[Deck] Reanimator

[Frappa69]

today i've played a 42 players tournament in rome, winning. my list is not different from the others, except for the creatures i play...

9 fetch
4 u sea
2 island
2 swamp
2 hapless
3 jin
1 iona
1 elesh (mvp)
1 terastodon
1 archon
1 sphynx
4 brain
4 careful
4 will
4misstep
4 daze
4 exhume
4 reanimate
2 animate
4 entomb

side
3 seize
3 fluster
4 s&t
2 rod
3 stifle

elesh MD its so powerful... i dont know why many players dont play it MD... its quite a GG against rug, dredge,goblin, merfolk... and terastodon MD its another big cow, very usefull

6 rounds

1 Mono white 2-1
first i lost cause bad draws... second and third iona naming white its gg

2 dredge 2-1
first mull to 4 and lost xd... 2 and 3 elesh on second turn xd

3 stoneblade UWB 2-1
first lost by a long counterwar... 2 win by a terastodon that destroyed his jitte and 3 archont and gitaxian after i stiffled his karakas twice

4 reanimator 2-0
first win by triple daze and triple misstep... second iona naming black on second turn

5-6 round ID

top8 No rug 2-1
he was a pro player. first i lose cause he did 4 misstep , 2 will and 2 daze xd second i win by a sphynx after a long counterwar ( thanks so much,flusterstorm xd).. third i won after a long counterwar, a seize reveals a jace and i put elesh which desttroyed a vendiliona, a hierarch and an arbor... very very powerful, elesh MD

top4 enchantress 2-0

jin gitaxias on turn 2, twice, protected by a will xd

Top2 i splitted with him and i won 2 byes for the biggest tournament in italy...


stifle SB its so powerful... its the only answer to karakas
elesh MD its the most important creature after jin
terastodon MD its so huge against stoneblade

[kingtk3]

Frappa, I completely agree with you about Elesh: she should be Main Deck right now.
I play a build sliglty different from yours, without Brainstorm but with more creatures and 2 Lim-Dul's Vault. I'm not a fan of Brainstorm in this deck because:
- it slows the deck (our cows loose value during time so they should be landed asap)
- most times it doesn't find what we need. We all know that this deck need tutor, and without Mystical I found myself content with LDV and increasing the treat density

I'm also from Italy and I think that reanimator right now is one of the best deck in our meta. The only change I would make to your side is
-2 null rod, +2 pithing needle: since you already have stifle for tormods' and relics pithing should help you against karakas too
-2 S&T (or -1 seize -1 Flusterstorm), +2 Echoing Truth because I feel better having access to a catch all answer

I also have a question: should your Flusterstorm been spellpierce would have heavily mattered? I don't have access to FS (price aside I don't find them) and I'm looking for a solid alternative (Spellpierce counter artifacts too).

Greetings.

[markitus]

Hey guys,

Do you think it would make sense to play X-4 Ponders and no Brainstorms?

Ponder seems a very good T1 play, whereas Brainstorm is more a T2 play (which means T3 reanimation or later...). However, I haven't seen any lists playing Ponders without Brainstorms...

Thanks!

[Sturtzilla]

I also have a question: should your Flusterstorm been spellpierce would have heavily mattered? I don't have access to FS (price aside I don't find them) and I'm looking for a solid alternative (Spellpierce counter artifacts too).

I recently tweaked my sideboard from:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle
2 Show and Tell
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon

to:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Pierce
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle
2 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon

The first board was what I ran at SCG Pittsburgh. The Flusterstorms were included as a means to deal with Hive Mind combo (which had been seeing a good amount of play at the top tables, predominantly because people hadn't figured out how to interact with it). It is a multidimensional counter and worked great at forcing counters under Chalice of the Void set at 1. I don't really think that Flusterstorm is that great against Storm (the other match up I had considered it for), as they will either make you discard it or will use a silence effect on you the turn they are going off. With those considerations in mind, I took the Flusterstorms out of my 75. Running Spell Pierce has been pretty good so far. It helps to counter the key pieces in the two match ups listed above (although I don't think Hive Mind is getting much love these days), is a great substitution for Daze when you are on the draw, and adds a solid counter for graveyard hate.

I also exchanged the maindecked Inkwell for the sideboarded Jin. I have been unimpressed with Inkwell's power as of late. He hasn't won a game for me on the solo for about 6 months. So I figured a 4th Jin would be better, as he does in fact win games (I have only lost one [yes, one] game after a resolved a Jin). Inky is still great in some situations but lately Jin is just the go-to creature and, in my mind there is no reason to take a chance on being forced to reanimate a subpar pick over him.

On a separate note, why are people still running Empyrial Archangel? I tested this creature out for a short period of time, but it was my conclusion that both Elesh and especially Archon just trump this angel. I was never impressed with her impact against Zoo (which was where she was suppose to rock, or any other match up really). Creatures attack and then burn always finishes her off versus Zoo. She has a neat effect but I don't think it was quite enough. Any help on this issue would be appreciated.

Lastly, I would appreciate any thoughts or playtesting results on Angel of Despair. She has been showing up here and there lately. I am kind of curious about her. In theory I think she could be pretty good, but I haven't tested her out yet.

[KevinTrudeau]

I also exchanged the maindecked Inkwell for the sideboarded Jin. I have been unimpressed with Inkwell's power as of late. He hasn't won a game for me on the solo for about 6 months. So I figured a 4th Jin would be better, as he does in fact win games (I have only lost one [yes, a single game] game after a resolved a Jin). Inky is still great in some situations but lately Jin is just the go-to creature and, in my mind there is no reason to take a chance on being forced to reanimate a subpar pick over him.

I've been coming to the exact same conclusion as well- almost every time I opened a hand with Careful Study and Inkwell Leviathan, I always wished it were a Jin-Gitaxias. Inkwell Leviathan has just not been up to snuff since the demise of Counterbalance. If I play in a weekly tonight, I'm gonna definitely move up to a full set of JGCA in the main, with Inky manning the side. I'm not completely sure about Elesh being a maindeckable target yet (though I'm slowly getting to that point), so I think I'm just gonna cut the second Iona for Inky, the reasoning being I'll now have the same number of anti-combo targets in the seventy-five with a fourth JGCA, and have a sideboard target palette of:

1 Terastodon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Edit: Just got back from that tournament I was talking about. I went 4-0-1, beating Burn (2-1), UWr Stoneforge (2-1), BW (2-0), and NO RUG (2-0). Despite realizing I made a major mistake at least once in every round [auto-scooping to Burn after he cast Ravenous Trap when he couldn't actually cast it because I'd only binned two cards so far during that turn, giving UWr Stoneforge JtMS as an out when I named white with Iona even though I had an uncounterable Misstep for the Swords in his hand (thankfully, he didn't draw it), making a subpar attack with Jin-Gitaxias against BW (thankfully, it didn't end up mattering), and giving NO RUG an extra draw step after accidentally putting a Hapless Researcher that would have binned an Exhumable Sphinx second from the top off an EOT Brainstorm(thankfully, he drew a land)], I was able to overcome them due to the deck's raw power; while Reanimator's not currently defined as tier one, it certainly feels like it. Some observations from tonight:

-Running only two basics was the bee's knees.
-The fourth Jin was exponentially better than Inkwell would have been. Never looking back on that decision.
-Quad Brainstorms were excellent all night.
-Elesh Norn kind of reaffirmed itself as a strict sideboard card to me.
-The three boarded Thoughtseize were pretty excellent.
-The decklist overall felt really, really tight, except for the sideboard selection of creatures (though they did well enough), and Null Rod. Null Rod should probably be something else.

For reference, since I haven't posted my list in a while, the list I ran was:

1 Scalding Tarn (will be an Underground Sea in the near future)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Entomb
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
1 Hapless Researcher

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[Anselm]

I've been testing the deck a bit, and I'm not really satisfied with the stoneblade matchup. As that's a really popular deck, I thought about using some thoughtseizes main. It seems to me that I only really lose to too much counters; everything else is quite simple to beat (unless I mulligan myself into oblivion). I was using the following configuration:
7 creatures
4 entomb
10 reanimate
11 counters
4 brainstorm
2 hapless, 4 study
18 land

I was thinking maybe -1 daze, -1 brainstorm, -1 land, +3 thoughtseize, and then keeping the daze (when on the play) and brainstorm (vs pretty much everything when you sb a lot, and obv vs discard) in the sb. Or maybe cutting an animate dead. Sometimes, vs counterspells, you draw multiple copies of the wrong combo piece, and then they counter everything of the other (say, you draw a lot of reanimation effects and they counter the discard outlets and entombs). More disruption would be nice then.

Also, on an unrelated note, I saw some lists with a Sheoldred in the sideboard that I just don't get. In which situation would you want that as your primary reanimation target?

[Sturtzilla]

-The fourth Jin was exponentially better than Inkwell would have been. Never looking back on that decision.

I have been thinking the same thing. I have been liking the consistency I am seeing off of Careful Studies and Hapless Researcher sacrifices. Sorry, Inky, but the board it is.



-Elesh Norn kind of reaffirmed itself as a strict sideboard card to me.


I've been testing the deck a bit, and I'm not really satisfied with the stoneblade matchup.

I have been running Elesh as a one of in the main and I have been linking it. First off, it my not be your first target versus Zoo, but it is great in that match up. She is solid in the Stone Blade match up if you are fast enough. She kills SFM and makes Batterskull smaller and easier to deal with. She is also great against nearly any tribal plan. Worst case scenario, you get her out post Jin and he becomes a 7/6 beater. Not to mention she makes 3/3 Hapless Researchers, which is kinda cute but sometimes very effective. Overall I think she is a better choice than Empyrial Archangel and she gives you a bit more versatility than doubling up on Sphinx or Iona.

[KevinTrudeau]

Overall I think she is a better choice than Empyrial Archangel and she gives you a bit more versatility than doubling up on Sphinx or Iona.

As much as I've loved both Sphinxes, you're probably right in that it's correct to replace the second one with an Elesh Norn; it opens up a slot in the board and gives the deck an increased "tool box" feel with Jin as the bread-and-butter target, without messing with the anti-creature deck reanimation target ratios. The +2/+2 to our guys, as you pointed out, I've actually found to be quite relelvant. I'm definitely gonna try it out, probably moving that second Iona back into Elesh's board slot.

[Anselm]

Empyrial Archangel doesn't seem necessary at all. Aganist zoo, it just dies if they have any sort of board, and it isn't threatening enough against anything at all. I won't play it at all, using an inky in the sb when you need shroud.

Also, about stoneblade, it's not really a lack of good reanimation targets that's the problem, it's not getting any reanimation to resolve at all. I want every maindeck creature to be threatening to any deck, thus no Elesh Norn or Blazing Archon main. My current setup will be 4 Jin, 1 Sphinx, 1 Iona, 1 Terastodon, with Sphinx, Archon, Inky, Elesh Norn in the sb.

[nastirth]

I'm having the same problem as anselm, specially online where the hate is big and there are a lot of control decks (i even got one oppo with UW/Stoneblade that sb'ed leylines!).

For the last week I built a different version trying to battle the control decks, and it's working nicely, but needs some more testing.

4 entomb
4 study

4 reanimate
4 animate dead

4 fow
4 misstep
4 duress (don't have thoughtseizes, but against control duress is probably better anyway)
2 hymn to tourach

4 brainstorm

8 creatures (3 jin, 1 ink, 1 blazing, 1 elesh, 1 sphinx, 1 iona)

18 land

sideboard
3 exhume
2 hapless
3 echoing truth
3 daze
4 creatures (iona, angel despair/terastodon, empyrial arch, platinum angel)

The deck is slower, but the discard package is excellent against control decks. With this version quad brainstorms are needed to manipulate the deck. Right now I prefer animate dead over exhume, because exhumes were sometimes awkward when the oppo had some stupid creature in his grave, like phyrexian metamorph (which, along with its alternates, is becoming very popular).

The sideboard allows me to change the deck to the #2 garobidou's version which i really like against non-control decks. With the discard package and echoing truth the deck can handle all the gy hate. The only threat hard to handle is karakas, and that's why I have archangel too - can't be karak'd, ith'd or stp'd, 4 turn clock, and absorbs most decks damage).

With this version I prefer to draw in the first game, to have another way to discard and get an extra card (since I'm playing controlish at the beginning). After sb it will depend on the deck I'm facing.

This is just experimental right now, but the fields I play are becoming very control oriented, and that pesky stoneforge is a really annoying dude.


@anselm
I really think you should play at least arkon or elesh mainboard. They are nuts against a couple of decks, and a good out to have in some situations.

[Anselm]

Allow me to speculate for a moment.

If we start to add maindeck discard (and I'm not talking about hymns, which I don't like, but thoughtseize -- it's better than duress because of spellstutter sprite, by the way), then the deck is starting to become a turn 3 deck instead of a turn 2 deck. Then, how about trying out Lim-Dûl's Vault again for increased consistency? First turn thoughtseize, second turn vault, third turn reanimate what you want with protection isn't so bad. We gain the ability to play more 1-ofs and stronger sideboard plans. We could also try some number of lotus petals to alleviate that the first turn isn't for binning a guy. Something like this, maybe:

4 thoughtseize
4 fow
4 mm

4 entomb
4 study

4 brainstorm
3 vault

3 jin
1 iona
1 sphinx
1 archon

4 reanimate
3 exhume
1 animate dead
1 show and tell

18 land (i'm tempted to try out -1 land, -1 brainstorm, +2 lotus petal here).

Maybe a fourth vault, but you really don't want to see multiples.

The sideboard could contain some of the usual stuff, but really only 1 of most things. Also you could have a couple exhume/animate dead, a couple hapless researchers and a couple dazes, along with the additional creatures, if you want to board into the classic version against the decks where it's good enough, as there's certainly room.

Not sure I'll test with the vaults, probably I'll go for just some thoughtseizes instead of a brainstorm and a daze, but I thought it's an interesting possibility.

[dahcmai]

Is it just me or is Daze just really annoying to have in this deck? I ended up pulling them and going a little more redundant. I went with 2 Strategic Planning and 1 more animate Dead. I'll let you know how it works out. It just kept being my first choice to board out and that's usually my sign to yank a card despite how good it is game 1.


Also, I ended up putting one Phantasmal Image in the board just for the random occasions when someone can get a quick Projo on you. No Rug isn't much of a contest, but I like sealing the deal against decks that are played a ton. Also, I added 1 tower of the Magistrate to the main. Kept running into Batterskulls with Jittes that could actually stand a chance vs fatties. That's annoying so I wanted an out. It works quite well.

[Alsan]

Those cards are not part of the reanimator engine (and without Daze, you are not enough protected).

Sorry, but I've seen the decklists that you guys play at the other side of the world, and I don't understand why are you still playing Empyrial archangel and Inkwell leviathan (Sturtzilla realized now) and not playing Blazing Archon or Stormtide leviathan. Yes, Elesh norn is awesome against tribal decks or stoneforge. They don't race Sphinx, nor Leviathan, nor Archon. And, and this is more important than anything, Archon and Stormtide stops Batterskull, KotR, Progenitus (and Emrakul). I don't see wich deck escapes this creature split:

4 JGCA
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 Sphinx of steel and wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Stormtide leviathan

And against swords, 5 Fows + 4 missteps.

[defector]

I think that Inkwell is too strong against U/W control to let go of. Stormtide doesn't stop Emrakul, he flies over and nukes your board. I think Archon is definitely better than Empyrial Archangel. The deck has ten great creatures for a max of eight slots. I think beyond the three Jin main you're really metagaming what you think the best toolbox of silver bullets is going to be.

[nastirth]

@Anselm
I agree with you on LDV. In fact, my fast build runned 2 LDV instead of the 2 brainstorms. This weekend I replaced the 2 hymns for 2 LDV and I liked it. On the other hand I'm not sure about thoughtseize, because of the life loss. Many times we have to pay 2 life to MM, and with thoughtseize also costing 2 life, it becomes very costly to reanimate. I played about 50 games and there was only one time where thoughtseize (instead of duress) could make things easier - my oppo had faerie macabre in hand - but I won the game anyway. On the contrary, the life I'd loose if I were playing thoughtseize would cost me a couple of games. So, I'm still a bit undecided about this question.

@Alsan
Although I'm pretty near you (PT), I was still playing with inkwell and archangel. :wink:
On inkwell I must agree, because he comes out on every game, and I will replace it for Archangel. And why: archangel is great in the control matchup. It can't be karaka'd, stp'd, terrorized, terminated, jace'd, it is a permanent fog, and it beats only one turn slower than inkwell. Probably people think about it against aggro decks, but I think it really shines against control decks, where inkwell sometimes fails because if you reanimate it you can loose the race if your opponent already has a creature in play.
About Elesh Norn, I'm playing it mainboard, and it's been serving me well, specially against dredge (archon can't handle dredge), merfolk and goblins.
Right now my creature base is: 3 jin, iona, sphinx, archon, elesh and archangel.

[Alsan]

@Nastirth: (I hope to see you in the Eternal Weekend on Madrid this month ;D, I'm gonna ID top8 again for sure, haha) Why Archon doesn't stops Ichorid? You can let everything resolves, except the Dread return that revives his fattie. And don't tell me "they have therapy": you have MM, Daze and Fow, all hard counters against a deck with no mana. Every time you are playing against control you want to reanimate JGCA, 'cause he wins all matches (if he had cast Jace, you are almost dead, turn 4 or turn X). I play 4 JGCA 'cause I want to maximize the use of my Careful and Hapless, discarding always him.

@ Deflector: I said that stormtide AND archon stops a lot of suposed GG menaces (last pages are full of questions of "how beat RUG", pex.) If emrakul is on board, if you don't do an alpha strike that kills him, you have to reanimate every turn, but any of the 2 leviathans can race him.

[nastirth]

@Alsan
I didn't know about that tournament! Awesome one! I don't know if I'll able to go in such short notice. But I already have my plane ticket to Amsterdam :smile:
As for dredge, sometimes Archon is not enough, because you need to have enough counters which won't happen every time. With elesh they just scoop.
As for control, of course jin is the best creature, but archangel is very good if you don't have protection for jin. I'll put a 4th Jin in sb to complete the set against control decks, but right now I'm happy with my starting 8.
I'm looking forward to read your "road to the top8" report! :tongue:

[dahcmai]

I like Stormtide because well, it's frigging Large Mouth Bass. I don't like him because he allows Merfolk and Emrakul to go through. He ended up hitting the rare box.

Empyrial stayed solely due to her Shroud and a new idea I am testing out. I added one Mimeoplasm to use as a tester, a tester so don't start bashing yet. He seemed like an interesting idea to get monstrous Shrouded monster Angels. I was going to add a touch of Green for Grip and a singleton Dryad Arbor in the board so it fit. I was only going to add back my fifth basic anyway so it didn't hurt my mana at all.

Inkwell is in my board, but I almost never board him in. UW is about the only reason to bother. JG usually just does the trick for me.

Archon is in my board. Elesh is in the main and does the job most of the time.

My only debatable slot is Sheodred and Phantasmal Image. They are exclusively for Projo and Emrakul really, but Archon does the job decently. Not sure if I even want those two yet.

[alphastryk]

I played Reanimator this past weekend at SCG Atlanta, finishing at 7-2 in 10th place.

My list for this can be found here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40715).

To explain a few of the stranger choices, the Darkslick Shores should be a 4th Underground Sea. I wanted another non-fetchland for some of the longer games and figured I could avoid buying the last sea, forgetting about daze when I did so. Fortunately, it never came up during the tournament. The 2 nonstandard sideboard cards I'm sure you're wondering about at the Phantasmal Image and the Mindbreak Trap. The trap was to win counter wars, but in retrospect I would rather have another Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce. The image is to kill progenitus against NO RUG, and to help out in the mirror match.

I'll do my best to reconstruct what happened round by round from my notes:

-- Round 1 vs. Stoneblade (Thopter Foundry) --

I lost a long game one where Jin-Gitaxias's draw 7 found me no protection for him, and I couldn't setup another creature before his Batterskull killed me.

Game 2 I had a fast Jin,drew 7 but he was able to swords it after I attacked once. I then reanimated Iona and he didn't find anything relevant. He played a Crucible of Worlds in this game before discarding to Jin, which mad me wonder how he boarded, as crucible seems very bad in this match.

Game 3 I had a turn 2 Jin with protection and he wasn't able to get much of anything going.

1-0

-- Round 2 vs. Team America --

Game one he led off by stifling and wasting my lands to keep me from completing the combo, but I was land heavy and both careful study and brainstorm drew enough lands to lock him out, and it looked like he drew all lands the whole game.

Game 2 I had a turn 2 Jin with protection and forced his edict after taking 3 from goyf, but was able to pull the win out at 1 life through his diabolic edict, leaving my shiny new sphinx of the steel wind back to block tarmogoyf. In retrospect, I shouldn't have attacked with Jin this turn, as I was tapped out and could not counter another edict if he had it, but he didn't, so its on to round 3.

2-0

-- Round 3 vs. Stoneblade (Faeries) --

Game 1 was a long game where I cantripped for a bit to find all of the pieces, and was unable to stop his vendillion clique from cycling the last piece I needed. We fought a counter war over me reanimating his clique after getting Elesh Norn to kill it (norn got pathed). I got the clique and cycled a dead card from my hand as his hand was empty following the counter war. He had another clique after that, but I had a sphinx to lock the game up.

Game 2 I lost the counter war over his surgical extraction, and he removed all of my Jin-Gitaxias from my deck. I kept digging for an answer, and was able to Angel of Despair his batterskull but I lost the angel to a path. He finally found a spellstutter sprite to beat me down from 5, and we were on to game 3.

Game 3, He played a Relic on turn one, but tapped out to do so, and entomb + reanimate Jin got the job done.

3-0

-- Round 4 vs. Dredge (LED) --

I was on the play for game 1, and my first turn careful study discared Elesh Norn and Jin-Gitaxias. When he didn't therapy me, I got norn and he conceded after thinking for a few seconds.

Game 2 he opened with a Leyline of the Void, which I didn't expect. I didn't board in Show and tell, and didn't have an Echoing truth in my hand at the time. Things worked out for me though, because his only discard outlet was to therapy himself turn 1, giving me perfect information. His turn 2 dredge milled his Iona, which I promptly reanimated on my next turn, naming blue for the chain of vapor in his hand. 3 turns later, it was over.

4-0

-- Round 5 vs. Bant --

He was able to swords my Jin gitaxias, but only had noble heirarch to attack with. He made a Batterskull soon after, and attacked me to 14 with it (exalted). I don't remember what target I got at this point, maybe Empyrial Archangel, but he scooped soon afterwards.

Game 2 He plays a heirarch and passes. He attempts to surgical extraction the angel of despair I discarded to careful study in response to my thoughtseize, which I misstep. He reveals Jace, Jace, Stp, Path, Phyrexian metamorph. I take StP, as I have another jmisstep for his path. I get the angel back and kill his heirach to keep him off mana for metamorph and blue for jace. He doesnt draw a 3rd land to metamorph until he is at 2, which he plays for fun, paying 2 life.

5-0

-- Round 6 vs. Zoo (Cat Sligh) --

Game 1 I have a choice of targets with entomb after cantripping for 2 turns, and I choose to get Elesh Norn to try to wipe out his 3 Nactyls, Grim lavamancer and Goblin Guide. This was a greedy mistake on my part, and I should have just gotten the sphinz and hoped he didn't find a path. He had the path, and I had to force it to keep Norn anyways, but was unable to gain life and got burned out of the game.

Game 2 I won a close game where I was at 3 life and he had a sylvan library in play and I just had a blazing archon, so he was trying to burn me out. fortunately I ripped the entomb to find an empyrial archangel to complete the lock, and he scooped.

Game 3 went long, with my sphinx getting pathed and him resolving sylvan library again. I was forced to reanimate the blazing archon I had found with reanimate, but this put me to 3, and he had the bolt.

I was tilting pretty hard after losing this match, becauseI knew I had punted game 1.

5-1

--Round 7 vs. Esper Stoneblade --

I won a long involved game one, having Jin but being not being able to block his Batterskull until I found a Sphinx, after which I was finally able to close it out.

Game 2 I kept a 1-lander with a show and tell, Jin, a careful study and a brainstorm. My brainstorm failed to find any more lands, and I sat there doing nothing relevant for a while after getting Jin in play, he wasted my second land and hardcast a leyline and then a jace. I brainstormed into no more lands, blanked for a few more turns, and lost the counter war at the end when he had jace (fatesealing me), 2x dark confidant and a sword of feast and famine. I was entoming random cards to shuffle every time he left a card with jace, but I couldn't get there. This game took a long time, so I wuickly added the 3rd show and tell and second echoing truth for game 3. I lost game 3 to his better draw after mulling, and that was it.

5-2

-- Round 8 vs. MonoBlue Control (Athens Blue) --

My opponent led on island pass, and he misstepped my entomb at the end of his turn. I misstepped back, got Jin gitaxias and had an animate dead and more counterspells than him. He did get a shackles and an o-stone in play before I had enough counters, and even managed to steal muy later elesh norn with shackles at one point. I found angel of despair, blew up the shackles and jin swung in for 7, putting him to 10. He found another land and popped the o-stone on his turn to wipe my board. I get back the angel and blow up a land to minimize his outs. He was at 2 life and drew his card before conceding.

In game 2 I kept a weak hand with swamp as my only land, but I had misstep, brainstorm, entomb, reanimate, force, and a pithing needle. I entombed iona, but could not resolve the reanimate. I drew the other pithing needle, and started playing them out. The first named o-stone, the second relic (this may have been wrong). I finally found a blue land to ponder, which got misstepped. I then drew the exhume to get Iona and lock him out of the game.

6-2

I checked standings after this round, and it looked like I was locked out of Top8, as there would be at least 8 22 pointers, and I could only get to 21 points, so I was playing for top16.

-- Round 9 vs. Death and Taxes --

My oppnent won the die roll and led on wastelnd, vial. debated forcing it, putting him on a loose merfolk keep, but decided I couldn't afford to pitch a cantrip to do so. He followed with a plains, and I realized what he was playing, getting worried, as they often have multiple karakas, along with jotun grunt and stonecloaker. I got a sphinx in play and beat him down with it.

In game 2, I never found the second half of the combo after cantripping and conceded after a bad brainstorm showed nothing. I countered 2 enlightened tutors in the game, knowing he would be finding a wheel of sun and moon or a relic, but never had anything.

Game 3 he mulliganed and found a karakas, forcing me to get the sphinx again instead of the Jin I had planned to go with (I had discarded it to careful study on my turn 1). Unfortunately for him, his karakas was his only white source, and after he tapped it to try to path my sphinx, which I had the counter for he couldn't stop me from drawing 7 with Jin, locking up the game.

7-3, 10th place overall.

I felt very good about the deck all day, and will be playing something similar at the next SCG Open I can attend if the metagame hasn't shifted significantly.

[nastirth]

@kevin and alphastryk

Congrats on your results! I really would like to read about your sideboarding strategies. :smile:

[We're on DTB section now. Let's hope that doesn't increase the number of metamorphs around. Really nasty dudes. :mad:]

[KevinTrudeau]

I've been really liking the 4 Jin, toolbox approach. Elesh Norn has been excellent in allowing Jin to get out of awkward board situations that he would sometimes find himself in against, like Zoo. I haven't tested out Stormtide Leviathan in that slot as Aslan has repeatedly suggested, and while I have my reservations in that Blazing Archon is already in the deck does a better defensive job, I'll give it a go for a short while and see how it does.


@kevin and alphastryk

Congrats on your results! I really would like to read about your sideboarding strategies. :smile:

[We're on DTB section now. Let's hope that doesn't increase the number of metamorphs around. Really nasty dudes. :mad:]

My general template for boarding on the draw after winning game one:

-X match-specific subpar reanimation targets (Blazing Archon against High Tide, for example)
-1 Hapless Researcher
-~2 Reanimation spells (it's usually Animate Dead, but it really depends on whether you're expecting to play a slower game against control, in which I'd consider taking out a Reanimate or two, or subpar match-specific cards in comparison to others, like Exhume going out instead of AD against Merfolk because Cursecatcher can't counter AD)
-3 Daze

for:

+X adequate reanimation targets
+2 Show and Tell
+~5 apt disruption/countermeasures against opponent's disruption (usually Thoughtseize and a way around grave-hate, such as Pithing Needle or Echoing Truth)

Edit: I played a lot tighter in this week's Legacy tournament, but only went 2-2, losing to UWr Stoneblade (1-2), beating Zoo (2-1) and NO RUG (2-1), and then losing to Rock (1-2). The only real mistake I made was not boarding in Inkwell Leviathan against Rock. Some thoughts, observations, etc.:

-Elesh Norn main was actually quite good. Not totally sure if she's better than another Blazing Archon-type effect such as Stormtide Leviathan as there was only one case where she was clearly superior, but I'm leaning towards her staying. I am however completely sold on only having one Sphinx in the main and replacing that slot with another anti-creature target to increase variety.
-With how prevalent Mental Misstep/FoW/Brainstorm decks have been, Brainstorm has been incredibly crucial. I highly recommend trying out four, as they've been a lifesaver involving games where you need to craft a perfect hand, as the fundamental turn will usually have a total of three-six pieces of countermagic and/or disruption employed between both players on average.
-Running only two basics was still the bee's knees.
-I finally completed my set of Lion's Eye Diamond!
-Rock seems like a very, very difficult matchup postboard with Extirpates, Knights, Vindicates, Swords, Karakas, Maze, etc. I think the two slots currently occupied by Null Rod in the board should probably go towards it, but I haven't decided on what yet.

Speaking of the Rock matchup, a difficult scenario came up, and I'd like to pose a similar, hypothetical situation to gather some of your opinions concerning it:

After winning game one and losing game two, you're on the play for game three against Rock. Opp. mulligans to six, while you go to five. You keep a hand of Jin, Entomb, two fetchlands, and Exhume. You play a land and pass. Opp. plays a basic Swamp and passes back. Fearful of Extirpate (you know they're playing four), you decide to sit back on Entomb instead of going all-in right then and there. You draw a second Entomb on your turn, and pass back. Opp. plays an inconsequential second land, we'll say a basic Forest, and ends their turn. To dodge Extirpate, utilize your mana in a most efficient manner since you don't know for sure if you'll draw a third land to potentially make better use of Entomb (such as by fetching up a weaker target EOT, dropping your third land, opp. Extirpating said weaker target, and then Entombing again before Exhume resolves for a better target), and speed out a fatty before the opponent can draw and cast more potential answers, you fetch twice and cast both Entombs EOT. What two reanimation targets do you fetch up? They can be any of the potential ones in your 75 since this is game three. Keep in mind, this is Rock you're facing; they've got Knight of the Reliquary mana up next turn, and can fetch up Maze of Ith or Karakas during their subsequent turn (or simply raw dog them out), in addition to possibly having Phyrexian Metamorph, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, etc. What would you do if that Swamp were a Scrubland instead? Would you forgo the plan altogether? Get different targets? Thanks, I'd really like to know your opinions on this matter.

[nastirth]

@Kevin

For Swamp/Other I'd go for Jin and Empyrial Archangel. Either of them are awesome in the matchup. Most likely he'll extirpate jin, unless he has karakas already in hand, but Archangel puts him on a 4 turn clock, and it's very difficult for him to kill it or race it in that situation. With scrubland things become tougher because he may have stp to play before jin triggers. If you can sense a stp comming, you may go for iona (@white) and archangel maybe. Iona@white will stop knight, vindicate and stp and puts him on a 3 turn clock. Agaisnt metamorph there's nothing you can do except having FoW. That's one of the reasons I'm playing AD over exhume - if a metamorph goes to the grave, exhume becomes a dead card. However, against rock exhume will be better if he packs pernicious deed.

I agree with you on the brainstorm argument. The fast version of the deck is very good against decks with no disruption, but those are very rare right now. I went radical and built a very control oriented version, but some matchups against fast decks become much more difficult. So, last wednesday I packed a version very similar to yours on my weekly real life tournament to see how a middle term version would perform.

Here's the report:

@Forum

At this week's real life tournament I tried to play a list very similar to kevin's. His decklist falls between my speed deck and my slower one. I wanted to see how that compromise would work both ways. I packed daze mainboard and always choosed to play when possible.

Decklist
4 Entomb, 4 Careful Study, 1 Hapless Researcher
4 Reanimate, 4 Animate Dead, 2 Exhume
4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
8 Creatures (3 Jin, 1 Iona, 1 Sphinx, 1 Archon, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Empyrial Archangel)
18 Lands

Sideboard
3 Duress (didn't receive my thoughtseizes yet)
3 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
2 Null Rod
5 Creatures (1 Iona, 1 Terastodon, 1 Inkwell, 1 Stormtide Leviathan, 1 Platinum Angel)

R1 - BW Dead Guy Ale (0-2)
Game 1, play: First hand was 2x FoW, MM, An.Dead, Sphinx, Archon, Fetch. Since I was on the play I mulliganed, got a very nice hand but with no lands. I was tempted to keep it because I only needed one land to "bee's knees" but throwed it back, got no lands again, and finally kept: usea, mm, animate dead, careful study. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a creature and got beaten pretty easy.
Game 2, play: First hand was 5 lands, entomb and FoW, sent back and got fetch, mm x2, iona and ad x2, kept this hand, but found no discard outlet, while my mm's looked shamely whenever my oppo played a tidehollow sculler.

Sideboard
-3 daze, -2 animate dead, -1 hapless
+2 duress, +2 echoing truth, +2 s&t

R2 - WW (2-1)
Game 1, play: 2nd turn jin, and 3rd turn elesh norn.
Game 2, draw: Made a mistake here. I was going to reanimate iona@white so I was not worried about stp, and wasted a mental misstep on something irrelevant. Then when I tried to reanimate Iona, I got phyrexian extracted, and couldn't recover in time. Lesson learned.
Game 3, play: 1st turn MM@ Vial, 2nd turn reanimate Iona@white, with FoW backup for extraction. Perfect hand.

Sideboard
-3 daze, -1 hapless, -1 animate dead, -1 sphinx
+3 echoing truth, +2 s&t, +1 iona

R3 - MUC (2-0)
Game 1, play: Entombed Jin at his eot and he didn't counter. So no MM in hand. I was prepared to fight over my animate dead since probably he had spell snare, but I drew a reanimate and he was forced to play FoW, for which I also had a FoW of my own and he scooped right there.
Game 2, draw: He plays first turn relic, I mm, he FoW's, I let FoW resolve, and mm again the relic. I careful study a Iona but couldn't find a reanimation spell . We play draw go for a while, and when I drew the reanimate I already had protection, so I reanimated, he mm's, I mm, he FoWs and I FoW, and he scoops.

Sideboard
-3 daze, -2 animate dead, -1 hapless, -1 archon, -1 sphinx, -1 elesh
+3 duress, +2 s&t, +2 echoing truth, +1 iona, +1 inkwell

R4 - BR Cascade (2-0)
Game 1: Got Jin, and was able to always draw some counter for his cascade business.
Game 2: Had a slow hand with s&t and a couple of counters to buy me time. When I s&t jin his look was priceless as he then showed me the 2 faeries macabre and extirpate he had in hand. Welcome back s&t! :)

Sideboard
-1 hapless, -2 animate dead, -1 sphinx, -1 archangel
+2 s&t, +2 echoing truth, +1 iona

Except the first round where my hands sucked, the deck performed very nice. Null rods will leave the sb and will be replaced for 2 pithing needles, because needles can handle faerie macabre and karakas (among other things), and Elesh Norn is already gg against affinity. I'm not sure about Show and Tell yet. I'm still a bit traumatized from the last s&t experiences that culminated in a total humiliation when my s&t'd angel of despair met a protean hulk. :) I'm also not very confortable about relying on only 4 brainstorms to manipulate the deck in order to s&t properly.

I'm still tottaly undecided on how to play game 1. Play (packing daze main) and maximizing an early reanimation possibility or draw (packing thoughtseize and/or ponder/ldv) and maximizing the protection/manipulation, and also the keepable hands (it's very annoying, when playing, looking at a hand with creature+reanimation but without discard outlets).

[defector]

Congrats on a great finish Alphastryk! I agree with your assessment of the sideboard, it seems like everyone knows how play around daze game 2-3. Anyway, great job on a great finish, I am taking my version of ReAnimator to Indy on Oct 2. I have a question for you. Our lists are almost identical except that I run 3 hapless researcher, no ponder and an 8 man plan maindeck(Jin X3, Angel X1, Sphinx X1, Archon X1, Iona X1, Elesh X1). Do you prefer the ponder route? I played that version for a while and felt that the deck was at too high a risk of just gold fishing into oblivion where hapless could give me a block and a discard outlet. What are your thoughts on the matter?
thanks and well done!
defector

[Alsan]

@Kevin

Agaisnt metamorph there's nothing you can do except having FoW. That's one of the reasons I'm playing AD over exhume - if a metamorph goes to the grave, exhume becomes a dead card.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Exhume works as Show and tell works, and if metamorph is put onto the battlefield with any of those spells, it won't be able to copy the other creature entering the battlefield at the same time, so it's not a dead card.

[Demonic_Attorney]

I played Reanimator this past weekend at SCG Atlanta, finishing at 7-2 in 10th place.

My list for this can be found here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40715).



Congrats on the finish! We both know without at least one pivotal mistake you might have topped 8!

Any ways, just one thing in relation to constructive criticism, Angel of Despair and main deck at that, really? It is manifestly weak when you consider the voluminous amount of other viable options. I can easily name 4-5 creatures you weren't playing main deck that should doubtlessly replace it; however, assuming that you want a way to blow up a troublesome permanent, Terastodon is far superior especially in combination with other reanimation targets.

Also, I really think you should play one Iona main deck. I know it was huge for Rob Castellon when he went all the way to the top 4 at SCG Boston (and didn't even lose but rather conceded in the semi finals and probably would have won the event otherwise).

[NyxathidHorror]

Congrats on the finish! We both know without at least one pivotal mistake you might have topped 8!

Any ways, just one thing in relation to constructive criticism, Angel of Despair and main deck at that, really? It is manifestly weak when you consider the voluminous amount of other viable options. I can easily name 4-5 creatures you weren't playing main deck that should doubtlessly replace it; however, assuming that you want a way to blow up a troublesome permanent, Terastodon is far superior especially in combination with other reanimation targets.

Also, I really think you should play one Iona main deck. I know it was huge for Rob Castellon when he went all the way to the top 4 at SCG Boston (and didn't even lose but rather conceded in the semi finals and probably would have won the event otherwise).

Don't listen! He's a DEMONIC attorney!!

jk

But seriously, I have to agree with you. I tested Angel for awhile, but in almost all situations Terastodon is better. I have to agree about Iona too; I couldn't go with at least 1 MD. Against certain decks Iona just says GG.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings Fellow Reanimators!

I just participated in a small local legacy event. The event was held at Superior Sports Cards in Tarentum, PA this past Saturday the 17th. I think there were about 20 people in attendance. I ran my standard Reanimator list and managed to make it to the Finals and agreed to a prize split with my opponent. So the following is a reconstruction of the event from the notes that I took during the event.

Round 1: ANT, Steven

Steven is one of the friends that travels with the rest of our play groups to various tournaments in the area. He just recently finished his ANT deck and has had a decent amount of time piloting it.

Game 1: I started off the day in fine fashion by mulliganing to 5 cards. They were a Jin, Brainstorm, Exhume, and two land. I guess at five cards it could have been a lot worse. However, Steven had not drawn the nuts so I managed to live a few turns. My Brainstorm dug me into a Force and a Misstep (Note Brainstorm being useful here). With this protection, I played draw go until I hit a Careful Study and managed to get Jin onto the table turn 5. Facing a forced discard at EOT, Steven went for broke. I let him storm and mana up with Dark and Cabal Rits. However, when he went to Infernal Tutor with a boatload of mana floating, I had to stop him with the Force of Will found by the Jin catalyzed draw seven. Jin recruited Iona the following turn. After naming Black, he scooped and we went to game two.

Sideboarding: -3 Daze, -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Animate Dead, -1 Mental Misstep, -1 Blazing Archon, -1 Elesh; +2 Show and Tell, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Stifle, +1 Iona, +1 Inkwell

Game 2: My draw wasn’t perfect but I had an EOT discard of Jin. He made an appearance on turn three via Exhume. Just like last game, the draw seven dug me into the counter magic I needed to stop him from going off. Jin had also found me an Entomb and Reanimate. I took the hit in life to lock him out with Iona on Black again.

1-0:2-0


Round 2: Merfolk, Nick

Nick was running a fairly standard Merfolk list but with a slight twist, he had maindeck Phantasmal Images. I didn’t really run into any trouble with these but I guess it could have been problematic.

Game 1: I had to spend a Force to get Jin to stick on turn 2. He had Silvergill and then had to discard. Jin recruited Iona, naming Blue. This was extra awesome this game as he hadn’t played a Vial this game. This completely locked him out and he promptly scooped.

Sideboarding: -3 Daze; +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Show and Tell

Game 2: I saw consecutive no land hands at both seven and then six cards. So like the first game of the last round I took a subpar five card hand. With these five I was not able to assemble any offense and eventually died to fishy beats.

Sideboarding: -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Show and Tell; +3 Daze

Game 3: On the play again, I kept a pretty solid opener. I land a turn 2 Jin through both an opposing Spell Pierce (which met a Misstep) and a Force (which met my Force). Jin digs up some counter magic and some friends which promptly hit the bin. I think Elesh and Sphinx where both among the discards. Jin managed to get the discard and beat in a few times before being removed by a Dismember. I had not drawn into another Force at this stage, so Jin did indeed meet his end. I used some of my reanimation magic to bring Sphinx (he flies and is out of Dismember range) to finish the game and the match.

2-0:4-1


Round 3: Merfolk, Jarrod

Jarrod is another one of my friend that plays with our group fairly often. He usually borrows someone else’s extra deck to play at Legacy events. Just my luck, the event that I lend him a deck I get paired against him. At any rate, these games were real fun as we joked around throughout them.

Game 1: Jarrod mulligans to six for a hand with options other than lands. I kept my opening seven. I managed to dig up a turn three Elesh playing around a turn one Cursecatcher on his side of the table. He had not landed a second lord. This wiped his side of the field and locked him out. A topdecked Hapless Researcher joined the fray on my side for some Reanimator-style, Nactl-sized beats. These two manage to finish off the game after a few combats.

Sideboarding: +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Show and Tell; -3 Daze

Game 2: My notes are jumbled for this match. My life total goes 20, 19, 16, 6, 5, 0. I think I remember wildly fetching trying to thin out the deck in order to find a reanimation spell to get Elesh back. Yet the life total says it all… the fish got to me before I could find the card I needed.

Sideboarding: +3 Daze, +2 Misdirection; -2 Mental Misstep, -1 Show and Tell, -2 Spell Pierce

Game 3: Back on the play, I again had to play around a turn one Cursecatcher. But just as in the first game, I managed to get Elesh onto the table turn three with the help of an Entomb. The subsequent turn, I reanimate a Sphinx. I have him dead on the next turn, and he did something real goofy. He cast Sower of Temptation targeting Elesh. Well apparently he didn’t know that state-based effects check and kill the Sower… so that was kind of funny.

3-0:6-2


Round 4: BW Good Stuff, Steve

At this point in the tournament, this guy and I were the only two people with undefeated records. So before the match we decided to draw. Then since we had some time to kill we played a few games for fun. I think this might have been an error on his part because it let me see his deck and plan on how to play against it in the top 8. I guess you could argue that I basically let the cat out of the bag too, but with all of my counter magic, I would be playing reactively and should more or less be in the driver’s seat. So this guy’s deck had Stoneforge, Batterskull, Swords, Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, and a whole bunch of discard.

3-0-1:6-2-1


Round 5: NO RUG, Kyle

Kyle is another one of my good friends. We had been playing for years together. As I was 3-0-1 and he was 3-1, I agreed to another draw so that we would both make the Top 8. We actually didn’t play any Legacy games at all. We took a break to relax and played some EDH.


TOP 8 MATCHES

So I made the cut for the Top 8 as did 3 of the other 5 guys that I came with. Brandon playing Enchantress, Kyle playing NO RUG, and Jarrod playing Merfolk all also made the cut.

Quarterfinals: Enchantress, Brandon

Brandon and I have been playing magic together since we were in middle and high school. I had actually spent the previous night before playtesting with him, discussing boarding options, predicting the possible meta, and sleeping under his bed in his dorm room (there wasn’t really any room anywhere else… it was kind of weird [keep in mind I drove back to my home state of Pennsylvania to play in the event even though I am going to grad school in Ohio]). As usual for a match with Brandon, we had a good fun regardless of who ended up winning.

Game 1: I knew he was playing Enchantress, so I knew that I did not have to fear counter wars and just had to watch out for Oblivion Rings, Solitary Confinements, City of Solitude, and maybe Lignify post board. If you don’t know what that is check it out because it is hilarious against us, if it resolves. I keep my opening seven and cast Hapless Researcher. He plays a Forest and played a Utopia Sprawl on his land. I beat in for one with the Researcher and then sacrifice it drawing my second land and pitching a Jin. I followed that play with a Reanimate. Jin drew me seven and forced Brandon to discard after a countered attempt to land an Enchantress’s Presence. After the discard, Jin beat in a few times and sealed the deal.

Sideboarding: -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Animate Dead, -1 Elesh; +2 Show and Tell, +1 Terastodon

Game 2: I am on the draw and keep my seven. Brandon plays land and plays a Utopia Sprawl. I draw land and discard the boarded in Terastodon. Brandon plays a second land and casts a Sterling Grove. I let it resolve. I play my first land and pass back. He casts an Enchantress’s Presence to which I Force pitching a Careful Study. On my next turn I play my second land, fetch up two Seas and Exhume Terastodon. I target the land with the Sprawl, and my two Seas. I end the game in three combats due to elephant beats. I have boarded in Terastodon a few times and used him to blow up problematic permanents, but this was the first time I have ever gone all in on him. Overall I guess it worked out alright. I will admit, it made me fairly uncomfortable but I guess it can work pretty well.

As an update, both Kyle and Jarrod lost in their first round to Merfolk and BW Good Stuff, respectively.


Semifinals: BW Good Stuff, Steve

So this was the guy that I played for fun against in round four after agreeing to a draw for the round.

Game 1: I won the roll and chose to go first. I manage to ward off an initial burst of disruption in the form of Thoughtseize with a Mental Misstep. I Entombed at the end of his turn, finding Jin. I didn’t hit a second land, so I was forced to use Reanimate to dig him back up. Jin drew me seven. I was able to counter the attempt at removing the Jin that came in the form of Swords to Plowshares. After the forced discard and taking 5 from Jin, my opponent scooped.

Sideboarding: -3 Daze, -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Exhume; +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Stifle, +2 Show and Tell

Game 2: My opponent leads with fetch finding Scrubland. He then cast Chrome Mox removing a Thoughtseize. He taps both and casts a Dark Confidant. Play a fetch and pass back to him. He plays another land and attacks for 2 points. I fetch finding a Undergound Sea and then Entomb a Jin. On my second turn, I Animate Dead bringing Jin back to the battlefield. Before going into my end step, my opponent casts Swords which meats a Mental Misstep. I draw my seven and discard an Elesh and a load of land. On his turn he flips a land to Confidant, plays a land and cast both a second Confidant and a Bitterblossom. I take my next turn and Animate Dead targeting Elesh nuking his board, and nullifying Bitterblossom. He starts his next turn, thinks for a second and congratulates me on the match.


Finals: Team America, Stu

At this stage of the tournament, the other five guys that I had come with were ready to go eat and get home. I had just watched Stu play his last round, so I knew what to watch out for and how to play against him. I also saw his board and that he had Leylines for graveyard based decks. So Stu and I sat down for the final and the store owner explained the prized distribution. It was $150 for first and $80 for second. We each thought about it for a minute. I mentioned that my friends wanted to get going and that I would gladly split the prize with him. He agreed and we each took home $115 in cash monies. You can't hardly argue with a ending like that to a tournament that only cost $20 to play in.


Props

Superior Sports Cards for having a solid event.

Jin for, as usual, winning me every game he hits the table.

Inkwell for being in the board and the Jin #4 that swapped slots with him assisting to better first games.

The entire crew that I went with, especially Brandon, Kyle, and Jarrod for all making top 8. Great work guys!

Slops

Brandon for getting paired against me in the Quarterfinals.

Kyle for playing NO RUG and losing to Merfolk in the Quarterfinals.

Brainstorm. I cast you maybe 3 times during the course of the tournament and only once did it find me relevant material. I did note it above too.

[dsck]

None of your opponents had grave hate?

[Sturtzilla]

I actually did not have my graveyard removed or messed with at all. I did board in Spell Pierces and Show and Tells preemptively throughout the day as I anticipated it occurring. I think that people haven't really started to board heavily for Reanimator. I did see in shuffling and de-sideboarding that Crypts, Relics, Phantasmal Images, and also Metamorphs had been boarded in throughout the day. Enchantress had some neat cards like Ground Seal, Wheel of Sun and Moon, O-Ring, and Lignify to fight against us. I would anticipate that only 2-3 slots were grave hate in the boards that had it. I guess you could pin it on luck, but I think you really need more than 2-3 cards to be able to fight against Reanimator post board. As you can see, this deck is fast, explosive, and consistent. Without some form of disruption and/or grave hate it is hard to beat.

[nastirth]

Have you guys already take a look at Innistrad's spoiler (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg%2Ftcg%2Finnistrad%2Fcig)?

These cards got my attention:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/t5gmjz8e2h_en.jpg

Another GY hate, this time white and with flashback.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/huqrd8yu70_en.jpg

I smell trouble. Control decks will love this guy. I need to have a talk with a friend who helped design this card (Tiago Chan, 2007 invitational winner)

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/1kkjmkhk6k_en.jpg

Another metamorph. An this one can kill his brothers. But at 2UB cost I think it won't play, since phyrexian metamorph is cheaper and does de job.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/gc26wyj18t_en.jpg

This land would be cool if it produced black or blue. Producing colorless mana won't serve.

Finally something interesting for us:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/nvfmtvk67x_en.jpg

I like it (maybe as a sb card), because it kills goyfs (and early kotrs too) and batterskulls. Should have trample or vigilance, but I think it deserves some playtest.

What do you guys think? Any other interesting cards?

[Sturtzilla]

@ nastirth

I have been following the spoilers and have been considering the ramifications of the upcoming cards. Some of what I am going to say is dependent upon tomorrow's bannings as well but at the moment let's just consider the deck as is.

I think that Purify the Grave is a bit narrow due to the casting cost. It is really good for decks running white (obviously), so it will probably see play in Stoneblade, Zoo, and Maverick. Otherwise I think there are better options for grave hate in forms already discussed at length here.

Snapcaster Mage... well I think he will be another card you must take into account when trying to reanimate threats. Can your opponent cast him and still cast a counter or kill spell (notable spells would include Spell Pierce and Mental Misstep in my mind [Daze and Force are not really going to be re-castable from the yard at the speed we hope to go off] and Misstep would just be nuts with this guy). I think this shouldn't be an issue as you know what is in their graveyard and by leaving open enough mana they may broadcast the play. On the other hand, I was thinking this card may warrant testing as he would allow for turn 3 or 4 additional reanimation attempts against control decks that manage to beat you in the counter war. The problem with that is, we would have to find space for him. I am pretty happy with my 75 at the moment so that would be an issue for me.

Evil Twin could be good against us. However, as you pointed out, the cost is prohibitive to many decks (unlike Metamorph). It could see fringe play, but I doubt it will cause us real issues.

Nephilia Drownward not even close to being good enough. Its effect is too slow, it doesn't produce colored mana, and the ability is sub-par unless paired with luck or a lucky Brainstorm. Straight up, it doesn't make the cut.

Balefire Dragon is interesting. I agree that it warrants some playtesting. It is a solid frame (6/6 is out of Dismember range), has evasion, and potentially can cause a one-sided Wrath effect. I think we have a more offensive version of Elesh here. It can kill bigger things but requires you being slightly more "all in" as you lose the ability to block if necessary. In comparison it is a bigger risk, bigger reward situation. Just like many of the other creatures we run right now, we would have to protect him. So that would make Mental Misstep very good, if/when we dig this guy up. However, since it is being looked at for banning that makes this hard to call. I think he could very well deserve a slot in the 75 but play testing will tell.

I have not seen anything that really caught my eye. However we still have a good number of cards to find out about. So maybe we will get something cool here this weekend. Good calls overall for discussion nastirth. Thanks for the food for thought!

[nastirth]

@Sturtz

The link I've posted in my previous post is the complete official visual spoiler from WotC. Check it, maybe I missed something juicy :wink:

Lets see what the bannings bring us. I think banning MM would be bad for us. I'd rather prefer seeing SFM and/or Jace banned :laugh:

[Darksteel]

I went up to 4 Jin-Gitaxias in my build and haven't looked back. Definitely seems worth it. Having extras to pitch to Force of Will/to reanimate (if one is killed) is awesome.

Went 3-1 in a local four round Legacy tournament last Saturday. 2-0'd Burn with Iona on Red both games, 2-0'd U/B Faeries with Jin + Elesh both games, and went 2-0 against Goblins, ultimately winning with Elesh both games.

The match I lost was to my teammate, who was running Ascension (AKA Legacy Soul Sisters. I believe there's a topic for it here on The Source. It's actually pretty potent and a hell of a blast to play!)

First game I got Iona on white and he scooped. Second game, he's got Leyline of the Void and I can't find my Echoing Truth. Third game, he had Leyline of the Void again and I stupidly kept a hand without Echoing Truth, as with last game, thinking I'd draw into it. No luck and he beats me.

So yeah, I hate Leyline of the Void. So much. I definitely need to practice more against it. :P

I've put Brainstorms back in, mainly to dig for Echoing Truth against Leyline. My build now resembles KevinTrudeau's from a few pages back, though I'm running Angel of Despair as a target maindeck.

Good call on the Stifles, Sturtzilla. I ran three in my board and they were just awesome. Stopped Crypts and such like a champ and I even screwed over the Goblin player's mana in one game by Stifling a fetch land.

Also, if Mental Misstep does get banned, what do you guys think Reanimator should replace it with? Spell Pierce? Flusterstorm? Dispel?

[Sturtzilla]

@ nastirth

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/isd/mz1xljgp8l_en.jpg

I took another run through the list. I think this guy looks like he could be fun. Although I think all of our other targets are better as the list currently stands. Yet he is pretty big, tramples, and could allow for some really dumb graveyard based shenanigans (some games you can get additional dudes to the yard, so he might be useful), if he isn't taken out by a StP or PtE. I honestly don't think he makes the cut for this deck, but it did catch my eye.

Actually I think he might warrant some testing in some Reanimator/Rock Hybrid (probably G/B) type deck. Think about using mana dorks to excel into a turn two Buried Alive and then reanimating this guy. Beating with him, then like sacrificing him to something like Cabal Therapy to get the other two dudes back. The consistency could be improved by playing Fauna Shaman too. Hell play Goyf, too. I think he could really generate some dumb combos. What do you guys think about this?


@ Darksteel

I have been liking the 4 Jin version too. I am glad to hear the deck is working out for you pretty well. I am also excited to hear you are liking the Stifle sideboard tech. It really is pretty versatile. If Mental Misstep gets banned, I have been thinking either Spell Pierce or Dispel should take that slot. I am really interested in what others think about this topic.

Although I don't really see Misstep as that big of an issue to the format. It is just another free counter spell to learn to against and around. Sure any deck can play it, but that makes the playing field equal. Others seem to think that too many decks are running it... well with that line of logic what about Brainstorm, Daze, and Force of Will? Are we going to ban those too? I have my fingers crossed for just Standard and/or Modern changes. Although I would love for Earthcraft to be legal in Legacy... I could dust off my casual Squirrelcraft deck... that would be fun.


Edit

Well it looks like we will be needing to start testing Mental Misstep replacements:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161a

I guess I am not surprised, but I am disappointed. This might be a place to start -4 Mental Misstep; +1 Daze (I do hate multiple Daze hands, but free counter spells are free counter spells), +3 Spell Pierce/Dispel. Spell Pierce is a bit more versatile and would make us more resilient to grave hate preboard (and would open up some slots in some boards), while Dispel fills the Misstep gap for removal quite well. I am not sure how this will impact us overall. We won't have to worry about half of our deck being countered due to another free counter. However, we won't be able to use it to combat Swords and Path type effects that nuke Jin. I am interested in feedback from other Reanimators... where do you guys think we should we be heading from here?

[Darksteel]

Well, Misstep just got the axe. :(

I guess Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm will take its spots in my deck.

It's gonna be lame not being as aggressive/quick with reanimating since we'll need to keep a mana open now. Still, it's nice in a way to not worry about our 1 drops being Misstep'd.

[alderon666]

Probably Seize.

[KevinTrudeau]

Well, Misstep just got the axe. :(

I guess Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm will take its spots in my deck.

It's gonna be lame not being as aggressive/quick with reanimating since we'll need to keep a mana open now. Still, it's nice in a way to not worry about our 1 drops being Misstep'd.

I don't think the deck can just swap out Mental Misstep for Spell Pierce and remain as powerful (as in, keep the disruption/countermagic ratio intact); a huge part of the philosophy of the deck changes now that there is no Mental Misstep metagame to take advantage of. It's a shame that Garobidou's extensive findings will no longer be of use.

[Darksteel]

Do you think it'll still be viable post banning? Will a CounterTop resurgence push the deck further into a lower tier?

EDIT: I feel that protecting Jin is a key aspect of the deck. Jin gives us a great match-up against a great many decks since he just flat-out locks the game, as we've all experienced. I really think he should stay in some quantity just because of his sheer power. One path the deck could go is slower and more control-like to get out Jin and protect him.

On the other hand, another path is that we could return back to using more Inkwell, more Iona, and other removal-safe (for the most part) targets and still try to go fast.

[Holden1669]

How about replacing with +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize?

[alphastryk]

How about replacing with +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize?

Thats the quickest direct port, but remember you have to be able to beat counterbalance reliably again.

[Demonic_Attorney]

The ability to one for one Swords to Plowshares and/ or Path to Exile for free at any time even when tapped out and to have the added ability to slow down fast aggro decks and their explosive first turn starts (i.e. Wild Nacatl) was just so good and this, in combination with the printing of Jin-Gitaxias breathed new life back into the reanimator archetype mitigating the significant loss of Mystical Tutor.

Now, however, the loss of Mental Misstep will be missed more by this deck than perhaps most decks in the present legacy metagame right now. The loss of mental misstep for reanimator is momentous and even if this deck is still viable and can continue to be a tier 1 legacy deck after October 1, 2011, it will definitely loss some consistency and tempo and much needed protection that gave me for one a lot of peace of mind.

[jcsy]

not to mention when Jin draws us 7 at end of turn, it gives us mental missteps too which is most often than not, better than thoughtseize, spell pierce, etc

[Holden1669]

Thats the quickest direct port, but remember you have to be able to beat counterbalance reliably again.

Yeah, you're right about this. And thoughtseize slows us down by a turn unless we introduce something like lotus petal (or similar). Misstep will be missed quite a bit, it was the perfect card for this deck. That said, the god hand with this deck (and misstep) was great, but I won quite a few games after some attrition and reanimating something on turn four, five, or later. Bringing in discard maindeck makes us a little more controlling, but I'm not sure that's the death knell for reanimator.

On the positive side, entomb will resolve a lot more often.

If we move from a turn 2-3 reanimation to a turn 3-4 reanimation which fatties become better or worse? Jin has to stay for sure. Does the stock of any of them change?

[Demonic_Attorney]

I am quite bewildered with a lot of people talking about counterbalance making this miraculous comeback and being a tier one deck again in the legacy format. Yes, it is true; counterbalance is a horrible match for reanimator. Always has been, probably always will be. That being said, counterbalance would and does have so many other terrible matchups right now in the present legacy metagame without or without mental misstep.

Counterbalance may see some or little play as oppose to virtually no play as has been the case this year in 2011; however, it is unlikely that counterbalance will see much play on the 5k circuit and I suspect it will not see the top eight of any large scale legacy events in the near future like Grand Prixs or Star City Games Opens.

In my view, the recent lack of main deck play of Inkwell and Empyrial will likely increase once again with Swords and Path becoming more problematic to deal with again.

[lordofthepit]

Counterbalance was a bad matchup for this deck because of its reliance on 1-drops and 2-drops, and on the surface, it would seem that Mental Misstep would have preyed on this deck as well.

But Mental Misstep actually helped this deck much more than it hurt:
1) As mentioned before, Mental Misstep allowed Reanimator to protect its threats from the most commonly played removal while tapped out. Having Misstep instead of Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce essentially sped up Reanimator by a turn.
2) The synergy between Jin-Gitaxias and Mental Misstep meant that we could run 3-4 copies of Jin. Unlike most of our reanimation targets (Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, Terastadon, etc.), which were situationally useful against some decks but terrible against others, Jin was very solid against the entire format. Previously, Iona had been the go-to target, but it had become less effective in the new format given that Aether Vial, Karakas, Swords/Path, Dismember/various black removal, Jace/bounce/Metamorph, and GSZ into KotR into Karakas all represented ways around the lock.
3) Moreover, by replacing Thoughtseizes and non-blue fatties with Missteps and Jins, Reanimator could now reliably play enough blue cards to consistently pitch to Force of Will.

[Muppet86]

mmm...losing MM is a big deal. I think everyone here knows the power of the card. I think that we hava a couple of choices:

Dispel: 1 mana counter for instants and sorcery;s. pretty decent, but if we tap out we still die to a STP or Path.

Spell pierce: Good as well, but if reanimator becomes slower, players will be able to pay for it.

Thoughtseize: Remove it beforehand. But still, players can topdeck it.

I don't know what kind of decks will reamurge after the banning. But i expect Zoo, Goblins, ANT/TNT and merfolk to become stronger.

[nastirth]

@MM banning: At first I was angry, because it realy hurts us, but... With snapcaster mage around it would be nuts having also mental mistep around. Control decks are and will be very strong with mage, and with mm they would be even better. So, either way those were bad news for us. :(

Ok, enough whinning. Let's see what we can do about it. I agree that, at first, the obvious replacement will be +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize. However, I'm thinking that another card can take some MM slots: Misdirection. Misdirection is also a "free" spell which handles almost everything targeting jin, even if it costs more than one mana (like diabolic edict). Of course playing with both FoW and Misdirection is tough because of the card disadvantage, but if you can protect Jin that won't be much of an issue. On the other hand Misdirection can't target artifacts like aether vial or relics. Another spell that can be considered is Dispel, which does the job of protecting jin at the cost of one mana. Another one is spell pierce which can counter artifacts, but sometimes it won't stop the targeted removal.

[Darksteel]

With Misdirection, you'd also need for them to have a creature out to redirect the spell to (If you're targeting StP, etc), right?

IMO, after looking at it, Dispel seems like the best option for targeted removal (as between Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and itself it's the only hard counter, as Misstep was) which was the majority of what I countered with Misstep, barring the occasional Vial and such. Perhaps going up to 19 or 20 lands and having to slow down a turn could help with running Dispel.

In addition, Dispel can counter other instants like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and such, if need be, not to mention Spell Snares and other higher cost instants. I believe it's one of the closest analogues to what Misstep did for our deck.

Spell Pierce is second best, I think.

Granted, all of the options make us a turn slower. We'll just have to see what the metagame morphs into.

Any of you guys have Cockatrice? O:

[jcsy]

MM also helped hide our hand, especially against Thoughtseize & Duress

now, we are left exposed to those mechanics... Brainstorm agrument to protect us from Thoughtseize and Duress was already ironed out, proving that Brainstorm doesnt cut it for this purpose

so far ;

misdirection , spell pierce, thoughtseize, dispel , duress

how about cursecatcher, stifle,

or just 4x lightning greaves , lol :D:D:D

[zmattk]

So I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last day about this deck and how it will adapt now that Mental Misstep is gone. I know everything is thinking about what cards will take the MM slot but there's a lot we haven't even covered yet, like our reanimation targets I think the standard list looked something like this: 3 Jin, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Angel of Despair/Terastrodon, 1 Empyrial Archangel, 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I know not every list had these creatures, many people had Iona, Inkwell, ect. but you get the picture. I think Inkwell and Iona definitely deserve some consideration now for permanent slots in the main. Iona shuts down a ton of decks, and even naming white prevents our creatures from being StP or PtE'd. I think Inkwell will be huge as well. Having shroud and a huge body will stop him from being removed as well as blocking aggro decks all day long. I'm not sure what we would take out though. I know Empyrial will probably be out of every list, but Jin still wins games single handedly and Elesh destroys the aggro decks that will return. Having Terastrodon would be great against CB decks if they make it big, and I've always liked Angel of Despair personally because of its vindicate effect.

The second thing I've been thinking about is Hapless Researcher vs. Ponder. I know people were kind of split on these before. Some people played up to 3 Hapless and no Ponder and others went the other way around. Does anyone have any input on which way we should go now that MM is banned? I'm leaning towards Ponder since we now have to be more of a control deck and play a little bit slower.

I would like to hear people's input on how to adapt this deck. I don't want to see it die because of the banning.

[jcsy]

i am just disappointed with Wizards. every time this deck seems to make it for a month, it gets components banned. might as well ban ENTOMB and all will be dust

/end rant

[Darksteel]

Yeah, seriously. But we still have the potential for a turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias with protection (though not as often/easily), so I'm going to keep testing.

@ Ponder vs. Researcher:

Between the two, I'm in favor of Researcher's ability to block Goblin Lackey (which I'm sure we'll be seeing more of, now). I've never ran the 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder version of this deck before, so I'm not sure of its effectiveness.

@ Targets:

Currently I'm running 4 Jin-Gitaxias, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Sphinx, 1 Angel of Despair, and 1 Iona. I'll probably drop a Jin for Inkwell or another Iona.

Angel got the nod over Terastodon because of her ability to hit creatures, though I may switch back to the elephant depending on how my local meta shapes up.

An interesting idea to fight Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile could be Disrupting Shoal combined with the Brainstorm/Ponder package. It's noticeably less consistent and obviously worse than Force of Will, but it's still a free (in a sense) counterspell and would allow us to be more aggressive.

Dispel hasn't been too bad in testing, though it sucks having to wait for a turn to reanimate to have that one mana open.

[Sturtzilla]

I prefer Researcher as it has better overall synergies within the deck. It is a discard outlet, it can attack and defend and to top it all off it gets beefy with Elesh. Honestly I am kind of anti-Brainstorm/Ponder because they do not further out game plan of a fast fat creature. In fact they get in the way. Sure they can help fix crappy hands, but with proper deck construction and some insight into how to mulligan, you shouldn't need to fix a crappy hand. Furthermore many times these card leave you high and dry with a crappy opening seven or fail to find the last piece you need for the combo. Personally, I have depended on Brainstorm too many times with this deck and not gotten what was necessary to seal the game. So it comes down to player preference. It doesn't fit the way I want to play the deck. I don't like it. However that all could be different for others.

At first, I LOLed at Disrupting Shoal... but it might warrant testing. It would allow for us to still go balls deep on turn 2-3 in the face of open white mana. This would be the case as long as we have it (the Shoal) and a one casting cost blue card... the deck does run a few of those (I think my build has 8; 2 Researchers, 2 Brainstorm, and 4 Careful Study and I don't even run the manipulation heavy list). The other side of this argument would be, how often are we actually facing removal for Jin before the draw 7. How many games does that happen? If it is low in your meta, then Shoal might be more sideboard oriented for tricky matches with PtE and StP, while Spell Pierce being a better main deck card. Neat thought.

[theBloody]

Spell Pierce works well for me, but still need some testing. Also I fall in love with LDV + researcher little combo :-)

[Anselm]

I'll try out a mix of Thoughtseize and Misdirection maindeck. Just Thoughtseize didn't seem quite good enough for my 4 Jin setup in today's testing. Will adjust the creatures a bit too.

Also, as we're now slower, I tried out some lotus petals, and they seem great. Especially when you go draw-discard and still reanimate on turn 2. 16 lands + 3 petals at the moment, don't know if that's correct.

[Water_Wizard]

Sturtz & others - thanks for all your great posts about Reanimator! I've been reading through the posts and have two questions. Stutz, first, why do you run the 2nd Iona in your board? Second, how does Flusterstorm work against Hive Mind? I realize Hive Mind is not the beast it once was (at least not in the online community), but wouldn't the Hive Mind just copy the Flusterstorm and they would target your copies with their copies +1 and negate all your storm spells?

I've been playing reanimator online and so far I've faced off against elves (combo version) and maverick with blue splash for clique and daze (played 3 games and never saw a FOW or NO). The first elves match was easy - I drew a great opening hand and MM'ed his 1st turn elf and had Iona on the board turn 2. The 2nd match I brought out Jin when he had 3 creatures on board - he tried to Beast Within, but I had a FOW and he scooped.
Maverick first game I landed Iona naming W (figured this was the smart thing to do to protect her from STP - I had some debate, as I had a MM in hand, so I considered naming G to prevent his creatures from hitting board - he was running 'goyf), but good thing I didn't because he Cliqued and I would have lost my MM - it turned into a race, but my 6/7 flyer (used animate dead) got there first.)
2nd game I drew an opening hand of Elesh and Jin and careful study, but I was wary to dump both of them in my graveyard - I was afraid of Relic or Crypt - something that would remove the whole gy - so, he lands a heirarch - I FOW of 'goyf to buy time (at this time, I'm still looking for my reanimation spell) - I draw exhume - I cast exhume, he surgical extractions in response, removing Elesh (my Jin is still in hand) - he brings back goyf, I kick myself b/c had I had 2 creatures in graveyard, it would have been a different game.
Game 3 is long - I land Iona for W. He plays Goyf (5/6 with a NH on board, so 6/7 attacker). He plays Maze of Ith - so we are at a standstill, him being at 5 life, me at 10 life. I finally draw entomb, placing Inkwell in my GY, Exhume to avoid MM, he brings back NH, I bring back Inkwell, he draws and scoops.

Here is my set-up (still tweaking it and any comments welcome):
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 UG Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verd. Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
(I always diversify my fetch lands, for the off-chance of pithing needle, revoker, or extirpate/surgical extraction)

4 Jin-G
1 Iona
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Archon
1 Elesh
1 Hapless Researcher (I would like to run more for block/sacs, anti Dredge, and anti Edict - Edict is bigger online)

3 Animate Dead
3 Reanimate
4 Exhume

3 Daze
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm (maybe I should cut these down to 2-3, I've been used to putting 4 Brainstorms in every blue deck I've played for so long (sans 'Folk), it's almost habitual)
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 MM

SB
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
1 Inkwell
1 Testadon

(Masques is not yet released online, so Misdirection is not an option :(, although both Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce seems like overkill against combo decks - perhaps not)

I read the original primer, but unfortunately, it was written before many of the fatties we currently run were printed - I couldn't find an updated primer - please let me know if it exists - I've covered the current decklists, and I have a few questions about which creatures are optimal against what decks (what creatures I should go for 1st)
I'm running Archon mainly for Progen and Emarkul, but considering dropping it to the sb.
Sphinx is nice, but what are we bringing it in against? Burn, even Zoo, it seems to make sense to bring in Iona on W, because how long is a Sphinx going to be around for with STP and PTE? The lifegain is nice, so is prop R and G, but and well-timed PTE is trouble - do we rely on counter magic?
Elesh is nice, but I'm also considering dropping it to the board - reason being, against tribal, I prefer Iona, I realize Vial allows Elves, Goblins, and Fish in under Iona, but I still think I would go for Iona 1st and Elesh 2nd.

I would like to add 2-3 Hapless Researchers to my deck. Sturtz, I know you'll probably say drop Brainstorms, but with all these fetchlands, Brainstorm just seems like such a good searcher.

Also, thoughts on adding more echoing truths to the SB? LotV seems like a major problem (guess we can S&T around it).

Is there an updated Primer with more of the current match-ups and sideboard changes? Sturtz, I read your tournament report - very helpful and well written - thank you - but it seemed like every game on the draw was - 3 Daze + 2 SP, 1 S&T and your needles and echoing truths never saw play - comments?

Also, thanks for your playtesting on Empyrial Archangel - it does seem like Zoo would just get a goyf, kird ape, and loam lion on board and attack, killing Archangel (assuming goyf was 4/5), so it basically buys you a few turns and not worth it - thanks for figuring this one out so I didn't have to do it myself :)

[Sturtzilla]

Regarding Iona:

There are still mono colored decks out there and Iona totally blows them out of the water. Honestly, I am not sure if a second copy is needed. The effect is really powerful but just not quite what you want all the time. It has been great for me against Combo Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, High Tide, ANT, and even Hive Mind. This brings me to you next question.

Regarding Flusterstorm:

When you cast Flusterstorm, you get the spell you cast and you get the Storm keyword ability. When you opponent gets a copy of the spell via Hive Mind, they get only the copy of the spell, not the Storm keyword. So you effectively get to out gun them. Furthermore, if you opponent casts Chalice of the Void at 1 (which that deck has been know to do), you can still cast Flusterstorm. Chalice will counter the actual spell, but you still get to Storm and get the multiple copies of the spell placed onto the stack unmolested by the Chalice.

Regarding Leyliine of the Void:

You think it would be played far more than it actually is. At least that has been my experience. I have been playing this deck for a long time and have rarely seen it cast, more/less mulliganed to to begin the game in play. I run Echoing Truths and Show and Tell to deal with this issue. However, I generally won't board in the Truths unless I actually see LotV or know the opponent is running them. Running Spell Pierce, Stifle, and/or Show and Tell have been more effective for me. I guess it might catch up to me in the future, but LotV is a card that I would need to see before I board against it. Most decks these days have been running Crypt or Relic. The other pieces of sideboard I have mentioned handle these better. The notable exception to this would be Junk/Rock and Team America Decks. They generally would be the decks to expect the LotV against.

Regarding Sideboarding In General:

If you read the most recent report from this past weekend, I didn't ever need to board in much more than that. If you jump back to the report from SCG Pittsburgh (like maybe 10 pages back [Or alternatively you can click this link and then click the link next to my name: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/21447_StarCityGamescom_Open_Series_Reports_From_Around_The_Net.html), I faced a bit more diverse field and therefore used more of my board. Boarding in this deck is a delicate issue too. As you board in hate for your opponents plan, you slow the deck down which makes it less effective and probably slower. So small corrections in the counter and creature packages are generally what I prefer to do. Personal preference again, I guess.

Regarding Brainstorm:

I just said it a few posts ago and I have been a proponent ever since I made the switch, but Brainstorm whiffs just about as often as it helps in this deck, even with the use in tandem with fetches. I think Researchers are the way to go as they can Attack, Block, fight Dredge, enable discarding (our deck needs redundancy in this area), and they are blue to boot. So they pitch to FoW quite nicely. I catch a lot of crap from semi- and pro players for only running 2. But consider this question, would you rather start the game with what you need to combo by turn 2 or would you rather spend a turn (or more) dicking around with a Brainstorm or Ponder? Speed is good and Brainstorm isn't in this deck's ideal line of plays (see below). I am not saying it is bad, but it isn't ideal.

Turn 1: Entomb, Careful Study, Hapless Researcher
Turn 2: Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead
Turn 3: Opponent realizes he/she is losing the game.

Regarding Empyrial Archangel and Other Creature Choices:

I was never impressed with it when I was running it. Zoo attacks and then sends burn over the top at your dome to finish her off. She is not worth it. Land a turn two Jin and then dig up Sphinx or Archon. Or just get Sphinx of Archon quick. They might have 4 spells in the deck that can handle Sphinx. Sphinx shines when your opponent is running Zoo or Goblins mainly but is awesome as the life gain enables more reanimation. Archon just rocks against Progeitus and Emrakul as you stated above.

Thanks for reading the report and your appreciation. As for a revised primer, I think it would be pretty good to have the thread updated. The primer at present is quite out of date. While conceptually accurate, it is missing many of our key creatures, variants, match ups, boarding strategies and so on. I wouldn't be opposed to writing or collaborating with other on this thread to write a new one. What do you guys think?

[Water_Wizard]

Sturtz - thanks for your quick and thorough reply! I agree with you on Hapless over Brainstorm and possibly a 3rd Daze - I'll tinker around with it online.

Just a note about online (because I realize we are dealing with a mixed crowd) - one of the major differences between online in real life is your ability to 'know' your players. I've played both and irl, you usually know people, their playing styles, their decks, and you can pick up on their body language. in MTGO, there are some cues (thinking pauses, etc. - but are they real or fake?), user names (although some players have multiple or change names), but the biggest difference is the variety of decks and the ability to change decks. Overall, cards are more accessible and cheaper online - duals are between 8-25 (Plateau - Tundra) and it is super easy to switch decks between 1:1 matches (you can't see the players in the queue, but if I play a 1:1 queue and lose to a deck, the queue fills again, I pick a deck with better odds against the deck I just faced - this doesn't always work, as there is some gamesmanship in filling the queue, but it works often enough - irl, you would have to walk across the room, pick a new deck, etc. Also, there aren't many 1:1 queues irl.) Additionally, and most importantly, the player pool is so much larger online. I play people I've never heard of, have no clue what they are playing, etc. Online, you can't scout games, but there are methods to look up recent tournament listings and see decks - however, this doesn't work with multiple user names. The point of all this relates to sideboarding - oftentimes, I don't know what people are playing or boarding and I have no chance to see them subbing or even how many sleeves they are switching. Just differences to note. Great point about the Leylines showing up in the Rock and Team America, though - maybe Dredge for the mirror - this is the most frequent appearance of these cards.

Thanks for the note about Flusterstorm - very good information about it getting under Void and Hive Mind not copying the Storm effect - I'm still learning the rules - I shouldn't say learning, but rather learning the subtleties - another beauty of MTGO is that the rules are automatic, although it helps to know them to gauge your plays.

Regarding Stifle - I like it against Crypt and Hive Mind (Stifle the upkeep cost), but it doesn't work so well against Relic, as they can just re-activate in response (assuming they have open mana). Also, great call about using it against Faerie Macabre. Also could be used potentially against a Jace to keep a creature on the board to attack - I guess Inkwell is a better option. Metamorph is still a problem (I read some posts about that a few pages back).

I might try Divert - remember, I don't have Misdirection (yet) on MTGO or I could go with Thoughtseize or an extra copy of echoing truth.

I reading your Pittsburg report - thanks for the link - taking out the FOW against speed makes sense and opens up slots and varying Daze/FOW depending upon play/draw

When do you choose to board Animate Deads over Exhumes? Exhumes when you don't want to bring their creatures back and Animate Deads when you are worried about enchantment destruction/bounce? I notice you take out Exhume against NO Rug and Animate Dead against Hive Mind - reasons? I could see doing the opposite since NO Rug has more of a chance of enchantment hate and Animate Dead is a potential S&T target (assuming opponent casts S&T and you have creatures in the bin but not in hand).

It seems Hive Mind is played a little differently online - usually Hive Mind players sport S&T for Emrakul and don't run Chalice of the Void because it interferes too much with their Brainstorm/Ponder/MM - here is a typical online build: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=45718

I would be interested in writing a new primer focusing upon builds (I think we all agree on the general build besides hapless/brainstorm and a few creature cards - the sideboard could be worked, but 95% of this deck is set).
The big thing I would want to focus on in a primer is 1) What is the primary target against certain decks - when do you go for Jin vs. Iona vs. Archon vs. Sphinx vs. Elesh? Seems like Jin is the obvious target for any control, mid-range, or combo, Iona is best against single color, Sphinx against zoo (with MM in hand), and Archon/Elesh depending upon board. 2) What to sideboard against what match-ups.

I'm thinking about moving Elesh to the sideboard or eliminating it all together. I realize it saved you against Merfolk (Sower could have stolen anything else), but I wonder if it's not the new-kid-on-the-block and just going to be another Empyrial Archangel.

[Water_Wizard]

3 more things-
Sphinx gets around Karakas (pretty popular in StoneBlade and Maverick online)
I'm thinking of taking Thoughtseize out of my board - I like it against combo, but until Mental Misstep bans, it is tough to play thoughtseize/mm/reanimate in the same deck with fetch lands, you kill yourself.
3 - thoughts of moving Elesh to sb - seems like he is hardly the first target against any deck -
zoo - sphinx
elves, goblins, fish - iona, followed by archon (sub for game two)
stoneblade/ATNS/most other decks - Jin

I do like him against dredge and I do like 3/3 Hapless Nactals, but perhaps bringing him out of the board opens up a spot for another hapless?

[KevinTrudeau]

Stifle doesn't work so well against Relic, as they can just re-activate in response.

When do you choose to board Animate Deads over Exhumes? Exhumes when you don't want to bring their creatures back and Animate Deads when you are worried about enchantment destruction/bounce? I notice you take out Exhume against NO Rug and Animate Dead against Hive Mind - reasons? I could see doing the opposite since NO Rug has more of a chance of enchantment hate and Animate Dead is a potential S&T target (assuming opponent casts S&T and you have creatures in the bin but not in hand).

I'm thinking of taking Thoughtseize out of my board - I like it against combo, but until Mental Misstep bans, it is tough to play thoughtseize/mm/reanimate in the same deck with fetch lands, you kill yourself.

Relic gets exiled as part of its cost, meaning it won't be in play to be able to get activated again.

Choosing which reanimation spell(s) to board out is actually one of the finer subtleties of the deck (along with choosing the correct seven cards to keep after the first cleanup step with Jin, an issue that may sound frivolous without much examination, but is actually quite important). It usually comes down to specific cards an opponent may have— Extirpate means you should probably cut Animate Dead above Exhume, Cursecatcher means you should probably cut Exhume over AD, enchantment destruction means you should probably cut AD over Exhume, etc. Reanimate should always be under consideration to be cut against slower decks. It's also important to note that in matches where Thoughtseizing an opponent's creature—›reanimating it with a targeting reanimation spell (Reanimate, AD) is a real path to victory, AD is superior to Exhume. I just recommend studying decklists online and really thinking about what specific cards an opponent will have, and boarding accordingly.

Don't cut Thoughtseize (in this current pre-ban metagame). It's been absolutely tremendous in setting up combo turns against blue decks for me (in tandem with Brainstorm), enables you to win games you normally shouldn't by reanimating the opponent's creatures, and is just excellent disruption in general.

[Sturtzilla]

Wow you have a lot of questions for a dude from Hawaii... j/k man.


When do you choose to board Animate Deads over Exhumes?

KevinTrudeau hit this issue right on the head. Awesome answers by the way man. Both of these cards are really good but many times one is specifically better than the other. So when you cut one or two to sneak in Show and Tells you want to make sure to pick the one that is less powerful versus what you are facing. A few items to consider:

1: Facing basically any aggro deck in which you might have countered a creature, Animate Dead is better as your opponent doesn't get a dude back too.

2: Against Merfolk to play around Cursecatcher, Animate Dead is superior to both Reanimate and Exhume.

3: Against decks with enchantment removal, namely Zoo and Maverick packing Quasali Pridemage, Exhume is superior.

4: Extripate means Exhume is superior to the other spells, as you get a chance to re-Entomb or Hapless Researcher after it resolves, as it doesn't target.



I'm thinking about moving Elesh to the sideboard or eliminating it all together. I realize it saved you against Merfolk (Sower could have stolen anything else), but I wonder if it's not the new-kid-on-the-block and just going to be another Empyrial Archangel.

I wasn't sold on Elesh until I actually started playing it. It is so good. It blows out nearly any tribal deck as long as you aren't terribly slow. It is pretty decent versus Zoo as it makes everything but Goyf and Knight negligible in terms of combat. It is awesome against Stoneblade if placed correctly. Let them resolve SFM, then land her before they can cheat in Batterskull. You nuke their board and keep them behind for a few turns. Just think about her versus NO RUG... it is a big tempo killer for them.

The fundamental difference between Elesh and the Archangel in my mind is that fact that Elesh has is Vigilent. She can be a one sided Wrath of God, she attacks, defends, and doesn't have a clause that kills her if your opponent has a board. I don't think there is much of a comparison. Elesh >>> Archangel. I would agree that most games she isn't the primer target, but she still can win you games against a good cross section of the decks in the format.

[Water_Wizard]

You guys are great - both of you! Thank you so much for your informational and timely replies!

Kevin - thanks for the correction about the Relic, I stand corrected.

Thank you both for the information about AD/Exhume - Sturtz - great point about being able to react after using Exhume - Surgical Extraction appears in the most unexpected places.

I'll keep plugging away with Elesh - good point about it's tempo-killing ability against NO RUG.
Against most tribal decks (assuming they don't have a developed board), I would go for Iona first, but great point about the vigilance and 2 Engineered Plagues usually seals the game.

Another great point about Thoughtseize is you could use it against yourself. Kevin, good call on the Reanimates/AD against your opponents graveyard - I hadn't developed my thinking that deep and better to learn though the forums than on the felt.

I haven't always lived in Hawaii. I moved out here 13 months ago for grad school. I was actually born in Cleveland and lived there for 8 years. I just have lots of questions because I decided to start playing Reanimator again and I bought my Jins and Elesh last night and now I'm playing. I wasn't really 'feeling' the deck, so I ask my questions, you experienced and very helpful guys answer, and I appreciate it - Thanks Kevin and Sturtz!

[Water_Wizard]

Quick SB Question-

Here is my SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
1 Inkwell
1 Testadon

Here is Sturtz's:
2 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
1 Inkwell
1 Testadon
1 Iona

I can't play the Misdirections b/c they haven't come out yet online.

In reading through the tourney reports and posts, I can't see one place where the Needles have come in. It's hard to side them in against artifact hate, as there are 3 possible options (Spellbomb, Crypt, Relic). I guess you could wait until they are on board and then play it, but this slows you down. Scavenging Ooze is a necessary target for Needle, Jace, Karakas, & Maze, but I never see it sided in against that. How about Repeal? Bounce artifact hate at eot, but you get a free card. Other thoughts are adding another S&T, Truth, Stifle, or Spell Pierce for the Needles - I know they are good, but they feel very reactive for this fast of a deck - It seems like everything in this deck needs to be focused on getting a creature into play and protecting it - I'm even questioning the Spell Pierces in the sb - I guess against a deck with a slow clock, you could wait to reanimate/exhume/AD until you had 3/4 land on-board and counter back-up.

Thoughts? I would almost rather sb Testadon against Karakas, Maze than needle. Repeal is looking appealing, as it is multipurpose (slows down affinity), although I guess needle is about as multi-purpose as it gets. Repeal's free card is nice...

[Water_Wizard]

double post

[Sturtzilla]

The flexibility of Pithing Needle is what gets it a spot. Like you said you can hit many targets with it ranging from Karakas, Jace (not to mention all other Planeswalkers), Maze of Ith, anything that levels (I am looking at you Coralhelm Commander), Aether Vial, and many of the busted combos that are out there from Forgemaster to Salvagers... Needle can help stop these decks from doing what they do. However many times if you are fast enough, say turn two or three, you won't need to worry about about stopping them as Jin will take care of that for you. In the same line of thought as posted earlier, when you begin to sideboard heavily you destabilize the deck, making it slower and less focused. I like having the Needles in the board but as of late I really haven't been using them much.

As for Repeal, it is definitely a good card. It is pretty awesome when you pay one or two at EOT to bounce graveyard hate. However, I believe it to compete with the slot held by Echoing Truth. And Echoing Truth is simply better as it doesn't make us wait for five turns to deal with a LotV. That is my logic there. The draw a card in addition to buying the turn you need to reanimate could be really powerful though.

At any rate you have really brought up a rather profound question. How should our sideboard be evolving? And quite honestly, the changes I have made have been small and I my opinion necessary. I haven't looked critically at many of my choices since I made them years ago. So maybe over the next few days I will look into that and see what I can learn about my side boarding strategies and what I use and don't use. Ultimately, this could lead to a stronger board and one that is more useful. And realistically we should definitely be doing this now as we are filling a 4 slot hole in the deck and potentially doing that with a few cards that were in our sideboards.

[zmattk]

I've also been thinking about my sideboard the past few days. I have decided on going either spell pierce or dispel in the main over MM as well as a fourth daze. I tried out thoughtseize and did not like it as much. Spell pierce and dispel make the deck feel more natural to my play style.

As of right now my board looks something like this
1 Blazing Archon
1 Open Creature slot
2 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize

I know this really needs to change a lot. I just have flusterstorm in for now to see what hive mind does. I'm thinking I might need to cut it for mindbreak trap for high tide decks though. I like null rod now because it hits crypt/relic/spellbomb as well as vials and equipment. It also is nuts against storm combo decks. It was my favorite sideboard card pre MM. I'm thinking about lowering the number of Show and Tell to 2 for either mindbreak trap or another creature. I also am unsure about thoughtseize. I'm just not sure what decks I'd really bring it in against. I'd mostly want it against combo decks and control decks, but that's really why I have chose dispel/spell pierce in the main. But at the same time thoughtseize seems like it would really help sometimes so I'm a little torn right now. If I cut thoughtseize, I have room for 2 Misdirection which I really like and another creature/mindbreak trap.

Finally, I need to choose what creatures to have in my board. In my main, I have the following as of right now:

3 Jin
1 Elesh
1 Iona
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Angel of Despair

I like Elesh over Archon because she can absolutely destroy aggro decks as soon as she hits. I've also had NO RUG players scoop as soon as she landed before. So in my board the only actual creature slot I have picked out is Blazing Archon. I have no idea what I should do for my other 1-3 open slots. Right now my options are doubling up on creatures I already have like Elesh, Iona, or Sphinx. Or use some set of less good utility creatures like Planinum Angel/Emperion, Sundering Titan, Sheoldred, Terastrodon, ect. Do you guys have any thoughts on the creatures we should have in our board?

[Darksteel]

I'd recommend the second Iona because in some matchups she's absolutely amazing. I also like Stormtide Leviathan in the board against Progenitus/Emrakul decks, plus he beats for 8. I also keep Blazing Archon for Dredge, though I may leave him since I have Elesh and Stormtide Leviathan.

As for my board, I'm thinking, after dropping Archon:

3 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth
1 Show and Tell (Yeah, I know. :P I'm working on getting more.)
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm

As for the Misstep replacement, I think Spell Pierce is looking like the best choice after testing some, as long as you use it early, obviously. Dispel's still a hard counter, but there are so many evil non-instant, non-creature spells I see played. :P

[Mr. Forsberg]

I also like Stormtide Leviathan in the board against Progenitus/Emrakul decks [...]

This has probably been brought up earlier in the thread but I guess it has to be brought up again; Emrakul, the Aeons Torn has flying, so he (she? it?) may still attack when you have a Stormtide Leviathan in play.

EDIT: Also, why only one Flusterstorm in the sideboard? I feel like you need to play at least two or three if you want to draw it consistently, or are you planning on changing it for a second Show and Tell when you get it?

[Sturtzilla]

This has probably been brought up earlier in the thread but I guess it has to be brought up again; Emrakul, the Aeons Torn has flying, so he (she? it?) may still attack when you have a Stormtide Leviathan in play.

Truth! This why Blazing Archon is just superior in the first place.

[Anusien]

It seems to me that the best way to set up the creatures is 4 Jin-Gitaxias 2 Platinum Angel and then 2-3 others, in some combination of Iona, Terastodon and Angel of Despair.

Jin-Gitaxias is obviously the best, but you often can't attack with it through a Tarmogoyf. Also, Reanimating it costs you 10 life, and you are vulnerable to a bunch of burn/alpha strike. Platinum Angel is the best second choice there as it protects you from both (and lethal Tendrils).

[Sturtzilla]

It seems to me that the best way to set up the creatures is 4 Jin-Gitaxias 2 Platinum Angel and then 2-3 others, in some combination of Iona, Terastodon and Angel of Despair.

Platinum Angel is terrible. My opinion is that we shouldn't play it, period (in the main deck, in certain metas there might be an argument for a one of in the sideboard). Play something that will help you win the game not keep you from losing. With this deck you shouldn't be in a place where you are on the ropes, that is if you get Jin early. Therefore there are far better targets, some of which you have listed.

[KevinTrudeau]

It seems to me that the best way to set up the creatures is 4 Jin-Gitaxias 2 Platinum Angel and then 2-3 others, in some combination of Iona, Terastodon and Angel of Despair.

Platinum Angel is pretty bad in a general sense. Zoo and Goblins can deal 20 (since you can't really safely block with it) and then eradicate it via Qasali Pridemage, Path, multiple Bolts and/or multiple Lavamancers, Siege-Gang, Incinerator, Weirding, etc. Merfolk even has Dismember now. Storm combo can just ignore it, Tendrils you, and then bounce or destroy it later. I don't think I need to go into detail on how it's subpar against Jace control decks. Note that you'll likely not be able to counter any removal cast when you're at zero life or below because Force of Will requires you to pay life, and you can't really provide a good clock with just a 4/4 flying body.

[Water_Wizard]

I played a few games online - 2 last night and 2 today - I went 2/2, but didn't take very good notes.
High Tide is back in force online - I can see players playing this to get familiar, but with MM still legal, it's hard to get High Tide off.

I want to summarize the recent sideboard posts and discuss and change I'm planning to make to mine.

BTW, I think Reanimator has a very favorable match-up vs. High Tide. High Tide is much more popular online due to the easy accessibility of Candelabras - they are going for $8 online (versus $250 irl and very limited availability). The irony of High Tide is that for a Blue Deck, it doesn't have very many counterspells - usually 4 FOWs and perhaps some Pacts from the board, but these are not viable unless you are trying to reanimate after your opponent has 5 lands. Some High Tide decks run Remand, but this just buys them a turn. Iona for blue locks out High Tide. Beware of artifact creatures because most HT decks run Hurkyl's Recall in the board and can get it game 1 with Cunning Wish. Also, Snap is prevalent among HT decks. I'm also considering keeping Dazes in on the draw against HT - HT needs to use it's mana it's first few turns for Ponders, Preordain, Merchant Scrolls, and Candelabras - however, spell pierce and dispel are better picks - I just notice High Tide decks seem to tap out a lot during their first few turns (I guess Brainstorming at eoyt is an exception to this). Just FYI, I realize most paper players haven't had the chance to play High Tide (perhaps with proxies), but they usually need at least 4 land to go off - you can go off with 3, but it is unlikely - this makes Stifle a good target for their fetch lands - it sets them back a turn and disrupts their mana balance - mana is a delicate thing against HT - they want just enough, but not too much, and they will get to 4 and pitch the rest to Preordain/Ponder/Brainstorm - so, Stifling an assumed fetch land can be huge and Stifling a Candelabra untap can stop them in their tracks and render their previously cast high tides worthless. Also, always save your MM for HT (only valid for another few days)

So, on to my sb. I decided to drop a Thoughtseize. The balance of this deck is so delicate, I was having trouble finding room for a 3rd TS in the deck.

Sturtz, I like your comments about repeal - better options exist. I'm leaning towards a 3rd Echoing Truth or Dispel - Spell Pierce is nice and so is Stifle - I may bring in a 3rd Stifle due to it's utility. Dispel also saves us from STP/PTE, especially after MM is banned.

[Julian23]

Hi Water_Wizard, it seems we just played on MODO when I was running High Tide. Let me confirm, that this deck is such a pain in the ass for High Tide, it's not even funny. All we have is 4 Force of Will to defend against turn2 Iona and even then, it won't always work out, especially in case you guys run Spell Pierce in the main (which I think would be a pretty good call right now!).

[DragoFireheart]

All we have is 4 Force of Will to defend against turn2 Iona and even then, it won't always work out, especially in case you guys run Spell Pierce in the main (which I think would be a pretty good call right now!).

Combo/control decks usually get really great mileage out of Spell Pierce. Ask Vintage players what they think of it. It stops most relevant spells within the first 1-3 turns when you want to go off or disrupt something.

[Water_Wizard]

Hi Water_Wizard, it seems we just played on MODO when I was running High Tide. Let me confirm, that this deck is such a pain in the ass for High Tide, it's not even funny. All we have is 4 Force of Will to defend against turn2 Iona and even then, it won't always work out, especially in case you guys run Spell Pierce in the main (which I think would be a pretty good call right now!).

Yes, we did just play - didn't we split - me winning winning with Reanimator and losing with Burn? Good games!

I changed my maindeck to include 4 Brainstorms (-2 Hapless Researchers) and Sideboard to -1 Thoughtseize +1 Echoing Truth.

Thanks for the feedback Julian!

[nastirth]

I'm still debating over the MM substitution. Right now I just made a simple 4x4 replacement with Dispel. So far it's working over my expectations, but the truth be told I didn't got any t1 matchup yet. So lets wait and see.

As far as the creature base goes, I'll keep my actual 8:

3 Jin - aka The Boss
1 Iona - against mono color decks like burn, high tide, muc
1 Elesh norn - against dredge and decks with small toughness creatures like gobbos, elves, affinity
1 Blazing archon - for progenitus and emrakul
1 Sphinx of steel wind - against decks with goyfs, kotrs, karakas, very good against zoo, burn and gobbos too
1 Empyrial Archangel - against CONTROL decks, can't be touched and provides a fast clock. I like this better over inkwell because of it's fog effect that is pretty efficient against control. If you reanimate inkwell you'll be raced by man lands and cliques.

I not sure if I can go back to the "fast" version. Without MM it's much harder to fight early discard spells that will make serious damage on decks without library manipulation. I'll keep playing my 4 brainstorm version for now, and see where it goes.

[Anselm]

So far, I'm impressed by the deck without MM. Merfolk seems easier, Zoo is still very favorable. My current list:

4 entomb, 4 study, 2 hapless, 2 brainstorm
4 jin, 1 elesh norn, 1 iona, 1 sphinx
4 exhume, 4 reanimate, 2 animate dead
4 fow, 3 daze, 3 thoughtseize, 2 misdirection
4 sea, 1 island, 1 swamp, 10 fetch, 3 lotus petal

sb:
1 inkwell
1 sphinx
1 terastodon
1 archon
3 needle
1 stifle
2 show and tell
2 spell pierce
1 brainstorm
2 echoing truth

[alphastryk]

@zmattk:

I definitely like that creature mix, its basically what I've been playing for a while. My initial thought is that if we need inkwell, its probably a sideboard card, and the angel is fine most of the times you want a shroud creature.

I still think having more ponders is correct, as they let you setup a second creature or recover from losing your first one more. The way I see it, hapless and careful study are early game enablers that are very weak topdecks, where ponder is mediocre early but is an amazing topdeck later in the game when you are looking for that one card.

My thinking is to replace the 4 free slots with 1 misdirection, 3 thoughtseize and see how the deck feels.

On matchups:

High Tide is a very favorable matchup postboard with Iona (or all 3 games if you have her maindeck). I think the merfolk matchup got a bit easier, zoo stays easy, goblins is a joke. We really need wot worry about counterbalance the most as far as I can think.

[kingsey]

So you slowed down a turn since its not "fast"? Whats the list you settled on? Also no angel of dispair or terasdon?


I'm still debating over the MM substitution. Right now I just made a simple 4x4 replacement with Dispel. So far it's working over my expectations, but the truth be told I didn't got any t1 matchup yet. So lets wait and see.

As far as the creature base goes, I'll keep my actual 8:

3 Jin - aka The Boss
1 Iona - against mono color decks like burn, high tide, muc
1 Elesh norn - against dredge and decks with small toughness creatures like gobbos, elves, affinity
1 Blazing archon - for progenitus and emrakul
1 Sphinx of steel wind - against decks with goyfs, kotrs, karakas, very good against zoo, burn and gobbos too
1 Empyrial Archangel - against CONTROL decks, can't be touched and provides a fast clock. I like this better over inkwell because of it's fog effect that is pretty efficient against control. If you reanimate inkwell you'll be raced by man lands and cliques.

I not sure if I can go back to the "fast" version. Without MM it's much harder to fight early discard spells that will make serious damage on decks without library manipulation. I'll keep playing my 4 brainstorm version for now, and see where it goes.

[bfspider]

So far, I'm impressed by the deck without MM. Merfolk seems easier, Zoo is still very favorable. My current list:

4 entomb, 4 study, 2 hapless, 2 brainstorm
4 jin, 1 elesh norn, 1 iona, 1 sphinx
4 exhume, 4 reanimate, 2 animate dead
4 fow, 3 daze, 3 thoughtseize, 2 misdirection
4 sea, 1 island, 1 swamp, 10 fetch, 3 lotus petal

sb:
1 inkwell
1 sphinx
1 terastodon
1 archon
3 needle
1 stifle
2 show and tell
2 spell pierce
1 brainstorm
2 echoing truth

What made you choose pedals over ponder?

[Water_Wizard]

Anselm, what are you bringing in the 3rd brainstorm against? Discard?
it seems like the most difficult question is sb switches. Against control (u/w stoneforge), I'm tempted to take a lot of the creatures out (leave inkwell, iona, and 3 jin) in favor of disruption. I realize I run the risk of losing creatures to reanimate, especially if they have surgical extraction, other graveyard removal, and stps, but against control I can wait a few turns to have counter-magic available when I try to go off. What is the minimum number of reanimation targets you guys run?

3 notes from games last night:
1. So, I'm playing the mirror. This is my first game against the mirror and I realize it before he does, but I make a bad play. He wins and chooses to play. My opener is MM, Jin, Polluted Delta, Daze, FOW, Brainstorm, and Reanimate. He plays Marsh Flats. I draw Careful Study and drop my Delta. He sacs and I sac. He casts Entomb at the end of my turn. I get counter-happy and MM it! I should have let this go to steal his creature - pretty much either way, I have counter-back up the next turn. If he goes exhume or animate dead, I have daze with FOW back-up. If he goes reanimate, I have up to 3 counterspells. I'm almost positive I can counter his attempt and land mine the next turn. Wasting a MM against him was foolish.
2. I finally landed Pithing Needle for Relic - it was game 3 against Goblins and I saw him play Relic game 2 - I assumed he was only running relic, so the play worked and Elesh hit board and takes out a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC and 3 tokens and I have FOW for Stingscourger. Game.
3. I see a reason to run a 2nd Iona in the board (and this may seem obvious to most people), but it increases your chance of drawing it/having it in hand for Careful Study/or having one in your deck for Entomb. I ran into a situation against Goblins where my only Iona was in hand and I had an Entomb, it ended up working out okay, as I went for Elesh, but that 2nd Iona would have created some options.

[dahcmai]

What are you guys using for a critter when playing against Zoo? I reanimate Sphinx it dies to Path or Swords, I pick Iona, she gets run over by burn and creatures attacking into her, I pick Jin, I run out of time and get burned out. The biggest problem is they always seem to have the path or swords and I can't do it multiple times before the burn hurts from a reanimate I just have to cast. I was to the point of almost using Mimeoplasm so I could remove an Archangel and something to really cover my butt.

[Water_Wizard]

The Mimeoplasm brought a smile to my face - how do you plan to get 3 creatures in the yard? Buried alive? With Zoo's lack of countermagic, it may be viable to play buried alive, but then we are looking at turn 4 reanimation at best - I guess you would still be alive against most zoo decks. Unless you ran some kind of mana accelerator - Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, etc. With MM leaving, Dispel may be our best option for PTE, but this still slows you down a turn. Sphinx with FOW back-up?

[dahcmai]

Careful study, you only need two in the yard for him. I just hard cast him third turn, which is a nice bonus to that guy. Gigantic Shroud Angels was the only real goal I had for it though since it seals up Zoo right then and there. It was a short trial I did, but it required a singleton tropical to pull off. I wanted the green fetches anyway to have a Dryad Arbor out of the board for BUG Landstill since they pack a ton of Edict effects and have Leylines on top of that. That match up is not fun.

Mimeoplasm costs three which isn't too bad, hard to CB, and acts like a Reanimate for an absolute monster. Stuff gets removed by him, but if it's the Angel involved it's almost always worth it. It was one of those things I thought required too much work to pull off and was chancy, but had some serious merit to it.

[jcsy]

more speed, more acceleration, buried alive, intuition, The mimeoplasm?

our spell, buried alive would drop these (using the common creatures we have) or perhaps some wilder creatures such as

It that betrays

Eg:
Empyrial archangel, Sphinx/Iona/Elesh Norn, Archon, Jin, and Mimeoplasm

In games where you resolve this, its absolute defence

Concept Decklist
Protection 12
4 spell pierce
4 fow
4 daze

Graveyard 10
4 entomb
4 buried alive
2 intuition

4 lotus petal
Acceleration 8
4 dark ritual

Creatures 8
1 mimeoplasm
3 jin
1 iona
1 sphinx
1 archon
1 empyrial

Reanimators 10
4 reanimate
4 exhume
2 animate dead

Land 12
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Verdant catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground sea
60

of course, spell pierce can be replaced with dispel, misdirection, etc

[RogueMTG]

Careful study, you only need two in the yard for him. I just hard cast him third turn, which is a nice bonus to that guy. Gigantic Shroud Angels was the only real goal I had for it though since it seals up Zoo right then and there. It was a short trial I did, but it required a singleton tropical to pull off. I wanted the green fetches anyway to have a Dryad Arbor out of the board for BUG Landstill since they pack a ton of Edict effects and have Leylines on top of that. That match up is not fun.

Mimeoplasm costs three which isn't too bad, hard to CB, and acts like a Reanimate for an absolute monster. Stuff gets removed by him, but if it's the Angel involved it's almost always worth it. It was one of those things I thought required too much work to pull off and was chancy, but had some serious merit to it.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but The Mimeoplasm costs 5 :-(.

Against Zoo my plan is still go for Sphinx. But you only do it blind if you're desperate. Ideally you'll clear the way with Duress/Sieze or have FoW back-up to keep him alive. Unanswered for even one or two swings is usually enough to put the game out of their reach.

[dahcmai]

Well, toss that idea then. Not sure why I had it in my head he costed 3. It was only a thought anyway. A good thought if he was 3cc, but crap at 5.

Sphinx huh, I guess I just keep getting into bad situations where they have enough to punch through everything and swords him anyway.

[Anselm]

Yes, the 3rd brainstorm is against discard. Also when you sideboard in a lot of cards and want to increase the smoothness of your draws. The only problem with brainstorm is that it's slow, and when you slow down the deck with sb cards, it gets better to have.

I play petals over ponder (or over 2 lands and something like a brainstorm, rather) because they are faster, duh. :) Seriously, Ponder is far too slow, and petals seem promising.

Against zoo, I try to go for jin first, and then sphinx the turn after. Really, if they are tapped out as they tend to be on turn 2, protecting a jin isn't that hard. And if it dies, you've drawn 7 cards and can go for sphinx and/or elesh next turn.

[jcsy]

even if it costed 5, it can be reanimated ^_^

[nastirth]

@kingsey

I call "fast" to the #2 garobidou setup that was optimized to have one of the highest reanimation % at turn 3. However, against control decks I felt the need for more library manipulation so I ended up with a 4 brainstorm version which has a little less t3 reanimation %.

My setup right now is:

4 entomb, 4 study, 1 researcher
4 reanimate, 3 ad, 3 exhume
4 FoW, 3 Daze, 4 Dispel (I only have 3 daze online, but maybe this is the right number. I'm finding dispel very usefull)
4 brainstorm
8 creatures
18 land

Sb
3 echoing truth
2 show and tell
2 needle
3 thoughtseize
5 creatures

Angel of Despair and Don are in sideboard. I never felt the need for them in mainboard. Angel is nice because it hits creatures (emrakul), and Don is good against multiple targets. I'm also testing sundering titan in sideboard (don't have enough feedback on it yet, but seems interesting against emerging rock decks). 2nd Iona always was there and always will be. 4th Jin is there too. And those are my reserve 5. But I want to test Balefire Dragon when it will be playable (replacing terastodon). It looks like a very nice adition to fight zoo, goyfs and kotrs.


Warning: Look out for your opponents graveyard when they have 3 mana open. Snapcaster Mage will be a pain.

[Water_Wizard]

I just wanted to share a link with everyone about a post-ban Reanimator deck. It includes 5 videos - the first discussing the deck construction and last 4 showing games in the Tournament Practice Room in MTGO. http://www.mtgoacademy.com/forcing-the-will-reanimator-v2/ Thanks to KillerOwen for creating the video and deck and his discussion!

[Anselm]

We need to talk about Echoing Truth vs Chain of Vapor again. I know it was discussed a number of pages back, but I simply don't agree with the conclusions. Like this:

Echoing Truth has two major pros: it can be cast after having reanimated something, and it can hit multiple copies of Leyline of the Void. The latter is almost irrelevant; the chance that the opponent gets two leylines, and that you draw one of your bounce cards, is extremely low. So is the former: once you've animated anything, you shouldn't really need to bounce any permanent.

However, costing 1 instead of 2 is huge in this 17-18 land deck, especially when you want to force it through with spell pierce or thoughtseize. I'm going with Chain of Vapor for the moment. Any thoughts on the matter?

[RogueMTG]

We need to talk about Echoing Truth vs Chain of Vapor again. I know it was discussed a number of pages back, but I simply don't agree with the conclusions. Like this:

Echoing Truth has two major pros: it can be cast after having reanimated something, and it can hit multiple copies of Leyline of the Void. The latter is almost irrelevant; the chance that the opponent gets two leylines, and that you draw one of your bounce cards, is extremely low. So is the former: once you've animated anything, you shouldn't really need to bounce any permanent.

However, costing 1 instead of 2 is huge in this 17-18 land deck, especially when you want to force it through with spell pierce or thoughtseize. I'm going with Chain of Vapor for the moment. Any thoughts on the matter?

Like it or not, Echoing Truth is your only out to Chalice of the Void @ 1. Which unfortunately has come up for me on more than one occasion. Having Chain of Vapor stuck in my hand pretty much sucked and I cut it down to a 1 of after that.

E-Truth also has some minor relevance bouncing Goblin/Zombie tokens against TES/Dredge, and I have bounced multiple copies of Tormod's Crypt & Relic of Progenitus before where if it was Chain I would have lost.

[whienot]

... and I have bounced multiple copies of Tormod's Crypt & Relic of Progenitus before where if it was Chain I would have lost.

Bouncing multiple Crypts/Relics isn't a play I would rely on. Opponents can simply sacrifice the Crypt/Relic targeted by the Echoing Truth to save the other copies.

For what it's worth, I think Echoing Truth is superior. It's a broader answer to legacy's cardpool, and versatility is key in our format.

[hofzge]

Don't you think it is more important to first discuss the maindeck configuration of protection spells between 3 Thoughtseize vs. 3 Spell Pierce vs. some mix of Spell Pierce and Dispel.

I personally favor Counterspells, as with those you can be reactive to what your opponent does and react with either Spell Pierce or Entomb (I like Spell Pierce a lot more than Dispel).

[Anselm]

You seem to board in the bounce against a much wider selection of decks than I do. I almost exclusively board it in if I know they have Leylines. Or in the mirror, I guess.

[Anselm]

Also, counterspells are a lot slower than discard. Keeping mana up means having 3 mana if you want to protect an exhume or animate dead, for example, and that's a lot in the 18 land deck that already has problems with stifle and wastelands.

[Sempra]

Why not run Wipe Away as the bounce spell. Opponents cant crack crypt in response. And players always wait untill you cast a reanimation spell before they crack crypt/relic. So u have time to stall the game abit, fill up youre graveyard and make sure u have enough mana to Wipe and reaniamte.

[whienot]

Wipe Away will become more relevant if/when the meta shifts back to Counterbalance. For now, I don't think it's necessary.

As for the Mental Misstep replacements, I'll be working with Thoughtseize and Misdirection.

[defector]

I am tuning up a reani list for the next indy scg 5K and looking for some advice. I don't have anything revolutionary in the deck, 3 Thought Seize and one Daze for MM replacements, 3 Jin etc. I run Echoing Truth out of the board. My question is about Merfolk. I expect to see a lot and haven't had a lot of testing opportunities vs the folk. With the Phantasmal Image killing our legends,what is the best approach vs merfolk? I was wondering about bringing Sheoldred in but he seems to narrow and still gets killed. I like the animate Elesh, reanimate Elesh, but can that really race them? Any ideas and or advice? Thanks!

[Goin Aggro]

I am tuning up a reani list for the next indy scg 5K and looking for some advice. I don't have anything revolutionary in the deck, 3 Thought Seize and one Daze for MM replacements, 3 Jin etc. I run Echoing Truth out of the board. My question is about Merfolk. I expect to see a lot and haven't had a lot of testing opportunities vs the folk. With the Phantasmal Image killing our legends,what is the best approach vs merfolk? I was wondering about bringing Sheoldred in but he seems to narrow and still gets killed. I like the animate Elesh, reanimate Elesh, but can that really race them? Any ideas and or advice? Thanks!

Blazing Archon.

The only splash that gives them game against it is White for StP. That, and submerge out the board. Mono Blue/UB is straight up cold to it in G1. And even if they have submerge, those extra few turns for them to actually get to 5 mana should give you adequate time to find protection and/or animate a few other creatures to assist.

I'm of the opinion the eight creatures run should be

3x Jin Gitaxias
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Blazing Archon
1x Terastodon (Keep in mind you can blow your own lands, 18 Power on the attack next turn is pretty ridiculous)

1x Your choice/Meta Choice. Going up to 4x Jin is perfectly acceptable, but Norn is still a good choice for aggro/tribal-heavy metagames. Perhaps Inkwell for control heavy metagames.

[KevinTrudeau]

So, tomorrow is the final Legacy tournament my store will have before the Mental Misstep ban will come into effect. Since Null Rod has been quite useless over these past few weeks, I'm thinking about simply replacing them with 2 Brainstorm that I'd board in against decks where I'd want to sculpt a Thoughtseize+other disruption turn and finally trying out the Garobidou #2 list. Seems like it could be very good.

[defector]

Thanks a lot guys, this is my 8 Man Plan for Indy:
Jin-Gitaxis, Core Augur X3
Sphinx of the Steel Wind X1
Iona, Shield of Emeria X1
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite X1
Terastadon X1
Blazing Archon X1

Now lets get some good draws:))

[KevinTrudeau]

Had a very amusing night despite going 1-2-1, drawing with Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogardan combo (1-1-1), losing to Bant Aggro w/ Prog (0-2), beating Dream Halls (2-0), and losing to UBR goodstuffs (1-2). Notes, observations, etc.:

-Round one was very entertaining. I go for a turn three Sphinx game one and see it get Extirpated. Ouch. He's able to assemble the long-winded and confusing combo in addition to Ensnaring Bridge before I can recover (Hapless Researcher unfortunately could not get there in time), drops Liliana Vess, and wins. I guess I should note I also cast three Mental Missteps that game, which was pretty sweet considering I'll never be able to do that again in the near future (or ever again). I won a drawn out game two through a Tormod's Crypt as time is called. Pretty fun round one.
-Round two was a good shellacking from my opponent, with him getting turn three Progenituses in both games with ample countermagic for my spells.
-Game one of round three was your classic T1 Entomb, T2 Reanimate with Force backup despite getting Thoughtseized hand. I cast Show and Tell on turn three of game two not exactly knowing what was going on (probably a mistake on my part) with his deck. I put in Rasta Don, he flips up one of my favorite cards of all-time, Dream Halls. I blow up one of his two lands, Dream Halls, and my Swamp. I then make one of my two assured mistakes of the night after I drew and cast Thoughtseize the next turn, taking Duress instead of Lotus Petal when he only had one land out. He rips an Ancient Tomb and casts Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I Brainstorm in response into a sick three of blue card, Force, Pithing Needle. He scoops.
-I win game one of round four because I drew both Brainstorms in the deck. I punt in game two by fetching up a Sea despite him having a Wasteland already out. Game three starts off with me countering a Dark Confidant and Reanimating it the next turn. The first flip reveals Elesh Norn. The second flip reveals Jin-Gitaxias, and it's all she wrote. I don't necessarily think that that was a bad line of play, and would still probably go through with it if I had the chance again (hand was Show and Tell, 2x Force, Reanimate with two lands out at the time ).
-Brainstorm actually came up dead a few times tonight, but I'd still run four if I had the chance again.

It was a good few weeks running with Mental Misstep. It'll be interesting to see how the deck will play out again in the coming weeks, as I don't think you can just replace the four Misstep slots with other forms of disruption and still have it be a DTB (although, who knows, maybe you can).

[nastirth]

Yesteday I packed my version with misdirections to our local tornament at which everyone agreed to enforce the new bannings. I replaced the mental misteps for the fourth daze and three misdirections. I marked the fourth daze and kept attention when i had it or misdirection in hand to compare with dispel or spell pierce in those positionns. Unfortunately there was few people and we only played three rounds. I 3-0ed the tournament beating burn, affinity and rock. There was only two situations where misdirection over dispel mattered. One of them was better misdirection beacuse i didnt had mana open, on the other was better dispel. Never felt the need for spell pierce over dispel. Before the tournament started, while waiting for more people to show, i played seven games without sideboard against merfolk and i won 6-1. Without MM it is a lot tougher to counter our entombs, and that is crucial in this matchup. I think this deck will keep very strong. The loss of MM has bad things but also has good things, as our entombs become much stronger. My concern right now is about snapcaster mage. Lets see if he doesnt do much damage to us.

[Marvelous]

I'm still trying out what to replace MM with. Misdirection seems interesting, but I'll have to wait and test some more before reporting back.

On another note, am I one of the few that runs Empyrial Archangel in MB? (I threw Inkwell to SB in favour of her). Her clock isn't terribly fast but she's been such a life saver for me too many times. Even helped stave off Progenitus with the help of Elesh a couple of times (even though that scenario isn't a valid reason to include a creature). Thoughts?

[Sturtzilla]

On another note, am I one of the few that runs Empyrial Archangel in MB? (I threw Inkwell to SB in favour of her). Her clock isn't terribly fast but she's been such a life saver for me too many times. Even helped stave off Progenitus with the help of Elesh a couple of times (even though that scenario isn't a valid reason to include a creature). Thoughts?

Please read the prior material in the thread. We have been back an forth about this creature inclusion. It is my personal opinion that it does not belong in the deck. I ran it for a good period of time and it was never really that stellar. I believe that Blazing Archon is just a better creature to fill that slot. Blazing Archon stops both Progenitus and Emrakul in their tracks as well as serving double duty against quick aggro decks including Merfolk, Zoo, Affinity, etc.

[zmattk]

The only issue I have with Misdirection in the main is that it is like playing extra Force of Wills. I'm not sure if the card loss from both is worth it. And if you play Misdirection in the side to board in over Force, I feel like there could be a better sideboard slot for the situations you would use Misdirection.

That being said, I only have limited testing with Misdirection so I'd love to hear some more feedback from people who have been playing it more.

[nastirth]

@Marvelous

I'm also one of the few who still runs Empyrial Archangel main. Like you, I replaced the inkwell slot with him. My personal opinion about empyrial archangel is that he rules against control decks, not against aggro. Note that Jin is usually the first target against control decks, but there are times where archangel will just win the game by himself, despite the opponent having a jace or karakas in play. For example against UW Stoneblade he rules, unless they get a jitte with mystic. I like having options, and empyrial archangel gives me another option that can be game decisive in certain situations.


@zmattk

I'm playtesting with dispel online and misdirection in real life. I'm still not sure what I prefer. Yesterday I won our local GPT Amsterdam running misdirections and they were better than anything else, because they worked like FoW allowing me to go off all tapped. I didn't feel any problems about pitching blue cards (in one situation I even pitched FoW to Misdirection, not loosing 1 life). Online, dispel is also serving me well, by being a hard counter against almost everything that matters against our deck. I'm not a big fan of spell pierce. Sure it can counter artifacts (relics) and sorceries, but it is not a hard counter and if the games lasts a little longer they become useless. Right now, based on my limited testing I'd go for misdirection, but this is just an initial impression.

[zmattk]

I've been playing with Dispels in the main and have been pretty satisfied. I've only had a few instances where I would have rather had Spell Pierce. I will probably test a bit with Misdirection as well.

Also, top 8 of SCG Indy has 2 Reanimator decks. I can't wait to see their lists tomorrow just to see what they decided to play.

[Zilla]

The top 16 lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2011-10-02&end_date=2011-10-02&city=Indianapolis) are already up with the Reanimator lists here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41113) and here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41108).

[catmint]

So much about Reanimator is weaker without MM as some people in this thread claimed. :)

[Goin Aggro]

The top 16 lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2011-10-02&end_date=2011-10-02&city=Indianapolis) are already up with the Reanimator lists here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41113) and here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41108).

Correct Solution to open deckspots: More Brainstorm. NOBUTSRSLY

But seriously. Hate to be that guy calling out the winners, (Yes, I know it worked for them) but why is Norn so popular now? I thought archon was just better, as some matchups, they can still push damage by Norn if they have enough creatures. (Zoo, Folk) Also,

The Creature suite they both ran was

3x Jin Gitaxias
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Angel of Despair

And then
Walton (4th)
+1x Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Is this the consensus base now? Are Terastodon/Iona/Blazing Archon out of the playbook now? As I thought they had been proven to be better than Empyrial and Angel of Despair (with respect to 'Rasty and Archon)

[Sloshthedark]

3 in top 16, two of them of weird design.. including winner, oh god just 3 CS 4 entomb? unbeaten? how can this work... no Iona, archangel? angel? ...players in america are mystery to me...

[Anselm]

Hopefully this means people will play more hate for a while, reanimator getting no finishes the next couple weeks, and then there's less hate for it in Amsterdam. Hopefully ...

(but if people start running leylines without even being black it seems really bad for us.)

[nastirth]

I agree with Anselm. On my gpt I went to the final against elves, and the player already knew me and packed 4 leyline and 3 relics/tormods... But the thing is, if they're playing leyline offcolor they have to mulligan agressivly to hate, and by doing that they loose power, and give us time to find the answer. That's what happened. He mulliganed agressively, played relic which I FoW'd, then tormod's. But had no fuel left, so I had time to dig for an echoing truth and seal the game.
But if they get lucky and have a leyline in the first seven, things become much more tough.
Let's hope the hate puts the deck a little under the radar again or else we'll have to save some sideboard slots for the mirror :tongue:

[Tinefol]

My set of creatures:
4 Jin (fckin srsly, if you play 3, a kitten dies somewhere)
1 Iona (you need this against combo)
1 Sphinx (zoo and other 'red' decks)
1 Archon (go Progenitus and all random shit, try to race this)
1 Norn (autowin against Dredge, Elves, etc)

And it works wonders, I almost never want to board a creature from S/B (I run 2 Terastodon + Inkwell).

Personally, I prefer Hapless Researchers to Ponder. A faster goldfish is just that good, with 8 good creatures, there's always something to pich. Don't waste time Pondering.

I could see ponder being better postboard, and that's only if you're looking to find antihate against Leylines.

[Goin Aggro]

I agree with Anselm. On my gpt I went to the final against elves, and the player already knew me and packed 4 leyline and 3 relics/tormods... But the thing is, if they're playing leyline offcolor they have to mulligan agressivly to hate, and by doing that they loose power, and give us time to find the answer. That's what happened. He mulliganed agressively, played relic which I FoW'd, then tormod's. But had no fuel left, so I had time to dig for an echoing truth and seal the game.
But if they get lucky and have a leyline in the first seven, things become much more tough.
Let's hope the hate puts the deck a little under the radar again or else we'll have to save some sideboard slots for the mirror :tongue:

You ran into someone packing seven slots of GY hate? that's insane..... I mean, I guess its elves, so you're only really worried about faster combo decks and dredge..... but.... seven slots!?!?!?!

[Goin Aggro]

I agree with Anselm. On my gpt I went to the final against elves, and the player already knew me and packed 4 leyline and 3 relics/tormods... But the thing is, if they're playing leyline offcolor they have to mulligan agressivly to hate, and by doing that they loose power, and give us time to find the answer. That's what happened. He mulliganed agressively, played relic which I FoW'd, then tormod's. But had no fuel left, so I had time to dig for an echoing truth and seal the game.
But if they get lucky and have a leyline in the first seven, things become much more tough.
Let's hope the hate puts the deck a little under the radar again or else we'll have to save some sideboard slots for the mirror :tongue:

You ran into someone packing seven slots of GY hate? that's insane..... I mean, I guess its elves, so you're only really worried about faster combo decks and dredge..... but.... seven slots!?!?!?!

[nastirth]

@Goin
Yep, that was a metagame decision on his part. He knew he had a good chance to face me sometime if he had to have a shot at the three byes, so he packed them. But the funny part is that he had a card in sideboard that could give me much much more trouble than the leylines: Choke. This card is pure evil against us. But he was so focused on gy hate that they stayed in the sideboard.

Nevertheless, expect a lot of hate from now on. Not of 7 cards of course, but at least 4, even because they are good fighting snapcaster mage, which I think it wasn't properly abused yet.

@Tinefol
I play almost the same 8 as you except I play with archangel instead of the 4th jin, and my kitten is perfectly fine :) - I do have the 4th jin in sb though. ;)

[jcsy]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_marsh_usary_vs_josh_wei.html

REANIMATOR WINS?! congratulations Reanimator

[dahcmai]

I was there also. I had the typical lists from here with a couple of small exceptions.

3 Jin, 1 Norn, 1 Angel, 1 Terastodon, 1 Sphinx, 1 Iona. Missteps were replaced by 4th Daze and 3 Misdirections.


Anyway, the reason Norn was so good was from just what's getting played again. Here's how my day went and you'll see why she's amazing.

1st round Eva green, Jin and Sheodred took that one. 2nd, I got raped by Painter since I thought it was diff deck and played against it stupidly. 3rd was Goblins, Norn tears him a new one. 4th was lands, Jin. 5th was Affinity, Norn tears him up. 6th was Goblins, Norn cleans house again. 7th was Hypergenesis, I'll mention that one in a sec. All in all though, Norn was a champ due to the aggro.

Had the weirdest game win ever. I got caught in game 3 against Hypergenesis not knowing he had Leylines. He drops one right off the bat and I just cringe. Didn't expect a GWR deck to drop that so I had no Echoing Truths to bounce it. I keep playing anyway trying to figure out how I can get around that. I didn't come up with much so I just started brainstorming and pondering into creatures. I didn't even board in Show and Tell since he had Emrakuls and Projos.

Third turn he plays a Cascade spell into Hypergenesis and I daze it. He tosses a Spirit Guide to pay it. Crap, wasn't expecting that so soon. He starts with Projo, I drop Sheodred, He has nothing else. I drop Jin and some other lands and such. Ouch. I guess you can gather how that went. Weirdest win ever.


Unfortunately, I had to leave early so I didn't get to play it out. Sucks too since I was doing well. I still had a shot at the money obviously. Friends didn't take off Monday from work with a 7 hour drive home. lol Good game, bad planning. Got 56th even with dropping with 2 rounds to go. Not hideous I guess.

[Master Shake]

Hey everybody, I am just sitting down to write my report but I wanted to go over a few points:

Elesh Norn kills a ton of decks and even if she get's plowed, you still Wrath them, most of the time. Blazing Archon is comparable and situationaly better, but Elesh Norn is better against more decks, so I play her in the main over the Archon

Angel of Despair over Terrastadon - The Evasion of Angel and the ability to kill anything makes it great for killing Jace, opposing Reanimated creatures off Exhume or really whatever, she generally kills about as fast (4 swings) as Terrastadon does when he destroys one of their permanents. I was going to play the 'Don in the board, but there just wasn't likely to the Counter-Top Thopters in the event due to the fact that control is harder to build in a new environment, which is really the only match where I would want him.

So, in replacing MMS, this is what I initially did +1 Ponder +1 Empyrial Archangel +1 Thoughtseize +1 Spell Pierce.

In testing, I was really, really liking Thoughtseize, even though I was concerned about the life loss, the format just is never going to be as aggressive as it had been prior to MMS, so I replaced the Spell Pierce with another. For the rest of the board, I was going to play a Flusterstorm, but Spell Pierce was probably just better and Dispel was very exciting and was quite good both of the times I cast it, but it wasn't really something that I wanted in the main.

A very quick breakdown of my matches

R1 Zoo 2-0
R2 Ugb Unearth TA (Mark Sun) 2-0
R3 Burn 2-0
R4 Meat Hooks (Slivers) 2-1
R5 UW Landstill 2-0
R6 UW Faeries 1-2
R7 UW Stoneblade 2-0
R8 Cat Sligh 2-1
R9 ID With friend playing T.E.S.
T8 Merfolk 2-0
T4 NO Bant 1-2

Full report should be posted Thursday. Look out for it if you're interested.

[Holden1669]

Master Shake - Congrats on top four and thanks for pushing the deck forward post-banning. I look forward to your report.

I have a general rules question about Jin-Gitaxias. If I reanimate him in my second main phase and then end my turn, does my opponent have a chance to get priority to try to kill him before his draw seven trigger goes on the stack? Will I end up at least drawing seven if he hits play in his situation? (barring stifle, etc). Thanks.

[Holden1669]

Master Shake - Congrats on top four and thanks for pushing the deck forward post-banning. I look forward to your report.

I have a general rules question about Jin-Gitaxias. If I reanimate him in my second main phase and then end my turn, does my opponent have a chance to get priority to try to kill him before his draw seven trigger goes on the stack? Will I end up at least drawing seven if he hits play in his situation? (barring stifle, etc). Thanks.

[Goin Aggro]

Alright here's how I think this works in terms of Priority.

Cast JG, Pass to Opponent, Opponent has no plays, JG enters play.

From that point, I think you have to pass priority once more in between the two of you in order for you to enter the end step.

So JG Enters play, You have no more plays, and pass to opponent. They could remove it at this point with instant speed removal and prevent you from drawing seven before the end step trigger.

[Darklingske]

Sunday I took Reanimator for a spin in a local GPT. I played a mixed list with misdirection, Ponder, Brainstorm & Thoughtseize. Creatures were: 3 Jin, 1 Iona, 1 Archon, 1 Inkwell, 1 Sphinx ot Steel wind, 1 Angel of Despair. SB contains 1 Elesh, 1 extra Sphinx, 4 Leyline ot Void, 2 Extractions, 3 Show & Tell, 1 Rebuild, 1 Empirial Archangel, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Wipe Away. Only 15 players, so only 4 rounds and a top 4.
R1 win 2-1 against NORUg. Jin goes all the way.
R2 win 2-0 against The gate. Monocolor & Iona= extreme love and easy wins.
R3 loss 1-2 against Goblins. One game mana-flooded and second game he played warren weirding 2 times and just run me over.
R4 win 2-0 against Team America. Jin again goes all the way.
I make top 4 and again play against Team America and Goblins. This time Jin (TA) and Iona (Goblins) make it for me. I win 3 byes for Amsterdam and go home a happy man.

[Master Shake]

Alright here's how I think this works in terms of Priority.
So JG Enters play, You have no more plays, and pass to opponent. They could remove it at this point with instant speed removal and prevent you from drawing seven before the end step trigger.

This is accurate. Both players need to pass priority to end the main phase, and if he makes it to your end step, before the opponent get's priority, the trigger goes on the stack, so if they kill him in the endstep, you'll still be drawing cards.

[Haakon]

I have a question

When do you sideboard show and tell?

And in this (these) case(s), what's the sideboarding?

In particular I'd like to ask how is the MU vs team america and which can be a good sideboard

[Goin Aggro]

You sideboard show and tell if you suspect that your opponent is going to be bringing in a heavy amount of graveyard hate against you. Some people preemptively side them G2 if they suspect hate, but it does slow you down compared to the normal T1 Entomb/Study and then T2 Exhume/Reanimate/Animate

It bypasses all of the graveyard shenanigans that we would have to do in order to bypass a Crypt, Relic, or Leyline at the cost of waiting until T3 to "Go Off" and possibly giving your opponent a creature drop.

In terms of who/what you side it in against and for, I wouldn't be able to answer as well as some of the other people who frequent this thread, so grab an answer from them.

[nastirth]

Yep, show and tell is nice when you don't know what to expect since it dodges all graveyard hate. I usually trade it for the least efficient reanimation spell for the matchup (sometimes is animate dead, sometimes is exhume and other times is reanimate)

[damionblackgear]

This is accurate. Both players need to pass priority to end the main phase, and if he makes it to your end step, before the opponent get's priority, the trigger goes on the stack, so if they kill him in the endstep, you'll still be drawing cards.

The other thing that may happen is they do it second main phase before the trigger goes on the stack. If that happens you either have to re-reanimate or not draw cards. The good thing is that it doesn't go from their spell to the endstep. You can continue your second main phase.

[defector]

Congrats to Master Shake! I was at Indy running reani as well. I watched your first series in the top 8 and I was beaten earlier that day by the guy that got you. NO Bant is really tough for this deck, but what can you do, great day and congrats!! I agree with you completely about Angel and Elesh. I think thats the best package for the current meta, I ran Elesh and the elephant and never had a scenario where angel wouldn't have been better. Anyway, good job on a great day!

[Haakon]

Yep, show and tell is nice when you don't know what to expect since it dodges all graveyard hate. I usually trade it for the least efficient reanimation spell for the matchup (sometimes is animate dead, sometimes is exhume and other times is reanimate)

yes but...you sideboard always show and tell?

I would say...there are some MU vs which is preferable to side it or not?

please, describe some scenario to have an idea

[Choobak]

Hello,

I'd like to know something : in Europe, some people try reanimator with 4 gitaxian probe. And here (in USA, i mean), i have the feeling it is not a card you want in the deck. Am I right ?
Who try it ? What is your feeling about the card after try it ?

[dahcmai]

I tried it, but it has that same problem that I have with Street Wraith. You have no clue what that next card is going to be and sometimes that really matters. More often than not to be exact.

Getting information about someone's hand is amazing stuff especially for free, but I can't justify it in this deck since it's so reliant on having the pieces to do what you need. If you already have the reanimate and entomb, what is your play? Yeah, you go for it. There's no needing to know what they have really.

There's not going to be much you can do to change the outcome no matter what anyway. It's a nicety, but I just don't think it's worth it myself. That's just me though. And I have 4 foils of that card, I love the thing for the most part. I just don't think it fits here too well unless I am playing against BUG landstill, then I would kill to know what they have. That deck drives me crazy.

[nastirth]

@haakon
My usual sb for the second game is 2 echoing truth and 2 show and tell, then I'll adjust in the 3rd game depending on my opponent hate strategy. Of course if you play against decks with mr. projo or emrakul you shouldn't play show and tell unless you also board in thoughtseizes.

@Choobak
I've tested a version with gitaxian probe, but it wasn't worthwile. It's a neat thing but I always prefered to have a solid disruption spell or even a better cantrip than those.

@dahcmai
Against BUG landstill I love empyrial archangel. If I can snitch it into play its almost always gg. They can't touch it, which means no land shenaningans, they can only kill it with edict or innocent blood, and he absorbs all damage from manlands. Just take time to sculpt the hand and fill it up with disruption, don't try to go fast or you'll be countered/edited easily. It is a tough match, but I'm having success with this formula. From sideboard comes thoughtseize which is awesome in the matchup.

[zmattk]

My problem with Gitaxian Probe is that it would be taking a spot in the deck that is better suited as another card. I believe the only real flex slot right now is the MM slot. If you pay 2 life for the free look with probe and you see they have enough counters to stop you, then Thoughtseize would have been a better 2 life spent. If you pay the one blue mana for probe, why not use that mana to counter something with Spell Pierce/Dispel. It's not a bad card, but it just cannot fit into our 75.

[dahcmai]

Oh I know how to play against BUG landstill, it's just an annoyingly rough match up due to all the edicts and Leylines on top of it. Pushing through an Echoing Truth through to bounce a leyline against a deck packed with counters just sucks too.

[HAVE HEART]

The best time to bring in Show and Tell is against decks running the color black. You should probably take out Careful Study when bringing in Show and Tell. I also think adding an 18th land out of the sideboard is really strong when bringing in Show and Tell.

Otherwise, just bring in a couple of bounce spells/Pithing Needle/Null Rod. A combination of those three adding up for four or five slots should be enough with all the filtering the deck can achieve.

[Benke]

I have a question regarding Archon vs Elesh.

I'm going to play a tournament tomorrow, and I still haven't decided which one to put in main. My own reasoning comes to the conclusion that Blazing Archon is the better choice, but from what I read/decks I look at people tend to think different.

Archon Pros (not shared by Elesh):
1) Fights big guys (emrakul/prog)
2) Not legendary (Karakas is a bitch)

Elesh pros (Not shared by Archon)
1) Whipes the board, not only halts it (confidants, stoneforge, basicly any value creature)
2) Cost 2 less life to reanimate (often not relevant)
3) Boosts your own guys (Not very often it happends, but gogo 3/3 hapless)


The rest of my list is rather standard, but would really appreciate some advice


I also had a question ragarding my creature base:
4 Jin
1 Empyrical
1 Archon
1 Iona

7 in total. Should I go up to 8? And is Sphinx a MUST? I know its good vs red- (goblins etc) and zoo'ish decks, but Iona seem to do the same job and at the same time have more potential against other decks.
I keep a sphinx in the SB, since I didn't use it that often.

[Tinefol]

Put both. They don't fulfill the same role. Or at least split them between main and s/b.

[dahcmai]

I am slowly just starting to hate that Sphinx more and more. I rarely go get him vs anything unless I want his lifegain. That's about it. Elesh takes care of most everything for me. Especially in the Goblins case. She curb stomps them. I'm half tempted to just get some other sort of lifegain.

[defector]

I think Archon belongs in the board and Elesh main, too good vs too many decks. Also, Elesh combined with Archangel is quite strong. If you can find me a better lifegainer than Sphinx please post. I hate that card, then I love it, then I hate it. I can't find anything better to work with though. I think the best 8 man plan is Jin X3, Iona X1, Elesh X1, Sphinx X1, Empyrial X1, Angel of Despair X1. That's what I have settled on. This is a fantastic deck and can shift that line up to stay in tune with the meta. I'd really like to find a replacement for Jin, so much dismember running around and you can't guarantee to stick him to end step. Anyway, its tough and you have to go with the line up that you feel the most comfortable with. There is so much quibbling and no clear way to prove the best, I just go with what feels the most comfortable.

[Darksteel]

I'd really like to find a replacement for Jin, so much dismember running around and you can't guarantee to stick him to end step.

I don't think there's a replacement for Jin, honestly. He's really what makes the deck insanely good, along with Entomb. =P

Anyway, I decided I'd try some variations on the deck, the first of which being the addition of Lotus Petals and Spell Pierce. It seems pretty good, for the most part.

4 Jin-Gitaxias
1 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
1 Angel of Despair (So good)

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Hapless Researcher

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Various Blue Fetchlands
4 Various Black Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:

1x Blazing Archon
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Iona
4x Stifle
2x Pithing Needle
3x Echoing Truth
2x Show and Tell

I went 3-0 in a local three round Legacy tournament with this list earlier tonight. I'm not sure if my wins were mainly due to luck or a decent build, to be honest. Nevertheless, the deck feels fairly smooth.

The first round was against a B/W Deadguy-like deck. The first game was easily sealed with a quick Iona on white (he had no non-white removal). The second game involved me topdecking an Echoing Truth to bounce his pre-game Leyline of the Void and getting out Jin-Gitaxias and an Angel of Despair to kill his only blocker, a Jotun Grunt.

The second round was against ANT. Game one, I won the die roll and got out the classic second turn Jin-Gitaxias, which sealed the game as I drew into plenty of countermagic. The second game was pretty much the same. I got lucky that I was able to counter his Brainstorm which would have sculpted his hand near perfectly, from what he showed me afterward.

The final round was against Junk Depths. First game was ended quickly with Jin-Gitaxias, along with my reanimating one of his own Tarmogoyfs.

The second game was very long. I managed to get out the Empyrial Archangel I sideboarded in and got him down to 7 with it until he managed to kill it with a combined Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary attack.

I managed to get out Sphinx the next turn, though, and kept his Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary at bay, getting him to one life before he was able to fetch his Maze of Ith with Knight.

We played draw-go for quite a few turns until I managed to get out five lands and two Lotus Petals, with which I hardcasted Angel of Despair to kill his Maze and win. That was hilarious.

Anyway, my liking of Angel of Despair has greatly increased, for sure. I vastly prefer it to Terastodon, mainly because of its ability to hit creatures.

Elesh Norn main wasn't relevant tonight, but she has definitely been amazing against Goblins/Merfolk/Elves/etc in the past. I prefer her over Archon in the main, as well.

Sphinx was pretty good tonight. First Strike and Vigilance is a great combination on its own, not to mention the lifelink, the ability to pitch to Force in a pinch, and protection from a bunch of good creatures. It's definitely a powerhouse.

[Kryptor]

@ Darksteel:

I am trying to understand Reanimator Decks because i want to play it. So i got a few Questions about your List.



4 Jin-Gitaxias
1 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
1 Angel of Despair (So good)

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Hapless Researcher

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Various Blue Fetchlands
4 Various Black Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:

1x Blazing Archon
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Iona
4x Stifle
2x Pithing Needle
3x Echoing Truth
2x Show and Tell


1) you aren´t playing Brainstorms. Why not ? You play 16 Fetch. Brainstorm is very good with fetchies and you are playing a lot of them. Reanimator is still a combo deck, so you need to find combo pieces like entomb and a reanimate spell.

2) you got 2 Shroud creatures in your Board. Are there some matches where you need both of them or do they go in maindeck in some special situation ?

3) you got 4 Stifles, what made you playing Stifle over Needle ? Needle can block a Karakas forever, while Stifle just works 1 time (for anti hate like Crypts there is no different). I can´t imagin that you are playing these because of storm cobo decks or some. They should be just dead after a 2nd round Gin.

4) you got a needle and a show and Tell plan in your sideboard. I think i understood needle/bounce plan for antihate. But if you decide to board in Show and Tell aren´t there normaly go 3 TS in too ?

I would play something like that

3 Jin-Gitaxias
1 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Angel of Despair

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm

4 Polluted Delta
3 Various Blue Fetchlands
2 Various Black Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard:

1x Blazing Archon
1x Iona
2x Stifle

2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle

3x Show and Tell
3x Thoughtseize

I dont want to teach you about your deck or something, i just want to understand the reasons why playing some cards over others.

[Goin Aggro]

How does one go about winning the Reanimator Mirror? Are there some key chokepoints or plays that should be looked out for/abused?

[Benke]

Went 3-2 and missed top8 (by like 1 point :( ) in a tournament yesterday.

Since the meta was extremely control heavy I did not miss Sphinx in main at all. I also decided to have Elesh main (instead of Archon) and that helped me alot, even against a karakas in play.

I often got mana screwed after having my fetches stifled. I run 3 spell pierce in main but how careful I even played, my opponents (the ones I lost to, only control guys) always had one more counter leaving me without any gas.

Even though I didn't do very good this tournament, I'm still happy with the deck. There was A LOT of GY-hate in various forms that made it hard to sideboard.

One problem I had (and still have) is that I suck at side boarding. I often want to board in a lot but not sure what to remove :)


The list I ran was:

CREATURES (9)
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Hapless Researcher
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Animate Dead
SORCERIES (12)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Careful Study

INSTANTS (19)
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
LANDS (17)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Terastodon
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell

- I know my mana fetch variation was bad, I'm working on getting more.

[Benke]

Double post

[mdc1010]

So there wasn't even 1 Reanimator in the top 16 in the SCG open this weekend.. What happened?

[Master Shake]

Snappy happened.

I've seen you posting all over The Source for the last couple of months and I have to say, none of the posts I've seen with your name attached have been helpful in any context. While I am happy to see that you're interested in trying to help and respond to people, it is a bit troubling that your primary concern is trying to generate imaginary Source cred by attempting to one-up others and make witty comments. I don't know why the moderators have been so lax with your posts, but I'm reporting this one. I'd really like to see you bring your post quality up, since you seem to have something to say on every subject.


So there wasn't even 1 Reanimator in the top 16 in the SCG open this weekend.. What happened?

Well, just as Indianapolis was a single tournament, so was Nashville. What happened? Well, that's a complicated question. Local metagames, Nashville isn't exactly a hub of Legacy like the North East or areas around Michigan. Perhaps people were prepared, or perhaps people were more interested in beating the deck over playing it. There are many factors, but it isn't really reasonable to look at one event and ask "Why didn't this deck appear?" In a format as diverse as Legacy, a lot of things can happen, and considering that the dominant deck generally makes up no more than 10% of a metagame, it shouldn't be surprising when the dominant deck doesn't make an appearance.

What happened? Perhaps this is a better question to ask if this trend keeps up for several weeks. I think the better question is, how is Belcher making Top 16 twice in a row? Some people have balls of steel.



In other news, I forgot to post a link to my report here; so here it is for anyone that wants to see what my experiences with the deck were:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/breaking-the-indy-curse-4th-scg-open-indy/

[DrHealex]

I'd like to kick in an observation from nashville, of which being that combo and reanimator were definitely well represented. I look forward to the impending TMI report as always. There did seem to be an even larger amount of blue based decks and perhaps people even upping their grave hate in the board (i saw ALOT more leylines in play/sbs/decks than usual) was too much for this deck to overcome.

[KevinTrudeau]

In other news, I forgot to post a link to my report here; so here it is for anyone that wants to see what my experiences with the deck were:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/breaking-the-indy-curse-4th-scg-open-indy/

Very well-written report, cool to see that you made t8 even though the majority of your matches were against blue decks. Loved the Game Genie analogy. I liked your inclusion of Thoughtseize in the main, as I assumed that to be the best replacement for Misstep right off the bat; did you ever at any point feel that another piece of permission would have been superior in its place (Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Dispel, etc.)?

[Master Shake]

Very well-written report, cool to see that you made t8 even though the majority of your matches were against blue decks. Loved the Game Genie analogy. I liked your inclusion of Thoughtseize in the main, as I assumed that to be the best replacement for Misstep right off the bat; did you ever at any point feel that another piece of permission would have been superior in its place (Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Dispel, etc.)?

For the main, I never really wanted anything else except against Burn or Zoo, which are pretty good anyway. For the slower decks where they aren't going to put a ton of pressure on you until turn 3-4, that's where Thoughtseize is really good, it takes either the disruption or the Stoneforge/Equipment it grabbed.

It was even great against the Snapcaster decks becuase Snapcaster isn't really a live play for them until roughly turn 4, which is incredibly slow against Reanimator.

I'm not totally positive that I approached every match properly and there is a lot of room for the deck to grow in both card choices and how to approach each deck, but I feel that despite not seeing it in the Top 16 of this most recent event, it's a strong choice.

(But really, Elves made Top 8, what's with that?)

[Water_Wizard]

Master Shake,
Congrats and excellent tournament post! Regarding Round 4 sb, what was your 5th card? Spell Pierce? I appreciate your thoroughness and advice about sideboard changes - helps a novice legacy player like myself. If you don't mind, I have two questions. Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro? Secondly, I noticed you only sideboarded 1 S&T in 1 match. Against what match-ups would you have brought in all 3?
Thank you!

[Goin Aggro]

I know I asked this question a page or so back, but it looks to have gotten lost in the aftermath of the Open discussion.

I'd ask again, what do you guys do to win the mirror match? Sideboard Strategies? Are there chokepoints where you can force your opponent to act and then take the advantage?

Master Shake, Any input?

[KevinTrudeau]

I know I asked this question a page or so back, but it looks to have gotten lost in the aftermath of the Open discussion.

I'd ask again, what do you guys do to win the mirror match? Sideboard Strategies? Are there chokepoints where you can force your opponent to act and then take the advantage?

Master Shake, Any input?

I don't have a lot of experience with the mirror, but I know a few things:

-Don't prematurely cast Careful Study and walk right into an opponent's Animate Dead/Reanimate (the biggest thing to keep in mind).
-Discard effects (Thoughtseize, Duress) seem like they'd be at a premium, especially when you consider you can reanimate their stuff.
-Symmetrical effects seem pretty bad (Exhume, Show and Tell), but don't necessarily auto-exclude them, especially if you're following tip #2.
-Board out all of the anti-creature targets, except possibly Blazing Archon (Elesh, Archangel, Sphinx, etc.).
-Board in your disruption— games will probably be a bit slower because the opponent will also likely be bringing in more disruption, and this is a combo deck after all (this tip might be completely wrong).
-Bounce effects could potentially win you games, so keep Echoing Truth in mind when you're boarding.


Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro?

I don't want to speak for him, but I think the recent inclusion of the previously neglected Archangel is because the deck just lost four hard counters to Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, it's an arguably better maindeck shroud target than Inky because a large percentage of blue decks can race Inky with Batterskull, it has evasion, and it has an added bonus (or a potential liability) against aggro. Note that Archangel won't do anything against Storm because Tendrils of Agony causes life loss.

[dahcmai]

I'm a fan of Angel for another odd reason. In testing, I used her to hold off Progenitus. She takes the hit, goes to the yard and I reanimated her while Jin or another (usually Jin) kept the beatings on. If he stopped attacking, the angel would swing in. With Jin out, reanimate effects are pretty unlimited. Eventually, I would take it no matter what even with that monster on the table.

I kind of wanted to keep the ability to do that since No RUG didn't really lose too much from Misstep being banned. No RUG wasn't really a close match even with Misstep unless they popped off a third turn Projo, but it never hurts to have good outs to things like that.

She's also one of the best for BUG Landstill. They have Innocent Bloods and other Edicts, but if they don't have one or you board into a Dryad Arbor to stall them off a little, she's pretty golden at pushing through with a Jace and Mishra's out.



I liked having a single Coffin Purge for the Mirror, that thing was just mean. It's a good entomb target and completely is hidden until you pop it on them. Seriously good tech for the mirror.

[Water_Wizard]

I don't want to speak for him, but I think the recent inclusion of the previously neglected Archangel is because the deck just lost four hard counters to Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, it's an arguably better maindeck shroud target than Inky because a large percentage of blue decks can race Inky with Batterskull, it has evasion, and it has an added bonus (or a potential liability) against aggro. Note that Archangel won't do anything against Storm because Tendrils of Agony causes life loss.

Kevin,
Thanks! Makes sense. I know Master Shake also mentioned that aggro/combo tends to be the dominant archtype during a format rotation, so it makes sense that Archangel would be good in the meta. Additionally, thanks for the clarification on Tendrils, because prior to your post, I was thinking that was one of the primary reasons for playing Emyprical. Also, both of the top two decks at SCG Indy only ran 3 Jin. Currently, I'm running 4, but with Entomb, 3 is probably fine. I noticed Josh Weinundy put Iona in the board. Perhaps the meta is different online, but I play so many mono color (burn, elves) decks, that Iona is just too good to not have in the main. I moved Blazing Archon to the board, as it seems like Elesh and/or Iona are 1st/2nd targets for me. The only time I really want Archon is against Sneak & Show or Progen, but I haven't faced those match-ups much. Additionally, why did Weinundy run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Is this to turn his fetches into swamps or is it for use with Sundering Titan? It seems like this card may have greater potential to help your opponent.

[Master Shake]

...Additionally, why did Weinundy run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Is this to turn his fetches into swamps or is it for use with Sundering Titan? It seems like this card may have greater potential to help your opponent.


This is a holdover from Eli Kassi's lists where he would play Hymn to Tourach in the sideboard and Grive Titan in the sidebaord. The only real reason to play it is if you're expecting to hard cast a threat, and it just isn't going to happen.



Master Shake, Any input?

Regarding the Mirror, Kevin covered a lot of it. I'll just add this:

From my list, I would sideboard like this:

-1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind -1 Elesh Norn +1 Blazing Archon +1 Inkwell Leviathan

This keeps your creature count the same, which may seem contradictory, but these cards are the best creatures. If you like, you can cut Inkwell for a different card, but I don't think it's ideal.

-3 Exhume, -3 Daze -2 Careful Study +3 Spell Pierce +1 Thoughtseize +1 Echoing Truth +1 Wipe Away +2 Dispel. This will give you tools to fight a long game. Dispel is excellent to hit opposing Entombs as well as countermagic. You may want to consider keeping Daze in on the play, and it may be right to keep it in on the draw as well, but cuts do get tricky before too long.


Master Shake,
Congrats and excellent tournament post! Regarding Round 4 sb, what was your 5th card? Spell Pierce? I appreciate your thoroughness and advice about sideboard changes - helps a novice legacy player like myself. If you don't mind, I have two questions. Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro? Secondly, I noticed you only sideboarded 1 S&T in 1 match. Against what match-ups would you have brought in all 3?
Thank you

I believe it was Wipe Away.

[DragoFireheart]

I've seen you posting all over The Source for the last couple of months and I have to say, none of the posts I've seen with your name attached have been helpful in any context. While I am happy to see that you're interested in trying to help and respond to people, it is a bit troubling that your primary concern is trying to generate imaginary Source cred by attempting to one-up others and make witty comments. I don't know why the moderators have been so lax with your posts, but I'm reporting this one. I'd really like to see you bring your post quality up, since you seem to have something to say on every subject.


- I'm not trying to be witty but if the length of my posts is the issue then I apologize.

Snapcaster Mage is going to be a huge issue for this deck due to the fact that he can Flashback Cranial Extraction. This basically allows every blue deck to in a sense have 8 Extractions, with 4 costing 1U. I think that is going to be a serious challenge for this deck, never mind the fact that decks like Team America can flash back Extirpate and there isn't much that can be done about it.

Edit: Change that cranial to Surgical Extraction. Lmao.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I was thinking Drago "...wtf is he talking about cranial extraction for again?" lol.

In the mirror I'd say disruption is key. You always want to disrupt them and most importantly you get INFORMATION about what their hand is like when you thoughtseize and duress them. In every combo mirror I've played I've always wanted to know what's in my opponents hand so I know when to pull the trigger or know what I have to counter as well as slowing the opponent down. Or you can just protect your own combo by stripping their FoW, daze, or whatever countermagic they're holding so you can get jin or some other gambreaker into play.

More people are SBing for this deck though; I keep seeing surgical extractions in SBs all over the place and I can't blame them. Surgical extraction is sweet with snapcaster and is just a decent SB card in general. This deck can still fight through anything though what with the show and tells just circumventing gravehate completely and being a must counter for the opponent or else they lose in all likelihood.

[jcsy]

The protection package :

4 FOW
3 Daze
2-3 Thoughtseize

Pre Jin, Thoughtseize is better

Post Jin, the drawing 7 will make Force&Daze better but Thoughtseize dead in hand because Jin is going to discard it anyhow, or lose 2 life to get rid of a potentially a LAND :D

in all this, its hard finding a mix of Pre Jin or Post Jin

Build 1
Do you play 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce (to make Post Jin insane)

Build 2
or you play 4, FOW, 3 Daze, 4 Thoughtseize (to make Pre Jin safe)


Comparison
I realized Build 1's power of the Draw 7 picks many counters up, and protects what ever that they are going to cast anyways
I realized this when I dropped Jin and drew 2 Thoughtseizes (Build 2), no counters and Jin was already doing the dirty work of discarding. Felt like dead cards

Tough choice, tough choice

What say you?

I still believe in a mix, or perhaps just ALL of it :D

[zmattk]

The protection package :

4 FOW
3 Daze
2-3 Thoughtseize

Pre Jin, Thoughtseize is better

Post Jin, the drawing 7 will make Force&Daze better but Thoughtseize dead in hand because Jin is going to discard it anyhow, or lose 2 life to get rid of a potentially a LAND :D

in all this, its hard finding a mix of Pre Jin or Post Jin

Build 1
Do you play 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce (to make Post Jin insane)

Build 2
or you play 4, FOW, 3 Daze, 4 Thoughtseize (to make Pre Jin safe)


Comparison
I realized Build 1's power of the Draw 7 picks many counters up, and protects what ever that they are going to cast anyways
I realized this when I dropped Jin and drew 2 Thoughtseizes (Build 2), no counters and Jin was already doing the dirty work of discarding. Felt like dead cards

Tough choice, tough choice

What say you?

I still believe in a mix, or perhaps just ALL of it :D

I'm personally playing 3 thoughtseize, 4 force, and 3 daze atthe moment. My reasoning is game one, thoughtseize pretty much acts as a counter as well as revealing your opponents hand to give you valuable information. Yes it sucks having thoughtseize being useless after Jin discards your opponents hand but at that point you should be in a pretty good position to win. I have dispels and spell pierce in the board in case I need to win counter wars.

I should also note the meta is shifting away from heavy counters at the moment. No deck besides merfolk can really fit more than 8 counters in the main so I feel thoughtseize is the correct choice since it hits all form of hate our deck might see.

[jcsy]

found many recent builds with Brainstorm and Ponder, making Top8's

i am impressed that though we have "mathematically" adjusted without Brainstorm and Ponders, our deck is a little more consistent, these Top8's proves otherwise

I think its more of a mix of the sideboard games, where digging and completing a combo and god hand, matters. hiding from discard is secondary i feel.

at the end of the day, its a choice for players either to run 2 or 4 brainstorms, and how comfortable they feel with none at all

while most of us know how the deck should roughly look like now, its about tweaking sideboard and sometimes decisions in each game

roughly we know how many creatures, how many protection, how many discard and how many reanimations we need. i am confident we are moving alot forward now and hopefully it remains as DTB!

[hofzge]

I think the builds with 4 Brainstorm and with Ponder have made up a lot of ground lately due to everyone packing more grave hate and discard (a shift in the control decks from predominantely UW Stoneforge to UB Snapcaster).

These build are slower preboard, but have a much better game postboard when facing hate. Brainstorm helps against both and Ponder helps rebuilding your hand against discard. Also they run less risk of drawing 3 reanimation spells and no targets or no discard spell (this would also be a reason to run Thoughtseize as it is a combo cards for your deck - even if revealing your hand can be kind of suboptimal).

[say no to scurvy]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but now that we've reached 10 cc/lifeloss reanimation targets with Jin, is duress or thoughtseize the correct disruption spell?

[Darklingske]

In my opinion, Thoughtseize is the correct one. Why? My meta is being flooded with Team America featuring the new star Snapcaster mage! And since Duress can't take creatures and snapcaster thus renders your discard rather useless, I prefer TS. And not to mention that you can TS yourself to bin a fattie. But that's my opinion of course... And I still play Duress in the SB.

[Water_Wizard]

Guys,
I think Reanimator is dead - at least in the online community. I realize it did well in Indy, but with the recent banning of Misstep and inclusion of ISD online (the online rotation is about 2 weeks behind real life - misstep banned Oct. 12 and ISD became legal Oct. 13), I have just been getting pillaged.
Here is the reason why. Before misstep ban / ISD, I faced a lot of permanent grave-hate (Void, Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb), but after the rotation, I've been destroyed by extirpate, extraction, purify. I usually win game 1, but have been having a really difficult post-board match. I've been seeing the instant grave hate much more often, and this essentially makes reanimator a 3-card combo (some type of discard to clear their hand, something to put your creature in the graveyard, and something to reanimate). I've tried show & tell, but this is still vulnerable to counterspells / STP. I find it's a lot harder to keep Jin alive without MM for STP/PTE. With only 4 hard counters, it's really difficult to keep him alive. Also, with the inclusion of more instant-speed grave hate and less permanent grave-hate, I find Echoing Truth and Needle are a lot less useful from the board.
Last night I faced U/Wb fish which ran Extirpate and UB Storm, which also ran Extirpate and Echoing Truth (???). Maybe I should play a few more rounds, but I'm frustrated. Before MM ban, I was doing well with reanimator, now, it's been rough. I think I'm putting this deck on the shelf, at least until the meta cools off and sideboard choices shift. My contention, and the major reason for this post is this: Against permanent gy hate (void, relic, ooze, relic), I think this deck has a fighting chance (especially if a deck is not running W for STP). If there is instant speed gy hate (esp. extirpate), it is just too hard to bring a creature into play and protect it. Last night, I just didn't have enough discard and protection to stave off extirpate and stp and force a reanimation spell/S&T through a counterspell - on the few chance I did reanimate a creature, it was gone the next turn. Thoughts? Support? 1-800 line?

[Master Shake]

Guys,
I think Reanimator is dead - at least in the online community. I realize it did well in Indy, but with the recent banning of Misstep and inclusion of ISD online (the online rotation is about 2 weeks behind real life - misstep banned Oct. 12 and ISD became legal Oct. 13), I have just been getting pillaged.
Here is the reason why. Before misstep ban / ISD, I faced a lot of permanent grave-hate (Void, Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb), but after the rotation, I've been destroyed by extirpate, extraction, purify. I usually win game 1, but have been having a really difficult post-board match. I've been seeing the instant grave hate much more often, and this essentially makes reanimator a 3-card combo (some type of discard to clear their hand, something to put your creature in the graveyard, and something to reanimate). I've tried show & tell, but this is still vulnerable to counterspells / STP. I find it's a lot harder to keep Jin alive without MM for STP/PTE. With only 4 hard counters, it's really difficult to keep him alive. Also, with the inclusion of more instant-speed grave hate and less permanent grave-hate, I find Echoing Truth and Needle are a lot less useful from the board.
Last night I faced U/Wb fish which ran Extirpate and UB Storm, which also ran Extirpate and Echoing Truth (???). Maybe I should play a few more rounds, but I'm frustrated. Before MM ban, I was doing well with reanimator, now, it's been rough. I think I'm putting this deck on the shelf, at least until the meta cools off and sideboard choices shift. My contention, and the major reason for this post is this: Against permanent gy hate (void, relic, ooze, relic), I think this deck has a fighting chance (especially if a deck is not running W for STP). If there is instant speed gy hate (esp. extirpate), it is just too hard to bring a creature into play and protect it. Last night, I just didn't have enough discard and protection to stave off extirpate and stp and force a reanimation spell/S&T through a counterspell - on the few chance I did reanimate a creature, it was gone the next turn. Thoughts? Support? 1-800 line?

The best advice that you're going to be able to get is that you need to be able to change with the metagame. If they are going to hate out Reanimator, play a deck that preys on what they are trying to do. There are times where it becomes difficult to pilot the deck and if that's the case, adapt.

If you want to try to keep fighting this battle, your sideboard needs to have a few things

1. Pithing Needle and bounce spells: you use these against non-black decks to hit the graveyard hate.
2. Show and Tell - To get around any deck that is going to try Leyline or Surgical Extraction
3. Dispel/Spell Pierce To give you more cheap cards to defend your Show and Tell.

[jcsy]

http://www.mtgoacademy.com/forcing-the-will-reanimator-v2/

after watching the 4 Rounds this guy played, learnt quite alot

on the other hand, he didnt face any hate.. hence his games were rather easy

[Master Shake]

http://www.mtgoacademy.com/forcing-the-will-reanimator-v2/

after watching the 4 Rounds this guy played, learnt quite alot

on the other hand, he didnt face any hate.. hence his games were rather easy

I was listening to this guy


(On Fetchlands) We have a ton of fetchlands in this deck. Basically the reason is we want to thin the deck...

No, this is wrong, the reason we play these lands is so that there are appx. 1 million ways to get access to Underground Sea, or the correct basic.


Two Islands, One Swamp

The reason he says for this is that you'll never need to tap two black sources on your turn, which is totally untrue, there are times where you need to Thoughtseize and cast an animation spell or play a topdecked Entomb and an animate spell, or multiple animate spell. More realistically, you would play one Island, especially in this deck where you're less likely to Chain Brainstorms and Ponders.

Not going to watch all of these videos, but he does a pretty good introduction to the video. I don't agree with Blazing Archon in the main over Elesh Norn in the Main, or 4 Jins, but there are all sorts of different opinions on the matter.


he didn't face any hate..

A lot of times in a tournament I don't see any hate. It happens.

Edit - Holy crap, he spends so long talking about this deck. Jesus.

[KevinTrudeau]

The reason he says for this is that you'll never need to tap two black sources on your turn, which is totally untrue, there are times where you need to Thoughtseize and cast an animation spell or play a topdecked Entomb and an animate spell, or multiple animate spell. More realistically, you would play one Island, especially in this deck where you're less likely to Chain Brainstorms and Ponders.

This. I've sometimes needed access to three black mana in a single turn (certainly not a super common occurrence, but not a rare one either), so to say that needing two in one turn will never come up is pretty ridiculous. Also, running more than one Island opens you up a lot more to awkward one landers (where the one land is an Island) with Reanimate and Entomb, although I can't really speak for Ponder versions of the deck.

[Muppet86]

Hey Guy's,

im heading to the GP this weekend, and i'm still in doubt over the deck.

I';m currently running the following list:

2 jin
1 empyrial
1 iona'
1 sphinx
1 archon
1 inkwell

4 force
4 daze
4 careful study
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 exhume
2 animate dead
3 thoughtseize

4 sea
1 island
1 swamp
10 fetch

SB
Still not sure about this.
1 sphinx
1 iona
1 elesh norn
2 show and tell
1 null rod
3 needle
1 thoughseize
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 echoing truth
1 animate dead


What do you guy's recommend about the md list and what cards for the sb?

I;m expecting a lot of stoneblade, zoo, merfolk and combo in Amsterdam,

[Lemnear]

Switch inkwell and archon for elesh (kills triball,SFM, zoo, dredge) and one more gin.

I tried Snapcaster mages and Gin n#4 for the thoughtseize/animate dead slots in testing and they are very evil with reanimate/exhume/study/entomb. Reanimate SCM, flashback reanimate for archangel, be edict-proof. In the mid- to lategame SCM is always the card you need (reanimator/discard-outlet/etc.)

[bfeingersh]

I would play more basics, but I'm just a particularly basic-prone person.

[n0mad]

Hey guys! I am trying to get my Reanimator deck together for SCG Baltimore this coming weekend and I have been having some issues with my creature base and I was hoping someone wouldn't mind giving me some much needed advise! I am using Master Shake's deck list from SCG Indy and I have listed it below for reference.

The creature base is as follows:
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Angel of Despair

The Elesh Norn has been perfect against fish and against affinity. The Iona has been amazing vs High Tide and Burn. Jin-Gitasias is a boss vs. any blue/storm deck.

I have been having an issue vs Zoo which I feel should be a pretty easy match-up but I am probably making the wrong calls on mulligans vs it. I am unsure as to what creature to entomb for and if after sideboard do you take out some/all of the reanimates to keep you from getting burned out? I feel like I am supposed to get Empyrial Archangel vs them but they just steam roll her and then proceed to faceroll me in subsequent fashion. Do you just go for Sphinx of Steel Wind and in that case you just need to have force back-up or a lot of daze's?

i haven't been able to figure out how/when to properly use Empyrial Archangel.. so I guess that's where i would start? i appreciate anyone taking the time to read this! Thanks!


17 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

8 CREATURES
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Angel of Despair

32 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
4 Exhume
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

3 OTHER SPELLS
3 Animate Dead

SIDEBOARD
1 Thoughtseize
3 Show and Tell
1 Wipe Away
3 Spell Pierce
1 Echoing Truth
2 Dispel
1 Blazing Archon
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Pithing Needle

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2069&d=214483

[Lemnear]

Archangel is the better inkwell. She's the wrong target against zoo. The solution depends on how fast you are able to smash a creature in the table. Reanimate on Gin can be suicide against a deck with burn, while exhume is a solution to pair him with another creature to overwhelm Zoo's 1-3 creatures dropped. Sphinx will rock the house and Elesh is good too, especially if you pair her with any other creature. Sphinx has protection from Zoo so you have to guess if they run Path to exile in addition of burn (slightly unlikely).

[n0mad]

Archangel is the better inkwell. She's the wrong target against zoo. The solution depends on how fast you are able to smash a creature in the table. Reanimate on Gin can be suicide against a deck with burn, while exhume is a solution to pair him with another creature to overwhelm Zoo's 1-3 creatures dropped. Sphinx will rock the house and Elesh is good too, especially if you pair her with any other creature. Sphinx has protection from Zoo so you have to guess if they run Path to exile in addition of burn (slightly unlikely).

so.. perhaps it's just my local meta but every zoo deck i have ever played has path to exile main deck and swords sideboard.

Tournament:
i played last night in our local shops 4 round legacy wednesday tourney and i went 2-2. round 1 i played home brew thing and just turn 2 jin-gitaxias for 2 games and won. round 2 was BUG aggro with delver of secrets, goyf and counters/disruption (no wastelands or tombstalkers), i won game 1 and mulled to 5 game two and lost and pretty much beat myself game 3, i had a choice of discarding inkwell or jin and i went with the inkwell... that seems to be the wrong choice almost every time. round 3 i played UB CounterTop with a ton of removal and handily lost both those and round 4 i played against UW Moat.dec thing and turn 2 jin-gitax game 1 and turn 2 inkwell game 2 and just rode them to victory.

Impressions:
i was of course overall impressed with inkwell and jin vs blue decks. if they have no real creature pressure inkwell can race pretty well but seems like a poor target vs many UB based deck's as they tend to have a non-targeted sacrifice effect in their deck and you just get more value and resilience out of jin's card draw.

Changes:
i replaced the archangel with the blazing archon from my sideboard for the night and it was "ok" but never really swung the games either way. i would like to see about fitting 2 misdirections into the deck and will have to see what i can cut. maybe 1 exhume and 1 careful study and add 2 misdirections? o.O

[MirrorMask]

yeah well inkwell is only good vs blue or if they pack removal, otherwise it just sucks. You won't be able to attack with it fearing an even stronger counterattack at times(zoo) offering nothing ability wise as the rest of the fatties. I ve been thinking about misdirection as well and i have put just 1 MD and i like it. I would like to have more but thoughtseize is needed more i think. Also I would like you to tell me why some of you are using 4 brainstorms PLUS 4 ponders. In the pre misstep era we used just 4 brainstorms and we were ok, why 8 brainstorm like effects now?

[Einherjer]

Im very very new to this archetype, but could someone explain the Show and Tells in everyones sideboards? Why and when do you board them in?

[dahcmai]

I tend to board them in most of the time until I know what kind of sideboard grave hate they bring in. I take a guess on the board hate and it's nice to have an out if you're wrong. Really only if I know the opponent has something like Emrakul, Projo, or Hive Mind do I not bother. It's nice to bypass hate so easily.

I've had it happen where an Affinity deck dropped a Leyline of the Void on me. Wasn't expecting that. Show and Tell pulled me out of it.

Sometimes I will put them back in the board once I know what they have to conserve consistency. Though most of the time, it's usually worth being able to play around crypts and such with ease. It's much slower than just reanimating something, but it dodges a lot of stuff.

[zmattk]

Has anyone else been having a problem with the NO Bant matchup lately? I just feel like everything in their deck is made to beat us. I can fight through their counters and land a creature but then they just have stp to remove my threat. And if I don't correctly predict their deck before I entomb, I'm probably not trying to get archangel out. And even with her out, they can still kill her relatively easy. Because of this I'm testing out dispel in the main again. Dispel is allowing me to go for Jin more because I can protect him easier with dispel than thoughtseize.

[n0mad]

Im very very new to this archetype, but could someone explain the Show and Tells in everyones sideboards? Why and when do you board them in?

it is there to go around "Leyline of the Void" mostly, as that pretty much negates the deck otherwise. it goes around tormod's crypt and relic as well but we also have pithing needle, echoing truth and wipe away for that.


Has anyone else been having a problem with the NO Bant matchup lately? I just feel like everything in their deck is made to beat us. I can fight through their counters and land a creature but then they just have stp to remove my threat. And if I don't correctly predict their deck before I entomb, I'm probably not trying to get archangel out. And even with her out, they can still kill her relatively easy. Because of this I'm testing out dispel in the main again. Dispel is allowing me to go for Jin more because I can protect him easier with dispel than thoughtseize.

i think i would keep dispel in the sb for blue decks and decks with direct removal (black creature decks and white decks)

[zmattk]

i think i would keep dispel in the sb for blue decks and decks with direct removal (black creature decks and white decks)

That's what I was doing, but leyline of the void is such a pain in the ass go play around. And if I have no way to protect my guys game one, I'm finding myself losing those. And game two if I can't find show and tell or bounce with counter backup I end up losing those too.

Thoughtseize in the main is best against decks with no instant speed removal or counters, which are the decks we have the best matchup against. Dispel protects us against the decks that give us the most problems.

[nastirth]

Hi guys,

Bad news from Amsterdam. After my disatrous day1 performance, where i was 5-0 (3 byes, wins vs tendrils and affinity) and then lost 4 games in a row against two bug snapcaster, uw snapcaster and canadian threshold, I was curious if the other reanimators had the same problems (reanimator was the most played deck in day 1). In the second day reanimator was not the most played already, and not even one made top32. I found the snapcaster matchups hard and even worse after sideboarding. They arent unwinable but it always seemed that i was one step behind. The threshold matchup is also very tough, specially if they have the fow+daze+spierce+stifle package that my last opponent had.

[n0mad]

So I top 8ed the scg baltimore today with MasterShakes Reanimator list. Super fun! I lost to calosso playing RUG CounterTop in the Top8.

[zmattk]

I also had some unfotunate luck today at a SCG Invitational Qualifier with Reanimator. I ended up losing to UW Stoneblade with Snapcaster and Zoo. Both just had ridiculous amounts of gy hate that I couldn't do anything in games 2 or 3. I did play Dispel in the main and liked it a ton. It always got the job done whether I was protecting my creature from a swords or fighting through an extra counter. I just dont think my deck liked me today. I didn't draw what I needed to when I needed it.

Also congrats n0mad for your top 8 finish at Baltimore!

[bruizar]

reanimator is too much of an all-in deck. i board in coffin purge and memory's journey against reanimator and snapcaster mages. journey is also good against past in flames and dredge. also board in echoing truth and curfew as iona always names black against me, and curfew gets rid of shroud. (e.truth is also good against planeswalkers)

[caenel]

@nastirth: I've had the same problem in Amsterdam. I came in without any bye's and was out by round 6 after going down to UW snapcaster stoneblade, canadian thresh and bant snapcaster stoneblade. Those matchups seem horrible. I kept on playing though and ended up being paired against 1 more snapcaster and a junk matchup in the process, loosing those 2 as well, then loosing the last one to ANT (god-draw in 3th game, with a turn 1 Tendrils with me on the play and already Spell Piercing his first spell... what can you do...).

For me it felt like the field was way too well prepared for reanimator and the Snapcaster builds are just too good against us. In game 2 against junk I faced an almost unwinnable situation as well: Leyline of the Void on the field, I went for a T3 Show and Tell for Jin, he dropped Knight of the Reliquary on my SnT and went for the Karakas in his turn... damn.

Ah wel, at least it was fun :-)

[Anselm]

I went 10-5 in Amsteredam with 1 bye, dropping when picking up my fifth loss in the penultimate round. My losses were to two threshold decks, two band decks and one BUG. Had I been a little less stupid, I would have beaten BUG and started 6-0 instead of 5-1, but oh well. Both threshold and bant seems really hard matchups, and I hadn't tested against them enough, I didn't have a very strong sideboarding plan. Running 4 md thoughtseize and 1 sb duress helped a lot, though. The decks is really powerful and can fight through a lot of hate, but it's not always easy.

[n0mad]

I also had some unfotunate luck today at a SCG Invitational Qualifier with Reanimator. I ended up losing to UW Stoneblade with Snapcaster and Zoo. Both just had ridiculous amounts of gy hate that I couldn't do anything in games 2 or 3. I did play Dispel in the main and liked it a ton. It always got the job done whether I was protecting my creature from a swords or fighting through an extra counter. I just dont think my deck liked me today. I didn't draw what I needed to when I needed it.

Also congrats n0mad for your top 8 finish at Baltimore!

thanks! :D

[moseby]

Saturday I top 4'd a 25 man tourney for an ancestral. My only round losses were to almost mirror builds, with the exception of their boards, They were both U/B team america decks running snapcaster,delver, and, riptide labs, and I believe the only other game I lost to was a U/W stoneforge, w/ snapcaster.

Basically every time they ran out snap caster I lost, badly.

[justindz]

Blog report for SCG Baltimore. I started out 4-1 with Reanimator, including a 2-0 win on camera in round 4. Then I lost two in a row and dropped to bird my friend who got 4th place (and had to return my cards at the end of the night).

tl;dr summary:
- Reanimator is still very good and several matches are just byes (Burn, High Tide, anything tribal, I'm looking at you)
- GW Maverick is a rough match
- playing 17 land decks is risky and high variance

Thought at least the notes about creature choices, changes, sideboard etc. would be useful.

http://justindz.tumblr.com/post/11864326914/a-pretty-big-day-at-scg-baltimore

[Master Shake]

So I top 8ed the scg baltimore today with MasterShakes Reanimator list. Super fun! I lost to calosso playing RUG CounterTop in the Top8.

I wanted to congratulation everyone for doing so well, and especially n0mad for playing nearly my 75. It looks like you couldn't get all the Deltas together, but excellent job regardless.

It makes me chuckle a bit, because after the last SCG Open everyone said Legacy is dead. People are far too apt to jump on any given bandwagon, it seems. One event seldom shapes or is indicative of a metagame.

Addressing a few concerns that were brought up

1. GW is a hard match, Zoo isn't a slam dunk either. Why Reanimator is a very powerful deck, you're still playing Magic with most matches, you're favored but you can't do the knee-jerk reactions. If you live in Europe where GW is big, you certain;y want to test that match and will want access to Pithing Needle from the board, you'll also often need to just hope that Sphinx or Empyrial Archangel is enough to get there, because depending on Jin in that match is really risky unless you can get him on turn 2.

2. The other matches still, you need to play Magic, you can't expect to slam down your busted cards every round and have the opponent just scoop up their cards. You have two do the testing against U/W Stoneforge and U/B Snapcaster decks if you want to figure out how to beat them. And even then, you'll still run into hands where you're going to lose. It's not like you're playing 95%-5% matches, even when you're favored in a match, you can still lose it.

Keep your play tight, tune the maindeck and sideboard for the matches you're not comfortable with and practice. This is how you reach success with any deck, including Reanimator. Don't expect to pick the deck up and have the instant-wins flow forever.

[n0mad]

I wanted to congratulation everyone for doing so well, and especially n0mad for playing nearly my 75. It looks like you couldn't get all the Deltas together, but excellent job regardless.

It makes me chuckle a bit, because after the last SCG Open everyone said Legacy is dead. People are far too apt to jump on any given bandwagon, it seems. One event seldom shapes or is indicative of a metagame.

Addressing a few concerns that were brought up

1. GW is a hard match, Zoo isn't a slam dunk either. Why Reanimator is a very powerful deck, you're still playing Magic with most matches, you're favored but you can't do the knee-jerk reactions. If you live in Europe where GW is big, you certain;y want to test that match and will want access to Pithing Needle from the board, you'll also often need to just hope that Sphinx or Empyrial Archangel is enough to get there, because depending on Jin in that match is really risky unless you can get him on turn 2.

2. The other matches still, you need to play Magic, you can't expect to slam down your busted cards every round and have the opponent just scoop up their cards. You have two do the testing against U/W Stoneforge and U/B Snapcaster decks if you want to figure out how to beat them. And even then, you'll still run into hands where you're going to lose. It's not like you're playing 95%-5% matches, even when you're favored in a match, you can still lose it.

Keep your play tight, tune the maindeck and sideboard for the matches you're not comfortable with and practice. This is how you reach success with any deck, including Reanimator. Don't expect to pick the deck up and have the instant-wins flow forever.

Thanks bro! The list was really strong and I had been testing it locally (we have a pretty competent legacy meta here in northern virginia) so the testing was good but just limited.

So sick bragg side story of the weekend lol, I ended up playing a Reanimator mirror match round 3, he won the die roll and stated that he wished to play first. I kept a Hand of Underground sea, Reanimate, Fetch, Daze and some other cards. He goes Fetch, Underground Sea, Careful Study, Pitching Island and Jin-Gitaxias. He passes and I draw a fetch, play underground sea, cast reanimate taking his jin. He forces and I daze and draw 7. ^_^ I was in mythical magic land sliding on rainbows and shit lol~

[Master Shake]

Thanks bro! The list was really strong and I had been testing it locally (we have a pretty competent legacy meta here in northern virginia) so the testing was good but just limited.

So sick bragg side story of the weekend lol, I ended up playing a Reanimator mirror match round 3, he won the die roll and stated that he wished to play first. I kept a Hand of Underground sea, Reanimate, Fetch, Daze and some other cards. He goes Fetch, Underground Sea, Careful Study, Pitching Island and Jin-Gitaxias. He passes and I draw a fetch, play underground sea, cast reanimate taking his jin. He forces and I daze and draw 7. ^_^ I was in mythical magic land sliding on rainbows and shit lol~

Yeah, I've been in the oppisite side of that, except I was playing against a Pox player. One of the worst Magic experiences of my life was when my opponent had my Jin-Gitaxias and decided to cast a Smallpox, yet still won.

The testing statements weren't so much directed at you, but other people had been asking questions or making statements.

[Harduvel]

So sick bragg side story of the weekend lol, I ended up playing a Reanimator mirror match round 3, he won the die roll and stated that he wished to play first. I kept a Hand of Underground sea, Reanimate, Fetch, Daze and some other cards. He goes Fetch, Underground Sea, Careful Study, Pitching Island and Jin-Gitaxias. He passes and I draw a fetch, play underground sea, cast reanimate taking his jin. He forces and I daze and draw 7. ^_^ I was in mythical magic land sliding on rainbows and shit lol~

He didn't know what you were playing, did he?

[allek]

I was in Amsterdam playing Maverick, and both faced and watched some Reanimator games. I played Reanimator in Madrid last year and will be picking up the deck again since I'm tired of attacking with small green/white men. However, Snapcaster Mage + counters / surgical extraction is a beating and this problem must be adressed. Almost all Reanimators that make it to T8 are 99% identical, is there really no room for development?

Ideas worth trying, saw some of them at the GP, some are just things I'm brainstorming:

Noxious Revival: is free, saves guys from extirpate effects and can regrow used/countered spells (at the cost of the draw step)
Snapcaster Mage: Allows us to run less of each spell, can be Entomb 5-8 and buyback Brainstorms. Also, a blocker is sometimes a good thing to have.
Cabal Therapy: Good synergies if you play Snapcaster, can be entombed.
Gitaxian Probe: Awesome with cabal therapy and the information provided will let you now if you can go for it or not without protection or need a certain Entomb target.
Lilliana: Creature kill, discard outlet, can grind down opponents hand size.

[theBloody]

I'm also thinking about Noxious Revival. At least as sb card. Note that Entomb + Noxious Revival == Vampiric Tutor 2.0 with card disadvantage. But it will need a lot of build around.

[Crust]

Hi,
I've been playing Reanimator for a while now and I do like it a lot. The deck is very fast and consistent.
@Allek
I like your ideas but almost all of them are at the cost of speed and I think that is one of the deck's biggest strengths. And the question then is, can Reanimator make it, if you reanimate turn 3-5 instead of 2-3?

Noxious Revival is intresting because it's "free". We lost MM and that IS a loss. What to replace it with? In my opinion it is a good idea to replace it with another "free" spell. Misdirection is among the best aternatives, in theory anyway. I've only been testing it a few games. Anyone who have som experience and analysis?

[n0mad]

I was in Amsterdam playing Maverick, and both faced and watched some Reanimator games. I played Reanimator in Madrid last year and will be picking up the deck again since I'm tired of attacking with small green/white men. However, Snapcaster Mage + counters / surgical extraction is a beating and this problem must be adressed. Almost all Reanimators that make it to T8 are 99% identical, is there really no room for development?

Ideas worth trying, saw some of them at the GP, some are just things I'm brainstorming:

Noxious Revival: is free, saves guys from extirpate effects and can regrow used/countered spells (at the cost of the draw step)
Snapcaster Mage: Allows us to run less of each spell, can be Entomb 5-8 and buyback Brainstorms. Also, a blocker is sometimes a good thing to have.
Cabal Therapy: Good synergies if you play Snapcaster, can be entombed.
Gitaxian Probe: Awesome with cabal therapy and the information provided will let you now if you can go for it or not without protection or need a certain Entomb target.
Lilliana: Creature kill, discard outlet, can grind down opponents hand size.

I have to say, I REALLY, REALLY like the idea of Noxious Revival in the sideboard. My biggest issue was instant speed graveyard hate so that card seems like what I have been looking for! Thanks! :)

[zmattk]

Well my thoughts on noxious revival are that first off it does nothing against extirpate since it has split second. Other than that it isn't too bad. I feel like misdirection might do the job better though. You can make their surgical extraction hit themselves. Another thing I don't like about noxious revival is that it puts your creature back on top of your deck which means without a fetch or brainstorm, you draw that card next turn. With limited ways to get our creatures to the gy, noxious might end up setting us back a few turns. I don't think it's a terrible idea, I'll probably end up testing it out a bit, but I'm just not sure it's the best card for our deck.

[n0mad]

Well my thoughts on noxious revival are that first off it does nothing against extirpate since it has split second. Other than that it isn't too bad. I feel like misdirection might do the job better though. You can make their surgical extraction hit themselves. Another thing I don't like about noxious revival is that it puts your creature back on top of your deck which means without a fetch or brainstorm, you draw that card next turn. With limited ways to get our creatures to the gy, noxious might end up setting us back a few turns. I don't think it's a terrible idea, I'll probably end up testing it out a bit, but I'm just not sure it's the best card for our deck.

misdirection seemed really cool too but i didn't feel like paying the $15 for them lol

so, side note... has anyone seen the new Graveborn premium foil set with Entomb/Animate Dead in it? :O
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=300501

[lyracian]

so, side note... has anyone seen the new Graveborn premium foil set with Entomb/Animate Dead in it? :O
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=300501
I think a lot of people have seen it; just waiting to see the full deck list. I shall be getting two.


Well my thoughts on noxious revival are that first off it does nothing against
...
I don't think it's a terrible idea, I'll probably end up testing it out a bit, but I'm just not sure it's the best card for our deck.
You do not have to put a creature on top. You can grab any reanimate spell, Entomb or even a counterspell. That is where I think it will shine.

[lyracian]

.............

[n0mad]

i wonder what the new entomb and animate dead artwork look like.... /dreams
(i still need my entomb's lol)

[zmattk]

I know noxious can get any card back but I think of we are going to use it, it's main purpose would be to save our creatures from removal. I do like that it can get any card back such as counterspells or any of our spells that were countered, but I'm unsure of how we would fit it into the deck. It most likely won't be going into the main board and if it's put in the sb we probably can only fit 2-3 max. Also, being in the sb pretty much guarantees that it's going to be used as gy protection because there's no real logic to bring it in unless you need a way to protect your creatures. I know that by having it in the deck gives you both ways to play it, but you're gonna get into situations where you have it in hand but it's game 2 and you're worried about surgical extraction so you just keep it until they try to extract you, which kind of takes away from the point of using it to grab counters, reanimate spells, ect.

Also about Graveborn, the entomb is the same art. I am excited to get black bordered animate deads with new wording though.

[bfeingersh]

i wonder what the new entomb and animate dead artwork look like.... /dreams
(i still need my entomb's lol)

I think Entomb is the same art, judging by the 5% of the art you can make out on the box

[K1w1]

Btw, Noxious Revival can be also played to the opponent.
It's especially nice against SnapcasterMage.dec
And there are some other nice decks like Dregde or Mirror.
Opponent plays Exhume with 1 Creature in his graveyard and you play nocious revival.
:)

K1w1

[Anselm]

I got an idea: for beating RUG thresh, Xantid Swarm would be nice. It ignores spell snare, spell pierce, pyroblast, surgical extraction and other graveyard hate, and to a large extent daze. It's a bit weak to stifle, though, as you have to resolve a fetch to get green, but I think it would be worth trying out. Not the worst against bant, UW etc either (which are the other really hard matchups).

Of course, the last game they might bring back lightning bolts, but that might be okay.

[alderon666]

The green splash also gives you Nature's Claim which is a pretty good overall answer to artifact hate and Leyline of the Void.

But it just fu*ks up your manabase.

[Dark Ritual]

The green splash doesn't mess up the manabase too badly. But on xantid. That card is awful in reanimator where the opponent wants their creature removal in so they could just bolt/dismember/fire/whatever your swarm and you're empty handed against their slew of countermagic.

You don't need to splash for noxious though. You can just pay 2 life every time and maybe cut one sea for a tropical island in those instances where you don't want to pay 2 life for noxious.

On good artifact/enchantment removal. Blue has plenty of that in the form of bounce spells via wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapor and has a straight answer to GY hate via show and tell. I don't really see the need for nature's claim or k. grip unless you really need to answer CB.dec with k grip but even then we can just wipe away their CB EoT and likely have it resolve.

[Lemnear]

Sorry but with that problem should Revival help you? If you want to replay countered cards snapcaster might be as good unless the extra mana is an issue. Isn't revival a horrible topdeck by costing 2 life and skip a turn?

[Anselm]

The green splash doesn't mess up the manabase too badly. But on xantid. That card is awful in reanimator where the opponent wants their creature removal in so they could just bolt/dismember/fire/whatever your swarm and you're empty handed against their slew of countermagic.

You don't need to splash for noxious though. You can just pay 2 life every time and maybe cut one sea for a tropical island in those instances where you don't want to pay 2 life for noxious.

On good artifact/enchantment removal. Blue has plenty of that in the form of bounce spells via wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapor and has a straight answer to GY hate via show and tell. I don't really see the need for nature's claim or k. grip unless you really need to answer CB.dec with k grip but even then we can just wipe away their CB EoT and likely have it resolve.

RUG won't keep bolts in vs reanimator, because, well, they don't kill anything. And that's the matchup where I'd want swarms. I was just looking at spell pierce and thinking about anything that would get around it.

Agree that you don't need any other enchantment removal than bounce, though.

[aljiichiban]

Btw, Noxious Revival can be also played to the opponent.
It's especially nice against SnapcasterMage.dec
And there are some other nice decks like Dregde or Mirror.
Opponent plays Exhume with 1 Creature in his graveyard and you play nocious revival.
:)

K1w1

Isn't Faerie Macabre better than this in terms of playing against SnapcasterMage.dec or the like? We wouldn't want them to return an stp, brainstorm or snare on top of their library...

[K1w1]

Isn't Faerie Macabre better than this in terms of playing against SnapcasterMage.dec or the like? We wouldn't want them to return an stp, brainstorm or snare on top of their library...

Oh, totally forgot it. You're right.
But on the other hand, you can just put a card on top of the library they rly dont need.
It's a free turn for you!

[Master Shake]

So, I've kept quiet in the thread hoping that someone would actually test Noxious Revival or Snapcaster Mage in the deck. They are terrible. Not just terrible but damn close to unplayable.

Snapcaster needs at least 1UB and for you to have already have fired off a Reanimation spell to be any good, and none of them are Instants so you are obligated to do it at sorcery speed, which means this trick is totally telegraphed after the first time and always prone to Daze effects. Furthermore, Snapcaster wants to use a resource that the opponent is already trying to deny you.

Lastly, and most importantly, where do you fir Snapcaster in? You actually need to take cards out of the deck to put it in. Do you Cut reanimation spells? Ponders to help you find Entomb/Careful Study? Do you want to cut down on actual creatures to reanimate?

As far as Revival is concerned, I'm surprised anyone brought it up to begin with. The card creates card disadvantage, so there is one strike against it, doesn't actually do anything in the main deck that you want and is so narrow against what it is even somewhat effective against that you'll probably never notice when it's useful. Any time you open up with it in your starting 7, it will almost always be worse than another reanimation spell, just like Snapcaster, only this one costs you life.

However, Xantid Swam is a great idea that has been explored in the past. The metagame may be shifting to a point where things like Swarm, Dryad Arbor (out of the board to dodge Edict effects) and Krosan Grip or any of the other Green Disenchants are a great choice for Reanimator, epsecially if we see Tempo decks really make a comeback.

[alphastryk]

@Master Shake I was really starting to wonder if everyone had gone insane. Noxious Revival does absolutely nothing in this deck, and Tiago seems too expensive, and, as you said, uses the same resource they are already trying to deny you.

I've been testing different protection spells, and so far a combination of Misdirection and Thoughtseize seems to be working the best. Misdirection is a fully free counterspell for any counterspell, and spell-based graveyard hate, and most removal.

So far I haven't felt a need to go back to a green sideboard, unless people start playing a lot more edicts and the dryad arbor is worth it again.

I've had decent success against the tempo deck with the Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and have been very happily boarding in a second against them. I feel that the Canadian Thresh-style tempo decks at least are a very good matchup.

[Darklingske]

I've tested Snapcaster for a while, but he is not very useful in reanimator. The biggest problem with SCM is that, for it to be effective, you need at least 4 lands in play. I don't know about you guys, but I rarely have 4 lands in play. If you really want SCM in the deck, then I suggest to up the landcount to at least 19. And then comes the second big problem. What cards do we cut in order to fit the mage in our MD? Cutting reanimationspells doesn't sound like a good plan (and in reality it still is a bad plan!). Trimming on the protectionpackage? Well, I guess that that means less resolved reanimationspells and thus negates our main goal. Maybe cutting some fatties? But this means that we relie harder on Entomb. If we really want Tiago in the deck, we need to change the whole 60 cards. At least, that's what I think...

[Hopo]

However, Xantid Swam is a great idea that has been explored in the past. The metagame may be shifting to a point where things like Swarm, Dryad Arbor (out of the board to dodge Edict effects) and Krosan Grip or any of the other Green Disenchants are a great choice for Reanimator, epsecially if we see Tempo decks really make a comeback.

If tempo decks, especially Tempo Thresh are prevailing, how can you consider Xantid Swarm any good? UR-decks use Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice to speed up their clock and those seem like really good spells to deal with Swarm. Because Jin-Gitaxias dies to almost every removal spell available, Team America -like decks won't side out all their removal against Reanimator.

Swarm could be really good against other counterspell decks, but I see it really lacking against various flavors fo tempo. Not to mention that tempo decks tend to fuck your manabase so going to three colors just doesn't feel too smart.

[Anselm]

If tempo decks, especially Tempo Thresh are prevailing, how can you consider Xantid Swarm any good? UR-decks use Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice to speed up their clock and those seem like really good spells to deal with Swarm. Because Jin-Gitaxias dies to almost every removal spell available, Team America -like decks won't side out all their removal against Reanimator.

Swarm could be really good against other counterspell decks, but I see it really lacking against various flavors fo tempo. Not to mention that tempo decks tend to fuck your manabase so going to three colors just doesn't feel too smart.

I seriously doubt they'd keep in bolts. Relying on double bolt or bolt+fire/ice to kill Jin is far too inconsistent.

[alphastryk]

They will keep in dismember which kills Jin, but will likely rely on REB to replace bolt and fire//ice in that role, so swarms would live, although I'm not sure that they are useful. I would rather board in more counterspells / discard and keep my manabase more stable against stifle+wasteland decks.

[ivanpei]

I think messing up the manabase is not worth it. It's not like you have lotus petals ala Ad Nauseum storm to help cast xantid. I like the dryad arbor in the board against edict effects though. You can md 4 misty and 2 verdant catacomb which makes fetching the arbor easy enough. Having a ninja blocker can also mean life or death against some decks. Ninja arbor vs dark confidant is tech.

[Anusien]

With people realizing Liliana of the Veil is totally playable, aren't you already running mostly green fetchlands for Dryad Arbor? Makes Xantid Swarm pretty easy.

[zmattk]

I'm personally not a fan of splashing green. I like the idea of Xantid Swarm but it does mess up the mana base to some extent. With RUG and tempo decks making a comeback, I'm a little uncomfortable relying on fetch lands to get a green source to play Xantid. Xantid also is easily bolted by RUG. I'm happy with the standard UB lists as of right now. I don't see too much for us to worry about except for the standard gy hate.

That being said, I will do some testing with a BUG list just to have a more solid opinion on the matter.

[into_play]

Hi everybody, I was the player who got 3rd at SSG: Las Vegas running Reanimator. I got nearly the best possible Swiss match-ups Reanimator could ask for, going 5-0 against Zoo, BW Pox, Tezzeret Affinity, GW Maverick, and Dredge. I then lost round 6 to Bertoncini's Bant Blade and won round 7 against RUG Delver. Round 8 I was able to I.D. into top 8, where I beat Bertoncini in top 8 and then lost to the eventual winner's RUG deck in the top 4. I will be sure to post a report within the next couple of days.

[alphastryk]

Hi everybody, I was the player who got 3rd at SSG: Las Vegas running Reanimator. I got nearly the best possible Swiss match-ups Reanimator could ask for, going 5-0 against Zoo, BW Pox, Tezzeret Affinity, GW Maverick, and Dredge. I then lost round 6 to Bertoncini's Bant Blade and won round 7 against RUG Delver. Round 8 I was able to I.D. into top 8, where I beat Bertoncini in top 8 and then lost to the eventual winner's RUG deck in the top 4. I will be sure to post a report within the next couple of days.

Grats, looking forward to hearing more, there are a few choices in your list that I had questions about.

[jcsy]

great, a report to base on

i remember back in the older reanimator days, there was splashes of GREEN to actually reach for cards like
it can be achieved though, with about 2 verdant catacombs and 2 misty rainforest

Bayou
Tropical island
Xantid Swarm
Nature's Claim
Krosan Grip
Dryad Arbor

[TheMinel]

hi guys

newbie here... also building a reanimator deck, although today i came across this rather nice version of a "reanimator" but with no black :D

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/22236

I quite like this one! :D what do you think? Obviously it's a different way or making use of those huge beasts which cannot be literally used in our decks, but I think it sounds cool!

EDIT: just noticed they classify these as "sneak attack" decks on the site above... hadn't seen a deck discussion on here about them :)

[Norm]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18871-Deck-Sneak-Attack-with-Show-and-Tell


hi guys

newbie here... also building a reanimator deck, although today i came across this rather nice version of a "reanimator" but with no black :D

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/22236

I quite like this one! :D what do you think? Obviously it's a different way or making use of those huge beasts which cannot be literally used in our decks, but I think it sounds cool!

EDIT: just noticed they classify these as "sneak attack" decks on the site above... hadn't seen a deck discussion on here about them :)

[TheMinel]

thanks!! :D

[Jules]

Hi,
i'm really interested in playing this Deck, but I have some questions reffering to right sideboarding.

My problem mostly is that I know what to board in, but not what to put out.

What are the common boarding strategies against the momentarily most played decks like maverick, dredge, ********, stoneblade or Merfolk?

In which situations do i board the show and tells?

Are there any "auto includes" G2 you board every time when you know against what deck you are playing?

I hope my questions are clear and i apologize for my bad english :rolleyes:

The List im reffering to


Targets
3 Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Angel of Despair

Enablers
4 Entomb
3 Careful Study

Reanimation
3 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead

Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Blue Fetch
2 Black Fetch
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth




3 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Show and Tell
3 Echoing Truth
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blazing Archon

[GexxX]

Hey. I am rather new to this Deck, too. I've been trying it out once a while pre MM ban.
I think this Deck has to be well prepared to do well in big tournaments. There are two simple reasons for this belive:

a.) Your MD Creature selection has to be suited for the most common archetypes in YOUR metagame. It doesn't make sense to play Blazing Archon against a field of Storm, nor is Sphinx good enough against lots of control-style Decks. That's why the lists differ quite a lot. A good knowledge of the field seems relevant to me.
b.) Reanimator beats most Decks game1. Without the inhumanely good draws it's incredibly hard to beat. The raw power of it's reanimation targets is so brutal. Just insane. I've been playtesting wth some friends. I've lost like ~3 games out of 30 preboard. Postboard it gets extremely difficult to calculate the options your opponent has to play hatecards as tormod's crypt style effects or Surgical Extraction. I still win more than 50% of my postboard games due to the fact that I do know what to board and what hands to keep. In general: Information is key for sideboarding. Unless your opponents choises are obvious.

Back to your question. I just bought the whole deck just to play and get experience with and I had to look twice to actually believe what show and tell goes for these days. That's propably why you ask about their use. If not - just ignore it and forgive me, please.
Show and Tell does multiple things. It's a card with the option to do tricks your opponent can not respond to properly. It sneaks Fatties into play. And therefor it's perfect to dodge graveyard hate. At the moment you'll face a lot I think. The key is to go through Decklists and spy for show and tell targets which can be problematic to you. Example: Maverick has Knight of the Relinquary and Karakas. S&T allows them to sneak either into play and on top. boath lead to Karakas which lead to a fattie in your hand unless it's not a legend. Just look out for those slots and you'll be left with... Merfolk, SneakShow, Hivemind, etc. (I'm to lazy to think about all of them right now and the list is by far to long to remember after a couple of beers ;) )

cheers

[damionblackgear]

Nice sig ;)

Just a thought for everyone else. I don't play this deck but I try to be helpful wherever I can so I hope this gets some though.

What about going back to the 3 Iona lists? Seems like she'd be effective since everyone's gone back to not worrying about her hitting play (meaning that most Reanimator players are grabbing Jinn) so they've gone back to their typical removal packages, usually sharing a color.

Just a thought.

[oRen]

I guess I am fine with playing 2 Ionas. The card still got no shroud and does not instantly win.

I am unsure about splashing colors. The discussions on the last pages were not quite satisfying.
When MT was still playable in Legacy a lot of the players tended to run 1 green dual + 1 or 2 grips. In addition to this you could also run Dryad Arbor now as something to make your creatures Edict proof or some kind of ninja blocker. Also Swarm might be decent.
I also thought of splashing red for the new spoiled Flashback Careful Study which also seems more than decent for the deck. You could also run Blasts in the Board which deal nicely with Snapcasters and Countermagic - blasts are at least a small upgrade to the Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/Dispel. What sucks a bit is that I guess you would have to run like 3 Red Duals to be able to constantly cast or flashback the red study while the color is incredibly limited in suiting MD or SB cards.
Those splashes require a straight fetchlandsplit + 2 or 3 duals/arbor which is kind of bearable imo.

I would love to get some input on this. Even with the ideas of splashing being around like forever none seems to have success with a splashed list. Especially the possible red splash in the future is very appealing.

[aljiichiban]

HI All:

Just want to share that I was able make top 8 with this deck. Here's the link

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22684-Top-8-Finish-with-Reanimator-at-Dark-Confidant-tourney&p=604225#post604225

[TheMinel]

has anyone tried to integrate Intuition to this deck, as an addition to Entomb? obviously it costs much more but picking up 3 fatties and dropping 2 in the cemetery at instant speed doesn't seem such a bad idea!

[aljiichiban]

has anyone tried to integrate Intuition to this deck, as an addition to Entomb? obviously it costs much more but picking up 3 fatties and dropping 2 in the cemetery at instant speed doesn't seem such a bad idea!

I think it has been tried or discussed a few pages back(pre MM ban). It was too slow to warrant a maindeck slot.

[Clark Kant]

So...

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126059&d=1321954388

they're printing a superior version of Careful Study in red.

Considering that Careful Study is one of the strongest cards in the deck, it's a card that might actually be worth splashing for.

[Dreg]

Hmm, in my opinion, splashing for red is not a wise idea. Just because it's similar to CS, that doesn't mean that the card is worth including. First of all: Faithless Looting is not blue. Reanimator, as most of U-Based decks, plays Force of Will in order to protect its fatties. Careful is a strong card because it can be used as a FoW pitch. Faithless will just make the U count in the deck drop dramatically.

You say that it is superior due to flashback. Reanimator does not have the greatest manabase worldwide. It plays usually 17 to 19 lands, just the minimum needed to go off quickly without flooding, maximizing then the utility density of the deck. Another point is that, in addition to this thin manabase, you will usually be held back by your own dazes, so reaching 3 manas would take probably some time.

Third, a 3 colored manabase, in a metagame rich of stiflewaste and such, is not the greatest idea ever, especially for such a not-fundamental card.

[oRen]

Finally some real input.

>Faithless will just make the U count in the deck drop dramatically.
>dramatically

While testing I ran 3 Lootings for which I cutted 1 Entomb and 2 Hapless Researchers (you need to run this card even if it sucks pretty hard). This results in -2 U cards which means I still got 1/3 U (21) cards which still seems at least decent when I think of decks running 16 U cards including Force and still being OK.

Sure you need some time to reach 3 mana but this seems like no problem at all. I would even consider this card if it would not have flashback because Careful Study was always the MVP for me. Looting seems decent in games which get kind of "grindy" because you do not have the completely bonkers opener and play against someone who is able to defend against the reanimation strategy.
The point for is - the card seems really good in situations where you are in kind of a bad spot and were you are therefore forced to dig for solutions for the particular problems.

Considering Tempodecks is a fair point regarding the current metagame but I was still fine while testing with 2 Basics instead of 3 or 4 against Canadian. Also Stifle and Wasteland are not that bad against the UB versions either because you also fetch a lot and got nearly the same amount of duals (-1).
Relying on only non basic land based red Mana sucks though and might the only argument for me not switching to UBr.

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Red would also provide blasts which are SO MUCH (!!) better than Dispel/Pierce because they also deal with CB, Snapcaster and other random U stuff.

[aljiichiban]

Another top 8 finish for this deck. Made it all the way to the finals. Way to go!!

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_milton_figueroa_vs_andr.html

[rnightingale]

While testing I ran 3 Lootings for which I cutted 1 Entomb and 2 Hapless Researchers (you need to run this card even if it sucks pretty hard). This results in -2 U cards which means I still got 1/3 U (21) cards which still seems at least decent when I think of decks running 16 U cards including Force and still being OK.


Why would you remove 1 Entomb in maindeck? this card is one of the core pieces of reanimator.. lol.
Take note that CS-effect cards can be a major card disadvantage.. especially when you dont have creatures to bin.

[oRen]

Why would you remove 1 Entomb in maindeck? this card is one of the core pieces of reanimator.. lol.
Take note that CS-effect cards can be a major card disadvantage.. especially when you dont have creatures to bin.
Take note that instead of encouraging your argument you ridicule it and yourself with that "lol".

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Anyway I ran 9 creatures while testing and never had issues to discard a creature. One of my friends who is more experienced with this deck in practice also said that you might want to not cut an Entomb but that the intention is understandable. Obviously the exact numbers got to be figured out in about 2 month and nitpicking on single points while not even delivaring better ideas sucks.

Sure the card itself is pure carddisadvantage but it does it exactly want you want it to do. Trippling your "Getting creatures into your grave while digging for cards you want"-card is just too good to be completely ignored.

[jcsy]

with it being blue for force of will
1 mana cost
gets creature into bin
digs

only disadvantage, would be card disadvantage..

i would consider hapless before anything else, :D

[ThomasDowd]

Finally some real input.

>Faithless will just make the U count in the deck drop dramatically.
>dramatically

While testing I ran 3 Lootings for which I cutted 1 Entomb and 2 Hapless Researchers (you need to run this card even if it sucks pretty hard). This results in -2 U cards which means I still got 1/3 U (21) cards which still seems at least decent when I think of decks running 16 U cards including Force and still being OK.

Sure you need some time to reach 3 mana but this seems like no problem at all. I would even consider this card if it would not have flashback because Careful Study was always the MVP for me. Looting seems decent in games which get kind of "grindy" because you do not have the completely bonkers opener and play against someone who is able to defend against the reanimation strategy.
The point for is - the card seems really good in situations where you are in kind of a bad spot and were you are therefore forced to dig for solutions for the particular problems.

Considering Tempodecks is a fair point regarding the current metagame but I was still fine while testing with 2 Basics instead of 3 or 4 against Canadian. Also Stifle and Wasteland are not that bad against the UB versions either because you also fetch a lot and got nearly the same amount of duals (-1).
Relying on only non basic land based red Mana sucks though and might the only argument for me not switching to UBr.

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Red would also provide blasts which are SO MUCH (!!) better than Dispel/Pierce because they also deal with CB, Snapcaster and other random U stuff.

red blasts do not counter swords to plowshares. the ability to fight through countermagic isn't that big of a deal most of the time and is pretty easily done with force/ daze/ thoughtseize/ pierce out of the board. the blasts are not upgrades just narrower cards that don;t do as much in my opinion.

i also do not think that looting is where you want to be as i continually find myself boarding out 1-2 copies in games two and three if im on the show and tell plan since i will need all of my countermagic and my fatties in hand. also diluting to a third color seems sketchy if you are only gaining more copies of careful study.

[oRen]

red blasts do not counter swords to plowshares. the ability to fight through countermagic isn't that big of a deal most of the time and is pretty easily done with force/ daze/ thoughtseize/ pierce out of the board. the blasts are not upgrades just narrower cards that don;t do as much in my opinion.

i also do not think that looting is where you want to be as i continually find myself boarding out 1-2 copies in games two and three if im on the show and tell plan since i will need all of my countermagic and my fatties in hand. also diluting to a third color seems sketchy if you are only gaining more copies of careful study.

Fair points.

I got to admit that I am not a particularly big fan of SnT in this Deck. I had a lot of situations were this card just did not win. With that much other Reanimator and Maverik (+ a lot of random junk like CB Thopter; Hive Mind, ?) in the metagame I am pretty sure that it is not the right call.

[ThomasDowd]

Fair points.

I got to admit that I am not a particularly big fan of SnT in this Deck. I had a lot of situations were this card just did not win. With that much other Reanimator and Maverik (+ a lot of random junk like CB Thopter; Hive Mind, ?) in the metagame I am pretty sure that it is not the right call.


boarding in SnT in the mirror is miserable, and i have no idea why that would even be an option? there are ways to beat the mirror. mainly it comes down to alot of draw go and whoever blinks first and can stick their threat and protect from the ensuing bounce.

i really do not know how you are beating a scavenging ooze though, or an active knight, or a a creature which can blow up 2-3 of your reanimation spells and they still have other removal + karakas. maverick is really rough.

if your metagame is maverick and reanimator i wouldn't even play reanimator personally. the mirror is one of the most disgusting things ever and i haven;t figured out how to beat maverick yet, other than god draws. which this deck does have alot of.