[Deck] Reanimator

[oRen]

I did not say that I want to board in SnT against decks where it sucks. Obviously not. I am not a big fan of it and it would be terrible in my metagame.

Pithing Needle was nice for me in the sb.

[chags]

boarding in SnT in the mirror is miserable, and i have no idea why that would even be an option? there are ways to beat the mirror. mainly it comes down to alot of draw go and whoever blinks first and can stick their threat and protect from the ensuing bounce.

i really do not know how you are beating a scavenging ooze though, or an active knight, or a a creature which can blow up 2-3 of your reanimation spells and they still have other removal + karakas. maverick is really rough.

if your metagame is maverick and reanimator i wouldn't even play reanimator personally. the mirror is one of the most disgusting things ever and i haven;t figured out how to beat maverick yet, other than god draws. which this deck does have alot of.


Would sideboarding perish be a plausible option? It isn't ideal but it doesn't seem terrible, you just have to not run empyrial archangel.

[Mystical_Jackass]

In my Reanimator deck that I've had for... oh, a good 3 years now, I've been running
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Buried Alive
2 Intuition

I've played it at our local store (about 20-30 ppl usually) and I've gone 3-1 every single time. (for better or for worse -.-)

I'm not gonna go into it, but basically it plays out a lil' more comboey, and I go for an instant kill. I do run Duress & FoW as my only control. What do you guys think about putting more CA into a "known kill" vs going for the more consistent "constant reliable", one creature approach?


Would sideboarding perish be a plausible option? It isn't ideal but it doesn't seem terrible, you just have to not run empyrial archangel.
Sorry realize the question wasn't directed toward me, but my 2-cents I've never been a big fan of sideboarding in stuff like that, since it just always seems to take away from the consistency of my draw (and getting to 3 mana is like mid-game for reanimator lol). Not only that, Reanimator's effectiveness is in its speed since its such an aggro deck, so its main focus should be "how do I win" vs "how do I not die" against some of these mid decks, so I think if there is any hate then it needs to be incorporated into its gameplan. ie. I "could" board in pyroclasm against goblins, or I could just bring in Bogardon Hellkites. But in some instances against extremely fast clocks that CAN be a good idea, so I dunno.

[aljiichiban]

Would sideboarding perish be a plausible option? It isn't ideal but it doesn't seem terrible, you just have to not run empyrial archangel.

Somebody suggested -daze/hapless/duress for +needle/SnT/echoing truth/perish. I'm just not sure what to cut.

I've seen a suggestion a few pages back to create a new primer for this deck. Will this push through, or do we need to wait after the new Banned/Restricted list?

[ThomasDowd]

Would sideboarding perish be a plausible option? It isn't ideal but it doesn't seem terrible, you just have to not run empyrial archangel.

too narrow. doesn't do enough. and no the angel wins games where you can't due to shroud plus negating <8 damage a turn. way too relevant sometimes. i'm probably just playing it( the match) wrong.

[chags]

too narrow. doesn't do enough. and no the angel wins games where you can't due to shroud plus negating <8 damage a turn. way too relevant sometimes. i'm probably just playing it( the match) wrong.


If not perish then I guess just playing more pithing needles is the way to go? Show and Tell seems weak against bant when they can just drop karakas, kotr to get karakas, or jtms to deal with your threat. Needle seems great here but they have so many relevant cards to name with it that it seems like it won't be enough. Anyone with more experience against the bant match up want to chime in?

[Einherjer]

I dont play Reanimator but serveral Show and Tell decks, and Ive been playing Bant, or KotR-decks serveral times.

And youre right, Show and Tell into non-Progenitus is pretty weak, because as you already mentioned they get a good answer most of the times (btw they cant ShowandTell a JTMS in), and so, the needles are very effective, I for my part always name Karakas when I draw them earlier, or Jace..

Greetings

[Mystical_Jackass]

too narrow. doesn't do enough. and no the angel wins games where you can't due to shroud plus negating <8 damage a turn. way too relevant sometimes. i'm probably just playing it( the match) wrong.

Isn't Akroma nearly strictly better than Empyrial in almost every way? I'm trying to think the pros of each...

Akroma
1) Haste, faster clock
2) 6 damage vs 5 = sometimes makes 3 turn clock if they fetch, Bob or had to force
3) Vigilance, allows her to do essentially same thing Empyrial does as blocker
4) Pro Red/Black, Tombstalker & Piledriver become obsolete

Empyrial
1) She's basically a Plat Angel with shroud against burn, might keep you alive an extra turn or two

It seems to me the only reason to run would be against some random matchups like Belcher as a hate spell.

[Vandalize]

Isn't Akroma nearly strictly better than Empyrial in almost every way? I'm trying to think the pros of each...

Akroma
1) Haste, faster clock
2) 6 damage vs 5 = sometimes makes 3 turn clock if they fetch, Bob or had to force
3) Vigilance, allows her to do essentially same thing Empyrial does as blocker
4) Pro Red/Black, Tombstalker & Piledriver become obsolete

Empyrial
1) She's basically a Plat Angel with shroud against burn, might keep you alive an extra turn or two

It seems to me the only reason to run would be against some random matchups like Belcher as a hate spell.

Eats a swords to plowshares like a boss. Empyrial Archangel is good against swarms as well.

[Jakgotbak]

Isn't Akroma nearly strictly better than Empyrial in almost every way? I'm trying to think the pros of each...

Akroma
1) Haste, faster clock
2) 6 damage vs 5 = sometimes makes 3 turn clock if they fetch, Bob or had to force
3) Vigilance, allows her to do essentially same thing Empyrial does as blocker
4) Pro Red/Black, Tombstalker & Piledriver become obsolete

Empyrial
1) She's basically a Plat Angel with shroud against burn, might keep you alive an extra turn or two

It seems to me the only reason to run would be against some random matchups like Belcher as a hate spell.

Other people may have other reasons for running Archangel, but I always saw her as the go-to answer to a resolved Jace. In fact, against UW Stoneblade, she pretty much blanks the whole opposing deck. Akroma can kind of do the same thing, assuming they don't have a Plow or Karakas at the ready, but that's a pretty big assumption.

[xfxf]

Isn't Akroma nearly strictly better than Empyrial in almost every way? I'm trying to think the pros of each...

Akroma
1) Haste, faster clock
2) 6 damage vs 5 = sometimes makes 3 turn clock if they fetch, Bob or had to force
3) Vigilance, allows her to do essentially same thing Empyrial does as blocker
4) Pro Red/Black, Tombstalker & Piledriver become obsolete

Empyrial
1) She's basically a Plat Angel with shroud against burn, might keep you alive an extra turn or two

It seems to me the only reason to run would be against some random matchups like Belcher as a hate spell.

In the context you're comparing Akroma I think Sphinx of the Steel Wind would be strictly better because it also gives you 6 life with each hit.

[oRen]

Show and Tell seems weak against bant when they can just drop karakas, kotr to get karakas, or jtms to deal with your threat.
Hopefully none has ever done this against you :laugh:

Regarding archangel: while it is true that the angel can get you an extra one or two turns when you are in a really rough spot where nothing else would help Iona + Sphinx will do their job better against red based stuff and Inkwell Leviathan will be superior in Uxx matchups. That said I think Leviathan is the shroud creature to go for.

[Syaoran]

Hi;

I've been looking at a few lists, and I'm wondering:

Is there a significant difference between running Blazing Archon and Platinum Emperium? They seem to fill the same roll for me, is one better than the other, and which one should I run over the other?

Obviously, Archon is better against Eldrazi, and Plat is better V something like ANT. Meta is unknown, but I'm likely to encounter a small number (maybe one deck) of each.

Thanks!

[Dia_Bot]

Personally I would always play blazing archon above Platiunum emperion.
To make a quick comparison:

Plat Emperion
+ 8/8
+ can't lose life
- artifact
- cant play life (no Fow, no fetchlands)
- no evasion
- useless vs eldrazi

Blazing archon
+ evasion
+ better vs eldrazi
- worse vs Tendrils of agony/burn

[moseby]

As much as I love reanimator. I have decided to hang up the deck for a little while as I am sick of seeing target 1 get surgically extracted, then target 2 get snapcaster surgically extracted.

The biggest problem that I see for me when playing reanimator is what type of hate are they packing?
Is it extraction, extirpate, crypt, relic, scavenging ooze, faerie macabre, or leyline?

[Koby]

As much as I love reanimator. I have decided to hang up the deck for a little while as I am sick of seeing target 1 get surgically extracted, then target 2 get snapcaster surgically extracted.

The biggest problem that I see for me when playing reanimator is what type of hate are they packing?
Is it extraction, extirpate, crypt, relic, scavenging ooze, faerie macabre, or leyline?

Don't forget the invariable Knight of the Reliquary -> Karakas or Maze of Ith; which limits the targets that you can realistically get against KotR decks.

[mr.marvellous]

Hi there, fellows. I can't afford dual lands and all those great U spells and other stuff introduced here yet, but I do love the concept of reanimation, so I have decided to go for a B mono deck, but since I am quite a MTG newbie I need some advice. What do you guys think about this one?

2 Bladewing the Risen
4 Bogardan Hellkite
3 Hellkite Overlord
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

Creatures [11]

4 Buried Alive
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
2 Go for the Throat
2 Last Rites
3 Patriarch's Bidding
4 Reanimate

Spells [29]

20 Swamp


(From: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=849562)

Are there any proven mono B reanimator decks? I would appreciate any comments and suggestions. What do you guys think it would be appropriate to have in the sideboard?

[MirrorMask]

@mr.marvellous:

From my point of view:
-2 Last Rites
-3 Patriarch's Bidding
+4 animate dead
-all dragons
+the usual creature stuff

If you have access to fetchelands+watery graves then use them and put the at least some brainstorms and careful study and also ponderif you like.

If you can put together ONLY a black version then add
to the aforementioned instead of counter spells:
+2 duress
+ unmask (instead of force of willif you find it worthy)
+ inquisition of kozilek / thoughtseize
Having removal is sweet but not mandatory because your reanimation targets usually cover it. As for the creatures NEVER,NEVER,NEVER use those who don't have some kind of protection or are game breaking against many decks.

p.s : You can also try lotus petals. They can speed you up quite a bit! Also what is your sideboard ? What do you expect to face at your local meta?

[mr.marvellous]

Also what is your sideboard ? What do you expect to face at your local meta?

Valuable advice, thank you. I have observed only one tournament match for a short time yet, but it should be typical for my meta. I don't really know the concepts and deck constructions but there are so called "Canada" decks and cards I remember for sure are Goyfs, Jaces and brainstorms. Everyone had duals. Is it possible to guess, what kind of a sideboard is to be considered against those opponents?-) I will have to find out more..

[Parax]

Valuable advice, thank you. I have observed only one tournament match for a short time yet, but it should be typical for my meta. I don't really know the concepts and deck constructions but there are so called "Canada" decks and cards I remember for sure are Goyfs, Jaces and brainstorms. Everyone had duals. Is it possible to guess, what kind of a sideboard is to be considered against those opponents?-) I will have to find out more..

The deck that you were watching was Canadian Thresh. It would be under the decks to beat section in tempo thresh, its the rug version. Empiryiral Archangel against that deck. As most of their removal would be burn cards.

[MirrorMask]

Yep Canadian threshold it is. I haven't played against this deck yet but if it has blue in it then wouldn't inkwell leviathan be better against it? As I recall they run
tarmogoyfs and nimble mongooses as well as other powerful stuff. They can kill empyrial archangel quite fast while the leviathan just passes through 7 dmg each turn and can block while not dieing.

You will have to check what the rest of the field is before deciding on a sideboard.
There is an easy way to do it : just play against them even with sub par sideboard.
Don't forget to include pithing needle and pray they don't bring in leyline of the void because being all black doesn't give any bounce spells which sucks...

[Parax]

Well against RUG there is burn which the archangel soaks up well. The way i see it is that with the inkwell, you're still going to be racing them. 7 damage at a time, against their Goofys and Geese. And frankly i think RUG would win the race. But with the Archangel, you can attack and soak at the same time.

Inkwell i would use for BUG Control tho instead of RUG Tempo. May seem like a small difference in the deck.

[MirrorMask]

You are somewhat correct on this one. I totally forgot to count :tongue::tongue::tongue: !!! Yeah goyf gets strong quite fast...
The problem still exists though lighting bolt (3dmg)+ goyf(4dmg)+mongoose(lets say 1 dmg) and archangel bites the dust.
Same with a 3/3 mongoose +4/5 goyf.

[alphastryk]

Actually, in my experience against RUG, you just get Sphinx of the Steel Wind, as they have a lot of trouble killing it and can't really attack past it.

[MirrorMask]

This is also correct :tongue: . Anyway, we have many fatties to chose from...

[Jules]

I play the Deck for a very short time now.

My biggest Problem is the sideboarding. Often i don't know what to board , because i don't know wheter my opponents packs in stuff like Relic/crypt or even Leyline (Needle or SnT?) or Surgical Extraction.

Or it is the case that i know what has to go in, but not what has to go out in regard to not disrupting my own gameplan.

Could someone please post their "standart" boarding strategies against the certains Decks to Beat and respectively not only what you side in, but also what you side out.

"I'm sorry for my bad english" ;)

Update: My List

Mainboard:

3x Island
2x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviatan
1x Angel of Despair
1x Iona Shield of Emeria
3x Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur

4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Animate Dead
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
1x Misdirection
3x Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

2x Duress
2x Flusterstorm
3x Show and Tell
3x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle
1x Blazing Archon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One

[xfxf]

Not much action going on in this thread for the past couple weeks. I'm curious about everyone's sideboarding strategies too.

I'm looking into Reanimator for BoM but I'm worried about being hated out too much by Bant and Maverick dominance and while everyone else is packing graveyard hate.

[moseby]

I have been playing reanimator for years. As much as I love the deck I am growing sick of have the crap being hated out of it. The last straw for me was plays like extraction ,snapcaster, extraction, or plow, snapcaster, plow.

Maverick can be tough game 2 - 3 as they will bring in paths and they will have knight into karakas if we show & tell. Also they can GSZ into scavenging ooze, which is always fun.

[aljiichiban]

Somebody suggested Perish/Virtue's ruin if the meta is heavy with Bant and GW Mavs. Probably SnT can be replaced since they cost 3cmc.

[Koby]

Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, and Dispel are usually enough. Maverick doesn't have that much of an advantage provided you board in the right cards and take out the dead creatures (legends, non-shourds, etc).

[Skurt]

I play the Deck for a very short time now.

My biggest Problem is the sideboarding. Often i don't know what to board , because i don't know wheter my opponents packs in stuff like Relic/crypt or even Leyline (Needle or SnT?) or Surgical Extraction.

Or it is the case that i know what has to go in, but not what has to go out in regard to not disrupting my own gameplan.

Could someone please post their "standart" boarding strategies against the certains Decks to Beat and respectively not only what you side in, but also what you side out.

"I'm sorry for my bad english" ;)


A couple of pages back (p.137) there were a guy who did post some "standard" borading strategies.
Here's a link to the specific reply: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-DTB-Reanimator&p=579427&viewfull=1#post579427

My latest list:
CREATURES (8)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Angel of Despair
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Animate Dead
SORCERIES (13)
1 Show and Tell
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
INSTANTS (20)
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Entomb
LANDS (17)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Terastodon
1 Blazing Archon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize

I usualy board S&T and Truth if I'm not sure what my opponents bring in. Mostly becasue I feel so bad if they have Leyline and begin with it in play and I run Misdirection in main.

Misdirection is that good, really it's like having a couple of extra FoW's. And also sick against Surgical and sometimes Plow.It can turn any match.

Cards I board out first is: 1-2 Daze, 1-2 Animate Dead/Exhume (depends om matchup.) and a Gitaxias. Sometimes 1 Careful Study.

Other notes:
I'm not very happy with Terastodon, casue I often want to hit creatures. And Angel is so much better with S&T. Sugesstions on replacements?

[Benke]

Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, and Dispel are usually enough. Maverick doesn't have that much of an advantage provided you board in the right cards and take out the dead creatures (legends, non-shourds, etc).

I agree that pithing needle is a key card to board in, dispel Im not sure about (wouldnt it be nice to counter GSZ?). I usually board in one show and tell (ooze is a bitch) aswell against Maverick.
The match up seem as hard after board IMO. Pridemage kills my needle, KotR (+karakas) kills 6/8 guys, swords kill angel of dispair and KotR/goyf/whatever outraces empyrical archangel. Wouldnt a sweaper (nature's ruin) be able to help us here or is CMC 3 too slow?

[Koby]

I agree that pithing needle is a key card to board in, dispel Im not sure about (wouldnt it be nice to counter GSZ?). I usually board in one show and tell (ooze is a bitch) aswell against Maverick.
The match up seem as hard after board IMO. Pridemage kills my needle, KotR (+karakas) kills 6/8 guys, swords kill angel of dispair and KotR/goyf/whatever outraces empyrical archangel. Wouldnt a sweaper (nature's ruin) be able to help us here or is CMC 3 too slow?

Dispel is against StP/PtE. Force of Will, Daze, Thoughtseize, and Needle should be able to hand most of the rest of the answers. The problem for Maverick lies in that the only threat the deck has against Reanimator is KotR. Everything else is a reactive answer, and they typically won't have enough time to win in a race condition if you disrupt those answers.

[bfeingersh]

Congrats to Harduvel (^^^ and Rukcus) for making the semis of the SCG LA open this weekend!

Unfortunately I was hoping the Source would take down 1st/2nd as opposed to 3rd/4th, but what can you do :( You guys played very well in the matches that were covered.

[Benke]

Ok. How do we beat a hate card that's as powerful as leyline for 1 colorless? out with the needles and fill the board with bounce/shownTells?

[Cloud_88]

I think it's the end of reanimator archetype... have you seen " undertacker's cage", the new card of Dark Ascension?

[jcsy]

I think it's the end of reanimator archetype... have you seen " undertacker's cage", the new card of Dark Ascension?

you meant this ?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

yup, this calls for mental misstep :D

[dameus]

Speaking of hate cards:

http://puremtgo.com/sites/default/files/u604/grafdiggers_cage.jpg

I think this will find it's way into a lot of sideboards!

[lordofthepit]

I think it's the end of reanimator archetype... have you seen " undertacker's cage", the new card of Dark Ascension?

The new cage is devastating to Dredge. It's one of the weakest pieces of hate against Reanimator though. You just play your deck as you normally would, then play a piece of bounce on your opponent's end step and win the game. Or play Show and Tell to circumvent all graveyard hate.

It's not nearly as bad as Knight of the Reliquary, which shut down your best targets and is nearly an autoloss if they have it in their hand for your Show and Tell plan. It's not Phyrexian Metamorph, which answers literally every single card in the deck. It's not Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus, which requires you to put together a discard outlet + reanimate effect twice, or jump through hoops with Entomb + Exhume tricks (and still resets all the work you've put into the graveyard if you manage to bounce it). It's not Scavenging Ooze, which shuts down any grave-based plan if your opponent has green mana open. It's not Faerie Macabre, which you can't see coming and have no answer to outside a preemptive Pithing Needle or a Thoughtseize.

It is, however, better than Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is way too slow against us. It is not as good as a Leyline of the Void in the opening hand, although I'd rather face Leylines as gravehate (if my opponent isn't guaranteed to have it in his opening hand). The Cage is also more effective than Surgical Extraction (although close), which only takes away one of your targets and can be easily countered.

[wcm8]

This card is actually pretty weak vs. reanimator. Like other artifact hate, it can be countered, bounced, and discarded and doesn't affect Show and Tell. Unlike other artifact hate, it doesn't remove the graveyard so you can still entomb/careful study and bounce it later.

[MirrorMask]

Yes but you overlook the most important thing. This one STAYS FOREVER while tormod/relic are a one shot effect and can be played around. This is really HUGE imo as 4 anti hate pieces will be way too mediocre against it because you absolutely have to draw/have an answer for it. How many anti hate are you willing to bring in for it? We have 8 counterspells as well but if it gets through then MEH...!!!

[millerd33]

Yes but you overlook the most important thing. This one STAYS FOREVER while tormod/relic are a one shot effect and can be played around. This is really HUGE imo as 4 anti hate pieces will be way too mediocre against it because you absolutely have to draw/have an answer for it. How many anti hate are you willing to bring in for it? We have 8 counterspells as well but if it gets through then MEH...!!!

8 free counters
3 Echoing Truth
3 show and tell

Could be time to start moving the SnT into the maindeck?

[Moraxus]

Hi everybody

First of all sorry for my english.

Anyway..


This one STAYS FOREVER while tormod/relic are a one shot effect

Ok for Tormod, but Relic also stay forever,and it's easy for the opponent to have it always ready to remove something.

With cage on the board, as say by wcm8 I can entomb and feel more relaxed, waiting for a bounce.
Of course paying attention to surgical.

With relic no.



About SnT maindeck...Imho not more than one if you want a different wincon.

It's too expensive and slow to support him without the mana source of Sneak'nTell.deck

[MirrorMask]

yes but relic gives you a choice you don't have with the new one(if your opponent uses the first ability) otherwise its just an one shot effect. I still believe the new one will need more cards to be moved MD in the 2nd and 3rd game. If you can't remove it you lose. I just haven't decided what to board out...
:cry:

[Master Shake]

yes but relic gives you a choice you don't have with the new one(if your opponent uses the first ability) otherwise its just an one shot effect. I still believe the new one will need more cards to be moved MD in the 2nd and 3rd game. If you can't remove it you lose. I just haven't decided what to board out...
:cry:

I'd like to inform everyone that this is clearly the end of Reanimator and you can now list all of your foil cards on eBay as Buy It Now listings for far under market value.

Seriously.



No, but seriously, seriously. This is really just another card. I mean, if you want to talk about Graveyard hate that seriously destroys Reanimator, Faerie Macabre, Extripate, Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Withered Wretch, Scavenging Ooze and Leyline of the Void all exist already. This card, unlike every other card listed above keeps your graveyard in tact, which means you can literally set up while they screw around with the cage in play, and then you can remove it at your leisure.

However, even if it is the end of the world, this card doesn't really change what your sideboard plan should basically already be, which is either 3-4 Show and Tell and 4-5 answers to hate or just 7-9 varied answers to hate.

There will be hands that cage will actually be better against, but there are also going to be hands where it's a rather poor card. And unlike something such as Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre, you'll always be able to see it coming and plan accordingly.

[Kryptor]

About Sideboarding:

Show and Tell is no option for the Main Deck. You dont want to play so slow in game 1. If you want to, you should add some Emrakuls, sneak Atack and intuition. You normaly just win the first Game.

I have read the Thread on page 137 about boarding, but maybe show and tell should now be an autoinclude in game 2. Shure, Extirpate belongs to black decks, but Macabre and extraction are still out there and even you can handle 1 extraction, then comes Snapcaster, extraction, go.

I think you can board against the special hate you have seen in game 3.

What do you think ? Should Show and Tell played in every 2nd game ?

[Skurt]

About Sideboarding:

Show and Tell is no option for the Main Deck. You dont want to play so slow in game 1. If you want to, you should add some Emrakuls, sneak Atack and intuition. You normaly just win the first Game.

I have read the Thread on page 137 about boarding, but maybe show and tell should now be an autoinclude in game 2. Shure, Extirpate belongs to black decks, but Macabre and extraction are still out there and even you can handle 1 extraction, then comes Snapcaster, extraction, go.

I think you can board against the special hate you have seen in game 3.

What do you think ? Should Show and Tell played in every 2nd game ?

No, I think you missed a bit. If your opponent drops Knight you lose the game unless you allready have a strong board position. And then you should already have won.

But against almost every other deck I think S&T is the way to go. If I'm not sure what hate they bring in I board 2 S&T and 2 Truth. And maybe a Thoughtseize or two.

I find UR Delver a hard MU. They are incredibly fast and consistent. Often when you get a fat guy you already have lost due to delver and bolt + snapcaster and it's hard when they have more counters tjäna you

[csy]

I like playing against ur delver. Sphinx and archangel lock then down. Rug tempo is more annoying Imo.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

full disclosure I do not play reanimator.
I like the deck, just never got on board with it.
I just really wanted to read about and talk about the new Cage. No other forum has to deal with it more.

The cage though is probably the first viable card printed that is pointed towards one deck, Reanimator, but snags so many others. There has not been a magical tragedy so overwhelingly blatant against a deck since Null Rod was printed, and then with Stony Silence, and then before with Energy Flux. And honestly it is about time, Iona is such an unfair card to begin with, the rest of the format deserved something.
Come to think about it, Wizards has been hating on Black and Artifact for a long time.
Energy Flux-Null Rod-Stony Silence (and more) for artifact based decks. Tormod's Crypt-Faerie Mcobre-Relic of Progeitus-Grafdigger's cage (and more) for Reanimator. It is not Affinity's fault Wizards broke the system, but it is all your fault that you splashed Blue into an already lethal deck to both speed it up, and add in counter magic. (I am kidding)

although I will say this. It is unfair all in all. The chances that you will have a game winning answer to the cage if you let it resolve by the time your opponent has board control are minimal at best. Maverick wont cast it on you. they would lessen the effectiveness of the deck, against your deck. Most of them have started running counter magic anyway. Snapcaster's will just be boarded out. But Goblins, Sligh, and Burn can all cast it turn one, and then you basically have two more turns to figure it out before things get to out of hand for you.

Wizards made this stupid card, because it is in their interest to try and force the community every so often to stop playing all one deck.

the format now is flooded with 4 different Maverick decks. GWR GWB GW BigZoo is basically Maverick. Then there is 3 different Delver decks.

followed by a few dozen variants of stoneforge which basically are all Delver or Maverick shells with stoneforge mystic in them.

then the format is rounded off with a few dozen Reanimator players, and the few (actual maverick players) who play rogue decks.

The Cage stops or slows down most of these decks. theoretically it stops Reanimator. I say theoretically because obviously there are answers. maverick decks get slowed no NO or GSZ no more snapcaster so on and so on.

[millerd33]

full disclosure I do not play reanimator.
I like the deck, just never got on board with it.
I just really wanted to read about and talk about the new Cage. No other forum has to deal with it more.

The cage though is probably the first viable card printed that is pointed towards one deck, Reanimator, but snags so many others. There has not been a magical tragedy so overwhelingly blatant against a deck since Null Rod was printed, and then with Stony Silence, and then before with Energy Flux. And honestly it is about time, Iona is such an unfair card to begin with, the rest of the format deserved something.
Come to think about it, Wizards has been hating on Black and Artifact for a long time.
Energy Flux-Null Rod-Stony Silence (and more) for artifact based decks. Tormod's Crypt-Faerie Mcobre-Relic of Progeitus-Grafdigger's cage (and more) for Reanimator. It is not Affinity's fault Wizards broke the system, but it is all your fault that you splashed Blue into an already lethal deck to both speed it up, and add in counter magic. (I am kidding)

although I will say this. It is unfair all in all. The chances that you will have a game winning answer to the cage if you let it resolve by the time your opponent has board control are minimal at best. Maverick wont cast it on you. they would lessen the effectiveness of the deck, against your deck. Most of them have started running counter magic anyway. Snapcaster's will just be boarded out. But Goblins, Sligh, and Burn can all cast it turn one, and then you basically have two more turns to figure it out before things get to out of hand for you.

Wizards made this stupid card, because it is in their interest to try and force the community every so often to stop playing all one deck.

the format now is flooded with 4 different Maverick decks. GWR GWB GW BigZoo is basically Maverick. Then there is 3 different Delver decks.

followed by a few dozen variants of stoneforge which basically are all Delver or Maverick shells with stoneforge mystic in them.

then the format is rounded off with a few dozen Reanimator players, and the few (actual maverick players) who play rogue decks.

The Cage stops or slows down most of these decks. theoretically it stops Reanimator. I say theoretically because obviously there are answers. maverick decks get slowed no NO or GSZ no more snapcaster so on and so on.

I don't feel the cage changes any part of reanimator. It's worse then leyline of the void. If cage starts making it into more and more main decks then changes to the deck will have to be made. As it stands now under cage game 2 and 3 just play like you were playing around leyline except and here is the important part. You can still be fueling your yard while sculpting your hand to bounce cage and bring out more threats (prob with protection)

[oRen]

It's worse then leyline of the void.
You can counter it and as stated by yourself you can still fill the grave while the card is in play - therefore this is wrong.
Maybe going back to Spell Pierce instead of Flusterstorm is not the worst idea but time will tell.

1. Do you guys feel that SnT is an essential sb card? I made many crappy experiences ... and overall rather lost than won due playing this card. Imho it is good vs anything black (Bxx / Xbx / Xxb) - but that is it. I has a great downside in SO many matchups.

2. What creature do you entomb versus Maverik. Consideration of any state of the game, boardsituation etc is highly appreciated.

3. Where is the point in running MD Terastodon or Angel of Despair ?

[Tinefol]

1. Absolutely not. I only run it because it somewhat circumvents Leyline of the void (which I rarely see, and usually only black decks run it). Its awful against decks with KoTR, which many people seem to run, and you are limited in what you're able to put into play, which usually is just Jin (since you run multiples), and not too great against other decks.

2. If they don't have a Karakas, but not tapped out and have no solid board state, I'm going for Iona for white (they might hold the Karakas in hand, but the chances are not that great).

If they're tapped out, and don't have a Karakas on board, I'm going for Jin, since that ensures I get 7 new cards and usually if you get new 7, you're able to play through Karakas by getting a few more reanimate attempts on non-legendary things.

If they drop a Karakas, and I have a few reanimation attempts in my hand, I'll go for a first non-legendary non-Archon target (Sphinx/Angel/Archangel) so that they waste their STP, or anyhow try to deal with it. Then I'll go for Archon. If I only have one Entomb, I'll go for Blazing Archon. If you run Angel of Despair, I guess you could use it to nail Karakas, then look up for another reanimation target, but it usually isn't able to race anything and oftentimes you only have one reanimation attempt.

If I'm dying on board, I'll go for Archon as well.

Elesh Norn can be randomly useful, if they have a bunch of mana dorks and moms online, or tapped out with Scavenging Ooze - you really don't want that to surivive.

3. I think both are pretty awful, but I think Angel is better and guess you can run it in S/B. Come on, running vindicate isn't something this deck is trying to accomplish, since its a mere 5/5 with flying, which in my experience, a bunch of decks are able to race (or just exile/destroy). All other targets either provide solid advantage, or can't be raced/killed.

[csy]

I dont MD don, but angel is great, destroying a permanent can always come in handy. vs maverick, I typically go for archangel first. she presents a good early clock, and soaks up a lot of damage during the early portions of the fight.

4 show and tell will always be in my board I think. I was running 2 in the MD, but it didnt really work out against the matchups that I thought it would. Currently Im considering trying peer through depths instead of 2-3 ponders. I know its spell snare bait but with 25-28 cards that peer through depths can hit it seems like a great digger.

Another thing that Id love to get your guys opinions on are the titans. Grave/frost specifically. They both make a board presence immediately, Grave titan leaves you with Geist killers, and chump blockers/edict soakers. Frost titan makes StP PtE a 3 mana removal spell, as well as locks down a mana/attacker. Just something I've been mulling over in my head.

[Skurt]

I like playing against ur delver. Sphinx and archangel lock then down. Rug tempo is more annoying Imo.

Ofcourse when you get your Sphinx, you'll probobly win. Becasue whey have no answer when it's on the field. The problem is to get there with enough life to survive a bolt or two.

Say they go first with Delver or Guide. Hits 2-3 times and you get Chained. Now you'll have ~10 life left after some fetches and a fow. Then you must win a counter war against a deck with more counters. That's the hard part.

I think this match depends very much on who's going first.

[oRen]

very long post
Thanks. This is a very nice post because it matches with most of my thoughts. :laugh:

>2. Do you think that Elesh deserves a spot because of the Ooze? IMO other creatures do the job better most of the time which makes Elesh some kind of overkill - also 4/7 Legendary will rarely win you rough games alone where the other usual creatures would not win.

>3. IMO Angel is the much better creature for the maindeck but Terastodon is much better for the sideboard. Angel is more versatile because it can blow up creatures while Terastodon can present an insane one turn clock or blow multiple annoying things in random matchups like Lands, MUD or Enchantress.

---

I played four rounds today ending up 3-1:
1. Mono White Lifegain 2-1
- Iona W
- I lose to relic + a lot of creatures
- Iona W
2. Enchantress 2-1
- I can only animate Sphinx twice which gets killed twice by Seal of Primodium + Replenish. I concede with lifetotals of 28-2. I forget about pro green twice and deserve to lose...
- Iona W
- Iona W
3. Canadian 2-1
- Sphinx
- I lose to creatures, counters and crypts
- Even with some punts I am lucky enough to win with Sphinx
4. Uwr Stoneblade 1-2
- I got him on UR Delver and go for Sphinx which eats StoP. After that I go for Gin and win
- I got a hand like Entomb + 4 animation spells. Entomb brings Leviathan ... which sadly never enters the battlefield ...
- Turn 1 Thoughtseize reveals REB, Brainstorm, 5 Lands. I pick the Brainstorm. I manage to get a creature in the yard but well ... lets just say he drew pretty well. I tried it hard and did not punt (from my point of view) but never manage to bring it back. After the game he reveals double Force + something blue. Nuts.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Hey guys... just starting playing reanimator. This arcehtype is really attractive to me because of how often you God draw and can turn 2 something against non blue decks, and often turn 2 against blue, with Force backup. I run a really conventional list with the exception of including Putrid Imps and the lack of MD 'Seizes... this is something I'm looking for advice on. I too often find, that with 8 targets, I end up with them in my hand and no CS to ditch them. I also like PImp more than hapless Researcher because he can actually become a relevant threat if the game gets stalled, a 2/2 flyer isn't anything to scoff at. Of course Researcher pitches to FoW but te blue count is already pretty good I think. I'm mostly looking for advice on tweaking the MD, anything I should have in the SB that I don't and how to SB against Stoneblade, RUG Tempo and Team America.

Here is my list

x1 Inkwell Leviathan
x1 Blazing Archon
x1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
x2 Iona Shield of Emeria
x3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

x4 Force of Will
x4 Daze
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Careful Study
x2 Ponder

x2 Putrid Imp
x3 Animate Dead
x3 Reanimate
x4 Exhume
x4 Entomb

x4 Underground Sea
x4 Polluted Delta
x3 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Flooded Strand
x3 Island
x2 Swamp

sb

x1 Angel of Despair
x3 Pithing Needle
x4 Echoing Truth
x3 Thoughtseize
x4 Spell Pierce (not sure if this should be Dispel)

Not sure if they Angel in the SB is worth it. I've been completely underwhelmed with Angel / Terastodon MD as I only ever blow up Batterskulls with them, I thought I'd be doing all this awesome stuff like blowing up Jaces, lands and Goyfs FTW... but it has been underwhelming and even though angel has flying it is easily killed and only provides a 4 turn clock by itself.

[oRen]

PImp also interacts nicely with graveyard hate + exhume but when directly compared to researcher you have -1 hand card when discarding 1 creature. Also researcher is a pretty good blocker for batterskull which is far from not being relevant these days.

I was fine with 16 lands ever since. You do not get flooded a lot?

4 Reanimate are an absolute must.

No Thoughtseize is pretty bad. Though I rarely target myself and use them as discard I won numerous games by discarding enemy creatures and reanimating them.

---
My list not that far from yours ... but maybe a little more teched out.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [NPH] Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
2 [JU] Hapless Researcher

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [B] Animate Dead
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [OD] Coffin Purge [could be anything else]
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [TE] Perish [could be SnT]

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Good point about the Batterskull / Researcher interaction, you're right that is relevant. I think I could go down to 17 lands and play x4 Reanimate, but I'd still need room MD for 2-3 Thoughtsezies, I just don't know what to cut.

Just curious, why Snow Covered basics? I know the varied Fetch base, outside of Deltas, is to dodge Pithing Needle and Surgical Extraction, I should probably do that too I guess.

I noticed you're doing the one destruction fatty (Angel of Despair / Terastodon ) in the SB as well... What do you bring it in against?

[oRen]

I play 1 of each snow covered + 1 regular swamp in real life for no particular reason. The fetchland split is far from relevant as the first needle would go on delta anyways but it helps to confuse your opponents from time to time.

I would cut the ponders for TS. One of my friends in Germany successfully runs a very similar list to the one that would result out of that cut.

Regarding Terastodon ... any Combo apart from Hive Mind because a lot of flexibility along with potentially 18 Power in one creature is pretty good and stuff that stalls well like Lands, MUD, Staxx or Enchantress. You also need to replace your bad creatures with better ones in other matchups as just cutting the 2 or 3 bad ones would result in much less consistency.

[Fran]

If you are looking for something to cut for Thoughtsieze you can dump the PImps. They are okay but it feels like Thoughtsieze would be better more often, the ability to double as protection or a discard outlet is good stuff. I would also have some number of Dispel in the side. Spell Pierce is good but games two and three go longer than game one its not totally unlikely they can just pay 3 for a swords and kill your Jin or whatever you have.

This is the list I have been having some success with over the past few weeks.

Jin 3
Sphinx of the steel wind 1
Iona 1
Elesh Norn 1
Angel of vindicate 1
Empyrial archangel 1

force 4
daze 3
brainstorm 4
Ponder 3
Exhume 4
Animate dead 3
Reanimate 4
Entomb 4
Careful Study 4
Thoughtsieze 2

Polluted delta 4
Misty rainforest 3
Verdant 2
Swamp 2
Island 3
Usea 3

Side-
Archon of justice 1
terestadon 1
SHow and tell 3
Thoughtsieze 1
pithing needle 2
echoing truth 2
Chain of vapor 1
Dispel 2
Spell pierce 2

I make little tweeks (to the side board especially) all the time but this is basically what i run and it seems pretty good when i dont screw up

[bfeingersh]

I still run a split of Pierce/Dispel because there's a lot of hate that Pierce is great against but Dispel doesn't hit: GSZ for Ooze or Knight, Jace, 1cc GY hate, etc.

[csy]

I was trying out surgical extraction in the sideboard... on paper it seemed awesome. In practice it proved to be worse than any other 2 cards.

Im curious what you guys think about sideboard creatures for a GP. Would you just stick to stock archon and leviathan? or would you consider increasing count to 3 creatures, Terrastadon/ additional sphinx?

[whitenihilist]

So, I really want Thoughtsieze, but frankly I cannot afford it right now. So I was trying to figure out what would work here instead.

The 3 choices I can think of are, obviously, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Inquisition of Kozilek. Would any of these 3 fill that spot instead? Is there something that I should be running instead? Currently I have this list:

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will

Artifact Creatures
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Creatures
1 Angel of Despair
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Hapless Researcher

Legendary Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

Enchantments
3 Animate Dead

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate

Lands
3 Island
3 swamp
4 Island/swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 mic fetchlands

[MirrorMask]

The FIRST thing this deck absolutely needs is underground seas , less basics and more fetches. As many as you can get. After than that, instead of thoughtseize, you can use duress. Imo you should stay away from inquisition and more so from cabal therapy which is really AWFUL in this deck(what are you going to sacrifice anyway Iona or Jin Kazama???). I ve used duress as an alternative for a long time and was really satisfied with it. Thoughtseize is strictly better though.

[whitenihilist]

The FIRST thing this deck absolutely needs is underground seas , less basics and more fetches. As many as you can get. After than that, instead of thoughtseize, you can use duress. Imo you should stay away from inquisition and more so from cabal therapy which is really AWFUL in this deck(what are you going to sacrifice anyway Iona or Jin Kazama???). I ve used duress as an alternative for a long time and was really satisfied with it. Thoughtseize is strictly better though.


Sorry for the confusion, the for "Island/Swamp" on my list is Underground Sea, I forgot to correct my shorthand.
I was actually wondering today if I should take out 2 basics for 2 more fetches, so thanks there.

I will get duress in and see how I like it. I had a feeling that was going to be the best under Thoughsieze. Trust me when I say I want TS, but I will have to deal with what I have currently.

Anyway, thanks for the advice.

[rxavage]

I ran 2 hapless researcher in my list at first but have now replaced them with 2 spell pierce. I am always happy when i draw pierce and more oft than not spell pierce is more useful and relevant.

[Trailbreaker]

Hi !

I'm not into "Ponder" builds since it's too slow so i sticked to my singleton of Hapless Researcher and Show and Tell. The reason i maindecked Show and Tell is because of the maindeck Scavenging Ooze in green decks especially Maverick. Additional researcher is my 5th careful study because i'm running 8 big fat creatures. It's a good chumpblocker and FOW-pitcher. So without further ado...


1 Show and Tell
3 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
3 Jin Gitaxias
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Angel of Despair
1 Hapless Researcher
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard

3 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Null Rod
1 Sheoldred Whispering One
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon


***********************************************************************************


ROUND ONE: Jeff with ANT


GAME ONE: He started with Duress and stripped my business spells but i managed to drop Iona to end the game.

While we're shuffling, i noticed the bent marks on his cards caused by his shuffling style. Ouch, the Grim Tutors. Thinking that he might have a Doomsday-Emrakul Package, i boarded this way..


IN:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blazing Archon

OUT:

1 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Careful Study
2 Daze

GAME TWO: I mulligan and keep a hand of brainstorm, animate dead, iona, underground sea, and polluted delta. He greeted me with a Thoughtseize, stripping my animate dead. Now both of us started to dig for our combo pieces until he started to count...


So, no Doomsday-Emrakul package!

IN:

2 Daze

OUT:

1 Blazing Archon
1 Pithing Needle

GAME THREE: I keep a hand of Flooded Strand, Underground Sea, Thoughtseize, Entomb, Exhume, Jin Gitaxias, Force of Will and thoughtseized for Brainstorm. Whew! That was a relief! I left him with 3 Lands, 1 Dark Ritual and 2 Chain of god-damn Vapors! He greeted me with a Duress, i FOW, then he pass. Another turn of draw-go, then i-EOT, Entomb for Iona and resurrected my sweet angel. Now that he's unable to play blue spells, he won't be able to CoV Iona or use cantrips to search for combo pieces. But the threat is not over yet since he can still play black spells. He tried to combo out, but i pierced his dark ritual to screw his mana pool.

STANDING: 1-0


***********************************************************************************


ROUND TWO: JL with RUG Delver


GAME ONE: Okay, so i got a one hell of a god draw here. Marsh Flats, Underground Sea, Entomb, Exhume, Force of Will, Force of Will, Jin Gitaxias. I EOT Entomb for Sphinx of Steel Wind since there's no way they can remove this and Exhume attempt on turn two. He pierced my Exhume, i FOW. He dazed my FOW, i FOW. He FOW'd my FOW! I tried to recover by using Animate Dead, then he asked me if he can do anything about it so i honestly told him that he can Stifle it and he did! After that, a big fat Tarmogoyf mauled me to death.


IN:

2 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm

OUT:

1 Daze
1 Brainstorm
1 Careful Study
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Angel of Despair
2 Animate Dead

GAME TWO: Now the way he said, "keep" gives me an idea that he has a good hand, so i mulled to six. Once again, i summoned the great sphinx to the land of the dead but with no protection, it's brain got surgically extracted. I already have Inkwell in my graveyard which i tried to Animated Dead but he stifled it. Now the mad scientist mutated into an Insectile Aberration and swarmed me to death... and don't forget the big fat goyf.


STANDING: 1-1


***********************************************************************************


ROUND THREE: Mono Black Control


During round one, i saw how this guy played his last five turns against Abet so i managed to scout his deck plus MBC is a good match-up for me!


GAME ONE: He opened a first turn Bojuka Bog, good for me. LOL. I threw a Thoughtseize and discarded a major threat, Liliana of the Veil immedietely. He tried to greet me back with a Thoughtseize, i FOW. After that, i EOT-Entomb, Exhume Iona on turn three, he concedes.


IN:

3 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

OUT:

2 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Careful Study

GAME TWO: He mulls, started with a swamp and passed the turn. I thoughtseized him, removed the Surgical Extraction and passed the turn. He didn't play another land so i-EOT Entomb-Iona and rode my angel to victory.


STANDING: 2-1


***********************************************************************************


ROUND FOUR: Zoo with Neil


This guy is my playtest buddy and a teammate. Both of us are already 2-1 standing and knowing that he doesn't stand a chance against Reanimator (based on our playtests), he wanted to give me round three but i declined...


GAME ONE: He played first. An angry Goblin Guide opening bashed me with a lamp while giving me Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I Careful Study for business spells while binning Elesh and Inkwell, Done. He bashed me again for two giving me a Swamp. Neil tapped his plats and taiga as the Lavamancer and Ape joined the cavalry. On my turn, i have no choice but to Reanimate Elesh Norn bringing down my life points to 8. Cavalry wiped out! He changed his game plan by burning me to crisp. I took a Lightning Bolt in the knee but i managed to FOW his Chain Lightning. Finally, i topdecked an Exhume which brought back the dreaded 9/13 Leviathan back to life.


Well... it's lunch time! So he conceded and we decided to take a break.


STANDING: 3-1


***********************************************************************************


ROUND FIVE: Gerald with Painted Stone


Here is my best match because first, fighting combo decks give me pressure, Painted Stone is one hell of a deck and second…


GAME ONE: I threw a Thoughtseize and saw these cards…


Ancient Tomb
Great Furnace
Sensei’s Divining Top
Mox Opal
Goblin Welder
Painter’s Servant
Transmute Artifact

SDT was immediately discarded to prevent him from digging the other half of the combo or find another blue mana producer to access Transmute Artifact. I didn’t pick Painter’s Servant since it can be easily fixed by Mr. Welder, and then I passed my turn. He played a first turn Opal, followed by a topdecked Grindstone! On my turn, I was supposed to Careful Study and Exhume more fatties but it’s kinda pointless because all of his combo pieces are already in play with a back-up Goblin Welder.


IN:

1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

OUT:

1 Daze
1 Show and Tell
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
2 Careful Study

GAME TWO: I got a good opening hand of 2 Lands, Brainstorm, Careful Study, Iona, and Exhume. After few turns of hand-sculpting, He managed to sneak Painter’s Servant in play, painting both of us blue. I reanimated Jin Gitaxias, he FOWs, then I FOW’d as well. I reloaded for seven cards and kept a crappy hand that looked like this: Animate Dead, Animate Dead, Entomb, Entomb, Land, Land and Daze. Done. On his turn, he REBs my Jin Gitaxias but I can’t Daze because he has 4 more extra mana. I lost my every ounce of hope as I put Jin to graveyard and seeing my opponent tap one land for the final combo piece, Grindstone. I dazed it and he pays. Now that he’s one mana short for the Grindstone activation, i-EOT Entomb for Angel of Despair and Exhumed it, destroying Grindstone in the process and sealing the game with Iona for Blue.


GAME THREE: Once again, I kept a strong hand of Entomb, Brainstorm, Polluted Delta, Misty Rainforest, Pithing Needle, Echoing Truth and Null Rod. He played first and has the same solid opening of Great Furnace, Mox Opal, Nihil Spellbomb and Tormod’s Crypt. I played a turn one, Pithing Needle naming Grindstone and second turn Null Rod for double locking his primary win condition, great furnace and both graveyard hates. He managed to play two blue Painter’s Servants (which is fine with me because I can bounce them back) but the second coming of Angel of Despair ended game three.


STANDING: 4-1


***********************************************************************************


ROUND SIX: Ryan with Dredge


I know this guy and he’s one of the top dredge players in the country. So even though Dredge is a good match up, I still need to bring my A-Game. Since there are lots of dredgeful story-telling, I won’t go into details.


GAME ONE: I drew Island, Elesh Norn, Careful Study, Careful Study, Entomb, Reanimate, Animate Dead. I played Careful Study, binned Elesh Norn and Iona but no black mana source. Ryan was able to fill up his graveyard with Careful Studies and Breakthrough. Cabal Therapy really hurts a lot since he stripped all my reanimation spells. After seven turns of digging for black mana, and getting bitten by increasing hordes of zombies, I finally gave up.


IN:

3 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

OUT:

4 Daze
3 Jin Gitaxias
1 Careful Study
1 Inkwell Leviathan

GAME TWO: Ryan used his “ninja-cut” to trim down my opening hand to Reanimate, Entomb, Animate Dead, Marsh Flats, Swamp. I’m pretty sure that he boarded Chain of Vapors but he didn’t play any land so I EOT-Entomb for Elesh Norn to stop the “Thriller Bark”.


GAME THREE: This time, Ryan mulligans and decided to make me play first. I have Show and Tell, 2 Lands, Animate Dead, Careful Study, Reanimate and Brainstorm. I play Land, Go. He plays a land and Careful Study, but no sign of dredgers so I EOT-Brainstorm. I drew an Echoing Truth and cracked a fetchland, Done. Ryan plays another land and casts Putrid Imp and second Careful Study discarding a Golgari Thug. On my turn, I stole his Golgari Thug via Reanimate as Hapless Researcher joined my weenie army. Ryan tapped out by playing creatures, I EOT-Entomb-Animate Dead on Elesh Norn to buff up Golgari Thug and Old Man Researcher. After taking serious damage, he managed to bounce Elesh Norn. He knew that I have Show and Tell to bring back Lady Gaga in play. Ryan dredged to find Cabal Therapy but to no avail.


STANDING: 5-1


***********************************************************************************


ROUND SEVEN: Ron with Goblins


Both of us wanted to play at the Top 8. Intentional Draw is not an option as well, so we didn’t pussy-out and played round seven… LIKE A BOSS.


GAME ONE: Ron summoned a first-turn hungry Goblin Lackey. I played Polluted Delta and passed the turn. Lackey swings for 1 bringing in his boss, Goblin Warchief and another Lackey joins the gang. I EOT-Entomb-Exhume combo Elesh Norn to wipe out the horde plus an Inkwell Leviathan on third turn joined the fun.


Knowing his Leyline-Chalice sideboard, I boarded these cards..


IN:

3 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

OUT:

4 Daze
2 Jin Gitaxias
1 Careful Study
1 Inkwell Leviathan


GAME TWO: Ron mulled to six and successfully pulled a Leyline of the Void on turn zero. I didn’t fret, because here’s my opening hand: Island, Verdant Catacombs, Hapless Researcher, Echoing Truth, Animate Dead, Iona, Force of Will. I played Island, Hapless, done. He didn’t play a land on his second turn. Noticing that he’s mana screwed, I fetched for Swamp and passed the turn. Ron skip another land drop, so EOT, I bounced his Leyline of the Void. In my turn, Old Man Researcher swings for the second time, sacrifice, discard Iona then Reanimate.


STANDING: 6-1


***********************************************************************************


QUARTERFINALS: Daniel with Dredge


GAME ONE: Daniel decided to play first by casting a turn one Careful Study, done. I fetched an Underground Sea then passed the turn. He started to fill up his graveyard but after that i-EOT-Entomb-Reanimate an Elesh Norn.


Same as Ryan, I boarded the same dredge plan shenanigans.


IN:

3 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

OUT:

4 Daze
3 Jin Gitaxias
1 Careful Study
1 Inkwell Leviathan
GAME TWO: Again, Daniel decided to play first but unfortunately he mulled to six. So, he played a Gemstone Mine and casts a Careful Study. I have a Force of Will but I decided to let it pass so I can protect my creatures from Chain of Vapors. Daniel draws 2, but failed to discard dredgers. I fetched an Underground Seas, Careful Study, binned Elesh Norn and Sphinx of the Steel Wind and passed the turn. He draws another card, done. With no dredgers present, I Entomb-Reanimate my Angel of Despair destroying his single land and giving him a clean battlefield. After my first swing, I played Exhume but he responded with a Faerie Macabre sending Elesh Norn and Sphinx to oblivion and giving him a 2/2 chumpblocker. In the end, he finally succumbed to Angel of Despair.



***********************************************************************************

SEMIFINALS: Neil with Reanimator

It’s now getting late and I need to wake up early for work but I still have the energy to go on…

GAME ONE: I kept a sweet hand of Careful Study, Brainstorm, Jin Gitaxias, Exhume, Force of Will and 2 Lands. I played a land, done. He played another land, done. I dropped my second land but I don’t have enough resources yet to do a Careful Study-Jin-Exhume, so I passed the turn. He EOT-Entomb-Iona and used Reanimate on his turn, I FOW, then he FOW’d my FOW. Iona for black ended game one.


IN:

2 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sheoldred

OUT:

2 Exhume
1 Careful Study
1 Show and Tell
1 Brainstorm
1 Sphinx of Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn


GAME TWO: I fetched an Underground Sea, Hapless Researcher and passed the turn. Neil played a Bloodstained Mire then passed the turn, i-EOT Brainstorm to search for Thoughtseize or counter spell. I played my second land, Verdant Catacombs. Hapless Researcher attacks for one, sacrifice, discard Inkwell Leviathan. I cast Reanimate, shaving my life points down to 10. He EOT, Entomb for Empyrial Archangel. After that, Neil played his second land and cast Reanimate. I dazed Reanimate, he pays, I fetched another Underground Sea then dazed again. Inkwell Leviathan mowed him.


IN:

1 Brainstorm
1 Careful Study

OUT:

2 Daze

GAME THREE: We played Draw-Go for several turns. After sculpting our hand, I began to initiate the counter wars by playing Careful Study, Jin Gitaxias, Animate Dead. I lost the counter war, and then he took away my Jin Gitaxias using Reanimate. He drew 7 cards then passed the turn. I Wipe Away Jin Gitaxias then on my next turn I tried again to combo out with Careful Study and Reanimate. He FOW’d. I was hoping to topdeck an Echoing Truth, but I think he already have a wall of counter magic. In the end, my own Jin Gitaxias turned against me.


CONCLUSION

It’s already midnight, so both agreed to split the 1st and 2nd prize. So out of 107 players, I finished at 3rd place and won a Taiga for my personal card pool.

I hope you enjoy reading! Thanks !

[csy]

great report, thanks for sharing. Telling the RUG delver how to play his deck was a pretty bad call in a bad matchup, but other than that interesting list and congrats on the taiga. would you run the same list at the next event or would you make changes?

[Trailbreaker]

Maindeck:
Most decks have 3 dazes, but i still prefer 4 copies. I might replace Show and Tell mainboard with 3rd Echoing Truth or Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
I will replace Sheoldred with Empyrial Archangel or Terrastodon.
Two Flusterstorms are kinda bad for now, since combo decks can be easily screwed by FOW, Daze and Thoughtseize. So, i'll replace them with two Duress/Thoughtseize or combination.

[jares]

GAME TWO: Again, Daniel decided to play first but unfortunately he mulled to six. So, he played a Gemstone Mine and casts a Careful Study. I have a Force of Will but I decided to let it pass so I can protect my creatures from Chain of Vapors. Daniel draws 2, but failed to discard dredgers. I fetched an Underground Seas, Careful Study, binned Elesh Norn and Sphinx of the Steel Wind and passed the turn. He draws another card, done. With no dredgers present, I Entomb-Reanimate my Angel of Despair destroying his single land and giving him a clean battlefield. After my first swing, I played Exhume but he responded with a Faerie Macabre sending Elesh Norn and Sphinx to oblivion and giving him a 2/2 chumpblocker. In the end, he finally succumbed to Angel of Despair.

Hi Trailbreaker,

Daniel here :laugh:

You forgot to mention that, during our Game 2, I DID eventually play Chain of Vapor during your second turn, responding to the trigger of Angel of Despair's ability. Good call on saving your FoW, as that eventually paid-off during the next turn, countering my Chain of Vapor.

Congrats again on the finish!

Cheers,
jares

[MirrorMask]

So how is the deck doing this days? I haven't played in quite some time. What about the match ups and stuff?

[csy]

the meta seems ok still for it, it just isn't getting a lot of traction.

[MirrorMask]

What about the new grave hate : Grafdigger's Cage? Does it hurt us?

[rxavage]

What about the new grave hate : Grafdigger's Cage? Does it hurt us?

I have yet to have an issue against it and would rather see cage than crypt, relic, or leyline since I can fill my gy and sculpt my hand while waiting for a bounce spell.

[nodahero]

How is the UW stoneblade matchup? Any tips/tricks to watch out for and to do?

[csy]

stoneblade is pretty even in my opinion. Game one is the easiest game though. It only goes downhill from there. My rules of thumb vs UW and Maverick are never reanimate anything unprotected, always watch for them to get tapped out. No white mana means draw 7 typically. Inkwell hitting the board is as good as your board presence is going to get vs blade. VS maverick if I can line up a Jin first for at least 1 draw 7 I go for it, after that I go for a protected sphinx, or if I have no protection I go for empyrial to bide my time. But empyrial has never won be a game vs maverick. She is more or less a stall tactic to get your hand ready for a game ender.

I have yet to see grafdiggers cage brought in against me, and I've been hoping it would be the go to hate.

[Final Fortune]

Isn't it standard for you guys to play both Elesh Norn and Blazing Archon MD?

[jcsy]

i thought recently elesh norn got the nod ahead of blazing archon slightly

archon's most difference in games were mostly up against stopping emrakul and friends

[PirateKing]

My current suite of MD creatures are:
1 - Empyrial Archangel
1 - Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 - Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 - Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 - Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 - Blazing Archon

SB creatures are:
1 - Inkwell Leviathan
1 - Angel of Despair
1 - Sundering Titan

I've been thinking about switching Inky with Empyrial as I sense my local meta slowly shifting, but it is too slow moving to say for sure, so this i show it stands currently.

[rxavage]

I'm really considering changing my main creature line up to 2 Jin, 2 Sphinx, 2 Iona, 1 Epmyrial, 1 elesh, 1 AoD and siding 1 Inkwell, 1 Sheoldred, and 1 Massacre Wurm. Also I'm going to be working on not punting as many matches like an idiot.

[Trailbreaker]

IMO, I don't like Blazing Archon in MD, especially if the meta game has lots of zoo, mavs, gobs, and dredge. It doesn't solve aggro problems and can be easily removed by STP/PTE while Elesh Norn is a nice sweeper and buffs your other biggies. :)

[PirateKing]

I've always liked Sheoldred, more for the forced sac, with the reanimation as a happy bonus as I hardly get more than one creature in my graveyard at a time, and if my opponent is letting me sit multiple turns with a reanimation target out, then I need to have won. As much as I want him, I think a lot of consensus says he is too slow.

As for Massacre Wurm, what sort of match-up would he be sided in? What role would he offer that Elesh Norn would not? Countertop Thopters and Dredge put a lot of creatures in their yard, and against TES this would be a win, but no more than a Echoing Truth.

[rxavage]

I thought Massacre Wurm would work well with Elesh Norn as a nice second or third reanimation target.Wurm has the benefit of not being legendary hence immune to karakas and the 2 damage is not insignificant.

[TheXile]

IMO, I don't like Blazing Archon in MD, especially if the meta game has lots of zoo, mavs, gobs, and dredge. It doesn't solve aggro problems and can be easily removed by STP/PTE while Elesh Norn is a nice sweeper and buffs your other biggies. :)

Agreed 100% Blazing Archon's really only good against Show and Tell decks because they often don't play any outs to it. It's also good against Goblins, but for the most part most decks play removal to get rid of it easily. I'm curious about the Empyrial Archangel (I've taken her out completely). How often does she actually come in Handy. I also run Terastadon instead of Angel of Despair (since it allows you to create an instant army OR destroy a troublesome enchantment/artifact/etc). I believe my Re-Animation Package is currently:
3x Gin Gitaxis
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
1x Terrestadon

I also had it brought to my attention that for the most part...everything you want to Thoughtsieze you can typically hit with Duress (since Life is a rather important resource in this matchup thanks to Re-animate). I'm contemplating upping my Duress count and removing Thoughtsieze. The only target I can see Thoughtsieze hitting that Duress wouldn't is KoTR (to stop them from fetching Karakas), Scavenging Ooze, or Faerie Macabre. What are your thoughts?

[rxavage]

I prefer thoughtseize over duress for the simple fact that you can use it to target yourself and discard a creature. Duress was in most sb because it was being sided in as anti-hate. Thoughtseize has won me a few games by enabling me to dump that top-decked fatty into my gy and reanimating it.

[PirateKing]

I find Empyrial Archangel wins races against all the mid speed aggro decks that have a hard time mustering 8 damage in a single hit. If they run goyf as aggro and StP as removal you fair pretty well. Even if I lose the angel, it bought me enough time to have ready another creature like Ink or Sphinx to win.

Against hard aggro that looks to beat you to death 10 damage at a time, not so great, but a lot of decks that split their creatures with control or tempo or combo, it finds a happy home there.

[csy]

I love archangel if I feel that my jin won't stick as first option vs maverick or UW blade. I keep angel in the MD because of how much show and tell I've seen. Her in hand smacking a spaghetti monster is always great.

[PirateKing]

I am looking for some thoughts on the card draw/card manipulation suite people use.

A list of common examples are
Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/brainstorm)
Ponder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/ponder)
Careful Study (http://deckbox.org/mtg/careful study)
Hapless Researcher (http://deckbox.org/mtg/hapless researcher)
Lim-Dûl's Vault (http://deckbox.org/mtg/lim-dûl's vault)
Intuition (http://deckbox.org/mtg/intuition)
Gifts Ungiven (http://deckbox.org/mtg/gifts ungiven)
Fact or Fiction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/fact or fiction)
Deep Analysis (http://deckbox.org/mtg/deep analysis)

Each have their benefits and shortcomings, and I was wondering what people use and why.

My current set up is:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Careful Study

I would like to include some Lim-Dûl's Vaults as nothing quite digs deeper, but it doesn't draw the card.

And then a lot of you run Hapless Researcher over Careful Study, and I would like to hear the motivations behind that decision.

Thanks.

[xfxf]

Hey guys,

I saw a Reanimator player with Faithless Looting and also heard that a UBr list recently won a tournament with 100<players<200 is Spain or somewhere in the Europe. I can't find anything about it on the net. Have you started splashing red for it yet?

[rxavage]

Hey guys,

I saw a Reanimator player with Faithless Looting and also heard that a UBr list recently won a tournament with 100<players<200 is Spain or somewhere in the Europe. I can't find anything about it on the net. Have you started splashing red for it yet?

I'm seriously thinking of splashing red for it and test out gamble along with it. I just need to decide if acquiring the set of gamble is worth the money.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Is Reanimator really t1 anymore? I hardly ever read about it winning a large tournament (with an exception of the B/U/R going to number 1 in an italian tourny), and not a single of the "pros" ever seem to choose Reanimator as their deck of choice. It did really poorly at GP Indy too.

[rxavage]

Is Reanimator really t1 anymore? I hardly ever read about it winning a large tournament (with an exception of the B/U/R going to number 1 in an italian tourny), and not a single of the "pros" ever seem to choose Reanimator as their deck of choice. It did really poorly at GP Indy too.


Reanimator was #4 in tiered decks on thecounsil til AnT surpassed it last week, and has 8 decks placing in march so far. IMO, reanimator is still a decent choice and always has the potential to win... Reanimator has become my pet deck and I would really like to see it taking tourneys down weekly again. Maybe a new game ending fatty or something will give a boost to the deck in the near future.

[xfxf]

Is Reanimator really t1 anymore? I hardly ever read about it winning a large tournament (with an exception of the B/U/R going to number 1 in an italian tourny), and not a single of the "pros" ever seem to choose Reanimator as their deck of choice. It did really poorly at GP Indy too.

Do you have the decklist or a link to the tournament results, I can't find anything about it currently.

[rxavage]

This is the link [link]http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7894&iddeck=57488[,/link] to the UBr deck, its placed 3rd.

[lordofthepit]

No, it was very underplayed during the Mental Misstep era (great matchups against Hive Mind and NO RUG, plus pretty good against Stoneblade), but it has bad matchups now against Maverick and RUG Delver. The Stoneblade matchup has turned south now that Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction is a real thing. Essentially, it has gone from favorable against the three most played decks to unfavorable.

One great thing in Reanimator's favor is that it beats up on all other combo decks, but RUG Delver can do the same, plus beat Reanimator.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Do you have the decklist or a link to the tournament results, I can't find anything about it currently.
Well, I can point to any specific lists. I've just read as many tournament reports as possible both here and on other sites, as well other coverage. I can't remember reading anything about reanimator.

I think more than getting a new fattie, Reanimator needs a better way to combat the hate.

[Vicar in a tutu]

No, it was very underplayed during the Mental Misstep era (great matchups against Hive Mind and NO RUG, plus pretty good against Stoneblade), but it has bad matchups now against Maverick and RUG Delver. The Stoneblade matchup has turned south now that Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction is a real thing. Essentially, it has gone from favorable against the three most played decks to unfavorable.

One great thing in Reanimator's favor is that it beats up on all other combo decks, but RUG Delver can do the same, plus beat Reanimator.

Yeah, Snapcaster + surgical extraction really is a killer.

[Squirrel]

I tried Reanimator last week at my local Event in Germany. It's impossible to play here, my result was 2-4 i won against Explorer Rock (Nic Fit) an UG Show and Tell Eureka,
lost against Maverick, Canadian, Canadian and Team America.

If played two tournaments with Reanimator this year and i have the feeling that i often fight and uphill battle and have not enough luck and skill to win.

In the two tournaments i went 1-3 and 2-4, i lost against a canadian having 4 force game1 and leyline in his opening game 2,

I lost against aluren by beat down with Imperial Recruiter and Taven'S Familiar and while i do not find a disard outlet and drawing no discard outtle /entomb after my first got countered over like 20 turn in the end.

I thoughtseized against Maverick G2 and his hand was: Green Sun's Zenith, Swords to Plowshares,Karakas, another land, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, random card..

I play against ubg landstill:
first game i win easily,
second he has leyline i bounce it eot entomb and reanimate with force backup, he has extirpate..
third game he mulls to 4 puts leyline into play, i mull to have show and tell and 3 lands in hand+ creature
he play mishra go, i land, go, he island go,
me land, go he end of turn snapcaster mage , mishra, beat me for five go,
i go for show and tell: force pitch force,
i don't draw anything,he beats me down with his.

You can say shit happens, and im not the most skill intensive player, but i don't think i will play this deck the next time..

[bruizar]

I've never really liked reanimator's consistency. It just has problems against interactive decks. Reanimator is too much of a glass cannon with too many non-interactive cards. You basically need to meet these conditions to have any form of success: Discard+bomb+protection+reanimate. Show and Tell is clearly better because it decreases the number of cards you have to sculpt. Reanimator is basically worst than Sneak & Show for the simple fact that it utilizes the graveyard. If you still want to reanimate big dudes, I'd build an entirely new control list with 4xIntuition + an Unburial Rites package/Gigapede/Iona or Elesh-Norn. I tried this in an explorer type deck which ramps fast and it was promising. You keep all the advantages of a non-combo deck and you keep a combo finish.

That said, the graveyard is the most fragile place in magic. Another cheap way to get a splashy dude in play is through Stronghold Gambit, which is basically a Show and Tell for 1R. You'd need to rely heavily on Hymn to Tourach's, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and Cabal Therapy's, Gitaxian Probe, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, but it could work. It would be a variation to Sneak & Show, replacing Sneak Attack for a 1R SNT. This would give you the speed of a Reanimator deck without the cost of graveyard dependency. Also, your opponent would hold back creatures in fear of Stronghold Gambit, which means that creature isn't trying to race you. One techy play is to play Stronghold Gambit revealing Snapcaster Mage, your opponent will try to reveal a creature card is he has it. You have a good chance that Snapcaster Mage will be cheaper or just as cheap as his creature, so your Snapcaster will come into play. If he didn't reveal a creature, you can give Stronghold Gambit flashback and cast it again revealing Emrakul. :D If he revealed a 2 CC creature, this means you have a good chance that he doesn't have any more creatures in his hand. This way you can see if the coast is clear before going off if you don't have discard, or go off twice in the same turn. Also, against High Tide and ANT you essentially have a bye because you can be faster and have discard to mess up the combo--hand-sculpting.

[Clark Kant]

Stronghold Gambit + Show and Tell + Sneak Attack sound amazing together in a deck built around them.

[zzzzax]

I recently decided to play reanimator. The list I decided on was my own build:

3 Jin-Gitaxias
1 Iona
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Terrastadon
1 Inkwell
1 Elesh norn
(8)

4 Force
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
(35)


4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
(17)

SB:
2 Show and Tell
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Blazing Archon
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction


I've played this exact list for 3 different local events to an overall record of 12-2. Losing to dredge in the finals of one event and to zoo with triple crypt in the semi's of another. The local metagame is a good representative of the SCG open meta, with several RUG, Stoneblade, TES, Dredge, Maverick lists as well as an imperial painter, show and tell, Enchantress, Merfolk, Gobos, elves, etc.

From my limited experience with the deck thoughtseize is by far been the best performer overall, followed closely by daze. Post board echoing truth and CoV have only won me 2 games... Show and tell seems to be a better board choice locally. I am going to be tooling with a 75 that has 4 show and tell in it, most likely cutting the Pithing needle, and some number of echoing truths and CoV. I also would like to up the thoughtsieze count in the main.

I tend to experiment with my sideboard plans depending on what has been working for me on that day. But typically I win game one...I then board out dazes, some number of reanimate spells and bring in the show and tells, thoughtseizes, and bounce spells. If there is a game 3 I bring the dazes back in and board out/in the correct hate against their grave hate. If they are playing non leyline hate I tend to board out all bounce spells, up my thoughtsiezes to 4 and board in 3 spell pierce. Force them to blow a crypt or relic on a jin or a fatty that isnt useful at the time, and proceed to iona, elesh lock them on the following turn with some permission i.e. thoughtseize, or counter back up.

[Dzra]

I like the idea of splashing Red for Faithless Looting a lot. I can definitely see dropping Ponder for it; however, I can't even imagine dropping Brainstorm like that Italian list.

Also, why doesn't Platinum Emperion see play? It seems much better against decks like Burn and Delver than Blazing Archon. It's also another solid creature for Tendrils and Belcher. The only downside I see is that it gets hit by Pridemage, but I guess that might be enough to cut it? Maybe Sphinx of the Steel Wind is just better than either.

[paeng4983]

1st timer user, used this deck yesterday in a small legacy tournament. And here's what I can still recall:

RD1 gobs win
won my 1st game via turn two or three, was it, reanimating Sphinx of the Steel Wind. For my 2nd win, inkwell. :-)

RD2 bant lost
Lost due to no reanimate came to my aid despite of several cantrips.
Lost again, I have show and tell at hand and i did not drew any creatures.

RD3 bgw rock lost
I gave the win. He's my teammate and I told him that he has better chances of getting to a 4-1 than me. its my 1st time with this deck and for sure, i will have misplays later on. I know how to beat this deck but me behind the wheels, uhmm noob level.

RD4 rug win
I rode Iona angel naming RED. From there, he never recovered.
for my 2nd win, I decided to bin and reanimate empyrial angel and to give more pressure, I added elesh norn to the party to secure my position for a 2-1 win-loss card.

RD5 W_stax
Iona na for both game, naming W, gave me the win.

:-)


Careful study is enough. Its blue, you can pitch it for FOW. and it does not screw you on your mana. Unlike faithless, as I see it, there might be a time that you'll need B and you have a UR land on your table.

:cool:

[PirateKing]

Also, why doesn't Platinum Emperion see play?

PROS:
a) Stops us from losing the game in a few matchups.
b) Lets us Reanimate without life loss.

CONS:
a) Doesn't really help us win the game much, the body isn't much to write home about.
b) No evasion gets it killed a number of ways.
c) Not being able to pay life means no Force of Will or Lim-Dul's Vault.

I find it worked best in select meta's or when I wanted a 1-2 creature blowout, but in general, I need to run the game under the assumption that with the disruption and removal my opponent is running, I'm good for only one creature, and so it needs to be all the creature I need. Jin-Giataxis, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Inkwell Leviathan all step up, and Platinum Emperion always came up short when it came time.

But that's not to say you shouldn't try. Some very successful builds run it, give it a try and let us know.

[TerribleTim68]

...Also, why doesn't Platinum Emperion see play? It seems much better against decks like Burn and Delver than Blazing Archon. It's also another solid creature for Tendrils and Belcher. ...
...I find it worked best in select meta's or when I wanted a 1-2 creature blowout, but in general, I need to run the game under the assumption that with the disruption and removal my opponent is running, I'm good for only one creature, and so it needs to be all the creature I need. Jin-Giataxis, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Inkwell Leviathan all step up, and Platinum Emperion always came up short when it came time.

But that's not to say you shouldn't try. Some very successful builds run it, give it a try and let us know.

I plan to run 1 SB and was thinking the only time I would really side it in would be against aggressive burn or something like TES. But even then, it was going to be the "win-more" card I try to reanimate second, not the "go to" guy.

[The Big Ragu]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oSNwW6Jcui0/T3pC8BZapYI/AAAAAAAAOxc/hcsT0sA9bGQ/s1600/Avacyn+-+Angel+of+Hope.jpg

Thoughts???

[Aggro_zombies]

What an enormously obnoxious EDH card.

As for Legacy, it doesn't stack up favorably against StP, Path, or Karakas.

[Dzra]

Disappointing. It might have been playable if it read Shroud instead of Indestructible, but it doesn't really affect the gamestate when it enters the battlefield and it loves to go plowing.

On a different note, has anyone considered replacing the Animate Dead and maybe a Ponder with Personal Tutor? This gives you more options to find the other half of the combo (Careful Study or Reanimate). It also makes SBed Show and Tell even more appealing.

[JDK]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oSNwW6Jcui0/T3pC8BZapYI/AAAAAAAAOxc/hcsT0sA9bGQ/s1600/Avacyn+-+Angel+of+Hope.jpg

Thoughts???

No. Please stop considering bad cards.

Sword, Path, Karakas, Maze...this card has so many openings...

[PirateKing]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oSNwW6Jcui0/T3pC8BZapYI/AAAAAAAAOxc/hcsT0sA9bGQ/s1600/Avacyn+-+Angel+of+Hope.jpg

Thoughts???

How often do you find your game losses through lethal damage and destroy effects?
Only thing I can think of is Maelstrom Pulse, and perhaps Wasteland, but I don't think I've ever contributed a loss to getting Wasteland'd.

As others have said, walking a creature into Swords to Plowshares, Knight of the Reliquary into Karakas, or worst ever playing Show and Tell putting down a Sphinx of the Steel Wind and they put down an Oblivion Ring.

Short answer, indestructible closes very little gaps in our overall weaknesses.

If this was shroud or hexproof on the other hand, I'm hard pressed to see how we wouldn't be top deck for ages. Maybe see more Wrath of God's to take out our 1 creature.

[Justin]

Yeah, the new angel doesn't make the cut in today's Reanimator. I think that shows the power creep of huge reanimate targets. Five years ago, an 8/8 flying, vigilant indestructible would have been great (a faster clock than Akroma by a turn). So many great big creatures have been printed since then.

[paeng4983]

the angel is a Stax material, not reanimator material.

[TheXile]

the angel is a Stax material, not reanimator material.

She is not stax material either..she's new player and angel collector material, that is all.

[csy]

She sucks. But the latest angel is at least a potential sideboard candidate.

[JDK]

She sucks. But the latest angel is at least a potential sideboard candidate.
Against what? Pox and BUG? Iona does a better job by cutting off black.

[Tenbin]

Against what? Pox and BUG? Iona does a better job by cutting off black.

I hear the ability is okay against Emrakul and friends as well...

[csy]

Ding. Some ones thinking about the meta.

[JDK]

I hear the ability is okay against Emrakul and friends as well...
Blazing Archon is calling.

There is no place in Reanimator for this card (unless there's a shift in the meta). I know, we all want to see some neat new fatties to abuse for our deck. It's the same in other decks: Everyone wants to try new cards and possibly find a leap to the next level.

BUT: All the other creatures already cover the area where the angel is good for, plus more.

[Tenbin]

Blazing Archon is calling.

There is no place in Reanimator for this card (unless there's a shift in the meta). I know, we all want to see some neat new fatties to abuse for our deck. It's the same in other decks: Everyone wants to try new cards and possibly find a leap to the next level.

BUT: All the other creatures already cover the area where the angel is good for, plus more.

Blazing Archon is good and all against elves but Sneak & Tell would board in bounce against reanimator and that deck also plays intuition to find it. The angel cannot be bounced.

I will however concede that Archon has broader applications as it stops Zoo etc as well.

You may think that the card is bad, but I find the attitude where you say it's bad. period. is a bit counter-productive. I personally believe that there's no harm in a bit of discussion regarding new cards, the opposite actually.

The new angel is good against Pox, Emrakul and some other decks. If a meta does not have Zoo or Merfolk I might actually be inclined to play the angel instead of Archon.

But again, I do see your point.

[JDK]

I never said it was bad. I said there are better choices in the current metagame.

btw Intuition on bounce is unlikely, given that most Sneak Attack decks play 0-2 bounce spells in the sideboard. They do however play more counters than Reanimator does, which is irrelevant for the choice between the Angel and Archon.

[Tenbin]

I never said it was bad. I said there are better choices in the current metagame.

btw Intuition on bounce is unlikely, given that most Sneak Attack decks play 0-2 bounce spells in the sideboard. They do however play more counters than Reanimator does, which is irrelevant for the choice between the Angel and Archon.

That may be so, and probably is as well :)

Regarding the Sneak Attack decks: I might be biased to my own personal feelings on how to build that deck (obviously); I have my board in 3's in order to be able to use intuition to find them as I feel that's the most consistent way. However, this is the Reanimator thread so that is neither here nor there.

The Angel also has a rather small body; giving Iona the edge there as well in terms of clock. (no edge to Archon there though)

[zmattk]

I really like Sigarda not just for BUG and Pox but for Maverick and Stoneblade as well. We are really looking for another shroud-like creature for this deck and I personally think this is one of our better choices. While Archangel and Inkwell are perfectly fine for the Stoneblade matchup, both seem to be lacking against Maverick. The problem we have against Maverick decks is that they not only have removal and gy hate in the main deck, but they also have ways to stop us once we get a creature out. Archangel is lackluster because they can just swarm us and kill her in one blow and stabilizing after that is rough. Inkwell obviously isn't the best choice against a deck without islands. The new angel cannot be StP'd, Karakas'd, or Maze of Ith'd. It is also great against any decks that use edict effects. Sure she has a small body, but Sphinx is also a 4 turn clock and her low mana cost is not terrible when Reanimating.

On a side note, I would not bank on her against Emrakul because last time I checked we have a hard time stopping a 15/15 body regardless of what we do or do not have to sacrifice in the process.

[JDK]

The difference between her and Sphinx is, that Sphinx just wins games by getting reanimated. Canadian can still race against Sigarda, but not against Sphinx.

I wouldn't want to cut any card for her. Not because she is bad, but because I don't get any additional value out of her.

[Snap_Keep]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/kxnlgrvj2f_en.jpg

This actually seems like something to discuss.

It's biggest flaw is it dies to removal. That may be it's only drawback. It can function as a Jin-Gitaxias and still beat down on a 3 turn clock. The lifelink is also great against aggro and burn. It seems like a hybrid of Jin with a Sphinx (the lifegain)... great against control and very strong against aggro because of it's fast clock and lifelink.

[Darksteel]

Upon first glance:

+ You take 2 less damage when you use Reanimate on it, compared to Jin-Gitaxias
+ You can draw 7 in response to removal
+ The drawing is controlled, so you don't have to worry about decking yourself, as you do with Jin-Gitaxias
+ The lifelink helps against aggressive decks, as mentioned
+ 7/7 means a 3 turn clock as opposed to Jin-Gitaxias's 4 turn clock, as mentioned

- Still vulnerable to Swords/Path/Karakas (but can be somewhat mitigated by being able to draw in response)
- Can't be exiled to Force of Will (What extra Jin's are often used for)
- Doesn't Mind Twist the opponent as Jin-Gitaxias does (said ability is often what leads to most concessions, in my experience)
- Not as good with Reanimate (Though quite nice with Animate Dead/Exhume)

I think in a 3 Jin build, I might drop one Jin for one Griselbrand.

[Stall_19]

- Doesn't Mind Twist the opponent as Jin-Gitaxias does (said ability is often what leads to most concessions, in my experience)


I understand the mind twist is just game over for the opponent but my question is, if Griselbrand survives the other players turn, which Jin would have to do for the mind twist to activate, how often can you lose? Getting to attack with a 7/7 flying lifelinker which means 7 more cards, if you so desire. It's extremely hard to imagine the other player winning in that position.

[Darksteel]

I agree, having a 7/7 lifelinker is certainly favorable, especially if you can draw a lot of countermagic off the first 7 with his ability. However, the opponent being able to keep their entire hand can be a problem, sometimes.

With Jin, you put them in top-deck mode for the rest of the game, while you keep drawing 8 cards a turn. You'll generally always have countermagic for the one spell they play a turn, at that rate. And if you manage to get another reanimated fatty onto the battlefield, then they have to rip multiple answers, which is much harder when Jin-Gitaxias is in play.

I'm not denying that "Grizz-Gitaxias" puts you in a favorable position, it's just that I think Jin puts you in a better one, generally. Of course, I'll definitely try the demon though.

[Dzra]

At least at first glance, it seems much better than Jin. It's a 7/7 body. It has evasion. It Lifelinks. It kills in 3 turns. It outraces a Batterskull.

You can draw cards at instant speed whenever you need them, meaning the real kicker is that you don't have to spend the 7 life if you don't have to. You can basically just sit back and force them to draw the answer... and if they do, draw until you can stop it.

Another application of this is being guaranteed cards regardless. How often do you see /Reanimate Jin Gitaxias and have it Swords before your end step only to be back where you started? Griselbrand basically guarantees that you will draw at least 7 and likely it will be able to protect itself.

[lyracian]

I think in a 3 Jin build, I might drop one Jin for one Griselbrand.That is my thought too. Sometimes I have summoned Jin but still been unable to attack due to the creature(s) my opponent has out. Flying, extra Toughness and lifelink helps get around that.

[JDK]

The reason why Jin is so good is that he makes CA AND puts the opponent into topdeck-mode. Without the latter the chance of them finding an out is significantly higher and he wouldn't see that much play. Being able to pitch him for a Force is also something that happens a lot!

We will see, if Giselbrand is the real deal. I'd like to play a demon so badly, but I am not sure if he can compete with Jin.

[zmattk]

Going back to Sigarda, I think I would replace Empyrial for her. Empyrial has the same clock and proves to be lackluster against decks like Maverick and BUG where Maverick can overrun her and BUG has edict effects to surpass shroud. Sigarda is still good in the matchups where Archangel was good but picks up where Empyrial lacked. The fact we have a creature that has evasion and cannot be hit by StP, Maze of Ith, and Karakas is pretty good in my opinion.

I can see Gristelbrand along side Jin as maybe a one of. I really like the evasion + lifelink. We could use him as anitaggro instead of replacing Jin. The ability to draw 7 is just an extra ability to me. An amazing extra ability.

[PirateKing]

Thoughts on this?
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg
With Top, Brainstorm, Jace all able to tilt the odds of getting these in on top of your library during draw, it isn't far fetched to imagine these as dependable consistent forces in a deck.
So far only Time Walk, a 5 damage spell for :r: and a Condemn effect for :w:, both at uncommon. The stage is set for at least an uncommon cycle and a mythic cycle, potentially with power-9 level cards at mythic.
Think this will be something to earn a place in Reanimator, or at least guaranteed, a threat to play against?

[JDK]

We don't play Jace. We don't play top. Why should we play a Miracle card that doesn't do as much as the other cards we are playing? Just for the small chance to hit twice? This card is nuts, but not in this deck.

Please don't turn this thread into a general Avacyn Restored discussion...

[Final Fortune]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/kxnlgrvj2f_en.jpg

This actually seems like something to discuss.

It's biggest flaw is it dies to removal. That may be it's only drawback. It can function as a Jin-Gitaxias and still beat down on a 3 turn clock. The lifelink is also great against aggro and burn. It seems like a hybrid of Jin with a Sphinx (the lifegain)... great against control and very strong against aggro because of it's fast clock and lifelink.

It'd be interesting to rebuild those Magus of the Jar/Reanimator decks with a better draw engine and auxillery threat in the form of a 7/7 Flying, Life Link. It's kind of insane considering those animation spells that give you haste for a turn and sacrifice the creature EOT gives you like 21 cards off this guy. It also makes Burning Wish a really attractive tutor for this deck, because you can basically draw 14 cards and Tendrils for the win if you commit to an acceleration package.

I really don't think Jin has a place in this deck anymore after this guy, he dodges STP and still draws cards which makes him more resilient, and I'm pretty sure a 7/7 flying, lifelink can give Mind Twist a run for its money in terms of shit the opponent doesn't want to have to deal with.

[wcm8]

Yeah, pretty sure I would just drop Jin entirely in favor of Griselbrand. The demon resolving is pretty much guaranteed to win the game, whereas Jin offers your opponent a small window of opportunity to pull out of the situation. Jin also often -required- you to follow up with another creature to win if they had a Goyf/Batterskull/etc, whereas this guy is also able to finish an opponent off by himself.

[theBloody]

I don't like demon much. If you reanimate him and fail to find protection you will be in worse position than with jin.

reanimate + ability + fetch = -8 -7 -1 = 4 life + full opponent hand

He is situational. It will suprise me if he replace jin in all copies.

[JDK]

If you cannot connect with Jin (Karakas, Maze), you can easily reanimate another creature to get the beats done (due to the cardadvantage and lack of answers by the opponent).
If you cannot connect with Giselbrand, you are in a worse position.

Therefor I don't think Jin will be dropped completely in favor of the Demon.

[Vicar in a tutu]

But is Griselbrand enough to make Reanimator viable again? Game 1 is already very good for us, I'm thinking after sideboard. How awesome would it be if there was a card (some sort of permanent) that did something like "cards in your graveyard cannot be targeted by an opponent's spells or effects". That would get rid of Surgical Extraction, Purify the Grave, Scavenging Ooze.

[JDK]

Reanimator is still viable (mind the DTB/DTW status).

Despite that, Giselbrand doesn't change the position of the deck against the hate it is facing.

[HokusSchmokus]

But is Griselbrand enough to make Reanimator viable again? Game 1 is already very good for us, I'm thinking after sideboard. How awesome would it be if there was a card (some sort of permanent) that did something like "cards in your graveyard cannot be targeted by an opponent's spells or effects". That would get rid of Surgical Extraction, Purify the Grave, Scavenging Ooze.

Ground Seal

[JDK]

Ground Seal

I am unsure if you cannot read or don't know which deck this thread is about. :eyebrow:

[baghdadbob]

I think he is attempting to communicate that reanimator should run ground seal game two, without actually saying anything. I think this new black demon can definitely be played as a 1 of at least in reanimator. That life link is huge. Drawing seven cards at instant speed is also the nuts.

[Darksteel]

Ground Seal + Exhume is a possibility, though it seems pretty bad since it shuts off your other reanimation cards.

[baghdadbob]

Oh trust me, i'm not suggesting ground seal. :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

If you cannot connect with Jin (Karakas, Maze), you can easily reanimate another creature to get the beats done (due to the cardadvantage and lack of answers by the opponent).
If you cannot connect with Giselbrand, you are in a worse position.

Therefor I don't think Jin will be dropped completely in favor of the Demon.

Karakas/Maze is less of a consideration than STP, in STP's case we will draw 7 cards for 0 life loss with Griselbrand which is a lot better than drawing 0 cards for +5 life with Jin Gitaxis.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Reanimator is still viable (mind the DTB/DTW status).

Despite that, Giselbrand doesn't change the position of the deck against the hate it is facing.[/QUOTE]

Although he doesn't do anything about the graveyard hate, Griselbrand does make some cards that are good against us slightly less relevant (Karakas, Swords to Plowshares).

Reanimator might be on the list of DTB, but it hardly wins any major tournaments these days, does it? (Sincere question, not sarcasm, at least I haven't noticed any major wins.) Imagine a player like LSV, Caleb Durward, Paulo Vito etc. going to a major legacy tournament (most likely a grand prix). Do you see any of them thinking: "Ah yes, legacy, I need to bring the strongest deck possible because I want to win (and because I play for cash) - Sure, I'll bring Reanimator!". Just can't picture it. They will bring a variant of the Big Three: RUG Tempo, Maverick, UWx Stoneblade (maybe High Tide?).

I would have loved if Caleb Durward piloted his Nic Fit at GP Indy, but lo and behold, he chose RUG Tempo. They say legacy is a diverse format. Maybe it is, and I think a lot of it has to do with card availability and people having pet decks. (I'm one of those actually, I love Reanimator and Pox, mostly playing one of those decks instead of any of the big three.)

[lyracian]

Ground SealKind of the opposite of what Vicar in a tutu wanted. He wants a Hexproofed Graveyard not a Shrouded one. :tongue:

[JDK]

Karakas/Maze is less of a consideration than STP, in STP's case we will draw 7 cards for 0 life loss with Griselbrand which is a lot better than drawing 0 cards for +5 life with Jin Gitaxis.
Why are Karakas and Maze not to be taken into account? They both shut off the demon and can be tutored for with Knight.


Although he doesn't do anything about the graveyard hate, Griselbrand does make some cards that are good against us slightly less relevant (Karakas, Swords to Plowshares).
Karakas less relevant? What does Giselbrand do if he cannot connect? Nothing and you obviously won't reanimate a Jin into a Karakas, so you at least get to draw seven cards (unless there's an instant sword, where Giselbrand is indeed better).

Yes, the Demon is better against STP, but I still like Jin's ability against combo and control much more.


Reanimator might be on the list of DTB, but it hardly wins any major tournaments these days, does it? (Sincere question, not sarcasm, at least I haven't noticed any major wins.) Imagine a player like LSV, Caleb Durward, Paulo Vito etc. going to a major legacy tournament (most likely a grand prix). Do you see any of them thinking: "Ah yes, legacy, I need to bring the strongest deck possible because I want to win (and because I play for cash) - Sure, I'll bring Reanimator!". Just can't picture it. They will bring a variant of the Big Three: RUG Tempo, Maverick, UWx Stoneblade (maybe High Tide?).
Being a DTB is not about being the overall strongest deck, but about being popular and placing well in tournaments.

[Final Fortune]

I didn't say they shouldn't be taken into account, I said they're less of a consideration than Swords to Plowshares. A 3cc creature that has to tap to put an answer on the board and a 1cc instant aren't exactly comparable. I'd rather concentrate on worrying about STP than a 1xLegendary Land.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Why are Karakas and Maze not to be taken into account? They both shut off the demon and can be tutored for with Knight.


Karakas less relevant? What does Giselbrand do if he cannot connect? Nothing and you obviously won't reanimate a Jin into a Karakas, so you at least get to draw seven cards (unless there's an instant sword, where Giselbrand is indeed better).

Yes, the Demon is better against STP, but I still like Jin's ability against combo and control much more.

Yes, Karakas becomes less relevant in the sense that you get to draw 7 cards before the demon is bounced ("less relevant" obviously not meaning "irrelevant"). I don't think the question is whether to run 3 Gitaxias or 3 Griselbrand, Gitaxias rocks. I would (like another poster suggested) play 2 Gitaxias and 1 Griselbrand. Also in the case of Maze: I get to draw 7 cards and my creature still stays on the battlefield with lifelink (in case anyone tries to attack and they don't have mother of runes). That's fine by me, I can use some of the cards drawn to do other cool stuff.

[Dzra]

Griselbrand just gives you more options. Drawing seven at the end of your turn is always good. Being able to draw seven whenever you want (albeit at a price) is better. Sure the opponent gets to keep their hand, but against most decks, we are only concerned with a fairly narrow list of cards. Answer my Flying 7/7 Lifelinker in the next three turns through a multitude of counterspells that I can draw into at instant speed or die.

And as a sidenote... I do think Temporal Mastery deserves a 1-of slot in Reanimator builds using Personal Tutor.

[JDK]

Yes, Karakas becomes less relevant in the sense that you get to draw 7 cards before the demon is bounced ("less relevant" obviously not meaning "irrelevant"). I don't think the question is whether to run 3 Gitaxias or 3 Griselbrand, Gitaxias rocks. I would (like another poster suggested) play 2 Gitaxias and 1 Griselbrand. Also in the case of Maze: I get to draw 7 cards and my creature still stays on the battlefield with lifelink (in case anyone tries to attack and they don't have mother of runes). That's fine by me, I can use some of the cards drawn to do other cool stuff.

You can only draw seven if you can connect with the lifelink or didn't have to use reanimate on him. I'd like to see you drawing cards off Giselbrand when he gets bounced just to be finished by their creatures. Mother is a relevant part in that matchup and it counters Giselbrand as well (now give Mindcensor to the mix). He is just rendered useless by so many cards in the Maverick MU.

I will most likely try him out as well, but on the paper he doesn't look that convincing to me.

[csy]

I dont think personal tutor deserves a spot in reanimator, but I do think TM does deserve a 1-2 spot. personal tutoring for TM and saying, 'hehe, go', is just asking for thought scour, predict, jace, etc. BUT setting a TM with a ponder/brainstorm is a sneaky little turn the tables trick I could see working really well. with 4 BS and 3 ponder + jin/griss you'll have no shortness of ways to draw into it.

[JDK]

TM pretty much only makes sense in this deck if you have a creature out and need to finish the game fast by getting the beats in. Our manabase won't allow any neat tricks with it.

This and the already conditional Miracle mechanic combined aren't as good as "take an extra turn" sounds.

[TerribleTim68]

I'm still curious how we're going to know that is what they drew that turn. What keeps a guy from drawing a card, spending a couple seconds "flipping" cards in his hand the way we all do, then proclaiming that to be the card he drew? How do we know what he drew? :confused:

[whienot]

I'm still curious how we're going to know that is what they drew that turn. What keeps a guy from drawing a card, spending a couple seconds "flipping" cards in his hand the way we all do, then proclaiming that to be the card he drew? How do we know what he drew? :confused:

If the reveal isn't immediate, then they don't get to cast it for it's Miracle cost. The trigger would be missed.


Miracle XX: You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn

[Final Fortune]

You can only draw seven if you can connect with the lifelink or didn't have to use reanimate on him. I'd like to see you drawing cards off Giselbrand when he gets bounced just to be finished by their creatures. Mother is a relevant part in that matchup and it counters Giselbrand as well (now give Mindcensor to the mix). He is just rendered useless by so many cards in the Maverick MU.

I will most likely try him out as well, but on the paper he doesn't look that convincing to me.

Swords to Plowshares in a range of decks is more important than Karakas/Maze in Maverick, so far he's been the best reanimation target I've played with and Jix Gitaxis has taken a back seat as a 1x. It's really not hard to figure out how good he is after a few games, against a lot of decks you don't even need to use his ability to win because you just outrace their board position and only trigger the ability vs Swords to Plowshares.

Play more Animate Dead if you're killing yourself with Reanimate, which you shouldn't be.

Edit: Also being Black and not Blue is a big fucking deal vs. REBs post-board.

[PirateKing]

I'm still curious how we're going to know that is what they drew that turn. What keeps a guy from drawing a card, spending a couple seconds "flipping" cards in his hand the way we all do, then proclaiming that to be the card he drew? How do we know what he drew? :confused:

Judges are ruling it similar to a Sylvan Library trigger. The cards are drawn, but kept separate from your hand during the resolution to ensure you don't put any cards from your hand back on top of your library that weren't drawn off the triggered ability. Same thing with a Miracle card. You draw your card, see that it is a Miracle card, and that is the chance you have to play it. The moment the car physically enters the rest of your hand, then the trigger has been missed.

In Reanimator the use of TS is directly tied to the use of Brainstorm and to a lesser extent, Ponder and Jin/Griselbrand. The extra turn can be found quickly and primed with a BS for us to find at the beginning of our turn. The only question is how much gain do we net from an extra turn?

[catmint]

Can you explain me why Griselbrand is not way better than Jin?

I agree that it does not help to solve the problem against most of the existing hate.
The question is: how often do you currently not win after reanimating a creature? I do not play reanimator and have no idea obv., but I suppose most of the time you win, so in general a "better" dude won't help Renamiator as much as a better enabler.

Anyway: In which situation is it not better than Jin?

Against aggro/burn: Lifelink and the much better body make up for not shutting down the opponents hand size.

Big Advantage against the DTB RUG, Blade Control and Maverick:
Against STP/Redblast or other removal they might have: "Draw 7-14": Force it and/or win with the new cards...

Against combo: They keep their hand, but you can draw hate. Should not really matter.

[zmattk]

Can you explain me why Griselbrand is not way better than Jin?

I agree that it does not help to solve the problem against most of the existing hate.
The question is: how often do you currently not win after reanimating a creature? I do not play reanimator and have no idea obv., but I suppose most of the time you win, so in general a "better" dude won't help Renamiator as much as a better enabler.

Anyway: In which situation is it not better than Jin?

Against aggro/burn: Lifelink and the much better body make up for not shutting down the opponents hand size.

Big Advantage against the DTB RUG, Blade Control and Maverick:
Against STP/Redblast or other removal they might have: "Draw 7-14": Force it and/or win with the new cards...

Against combo: They keep their hand, but you can draw hate. Should not really matter.

Gristelbrand is not better than Jin because Jin makes your opponent discard their hand if he survives until the end of their next turn. You also have to pay 7 life to use Gristelbrand's ability. So if you are in a grindy game and you Thoghtseize, FoW, and fetch a few times then are forced to Reanimate him, you might not even get to draw at all. Also against RUG Delver, I would never feel safe paying 7 life in fear of Stifle. Most likely you will get to use his ability once a turn and that's if you are connecting with him each turn. Jin draws you 7 a turn no matter what.

Gristelbrand is only better when they have an immediate answer to your creature or just as a solid beater with lifelink. Jin is better in almost all other situations.

[DrHealex]

I think just replacing sphinx of the steel wind with grisselbrand and adding the anti-sac angel to the board and calling it a day is the way to go.

[JDK]

Gristelbrand is not better than Jin because Jin makes your opponent discard their hand if he survives until the end of their next turn. You also have to pay 7 life to use Gristelbrand's ability. So if you are in a grindy game and you Thoghtseize, FoW, and fetch a few times then are forced to Reanimate him, you might not even get to draw at all. Also against RUG Delver, I would never feel safe paying 7 life in fear of Stifle. Most likely you will get to use his ability once a turn and that's if you are connecting with him each turn. Jin draws you 7 a turn no matter what.

Gristelbrand is only better when they have an immediate answer to your creature or just as a solid beater with lifelink. Jin is better in almost all other situations.
This. Finally someone else putting thoughts into it and not going crazy about a big demon.


I think just replacing sphinx of the steel wind with grisselbrand and adding the anti-sac angel to the board and calling it a day is the way to go.
Sphinx is way better in red matchups like Burn, Goblins and Canadian Threshold (besides Iona on red, but she doesn't stop already lying threats).
Sigarda is only good if you face lots of Pox and BUG, so it's heavily depended on your meta.

[DrHealex]

This. Finally someone else putting thoughts into it and not going crazy about a big demon.


Sphinx is way better in red matchups like Burn, Goblins and Canadian Threshold (besides Iona on red, but she doesn't stop already lying threats).
Sigarda is only good if you face lots of Pox and BUG, so it's heavily depended on your meta.

Well, it is a sideboard. i have seen lilianas/innocent blood/diabolic edict in more decks than just those 2.

I think the margin between sphinx and grissel in those matchups is much slimer than you think.

[Final Fortune]

This. Finally someone else putting thoughts into it and not going crazy about a big demon.


Sphinx is way better in red matchups like Burn, Goblins and Canadian Threshold (besides Iona on red, but she doesn't stop already lying threats).
Sigarda is only good if you face lots of Pox and BUG, so it's heavily depended on your meta.

I call bull shit, seriously if you guys haven't put Griselbrand thru' the gauntlet in order to see how he performs first hand, then you're just basing your opinions off guess work and bad guess work at that. Jin, Gitaxis isn't good vs Maverick and a lot of other "aggro" decks out there, if you know how to play Griselbrand correctly you almost always bring the game home in comparison.

Stop concentrating on Reanimate and drawing 7 immediately, if you constantly misplay ofcourse Griselbrand is going to suck. Jin Gitaxis is only good when you can guarnatee you can resolve him, protect him and then resolve another threat after him, Griselbrand needs far less guarantees to secure an advantage.

[JDK]

Jin, Gitaxis isn't good vs Maverick and a lot of other "aggro" decks out there

Unfortunately we don't play other creatures. Too bad.

:rolleyes:

[catmint]

I agree with Fortune. Played the demon and its nuts...

Are there really a lot of games where you loose after drawing 7 with Jin? Do you feel like you need to reduce the opponent to 0 Hand cards to win?

STP/Redblast are the most common hate cards that the opponent can use in our turn too totally blow us out. Basically a 2 (or 3) for 1 that you cant really recover right? Now they only have swords and you go Response draw 7 (and maybe 7 more) and then either force og or gain your 7 life back.

Lifeloss does matter, but you do not have to use it immediately right! What can RUG do once the demon is out? Attack into it? block it? Remeber its a 7/7 Flying Lifelink. They have no attacks/no blocks.

What can the do when Jin is out? Redblast it or still attack with their army to try win before we reanimate more monsters in our next turn.

Using reanimate without having enough life to draw with the demon immediately is only an issue if
1) the opponent can burn you out before you can get the lifelink trigger
2) the opponent has STP and you cannot draw 7 in response.
I do not see where Jin gitaxias makes a big difference in those situations.

[JDK]

You seriously try to use the RUG matchup as an argument for Griselbrand?
Have you ever heard of Sphinx, Iona and Platinum Emperion? :eyebrow:

[catmint]

You seriously try to use the RUG matchup as an argument for Griselbrand?
Have you ever heard of Sphinx, Iona and Platinum Emperion? :eyebrow:

I am only mentioning it versus RUG because you said that you are afraid to use the ability because of stifle. Now that was why I explained you that your argument is not valid, since you do not have to draw 7 unless its safe since they do not have removal/attacks or blocks versus a 7/7 flying lifelink.

Of course I am not saying that the monsters you mentioned wouldnt be better. As I understand it in many matchups specific monsters are the best, but they can only be a 1of in the deck for entomb. Jin vs. Griselbrand fights for the 3-4 of that can be regularly discarded even without entomb for the "best" monster.

[Final Fortune]

You seriously try to use the RUG matchup as an argument for Griselbrand?
Have you ever heard of Sphinx, Iona and Platinum Emperion? :eyebrow:

Do you resolve Entomb every game? If you're playing 3xJin, Gitaxis and 4xCareful Study + other direct hand to graveyard outlets he's going to be the most common creature you have on the board. Having 7 cards in hand vs. an STP or a 7/7 Flying, Lifelink on the board vs. an opponent who has already played out his hand matters when you can't faceroll a match up.

[zmattk]

I call bull shit, seriously if you guys haven't put Griselbrand thru' the gauntlet in order to see how he performs first hand, then you're just basing your opinions off guess work and bad guess work at that. Jin, Gitaxis isn't good vs Maverick and a lot of other "aggro" decks out there, if you know how to play Griselbrand correctly you almost always bring the game home in comparison.

Stop concentrating on Reanimate and drawing 7 immediately, if you constantly misplay ofcourse Griselbrand is going to suck. Jin Gitaxis is only good when you can guarnatee you can resolve him, protect him and then resolve another threat after him, Griselbrand needs far less guarantees to secure an advantage.


Oh and you have done the appropiate amount of testing in what the last 2 days to make the claim he is 100% without a doubt better? I think not, none of has, and none of us will know until we see what happens to the meta to make appropriate changes. Right now we are all talking theory, and I was just simply stating that by the looks of it he will not be a Jin replacement, because his draw backs fall exactly where I pointed out. Sure he will be great when you don't have to reanimate him or use thoughtseize or fetches and never get atttacked, but there are the situations where just getting to draw 7 with Jin and make your opponent answer him or lose is still going to be phenomenal.

To be honest, I think Gisela is something we should be considering for aggro matchups. A 2 turn clock is amazing and can stop swarms from decks like Maverick, Goblins, Burn from killing us. It does suck she's weak to Maze of Ith and Karakas though.

[JDK]

I am only mentioning it versus RUG because you said that you are afraid to use the ability because of stifle. Now that was why I explained you that your argument is not valid, since you do not have to draw 7 unless its safe since they do not have removal/attacks or blocks versus a 7/7 flying lifelink.

Of course I am not saying that the monsters you mentioned wouldnt be better. As I understand it in many matchups specific monsters are the best, but they can only be a 1of in the deck for entomb. Jin vs. Griselbrand fights for the 3-4 of that can be regularly discarded even without entomb for the "best" monster.

Not valid? Stifle is played in other decks as well (e.g. Stiflenought and Team America) and if I cannot use his ability he is nowhere near the level of Jin-Gitaxias.

Of course, you don't have three "game winners" beside Jin in every matchup, but there is a fair amount of games where you do.


Do you resolve Entomb every game? If you're playing 3xJin, Gitaxis and 4xCareful Study + other direct hand to graveyard outlets he's going to be the most common creature you have on the board. Having 7 cards in hand vs. an STP or a 7/7 Flying, Lifelink on the board vs. an opponent who has already played out his hand matters when you can't faceroll a match up.

Played out his hand? You know you should be playing a fast combo deck, right? Try making use of Griselbrand against Maverick with a full board.

The Mind Twist ist huge (especially against Control and Combo). If you resolve a reanimate on Jin T2 (happens a lot) and he lives for one turn your chance to win is absurdly high, because it takes away land drops and outs and gives you a full hand plus free discard to get other creatures online (imagine playing against Spiral Tide, if he cannot bounce Jin before the first discard phase, he has already lost - if he cannot bounce Griselbrand he still has two turns to do so or just go into combo mode). Also: pitching Jin is something I often find myself doing.

I could imagine testing one Griselbrand, but I would never substitute Jin for him. However, I'd play him as a 1-of in Mono-B Reanimator.


To be honest, I think Gisela is something we should be considering for aggro matchups. A 2 turn clock is amazing and can stop swarms from decks like Maverick, Goblins, Burn from killing us. It does suck she's weak to Maze of Ith and Karakas though.
We already have really good creatures against Goblins and Burn (Iona, Sphinx, Empyrial Archangel, Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon).
I'd love to see a protected creature for the Maverick MU though. To be valuable despite the lack of protection requires a really strong ability to find it's way into Reanimator (see Jin). Being a two turn clock is amazing, but I am not sure if Gisela is fast enough for Maverick...I don't think so (Swords, Maze, Karakas, Mindcensors). I will have to test it first.

[Final Fortune]

Oh and you have done the appropiate amount of testing in what the last 2 days to make the claim he is 100% without a doubt better? I think not, none of has, and none of us will know until we see what happens to the meta to make appropriate changes. Right now we are all talking theory, and I was just simply stating that by the looks of it he will not be a Jin replacement, because his draw backs fall exactly where I pointed out. Sure he will be great when you don't have to reanimate him or use thoughtseize or fetches and never get atttacked, but there are the situations where just getting to draw 7 with Jin and make your opponent answer him or lose is still going to be phenomenal.

To be honest, I think Gisela is something we should be considering for aggro matchups. A 2 turn clock is amazing and can stop swarms from decks like Maverick, Goblins, Burn from killing us. It does suck she's weak to Maze of Ith and Karakas though.

Yes, I can run thru' 30 something games in an early afternoon to be pretty damn sure Griselbrand is the nut high, it gets obvious real quick.

[zmattk]

Yes, I can run thru' 30 something games in an early afternoon to be pretty damn sure Griselbrand is the nut high, it gets obvious real quick.

Yeah, 30 games is not even close to enough. First off let's assume you tested against a variety of decks: RUG, UW Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Maverick, some storm variant, and Zoo. So we're covering pretty much all the archtypes: control, combo, aggro, and midrange aggro control.

That's 5 games against each deck. Slightly over one match against each and you aren't even accounting for other popular decks like Burn, Affinity, Pox, BUG control/Team America, ect. And there's always the fact that you aren't even testing against decks that emerge from what Avacyn Restored brings to the format...

So in your 30 games how many times did you chose Gristelbrand as your reanimation target? I'm sure it wasn't 30 or else you should just play 4 Gristelbrand because he's just that good. Also how many times did you go for Gristelbrand and Jin would have also won you the game? Probably a decent amount of those times. So how many games can we assume you reanimated Gristelback against a relevant deck where he single handedly won you the game where nothing else would have sufficed? Probably 1 or 2 times. And let's not even get started about playing agaisnt GY hate...

With 5 games against each deck, you have not put yourself in enough situations to decide whether one card over a card that is functionally similar is better in the long run. Sure you can turn 2 Gristelbrand and win because he is a good card and if your opponent can't answer him then you are most likely going to win. But you haven't played enough with him against enough decks to make the claim he will be better than Jin in all circumstances and is the definite replacement for Jin.

There's a reason people like LSV and Kibler test their deck for WEEKS before taking it to an event like a PT or GP, it's because they need to know how each card will react in every situation against every deck. Sure this is Legacy and there are a lot more decks to account for to the point where it's nearly impossible to do so, but you're going to need more than 30 games to make any statistical relevance. You'll probably want about 30 matches...against at least 15 decks...

You said it's obvious that Gristelbrand is busted...well it's obvious that Jin Gitaxias is also busted.

[catmint]

Sure, there is not enough testing and data to be 100% sure. That's what is the fun right now... just speculating. Some will be wrong some will be right and who knows .. maybe the field will keep beeing divided in Jin vs. Griselbrand.

Imo Griselbrand will win by a fair margin for the reasons I already posted earlier. Mostly: always get value despite of removal.


Not valid? Stifle is played in other decks as well (e.g. Stiflenought and Team America) and if I cannot use his ability he is nowhere near the level of Jin-Gitaxias.


How exactly does any of these decks beat a 7/7 flying lifelink? Don't worry... you'll get to use the ability!

[Final Fortune]

It's not going to take you two weeks and being a 40 year old virgin to understand the differences between playing with Jin and playing with Griselbrand. I don't need to play dozens of games vs Tier 2 decks that Reanimator crushes by virture of being Reanimator in the first place, lol Pox, to test how well Griselbrand holds up vs. a gauntlet of representative decks for their respective archetypes post-board.

I just subbed Jin Gitaxis for Griselbrand, it was significantly better vs Zoo and RUG, marginally worse vs TES and High Tide, marginally better vs Stoneblade and Maverick and that's about all the matches I care about. I was also able to resolve Griselbrand and win faster than with Jin Gitaxis on numerous occassions because I could play him thru' STP, Path (and REB) without scooping.

[zmattk]

It's not going to take you two weeks and being a 40 year old virgin to understand the differences between playing with Jin and playing with Griselbrand. I don't need to play dozens of games vs Tier 2 decks that Reanimator crushes by virture of being Reanimator in the first place, lol Pox, to test how well Griselbrand holds up vs. a gauntlet of representative decks for their respective archetypes post-board.

I just subbed Jin Gitaxis for Griselbrand, it was significantly better vs Zoo and RUG, marginally worse vs TES and High Tide, marginally better vs Stoneblade and Maverick and that's about all the matches I care about. I was also able to resolve Griselbrand and win faster than with Jin Gitaxis on numerous occassions because I could play him thru' STP, Path (and REB) without scooping.

Lol Pox? Do you know what Pox does? Any deck with edicts is not an easy deck for us to beat. And the reason we need a good diversity of creatures is because tier 2 decks exist and it would suck losing to something you could have beat easily.

Against Zoo and RUG Sphinx is just as good as Gristelbrand it's because the body and lifelink is what matters here.

Against TES and High Tide Jin is exceptionally better because it forces them to combo off that turn. If not Jin, Iona does the job just as well.

Against Maverick you should probably go for Iona on white and Stoneblade should be any shroud creature.

Yes you don't always have the luxury of picking what creature you discard so in situations like this you have to look at what answers your opponent has and how we normally would deal with them.

Right now our biggest enemies are the tier 1 decks. Reanimator hasn't had much success recently because of the disruption we face, not the creatures we have. Going up against discard, counter spells, and gy removal extremely tough. If you really look carefully at what we are fighting against, you'll see that Gristelbrand doesn't add anything that we need to the deck because he doesn't correct the problems we face.

Karakas: Jin and Gristelbrand are both weak to this card. Gristelbrand might be slightly better here but if your opponent has it out already then I do not see why you're wasting resources and life to run it into death.

Maze of Ith: Both are weak to this too. Gristelbrand is worse here because you don't get to draw every turn because you don't get to connect every turn. Jin keeps fueling your hand to come up with a next play. Gristelbrand sits there and waits for you to die.

Swords to Plowshares: Both are weak to this card. Jin is better if he lasts until the end of your turn, Gristelbrand is better if they have an immediate answer. This is about a 50/50 here.

I agree that most people do not have the time to rigorously test to know whether this slot is worth it. Especially because the card was spoiled days ago. All of us have lives to live outside of Magic. But I asked you if you have properly tested it and knew without a doubt it was better and you said yes. My next point pointed out that your 30 games was not sufficient data to support your claim. Gristelbrand is going to be better some games than Jin, I cannot deny that, but I can say that I'm not so easily convinced he deserves to replace Jin all together. I think he needs more testing because both have their merits. The simple fact that Jin essentially ends the game if your opponent cannot answer him in 1 turn is a huge boost where Gristelbrand cannot always do this.

One thing is for sure. Neither of them are what we need to become a tier 1 deck again. We can change our deck to better fight against discard, counter spells, and gy hate, but the fact Maverick exists as a deck is really daunting right now. They have 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Scavenging Ooze, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary to find their lands, and Green Sun's Zenith to find their Knight or Ooze plus they have mana acceleration. All in game 1.

And @catmint, you just proved my point. This is all theory we are talking here. Even if Gristelbrand proves through testing he is better against this meta than Jin, it will almost be pointless because other decks will be getting new cards from Avacyn Restored as well. We need to take into account the optimized lists of all the decks including the ones that have yet to emerge, and that won't happen for months. I mean, I hear people have been talking about Temporal Mastery lately...

[JDK]

How exactly does any of these decks beat a 7/7 flying lifelink? Don't worry... you'll get to use the ability!
How does BUG kill a creature? Hmmmmmm... :eek:
Stiflenought also has ways to kill it (Liliana, Drew Levin even played Dismember and Bolts) or render it useless (Jace).


marginally worse vs TES and High Tide
Mind Twist just wins the game, while High Tide doesn't care about your 3 turn clock (4, because you cannot cast him in the first turn in UB). That's more than "marginally".

[catmint]

Against Zoo and RUG Sphinx is just as good as Gristelbrand it's because the body and lifelink is what matters here.
We are comparing Griselbrand with Jin as the 3-4 of not against the silver bullet for entombt which is the best against a specific matchup.



Against TES and High Tide Jin is exceptionally better because it forces them to combo off that turn. If not Jin, Iona does the job just as well.
Does it make such a difference if they have to combo that turn or you draw 7-14 cards to counter whatever they do?



Right now our biggest enemies are the tier 1 decks. Reanimator hasn't had much success recently because of the disruption we face, not the creatures we have.... Agree.. no new creature can do that...



...you'll see that Gristelbrand doesn't add anything that we need to the deck because he doesn't correct the problems we face.

don't agree: Swords (and Redblast) as 1 mana removal to trade against your 3(2) cards is a big problem.



Karakas: Jin and Gristelbrand are both weak to this card. Gristelbrand might be slightly better here but if your opponent has it out already then I do not see why you're wasting resources and life to run it into death.
With Griselband you get to draw 7 cards for a free discard to reanimate a monster karakas does not hurt next turn. With Jin you get nothing.




Maze of Ith: Both are weak to this too. Gristelbrand is worse here because you don't get to draw every turn because you don't get to connect every turn. Jin keeps fueling your hand to come up with a next play. Gristelbrand sits there and waits for you to die.
True. Jin is better Howver Griselbrand is not doing nothing: Decks running maze usually need to attack: You can still block with Griselbrand against most of the creatures. Also you still should be able to draw at least 7....



Swords to Plowshares: Both are weak to this card. Jin is better if he lasts until the end of your turn, Gristelbrand is better if they have an immediate answer. This is about a 50/50 here.
What happens after drawing 7 and discarding is not that elevant. What is much more relvant is that if you can't counter the swords they get a 3 for 1 (discard/reanimation/creature vs. swords) and with Griselbrand you can draw 7-14 to counter the swords in response and if not you get at least a 4:1 (discard/reanimation/creature + 7 cards versus swords)

[rxavage]

I think grislebrand is a definite inclusion in our creature package. Often I find myself in a situation where I want the draw 7 from jin and the lifelink from sphinx, now we have that in one creature. Sure the discard is nice but most often the opponent discards 2-3 unimportant cards and sphinx's protection is great but that's why we run so many counters to defend our critters. I plan on either replacing AoD or a Jin or even both and try out 2 grislebrand. I'm not saying the demon is better than sphinx or Jin, just that he may be a stronger option in some situations than the current lineup.

[zmattk]

@catmint
My saying Sphinx was just as good against RUG and Zoo was to state we already have an answer to those decks. Because even having Gristelbrand as a 2 or 3 of doesn't guarantee you will be using him against any deck. And the discard does matter quite a bit. In the storm matchups you say you can just draw 7-14 against them and counter what they do. Well since they have no removal we get the draw 7 almost no matter what from Jin. Then they have one turn to win no matter what circumstances they are in. With Gristelbrand, you still give them a window to win. Even if it's slim, there is a time where you will draw 14 cards and still lose. Not to mention with 4 Reanimates we are going to be using that slightly more than 36% of the time so the draw 14 will happen even less.

Regarding your comment about Swords and REB: Gristelbrand actually doesn't fix the problems we have GY hate, Maze of Ith, and Karakas mainly because there is a 50/50 chance they will have StP in hand when we animate a creature. If Swords and Blast are our only problems then play more shroud, but that isn't the case. And hardly any deck plays REB or Pyroblast in the main so in games 2 and 3 I hardly consider the Jin vs Gristelbrand argument it's going to take much longer to get a creature in play. And more often than not, I'll want my silver bullet.


@rxavage
You also need to realize with Gristelbrand you aren't really getting both at the same time. You get either Lifelink or Draw 7 a turn. This is also assuming you are connecting with him each turn.


I'm not saying I'm not going to test Gristelbrand. I think he deserves a chance, and he could even fit in one of the Jin slots, but I don't think he can completely take over Jin's spot in the deck. You also have to realize one of your arguments for Jin is that he's blue and dies to REB, but he's also blue and pitches to Force of Will. Completely replacing him drops your blue cards to 17 which I'm personally not comfortable with in this deck.
Regarind Karakas: Your opponent drops Karakas. I will NEVER go to bin Gristelbrand just to pay 7 life and have him bounced so I can discard maybe 2 or 3 cards. One probably being Gristelbrand to attempt to do it again. I will take my time and get a creature that won't be bounced because the decks that have Karakas won't really give us many opportunities to get creatures out.

Regarding Maze of Ith: Decks still have to attack, but they also run Mother of Runes.

[bfeingersh]

Griselbrand is cool, but Jin does so much work in the combo matchups where Big Griz doesn't. As others have mentioned, you really win the game when they have to go off their next turn or die, and you've already drawn 7 to hopefully delay that.

I'll give Griz a shot, but I don't see him taking any spots from my current reanimation team. I like him in Dredge though!

[JDK]

Does it make such a difference if they have to combo that turn or you draw 7-14 cards to counter whatever they do?
Winning counterwars against High Tide with your 4 FoW/3 Daze suite? Unlikely, especially after boarding.


True. Jin is better Howver Griselbrand is not doing nothing: Decks running maze usually need to attack: You can still block with Griselbrand against most of the creatures. Also you still should be able to draw at least 7....
Decks running Maze usually play Mother of Runes (looking at you, Maverick), so blocking is not always an option.

[Final Fortune]

People who keep saying "Griselbrand doesn't solve the deck's problems" aren't playing their SB games, while Griselbrand doesn't address graveyard hate directly, the fact of the matter is that no creature can do that nor do they need to. However, Griselbrand does downplay Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast where Jin Gitaxis does not, and by being more resistant to removal you can concentrate on using your disruption on either discarding and countering the opponent's graveyard hate or resolving your Show and Tell. I've cut both Jin Gitaxis and Sphinx of the Steel Wind for Griselbrand, and frankly I haven't looked back since because I've won significantly more games pre-board vs Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember and aggro which means I've had to play less post-board games vs graveyard hate in order to win the match overall.

I haven't had significant issues regarding Force of Will, between Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, Careful Study and the odd blue creature you'll have enough blue cards to pitch fwiw, but if you do it's just a question of playing some number of Misdirection, Ponder or Hapless Researcher to bring the U count up.

Edit: Frankly I don't care about the Storm match up, but even if I did care I don't think Jin Gitaxis is any better, and may actually be worse, than Griselbrand because even tho' the opponent has to go off or lose at the end of his turn that doesn't actually prevent him from going off - where drawing 14 cards instead of 7 cards for that Force of Will really does.

Griselbrand is just the best non-bullet creature I've played with in Reanimator, the evasive lifelink + optional hand refill just means he's never bad in any match up that I've played him in where Jin, Gitaxis sucks pretty hard vs Zoo type aggro where you have to follow him up with another creature or die shortly.

[lockeheed]

Hi it's my first time to post here but I have been reading a lot of this thread as I own a Reanimator deck.

Like Final Fortune I'd really like to test Griselbrand in Reanimator in place of Jin and also add Not of this World to protect Griselbrand from targeted removals and Karakas/Maze of Ith activations for free. This set up reminds me of the pre-mental misstep ban as we usually use Mental Misstep to protect Jin from targeted removals. It will still allow me to use Iona, and try Pathrazer of Ulamog and maybe Terastadon.

[zmattk]

People who keep saying "Griselbrand doesn't solve the deck's problems" aren't playing their SB games, while Griselbrand doesn't address graveyard hate directly, the fact of the matter is that no creature can do that nor do they need to. However, Griselbrand does downplay Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast where Jin Gitaxis does not, and by being more resistant to removal you can concentrate on using your disruption on either discarding and countering the opponent's graveyard hate or resolving your Show and Tell. I've cut both Jin Gitaxis and Sphinx of the Steel Wind for Griselbrand, and frankly I haven't looked back since because I've won significantly more games pre-board vs Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember and aggro which means I've had to play less post-board games vs graveyard hate in order to win the match overall.

I haven't had significant issues regarding Force of Will, between Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, Careful Study and the odd blue creature you'll have enough blue cards to pitch fwiw, but if you do it's just a question of playing some number of Misdirection, Ponder or Hapless Researcher to bring the U count up.

Edit: Frankly I don't care about the Storm match up, but even if I did care I don't think Jin Gitaxis is any better, and may actually be worse, than Griselbrand because even tho' the opponent has to go off or lose at the end of his turn that doesn't actually prevent him from going off - where drawing 14 cards instead of 7 cards for that Force of Will really does.

Griselbrand is just the best non-bullet creature I've played with in Reanimator, the evasive lifelink + optional hand refill just means he's never bad in any match up that I've played him in where Jin, Gitaxis sucks pretty hard vs Zoo type aggro where you have to follow him up with another creature or die shortly.

I actually have been testing Gristelbrand and sideboard matches and he definitely isn't as amazing as you say. I'm not saying I haven't won games because of him and I'm not saying he isn't good. But I cannot see myself replacing Jin with him. First off cutting the number of blue spells in a deck that plays Force of Will is always a risky idea. Second, it doesn't seem like you've had to Reanimate Gristelbrand ever because you keep talking about some amazing draw 14 every time which is not really reasonable. Third, it seems like you are the luckiest person alive because you've never missed on a draw 14, because that does happen. It's happened to me and I've lost because of it.

All of these need to be taken into account. You need to learn from both your wins and your loses and know that odds won't always be in your favor. To me, Gristelbrand is still just a conditional creature. I don't want to be animating him every single game where as I was never unhappy to see Jin in games 1. Games 2 and 3 I usually try for my silver bullet since you don't really have much of a chance to get multiple creatures out in those games. Against Zoo, Jin's draw 7 every turn pretty much means you are getting another creature very soon anyway. And against storm, like I said, you miss sometimes on your draw 7s or 14s. Jin guarantees you to draw 7 against them and if they can't win, they lose.

Right now I would say our deck's biggest problem besides gy hate is Maverick using StP, Karakas, and Maze of Ith. My ideal creature is something that can handle all three of those. Shroud for the most part is your best option here, but as we all know the shroud creatures we have aren't really that amazing. Gristelbrand is just as weak to all 3 of those as any one of our creatures. He's slightly better against StP than Jin, but like I said, he's conditional.

I feel Gristelbrand can definitely fit in this deck. He's good, but not amazing like you are saying. I'm going to go with a 2/1 split with Jin and him unless I'm otherwise proven wrong.

[Final Fortune]

I'm not saying Griselbrand is the second comming of Jesus Christ, I'm saying Griselbrand is a replacement for Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor and Sphinx of the Steel Wind in one card where you're keeping a comparable threat to Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor, multiplying the number of evasive, lifelink creatures in your deck by 4 and not automatically scooping vs Swords to Plowshares.

Ofcourse I've missed off a draw 14, but it's irrelevant, because what matters is whether or not Griselbrand improves your odds of drawing a counter in 1 turn to stop TES from going off in the following turn compared to Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor and obviously 14 cards > 7 cards puts the math in his favor the 50% of the time I play him with Exhume.

Griselbrand may not be quite as good as Jin, Gitaxis or quite as good as Sphinx of the Steelwind in terms of his card advantage or board advantage, but you get more card advantage and board advantage out of having 1 extra "Jin Gitaxis" and 3 extra "Sphinx" and overall you're better off vs Swords to Plowshares - that's a good fucking deal considering STP is on your shit list vs. Maverick.

[catmint]

Right now I would say our deck's biggest problem besides gy hate is Maverick using StP, Karakas, and Maze of Ith. My ideal creature is something that can handle all three of those. Shroud for the most part is your best option here, but as we all know the shroud creatures we have aren't really that amazing. Gristelbrand is just as weak to all 3 of those as any one of our creatures. He's slightly better against StP than Jin, but like I said, he's conditional.

"slightly" better. I "slightly" disagree with you on the level of slightlyness :smile: I already specified that its (at least) the difference of -3 for -1 vs. a +5 for -1 in terms of card advantage if the opponents swords Jin/Griselbrand.

And I hope Griselbrand and Jin are able to beat Maverick on a regular basis if the draw7 discard for free happens right? Despite of Maze of it or Karakas.

[JDK]

Ofcourse I've missed off a draw 14, but it's irrelevant, because what matters is whether or not Griselbrand improves your odds of drawing a counter in 1 turn to stop TES from going off in the following turn compared to Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor and obviously 14 cards > 7 cards puts the math in his favor the 50% of the time I play him with Exhume.
Beating a chant based storm deck with 4 FoW and 3 Daze is rarely happening. Jin forces them to go into combo mode or lose.

I can definitely see Griselbrand as a replacement for Jin in an aggro-heavy metagame, but using combo as a pro-argument...no way.

[zmattk]

"slightly" better. I "slightly" disagree with you on the level of slightlyness :smile: I already specified that its (at least) the difference of -3 for -1 vs. a +5 for -1 in terms of card advantage if the opponents swords Jin/Griselbrand.

And I hope Griselbrand and Jin are able to beat Maverick on a regular basis if the draw7 discard for free happens right? Despite of Maze of it or Karakas.

Slightly is meant as Gristelbrand is better if they actually have the StP in hand. Which is around 50% by the time we normally go off. There's also the chance we have protection in hand at that point. That's what I mean by slightly better. You aren't taking into variance at all; all you're considering is Jin vs Gristelbrand in a vacuum. Also card advantage while it matters in some sense doesn't matter as much to a combo deck. If our "+5" isn't something that can have us go off again then it really doesn't matter much. Last time I checked we aren't really grinding out many games with this deck.

Like I said, Gristelbrand needs more testing. We need to find a balance between the number of creatures, protection spells, blue spells for FoW, ect. But it seems pointless even trying to get this across to you guys cause all you are doing is pushing 3 Gristelbrand and not even accepting any other train of logic.

[Final Fortune]

Beating a chant based storm deck with 4 FoW and 3 Daze is rarely happening. Jin forces them to go into combo mode or lose.

I can definitely see Griselbrand as a replacement for Jin in an aggro-heavy metagame, but using combo as a pro-argument...no way.

4 Force of Will, 4 Daze and 4 Duress if you have the mana are more than enough to give Storm fits when you're drawing them off of 7 to 14 cards, otherwise you'd never Reanimate Jin, Gitaxis over Iona because you don't care about forcing them to go off or lose as much as you care about preventing them from going off especially if it's turn 2+.

[JDK]

4 Force of Will, 4 Daze and 4 Duress if you have the mana are more than enough to give Storm fits when you're drawing them off of 7 to 14 cards
IF you have the mana. Plus you have to play them in your turn, because Duress isn't an instant. If you don't get what you want out of those cards, you just decreased the needed stormcount by 3-4.


otherwise you'd never Reanimate Jin, Gitaxis over Iona because you don't care about forcing them to go off or lose as much as you care about preventing them from going off especially if it's turn 2+.
What do you mean by that? That you'd be playing Iona over Jin, if it weren't for Griselbrand (which would require to Entomb for her, which isn't always an option, or to play 3-4x Ionas)?

The fact is, Jin doesn't care about chant effects, while you still need +1 the amount of them in form of counters to effectively counter anything (not taking into account, that they often play around Daze).
I would definitely take the risk of getting "Stormed" after reanimating a Jin with 7 cards backup (vs 7 or 14, the latter won't happen anyway after a Reanimate...which you will need if you want to Duress someone and get Griselbrand online before turn 3), if it means I can win immediately.

[Final Fortune]

I meant if drawing 7 cards and passing the turn didn't have a reasonable chance of preventing Storm from going off then nobody would bother Reanimating Jin, Gitaxis over Iona if they had the choice (Entomb) because Iona's disruption is guaranteed where drawing a counterspell is not. In the case of Griselbrand, drawing a counterspell is just more probable than Jin, Gitaxis because you can possibly draw 14 cards in the same time frame so as long as I can prevent my opponent from winning the following turn the 7/7 flying, lifelink + redraw should be enough to end the game.

In these situations, I'm preferring the creature that prevents me from losing more than I prefer a creature who forces my opponent to try to win or lose the following turn, where both Griselbrand and Iona do a better job of preventing the opponent from winning on the following turn than Jin, Gitaxis.

Even if Griselbrand isn't as good as Jin, Gitaxis vs combo, and even if Griselbrand isn't as good as Sphinx of the Steel Wind vs aggro the point is that he's still "good enough" vs combo and aggro while giving you 1 extra relevant creature vs combo and 3 extra relevant creatures vs aggro, and Swords to Plowshares no longer wipes the floor with your deck.

Edit: Playing around Daze is bullshit if they're going to pass the turn and give me another 7 cards for their trouble, that's a total non-argument.

[JDK]

Again, let me summarize what we have learned so far:

Jin draws you 7 for free, so you don't have to mind Reanimate, Thoughtseize and Fetchlands, while Griselbrand has to be reanimated with Exhume or Animate Dead to draw 14.
Jin has Mind Twist, which is huge against Storm, Griselbrand doesn't.
Playing around Daze is irrelevant, because you expect them to pass the turn? So Jin would win anyway?
First you say Entomb isn't always an option and then you say you prefer to animate Iona?


So how does Griselbrand prevent you from losing the game more than Jin? This only happens when you can attack, which means Jin would have survived one turn anyway.

As I said, Griselbrand is better against a more aggro-heavy meta, but not against combo.

[catmint]

Of course Jin is better against combo...no question. But Griselbrand is not "bad" against combo like other anti aggro monsters. Griselbrand is a very good allrounder - strong in every matchup.

[Final Fortune]

Again, let me summarize what we have learned so far:

Jin draws you 7 for free, so you don't have to mind Reanimate, Thoughtseize and Fetchlands, while Griselbrand has to be reanimated with Exhume or Animate Dead to draw 14.
Jin has Mind Twist, which is huge against Storm, Griselbrand doesn't.
Playing around Daze is irrelevant, because you expect them to pass the turn? So Jin would win anyway?
First you say Entomb isn't always an option and then you say you prefer to animate Iona?


So how does Griselbrand prevent you from losing the game more than Jin? This only happens when you can attack, which means Jin would have survived one turn anyway.

As I said, Griselbrand is better against a more aggro-heavy meta, but not against combo.

1) Obviously
2) The Mind Twist is deceptive, either the opponent will win the following turn or he wont win the following turn, what matters is whether or not the 7 (or 14) cards you draw can prevent the opponent from winning on the following turn because even if the opponent weren't Mind Twisted you'd still be able to beat the opponent by virtue of him not having the cards he needs to go off in hand, a 3 turn clock and sculpting your hand with 7 new cards every turn that passes.
3) I said the opponent can't play around Daze because if they try to do so your board advantage and hand sculpting will end the game regardless.
4) I fail to see how these statements actually contradict each other, yes Entomb isn't always an option, but when it is an option I'd prefer to Reanimate Iona over Jin, Gitaxis or Griselbrand.

Is Jin Gitaxis better than Griselbrand against Combo? Even if I said yes, it's not so much better that I'd play it specifically for the Storm match up when Griselbrand is still enough to win the game regardless and I get 3 more flying, lifelinkers and STP insurance out of the deal.

[JDK]

2) The Mind Twist is deceptive, either the opponent will win the following turn or he wont win the following turn, what matters is whether or not the 7 (or 14) cards you draw can prevent the opponent from winning on the following turn because even if the opponent weren't Mind Twisted you'd still be able to beat the opponent by virtue of him not having the cards he needs to go off in hand, a 3 turn clock and sculpting your hand with 7 new cards every turn that passes.
If he wins the following turn, you will most likely draw 7 from Jin and Griselbrand to have counters.
If he doesn't, he cannot win anymore with Jin on the board, while he still has two full turns to find what he needs with Griselbrand. That's freaking huge against storm (incl Tide).


3) I said the opponent can't play around Daze because if they try to do so your board advantage and hand sculpting will end the game regardless.
Yeah, because the need of an extra mana means an autowin. Wait what?


4) I fail to see how these statements actually contradict each other, yes Entomb isn't always an option, but when it is an option I'd prefer to Reanimate Iona over Jin, Gitaxis or Griselbrand.
Why did you even bring up Jin vs Iona then? I never said I would reanimate him over Iona, but you said it yourself, Entomb is not always an option.


Is Jin Gitaxis better than Griselbrand against Combo? Even if I said yes, it's not so much better that I'd play it specifically for the Storm match up when Griselbrand is still enough to win the game regardless and I get 3 more flying, lifelinkers and STP insurance out of the deal.
Even if you said yes? So you don't even think he is better against Combo? :eyebrow:

Fine, I've had enough of this. Time will tell.

[Final Fortune]

You're being a pendantic ass, as I said before I believe Griselbrand has a better chance of preventing you from losing the game vs. Storm on your following turn because you can draw more cards with Griselbrand than you can draw with Jin, Gitaxis in order to find Force of Will, Daze or Duress to disrupt your opponent in the same amount of time. Whether or not you value not dying on the following turn to automatically winning if your opponent doesn't kill you on the following turn is subjective.

I understand you think that Mind Twisting your opponent is an auto-win, and in the case of Storm that is often the case, but a three turn clock and seven new cards every turn does a well enough job of sealing your position regardless.

If the opponent waits a turn in order to play around Daze, I attack him for seven damage and draw seven cards. Daze is a problem for Storm if they don't have the mana to play thru' it, and Storm can not afford to play around it by waiting to go off when they are facing a Griselbrand.

Finally, I don't really give a fuck about losing a few theoretical advantages vs. Storm compared to gaining 3 more flying lifelinkers vs aggro, that's a really big fucking distinction considering the "combo-control" of Reanimator already does really well vs Storm and has some serious issues vs Zoo and removal.

All you do is reiterate yourself and refuse to take into consideration the benefits of having a more consistent lifelinker on the field and being more resistant to removal, I'm fucking done talking to a wall.

[JDK]

Yup, like you need these "few theoretical advantages" against those decks. :rolleyes:

Take a look at the current metagame statistics and please don't be surprised to see Storm and Tide seeing way more play than Zoo.

btw I've already said Griselbrand is good in an aggro heavy meta, no need to cry.

[jcsy]

i thought some decks have chant/silence to just stop you
drawing is not useful then?

mind twist is better than?

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

[catmint]

Even if Jin is slightly better versus combo, the question is who is better against the big 3 (35%+ of the field): RUG, Maverick and Stoneblade. Griselbrand wins by a mile against those decks due to immunity versus swords and redblast. IMO: End of discussion! :wink:

[JDK]

i thought some decks have chant/silence to just stop you
drawing is not useful then?

mind twist is better than?
If they go off the turn after you reanimated Jin, they would go off against Griselbrand as well unless you reanimated Griselbrand with something else than Reanimate - to be able to draw 14 instead of 7 - AND you hit enough counters with those additional cards (two minimum, because of the chant effects). Playing something else than Reanimate also requires an additional land drop, which evens out the higher chance to draw Exhume/Animate Dead over Reanimate.
If they cannot go off this turn, they cannot go off at all, due to Mind Twist.


Even if Jin is slightly better versus combo, the question is who is better against the big 3 (35%+ of the field): RUG, Maverick and Stoneblade. Griselbrand wins by a mile against those decks due to immunity versus swords and redblast. IMO: End of discussion! :wink:
Mind twist versus control is not better?
Immunity to swords? Drawing 7 means Shroud? Plus Maze bites you in the ass.

As I said, it depends on the meta-game and Canadian is certainly easier with Griselbrand (even tough Stifle gets you good).

If you want to end the discussion, end it. Nobody is stopping you from doing so.

[Final Fortune]

If they go off the turn after you reanimated Jin, they would go off against Griselbrand as well unless you reanimated Griselbrand with something else than Reanimate - to be able to draw 14 instead of 7 - AND you hit enough counters with those additional cards (two minimum, because of the chant effects). Playing something else than Reanimate also requires an additional land drop, which evens out the higher chance to draw Exhume/Animate Dead over Reanimate.
If they cannot go off this turn, they cannot go off at all, due to Mind Twist.


Mind twist versus control is not better?
Immunity to swords? Drawing 7 means Shroud? Plus Maze bites you in the ass.

As I said, it depends on the meta-game and Canadian is certainly easier with Griselbrand (even tough Stifle gets you good).

If you want to end the discussion, end it. Nobody is stopping you from doing so.

Are you too thick to realize that instantly drawing 7 cards and either countering Swords to Plowshares or trading your new hand for 0 life is better than drawing 0 cards for +5 life vs. Swords to Plowshares?

I'll give you Maze of Ith, but it's a 1xLand compared to 4xSwords to Plowshares, XxDismember, SB Path to Exile and Red Elemental Blast, so the weight of the concern falls on instant speed removal and Red Elemental Blast and not 1xLand played in one Deck.

And Griselbrand > Jin, Gitaxis vs control, assuming you resolve your Jin, Gitaxis thru' removal in order to get to your Mind Twist is asking a lot.

[JDK]

You know a Maze can be tutored for on turn 3 already (T1: Noble Hierarch/GSZ+Arbor, T2: KotR, T3: Activate for Maze), right? So it's basically a 5-of.

You are so focused on Blasts and yet only one of the "Big 3" is using 0-3 of them in their Sideboard. I still haven't met a Blast in an actual game against RUG (either due to the small amount of Blasts or different boarding).

You can play him as much as you like, no one is stopping you. I won't - at least not as a complete replacement for Jin. Get over it.

[JDK]

Wow, that hurt. :cry:

I didn't compare them, just said it can be easily tutored for. If you don't want to face it, that's fine. No need for harsh words, sweety. :rolleyes:

[Caligola]

As i went really bad in a tourney today (2-5) i am kinda curious how your sideboard and maindecks look like?
And how do you board against the most played decks, like dredge, maverick, rug? especially maverick actually, as i lost 2 matches against that deck and it really is heavily played in my meta. I am new to the deck and i don't have any real experience with it, since i just started to play the deck
(and before january of this year i did not play Magic for years (since 2007))

i am playing 17 lands i was kinda pissed to always draw too many(i lost against a monoblack discard deck, because i topdecked lands like a boss for 5 rounds), so is it an option to play 16 lands? or would you say that 16 is too low a manabase?

[Ricardio]

Hi I am new. That being said, my current list.
3 jin
1 elesh
1 empyrial
1 terastodon
1 sphinx
1 inkwell
8
4 reanimate
4 entomb
3 animate dead
4 exhume
2 duress
25
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
3 ponder
3 daze
43
4 polluted
4 underground
2 swamp
1 island
3 verdant
2 flooded
1 scalding
60
I was thinking about cutting 2 duress and 1 exhume for another ponder and 2 gitaxian probe.
-2 Duress: used to be thoughtseize but the life hurts and its hardly ever relevant.
+1 Ponder and +2 probe: more draw is good
-1 Exhume: very creature based atm and I usually have more reanimation than necessary.
I was thinking to maybe cut a jin for a grisel
My sb:
1 iona
1 platinum emperion
4 SnT
2 dispel
1 emrakul
1 progenitus
4 leyline of sanctity

The progenitus and emrakul is often times win more but useful more than not.
I'm not totally sold on my sb for scg Orlando but that will be a little while.
AVR wise, the deck isn't really effected from what I can tell.
Thoughts?

[into_play]

^ Welcome to the Source Ricardio!

I would not make any changes to your maindeck. The two Duress are perfectly fine pre-emptive hate game 1 against anything but a Scavenging Ooze. Compared to Gitaxian Probe, Duress I like more for the discard over the cantrip, and like you said, the life loss from your own spells can be painful. If they are ineffective in your matchup, they are easy exclusions for better sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. Also, Exhume would be the last reanimate spell that I would drop to below four of. Unlike Reanimate and Animate Dead, which target upon casting, Exhume lets you choose after the spell resolves. This way, you can hold an Entomb in hand to use after a one-shot graveyard hate effect resolves and still get a creature from the spell.

As for your sideboard, I think you should cut the Emrakul and Progenitus. They can only be put into play via a successful Show and Tell, and even then you must still draw into them. This will never happen consistently. Also, what are the Leyline of Sanctity's used for? They are not needed against Burn, since so many of your reanimated creatures spells doom for them if they land early enough. They seem too narrow, and if you do not land one initially they are all dead draws later on.

I would definitely consider adding 2-3 Pithing Needles to the sideboard. They are pretty much the most versatile "anti-hate" card you can have in games 2 and 3. They hit Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Faerie Macabre, Jace, Liliana, Maze of Ith, Karakas and other random activated abilities you might encounter. Some bounce spells should be included specifically for Leyline of the Voids; they are also useful for fringe permanents like Ensnaring Bridge that would be impossible to get rid of from the battlefield. I would suggest putting a Blazing Archon in the sideboard. The Archon can lock some opponents out completely, and is one of the most assuring creatures to grab against Sneak Attack decks.

Lastly, the inclusion and role of Griselbrand is being hotly debated here. I personally think he should be tested at the very least as a one-of in the maindeck (as would most people I presume). I do not know if I would drop a Jin for him though. I still would like to have one creature with at least three copies in the deck, to serve as a general "go-to" creature for any matchup. The Mind Twist effect makes him the gamewinner against most control and combo decks, and the hand size swing is never a bad thing against aggro. If I were to use your creature suite, I would drop the Empyrial Archangel for a Griselbrand, since you already have Inkwell as a shroudy guy.

I hope this helps. It is going to be a blast playing with a Yawgmoth's Bargain in the deck now!

[Ricardio]

^ Welcome to the Source Ricardio!

I would not make any changes to your maindeck. The two Duress are perfectly fine pre-emptive hate game 1 against anything but a Scavenging Ooze. Compared to Gitaxian Probe, Duress I like more for the discard over the cantrip, and like you said, the life loss from your own spells can be painful. If they are ineffective in your matchup, they are easy exclusions for better sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. Also, Exhume would be the last reanimate spell that I would drop to below four of. Unlike Reanimate and Animate Dead, which target upon casting, Exhume lets you choose after the spell resolves. This way, you can hold an Entomb in hand to use after a one-shot graveyard hate effect resolves and still get a creature from the spell.

As for your sideboard, I think you should cut the Emrakul and Progenitus. They can only be put into play via a successful Show and Tell, and even then you must still draw into them. This will never happen consistently. Also, what are the Leyline of Sanctity's used for? They are not needed against Burn, since so many of your reanimated creatures spells doom for them if they land early enough. They seem too narrow, and if you do not land one initially they are all dead draws later on.

I would definitely consider adding 2-3 Pithing Needles to the sideboard. They are pretty much the most versatile "anti-hate" card you can have in games 2 and 3. They hit Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Faerie Macabre, Jace, Liliana, Maze of Ith, Karakas and other random activated abilities you might encounter. Some bounce spells should be included specifically for Leyline of the Voids; they are also useful for fringe permanents like Ensnaring Bridge that would be impossible to get rid of from the battlefield. I would suggest putting a Blazing Archon in the sideboard. The Archon can lock some opponents out completely, and is one of the most assuring creatures to grab against Sneak Attack decks.

Lastly, the inclusion and role of Griselbrand is being hotly debated here. I personally think he should be tested at the very least as a one-of in the maindeck (as would most people I presume). I do not know if I would drop a Jin for him though. I still would like to have one creature with at least three copies in the deck, to serve as a general "go-to" creature for any matchup. The Mind Twist effect makes him the gamewinner against most control and combo decks, and the hand size swing is never a bad thing against aggro. If I were to use your creature suite, I would drop the Empyrial Archangel for a Griselbrand, since you already have Inkwell as a shroudy guy.

I hope this helps. It is going to be a blast playing with a Yawgmoth's Bargain in the deck now!

I don't understand the bargain reference but here goes.
I agree with everything but empyrial. I love her and she was my Mvp at scg Tampa.
I would never cut her.

2 jin
1 griselbrand
1 elesh
1 empyrial
1 terastodon
1 sphinx
1 inkwell
8
4 reanimate
4 entomb
3 animate dead
4 exhume
2 duress
25
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
3 ponder
3 daze
43
4 polluted
4 underground
2 swamp
1 island
3 verdant
2 flooded
1 scalding
60
Sideboard.
4 show and tell
2 echoing
1 wipe away
3 pithing
1 dispel
2 mindbreak
1 Iona
1 blazing archon

This is as close to finished as I can come atm.
Super basic and very reliable
Jin for grisel is a testing thing. I understand the logic but I wanna see some diversity in my creatures bc like it has been said a million times in this thread, they are great for different situations.

[Johanovich]

Hi everyone,

I just registered to the source since I have been following this thread (and others) for some time. Reanimator has become, like for many of you, kind of a pet deck for me and I felt it became time to join in on the discussion.

Currently I'm testing the following list:

Lands:
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
2 swamp
2 island
1 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
1 marsh flats

Creatures:
2 griselbrand
1 jin gitaxias, core augur
2 iona, shield of emeria
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 inkwell leviathan
1 hapless researcher

Discard:
4 entomb
4 careful study

Draw:
4 brainstorm
2 ponder

Reanimation suite:
4 reanimate
4 exhume
3 animate dead

Protection suite:
4 force of will
3 daze
1 misdirection
2 thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 empyrial archangel (might become sigarda, host of herons)
1 blazing archon
2 surgical extraction
2 cursed totem
3 show and tell
2 echoing truth
3 spell pierce
1 misdirection

Now for the explanation of my choices:
In my metagame there is an awful lot of maverick and esper/stoneblade decks, therefore swords to plowshares is an omnipresent threat to my fatties. Therefore I opted to play 2 griselbrands since these should be better at evading swords and should be better against aggro with the 7/7 lifelink.

Since I have to give up a part of my positive matchup against storm decks by playing griselbrand, I play an extra iona, shield of emeria which should be able to shut down most combo decks. She is also decent against the beforementioned decks if you name white.

I have dropped the angel of despair since I have really only used it once, and at that point it was a win-more card (against enchantress to destroy an elephant grass which didn't matter because I had iona on green and 3 mana).

Empyrial has been sub-par so far since every time I got it out against esper/stoneblade I got 1 turn short of killing them before they had an out in the form of jitte with spirit tokens or just dealt enough damage to kill her. I moved the inkwell to the main instead.

Misdirection has worked great for me so far. Misdirecting burn, swords or even turnabout is great and otherwise it functions mostly as an extra force of will.

Now for the points I'm not so sure about:
I like cursed totem a lot since it shuts down many problematic creatures, but it is an obvious nonbo with griselbrand. Perhaps switch this back to pithing needles? Maybe play 2 jin and 2 grisel main and move the second iona to the side so I can bring her and archon in with totems in game 2?

I am also thinking about running perish and/or massacre. They seem really good against matchups which get nasty game 2.

I also haven't seen many gravehate in the form of leyline (that is, none) or tormod's crypt, which makes me quistion if running echoing truth as a 3-off or even a 2-off is still worth it?

What do you guys think?

[rxavage]

I Like your list alot and have come to a similar one with mine I agree with 2 Griselbrand main except I run Massacre Wurm md instead of siding perishes or massacres. and the second Iona is in the side, High tide can answer 1 sometimes with surgical extraction or slaughter pact but having two available helps our burn and every other mono coloured match up. I have 2 Lim Dul's vault over ponder, I feel that Jin and Grisel Make of for the slight card disadvantage of what is basically a mystical/worldy tutor for BU and -2 or -3 life at worst and its cheaper than intuitiuon. my counter sweet is 4 FoW, 1 Misdirection, 2 Daze, 1 Flusterstorm. And Ive decided to try 2 Ancient tomb in my sb.

CREATURES 9
2 Jin-gitaxias
2 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn
1 Massacre wurm

INSTANTS 17
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
4 Entomb

SORCERIES 16
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
2 Lim Dul’s Vault

ENCHANMENTS 2
2 Animate Dead

LANDS 16
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
4 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell pierce
2 Duress
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Angel of Distruction
1 Iona
2 Ancient Tomb

[Johanovich]

Yeah I have been thinking about using massacre wurm too since it is a nonlegend. But it doesn't help against creatures like scavenging ooze because we can't realistically hardcast it. That's where the perish/massacre might come in handy. Especially massacre since most of the times it will be a free spell and we can then proceed to reanimate a fatty after clearing the board. Maybe I will try 2 massacre instead of 2 cursed totem.

I agree that lim-dûl's vault is very strong, and that it's use is a question of personal taste. I think it's a bit too slow, but I also strongly dislike playing ponder, but since we only play 16-17 lands I have to aknowledge that the digging power and shuffle effect is necessary.

How has the empyrial angel been working for you? I noticed that it usually gets swarmed and you can't recover from that.

What matchup would you use the ancient tombs for? I would think that the extra lifeloss might backfire on you combined with the thoughtseizes, fetches and reanimates. Also you might get colorscrewed if you only draw a tomb and let's say an island, and you have entomb + reanimate.

[rxavage]

Yeah I have been thinking about using massacre wurm too since it is a nonlegend. But it doesn't help against creatures like scavenging ooze because we can't realistically hardcast it. That's where the perish/massacre might come in handy. Especially massacre since most of the times it will be a free spell and we can then proceed to reanimate a fatty after clearing the board. Maybe I will try 2 massacre instead of 2 cursed totem.

I agree that lim-dûl's vault is very strong, and that it's use is a question of personal taste. I think it's a bit too slow, but I also strongly dislike playing ponder, but since we only play 16-17 lands I have to aknowledge that the digging power and shuffle effect is necessary.

How has the empyrial angel been working for you? I noticed that it usually gets swarmed and you can't recover from that.

What matchup would you use the ancient tombs for? I would think that the extra lifeloss might backfire on you combined with the thoughtseizes, fetches and reanimates. Also you might get colorscrewed if you only draw a tomb and let's say an island, and you have entomb + reanimate.



I Like Archangel as a jace killer and pseudo-fog, sure she gets swarmed sometimes but she stalls long enough in those situation for other answers and if no answers are found I would've been dead any how, maybe Inkwell is the better shroud creature I will have to see. Also, she isn't usually ever my first target. The tombs i figured i could side in addition to the show and tells to help with that where we wont be relying on reanimate so much at the beginning and with the 3 lifelinkers I'm not too concerned with the life loss, I have stabilized from a single life to come back for the win or extremely low life quite a few times.

[Dzra]

my counter sweet is 4 FoW, 1 Misdirection, 2 Daze, 1 Flusterstorm.

I think that Misdirection is something to look into. I'm thinking that because of Griselbrand, I'll be moving Thoughtseize to the SB and running some combination of Dispel and Misdirection in its place (Flusterstorm might be something to look into also). Drawing into free/cheap countermagic at instant speed seems very powerful (and unlike stuff like Not Of This World, it helps us actually land our combo). Karakas is still a problem though Terastodon helps there. I also think it might be right to cut a Reanimate and bump Animate Dead in its place, also due to Griselbrand.

[Johanovich]

In my opinion you should never play more than 1-2 misdirection.
It doesn't help us against storm (mostly does nothing against ANT since there are almost no targets), it doesn't counter problematic creatures like knight and thalia and it costs an extra blue card so running too much makes for a big card-disadvantage. I used to play 1 main and 1 side and have now dropped the one in the side and unless I see a major resurgence of burn I will not put it back in again.

I would never cut thoughtseize from the main since it also funtions as a discard outlet. Playing a thoughtseize when your opponen has taken a mulligan is just so cruel!

On the reanimate vs animate dead argument: animate dead is much more available for hate as reanimate. It is caught by spell snare, decreases the efficiency of griselbrand due to th reduced power and is succeptible to pridemages. I noticed that reanimating a griselbrand usually isn't that bad since you can still pay 7 and hopefully counter (or misdirect) their swords. After that its more a matter of beating. Like rxravage said we can go down to 1 life and still win. I even won a match against pox on 1 life and with only 1 card left in my library (nearly decked myself with jin, bounced him at end of turn and then managed to get iona, sphinx and elesh online in 1 turn).

I tested massacre online and I must say I like it very much so far. Not only does it kill early scavenging oozes, it also help get rid of other problematic creatures such as thalia, aven mindcensor and stoneforge mystic. And as a bonus it also kills mana dorks and shrinks knights. As of right now I'm thinking of running this sideboard:

1 jin-gitaxias, core augur
1 blazing archon
1 inkwell leviathan
2 echoing truth
3 show and tell
2 duress
3 spell pierce
2 massacre

Explanation:
Offcourse 3 show and tell + 2 echoing truth as standard gravehate-hate.
The 3 spell pierce come in to take the position of daze game 2 (if I won).

This way I have at least 1 creature and 2 extra spells to bring in for every matchup (roughly speaking)
2 massacre and archon for aggro matchups that are problematic (maverick, death and taxes, stone/esperblade)
2 duress and jin for combo and 2 duress and inkwell for control matchups. Offcourse inkwell is also very good for stoneblade and jin is also good for control matchups but you get the idea.

Merfolk isn't being played much right now and is a bad matchup anyway and goblins isn't considered problematic (we still have to see what cavern of souls will do for them)

On another note:
Recently a guy finished 5th in a tournament (outpost masters) here in Belgium with this list:
4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
3 Show and Tell
3 Thoughseize
2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One

Personally I find this a risky list since he almost automatically scoops to a resolved leyline or grafdigger's cage unless he has a show and tell in his hand. But it seems to have worked for him (other decks in top 8 were RUG tempo, Sneaky show, Maverick, UWR stoneblade, Esper blade, Hive mind and Burn)

PS: Sorry for japping on and on and posting way too long messages :wink:

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

It has been awhile since I have posted here. I have been in between decks and local Legacy just started firing regularly again. At any rate, it feels good to be back.


In my opinion you should never play more than 1-2 misdirection.

I like two. I enjoy sideboarding them in for FoWs in match ups with StP or PtE. Two for Twos seem subpar, but when your keep you reanimated investment alive, it is likely worth it. Moreover, a two for two is just straight up better than the two for one that FoW offers. I guess if you are saving FoWs for other purposes in those MUs, then this might not be a game plan for you. However it has been serving me well for quite awhile.


1 Massacre

When did this happen? This is just awesome! Seems exceptionally powerful against both Maverick and Stoneblade variants. In the Maverick MU, this should kill everything but KotR and a pumped Scavenging Ooze. Against Stoneblade decks, this should kill everything but a Batterskull or batterskulled creature. Any reason you think there is only one? It just seems really legit to me. What do other think about this?

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've done a bit of testing with AVR coming out soon--and i have to say: Griselbrand is amazing. I started him out as a 2-of replacing 1 Jin and 1 Sphinx, but I have to say that in the games I've played, there have been a lot of times where Jin was just dead in my hand while I wished it was a Griselbrand. Though my testing has been limited, I really have to say that he is a lot more versatile. He's not dead versus aggro like Jin tends to be after turn 2-3. The main problem is that Griselbrand doesn't really play well with reanimate--I rectified that by dropping it down to a 2 of and adding in 2 show and tells as well as upping animate dead to a 4 of. More testing is required, but I personally think Gris is the real deal.

[egosum]

Fisrt of all, I'd like to say hello. This is the first time I'm posting in this thread.

I' ve been playing reanimator for a moth or so and finally, with Avacyn released and legal, I played my first tournament with the deck. It was a 20-people at a local store located in Barcelona (Spain). And finished 1st (Making a perfect, only lost a single game and it was against Dredge siding Leylines in, which I didn't expected, so I scooped). The list worked wonders.

UBr Reanimator:

Main deck 60

2x Griselbrand
2x Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Terastodon
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Misdirection

3x Brainstorm

4x Careful Study
3x Faithless Looting

4x Entomb

4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Animate Dead

2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Undergrond Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard 15:

3x Show and Tell
3x Echoing Truth
3x Duress
3x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Blazing Archon

This is the final iteration of something I started testing (as I said above) a month before the Avacyn Release. So every card has a meaning on its own for the current meta game. I' d like to explain some weird choices a bit...

-Faithless Looting: as you may have noticed is the only reason for messing the mana base a bit (not much, since it really changed 2 Underground Seas for 2 Red duals, which respected the basic mana count of the deck, one of the greatest strengths the deck has). It is, really, worth the splash. Having 7 careful studies in the decks helps you to have a monster in the graveyard sooner and allows you to find the action easier, despite the card disadvantage (something that will be solved when one of the main monsters gets reanimated). Plus the flashback gives you some movement if the game goes longer. It's been an all star every time I've drawn it.

-2+2 (Gris + Jin): having this split helps you to fight Surgical/Extirpate Effects in game 2, plus one is better in matches where the other isn't. Also I felt like I had to respect some number of Jins for not playing Iona main deck (which I'll explain later), plus he counts as a blue card aswell.

-Iona: it may seem stupid not to play Iona main deck, but this is a meta call. The slot reserved for the white Angel was taken by the Sphinx of the Steel Wind, this is because against the 3 tier Decks (RUG, GW and Blade) the latter is a lot better than the former (maybe the only exception could be Blade, but even against blade Iona is not the nuts). In addition we also have a favorable match up against combo, which is the kind of deck that Iona hurts the most, thanks to Jin, speed and free countermagic. And finally Sphinx kept a non-legendary slot which is also quite interesting if we think that 2 of the three, "main", tiers play Karakas (and one of them can fetch it with the Knights of the Reliquary). If at any Point the meta evolved into a more mono colored/comboish she will be back quickly to the main replacing Sphinx/Elesh/or the weakest creature for that given moment.

-Terastodon: over the Angel. Because Terastodon is the kind of card that really helps you to come from behind, dealing with multiple problems on its own, or in some situations against very slow decks (for instance, Pox), can be recurred with multiple animate reads (Animate Dead --> Terastodon targeting 2 opponent's permanents and animate dead, the animate it again for value).

-Misdirection: over thoughtseize. I know seize has a double use in the deck, but with lootings I rarely needed it. What is more important is that free "countermagic" has better synergy with our draw 7 engines. Plus helps in the blue count.

-Brainstorm: only three. I felt that in game one this card was just disturbing our game plan, but it is an all star in G2 and G3, helping you fixing the hands without hate/bussiness (or with excess). FInally 3 seemed the best number.

-Cursed Totem: it is the 4th "über specialized" pithing needle, against GW is most times better shutting down lots of problems at once (Ooze, Knight, Mother of Runes, and for free you hose their mana base a little).

-Duress: instead of 1-mana countermagic (Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Dispel). G2 plan, most of times, includes playing Show and Tell, and amassing 4 lands with this deck is both difficult and not a good idea (we play more comfortable in the very early game), so trying to play a Show and Tell protected duress seemed a lot better. Moreover it is a better hate card to fight Surgical/Extirpate.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Dzra]

I've been trying to fit in Faithless Looting also, but cutting Ponder for it seems risky. Especially since you are keeping the 17 land count and adding in Misdirection.

[egosum]

Reanimator looks stronger than other similar combo decks to me because of the redundancy it inherently has. This is why Adding too many cantrips looks weak to me. Hence I said brainstorm was "so, so" and is the reason I don 't play Ponder. Cantrips, typically helps with fixing the mana base or sculpting the hand so you can assemble the combo pieces easily, however this never seemed difficult to me with my reanimator configuration because 17 lands 11/12/11 (discard outlets/Creatures/Reanimation Spells) were enough to go off consistently in the early game, which is what we are looking for.

Though as I said with brainstorm, ponder may help to go through G2/G3, because the hate you side in is not that redundant, and one tend to dilute the deck, making it a little slower (notice that being slower in G2/G3 is a virtue so we are not falling right into a well placed hate pice). But as I tried to make a deck that uses Packs of 6 (i.e. 3x Duress + 3x Show and Tell to fight Surgical/Extirpate, 3x Echoing Truth + 3x Show and Tell to fight Leyline/Cage, 3x Pithing + 3x Truth to fight Tormod/Relic/Nihil, ...) cards with a similar function, it looks like redundant enough for not needing massive cantripping to get it (the 3 brainstorms + Discard outlets have been enough during all my testing period).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Philipp2293]

So, if you run those packages and tend to bring in 6 cards that "fit", what do you take out? I'm aware that you take out different creatures for different MUs, but how is the split between creatures/reanimation spells/enablers/protection you usually take out?

Many thanks!

[egosum]

Not really I really feel that taking creatures out, if I' m going to the Show and Tell plan is weak.

If I side S&T + Duress I usually side:

-2x Animate Dead
-1x Entomb
-1x Faithless Looting
-1x Misdirection
-1x Scalding Tarn

If I side S&T + Echoing I usually side against a non countermagic opponent:

-2x Animate Dead
-2x Misdirection
-1x Faithless Looting
-1x Entomb

Against a countermagic opponent is the same though I keep the Misdirections and side:

-1x Scalding Tarn
-1x Animate Dead

Against GW:

+3x Pithing Needle
+1x Cursed Totem

-2x Animate Dead
-1x Jin Gitaxias
-1x Faithless Looting

Against RUG (since their hate combination typically is 2+2 Tormod's + Surgical, or permutations of this):

+3x Duress
+3x Pithing Needle
+1x Blazing Archon
+1x Iona (while not the best she is a big badass flyer that hoses big part of the deck, naming different colors according the game state)
(Show and Tell is weak against them because is hared to play it around their taxation spells + Pyroblasts)

-3x Animate Dead (very weak against them can be snared and stifled).
-1x Faithless looting
-1x Terastodon
-1x Elesh Norn
-1x Jin Gitaxias
-1x Misdirection

Hope this helps, if you are interested some specific sideboarding just let me know.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Anselm]

I've been thinking about ways to change the RUG matchup, especially now that they've stopped playing counterbalance in the sb and many have cut stifle too. It should be quite beatable with the right plan. Overloading the counter wall with discard seems like one way, while playing around what they have left. So: How about boarding 4 Cabal Therapy along with 1 Dryad Arbor and using green fetches main (except for deltas, of course)? Probably going up another land too. That way, you should be able to just get most of their disruption. And with Griselbrand, you have a lot more threats that are viable around turn 4-5 too, unlike when running 3 Jin-Gitaxias. What do you think? I haven't had time to test this yet.

[egosum]

Assumming you are talking about adding it to the UB list, because splashing green in the UBr seems quite an unnecessary mess (not only for mana base, but in terms of fetch lands aswell). Moreover splashing green, if not played carefully, opens you to Submerge which really hurts. On the other hand adding Dryad to the equation may help if the meta fills with Sacrifice effects. Overall the Pros doesn't outweigh the Cons for me.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Anselm]

Assumming you are talking about adding it to the UB list, because splashing green in the UBr seems quite an unnecessary mess (not only for mana base, but in terms of fetch lands aswell). Moreover splashing green, if not played carefully, opens you to Submerge which really hurts. On the other hand adding Dryad to the equation may help if the meta fills with Sacrifice effects. Overall the Pros doesn't outweigh the Cons for me.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I'm not really talking about splashing green, I'm talking about boarding a single dryad arbor solely for saccing to cabal therapy.

[hofzge]

You still need a green fetch to get it which does not work with the UBr manabase...

[rxavage]

You still need a green fetch to get it which does not work with the UBr manabase...


Verdant Catacombs? Misty Rainforest?




Edit: In no way am I advocating dryad arbor. If edict's are a concern or for cabal therapy, hapless researcher is better imo. Might as well get some really great value...

[Anselm]

Yes, obviously. I'm not talking about the red version (which I wouldn't advocate in any respect anyway).

[JDK]

Reanimator, Dryad Arbor? Holy shit, please stop...

[egosum]

Early reanimator versions used to play Arbor (as a sideboard tech) to fight Edicts, they were very popular once (see the archives), they also used the Green splash for Reverent silence and "Green Fog with flashback". So it's not that strange. But as I'm very happy with the Red Splash I won't consider any other splash.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Snap_Keep]

Reanimator, Dryad Arbor? Holy shit, please stop...

Get off your high horse. Fetch into arbor used to be a critical trick for reanimator. Just because it isn't as good as it used to be doesn't mean you need to be so negative about it.

[dahcmai]

I remember LSV liked that Arbor trick quite a bit during the heydey of reanimator. It was nice for edicts.


By the way, I was playing around with Sigarda, host of Herons for laughs and found out she's actually kind of scary. Hexproof and being unable to edict her off the table demands a wrath. I kind of like that. Her clock isn't too horrid either being a 5/5. Only problem is getting raced here and there, but there's other targets if you're that worried. Give it a shot, it's amazing how many decks just fall over to it.

[JDK]

Are we taking history classes or discussing about current builds?

[Snap_Keep]

And what have contributed you to this thread? The answer is very little.

I was the first person to suggest Griselbrand and I posted my list, all you've done is make snide comments and basically detracted from this thread. Feel free to get defensive or make a post about how I wrong I am, I won't read it or reply to it though.


On topic... I feel like the SnT sb plan is showing it's age and is really predictable these days. Especially with so many decks running Spell Pierce in the SB and some MD, SnT can be really hard to push through. I think the plan works better if you also have Misdirections to bring in as well, but even then you can get FoW'd then SP'd. I have been toying with the idea of a transformative SB... g2/g3 you can turn into tempo/aggro by having x4 delver and x1/2 Clique and something else to round out the creature suite. I had considered Tombstalker because it's in color and is a great beater, although, the grave hate which we're looking to dodge in g2/g3 definitely hurts Tombstalker's effectiveness.

Can anyone think of some good u/b aggro critters to help with the transformative SB? I haven't done any testing yet, but I will report back after I nail down a SB and get some games in against rug, blade and maverick.

[JDK]

And what have contributed you to this thread? The answer is very little.

I was the first person to suggest Griselbrand and I posted my list, all you've done is make snide comments and basically detracted from this thread. Feel free to get defensive or make a post about how I wrong I am, I won't read it or reply to it though.
Yeah it's really hard to come up with the idea to include new fatties. :rolleyes:

I provided lots of arguments regarding Griselbrand which you can find on the previous pages. Anyway, why is this even relevant? You can write me a PM, if you don't want to lose face due to your "not reading or replying" tough guy nonsense.

[hofzge]

On an unrelated note: Do you, and if so what do you name on a blind Pithing Needle T1?
If e.g. you have a Careful Study, Exhume, reanimation target and a Pithing Needle, do you preemptively play it?
Do you study and hope he has no Tormod's Crypt?
Does it depend on if the reanimation target is a draw7 or not?

I am often at a loss as to how to play post-board and I think the only interesting games are g2/g3, as in those you have to play aroud or through what the opponent has.

[P-E]

Inaki,

thanks for all the job.
I'm wondering what would you side against Pox and Cephalid ?

Cephalid seems obvious ^^ needle and totem own it
For pox , i want to keep the misdirection a lot for hymn and sinkhole etc


regards

[PirateKing]

I have been toying with the idea of a transformative SB... g2/g3 you can turn into tempo/aggro by having x4 delver and x1/2 Clique and something else to round out the creature suite. I had considered Tombstalker because it's in color and is a great beater, although, the grave hate which we're looking to dodge in g2/g3 definitely hurts Tombstalker's effectiveness.

Can anyone think of some good u/b aggro critters to help with the transformative SB? I haven't done any testing yet, but I will report back after I nail down a SB and get some games in against rug, blade and maverick.

Have you thought about StifleNought as a left field creature? Along with the Delvers and Cliques you could put a clock up pretty fast. You would still have the counters, letting you be semi-consistant in putting power on the board and having a way to protect it. Plus there are a number of reanimation headaches that could use a Stifle.

Letting you preempt the graveyard hate into dead cards seems really strong, but it seems very all or nothing. You devote a lot of real estate in order to get these in any useful time frame. In this meta of the top three being Maverick, RUG and Blade, all of which give us problems, this much space may be worth it.

But I'm worried we're limiting the deck to just these. Our strength is that we pack a suite of silver bullet fatties to wreak others. If we give up on that and go for an aggro out on game 2, we're losing a lot of our strengths. I see situations where we go into G2 without any sideboarding because we've limited ourselves so narrow to just those deck, nothing is applicable.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

I went down to Jupiter Games yesterday for their last NELC qualifier event for the season, and I decided to go with Reanimator. The last time I was there I had played it as well, but I didn't do too spectacular. I was hoping that was going to change this time.

Creatures: 8
2x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Griselbrand
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Angel of Despair
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Non-Creature: 35
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
3x Daze
2x Ponder
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate
3x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
3x Thoughtseize

Lands: 17
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard: 15
1x Blazing Archon
3x Show and Tell
2x Echoing Truth
2x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away
2x Massacre
1x Thoughtseize
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sundering Titan

There were a total of 63 players at the event. Not as many I believe as the one last month, but definitely more than the one in March.

To anyone who I played against and didn't remember their names, if you see this I apologize.

Round 1: Adam with B/W Aggro (Deadguy Ale?)

Game 1: I see him play Swamps, so I got to reanimate Iona. Then he searches out a Plains and trys to Swords Iona, and I Force it. On his next turn, he tries to Swords Iona again, and again I Force it. Iona gets me there.

Game 2: He drops a Vampire Nighthawk on his turn two after having playing a Chrome Mox turn 1. and I dump and reanimate Elesh Norn. On his fourth turn, he hardcasts Batterskull. On my next turn I play Massacre to clear his field. He bounces Batterskull back and tries to play it again, but I Force it. I get him down to either 4 or 8 life before he kicks a Gatekeeper of Malakir and then equips a SoFaI to it the following turn.

Game 3: I start with a land and Pass. He starts his first turn with a Chrome Mox into Stoneforge Mystic grabbing Batterskull with it. I thoughtseize the Batterskull out of hand and see he's also holding a Liliana and a Snuff Out. On his turn he plays Liliana and makes us both discard. During his end step I entomb for Angel of Despair and reanimate her on my turn hitting Liliana. He tries to play Snuff Out on the Angel, but I point out to him that the Angel is a black creature. I Entomb on the end of his turn and he asks if I had a reanimation spell, and I show him the two Animate Deads in hand.

1-0-0

Round 2: Player with LED Dredge

Game 1: I win the die roll and start the game with a Thoughseize revealing a hand of Gemstone Mine, 2 Cabal Therapies, Ichorid, 2 Golgari Thugs, and I believe a Bridge from Below. I make him discard one of the Therapies. on his Turn he plays the other Therapy but I force it, and during the end step I entomb Iona. I reanimate Iona on my following turn and call black to lock out his in-hand Thugs and his yarded Therapies.

Game 2: I can't remember much about how this game started, but I ended up winning after reanimating Elesh Norn to keep him from getting any board presence going.

2-0-0

Round 3: Player with Mono-U Hive Mind

Game 1: He and I go back and forth a bit, and after getting 3 Island and a Sol Land into play, he goes for Show and Tell. I try to Force it, but he plays the last card he has in hand which is Pact of Negation. Show and Tell resolves with him putting Progenitus into play and I putting Jin-Gitaxias into play. For my next turn I draw entomb, so I play it to put Angel of Despair into grave and reanimate it. I shoot his Sol Land, and loses to his own Pact.

Game 2: after my opponent had played out a Tormod's Crypt and had Chalice of the Void set for 1, he goes for the win with Hive Mind and Pact of the Titan.

Game 3: He lands Tormod's Crypt and a Chalice of the Void set for 1 again, but when he tried to put out another Chalice for 2, I end up Forcing it. At the end of his turn, I play Echoing Truth to bounce his Chalice set for 1. On my turn I play exhume while I have a Jin in grave that I binned earlier, making him use his Crypt. After Crypt's effect resolved, I Entomb Iona to bring her back calling Blue.

3-0-0

Round 4: Adam with UWr Stoneblade

Game 1: I Thoughtseize him on my first turn and hit his only nonland card in hand. on my next turn I Entomb and Reanimate Empyrial Archangel. All downhill for him after that.

Game 2: I try to get to enough mana to play the Show and Tell I opened with, but he plays Vendilion Clique to get rid of the Griselbrand I had in hand. In total, I see five reanimation spells, with no real way of putting anything into the grave. He beats me down with Snapcaster and Clique.

Game 3: I don't play as aggressively in this game as I could have. He ends up Surgical Extracting the 2 Creatures I put into the grave and I end up losing to Jace and Snapcaster beats. The thing about this game that boggled me a little bit is that he didn't Surgical in response to a reanimation spell, but just did it during the end step the first time and the second time I believe he did it during my cleanup step because I had to discard due to hand size, and after having looked it up he did an illegal play. Granted he could have done it on his own turn and the game wouldn't have been any different, but it's the principle of the matter.

3-1-0

Round 5: Player with BUG (not sure if control or Team America)

Game 1: I manage to reanimate a Jin-Gitaxias turn two or three, and doesn't answer it on his turn.

Game 2: I open with a hand of Underground Sea and about three or four 1cc cards (being a Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize, and at least one Entomb) in hand while on the draw. Since all I saw him play for lands game 1 were fetches and duals, I felt safe keeping the hand. On my first turn I Thoughtseize him, making him discard a Force of Will I believe. While I was looking at his hand, I see that he's holding a Wasteland and realize that if I don't see anymore lands I was in trouble. I never saw another land.

Game 3: I open with an Underground Sea and a Bloodstained Mire this time. I would have preferred a fetch that could have gotten me any blue source and not just an Underground Sea, but I didn't want to risk getting a worse hand. My opponent opened with a Leyline of the void. I thoughtseized him on my first turn to see he has 2 Mishra's Factories and a Wasteland (I forgot what I made him discard). On his second turn he wastes my Underground Sea, tapping it for blue and playing Echoing Truth on his Leyline. After that, many turns went by before I got a second land. When I finally got a second land, I went to Exhume and he responded with a Spell Snare. he beats me down with the Factories and a Vendilion Clique.

3-2-0

Round 6: Henry with Mono-Red Sneak Attack

Game 1: He ends up mulling down to 3 while being on the draw. On his second turn he played a sol land, then played Seething Song into a Sneak Attack which I Forced. on my turn I reanimate a Jin I discarded to Careful Study.

Game 2: He plays out lands and nothing else. I reanimate Iona and call Red. After the game, he showed me a hand with Through the Breech, Sneak Attack, and some Pyroblasts.

4-2-0

I end up getting 15th place overall. Considering how I've done at the prior events, I was pleased with how well I did.

For the most part I'm also pleased with how the deck ran, but I'd like to try to put in one more land ( preferably an Island) to up the land count so I don't get shorted as much as I did. Anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking about cutting a Careful Study, though I don't really know if that would be the right move.

[rxavage]

Personally I've found 4 entomb, 3 Thoughtseize, and 3 Careful Study more than sufficient. I've started siding 2 Ancient Tomb, but haven't tested enough to be conclusive.

[bfeingersh]

My current list that I've been happy with:

8 Dudes:
2 Jin
2 Grizz
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
1 Elesh

Instants:
4 Force
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm

Sorceries:
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume
1 Show and Tell
4 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder

Other:
4 Animate Dead

17 Lands:
9 Fetches
4 U Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB:
3 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Perish
2 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce

I really think Terastodon should be getting the nod over Angel of Despair. Going T2 Animate Terastodon, kill 2 of my lands (and/or 1 of yours) is so hard to beat.

[rxavage]

My current list that I've been happy with:

8 Dudes:
2 Jin
2 Grizz
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
1 Elesh

Instants:
4 Force
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm

Sorceries:
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume
1 Show and Tell
4 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder

Other:
4 Animate Dead

17 Lands:
9 Fetches
4 U Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB:
3 Show and Tell
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Perish
2 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce

I really think Terastodon should be getting the nod over Angel of Despair. Going T2 Animate Terastodon, kill 2 of my lands (and/or 1 of yours) is so hard to beat.


I dig your list, I'm running a singleton Intuition main. Weren't you running Maverick? Top8 at the Buncha Duals tourney? How would you compare your results or success with one over the other?

[bfeingersh]

I dig your list, I'm running a singleton Intuition main. Weren't you running Maverick? Top8 at the Buncha Duals tourney? How would you compare your results or success with one over the other?

I played my friend's (the guy who got T8 with bant maverick) aggro loam to a ~9th place finish at that. That weekend I lent reanimator to another friend who went to GP Indy.

I've been brewing RUG aggro loam since then, but didn't break it out at SCGRI because I got scared of combo :(

[Mirrislegend]

I do not play reanimator. But I've played against the local reanimator player a lot. I naturally understand why most of the monsters are 1-ofs, and I understand (and am highly amused by) the reason Jin is a 2-of. What I'm wondering is why don't people play more Gristlebrand? He is amazing and, coming from the other side of the board, terrifying. I cannot see any reason to not be playing multiple of him.

[Sturtzilla]

What I'm wondering is why don't people play more Gristlebrand? He is amazing and, coming from the other side of the board, terrifying. I cannot see any reason to not be playing multiple of him.

Honestly, that is likely due to the fact that Griselbrand is a relatively new toy for this deck. Also many places don't have weekly Legacy. Both of these would make it difficult to gauge how good he is. As a long time Reanimator affectionado and relatively decent pilot, I would say that he is one of the best generic targets. More specifically that if you are not sure what your opponent is playing, he would be a good option.

This has probably already been done, but lets dissect his abilities. He is a 7/7 for 8 mana. Therefore, he puts on a three turn clock. Moreover, if he is removed by a StP, you are up a decent amount of life (and if you Reanimated him you are only down 1 [this seems like a big upgrade over a blind Jin]). He flies and has lifelink. Evasion is always good and lifelink can be used to put you out of harm's reach or at a safe life total to go all Yawgmoth's Bargain on someone's ass. I am of the opinion that he is the real deal. Anyone else have any testing done with him?

[Borealis]

BFeingersh is running a 2/2 split on Jin/Grizz. I'm sure other people will catch on and follow suit as well. Still, you want access to both since Jin just shuts down a lot of decks (combo) if they don't answer him on their next turn.

[rxavage]

BFeingersh is running a 2/2 split on Jin/Grizz. I'm sure other people will catch on and follow suit as well. Still, you want access to both since Jin just shuts down a lot of decks (combo) if they don't answer him on their next turn.


I'm running the 2/2 split also. Jin is better with protection and in the earlier turns. Gris Has never let me down anytime I've cast him. Both have screwed me with their draw7 but its bound to happen from time to time.

Here is my list:


CREATURES 9
2 Jin-gitaxias
2 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn
1 Massacre Wurm

INSTANTS 18
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Daze
2 Flusterstorm
4 Entomb
1 Intuition

SORCERIES 15
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Ponder

ENCHANMENTS 2
2 Animate Dead

LANDS 16
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
4 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell pierce
2 Duress
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona
2 Ancient Tomb

[hofzge]

I played in a local 10 person tournament to a 3-0-1 finish with this:

2 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Blazing Archon
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
3 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 3 Echoing Truth
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1 Terastodon


I played
2-0 against a BRW Zombies Deck similar to the Deck Sam Black has recently suggested, 2-0 against UW Stoneblade,
2-0 against TES
and drew the finals against RUG Delver (I lost to it 1-2 when we played for fun).


This list is very similar to what egosum suggested and Griselbrand really makes this archetype shine again. He is IMHO the best reanimation target and is a lot better tah Jin-Gitaxias due to his lifelink and big body.

One big problem Jin has is his frailty and that sometimes you reanimate him and gain nothing of it. This has all but changed with Griselbrand. I would even argue that he is nearly as good against combo as Jin-Gitaxias, as you just draw 14 cards and counter every relevant spell they play for the rest of the game.

Also I really liked the red splash as the cost for it is very low and the benefit of running additional Careful Studies, as well as cards that "cantrip" (I know they don't) in the sideboarded games is really big.

[Final Fortune]

I do not play reanimator. But I've played against the local reanimator player a lot. I naturally understand why most of the monsters are 1-ofs, and I understand (and am highly amused by) the reason Jin is a 2-of. What I'm wondering is why don't people play more Gristlebrand? He is amazing and, coming from the other side of the board, terrifying. I cannot see any reason to not be playing multiple of him.

He's pretty much the only creature you always want to reanimate, just play 4 and laugh at all the guys who get their Jin Gitaxis STPed without drawing 7 cards for their trouble.

If you need a rough list,

4xGriselbrand
1xIona, Shield of Emeria
1xElesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1xTerrastadon
4xForce of Will
4xDaze
4xSpell Pierce
4xBrainstorm
4xCareful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4xEntomb
4xExhume
4xReanimate
8xFetchlands
3xUnderground Sea
1xVolcanic Island
1xBadlands
1xIsland
1xSwamp

Spell Pierce can feel a bit odd compared to Duress but you need your disruption to be more U oriented to support Force of Will and protect a resolved Griselbrand. I'd also highly consider Flusterstorm instead of or in addition to Spell Pierce in the MD or out of the SB respectively.

[JDK]

Here is my list:


CREATURES 9
2 Jin-gitaxias
2 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn
1 Massacre Wurm

INSTANTS 18
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Daze
2 Flusterstorm
4 Entomb
1 Intuition

SORCERIES 15
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Ponder

ENCHANMENTS 2
2 Animate Dead

LANDS 16
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
4 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell pierce
2 Duress
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Angel of Destruction
1 Iona
2 Ancient Tomb


Are you serious?

[egosum]

I m glad you enjoyed the list, I guess the monster selection (main/side) was according to your metagame. Hope we can hear more impressions of your testing with the version of the deck.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-