (horribly expensive) I settled on Impulse, which proved to work lovely in a deck so full of conditionality. My only regret is that it doesn't fuel Hoofprints.

3) Zur the Enchanter - Mongoose-blocking ass, check. Resilient to non-StP removal, check (hello Demise, Smother, Bolt). Flies, check. Good Force and Mox pitch, check. Gets you every turn a [Counterbalance/unconditional removal/win condition/lock piece], for free? Hell yeah.

The main downside: a mighty 20-turn clock, so a kill condition in name only. That's why you run Hoofprints and Dragon, though. Besides, he's not much slower than Decree of Justice - though I guess that's no great accomplishment.

Incidentally: for those who aren't too familiar with the rules, Zur triggers upon attacking, which means that the trigger resolves and puts the enchantment into play (without giving your opp. a chance to respond) before blockers are declared. You can attack into a blocker, fetch an Oblivion Ring, a thresh'ed Kirtar's Desire, or even a Threads of Disloyalty (Serra Avenger, Stag tokens) and your Zur will go nicely unblocked.

4) Moat - I copied this opening post from Phantom (who copied it from Isamaru) so I'll just recycle his description: MVP. House. Fantastic. Wrecks Thresh. Wrecks Goblins. Can wreck Storm Combo (and I'm assuming it's very good vs. Ichy and Breakfast). Hurts Dragon Stompy. Annoys Landstill. It limits our options a bit as far a creatures go - ok, let's stop here, because the fun thing is that in this deck Moat doesn't limit my creature options at all. It just stops me from running manlands, which I don't really want to anyway.

Karach used to run 3 Clutches and a singleton Moat (along with other targets like Decree which eventually failed). But I hated losing games because the broken 2WW card got in my graveyard somehow, so I then experimented with a Clutch-less, three-Moat configuaration; this, however, negatively affected the deck's consistency too much. So I went back to Clutch, but cut one for a "backup" Moat.

5) Clutch of the Undercity - Lovely card. Fits beautifully in the curve. Keeps the deck consistent by fetching Zur, Moat, and the postboard silver bullet(s). Pitches nicely to Force and Mox. And no-one's better at bouncing Counterbalance EOT (with a complimentary Lava Spike), then dropping your own Counterbalance.

6) Oblivion Ring - I love this card. When designing a control deck, I tend to be a little paranoid and want to have a plan against everything: these critters let me run maindeck artifact/enchantment removal without running dead cards. Unlike Engineered Explosives, they don't blow up my own board and can be fetched with Zur.

And yes, you need two. Needle can be a bitch.

7) Counterbalance - This doesn't need explanation, just a little note that this isn't quite as insane as you're probably used to: the curve is 23/12/9/4/7/4/0/1, so it's still a bit short on the two-spot. On the plus side, it's unusually good at countering 4CC bastards like Enforcer, Dragon, Armageddon, Wrath, or FoF.

8) Declaration of Naught - By far the weakest spot in the deck, this nerfed Meddling Mage from Morningtide nonetheless fulfills a couple of critical roles preboard: it protects Karach's permanents from Pernicious Deed, and it stops the increasingly common recursion shenaningans: Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins, and sometimes Genesis.

I'm always tempted to just replace this one with Impulse or Sensei's Divining Top #4, both of which would be quite welcome. But even when it sucks, it's so easy to pitch to Force, Mox, or to Brainstorm away that you find it hard to be too angry at it.

9) Eternal Dragon - Having a nigh-unkillable win condition is nice and all, but the primary point of this card was to fill the gap between 23 mana sources (which was a bit tight) and 24 (a bit loose). A candidate for cutting in favour of a fourth Top, which fulfills a similar role as a pseudo-cantrip; however, I'd also be cutting 33% of my non-Zur, non-Threads win conditions, which makes me seriously nervous.

2.2 Sideboard Choices
Extirpate - The presence of Clutch isn't a point in favour of Leyline, which is pretty terrible on turn 4. As usual, when piloting a control deck that always takes double-digit turns to win the game, I favour the versatile long-term card as my graveyard hate of choice.

Meddling Mage - Although it has a multitude of other uses, Krosan Grip is undoubtedly Pikula's #1 target. That bitch of a card can really steal your wins from nowhere, and Mage is the best way to deal with it we have - pity that Declaration of Naught isn't simply a triggered ability (no, Null Chamber isn't better, btw).

Other than that, anyone who's played 4C Landstill knows what a wonderful asset this guy is against basically anything that isn't aggro.

Engineered Plague vs. Propaganda - Really, this is a metagame choice. Mainly, Propaganda is considerably worse against Cephalid Breakfast and against Goblins, since they can still Siege-Gang or Sharpshoot you through it. On the plus side, it's better against Ichorid, and it's decidedly better against all other forms of aggro and aggro-disruption (from X-Stompy to Suicide Black), as well as against a shitload of decks where you won't bring either in anyway (Loam, Landstill, etc).

Pick one of them. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to give a default build, I'd go with 3 Propaganda and 1 Plague, because the latter can still be good even when tutored up with Zur in the mid-game.

Karmic Justice and Replenish - Also known as "Deed insurance". One is prevention and tutorable with Zur, the other is retribution and can be grabbed with Clutch. And that's it, really.

Back to Basics - A wrecking ball against difficult matchups like Landstill and Loam.

Aura of Silence - It itches a bit to have to just rely on 2 Oblivion Ring plus the countermagic suite to handle problematic permanents... but if you really have to cut something to fit in the fifth anti-aggro or anti-graveyard hate, or the fourth Mage, this is it.
2.3 Cards Previously Tested
Decree of Justice, Control Magic, Faith's Fetters, Cranial Extraction - Maindeck or sideboard silver bullets that didn't stand the test of consistency.

Sacred Mesa - Inferior to Hoofprints in every possible way and then some.

Engineered Explosives - Not so gamebreaking that I wanted to endure having to hold back permanents for them. Can still be made to fit in if you're worried about combo, though.

Wrath of God - It's not much that it kills Zur as much as that what Moat can't deal with, the spot removal suite can. It would take a lot of Vindicates running around to make me want to run this over more Moats.
2.4 Other Cards Considered

Enlightened Tutor - I'm sure everyone who's made it this far has thought of the card. I have explored the uses of Tutor, which is a damn fine card. It brings the deck in an entirely different direction, which seems to ultimately end in ZviStill. Which is a frickin' powerful deck, surely better than this one... for a PT scene that was (supposed to be) swamped in Threshold and Landstill. It doesn't hold equally as well against a more varied metagame. But that's something for another thread.

Pernicious Deed - Okay, you think "enchantment with cc 3 or less" and you think of Deed. Understandable. But with Zur, you want a lot of cheap enchantments, and that is Very Bad with Deed. If you can think of a way around this conundrum, please let me know.

Idyllic Tutor - Blech.


3.0 Playing the Deck


This is a straightforward control deck - your aim is to stop your opponent from winning first and foremost. Moat and Counterbalance are the two pillars of this game plan, with Zur and Clutch solidifying it. Some random tips:

- If you have Top, go for Hoofprints early - a flying 4/4 every two turns is a nice clock, and can block well if needed.

- Do not play a turn 1 Chrome Mox unless you know what you're pitching and what you can do with the extra mana.

- If you have Top, conserve your cantrips for the purpose of Force pitching - you have plenty of shuffle effects that will show you new cards.

- Pay attention to your lands. If you expect to make use of Story Circle, remember to fetch lots of white.


4.0 Strengths and Weaknesses

Strength:
- About as solid a manabase as you can wish for in a three-colour deck

- Overall strong Threshold matchup
Weaknesses:


- Not as consistent as one might expect from a blue deck

- Susceptibility to board sweepers
5.0 The Matchups


1) Threshold

Even if the breakout performance was partly a fluke, the subsequent testing has shown Karach to indeed have a very solid advantage against the king. Everything you do is extremely relevant, and you can fight them well on nearly every angle of attack: mana denial, Counterbalance, and creatures. Mongoose can be tough to answer, but you still have Moat, Circle: Green, a blocking Zur, or even a fetched (non-targeting) Threads. If they can't win before your 4th-5th land drop off sheer tempo, the game is all but yours.

I ran the deck mostly against my usual UGB list, but I've done a few matches vs. the recent MoonThresh one, too (though I'm not experienced or even comfortable with that style of Threshold). Blood Moon wasn't really a problem, between basics and Moxes, but multiple Fledgling Dragons were a pain in the ass; fortunately Counterbalance handles them better than usual.

SB guidelines (because no plan applies for both UGR BTStifleWaste and UGW NeedleBalance): Since they *always* bring in Grip, you want some Meddling Mages; Declaration of Naught automatically comes out. The other slots are to pick depending on what you face; I generally cut removal if I put them on a list with 10 or less creatures. Back to Basics is clearly insane if unexpected, but if they get the chance to fetch 2-3 basic lands it loses a lot of its power - sometimes it's better to take it out in G3.

Regardless of what you face, it's almost a given that their SB options will be better than yours, so you're more susceptible to lose G2 to some sort of blowout (like an unexpected Armageddon). I still pulled off positive numbers postboard, though.

2) Goblins

The objective in game 1 is a hard-lock with Moat and Story Circle both on the table (or, if Vial hasn't landed, Declaration of Naught naming Siege-Gang Commander); to that end you have a lot of targeted removal, but no sweepers, so pick your targets well. There's a bit of guesswork involved in choosing whether to spend your mana on killing Goblins or digging, but other than that you the matchup is very straightforward until you drop a lock piece and your opponent has to find a way around it. I'm 4-5 in testing, which seems about right with how I 'feel' the matchup. Note that the (Rb) list I used ran 3 Siege-Gang Commanders; if there are less of them, it should improve.

Postboard Zur becomes massively more important, because now it fetches multiple Plagues (or Propagandas), which means you are less scared of their few copies of Krosan Grip; also, they probably sided out their removal. The match shifts in your favour, because what you side out is useless crap, but it still didn't feel thoroughly solid to me (despite a 6-3 result).

SB: -3 Counterbalance, -1 Declaration of Naught, -1 Hoofprints of the Stag, +4 Plague, +2 Mage (for Grip and trading). If you use Propagandas, leave in the Declaration and at least one Ring (I'm not sure what to cut for those, though: maybe Top on the draw).

It feels awkward to bring Mage in, but Ring is darn slow, and it can save your Zur by eating a Weirding for the cause.

3) Landstill

It might be my bias towards control of all kinds, but I've found this matchup to be thoroughly enjoyable and very strategic. You're a moderate aggressor here, using your faster though less powerful draw spells to lay down lock pieces and get a grip of the game. Counterbalance, Zur, and Moat are your main threats; stick one of these and follow up with Hoofprints or Dragon (I realize this sounds statistically difficult, but this isn't happening on turn 1). Declaration of Naught absolutely shines here, shutting down at least half of their board sweepers.
Interestingly, Clutch is often hardcast in this matchup, since even on turn 4 Boomeranging a land (and netting a free Spike) is a considerable tempo boost in a matchup like this one.

Overall, you're somewhat unfavoured pre-board (testing is 6-8 vs. 4C). I would expect the UWx version to be considerably easier to face, due to their lack of Pernicious Deed. Also, I don't run Tarmogoyf in my Landstill builds, but if they do then rejoice: it's a nice use for your removal, and it usually takes the place of extra countermagic or sweepers.

Sideboarding plan:
-3 StP, -1 Story Circle, -1 Kirtar's Desire, -1 Threads of Disloyalty, -2 Oblivion Ring, -1 Moat; +1 Karmic Justice, +1 Replenish, +1 Back to Basics, +1 Aura of Silence, +2 Extirpate, +3 Meddling Mage; vs. UWx you can skip on Justice and Replenish. You may want to skip on the Extirpates in favour of StoP if they choose to bring Meddling Mages of their own in (which is IMO a mistake).

Post-side you have the same shell with much better tools: Back to Basics in particular is a wrecking ball, so protecting Zur for a turn becomes a much more interesting idea. Aside from that, with Mage and Extirpate in the picture, your gameplan can be summed as "Go for the sweepers, boo!". Counter them, Mage them, Extirpate them, Declarate them Naughty, threaten a counter-Armageddon, recover from them, whatever. Do this and you've gone a long-way towards winning your postboard game.

4) Belcher

By any standard of serious testing, this should be TES. But I can't play TES for shit, and I don't hang around with people evil enough to pilot that deck, so I just picked up the bot-deck to get something resembling a combo matchup to write about.

Surprise, surprise, what you have to do to win is: 1) Draw Force early; 2) Assemble CounterTop early. And that's about it, really. I've played a grand total of four pre-board games before getting bored; I suppose with a bit of math you could figure out your exact chances, if you wanted. They're not great preboard, anyway: you don't have a fast clock or board sweepers, other than a lucky turn 3 Moat.

SB: +3 Mage, +3 Extirpate, +4 Plague/Propaganda, +1 Aura of Silence, -4 StP, -1 Kirtar's Desire, -1 Threads, -1 Circle, -2 Moat, -2 Clutch of the Undercity

Postboard you get the 'hate bonus': I'll leave the exercise of figuring out the percentages to you, I'm honestly bored at the sole idea.

5) Ichorid

Game 1 you don't have great chances. Your relevant cards are Force, StP, and a quick Moat (which you must draw, because Transmuting automatically calls a Therapy); a few other cards can kill a zombie if need be. 3-7 in testing; with a better pilot than me it would almost certainly be worse.

Postboard you get your hate, but more importantly you get rid of the baggage. To be exact:

+4 Plague/Propaganda, +4 Extirpate, +2 Mage, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Kirtar's Desire, -1 Circle, -1 Declaration, -1 Threads, -2 Oblivion Ring, -1 Hoofprints

As a guideline, Extirpate is for Bridge, Plague is for Horrors, Mage is for Return. These aren't even close to be set in stone, though, so adapt to the situation. If you've played Landstill, the matchup will feel very familiar to you - except that you have some better tools: Moat to halt 90% of the offense and Zur to fetch Plaganda after Plaganda. Overall the postboard matchup favours you, especially if they have bounce rather than enchantment removal; just don't throw it away by doing anything stupid like keeping a hand without hate.

6) Others

Some quick evaluations from random MWS games, or 1-of testing sessions:

- Black Aggro: Rough. Vindicate is public enemy #1 for Karach; if they don't run it, though, then you can handle the less broken openings. But turn 1 Dark Ritual is still more scary than t1 Lackey. I hope you board Propaganda.

- Burn: Counterbalance, Story Circle, do not get manascrewed = win.

- Aggro Loam: Counterbalance not as good as hoped. Moat lovely, though. Note that this was against my build (with MD Chalice, Assault, Dreams, and 11 creatures).

- Stax: Oblivion Ring is MVP and should be saved for Crucible of Worlds; also keep a 4cc spell on top with Counterbalance to stop Armageddon (or use Declaration: IRL there are many less Ravages of War). Stealing morphed Angel = sexy.

- Dragon Stompy: Win the die roll; fetch basics. That and a decent amount of removal will handle the deck.


6.0 Conclusion, Thanks and Lingering Questions

Conclusion? Thanks? Eh, screw those. You're bored already.

A couple of NFAQ:

What would you run if the minimum deck size was 61?

The fourth Top. No questions. It's ridiculously easy to reset and it 'turns on' both Counterbalance and Hoofprints. If I were less of a pussy, I'd cut something from the maindeck to fit it, probably the Eternal Dragon or the second Ring; but I like having lots of Plan B's, even at the cost of making my Plan A less consistent.

Why play this over Landstill?

It scoops to completely different hate.

What's with the name?

This deck *knows* its purpose.

Cavius The Great
02-08-2008, 12:23 PM
Great decklist Nihil. I'm glad to see someone else, besides myself, stumble upon Declaration of Naught and realize it's a good card. It's been awhile, and I'm glad to see someone brake Zur the Enchanter. I too have tried, but ditched the entire idea and dedicated my time to other projects. I'm glad to see someone have success with the card.

from Cairo
02-08-2008, 03:40 PM
This deck looks really awesome/fun. Your mana base seems really solid too.


Incidentally: for those who aren't too familiar with the rules, Zur triggers upon attacking, which means that the trigger resolves and puts the enchantment into play (without giving your opp. a chance to respond) before blockers are declared. You can attack into a blocker, fetch an Oblivion Ring, a thresh'ed Kirtar's Desire, or even a Threads of Disloyalty (Serra Avenger, Stag tokens) and your Zur will go nicely unblocked.

Being unfamiliar with the rules, or more so this card, this seems really nuts. Whenever I had looked at Zur before I had just looked at is as a when it does combat damage or w/e like most cards are, but the fact it triggers before the declare blockers step is pretty huge.

Anyways nice job on this, I look forward to seeing where the deck goes.

Sanguine Voyeur
02-08-2008, 03:53 PM
Why not a single "protection" card for Zur, such as Shielding Plax or Spectral Shield?

As a semi related side note, the Auras are put directly in play and do not to target. You can Treads a Mongoose if you really need to.

Just thought that should be said.

Nihil Credo
02-08-2008, 05:03 PM
Why not a single "protection" card for Zur, such as Shielding Plax or Spectral Shield?

If they have allowed Zur to untap and swing, it means they couldn't resolve a StoP anyway.

Plus, they're just horrible cards to see in hand (the Plax less so, but still terrible).


As a semi related side note, the Auras are put directly in play and do not to target. You can Treads a Mongoose if you really need to.

Been there, done that. I thought I had written that somewhere in the OP; thanks for noting it!

Osse
02-08-2008, 07:27 PM
Why not a Control Magic? I mean, as long as you're stealing stuff, might as well be able to take their Tombstalker, or something from D. Stompy, or even Exalted. Also, is extirpate better than Leyline here? I mean, obviously it's moot in reference to the combo matchups, but in the Loam matchups, it might be something to think about. Just curious really.

Thanks for the mighty Zur seeing play.

P.S: PM me what you came up with in Regard to Tombstalker+Goyf? :P

94teen
02-08-2008, 09:33 PM
Why not a Control Magic? I mean, as long as you're stealing stuff, might as well be able to take their Tombstalker, or something from D. Stompy, or even Exalted. Also, is extirpate better than Leyline here? I mean, obviously it's moot in reference to the combo matchups, but in the Loam matchups, it might be something to think about. Just curious really.

Thanks for the mighty Zur seeing play.

P.S: PM me what you came up with in Regard to Tombstalker+Goyf? :P

Because Zur can only get enchantments with CMC 3 or less.

My biggest question is: Where's Ground Seal? That's pretty good against a lot of combo, and can come down fairly early or be a singleton that you wouldn't mind having maindeck, because it at least cantrips.

Maybe add Deed and Replenish? I know it's kinda roundabout, but it gives you a way to wrath the board and regain your position, which seems pretty good.

Nihil Credo
02-08-2008, 10:25 PM
My biggest question is: Where's Ground Seal? That's pretty good against a lot of combo, and can come down fairly early or be a singleton that you wouldn't mind having maindeck, because it at least cantrips.

Interesting option; I'd have to use Leyline over Extirpate, but that's doable.

Ground Seal is actually terrible against most combo (Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't target), and it's just a Mage on Dread Return as far as Ichorid is concerned, but for a 1G cantrip it's pretty damn strong against Aggro Loam and Cephalid Breakfast. Not a wide range of decks, but in the right metagame it could pay off as a singleton.

Only... splashing another colour for that? Unexciting, to say the least. Green doesn't have much else to offer, the best card being Sylvan Library. If it cost GU it would ironically be much better, because you could just not run any green and pitch it to Force or Mox if you happened to draw it.


Maybe add Deed and Replenish? I know it's kinda roundabout, but it gives you a way to wrath the board and regain your position, which seems pretty good.

Deed + Replenish means you're paying a surplus of 3W and a card to not get wrecked by your own sweeper. Ouch. Also, if you draw only one half of the combo? One is unreliable and the other is likely dead (preboard). I'm not even touching the manabase issues.

I've pondered a lot over a possible Pernicious Deed use of Zur. Unfortunately, I had to accept that the cards just aren't there: right now, there are exactly two 3cc or less enchantments that have good synergy with "blown up your own board" - I'll let you guess which two.

BlinX
02-09-2008, 12:34 AM
Would one of them be Hatching Plans? lol

Isamaru
02-09-2008, 01:08 AM
My Zur the Enchanter deck before Oblivion Ring was printed was:

Riptide Lad - Zur Variation

2 Riptide Laboratory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Zur the Enchanter

4 Paralyze
1 Shielding Plax
2 Sleeper's Robe
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Propaganda (could be Oblivion Ring)
1 Copy Enchantment (could be Oblivion Ring)

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Riptide Laboratory is one of my signatures... I probably put it in too many decks, but it is what I was somewhat building around here.

My combo was to use Zur to beat the opponent by locking them down with Solitary Confinement + a Sleeper's Robe. You first find Shielding Plax, then Confinement, then Sleeper's Robe (which was usually already out on a Sage of Epityr) and proceed to attack over and over, protected by a Confinement "lock." You could also sometimes do this without Zur.

The Plax, Robe, and Propaganda are pitchable, and Sage of Epityr is what makes the Auras not "dead" before you have Zur - otherwise drawing Plax sucks without FoW to pitch it to or Sage to put it on. More importantly, Sage with Sleeper's Robe is actually pretty strong.

The key to the deck was that Paralyze was actually a decent StP alternative. Sage + Confidant (+ Robe) + Top is enough to find a Zur. I think Clutch of the Undercity is excessive.

I would include probably 3-4x Oblivion Ring if I were to pick the deck back up, and maybe Hoofprints of the Stag.

My sideboard would probably include:

Aura of Silence
Engineered Plague
Island Sanctuary
Threads of Disloyalty or Mind Harness
Declaration of Naught

I like the idea of Back to Basics. I sadly couldnt find room for Daybreak Coronet... in any case and in any way I say it, Daybreak Coronet is extremely hard to play with.

Using my format isn't a problem - in many ways, it's good to uniform the layout so that the content itself isn't distracted from by it. Keep up the good work and the testing, Nihil. :smile:

Nihil Credo
02-09-2008, 01:41 AM
Confinement + Robe? Interesting. But your aggro-control approach, I think, suffers from a design flaw: if the Confinement lock plan fails for whatever reason, you have to attack your opponent with 11 pansy Wizards - not an easy feat by any means! Hoofprints would definintely help with that, and probably Tarmogoyf wouldn't hurt either ;)



We now return you to your regularly scheduled CaNGD entry

georgjorge
02-09-2008, 08:07 AM
Looks pretty nice ! But you really sure about those Clutch of the Undercity ? Spending the third turn for a sorcery speed tutor always makes me cringe...isn't the digging enough to find either Zur or Moat in time ?

And my own junky recommendation: Lightning Greaves ! Gets you your enchantment a full turn faster, and if your opponent is tapped out, his removal is useless forever. But of course its viability would fully depend on how reliable you can get a Zur in your hand by turn four.

Finn
02-09-2008, 09:10 AM
Know what Nihil? I don't really know what the hell your deck is. I don't know what those cards do.

That's awesome!

I sincerely hope that the idea gets picked up if for no other reason that just to broaden the meta a heckuvalot with just this deck.

Bravo. I have to go look up some cards.

Mordenkaynen
02-09-2008, 01:31 PM
Yea, Cavius The Great has said what I thought first.
Well, some questions:

- The deck plays many enchantments that means that you put not many cards in your graveyard. Have you thought about it? I mean cards like shrines or energy field? Well, named cards are not very good, but the trend may be interesting. (rhetorical)

- Pillory is too slow?

- Would scroll rack be siutable here? It's a good card if you play a toolbox deck. Also, can be insane with hoofprints.

- May be add one Serra's Sanctum, for story circle and moat?

Peter_Rotten
02-09-2008, 02:59 PM
- Would scroll rack be siutable here? It's a good card if you play a toolbox deck. Also, can be insane with hoofprints.

How so? Could you explain that further?

KillemallCFH
02-09-2008, 03:01 PM
How so? Could you explain that further?I think he means that Scroll Rack allows you to easily put cards in your hand back into your library so that they can be searched for with Zur.

Nihil Credo
02-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Looks pretty nice ! But you really sure about those Clutch of the Undercity ? Spending the third turn for a sorcery speed tutor always makes me cringe...isn't the digging enough to find either Zur or Moat in time?

Short version: no.

Long version: you could afford to just draw your way to a copy of Zur, which isn't essential to win the game anyway. Moat, however, is a different story: you want to have that card soon and reliably. As I mentioned, I did try out a version with three Moats and one extra Top, but it was just worse than the current version.

Extra comment: it's totally worth it to spend your turn 3 on a tutor if your turn 4 nearly wins the game on the spot, especially if you're on a clock.


And my own junky recommendation: Lightning Greaves ! Gets you your enchantment a full turn faster, and if your opponent is tapped out, his removal is useless forever. But of course its viability would fully depend on how reliable you can get a Zur in your hand by turn four.That looks pretty unlikely. If I drop a Lightning Greaves on turn two with no board, wouldn't a decent opponent immediately suspect shenanigans and keep instant removal mana open? Add in the myriad of situations where Greaves will be dead (compared to Plax, which can at least cantrip or pitch to something), and it's a solid thumbs down from me. Sorry.

@Finn = Thank you!


- The deck plays many enchantments that means that you put not many cards in your graveyard. Have you thought about it? I mean cards like shrines or energy field? Well, named cards are not very good, but the trend may be interesting. (rhetorical)

The Shrines aren't very good indeed, but Energy Field is very very interesting - a FoW-pitchable Solitary Confinement with a different drawback. I like how neither the death of Stag tokens nor that of Zur (which will practically always be via StP) would affect Field.

I missed that card somehow - I'll put it in for the next round of testing (as a 61st card, if anyone cares to know... that's my default process when I first need to try out a new card without screwing up the rest of the deck).


- Pillory is too slow?It's fine, it's just that Oblivion Ring is mostly better.


- Would scroll rack be siutable here? It's a good card if you play a toolbox deck. Also, can be insane with hoofprints.Unfortunately, Scroll Rack doesn't say "draw", so it doesn't work with Hoofprints.

In general, more cheap draw magic works well in any blue deck; the question is what to cut for it.


- May be add one Serra's Sanctum, for story circle and moat?Nah, multiple white mana is pretty easy. The foremost candidates for a nonbasic land slot are Volrath's Stronghold and Karakas (in that order), which I plan on trying out soon.

Peter_Rotten
02-10-2008, 09:18 AM
In my testing of this deck, I found the following:

Landstill match: Not too pretty. I actually got whupped by what I thought was Landstill but turned out to be the CaNG entry "Dreadstill." I was happy to try to grab his late Dreadnought with Threads, but alas, he countered.

Dragonstompy: Unsure yet. The build I was playing against didn't seem to be running Trini - which is a huge mistake IMO. Anyway, this deck has NO answer to red Akroma! :eek: I found that out the hard way. Ok, ok, I'll give you Story Circle, but it's only 1. Game 2 I Meddling Maged that bitch. Screw her for stealing a win. Anyway, if you can answer an early threat, you should be OK.

Thresh: Smacked it a little bit. An early Story Circle on green proved problematic for the Thresh player.

Affinity: I thought I was totally in control of this match - Moat had a nice lockdown. Unfortunately, Zur is a crappy clock and the Affinity player set up a Fling trap for me. With Cranial in play, I was forced to counter an Ornithopter (of all things) since I had spent my ORings on Disciples, my Desire on another Ornithopter, and my Declaration of NOT naming Ravager. God, searching up Energy Flux would have been EpicLulz.

Overall impressions.

Zur: In a odd way, Zur makes me feel like I'm playing Survival. Bear with me! Each turn I get to search out a silver bullet. Zur really is JUST stupid. He can be so broken that sometimes he feels like "win-more." "Oh look, I have board control now, so I guess I'll put out another Hoofprints."

Declaration of NOT! This card has been totally unneeded in my limited testing. Once Zur is going, I think there could be other more useful things to find. Simply a third ORing may work. Another Threads? Main Propaganda?

Brainstorming more Enchantments:

Mind Harness?
Supression Field?
Solitary Confinement?
Energy Field?
Parallax Nexus (ohh! so janky!)?
Phyrexian Arena (ok, now I'm just being silly)?
Dystopia?
But you really sure about those Clutch of the Undercity ? Spending the third turn for a sorcery speed tutor always makes me cringe...isn't the digging enough to find either Zur or Moat in time ?

I totally thought they were crap in my testing. Until I was in a losing postion and figured I'd Transmute for the hell of it... Oh wait... It gets Zur! (My actual thoughts in a game!) Yeah, I'm now a fan since it gets the UBW Survival for Enchantments.

Peter_Rotten
02-10-2008, 11:56 AM
Quick double post for an unrelated issue. I think we need to find some sort of better win condition and some better 3cc or less enchants.

I was looking at the Green Hidden critters, but they seem very underwhelming. We'd have to butcher the mana base, the opponent can control their activation, and they have no synergy with Moat.

Next, I thought about the Words cycle. Words of Wilding butchers the mana base and is ruined by our own Moat. Words of War may simply not be worth the skipped draw. Words of Worship may be an interesting option for life gain.

I'm really want to find an enchant that doubles as a quick win-con. Hoofprints may not be cutting it. Hmmm, what if we put some sort of Aura in there to boost Zur? Maybe something like Sinister Strength? Strength of Lunacy (pro-white is cute)? Phyrexian Boon could provide flexibility.

More Brainstorms:

Animate Dead could be an intersting card. Actually, Necromancy is probably better.
Seal of Doom
Desolation! EpicLulz indeed. It would probably hurt us more than the opponent though.

Sanguine Voyeur
02-10-2008, 12:16 PM
If you want to speed up the finishing blow, you could use any combination of Pemmnin's Aura, Griffin Guide, Daybreak Cornet, or Battle Mastery.

Peter_Rotten
02-10-2008, 12:26 PM
Pemmin's Aura is probably the best, although I'm unsure about tying up my mana to pump Zur. I like to keep my mana open.

Alfred
02-10-2008, 01:24 PM
This deck looks interesting. A lot of people were making fun of me for even thinking about using Zur in ANY deck.

Have you considered using a singleton Phyrexian Arena? Arena puts more counters on Hoofprints, is fetchable by Zur, and is generally just a good card to have in a dedicated control deck. The life loss isn't insignifigant, but you are getting Stag tokens twice as fast, so it would probably balance things out.

Nihil Credo
02-10-2008, 02:52 PM
In my testing of this deck, I found the following:

Landstill match: Not too pretty. I actually got whupped by what I thought was Landstill but turned out to be the CaNG entry "Dreadstill." I was happy to try to grab his late Dreadnought with Threads, but alas, he countered.
I had to look up that list. In all honesty, I think you were unlucky if you lost to something other than an early Dreadnought. They need FoW to deal with Zur and Moat, either of which wins the game alone; though I guess they can Stifle your Transmute trigger, but that's one less Stifle for their combo, so...
Bouncing a Dreadnought with Clutch could also be fun.


Dragonstompy: Unsure yet. The build I was playing against didn't seem to be running Trini - which is a huge mistake IMO. Anyway, this deck has NO answer to red Akroma! :eek: I found that out the hard way. Ok, ok, I'll give you Story Circle, but it's only 1. Game 2 I Meddling Maged that bitch. Screw her for stealing a win. Anyway, if you can answer an early threat, you should be OK.At first I thought "Mageing a morph creature? WTF?" but then I remembered Counterbalance (and StP, if not Chaliced) can stop morph nicely.


Thresh: Smacked it a little bit. An early Story Circle on green proved problematic for the Thresh player.Quick note: if they play UG or UGW and no Needle, Story Circle is basically a hard lock by itself ;)


Affinity: I thought I was totally in control of this match - Moat had a nice lockdown. Unfortunately, Zur is a crappy clock and the Affinity player set up a Fling trap for me. With Cranial in play, I was forced to counter an Ornithopter (of all things) since I had spent my ORings on Disciples, my Desire on another Ornithopter, and my Declaration of NOT naming Ravager. God, searching up Energy Flux would have been EpicLulz.Hold on there. Was Threads of Disloyalty still in the deck? That would have handled Ornithopter nicely (also would have been insanely funny if he equipped it immediately and had no other creatures to move Ornithopter to).


Declaration of NOT! This card has been totally unneeded in my limited testing. Once Zur is going, I think there could be other more useful things to find. Simply a third ORing may work. Another Threads? Main Propaganda?Tell me something I don't know! It's indeed mediocre-to-useless in many games, but you haven't faced any of the decks against which Declaration covers your ass (mainly, anything with sweepers). I think I'd strongly consider taking it out if the 3cc slot can be pushed up to at least 7 cards, so that we can rely on Counterbalance to stop Deed.

Alternatively, it can be put in the SB if there isn't much control in the meta.


Brainstorming more Enchantments:
Mind Harness?Awesome against Aggro Loam (unless they run Chalice like me ;) ). Good, but unneeded against Threshold. So-so against Goblins.

Supression Field?Tried it. It hurts us A LOT (Top, fetches, Hoofprints, Dragon).

Solitary Confinement?Needs something to support it. Sleeper's Robe is the best I've seen so far (for Phyrexian Arena, see below)


Energy Field?I'm testing it right now. It's pretty damn good as a Fog on crack... I've adorably slapped Goyf Sligh with it! I'm seriously considering giving it a spot now.


Parallax Nexus (ohh! so janky!)?It doesn't let you pick the card. Ew. I'm not even testing it.


Phyrexian Arena (ok, now I'm just being silly)?Good for Hoofprints, and enables Solitary Confinement. But aside from the life loss, it's got the problem double black, and the deck already requires UU for Counterbalance and WW for Moat. When I ran it for a while (admittedly with a fairly earlier list) it got stuck in my hand pretty often.

I can't remember what exact manabase I used back then, though, so I could try giving it a second whirl.

Dystopia?Killing Zur, Moat, Hoofprints, Dragon, Circle? No thanks! (You still have to sacrifice one even if you only keep it for a turn)


I totally thought they were crap in my testing. Until I was in a losing postion and figured I'd Transmute for the hell of it... Oh wait... It gets Zur! (My actual thoughts in a game!) Yeah, I'm now a fan since it gets the UBW Survival for Enchantments.:D And this isn't really a deck that truly abuses that uncounterable tutor.


I'm really want to find an enchant that doubles as a quick win-con. Hoofprints may not be cutting it.I'll admit, this does not reflect my experience; Hoofprints has been nothing but fantastic. I had some Exalted Angel in the very first builds; I cut them very quickly because I was always winning with cheap 4/4 beats.

Maybe I just happen to draw more Tops than I should (they get you an extra draw for :1:). When I just want to close the game, I fetch both Hoofprints and start pumping out a 4/4 token every turn. Let's not get into what you can do with two Tops in play.


Hmmm, what if we put some sort of Aura in there to boost Zur? Maybe something like Sinister Strength? Strength of Lunacy (pro-white is cute)? Phyrexian Boon could provide flexibility.
If you want to speed up the finishing blow, you could use any combination of Pemmnin's Aura, Griffin Guide, Daybreak Cornet, or Battle Mastery.

Pemmin's Aura is the best of those, but spending :3: for 3 damage doesn't look much sexy when you could spend :2::w: for a 4/4 beater.

But really, if you're interested in running sheer pump (I'm not) nothing beats good old Empyrial Armor.

EDIT: Know what? I'm not putting it in my list, but the next few times I'm swinging with a Zur I'll note down if I'd want to grab an Empyrial Armor. Virtual testing, so to say.

(I just noticed a hilarious combo: if you run Leaden Fists and Second Wind, either card can work as a Pacifism on its own... but they can combine to give +3/+3 to your creature! Plus they're blue. I'm almost ashamed of such a janky idea.)

Nihil Credo
02-16-2008, 09:31 PM
Compared to the intense testing I did before posting this deck, I've been going pretty slow (university, apartment drama, and Neverwinter Nights 2 may also have played a part). Nevertheless, I have formed an opinion on the cards I'd been trying out.

- After a promising start, Energy Field ended up disappointing me. It did win me a few games against Red-based aggro decks, but every other time I played it my opponent got to destroy it for free, either by countering something (and - this is what I hadn't expected - I had to play something when my hand size reached eight) or by forcing me to counter something, like a StP on Zur. Also, when fetching with Zur, I went for Story Circle over it practically every time, with the two exceptions of an Ichorid game (where I also had Declaration set to Therapy) and a Faerie Stompy one where I was on the verge of death and fearful of Trinket Mage -> Needle.

The sad thing is that I can't even run Field as a SB option, because every non-terrible deck in the format will bring in some enchantment destruction, so the chance of it turning into a 1-for-2 is basically 100%; in fact, I kept siding it out for this very reason.

- Volrath's Stronghold: Turns out that when Zur dies, it's practically always Swords to Plowshares. I used it exactly once in about a dozen games, after Zur got FoWed.

Next up on the testing bench:

- Kor Haven, a pet card of mine which has the potential for complementing Moat nicely.
- Phyrexian Arena and Solitary Confinement (as a 61-card build, cutting Story Circle). I'm wary of the potential for fail if Confinement gets blown up at the wrong time, so I'll almost certainly side the combo out every time; but the opportunity to Just Win on turn five is also very attractive.
- Empyrial Armor: This time I'll try to remember to do the 'virtual testing' I mentioned in the post above.

GiantGrowth
02-18-2008, 11:02 PM
I'd like to say that I am very interested in this deck, and will probably try it out once an updated list is posted.

Edit- you know, before energy field is thrown out, what about using it with planar void? I know, ew two card combo, but planar void doesn't hurt anything in your deck. Plus, it randomly hoses GYbaed decks (somewhat). and its not dead against non GY-based due to the interaction with energy field. I don't see the harm in testing.

Waikiki
02-19-2008, 02:59 AM
Planar void and energy field don't work together:

10/4/2004 The card does go to the graveyard before it is removed from the game, so other triggered abilities will trigger on the card going to the graveyard.

largebrandon
02-19-2008, 09:37 AM
What about planar void and Web of Inertia? Kinda like a mini moat.

Nihil Credo
02-19-2008, 12:48 PM
What about planar void and Web of Inertia? Kinda like a mini moat.
Both cards do little (Void) or nothing (Web) on their own. Moreover, by the time you land a Web of Inertia, it's a safe bet they'll have enough cards in their GY to pay for enough attacks to finish you.

sauce
04-13-2009, 03:39 PM
would living wish have a place in this deck or would going 4 colors be too bad for the mana base?

a 1 of living wish in case of stp/oring on zur and just run 1 zur in the sb 3 main?
thoughts?

throw some shield of the godhead and oblivion rings in here?

bruno_tiete
04-16-2009, 01:00 PM
- After a promising start, Energy Field ended up disappointing me. It did win me a few games against Red-based aggro decks, but every other time I played it my opponent got to destroy it for free, either by countering something (and - this is what I hadn't expected - I had to play something when my hand size reached eight) or by forcing me to counter something, like a StP on Zur. Also, when fetching with Zur, I went for Story Circle over it practically every time, with the two exceptions of an Ichorid game (where I also had Declaration set to Therapy) and a Faerie Stompy one where I was on the verge of death and fearful of Trinket Mage -> Needle.

The sad thing is that I can't even run Field as a SB option, because every non-terrible deck in the format will bring in some enchantment destruction, so the chance of it turning into a 1-for-2 is basically 100%; in fact, I kept siding it out for this very reason.

How about Wheel of Sun and Moon? I am not sure it's been tried, but it would prevent Energy Field to ever go away and could maybe double as GY hate against funny decks.

Well, it's probably stretching it...

Mordel
04-16-2009, 05:23 PM
...and a year later...it rose from the grave!!!

bruno_tiete
04-17-2009, 10:50 AM
So it might be a good thing that both posts suggested card that had not been printed at the time...

But yeah, I havent seen that.

scarlet_moon
06-06-2009, 05:05 PM
I really like the idea of Energy Field and Wheel of Sun and Moon. Together with some Enlightened Tutors this is a good option against Burn/Aggro-Decks and both cards are ok on their own.
Wheel is really good against GY-Decks and recursion in general (only a bit slow), can protect against Mill-Combo and together with Field, its a good softlock. Counterbalance and hardcounter helps a lot to protect this.
Its better then Confinement-lock in this deck. Its better then Propaganda. Against some decks, its better then Moat. I really give it a try now :P

MTG-Fan
06-13-2009, 01:46 AM
I've been playing Zur the Enchanter decks in Standard and Extended as long as he's been legal.

I've been wanting to build a Legacy Zur deck for a while now, and I'm glad that other people have discovered how powerful he can be.

Quick note: there's a card in Shadowmoor called "Steel of the Godhead" that costs 3 mana, is blue/white so pitchable to Mox & Force, and makes Zur lifelinked, unblockable and +2/+2. It's pretty sweet if you want to speed up Zur's clock. I always run 1-2 fetchable MD.

Also, Threads of Disloyalty is the most ridiculous card ever if fetched by Zur in a format swarming with 1-2cc creatures. I'd run at least 2 MD and 2 more in the SB... you can board the 2 out in the few rare matchups where Threads isn't relevant.

fourleafedmonkey
06-17-2009, 06:42 PM
So I have been running a Zur deck for quite a while. It has turned into a landstill/faerie/fish hybrid sort of thing and it usually gets the upperhand in the end.

Creatures 12:

4 Zur, the Enchanter
4 Trinket Mage
4 Spellstutter Sprite

3 costing enchantments 12:

2 Oblivion Ring
1 Steel of the Godhead
2 Bitterblossom
3 Counterbalance
2 Standstill
2 Threads of Disloyalty

1 Costing Artifacts 3:

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Other Spells 12:

4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Lands 21:

1 Plains
2 Islands
2 Swamps
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Mutavault

The card advantage is insane in this deck
Bitterblossom is way faster than Hoofprints and lets you play spellstutter as a hard counter a lot of times.
Steel of the Godhead makes Zur actually able to do damage, and speeds up the clock when he finally hits.
The Threads is untested as of right now, I think it is a great idea though.

Moxen
06-27-2010, 02:45 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned underworld dreams. You could use it as a 1- of to fetch up with zur. I had an extended version of zur that used howling mines and underworld dreams + counter/top that worked fairly well. For the late games I had a forced fruition in there just for some extra laughs.

Benjammn
06-27-2010, 08:40 PM
http://www.thequietrevolution.ca/quiet/images/ThreadNecro.jpg
...nothing else to say.

(nameless one)
06-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Y'all should check this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12181-[Deck]-Zur

Moxen
06-27-2010, 10:15 PM
Y'all should check this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12181-[Deck]-Zur

I actually followed a link in that thread to this thread. Sorry, didn't realize it was so old.