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Phantom
02-11-2008, 12:41 AM
New List:

UWb
// Lands
4 [b] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [b] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [CHK] Plains (1)
2 [10E] Island (4)
1 [LRW] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Moat
3 [u] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FNM] Counterspell
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage


UW
// Lands
5 [RAV] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [b] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [LG] Moat
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [IA] Counterspell
2 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields


So, I guess I've sort of been on a mission to force every Legacy player to buy 4 Moats. I figure it's sort of my duty to punish people with actual tourneys in their area. Anyway, I stumbled onto an Aggro build for my CaND entry, but in my musings I tested Hoofprints of the Stag. The card did not work there, but it did get me thinking. Then I saw Bitterblossom and thought Hmmmmm. Here's what I came up with:


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [10E] Island (4)
1 [CHK] Swamp (4)
1 [CHK] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LG] Moat
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [SC] Stifle (for Deed and Waste)
1 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Win Cons
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


I'm not the worlds best control deck designer (or player really) but the deck has been nuts so far. Gargangel Stompy taught me that a lot of decks can't handle Moat, so pairing it with counter magic seems natural. The only slot I've been unhappy with is Spell Snare. I'm thinking about trying out Pulse of the Fields to help me stall for Moat and deal with Bitterblossom.

The board is untested, and I've only done a small amount of play testing, but it's shaping up pretty well. Check out these numbers (all preboard so far):

Moat Control vs Gobs
on the draw
1-0 Moat
2-0 Moat + deck
2-1 SGC
2-2 No Moat
2-3 No Moat

on the play
3-3 Moat
4-3 Bitterblossom + StPx4
4-4 No Moat
5-4 Moat + StP on SCG
6-4 Bitterblossom early + control


vs W Thresh w/ CB
on the draw
1-0 Moat + Hoof
2-0 Moat + Echoes
3-0 Moat + Blossom
4-0 Moat + Blossom
5-0 Moat + Hoof

on the play
6-0 did I mention that they can't seem to win


vs Landstill (Taco's 4c. These damn games take forever)
on the draw
1-0 Decked
2-0 Moat + Blossom
3-0 Decked


vs Survival (Di's build)
on the draw
0-1 Survival > Moat
1-1 Hoof x 2
1-2 Therapyx2
2-2 Moat sticks and Echoes SotF

on the play



I'll be back with more as the testing rolls in.


Oh, and Skybus is the greatest airline ever. Google that shit. 10 dollar flights out of Columbus to crappy cities with the following rules:

·No real in-flight entertainment--Skybus Suggests you bring a book.
·The first two bags are 5 bucks apiece. After that, it's $50 a bag.
·No phone number, just a website.

Clearly they deserve a kick ass deck.

Maveric78f
02-11-2008, 02:59 AM
it looks good really, except that I don't get the use of Wrath of God and Ponder in the deck. WoG should be replaced with smother/edict/shackles/oblivion ring/darkblast (in order to beat gobs). And ponder with impulse/stifle/spell snare. The fact that ponder draws and that drawing is good with hoofprint is not a good enough argument to play it to my opinion.

Nihil Credo
02-11-2008, 06:04 AM
It seems your aggro matchup basically revolves around Moat. Since you're UWB already, I think you should seriously try out one to three copies of Clutch of the Undercity for more consistent access to your bomb. They also fetch Wrath and allow you to get some silver bullets like Decree of Justice (although your deck may be a bit mana-short for that last one).

Thehunter820
02-11-2008, 12:32 PM
Hmm, I like the idea, could use some tweaking though, im at school now so ill build it and test it later, the main things I would work with are Spell Snare and Ponder would come out, and I would probably board Stifle, as its useful, but not a necessity in my meta, put in more control, and I'll mess with the manabase a bit, see if I can fit in a tarmagoyf

troopatroop
02-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Hmm, I like the idea, could use some tweaking though, im at school now so ill build it and test it later, the main things I would work with are Spell Snare and Ponder would come out, and I would probably board Stifle, as its useful, but not a necessity in my meta, put in more control, and I'll mess with the manabase a bit, see if I can fit in a tarmagoyf

Tarmogoyf in a Moat deck?

Thehunter820
02-11-2008, 01:05 PM
Yes Tarmagoyf isnt necessarily and optium chioce, but I think tarmagoyf works well in any deck if you can fit him in, I mean a turn 2 possible 5/6 isnt bad in my opinion, so if you can fit him in then he's a fairly decent choice, like i said ill work with it, not saying its a final choice.

Phantom
02-11-2008, 01:34 PM
Lol, I appreciate any help given, but I can tell you with a certainty that 'Goyf shouldn't be within 5 miles of this deck. It doesn't run green, it doesn't let ground creatures attack, and it sweeps the board of all creatures occasionally. Trust me.

This is also why I don't really run any creatures as win conditions for the simple fact that creatures are subject to creature removal (and my Wraths). I tooled around with Meloku and Angel (and even Decree) and others but decided to run enchantments that produce creature tokens so targeted AND mass removal would suck against me. This also makes playing enchantment removal against me an iffy proposal as there are a ton of targets.

Note that this is also why I run Stifle. Deed is one of the biggest threats this deck faces.


it looks good really, except that I don't get the use of Wrath of God and Ponder in the deck. WoG should be replaced with smother/edict/shackles/oblivion ring/darkblast (in order to beat gobs). And ponder with impulse/stifle/spell snare. The fact that ponder draws and that drawing is good with hoofprint is not a good enough argument to play it to my opinion.

I'm not sure why I would replace Wrath. it's one of the strongest control cards in the game, and has been since its printing. it's also a nice plan b to moat as it allows us to win games where we can't keep a Moat down. I'm certainly not replacing it with crappy, narrow targeted removal like Edict or Smother. I tried Shackles here and this is NOT the deck for it. it usually just stares at the opponents creatures and thinks "I wish one of them had flying...". I've kept Oblivion ring in mind since it's so strong in Gargangel Stompy, but the card is just worse than Vindicate and opens us up to more Deed hate. I'll always keep it in mind though. Darkblast is just a sub par sideboard card unless you are using the dredge to your favor (which i am not).

I can't believe so many people want to yank Ponder. This card is bananas. The deck really likes its filtering pieces and finding Moats quickly. It also only runs 20 land, which is lowish for a deck that wants to ramp up to 4+ (6 is nice for Moat + Counter mana). So basically if you're going to cut Ponder for a non cantrip, you would have to probably add two land which just about negates the purpose of cutting Ponder. And that's not even mentioning that it has solid synergy with Hoofprints.


Edit: I'm considering Cunning Wish but have never really used the card.

C.P.
02-11-2008, 02:02 PM
Enlightened tutor in the Snare Spot?

raharu
02-11-2008, 03:43 PM
I personally would run Sensei's Divining Top over Ponder. It has more synergy with Hoofprints of the Stag and is recuring filtration. Just a thought.

Maveric78f
02-11-2008, 05:56 PM
I personally would run Sensei's Divining Top over Ponder. It has more synergy with Hoofprints of the Stag and is recuring filtration. Just a thought.

I did not propose top because the deck wanted a blue card in that slot.

Phantom
02-11-2008, 07:52 PM
Enlightened tutor in the Snare Spot?

Nah. E tutor as a one of kinda sucks. In fact, I pretty much subscribe to the theory that cantrips > tutors in non combo Legacy decks. Tutors often force you to run inconsistent decks and are often card disadvantage. I'm not really looking for either. I'd rather dig for four ofs with Ponder and BS since they can dig for land, sorceries, etc.

If I'm going to run silver bullets, it will be in the sideboard.

@ SDT: I think it's a tad overrated (in blue decks st least) without CB. It doesn't pitch to force. It makes one land starting hands crap. It is dead in multiples, etc. I think there was a reason no one ran it in blue decks until CB hit. I need to keep my blue count up.

I'm about to go get some testing done with:
-1 Echoes
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Hoofprints

+3 Cunning Wish

I need help with the Wishboard though. I know this much:

2 Extirpate
Slaughter Pact
Return to dust
Hydroblast
Fact or Fiction
Pulse of the Fields
Trickbind (might make Stifle unnecessary)


I like to test Wish boards as big as possible and pair them down as I keep track of what I wish for. I would like a win con in there like Echoes. Feel free to throw out suggestions.

Thehunter820
02-11-2008, 10:16 PM
About my earlier postings, and I tested out the deck against a few different things witha few different variations, Tarmagoyf is a good choice, like I said not the best but, it offers a good early game threat, and a viable win-con if moat is destroyed.

Poron
02-11-2008, 10:36 PM
Hoofsprint of the stag + Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder/Sensei's etc.

Phantom
02-11-2008, 11:51 PM
Hoofsprint of the stag + Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder/Sensei's etc.

Ummm, what? I already run 4 Brainstorm...

conboy31
02-12-2008, 12:09 AM
For one of the spots up for grabs, you could throw in a single Replenish. It would be a topdeck win vs discard, and if facing heavy countermagic the gy will have what you need to win.

Maveric78f
02-12-2008, 02:00 AM
With Hoofprint, it's good to be flooded with mana which your deck try to avoid by playing 8 cantrips. And top+top+hoofprint = 1 elemental for 6W. It's expensive but it warrants a great long term game plan.

Thehunter820
02-12-2008, 12:28 PM
I did not propose top because the deck wanted a blue card in that slot.

A blue card is a way to go, although the top may be of more use than the blue card, so i'd personally test it both ways.

Dark_Cynic87
02-12-2008, 03:46 PM
What about impulse? Seems to be a better digger.

Is Hoofprints of the Stag actually working for you? I'd at least test DoJ, maybe exalted angel...

Afro
02-12-2008, 04:51 PM
While I LOVE Moat in the meta right now, I feel that it lost a lot when Krosan Grip saw print. Game one its cool but after boarding you can't just let any non flier resolve and hold back counters for a disenchant effect. That was my favorite part about Moat and no longer can I sit back and not give a shit what my opponent is doing creature wise. I understand you run Wrath, but still back before Grip those spots could have been better used as spot removal.

Phantom
02-12-2008, 05:11 PM
Why would anyone run Impulse over Ponder??? They dig about as deep (I count Ponder as digging 3.5 cards deep since the 4th is blind) and while they both let you bury useless cards, Impulse forces you to bury the second best card. Oh, and it costs 2 mana! 2 mana cantrips suck. I can now never keep a one mana hand and have to worry more about daze and Spell Snare. Great. I'm not even a fan of Predict, but at least it is card advantage. Oh, and last but not least in the crappiness parade, Impulse isn't a "draw" card, so it doesn't even speed up my Hoofprints.


With Hoofprint, it's good to be flooded with mana which your deck try to avoid by playing 8 cantrips. And top+top+hoofprint = 1 elemental for 6W. It's expensive but it warrants a great long term game plan.

I agree that the deck likes to have about 6 mana in play, but I disagree that running 8 cantrips prevents me from hitting my land. Cantrips simply allow you to filter out what you do need for what you don't. I mean, if you had a deck that ran 60 land and , and a deck that ran 30 landand 30 cantrips, which one would get 10 lands down quicker? It would be the same. The beauty of 20 lands and 8 cantrips as opposed to 24 and 4 or 26 and 6 is that I get to hit the exact amount of mana I want, exactly when I want it. There's a reason thresh is considered the most consistent deck in legacy. It runs 17 lands on a curve that goes up to 4, and can STILL fight through ports and wastes and all the other crap thanks to its filtering.

I like SDT, and can see the synergy with Hoofprints, I just don't think it's right here. I mean, if i cut 4 Ponder, I'd have to add two land to make sure I had fewer one land hands (as they are near auto mulligans now) so that leaves room for only two tops. Also, that cuts me down to a dangerously low blue count for force of Will. I'm not loving any of that.



For one of the spots up for grabs, you could throw in a single Replenish. It would be a topdeck win vs discard, and if facing heavy countermagic the gy will have what you need to win.

I've considered it, but i think that is a slightly different deck. it would run O-Ring for one. If only it were an instant i would put it in the board in a heartbeat.


Is Hoofprints of the Stag actually working for you? I'd at least test DoJ, maybe exalted angel...

Why would I want to make their creature removal relevant? Why would I want to run win conditions that die to my own Wraths? Why would I pay seven mana for something that bites it to a one casting cost instant that is run everywhere?


While I LOVE Moat in the meta right now, I feel that it lost a lot when Krosan Grip saw print. Game one its cool but after boarding you can't just let any non flier resolve and hold back counters for a disenchant effect. That was my favorite part about Moat and no longer can I sit back and not give a shit what my opponent is doing creature wise. I understand you run Wrath, but still back before Grip those spots could have been better used as spot removal.

I was worried about this too. Now I'm not as worried. The deck wins just fine without Moat (especially as they wait for Grip you can drop all your win cons) and we have a bunch of ways to deal with Grip. Board in meddling mage (I'm also considering that new blue enchantment that is sort of a MMage) and protect him, or let one resolve and Wish -> extirpate that sucker.

I've already done some testing against Thresh post side and it hasn't effected the matchup in a significant way.

And yes, hoofprints is working for me. It is slow though. I actually sort of prefer Bitterblossom now that Wish -> Pulse is online. it is much more risky though.

Cunning Wish has been working pretty damn well. I'm still looking for a win con to put in the board as I have managed to deck myself a few times. Does anyone have ANY ideas???

Maveric78f
02-13-2008, 02:12 AM
Cunning Wish has been working pretty damn well. I'm still looking for a win con to put in the board as I have managed to deck myself a few times. Does anyone have ANY ideas???
The best instant win con is probably enlightened tutor.

PhanTom_lt
02-13-2008, 06:34 AM
Interesting deck. However, it looks a lot like the Epic Control. Have you tried Jace?

Phantom
02-13-2008, 09:40 AM
The best instant win con is probably enlightened tutor.

Good point.


Interesting deck. However, it looks a lot like the Epic Control. Have you tried Jace?

It's a tad different since I can't protect Jace at all without Moat out. I don't run Goyf or Shackles or Ruins/Explosives. If it were a Wish target, I'd run it in a heartbeat.

Media314r8
02-13-2008, 10:30 AM
I understand the whole 'you don't want to make their removal relevant', but would a pair of Nullstone gargoyles work well in here? (chanting grips most often) You could actualy let all their dudes resolve provided you had this guy and a moat in hand. (assuming your opponent didn't sack one of their three grips into hand in the first five turns, not to mention already burn it on a hoofprints) The guy looks terrible on paper, but he is cheaper than an morphed exalted, and protects all of your wincons.

Phantom
02-13-2008, 11:51 AM
I understand the whole 'you don't want to make their removal relevant', but would a pair of Nullstone gargoyles work well in here? (chanting grips most often) You could actualy let all their dudes resolve provided you had this guy and a moat in hand. (assuming your opponent didn't sack one of their three grips into hand in the first five turns, not to mention already burn it on a hoofprints) The guy looks terrible on paper, but he is cheaper than an morphed exalted, and protects all of your wincons.

That's not a terrible idea actually. I have to figure out if they should go mainboard or side. I just wish the guy was a 3/4. I also will probably squeeze in a Declaration of Naught that I can tutor up with E Tutor out of the board. Thanks for the tip, and I'll let you know how it works out.

raharu
02-13-2008, 04:11 PM
Voidstone Gargoyle? I would run a split between it and Meddling Mage simply because Mage is faster but Gargoyle is a win-con that protects your other win-cons. Possible a 3/2 mage/ gargoyle split? It seems heavy, but the Mages or the Gargoyles would probable be in the board.

Phantom
02-13-2008, 04:28 PM
Voidstone Gargoyle? I would run a split between it and Meddling Mage simply because Mage is faster but Gargoyle is a win-con that protects your other win-cons. Possible a 3/2 mage/ gargoyle split? It seems heavy, but the Mages or the Gargoyles would probable be in the board.

Yeah, that's what worries me. They both do a specific job and are kinda crappy at the other one. Mage helps fight combo, but is terrible at beatdown or stopping something that's already down. Gargoyle is the exact opposite where he is bad against combo (too slow) but solid in those other areas. I'm hoping that a tutorable Declaration of Naught will help me cut down on these slots a bit.

Illissius
02-14-2008, 05:08 AM
Declaration of Nought isn't going to help you against Krosan Grip.

Phantom
02-14-2008, 08:41 AM
Declaration of Nought isn't going to help you against Krosan Grip.

You're right of course. Thanks for the heads up. I think I'll still run it though as Deed and Survival prevention or maybe to keep flyers off the board.

raharu
02-14-2008, 04:20 PM
Would a wish-able sweeper for flying creatures be feaseable?

LandDestroyer
02-15-2008, 11:29 AM
So, basically you're trying to recreate the deck I created, Roman Candle. I never posted it, but I originally played it to an 8-2 finish at 2006 Gencon (round 8 was against roland chang, if he had taken an ID i would have top 8'd but his tiebreakers were bad so we played and i lost 2-1). It was black/white/green/red at the time with moat and bridge, but when they created tin-street, I changed it to blue/white/red with moat, etc. Last time I played it was before they errated flash. I top 8'd a gpt, but lost to jason mays playing threshold of course (in chicago). I stopped playing it b/c of flash, and won a grinder before gp columbus playing fish. I have since quit playing b/c of feeling like the dci said screw legacy when they did that, but a friend asked me if I still had a copy of my deck list since somebody appeared to be trying to recreate it. I am at work however. emidln. seraphim3577, maybe tash and some others would remember it...plus my opponents at gencon and random GPTs. It was very good. At gencon 2006 it was 80/20 vs the top 3 decks, goblins, threshold, and solidarity.

Media314r8
02-15-2008, 11:45 AM
So, basically you're trying to recreate the deck I created, Roman Candle. I never posted it, but I originally played it to an 8-2 finish at 2006 Gencon (round 8 was against roland chang, if he had taken an ID i would have top 8'd but his tiebreakers were bad so we played and i lost 2-1). It was black/white/green/red at the time with moat and bridge, but when they created tin-street, I changed it to blue/white/red with moat, etc. Last time I played it was before they errated flash. I top 8'd a gpt, but lost to jason mays playing threshold of course (in chicago). I stopped playing it b/c of flash, and won a grinder before gp columbus playing fish. I have since quit playing b/c of feeling like the dci said screw legacy when they did that, but a friend asked me if I still had a copy of my deck list since somebody appeared to be trying to recreate it. I am at work however. emidln. seraphim3577, maybe tash and some others would remember it...plus my opponents at gencon and random GPTs. It was very good. At gencon 2006 it was 80/20 vs the top 3 decks, goblins, threshold, and solidarity.

tldr; everyone has thought of every legacy deck at some point, killjoy, ect ect

Phantom
02-15-2008, 12:15 PM
Would a wish-able sweeper for flying creatures be feaseable?

Did you have one in mind? I'm not really sure I would ever need one. Wrath serves the same purpose, except it's still good when I don't have Moat down.

Mental
02-18-2008, 01:51 PM
This deck is format eating. Anyways, why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom? I've been running:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Strand
4 Flooded Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains

2 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Moat
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

3 Cunning Wish
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

2 Bitterblossom
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Trickbind
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust

If only I had 4 moats...Anyways. Enlightened Tutor + Counterbalance seems strong. This deck can counter anything from CC 0-4 with Balance and Tutor, or Balance and Cunning Wish. I'm not sure about Eternal Dragon over Hoofprints #2, but it does seem to be a good early game mana fixer. Meddling Mage on Krosan Grip is strong.

Cunning Wish is retarded.

Phantom
02-18-2008, 02:44 PM
This deck is format eating. Anyways, why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom?


Thanks for the list. The deck is indeed, pretty nuts. I guess my thought process on CounterTop went as follows:

"All of their ground creatures are useless. All of their creature removal is almost useless. How many spells am I going to need to counter a game? Not that many. So I'd rather have a solid counter in that spot than an iffy but more powerful counter engine."

Now whether or not that is true remains to be seen. it would give me another way to shut down Grip, and seeing as that is often a decks only out against us, that's nothing to sneeze at. I am worried about dropping Wrath all together, as it's such a nice safety valve.

If you're going to run E tutor, might I suggest Oblivion ring as a one of.

diffy
02-18-2008, 04:30 PM
Why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom?


I don't feel comfortable running CBalance+Top in any non-aggro-control shell as your chances of it being a dead card are pretty high due to you not ever hitting blindly and due to you having a moderate chance of not finding something suitable even with SDT due to your manabase being all over the place and due to you running quite a high amount of lands.



4 Polluted Strand
4 Flooded Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Dragon


2 basic Swamps seems really excessive here. Also with Eternal Dragon in the deck, a 1off Scrubland has proven to be really worth it.
Also I don't see the point in playing Chrome Mox. The speed boost it provides doesn't compensate the CDA (you have way to little CA for a control deck anyways) it creates.



4 Moat


As multiple Moats are dead weight, I would like to suggest a split between Moat and Humility here. Humility is just too strong a card in any control shell and is a hard lock with Moat. (also note the incredible synergy with Bitterblossom and Pulse of the Fields)



4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
3 Cunning Wish
2 Enlightened Tutor


Even with Counterbalance being out of the deck, a couple of Sensei's Divining Tops could still be worth it as they provide some excellent card quality combined with your 8 fetchies and are pretty synergetic with Hoofprints of the Stag.
I'm not sure about Ponder.



4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Bitterblossom
1 Hoofprints of the Stag


This looks about fine but I do support those who say that WoG is probably unnecessary due to you having Moat (and to a lesser extent Humility). You could probably cut them for some more versatile early game plays like Engineered Explosive.
With Engineered Explosives in the deck, you could then add a singleton Academy Ruins (prevents decking!).



Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Trickbind
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust


This looks a little unfocused. You really don't need Trickbind (Wish-> Trickbind comes online at the earliest t4 by which combo should long since have won or is in a pretty bad position anyways.
Also, I don't think that you need a draw spell in the wishboard as getting a solution to an imeadiate problem or a preventive measure (Enlightened Tutor) is probably always superior to a blind draw4.

Suggested Changes:

Sideboard:
-1 Trickbind
-1 Meditate
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Extirpate

Mainboard:
-2 Swamp
-2 Chrome Mox
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Scrubland

-1 Moat
+1 Humility

-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-3 Counterbalance
+4 Counterspell

-1 Wrath of God
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Oblivion Ring

Now what disturbs me most with this version is that it runs absolutely no means to create card advantage (other than the virtual CA provided by Moat&Humility).

That list on the first page looks nice though except for that I'd change some cards to more lands (20 is just way to little for a control deck) and the Stifle/Spell Snare slots to Cunning Wish.
You could then also switch some WoGs to Enlightened Tutors (very flexible here and fullfill a similar job to WoG stopping creatures by fetching Moat).

This is what I'm going to give a run in the next cupple of days:



/// Maindeck (60 cards):
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
3 Island

// Winconditions
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Bitterblossom

// Permission
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Card Advantage & Tutoring
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

// Removal
3 Moat
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring

///Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor


I think that Bitterblossoms is going to be totally underpowered just providing a chump blocker a turn for a life and I am already contemplating replacing them with a Haunting Echoes and the third Hoofprints.

Again no card draw seems a little shaky for a control deck but I don't know... maybe I am surprised positively.

Mister Agent
02-18-2008, 05:31 PM
Actually Clemens is right this deck does need more card draw. Having utility cantrips won't always get it done for a control deck you need good hard draw like fact or fictions. Other then that phantom I really like the list.

Phantom
02-18-2008, 06:49 PM
Thanks for all the good feedback. A quick word about win cons: Hoofprints and Bitterblossom have both been solid. Neither has really outshined the other, as both have flourished in seperate situations. I still have to run a single Echoes, which I hate. I wish I could put this damn thing in the wish board. it is just a necessary evil against decks that run enough removal to stop our flyers.



I don't feel comfortable running CBalance+Top in any non-aggro-control shell as your chances of it being a dead card are pretty high due to you not ever hitting blindly and due to you having a moderate chance of not finding something suitable even with SDT due to your manabase being all over the place and due to you running quite a high amount of lands.


Agreed, but some control decks have dabbled with some success (TEC and some still builds) so i'll keep my mind open.



As multiple Moats are dead weight, I would like to suggest a split between Moat and Humility here. Humility is just too strong a card in any control shell and is a hard lock with Moat. (also note the incredible synergy with Bitterblossom and Pulse of the Fields)

One, I couldn't disagree more that multiple Moats are dead. I would much rather see three than 0 as they are so often game over, and EVERY deck is packing removal for them somewhere. laying a second moat is one of the great ways to prevent Grip from screwing you over. And if you don't want more than one, use the eight cantrips to bury the extras. Run 4 Moat. Trust me.

Second, I really don't like the idea of Humility. It cuts us off from our own win cons (as we run no Conclaves) and basically just lets us win through decking them one card at a time. this is a terrible idea in tournament play as it allows the opponent to stall out a draw. I don't mind winning by decking (usually through Echoes) but I'm not about to make it a strategy. The only deck I can think of off the top of my head where I'd rather play Humility and a Moat over two Moats is Faerie Stompy. Other decks just don't run enough flyers to scare me with a moat down. Even decks running Hoofprints haven't been a problem between Vindicate, counters, and Wish -> answer.



This looks a little unfocused. You really don't need Trickbind (Wish-> Trickbind comes online at the earliest t4 by which combo should long since have won or is in a pretty bad position anyways.
Also, I don't think that you need a draw spell in the wishboard as getting a solution to an imeadiate problem or a preventive measure (Enlightened Tutor) is probably always superior to a blind draw4.

I run Trickbind not to stop combo (although you can slow combo to the point where this is key, ESPECIALLY post board) but to stop Deed, which is huge and everywhere. All the other uses for it are just butter.

The draw spot is a tough call and one I'm still debating about. I haven't tested the board yet with an E tutor so I'll leave Meditate in and see if I ever go get it.


@ Wrath: It's possible that I'm wrong in running this, but here's my reasoning so far. It stalls for Moat, let's us win if they counter, discard, or otherwise don't let our Moat stay down, and acts as backup removal for troublesome flyers should the need arise. What i really like is that decks get desperate to win early against us since they know Moat is such a bitch to win through so they will drop multiple beaters and walk into a devestating Wrath.


@ Vindicate: I can't believe not everyone is running this. It has been SO key. There are a few cards that are troublesome to us and this answers almost all of them. Also, its so, so great with a wishable extirpate in the board. This is an underrated way to deal with grip. Vindicate Tropical island -> Extirpate Tropical Island. Good times. I think a 3/1 split between Vindicate and oRing sounds good.

@ Academy Ruins: I like this card, but as an untutorable one-of with only 2 explosives it might not be worth it. I might be wrong though, so let me know.

@ Card Draw: I'm not sure the deck needs it mainboard since Moat and our Win cons make so much of the opposing deck useless, but if you want to try Compulsive Research or the artifact instant one (brainfart) with a tweaked base feel free. You would have to up the land count though. Good synergy with Hoofprints.

Illissius
02-19-2008, 06:16 AM
If the goal is stopping Grips, you can also use something like Cranial Extraction or Lobotomy, not just Mage and friends.

diffy
02-19-2008, 09:38 AM
One, I couldn't disagree more that multiple Moats are dead. I would much rather see three than 0 as they are so often game over, and EVERY deck is packing removal for them somewhere. laying a second moat is one of the great ways to prevent Grip from screwing you over. And if you don't want more than one, use the eight cantrips to bury the extras. Run 4 Moat. Trust me.


Yeah, I was probably wrong on that one. Note to myself: this is not Landstill!



I run Trickbind not to stop combo (although you can slow combo to the point where this is key, ESPECIALLY post board) but to stop Deed, which is huge and everywhere. All the other uses for it are just butter.


I'm afraid of this move also being too slow (or somewhat redundant because you can Return to Dust a Deed too if need arises) but I'll give it a shot.



@ Academy Ruins: I like this card, but as an untutorable one-of with only 2 explosives it might not be worth it. I might be wrong though, so let me know.


It really is worth it, especially since your manabase is stable enough to support the one colorless land easily: the occasions in which you have both parts of the 'combo', you just win. Also it helps you to maintain an edge in the lategame should you ever run out of normal removal.

Changes:

-1 Island
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Ponder

+1 Haunting Echoes
+1 Jace Belaren (test slot)

-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Oblivion Ring
+3 Vindicate

-1 Humility
+1 Moat

The reasoning behind Jace is that he too is a way to stall for Moat (cantrip + fog) and a strong card advantage engine if your opponent choses to ignore it. You also do have some sorts of removal (your own dudes [Bitterblossom, Hoofprints of the Stag], Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives, Vindicate) to protect it sans Moat if need arises. I like how he acts as a wincondition and card draw engine on paper, maybe I'll be wrong on this one though.

Phantom
02-19-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm afraid of this move also being too slow (or somewhat redundant because you can Return to Dust a Deed too if need arises) but I'll give it a shot.


Keep in mind their goal (especially Landstill) is going to be to drop Deed AND blow it for 4 before passing priority since we run Vindicate. Even instants like Return to Dust are useless to us there. Our only answers are to win the counter war (not always possible against control) our to Stifle/Trickbind.

I really hope Jace works out for you, as he would be so powerful here and could replace Haunting Echoes slot. I'm just really worried that he dies to a single Goyf swing.


Edit-
@Cranial Extraction or Lobotomy: I'm not that desperate to stop Grips I think. Mages are good because they are solid against so many decks, and I'll just use Extirpate on their Grips after they use one (another reason I like seeing multiple Moats).

Phantom
03-10-2008, 01:17 AM
So, this deck is simply fantastic. Been raping with it on MWS (which I know isn't the most amazing thing ever, but it's all I got). Here's the list I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [10E] Island (4)
2 [CHK] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LG] Moat
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [MR] Second Sunrise
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find


The maindeck is running tight right now. Everything is coming up when I want. The only thing I might try is a Jace in a Serum Visions spot, but I'm really not crazy about letting them draw into their outs. I also think I'd like 2.5 Wraths, and can't decide if it should be 2 or 3. Cunning Wish has also been SO great (Pulse especially) so I'm thinking about upping them to a 4-of. Tough call though.

The board has been messed with a lot. Meddling Mage is out. I never liked it at all as it goes against so much of my deck (making creature removal relevant for them, making Wrath a bitch for me). My basic strategy of "draw more Moats than they draw Grips is working out fine (note the high ass cantrip number), and I'm testing Second Sunrise and Argivian Find to supplement that as wish targets (I'd clearly like to keep Sunrise in there as it lets Moat to come back before they can attack).

I think I'd like to squeeze in some more yard hate, but they might come around the smaller I can make the board.

One last thing, is there a wish target that will keep you me from decking myself? Or losing when I do? It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will. (The only one I can find is Beacon of Immortality)

Illissius
03-10-2008, 02:39 AM
I'd just point out that Second Sunrise is symmetric. It'll save you for a turn if they don't have another four mana to Deed again, but I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for.

As for not decking yourself, there's Mnemonic Nexus. And hopefully something better.

Phantom
03-10-2008, 09:45 AM
I'd just point out that Second Sunrise is symmetric. It'll save you for a turn if they don't have another four mana to Deed again, but I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for.

As for not decking yourself, there's Mnemonic Nexus. And hopefully something better.

Fixed the Second Sunrise stupidity. And yeah, Beacon and Nexus aren't exactly blowing me away.

Nihil Credo
03-10-2008, 06:13 PM
One last thing, is there a wish target that will keep you me from decking myself? Or losing when I do?

Why not instead Wish for Brain Freeze, save up a few instants (or chain Wishes), and cast it for, say, ~12 cards thus decking the opponent?

raharu
03-10-2008, 09:07 PM
Reminisce. I like the Onslaught Foil ones, tres sexy, and only $0.50!

Phantom
03-11-2008, 09:18 AM
Reminisce. I like the Onslaught Foil ones, tres sexy, and only $0.50!

It's a sorcery...

Dilettante
03-11-2008, 09:49 AM
Here are your wishboard options...
Bone Harvest (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=27245)
Mnemonic Nexus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=88963)
Reinforcements (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3207)
Stream of Consciousness (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=73997)

raharu
03-11-2008, 11:56 AM
]: Oops!

Phantom
03-11-2008, 01:08 PM
Here are your wishboard options...
Bone Harvest (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=27245)
Mnemonic Nexus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=88963)
Reinforcements (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3207)
Stream of Consciousness (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=73997)

Sadly, none of those work for me. I run no creatures, so Reinforcements and Bone Harvest don't work. Nexus is symmetrical, will make the game last for freaking ever, and I 'll probably still deck myself first, and Stream of Consciousness only puts 4 cards on top of my library, which doesn't prevent a deck running 10+ cantrips from decking itself.

So basically it's Brain Freeze, or find a spot mainboard for a Haunting Echoes. I'll have to test some more and see.

Cavius The Great
03-28-2008, 12:59 PM
Phantom, I just checked SCG.com and all of the Moats are sold out. Are these your doings? :wink:

Phantom
04-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Phantom, I just checked SCG.com and all of the Moats are sold out. Are these your doings? :wink:

I couldn't really say, but here's the newest list I've been testing:

// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [CHK] Plains (1)
2 [10E] Island (4)
1 [LRW] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Moat
3 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FNM] Counterspell
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage


I'm still playing with the board and all the numbers, but I do think CB/Top might have a place here. The decks curve is amazingly varied, and can target whatever CC hurts it most from the opposing deck.

Phantom
04-07-2008, 01:16 AM
Ok, so CB/Top is definitely the way to go. I love having access to a wide variety of casting costs. I just won a fetchlands tendril matchup thanks to having access to 3cc to stop Wipe Away.

Anyway, the big question for me now is colors. I've always run UWb to have access to Vindicate, Bitterblossom, and Extirpate out of the board. Well, I've been trying straight UW and liking it a lot. Here's the list:

// Lands
5 [RAV] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [LG] Moat
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [IA] Counterspell
2 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields


Shackles will probably come out of the board. They are nice, but I need Mages more I think. Quash is interesting anti-Loam tech, but is no where near Extirpate. The two Dragons have been pretty nice, but I might need to drop a land for something. The deck doesn't have quite the power level as UWb, but it is much more consistent in the face of discard and LD, which had been great.

Illissius
04-07-2008, 09:11 AM
Quash. That's awesome tech. Word is that Shadowmoor will have a Quash for :3::u::u: which works on every card type. There's also Honor the Fallen if you think that'll help shore up the lack of Extirpate at all.

Why did you go down to three Moats maindeck? I thought "Moat early, Moat often" was sort of the motto of this deck.

This might seem a bit out of left field, but have you considered Ancient Tomb at all? (Perhaps while replacing some Hoofprints with Exalted Angels). I keep wanting to put Ancient Tomb into decks which don't also have City of Traitors and Chrome Mox in them. It's both acceleration and card advantage (two lands in one), and is something like the least work required ever to accelerate you by a turn -- just slots into the manabase. Here, the main attraction is it'll let you Moat a turn faster, among other things (like Angels); (though it'd work even better in a deck with actual draw spells instead of Ponders). This deck is pretty ideally suited to keeping the extra damage you've taken from becoming dangerous in the later game (while playing stuff a turn earlier can save you a bunch in the early game), with Moat, Counterbalance-Top, Wish->Pulse, and Angels if you decide to play them.

Is Argivian Find a better Wish target than Enlightened Tutor? Both will get you a Moat after one has been destroyed, while Tutor will also get you a Moat if you haven't drawn one (or just want a second, whatever). It'll complete Counterbalance-Top, too, now that you use it. On the other hand, Tutor is obviously card disadvantage, while Find isn't.

Also, what do you think about these cards as Wish targets? Submerge, Wing Shards, Dominate.

Phantom
04-07-2008, 03:15 PM
Quash. That's awesome tech. Word is that Shadowmoor will have a Quash for :3::u::u: which works on every card type. There's also Honor the Fallen if you think that'll help shore up the lack of Extirpate at all.

Interesting. I'm not sure if I'll switch over for the extra mana since I've never needed to Quash anything that's not an instant or sorcery, but it's something to think about. The lack of extirpate is annoying, but not terrible, and probably not worth another board slot. I have Quash for game 1, and 3 crypts to board in for game 2. Not sure what that does to the dredge matchup.



Why did you go down to three Moats maindeck? I thought "Moat early, Moat often" was sort of the motto of this deck.

It is, and if you notice, I still have all four between the 75, I'm just playing around with the numbers. There are a few reasons I'm trying it as a mainboard three of:

1) The reason I want multiple Moats usually is so if one gets destroyed, I have backup. Many decks don't have any way to deal with it game 1 anyway, so 1 is as good as 2.
2) I run CB now so I can stop their removal (including Grip) more often.
3) I'm trying to win games quicker to make the deck more tourney viable and multiple Moats don't help that.
4) With 4 BS, Ponder, 3 top, and 12 shuffle effects I can usually find them when I need them.

Still, I'm not sure if this is the right call. I'm sticking with three till I start losing due to lack of them.



This might seem a bit out of left field, but have you considered Ancient Tomb at all? (Perhaps while replacing some Hoofprints with Exalted Angels). I keep wanting to put Ancient Tomb into decks which don't also have City of Traitors and Chrome Mox in them. It's both acceleration and card advantage (two lands in one), and is something like the least work required ever to accelerate you by a turn -- just slots into the manabase. Here, the main attraction is it'll let you Moat a turn faster, among other things (like Angels); (though it'd work even better in a deck with actual draw spells instead of Ponders). This deck is pretty ideally suited to keeping the extra damage you've taken from becoming dangerous in the later game (while playing stuff a turn earlier can save you a bunch in the early game), with Moat, Counterbalance-Top, Wish->Pulse, and Angels if you decide to play them.


I have considered it. I'm not sure that deck could support :u::u: and :w::w: though. The counter sweet might have to just be Force and some amount of Dazes, and I think Hoof would be dropped all together for wincons of Sea Drakes, Angels, Serendibs and things like that.

I really haven't had enough time to try all the Moat iterations yet, so it's possible that deck is stronger though losing the CB engine would be tough. If you find a build that can support CB, Tomb, Moat, and a good amount of wincons, let me know.


Is Argivian Find a better Wish target than Enlightened Tutor? Both will get you a Moat after one has been destroyed, while Tutor will also get you a Moat if you haven't drawn one (or just want a second, whatever). It'll complete Counterbalance-Top, too, now that you use it. On the other hand, Tutor is obviously card disadvantage, while Find isn't.

Honestly I don't know. I put Argivian Find and Second Sunrise in the board to help fight Grip, and I put E Tutor in there to find win cons. I haven't wished for any of them yet. I might put Tutor back in the Argivian Find slot not that I run the CB engine as setting that up can be worth all the tempo and card disadvantage.



Also, what do you think about these cards as Wish targets? Submerge, Wing Shards, Dominate.

I really don't know. I rarely wish for creature answers. Submerge seems cheap but rarely useful, Wing Shards seems nice but expensive, and Dominate seems incredible but narrow and really expensive. I might go on MWS one day with a 15 card wishboard and just record how often I grab each target. Dismantling Blow is def the most wished for, with Condemn and Trickbind being very solid. Quash was just recently tried but has been used a lot. I'm not sure if I should try putting a draw spell back in, and if I do should it be fact or Meditate.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I'll keep the updates coming.

Phantom
04-21-2008, 12:21 PM
I've become convinced that UW is the way to play this deck by utterly destroying decks I've faced on MWS and in real life (it's not perfect, but it's what i got). Black offered some great, but in the end unessential, tools, but one of the best ways to attack this deck is to attack the mana base, and a third color just makes that all the easier. Now the deck can run a ton of basics and still hit :u::u: and :w::w:.

Also, I really like the Shackles out of the board. At first I put them in to fight against anything running flyers, but now I've realized they are great against decks running Grip for your Moats. I've honestly found the best way to beat artifact and enchanment hate is to simply give them way too many targets (CB, Top, Hoof, Moat, Shackles).

I'll probably work on a post for the established forum at some point. Thanks for all the help here.

YuanTi
04-26-2008, 03:03 PM
Has removing Black really helped overall?

Bitterblossom chump blocks Goyf all day, and wins you the game the second you have a moat.

Extirpate is also an amazing wish target, without it you need to drop a moat before Ichorid go off, which could be very difficult, and it hits Loam Decks hard, and can even be used to capitalise on anything thats made its way into their yard.

I definitely support running Tutor in the Argivian Find slot. It guarantees what you need for that matchup.

Phantom
04-26-2008, 10:59 PM
Has removing Black really helped overall?

Bitterblossom chump blocks Goyf all day, and wins you the game the second you have a moat.

Extirpate is also an amazing wish target, without it you need to drop a moat before Ichorid go off, which could be very difficult, and it hits Loam Decks hard, and can even be used to capitalise on anything thats made its way into their yard.



I was actually surprised by the quality of the UW build myself. The entire meta it seems is keying on non basics and land hate through Blood Moon, B2B, Wasteland, Port, Sinkhole, Stifle, and many others. Black offers a quality win condition, a versatile piece of removal, and some great sideboard options. This is all true. This is not, however, what the deck needs. The deck needs stability and mana. UW offers that in spades through allied colors that can run a lot of fetches, a lot of basics, quality plains-cyclers, while easily achieving double white and blue.

I can't speak to the impact on the Ichoroid matchup as I've never played against it, but Loam is still a good matchup. Pre board they can't deal with Moat or Counterbalance (and there is always Wish -> Quash to shut down their draw engine) and postboard we get more graveyard hate and too many Krosan Grip targets to handle (bring in the Shackles).

This is actually something I've been meaning to point out as a strength of this deck. Being able to flood opponents who board in 3-4 answers to artifacts/enchantments is amazingly good.

As to the board, here's what I'm testing now:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust

I upped the Stifle count to help against Goblins (though it clearly is useful against Combo and Deed too) and replaced Find with E. Tutor (I still have never wished for either). Return to Dust is back as I have occasionally needed two pieces of removal in that category.

raharu
08-03-2008, 10:14 AM
So, what does the deck look like as of late?

raharu
09-02-2008, 07:16 PM
So, what does the deck look like as of late?
?

Rush
09-02-2008, 09:46 PM
Why aren't you running Enlightened Tutor in a deck so heavily relient on so many enchantments?

EDIT: Also, why are you not running brainstorm on a deck that relies on Hoofprints of the Stag as it's wincon?

raharu
09-02-2008, 09:57 PM
Why aren't you running Enlightened Tutor in a deck so heavily relient on so many enchantments?

EDIT: Also, why are you not running brainstorm on a deck that relies on Hoofprints of the Stag as it's wincon?
Why can't you read a decklist?

EDIT: Also, 11+ cantrips > E. Tutor.

Rush
09-02-2008, 10:39 PM
// Lands
5 [RAV] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [LG] Moat
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [IA] Counterspell
2 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [BOK] Quash
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
I see the brainstorm now, however, I still say E Tutor would, at the very least, increase your clock, making it more viable.

Phantom
09-03-2008, 01:16 AM
I'm sad to say I never got this thing finely tuned, and now that I'm back in school, it may never happen. I could never quite figure out the perfect direction. The UW build was streamlined, but too slow for any practical applications. The deck runs a tight manabase, and is mana hungry with all the cantrips and Wishes, so it needs a win con like Bitterblossom. I could never get the mana base perfect in the 3C version, and never quite figured out the correct balance of Blossom/Hoofprints/Dragons, and if any other win cons were worthy.

Despite that, the deck won a lot thanks to the power of quad Moats, and CB (which it can find faster than most control decks thanks to the addition of Ponder).

Rush
09-03-2008, 11:29 AM
Did you never think to include a few Tombstalkers as wincons?

xLupotehwolfx
09-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Hello all,
long time lurker, not much for posting tho. Anyway, i've been tinkering with this list for a while now and I think i've gotten it up to par...at least for my meta.

21-land
4 - Flooded strand
3 - polluted delta
4 - tundra
3 - underground sea
1 - scrubland
2 - plains
1 - swamp
3 - island


2-creature
2 - eternal dragon

2-planeswalker
2 - ajani goldmane

8-enchantmens
3 - moat
3 - bitterblossom
2 - hoofprints of the stag

9-sorcery
2 - innocent blood
3 - wrath of god
4 - ponder

15-instant
4 - stp
4 - bs
4 - fow
3 - counterspell
3 - cunning wish


SB:
1 - pulse of the fields
3 - extirpate
3 - engineered plague
1 - slaughter pact
1 - return to dust
1 - second sunrise
2 - vedalken shackles
1 - enlightened tutor
1 - Hydroblast
1 - trickbind

Whats everyone think: suggestions, criticism etc. just throw it at me.