[Deck] Reanimator [Archive] - Page 10

Sandoz

04-30-2011, 11:03 AM

Hi all,

After lurking several months in this incredibly valuable source of strategic legacy discussion, it is overdue for me to become an active member.

I’ve been playing Reanimator for more than 12 years, now. Though, I had a time-out of about 8 years. My current build is a B/U Reanimator with a white splash.

I also experimented with a mono-black build for a while. I love the speed of a pure black construction. It maximizes the odds of getting a fatty on the board within the first turn.
But, as you know, the mono-black build lacks of protection due to the absence of countermagic. Furthermore, it is quite unlikely that you choose the right creature for reanimation within the first turn without knowing the deck of your opponent. The mono-black build appears to me like kind of a kamikaze gambling style with a solely focus on first hand optimization.

Following the discussion about Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Mental Misstep a couple of thoughts came to my mind:

First, with Misstep we have another „free“ counterspell which doesn’t necessarely require blue mana.

Second, Jin-Gitaxias might be an effective reanimation target regardless which deck your opponent plays. Nevertheless, it is more vulnerable to removal as other approved, but therefore more narrow focussed targets. Thus, you have to be fast in reanimating this guy.

Third, when looking at the above posted deck of Reid Duke I found the build too slow for abusing Jin-Gitaxias as a reanimation target which is independent of the deck your opponents play. From my point of view, his build does not have enough reanimation spells, considering the lack of tutoring effects.
Reanimator doesn’t have a late game. And even not a real mid-game. It’s all about the early game. So, why not picking up the mono-black engine again in order to maximize the odds of getting a Jin-Gitaxias on the board within the first or the second turn at the latest. Now, backed-up with 4 FoW and 4 Missteps, which all do not necessarily require mana to be cast.

Here is the list:

Creatures:
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Sphinx oft he Steel Wind (blue creatures are needed here to raise the number of cards that can be pitched to FoW. Might be Inkwell, as well)

Instants:
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantments:
3 Animate Dead

Artifacts:
4 Lotus Petal

Lands:
4 Underground Sea
10 Swamp

Counts of core-mechanics:

Damage: 8 creatures + 4 Entomb = 12
Drop: 4 Reanimate + 4 Exhume + 3 Animate Dead = 11
Discard: 4 Entomb + 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Cabal Therapy = 12
Disrupt: 4 FoW + 4 Misstep + 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Cabal Therapy = 16
Draw: no library manipulation. Apart from Jin-Gitaxias!
Acceleration: 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Lotus Petal = 8

Ideal game-plan:
Get a Jin-Gitaxias on the board within the first two turns and, ideally, spend a discard spell on your opponent. Draw 7 cards after resolving Jin-Gitaxias to gain access to at least one (more) permission spell. Keep Jin-Gitaxias on the board the following turn of your opponent.
Your opponent is now in top-deck mode. Start the beat down and hopefully get a Sphinx on the board. Draw 7 cards, continue beat down ...

Obvious weaknesses:
- draw-engine solely depending on resolving Jin-Gitaxias. But, on the other hand you have an enhanced number of copies included for each core mechanic of the deck, which makes draw engines like brainstorm less indispensable
- only 16 blue spells in total. This makes casting a FoW more difficult. But hey, you are drawing 7 additional cards after dropping Jin-Gitaxias.
- revealing your hand when discarding a creature as there are no Carful Studies, Putrid Imps or Hapless Researchers included

Lotus Petal & Dark Ritual?
Yes, because this deck wants to maximize the odds of getting Jin-Gitaxias on the board within the first turn. Naturally, these cards become useless after the first two turns. But, this will make your discard decisions in the following end steps easier.

Underground Sea is in there because of side board options, which will definetely incorporate some blue spells as well. May be I should add some fetch lands for this purpose, too.

I am very curious about your thoughts on this approach.

Sturtzilla

04-30-2011, 01:19 PM

I have to agree on that. I prefer running different creatures. A friend was talking about trying out Frost Giant in reanimator. And maybe now is the time to actually try it alongside with Jin.

@ Darklingske

Do you mean Frost Titan? I am hoping that you really didn't mean Frost Giant.

If that was the case, Titan, makes paths and swords cost 3 mana with the added bonus of potentially keeping you opponent's lands or threats tapped down. Against some builds, it might even be able to keep them off of white (or the color of your choice) for the rest of the game. The problem I see with this guy would be that he has pseudo-shroud and pseudo-evasion. He can be targeted and easily blocked. I just don't see him ending the game quickly or singlehandedly and ultimately that is what the creatures we reanimate are supposed to do. On the other hand his converted mana cost is only 6, which would hurt less in the life total department. I guess he could be worth trying out though.

@ lavafrogg

I haven't played the Orlov-Reanimator deck. It looks like it could be pretty powerful. With some of the newer creatures that have been printed it might need a bit of a tune up in that department. I would say it has plenty of potential though. I am not sure about the Wasteland. In my blue-black build there isn't enough space. So I would be careful about that as well seeing as you are running an extra color.

@ Sandoz

First of all, welcome to The Source. I used to play my Reanimator build in the speed vein by running mono-black. I also like your decklist here. My personal views on turning from the mono-black style was a lack of library manipulation and protection. Just as you said, it is very much a gamble whether or not you get the job done. It can be faster with turn 1 or 2 dudes. However most blue/black build now get there on turn 2-3 and have plenty of counter support and library manipulation. These contributions lead to a more favorable mid-game (say turns 4-end of the game) and ability to recover if your dude gets nuked. Now I see that you have some blue splashed in to protect your combo. I see 16 blue cards for FOW pitching. It would actually be a bit lower, say you have a FOW in hand that you want to use, you only have 15 other cards that you can pitch. I think that might be a little bit low, seeing as some of them are reanimation targets. But then again I could be totally wrong. Test it out man! I also suggest running Inkwell the dude is a house and wins games.

Darklingske

05-01-2011, 04:44 AM

Yes, I meant the Forst Titan. Not the Giant. And yes, he is not ideal, but there isn't 1 creature which is perfect. I'll test him out and post my findings.

SMR0079

05-02-2011, 01:03 AM

4th top8 in a row with the deck. Lost a very close 3 game match to CounterThopter.

I run 2 researchers/2 Animate Dead maindeckand Thoughtseizes in the board, as well as a single misdirection.

We will have to see how Mental Mishap shapes the metagame. It's good in Reanimator but it's also really good against it.

NyxathidHorror

05-02-2011, 01:22 AM

We will have to see how Mental Mishap shapes the metagame. It's good in Reanimator but it's also really good against it.

I don't think MM will be that detrimental to Reanimator; I rather enjoy raping counter-magic with my Duress/Thoughtseize/Unmask/Therapy and our own MM/Force/Daze to boot. I'm fairly confident that MM is going to help us, more than hurt. At least that's what I've seen from the past couple weeks of testing. I'm quite elated for this card; however, I'm going to have a bit more problems playing combo now. Combo can't handle playing the 12 disruption spells that most Reanimator builds are packing now.

Sandoz

05-02-2011, 07:45 AM

@ Darklingske

@ Sandoz

First of all, welcome to The Source. I used to play my Reanimator build in the speed vein by running mono-black. I also like your decklist here. My personal views on turning from the mono-black style was a lack of library manipulation and protection. Just as you said, it is very much a gamble whether or not you get the job done. It can be faster with turn 1 or 2 dudes. However most blue/black build now get there on turn 2-3 and have plenty of counter support and library manipulation. These contributions lead to a more favorable mid-game (say turns 4-end of the game) and ability to recover if your dude gets nuked. Now I see that you have some blue splashed in to protect your combo. I see 16 blue cards for FOW pitching. It would actually be a bit lower, say you have a FOW in hand that you want to use, you only have 15 other cards that you can pitch. I think that might be a little bit low, seeing as some of them are reanimation targets. But then again I could be totally wrong. Test it out man! I also suggest running Inkwell the dude is a house and wins games.

Thank you, for your feedback. I think the best choice for the remaining 4 creature slots would be 1 Sphinx, 2 Inkwell and 1 Stormtide Leviathan (as a substitute for Blazing Archon). The only creature I would really miss is Iona. Well, I'll test it out within future local tournaments. And then I'll see if it performes better than my current build.cheers

Sturtzilla

05-02-2011, 09:52 AM

@ Sandoz

Thank you, for your feedback. I think the best choice for the remaining 4 creature slots would be 1 Sphinx, 2 Inkwell and 1 Stormtide Leviathan (as a substitute for Blazing Archon). The only creature I would really miss is Iona. Well, I'll test it out within future local tournaments. And then I'll see if it performes better than my current build.cheers

That sounds pretty solid. I haven't really tested Stormtide Leviathan out too much. I run the Blazing Archon and with the addition of New Phyrexia, I will probably be trying to fit in Elesh Norn. I remember reanimating Iona all the time back right when she first came out, now I am usually tutoring for something else. Don't get me wrong, in some match ups she is game over, period. But against many decks she doesn't quite seal the deal. This might just be a trend due to the metas I play in. Good luck with your build. I am excited to hear about your results.

@ Everyone Discussing Mental Misstep

It is common knowledge that it can counter just about half if not more of our deck. But we still have Daze, Force of Will, and the potential to run Mental Misstep ourselves. We should be able to counter around or Duress, Thoughtseize, or whatever discard you prefer MM out of their hand. I think MM has the potential to wreck this deck, but if you are a relatively intelligent player, you will be able to play through or around it just like the current free counters and graveyard hate.

Lull

05-02-2011, 04:56 PM

Would running two Underground Seas like ANT does hurt Reanimator's Dazes too much?

NyxathidHorror

05-02-2011, 08:13 PM

@ Everyone Discussing Mental Misstep

It is common knowledge that it can counter just about half if not more of our deck. But we still have Daze, Force of Will, and the potential to run Mental Misstep ourselves. We should be able to counter around or Duress, Thoughtseize, or whatever discard you prefer MM out of their hand. I think MM has the potential to wreck this deck, but if you are a relatively intelligent player, you will be able to play through or around it just like the current free counters and graveyard hate.

Exactly my point; couldn't agree more.

Sturtzilla

05-03-2011, 11:19 AM

@ Lull

I am not sure what to say about only running 2 Underground Seas. I run the following mana base for standard blue/black Reanimator.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

I don't run any mana acceleration like Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox. I would be inclined to say that you should be okay, as long as, you play enough fetches and are careful in your selection of lands you fetch. Less Underground Seas means less mana flexibility. The one case that I could see as a potential issue would be against deck with mana denial plans. Decks running Wasteland could pose a problem in the event that you need the Underground Sea. On the other hand, if you are running two less seas you probably have 1 more swamp and 1 more island. So you might be better of facing deck with Wasteland in the first place.

@ NyxathidHorror

Thank you very much!

lordofthepit

05-03-2011, 07:12 PM

Would running two Underground Seas like ANT does hurt Reanimator's Dazes too much?

It would still be okay, but there is really no reason to cut Underground Seas like ANT does.

Ostensibly, both decks need blue mana early to cantrip and black cards to kill. But ANT is more reliant on having a large quantity of mana to go off, so getting Wastelanded hurts in that regard. It also doesn't really need that much initial black mana to go off because Rituals, Lotuses, and LEDs will provide them. Moreover, Reanimator will often want to be able to play Entomb while still having an Island to return to hand for Daze, which is never an issue with ANT.

Sturtzilla

05-03-2011, 08:45 PM

Moreover, Reanimator will often want to be able to play Entomb while still having an Island to return to hand for Daze, which is never an issue with ANT.

Exactly! Same situation but sometimes you need to Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy on turn one, regardless of whom the target is. Having an Island allows for Daze activation while you are going full tilt for your creature. Everybody likes a little bit of protection. ; ) Like I mentioned in my last post, if you run enough fetches you can basically make sure you have an Underground Sea on turn one even if you are only running two. But ultimately you should ask yourself, "Why shouldn't I run 4?"

Pingu

05-04-2011, 07:40 AM

I'm trying to build the following list, but i have a noob doubt, when i have the emperion on the field can i use FOW or MM for their alternative cost? If so, i loose life?

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

3 Hapless Researcher
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

Hopo

05-04-2011, 07:43 AM

I'm trying to build the following list, but i have a noob doubt, when i have the emperion on the field can i use FOW or MM for their alternative cost? If so, i loose life?

You cannot pay life when emperion is in play, so you can't use fow, fetchlands or misstep. As an upside, if you Reanimate emperion, you do not lose life since emperion is already in play when you should be losing life equal to itse casting cost.

Pingu

05-04-2011, 08:19 AM

You cannot pay life when emperion is in play, so you can't use fow, fetchlands or misstep. As an upside, if you Reanimate emperion, you do not lose life since emperion is already in play when you should be losing life equal to itse casting cost.

Thank you for the answer.

I think Emperion its not good enough, he cancels out the best permissions spells, against zoo where he should shine, the oponent can topdeck a swords/path and continue the beating, i'm testing Platinum Angel in it's place, not a great body to beat but a solid stabilizer.

So the obvious gameplan its to reanimate Jin-Gitaxias, fuel the hand with permissions spells and a way to reanimate Platinum Angel next turn to stabilize the table and start the beating, with Iona it's faster (duh) but i think it's way better reanimate the Platinum first to garantee that we don't loose to the table or a weird topdeck. I think that Jin-Gitaxias it's better than any other creature on reanimate (if he survive, this new counter helps a lot in this matter) because he prepares like no other the hand and put the oponent in topdeck mode, so for me there is no reason to run any number less than four. Give me your thoughts please.

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

3 Hapless Researcher
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Platinum Angel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

jcsy

05-04-2011, 09:06 AM

how about adding Lotus petal, to speed up the reanimation ?

Pingu

05-04-2011, 09:39 AM

how about adding Lotus petal, to speed up the reanimation ?

Im not to sure about this, it's nice to acelerate one turn but what would you cut? The deck becomes more fast but less consistent. On the other silver bullet builds the deck had to kill fast but in this build because of Jin-Gitaxias we have more of a combo/control gameplan, so i think we can wait one more turn for consistence.

Nevertheless thank you for the idea.

Sideboard is my main councern, i play on a metagame with Dredge so there is lots of gravehate, BGW Junk, 4C Counterbalance, ANT/Teps and Affinity, recomendations with cards and how to sb are welcome.

practical joke

05-04-2011, 09:51 AM

Im not to sure about this, it's nice to acelerate one turn but what would you cut? The deck becomes more fast but less consistent. On the other silver bullet builds the deck had to kill fast but in this build because of Jin-Gitaxias we have more of a combo/control gameplan, so i think we can wait one more turn for consistence.

Nevertheless thank you for the idea.

Sideboard is my main councern, i play on a metagame with Dredge so there is lots of gravehate, BGW Junk, 4C Counterbalance, ANT/Teps and Affinity, recomendations with cards and how to sb are welcome.

if you read about 50 pages back you see the old list with mystical tutor I played witg lotus petal.

I only played 14 lands and 4 petals, why?

petal acts as a land and how many lands do you want after the second?

petal acts as a 1 use land, safe from stifle and wasteland.

Pingu

05-04-2011, 10:17 AM

if you read about 50 pages back you see the old list with mystical tutor I played witg lotus petal.

I only played 14 lands and 4 petals, why?

petal acts as a land and how many lands do you want after the second?

petal acts as a 1 use land, safe from stifle and wasteland.

After the second of course i dont want none, but i always want at least 2 permanently, and with the petal we loose that, other thing, i took a look on some of last year reanimator decks with mystical that top 8 in several tournaments and none had petal, the only aceleration was the single tutorable dark ritual, im not trying to flame you or anything but maybe your option of running petal was not the correct one, petal is great if everything runs smoothly, now if you can't get past a counter after breaking petal and then got wasteled, or could not get the 2nd land to exhume, it's pretty much game over right? You get extra speed but less consistence and i think the deck can afford going off a turn later.

Sturtzilla

05-04-2011, 11:44 AM

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

3 Hapless Researcher
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

I am not trying to be rude or anything but we just discussed this on the past page. Your posted decklist is a one card change from the SCG Reid Duke build. You have opted for a singleton one copy of Animate Dead over Thoughtseize. Otherwise they are the exact same list. If you have not read the article, which I bet you have... here it is:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21746_New_Phyrexia_And_An_Old_Favorite_In_Legacy.html

To reiterate my opinions on the deck, JGCA can be awesome but you must protect him. The inclusion of Mental Misstep can help with that. The question that I have would be, "With all of the creatures that we currently have, why would we selectively pick JGCA?" We have shrouders, lifelinkers, and cards that hose specific decks, why not pick them? Sure he generates tons of card advantage, but what happens when he gets removed before your end step and you are out cards, life, and probably the game? My testing has shown that he is promising, but not the end all creature that some claim him to be.

I also don't think that running 4 JGCA is a good plan. 2-3 would be sufficient with the tutoring effects this deck runs. That also lets you run more flexibility in creatures. I am also not a proponent of Platinum Emperion or Platinum Angel. Emperion turns off your ability to thin your deck by fetches, use Force of Will. This is dis-synergistic, which is generally bad. Both of these options are removed by StP and Path, which are very prevalent. I think that both Blazing Archon and Empyrial Archangel serve this slot better. Sphinx of the Steel Wind also can turn around many of the games where we would be facing down a horde of creatures while at low life. One last note, Elesh Norn has some major potential for serving in this same slot post NPH. Against some decks this fatty will be a simple blow out, while against others it could mean reducing opposing creatures stats to a manageable level. Sure some of those creatures can also be removed by StP and Path, but in my opinion they offer more benefit than the means to no lose/lose life. Just some food for thought.

Pingu

05-04-2011, 12:39 PM

I am not trying to be rude or anything but we just discussed this on the past page. Your posted decklist is a one card change from the SCG Reid Duke build. You have opted for a singleton one copy of Animate Dead over Thoughtseize. Otherwise they are the exact same list. If you have not read the article, which I bet you have... here it is:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21746_New_Phyrexia_And_An_Old_Favorite_In_Legacy.html

You're not being rude at all :laugh:
I did not see the article, i start reading for the bottom the last page and stop on the reanimate with burning wish...

The question about why use Jin-Gitaxias over the others is simple, he is gamebreaking like no other, after banning the tutor this deck died, ok you have all the creatures that you mentioned lifegainers, shrouders etc. but still the deck underperformed because it lacks a solid gameplan, you have only 4 tutors in this deck that allow you to choose wich creature comes for battlefield, that is not solid, imagine iona against zoo, sphinx against any combo etc. Only 4 cards dont allow you to choose the best creature for any given situation, now, playing 4 Jin-Gitaxias gives you a gameplan, if he survives and you must garantee that he does the game is basicaly over, if the table is out of control there is no creature that makes you win the game, extend it a few turns ok the Empyrial Archangel, Sphinx or Blazing Archon do that but that's not enough, how many times do you reanimate a creature against zoo and lost the game because it was not the best one or simply because it was not enough, you must put the pressure on the other side and Jin makes that, you must play this deck like a combo that needs protection until end of your turn, with 12 almost free counters you can protect him at least one time and after you draw 7 if you cant protect him in the oponents turn you have very but very bad luck, after the oponents turn you enter in a situation that reminds me Iona on the field against Solidarity or Burn.

Sturtzilla

05-04-2011, 01:24 PM

@ Pingu

Well I hope you enjoyed the read. : ) I agree that the inclusion of 4 JGCA can improve consistency of the deck, if you only plan on reanimating JGCA. It however reduces the flexibility of the deck. I still don't think that the Platinum creatures are the right route to go for a win. And ultimately we are talking about bringing back consistency, while maintaining some flexibility. We are not be able to rewind a year to the days of accessing Mystical Tutor for consistent turn 2-3 fatties of your choice. JGCA mainly offers post reanimation consistency. He does improve you random discards with Careful Study a small amount, if you are running 4 copies. The real benefit of JGCA does not occur until after you have set up the reanimation. The proposed builds including JGCA may actually worsen consistency.

Here's why: the inclusion of Mental Misstep in my build would compete for slots with Daze, Lim-Dul's Vault or Personal Tutor, and Thoughtseize. Removing LDV, PT, and/or TS (even if I rarely use it to bin dudes) would reduce consistency. The removal of Daze, I can nearly stomach, but Daze can hit threats the MM will not. To fit in the protection for JGCA, you will lose some ability to tutor for missing pieces which you would use to set up the reanimation.

Ultimately I am unsure if JGCA will provide the consistency that this deck needs to move back to the power of its heyday.

Pingu

05-05-2011, 03:47 AM

Yes i enjoy it, i agree with almost everything in the article, and the fetches are the same (twilight zone moment).

@ Pingu

Here's why: the inclusion of Mental Misstep in my build would compete for slots with Daze, Lim-Dul's Vault or Personal Tutor, and Thoughtseize. Removing LDV, PT, and/or TS (even if I rarely use it to bin dudes) would reduce consistency. The removal of Daze, I can nearly stomach, but Daze can hit threats the MM will not. To fit in the protection for JGCA, you will lose some ability to tutor for missing pieces which you would use to set up the reanimation.

Ultimately I am unsure if JGCA will provide the consistency that this deck needs to move back to the power of its heyday.

I understand what you are trying to say, but with the new counter (of course oponents will also use it but i think that is stronger here) i believe that you can loose some of the cards that you mentioned because it becomes easier to protect your play (entomb, reanimate, creature etc) so LDV, PT or TS becomes less relevant, and with Gin you ensure that you can reanimate another creature next turn while ensuring enough protection, i think this is the correct route.

Now about the other creatures in the deck, about platinum i play it because i want to ensure that i dont loose next turn (its a pain taking 10 damage to reanimate Gin and his body is very weak), but of course if there is another creature that is better keeping me alive im very open in this slots.

And thank you for this discussion

Modus Pwnens

05-05-2011, 09:20 AM

Pingu

05-05-2011, 09:36 AM

Okay, since people are discussing Jin everywhere, i'd like to have a look at another card...

Have anyone tried Chancellor of the Annex in a Reanimator build?
it is essentialy an one-sided lodestone golem, that flys, and can make your opponent stalls in the first turn, giving you a little more time to combo-out (even if the chancellor ins't your animation target of choice).
it can also be used in multiples (4 would be too much, though. 1-2 seems to be a good call), and doesn't get eat by Karakas.

anyway, can anyone discuss about him?

I dont think that its good enough, its a slow clock has an easy go around ability and has no protection on its own (Gitaxias has no protection also but his draw and reduce 7 abilities are far better than this one), its not blue (people tend to ignore this but its very important). But hey, i might be wrong.

Sturtzilla

05-05-2011, 11:02 AM

@ Pingu

Well I am glad you enjoyed the read. All I can say would be that only time will tell whether or not JGCA will truly be the change in consistency that this deck needs. Good luck to all that will be testing out this change.

@ Modus Pwnens

I have to agree that while the Chancellor of the Annex may slow an opponent down a turn or two, its lack of protection and smaller size do not really warrant it a place in Reanimator. Although it does have some pretty good synergy with early Dazes.

Clark Kant

05-05-2011, 08:11 PM

I just did a little bit of testing with a single Sheoldred, Whispering One proxied up, and I think the card has potential as a one of to supplement Blazing Archon against aggro decks.

Against aggressive decks that are outrunning you, Blazing Archon sticks around a few turns preventing your opponent from attacking while you hope to reanimate another creature before it gets killed and your opponent starts hitting you again.

Sheoldred does a similar function, only it does it better in many situations. The few turns that you keep it alive, your opponent loses creatures, and he as a 6/6 can also block and kill another creature.

Also, it can take out an Emrakul or Progenitus or what not. Like Archon, he needs to be protected. But unlike Archon, he swings the game considerably to your favor each turn he survives.

Sturtzilla

05-05-2011, 11:25 PM

@ Clark Kant

I hate to be "that guy," but I am about to do it! Yes, I am about to quote a previous post that I made. Check it out!

I have been browsing spoilers and was wondering what other reanimator players are thinking about Sheoldred, Whispering One? This guy seems to be a Reya Dawnbringer with the additional sacrifice clause for your opponent. I realize he does not have shroud or any real protection like many of the creatures that we prefer to play. What are other players thoughts on this new arrival?

When I saw this guy in the spoiler, I was initially really excited, but then I had some serious reservations. I am glad I was not the only one who was considering him. He may not wreck house from a combat standpoint like some of our other creatures, but he has the potential to generate further reanimation without the use of life or cards. In addition to furthering the deck's main plan, he could slow down some decks and even kill some decks, due to his sacrifice effect for the opponent. You are quite right that we would have to keep him alive, but if we are considering running Mental Misstep, then we should be able to better protect him. Every turn that he survives, he will shift the momentum of the game in a dramatic manner. He fills a great void of providing this deck a from of creature removal. I would say on the argument of who is a better target to entomb and reanimate, between him and the Blazing Archon, it is up in the air based on your specific match up. I would say he needs some testing because he could provide yet another great addition to this deck. Also don't rule out Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as yet another target that will potentially swing matches.

alderon666

05-06-2011, 02:13 PM

I dont think that its good enough, its a slow clock has an easy go around ability and has no protection on its own (Gitaxias has no protection also but his draw and reduce 7 abilities are far better than this one), its not blue (people tend to ignore this but its very important). But hey, i might be wrong.

Altough if you were to make a realy fast Reanimator deck, with acceleration and free counters instead of Seize/Duress...

4x Daze
4x FoW
4x MM

Maybe Petals or Rituals.

Once you show one of these, not only they lose a turn or lose a card, but on the play it's free protection. It's slow, but it makes Daze that much more relevant and counter wars are basically impossible for the opponent.

A turn 1 on the play Reanimate on this guy, after showing it before the game begins... is basically game.

Clark Kant

05-06-2011, 02:31 PM

That's a good point, he seems strong as well.

Sheoldred, Whispering One against aggro control, emrakul, progenitus, dreadnought, tombstalker etc.

Chancellor of the Annex against combo

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite against weenie aggro

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur against every deck that doesn't splash white for StP/Path.

So that's what, four creatures from this set, on this page alone, that seem like they would work well in this deck.

I'm going to try to get my hands on one of each and play it to see which I end up Entomb for more often.

Darklingske

05-07-2011, 12:20 PM

Sheoldred, Whispering One against aggro control, emrakul, progenitus, dreadnought, tombstalker etc.

Chancellor of the Annex against combo

please explain why you would use Sheoldred against Emrakul, Progenitus & tombstalker? Either they fly or have protection so Sheoldred does nothing against them.
The Chancellor is indeed very powerfull against Combo. I will also try him out.

Scordata

05-07-2011, 12:42 PM

As a combo player, I can say that you might as well just ritual into negator then reanimate chancellor. He's terribad.
Combo goes off turn two or three with protection, and you won't even get a chance to swing.

Darklingske

05-07-2011, 03:20 PM

You do realize that chancellor forces you to pay 1 extra for every spell? And that Reanimator puts a big guy on the field the 2 turn?

Scordata

05-07-2011, 03:24 PM

Thorn of amethist is not a problem. Iona still hurts more than anything. Maybe if your opponent is daffy duck I guess it might work.

Darklingske

05-07-2011, 03:36 PM

Thorn isn't a problem when you can bounce it. The only decks that play thorn are tribal decks with no counters. So, we play thorn wich can hit also and have counters to annul your bounce. Yeah, it's a walk in the park...

Scordata

05-07-2011, 03:40 PM

I suspect you don't have competant combo players in your meta. As a tendrils player, I would jump for joy seeing my oppenent reanimate a 5/6 thorn. I'm trying to help you here. Iona does it better.

Darklingske

05-07-2011, 04:08 PM

Okay, I'll play your game. Please explain how you will deal with Chancellor. Enlighten me. The problem Iona has is that you can name only 1 color. Therefor artifacts can always be played and the other color also. If we name U, you can just continue to play artifacts and AN resulting in us dying. Naming B lets you continue playing cantrips and artifacts until the bounce is ound and we die.

Scordata

05-07-2011, 04:12 PM

Any bounce or kill spell on the turn before the combo. Cabal rituals also work wonders. It suffers from the meddeling mage effect. Slows us down, but doesn't shut us off quite like iona naming black g1 and naming blue g2.

Yes, its a 4 turn clock, but if you cast reanimate, you're down a lot of life. That means storm equals like, 5 for a lethal tendrils.
Veteran storm junkies won't be phased by taxing effects.

Clark Kant

05-08-2011, 02:25 AM

please explain why you would use Sheoldred against Emrakul, Progenitus & tombstalker? Either they fly or have protection so Sheoldred does nothing against them.
The Chancellor is indeed very powerfull against Combo. I will also try him out.

Read the card. Sheoldred makes your opponent sacrifice creatures. It's not a targetted effect, so protection does jack to stop it. Your opponent Show and Tells, or Polymorphs or whatever an Emrakul into play, you drop a Sheoldred, and they have to sac it before they get a chance to attack.

Iona is probably better against combo than Chancellor.

Shelodred, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur are the cards that I'm really excited about.

Elesh Norn since it is one sided wrath effect against most of the creature based decks in the format, Shelodred because it's a recurrent Gatekeeper + reanimate on a large body, the stops Show and Tell into play emraku, and Jin because if dropped early enough, he basically wins the game in any situation where your opponent cant kill him before your end step.

Darklingske

05-12-2011, 02:56 AM

Anyone already read the set review part 2 from Drew Levin? He posts an interesting list for reanimator in it. I can't help but feel the need to test that one out. But not with the Kiki kill. I'm a huge fan of the Necrotic Ooze kill and will try that one out. Tonight I can do some testing. Results will be posted tomorrow!

kingsey

05-12-2011, 07:01 PM

Darklingske

05-13-2011, 04:30 AM

So I tested the new list yesterday against Merfolk and TopterSword. But first the list:

Creatures
3 Bloodghast
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

Legendary Creatures
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

Sorceries
3 Buried Alive
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
3 Exhume
3 Reanimate

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

It is a strange list and it has some awkward cardchoises. But now on to the testings. First up was merfolk. And yes, MM is very bothersome. But then again, we run it too. And Fow! If I could resolve a Buried alive on turn 1 or 2 I went for the ooze kill. The biggest problem I ran into was that if there was a piece of the combo stuck in my hand, there was no possibility to get it in the graveyard. A big downside!! And resolving a Jin-Gitaxia when the fish already have one or two creatures on board means that they can just outrace me. Another big disadvantage! Win percentage was about 60%. Not overwhelming but acceptable.
The second matches were againt ThopterSword with Tezz. This MU was pretty one sided. They have the same package to disrupt us as merfolk, but the clock is much slower. And that is the big advantage for us. Since they don't put pressure as the fishes do, we have all the time in the world to assemble the kill (Well, not all the time but 2-3 turns). And that is more then enough. Win percentage was 85%.
I must stress that all games were played Pre-board since my SB was not yet assembled. My conclusions of the evening: the deck is fun but it is a far from optimal list. I'm changing back to the old ways. 7 to 9 fatties and a healthy mix of them!

Pingu

05-13-2011, 10:35 AM

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

2 Hapless Researcher
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Platinum Angel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

I test this list against Bant and Junk, both lists have KOTR and Karakas which is a pain. It seems like 2 good startpoints especially bant (counters, removal and semifast clock), and the results were pretty impressive, against bant Jitaxias is good but dont excels its surely better than any random creature the deck used to have but the real Stars in this matchup was Sphinx/Misstep i won about 35/40 matches and we made about 50, all without sb, his deck also has misstep but is far better in reanimate, without entomb on the first 3 turns jitaxias proved to be strong and worthy of the 4 slots, all the times that i draw 7 i won, the games that i lost was because the counter war against StP. Against junk i play about 40 games and only lost 3, two of them i muliganed to 5, wich says pretty much, here the Jitaxias is the real deal, drawing 7 and reanimating Iona (white) next turn, with sb this matchup tends to get worse but very winnable.

The card that had the biggest impact was Mental Misstep, in reanimator is basically a force of will without card/drawback, i know that is also great against us, but the raw power that this deck has make misstep too strong, almost unfair. Jitaxias is the best in random discards wich happen a lot (miss mystical tutor so much) so, like i said before i believe Jitaxias is the right route to take, he prepares everything, protection, gas and the right tool for the job which were the biggest issues that the deck had without the tutor.

The next decks to test are going to be, fast zoo, big zoo, merfolks and goblins.

Mr.Dieth

05-13-2011, 11:00 AM

I am testing about the same list as pingu with the following exeptions -1 brainstorm, -1Island, +1hapless researcher, +1 blazing archon.

And I also tested against junk, totally dominating him, He only won 1 match where he Could get a karakas in play by turn 3

I also tested against Merfolk which is also favorable! If they can put a lot of pressure, they are low on counters and even a blazing archon turn 4 is enough ! If the have a lot of counters they don't put a lot of pressure and you can just lean back and wait until you finally get a creature in the bin. ( animate dead is nice against cursecatcher :-P, I plan to maybe cut an exhume for an extra animate dead ) I won about 65% of the games

I haven't tested after sideboard yet.. But since nobody is packing a lot of gravehate I am not seeying any problems ( misdirection is tech against removal/hymn/counters/ ... )

I think reanimator might make it's way back into the meta! thank you MM and Jin !

thranmonster

05-15-2011, 04:28 PM

Reanimator placed 2nd at BoM. Very nice to see Reanimator is making its comeback!

Clark Kant

05-15-2011, 04:45 PM

Reanimator placed 2nd at BoM. Very nice to see Reanimator is making its comeback!

What is BoM, how many people were playing and most importantly, can you post the list?

Update: BoM is apparently a large european tournament with 600+ legacy players. Still waiting on someone to post the list here.

thranmonster

05-15-2011, 05:23 PM

Sorry couldn't find a list, otherwise I would have posted it up too. Just read a report on the event that took place this weekend.

Sturtzilla

05-18-2011, 10:50 AM

Hey All!

I have been testing a new Reanimator list featuring some of our New Phyrexia arrivals. Check out the list below. I have been having surprisingly great success with this new list. JGCA really seems to have brought back some of the consistency that this deck has been lacking as of late.

Creatures 7

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

Spells 35

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Mental Misstep
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will

Land 18

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard 15
???
Currently my sideboard in in flux, but I will list some options that I like in the match ups below.

I have had the chance to play quite a few games against Monoblue Merfolk, Junk, TES, and Enchantress. I also played a couple against Burn and Affinity. Overall with the addition of JGCA as the primary reanimation target many of our pre-NPH match ups that were unfavorable have become rather favorable. At first I was rather skeptical about JGCA, but after some solid testing I am on board with this new bomb.

Merfolk
The list I played against was running MM, Daze, and FoW in addition to Standstill. I believe I only lost one game in a set of five or six. Since many merfolk builds don't run actual removal, would attempt to MM his Aether Vial. After that I would hold my remaining counter magic to protect my combo. The redundancy of 3 JGCA made the deck pretty consistent and in these games I would have him on the table turn 2 or 3. Even merfolk couldn't handle this speed; this might have been because I would take out their vial or their counters they spent to keep the vial would hurt their tempo or card advantage.

From the board, I like to use Pithing Needles as they hit, Mutavualt, Wasteland, Cursecatcher, Coralhelm Commander, and Aether Vial. Spell Pierces can help too in the counter wars of this match up.

Junk
In this match up I was reluctant to pull out JGCA, due to the loads of removal this deck runs. But I figured that I had plenty of counter magic to protect him most of the time. I actually didn't lose a game to this deck. Again I had really fast hands with turn 2-3 creatures. I also played around a little with what fatty to pull. JGCA really shut this deck down, but I would caution players to have maybe even two counter spells when digging him up. In this match up, use your brainstorms to protect cards when being disrupted. And use Brainstorm and fetches to fix your draws (actually you should always do this). Daze is also major in early game. Saying no to a goyf and then reanimating it can be pretty good also.

Graveyard hate can help keep opposing gofys and knights small, although speed can win the match up with out it. Misdirection can be devastating if you flip a Hymn or removal spell back at your opponent.

TES
This match up with a turn 2-3 dude should be a blow out. With JGCA, you opponent is forced to storm off whether or not they have all of the pieces. Elesh Norn shines in this match up because she will keep those pesky goblin tokens off the board. Generally the deck runs no main deck removal you don't have to worry as much about your protecting your dudes. Some boards may have sorcery based removal or bounce to wish for. Watch out for that. Otherwise this is a really straight forward match up. Get JGCA and counter their Silence and Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor/or Ad Nauseam. If they go the goblin route, nuke them with ENGC. One other thought, Iona calling black or red really shuts this deck down too. I would wager black is more crippling, but that would depend on the specific build.

I guess blue elemental blast could work. I really didn't sideboard against this deck.

Enchantress
If you can't beat this deck with JGCA, you should probably try a different deck. Watch out for Lignify or other goofy shenanigans.

Burn
Iona calling red wins games, as does JGCA with protection. It is wise to not reanimate them as this could put you into kill range. Otherwise this is a pretty straight forward match up.

Affinity
JGCA isn't always the best bet here, as affinity should have puked its hand onto the table by basically turn 2-3. Specific creature choice will depend on the speed of each hand. If you can land JGCA on turn two while you are on the play you will most likely win. Sometimes I think ENGC is our go to creature as she will nuke Memnites, Ornithopters, Signal Pests, and Frogmites, while also making the larger guys manageable. Also watch out for both maindeck and sideboard dispatches. They can ruin our day if you aren't packing some counter magic love.

In this match up I like pithing needle as it hits, Ravager, Cranial Plating, Planeswalkers (rare but some builds as running the new Tezz). Energy Flux or Null Rod could help as well. With Flux be careful about your inkwell or sphinx.

Overall I think the deck has the potential to be back among the top tier. I am still working out the sideboard. There are a few maindeck considerations that I have as well. I may add an additional Animate Dead or Thoughtseize but more play testing will tell on those. As for the creatures I am pretty happy with them at the moment. We have answers to most of the major decks out there. I am interested to hear any advice, suggestions, or other feedback from other reanimator players. So hit me up. Enjoy.

Garobidou

05-18-2011, 12:04 PM

Hi,

- About your creatures choice : I won't comment on it as I haven't tested JGCA yet. My preference goes for standard creatures (sidenote : in the current metagame, with lots of Merfolks (and TA), Sphinx of the steel wind is really powerful)

- About your spells : I feel the 11 / 10 / 9 Creatures / Discard / Reanimate setup to be suboptimal. You should either remove a creature for an Animate dead or increase both Discard / Reanimate. Moreover I'm not totally sold on Thoughtseize as a discard outlet : yeah it can serve many purposes (Discard outlet for you, permission, Creature + discard if you can hit something relevant in your opponent's hand) but I hate having to show my hand if I use it as a discard outlet.

In the current/expected metagame, I can see 4 ways to go for Reanimator :

1) UB with Thoughtseize as 3rd Discard outlet
This is something you seems to adress with your build : however I would do -1 land -1 Daze +1 Thoughtseize +1 Animate dead

2) UB with with Hapless Researcher instead of Thoughsteize. Hapless Researcher is a very underestimated card :
- Opponent usually think twice before missteping it (one won't misstep such a low card...)
- It is a very good T1 (better than Careful study when you don't have a creature in hand)
- It is Cursecatcher-proof
- It can chump
- It's very good against Dredge

3) UB with 3-4 Show and tell MD (see Jean Mary Accart Dec 10 lists) : this deck is a bit slower but more consistent (12/12/12 setup)

4) Red splash which offers :
- MD Firestorm : misstep-proof discard outlet, good against UW Landstill (answer to peacekeeper), not that bad against aggro
- MD Burning wish (not sure of this one, it has to be tested)
- SB REB
- SB Stronghold gambit

whienot

05-18-2011, 01:07 PM

For what it's worth, the Reanimator deck that placed 2nd in BoM had a red splash. I don't have a decklist, only saw that he mentioned Red Elemental Blast was great out of the board.

jjflipped

05-18-2011, 01:20 PM

For what it's worth, the Reanimator deck that placed 2nd in BoM had a red splash. I don't have a decklist, only saw that he mentioned Red Elemental Blast was great out of the board.
Where did you see the mention of the blasts? I REALLY want to see the list soon.

Sturtzilla

05-18-2011, 01:53 PM

About your spells : I feel the 11 / 10 / 9 Creatures / Discard / Reanimate setup to be suboptimal. You should either remove a creature for an Animate dead or increase both Discard / Reanimate. Moreover I'm not totally sold on Thoughtseize as a discard outlet : yeah it can serve many purposes (Discard outlet for you, permission, Creature + discard if you can hit something relevant in your opponent's hand) but I hate having to show my hand if I use it as a discard outlet.

Thanks for the response and the critique. I was wondering if you could explain the 11/10/9 ratio that you seem to be mentioning from my build? I am under the impression that for creatures you are considering my actual creatures (7) and my entombs (4), totaling 11. For discard you are considering entomb (4), careful study (4) and thoughtseize (2), which would total 10. And for reanimation you are considering the reanimates (4), exhumes (4), and animate dead (1), totaling 9. I am just checking to make sure I have this correct. If I have this correct, my testing has been pretty good. Why would you suggest the 11/11/10 or 12/12/12 configurations? Do they just offer more consistency?

Clark Kant

05-18-2011, 02:25 PM

Yes your guess is correct. And yes 10/10/10 11/11/11 and 12/12/12 builds are more consistent and have fewer mulligans. I love your list but I also completely agree with Garobidous analysis. I would make room for Hapless Researcher and additional Animate Deads. Both cards are fantastic.

Also I do think that 10/9/9, 11/10/10 and 12/11/11 mixes can work and work exceedingly well but ONLY if the Reanimate effect (and card draw discard like Hapless Researcher) is/are what you are playing extras of. This is because the reanimate effect is what almost always gets countered, targeted by discard effects and what you need extra copies of if your creature gets taken out by an Edict effect, burn, or Snuff Out.

So you could and should maximize the number of reanimate effects you play. Cutting Animate Dead is a bad idea. Unless you are playing Show and Tell, you should be playing 2-3 Animate Deads.

Perhaps something like this...

Creatures 10

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
3 Hapless Researcher

Spells 33

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Mental Misstep
4 Reanimate
3 Daze
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will

Land 17

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp

Or better yet...

Creatures 8

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Hapless Researcher

Spells 34

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Mental Misstep
4 Reanimate
4 Daze
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will

Land 18

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sturtzilla

05-18-2011, 02:56 PM

Thanks for the help. As I posted earlier, I am considering/trying to potentially fit in one more Animate Dead and possibly another Thoughtseize. Honestly, I have personally felt that Thoughtseize is a bit blunderous. You point it at yourself and reveal you hand to your opponent and lose two life. I find it to be a bit of a steep price to pay to bin a fatty. Maybe Hapless Researchers are the way to go since they cost no life and can chump block. They would fill the nearly the same niche as Putrid Imps. Years ago, I used to run those guys. I have never really played with him (HR) in the build, but I would imagine that he can be both better or worse than Careful Study, when it comes to the looting process. Yet if you have a dude in hand, he is almost aways going to be better than Thoughtseize. However the ability to beat against some decks for a point or two and the ability to chump in other matches could prove stellar. I will consider it and see where it goes. Thanks.

Clark Kant

05-18-2011, 03:10 PM

Yeah, Hapless Researcher is awesome. It's a mini Careful Study (draws a card and pitches to FoW).

But it also dodges Cursecatcher, can protect you from Edict effects and can chumpblock.

In your list I would cut a fattie and both Thoughtseize for a second Animate Dead and 2 Hapless Researcher.

Let us know which fatty you decide to cut.

Sandoz

05-18-2011, 04:03 PM

Many times I meditated on whether Hapless Researcher (or Putrid Imp) is a better choice than Thoughtseize, too. And all relevant pros of Hapless Researcher have been mentioned above.

But, there is one additonal aspect I would like to throw in regarding Thoughseize:
The chance of having one of the other 8 discard spells (i.e. Entomb and Careful Study) in your starting hand is about 65%. In theses situations I would always prefer a Thoughtseize rather than a Hapless Researcher as an additional card.
Because, as mentioned above as well, Thoughtseize adds to the Permission/Disruption/Protection slot of the deck. And this slot, I think, should have a count of at least 12 copies. Especially when running creatures like JGCA with less self protection than the other guys.

Just my 2 Cent.

Clark Kant

05-18-2011, 04:06 PM

You really dont want to be using Thoughtseize to target yourself. You want to take out your opponents removal and counters with it, not reveal your hand to your opponent.

I think Mental Misstep fights with Duress/Thoughtseize for the third disruption slot (Daze and FoW are auto 4 ofs).

The question of which to use depends on how common FoW and non Swords based removal is in your meta. This is especially true if you are playing Jin Gitaxis.

Also I do think that 10/9/9, 11/10/10 and 12/11/11 mixes can work and work exceedingly well but ONLY if the Reanimate effect (and card draw discard like Hapless Researcher) is/are what you are playing extras of. This is because the reanimate effect is what almost always gets countered, targeted by discard effects and what you need extra copies of if your creature gets taken out by an Edict effect, burn, or Snuff Out.

So you could and should maximize the number of reanimate effects you play. Cutting Animate Dead is a bad idea. Unless you are playing Show and Tell, you should be playing 2-3 Animate Deads.

For example...

Creatures 8

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Hapless Researcher

Spells 35

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
4 Daze
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will

Land 17

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp

If not maindecked, I think Shelodred, the whispering one definately belongs in the board along with that black land that empties your opponents yard when it comes into play to serve double duty vs land destruction decks.

Sandoz

05-18-2011, 04:45 PM

@ Clark:
The list you posted would translate into:
Creatures: 10
Discard: 11
Reanimate: 11
Disrupt: 10

The list I'm currently thinking about looks like this (actually quite similar to the list of Sturtzilla):

Creatures (7)
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells (35)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Thoughtseize

Land (18)

-----
Thus,
Creatures: 11
Discard: 10
Reanimate: 10
Disrupt: 13
-----

The differences are marginal. And yes, the fine-tuning always depends on the meta.

From my point of view the deck can't afford to devote 3 slots solely to disruption (for example: 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 4 MM) without crippling the discard and reanimate mechanics significantly.
And this is where Thoughtseize comes into play, serving as a disruption and discard mechanic.

I'm also thinking about adding 3 Show and Tell MD (replacing some reanimate and discard spells). But, in order to compensate the speed loss this would most likely imply the addition of Lotus Petals, as well.

Sandoz

05-18-2011, 04:51 PM

@ Clark
Well, looks like you edited your post while I was responding.
Thus, the count of the core mechanics of your list might have changed now.
Nevertheless.

whienot

05-18-2011, 05:01 PM

Where did you see the mention of the blasts? I REALLY want to see the list soon.

It was in the Top 8 player profiles (http://manainfinito.com/articulos/perfiles-top8-bom-legacy). I'm curious if he was playing a Welder list.

Sturtzilla

05-18-2011, 06:42 PM

I'm also thinking about adding 3 Show and Tell MD (replacing some reanimate and discard spells). But, in order to compensate the speed loss this would most likely imply the addition of Lotus Petals, as well.

I would like to caution you on playing Show and Tell in your main. For awhile I ran 2-3 SnT in my main and I was rarely really excited about it, when I drew it. Running both SnT and reanimate effects splits your strategy and segments the overall plan of the deck. This makes it less likely to do either of the options as well as it could do one of them individually. Yes, it gives you more, generally slower, options but it can make for tough decisions. For example, do you bin a fatty or hold it? Depending on your hand, you could have a solid answer or be drawing for either a SnT or a reanimate in which case you may have chosen the wrong option. I personally don't like it in the main. I have moved mine to the board and use them if I anticipate graveyard hate. As for game one, I think they just slow you down and make for harder decisions. You should think about what comes down on the other side of the table too... Peacekeeper getting dropped on the other side of the table can mean an outright game over if you don't have an answer.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

05-18-2011, 06:51 PM

I would like to caution you on playing Show and Tell in your main. For awhile I ran 2-3 SnT in my main and I was rarely really excited about it, when I drew it. Running both SnT and reanimate effects splits your strategy and segments the overall plan of the deck. This makes it less likely to do either of the options as well as it could do one of them individually. Yes, it gives you more, generally slower, options but it can make for tough decisions. For example, do you bin a fatty or hold it? Depending on your hand, you could have a solid answer or be drawing for either a SnT or a reanimate in which case you may have chosen the wrong option. I personally don't like it in the main. I have moved mine to the board and use them if I anticipate graveyard hate. As for game one, I think they just slow you down and make for harder decisions. You should think about what comes down on the other side of the table too... Peacekeeper getting dropped on the other side of the table can mean an outright game over if you don't have an answer.

I always maindeck 1 Darkblast to nab with Entomb because there is always someone playing Peacekeeper in my meta.

Kaslan

05-18-2011, 07:21 PM

hey guys,
I was toying around with a new build for reanimator...

Instant:
4 entomb
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 brainstorm

Sorcery:
3 careful study
4 living wish
4 exhume
4 reanimate
4 show and tell

Creature:
1 Iona
1 Sphinx of the steel wind
1 Elesh
3 Jin

Lands:
4 Misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 underground sea
2 tropical islands
1 Bayou
1 island
1 swamp

SB:
4 Null Rod
3 Reverent Silence
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Blazing Archon
1 terastodon
1 realm razer
1 Emrakul
1 inkwell
1 Tarmogoyf ( not sure about that one )
1 Gilded drake

What do you guys think ?

jjflipped

05-18-2011, 07:46 PM

It was in the Top 8 player profiles (http://manainfinito.com/articulos/perfiles-top8-bom-legacy). I'm curious if he was playing a Welder list.

Just looked at that too. Rough translation:

Finalist
Name: Oliver Salten.
Age: 26.
Place of origin: Bammental, Germany.
Occupation: retail trader.
Baraja: Reanimator.
What letter was the most valuable in your pack? Iona, Shield of Emeria!
And in your sideboard? Red Elemental Blast.
How many hours a week you play Magic? A couple.
Have you seen a letter from New Legacy Phyrexian interesting? What? Yes, Mental misstep is so broken!
Have you played any card in your deck Phyrexian New? No.

So he was playing Iona (not welder), but was not playing and cards from New Phyrexia... so no misstep/jin... very interesting.

Kaslan

05-19-2011, 07:59 AM

link for the reanimator that finished 2ed at BoM

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1512

Tokobotenkai

05-19-2011, 10:14 AM

link for the reanimator that finished 2ed at BoM

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1512

Looks like a heavy control list with S&T. Interesting.

NyxathidHorror

05-19-2011, 02:57 PM

Looks like a heavy control list with S&T. Interesting.

Looks a bit like my list actually. I much prefer MM over Duress/Thoughtseize though.

Clark Kant

05-19-2011, 04:26 PM

Looks a bit like my list actually. I much prefer MM over Duress/Thoughtseize though.

Thoughtseize protects your combo from counters, edicts, snuff out and a host of other stuff. MM only protects you from Swords. I would prefer thoughtseize especially if you play Jin-Gitaxis.

Discard still seems like the better option for combo decks like this one. MM is better for tempo decks and maybe control or aggro decks.

moseby

05-19-2011, 09:46 PM

I also perfer MM over thoughtsieze the because brainstorm can hide their plow, they can sand bag it with a top, or a lucksack top deck.

Now I was thinking of running Hymn for raw card advantage

NyxathidHorror

05-20-2011, 12:11 PM

Thoughtseize protects your combo from counters, edicts, snuff out and a host of other stuff. MM only protects you from Swords. I would prefer thoughtseize especially if you play Jin-Gitaxis.

Discard still seems like the better option for combo decks like this one. MM is better for tempo decks and maybe control or aggro decks.

Between Fow, Daze, MM, and Duress/Thoughtseize I'd say there's more than enough protection. Saying MM only hits swords is pretty narrow minded; there's a very large assortment of targets, including enemy Duress/Thoughtseize.

Clark Kant

05-20-2011, 12:26 PM

alderon666

05-20-2011, 01:45 PM

There's plenty of options for protection, but the number of slots open and allotable to protection is somewhat limited.

Once you do 11(Reanimate Effects)/11(Discard that also draws cards)/10 (Creatures), Brainstorm, FoW, Daze etc, you really only have room left over for either Thoughtseize or Mental Misstep imo.

I guess you have the option to play Thoughtseize as one of your primary discard spells getting rid of Hapless Researcher, and then you would have the room for 2 Mental Misstep. But regardless, Thoughtseize should be in the deck imo. Cutting it for Mental Misstep doesn't seem wise.

The main difference is that MM allows you to play at a faster pace. You can go turn 1 Entomb, turn 2 Exhume fairly confidently. Against Zoo for example, if you have MM in hand. In that scenario Seize would actually be pretty bad, specially if it didn't snatch a Path.

I think MM is a must for Reanimator, even if it is just to combat your opponent's MMs.

moseby

05-20-2011, 02:58 PM

I am wondering if anyone has had positive results with
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur yet?

Kaslan

05-20-2011, 10:02 PM

I am wondering if anyone has had positive results with
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur yet?

Jin is amazing !! specially with MM to protect it.

On the play when I don't know that my opponent is playing Jin is always my number one target.

Mr.Dieth

05-21-2011, 02:14 PM

I am wondering if anyone has had positive results with
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur yet?

Yes! The dude is indeed amazing! I tested against: bant, merfolk, junk and dredge

Bant: cakewalk. played around 15 games. He won only 1! and he even packed maindeck sower ( 2x) and bojuka bog! He doesn't have a fast clock, so you can wait for the point you can have a jin And protect him until you end turn step from sword.. He is very very potent in this match up.

Merfolk:I would say we have a slight edge. Tested 10 games, I won 7. If they have a fast clock they do not have a lot of counters and visa versa, you just have to adapt your playstyle accordingly, that plus that I pack a maindeck blazing archon which is win. a fast Jin get's you there to.

Junk: Cakewalk. slow clock, reall can't do much to disrup you ( thoughsteize being the worst, but we have brainstorm, MMs, force ( and misdirection on side ! :-P ) ) I have yet to loose a game from junk ( 10 games played ) again man of the match is Jin, he is hands down the best creature you can get!

Dredge: They have the edge. You really really need a blazing archon, even a Iona on black doesn't get you there. Hapless researcher is Boss in this matchup though. Cabal therapy's can hit really really hard. And jin is worthless here ! really really worthless. ( 12 games played, won 6 lost 8)

match ups that are standing on my to test list: mud and landstill.

So far I am a really big fanboi of jin ! and the 28th I will take the deck to a local tourny! (( if I get my jin's on time by mail .. ))

jjflipped

05-22-2011, 04:13 PM

For the dredge matchup, You cannot lose with Norn in play... She's the freakin nuts against dredge, goblins, and decent vs merfolk.

Jin is the #1 target 90% of the time.

Clark Kant

05-23-2011, 06:41 AM

It just blows my mind that this one set got three must play staple creatures in reanimator...

1. Jin Gitaxis - Every build must atleast play one copy, probably two, that's how good he is.

2. Elesh Norn - Slaughters dredge, elves, goblins, merfolk, all other tribal decks and really solid against other aggro decks too including zoo.

3. Shelodred - The out this deck so desperately needed vs SnT decks, NO decks, Nought decks and aggro control decks in general.

Justin

05-23-2011, 12:54 PM

wcm8

05-23-2011, 01:04 PM

I would be hesitant to say that any of those are "must haves". The deck that got 2nd in BoM (600+ person tournament) ran NONE of them, nor did he even run Mental Misstep. The field he was pitted against was full of decks that adopted the new cards. If this were a small tournament, you could argue that he just got lucky with his matchups, but it wasn't. I'm sure that this Oliver Salten was onto something: without Mystical Tutor, you can't bank on having access to the creature you want, and so it becomes necessarry to have targets that are good in just about any matchup. Perhaps with Misstep being so dominating, it will be safe to unban Mystical Tutor, but until then I wouldn't want to be too techy with your creature selection.

alderon666

05-23-2011, 01:09 PM

I agree about Jin Gitaxis, but I'm not sure that the other two are "must play." Shelodred can help against the decks that you mentioned, but unless the meta is infested with those kind of decks, he seems better left in the sideboard.

Elesh Norn does not seem too good in Reanimator because there are better cretures that serve the same function. Elesh Norn is good against decks that run small creatures, but why would you run it over Bogardan Hellkite? Hellkite can hit your opponent's board and even kill creatures with toughness greater than two if you need him to. You can aim his ability at the opponent's dome. He wins the game if your opponent as at five life or less. Plus, Hellkite is a 5-powered flyer, as opposed to Elesh Norn, who is a 4-powered non-flyer.

Elesh wipes your opp's board and keeps it clean. Against Elves for example, you'll Reanimate Bogardan Hellkite, kill 5 elves... your opponent is going to shrug and rebuild his army and kill your before your 5/5 kills him.

Elesh, even against Merfolk with 3 lord on the table is decent. It makes their creatures much smaller and can play defensa and offensive (excluding Lord of Atlantis + Island on your side).

Elesh Norn is what I expected Massacre Wurm to be. It stops Dredge cold. They can't even Dredge Return a Troll into play because they can never have 3 creatures in play. It stops Elves cold, they run little to no Lord and altough they do have some removal available it shouldn't be that much of a problem. It's awesome against goblins with Vial in play, if you can keep him from resolving a Warrens Weirding.

RexFTW

05-23-2011, 02:33 PM

Perhaps with Misstep being so dominating, it will be safe to unban Mystical Tutor.

Not a chance. Tutoring Time Spiral and High Tide for a single mana breaks the format in half.

jcsy

05-23-2011, 11:51 PM

Not a chance. Tutoring Time Spiral and High Tide for a single mana breaks the format in half.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21933_Deck_Tech_Reanimator_with_Sam_Stoddard.html

a recent deck tech on JGCA :)

Clark Kant

05-25-2011, 02:36 PM

Here is my take on/tweaked version of the 2nd place Bazaar of Moxen Reanimator list with the red splash. Doing that well out of 633 people is quite an achievement so there might be something to that red splash.

Business (42)

2 Jin Gitaxis
2/1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Elesh Norn
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
0/2 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3/2 Animate Dead

Lands (18)

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic island
1 Badlands
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard (15)

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyroclasm
2 Energy Flux
2 Submerge
1 Perish
1 Shelodred
2 Red Elemental Blast

comeback

05-27-2011, 04:05 AM

Sorry but IMHO there is something that seems to be not consistent:

:1: If you are going to put in place a blue-pretor reanimation plan you shall use MM in order to guarantee a 2nd turn combo plan with a free counter vs StP else it is quite sure that 100% of the time you need to reanimate Iona.

:2: If you are going to reanimate Iona your second target will be for sure something like Blazing Archon or Platinum Emperior or Sphinx and there is no more need of the pretor

About sideboard I know it is the same one used by Oliver and red splash as Submerge are really good ideas but I'm quite afraid about:

:1: no response to opponent's Leyline or
:2: no response to Karakas or Jace TMS

moseby

05-27-2011, 07:57 AM

practical joke

05-27-2011, 12:26 PM

I always like to ensure that I can bounce what I need to, My board will include 2-3 pieces of bounce. I prefer wipe away as it precludes your opponent from responding to it.

Honestly if you are worried about Jace or karakas get inkwell or emperial archangel.

That....those fatties are used for a reason.

I still think that the blue 10mana-man is overrated and mediocre.
elesh norn is a decent target, but not everly awesome.

Because it actually only kills elves better than another target (iona could be to late, but that definately kills elves as well)

Blazing archon wins the fish/iona/early inkwell/sphinx

And goblins have stingscourcher (they should!) and then they just bounce elesh norn, build more goblins and beat the rest of your health down.

Sphinx/akroma/iona are good targets as well.

Clark Kant

05-28-2011, 02:34 PM

Elesh Norn is better than Blazing Archon. Archon is easy to remove, and once they kill it, they can swing in with everything for the win. Elesh Norn wipes their board against most aggro decks (Goblins, Merfolk, Elves) so even if they manage to get rid of it, they are still sitting there with an empty board giving you more than enough time to win.

I'm surprised no one is playing Terastodon. It's one of my favorites, it can deal with any annoying permanents like Ensnaring Bridge, Humility or Karakas, or you can simply sac three lands to get yourself 18 points worth of power on the board, which usually wins the game the next turn.

Hopo

05-29-2011, 03:24 AM

I'm surprised no one is playing Terastodon. It's one of my favorites, it can deal with any annoying permanents like Ensnaring Bridge, Humility or Karakas,

You need to clear some things up to yourself regarding the rules of the game, since Terastodon can't destroy Humility.

Clark Kant

05-29-2011, 04:34 AM

Thats not the point, the point is that it's extremely flexible.

You can even use it to mana screw your opponent by blowing their land, useful vs high tide and control decks.

lordofthepit

05-29-2011, 06:07 AM

Thats not the point, the point is that it's extremely flexible.

Is it that hard to say "my bad"?

Davetradint

05-29-2011, 10:23 AM

A playtest friend and me have been thinking of playing something like this:

4 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Entomb
3 Careful Study

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Personal Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Turbulent Dreams

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Darkslick Shores

The main idea is that we need a critter that seals the game quickly and efficiently. Iona is failing to do so (my area has plenty zoo players with GSZ, Knights of R and Karakas). With the loss of M.Tutor I think we need to be fast and sometimes you cannot choose what you want with careful studies, so we tried to pack only 4 Sphinx and 3 Inkwell Leviathans. I adapted the list after that. The sinergy between Sphinx and M.Misstep is great, it protects her from the most dangerous removal: paths and swords, and the lifeloss can be quickly ignored with the lifelink ability.

Some card choices:
3x Careful and not 4: With only 4 critters, you won't discard them too often and they generate card disadvantage.
4x Thoughtseize: Get rid of a PTE or STP if you don't have a MM, then get online your Sphinx for a happy ending.

We still are testing Preordain over Ponder and must try Dazes again. Also T.Dreams may be cut.

The deck is capable of getting a Sphinx online as soon as turn 2, but in order to protect her, you need that MM or Thoughtseize. We're working to improve the deck just evolving from this point and the same basic idea.

Comments or thoughts?

jcsy

05-29-2011, 03:16 PM

how about things that Iona randomly stops, storms and combos

Davetradint

05-29-2011, 05:38 PM

how about things that Iona randomly stops, storms and combos

You don't want to randomly stop a combo, you want to resiliently win. With Sphinx online, Storm must go off within 2 turns or less. Unanswered, she just need 3 turns to GG and every turn (yours) she will force opp to create a +3 storm account than a turn before. Certainly, Iona could stop Show&tell combos, Spiral tides and screw Painters, but that's why we are still testing this. I just shared it with you and everyone willing to have a try is really welcome, as well as your questions and comments.

My question is: is this path a good choice?

moseby

05-30-2011, 12:11 PM

Not enough targets. With this list you may want to run 4 personal tutor.

Based on what I ran into this past weekend at a local tournament. I would run the following dudes

3 Sphinx of the steelwind
1 Iona
1 Blazing archon - Dudes stops everybody.
1 inkwell
1 emperial archangel
1 more dude

I hated Jin Gitaxis, his body is way too small, and simply didnt get things done when I needed him to. I also had Elesh Norn, Plantinum Emperion, and 1 more Iona in the board, Maybe I could move Elesh to the main.

Terastadon, sometimes he is good, some times he is bad, some times he is a terrible target. There are very few times I see him and think he is the best target I could have.

I would also strongly consider sundering titan again, as lots of decks are running atleast 3 colours, and I have noticed a significant decrease in the number of stifles out there,possibly due to the prevalence of mental misstep

Sturtzilla

05-30-2011, 05:53 PM

3 Sphinx of the steelwind
1 Iona
1 Blazing archon - Dudes stops everybody.
1 inkwell
1 emperial archangel
1 more dude

It has been my experience that running 8 dudes can be too many. I prefer to run 7. But I guess that might be a matter of just player preference. I have been running the following 7:

3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Yes, I am a JGCA user but you could fold some of those into your sphinx count. Honestly, JGCA really helps many of our poor matches. If you can keep him alive until the end of turn you are set because you should be drawing counter magic and binning more dudes for reanimation. He has worked for me wonderfully. I will say he doesn't single handedly close the game like some of our other threats, but he is a more universal target and thereby gives the deck more consistency. Not many decks can withstand an end of turn two or three discard down to zero. I used to run both Blazing Archon and Empryial Archangel but have found them to both be underwhelming in many matches. I know many people are not sold but Elesh Norn really fills both of these slots. She can keep dudes from attacking you by nuking small dudes and she also makes the ones that don't die easy to pick off while both attacking and defending. I am not sure what further creature I would add as the "1 more dude."

I hated Jin Gitaxis, his body is way too small, and simply didnt get things done when I needed him to. I also had Elesh Norn, Plantinum Emperion, and 1 more Iona in the board, Maybe I could move Elesh to the main.
I can't argue that you get a small body with JGCA. He works out pretty well with Elesh (try main boarding her) in play though. His effect is nuts. You get 7 cards a turn and thereby are going to be able to bin more guys to reanimate. I don't know what to say because I am running it and loving it in nearly every MU.

I would also strongly consider sundering titan again, as lots of decks are running atleast 3 colours, and I have noticed a significant decrease in the number of stifles out there,possibly due to the prevalence of mental misstep
This is a pretty solid idea. I think I would have to agree that many people have removed stifles from decks and he could be a great target these days.

Alsan

05-30-2011, 09:37 PM

Hello, I've been reading this thread from long ago, and finally I've become a member to discuss. I've been playing reanimator since the banning of Mystical tutor (with very good results), and yesterday I won an 29 people (exams, you know ¬¬) tournament here at my city, and I wanna share experiences with you people.

Here the report (http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4826) (in spanish).

And here the Decklist (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6202) (and top8).

Comments? :D

Sturtzilla

05-31-2011, 12:11 AM

Alsan

05-31-2011, 03:54 AM

@ Alsan

Your list is nearly identical to mine. The notable difference being that I run Thoughtseize over Hapless Researcher. I have Hapless Researchers and have been considering testing them; however, I have not gotten around to it yet. What is your take on this? Why do you prefer Hapless Researcher?

Easy:

1- It's blue.
2- Blocks the first dude of zoo AND lackey.
3- Vs Landstill nullifies the standstill (in minor ways) and hits 2-3 times (the ones that Sphinx does not 6+6+6+2)
4- Digs into your deck as careful 5-7 (we have no preordain nor ponder)
5- Takes removal (Innocent blood, diabolic edict, warren weirding...)
6- Have a Wild Nacatl with Elesh norn is cool xD.
7- It helps dodging sb in the Exhume plays in G2 and G3 (tormod's or relic on battlefield, creature on graveyard, put an Exhume on stack, the opponent removes your graveyard, ok, the old mand sacrifices himself happily to put anothe dude on the graveyard, the Exhume resolves.)
8- Mental misstep > Tseize, in G2 Dispel is better too.
9- I don't wanna play tapped. An untapped Usea is Daze+Entomb+Mental, if tapped, it's only a counterwall, but not a menace.
10- I've one of them foil japanese xD.

Garobidou

05-31-2011, 04:49 AM

First, I'm happy to see you post here as you've been having great results with different reanimator lists.

About Hapless I would add "11- Very good against dredge".

I would have 2 questions for you :

1) You're running a 11 discards / 9 reanimate / 12 creature shell (I count Entomb as a creature). Theoretically, with 32 slots for the combo, a 11 / 10 / 11 shell would be more optimal. I see Toni ran a 10 / 10 / 12, cutting 1 Hapless. Did you try all these combinations and feel the 11/9/12 was the most appropriate?

2) Hasn't been Show and tell difficult to cast with 16 lands?

Thanks

Alsan

05-31-2011, 09:08 AM

Thank you :D

I agree with the eleventh term, is very very good against dredge. Now, answers:

1- I've been testing the 11/10/11 combination, but was 4 entomb 4 fatties 3 Jin, and had games where I couldn't find the Jin-gitaxias with careful or hapless, so I returned to the 11/9/12. Besides, I prefer having more ways to put the creature in the graveyard than to reanimate it, because a hand with 2-3 reanimation spells and none creatures or discards, is worse than one with 2-3 discards and none reanimation, 'cause the discards dig the deck to find the reanimate.

2- Yes. I didn't cast S&T in whole tournament, it is a slot that I'm still testing. It's only against Leylines of the void or Zoo, to avoid Faerie Macabre, but I don't think is the best way.

We're testing 2 changes (now that I have them foil xD): -1 Daze MD +1 Misdirection, -1 EE Sb +1 Misdirection. It is very good against Hymn to tourach and Inquisition of kozilek, it is the fifth Fow, the fifth Misstep against Swords, and sometimes redirects reanimate (as the exhume play I told before, but with many more cards and targets).

Davetradint

05-31-2011, 09:09 AM

First of all, congrats again, Alsan!

I wasn't sold to Jin-Gitaxias at first glance, but now I see it clearly. It's the same idea/purpose I was aiming at: an almost-automatic choice to seal games, plus you only need to protect it for half a turn. Then fill your hand with protection and empty opp's. Your list is the (perfect) development of that simple idea. Far better from what my teammates and me were thinking about.

Did you miss any MD bouncer or utility?

Alsan

05-31-2011, 09:28 AM

Thanks again! (I'm in the break to lunch, so I can answer quickly, haha)

I dind't miss neither a bouncer or utility MD, 'cause only Leyline of void avoids the counterwall, no one plays Tormod's maindeck and Jin-Gitaxias solves many problems. Maybe Terastodon has to be maindeck to fight a turn 1 Karakas, but Iona is really good against monocolored decks, Sphinx wins all zoo/goblins/elves/random aggro games, Archon stops merfolks/emrakul/Ichorid/stoneforge decks, and inkwell races emrakul and blasts countertop decks, although is the less important.

Do you think we could cut Inkwell MD to Terastodon, and win Emrakul with Blazing archon, 2-3 fatties +3 elephants at time and only one alpha-strike?

Garobidou

05-31-2011, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the answers.

About the creatures, I would another Sphinx before the Terastodon. Sphinx is pretty overwhelming in the current metagame :
- As you stated it is good against zoo, goblins, elves, random aggro
- It's also good against Team America / BUG control (it's go for the throat-proof as you mentionned it in your report)
- It is karakas-proof
- Not that bad against dredge / TES-Empty the warrens

I would run a 4 Jin, 2-3 Sphinx, 1 Archon, 0-1 Iona MD with Terastodon, Iona (1-2), Archon and maybe 1 more Sphinx SB. I do like the idea of reducing variance towards creatures.

Alsan

05-31-2011, 10:46 AM

Could you put a decklist of how would you play the deck? I promise to test everything :D (and like the reducing variance of creatures, that's because 4x Jin).

(Anyway, love the throat-proof, haha, we play T2 a lot and always ask if the creature we're gonna kill has throat or not before GftT it)

Garobidou

05-31-2011, 11:06 AM

My latest list is close to yours with the following changes :
- 1 Daze
- 1 Creature
+1 Land
+ 1 Animate dead

I'm running a 3 Iona, 3 Sphinx, 1 Archon creature package. I wasn't sold on Jin, however with all the hype around it I will try it.

The additional land serves my SB plan, as I usually side in 3 Show and Tell + 3 Thoughtseize / Duress for 3 Hapless + 2 Animate dead + 1 Exhume (keeping that way a 11/11/11 Discard/Reanimate/creature).
I do like Show and tell as it dodges graveyard hate. Plus, as entomb it's 2 pieces of the combo in 1 card.
However it might be way less powerful with Jin as a Jin on turn 3 or 4 seems not that good.

Also, if you want to test many things :
- even if Hapless is great, a UBr shell running Firestorm as discard outlet #9-11 might be worth the investment of a third color : have you already tried it?
- White splash was for Enlightened tutor?

Alsan

05-31-2011, 11:23 AM

Yes, we've tried the Firestorm reanimator (I gived the list to a friend of mine in a tournament I couln't go and he made top1-2 split: Firestorm Reanimator (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5645&iddeck=40839)).

I'll try the white splash soon :D.

Sturtzilla

05-31-2011, 11:42 AM

@ Alsan and Garobidou

I have been considering testing the Researchers for quite some time now. I guess it is finally time to do that. Thanks for all of the rationale as to why he is a better option. I totally agree that Sphinx is pretty great right now also. As for reducing creature variance, doing so will improve the consistency of the deck while reducing our flexibility. Now with Jin-Gitaxias, we may not need loads of options as long as we can get secondary targets onto the board. I would think that a configuration like:

3-4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

would be ideal. Personally I prefer Elesh Norn to Blazing Archon at the moment. Then additional tweaks could be boarded like you both have suggested such as another Iona.

Knoll

05-31-2011, 12:04 PM

@ aslan:
nice to have ya here man since you are one of the few ppls that kept up placing good results with reanimator after the ban :)
Can I ask ya what's your SB plan usually (expecially in g2 when you don't really know what your opponent could side in)?
do you try to predict the oppenent side-in and then act by consequence?

Garobidou

05-31-2011, 12:31 PM

@ Alsan :
- I did try white splash before New Phyrexia and I found it slower than UB. As mental misstep eats E.tutor it might not be a good choice but I'm looking forward to having your feedback
- Thanks for the Red splash list. I've seen you were used to running Tutors list (Personal ou LDV) : what's your feeling with your new list compared to these one? Personaly I never liked the Personal tutor nor LDV (but I might be biaised as I loved my altered mystical tutors :p)

@Sturtzilla :
I would suggest you to try a bit more Blazing Archon instead of Elesh Norn. Blazing archon is as good as Elesh Norn in the matchs up where Elesh Norn is gamebreaking (elves, dredge) and far worse in many other important matchs up such as :
- Merfolk : with 2 lords out Elesh Norn is useless whereas Archon is always great
- Sneak and Show : Proge and Emrakul won't attack (especially Emrakul since Proge can be dealt with Sphinx)
- Bant : Elesh Norn does not stop knight of the reliquary. In addition, Elesh Norn is Legendary so it is dealt with Karakas

Ok Archon is worse in the goblin match up but it is pointless : in the goblin match up Sphinx is the #1 target by a large margin. If you run a creature as a 1-of it must be gamebreaking/great in the matchs up where you would have no or not a good answer otherwise and more or less average elsewhere. Elesh Norn does not fulfill the first part.

Alsan

05-31-2011, 04:34 PM

@ alsan:
nice to have ya here man since you are one of the few ppls that kept up placing good results with reanimator after the ban :)
Can I ask ya what's your SB plan usually (expecially in g2 when you don't really know what your opponent could side in)?
do you try to predict the oppenent side-in and then act by consequence?

Thank you again :D. I'm glad to be here ^^.

Yes, my Sb plan usually goes through predict what opp would use as SB. IMO:

Goblins, Merfolks, Probant, UW Landstill, Burn, Enchantress: Relic of progenitus
Zoo, Maverick, Canadian, Reanimator, Aggrobant : Tormod's or Faerie macabre
Jace Control, Team america, : Extirpate
Ichorid, monoblack: Leyline of void

So I usually side in 2 pithing + 2 null rod, 2 pithing + 2 EE, 2 EE + 2 Echoing truth and 2 Echoing + 2 Show and tell (in order of pairings told before). In G3, if I start, usually return the Dazes to Maindeck, trying to be the most explosive I can. And works. Ah, and if I have pithing and he does not have graveyard hate on table in 2 turns, I name faerie macabre ignoring the previous table and try to reanimate as quick as I can.

@Garobidou: I loved the Personal tutors, but they were really bad xD (I had the mystical foil and used them to win with nauseam few tournaments, so I was dissapointed to leave them alone in the box), and Limduls were too slow. I prefer the new reanimator because it has less card disadvantage (only careful study and Hapless, and the old man has 11 good points, as we said few posts ago). The red splash was very powerful, Firestorm is a warehouse, has so many uses and it's very versatile, but we thought it was unnecesary. And it was unnecesary! I want to test more against UB Merfolks, because I think it should be the worst pairing we could have (ignore games with turn 2 blazing archon, please) without Firestorm and Pyroblast. I had multiple Ideas for Sb, like Sickening dreams or Darkblast, but they need to be tutored.. so I discarded it by now.

@Sturtzilla: I agree 100% with garobidou. Archon > Elesh norn, but I still love Archon WITH Elesh norn, so I play both.

Sturtzilla

05-31-2011, 05:19 PM

Cool! I have run both individually, but not in the same list together. I think they essentially fulfill the same role although each can be better or worse depending on the situation at hand. I guess I could try running both in the same list. That could be pretty nasty. Anyway thanks for the input and the side-boarding ideas as well.

nyoro

06-01-2011, 12:36 AM

Elesh norn is not necessary better than blazing archon. What happen if you face against show n tell? Blazing archon will stop emrakul or progenitus from swinging while you look for a 2nd reanimating target aka inkwell to go through emrakul. If you play elesh norn in this case, you will still die to emrakul swing and scoop.

Knoll

06-01-2011, 04:43 AM

Well that's why you play elesh in the SB since he shines at 100% against only certain matchups like merfolks/gobs/speedzoo/infect & maverick(cuts their mana and shoots mothers & other annoying critters).

I usually side him in also against landstill & cawblade switching him for sphinx (packed with 2 echoing truth & 2 needles) since he is one more solution to peacekeeper and basically kills all their sources of damage.

Clark Kant

06-01-2011, 11:17 AM

The problem with Blazing Archon is that your opponent can simply kill him their next turn and then swing in with everything for the win.

Elesh Norn serves the same role Archon did against weenie decks of all sorts much better. The second he hits the board, your opponent loses all their creatures, regardless of whether your opponent has a way to kill it or not. The fact that it also pumps up your Gin-Jitaxis and other creatures is just icing.

Shelodred the Whispering One serves the same role Archon did against aggro control decks and decks like Show and Tell and NO Progenitus better. The fact that reanimates you another creature as well the next turn is just icing.

I still love Blazing Archon since it does the work of both creatures but worse. Ultimately, Shelodred maybe too narrow to warrant a slot, but Elesh Norn absolutely is worth maindecking, probably alongside either Archon or Shelodred in the board.

Garobidou

06-01-2011, 01:15 PM

@Clark Kant : I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you on several points.

Elesh Norn
- If your main concern is cleaning the board you should run Thunder Dragon
- If you're in a situation where your opponent board is full (you're under an alpha strike next turn), he has some removal, you have no counters then yes, it would be legit to lose this one (especially since we should be at least turn 4)
- Against weenies, if you're not in such a situation, I will reanimate Sphinx before Archon (even more since Mental Misstep release)
- Against Sneak Show, Elesh Norn does absolutely nothing. If you don't MD Blazing Archon your whole deck does nothing. It is especially dangerous since your opponent can get an Emrakul by turn 2, reducing Jin-Gitaxias relative efficiency.
- Elesh Norn body is too small (not pointless because creatures can attack). The KotR example remains.
- Elesh Norn has no evasion. A reanimator target has to have some sort of evasion (Jin is the exception but Elesh Norn can't be compared to Jin as it does not serve at all the same purpose)
- If you already have Jin on the board you should not fear removal (then in that case your first point about Archonis pointless). Moreover, if you're opponent's board is far from clean, you could be with Elesh in a situation where you have reanimated twice but you have no way to kill your opponent (no evasion, small body). That would be a shame.

Shelodred
- It does not do anything against Sneak Attack : this is not an answer to Sneak Show

@Knoll :
Your points about Mother of rune and Peacekeeper are valid.
However :
- against merfolk/infect Archon is far better (no removal, maybe just a Sower for Merfolk)
- against goblins / zoo Sphinx is the right call

Karhumies

06-02-2011, 07:32 PM

What is your educated opinion on Entomb/sac H.Researcher -> Shallow Grave (Jin-Gitaxias) in the opponent's end step?

Cost: 1BB mana with Entomb. Dark Ritual potential?
Result sequence: 1) Opponent discards down to 0 in clean-up, 2) Jin hits for 5 in combat, 3) Draw 7 at beginning of your end step, 4) Jin goes to exile
Bad stuff: Jin goes to exile; "1 hit wonder"

Added bonus #1: Also works with Emrakul, although then you would rather combo in your own main phase 1
Added bonus #2: I have once won vs Zoo by Shallow Graving a Terastodon in the opponent's combat step before declare blockers

Here's my current deck list (very little testing done so far):

Main Deck 60
Target creatures 7 (+4 Entomb)

3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
1 Terastodon
1 Blazing Archon

Discard 11

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher

Animation 11

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Shallow Grave

Protection 10

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze

Filter 4

4 Brainstorm

Mana 18

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Dark Ritual

Sideboard 15
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Show and Tell
1 Turbulent Dreams
2 Echoing Truth

Alsan

06-02-2011, 08:53 PM

IMO, Shallow grave is really better in decks like Ooze Reanimator, where you do not care how much time the creature stays in battlefield, but here you want to have Jin all time winning. But if you want to play with this build, you should add Goryo's vengeance maindeck and made the deck more Emrakul dependant.

@Clark Kant: I'm with Garobidou, I prefer Archon > Elesh norn because he stops Emrakul, and she doesn't. But I'll argue you that the archon is easily killed. How? Now with Mental misstep it's really hard to kill any creature with R4+, because only Swords and Go for the throat kills them. And we have answer for one...

And the disadvantatge of being Legendary is the very first point of choosing archon > Elesh norn.

---

Well, I've been testing Misdirection. Is BROKEN. Redirecting a Hymn to tourach or being able of hitting removal with emperion on table (we are not allowed of playing Fow) to save him, is terribly good. The testing has been against Team America, so when I have more info, I'll tell.

Equinozio

06-03-2011, 02:38 AM

@alsan:

After my 0-2 tournament I came home and add 2 misdirections and 3 duress main deck. I think I cutted daze, one jin and some card more to add a land.

Karhumies

06-03-2011, 05:16 AM

@ Alsan: Currently, I am running Shallow Grave only as a side-plot to the standard Reanimator package of 4 Reanimate + 4 Exhume. In essence, I am testing Shallow Grave as a 3-of replacement for Animate Dead. Shallow Grave is not good enough to be run as a full set, despite the fact that it doesn't target -> hits through Extirpate just like Exhume (unlike Goryo's Vengeance). Furthermore, Goryo's Vengeance does not hit Terastodon. 18 "haste" damage by EOT Shallow Grave Terastodon can steal a game if opponent has fetched twice, not to mention making a devastating declare blockers step wall.

Currently, I am thinking to make the deck LESS reliant on Emrakul (contrary to your proposal) by moving him into SB, where he compliments the SB 4x SnT package. The thing is, the deck has no space or access to reasonable creature/instant tutors (LDV) and if I start adding them, I should be playing Ooze MD instead.

Karhumies

06-03-2011, 05:29 AM

Also, about Enlightened Tutor: E.Tutor + H.Researcher = "Entomb" for UW with additional card disadvantage and a possible chump. But if you have an Entomb in your hand, having a E.Tutor to "compliment" it is just redundant. It could be a Daze or generic blue card (cantrip).

E.Tutor does not pull its weight because
-outside of "Entombing" artifact creatures, it does not pull its weight G1 (should be a blue disruption spell most of the time) because we lack castable utility artifacts
-it's bad at tutoring SB cards, because we need P.Needle for Karakas (when you could just run extra copies instead of E.Tutor) and a bounce/destruction spell/SnT against Leyline of the Void (which E.Tutor does nothing about).

Garobidou

06-03-2011, 06:08 AM

E. Tutor :

Pros :
- With a Zombie Infestation + Animate Dead toolbox (+ some usefull artifact creatures such as Sphinx, Inkwell, Emperion) you're able to tutor any combo piece. This adds a lot to you consistency, having a card (E. Tutor) counting as A Creature, a Discard outlet and a reanimate effect.
- You can hit your hate more easily post side (Null Rod, Needle)
- Side note : you would not run Hapless anymore in a E. Tutor build, as you already have 13 Discard outlets (E. Tutor, Careful Study, Entomb, Zombie infestation)

Cons :
- It's white so you have to go 3 colors. However, with our ability to need very fews lands and people running less and less stifle, it might not be that a problem
- Misstep eats it
- Both tutorable discard and reanimate outlet are 2 cc. In my testing, that was the major problem, slowing us too much

Alsan

06-03-2011, 06:42 AM

@alsan:

After my 0-2 tournament I came home and add 2 misdirections and 3 duress main deck. I think I cutted daze, one jin and some card more to add a land.

I wouldn't cut dazes maindeck, they are very strong to reanimate in early game (wich is the plan). I only cut 1 MD and made the second slot in Sb, to reinforce pairs like TA.

@Karhumies: if you wanna make your deck less reliant to emrakul, cut them. They doesn't fit with the original plan of the deck, and if they has karakas, and you won the 1rst game with Jin or Iona, the Show + Emrakul plan wouldn't work, they will be prepared. Destroying your entire board EOT in turn 3 to hit of 18 (remembering that if he plays control, this would not happen, and if plays aggro, he has a blocker) doesn't look good.

Garobidou, could you show us your list of White Reanimator? I have curiosity :).

Garobidou

06-03-2011, 08:44 AM

Sure, I have tested a MD like this :
- 13 Creatures
- 13 Discards (14 with Thoughtseize)
- 12 Reanimates

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Entomb
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Careful Study
1 Zombie Infestation
4 Reanimate
3 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
1 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

If I was to try it again with Jin, I would cut the Ionas + Leviathan for 3 Jin.

Mr.Dieth

06-03-2011, 10:00 AM

If we are talking about splashing white.

What about: Solitary confinement ?

-It serves as a discard outlet.
-Pure awesomeness against merfolk, goblins and so on..
-It also protects or graveyard ( we cannot be targeted )
-Sort of nice against storm combo ( no tendrills, and etw isn't scary against us )
-very nice combo with jin-gitaxias !

I haven't tested it yet, but I think it could be nice, what do you guys think?

Clark Kant

06-03-2011, 01:23 PM

Sure, I have tested a MD like this :
- 13 Creatures
- 13 Discards (14 with Thoughtseize)
- 12 Reanimates

Playing 13-14 Reanimates sounds a lot sexier. The Reanimate is what your opponent usually counters anyways, not the discard effect. Many games, you will lose with a big creature in your yard but no reanimate effect since your first one got countered or the creature you brought with it sacrificed.

When they make you sac a creature, it helps you to have another reanimate effect in hand, so you should really max out the reanimate effects over both discard and creatures. They can't stop you from discarding creatures in response with Zombie Infestation before they destroy it, but they can destroy an Animate Dead.

As such, I would cut the random one of Thoughtseize (or possibly a Mental Misstep or Daze) to make room for the 4th Exhume. I might cut a second one as well to play a 2nd Animate Dead in case the first one gets destroyed.

Clark Kant

06-04-2011, 12:12 PM

Along the lines of my previous post, what do you guys think of this list...

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Entomb
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Careful Study
1 Zombie Infestation
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

You are essentially playing...

13 Creatures
13 Discard
13 Reanimates

so you will pretty much always have what you need to combo off, and usually can combo off twice, even if the first reanimate effect gets countered.

Update: On testing, I don't think the white splash is worth it.

Enlightened Tutor and the cards that it tutors up slow down the deck too much. Mystical Tutor is a one of a kind card and there are no easy replacements.

Hopefully, now that they printed Mental Misstep to hurt combo, Wizards will come to their senses and unban Mystical Tutor in 16 days.

Maybe we should all email them... :eyebrow:

aaron.forsythe@wizards.com,
mark.rosewater@wizards.com

Garobidou

06-04-2011, 12:47 PM

Playing 13-14 Reanimates sounds a lot sexier. The Reanimate is what your opponent usually counters anyways, not the discard effect. Many games, you will lose with a big creature in your yard but no reanimate effect since your first one got countered or the creature you brought with it sacrificed.

When they make you sac a creature, it helps you to have another reanimate effect in hand, so you should really max out the reanimate effects over both discard and creatures. They can't stop you from discarding creatures in response with Zombie Infestation before they destroy it, but they can destroy an Animate Dead.

As such, I would cut the random one of Thoughtseize (or possibly a Mental Misstep or Daze) to make room for the 4th Exhume. I might cut a second one as well to play a 2nd Animate Dead in case the first one gets destroyed.

Some thoughts on your changes :

- Bad players will counter your reanimate effects. Reanimate effects are "vanilla" part of the combo piece whereas our discards (except Zombie infestation) say "Discard + Draw 1 or 2" or are 2 parts ("Discard" + "Creature") of the combo. Moreover, as Aslan stated, discard alone is never a dead card, contrary to Reanimate effects. Maths could advocate for a X/X/X Creatures/Discards/Reanimates, so that you optimize your chances of getting the combo (cf. my previous question to Aslan about his 12/11/9 setup) but a X/X/X+1 setup doesn't seem to be the right move

- You should never run less than 4 Mental Misstep. The main threats we're facing are : Missteps on our Discard/Tutors/Entomb/Reanimate... and removal, especially those who remove from the game creatures. Mental misstep deals with both of them while being free. I think I would even cut Fow before mental misstep.

- The Thoughtseize is not "random". It is our 13th permission spell (there's no reason not to increase both your combo pieces and permission spells). Moreover, as I said earlier this build is slower than straight UB Reanimator : if you tutor Zombie infestation or Animate dead of turn 1 you won't be able to have the creature on table before turn 3. That means you'll have mana and tempo available to cast discard spells

Alsan

06-04-2011, 03:54 PM

Sharpened

06-04-2011, 06:36 PM

Awesome :O... I'm gonna test your decklist this week Garobidou, and I'll try to play it Thursday evening. What do you think of cutting 2-3 lands to add chrome mox, to play Zombie infestation turn 1, adding 2 more infestations? The enchantment works GREAT with Jin-gitaxias, allowing us to discard and make zombies every turn, giving blockers and attackers.

Is white worthless because it doesn't give any other threat?

Adding Zombie infestations becuase they work well with Jin in play is silly. Once Jin is in play, you pretty much just win, either with him alone or be reanimating another creature.

Clark Kant

06-04-2011, 10:15 PM

Meh. On testing, I don't think the white splash is worth it.

Enlightened Tutor and the cards that it tutors up slow down the deck too much. Mystical Tutor is a one of a kind card and there are no easy replacements.

Hopefully, now that they printed Mental Misstep to hurt combo, Wizards will come to their senses and unban Mystical Tutor in 16 days.

Maybe we should all email them... :eyebrow:

aaron.forsythe@wizards.com,
mark.rosewater@wizards.com

Alsan

06-05-2011, 08:51 AM

Haha, I know, I know, but that's not true 100%. When you reanimate Jin, if you are playing against aggro, if it's not turn 2, you are mostly dead. In this build, with Zombies blocking hand to hand with Jin, it's easier to survive. And without fattie, zombies gives you time and blockers.

I wanna play all builds of reanimator for fun, but in a big tournament I'll still play my UB build or the UBr firestorm build.

@Clark: maybe we should make a Facebook group "Mystical tutor back NOW!". It wouldn't work, but...

rnightingale

06-06-2011, 04:28 AM

Reanimator @ 2nd spot in SCG Open Indianapolis

Maindeck:

Artifact Creatures
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Creatures
1 Blazing Archon
3 Putrid Imp
1 Stormtide Leviathan

Enchantments
3 Animate Dead

Instants
2 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep

Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

Basic Lands
3 Island
4 Swamp

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Putrid Imp
1 Terastodon
2 Brainstorm
1 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Alsan

06-06-2011, 08:26 AM

Instants
2 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep

Instants
2 Brainstorm...

2 Brainstorm...

2 Brainstorm...

Really? I wanted to ask why Putrid Imp > Hapless researcher, but... but...!

Now seriously, in the coverage of finals both gone to mull5, and the reanimator player stuck on 1 island. We've tried to cut most of basic lands, but he plays 7. Before that, I'll try Darkslick shores. Do you guys usually fetch to basic lands while playing this deck?

EDIT: I'm glad with results, but No Rug? It's an easy pair, and with 4 pithing needle naming Jace...

Garobidou

06-06-2011, 10:01 AM

@ Recent SCG Open List

Yeah 2 brainstorms is very surprising. One could argue, as Caleb did for Madness, that you'd prefer directly having business than spells allowing you to find business (namely draw spells). However I would personnally never go under 4 brainstorms in Reanimator.

Concerning Putrid Imp his only advantage over Hapless is about the reusability of the discard, in particular when you have 2 creatures in hand and Exhume it's easier to fight graveyard hate (Discard with Imp => Exhume => Hate => Discard with Imp where Hapless would have allowed you to discard only 1 creature, the first one).

@White splash

1) Chrome Mox
My initial thought would have been Petal Lotus as :
- it is less ressource consuming
- you don't need a permanent mana source : Mox and Petals would allow you to be 1 turn faster by having 3 mana on turn 2 and be able to cast the 2cc tutored card (tutored on turn 1) + a 1cc other part of the combo. I mean if both your discard and Reanimate are 2cc you'll have to wait T3, such as you would have done without Petals.

However I'd be interested by having your feedback on Mox if you tried it :)

2) Zombie Infestation
I like this idea as it still makes Jin a good target after Turn 2. However this has to be looked in regards to the speed you're losing in other cases (I mean when you would have been able to go off by turn 2 with a 1cc discard outlet).
However my main concern is that we would have to cut Hapless Researcher. After my recent testing (same list as yours -1 creature +1 Animate Dead) I'd be more likely to go to 4 Hapless than to cut one or all of them. But as for the Mox, I'd be glad to have your feedback if you tried such a setup :)

3) As you do Alsan, I think the most competitive list is UB by quite a large margin

rnightingale

06-07-2011, 12:00 AM

It's kinda weird because.. there are two Brainstorms and 4th copy of Putrid Imp in Sideboard. @_@

Clark Kant

06-07-2011, 08:28 PM

Sturtzilla

06-07-2011, 09:47 PM

Here's my newest list...

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Hapless Researcher
4 Entomb
2 Jin-Gitaxis
2 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx
1 Terastodan
1 Inkwell
4 FoW
3 Daze

12 creatures
12 discard
12 reanimate

Super consistent. Any opinions?

Where are your Mental Missteps? MM has really been shining for me in just about every match up that I have been testing against. Otherwise I like the build. Maybe going to an 11/11/11 with 3 MM in the deck as well. What do others think about that? I have been running the build below and it has been working pretty well for me. I went back to Blazing Archon over Elesh Norn after losing to NO Elves a good bit the other night. Games 2-3 would be different as Archon is designed to win that match up. I am still working on how to work in Elesh into the main. I really like having more aggro shutdown power. However, I really don't want to lose my permission package. Oh by the way I picked up Beta Animate Deads the other day, I am pretty stoked about that. Thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Swamp
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher
4 Entomb
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

11 Creatures
11 Discard
11 Protection/Counter Magic
10 Reanimate

vikram

06-08-2011, 12:05 AM

Looks solid, though I really don't think Mental Misstep is all that necessary.

Garobidou

06-08-2011, 05:55 AM

@ Clark Kant
Your list looks like the pre-NPH list I was running so I can't say this is bad. However if you run no Mental misstep (and just 7 permission spells) I would cut the 2 Jin for 2 Ionas (or 1 Iona 1 Sphinx). Jin isn't that great by turn 3+ and you shouldn't be able to reliably reanimate it by turn 2-3 with such a list :
- you have a bigger variance on the reanimated creature with only 2 Jin
- trading free counters for additional combo pieces increases your consistency but reduces your speed

@Sturtzilla
I'm running the same list as yours with -1 Land +1 Daze (-1 Leviathan -1 Iona + 1 Sphinx + 1 Jin).
Also I would suggest you to switch Swamp #2-3 and Island #2 for additional fetchs.

Alsan

06-08-2011, 06:07 AM

Quick reply 'cause I'm at work, but +1 to all said by Garobidou (mostly the variance, it makes you Entomb dependant). (I'll keep playing the #2 island and swamp because I don't have the 4th USea Fbb, but i't my concern).

alderon666

06-08-2011, 08:10 AM

How do you like running that much basics? I've run into several scenarios where a god hand becomes unkeepable because all I have is an Island in hand.

Garobidou

06-08-2011, 12:43 PM

I agree with you (but I can understand someone not running the 4th Underground because it's a White Border one :D).

Let's list the problems we can face due to a large amount of basics and let's do the maths. As we are a combo deck I'll just go through initial hand issues.
I can see 2 types of problems :
- All the combo pieces in hand but only black mana and a blue discard outlet (sidenote : this is Putrid imp advantage #2 over Hapless, being on the same color as the reanimate effects)
- All the combo pieces in hand in the form of Entomb + Reanimate effect but only blue mana

So this gives 4 cases :
(1+ means at least 1)

- Case #1 : On the play, 1+ Blue discard outlet, 1+ Creature, 1+ Reanimate/Exhume/Animate dead, no entomb, 1+ Swamp and no other land of other type
- Case #2 : On the draw, 1+ Creature, 1+ Reanimate, no blue discard outlet, 1+ Island and no other land of other type
- Case #3 : On the play/draw, 1+ Entomb, 1+ Reanimate, 1+ Island and no other land of other type
- Case #4 : On the play/draw, 1+ Entomb, 1+ Exhume/Animate dead, 2+ Island and no other land of other type

I used my list for the maths : 4 entomb, 7 creatures, 10 Reanimate effects (2 Animate dead), 7 Blue discard outlets, 12 counters, 4 brainstorms and 16 Lands.

The "absolute" numbers are the raw probabilities. The "relative" numbers are the absolute one compared the averall 36,19% of having the combo in your opening 7 (so raw numbers divided by 36,19%). This represents the % of "god hands" you make unkeepable by running basics.

So the probability of falling in one of the cases stated above are :

1. 16 Lands list 1 island, 1 swamp
- On the play : 0,72% absolute / 1,99% relative
- On the draw : 0,49% absolute / 1,36% relative

2. 16 Lands list 2 island, 1 swamp
- On the play : 1,14% absolute / 3,15% relative
- On the draw : 1,03% absolute / 2,85% relative

3. 16 Lands list 1 island, 2 swamp
- On the play : 1,14% absolute / 3,15% relative
- On the draw : 0,49% absolute / 1,36% relative

4. 16 Lands list 2 island, 2 swamp
- On the play : 1,56% absolute / 4,31% relative
- On the draw : 1,03% absolute / 2,85% relative

Feel free to comment on any scenario I might not have considered in my cases, I'll redo the maths.

Sturtzilla

06-08-2011, 06:26 PM

@Sturtzilla
I'm running the same list as yours with -1 Land +1 Daze (-1 Leviathan -1 Iona + 1 Sphinx + 1 Jin).
Also I would suggest you to switch Swamp #2-3 and Island #2 for additional fetchs.

I have been wondering about my land base and my fatty/target creatures. Thanks for posting the math above about the basic land count. I found that really interesting. I do have a question, how are you liking running running the deck at 16 land? I just brought mine down to 17 and cutting another frightens me a bit. I know that I mulligan aggressively with this deck as it stands (I have on two separate occasions at tournaments mulled to 4 cards and still had a turn 2 dude, which subsequently won me the game [opponents don't generally take kindly to being blown out by a 4 card hand]) and I do not want to worsen that (neither the mulling nor the opponents being greater pussies [but just mostly the mulling part]). Furthermore, could you give me some reasoning on your selected creatures and numbers thereof? I like Leviathan and Iona but haven't really been using the Leviathan much lately and Iona seems like she has narrower uses now that there is JGCA.

Garobidou

06-08-2011, 07:37 PM

Honestly I did not think going down to 16 lands (I was running 17) before I saw Alsan's list. I tried it and I liked it.

Then I did the maths. If you don't want to run less than 12 permission spells (like I do), you have 4 options :
1) running 16 lands and 11/11/10 Discards/Creatures/Reanimates
2) running 17 lands and 10/11/10 (meaning 2 Hapless only)
3) running 17 lands and 11/10/10 (meaning only 6 creatures in addition to entomb)
4) running 17 lands and 11/11/9 (meaning only 1 Animate Dead)

If we stick with the opening hand reasoning, your probability to have the combo in initial hand is :
- Option 1 : 36,19%
- Option 2 : 35,56%
- Option 3 : 35,73%
- Option 4 : 34,88%

As you can see 16 lands is slightly better.
If you decide a counterspell for a land as you did, you reach 37,21%. But you lose permission. That's up to personal choice but I do enjoy the 12 permission spells.

Concerning the creatures I have 2 main reasons :

1) I want to reduce as much as I can variance. 2/3 of our discard outlets are random as we can't chose the creature we want to bin, we have to bin the one we have in hand. Having options (1-of) is great but it makes you rely on entomb (as Alsan also stated it). If Jin is the 1st target then we should run 4. Same reasoning applies for the following creatures, the 2nd creature should be a 2 or 3-of.

2) Moreover after turn 2, Jin loses efficiency. Especially against aggro where we can be overhelmed even if Jin succeeds to stick. So, as a 2nd creature, we should look at a strong target against aggro and an overall strong creature post T3. Sphinx is in my opinion the best one (except against Control but Jin's still good post T3 in that match up). It allows you to stabilize if low on life (after a Reanimate for example). It deals with large green creatures, goblins, burn, tombstalker, wurmcoil, empty the warrens... Even against merfolk he is great, even more if you managed to have no island. He is Go for the throat proof and smother proof (Team America, UBG Landstill). He is also Karakas-proof. And now, with Mental misstep, he is more 1cc removal-proof (his main weakness in the past). I think Mental misstep allows us to run creatures without any kind of shroud (Inkwell, Iona), which used to be sup-optimal intrinsic choices (but safer ones).

Clark Kant

06-08-2011, 10:59 PM

Garobidou, thank you for doing all the math supporting going down to 16 land. Can you please post your current (16 land) list?

I would love to test it out with one small modification...

I would cut a Mental Misstep (or Daze) to go down to 11 permission spells, and play a 11/11/11/11 configuration. And not just because that sounds so neat.

I think running less than 11 reanimates is a mistake for the following reasons.

Many (most) players seem to counter the second part of the combo, the actual reanimate effect, rather than the discard outlet. They are not threatened by a creature going into the yard, since they don't know if you can bring it out yet, but the second they see that you can, they FoW the Reanimate. Having spares of the second part of the combo is helpful.

It's not a bad play to animate/reanimate your opponents Tarmogoyf or Confidant or Nighthawk or some other creature in a pinch. You can do that if you have spares. I've won games thanks to Dazing my opponents Confidant, then Reanimating it over to my side.

Creatures do get killed by things other than Swords effects. If you have a spare reanimate effect, you're set.

On the play, you can easily pass the turn and discard if you what you are lacking is a discard outlet.

Sturtzilla

06-09-2011, 12:15 AM

@ Clark Kant

I would love to test it out with one small modification... I would cut a Mental Misstep (or Daze) to go down to 11 permission spells, and play a 11/11/11/11 configuration. And not just because that sounds so neat.

I have been really impressed at how good Animate Dead has been for me. I actually have been considering adding another (this would bring me to 3 in the main and 11 reanimation spells) to improve the chance of drawing it. On the permission package, I am only running 3 Daze and this has been working great. I hated (and still do) getting double Daze hands, especially if there was no Force of Will to be found. It can hurt tempo and mid to late game is nearly useless; whereas both FoW and Mental Misstep can still hard counter relevant spells. I think I will stick with 3 Daze, 4 FoW, and 4 MM.

I think running less than 11 reanimates is a mistake for the following reasons. Many (most) players seem to counter the second part of the combo, the actual reanimate effect, rather than the discard outlet. They are not threatened by a creature going into the yard, since they don't know if you can bring it out yet, but the second they see that you can, they FoW the Reanimate. Having spares of the second part of the combo is helpful.

This has been my experience as well. Players that know the deck will save counter magic for the real game winning spell, which is the deck's namesake, the reanimation spell. I think going +1 reanimate effect for my build is the right thing for now. Again that would bring me to 11 reanimate effects.

It's not a bad play to animate/reanimate your opponents Tarmogoyf or Confidant or Nighthawk or some other creature in a pinch. You can do that if you have spares. I've won games thanks to Dazing my opponents Confidant, then Reanimating it over to my side.

I totally agree. I like stealing Goyfs and KotR, but I am not sure if I would go for a Confidant. That seems pretty ballsy man.

Creatures do get killed by things other than Swords effects. If you have a spare reanimate effect, you're set.

I like MM here because it helps to keep StP and PtE from occurring.

@ Garobidou

I apologize for this long post. I agree with Clark Kant (although I am a firm supporter of MM over Daze for a 4 of), I think an 11/11/11/11 build could be pretty good. I will probably make a mod or two to my list and start testing this out. Thanks for the logic on the land and the creatures you use. I have been a bit under impressed with Inky as of late and a consistent turn 2-3 Jin seems better than an Iona almost all of the time. I guess they could both go to the board. I have been tending to go to Sphinx much of the time as it stands to seal the game. I think I might try the following creatures:

3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

1 Flex Slot (JGCA or maybe Elesh Norn)

Clark Kant

06-09-2011, 07:08 AM

Iona completely hoses random monocolored decks. There is literally nothing that a monocolored deck can do against Iona. I think it warrants atleast one slot for that reason alone (perhaps in your flex slot).

I'm still hoping that Garobidou posts his list, so I can test out the viability of the 16 land configuration myself. It sounds very risky going that low with the manabase in a meta filled with Wasteland.

Garobidou

06-09-2011, 08:45 AM

Here is my latest list :

MD :
4 Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Sclading Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB :
2 Null Rod
1 Dispel
1 Misdirection
3 Show and tell
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 Blazing Archon

I agree about Iona's wrecking monocolor decks. However it's far less efficient if they're running Vial.

About SBing, usually I remove the 2 Animate Dead + 3 Hapless Researcher and the 3 Show and Tell + 2 Thoughtseize come in.
The large SB creatures number has 2 reasons :
- Be able to have the best creatures in G2/G3
- Be consistent with the more controllish road yo take by running 3 Show and Tell (Jin is quite a poor SnT target, except against control)

Clark Kant

06-09-2011, 12:23 PM

The monocolored decks that Iona destroys that happen to run vial also happen to be the same decks that don't run either StP or Thoughtseize. Your Mental Missteps are best used to stop their vial. Iona is as such still awesome in that scenario. I think I would always play one Iona to entomb for against burn and a whole slew of annoying monocolored decks.

Thanks Grabidou. If you had to cut one copy of one card, either Daze or Mental Misstep, which would you rather cut?

Strutzilla, if not Iona, do you see any value to Terastodon dealing with opponents Ensnaring Bridges, Jaces and other annoying permanents as well as turning your excess lands into elephants?

theBloody

06-09-2011, 05:15 PM

Sturtzilla

06-09-2011, 06:26 PM

@ Garobidou

I agree about Iona's wrecking monocolor decks. However it's far less efficient if they're running Vial.

I think nearly everyone would agree. The minor problem is that as you have listed many monocolor builds run vial and can keep playing. The major problem in my mind would be that there are numerous multicolor builds that are competitive now with multiple means to remove a reanimated Iona. So you spent 2 (or more) cards and maybe 9 life to bring her into play just to get axed.

Quick example, playing against Zoo, you are forced to get an Iona (I know poor decision first off). There is no clear cut call. Do you say white for protection from StP and Path, red for not getting burned out or Iona killed, or green to prevent further Goyf and KotR beats? I think that both the white and red routes offer more net benefit, but this would all depend on what is in your hand and therefore what you can counter. I just don't think she really shines as much as she used to.

About SBing, usually I remove the 2 Animate Dead + 3 Hapless Researcher and the 3 Show and Tell + 2 Thoughtseize come in.

I have been running 3 Show and Tell in my board for quite some time and my results/opinion on whether or not is good to go to it game 2-3 is a bit uncertain. Sometimes it is exactly what the deck requires and allows you to bypass the siding in of graveyard hate (which we all expect). Yet other times it clogs up fast hands that would have blown out the opposition anyways. I do like the idea of going to to both Thoughtseize and SnT for added protection. I may have to try this idea a bit.

The large SB creatures number has 2 reasons :
- Be able to have the best creatures in G2/G3
- Be consistent with the more controllish road you take by running 3 Show and Tell (Jin is quite a poor SnT target, except against control)

I have to agree here. Some amount of the board I would say 3-5 slots depending on build should be devoted to creatures that allow you the best advantages in games 2-3. These slots should also be somewhat tailored to your meta. For example, before Elesh Norn, I ran a Triskelion (I know it sounds bad; hold on for a second) in my board to deal with Peacekeepers.

I have more thoughts to add in here but will edit the post in a bit.

Clark Kant

06-09-2011, 07:26 PM

Anyone is welcome to answer my previous question. If you had to cut one copy of one card, either Daze or Mental Misstep, which would you rather cut?

Zoo was always a deck that Iona sucked/did little vs. Most other decks there is an easy color choice. I think it's too good in some matchups not to play as a one of.

As for Inkwell, it owns control and most aggro control decks.

dameus

06-09-2011, 07:51 PM

If you had to cut one copy of one card, either Daze or Mental Misstep, which would you rather cut?

I'd keep Mental Misstep and cut Daze any day. It's not even close!

Sturtzilla

06-09-2011, 11:04 PM

@ Clark Kant

If you had to cut one copy of one card, either Daze or Mental Misstep, which would you rather cut?

Anyone is welcome to answer my previous question. If you had to cut one copy of one card, either Daze or Mental Misstep, which would you rather cut?

I believe you already know my personal feelings on this issue. I believe that currently Mental Misstep has a slight edge over Daze. Both Mental Misstep and Daze allow you to counter early game spells. Both can be really devastating to your opponent's early game tempo. Mental Misstep does not cause you to lose tempo, while Daze does (if played for the alternate cost). I think that while Mental Misstep is slightly more narrow in what it can target, it counters many of the dangerous spells we will see in the early game (Duress, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Aether Vial, and other Mental Missteps). Let's face it we really want to have a fatty by turn 2 or 3, which means our opponents are playing mostly 1-2 (we are on the play) or 1-3 (we are on the draw) converted mana cost spells. Mental Misstep also has costs that are easier to pay but normally and alternate. Also a hand with 2 Mental Missteps is not necessarily bad depending what you are playing against. A hand with 2 Dazes is by no means ideal. So as you can guess I will be playing 4 Mental Misstep and 3 Daze.

Strutzilla, if not Iona, do you see any value to Terastodon dealing with opponents Ensnaring Bridges, Jaces and other annoying permanents as well as turning your excess lands into elephants?

First and foremost you spelled my name wrong. That's no biggie tho... I will let you slide this time ; ). I do like Terastodon. However since I am on the Jin bandwagon he is my go to creature. I think Terastodon can be really good; however, he doesn't make my main deck for a few reasons.

First I am playing 11 counter spells and my deck has been really consistent as of late. Therefore, I don't let permanents like Ensnaring Bridge or Jace (turn 4 plays) resolve (I do have him in the board to deal to improve how many outs I have in these situations though). I will move him in in games 2-3 to help out if needed.

The second reason is that using him to nuke your own lands is a very "all in" kind of move. Sure it can get you a quick 18 points of potential damage on the board, but 3/3s aren't really all that scary if they don't happen turn 2 or at latest 3. Plus this plan keeps you off land and commits you to this kamikaze plan. You then need to swing for the fences and hope you can out race your opponent. Overall I don't like this strategy, but in some match ups it can be really devastating to your opponent.

Sturtzilla

06-09-2011, 11:41 PM

I'm playing reanimator too. What you think about this new card? Will it hurt us much in the way of (almost) uncounterable counter?

Flusterstorm U
Instant - Rare
Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless it's controller pays 1.
Storm

I apologize for getting post happy here but I am living in a hotel until I can get my summer housing at the National Lab at which I am working this summer. That doesn't leave me much to do. This is relevant because the internet here is a bit shady... so I have been double posting and having a rough time getting the forum to load at times.

Anyway, I think that this spell has some major promise. It could be very bad for us, but on the flip side the answer for it is itself. If you play it after your opponent you get a storm of their X+1. This means you could for one mana effectively counter all of the various counter spells, providing they have little or no open mana. I think it will be interesting to see if/how this spell will be used. We could main deck it for graveyard hate and opposing counter spells, worse case scenario it is still a Spell Pierce. It would have the benefit of improving or storm combo match ups a lot too.

Ultimately, I think that skilled players will figure out how to make this deck survive. We have gotten past free counter spells like Daze, Force of Will, and Mental Misstep. I think that while this spell isn't free, it has the potential to affect the game like one. That however may not necessarily be a bad thing though.

Garobidou

06-10-2011, 03:58 AM

@ Clark Kant : If I were to run 11 counterspells, I would cut 1 Daze. I can understand the fact you want a 11/11/11/11 setup, I think these are minor modifications up to personal preference

@ Flusterstorm : this card is great against us. However I don't think it will see MD play as it is too narrow.
But the card is also great for us. It fits perfectly a more controlish gameplan where we prepare for a counter-war. Please note that it is Mental Misstep's proof. I'll play it as a 2-of in my SB instead of Dispel.

Mr.Dieth

06-10-2011, 05:52 AM

flutterstorm is WAY worse then spell pierce is.

Flutterstorm doesn't catch a lot of hate against us. It doesn't catch: relic, wheel, crypt,
It also doesn't catch: jace, ensnaring bridge, sdt, chalice, trinisphere, ...

So I would take spell pierce over flutterstorm any day.

Spell pierce is often in a counterwar good to .. So I do not see the added bennefit of flutterstorm..

Versatility is key !

Sturtzilla

06-10-2011, 11:57 AM

flutterstorm is WAY worse then spell pierce is.

About halfway through my post I forgot that it can only counter instants and soceries. So yes it would be a bit more narrow than Spell Pierce in general. On the other hand you should have copies on Daze, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will to take care of those other pesky spells that hurt us. Lastly I am in agreement with Garobidou. This card can give us a dramatic edge over other decks that are just trying to counter our reanimation route (or sideboard SnT). I think that it can also give us some better tech for storm decks. However I haven't really been having much trouble with ANT or TES lately. A turn 2-3 Jin with a counter spell or two can really foul them up, if you know where to point it. On a side note when and in what will Flutterstorm be released? I am just curious.

Sims

06-10-2011, 01:22 PM

Released in the Commander precons later this month.

Tacosnape

06-10-2011, 01:28 PM

RE Flusterstorm: Against a Reanimator deck that packs Force, Daze, and Mental Misstep, two "Counter unless you pay 1" spells is WAY better than one "Counter unless you pay 2" spell.

This spell's existence is absolutely terrible for Reanimator. You're better off running Pierce to catch hate. Some decks, however, will board this card and just love it against you.

Solution's pretty easy, though. Run more Animate Dead, which blanks a lot of weird counters in the format, ranging from Cursecatcher to Mental Misstep to now Flusterstorm. The card probably won't show up outside of a few sideboards, and it probably isn't worth much adaptation beyond that.

theBloody

06-10-2011, 02:18 PM

@ Tacosnape: next solutions are:
1) run Flusterstorm also
2) run discards

Mr.Dieth

06-10-2011, 04:24 PM

Would you really waste sideboard slots just to counteract 1 card, a card that is probably not going to see much play, because for al it's uses, often there is a better alternative to find.

+ if you are really scared of counters, why don't you just splash for green and xantid swarm. Now that I think of it, Isn't that a good idea ? Splashing green for xantid swarm ? I think It would Really Really be good in de the merfolk, control matchup. Even against deck like bant. No they are going to waste their stp on your swarms instead on your jin / sphinx.

No that I think of it, I will probably go and test it out ^^, ( unless someone can now just point out to me, what I am overlooking, why it isn't such a good idea )

alderon666

06-10-2011, 04:39 PM

alderon666

06-10-2011, 04:39 PM

practical joke

06-10-2011, 09:47 PM

I'd keep Mental Misstep and cut Daze any day. It's not even close!

I'm completely on the opposite side of that opinion.

I hardly see a reason to run mental misstep, how great it may seem.

However I still run a landlight manabase with lotus petal, cuz the one thing reanimater lacks nowadays is aggression.

Zoo is a very winnable match, but still hard to win. I always won it on iona, but back in the days empyrial archangel really did it's job as well....
when being able to exhume, zoo is easymode...iona white goes all the way, zoo can race, but they cannot race that much without killing themselves, except when steppe lynx zoo. At that point, and one of the very few decks in legacy atm, I want mm above daze.

Clark Kant

06-10-2011, 11:37 PM

Now that Thoughtseize and Inquisition have mostly replaced Duress (target player vs target opponent), Misdirection does a fantastic job as FoW 5-8. Something to consider if Mystical Tutor gets unbanned and the deck thus has more open slots while still going 12/12/12.

Sturtzilla

06-11-2011, 10:16 AM

I am trying to work a third Misdirection into my sideboard at the moment. As Clark Kant stated, it helps with a lot of discard issues. This falls right in line with what I was considering it for. My thought process was, board it in against Team America, Junk, monoblack discard to turn Hymn to Tourach back at its caster. Sure it is a 2 for 3 but it is far better than using a Force of Will in that situation. I would rather ditch my two cards and make my opponent lose two at random rather than just counter their spell. It is also great against all of Junk's creature and permanent removal. Sure Vindicate? I will Misdirect that to your dual land (or KotR, Goyf, etc). I suppose it has other great targets like that example in lots of other match ups as well.

Mr.Dieth

06-11-2011, 10:51 AM

I like how attacking with Xantid and then reanimating Jin garantees you to at least draw 7, as they can't play their removal until the end of the turn.

You are right! even more uses for the xantid swarm! I thought of it as a nice protection against counters / extirpate surgical extraction and stuff, but it is also awesome against removal ! Wow I am really starting to like the idea of xantid swarm ^^.

On misdirection: Yess, he is awesome. Also letting you misdirect a STP On their dudes. I have had 2 in the board for a while now, and I Really Really like them. If I find room for one more I will go up to 3. ( misdirecting a Hymm is just brutal and is easily a Win on its own. )

On the 16 land build: really dislike it, It's seems I often fail to hit 2 lands when I have an exhume / animate dead in hand. And I don't think cutting the one land for an extra 'reanimate-card' is worth the extra percentage of screw you give yourself.

Sturtzilla

06-11-2011, 01:08 PM

You are right! even more uses for the xantid swarm! I thought of it as a nice protection against counters / extirpate surgical extraction and stuff, but it is also awesome against removal ! Wow I am really starting to like the idea of xantid swarm ^^.

I am not sure it is worth splashing into green for this inclusion. I mean it makes it even harder to play around Wasteland and or difficult to get the color you need. I guess you could try to reanimate him and then reanimate Jin, but this sounds really slow. It also seems unnecessary when you consider that the deck runs Force of Will, Daze, and some extra counter magic like Mental Misstep. Also as long as you reanimate on turn 2-3 most decks will have tapped out against you anyway. This means you will almost always get your draw seven. After the draw seven you should have a fist for of counters and reanimation spells complemented by a bin full of dudes and land.

On misdirection: Yess, he is awesome. Also letting you misdirect a STP On their dudes. I have had 2 in the board for a while now, and I Really Really like them. If I find room for one more I will go up to 3. ( misdirecting a Hymm is just brutal and is easily a Win on its own. )

I have been arguing for quite some time with my friends/playgroup that it is great against decks that run Hymn and decent against any type of removal. A 3 for 2 exchange is great in the case of Hymn. Especially if you were going to just have to pitch one to FoW anyway. I have done this and it can just blow out Junk/Rock. Furthermore the 2 for 2 exchange is pretty good for us as well in the case of removal. We play Misdirection pitching a post reanimation Careful Study of Hapless Researcher and get their spell and scariest creature while saving our dude. Seems like a win to me in all respects. This card can also help in counter wars.

On the 16 land build: really dislike it, It's seems I often fail to hit 2 lands when I have an exhume / animate dead in hand. And I don't think cutting the one land for an extra 'reanimate-card' is worth the extra percentage of screw you give yourself.

Honestly I haven't tested extensively yet. But keeping one land openers is bad, unless you have a fetch or undergound sea + a discard outlet and dude in hand or entomb + a reanimate. Otherwise you need to go back and try for two lands.

JonBarber

06-12-2011, 10:25 PM

Sturtzilla

06-13-2011, 12:48 PM

I got 6th place at the JupiterGames Invitational tournament with Reanimator. My feelings are the deck were that the nuts hands are nuts, but if your not reanimating on turn 1 or 2, you're probably not winning the game.

I agree that you really need to be fast with this deck, but many of our threats are so good that even a turn three dude is often times good enough to win a game or match. I am really interested in what you list was, how you sideboarded, and your match ups. Anyway I looked up your list. If anyone else is interested, it can be found here:

http://sales.jupitergamesonline.com/default/forum#/discussion/56/legacy-series-championship-top-8-decklists-61111

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to read a tournament report. Furthermore I have a few questions regarding your list. First how do you feel about the Darkslick Shores as opposed to running more fetch lands? Also could you speak to your sideboarding a bit? I notice you have some Null Rods, presumably to keep your graveyard safe in games 2 and 3 and potentially to combat affinity and or mono artifact decks. Is that correct? Lastly could you speak to the reasoning to your 11/10/11 configuration? This setup just seems a little different to me; however, I am sure that it can work. Congrats on the finish.

JonBarber

06-13-2011, 04:22 PM

I agree that you really need to be fast with this deck, but many of our threats are so good that even a turn three dude is often times good enough to win a game or match. I am really interested in what you list was, how you sideboarded, and your match ups. Anyway I looked up your list. If anyone else is interested, it can be found here:

http://sales.jupitergamesonline.com/default/forum#/discussion/56/legacy-series-championship-top-8-decklists-61111

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to read a tournament report. Furthermore I have a few questions regarding your list. First how do you feel about the Darkslick Shores as opposed to running more fetch lands? Also could you speak to your sideboarding a bit? I notice you have some Null Rods, presumably to keep your graveyard safe in games 2 and 3 and potentially to combat affinity and or mono artifact decks. Is that correct? Lastly could you speak to the reasoning to your 11/10/11 configuration? This setup just seems a little different to me; however, I am sure that it can work. Congrats on the finish.

Null rods were there mainly to combat relics/t-crypts, but had the splash effect of being generally good vs a variety of decks. Echoing truths dealt with humility's and ensaring bridges, needles for karakas and maze of ith, and the other creatures to shore up harder matchups. I decided to run darkslick shores to make sure I wasn't bringing my life total too low (especially since you lose 10 off a reanimated Jin), and it virtually never comes into play tapped (and if it does its rarely relevant).

I came to that split after a lot of testing. Typically you only need 1-2 ways to put a creature in the yard, but you needed more ways to bring them back/protect them, hence the 11 protection, 11 reanimate effects, and 10 discard.

Clark Kant

06-13-2011, 05:28 PM

I got 6th place at the JupiterGames Invitational tournament with Reanimator. My feelings are the deck were that the nuts hands are nuts, but if your not reanimating on turn 1 or 2, you're probably not winning the game.

I really love your list. Well done. Seeing as how you agree that Reanimator absolutely needs to go off early, I don't understand why you didn't cut the 17th land to add the 3rd Hapless Researcher.

Otherwise, your list looks absolutely perfect and I wouldn't change a thing.

JonBarber

06-13-2011, 06:14 PM

I really love your list. Well done. Seeing as how you agree that Reanimator absolutely needs to go off early, I don't understand why you didn't cut the 17th land to add the 3rd Hapless Researcher.

Otherwise, your list looks absolutely perfect and I wouldn't change a thing.

I ran 17 lands to ensure as few mulligans as possible. Being on the draw and having the ability to move to your end step and discard a creature is so powerful against blue decks. Mulliganing takes away that ability, therefore taking that risk to add another discard outlet didn't seem worth it to me.

alderon666

06-13-2011, 10:10 PM

After playing with the deck I felt like I needed a big fat hasted creature to end the game really fast after Jin hit the table.

Sure you can grind them out reanimating several creature locking them out of spells, combat step and etc. But something I felt pressed to win before I decked myself, especially if the they had blockers/Maze of Ith and such shenanigans.

I can even see some scenarios where a 8/8 haste trample flying creature could be useful... with some protection it can put a loadcrap of pressure on decks that try to race you.

I know it sounds bad, but exploring "bad ideas" is a part of optmizing a deck.

JonBarber

06-13-2011, 10:13 PM

Garobidou

06-14-2011, 11:44 AM

I ran 17 lands to ensure as few mulligans as possible. Being on the draw and having the ability to move to your end step and discard a creature is so powerful against blue decks. Mulliganing takes away that ability, therefore taking that risk to add another discard outlet didn't seem worth it to me.

Thanks for sharing your feedback on the deck.

I. About the Draw-discard strategy

The draw-discard strategy is very powerful indeed. However this is not that good against any deck packing T1 discard or T1 must-counters (including post board graveyard hate).

About optimizing the mulligans, I did the maths between the 3rd hapless and the 17th land. So the core setup is 11 creatures / 11 reanimate effects / 10 discards / 11 permission spells / 16 Lands. Here are the numbers :

1. Initial On the Draw hands allowing Draw - Discard strategy (I did include the one with Exhume/Animate Dead i.e the one reanimating only on T3)

a. With a 17 Lands build (2 islands + 2 swamps) : 31,19%
b. With a 16 Lands build (1 island + 1 swamp) : 30,31%

As a sidenote, a 16 Lands build with only 10 reanimate effects and 12 permission spells has 28,99% such initial hands.

2. Same as 1. but including this times the other "god" hands (such as entomb+reanimate effect)

a. With a 17 Lands build (2 islands + 2 swamps) : 46,10%
b. With a 16 Lands build (1 island + 1 swamp) : 45,58%

(43,36% for a 16 Lands build with only 10 reanimate effects and 12 permission spells)

As a conclusion : the difference is very small. This is mainly due to :
- the fact you're running 4 basic lands (especially 2 islands)
- the "other nuts hands"

Moreover, please be careful that these are initial hands on the draw. 16 Lands build is better at getting nuts initial hands on the play (see previous posts). But here again the difference is small and it is up to personal preference.

II. About optimization

If we want to go through optimization, I suggest we should list the different kinds of initial hands (on G1 as the information we gathered on the opponent might introduce some more subjectivity on G2-G3) and whether we would keep them or not.

That way we would know exactly which build is the best at having good initial hands (and optimizing mulligans).

Please note that the hands we will discuss haven't to be mutually independant (I won't count twice the same hand)

1. Principle

This is how I work : I have 12 categories.
- Entomb
- Exhume (including Exhume and Animate Dead)
- Reanimate
- Careful study
- Hapless Researcher. There is a difference because one draws 1 and the other 2. But 1 is better on T1 if you don't have the whole combo in hand (see Part 2). I will note "Careful Like" if the statement is true for Careful Study or Hapless Researcher.
- Creature
- Brainstorm
- Permission spells
- Swamps
- Islands
- Other lands (all of them give U and B)
NB : "U-Land" = Island or Other land. "B-land" = Swamp or Other land. "X-Land" = any land
- Other

2. God hands

God hands are hands in which we have all the combo elements. Whatever we will draw we will combo out before T3 (we are in goldfish mode, we don't take into account any opponent action as we are in G1 and don't know what he plays)

a. On the play

#1
1+ Entomb
1+ Reanimate
1+ B-Land

#2
1+ Entomb
1+ Exhume
1+ B-Land
1+ X-Land

#3
1+ Reanimate
1+ Careful Like
1+ Creature
1+ U-Land
1+ B-Land (might be the same land)

#4
1+ Exhume
1+ Careful Like
1+ Creature
1+ U-Land
1+ B-Land

#5
1+ Reanimate
1+ Creature
1+ B-Land

b. On the draw

Same as on the play : #1 to #5

#6
1+ Exhume
1+ Creature
1+ B-Land
1+ X-Land

3. Other keepable hands

This is where I think we should discuss a lot. If we want to reach the most optimized build we should throw away any subjectivity in deciding whether we keep a hand or not.

Here are some hands I would keep (I will add some later). Feel free to comment and add yours (and the reasons why you would keep it) :

a. On the play

#7 : missing the 2nd land
1+ Exhume
1+ Careful Like
1+ Creature
1+ U-Land

Reason : T1 Careful + Creature. With regular, on T2 you drew 2 to 3 cards (depending if it's Careful of Hapless). Between 64% and 75% chances of success.

#8 : missing the creature
1+ Reanimate
1+ Hapless
1+ Brainstorm
1+ U-Land
1+ B-Land (might be the same land)

Reason : T1 Hapless. T2 draw creature => Exhume. If not, T2 Brainstorm. You see 4 cards, you have 62% chances of success.

#9 : missing the creature
1+ Exhume
1+ Hapless
1+ Brainstorm
1+ U-Land
1+ B-Land

#10
To be continued

b. On the draw

#11
1+ Exhume
1+ Creature
1+ Brainstorm
1+ U-Land

Reason : Draw+Discard T1. Draw + cast BS T2 (if no land on the draw). You saw 5 cards and were looking for a land. You have more than 80% chances of success.

#12
To be continued

alderon666

06-14-2011, 01:19 PM

If you're worried about decking just animate dead or exhume another Jin-Gitaxias and they'll legend rule each other.

On a second thought, Terastodon kinda does that. You can get up to 18 power by trashing your own lands and easily rebuild, because of Jin draws.

Clark Kant

06-14-2011, 02:02 PM

Yep, and Terastadon also deals with random cards like Ensnaring Bridge and such that could screw you over. But mainly, being able to get 18 power on the board with one reanimate seems solid.

If your opponent is light on land/missed a land drop on turn 3 or so, that's your cue to knock out 2-3 lands from their board and lock them out of the game completely (This is assuming you also have a 5/4 Jin Gitaxis on the board to serve as a blocker).

It's nice to have atleast one card in the deck that can deal with resolved permanents.

Alsan

06-14-2011, 03:44 PM

I don't really care about permanents in G1, no one plays things that are unwinnable (no one plays Ensnaring Bridge maindeck, Jin wins Energy field, leyline of void maindeck is GG... etc) to us.

Based on the statistics of Garobidou, maybe the list should be something like this:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [NPH] Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [CNF] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
3 [JU] Hapless Researcher

// Spells
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
2 [B] Animate Dead
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
3 [NE] Daze
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FNM] Brainstorm

I don't know how to fit 11 creatures / 16 lands / 11 permission spells / 10 Discards / 11 Reanimate effects.

11 Creatures: 4x Jin, 1x Iona, 1x Sphinx, 1x Leviathan, 1x Blazing Archon, 3x Hapless
11 Permission: 4x Fow, 4x Mental misstep, 3x Daze
11 Discards: 4x Careful, 4x Entomb, 3x Hapless
11 Reanimate effects: 4x Reanimate, 4x Exhume, 3x Animate dead
16 Lands.

Has to be a mistake somewhere :/. I prefer cutting 11th reanimate spell than 11th discard, because the only way to play 11+11+11+11+16 it cutting one Brainstorm (and my religion says NO xD). The fact is, that most players will counter Careful study, stopping us discarding a fattie and (most important) digging into the deck. Usually we only need ONE reanimate spell, but well protected.

Am I wrong?

BTW, we played for fun the white version and was very bad xD.

Garobidou

06-14-2011, 03:55 PM

I don't know how to fit 11 creatures / 16 lands / 11 permission spells / 10 Discards / 11 Reanimate effects.

11 Creatures: 4x Jin, 1x Iona, 1x Sphinx, 1x Leviathan, 1x Blazing Archon, 3x Hapless
11 Permission: 4x Fow, 4x Mental misstep, 3x Daze
11 Discards: 4x Careful, 4x Entomb, 3x Hapless
11 Reanimate effects: 4x Reanimate, 4x Exhume, 3x Animate dead
16 Lands.

Has to be a mistake somewhere :/

Yeah, Hapless doesn't belong to creatures. Entomb does ;)
So with 7 creatures you're at 11 creatures (out of context this could be a great quote :p)

Alsan

06-14-2011, 04:58 PM

Ah, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnice xD (I figured the mistake was mine).

I'll test the day after tomorrow the new list and share results.

(BTW great quote xD)

Clark Kant

06-14-2011, 06:05 PM

Alsan, I would cut a Jin-Gitaxis or the Inkwell Leviathan from your list to either play the 3rd Animate Dead or the 4th Daze.

The former brings you to a...

11/11/11/11 configuration of creatures/reanimates/discard/permission. This is my preference as I think it feels more even and I seem to frequently face opponents that counter my reanimate spell.

The latter takes you to a...

11/10/11/12 configuration of the same. This is Garobidou's preference as he frequently faces opponents that counter his discard spell.

You are currently playing a...

12/10/11/11 configuration which I don't think is optimal.

If you're confused, Entomb counts as both a creature and a discard spell. Hapless Researcher counts as a discard spell, not a creature. Brainstorm doesn't count as anything, but it's too damn good not to play as a 4x of.

Kaslan

06-14-2011, 10:55 PM

my configuration is : 11creatures/ 8reanimates/ 8discard/ 11permission +4 Lim-Dûl's Vault (18 lands)

yes it is about a turn slower ( going off on turn 3 ) but i think its more consistent.

Lim-Dûl's Vault helps in game 2 and 3 to find side board cards.

did anyone else try out the vault? if so why did you like or not like it ?

Clark Kant

06-14-2011, 11:11 PM

I think Vault slows down the day way too much to be viable, and the current 11/11/11/11 configurations are actually extremely consistent as demonstrated by the recent top 8s.

If I were to play Lim Dul's Vault however, I would definately play a 9/9/9/12 17 land configuration + 4 Vault. That seems a lot more consistent.

This list is what I would play...

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
2 [NPH] Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [JU] Hapless Researcher

// Spells
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
1 [B] Animate Dead
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim Dul's Vault

Sturtzilla

06-15-2011, 12:13 AM

Alsan, I would cut a Jin-Gitaxis or the Inkwell Leviathan from your list to either play the 3rd Animate Dead or the 4th Daze.

I am in agreement. I am have been trying out the 4 JGCA lists and I am not really liking them too well. I know this boils down to player preference, but I am of the thought process that another reanimation spell is probably better than Jin number 4. While running 4 Jin, it was oddly reminiscent of running 4 Daze. There were hands where I would hit 2 Jin. This clogs up your hand unless you have a Force of Will to pitch the extra Jin to. Furthermore after a Jin was reanimated I would draw into more copies of him. These are not really useful and if they were another, different creature could have been reanimated. If one copy of the 4 Jins was an extra reanimation spell that could help actually get any dude into play. I am thinking that 3 JGCA is the way to go.

I also like running 11 Reanimation spells (4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, and 3 Animate Dead) because it has been my experience that the reanimation piece is the part of the combo that gets countered (unless you are playing against MUC and they might just counter everything they can). I do like having control elements and a good permission package, but this is a combo deck. And due to that I would have to side with playing the combo piece. I feel the 3rd Animate Dead is more important over a 4th Daze (not to mention I just have some poor feelings toward 4 Dazes in this deck).

On a completely different note, what are your guy's sideboarding strategies? I have been running Pithing Needle to hit Relics and Crypts and Well and Show and Tells to make my game 2-3 a bit better. That seems to work pretty well most of the time. I guess I am just looking to see if there are any ideas out there that I should be trying out. Thanks.

Darksteel

06-15-2011, 02:35 AM

Hey guys, lurker here. I decided I want to play Reanimator as soon as I saw Entomb was legal, but by the time I built it completely, Tutor got banned. Nevertheless, its recent success has convinced me to pick up the deck again. (Plus, my teammates U. Seas aren't seeing any play this Saturday (local tournament)).

Here's my list:

3x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Blazing Archon
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Angel of Despair (Iffy about it)
1x Inkwell Leviathan (Iffy about it as well)

4x Entomb
4x Careful Study
3x Hapless Researcher

4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Animate Dead

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze

4x Brainstorm

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp

Pretty much the same as everyone else's, but I only run 16 land. Should I run 17?

I also had some (newbie) questions about the deck. The sample hands and what to keep hands that Garobidou posted have helped tremendously.

A question I had was should I try to get out a creature as soon as possible? Or should I sorta slow roll it? I'm guessing it would depend on the matchup and hand I got, but I feel really vulnerable just sitting there for a few turns.

I wish there were videos of the current version of this deck which I could view for pointers. Unfortunately, the only ones I've found use Mystical Tutor versions.

theBloody

06-15-2011, 05:08 AM

I like Inkwell too much. He win me games versus rock (yeah, turn 2) and controls. But I run only 1 Jin, so he isn't my main win cond.
You should get out creature as soon as possible if you know what your opponent playing or if you don't you should get out Jin. Recommended is to have backup, but if you get out Jin, you probably get it.
But yeah, that is only my point of view:-)

New reanimator videos are here:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15315428
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15320273
Unfortunately they lose.

Alsan

06-15-2011, 06:20 AM

I'm not confused Clark, but thanks 4 explanation :). If I have to cut 1 JGCA, I'll not add the 11th reanimation spell, I don't think having a hand with 3 reanimation spells and less digging or less creatures is, as you said, optimal. And I'll not add the 4th daze again, I've changed it to Misdirection (1-off, I know, I have another in Sb), and it fits perfectly. But I don't think having 7 creatures improves the G1 plan of (on the draw) draw and discard. It's hard to happen with 4 careful and 3 hapless, but sometimes it does (god hand of mental, fow + blue, land, reanimate, JGCA and brainstorm / 2nd land). If instead of the 12th creature we have 1 animate dead... :/.

My Sb plan has changed a little:

3x Dispel
2x Echoing truth
1x Misdirection
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Pithing Needle
2x Null rod
1x Elesh Norn
1x Terastodon
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Show and tell / Coffin purge (now the proliferation of Reanimator here has begun)

I've reduced S&T because the lack of basic lands makes the spell more difficult to play, and an JGCA from turn 3+ is bad if not vs control. Monoblack is a deck that sees a minor play (with Leylines), and if we have jin on board we having the S&T and another creature in hand is easy, and he can't abuse of it (ever xD).

Garobidou

06-15-2011, 09:47 AM

Some more numbers (C = Creature; D = Discard outlet; R = Reanimate effect).

Given 16 Lands (1 island, 1 swamp), 11 Permission spells, 11 C, 11 D and 11 R I tested the marginal impact of Creatures, Discard Outlets and Reanimate Effects on the build (+1 somewhere, -1 elsewhere). Same as yesterday, these numbers are for god hands on the draw (making draw-discard strategy acceptable).

C = Creature; D = Discard outlet; R = Reanimate effect

1) 12 C / 10 D / 11 R : 47,49%
2) 11 C / 10 D / 12 R : 47,07%
3) 12 C / 11 D / 10 R : 45,68%
4) 11 C / 11 D / 11 R : 45,58% (already given yesterday)
5) 10 C / 11 D / 12 R : 44,76%
6) 11 C / 12 D / 10 R : 43,76%
7) 10 C / 12 D / 11 R : 43,26%

Conclusion : discards outlets seem the "worst" part of the combo on the draw. However :
- We are only dealing with God Hands here and the draw part of our discards outlets let us keep some unkeepable hands. I do think we should focus on determining those keepable hands.
- On the play, the Draw-Discard strategy is weaker as only Reanimate allows to reanimate by turn 3. Straight strategy has more weight and so have discard outlets.

Sturtzilla

06-15-2011, 10:37 AM

@ Darksteel

I have a couple thoughts about your list. First off overall it looks very solid. I guess I have two concerns though overall that I will point out. I have counted the number of cards in your list a few times. I got 61 cards each time. I would strongly recommend slimming the list down to the standard 60 cards. The second concern that I have is the inclusion of Angel of Despair. Sure she can be great. She is a four turn clock and at very least sets them back a land drop, if not nuking a goyf or KotR. I guess I am just a little iffy on that choice. Think about the other guys you could reanimate at a converted mana cost of eight. You have Sphinx of the Steel Wind which basically does that same thing. It goes in and defends simultanesouly all while gaining you life to fuel more reanimation. I think Sphinx is the better call here. If you bump up one mana in the CMC, you can get Iona, Archon, or Inkwell. Against aggro Archon will singlehandedly win you the game. Against any mono color deck and some combo builds Iona just shuts them down. And lastly Inkwell shines in matchups with lots of removal or agaisnt any deck with an island. I guess my thought process here is that Angel of Despair is a solid option, but she doesn't quite edge out the competition for a slot in this deck.

@ theBloody

Thanks for the videos!

@ Alsan

Thanks for posting your sideboard. What would you say is a normal boarding plan for games 2-3? Could you give a rundown of some common match ups and what you board in and out? I am just really interested to see what some other players do in that department. I have been playing the deck for quite a long time and have never really zoned in on one coherent sideboarding strategy. So any advice would be appreciated and help.

@ Garobidou

1) 12 C / 10 D / 11 R : 47,49%
2) 11 C / 10 D / 12 R : 47,07%
3) 12 C / 11 D / 10 R : 45,68%
4) 11 C / 11 D / 11 R : 45,58% (already given yesterday)
5) 10 C / 11 D / 12 R : 44,76%
6) 11 C / 12 D / 10 R : 43,76%
7) 10 C / 12 D / 11 R : 43,26%

Considering these precentages and the fact that we will not always be on the draw, what is you personal view on the numbers? Do you really think it is worth it to go to a 12/10/11 build rather than the straight 11/11/11? Sure it raises our stats 2% when on the draw, but how does that affect us on the play? Moreover is a 2% benefit for a "god hand" worth choosing to be on the draw rather than on the play? I guess these are just some questions that I have rolling around in my head about these numbers. Any answers would be greatly helpful.

Clark Kant

06-15-2011, 01:32 PM

@Garobidou, Thank you for the doing the math. You're a really valuable resource for this thread.

I think 11/11/11 is a great balance between maxing out your chance at a god hand, while also, not sacrificing the midgame.

3x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Blazing Archon
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Angel of Despair (Iffy about it)
1x Inkwell Leviathan (Iffy about it as well)

4x Entomb
4x Careful Study
3x Hapless Researcher

4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Animate Dead

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze

4x Brainstorm

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp

This is a 61 card list. Cut the Angel of Despair from it, and your list would be absolutely perfect. I wouldn't change a single thing other than that.

I'm not too iffy on Inkwell. Yes, it's not as powerful as your other threats, but I like the idea of having one creature in the deck with Shroud that you can bring out when you anticipate a StP, are light on counters, or when you're ahead (when it's early) and you just want an unstoppable/resilient creature to finish them off.

Edit: Beaten by Sturtzilla. Yeah, so what he said. I agree with it. :)

@Sturtzilla, the problem with cutting draw or reanimate effects is that you are hurting your midgame to ever so slightly increase your god draw percentage. Draw is invaluable when you don't have a god hand. And Reanimates are invaluable if your god draw gets countered when you attempt to reanimate, and also when you have a Jin Gitaxis on the board, creatures in the yard, and want as many reanimate effects as possible.

Wess

06-15-2011, 01:48 PM

I like the simplicity of this new version of Reanimator on getting a fatty out turn 2, but it seems it folds too easily to random hate cards that are maindecked. Also, the creature being reanimated is usually random, due to the discard, and often, its not the ideal one (with only 4 tutor effects).

I've been testing a different build, which is more resilient and consistent based on intuition (8 tutor effects) ... also, when you do go for intuition, the opponent would not know which creature to select, as you can reanimate or show and tell it into play (or both on same turn).

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Flex Creature (testing Elash, Terrastodon maindeck)

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Intuition

4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

4 Show and Tell

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Misty Rainforest

SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 Misdirection
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 4 Thoughtsieze

Sturtzilla

06-15-2011, 06:38 PM

I think 11/11/11 is a great balance between maxing out your chance at a god hand, while also, not sacrificing the midgame.

@Sturtzilla, the problem with cutting draw or reanimate effects is that you are hurting your midgame to ever so slightly increase your god draw percentage. Draw is invaluable when you don't have a god hand. And Reanimates are invaluable if your god draw gets countered when you attempt to reanimate, and also when you have a Jin Gitaxis on the board, creatures in the yard, and want as many reanimate effects as possible.

I am going to conclude from these statements that you are in favor of the 11/11/11 build. I am pretty sure that I agree with you. I would prefer to have a fairly balanced deck for the whole of the game at the cost of ~2% chance to "god-hand" (Especially if the math says that it will happen 45% of the time on the draw). That is what I have been running lately and it has been doing pretty well. Actually at a FNM a week or two ago, a few buddies and I got our legacy decks out and were playing between rounds. Some people starting watching me play and I had a lot of comments about how consistent the deck was getting a turn 2-3 dude. So maybe the quad 11 split is the way to go.

Sandoz

06-15-2011, 08:27 PM

On a completely different note, what are your guy's sideboarding strategies?

Hi all,

as there seems to be almost an agreement on the most efficient main deck construction, I find this a very important question. Generally, with the current builds I perceive sideboarding even more tricky than it was before the release of JGCA. It's a tricky effort to integrate an effective sb-plan in g2/g3 while maintaining the consistency of the core of the deck. Often, my theoretical sideboard-plans turned out to be not feasible/effective enough in practice.

Overall, I see three general aspects in sideboarding, whose are new or at least received an even higher importance in the post JGCA era:

a. Rating the effect of all cards before and after the reanimation of Jin
(one of the reasons why discard spells like Thoughtseize don't really fit anymore)
b. We now have 10 up to 12 counter spells main deck compared to 8 spells before New Phyrexia
(which provides more reliable protection, especially for Jin)
c. Due to turning away from splashing a third color most builds now only play 17 or even just 16 lands, which makes casting spells with CMC 3 more difficult
(many times I'm thinking of completely cutting Show & Tell for this reason)

Before throwing into discussion my current sideboard-plan, here is my list (which is nearly identical to those posted above):

4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Hapless Researcher

4 Entomb (I)
4 Exhume (S)
4 Reanimate (S)
2 Animate Dead (E)
4 Force of Will (I)
4 Mental Misstep (I)
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm (I)
4 Careful Study (S)
1 Show & Tell (S)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

11 Creatures / 11 Discard / 11 Reanimate(incl. S&T) / 11 Permission

Sideboard:
1 Show & Tell (S)
3 Boomerang (I)
3 Stifle (I)
2 Misdirection (I)
1 Extirpate (I)
1 Surgical Extraction (I)
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

General sideboarding plan g2/g3 regardless of opponent's deck:
- 2 Hapless Researcher
- 2 Animate Dead
+ 1 Show & Tell
+ 3 Boomerang/Echoing Truth

Thus, regarding the core mechanics the deck becomes a 11/10/10/11 build in g2. Plus, it now has 3 bounce spells.
Of course, Show & Tell makes the deck a bit slower. But, it promotes the count of reanimate/drop and discard in a quite efficient way while simultaneously enabling the integration of three bounce spells.
I think the -1 in the discard and reanimate slots is acceptable as in g2 there might be some gy-hate which needs to be deactivated before coming to business.

Regarding Boomerang: For a long time this slot has been Echoing Truth in my sideboard. Very valuable when facing Dredge or hordes as you know. But, these are mainly defensive thoughts. I think the sideboard should focus on clearing the way for the game plan. Both, ET and Boomerang, bounce those gy-hate artifacts, creatures and enchantments, which we missed to counter with our fat permission suite. In addition, Boomerang bounces lands as well. This is quite a nice play during opponent's discard phase after Jin has hit the table. For example, in order to get rid of an annoying Maze of Ith. What do you think on this? Is it worth sacrificing the ability to bounce serveral copies of one card on the battlefield for the ability to bounce lands?

Specific sideboarding plan depending on opponent's deck:

First of all, 4 exchangable creatures to adapt to the opponent's deck. Even the 4 JGCA can be replaced completely, if necessary.
However, following the rule "no defensive thoughts anymore" I'm thinking of replacing Blazing Archon, as it doesn't add to clearing the way.

The remaining 7 cards (Stifle, Misdirection, Extirpate) are potential substitutes for the 3 Daze and 4 Missteps. As we have a strong permission suite with up to 12 counter spells main, I think one should focus on surprising disruption at instant speed in g2/g3, as well.

Stifle over Pithing Needle/Null Rod:
Frequently, our creatures only need a small time slot to dip into our graveyard before becoming reanimated the same turn. For the duration of this slot Stifle handles all the relevant gy-hate that Pithing Needle/Null Rod do. Furthermore, it encounters your opponent unprepared. And it handles triggered abilities like Bojuka Bog and Planar Void, which PN doesn't. Last but not least, it is not vulnerable to artifact/permanent removal like PN/NR are. It has to be countered which strengthens our position in the permission-matchup even more. What do think on this?

Misdirection:
Tuning the counter spell suite.

Extirpate/Surgical Extraction:
Getting rid of things I don't want to face again for the rest of the game. Like devastating (recurring) Wastelands, Life from the Loam, and many other stuff that has a huge effect on our game play.

Well, these are my current thoughts on sideboarding.
Sorry, for writing such a long post and for misspelling.
English is not my first language.

Looking forward to your feedback!

Garobidou

06-16-2011, 05:13 AM

@ Darksteel
Considering these precentages and the fact that we will not always be on the draw, what is you personal view on the numbers? Do you really think it is worth it to go to a 12/10/11 build rather than the straight 11/11/11? Sure it raises our stats 2% when on the draw, but how does that affect us on the play? Moreover is a 2% benefit for a "god hand" worth choosing to be on the draw rather than on the play? I guess these are just some questions that I have rolling around in my head about these numbers. Any answers would be greatly helpful.

I'm building a more accurate model, taking into account the keepable hands (without all the combo parts) with their probabilites of turning good (getting the combo by T3). It should be ok tonight and I'll give the numbers. My intuition is we should not focus on the on the draw hands, especially because they heavily rely on Draw-Discard strategy which is less good on the play (a draw discard strategy with exhume in hand is not acceptable on the play as it means a T4 reanimation).

Moreover, if you run creatures in SB, for that game where you'll be on the wraw, you're perfectly able to focus post-SB on the draw-discard strategy by making your creature count bigger. However I'm not really fan of such a gameplan as you're also supposed to fight hate which is highly anti-synergic with a Draw-Discard strategy : you can't counter their T1 hate (otherwise you won't be able to discard) making your discarded creature very vulnerable to hate.

On a very blue environment (because the Draw-discard strategy is uncounterable), one could consider going 2nd in any case G1 and run an optimized build satisfying this gameplan. I'll see what can be done when I'm finished with my model.

Stifle over Pithing Needle/Null Rod:
Frequently, our creatures only need a small time slot to dip into our graveyard before becoming reanimated the same turn. For the duration of this slot Stifle handles all the relevant gy-hate that Pithing Needle/Null Rod do. Furthermore, it encounters your opponent unprepared. And it handles triggered abilities like Bojuka Bog and Planar Void, which PN doesn't. Last but not least, it is not vulnerable to artifact/permanent removal like PN/NR are. It has to be countered which strengthens our position in the permission-matchup even more. What do think on this?

I agree with you when you state that Stifle can answer most of hates (including Faerie Macabre) where Needle / Rod are more specific.

However, Stifle is bad for the following reason : it requires a lot of mana. This could seem weird but you have to be able to play stifle in response to their hate which happens when you're reanimating. That being said, if you play Exhume, you have to have 3 manas available :
- Best case : you have 3 manas by T3. In that case, I would prefer playing Show and Tell.
- Moderate case : you have 3 manas by T4-5. This is way too slow. That means Reanimate is the only Reanimate Effect to consider here, reducing heavily your chances of getting the combo.
- Worst case : you'll never hit 3 manas

Needle/Rod allows you to play with only 1-2 lands. Another advantage to Rod is that it is misstep-proof.

Garobidou

06-16-2011, 05:13 AM

Considering these precentages and the fact that we will not always be on the draw, what is you personal view on the numbers? Do you really think it is worth it to go to a 12/10/11 build rather than the straight 11/11/11? Sure it raises our stats 2% when on the draw, but how does that affect us on the play? Moreover is a 2% benefit for a "god hand" worth choosing to be on the draw rather than on the play? I guess these are just some questions that I have rolling around in my head about these numbers. Any answers would be greatly helpful.

I'm building a more accurate model, taking into account the keepable hands (without all the combo parts) with their probabilites of turning good (getting the combo by T3). It should be ok tonight and I'll give the numbers. My intuition is that we should not focus on the on the draw hands, especially because they heavily rely on Draw-Discard strategy; Such a strategy isn't that good on the play (a draw discard strategy with exhume in hand is not acceptable on the play as it means a T4 reanimation).

Moreover, if you run creatures in SB, for that game where you'll be on the wraw, you're perfectly able to focus post-SB on the draw-discard strategy by making your creature count bigger. However I'm not really fan of such a gameplan as you're also supposed to fight hate which is highly anti-synergic with a Draw-Discard strategy : you can't counter their T1 hate (otherwise you won't be able to discard) making your discarded creature very vulnerable to hate.

On a very blue environment (because the Draw-discard strategy is uncounterable), one could consider going 2nd in any case G1 and run an optimized build satisfying this gameplan. I'll see what can be done when I'm finished with my model.

Stifle over Pithing Needle/Null Rod:
Frequently, our creatures only need a small time slot to dip into our graveyard before becoming reanimated the same turn. For the duration of this slot Stifle handles all the relevant gy-hate that Pithing Needle/Null Rod do. Furthermore, it encounters your opponent unprepared. And it handles triggered abilities like Bojuka Bog and Planar Void, which PN doesn't. Last but not least, it is not vulnerable to artifact/permanent removal like PN/NR are. It has to be countered which strengthens our position in the permission-matchup even more. What do think on this?

I agree with you when you state that Stifle can answer most of hates (including Faerie Macabre) where Needle / Rod are more specific.

However, Stifle is bad for the following reason : it requires a lot of mana. This could seem weird but you have to be able to play stifle in response to their hate which happens when you're reanimating. That being said, if you play Exhume, you have to have 3 manas available :
- Case #1 (Best case) : you have 3 manas by T3. In that case, I would prefer playing Show and Tell.
- Case #2 : you have 3 manas by T4-5. This is way too slow. That means Reanimate is the only Reanimate Effect to consider here, reducing heavily your chances of getting the combo.
- Case #3 (Worst case) : you'll never hit 3 manas

Needle/Rod allows you to play with only 1-2 lands. Another advantage to Rod is that it is misstep-proof.

Sandoz

06-16-2011, 04:10 PM

Thanks for your valuable feedback, Garobidou!

you have to be able to play stifle in response to their hate which happens when you're reanimating.

Obviously, this timing aspect is the argument which clearly outweighs the drawbacks of Pithing Needle and which I did not consider. I’ll get back to the Needles. Cheers :-)

Alsan

06-17-2011, 09:42 AM

Yesterday I won a local store tournament with 0) 12 C / 10 D / 10 R : ¿?% and 12 permission (1 missdirection maindeck instead 3rd Animate dead, wich allowed me to be safe to swords being tapped under Platinum emperion fowless empire).

Can you made the numbers for those combination, Garobidou? Please and thanks :D

Sturtzilla

06-17-2011, 10:44 AM

As there seems to be almost an agreement on the most efficient main deck construction, I find this a very important question. Generally, with the current builds I perceive sideboarding even more tricky than it was before the release of JGCA. It's a tricky effort to integrate an effective sb-plan in g2/g3 while maintaining the consistency of the core of the deck. Often, my theoretical sideboard-plans turned out to be not feasible/effective enough in practice.

Honestly, I think this is the area that we need to be working on at this point. Developing a coherent sideboarding strategy that does not hurt the speed or permission portions of this deck is paramount. Many times I don't sideboard anything but creatures. I will just tweak the creature base a bit for games 2-3. This is because sometimes this deck is just so fast that it doesn't matter. I have been really happy with my build as of late and have been posting pretty decent stats with it at local events and in casual testing. With a turn 2-3 Jin there are not many decks out there that can really deal with your play. Especially when you consider the fact that you will be reanimating more guys and also able to counter relevant spells.

For example, in order to get rid of an annoying Maze of Ith. What do you think on this? Is it worth sacrificing the ability to bounce serveral copies of one card on the battlefield for the ability to bounce lands?

This is a very interesting concept. I think that your choice is going to have to be meta dependent. I would opt for echoing truth if you anticipate token decks like TES or Belcher. Nothing is more fun than watching them spend their hand to make like 20 goblins just to have them bounced and poof into nothingness. However if you think you will see more decks running KotR, I guess that could include Bant, Rock/Junk, Maverick, or even Lands, then you might want Boomerang. I personally like Echoing Truth a bit better for two main reasons. First it is going to be easier to cast, which means you don't set yourself back as far by planning to play it over Boomerang. The second reason it that if you have a Jin on the board you should probably be thinking about reanimating your next threat to get around say Maze of Ith (you could just Pithing Needle it too). The Boomerang thing seems decent but looks to me more like a cheeky play for fun. It strikes me as a "win-more" kind of play. If you are able to make the Boomerang play you should already be winning the game.

Additionally I really am interested in hearing other sideboarding strategies. I think that is what we should be focusing on, seeing as we are in near agreement on what the most effective maindeck is within a 2-3 card fluctuation.

Sandoz

06-17-2011, 12:45 PM

This is a very interesting concept. I think that your choice is going to have to be meta dependent. I would opt for echoing truth if you anticipate token decks like TES or Belcher. Nothing is more fun than watching them spend their hand to make like 20 goblins just to have them bounced and poof into nothingness. However if you think you will see more decks running KotR, I guess that could include Bant, Rock/Junk, Maverick, or even Lands, then you might want Boomerang. I personally like Echoing Truth a bit better for two main reasons. First it is going to be easier to cast, which means you don't set yourself back as far by planning to play it over Boomerang. The second reason it that if you have a Jin on the board you should probably be thinking about reanimating your next threat to get around say Maze of Ith (you could just Pithing Needle it too). The Boomerang thing seems decent but looks to me more like a cheeky play for fun. It strikes me as a "win-more" kind of play. If you are able to make the Boomerang play you should already be winning the game.

Thanks for your feedback, Sturtzilla. With my switch from Stifle back to Pithing Needle there's no reason to bounce lands like Maze, anymore. Thus, the Boomerangs have gone, as well. And Echoing Truth made its way back into my sideboard for tomorrow's local legacy tournament. :-)

Nevertheless, as you put it, sideboarding extremly hurts the speed of the deck. And less sideboarding might even be the best way in many situations. Perhaps, one of the best components of a sideboarding plan is the tuning of our permission suite. That's why I like the idea of playing Misdirection very much.

Anyway, I'm very interested in reading about other thoughts on sideboarding, as well.

Nice weekend!

Clark Kant

06-17-2011, 01:54 PM

Yeah, tuning our creature suite (or increasing it if we are on the draw), tuning or slightly increasing our permission suite (misdirection), and Echoing Truth vs Leyline of the Void or Pithing Needle vs Maze of Ith seem to be the best sideboard strategies.

Oops, almost forgot Show and Tell. That also works well, especially if you are on the play and are increasing your creature count.

So perhaps something like this...
4 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
3 Additional Utility Creatures
3 Misdirection (Take the place of Mental Misstep vs monoblue decks)
2 Show and Tell

But then again, cards like Null Rod/Energy Flux are very tempting vs Affinity/MuD.

Wess

06-17-2011, 04:33 PM

Some Points on creature selection:

-I have found maindeck Elesh Norn to be very good. The argument against it is that blazing archon does the same thing...but it really doesn't, Elesh is better in almost every situation.
In Legacy, the best creatures do things, they don't just attack (noble heirarch, stoneforge mystic, cursecatcher, gaddock tieg, dark confidant etc, etc). Elesh shuts down the opponents utility, while locking out dredge, merfolk, goblins, elves, zoo..etc from the game.

-Iona+Inkwell are very weak..almost always the first to get boarded out, thinking Terastodon maindeck better with 1 Iona.

-Gin-Gitaxis is always GG...3 is the right amount.

Summary:

3 Gin-Gitaxis
1 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Elesh
(maybe one Terastodon)

Sideboard should have 2 more Elesh to fetch with Intuition.

Sturtzilla

06-17-2011, 06:29 PM

4 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
3 Additional Utility Creatures
3 Misdirection (Take the place of Mental Misstep vs monoblue decks)
2 Show and Tell

I like the general configuration for a potential reanimator sideboard. I am not sure about running 4 Echoing Truth; I think I would lean more to the 2-3 range. I would consider Null Rod and Spell Pierce as other potential additions. As JonBarber stated in an earlier post, it can take care of pesky artifacts such as Relic and Crypt as well as allowing for blowout matches versus Affinity and Mono Artifact decks. If boarded in conjunction to Pithing Needle, it can allow for Needles to hit other targets. As for the 3 utility creatures, I am personally favoring an Iona, an Elesh, and a Terastadon. For reference my current sideboard is below. This brings me to my next point, Elesh.

3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Null Rod
2 Show and Tell
3 Misdirection
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Terastadon
1 Iona Shield of Emeria

3 Gin-Gitaxis
1 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Elesh
(maybe one Terastodon)

Sure creatures should do things and as such Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a pretty awesome card for this deck. Yet Elesh does not save us versus any build with a Natural Order package that will tutor out a Progenitus. Similarly, Elesh does not protect us versus sneak and show decks that cheat Emrakul into play. Now, I recognize that this is more than likely a small portion of any metagame, yet they are both decent decks that we should be prepared to contend with. With that in mind, Blazing Archon solves both of those problems plus many more. Sure he will not kill many of the smaller dudes you listed in you post. He will keep them from attacking you, which is the most relevant issue in nearly every match. There is also the issue of Elesh's vulnerability to Karakas. For these reasons, Archon is probably the better choice over Elesh for main decking. This will allow you time to set up more reanimation if necessary; however, it is likely that the Archon will be enough to finish off your opponent as it creates a 4 turn clock on its own.

Sturtzilla

06-17-2011, 07:36 PM

jcsy

06-18-2011, 05:41 AM

So I browsed through "The Gatherer" to familiarize myself with the new Commander cards. There were some that caught my eye that could be additions to the current Reanimator deck. I guess this is all supposing that these new card will be Legacy legal (any information on this would be helpful). I am pretty happy with my creature base but am always open to new considerations. So below you will find some interesting finds that we could discuss in this forum.

Archangel of Strife
Avatar of Slaughter
Celestial Force
Damia, Sage of Stone
Magmatic Force
Ruhan of the Fomori
Sewer Nemesis
Trench Gorger
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter

Now these options each have some sort of neat effect. Some offer faster clocks, removal, card advantage, etc. I guess I am just interested if you guys think any warrant testing.

Archangel of Strife - giving a zoo opponent +3 against this angel = sucide
Avatar of Slaughter - dont think double strike is too valuable in our combo deck
Celestial Force - 3 life ?
Damia, Sage of Stone - JGCA is better
Magmatic Force - 3 dmg per upkeep?
Ruhan of the Fomori - probably will hard cast this easily in other decks
Sewer Nemesis - i think even goyf might be better? perhaps choosing yourself and getting Tormod's after that might be funny. hard castable though
Trench Gorger - 43 lands perhaps
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - we dont have creatures to sac. bogardan hellkite ?

sorry, was just putting out that these guys might not be able to cut into our current selection that much. little under par of usefulnes

Kaslan

06-18-2011, 11:36 AM

how about Buried Alive :
Putrefax + Death's Shadow + mimeoplasm = 18-16 Trample, haste, infect creature
or
Empyrial Archangel + Death's Shadow + mimeoplasm = 18-21 Flying, shroud ( you cant die from attacks )

we can use Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengeance as reanimation spells ( both give your creature hast )

P.s. not my idea : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20970-Commander-Decks-New-Cards/page4&highlight=Edric%2C+Spymaster+of+Trest

vikram

06-18-2011, 12:57 PM

If there is any way to use Intuition to create an strong creature combo combo with Mimeoplasm, then playing both Buried Alive and Intution, and Sol lands/Rituals to combo out faster, will be a very potent deck in the format (maybe maindeck show and tell as well). It could have a manabase very similar to Fairie Stompy.

Even in such a deck though, I wouldn't replace permanent reanimate effects like Reanimate/Exhume with temporary one time use ones. Because the permanent reanimate effects will let you play cards like Careful Study and Entomb, and have an all around far more flexible and consistent (and faster) deck.

Mr.Dieth

06-18-2011, 01:01 PM

I don't see why people are currently going exited over the mimeoplasm thing.
There is no way you can get an instant kill with it, ( sometimes even two turns if they have a simple birds blocking it )

AND there already is a very good buried alive combo ( necrotic ooze, triskelion and phyrexian devourer ) which Kills on the spot.

So I really don't get it, why people are getting exited over the mimeoplams

Kaslan

06-18-2011, 01:09 PM

Kaslan

06-18-2011, 02:46 PM

or :
Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengeance + Buried Alive + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn + Death's Shadow + mimeoplasm...

a 28 - 28 Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6 + haste lol !

Mr.Dieth

06-18-2011, 03:26 PM

Putrefax + Death's Shadow + mimeoplasm = 18-16 Trample, haste, infect creature is a 1 turn kill

..... BAM, STP .....

A combo that folds to stp .. Great ..

Why, oh Why, is that better then necrotic ooze combo?

(nameless one)

06-18-2011, 05:57 PM

..... BAM, STP .....

A combo that folds to stp .. Great ..

Why, oh Why, is that better then necrotic ooze combo?

Because that combo is more interactive and Necrotic Ooze once set up is a straight up win? [/sarcasm]

Kaslan

06-19-2011, 01:51 AM

..... BAM, STP .....

A combo that folds to stp .. Great ..

Why, oh Why, is that better then necrotic ooze combo?
because every part of this combo can be played on it s own: you can cast Death's Shadow you can reanimate Empyrial Archangel and in a pinch you can pitch mimeoplasm to force of will.

+ you can play the normal 7 other creatures .

with the ooze combo its harder to play with Jin.

GexxX

06-19-2011, 09:30 AM

I don't really think the Deck gets any better by playing any kind of combo in it.
Let's be honest. The real problem is the consistency. Without this consistency the Deck won't be tier 1 in the current Metagame. I've been playing with Jin lately and I like the tune it gives the Deck, but right now we lack another good discard outlet. I don't like putrid imp, because there's no real benefit the discard has.

Another way to fight MM and GY-hate is propably Show and Tell. It might also add some consistency, but it is quite bad against a variety of Decks that also like to abuse the card.

What do you guys play as grave-fillers and why?

Sturtzilla

06-19-2011, 11:55 AM

Archangel of Strife
Avatar of Slaughter
Celestial Force
Damia, Sage of Stone
Magmatic Force
Ruhan of the Fomori
Sewer Nemesis
Trench Gorger
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter

Now these options each have some sort of neat effect. Some offer faster clocks, removal, card advantage, etc. I guess I am just interested if you guys think any warrant testing.

I would like to talk about some of these options. Archangel of Strife and Magmatic Force both allow for fast clocks. In the right match ups, Archangel of Strife could make for turn 4 wins. Call war and then beat for 9 twice. That should be enough to take care of decks running fetchlands or any other form of life loss. However as pointed out you wouldn't want to pull this out versus Zoo or Affinity. This may be a subpar call for the main but could be decent to add to the board versus slower control oriented builds. Just attack fast and kill them before they can set anything up. On the other hand, most of our other threats will only add an extra turn or two to this clock. Therefore I am just toying around with this idea.

Magmatic Force could prove another 2 turn clock in some match ups while also offering the bonus of recurring removal which could improve match ups with lots of little dorks (tempo bant, merfolk, zoo, affinity, etc.). Worse case scenario, you burn out your opponent in the exchange of 7 upkeeps, that is 4 opponent and 3 of yours. That is a pretty quick clock too. This plan can even work through combat lock down. This would make a great addition to combat pesky cards such as Peacekeepers, Propaganda, and so on. I think this new arrival could be a really good one-of for the main deck or at least considered for the sideboard.

The other cards I have listed are more than likely subpar, as we more than likely have better options in the main deck already. But I figured I would list them to get some feedback.

Garobidou

06-19-2011, 03:07 PM

@Latest posts

I don't want to be rude but if you want to talk about Ooze-Like Reanimator (or any other kind of Reanimator) you should create a new thread. Here we deal with classic UBx Reanimator lists. Thanks.

According to the new Commander creatures, no one makes the cut, we already have more powerful tools.

@Build optimization

I) The model

I made the math for a bunch of builds (25) according to a new model. This model takes into account 2 things :
- The god hands
- The "other keepable hands"

I call "Other keepable hands" hands statisfying 2 criterias :
- Hands with 1 combo piece missing
- Hands with a probability of getting by turn 3 the combo piece missing larger than 50% (50% is roughly the probability you have to get a god hand if you mulligain up to 5)

But I did not only considered these hands and their raw probabilities. For each other keepable hand, I determined the exact probability of having the combo by turn 3. This essentially takes into account the draws (regular draws + cantrips).
In that way, I turned other keepable hands into some god hands.

Example :
- we have 1% probabilty of drawing the keepable hand X
- that hand has a 50% probability of having the combo pieces by turn 3
=> this is equivalent to a god hand with a 0,5% probability

II) Results

You'll find below the math for :
- 7 cards hands ("no mull" in the picture below)
- 6 cards hands ("mull to 6" in the picture below)
- 5 cards hands ("mull to 5" in the picture below)
- The "sum" of the 3 : this is the probability of the strategy saying "I mulligan up to 5 if I don't have a God hand or a Keepable Hand"
- All of that on the play, on the draw, on "average" (50% of the on the play result + 50% of the on the draw result)
- With 11 or 12 permission spells

Results :

Entomb => Entomb
Exhume => Exhume and Animate Dead
Rea => Reanimate
Careful => Careful Study
Hapless => Hapless Researcher
Crea => Creature
BS Like => Brainstorm, Ponder...
Perm => Permission spells (Fow, Daze, Mental misstep)
Swamp => Swamp
Island => Island
Lands => Any non basic land (fetchs + Usea)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3812/reanimatorbuilds.jpg

Analysis :

1) The difference between being on the play or on the draw is quite significant (6,4%) and one could consider going second on G1 and having the good build to do so (17 Lands, 12 Creatures, 11 Reanimate effects, 11 Discard outlets, 2 Brainstorm with a massive 76,3%)

2) You don't have more than 2% difference between the 18 first builds so yeah we're optimizing but we have to be aware this might be up to personal preference without a huge impact (even if I will personally mainly try the first 3 builds)

3) The 2 Brainstorm strategy isn't an absurdity : dedicating more slots to the combo pieces seems the best strategy (remember these numbers take into account the draws coming from Brainstorm when you have it). Post board you bring them in to find your anti-hate more easily

4) If you want to run 4 Brainstorms the best strategy is 17 Lands, 11 Creatures, 11 Reanimate effects, 10 Discards outlets with 72,2%

5) Aslan, the build you asked for (12 Creature, 10 Discard, 10 Reanimate, 12 Permission) has an overall 70%

KevinTrudeau

06-19-2011, 07:08 PM

I've been testing the maindeck Clark Kant proposed with the sideboard Sturt proposed, and it's been rock-solid, much more consistent than the Lim-Dul's Vault lists I've played in the past. Once I finish my set of Seas and get a set of Entombs, I plan on playing this. Sphinx of the Steel Wind has gotten a lot better now that Mental Misstep has seen print.

Regarding Boomerang over Echoing Truth- aside from being harder to cast, it's also quite awkward against two Leyline of the Voids. Being able to Stone Rain at instant speed is nice, but at that point, you've already drawn seven new cards, and will likely have some permission in hand to deal with anything that the opponent might want to cast before they have to pitch their hand.

@Garobidou- thanks a ton for crunching the numbers. This table will be of great help.

Rampart

06-19-2011, 10:20 PM

Good afternoon,

I'm new to legacy and am looking for some perspectives on playing with terastadon. I played in a legacy tournament yesterday and didn't want to get the elephant or want to reanimate him all day. I ended up siding out the Don every match. So is the elephant worth a main deck slot? If you feel like he should be in the main deck how often do you use him?

Thanks

Clark Kant

06-19-2011, 11:20 PM

Kevin, awesome to hear you're enjoying the list.

[Analysis :

1) The difference between being on the play or on the draw is quite significant (6,4%) and one could consider going second on G1 and having the good build to do so (17 Lands, 12 Creatures, 11 Reanimate effects, 11 Discard outlets, 2 Brainstorm with a massive 76,3%)

2) You don't have more than 2% difference between the 18 first builds so yeah we're optimizing but we have to be aware this might be up to personal preference without a huge impact (even if I will personally mainly try the first 3 builds)

3) The 2 Brainstorm strategy isn't an absurdity : dedicating more slots to the combo pieces seems the best strategy (remember these numbers take into account the draws coming from Brainstorm when you have it). Post board you bring them in to find your anti-hate more easily.

4) If you want to run 4 Brainstorms the best strategy is 17 Lands, 11 Creatures, 11 Reanimate effects, 10 Discards outlets with 72,2%

5) Aslan, the build you asked for (12 Creature, 10 Discard, 10 Reanimate, 12 Permission) has an overall 70%

Absolutely stunning work Garobidou. Thank you so much for calculating all of that out. Many times I've found myself Brainstorming into junk, so it makes sense. I do appreciate Brainstorm for it's ability to get me sideboard hate easier though.

I am surprised that you results show nothing for a 3 Brainstorm configuration. Intuitively, 3 Brainstorm seems like a good compromise between consistency and flexibility.

I will absolutely try...

17 Land, 11 Permission, 3 Hapless Researcher, 4 Careful Study, 4 Entomb, 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 3 Animate Dead, 8 Creature, 2 Brainstorm build that your calculations recommend.

Ultimately though, I really want to play this configuration...

17 Land, 11 Permission, 3 Hapless Researcher, 4 Careful Study, 4 Entomb, 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 3 Animate Dead, 7 Creature, 3 Brainstorm.

Is there any chance that you calculated the statistics for that build?

I would really appreciate it a lot if you could post the results with that configuration. Thank you again.

Clark Kant

06-19-2011, 11:20 PM

Darksteel

06-20-2011, 03:21 AM

Thanks for the advice guys!

So I took Reanimator to a local four round Legacy tournament this Saturday. I went 2-2, but I managed to get at least one win in every round, which I was proud of, given my lack of experience with the deck.

3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (half-assed at the last minute):
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Terastodon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Pithing Needle
3 Echoing Truth
1 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
1 Submerge
2 Stifle

Regardless, here is a report. I stupidly forgot to take notes, so everything's from memory and a bit fuzzy, but I believe I got the general gist of things down. The sideboarding may not be exact, but along the lines of what I post.

Round 1 vs Mono Red Goblins (With no Wastelands/Ports and mental Misstep)

Game 1: He Misstep'd my Hapless Researcher, which I admit, I was not expecting! Nevertheless, I Misstep'd his Lackey and Entomb + Reanimate'd Sphinx the next turn. It was simple after that.

Out: 1 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Hapless Researcher, 1 Daze
In: 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Show and Tell, 2 Echoing Truth

Game 2: He sticks a first turn Vial. I draw a Misstep and play Sea, holding Entomb + Reanimate. I Entomb for Elesh Norn at the end of his turn, and bring it into play the next turn. It severely stalls him and swings for a resounding 3 a turn until he topdecks Stingscourger, for which I have no countermagic. I get a JGCA into my graveyard and make the stupidest mistake I've made in my Magic: The Gathering Career: I use Exhume instead of the Animate Dead in my hand; clearly, I wasn't thinking.
He of course gets Stingscourger and bounces JGCA back to my hand, where he sits while I eventually lose the game to Goblin Chieftain + Ringleader + Warchief + Piledriver, drawing a Hapless Researcher only to get it Misstep'd.

Game 3: He drops out Chalice of the Void at 1, two Tormod's Crypts, Warren Instigator after that, and I see no Echoing Truths at all and only draw 1-cost cards for the few turns I'm alive.

So yeah, horrible horrible mistake on my part lost me the round. I definitely need a lot more practice with the deck, that's for sure.

Round 2 vs a mono blue deck which used Basalt/Grim Monolith + Power Artifact to make Infinite Mana and Goblin Cannon/Cast Emrakul/Stroke of Genius for the win.

Game 1: I manage to stick a second turn JGCA which wins the game easily, as I don't believe he had any removal and even if he did, I was holding FOW, Daze, and Misstep.

Out: 2 JGCA, 1 Hapless Researcher, 1 Animate Dead, 2 Daze (Because he always seemed to have ridiculous mana), 1 Blazing Archon
In: 1 Iona, 1 Show and Tell, 2 Echoing Truth, 3 Pithing Needle

I honestly don't remember how Game 2 went, but I believe he assembled his combo quickly, through my Countermagic, and beat me.

Game 3: He gets a Leyline of the Void out before the game starts, so I'm searching for my bounce spells or Show and Tell. I manage to drop THREE Pithing Needles, naming both Monoliths and Goblin Cannon. He then manages to Power Artifact his Basalt Monolith into Helm of Obedience, and has enough mana to activate it to promptly kill me.

Again, more mistakes on my part and a very close game 3.

Round 3 vs Dredge (LEDless)

Game 1: Thanks to a Daze and 2 Mental Missteps, I keep him off of having 3 discard outlets. Eventually, he DDD's into a Golgari Thug. I use Reanimate on it to slow him down a bit, which is successful. From there, I managed to get out Blazing Archon and promptly won due to his lack of outs to it.

Out: 3 JGCA (Was this a good idea? My first instinct was "don't let Dredge discard their hand"
In: 1 Elesh Norn, 2 Echoing Truth

Game 2: I get out Elesh Norn which simply keeps him off of creatures for the game. I get there by swinging with Elesh Norn.

Luck on my part for the first game, being able to slow him down tremendously.

Round 4 vs Bant Aggro (With NO-Progenitus and Stoneforge-Batterskull)

Game 1: I get out second turn Inkwell Leviathan via Reanimate and he manages to get out Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. And, thanks to the Noble Hierarch he dropped, he fetched out non-blue lands, so I didn't have Islandwalk. He drops out multiple creatures after that and simply outraces me, thanks to that stupid Batterskull's lifelink.

Out: 1 Hapless Researcher, 1 Animate Dead, 1 JGCA, 1 Daze
In: 1 Show and Tell, 3 Echoing Truth

Game 2: I get out JGCA through countermagic second turn and he scoops.

Game 3: I manage to get out Blazing Archon with Animate Dead and he gets really crap draws which ultimately allows me to go the distance.[/spoiler]

Thoughts:

- Elesh Norn is beastly against certain decks, namely Dredge and Goblins. Considering their popularity in my metagame, I'm keeping Elesh in the sideboard.
- JGCA is also insane if he gets going.
- I really wish there was a way to tutor for Echoing Truth. lol
- This deck is fun as hell to play.
- Most games I lost were due to misplays (which I can work on with practice) or just bad luck.
- I really need to get another Show and Tell

Is there a guide to playing against graveyard hate?

Kich867

06-20-2011, 03:48 AM

Just out of curiosity, why would you Elesh Norn against Goblins and not Iona? They can still drop Vial and cheat them in, but you're running 11 counters to deal with 4 cards that every single one of your counters can hit.

Garobidou

06-20-2011, 04:47 AM

The best reanimate target against Goblins is Sphinx, not Iona nor Elesh. This is the main mistake Darksteel did in his Goblin game :
- Sphinx can't be removed by stingscourger nor Gempalm (that way it completely crushes Mono-R Goblin)
- Sphinx can attack : this is one of the main issue with Elesh Norn. It has no evasion so yeah it can stall but it cannot win. Sphinx can
- Gaining 12 life a turn (6 on yours, 6 on your opponent's turn if he attacks) prevents you from being alpha strike

@ Clark Kant :
Actually I did not consider the less than 4 brainstorms option before I did the math. I did it at the end and I just did it for the Kyle Kloster build. This is why there's no 3 Brainstorms build and not many 2 brainstorms builds.
However I'm currently doing the whole math for 200 builds (basically all the options you have for the remaining 11 cards of a 49-cards core build including 4 Entomb, 4 Exhume, 4 Rea, 4 Careful, 6 Creatures, 11 Permissions, 16 Lands). This will include 0, 1, 2 and 3 Brainstorms builds. I should finish tomorrow and post the results.

Sturtzilla

06-20-2011, 12:43 PM

@ Garobidou

Thanks for crunching all of the numbers! The table above is an awesome resource. I am looking forward to what your finding are for builds with varying numbers of brainstorms.

@ Clark Kant

I am surprised that you results show nothing for a 3 Brainstorm configuration. Intuitively, 3 Brainstorm seems like a good compromise between consistency and flexibility. 17 Land, 11 Permission, 3 Hapless Researcher, 4 Careful Study, 4 Entomb, 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 3 Animate Dead, 8 Creature, 2 Brainstorm build that your calculations recommend.

17 Land, 11 Permission, 3 Hapless Researcher, 4 Careful Study, 4 Entomb, 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 3 Animate Dead, 7 Creature, 3 Brainstorm.

I think that the two builds you have listed could both be really great. I am also very interested to see what the results will be for these. On a personal note I think I like the second one better, but I have a feeling that the stats for the first one would be a bit better. I agree with you about brainstorming trying to find pieces and getting nowhere. Maybe the best thing to do is in fact cut brainstorms for a combo pieces, land, etc to improve consistency.

@ KevinTrudeau

I am really glad that you have been having some decent success with the build that we have concocted here. On a side note, I believe that my main is basically one permission (-1 Daze for +1 Mental Misstep) and maybe one creature different than what Clark Kant is playing. Ultimately they are minor tweaks for meta game and player preference. Thanks for the feedback and keep on rolling people with this awesome build.

@ Rampant

The maindeckability of Terastadon is kind of meta dependant. I guess there would be some metas where he would always be a great target. Those would be slower, removal light ones. That way you can bring him in nuke your own lands and win the subsequent turn. Also if you meta has a load of troublesome permanents. Things like Ensnaring Bridge, Defense Grid, Propangda, Batterskull, etc. he can be great. Nuke the stuff that your opponent boarded in and rape them with a big elephant. However, it has been my experience that in game 1 Jin-Gitaxias is nearly always better. So, my short and answer is no, he does not belong in the main. I run one and he is in the sideboard. Finally, you said yourself you were boarding him out nearly every chance you got. I think that clearly shows that in your meta he should be in your board. Hope that helps!

@ Darksteel

Hey a 2-2 run with a deck the first time you go out with it isn't bad man! Like you said you made a few mistakes here and there. The fact that you recognized them and will take the knowledge forward is what matters. Hell, I have been playing variants of this deck for years and sometimes I still slip up. The more you play your build the more you will get comfortable with it and and know the ins and outs of it. This will be what allows you to finish better and start taking down entire tourneys.

@ Kich867

Elesh basically shuts down the entire deck. Sure they can vial in dudes but they will die when they hit play. The only things you have to worry about would be Stingscouger or maybe Gempalm Incinerator. I think Garobidou sums it up in an earlier post, but Sphinx is really the way to go in this match up. They can't remove him unless they have the black splash (even then it is questionable due to our Researchers and countermagic) and he will attack and defend simultanesouly while gaining you life and putting you out of their alpha strike range. I think Elesh is good in this match up but as demonstrated Sphinx is the clear go to creature.

Karhumies

06-20-2011, 06:34 PM

Since most of our main (creature/discard/animation/disrupt -wise) seems to have been put roughly into place, and since we have agreed that including a variety of creatures in the SB is a generally good idea (partly because we don't really know what else to include as the 3-4 last SB slots), I would like to get a discussion started about which creatures should be MD/SB in what kinds of metas now after New Phyrexia.

MD 7-8x creature, incl. 3 JGCA seems to be somewhat given. So 4-5 slots to play with.
SB 3-4x optional creature seems like a good number as well.

JGCA
+ Our best target
- Dredge
- Legendary (Karakas; also prevents 2nd identical animation)
- StoP
- Low power = slow racer by himself
Verdict: General target. Best creature versus unknown opponent.
Position: MD 3x

Iona, our "fallen star"
+ Mono-colored decks; however, Elesh can be better versus some mono decks with Vial (Merfolk, Goblins) and combo Elves
+ Protection versus removal by denying one color
- Often strictly worse than JGCA as T2 animation target against unknown opponent
- Legendary
- No vigilance; no blocking
Verdict: Mix of generalist and specialist target. Requires information about the opponent to be played correctly. Crushes some decks completely while merely OK against others.
Position: MD 1x + possibly SB 1x.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind
+ Goblins
+ Burn (although worse than Iona)
+ Zoo
+ Non-legendary
+ Life-gain
+ Vigilance = blocking!!
+ Protection from red (Goblins, Zoo/Lightning Bolt) and green (Tarmogoyf, KotR)
- StoP
Verdict: Generalist target. Weak against StoP, otherwise excellent racer.
Position: MD 1x

Blazing Archon
+ Merfolk
+ Tokens
+ Non-legendary
- StoP
- only 6 toughness for targeted damage, without prot. red
Verdict: General target. Not too slow.
Position: MD 1x

Inkwell Leviathan
+ Landstill (Pernicious Deed is very bad removal against Leviathan)
+ Shroud
+ Non-legendary
+ Trample
- No real capabilities to defend us from taking damage, unlike Sphinx/Iona/Archon/Terastodon
Verdict: Specialist target. Good mainly against decks which do not want to kill us in combat.
Position: SB 1x ? But close to being MD stuff.

Elesh Norn
+ Decreases opponent's combat
+ Elves
+ Dredge: absolutely crushes this MU
+ Handles Belcher/TES tokens
- StoP
- Legendary
Verdict: Like Iona, a mixture of a general and specialist target. But geared more towards the specialist end. Completely useless only in combo MU; absolutely crushes some MUs. Also utility: kills even Peacekeeper.
Position: SB 1x. Comes in as a specialist "improved Blazing Archon".

Terastodon
+ 18 power = 2 turn clock
+ Removal (Humility, Moat, etc.)
+ Non-legendary
+ Provides small blockers while big Fant can bash face
- "Slow" (T3 for 3 lands)
- Risky to blow up own lands
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks (T2 animation -> T3 kill) because JGCA is strictly better in that MU. However, provides utility by removing combat-preventing non-creature permanents. Also, non-legendary.
Position: Sideboard 1x

Platinum Emperion
- FoW
- Fetches
- StoP
- No evasion
+ Non-legendary
+ Lossless Reanimates (and Thoughtseizes)
+ Excellent "last ditch resort"
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks.
Position: No longer needed for SB.

Empyrial Archangel
+ Shroud
+ Zoo; although worse than Sphinx (well, at least better than most of our other options)
+ Non-legendary
- Slow clock
Verdict: General target. Jack of all trades, but a master of none? However: amazing 2nd animation target.
Position: No longer strictly needed for SB -> META choice?

Stormtide Leviathan
+ Evasion!!
+ Larger body than B.Archon
+ Zoo
+ Non-legendary
- StoP
- Merfolk
Verdict: Specialist offense target. 3 turn clock with insane evasion, while holding back the opponent. Possibly our best creature vs Zoo? But very weak against Merfolk.
Position: META choice for SB. Close to being a SB auto-include.

META possibilities for SB:
- Empyrial Archangel
- Stormtide Leviathan
- Massacre Wurm
- Sundering Titan
- Akroma, Angel of Wrath / Fury
- Angel of Despair
- Demon of Death's Gate
- It That Betrays
- Pathrazer of Ulamog
- Sheoldred, Whispering One
- Platinum Emperion
- Magmatic Force
- Platinum Angel
- Others?

BAD choices:
- Archangel of Strife (strictly worse than Demon of Death's Gate)

...which would result in:

MD
3x JGCA
1x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Iona
1x Flex slot (Inkwell?)
(1x Flex slot - Elesh Norn or a 2nd copy of another creature?)

SB
1x Inkwell / META slot
1x Terastodon
1x Elesh Norn
(1x Iona / META slot)

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 06:54 PM

Excellent analysis.

Currently I'm playing...

3x JGCA
2x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Iona
1x Inkwell (The weakest card in the maindeck to be sure, but it's the only creature that has Shroud, and I think it's important to always have one Shroud creature you can Entomb up when you know that your opponent is either not applying a whole lot of pressure on your life total, or when you know they are loaded with removal/bounce/sower of temptations)

maindeck (would move the Inkwell to the board if the math shows a 7 creature, 3 brainstorm configuration is almost as good as the 8 creature, 2 brainstorm configuration)

Side:
1x Elesh Norn
1x Terastodon
1x Iona (I face lots of monocolored decks)
1x Metachoice (I'm conflicted on what to play here).

Considering 1x Empyrial Archangel or 1x Platinum Emporium or 1x Sheoldred. I have never played Platinum Emporium so I have no idea how good that card is. But it definately looks like it has potential in the board. Sundering Titan looks sexy for the sideboard as well. Nuking three of their lands has got to be worthwhile right?

Alsan

06-20-2011, 07:27 PM

Platinum Emperion
- FoW
- Fetches
- StoP
- No evasion
+ Non-legendary
+ Lossless Reanimates (and Thoughtseizes)
+ Excellent "last ditch resort"
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks.
Position: No longer needed for SB.

Disagree.

+ Team america can't handle this without Jace (doesn't have throat, and R8)
+ Beats Merfolks as well as Blazing archon, reducing variance and making us less entomb dependant. (now they can kill JGCA with Dismember).
+ More than "Excellent last ditch resort", he allows us to reanimate at very low life, wich is unfair after a JGCA (-10).

Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks but to beat merfolks.
Position: 1x Sb slot, IMHO.

Excellent analysis, BTW.

KevinTrudeau

06-20-2011, 07:32 PM

Regarding going below four Brainstorms- while the statistics clearly show that a two Brainstorm build will have a higher chance of reanimating by turn three, the statistics are inherently flawed- they don't take into account opponent interactivity and which reanimation target you're getting out by turn three (Iona vs. MUD and Archon vs. PainterStone, for example, wouldn't be too useful). With Thoughtseize and other discard effects being a very relevant part of the general metagame, I would personally never go below four maindeck Brainstorms. That being said, if the builds with less Brainstorms turn out to have a dramatically higher third-turn average percentage rate (currently, 73.1% vs. my build's 71.5%), like over 5%, I would definitely consider it.

@Karhumies- I completely agree with your reanimation target analysis. 3 Jin, 1 Iona, 1 Sphinx, 1 Archon, and 1-2 flex slots (I play just Inky) main, with Elesh Norn and Rasta Don as the only for sure sideboard ones with another 1-2 meta slots. Elesh Norn is amazing against a surprisingly wide amount of the field, but against a lot of decks it's just a 4/7, which is why it shouldn't be in consideration for the main. I'd add Realm Razer and Platinum Angel to your meta possibilities list.

Karhumies

06-20-2011, 08:12 PM

@ Alsan: Merfolk can block P.Emperion to death (no evasion), which is why I consider him sub-par to the flying Archon (for which they need insanely pumped Coralhelm Commander) in that MU as a primary animation target.

While I agree that P.Emperion is good to Reanimate at low health, that is pretty much what I meant as "last ditch effort": he's good when you are at low life and need to stabilize somehow. As a first target, he seems never to be the best choice, and offensively, he lacks evasion completely, which makes him a defensive choice by definition.

I believe that P.Emperion is much worse now after New Phyrexia, since we are running 4x FoW, 4x Mental Misstep, even less basics than previously, more fetches, even less Thoughtseize than previously. I love the card, but he fits our current strategy poorly atm. I mean, even with Jin-Gitaxias out to compliment him, he negates most of our protection spells to keep Jin (or even himself) alive versus opposing topdecks! It's almost win-less rather than win-more in some instances, making him a fringe card. Also, Zoo (tough match-up) hits Emperion with Qasali Pridemage. We need something to improve our bad MUs rather than make our already good MUs even better. Merfolk often lose to fast Iona on blue, often to Archon by himself, sometimes even Inkwell can out-race them, and Elesh Norn can wipe their board & keep it clean if put into play early enough. We don't really need the extra P.Emperion in that MU.

As for Team America, I am not familiar with that MU because the deck is not at all present in my metagame. Which can explain my omission of P.Emperion's capabilities when listing the stats. But even if it would be great in that single MU, I still argue that it's a META call for SB instead of a general auto-include for SB.

EDIT: Went through some TA deck lists for reference. Seems like they have 0 outs versus Inkwell leviathan and typically only 4 outs to Blazing Archon, who does not prevent us from Forcing their response of Jace(4 mana = slow!)/Go For the Throat (the real threat for Archon). Archon even hits harder than their 1x Tombstalker/Vendilion Clique; P.Emperion can be blocked to death by Tarmogoyf + second creature. Also, they seem to have very little responses to a resolved Terastodon. The real problems in this MU would seem to be MD T2 Hymn to Tourach (Mental Misstep misses; Spell Pierce would have hit), SB Leyline of the Void to buy them time for higher mana cost responses to our strategy, and SB Llawan (if they have chosen to run some), which is their only out to Inkwell. But yes, unless they run Maelstrom Pulse (and many players seem to do that nowadays), it seems like their removal sucks versus big artifact creatures (Dismember + Go for the Throat + sometimes Smother). Also, it looks like TA's artifact hate of choice is Null Rod. That's good for us.

@ KevinTrudeau: Platinum Angel's 4/4 stats is not a lot. Also, the Angel is vulnerable to artifact removal and bounce (e.g. Hurkyl's Recall). Powerful effect, weak creature. Fast Jin is almost always better, and late-game I prefer P.Emperion because of no life loss from Reanimate and faster clock versus non-creature decks. But yes, it could be included in the list as an out versus opposing unorthodox win conditions, such as milling effects, e.g. PainterStone / HelmLine.

Realm Razer...what match is that really good at? Don't we win versus Lands.DEC with Inkwell already? And who would e.g. play Dark Depths and proceed to pass the turn? RR does take care of opposing Karakas, but still, a 4/2 body is not at all great. The opponent can pretty much ignore the existence of the creature, play new lands and continue to beat our face. While RR will simultaneously probably mana screw us and slow our next animation attempt. Am I missing something here?

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 08:25 PM

I don't know why you say Stormtide Leviathan is strictly inferior to Blazing Archon.

What would you rather have vs. Goblins? Vs. Elves? Vs. Zoo? Vs. any one of a hundred tribal decks that are not Merfolk or Fairies? I think Stormtide is better in all those matchups. It has a faster clock, is harder to block, and it takes three burn spells to kill, where as Archon can be killed with just two.

What am I missing?

Yes, it's worse against Merfolk, but it's better than Blazing Archon with most other matchups. It has better evasion than Blazing Archon and it swings for a lot more damage. It also kills a turn or two faster. And it's even pitchable to FoW.

I think it's a viable alternative to Blazing Archon if you don't anticipate Merfolk in the meta, and should definately be a META possibilty.

Karhumies

06-20-2011, 08:53 PM

I don't know why you say Stormtide Leviathan is strictly inferior to Blazing Archon.

That was a honest mistake on my part due to tiredness when re-reading the card through. I was focusing too much on the "does not prevent flyers or Lord of Atlantis + friends from attacking" -part, and not enough on the "all lands are now islands"-part. Yes, the extra P/T can make all the difference in the world when racing, and the evasion is indeed better than Archon's. And S.Leviathan even costs 1 life less to Reanimate. The recent inclusion of Mental Misstep may actually make this guy very playable, although Elesh Norn has a somewhat overlapping purpose in the SB. He's certainly an offense creature, and fits our current setup quite well IMO. I should playtest him more, I guess.

After all, Stormtide Leviathan is one of the very few creatures we have available who can fight through a resolved opposing Vampire Nighthawk by himself.

Rampart

06-20-2011, 09:29 PM

Well the big nock against S.Leviathan is that he week against the most popular deck in legacy right now (fish) and does not stop Emrakul, which IMHO is kind of important currently. I think those large two weekness of S. Leviathan gives B. Archon the edge as a catch all answer for most reanimator lists.

Doesn't the Sphinx plow right throught vampier nighthawk with first strike?

Also when you look at other aggro decks like, zoo, gobo's, and the like S.Leviathn and B. Archon in general is not your best option. I would believe that the Sphinx would be your number one target as there really isn't a better monster to race with them.

death

06-20-2011, 09:37 PM

Doesn't the Sphinx plow right throught vampier nighthawk with first strike?

deathtouch

Rampart

06-20-2011, 09:43 PM

but it doesn't do damage right?

death

06-20-2011, 09:50 PM

Sphinx is not pro black. OTOH it has first strike so it should kill the Nighthawk. You're right.

on the topic of S. Leviathan, it's there as a backup plan to Archon in case it gets exiled.

KevinTrudeau

06-20-2011, 09:56 PM

Nighthawk won't get the chance to deal damage to Sphinx because it will be gone after the first strike combat damage step.

@Karhumies- you're right about Razer, he doesn't seem that good. I just thought it could be a meta answer to Maze of Ith, Karakas, 43 Lands, and blue Counterspell decks, but Inky does all of that already. My bad. I figured Angel should be in the vague realm of possibilities for sideboard targets because of the reasons you mentioned, Grindstone and Helm of Obidience.

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 10:05 PM

That was a honest mistake on my part due to tiredness when re-reading the card through.

No problem. Excellent analysis on all the creatures btw. I certainly don't think the card should be maindeck like Blazing Archon, or even neccesarily sideboarded (I don't think there's room for him).

I can't wait for Garobidou's numbers to comeback. I think we're pretty close to coming up with the definitive version of the list, honestly, in some ways, the list we have now feels MORE powerful and more consistently faster than the list we had under Mystical Tutor!

I'm surprised at how bad Brainstorm seems to be though! Maybe the methodoligy isn't correct. It's important to consider both the three cards the Brainstorm reveals immediately, plus the shuffling them away aspect of it with fetchlands to get to you new cards that might have what you were looking for.

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 10:05 PM

Rampart

06-20-2011, 10:17 PM

You cannot always scratch the significance of a card like brainstorm which is sooo flexable in a deck by crunching statsicial info. I think its important to note the context of that data is to optimize slamming a monster into play by turn three, which in some match ups is not always the right play.

There are pleny of instances where you are brainstorming to hide cards, to set up you next couple of turns, to find proctection for your reanimate, to look for counter magic to stop hate or you opponite from comboing off, to shuffle trash away with a fetch land and also to find a missing combo piece.

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 10:20 PM

Yes, but there's been plenty of times where Brainstorm whiffs for me as well, finding me nothing of value. Brainstorm gives you the false illusion that your opening hand is better than it actually is, leading you to keep hands you wouldn't have otherwise, only to find that the Brainstorm DOESN'T find you that second land that you were looking for, or for that creature or discard outlet that you needed to make your hand perfect.

I really feel like perhaps 3 Brainstorm might be the optimal number. It allows us to play a 11/11/11/11 configuration, while still running 17 lands. And it ensures that we see Brainstorm plenty, but usually not in multiples in our opening 7.

But hell, I am very curious to see the numbers for a 12/12/12 build, with no Brainstorm, to see how this impacts the deck's goldfish numbers.

Alsan

06-20-2011, 10:28 PM

@ Alsan: Merfolk can block P.Emperion to death (no evasion)...

Merfolk often lose to fast Iona on blue, often to Archon by himself, sometimes even Inkwell can out-race them, and Elesh Norn can wipe their board & keep it clean if put into play early enough. We don't really need the extra P.Emperion in that MU.

As for Team America, I am not familiar with that MU because the deck is not at all present in my metagame. Which can explain my omission of P.Emperion's capabilities when listing the stats. But even if it would be great in that single MU, I still argue that it's a META call for SB instead of a general auto-include for SB.?

Now I strongly disagree. ¿Block to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time, wich is the key on that MU, time, because time makes daze and cursecatcher worse, time makes spell pierce useless, time makes Fow the only way they have to stop us, so none quick iona or elesh norn will hit the board, because they will stop us from reanimating they with all strenght they have. If the merfolk player begins, and has a cursecatcher + LOA + Reejerey hand, you'll be dead in turn 4, and no Iona or Elesh norn stops that. If they cut the Entomb (assuming that you have one) you'll never find the solution to that LOA, and you'll eventually die to him... wich emperion doesn't. And who want's to attack with emperion? He boughts time to you to find Sphinx or Leviathan (if you still play him)...

And TA is not a meta deck, I don't know where do you play but TA (or dark 3hold, or anything named X with fow + daze + hymn + kozilek + dark confidant + mental) and Jace control (Landstill UBG) are the most played decks everywhere, so if is not a META call everywhere...

Now that I'm on fire (xD), bonus: clark, Stormtide leviathan is worse than Blazing archon because He Does Not Stop Emrakul.

Rampart

06-20-2011, 10:35 PM

I totaly feel your pain there as sometimes brainstorms can trap you in a loose hand.

I guess what I am saying is that it is data is awesome (and it is really well put togeather) but its important to keep it in context.

Clark Kant

06-20-2011, 11:24 PM

Now I strongly disagree. ¿Block to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time, wich is the key on that MU, time, because time makes daze and cursecatcher worse, time makes spell pierce useless, time makes Fow the only way they have to stop us, so none quick iona or elesh norn will hit the board, because they will stop us from reanimating they with all strenght they have. If the merfolk player begins, and has a cursecatcher + LOA + Reejerey hand, you'll be dead in turn 4, and no Iona or Elesh norn stops that. If they cut the Entomb (assuming that you have one) you'll never find the solution to that LOA, and you'll eventually die to him... wich emperion doesn't. And who want's to attack with emperion? He boughts time to you to find Sphinx or Leviathan (if you still play him)...

And TA is not a meta deck, I don't know where do you play but TA (or dark 3hold, or anything named X with fow + daze + hymn + kozilek + dark confidant + mental) and Jace control (Landstill UBG) are the most played decks everywhere, so if is not a META call everywhere...

Now that I'm on fire (xD), bonus: clark, Stormtide leviathan is worse than Blazing archon because He Does Not Stop Emrakul.

Everything you said about Platinum Emporium is also true for Blazing Archon is it not. What role does P. Emporium serve that Blazing Archon already doesn't in that matchup? They both do the same thing.

No where did I say that Leviathan is better than Archon. I repeatedly said that it's worse generally and shouldn't be MD, but that it is better against numerous matchups (Merfolk and decks with Emrakul being the major exceptions).

Karhumies initially misread the card initially and categorized it as a bad choice that should NEVER see play. And I was just correcting him. He updated his post to reflect the fact that it's a meta choice.

TA and Landstill are not the most played decks everywhere. Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins are a hell of a lot more popular here.

Karhumies

06-21-2011, 04:01 AM

¿Block to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time

Against Merfolk, B.Archon has the added benefit of being a 4-turn clock (well, possibly a bit slower if they have Vial + Reejerey triggers) unless they have a heavily Lorded Coralhelm Commander -> stalemate. In that same MU, P.Emperion does not establish a clock: he merely achieves a stalemate because he will not be attacking through the defenses under any circumstances because the opponent is likely to have 8 power on the table.

One of the key things here is how many bounce effects does the particular Merfolk list run (SB), and whether we can stop a bounce effect or not. Supposing that they do run some bounce (Waterfront Bouncer, hardcasted Submerge or E.Truth), and can attempt to bounce P.Emperion, we can stop that with...FoW. Hardcasted. Can be theoretically done, but it is impossible in practice since we have been denied fetches ever since P.Emperion hit the table. B.Archon does not prevent Force support or attempt of counterwar. And Hardcasted FoW (Emperion) loses to just a single Daze, anyway.

S.Leviathan is crap in this particular MU compared to...well...anything, and not really even worth discussing. Which is pretty much exactly the reason why S.Leviathan does not see MD play.

IMO:
FAST (T2) Iona/Jin > B.Archon (fallback option) > P.Emperion (last ditch survival effort; never enough by himself) > Others > S.Leviathan
...with I.Leviathan and Iona being the best clock/support creatures after B.Archon/P.Emperion stabilizes.

Granted, FAST Iona/Jin assumes no god hand from the opponent. But this does not mean it does not happen. Opponent might also misplay in G1 to our advantage due to imperfect information. e.g. T1 us: fetch, go. Merfolk: T1 Cursecatcher -> respond with Entomb-> win the counterwar because they have no open mana for Spell Pierce, T2 Land, Animate Dead/Reanimate FTW (Exhume fails to Cursecatcher: 2cc Sorcery).

And yes, Dismember is an additional problem for Jin, which is why need to have SB creatures which are useful versus Merfolk. Preferably 3x, so we can replace all of them at once. Which is definitely support for SB P.Emperion (and possibly SB 2nd Iona & SB Terastodon -> kill your Islands), and anti-support for SB S.Leviathan.

No problem. Excellent analysis on all the creatures btw. I certainly don't think [S.Leviathan] should be maindeck like Blazing Archon, or even neccesarily sideboarded (I don't think there's room for him).

After some additional thinking, I believe that S.Leviathan is our most consistent 3-turn clock, with the added benefit of slowing down the opponent's racing WITH THE VERY NOTABLE EXCEPTION OF MERFOLK. His largest downside as a defending creature is inferiority to Archon (not stopping everything); his largest downside as an attacking creature before the release of NP was inferiority to Inkwell - mostly due to vulnerability to StoP. While the first problem still exists, the latter problem has been somewhat remedied by Mental Misstep, warranting more playtesting in the current meta IMO. But yes, it's very conditional whether you ever prefer to see S.Leviathan over Sphinx or Inkwell (3 turn clock with some holdback vs 4 turn clock with holdback in the form of lifelink and blocking vs 3 turn clock with Shroud without holdback).

I'm surprised at how bad Brainstorm seems to be though! Maybe the methodoligy isn't correct. It's important to consider both the three cards the Brainstorm reveals immediately, plus the shuffling them away aspect of it with fetchlands to get to you new cards that might have what you were looking for.

Important notes:
1) Brainstorm is good at digging up a 2nd Reanimation attempt, which does not show up in the figures, as the figures suppose the 1st attempt is successful
2) Brainstorm can protect our first Reanimation attempt from opposing discard effects, which does not show up in the figures, as the figures suppose the opponent does not run any

All-in strategy of redundancy in effects is of course the fastest and most consistent method for a single animation, assuming goldfish state. This is why monoblack animator mulligans less than BU animator. It is hard to measure the value of a utility card which fills many different roles, such as BS. For tutoring up the missing part of the first animation target, BS is not very great. But that's clearly not the only possible use of the card.