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TheLion
07-23-2008, 03:41 AM
one thing i do see though is massive MASSIVE graveyard hate coming from every color, it used to be only black we had to be careful with but now its every freaking color. its just funny.

hm... concrete samples? I only can think about Wheel of Sun and Moon for G/W.
But for R/U ?

Jaiminho
07-23-2008, 01:12 PM
hm... concrete samples? I only can think about Wheel of Sun and Moon for G/W.
But for R/U ?

Well, Faerie Macabre can be in every color. Survival and Imperial Painter use that.

rodgon666
07-23-2008, 01:22 PM
hahaha well maybe not every color, but now we have to look out for alot more than just leyline and planar void.

wow, its always an argument with the people here. damn.

rleader
07-23-2008, 01:28 PM
Well, Faerie Macabre can be in every color.

I love it, it's especially nice for combatting Ill Gotten Gains.

Pltnmngl
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Theres always an argument because people aren't use to seeing a deck without a stiflenaught or a goyf in it

You forgot about Counterbalance/Top. :tongue:

Anyway, Rod is right that there's only more hate going around in every color now. No more creatures to make a big deal about now...

georgjorge
08-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Want a reason?

Plain and simple preference.

2 different decks, 2 different strategies which are waaaaaay different to be even compared, ive been beat by it and ive beat it as well. but no real reason to compare them, it depends on what type of deck you like, and prefer.


simple enough for ya???


Ok, to sum up the argument really simple: This deck is similar to Breakfast, Dredge, and maybe Loam control in that it will often lose to Crypt, Extirpate, and especially Leyline. But if you have a deck that loses to these cards, you might as well play one that is at least the most powerful if those hosers don't show up, i.e. Dredge, which is just amazing and very hard to stop if the hosers don't show up.

thefreakaccident
08-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Saying that 'threshold players' don't understand the deck is just not the way to go you guys... I used to play against this deck quite frequently, and I
play threshthreshthresh all the time...

They just don't ever see this deck IRL, and are curious as to why it should be played over other already proven decks... You guys also have to admit that the deck does look like jank on paper, which is not an insult to anyone here or the deck itself, just that it looks odd on paper (lots of cards that see no play except within this deck)...


That being said, perhaps you guys could put some serious MU percentages against some of the teir decks... numbers like that ought to get this deck some attention :wink: .


Hopefully this helps.

Hanni
08-03-2008, 11:43 PM
any other thresh players want to say something...?

This isn't burn, you don't have the same inevitability, and you still fold to Counterbalance.

So you run fatties. You spend huge investments in not only the total amount of cards required but also the amount of mana spent to drop fatties. Threshold spends 2 mana to drop a fatty.

Not counting Counterbalance (and don't argue that Counterbalance doesn't pwn you), you are dependant on resolving discard outlets AND reanimation targets. Threshold has a ton of answers to both of those enablers and easily races with Geese/Goyf(s). Not only that, you don't even run removal while Threshold does.

You have inevitability? By the time you resolve a 6/6, which you're hoping wins you the game, Thresh has already killed you with a 4/5.

You run no disruption and are just hoping that you eventually push through something large. Do you think that actually matters against a couple of Goyfs?

T is for TOOL
08-04-2008, 12:44 PM
Looks like this thread has been unmonitored for far too long. Locked for the time being while I remove some of the crap.
-TOOL

Nihil Credo
09-05-2008, 07:37 AM
Thread re-opened to give a place for fresh blood to post in. a va sans dire, don't make it devolve again.

nodahero
09-05-2008, 01:08 PM
With yet another year of college back in swing it is time I start picking up where I left off last year. I primarily played Fetchland Tendrils last year to consistent top 2 finishes although after my more then dismal showing with Tendrils at the Prelims for worlds I had audibeld back into this and thresh as my two consistent play decks.

I was wondering if we could get a skeleton of a very "generic" list to build off of. It seems like we had previously gotten locked into certain molds that according to some people were not to be broken but that thought process merely stifles any opportunities for advancement of this deck and I am personally willing to put a fair amount of testing into any REASONABLE suggestion. If you want me to test anything out of the extreme ordinary such umm... Archon of Justice I will require a good explanation as to why (his ability triggers on leaves play).

If anyone even wants to make suggestions I encourage this as well. This deck is so fun and close to be on par with at least tier 2 that I think it is foolish to give up.

jakolhops
09-05-2008, 03:35 PM
Hello all this is my first post on MTG Source so dont be too harsh. :)

I have been lurking these forums a while now and seen many of the top decks and DTB.

I love playing reanimator because not only do i have the cards for real tournament play, i also love the aspect of having any creature that you like to play with be able to hit play and eat face.

My Reanimator build currently. That i hope to test against decks in Michigan (Been looking for tournaments and have found a few so i will post again to the success of the deck)

The Decklist

Re-animation
4 Reanimate
3 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

Discord outlets

4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
2 Buried Alive

4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
2 hymn to Tourach

The BEATS
2 Angel of Despair
2 Phantom Nishoba
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan

Lands (22)
4 wasteland
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground River
1 city of brass
1 Island
8 Swamps


SideBoard (what i think i might have trouble With)
4 Chill
2 Arcane Labratoy
2 Engineered Plague
3 tormods crypt
4 echoing Truth



Reasing-

for the reanimation spells:
They are the best 3 spells in the game 10 of them might not be enough but with some draw in the deck you will usually see at least 2 in the early game.

For the Outlets:
The imp is pure amazing with dark ritual
Careful study is a nice draw and a nice way to get thresh and a nice way to put beats in the GY. (better then braistorm in the deck imo)

reasoing for the randoms-
Dark ritual- SPEED SPEED SPEEEEEEED
Duress- Solid discard spell, keeps ur life up.(thoughtsieze would probably be 300x better)
Hym- Random might = a free tarmo or something else.

The BEasts
-angel of despair- Destroy anything and a 5/5 flyer?? sounds good.
-phantom nishoba- PURE beatstick, hard to kill for some decks
-Spirit of hte night- For fast damage(akroma would be an upgrade in some cases)
-tyrant- early game with plently of spells means you should win easly
-sundering titan- can ruin an opponents mana base making it hard for them to catch up
-platnum angel- Defeats TES pretty much unless they maindeck a bounce, even then its nice against agro too.

Lands-
-collosium-Great land really usefull in the late game
-wasteland- Nuff Said

This Version of Reanimator is really ment to stall ur opponent in many cases be disrupting they mana base, while beatsticking them for at least 5 a turn.
With a nice hand this deck can be quick and suffeciant

Anyone with improvments let me know i am new here so i am open to suggestion.



-Edit-
The sideboard is for anti hate with echoing truth (although i might put in chain of vapot too 2? 3?)
EP against anything that i feel it is strong against, including perhaps belcher as it kills the emtpy the warrens goblins
Arcane Lab is pretty nice against any combo
Chill is self explanatroy
Tormods crypt againt w/e u feel necesary
-matt


-Edit-

The Lack of duels and fetches and thoughtsieze are for budget reasons. In a MWS deck i would have a similar mana base but with fetches duels and thoughtsieze. Along with Akroma.

nodahero
09-06-2008, 03:07 AM
So I have been thinking about this deck for the better part of the day (since my girl friend isn't here) and have a few questions.

First: Why City of Brass and Gemstones? Are you planning on hard casting your fatties?
Second: Why no fetches or real duels? Fetches and duels increase consistency and typical cost less life then using pains.
Third: Were some of your card choices based off of budgetary reasons? You mentioned that Akroma as an upgrade to the Spirit and was wondering why you do not run here instead?

Something I noticed about your list that disagrees with your proposed plan is your mana denial route. I hardly consider 4 wastes and 2 Hymms as mana denial. I do however feel you may be on to something with the idea of proactive control. It seems like it may be a valuable asset should we actually cut the D-Rits and go for a longer game plan where we merely protect our fatty there by reducing the need for reanimation spells.

Benie Bederios
09-06-2008, 07:13 AM
Ok, I have a list myself, mostly as made as a joke, but it shines another light on the deck.

I though, why would I play bad reanimator targets... The only good ones in my opinion are Akroma( although it can't be returned with Animate Dead), Bogarden Hellkite and Tidespout Tyrant( yes that one).

Next to that I looked into the deck made by A Legend I believed called The Polar Express( it was actually Dancing Ghoul.)

Anyway combining those lists with regular Reanimator I came to the next decklist.

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Tidespout Tyrant

4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
2 Repeal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Force of Will

The manabase is quite poor, Probably needs more blue like -1 Swamp -1 MIre +1 Strand +1 Island or something.

I used minimzed the reanimator targets, reanimator spells and the cards to dump cards in the yard, for cantrips and control. Tidespout Tyrant is the best creature to bring back in the early turns. It can easily lock down a player. Akroma just beats and blocks lightning fast. Force of Will and Thoughtseize are the best control cards around. I'm not sure about repeal... I had one fun move with it to lock down a player, by playing Petal, bouncing it and playing it again, but it's quite expensive for bouncing permanents and can't bounce Chalice for 1.

BB

jakolhops
09-06-2008, 11:01 AM
@nodahero
the sundering titan and the angel of despairs can be used on the first or 2nd turn to destroy a basic or any land of my choice. Combined with wasteland it can shut down an opponents mana base. Along with a first or second turn tidlespout tyrant can just be used for land removal and race them for life.
I havent tested anything besides dark ritual but i am open to suggestion of someone thinks that dark ritual doesnt belong in the deck. But a first turn P.IMP (lol) along with a fatty and a reanimator spell is sometimes lights out against aggro, burn, and can race other decks just as fast especially if its a nishoba, the life gain is huge against things even like trendils.

Again im trying to offer ideas as well as critique on my own style of deck.
I am willing to improve this version or go a different route, this was just my proposed plan. I beilvei that this deck can be used and can win tourny's with the right combination of cards. The mana base is so cheap that everything that is needed only cost 1-2 lands in every version, except colorfull things liek buried alive and intuition.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-06-2008, 03:03 PM
Hello all this is my first post on MTG Source so dont be too harsh. :)

Alright dude, why only 3 exhumes, 2cc for any creature in the game and you only MB 3?

2nd, why buried alive? if your splashing blue might as well roll with inutition, that can get you any 1 card you want/need

C)
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground River
1 city of brass

Why do you have those? I assume its cause you cant get sea's, in which case thats ok, but if you can get seas and your running those, wtf?

4. Cephalid Coliseum
When playing reanimate the game shouldn't go past turn 4, unless they sword a fattie.

Well, thats aboot it for now, sorry if it seems harsh

jakolhops
09-06-2008, 03:20 PM
the lands are for the fact i dont want to get seas and filters and the deck doesnt Need them, although i know they are much better then what i am using. I have thought about intuition greatly and i think it should go in buried alives spot in the deck.

Mayk0l
09-06-2008, 06:36 PM
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Tidespout Tyrant


I get where you're going with the Tyrant, and its uses against Staxx and Propaghandaish decks, but do you think it's really necessary? When you're running cards like Thoughtseize to fight off cards like Propaghanda and Ghostly Prison (and whatever permanent you might find troublesome), I'd think that you'd want to focus on winning faster instead of cleaning the board.
Wouldn't you rather have something with protection from STP? I don't understand why a deck like this wouldn't use the awesome power of the SSS.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-06-2008, 07:28 PM
I get where you're going with the Tyrant, and its uses against Staxx and Propaghandaish decks, but do you think it's really necessary? When you're running cards like Thoughtseize to fight off cards like Propaghanda and Ghostly Prison (and whatever permanent you might find troublesome), I'd think that you'd want to focus on winning faster instead of cleaning the board.
Wouldn't you rather have something with protection from STP? I don't understand why a deck like this wouldn't use the awesome power of the SSS.

Couldn't you respond to a stp with a brainstorm and bounce back the tyrant if you really needed to?

I dont see why you would want them though, they only draw out the game. Odds are more than 2 fatties wont hit the board, so anyone you do get out needs to be a wincon

Mayk0l
09-06-2008, 10:50 PM
Couldn't you respond to a stp with a brainstorm and bounce back the tyrant if you really needed to?



Well yeah, you could, but that beats the point of the deck doesn't it? The Tyrant in your hand has to go back into the graveyard and then back into play. All those steps take time and can easily be disrupted. I'd assume once you got a fatty down, you'd want to win.

raharu
09-07-2008, 12:16 AM
Is there any real reason to run Akroma (either color) over SSS? SSS it's just an unstopable beating, whereas it's easier to kill both of the Akromas, and the commonly played white Akroma dies to the most prevalent removal in the game.

nodahero
09-07-2008, 12:53 AM
I have been thinking about the Tyrant question alot and to a lesser extent the Akroma argument. It seems like Tyrant is highly abnormal for this deck with the way it is designed to win but what if.... what if instead of running exhume we run animate dead and dance of the dead... then all we have to do is bounce the echanment when they try to off the tyrant... it essentially turns all of our spells into avoid fates...

As for the Akroma question I would say it is a meta call. If you see alot of white then by all means switch for SSS however if you do not then Akroma is better. She can survive more then SSS and has haste...

Let it be known that if we went with the tyrant idea there would be some serius retooling needed. Although I just realized that with that version you could really abuse certain critters like B-Kite and Sundering...

Jaiminho
09-07-2008, 12:59 AM
I have been thinking about the Tyrant question alot and to a lesser extent the Akroma argument. It seems like Tyrant is highly abnormal for this deck with the way it is designed to win but what if.... what if instead of running exhume we run animate dead and dance of the dead... then all we have to do is bounce the echanment when they try to off the tyrant... it essentially turns all of our spells into avoid fates...

Except that you lose at least a turn doing that. Run SSS already.

nodahero
09-07-2008, 01:02 AM
As I said the list would have to be seriusly retooled... possibly even an entirely new deck. I was more refering to merely the Tyrant being reanimated... not automatically in this deck. You could run it in some rather off kilter trinket box deck for even more annoying games. let it be noted that I didn't suggest it just that it is a theoretical possibility.

Mayk0l
09-07-2008, 08:56 AM
If you'd run the deck that way, you'd not be able to run Akroma, Angel of Wrath, because she has pro-black. Seems like a big sacrifice, although you could replace her with SSS

Benie Bederios
09-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I get where you're going with the Tyrant, and its uses against Staxx and Propaghandaish decks, but do you think it's really necessary? When you're running cards like Thoughtseize to fight off cards like Propaghanda and Ghostly Prison (and whatever permanent you might find troublesome), I'd think that you'd want to focus on winning faster instead of cleaning the board.
Wouldn't you rather have something with protection from STP? I don't understand why a deck like this wouldn't use the awesome power of the SSS.

Well the power of a Tyrant is that it can effect the board state. If you have a slow start and your opponent gets some beats, a Tyrant can come in and bounce your opponent's board and keep them on one land. That's why my list plays Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Ponder, Thoughtseize and Repeal. Older versions also played Cunning Wish>Brain Freeze just like Vintage Oath decks, but that was to clunky without real moxen and such.

Anyway the list isn't the most optimal Reanimator list I just wanted to create a list, without the Toolbox and alot of 1-off's with only 4 cards to fetch them.

I don't like SSS to much in a deck, that can defend its creature pre-board. Post board it is nice to have against decks that can bring in alot against creatures.

BB

raharu
09-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Well the power of a Tyrant is that it can effect the board state. If you have a slow start and your opponent gets some beats, a Tyrant can come in and bounce your opponent's board and keep them on one land.

Or you could drop a Hellkite and sweep their board, or, you know, just fucking KILL THEM ALREADY. Also, a flying, trampling 6/6 has an absurd board presence, i.e. it can affect the board state by just being there. Nothing special, just it's colossal size and infuriating resilience. ofc, if you would rather play cute tricks I presume to each his own.


I don't like SSS to much in a deck, that can defend its creature pre-board. Post board it is nice to have against decks that can bring in alot against creatures.

BB

What deck actually bring in creature hate post board? Most, if not all decks, play all their removal in the MD. On that note, why wouldn't you want to play SSS? It's incredibly resilient (shroud > Pro: red + black), only a turn slower, can be returned with all of your reanimation spells, and just generally eats most decks because they can't remove is short of a WoG. On that note, if someone WoG's a board consisting of SSS, I'd laugh.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-09-2008, 12:07 AM
I had that happen to me (Turn 5) but i had 2 exhumes in hand :confused:

Mr Wiggl3s
09-09-2008, 12:58 AM
Alright, can anyone tell me a possible weakness for this deck? I haven't extensively tested it yet, but im thinking its a decent set-up


// Lands
5 [4E] Swamp (2)
1 [UG] Island

4 [U] Underground Sea
2 [6E] Underground River

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

2 [DS] Sundering Titan
4 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
4 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [6E] Mystical Tutor

4 [FNM] Reanimate
1 [U] Animate Dead

4 [US] Exhume
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth

Pulp_Fiction
09-09-2008, 01:53 AM
I am curious, have there been any new and exciting updates to this deck? I have looked back in the threads and I haven't read anything about Hellkite Overlord, that card is phenomenal, should it be included in this deck?

@rodgon666: Has you decklist changed at all since your last post?

The Rack
09-09-2008, 02:08 AM
Tidespout Tyrant: I think this card is just a toy. It is a total win more card, you could bounce your own guys and protect them but then you have a fatty in your hand. I never liked Tyrant in this deck.

Hellkite Overlord: He's big and does a lot of damage fast but just like every other creature dies to StP. He is rarelt faster than an Akroma assuming your opponent hasn't fetched or been hit by Putrid Imp. 6+6+6+6=24 8+8+8=24, he's a turn faster but that is conditional.

rodgon666: He hasn't showed up to our local tourney in months so I'm assuming he's taking a hiatus as he still has Team Funks Underground Seas. Not happy about that. Rod will prolly toy with Overlord but end up keeping it the same.

Mrwiggles: I would replace the 3 Mystical Tutors for Intuition usually Intuition for 3 Bogardan Hellkites is usually GG and I would rarely want to Mystical Tutor for a reanimate. Intuition is more dynamic.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-09-2008, 01:23 PM
Tidespout Tyrant: I think this card is just a toy. It is a total win more card, you could bounce your own guys and protect them but then you have a fatty in your hand. I never liked Tyrant in this deck.

Hellkite Overlord: He's big and does a lot of damage fast but just like every other creature dies to StP. He is rarelt faster than an Akroma assuming your opponent hasn't fetched or been hit by Putrid Imp. 6+6+6+6=24 8+8+8=24, he's a turn faster but that is conditional.

rodgon666: He hasn't showed up to our local tourney in months so I'm assuming he's taking a hiatus as he still has Team Funks Underground Seas. Not happy about that. Rod will prolly toy with Overlord but end up keeping it the same.

Mrwiggles: I would replace the 3 Mystical Tutors for Intuition usually Intuition for 3 Bogardan Hellkites is usually GG and I would rarely want to Mystical Tutor for a reanimate. Intuition is more dynamic.

Ya but intuition is alot slower. I use to always run it in this deck and i never once used it.

The only problem this deck has is gettin a big creature out turn 2. Hopefully adding in a fetch as well as milling the deck will speed up the process

The Rack
09-09-2008, 06:07 PM
Well if you're planning on getting a turn 2 fatty you're going to have to go about it as a combo deck. What's the percentage of getting a creature and discard outlet in your hand while getting two mana? That's 4 cards you need out of 8 with no mulls. I don't really feel like getting into percentages but the deck wasn't to deal with that. It wants to be an aggro deck that can occasionally combo off. I prefer the latter any day.

chado
09-10-2008, 02:19 PM
I'm newbie at The Source, and I'm french so be patient ;-)

I was waiting for this thead to reopen because I'm testing my own list since 2 months, and I based my build on your notes.

my list :

// Lands : 19
5 [4E] Swamp
5 [UG] Island

4 [u] Underground Sea

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures : 16
2 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

2 [ons] Akroma, angel of wrath
2 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
2 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
4 [SHM] Woodfall Primus

// Spells : 25
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [jgt] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Ponder

4 [FNM] Reanimate
3 [u] Animate Dead
4 [US] Exhume

// Sideboard : 13 +2
SB: 1 [jgt]Nishoba Phantom
SB: 1 [ds] Sundering titan
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 (? ? ? ? ?)

I consistantly put a turn 3 "steak".
I just want to enlight the main difference in my list, compared to previous ones:
WOODFALL PRIMUS
CABAL THERAPY

imo, Primus is the best thing in this deck, it's amazing in legacy and combined with cabal it's awsome.

Also Cabal is now pretty good main deck, because so many opponents play Tarmogoyf ... reanimate an opponent's goyf is pretty nice.

Chado

Mr Wiggl3s
09-10-2008, 03:22 PM
It's cool that you added in primus but you HAVE to run 4x SSS and Hellkites, because (more or less) when you get one out its a auto wincon

nodahero
09-10-2008, 03:46 PM
@ Wiggles: I really disagree with that Wiggles... (I am the guy you tested with over MWS that thought you were a sourcer FYI) I Would personally run SSS in the board for game two and only IF your opponent is playing white. Otherwise Akroma is alot more influential on the game state then SSS. Also I would recomend 2 or 3 Hellkites main decked unless your meta is overrun with decks like Goblins or Affinity. It is in those two matchups where the power of Hellkite shines. The 2 or 3 is dependent on the meta and if you run Intuition in the deck or not and also if how many Phantom Nishobas you run (A personal favorite in this deck).

@ Chado: I was wondering about your use of the Primus. What function do you typically see it performing? With its inability to off creatures I fail to see any real benefit. If you want the targeted destruction I'd opt for AOD... If you want the multiple land destroys I'd opt for titan and if you want the persist why not (NO joke) run thunderblust (I think that is the red dudes name).

chado
09-10-2008, 03:47 PM
about big game faties :

Akroma : very good vs agro (gobs, sligh, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh noW, etc.), not afraid of Terminate
Hellkite : poor vs control and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
SSS : control killer
Primus : very good in all cases, doesn't die on Warren Weirding / diabolic edict effects

Primus can persist and ruin opponent's strategy thanks to it's comeintoplay ability (chalice, lands, vial, top, counterbalance, etc.).
Primus is versatile, and can combine with Cabal for quasi-autowins.

All listed beaters of this entire thread are very good, but in the end, it's a metagame choice : example , not much StP are played in my local meta, so SSS is only in *2.

raharu
09-10-2008, 07:25 PM
In case no-one has noticed SSS is essentially the best creature in the deck. People keep trying to insinuate that it's a metagame call and that Akroma is better 85% of the time, but it's more like 30%. Handling Akroma might be somewhat difficut, but handling SSS is not going to happen ever. If you're going to imply that agro or agro-control is going to race a 6/6, I somewhat doubt it. Is it possible with Tarmogoyf in the format? Yeah. Is it going to happen often? No. Also, with Repeals (which I find really strong) you have a much easier time dealing with said racing, and SSS's shroud means that they won't be bouncing/ removing it... ever.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-10-2008, 08:11 PM
Yea, i mean the only way your going to get SSS off the board is WoG, Damnation or Chainers (obviously those arent the only ways but the more common)

The way people are going to use WoG and Damnation are from wishes so you know its coming, and chainers is usually useless with an imp or oonas on the board

Your only going to see a goyf get to a 5/6 each match so it kills then lives

Akroma still cant be targeted by animate dead, so your only chance is exhume and reanimate. Usually when you reanimate a akroma the first that that happens is STP and thats with every meta.

How is akroma good against gobs (white splash in my meta = STP), thresh = auto STP or counter in every case i dont even know how you would mention that.

I mean, we've been arguing this for many pages now, and everyone is just saying how akroma is the only chance this deck has, and that's just plain wrong. Arkoma doesn't even really have a place in this deck anymore. But, if people are running it and winning, more power to you whatever works

moseby
09-10-2008, 10:18 PM
I have been a huge reanimator fan for years. Nothing makes me giggle more then dropping an early fatty and watching it tear ass.

I was at a small legacy tourney last weekend (4 rounds) where I finished third, I ran rod's list except I was missing the 3rd titan and put Garza Zol in its place, and therapies in place of defence grids. I want to preface this that every deck I played was max 2 colours (Yes I'm Canadian), so titan was tremendously disappointing

Match 1 opposition with wizards

Game 1: I get a turn 2 SSS and ride it all the way

Game 2: Turn 1 him I forget
me, turn 1 imp, pitch a SSS,
turn 2 him, he taps out for some blue wizzy, On my turn I pitch a thepery to imp, sac it name force, and wiff, he has no counter magic, exhume another SSS FTW. He had sided in wogs but he wiffed on digging for one.


Match 2 Eva green
Game 1 drops an SSS turn 2 and ride it.
Game 2 He mulls to 5 with 1 land. I keep my 7
Turn 1 is swamp, rit, Hymn get get a land and an exhume. I am thankfull as I have another exhume in hand (no fatty unfortunately) but 3 carefull study.
I study (no fatty).
Turn 2 him nothing, me drop a prowler
Turn 3 him squat again, me pitch garza reanimate that badboy and ride it. He killed my prowler, and its a good thing he couldnt find an edict (which he sided in). The extra card drawing from it was unimpressive

Match 3: Dragon Stompy
(Here is the sad part I lend my friend this deck, and it just pillages me. Mind you it won the tourney. It went to Town on me.

Game 1: He wins the roll, 1st turn trinasphere, He then gets an quick hellbent dragon vs a animate SSS = GG

Game 2: more roshamboing he drops a second turn chalice @ 2, and I have 2 exhumes and a reanimate with a prowler, I prolly kept a hand I should not have

Match 4 Belcher
Game 1: I win the roll I get a turn 2 SSS, he goes off turn 4 ( i die)
Game 2: I mull to 5 with no stiffle but lots of dig. He goes off and kills me turn 2

As I said earlier Titan was a huge disappointment and in almost all cases a disappointment. I much would have rather scene either something to smoke chalice or a huge fatty like hellkite overlord or nishoba. Additionally braingorgers was disappointing, As rod said vs control/landstill its a champ. But vs agro/combo is a waste of cards.

Regardless of my results of this deck is still great

Mr Wiggl3s
09-10-2008, 10:54 PM
Dragon stompy all in all is a very hard matchup for this deck

I think we should discuss Hellkite Overlord

8/8 flying trample haste for 8? Is this an auto 4-of?

raharu
09-10-2008, 11:12 PM
Dragon stompy all in all is a very hard matchup for this deck

I think we should discuss Hellkite Overlord

8/8 flying trample haste for 8? Is this an auto 4-of?
LOLWAT? Why wouldn't you be playing Akroma in those slots?

EDIT: nvm. +2/+2 is kinda relevant... ofc, it's still less resilient than Akroma. ofc, regeneration... which isn't < Swords, but... iDunno.

chado
09-11-2008, 09:48 AM
In case no-one has noticed SSS is essentially the best creature in the deck. People keep trying to insinuate that it's a metagame call and that Akroma is better 85% of the time, but it's more like 30%. Handling Akroma might be somewhat difficut, but handling SSS is not going to happen ever. If you're going to imply that agro or agro-control is going to race a 6/6, I somewhat doubt it. Is it possible with Tarmogoyf in the format? Yeah. Is it going to happen often? No. Also, with Repeals (which I find really strong) you have a much easier time dealing with said racing, and SSS's shroud means that they won't be bouncing/ removing it... ever.

Sorry but I really think that you overestimate SSS.
You can NOT race agro and agro control with this guy, neither burn or combo.

you have said it : only better vs StP's decks and bounces, not so many decks...

About Bogardan Hellkite :
sry but its "only" a 5/5, and with Tombstalker in the area, it's not anymore a win condition. and so he's red ( < BEB )

Playing four of each (SSS , BogHell) completely reduces your possibilities.

Akroma remains the Queen, mostly thanks to her vigilance ability.

I'd like you to test Primus + Cabal and have your feedback =)

thefreakaccident
09-11-2008, 10:19 AM
Sorry but I really think that you overestimate SSS.
You can NOT race agro and agro control with this guy, neither burn or combo.

you have said it : only better vs StP's decks and bounces, not so many decks...

About Bogardan Hellkite :
sry but its "only" a 5/5, and with Tombstalker in the area, it's not anymore a win condition. and so he's red ( < BEB )

Playing four of each (SSS , BogHell) completely reduces your possibilities.

Akroma remains the Queen, mostly thanks to her vigilance ability.

I'd like you to test Primus + Cabal and have your feedback =)




Hellkite guarantees 5 damage, he doesn't have to turn sideways.

A turn two SSS is just as terrifying as an akroma, except it cannot be hit by swords...


Will people honestly be boarding in bebs against this deck? Seriously now.

moseby
09-11-2008, 12:35 PM
SSS is a beast and should a 4 of MD. He doesn't get wheat'd or bounced or mazed. Lets face it the only thing that kills him is a bigger fatty, WOG, or an Edit w/o an imp or prowler out.

My thought is what to do in place of the brain gorgers and Titans. Woodfall Primus does seem very interesting with persist. Of course the other option is Hellkite Overlord, hasty trampling firebreathing regen is freeking crazy.

BTW when if overlord legal?

chado
09-11-2008, 01:57 PM
You guys stay blocked on " Turn 2 SSS : yummy ".

Frankly, what do you need in other cases ?
I mean in the real life when you can lose the toss, be countered, be in danger, etc.

let's take a look to the Decks to Beat of this forum :

LandStill
GoyfSligh
AggroLoam
VialGobs
DreadStill
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
Imperial Painter

I'd like to add BridgeChorid's deck to this list

Decks using Tarmogoyf and other big threats (steak or blasts), so they can race our brave SSS :
DreadStill
GoyfSligh
AggroLoam
VialGobs (say "hello" to PileD)

agro-combo, they can start comboing before receiving 3 beats :
BridgeChorid
Imperial Painter

MatchUp where SSS is really good :
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
LandStill

I just want to convince you that 4-of SSS or BogHell is a mistake.

just for fun :
3 BogHell
3 SSS
3 Primus
1 Akroma

please try this lineup.

Jaiminho
09-11-2008, 03:35 PM
I just want to convince you that 4-of SSS or BogHell is a mistake.

Care to post your arguments?

chado
09-11-2008, 05:10 PM
From my previous post :

You can NOT race agro and agro control with this guy, neither burn or combo.

you have said it : only better vs StP's decks and bounces, not so many decks...

About Bogardan Hellkite :
sry but its "only" a 5/5, and with Tombstalker in the area, it's not anymore a win condition. and so he's red ( < BEB )

Playing four of each (SSS , BogHell) completely reduces your possibilities.

@all ,
I'm curious : vs wich decks do you test ? I can't understand your "4-of SSS or BogHell " thing

Dark_Cynic87
09-11-2008, 05:11 PM
I think the Overlord deserves a slot. It's not as protected as Akroma, but it rapes. Flying, FS, Trample? Ghaf. FS seems a tad irrelevant, but trample certainly doesn't. Firebreathing is a moot point without red mana sources, but Regen isn't, however I don't see a huge reason as to why it would be necessary...

The biggest pro it has over Akroma is that you can have multiples down, althouth I don't recommend commiting that much to your board, as losing 16 life is kinda crappy to have it cleared via Damn/Wrath.

I think Green has become a relevent topic of conversation since the printing of tarmogoyf. I played it (green, not Goyf) way back in the day when the format was slightly slower so I had access to Deed (Damn wasn't printed either, and white was a LOUSY splash, always has been, always will be). Green also allows for LftL, which is relevant to a point. Also, dredging is an alternate means to getting fatties in the 'Yard. I think Ichorid would be test-worthy as well...An alternate means of winning/pushes in the last damage after a couple turns of an akroma turned StP. You have 8x-ish Creatures for sure to feed Ichy (PImp and Prowler), not to mention if you included Overlord.

There's the possibility of a recurring EE with LftL and Recurring Wastes (which *can* win you games) via Academy Ruins, letting you have a maindeck answer to DredgeIchorid, and I don't know if you use it, but I played Intuition as it's instant speed and is useful for more than Buried Alive is. If you worry about being milled by painter, every deck and it's mother is trying the 2x Gaea's Blessing SB strategy. While that sux for you, it sux worse to lose, and it gets infinitely better if you can get a fatty on the board. Also, a good point against Painter and etc. is that you run counters and blue. Blue=Stifle. Stifle is useful against a lot of stuff, and pitcheable to Force of Will.

What about Phyrexian Dreadnought? If you were to Unearth it, would it's CIP ability still trigger? I've been thinking about running a Reanimator list that was also playable as an aggro-control list. Unearth and Reanimate with little creatures like Tarmogoyf and PhyNought. Either way you can still run stifle effects with a few fatties.

Creatures--19
4x Tarmogoyf
3x 'Nought
3x Prowler
3x Wild Mongrel
2x SSS
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Eternal Witness
1x Wonder

Spells--24
3x Reanimate
3x Unearth
1x Exhume
4x Stifle
3x Intuition
1x LftL
4x Brainstorm
4x Cabal Therapy
1x EE

Land--17
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Island
1x Swamp

SB:
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Sundering Titan
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Krosan Grip
2x Echoing Truth
3x Aether Vial (Control Matchups where you can go into a more aggro list)

Why don't traditional builds run FoW? I don't get it. I see lots of blue spells in your list, and FoW would be good.

Anyway, the above list isn't optimal, of course. I'd like Duress/Thoughtseize somewhere in it...

The idea is obviously to go beats without EVER reanimating, but still having the option. Another great thing about this list is the ability to hardcast every single one of your creatures. Reanimate can grab out of your opponent's GY also, getting you options like their goyfs as well. Stifle is there for both your 'Nought, you can steal theirs, OR stifle their Deed since you run more little creatures than normal. Stifle helps against Painter, but I'd like to get a set of smothers in here. Smother is awesome in that you can kill their Goyf and then steal it. Same with their Sea Drake or anything else for that matter. Extirpate is an option in place of Crypts. In fact, I might even recommend it over Crypt. Extirpate screws dredge to going Ichorid Beatz (by hitting their Bridges) or even better by dropping a discard creature, discard your Therapy and hitting their bridges bye-bye plus nailing their blue spells or their LEDs. Then, you can hit their ichorids with your Extirpate. The only thing then to be scared of is a DR'ed Troll, which I have to admit is scary. I don't know how to get rid of it other than Reanimating a Primus. Then you can Persist it via a Therapy. The biggest problem I see is that your own Prowler gives them a discard outlet, and that sux. Or you could Reanimate one of their Grave-Trolls and chump-block with it while pounding with a Goyf. Yours won't be as big as theirs, but it gives enough time to win for you, as Grave-Troll Regenerates. Of course, if you run 3x Extirpate, you may be able to see 2, in which case you can hit Grave-Troll OR Dread Return after Ichorid.

LMK how the list looks and if it's at all viable.

Remember that Unearth cycles, so in a pinch it's a bit of CA. Not much, but a bit.

I am also a big supporter of Tombstalker as it's on-color, works well with your strategy of getting stuff into your graveyard and is difficult to kill in our metagame. A possibility in any traditional build.

Anyway, thought I'd offer my ideas. Remember, Brainstorm could I guess be Careful Study or whatnot, but I think in a build like this Discard becomes much less of a necessity. Not to mention that you already have 6 creatures to discard with and 4x Cabal Therapies, which can be used on yourself in a pinch.

I like that my list is MUCH less graveyard oriented.

Pce,

--DC

Mr Wiggl3s
09-11-2008, 05:22 PM
just for fun :
3 BogHell
3 SSS
3 Primus
1 Akroma

please try this lineup.

Once again man, a few of us have been playing this deck for a while and akroma is out

thats just the way it is

no serious list has it in it for a reason, just leave it at that.

chado
09-11-2008, 05:35 PM
What about Phyrexian Dreadnought? If you were to Unearth it, would it's CIP ability still trigger?
yes it does.


Why don't traditional builds run FoW? I don't get it. I see lots of blue spells in your list, and FoW would be good.
No room, not a part of the strategy.

btw, I like your hybrid list "agro Reanim". I'd play thoughtseize in it.

@Mr Wiggl3s : my meta seems faster than yours, so i can't resolve myself to play 4 SSS.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-11-2008, 05:55 PM
Lightning fast if you can resolve and keep in play an akroma :rolleyes:

chado
09-11-2008, 06:05 PM
I meant : "kill or be killed".

I'm used to face Tarmo Crusher/Terravor, Tarmo Stalker, Burn, Gobs, Ichorides.

Most people play more threats than removal, and they are right !

My meta is not so combo and almost nobody plays StP (and that's a good reason fro me to try Reanimator ^^ )

The Rack
09-11-2008, 10:25 PM
chado: Wouldn't you want 4 Bogardan Hellkites if your meta is full of critters. It can burn creatures too, like goblins. Iirc there was a dragon that dealt 3 damage to all creatures when it came into play? I'll look it up in a bit. If you truly believe your meta is all aggro then don't play SSS play overlord and Akroma, we'll say I told you so when you write a report and say my 2nd Turn Akroma was StPed for the game loss.

Dark_Cynic87
09-12-2008, 12:42 AM
I'd like Duress/Thoughtseize somewhere in it...




btw, I like your hybrid list "agro Reanim". I'd play thoughtseize in it.


Yeah...I know. :wink:

Help me find room. I want more input on it.

Pce,

--DC

The Rack
09-12-2008, 12:59 AM
I don't think the Nought Stifle combo should be in here because it's just pulling in too many directions, Aggro then Reanimator then a Combo finisher. I'd probably play this from your list

-3 Nought
-1 THerapy

+4 Thoughtseize

Stifle is still really good in the format so I think it would be a real surprise to see a stifle coming from a renaimator deck. It helps the combo matchup too.

raharu
09-12-2008, 01:54 AM
Iirc there was a dragon that dealt 3 damage to all creatures when it came into play?

YesSir, Thunder Dragon from Starter.


If you truly believe your meta is all aggro then don't play SSS play overlord and Akroma, we'll say I told you so when you write a report and say my 2nd Turn Akroma was StPed for the game loss.

Well, iDunno. It's just that, from playing Reanimator against various things, playing against it with a deck I figured would have a strong Reanimator MU (8 discard, 8 spot removal and 3 Edicts), and watching it roll over to threshold (CB is insane, and the lists without MD Repeal still perplex me...) makes me aware that Akroma just doesn't cut it. She doesn't and that's something that's important to cope with. She doesn't do anything when she hits the table if she's removed promptly (which is bound to happen), and isn't all that resilient. Honestly, she dodges about as much removal as Tombstalker or Mystic Enforcer. Bogardan Hellkite does 5 upon hitting the table and has a bit of versatility if you need it, and sweeps against agro, and SSS is immune to all but the least played and slowest types of removal (Edict and Wrath effects, respectively). Akroma has none of these atributes, and inasmuch isn't sufficient. If you can get away with playing it, then that's fine, but be aware that SSS and Hellkite are the optimal cards for the slots, at least in the current metagame.

Dark_Cynic87
09-12-2008, 03:09 AM
I don't think the Nought Stifle combo should be in here because it's just pulling in too many directions, Aggro then Reanimator then a Combo finisher. I'd probably play this from your list

-3 Nought
-1 THerapy

+4 Thoughtseize


And I think that you need more creatures than that in the list. Honestly, You have to have SOMETHING else besides Goyf and a few big beaters....I'd rather do this:

-1 Wonder
-1 Exhume
-1 Mongrel
-2 Therapy

+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Prowler

Wonder was a dumb idea that sucked in the 20 or so games (10 goldfish, 10 actual testing against Thresh, Goblins, Ichorid--3/3/4 respectively)--Won game one against Thresh and Goblins and won the match (lost a game to both) of both, not game 1 against Ichorid. Won 2 of the 4 against Ichorid by doing this with my SB:

-2 Crypt
+2 Extirpate

Crypt is tutorable, but Extirpate is just as good as long as you know what to hit, and the additional bonus of Stifle in the deck is good against Crypt as you Stifle it and 'Pate it.

Extirpate is also good against Combo. It's not quite as good as a full discard suite, but it *can* nail an unsuspecting combo player. You normally have to hit them when they aren't suspecting a T-Seize (i.e. when they don't have a blue open to Brainstorm what they want to keep away, and also when they have Chant or whatever they are using as protection; all in all a bad matchup, but hey, you can't win them all--I suppose something like Teeg would be acceptable to play. You could drop an Island for a Savannah or a Scrubland...or try just to reanimate it...Or play Platinum Angel...I know, this deck has been down that road before with no success--No protection + a meta full of Krosan Grips = crappy card...).

Reani-gro v. 1.2

Creatures--17
4x Tarmogoyf
3x 'Nought
4x Prowler
2x Wild Mongrel
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Eternal Witness

Spells--25
4x Reanimate
2x Unearth
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Intuition
1x LftL
1x EE

Land--17
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland/Savannah/Tundra (not sure which; check right after SB for reason for this)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Island
1x Swamp

SB:
3x Meddling Mage
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Extirpate
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip

The reason for the 1x White dual is for me trying to make room in my SB for either Teeg or for Meddling Mage, probably Mage. I dropped the Vials in favor of the Mages as they also reanimate and beat, but more importantly are also good against Combo. Most often you will name Chant as they will be aware of the Stifles in your list and will Chant before you can Stifle their Storm mechanic.

I'm not sure that the 3 reanimate targets are even entirely necessary in the board. I want to drop them and something else for a set of needles. I'd probably actually be okay with just 3x Needles. Well, shit. I just did it. Maybe the wrong call, but I find it difficult to believe that with all the creature beats I have that 2x SSS and a Woodfall Primus will not be enough. SSS is damn impossible to kill and Woodfall Primus they have to kill twice.

I'm just worried that 4x Reanimate, 4x T-Seize, and 6 Fetches are just too costly in lifeloss that I will be okay...Any thoughts? I know T-Seizes are great for making them toss critters so I can grab them, but I don't know if I'll live. Especially with no way to get life BACK. Is there a good creature besides Nishoba that gains me life? Maybe I should just put one in and always grab it...Think I will, I can always change it. Would Exalted be better than Nishoba? I don't think so, but lmk if I'm wrong...

Btw, the reason I need the white mana source is that the premise for the list was to make everything castable in a tight situation. It was to make sure that you never absolutely HAVE to get screwed over by GY hate, as it's so popular to beat Ichorid and the like.

I like reanimator, but it wasn't viable in it's traditional form in my metagame. Hell, even ICHORID runs graveyard hate. That sux. Oh, btw, I forgot, but 'Nought is good against Ichorid. You can play it for (1) and not stifle. It leaves play, they lose their bridges. Hehehehe, I forgot about that. That's funny shit.

If someone likes my build, I would ask that they give it a go at some small tournament just to see how it works for them. There's not a lot of actual tournaments around here, and I'd like to see how it competes. I'd really appreciate it, and it theoretically will do half-way decent.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Would Trygon Predator be better in the Wild Mongrel slot? I know that there's not a lot of discard enablers, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be as much of a need for it...Plus, this list just rolls to CB, and even quite a bit to Chalice. LMK what you think about all of this. My posts have been quite long, and I apologize.

chado
09-12-2008, 05:22 PM
chado: Wouldn't you want 4 Bogardan Hellkites if your meta is full of critters. It can burn creatures too, like goblins. Iirc there was a dragon that dealt 3 damage to all creatures when it came into play? I'll look it up in a bit. If you truly believe your meta is all aggro then don't play SSS play overlord and Akroma, we'll say I told you so when you write a report and say my 2nd Turn Akroma was StPed for the game loss.

Hellkite is not so good since agro loam palys B and Terminate, also Survival's decks are now playing BGH and Shriekmaw.
Plus : many deck plays Vindicate.

What I'm saying is that reanimator's player have to :
1- have unstoppable huge beaters
2- kill opponents board OR be able to attack and defend at the same time.
3- protect our baby beast

Akroma is bad when:
StP
Karakas
Can't be animated

SSS is bad when :
each time we are under pressure

BogHell is bad when :
opponent has removal
Mangoose
Tarmo are 5/6
Stalker in front
pro-red creatures

Now an interessant thing for Primus :
attacking with a 6/6 primus, then cabal him :
5/5 + destroying thing + untapped

I don't want to lose with reanimator vs AgroLoam, Rock or Survival.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-12-2008, 05:28 PM
if they kill hellkite reanimate him and do another 5 dmg? i do that all the time vs goyfs

The Rack
09-12-2008, 06:16 PM
chado, you can hellkite a tombstalker, you can burn creatures too with hellkite. I thought you said you only play against Aggro? If you don't then you should play 4 SSS, Primus is not good in reanimator. If you are looking for speed why would you get Primus? He doesn't fly but has persist which isn't really relevant to Swords. You can play what you want but how is Primus better than any untargetable creature? He is simply worse than SSS so why play a 3/3 split when you can play a 4/2 split?

chado
09-14-2008, 01:15 AM
Because thanks to Primus you have better chance to win vs combo or prison decks , and without really losing power vs other MU ...

troll: if you want to make mass damage quickly, just play burn instead of reanimator:tongue:

raharu
09-14-2008, 01:21 AM
Because thanks to Primus you have better chance to win vs combo or prison decks , and without really losing power vs other MU ...

Combo? What? Prison, I know (on occasion, not always), but combo? 4srs?


troll: if you want to make mass damage quickly, just play burn instead of reanimator:tongue:

Or, you know, have creatures with relevant CiP abilities? Honestly, the opponent can play a metric fuckton of removal, if you're playing SSS it's irrelevant, and if you're playing Bogardan Hellkite everything short of swords is easily ignored. Seriously, that has to be the most ridiculous response to a relevant rebuttal ever, or at least on this forum. Why wouldn't you play reanimator if you wanted a deck that can deal damage quickly? FFS... I can't believe it.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-14-2008, 01:31 AM
Shh his meta is so fast its running circles around you dude. I honesltly dont know if you can keep up.

/trolledness

The Rack
09-14-2008, 04:05 AM
Because thanks to Primus you have better chance to win vs combo or prison decks , and without really losing power vs other MU ...

Combo: Primus is just as slow as SSS except can be targeted by the Burnung Wish tech to kill creatures. If you are only playing primus because of the Therapy interaction then don't play Primus. It's not worth that 1 situation out of 50 when a Therapy and a 5/5 could have won you the game. BTW you will lose more often because of a StP on Primus than the other way around. Magic is about Percentages.

Prison: Stax? I guess so... I honestly would rather beat down with SSS because he is practically invincible for the first 5 or 6 turns. That's all you need anyways. They aren't going to drop Stax before turn 3 because they'd destroy their board as well. I'd say that this point isn't a great one because Reanimator wants a creature as soon as possible so late game against any control is going to be unfavorable.


troll: if you want to make mass damage quickly, just play burn instead of reanimator

Burn doesn't make mass damage quickly, it makes a lot of little damage. I wasn't intending to offend you but if someone says "My meta is so quick SSS is too slow for it", then why would Primus be any faster? WOuldn't you want Hellkites and Overlords then?

The Legacy Weapon
09-18-2008, 10:22 PM
Has anyone seen Sharuum the Hegemon from Shards of Alara? It's a 5/5 for 6 mana that can bring Sundering Titan into play with him when reanimated. This seems like another good reason to run Intuition. I'll be buying a couple of these for sure.

4815162342
09-19-2008, 02:42 PM
Sedris, the Traitor King :3: :u: :b: :r:

Legendary Creature - Human Minion Mythic Rare
Each creature card in your graveyard has unearth :2: :b: .


5/5


Um..........

So for 3 mana you get back a fatty and it has haste. I know it would be nigh impossible to make it work but wow is this a saucy card or what?

Mr Wiggl3s
09-19-2008, 04:55 PM
Is it only cmc3?

Titan is pretty much cut after hellkite overlord n such.

Mr Wiggl3s
09-22-2008, 02:23 AM
New creatures to consider?

Godsire
4rggw
Creature - Beast Mythic Rare
Vigilance
{T}: Put an 8/8 red, green, and white Beast creature token into play.
8/8

Empyrial Archangel
4gwwu
Creature - Angel Mythic Rare
Flying, shroud
All damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to Empyrial Archangel instead.
5/8

Prince of Thralls
4ubbr
Creature - Demon Mythic Rare
Whenever a permanent is put in an opponent's graveyard, return it to play under your control unless that player pays 3 life.
7/7

Hanni
09-22-2008, 03:42 AM
B/G/u Recurring Survival Reanimator

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures (17)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Putrid Imp
2 Wild Mongrel
4 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Angel of Despair
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Recurring Nightmare
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

Turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Birds of Paradise + Cabal Therapy is a powerplay. Without protection, you have a hard time resolving the cards necessary to get a fattie into play.

Wild Mongrel is a better creature than Oona's Prowler, IMO. Very rarely are you going to need a small flyer as a backup plan; against opposing aggro/control, you can't race with a Prowler, and Prowler is horrible on defense. Wild Mongrel can easily trade with opposing Mongooses and Goyfs.

Survival of the Fittest is a better discard outlet than Intuition, IMO, because it can enable Anger. It's also a card advantage engine when it needs to be, whereas Intuition is just card parity. I know that Intuition can also be a tutor for reanimation spells, though I don't think the deck needs an additional tutor for those.

Both Recurring Nightmare/Survival of the Fittest are bombs.

I figured SSS is really the only creature that needs to resolve, since it usually races everything, and is resilient. The lone Angel can blow up problematic permanents like Propaganda and Tarmogoyf.

The deck can also Tarmogoyf's, Shriekmaws, and Tombstalkers as a transformational manplan sideboard.

Illissius
09-22-2008, 01:51 PM
I think 4 SSS 4 Empyrial Archangel would be a very interesting base of reanimator targets to use.

Mirrislegend
09-22-2008, 02:08 PM
I think 4 SSS 4 Empyrial Archangel would be a very interesting base of reanimator targets to use.

Why ANY Empyrial Archangel, much less 4 of them?

Jaiminho
09-22-2008, 04:32 PM
Why ANY Empyrial Archangel, much less 4 of them?

Maybe because you get kind of pseudoinvulnerable with an evasive unremovable clock. It forces your opponent to have 2 big creatures, since a single one will never take it down by itself. It's bad for a late game reanimation target, but it seems wonderful in the early turns.

The Rack
09-22-2008, 06:18 PM
I think that the new reanimator targets are more cute than good. The deck is losing it's gameplan if it's worried about saving it's own ass. It's supposed to go for the throat. If you want to run a controlling reanimator that's a lot different than BU REanimator. I'd go with BG.

Semenelin
09-25-2008, 02:27 AM
how about Hellkite Overlord? 8/8 flying hasty trampler? me likey.

And, I haven't gone back to this thread for quite some time, so forgive me, but what has happened since the gonzalez build? this looks more like a survival variant than straight up reanimator. What happened to plain ol' B/U? not good enough anymore?

moseby
09-29-2008, 03:16 PM
Is Empyrial Archangel an effective replacement to SSS?

I would not contemplate using both in the same deck as it would reduce the speed of the deck far to much for my liking, unless someone can show me it does not.

Empyrial Archangel 5/8
4gwwu
Creature - Angel Mythic Rare
Flying, shroud
All damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to Empyrial Archangel instead.

nodahero
09-29-2008, 03:32 PM
I feel very strongly that builds running SSS would benefit significantly from cutting him and swaping in the new mythic angel (I feel dirty saying something is mythic. Are we 5 year olds playing yu-gi-oh?) Overall at the cost of 1 power you gain 2 toughness and a free Pariah effect. The loss of one power is not even highly significant. Typically SSS will kill one turn faster then the angel due to ur opponent pinging himself for 2 in some fashion although given the power of the angel I do not think that turn will matter because in theory her ability to absorb damage will buy you at least the one lost turn minimum.

The Rack
09-29-2008, 09:08 PM
The Archangel could be the next replacement but it can be easily killed from a few guys swinging in. It's not that crazy to think that a Goyf and mongoose swing and kill the angel. Personally it seems that you would lose games from it dying than you would from winning.

My 2 cents.

ssilver
10-10-2008, 02:32 AM
So I was thinking about playing reanimator, but I was wondering what decks it has bad matchups against.

Xanthophobia22
10-10-2008, 02:56 PM
On Empirical Archangel-

This is actually toe and toe with SSS for the best reanimation targets. Lets consider:

SSS- Pro swords, 4 turn clock, evasion, 7 life to reanimate
EAA- Pro swords, 4 turn clock, evasion, 8 life to reanimate, great against aggro, loses to multiple strong creatures swinging.

Look even if it dies to damage, which is so rare, it just got you the time nessecary to win the game and at least dealt 5 damage and diverted 8, +13.

Your opponent is going to have to swing with an unusually strong goyf (5/6) and a bolt to kill it... still a 1 for one and diverted 8 damage. Granted against goblins it may die fast but i think goblins is always a bad matchup and SSS would lose even faster.

I mean seriously its not even legendary...

In my opinion EAA is better and if i were to play reanimate I would run:

4 Emirical Archangel
4 Bogardian Hellkite

I shouldnt have to say why hellkite is so good...

Aggro is beat by hellkite (goblins, white weenies, ect.)
Control is beaten by angel (threshold, landstill, ect.)

WoG beats all so dont even mention it. And really WoG doesnt really beat hellkite...

moseby
10-12-2008, 01:25 AM
With the archangel in play would her ability stop the ability of goblin lackey?

Nihil Credo
10-12-2008, 08:06 AM
With the archangel in play would her ability stop the ability of goblin lackey?
Yes.

GGoober
02-04-2009, 11:52 AM
Trying to Reanimate this thread lol.

Anyone saw the new card Child of Alara?

WGRBU
Trample 6/6
When Child of Alara leaves play, destroy all non-land permanents.

Just wondering if it'll be cool to play her in a more controllish Reanimator with Recurring Nightmare.

sanmok
02-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Hi, I was just wondering if Inkwell Leviathan would be an addition to this deck.

7UU Conclux

Artifact Creature - Leviathan

Islandwalk, trample, shroud


7/11

Seems really good in a meta where there's lots of islands but since I'm a noob and haven't gone to any real tourneys, I don't know.

scrow213
02-07-2009, 02:55 PM
Hi, I was just wondering if Inkwell Leviathan would be an addition to this deck.

7UU Conclux

Artifact Creature - Leviathan

Islandwalk, trample, shroud


7/11

Seems really good in a meta where there's lots of islands but since I'm a noob and haven't gone to any real tourneys, I don't know.

I think if you can make the deck work, this is a good creature. Blue is a popular color in Legacy, and it has Shroud, which is huge.

MSC
02-07-2009, 08:21 PM
yeah, but Hurklys Recall is not unseen in Legacy... :frown:

Zach Tartell
02-07-2009, 08:49 PM
yeah, but Hurklys Recall is not unseen in Legacy... :frown:

Are you serious? I can't think of a single deck in recent years (I'd say in the last two years) that has performed well that has had even a single copy of Hurkyl's Recall in its seventy-five .

Also, if you're worried about people boarding in Hurkyl's Recall against your reanimator deck I'd say you're still probably okay.

nodahero
02-07-2009, 09:39 PM
In days gone by I was an AVID necromancer (if you will). Ink-well and Child both are extremely powerful however you must first ask yourself why would I want to run these?

The "current" reanimator suite I often see and have considered is 4 Empyrial Archangel and some combination of either Bogardan Hellkite or Hellkite Tyrant. These options were selected due to in Archangels case, the bigger backside with shroud and the built in Pariah effect. Both Hellkites were added due to the speed they give the deck. Either Hellkite COULD kill the opponent in 3 swings; although in reality Bogardan is likely 4 turns as opposed to Tyrants 3 Turns.

Prior to those targets we used a wide variety of utility options such as Phantom Nishoba aggainst aggro, Angel of Despair to kill troublesome permanents, and the ever classic Razia and Akroma for a combination of powers and speed.

The Child is by far the easiest to examine. The typical time to kill is 4 turns from entering play (assumption was they have taken 2 off fetches or something). So not a horrid kill time. Then we must consider the ability. There is two ways to view it. Either they will leave it alone because they can race it or they will solve it when it will do minimal damage to them. Arguing that it can play defense is not really an option for a reanimator deck.

Ink-Well is the most powerful option of the two due to the abundance of islands. The Ink-Well also kills in 4 turns however it does not require your opponent to have taken damage and has evasion plus trample incase your opponent is not playing islands. The only "downside" is the lack of a come into/leave play ability however such travesties did not prevent Simic Sky Swallower from being run in days gone by.

rleader
02-07-2009, 10:40 PM
Bogardan Hellkite isn't played because of speed, necessarily, but because it deals damage even if it's "dealt with."

Now, there's a critical mass of things you can't deal with, i.e. shroud:

3x SSS
4x Empyrial Archangel
4x Inkwell Leviathan

That might well be superior to the Hellkite build (who needs speed when you have inevitability due to few decks playing wraths/edicts in legacy?): I don't think anyone plays this often and competitively enough to draw a firm conclusion though.

Of the three shrouds, I think Simic Sky Swallower is a bit underrated just because it's old and boring: Empyrial is cool in that it buys you two or three turns vs. burn decks, but it almost always dies to an attacking pair of Goyf+Goose (and one of them gets to survive). I do think I like Inkwell the best (despite random obscure hate), as it can always block and nearly always kill what it blocks the turn it comes into play.

Like I said, I'm not sure what's better, speed vs. shroud, or the combination that most (non intuition+toolbox) decks have used up until now.

OTOH, without Hellkites to soak up Swords to Plowshares (making your Reanimate spells cost effectively 3 life, rather than 8) while pegging your opponent for 5, your imps and prowlers become more attractive targets for removal, which might hinder your ability to get things into the graveyard (especially when trying to play around graveyard hate).

Just on a lark, I'll throw this out there: maybe defense is fair reanimator strategy, too:

4 Platinum Angel
4 Blazing Archon
2 Spirit of the Hearth (obscure eventide card: YOU gain shroud)
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (remove one Prowler for the 2nd copy)

A lot of decks would absolutely hate to see that game one, anyway.

nodahero
02-08-2009, 01:24 PM
On the 3/4/4 list you suggested my real question to you is why the SSS what does it really do for you? Yes it is highly protected but what other value does it bring? I would much rather run the White Akroma and race then just have SSS do its thing.

As for the "defensive" suite you suggested there is one large inherit flaw... What happens when they draw one of their endless removal spells that the other suite turns into a dead draw? The answer (I think) is you likely lose.

rleader
02-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Your two statements are fairly self-contradictory (if overly dramatic in prose): If you're concerned about having threats no one can deal with, Akroma is strictly worse than SSS, which isn't exactly a chump at 6/6 even though it doesn't make jaws drop anymore.

Akroma's haste demands that she be dealt with at instant speed, and yet the most popular removal in the format is the perfect answer for doing just that (not to mention that 1/3 of your reanimation spells fail to work on her and you might not want to run multiple copies).

Having all shrouded reanimation targets does change the nature of the deck, I think ("I think," I haven't tested this just like no one else has really tested this).

The defensive deck, it's obviously not as good in an abstract sense as the speed deck (just because Hellkites get their five damage in even when zapped), but it demands removal: you have 12 reanimation spells, if they don't have more removal or can't find it fast enough, you still win (if they require the attack step or targeting you). Plus, you can randomly hose decks like Ichorid in game one. So it's at least something interesting to think about from a metagame perspective.

We're talking about a fan favorite and not a tier 1 deck, anyway.

John Rohan
03-31-2009, 06:21 PM
I couldn't resist jumping in here and reviving this thread a little. I've got a lot of ideas about reanimator. I've been playing a B/G version in tournaments and online for the last few months, but most of the concepts are very similar. See here for my earlier build:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13283

With B/G you can play Krosan Grip and Wild Mongrel. Pernicious Deed isn't bad either. But B/U has a lot of library searching cards, so you gain a little more consistency. I wouldn't recommend B/G/U, because you absolutely must draw black for it to work.

Anyway, there are a lot of cards that should be discussed here, but haven't. They may or may not be right for your deck or your meta, but are worth considering:

1) Cycling cards. I like to use a few copies of Wirewood Guardian and Twisted Abomination. Scion of Darkness isn't bad either. These aren't the strongest cards by themselves, but the tradeoff is very useful. Not only do cycling cards put themselves in the graveyard for you (bypassing counterspells) but they let you draw a card to boot, so you maintain card advantage.

2) Alternative methods. If your opponent has too much graveyard hate, it's good to have at least a couple of alternate ways of getting your creatures into play. Green is useful with Natural Order, Elvish Piper, and Defense of the Heart. For blue, Polymorph is another method, but is kind of iffy. Dragon Arch would work for any deck, but I haven't playtested it much myself. It also helps to have creatures you can hard cast, if needed. So if you are playing B/U and can't decide between Akroma or Tidespout Tyrant, then the Tyrant should probably get the slot.

3) Some other fat creatures that I haven't seen mentioned, but are definitely worth considering:

Hellkite Overlord - Simply the biggest flyer around, and with haste and trample, it can many times win you the game that same turn.

Reva Dawnbringer - To me, this is an auto-include, and the first thing I grab from my library when I cast Buried Alive. She reanimates another creature every turn for you!

Sisters of Stone Death - This might not look that great at first glance, but consider her special abilities let her remove any creature facing her, even a Phrexian Dreadnought. But can only play effectively in a B/G deck.

Autochion Wurm - Speaking of Phrexian Dreadnoughts, this is one of the few creatures in the game that can block one and survive. And at 9/14, it's also simply the biggest creature you can possibly play in a reanimator deck period. They are also pretty cheap to buy compared to the others here - only about .75 cents a card, the last time I checked.

Extractor Demon - At first glance, this one might seem lame compared to the others here, since it's only a 5/5 flyer. But it's unearth ability means that it can essentially reanimate itself. If you put three of these in your graveyard with a Buried Alive spell, then you have 15 points damage you can dish out over the game - damage which cannot be countered. In playtesting, these were very good against countertop decks. And since they cost 4BB, it means you have the potential to hardcast them if you have to.

Maelstrom Archangel - Not only can this thing put fat creatures out for you, it will cast any of your spells. There are so many potential ways to exploit this creature I can't even begin to describe them here.

Divinity of Pride - A lifelink flyer that has the potential to get up to 8/8is terrific. At BBBBB, it's also relatively cheap for hardcasting too, especially if you are playing mono-black reanimator.

Sphinx Sovereign - haven't playtested this one yet, but this thing will automatically damage your opponent for 3 per turn, which adds up pretty quickly. Or if you need life, it can give you that instead.

Thrashing Wumpus - At 3/3, this looks like the weakest creature on this list, but since it has a built-in Pestilence ability, it can totally wipe out goblin, merfolk, or elf decks. Great sideboard card. Cheap to hardcast too.

Prince of Thralls - Haven't playtested this one either, but it's ability to steal permanents has a lot of potential.

Laquatus's Champion - a great finisher if your opponent is at 6 life or less. This is life loss, not damage, so it can't be prevented by normal means.


A couple other points:
Reanimate. I know this thread says its the best spell in this deck, but I disagree. Paying 8 life to pull out an Akroma is a hell of a price if it just gets bounced back to your hand. Add in pain lands, and you are losing half of your life pretty quickly. For just one more mana, Exhume or Animate Dead will get the job done without life loss. Plus, Reanimate doesn't really speed up the game anyway. You still can't pull out creature from the graveyard until the second turn (unless you are playing with dark rituals).

Victimize. Why pull out one card when you can get two? Yes, they come into play tapped, but some cards (like Empyrial Archangel or Angel of Despair) are still usefull even if they come into play tapped.

Any thoughts?

nodahero
03-31-2009, 10:43 PM
Please read the thread... that is my first thought...

While I HONESTLY appreciate someone necroing this thread because I do really enjoy playing the deck and contemplating card choices it seems highly evident that you have either choose to ignore the info we have presented here... or you have not read the thread.

Each of your suggested fatties are very poor (for the most part) in comparison to those "currently" used.

Hellkite Overlord--Not to shabby due to overall speed although StP still does a number on his ass

Reva Dawnbringer--I did see you talking about using Buried Alive... but why use it? Buried Alive really slows down the deck giving your opponent to get hate online. Yes, this is a relevant point against Reya because otherwise she is very poor and she also dies to StP.

Sisters of Stone Death-- Who needs the ability to force a block when you can win any race. If you have the mana to use her ability you can out race your opponent.

Autochion Wurm-- While blocking Nought is a nice trick thats all it would ever really due in that situation until you find another fatty and reanimator. There are better options to solve Nought such as AoD.

Extractor Demon-- Really? Again with Buried Alive? While it is synergistic I hardly feel it is worth it in the deck.

Maelstrom Archangel-- The vast majority of the spells in the deck cost one or two mana anyway... If you get her into play and manage to get the turn to swing with her you are sitting pretty assuming you also have a fatty because then at least your opponent needs to topdeck 2 removal spells.

Sphinx Sovereign-- I am sorry their is almost no justifiable reason to run this... Phantom Nishoba runs laps around this chick all day.

Thrashing Wumpus-- This hardly qualifies as a fatty. I do however like his built in Pestilence ability although Thunder Dragon may be on par or slightly better due to the quicker clock he presents while keeping your life a little safer.

Prince of Thralls-- You are joking me right? Please do not run this card. It is one of those "danger of doing cute things cards"

Laquatus's Champion -- Id rather just hit them for 6 with haste... not to mention they cant stifle that.

As for Reanimate being amazing or not... The beauty of Reanimate is the speed it can generate. It allows you to Careful Study and Reanimate on second turn incase your opponent counterd your turn 1 outlet. While this is only one reason I asure you there are more.

John Rohan
04-01-2009, 12:45 AM
Please read the thread... that is my first thought...

While I HONESTLY appreciate someone necroing this thread because I do really enjoy playing the deck and contemplating card choices it seems highly evident that you have either choose to ignore the info we have presented here... or you have not read the thread.

Jeez, I just throw out some new ideas based on my own playing, and already someone feels threatened. I did read the entire thread. More than once, as a matter of fact. So the purpose of a forum is to repeat again and again the same ideas already out there? Gee whiz, I thought the purpose was to present new ideas and discuss.

If you want a thread based on your ideas only, then start a thread and don't let anyone post to it but you. Good luck with that.

Anyway, read what I wrote. I said that a lot of these cards "may not be right for your deck or your meta, but are worth considering". That's all. Is that really such a problem for you?


Each of your suggested fatties are very poor (for the most part) in comparison to those "currently" used.

Yes, a lot of them are. But the point is many of them have trade-offs which may not seem so obvious at first. It's worth thinking about anyway. Getting back to the basics, to play a reanimator deck, you need:
1) A fat creature
2) A way to get it into the graveyard
3) A way to pull it out of the graveyard into play

Creatures and/or spells that do more than one of these things (such as cycling creatures, unearth creatures, etc) can be far more useful than ones that don't.

Ditto with creatures that are hardcastable, if your opponent throws a Planar Void or another similar spell down on the table.

As for the others - I don't currently play with most of them, but they are all creatures that I would consider, depending on the meta environment.


Maelstrom Archangel-- The vast majority of the spells in the deck cost one or two mana anyway...

Yes, except for the creatures themselves... If you are holding more fat creatures, you can throw out another one everytime the Maelstrom Angel hits. That was the point of including it here.

raharu
04-01-2009, 12:51 AM
Jeez, I just throw out some new ideas based on my own playing, and already someone feels threatened. I did read the entire thread. More than once, as a matter of fact. So the purpose of a forum is to repeat again and again the same ideas already out there? Gee whiz, I thought the purpose was to present new ideas and discuss.

If you want a thread based on your ideas only, then start a thread and don't let anyone post to it but you. Good luck with that.

*/whining, and then some stuff*
You seem to fail to realize the part where all of your ideas have been examined and don't pull their weight/ fail miserably, and take away slots from much better alternatives. I promise, my group has actually tested Reyana, Akroma, Autochion Wurm, and Sisters of Stone Death, and they all were worse than the slots we cut for them (and this was before Archangel). Seriously, it's not defensive, cloistered thought processes, it's your ideas already being discarded for other, better ones that are more functional and work better on a fundamental level, not as meta concerns. Seriously.

EDIT: The whole "well I'm just trying to innovate by introducing old ideas "just 'cuz" is really trite. No offense, it just annoys the shit out of me to see it.

John Rohan
04-01-2009, 03:24 AM
Buried Alive really slows down the deck giving your opponent to get hate online.


One more comment to that - in a B/U deck with Careful Study, Brainstorm, etc, then you are right, you probably don't need Buried Alive. But in a B/G or other version, there really is no better way to get the creatures you want, especially if you are doing a "toobox" version, and want to find just the right creature to respond to a particular threat.

John Rohan
04-01-2009, 03:42 AM
You seem to fail to realize the part where all of your ideas have been examined and don't pull their weight/ fail miserably

Great. Please give me a link to anywhere in this thread where any of these creatures were discussed in depth. Good luck with that.


I promise, my group has actually tested Reyana, Akroma, Autochion Wurm, and Sisters of Stone Death, and they all were worse than the slots we cut for them.

Akroma? I didn't recommend Akroma one way or the other. But obviously, you just skimmed my post. Rather than being so quick to flame, it would be more constructive if you shared with us why Autochion or Sisters were worse than your current choices. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I would love to hear about it.


it's your ideas already being discarded for other, better ones that are more functional and work better on a fundamental level, not as meta concerns. Seriously.

If you ignore the meta, then quite frankly, you are doomed to lose. That's free advice. Ignore it if you want.


EDIT: The whole "well I'm just trying to innovate by introducing old ideas "just 'cuz" is really trite. No offense, it just annoys the shit out of me to see it.

I don't blame you for that, but since I didn't say anything here "just 'cuz", I'm not sure who you are talking to.

hyperchord24
04-01-2009, 07:01 AM
You seem to fail to realize the part where all of your ideas have been examined and don't pull their weight/ fail miserably, and take away slots from much better alternatives. I promise, my group has actually tested Reyana, Akroma, Autochion Wurm, and Sisters of Stone Death, and they all were worse than the slots we cut for them (and this was before Archangel). Seriously, it's not defensive, cloistered thought processes, it's your ideas already being discarded for other, better ones that are more functional and work better on a fundamental level, not as meta concerns. Seriously.

EDIT: The whole "well I'm just trying to innovate by introducing old ideas "just 'cuz" is really trite. No offense, it just annoys the shit out of me to see it.
If the cards work for his meta, then why complain? It's obvious he doesn't see a lot of stp or counters.

nodahero
04-01-2009, 03:48 PM
We are not complaining. We are simply trying to explain why the options are suboptimal. For example lets assume you have a meta devoid entirely of control... All you face is Goyfsligh, zoo, etc etc... Then the obvious choice is a balls to the walls combo deck... But what happens when suddenly a control deck shows up and the combo deck which has nothing against it is forced to do battle? The answer is either A he gets decimated... or B he gets in a quick win and dodges FoW...

While this analogy is not ideal it is intended to explain why using those choices are poor... Yes... In his meta some a 9/14 or whatever the wurm is may seem good but what happens when the new kid shows up packing a StP or he goes to a larger tournament where he faces another Reanimator list? Quite simply he will get trounced due to his "meta game savy card picks" as opposed to using a set of cards which have been tested and debated to cull the weak and allow the best to prosper.

In regards to the desire for a link to the pages where his specific card choices are discussed... I must say they do not exist although there analogues most certainly do. The only example I really remember off the top of my head is the prince of thralls. The prince is very similar to symbiotic wurm I think it was. While it seems good in theory, in testing their are various flaws in inherent with it. The wurm and prince both fall under in danger of cool things. As another way to review his card choices in comparison to our simply go and examine the vintage Oath decks and view their creature choices. While not all are applicable in reaniamtor such as Progenitus due to restrictions, we both cheat critters in and want the best. The primary difference is they have the best way of getting creatures into play and thus only need a few critters; ours is not as efficent and thus we need added redundancy.

As for the ignore the meta argument... It sounds like you do not actually have a meta but rather people that play. A meta is a large collection of players with multiple decks being played by multiple players. NOTE if your supposed meta does not pack FoW then it is certainly nota meta.

Edit: If his card choices are due to budget constraints or simply a desire to go off the beaten path and to attempt to blaze a path of glory then yes perhaps we are of little help but if his goal is to build the best version then I feel our comments are accurate and needed. Perhaps we need Rodgon to come back and more accurately articulate our points...

John Rohan
04-01-2009, 04:31 PM
As for the ignore the meta argument... It sounds like you do not actually have a meta but rather people that play. A meta is a large collection of players with multiple decks being played by multiple players. NOTE if your supposed meta does not pack FoW then it is certainly nota meta.


If you are talking to me, I'll tell you that I played my B/G reanimator at GP Chicago, which had over 1200 people. Other than that, I only play online, which is the most "meta" environment you can have.

On this list, it looks like the conventional wisdom is to pack your deck with Empyrial Archangels or Simic Sky Swallowers. You mention StP several times in your posts, and if you face that a lot, then shroud creatures make sense.

But then what happens when you face Dreadstifle? An attack by a Phrex Dreadnought will kill either one. Heck, it will kill your Archangel, even if you don't block! Suddenly you might wish you had at least one Sisters or Autochion Wurm (or an Angel of Despair will also do). Or if you have Reva Dawnbringer, it doesn't matter if your Archangel is killed or not, because every turn she will just pull it back from the graveyard, creating a loop that makes you impossible to kill. I once had nothing but those two creatures out, and beat an Artifact affinity deck that had like a dozen creatures on the table.

Anyway, the point is, I prefer the "toolbox" approach, and put in a wide range of creatures to face various threats. In my current build I pack one Archangel and one red Akroma to help me if I'm facing StP. With a Buried Alive spell, I can pull them out no matter where they are in my deck.

I can't do much against Blue control or FoW, except be patient and ride it out (although Rodgon's original deck in this thread didn't have much to stop it either). My sideboard is heavily weighted to stop blue though - one advantage of the B/G version is that green has plenty of anti-blue cards. I now have 4 copies of Vexing Shusher in my sideboard, which is amazing in this deck. In a B/U I prefer to fight fire with fire, and pack 4x FoWs myself - it's also the best defense against combo, something this deck is vulnerable to.

sauce
04-01-2009, 06:07 PM
Trying to Reanimate this thread lol.

Anyone saw the new card Child of Alara?

WGRBU
Trample 6/6
When Child of Alara leaves play, destroy all non-land permanents.

Just wondering if it'll be cool to play her in a more controllish Reanimator with Recurring Nightmare.

RTFC!

Legendary Creature - Avatar 6/6, WUBRG (5)
Trample
When Child of Alara is put into a graveyard from play, destroy all nonland permanents. They can't be regenerated.

It is not leaves play...

nodahero
04-01-2009, 09:44 PM
@ Sauce... Child was origanlly spoiled to trigger on leaves play... not grave yard... before you try and make fun of someone check your dates... and what may have lead to his statement... making fun of someone online is like beating a guy in Soul Caliber online and saying you kicked his ass in a fight... really sad... not to be a hypocrit but someone had to say it.

kicks_422
04-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Is blue really required to make Reanimator work? I've tried making a mono-black version with some twists to make up for the card draw, and I'd really appreciate it if you guys could help me with it. It's in the Budget forum under the N&D forum. :smile:

John Rohan
04-01-2009, 11:05 PM
Is blue really required to make Reanimator work? I've tried making a mono-black version with some twists to make up for the card draw, and I'd really appreciate it if you guys could help me with it. It's in the Budget forum under the N&D forum. :smile:

I'll comment there with specifics, but in general, sure you can do mono-black. But you basically have almost no protection or artifact/enchantment removal. So your best bet is to go the pure speed route, with dark rituals, etc, or combine it with a discard stategy to attack your opponent's hand.

raharu
04-02-2009, 12:52 AM
Akroma? I didn't recommend Akroma one way or the other. But obviously, you just skimmed my post. Rather than being so quick to flame, it would be more constructive if you shared with us why Autochion or Sisters were worse than your current choices. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I would love to hear about it.

Because Akroma is slower than Hellkite Overlord, less flexible than Bogardan Hellkite, less protected than Simic Sky Swallower, and doesn't do anything special in it's own right. Also, the whole invalidation of a third of your reanimation suite is a serious kick in the nuts. There is *no* reason to play her, as she does everything other creatures do much worse, and nothing better. Also, Legendary *is* relevant when you actually have blue, and access to draw power.

The Wurm was just cute. He has no evasion, no trample, no... nothing. Dies to StP (a gripe that also surfaces with everything else you suggested, Akroma included), doesn't do anything other than be big. If that was all I wanted, I'd play Tarmogoyf.

Sisters lacked relevance. Win-more, no evasion, no protection, just... bad.

Also, I didn't just skim your post. I actually re-read it twice because I wanted to be sure that you actually suggested what you suggested. Still not flaming, but test what you suggest, and test it against good decks, please.


If you ignore the meta, then quite frankly, you are doomed to lose. That's free advice. Ignore it if you want.

I don't ignore the meta, what I said was that the choices you've presented are all sub-optimal in *every* meta. All of them.


If you are talking to me, I'll tell you that I played my B/G reanimator at GP Chicago, which had over 1200 people. Other than that, I only play online, which is the most "meta" environment you can have.

Record?


On this list, it looks like the conventional wisdom is to pack your deck with Empyrial Archangels or Simic Sky Swallowers. You mention StP several times in your posts, and if you face that a lot, then shroud creatures make sense.

StP was one of the most played cards at the GP, and is one of the most played cards in the format. Seriously? You are almost guaranteed to face it, even at god-awful locals.


But then what happens when you face Dreadstifle? An attack by a Phrex Dreadnought will kill either one. Heck, it will kill your Archangel, even if you don't block! Suddenly you might wish you had at least one Sisters or Autochion Wurm (or an Angel of Despair will also do). Or if you have Reva Dawnbringer, it doesn't matter if your Archangel is killed or not, because every turn she will just pull it back from the graveyard, creating a loop that makes you impossible to kill. I once had nothing but those two creatures out, and beat an Artifact affinity deck that had like a dozen creatures on the table.

They play Countermagic, not to mention CounterTop, Stifle for your Reyana, can still kill you with factories if you can block the 'Naught, in some cases SWORDS TO FRIGGIN' PLOWSHARES, and I simply don't believe that an decent Affinity deck vomited out a dozen creatures and didn't Disciple you out. Since you don't run Archangel...


Anyway, the point is, I prefer the "toolbox" approach, and put in a wide range of creatures to face various threats. In my current build I pack one Archangel and one red Akroma to help me if I'm facing StP. With a Buried Alive spell, I can pull them out no matter where they are in my deck.

You can prefer it all you want. I prefer to play Mono-black suicide, MUC, D+T, and draft decks. Notice how I didn't say I win with them. The point of this forum is to make competitive decks, not decks we prefer playing with. Given the chance to not end up in the 0-X bracket, I'd play thunderbluff, because that's what I prefer, but I don't, because I like playing competitive decks to ones I prefer (actually I just like winning).


I can't do much against Blue control or FoW, except be patient and ride it out (although Rodgon's original deck in this thread didn't have much to stop it either). My sideboard is heavily weighted to stop blue though - one advantage of the B/G version is that green has plenty of anti-blue cards. I now have 4 copies of Vexing Shusher in my sideboard, which is amazing in this deck. In a B/U I prefer to fight fire with fire, and pack 4x FoWs myself - it's also the best defense against combo, something this deck is vulnerable to.

A) The whole metagame is Blue-based control.

If you ignore the meta, then quite frankly, you are doomed to lose. That's free advice. Ignore it if you want.
B) Shusher still bites it to removal, and your threats still bite it to removal, so you can play through a self-imposed, one-sided Sphere of Resistance, or... you could play disruption, or... You could play draw power, threats that don't eat removal, and more resources than they run counters...

Also, have fun with your abysmally low blue count for FoW.


I still think that UB reanimator should run FoW, Daze, and perhaps some sort of removal main to get the edge in forcing threats through while removing the opponents.

I would say that the agreed upon reanimator package is:


Reanimate x4
Exhume x4
Animate Dead x4

Empyrial Archangel x4
Simic Sky Swallower x3/4 (season to meta)
Inkwell Levithan x3/4 (season to meta)

So that's 22 to 24 slots agreed upon. As there really aren't any blue cards that one would want to pitch to FoW without seriously thinking about it in this list, the rest should be mostly draw and protection. This is where some contention arises. I'm thinking something like this would be nice, but it's just a place to grow out from:


Careful Study x4
Brainstorm x4
Daze x4
Force of Will x4


and some sort of other discard outlet. I've always had an eye somewhat cast towards Predict, but even as a two-of I think it would get in the way more than anything (as only Brainstorm stacks the deck in this list). As technically we're already at 26 blue cards, 16 of which aren't going to be *too* missed, Purtid Imp or Oona's Prowler seem solid. Perhaps this list suffers from too few discard outlets. iDunno. It's all just speculation, but Daze and Fow are what I believe would make the deck competitive.

John Rohan
04-02-2009, 02:32 AM
The Wurm was just cute. He has no evasion, no trample, no... nothing. Dies to StP (a gripe that also surfaces with everything else you suggested, Akroma included), doesn't do anything other than be big.

You know, before you flame me any more for my supposed ignorance, you should know that:

1. Autochion Wurm has trample. Check it again.

2. Once again, I didn't suggest Akroma (the white one, anyway).



Record?

On MWS, my record is about 40-60 when facing tier 1 deck types (about 60-40 if I can use my sideboard). At the GP, it was 3-6, mostly because of combo (which I already knew I was doomed against) and monored burn, which I wasn't expecting. You can read about it in detail here, if you want:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13283

I suppose you can flame me for pulling 3-6, but considering that reanimator isn't anywhere near top of the format, that it was my first time playing offline in several years, and that I was playing some of the best players around, it's a start. I've already made some substantial improvements, and will post another decklist at some point.


StP was one of the most played cards at the GP, and is one of the most played cards in the format. Seriously? You are almost guaranteed to face it, even at god-awful locals.

At GP Chicago, I saw it in one single deck I faced (which I beat). It was also in the winning deck, so yes, of course it's an important card, I don't deny that, and it's why I have some creatures with protection from it. But I'm not going to base my entire deck's design around that single card.


They play Countermagic, not to mention CounterTop, Stifle for your Reyana, can still kill you with factories if you can block the 'Naught, in some cases SWORDS TO FRIGGIN' PLOWSHARES, and I simply don't believe that an decent Affinity deck vomited out a dozen creatures and didn't Disciple you out. Since you don't run Archangel...

?? I do use Archangel. I said that twice in my post. But I only need one copy of it. Reya + Archangel creates the loop. Even if you stifle Reya, she will just use her ability again the next turn.


You can prefer it all you want. I prefer to play Mono-black suicide, MUC, D+T, and draft decks. Notice how I didn't say I win with them. The point of this forum is to make competitive decks, not decks we prefer playing with. Given the chance to not end up in the 0-X bracket, I'd play thunderbluff, because that's what I prefer, but I don't, because I like playing competitive decks to ones I prefer (actually I just like winning).

Then why do you play B/U reanimator? Seriously, is it anywhere near the top of the format right now? If you are satisfied with it currently as a tier 2 deck, then by all means, continue. Otherwise, maybe you might want to consider some other ideas. That's all I'm suggesting.

Reanimator, whether B/U, B/G, or mono black, (or B/W is very possible), has a hell of a lot of potential which I think hasn't even been realized yet.

Anyway, your post is just dripping with sarcasm, and I'm trying very hard to avoid going tit for tat. If you disagree with me, fine. But let's try to have a civil discussion.

nodahero
04-02-2009, 12:50 PM
In ALL HONESTY I think you are being a little overly defensive. It sounded to me like Raharu was being very calm.

Perhaps you can attempt to explain your card choices as comparison to Raharu's suggested agreed upon cards and explain where the parallels lay...

Then again you can also continue to ignore my suggestions... :rolleyes:

raharu
04-02-2009, 04:25 PM
You know, before you flame me any more for my supposed ignorance, you should know that:

1. Autochion Wurm has trample. Check it again.

Got me. I think that impression just came from our goblins player throwing stuff under the bus to live for another turn and swing lethal.


On MWS, my record is about 40-60 when facing tier 1 deck types (about 60-40 if I can use my sideboard). At the GP, it was 3-6, mostly because of combo (which I already knew I was doomed against) and monored burn, which I wasn't expecting. You can read about it in detail here, if you want:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13283

This deck looses instantly when CB hits the table. If you see CB, you scoop (lest you play the repeals, but you're in bg, so... K grip from the side *might* gave you a bit longer), so somehow I doubt that 40% of the decks you see that run CB, removal, or Countermagic (i.e. tier 1 decks) don't see the cards that wreck the deck game one.


I suppose you can flame me for pulling 3-6, but considering that reanimator isn't anywhere near top of the format, that it was my first time playing offline in several years, and that I was playing some of the best players around, it's a start. I've already made some substantial improvements, and will post another decklist at some point.

A) I'm not flaming

B) Nope. It's not a good finish, but it's respectable.


At GP Chicago, I saw it in one single deck I faced (which I beat). It was also in the winning deck, so yes, of course it's an important card, I don't deny that, and it's why I have some creatures with protection from it. But I'm not going to base my entire deck's design around that single card.

Not just StP, most removal in general. Even Terror wrecks you, so why not take out a third of the problems the deck faces, and then board for the rest?


?? I do use Archangel. I said that twice in my post. But I only need one copy of it. Reya + Archangel creates the loop. Even if you stifle Reya, she will just use her ability again the next turn.

In a typical build, one creature that doesn't get removed isn't enough to see it consistantly, and one turn is all that's needed to swing through Reya for lethal or burn you out. Just a thought.




Then why do you play B/U reanimator? Seriously, is it anywhere near the top of the format right now? If you are satisfied with it currently as a tier 2 deck, then by all means, continue. Otherwise, maybe you might want to consider some other ideas. That's all I'm suggesting.

Tier two decks are better than tier three decks, and tier two decks can show up as an unforeseen element and win, while tier three decks just... suck, essentially. I'm trying to stop that backslide.


Reanimator, whether B/U, B/G, or mono black, (or B/W is very possible), has a hell of a lot of potential which I think hasn't even been realized yet.

Anyway, your post is just dripping with sarcasm, and I'm trying very hard to avoid going tit for tat. If you disagree with me, fine. But let's try to have a civil discussion.

And I am having one, however much you want to make civility seem like savagery, it's not.

rleader
04-02-2009, 05:11 PM
A toolbox is fun casually, but intuition is too slow when you need it vs. iminent death which is the exact moment when having a toolbox is useful.

That's not to say that intution can't be in a more competitive deck, only that it's useful for improving late-game consistancy, not getting you out of almost unwinnable situations.

gamegeek2
04-02-2009, 05:34 PM
I don't see why people don't just play 4 Leviathan. Best possible reanimation fatty in this format.

HdH_Cthulhu
04-02-2009, 05:57 PM
My top 3 targets:
Empyrial Archangel: Shorud, evasion, good for offense and defense! Yeah!
Hellkite Overlord: Phet, fast.
Akroma: A bit oldschool but still good.

What are yours?

gamegeek2
04-02-2009, 05:59 PM
In the majority of matchups, Leviathan is unblockable, unkillable, and unstoppable.

Linkin Pac
04-02-2009, 06:25 PM
gamegeek2, I do believe Bogardan Hellkite is the best fatty to reanimate; I think it is the only creature that can be agreed upon to be a 4 of. It serves as creature control, a non-attacking form of damage, and its burning ability gives it psuedo-haste. You don't need to worry about a StP making it completely worthless; you will at least get the 5 damage in. Many a times I have topdecked an Exhume to win with it instantly. It fits a niche in the fatties of the Reanimator deck IMO.

As for Inkwell Leviathan, I still prefer to use Simic Sky Swallower over it, and I will explain my reasoning. While it is true that SO many decks out there have blue, you will still come across several non-blue ones, and suddenly the Leviathan isn't really better. Obviously, a 7 power versus 6 power means the game can potentially be ended in 3 turns from when you get it in play, compared to 4 turns for SSS, but assuming your opponent is non-blue, all he needs to do is drop a 2 toughness creature at some time in the first 3 turns in order to make the clock equal. Additionally, SSS can win the game in 3 turns several times; between an opponents' possible fetchlands/Ancient Tomb and your Putrid Imp poking them. I feel that the all-around usefulness of Flying outweighs the usually useful (but not all the time) Islandwalk.

John Rohan, don't let anyone discourage you from playing BG! You may lose the fluidity of blue or the consistency of monoblack, but you gain answers to some of the deck's biggest problems in the form of Krosan Grip. I was considering trying BG, and was thinking about possibly adding Survival to the mix. Has anyone tried this? The positives are that it serves as both a discard outlet and a tutor, lending itself to your deck's toolbox approach. The downside is that it's slow, and requires a hefty amount of creatures in your deck to fully utilize.

HdH_Cthulhu, my top 3 fatties as of now are Bogardan Hellkite, Simic Sky Swallower and Empyrial Archangel. I run 4 each of the first two and 3 Angels, but I am finding it hard to decide between Angels, Akromas, or Leviathans.

John Rohan
04-02-2009, 06:43 PM
This deck looses instantly when CB hits the table. If you see CB, you scoop (lest you play the repeals, but you're in bg, so... K grip from the side *might* gave you a bit longer), so somehow I doubt that 40% of the decks you see that run CB, removal, or Countermagic (i.e. tier 1 decks) don't see the cards that wreck the deck game one.

Actually, CB isn't total death - I play Krosan Grip, Boseiju, Mishra's factories, Extractor Demon and [now] Vexing Shusher. Also Victimize, Defense of the Heart, and Cranial Extraction are 3 and 4 point spells which are more likely to get past the CB.


Not just StP, most removal in general. Even Terror wrecks you, so why not take out a third of the problems the deck faces, and then board for the rest?.

Got it - but the problem is the limited number of slots in the deck. If I can search or do Buried Alive for the shroud creature when I need it, then why not have more variety for the toolbox? That also frees up slots in the sideboard.

John Rohan
04-02-2009, 07:13 PM
gamegeek2, I do believe Bogardan Hellkite is the best fatty to reanimate; I think it is the only creature that can be agreed upon to be a 4 of. It serves as creature control, a non-attacking form of damage, and its burning ability gives it psuedo-haste. You don't need to worry about a StP making it completely worthless; you will at least get the 5 damage in. Many a times I have topdecked an Exhume to win with it instantly. It fits a niche in the fatties of the Reanimator deck IMO.

I've experiemented with it, and liked it enough to order one for my deck. Just what to take out though? That's always the problem..:mad:

Previously, I've tried both Midnight Banshee and Laquatus's Champion to perform similar roles. But the problem with the Banshee is she kills my own creatures too. The problem with Laquatus is that the opponent can sometimes get the life they lost back.



As for Inkwell Leviathan, I still prefer to use Simic Sky Swallower over it, and I will explain my reasoning.

I would give a slight edge to the Leviathan though, since the 11 toughness means that it can always block a Tarmogoyf and survive. Also, if there is a Doran, Siege Tower in play, he attacks with 11 damage!



John Rohan, don't let anyone discourage you from playing BG! You may lose the fluidity of blue or the consistency of monoblack, but you gain answers to some of the deck's biggest problems in the form of Krosan Grip. I was considering trying BG, and was thinking about possibly adding Survival to the mix. Has anyone tried this? The positives are that it serves as both a discard outlet and a tutor, lending itself to your deck's toolbox approach. The downside is that it's slow, and requires a hefty amount of creatures in your deck to fully utilize.

Thanks - I seriously considered Survival as well, but the main thrust of a Reanimator deck is to get creatures into the graveyard and then out, not necessarily in your hand. It's very useful, but doesn't have quite the right synergy. I'm sure there's a way to make it work well, though, but it would take a lot of reworking other parts of the deck. Another problem is it's a Casting cost 2 spell in a deck already full of CC2 spells , meaning that I would be making the deck even more vulnerable to counterbalance.

gamegeek2
04-02-2009, 08:09 PM
I would run some Show and Tell to get around CB.

troopatroop
05-04-2009, 03:08 PM
I was really high last night, and scribbled down this decklist. I really liked it at the time, and it's pretty good. I thought I'd share.

-Discard-
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
3 Ideas Unbound

-Animation-
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate

-Blue-
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

-Big Guys-
3 Hellkite Overlord
3 Empyrial Archangel
2 Reya Dawnbringer

-18 Land-
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Swamp

The mana curve...

1cc: 15
2cc: 15 (4 Daze)
3cc: 0
4cc: 0
5cc: 4 (FOW)
Uncastables : 8

Basically, I realized that a Reanimator deck is equally dependant on Discard and Reanimation. This means that you should probably be playing an even distribution. This list plays 11 Discard and 11 Animation. Ideas Unbound and Careful Study are great at giving you card advantage in this deck, and set up an overwhelmingly consistent turn 2-3 Fatty. Accompanied with Brainstorm, they also allow you to run 18 land. The mana curve is so tight in this, and all the spells are really good. I don't expect to see any Counter-top in my meta, and this build just seems too consistent to get beat by anything else. Even if they answer your first attempt at reanimation, this build is awesome at delivering another. Thoughts?

Dark_Cynic87
05-04-2009, 03:59 PM
I built a wierd reanimator a while back. It was B/U/g, and it went more around Aether Vial, Reanimate, and Unearth. Vial at 2, vial at 3 was good and the creature base included Dreadnoughts w/ Stifle obv., but also good with Vial as we all know, Bobs, Witnesses (good loop, witness + unearth = recycling chump blocker), goyfs, and Trygon Predators and Trinket Mage. I had CB and Top in it also at one point. It wasn't about fat, it was more about keeping creatures on the field with the reanimators. Dreadnought was obviously the better swinger, and there are plenty of other creatures you could choose from as well, I just liked the synergies between top and bob, vial and dreadnought, which in some matchups allows you to save your stifles for their fetches, E. Witness to get back anything, mages to grab vial, nought or top, as well as the usual one-of targets, and all the while everything is basically recyclable as you have E. Witness, and 6-8 reanimation spells.

Predators wiped out opposing CB's while Vial allowed you to work around it. It even ran enough blue that FoW was an option. With this version, you don't have to worry about a discard outlet as everything is more than castable, and you didn't need the traditional intuition/buried alive scam to screw yourself over with having to dump a card just to get pwned by Relic/crypt/random yard hate.

It takes advantage of the reanimation aspect of the game while still maintaining it's ability to work straight through the graveyard hate.

18 creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dreadnought
2x Trygon Predator
2x E. Witness
2x Trinket Mage
4x Bob

4x Thoughtseize
4x Stifle
4x Aether Vial
3x Unearth
2x Reanimate
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm

4x Delta
2x Mire
4x Wasteland
1x Trop
2x USea
2x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold

SIDEBOARD:
3x K. Grip
2x Extirpate
2x Hurkyl's Recall (would rather this be something else, but what? Stax/prison solution...)
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Aethersworn Cannonist
1x Scrubland

It's obviously extremely tempo-y, but has many good qualities. It needs tweaked but I think it runs well for a screw-off deck I just threw together one day. I'm sure if it looks like something you want to play, someone could definitely get it rolling.

Thoughtseize + Reanimate = you stealing their goyf costing you only 2 life. Exciting for sure.

Pce,

--DC

Sun_Ra
05-04-2009, 10:35 PM
Thoughtseize + Reanimate = you stealing their goyf costing you only 2 life.


Don't forget three mana. And two cards.

Unearth is dead sexy, though, in my opinion.

Dark_Cynic87
05-05-2009, 09:12 AM
By two life I clearly meant 4, btw...

and it's only 2 mana, not 3, unless you are anticipating Daze...

Pce,

--DC

enemyofarsenic
05-06-2009, 03:49 AM
4 Inkwell Leviathan / 4 Empyrial Archangel / 4(3) Simic Sky Swallower would be optimal i believe. If they resolve, no more worries to targeted removals except for diabolic edicts, innocent bloods, wrath of gods etc... I think Force of Will in reanimator would be good since all the fattties are blue if they needed to be pitched and Force of Will is there to also protect reanimating your fatties and counter diabolic edicts, wrath of gods and such...

John Rohan
05-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Basically, I realized that a Reanimator deck is equally dependant on Discard and Reanimation. This means that you should probably be playing an even distribution. This list plays 11 Discard and 11 Animation.

That's something I've considered a lot. But I'm not sure if you need an exactly equal number of discard and reanimate because of Putrid Imp. The Imp can discard as many cards as you want, while Reanimate/Exhume/Animate Dead, etc can only pull out one at a time. So you should maybe have slightly more reanimation spells than discard spells. But if you want balance, remember the deck is dependant on three things, not two:

1) Discard
2) Reanimation
3) Fat Creature

So you should have some kind of balance of all three.

BTW, since we are on the subject, I've looked through Alara Reborn, and Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189641) looks like a good candidate for a Reanimator Deck. It's like having another Akroma (although not nearly as pretty):

http://www.wizards.com/magic/SphinxoftheSteelWind.jpg

cc 5WUB
Artifact Creature — Sphinx
Flying, first strike, vigilance, lifelink, protection from red and from green
6 / 6

Consider:
It has no protection from StP, bounce, or control magic. But there are very, very few creatures in the game with protection from Green, and this is the first large one (unless if you count Progenitus). It's safe from burn and from Goyf. Not to mention the other multiple abilities are pretty cool too. It may be worth having one in the main deck if you have library searching, or as a sideboard card.

Sun_Ra
05-10-2009, 01:14 AM
Why would you want protection from the colors that don't play relevant removal? Not to mention, all of Reanimator's creatures eat Goyfs for breakfast on defense and usually have evasion on offense. Roughly as bad as Akroma imo, which is to say, nigh-unplayable.

John Rohan
05-10-2009, 04:29 AM
Why would you want protection from the colors that don't play relevant removal?

That's why I said it might work better as a sideboard card. But even if your opponent isn't playing red or green, a 6/6 creature with Flying, first strike, vigilance, and lifelink is still one hell of a useful creature.


Not to mention, all of Reanimator's creatures eat Goyfs for breakfast on defense and usually have evasion on offense. Roughly as bad as Akroma imo, which is to say, nigh-unplayable.

Goyf often gets to 6/7, while many popular reanimation targets (such as Simic-Sky Swallower) are 6/6, creating a problem if you need to block it. Shroud doesn't help you in that situation. Of course, as with many other things, the choice here depends heavily on the meta environment.

sillysam71
05-10-2009, 11:08 AM
This card being good really depends on your matchups. If you play a lot of burn decks, this guy would be pretty good. They can't kill it and the lifelink will save your ass. It would also be good against R/G aggro and maybe red thresh. Other than that though, there aren't very many uses for it.

If you have a lot of those matchups though, go for it. Sideboard might not be too bad of an idea. There's just too much removal that this guy isn't protected from to make him feasible otherwise.

hyperchord24
05-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Even for just the lifelink there are better options: Phantom Nishoba and Windbrisk Raptor.

John Rohan
05-11-2009, 08:25 AM
Even for just the lifelink there are better options: Phantom Nishoba and Windbrisk Raptor.

Ok, but he's got a hell of a lot more other abilities than those two cards.

Dark_Cynic87
05-11-2009, 10:12 AM
Kills Tombstalker and every other flying bomb not named Akroma, as if the mirror match happens with this any more.

Pro-Green with flying and Vigilance makes it a new-age ultimate goyf-wall, keeping a Tarmogoyf from hitting while flying over it and smacking them for six each turn. Same with Terravore and KnightotR.

It's decently good, other than the lack of protection. Decent against Goblins (depending on what colors they are splashing), probably against Merfolk too, depending on the splash.

Pce,

--DC

bowvamp
05-14-2009, 09:11 PM
I say he's still funcionally worse than Empyrial Archangel. Empyrial can do anything this guy can do with +3 defense, and also absorbs other creatures' attacks.

BTW:
Nice new layout, me likey.

John Rohan
05-16-2009, 06:31 AM
I say he's still funcionally worse than Empyrial Archangel. Empyrial can do anything this guy can do with +3 defense, and also absorbs other creatures' attacks.

BTW:
Nice new layout, me likey.

You mean +2 defense don't you? The Archangel can absorb other creature attacks, but that's not always an advantage. If you take 8 damage in a turn, you will lose the Angel whether you wanted to or not. But lifelink on a creature with vigilance means that you can attack, gain life, and still defend next turn. The real offset is that the Archangel has shroud, and this thing doesn't.

LegacyDan
05-20-2009, 11:20 PM
Has anyone used either Spirit of the Night or Thraximundar?

They both seem like kinda viable options, but I decided to ask first playtest later.

coraz86
05-21-2009, 01:33 AM
Spirit of the Night has pro-white, which is fantastic. I can't believe that I, raised on Mirage and Tempest, missed that.

On a related note; I really, really liked playing Solar Flare in Standard (and this is at a time when I hated playing blue). I've seen people discussing a controlling reanimator build in parts of this thread, but it didn't seem serious enough to me given the potential that's there.
I say this, of course, having not even tried such a thing. Has anyone tried this? (If so, should we keep it in here or start a new thread?)

lolosoon
05-21-2009, 04:25 AM
Spirit of the Night has pro-white
Sorry pal, but the Spirit has Pro-Black. So he's a valid target for all those StP around.

I'm currently enjoying testing B/U Reanimator but have some interrogations 'bout my build :

B/U Shroudimator

// Lands
2x Island
4x Swamp
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea

// Fatties
4x Inkwell Leviathan
4x Empyrial Archangel
3x Simic Sky Swallower

// Discard effects
4x Putrid Imp
4x Careful Study

// Protection Spells
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize (act as discard effect 9-12 if needed)

// Goodness
4x Brainstorm

// Reanimation Spells
3x Show and Tell (not graveyard//discard dependant, up the blue card count)
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate

// Sideboard
SB: 4x Defense Grid
SB: 4x Wipe Away
SB: 3x Duress
SB: 1x Hellkite Overlord
SB: 1x Bogardan Hellkite
SB: 1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
SB: 1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
The reanimation targets are for the aggro matchup


The FoW are stellar, but the fatties choice makes the deck a lot slower and I've had a lot of trouble winning the damage race vs some swarm aggro with a lone fatty.

After SB it improved slightly if I draw into the reanimations target boarded in but it's a bit random.

Moreover, I wonder if Intuition could find its way into the deck as a utility spell (3ofs + a land in replacement of Brainstorm). But it seems way too slow and GY dependant (i.e. if you Intuition for fatties) in current meta.

Thoughts ?!

John Rohan
05-21-2009, 05:10 AM
Has anyone used either Spirit of the Night or Thraximundar?

They both seem like kinda viable options, but I decided to ask first playtest later.

Akroma, Angel of Wrath is slightly better than Spirit of the Night, IMHO. But both are pro-black, which means that you can't use Animate Dead on them.

Thraximundar's ability is interesting, but the problem is it lacks both evasion and shroud. It might be good in the sideboard against certain decks though.

enemyofarsenic
05-21-2009, 08:53 AM
List is nice @ lolosoon

Stick with Show and Tells instead of Intuition

Bogardan Hellkites for damage race

Dark_Cynic87
05-21-2009, 05:22 PM
Functionally, Show and Tell isn't even comparable to Intuition. I don't understand. It should be in place of a Reanimation spell, not the card that tutors up your critters. It makes Intuition dually good as you get one in your hand for Show and Tell and 2 in your yard for reanimation.

Pce,

--DC

coraz86
05-21-2009, 10:05 PM
I hadn't even looked up Spirit of the Night. :p I haven't seen one in years, my bad.

I agree with D_C87; I like the list posted above, but I think it needs more consistency over the power. Especially since you're not running any Moxes or City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb, so Show and Tell isn't getting as much of a drop on your opponent as you'd probably like. Forgive me if I'm reiterating something that's already been discussed, but that looks like a decent slot for Daze (protect your reanimation or your threat, retain tempo, all the reasons it's in Team America).

Benie Bederios
05-22-2009, 03:03 AM
I like the list of of lolosoon. But why do you play the shroud creatures? I mean you have FoW and Seize to protect your fattie.

3 Show and Tell is overkill though, You're better of with 1 Show and Tell and a number of Mystical Tutors to find it. It doesn't mess up your blue-count and it finds reanimation spells and the discard outlet...

Benie

lolosoon
05-22-2009, 05:00 AM
Thank you all for the feedback.

@enemyofarsenic & Dark_Cynic87 : Show & Tell and Intuition serve indeed different purposes :
S&T : Discard + Reanimation 2-in-1
Intuition : Tutor + Discard 2-in-1

So, at the moment, the switch I thought of was Brainstorms for 2-3 Intuitions and 1-2 additionnal manaSources. But BS+Fetchlands is so godly I can't make that move easily.

But Benie had a good call on this :

3 Show and Tell is overkill though, You're better of with 1 Show and Tell and a number of Mystical Tutors to find it. It doesn't mess up your blue-count and it finds reanimation spells and the discard outlet...
Mystical Tutor : Stellar in ANT//TES searching for kill, engine, mana or protection. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it in a combo deck like Reanimator.
Moreover, I agree 3 Show&Tells are somehow a liability : they can clog your hand, and even if I cast an "early" S&T (by turn 3), it might not have been the smarter choice cause I am sometimes unable to win the damage race vs a turn2 (attacking turn3) Goyf, + the one they put in with S&T.

But in Games2-3, their GY non-dependancy helps a lot, even if you don't dig into your SB cards (mainly Wipe Away).

Still, I must find rooms for the Mysticals. The 2-1 split with S&T (in favor of the Tutors) have to be tested, but looks fine on paper and could be the right decision.


About the Shrouded beasts + FoW and 'seize protection : The critters I run have Shroud, but mainly, they are blue and additionnal FoW fodder if utterly needed. Ok, I still have Thoughtseize vs countermagic, but they're no help vs a topdecked Wrath or a BWished Edict.

If I cut them for (arguably-) better reanimation targets like the Hellkites and Akroma, my blue card count will drop considerably (from 26 to a mere 15) and FoW backup for the key spell wouldn't occur that easily...

John Rohan
05-23-2009, 12:02 AM
If I cut them for (arguably-) better reanimation targets like the Hellkites and Akroma, my blue card count will drop considerably (from 26 to a mere 15) and FoW backup for the key spell wouldn't occur that easily...

If you just want blue creatures for FoW, here are three others you can consider:

Maelstrom Archangel (lets you cast any spell for free if it hits)
Sphinx of the Steel Wind (like another Akroma, see pic above)
Tidespout Tyrant - (Really a nightmare for counterspell decks if it gets on the table)

coraz86
05-23-2009, 03:04 AM
But why do you play the shroud creatures? I mean you have FoW and Seize to protect your fattie.

...what happens when you have to burn your Forces and Seizes to get your fattie onto the table? Eight dudes with shroud means you've always got one to reanimate, instead of going 'whoops, I drew the wrong Akroma' and getting it onto the table only to get it killed. Iridescent Angel feels a little slow to me, you know?

Empyrial Archangel and Simic Sky Swallower have the added bonus of being blue for FoW, and I'm sure there are more big blue dudes with shroud. I do really like Tidespout Tyrant if you can get (and keep) it on the table, though.

enemyofarsenic
05-25-2009, 05:54 AM
@ lolosoon

How's your B/U Shroudimator going? any new updates? =]

lolosoon
05-25-2009, 11:01 AM
@ lolosoon

How's your B/U Shroudimator going? any new updates? =]
Well, I've only made this swap as previously stated :
-2 Show & Tell
+2 Mystical Tutors

Mystical have been nothing but great in the last few test sessions. EOT tutor for protection, reanimate or discard spell or WipeAway post SB...
The S&T swap is quasi invisible 'cause you can easily tutor for Show&Tell in turns 1-2. And as stated before, Mystical can do much more than S&T.

The numbers look good so far :
- 11 killer critters
- 11 reanimate effects+Mystical+S&T
- 12 discard effect (including Thoughtseize)

So, on paper you have the greatest chances of having 1 spell of each category in your starting 7.

But sometimes, even vs non-blue decks, the numbers and the reality differs and you either mull to oblivion, or successfully bring your fattie into play too late (especially if the target is Empyrial Archangel, her capacity becoming a huge drawback when you have to race an opponent beeing ahead in firepower).

During some games, I was mana flooded, and mana short during others (Which was really disappointing with the dig provided by the Brainstorms and Studies sets). To make things short : The deck isn't enough consistant to be competitive. Or not enough explosive to excuse such inconsistencies (in comparison with, say, Ichorid).

Even if "Shroudinator" could be one of the best build, for now, I'm really sceptical and can't encourage any Legacy player looking for results to bring that deck in a tournament of 5+ rounds. Top4 will be really hard to reach.

Still, it's a blast to play when things are running well...

wizmentor
05-26-2009, 10:16 AM
Even if "Shroudinator" could be one of the best build, for now, I'm really sceptical and can't encourage any Legacy player looking for results to bring that deck in a tournament of 5+ rounds. Top4 will be really hard to reach.

Still, it's a blast to play when things are running well...

How about using smallpox for discard?
You're using

Sorry pal, but the Spirit has Pro-Black. So he's a valid target for all those StP around.

I'm currently enjoying testing B/U Reanimator but have some interrogations 'bout my build :

B/U Shroudimator

// Lands
2x Island
4x Swamp
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea

// Fatties
4x Inkwell Leviathan
4x Empyrial Archangel
3x Simic Sky Swallower

// Discard effects
4x Putrid Imp
4x Careful Study

// Protection Spells
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize (act as discard effect 9-12 if needed)

// Goodness
4x Brainstorm

// Reanimation Spells
3x Show and Tell (not graveyard//discard dependant, up the blue card count)
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate

// Sideboard
SB: 4x Defense Grid
SB: 4x Wipe Away
SB: 3x Duress
SB: 1x Hellkite Overlord
SB: 1x Bogardan Hellkite
SB: 1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
SB: 1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
The reanimation targets are for the aggro matchup


The FoW are stellar, but the fatties choice makes the deck a lot slower and I've had a lot of trouble winning the damage race vs some swarm aggro with a lone fatty.

After SB it improved slightly if I draw into the reanimations target boarded in but it's a bit random.

Moreover, I wonder if Intuition could find its way into the deck as a utility spell (3ofs + a land in replacement of Brainstorm). But it seems way too slow and GY dependant (i.e. if you Intuition for fatties) in current meta.

Thoughts ?!

I'm not sure it's relevant to this thread but how about
-4 FOW -4 Brainstorm
+4 Hymn +4 sinkhole

-4 imp -4 study
+7-8 pox/smallpox

-4 shroud dorks
+4 Sundering Titan (let them kill him if they want!)

This won't help the goblins matchup necessarily, but it sure should help against control and combo.

coraz86
05-26-2009, 03:27 PM
Titan has a double-digit ass and denies them at least one land, more if they're running duals (which keeps them low enough to delay Ringleader and Siege-Gang, possibly even Warchief if you get it turn two). I'd say that's not bad. Maybe not the best option in that particular matchup, but if it works well in other places, test it agaist Goblins before you cut it.

John Rohan
05-27-2009, 06:33 PM
Titan has a double-digit ass and denies them at least one land, more if they're running duals (which keeps them low enough to delay Ringleader and Siege-Gang, possibly even Warchief if you get it turn two). I'd say that's not bad. Maybe not the best option in that particular matchup, but if it works well in other places, test it agaist Goblins before you cut it.

Titan is great, but after test playing it, I think it's more of a sideboard card. Too often if your opponent is playing a mono color deck, you can end up losing two lands while your opponent loses only one.

UberNewHacks
05-29-2009, 06:20 PM
Here are some changes I think would be worth considering:
Garza Zol, Plague Queen
She's haste so damage, and she draws a card so the card advantage is pretty sick. And with the card advantage I think we would be able to get a second creature reanimated/exhumed/etc.
Cabal Therapy could be used as a method of discard without paying life. Depending on the situation it could be better than Thoughtseize.
Also, if you maindeck 4 Cabal Therapies, it opens up some interesting possibilities given the sacrifice flashback.
Most noteably, in the form of Stalking Vengance and Sundering Titan.
The Stalking Vengance advantage is much easier to integrate. The sacrificing can be used to deal the final crucial damage so that the game does not go another turn. Despite the fact that he does not have flying, if he was the first creature reanimated you could potentially do massive amounts of damage if he only hit once and then a second haste/flier was reanimated, swung, then sacrificed via Cabal Therapy. It's harder to counter as the sacrifice is considered part of the cost of flashing Cabal Therapy back.
Also, the Sundering Titan could also be integrated into the deck. This may be kind of radical, but you don't have to play any basic lands.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground River
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Urborg
1 Tolaria
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
That's 21. Obv. if you were serious about sundering titan not allowing lands on the board you could fix that up. Sacrifice it and hit the opponent again. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth means you can hit them for an extra color.

LegacyDan
06-09-2009, 11:43 PM
Titan is great, but after test playing it, I think it's more of a sideboard card. Too often if your opponent is playing a mono color deck, you can end up losing two lands while your opponent loses only one.


I do believe you can target one Underground Sea for your Titan.

John Rohan
06-11-2009, 06:19 AM
I do believe you can target one Underground Sea for your Titan.


Yes you can, and that is legal. But even if you only destroy one of yours, if you destroy one of your opponent's lands as well, its just an even trade-off and that isn't very satisfying. You will be wishing you had reanimated a different creature instead. However, if you are playing against a deck with multiple types of dual lands out, then the Titan's power is incredible. It also puts the opponent in the dilemma of what will happen if he destroys it.

UberNewHacks
06-16-2009, 06:43 PM
I have a question. How many creatures are we planning on Reanimating in a typical game? Because that would probably make eliminating choices easier. Also, how prevalent is Goblins in this format? I was under the impression it was hurting.

enemyofarsenic
06-17-2009, 07:04 AM
The configuration of reanimator is usually 12 fatties /12 discard enablers / 12 reanimations at the most, could be more or less.

Numena_Lowallyn
06-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Hi Everyone,
I’m new to the source and I also recently just started playing magic again. Anyways right before I quit playing magic last time I had wanted to build a reanimate deck. Now that I have started playing again, I took the deck list and modified a little bit for budget reasons and because I was playing against a MUC (Mono Blue Control) Deck. I had been having troubles with this version of the deck so last night I sat down and read all 33 pages of this forum. This is the current version of my crappy deck:

Deck Version 1.2 A.K.A.(B/U) Cheapo
Creatures
3x Viscera Dragger
4x Putrid Imp
3x Calciderm
1x Bringer of the Green Dawn
1x Mindleech Mass
1x Blazing Archon
2x Bringer of the Blue Dawn

Instants and Sorceries
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate
3x Animate Dead
4x Careful Study
3x Brainstorm
2x Sickening Dreams
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
2x Echoing Truth

Land
10x Swamp
7x Island
Sideboard
2x Sickening Dreams
4x Last Rites
2x Echoing truth
3x Smother
1x Calciderm
1x Animate Dead
1x Viscera Dragger
1x Swamp

The reason I was running all of the Counterspells was because I was trying to make my deck defensive against the MUC deck. After reading over 600 some comments I have come to find that this deck is supposed to be aggressive.

Viscera Dragger. I loved this card. Draw a card then hit for a quick 3 damage. I think I have to take it out though 

The fatties I used were just ones I had lying around. Calciderm was my answer to SSS but now I realize that was dumb because he ate up my reanimate spells and was easily chump blocked.

17 lands? I don’t know, I guess if I run more than 17 I usually get 4 land in my opening hand which I don’t like with this deck.

So here is the deck I hope to build:

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Brainstorm
2x Intuition

Artifacts:
3x Grafted Wargear

Enchantments:
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
3x Oona's Prowler
3x Brain Gorgers
3x Bogardan Hellkite
3x Simic Sky Swallower/ Empyrial Archangel
3x Garza Sol, Plague Queen/ Bringer of the Blue dawn

Lands:
10x Swamp
7x Island

Sideboard:
4x Extirpate
4x Echoing truth
2x Intuition
3x Show and tell
2x Phantom Nishoba/ Windbrisk Raptor

But I still have a problem. Will I be able to beat this MUC Deck? The only times I seem to win is win he isn’t getting land or counterspells. He runs 4 each of FoW, Spell Snare, Counterspell, and Tormod’s Crypt. By the time and if I am able to play a creature, he usually has a Vedalken Shackles. What is my solution to that? SSS and Extirpate are the only things I can think of at the present moment. Oh maybe even Turn to Mist?

Also are the fetch lands needed to make this deck work?

Also the Shroudimator deck that lolosoon posted. Correct me if I’m wrong but the only way you are going to be able to bring the creatures with shroud into play is with exhume and Show and Tell, right? Reanimate would be targeting those creatures so it wouldn’t work.

Some creatures I was also thinking about were:
Rakdos the Defiler- Why would you want to sacrifice your own stuff? good question. But what about against landstill decks?

Magus of the Mirror- I know burn was a concern. Would this do anything or is it’s toughness pretty much going to get it killed before you can even do anything anyway.

Thraximundar- I really don’t remembering hearing what the outcome of this card was.

Go ahead and let me know what you think. I’m ready to learn what you may know!

Edit: Nevermind the Shroud question, I figured it out.

John Rohan
06-17-2009, 06:18 PM
Go ahead and let me know what you think. Im ready to learn what you may know!


My 2 cents:


1. You don't need Grafted War Gear. Your fat creatures should be great enough all by themselves (but if you were equipping, Umezawa's Jitte is a better choice).

2. A few more lands. You may be ok with 17 lands against a MUC deck, since the game can drag out, but you would be in serious trouble against many others.

3. You can use Reanimate and Animate Dead on shroud creatures. Abilities such as shroud aren't active while the creature is in the graveyard.

4. Some other answers to MUC: Defense Grid, Mishra's Factory, and more unearth creatures (Extractor Demon is probably the best one).

5. Chalice of the Void is good against Tormod's Crypt. But if your opponent is already packing 4 of them, then he's expecting you to play reanimator. Try using a different deck! LOL

enemyofarsenic
06-18-2009, 03:40 AM
My 2 cents:


1. You don't need Grafted War Gear. Your fat creatures should be great enough all by themselves (but if you were equipping, Umezawa's Jitte is a better choice).


I believe the Grafted War Gear was intended to combo w/ Bogardan Hellkite to be reanimated for 5 more damage. It also beefs up PImps and OProwlers.

John Rohan
06-18-2009, 07:53 AM
I believe the Grafted War Gear was intended to combo w/ Bogardan Hellkite to be reanimated for 5 more damage. It also beefs up PImps and OProwlers.

I don't understand how it would especially work with Bogardan Hellkite.

Sure it can beef-up the smaller creatures, and be useful sometimes, but the main mission of a reanimator deck should be to get the fat creatures out as fast as you can and then protect them once they are out. Every equipment in the deck is one less card slot dedicated to making that happen. IMHO.

arebennian
09-06-2009, 05:42 AM
Yes I am aware that this thread is dead, but I thought I would stick this here for the slight interest anyway

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182098



Iona, shield of Emeria 6WWW

Legendary creature - Angel

Flying

As Iona, shield of emeria enters the battlefield
chose a color.
Your opponents can't play spells of the chosen color.
7/7

Mystical_Jackass
09-09-2009, 12:19 AM
Hell yea I saw that one! Epic ownage. How fast can I get that one out, I'll trade half my life I dun care lol


Auto-discuss

HedleyKow
09-09-2009, 02:55 AM
Iona, Shield of Emeria seemed really over powered at first glance, but then I realized most decks have their removal in their off color. So, you can either prevent them from playing their primary color, and risk having it be removed, or prevent them from playing their removal, which is pretty much like having shroud.

That being said, I do think it's strictly superior to Simic Sky Swallower, because in the second situation it's generally going to be like a SSS with an extra power and toughness, and if you're facing a mono colored deck it's pretty much an auto win. So basically, versus most decks it'll be a slight better version of SSS, will only be worse versus a deck with two different colored spot removal(such as a b/w deck), and strictly superior versus mono colored decks and decks that are mostly one color.

Seems like it'll be the go to reanimation creature now, and a strong addition to the deck, though I don't think it'll be enough to make reanimator viable by itself.

Mystical_Jackass
09-09-2009, 01:14 PM
It's like a meddling mage on steroids... pick their hate, they can't play it! Its superior 'cause you can shut down their hate (innate shroud) and many spells from their deck at once. Damnation & WoG wouldn't even be safe :laugh: ; I really can't wait to try this chick out (heh, that sounded dirty) @.@

I could see this general being banned in EDH fast, maybe not, but against mono or even dual colored decks this would be pretty brutal if they dont run colorless removal like duplicant

Darkenslight
09-10-2009, 08:27 AM
If only you could name artifacts for Iona...then it would be much better as a reanimate target. As it is, it's a very good hoser.

Mystical_Jackass
09-10-2009, 02:18 PM
I don't really see where that would matter, since it only prevents them from playing that color the rest of the game. Most artifacts off top of my head (vial, trini, chalice, etc.) would only make a difference if they got out before you reanimate anyways.

Duress should remove any artifact hate unless they go first AND are able to get it out, in which case you're just SOL. Otherwise that should clear up cards like chalice & give you a good idea what deck they're running if you choose to reanimate the angel

roflwaffles
09-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Iona should definitely be included in new renditions of Reanimator. However, most of the time you will most likely be naming white or blue, cutting off opposing counters and StPs. This basically gives all your fatties shroud. The only reason Akroma, Angel of Wrath isn't run in the decklists shown in this topic is because of StP and bounce. An untargetable Akroma would be absolute house and quite possibly one of the strongest assets Reanimator has.

However it is hard to acknowledge Iona without acknowledging its synergy with another creature....Painter's Servant. Having both Iona and Painter's Servant in play effectively shuts off your opponents entire deck and hand. Reanimating Iona and naming white or blue will probably clench the match for you if followed up by a Painter's Servant, naming white or blue as well.

This brings us to another card that has long since been dismissed in any competitive format.
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/UZ/Victimize.jpg

Here is a build I am currently trying out, though it is far from being complete

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
3x Watery Grave
1x Island
4x Lotus Petal

4x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3x Painter's Servant

4x Careful Study
4x Intuition

4x Mystical Tutor
4x Oona's Prowler
3x Painter's Servant

4x Putrid Imp
4x Reanimate
2x Exhume
2x Victimize

Mystical_Jackass
09-16-2009, 10:29 AM
yo, you forgot 1x Grindstone! :cool:

I like you're thinking that looks like a cool deck and I love Victimize, although I'd cut putrid imp or prowler for hapless researcher 'cause the card is friggin bomb, just superior imo 'cause it allows you to cycle through your library quicker.

You really need brainstorm in the deck especially with fetches, I switched from ponder to brainstorms and it helped my deck a lot for setting up the combo, maybe dont run mystical tutor.

I'd either cut back on intuition or run rituals, too. You can still ritual with blue mana, and float black mana to reanimate I do it all the time but I also run 3 buried alive/2 intuition so I dunno, but speed is everything in this deck so I go for the 'win before I lose approach' and so far my deck has done very well so, I dunno, just a thought.

Linkin Pac
09-18-2009, 12:12 AM
Entomb is unbanned!

This is the greatest possible news for this archetype!

roflwaffles
09-18-2009, 07:05 AM
The unbanning of Entomb is the single best thing to happen to this archetype in a very long time. This deck can now play very much like the 2001-2003 Reanimator decks from Extended, which are much more consistent than the current build that requires Putrid Imps and 4 copies of Akroma/SSS/Inkwell/Bogardan/Archangel.

After testing out the following build, I can verify that it plays almost identically like Extended Reanimators before Entomb's restriction. In the past years, there has been little printing of cards which accelerate the deck's purpose, aside from bigger and better fatties.

U/B Reanimator 2k9

Mana (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
4x Swamp
1x Island
1x Watery Grave

Spells (31)
4x Brainstorm
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Careful Study
4x Mystical Tutor
1x Show and Tell
1x Sickening Dreams
1x Chain of Vapor
4x Force of Will

Creatures (12)
4x Hapless Researcher
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Verdant Force
1x Blazing Archon/Woodfall Primus/Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sundering Titan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

Reanimating Iona consistently on turn 2 is absolutely devastating to most decks. Against a mono-colored deck, they will usually just scoop unless it is something like Ichorid of 43 Lands. Naming blue shuts off all counters in the format and assures that your own Force of Will resolves in case you want to counter a Swords to Plowshares.

Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal would have been included but I couldn't make room in the deck. While the infamous Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume combo is indeed very powerful, I needed enough blue cards to fuel Force of Will. Force of Will is much more potent than the likes of Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy because well, a topdecked StP or Diabolic Edict is horrible to face against when your opponent has 6 life left and your Akroma just got removed.

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 09:51 AM
Hoorah!!

That is awesome news! I can replace a few cards I dont need, maybe even cut intuitions. Turn1 hellkite overlord puts a smile on my face :)

AngryTroll
09-18-2009, 10:31 AM
U/B Reanimator 2k9

Mana (18)
Creatures (12)
4x Hapless Researcher
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Verdant Force
1x Blazing Archon/Woodfall Primus/Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sundering Titan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria


Aren't you basically always going to Reanimate either Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, or Iona? Verdant Force and Sundering Titan (two of my all time favorites) seem weak, as does Hellkite. I mean, Verdant Force is pretty great on turn one against Goblins, but Akroma is better. When is Verdant Force better than Akroma? And blowing up lands is fun, but your opponents will always be able to float mana to kill Titan. I get that Hellkite kills Goyf and Tombstalker on the spot, but...meh.

Thunder Dragon doesn't kill Tombstalker, but saves you from Goblins and Merfolk. I think I might run 1 Akroma, 1 Inkwell Leviathan, 1 Empyrial Archangel, 1 Thunder Dragon, and 1 Hellkite, and I'm not sold on the Dragons.

That deck is also severly lacking in Thoughtseizes. Force is great, but I think I'd like to add some more disruption to it.

Philipp2293
09-18-2009, 11:07 AM
Iona should definitely be included in new renditions of Reanimator. However, most of the time you will most likely be naming white or blue, cutting off opposing counters and StPs. This basically gives all your fatties shroud. The only reason Akroma, Angel of Wrath isn't run in the decklists shown in this topic is because of StP and bounce. An untargetable Akroma would be absolute house and quite possibly one of the strongest assets Reanimator has.

However it is hard to acknowledge Iona without acknowledging its synergy with another creature....Painter's Servant. Having both Iona and Painter's Servant in play effectively shuts off your opponents entire deck and hand. Reanimating Iona and naming white or blue will probably clench the match for you if followed up by a Painter's Servant, naming white or blue as well.

This brings us to another card that has long since been dismissed in any competitive format.
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/UZ/Victimize.jpg

Here is a build I am currently trying out, though it is far from being complete

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
3x Watery Grave
1x Island
4x Lotus Petal

4x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3x Painter's Servant

4x Careful Study
4x Intuition

4x Mystical Tutor
4x Oona's Prowler
3x Painter's Servant

4x Putrid Imp
4x Reanimate
2x Exhume
2x Victimize

Hm, this post gave me some new ideas, thanks!

Esper3k
09-18-2009, 11:10 AM
Wouldn't Hellkite Overlord be better than Akroma? Both dodge Snuff Out, both die to StP, but Overlord just hits harder...

conboy31
09-18-2009, 11:13 AM
My brother rarely plays magic but when he does he straight uses illegal decks, neither of us cared. One of the ones he used was essentially legacy reanimator with 4 entombs. The deck is annoyingly strong preboard against quite a few decks and almost all decks not running blue.

shaneswa
09-18-2009, 11:16 AM
Iona should definitely be included in new renditions of Reanimator. However, most of the time you will most likely be naming white or blue, cutting off opposing counters and StPs. This basically gives all your fatties shroud. The only reason Akroma, Angel of Wrath isn't run in the decklists shown in this topic is because of StP and bounce. An untargetable Akroma would be absolute house and quite possibly one of the strongest assets Reanimator has.

However it is hard to acknowledge Iona without acknowledging its synergy with another creature....Painter's Servant. Having both Iona and Painter's Servant in play effectively shuts off your opponents entire deck and hand. Reanimating Iona and naming white or blue will probably clench the match for you if followed up by a Painter's Servant, naming white or blue as well.

This brings us to another card that has long since been dismissed in any competitive format.
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/UZ/Victimize.jpg

Here is a build I am currently trying out, though it is far from being complete

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
3x Watery Grave
1x Island
4x Lotus Petal

4x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3x Painter's Servant

4x Careful Study
4x Intuition

4x Mystical Tutor
4x Oona's Prowler
3x Painter's Servant

4x Putrid Imp
4x Reanimate
2x Exhume
2x Victimize

If you cut the # of painters back to 4 you should be able to fit a grindstone or two in there. Or maybe a 5/5 split with Iona.

electrolyze
09-18-2009, 11:38 AM
With the new shaz going on, I wanted to update my list too:laugh: (like everyone else who test/plays this deck).

This is my list:

4xputrid imp
4xcarefull study
4xentomb!

4xcabal therapy
4xbrainstorm

3xbogardan hellkite
3xinkwell leviathan
1xakroma, angel of wrath
1xempyrial archangel
1xiona, angel of ?
1xhellkite overlord

4xreanimate
4xexhume
2xanimate death

4xunderground sea
4xpolluted delta
2xbloodstained mire
6xswamp
3xisland
1xwatery grave

I really like this list. With the coming of entomb it goed consistently t2 fatty. And I can also run more 1-offs because of entomb, which is great for a kind of toolbox.

Any comments? Maybe some more iona's or other creatures?

conboy31
09-18-2009, 11:52 AM
4xunderground sea
4xpolluted delta
2xbloodstained mire
6xswamp
3xisland
1xwatery grave


I am confidant that 20 lands is wrong. The explosion of 1st or 2nd turn hasted 6's and 8's hitting ones face needs a) lotus petals or B) dark rituals.

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 11:56 AM
The unbanning of Entomb is the single best thing to happen to this archetype in a very long time. This deck can now play very much like the 2001-2003 Reanimator decks from Extended, which are much more consistent than the current build that requires Putrid Imps and 4 copies of Akroma/SSS/Inkwell/Bogardan/Archangel.

After testing out the following build, I can verify that it plays almost identically like Extended Reanimators before Entomb's restriction. In the past years, there has been little printing of cards which accelerate the deck's purpose, aside from bigger and better fatties.

U/B Reanimator 2k9

Mana (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
4x Swamp
1x Island
1x Watery Grave

Spells (31)
4x Brainstorm
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Careful Study
4x Mystical Tutor
1x Show and Tell
1x Sickening Dreams
1x Chain of Vapor
4x Force of Will

Creatures (12)
4x Hapless Researcher
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Verdant Force
1x Blazing Archon/Woodfall Primus/Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sundering Titan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

Reanimating Iona consistently on turn 2 is absolutely devastating to most decks. Against a mono-colored deck, they will usually just scoop unless it is something like Ichorid of 43 Lands. Naming blue shuts off all counters in the format and assures that your own Force of Will resolves in case you want to counter a Swords to Plowshares.

Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal would have been included but I couldn't make room in the deck. While the infamous Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume combo is indeed very powerful, I needed enough blue cards to fuel Force of Will. Force of Will is much more potent than the likes of Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy because well, a topdecked StP or Diabolic Edict is horrible to face against when your opponent has 6 life left and your Akroma just got removed.


You seem to have a pretty similar spellbase that I had in mind, I like your list I think its pretty good.

Although, I do run Duress instead of Force of Will. I dont have any FoW.. but honestly I dont know if I'd run it if I did 'cause my deck pretty much combos off so fast, the cards practically fall outta my hand by turn1-2 lol.
Actually, I dont even maindeck duress just bring it in game 2-3 for the hatin', most decks I go against game1 are just sitting ducks, they aren't usually prepared so I figure just go for the kill then worry bout it game 2.

I also run 17 lands and 4 Lotus petal. Yeah.. I dont regret it though 'cause I've wiped players out turn1-2 game one, and the explosiveness is so worth it :smile:

Mr. Fix it
09-18-2009, 12:47 PM
welcome back: only difference is that was a vintage deck.

http://morphling.de/deckarchives.php?deck=21

I may actaully start playing this now that entomb is back from the graveyard.

13 creatures
3 Iona
2 angel of despair
2 phantom nishoba
1 sundering titan
1 yosei morning star
4 squee goblin nabob

10 instant
4 entomb
4 dark ritual
2 brainstorm

19 sorcery
4 exhume
4 reanimate
4 careful study
4 duress
3 cabal therapy

4 enchantment
3 zombie infestation
1 dragon breath

16 land
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
2 island
2 swamp
4 wasteland
2 cephalid colosseum

verdant force and dread return might be good synergy. I haven't played this in a long time.

Bastian
09-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Quoting Queena from Final Fantasy IX

"me so happy"

About Exhume's unban.

I love Reanimator decks, but without either Vampiric Tutor or Entomb the deck was pretty much dead...

Obviously I doubt that we're ever seeing Vamp back, but we have Entomb!!

This is what I assembled...

ENTOMB REANIMATOR
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
2 Island
4 Chrome Mox

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria*

4 Careful Study
1 Sickening Dreams

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
3 Spell Pierce*
2 Thoughtseize

SB
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Mindbreak Trap*
...

Cards marked * are from upcoming Zendikar.

With Entomb we don't need to run many creatures. Old extended decks used to run about five when Entomb was extended legal. Five is more than enough.

My picks are:

Akroma - obvious choice. I actually thought about the red variant from Planar Chaos, but it wasn't worth the trouble since anything with shroud is just better.

Hellkite Overlord - 8cc creature, just like Akroma. That means that if reanimated you don't lose more life, and you really don't lose less either. It's a larger creature than Akroma, and kills faster than Akroma. I might actually end either replacing him or her for something better.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind - akroma, in an artifact shell. It has vigilance, first strike and protection from green. This thing can attack, block and gain up to 12 life between your attack and your opponent's attack phase. It has protection from green, so even if your opponent managed to drop a couple of Tarmos then this would block one and the lifelink lifegain would make up for the unblocked Tarmogoyf.

I thought about Empyrial Archangel for the Sphinx's slot but it's too slow and under the right circumstances it can be killed with too much damage... I don't think it's worthwhile. Same for Blazing Archon, Phantom Nishoba... all of which are just weaker choices than the Sphinx.

Iona, Shield of Emeria - It's a 7/7 angel that reads: "As Iona, Shield of Emeria enters the battlefield, choose a color. Your opponents can't cast spells of the chosen color."

So even if you call blue, you still are able to play blue spells while your opponents are not. Pretty much good against anything! Its effect is so powerful that it should win games on its own unless the opponent has an off-color answer to remove Iona from the game or return it to your hand.

Simic Sky Swallower - was Inkwell. The extra 2 damage from a possible Reanimate felt too much. Went back to Sky Swallower but might trade it for something else later on.

The rest of the deck is pretty self explanatory. Lots of cheap card draw/discard, lots of cheap disruption and Mystical Tutor...

We don't have Vampiric around and Lim-Dul's Vault, although reasonably priced and more powerful tutoring effect has a life cost attached that makes me frown for the same reason I didn't pick up Inkwell Leviathan. Against some decks you don't want to be losing life that fast when reanimating a single fatty can take you to 10 life, if you already used a fetchland or you Thoughtseized...

But since all the important spells are either instants or sorceries - Entomb, Reanimate and Exhume, Mystical fills up the holes and allows you to get the pieces you don't have in your hand.

I picked up Spell Pierce from Zendikar because it's a cheap and useful counterspell early on. For U you can counter any non-creature spell unless your opponent pays 2 extra mana. Early on this should be good enough to stall or stop anything dangerous from hitting play since the deck aims to be as fast as possible.

Mindbreak Trap because the deck hates combo and doesn't have a better tutor to get silver bullets in hand. Plus, if combo goes off the spell costs only 0 to cast.

The deck feels as solid as is, with fast card draw and lots of disruption... But... I do have to say I have a feeling someone will probably manage to bend Entomb in somekind of Sutured Ghoul deck.

Up 'till then this feels like a nice revamp on an old favourite :)

keys
09-18-2009, 04:22 PM
If I were to run five 1-of fatties they would be:
Inkwell Leviathan
Empyrial Archangel
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Utility: Bogardan Hellkite/Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus/Sundering Titan

FoW should be in here.
Daze is still better than Spell Pierce at protecting your turn 2 play.
Thoughtseize is better than Duress in the offchance that you need to aim it at yourself.
A single Wipe Away to search out with Mystical is probably a wise idea.

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 04:56 PM
I don't see the point of MD Duress. Unless your meta is just Blue blue blue.. most players are just gonna sit in awe when you drop a turn1 skywallower or Primus <insert :O!>


Thoughtseize is better than Duress in the offchance that you need to aim it at yourself

That's actually a really good point :wink:

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 05:02 PM
EDIT: bleh double post.

Oh yeah, I suggest hapless researcher too he's really good for a few reasons!

-Provides blocker later game, to stall
-his mini-careful study ability makes good secondary turn1 quick drop
-use reanimate on him instead, late game, when your low on life and 'reanimate' becomes a dead option @.@

MMogg
09-18-2009, 06:24 PM
No mention of Mox Diamond? :eek: It's great with Entomb. Turn one Mox, Swamp = Entomb, Reanimate --> Akroma, attack. Eat it aggro. :tongue: :

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 06:42 PM
"low land count". That paraphrases that answer :\

keys
09-18-2009, 06:54 PM
No mention of Mox Diamond? :eek: It's great with Entomb. Turn one Mox, Swamp = Entomb, Reanimate --> Akroma, attack. Eat it aggro. :tongue: :

Chrome Mox is better acceleration.

Regarding Hapless Researcher, I think he's decent but probably not strong enough to warrant inclusion. As I see it the deck is pretty full:

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
fatties - 5

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Mystical Tutor
combo - 18

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
1 Show and Tell
1 Sickening Dreams
1 Wipe Away
protection/utility - 15

4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
3 Island
mana - 22

Mystical_Jackass
09-18-2009, 07:06 PM
Don't you think careful study warrants more creatures?

keys
09-18-2009, 07:37 PM
I suppose Strategic Planning could be better. But Careful Study works well as a filter too, and it pitches to Force.

You have 9 creatures (5 + 4 entomb), 8 reanimate effects, and 6 ways to dump creatures into the yard if you draw them, plus 2 Mystical to grab any of those.

roflwaffles
09-18-2009, 08:27 PM
Aren't you basically always going to Reanimate either Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, or Iona? Verdant Force and Sundering Titan (two of my all time favorites) seem weak, as does Hellkite. I mean, Verdant Force is pretty great on turn one against Goblins, but Akroma is better. When is Verdant Force better than Akroma? And blowing up lands is fun, but your opponents will always be able to float mana to kill Titan. I get that Hellkite kills Goyf and Tombstalker on the spot, but...meh.

Thunder Dragon doesn't kill Tombstalker, but saves you from Goblins and Merfolk. I think I might run 1 Akroma, 1 Inkwell Leviathan, 1 Empyrial Archangel, 1 Thunder Dragon, and 1 Hellkite, and I'm not sold on the Dragons.

That deck is also severly lacking in Thoughtseizes. Force is great, but I think I'd like to add some more disruption to it.

I originally ran Verdant Force because my initial list had Contamination...however with no Vampiric Tutors there's no way to fetch a singleton of it so I'm gonna cut the big Force. This makes room for another fattie...between Blazing Archon/Woodfall Primus/Sphinx/Hellkite? I don't have a sacrificial engine so I'm gonna stick with Hellkite Overlord/Sphinx. Reanimating Akroma turn 2 and Hellkite turn 3 wins the game. However, I want to somehow fit Archon for the Ichorid matchup, which can completely dominate this deck.

Thunder Dragon may indeed be better than Bogardan. I never thought the Hellkite was that great in earlier builds of Reanimator and I hadn't considered the possibility of Thunder Dragon yet, but it does look interesting. Sickening Dreams does do a great job at eliminating weenies though.

-1 Verdant Force, +1 Hellkite Overlord

I'm not 100% sold on Thoughtseizes, though if I do run them I'd probably run them over Hapless Researcher or Brainstorm. Brainstorm is probably the weakest card in the deck, as Careful Study trumps it. Hapless Researcher acts as Careful Studies 5-8. It has been VERY useful but 4 might be overkill.

Maybe I will try out -2 Hapless Researcher, -1 Brainstorm, +3 Thoughtseize

The decklist I am using has one nuts draw, which is
Underground Sea, Underground Sea, Careful Study, Reanimate, Reanimate, Akroma, Hellkite Overlord.
Turn 1: Play Underground Sea, play Careful Study, drawing two cards and discarding both of your hasty fatties. Pass.
Turn 2: Play Underground Sea, cast Reanimate on Akroma, and another one on Hellkite, going down to 4 life. Swing for a lethal 20 for a turn 2 kill. Highly unlikely to get this draw though.

Here's some random goldfishes to turn 2-3 to show how consistent the deck has become with Entomb unbanned.

Hand #1: Entomb, Polluted Delta, Reanimate, Exhume, Exhume, Hapless Researcher, Bogardan Hellkite
One land opening hands are acceptable cause well...most of the cards cost only one mana. Keep.

Turn 1: Play Polluted Delta, Sac for a Swamp, Entomb Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Pass
Turn 2: Draw Hellkite Overlord. Cast Reanimate on Akroma. Swing 6. Pass.
Turn 3: Draw Underground Sea. Play Hapless Researcher, sacrifice it, drawing Reanimate and discarding Hellkite Overlord. Reanimate Hellkite Overlord going down to 3 life. Swing for a lethal 14 damage.

Hand#2: Reanimate, Swamp, Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, Show and Tell, Mystical Tutor, Force of Will
Turn 1: Play Underground Sea. EOT play Mystical Tutor for Entomb.
Turn 2: Draw Entomb. Play Polluted Delta, sac for a Swamp. Play Entomb for Iona/Akroma/Inkwell. Play Reanimate with Force of Will back up.

Hand #3: Exhume, Exhume, Island, Show and Tell, Polluted Delta, Polluted Delta, Sickening Dreams. No Entomb/Mystical Tutor and no creatures to discard for Sickening Dreams. Would have to draw a creature in the next 2 turns to play a turn 3 Show and Tell while having the first two turns devoid of any play. Mulligan.

Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Swamp, Mystical Tutor, Entomb, Island
Keepable.
Turn 1: Island. EOT Mystical Tutor for Reanimate
Turn 2: Draw Reanimate. Play Careful Study drawing Force of Will and Polluted Delta. Discard Swamp and Hapless Researcher. Entomb some random fat.
Turn 3: Draw Brainstorm. Reanimate fattie with Force of Will backup.

While Entomb doesn't skyrocket it to DTB status, it definitely makes like a viable archetype and MUCH more consistent.

roflwaffles
09-18-2009, 09:00 PM
2 mana for a one shot discard engine seems to clunky. If you are spending 2 mana, you generally want to use that to reanimate a fattie. This deck wants 4 Mystical Tutors. It acts as a virtual Vampiric Tutor without the life loss, being Entombs 5-8 and Reanimators 9-12.

MMogg
09-18-2009, 09:18 PM
"low land count". That paraphrases that answer :\


Chrome Mox is better acceleration.

I always find I don't want to be removing playable cards from my hand for mana, and I'd rather use lands drawn. That's not sarcasm, I just find I get screwed with Chrome Mox more often than Mox Diamond. Almost the entire deck consists of 1 and 2 CC spells, so without being disrupted you only really need one land drop and a Mox.

Mr. Fix it
09-19-2009, 12:48 AM
I suppose Strategic Planning could be better. But Careful Study works well as a filter too, and it pitches to Force.

You have 9 creatures (5 + 4 entomb), 8 reanimate effects, and 6 ways to dump creatures into the yard if you draw them, plus 2 Mystical to grab any of those.

would strategic planning put this deck over the top for 8 draw and dump spells?

Jayzonious
09-19-2009, 01:56 AM
So I'm having trouble with my sideboard. Not sure what I'd take out to put in, also not sure what types of cards to run. Input would be greatly appreciated.

16 Lands

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
2x Swamp

4x Chrome Mox

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Duress

1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Angel of Despair

SB:
4x Chain of Vapor -4 Brainstorm(Mirror/Leyline of the Void)
4x Stifle -4 Brainstorm (Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Mana Denial/Tricks)
2x Sickening Dreams -2 Careful Study (Creature Heavy Aggro)
4x Pithing Needle -4 Daze [ On the draw (Relic/Tormod's Crypt)]
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury -1 Angel of Despair (Bounce/Swords/Path Proof)

This deck seems to have very little wiggle room for it to remain consistant.

roflwaffles
09-19-2009, 06:27 AM
You're gonna want Blazing Archon to deal with Ichorid, that match-up is hideous.

Echoing Truth>Chain of Vapor. Drawing Chain of Vapor past turn 3 after you've reanimated a fattie allows them to bounce your fat, which is not good.

Personally I'll be using Mindbreak Trap in order to stop Storm combo decks.

I usually take out all Brainstorms after the first game....perhaps a transformational sideboard would be interesting

electrolyze
09-22-2009, 05:48 AM
I like that lists with force and more protection.

I only think mox is not needed, you barely go t1 fattie, and its a huge card disadvantage I think.

You are already very fast, so its better to focus more on consistency.

This is my new list, and I really like it so far:


protection:

4xforce of will
4xduress

reanimate:

4xreanimate
4xexhume
2xanimate death

dump - in - grave cards:

4xentomb
4xcareful study

Filter cards(aka,cantrips):

4xbrainstorm
4xponder

Creatures:

8x fatties
This configuration I still have to decide what's best.

lands:

4xsea
4xdelta
1xflooded strand
1xbloodstained mire
4xisland
4xswamp

No good side yet.

With the many cantrips you find all the important stuff really quick, and it makes you consistenter too.

I'm still thinking to put some mystical tutors in the deck, but have to decide what to cut.

roflwaffles
09-22-2009, 06:28 AM
Cut Ponders for Mystical Tutor. Ponder is really just a bad Brainstorm anyways...which isn't even as good as Careful Study in this deck.

Darkenslight
09-22-2009, 07:54 AM
I wonder if Thirst for Knowledge would be useful, or Murmurs form Beyond? Both are instant speed discard which is very useful in playing Reanimator.

roflwaffles
09-22-2009, 09:38 AM
For three mana, Intuition is much better. Instead of random cards, it serves as a tutor for specific pieces that you need.

And I feel even that is too slow. Careful Study is the best card advantage this deck gets, at one mana. Digging two cards deep and being able to discard fat is amazing synergy already. Mystical Tutors should allow you to set up your reanimator combo quite easily.

Thirst for Knowledge would be viable in a Teen Titans-esque build, using artifact lands/mana and Goblin Welder to bring out big robots from the grave like Sundering Titan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and Inkwell Leviathan. However this would probably be more fragile and slower than the standard U/B Reanimator.

There is absolutely NO reason not to include Iona in a deck that brings out large fatties early. It is quite possibly the best fattie ever printed. If the reanimate on Iona resolves, it single-handedly tears apart most decks. Goblins, Eva Green, Storm combo, amongst many other decks, are completely decimated if Iona resolves. However, I expect to see more Stifles effecting the metagame due to new enemy fetchlands.

Madmaniac21
09-22-2009, 11:04 AM
For everyone who keeps putting in thoughtseize over duress; stop it. You don't care about your opponents creatures when you're playing reanimator.

DireLemming
09-22-2009, 11:22 AM
For everyone who keeps putting in thoughtseize over duress; stop it. You don't care about your opponents creatures when you're playing reanimator.
But you do care about your own. Thoughtseize can be used as a discard outlet in a pinch.

Joe Eigo
09-23-2009, 03:25 AM
I'd put in more creatures to not end up pitching away important spells instead of the fat. That's what Careful Study is for.
I don't really like Daze in here. It's like in 50% of the time it will be useless, cause everything will be based on that single spell (FoW, StP, PtE, ...) and if your opponent is smart, he will not run into it.
Thoughtseize is mich better protection and another discard outlet, which can win games sometimes. I'd start with this list:

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Swamp
16

4 Chrome Moxe
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
38

2 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Empyrial Archangel
6

Looks like the Extended Reanimator lists from 2001... Didn't appear anything useful for the deck in the last 8 years ?

roflwaffles
09-23-2009, 06:40 AM
Not really...there hasn't been anything printed in the past years that is better than Reanimator engine of Reanimate/Exhume/Entomb. Dread Return is the only actual decent reanimator spell printed lately and thats just because it combos well with Dredge/Cephalid decks.

The real question is...is there a legit reason to play this over Ichorid? Ichorid consistently kills much faster and can also reanimate Iona to shut down a mono-colored deck.

kikkofrio
09-23-2009, 07:10 AM
I'm actually trying a little different configuration, as Reanimator would be a combo deck.

I think the optimal creature number is 2/3. 2 is better, but often we would a different solution from shround.

So, this is my list

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [DD2] Island (1)
4 [ALA] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria**
1 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant :wink: (try it before comment :cool: )
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Entomb
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 Spell Pierce**


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
4 open slot

HPB_Eggo
09-23-2009, 09:23 AM
Spell Pierce seems like a smart decision, seeing as, as has already been pointed out, you don't care about your opponent's creatures. In fact, you only really care about removal and counters, which Spell Pierce can help deal with.

So, if you're playing Daze, Spell Pierce basically seems better, and is probably a good SB option if you don't have room for it MD.

Jeff Kruchkow
09-23-2009, 10:38 AM
I'm actually trying a little different configuration, as Reanimator would be a combo deck.

I think the optimal creature number is 2/3. 2 is better, but often we would a different solution from shround.

So, this is my list

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [DD2] Island (1)
4 [ALA] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria**
1 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant :wink: (try it before comment :cool: )
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Entomb
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 Spell Pierce**


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
4 open slot

Relying on just entomb is a poor decision. Get some careful study or intuition in that list.

AngryTroll
09-23-2009, 11:35 AM
Relying on just entomb is a poor decision. Get some careful study or intuition in that list.

I don't think Careful Study is very good in lists with only three or four creatures. Ponder will be better almost all of the time you cast it. I Googled "60 card deck probabilities" and used a calculator I found...if you run four creatures, lose the die roll (and draw first), and cast Careful Study (so you've seen 7+1+2 cards), what are the odds that you'll have found a creature to pitch to Careful Study? I get 53%.

If I run that again, with 4 Careful Study and 4 fatties, I get a 24% chance of having both in the first ten cards (which is cheating, because you really need Careful Study in the first eight). On the play, that's 20%. Ponder will be better most of the time you cast Study.


I like Intuition, but the problem with Intuition is that if you search for your three fatties, the one you need is going to your hand. You could Intuition for Entombs, or have some redundancy in your creature base, but neither one of those sounds very impressive.

Sorry I don't have any more constructive help. A card like Buried Alive or Tog seems better than Careful Study, though.

roflwaffles
09-24-2009, 12:41 AM
Why do you think 3-4 creatures is the optimal build in the first place? What do you do when you're facing Ichorid and you're facing 11 2/2 Zombies ready to smash you into the ground? Or when MonoGreen Chalice Aggro brings out a turn 2 Progenitus via Natural Order? Or a turn 2 Stifle+Dreadnought?

Reanimator is not the only way to bring out giant fatties, other decks are now capable of bringing out the biggest fatties in the game; creatures that far outclass the ones Reanimator uses. No one creature that can be reanimated can end the game in two turns, aside from Sutured Ghoul and the like, which we are not using. In order to compensate, we should have a tool box approach instead of just using 3-4 of the best creatures.

Say you're on the draw. On turn 2, your opponent brings out Progenitus/Dreadnought. Turn 2 Iona/Inkwell will not save you from this. Blazing Archon will. Visara/Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair would take care of Dreadnought. The unbanning of Entomb has enabled Reanimator to use a toolbox approach and we should abuse that to the best of our ability.

Intuition is too clunky at three mana. Entomb and Mystical Tutor do its job more effectively at lower mana costs.

kikkofrio
09-24-2009, 03:45 AM
Playing only 2-3 creature, I have more slot for distruption and protection of combo my combo.

Playing Iona and Leviatan, I don't worry about apponent Stp, and I can focus all my resurces on opponent's play.

In addition to that, I play this deck as I would play a Vintage Oath, so I don't want to see my creature in hand.

Having a creature in opening hand is a mulligan at 6, and playing a study don't give me any effective advantage.

Dark ritual is too strong. I often take it with tutor to make in second turn ritual-seize entomb reanimate.

With enough protection, 8 free counter and 7 brain/ponder, playing tyrant is fantastic. Try it please.

Anyway, please give me a full-creature list.

UberNewHacks
09-24-2009, 03:18 PM
This was my pet deck for AGES! I loved it so much. Problem is, it just can't be consistent. At all. Even with Entomb. I put so much thought, I played every possible combination of colors, and admittedly I was not as good a player, I still failed. It just is not consistent enough. You use 3 cards to get a creature out and they counter the final spell. Or you draw all reanimators or all discard/deck to graveyard or too many of the creature of choice and get screwed. Entomb doesn't change that much :[

roflwaffles
09-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Vintage Oath runs Hellkite Overlord in order to kill as fast as possible. There are many games where the Oath player activates his Oath plan only to lose because it simply does not kill as fast. Legacy follows a similar speed. Inkwell Leviathan and Iona, while resilient, will not be nearly as speedy.

The main problem I have against a 3 creature Reanimator is that it has basically zero chance of winning against Ichorid in game 1, whereas a toolbox with say, Thunder Dragon or Blazing Archon would have much more of a chance. An auto-loss to a popular archetype is severe.

Dreadstill also tears it apart, as it runs more counters, more draw, and a creature bigger than anything Reanimator and pull out of the grave.

Also, if you are only running Entombs as your sole graveyard enabler, you NEED to run a Mystical Tutor-toolbox with Wipe Away and the such. Meddling Mage for Entomb = gg. Also if you are really running it as a pure combo deck. Why not just use Iona + Painter's Servant + Tidespout/some board clearer. Iona+Painter's basically does win the game assuming your opponent doesn't already have board control.

After playing around with Daze, I don't feel it is at all suited for this deck. Most things that you would want to counter, such as Edict and StP cost very little and the opposing player usually would not need to tap out. If you want another free counter, I'd rather go with Misdirection.

Tidespout Tyrant is very interesting though, I will try it out.


Here are the reasonings behind the creatures that I would use.

Akroma/Hellkite Overlord: Pure speed. Against decks that dont pack StP, reanimating one after another usually means a fatal 20 damage in two turns.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind: A better Phantom Nishoba. Beats Goblins to death. Laughs at Tarmogoyfs. Vigilance is the shit. Also makes sure the life loss from Reanimate doesn't bite you in the ass.

Blazing Archon: GG Ichorid. If aggro cannot answer this, they die.

Iona, Shield of Emeria: We've all been through why this is awesome.

Inkwell Leviathan: this too.

Thunder Dragon/Crater Hellion/Bogardan Hellkite: sometimes aggro can make more things than you can deal with and run you the hell over.

Woodfall Primus : Permanent control. I would DEFINITELY run these if I were using Cabal Therapy. I almost want to cut some Thoughtseizes and Hapless Researchers in my build for Therapies in order to accommodate this guy. Tidespout might be a legit replacement though.

Woodripper/some artifact/enchantment killer: Reanimator doesn't like to face Dreadnoughts.

MMogg
09-24-2009, 05:51 PM
This was my pet deck for AGES! I loved it so much. Problem is, it just can't be consistent. At all. Even with Entomb. I put so much thought, I played every possible combination of colors, and admittedly I was not as good a player, I still failed. It just is not consistent enough. You use 3 cards to get a creature out and they counter the final spell. Or you draw all reanimators or all discard/deck to graveyard or too many of the creature of choice and get screwed. Entomb doesn't change that much :[

Well, Entomb allows you to tutor for your creature, allowing you to run only 2-3.

I ran Reanimator and Angry Hermit when they were Extended legal and I had no problems with consistency in general. Of course, at that time there was Vampiric Tutor in addition to Entomb. :cry:

IsThisACatInAHat?
09-24-2009, 06:17 PM
This was my pet deck for AGES! I loved it so much. Problem is, it just can't be consistent. At all. Even with Entomb. I put so much thought, I played every possible combination of colors, and admittedly I was not as good a player, I still failed. It just is not consistent enough. You use 3 cards to get a creature out and they counter the final spell. Or you draw all reanimators or all discard/deck to graveyard or too many of the creature of choice and get screwed. Entomb doesn't change that much :[
Originally, I was trying to think of all the reasons I could to prove this statement wrong. Entomb's unbanning got me more excited to play than anything else since I started Legacy.

So, I did some goldfishing (shuffle and play 100 hands, which may not be statistically significant, but I will run the numbers with pure stats later to check my results) with entomb reanimator. I used: 4x tutor, study, entomb, exhume, reanimate, FoW, brainstorm, duress, 5 creatures and 1 show & tell (22 land manabase). Every card in the deck is geared toward getting the combo off as fast as possible or protecting it as well as possible. There are no fewer than 8 cards for everything I need: protection, discard, reanimation, tutoring. In some cases I have more.

As much as I hate to say it, my results found the above completely true. Reanimator (for me) wasn't just inconsistent, it was slow.
-About half the time I didn't get to choose what creature to reanimate. If I couldn't draw or tutor entomb, it was whatever I drew in my opening 7 or off careful study. Not cool.
-More than half the time, I went off without protection. A single hard counter (not something crappy like daze or cursecatcher, but something like counterbalance or FoW) would have screwed me because the combo basically dumped my entire hand.
-Usual turn to go off was 3-4. That's not just slow, it's solidarity slow. ANT/NLS/TES and all those can consistently go off on turn 2. And that's with 20 damage to tendrils, not just casting a 6/6 or 7/7.

The problem I saw was that the combo just needs too many pieces to be put together. The combo needs 3 pieces to assemble: discard/ pitch (entomb, study), reanimate, creature. A tutor can find 1 of those, but assuming you optimize your manabase to draw 2 lands in your opening 7, thats 5 cards to draw 3 different pieces, plus any protection you might need. To me, what makes DTB decks so good is their ability to consistently draw winnable hands no matter the combination of pieces they have. So what if Zoo never sees burn, it has creatures. Or Merfolk doesn't see folk, it has counters and super CA to find them. Even combo decks like ANT have fewer prerequisites for going off. Of course 1 card won't make reanimator a DTB, but still needing so many pieces with so few ways to consistently draw them for a turn 1-2 fattie is discouraging.

I haven't given up on the archetype yet and I'm completely open to the fact that my draws may have been skewed (though 100 draws was an awful lot to do with paper magic and the results were generally consistent with the amount of cards dedicated to whatever purpose).

So, what about fitting stiflenought in the reanimator shell? Stifle has been suggested as a useful SB card, so adding +3 dreadnoughts (or moving all 7 to the MD) could be a useful second win condition, especially since dreadnought only pings you for 1 with reanimate. It's just another creature and stifle is useful protection if you draw it without nought.

I also haven't used hapless researcher, though I don't know if he's the right panacea (though digging + discard is a nice effect and both are needed). I agree with a toolbox creature base, but I don't think the creature base is the problem. I think ensuring the combo goes off and does so as fast as possible is more important, but I haven't found a way to do this yet. I just don't see what the point of playing this over ANT or Ichorid is if both of those are way more consistent and considerably scarier to face than a single fat creature (even if it has shroud or other anti-removal built in).

MMogg
09-24-2009, 09:13 PM
@ IsThisACatInAHat?: if you were to stick to Dreadnought only creatures maindeck, you could run Unearth instead of Exhume.

Has anyone tried mono black Reanimator? As in just putting in more reanimation effects and discard to power through the counters instead of trying to play control on their home turf so to speak. I think I'll need to try that.

IsThisACatInAHat?
09-24-2009, 10:26 PM
@ IsThisACatInAHat?: if you were to stick to Dreadnought only creatures maindeck, you could run Unearth instead of Exhume.
I meant to suggest adding dreadnought in addition to the others, not instead of. Dreadstill is a obviously much, much stronger shell for stiflenought alone; I only meant to suggest that it could be added because stifle's in the deck (or SB) anyway and dreadnought fits rather seamlessly. The idea behind it is much easier to reanimate dread+ expensive fatty than 2 expensive ones (with dread, reanimate can be used twice without risking losing to a single burn spell, otherwise it can only be used once and then you basically need to wait for exhume to bring another guy back). I'll try testing it but I suspect needing yet another card will make it unsuccessful. I'm just trying out as many possibilities as I can to make the deck more powerful.

Has anyone tried mono black Reanimator? As in just putting in more reanimation effects and discard to power through the counters instead of trying to play control on their home turf so to speak. I think I'll need to try that.
This is my next project, as I retried my above list with -2 swamp/-2 island for 4 putrid imps and the average turn to reanimate fell to 2 (especially if I wasn't picky about exactly which creature came back). I only did ~20 or so trials though, so results are inconclusive. Still, careful study is an important discard outlet even if FoW and brainstorm can be dropped for a monoblack version. I've been looking through old pages of '01-'03 extended decks to find what they used in both types (monoblack and b/u splash).

I think monoblack may have a lot of trouble finding the pieces without vampiric tutor, which is essentially filled by mystical tutor in b/u splash (old extended decks didn't run both even in the b/u splash).

In any case, even with the best versions I've been able to find yet, after turn 2 my entire hand is gone (supposing combo+1 piece of protection), so if my opponent has more than 1 answer (say, counter+ removal, 2 counters or 2 removal, all of which are common) then the deck basically flounders and dies.

roflwaffles
09-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Dont play monoblack Reanimator. The deck NEEDS Mystical Tutor. If Vampiric Tutor was unbanned, then I could see monoblack working, but without it, it becomes terribly inconsistent.


I tried the following, using the 2001 Infestation Reanimators as a shell.

Mana (22)
18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

Spells(28)
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Zombie Infestation
3x Buried Alive
3x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Contamination

Creatures(10)
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2x Krovikan Horror
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Nether Spirit
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon
1x Thunder Dragon

The deck was stupidly inconsistent. Without tutors/draw, the deck is trash.

The problem with Reanimator isn't that its inconsistent. Actually with Mystical Tutor and Entomb, its stupidly consistent. It's that it generally loses to top deck removal and counters. 4 FoW isn't enough to win counterwars, and Duress/Thoughtseize doesn't take care of topdecks.

Reanimator is still a Tier 2 pet deck I'd say, but there's no reason to run it over Ichorid/Cephalid Breakfast aside from personal attachment.

Speed is a big reason to not run Reanimator, simply because it uses alot of resources to set up a combo that generally doesn't win until 2-4 turns after it is executed. Reanimating Hellkite and Akroma afterwards is the only 2 turn win condition it has, and doing so probably requires you to go off without protection.

Once they unban Hermit Druid, which I assume they will soon, Angry Ghoul might be more viable but it's alot harder to pilot and one slip makes you lose the game. In a field full of StP and counter, it might not really be that strong. That, and a Narcomoeba strategy would probably replace the Reanimator strat.

Still, just because its not a DTB doesn't mean it wouldn't be a fun time piloting it, since it doesnt actually AUTOlose to any deck.

Vacrix
09-25-2009, 02:49 AM
im testing this right now:


4 lotus petal
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
2 swamp
2 island

1 empyrical archangel
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 inkwell leviathan
1 blazing archon
1 sundering titan
4 putrid imp

4 careful study
4 brainstorm
4 entomb

4 thoughtseize
4 stifle

4 reanimate
4 exhume
3 animate dead

SB:
15 slot

so far ive tested a few games against zoo. beat the living shit out of it. all you need is to go for archangel or archon with protection and you are in the clear, though fast leviathan works too.

my game against gobs/elves will try to be to go for iona fast, or archon, or archangel.

my game against control is shifty right now. hopefully i can get the jump on them with stifling fetch land or opening with thoughtseize and then going for archangel or leviathan or titan.


ive been getting consistent turn 2 or turn 3 with protection at this point. quite a few times too i get turn 1 with a lotus petal and either a creature in hand, putrid imp, and reanimate, or entomb and reanimate.

entomb is unbelievably good and so far im liking the tool box. keep in mind all of you that are running just like 2 or 3 creatures taht you will get all your win cons raped by grave removal or that new kicker 7 black spell taht removes 3 cards from your library.

Gheizen64
09-25-2009, 05:06 AM
Currently i'm testing a monoblack list with beseech the queen instead of vampiric tutor and dark ritual to power up the occasional first turn discard + something else.

Beseech is slow compared to vamp, true, but nonethelss i'm liking it. 6 duress effect are usually enough for me to go through countermagic.

Greenpoe
09-25-2009, 11:05 AM
Why not run Street Wraith? I run 4x in my reanimator and it helps. I think that reanimator needs more mana acceleration than people have been giving it (lotus petal, dark rit, or even chrome mox).

DCTopTeam
09-26-2009, 02:51 AM
First off, congrats to the un-banning of Entomb. My Re-An pieces are now gonna be off the card album. Now, if I may suggest some "new combo:"



Kokusho in the gyard, re animate him and play this

Rite of Replication 2UU

Kicker 5

Put a token that is a copy of target creature onto the battlefield. If Rite Of Replication was kicked, instead put five of those tokens onto the battlefield.

Dark Ritual to pull it off?

IDK if this seems viable im not that familiar with the UB Re-An since the banning of Entomb.

roflwaffles
09-26-2009, 08:51 AM
Maybe in casual, competitively using that doesn't seem like it would be very good at all

John Rohan
10-01-2009, 10:17 AM
Now that this thread's been "reanimated", I see some good discussion.

Just my 2 cents:

1) I'm glad to see that some people see the incredible value of Sphinx of the Steel Wind. When I first mentioned it in this thread, I got bashed for it. They are a salvation against Goblins or Burn decks (see next point). Iona is really incredible too.

2) Why not reconsider Reanimate? I really don't like this card, and greatly prefer Animate Dead/Exhume/Victimize. Reanimating a creature like Iona or Inkwell Leviathan takes almost half your life, and when you add in your pain lands, you are extremely vulnerable to fast decks, especially Burn. Against Burn you die so quick you won't believe it. The other problem is that if you draw it later in the game, you probably won't have enough life left to even use it.

3) Someone mentioned Victimize. The card is better than it seems at first glance. Cards like Bogardan Hellkite, Angel of Despair, or Sundering Titan are still awesome even if they come into play tapped. Plus Victimize has a better chance of getting past a Counterbalance than Reanimate or Exhume.

4) Entomb is unbanned (yay!). Keep in mind that it's not just a faster version of Buried Alive. It can put any card in the graveyard, not just creature cards. That means that you simply have more options with cards that can work from/be pulled from the graveyard, like Dread Return, Anger, etc. There are a lot of combos here, and I'm just starting to work them out.

5) Someone mentioned Street Wraith. If you are going that route, I think Scion of Darkness is better.

5) What CatInAHat said is true. Reanimator is damn inconsistent. One thing that helps more than you might expect, is to have some cards that you can hardcast. I know Legacy is a fast format but you would be surprised how many matches drag out. And if you don't have a reanimation spell handy (or you're facing a Counterbalance), you end up wishing you were holding a Tidespout Tyrant in your hand instead of that Akroma, because you have 8 lands on the table, and you could have already cast that fat creature already.

Esper3k
10-01-2009, 10:22 AM
Just curious, but why do people like Chrome Mox over Dark Ritual so much?

It seems like the potential for a T1 Entomb+Reanimate/Exhume is just too good to pass up...

John Rohan
10-01-2009, 05:43 PM
Just curious, but why do people like Chrome Mox over Dark Ritual so much?

It seems like the potential for a T1 Entomb+Reanimate/Exhume is just too good to pass up...

It is good, HOWEVER, there is one big problem. If your opponent counters it with a FoW or whatever, you just used up at least 3 cards (Entomb, Ritual, Reanimate) in the process. Dark Rit is great, but you take a risk because this deck type already suffers from card disadvantage. And if you draw a Ritual later in the game, it's usually a wasted draw. Same problem with Chrome Mox, which unlike a land, can be countered.

AngryTroll
10-01-2009, 10:05 PM
5) What CatInAHat said is true. Reanimator is damn inconsistent.

Why is this deck considered inconsistent if Entomb Hulk is not? I've seen talk about the new Flash Hulk decks being pretty amazing, but the opinion is that Reanimator is tier three because of consistency problems. If one is super consistent, then their ought to be a way to build the other to be similarly consistent.

Mystical_Jackass
10-01-2009, 10:30 PM
It is good, HOWEVER, there is one big problem. If your opponent counters it with a FoW or whatever, you just used up at least 3 cards (Entomb, Ritual, Reanimate) in the process. Dark Rit is great, but you take a risk because this deck type already suffers from card disadvantage. And if you draw a Ritual later in the game, it's usually a wasted draw. Same problem with Chrome Mox, which unlike a land, can be countered.

That's crazy talk IMO

My reanimator's gone exactly 3-1 the last four tourneys I've played it lol (bah, always one game lol), so little consistency! :P jk

You can call it meta, you can call it w/e.. but that whole "Everyone on earth runs blue and has a FoW" counterpoint gets old when its prolly more like >10% the decks out there

1) every deck is not blue
2) those decks that are blue, not all run FoW (lossed to MUC, didnt run any funny enuf lol)
3) Used 3 cards in the process? .. they can FoW ritual.. that's one. They can let you ritual, entomb, counter your reanimator.. that's still just a 2-for-2 since you still get creature in gy.

Or you can also make use of Duress, remove their hate and combo off on them.
I really am not a fan of mox in reanimator to tell the truth

I run 3 buried alive, 2 intuition in my deck so late-game rituals aren't usually wasted 'specially with waste-hate. My 2cents

Esper3k
10-02-2009, 12:14 AM
It is good, HOWEVER, there is one big problem. If your opponent counters it with a FoW or whatever, you just used up at least 3 cards (Entomb, Ritual, Reanimate) in the process. Dark Rit is great, but you take a risk because this deck type already suffers from card disadvantage. And if you draw a Ritual later in the game, it's usually a wasted draw. Same problem with Chrome Mox, which unlike a land, can be countered.

But if they force your Reanimation spell when you're using a Chrome Mox, the net result is the same. On top of that, with Chrome Mox, you have to imprint a card netting you card disadvantage there.

Obviously, you get to keep your Chrome Mox, but that's the point of Dark Ritual - it's an accelerant to get you going as early as possible, which allows you to T1 with Exhume instead of having to have Reanimate like you have to with Chrome Mox.

Also, we're playing blue in the deck, so we're running FoW/Daze as well. With Dark Ritual, if you have Entomb/Reanimate, you even have 1 mana available to use on a Duress or Thoughtseize on top of your countermagic suite.

AngryTroll
10-02-2009, 12:27 AM
But if they force your Reanimation spell when you're using a Chrome Mox, the net result is the same. On top of that, with Chrome Mox, you have to imprint a card netting you card disadvantage there.

Obviously, you get to keep your Chrome Mox, but that's the point of Dark Ritual - it's an accelerant to get you going as early as possible, which allows you to T1 with Exhume instead of having to have Reanimate like you have to with Chrome Mox.

Either way, if your opponent Forces your reanimation spell, you and your opponent are both down two cards. With Chrome Mox, you at least have an extra mana on your next turn. That's especially important in a build that's light on land.

Esper3k
10-02-2009, 12:33 AM
Either way, if your opponent Forces your reanimation spell, you and your opponent are both down two cards. With Chrome Mox, you at least have an extra mana on your next turn. That's especially important in a build that's light on land.

True - Dark Ritual does allow you to use Exhume T1 though or protect your combo T1 with a Duress/Thoughtseize if you're playing Reanimate though.

Hawdes
10-02-2009, 01:32 AM
True - Dark Ritual does allow you to use Exhume T1 though or protect your combo T1 with a Duress/Thoughtseize if you're playing Reanimate though.

A dark ritual also allows you to have daze mana if you fear daze when you're on the draw... Something no one even mentioned... Thought I'd mention it atleast.

John Rohan
10-02-2009, 07:01 AM
3) Used 3 cards in the process? .. they can FoW ritual.. that's one. They can let you ritual, entomb, counter your reanimator.. that's still just a 2-for-2 since you still get creature in gy.


2 for 2? How do you figure that? It's 3 for 2.

You cast: Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, opponent casts FoW. Yes, you got a creature in the gy. But you also used up three other cards, severely depleting your hand. Maybe you can respond with your own FoW, but then your hand is totally empty. And that creature in the graveyard doesn't do you any good on it's own (unless it has the unearth ability) - you still need yet another card to pull it out.

And it's not only against blue. Here's another example. Let's say you are playing against threshold. Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, and you throw out Iona. Great first turn. But opponent hits it with a Sword to Plowshares. Now you just lost a freaking four cards to your opponent's one (your fat creature is removed from game). That's why I'm not a fan of using Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox in these decks. It just can't afford any more card disadvantage.

kicks_422
10-02-2009, 08:55 AM
If you're playing against UGW Thresh, and your Reanimate for Iona resolves, why would you say any other color besides White?

caenel
10-02-2009, 08:57 AM
And it's not only against blue. Here's another example. Let's say you are playing against threshold. Dark Ritual+Entomb+Reanimate, and you throw out Iona. Great first turn. But opponent hits it with a Sword to Plowshares. Now you just lost a freaking four cards to your opponent's one (your fat creature is removed from game). That's why I'm not a fan of using Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox in these decks. It just can't afford any more card disadvantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when playing against an opponent sporting white removal (the only removal capable of really hurting you big time with Swords and Path) and you reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria and you do not choose white as the color which cannot be played anymore, you just made a grave play error and you deserve to get your but kicked by Swords or Path.

I might be seeing this the wrong way, of course...

John Rohan
10-02-2009, 05:47 PM
If you're playing against UGW Thresh, and your Reanimate for Iona resolves, why would you say any other color besides White?

And...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but when playing against an opponent sporting white removal (the only removal capable of really hurting you big time with Swords and Path) and you reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria and you do not choose white as the color which cannot be played anymore, you just made a grave play error and you deserve to get your but kicked by Swords or Path.

I might be seeing this the wrong way, of course...


OK, you do the smart thing, and choose White. And then your opponent casts a Sower of Temptation, and you smack your head, wishing you had chosen Blue instead!!

Even if you threw a shroud creature out, it can still be removed with cards like Wrath of God, Evacuation, or Nev's Disk, and you have the same problem.

So no matter what you do, you can't get around the fact that this deck can suffer greatly from card disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I love this type of deck - but you have to keep all this in mind when adding in cards like Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox, which compound the problem.

roflwaffles
10-03-2009, 07:32 AM
Sacrificing consistency for speed and explosiveness is a bad idea.

While Dark Ritual->Entomb->Exhume is a powerful play if resolved, a first turn Iona really isnt THAT much more different than a turn two Iona. Its true, this deck WILL fail if it focuses all its resources on mana acceleration and the like. Counterspells and removal will cause card disadvantage that may be unrecoverable.

This is not a true combo deck, it will not kill right when you combo off and bring a creature into play. A turn 1 Akroma is not as scary as say, a turn 2 Akroma followed by a turn 3 Hellkite Overlord. Focusing on consistently being able to bring out fat is what this deck should aim for.

Animate Dead over Reanimate is an interesting idea against aggro heavy metagames.

Hawdes
10-03-2009, 07:56 AM
I just want to add that a first or second turn Ioona or Blazing archon against elf decks is a win pre board...
I lost to the B/U reanimator countless times, and after board, I can't do much with my elf deck since I don't pack creature removal in my board.
But this might not say anything since the meta isn't B/U reanimators...

So there are times that explosiveness reanimation is good. But it will be jank most of the time and the deck isn't that great in the current meta imo. But it crushes creature based decks such as Elves.

Torpere
10-03-2009, 08:15 AM
Hi, I'm new to this forum and only registered for this thread. Sorry for any grammatical mistakes, I'm Hungarian. I have this deck too. Not that consistent, but I try to make it so. Decklist:

4 Tainted Isle (*1)
2 Island
12 Swamp

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Symbiotic Wurm (*2)

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive (*3)

4 Dark Ritual
1 Think Tank (*4)
4 Putrid Imp
3 Carfeul Study
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Chain of Vapor

(*1) - Tainted Isle; I know Underground Seas and Polluted Deltas are must, but they're a bit expensive. I'm waiting for the best deal. But they are the next to get my hand on. Btw is Bloodstained Mire really that important? I know, more fetch, more filtering, better cards to draw, but how much are they better than, for example Watery Grave?
And with the release of Zendikar, more fetch with black came up. What's now? Are 8 fetches enough in a reanimator or Zen fetches will be needed too?

(*2) - Symbiotic Wurm; I use it against a Rock deck, though Iona seems as good or even better against Rock. So I may take it out.
Q regarding to fatties: How many fatties should a reanimator run? Does it depend on the metaA? I'd stick with 6-8, but I see a lot of players running 5 or less.

(*3) - Buried Alive; Most of the people(or at least in this topic), don't use it. They use Intuition instead. Why is it better?

(*4) - Think Tank; Though I can't see any of you using it, It's fun to use, it sorts out unnecessary cards like later game lands and Dark Rits.

That's all
Cheers

coraz86
10-03-2009, 12:35 PM
You guys should check out the reanimator decks from the top 8s of PT-N'awlins 2001 (http://wizards.com/sideboard/event.asp?event=PTNOR01) and PT-Houston 2002 (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/events/pthou02). Rob Doughtery, Darwin Kastle, and Dave Humpherys all ran them to top 8s. They're a little more in the mono-black control vein than any list I've seen in this thread, but I think the mtg.com match coverage and lists have some ideas that bear investigation.

Dark Ritual
10-03-2009, 12:40 PM
Intuition is instant speed and it is blue and as such can be pitched to FoW; they both do almost the same thing except intuition can also grab a reanimation spell, or anti hate, or whatever you need. IMO anyone running buried alive over intuition doesn't know how to utilize intuition or something because the card is clearly better than buried alive.

As for your list torpere why no inkwell leviathan? 7/11 shroud islandwalking trampling dude that is super good against StP and it's ilk? The card should be a staple IMO even with Iona in the deck now.

Yeah this deck doesn't need to rush out of the gates and try to behave with a combo philosophy because it doesn't win the turn you reanimate something. And I really don't like chrome mox here as it is severe card disadvantage is they qasali pridemage it or you could possibly need the card it removed later and regret it. Although I would gladly imprint a dark rit on it, dark rit and chrome mox don't belong in the deck.

John Rohan
10-03-2009, 08:36 PM
They're a little more in the mono-black control vein than any list I've seen in this thread, but I think the mtg.com match coverage and lists have some ideas that bear investigation.

Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.

Mono black - More consistent. Dark Rituals are a little more useful here, and you can use Hymn to Tourach to disrupt your opponent. In fact, you have to use card attack strategies because otherwise the deck has no way of getting rid of artifacts or enchantments.

B/G - You get many powerful tools, such as Pernicious Deed, Life/Death, and Defense of the Heart. Wild Mongrel is great too. Krosan Grip is a lifesaver against cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

B/W - You get plenty of removal against creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, including Vindicate. Tireless Tribe is just as good as Putrid Imp as a discard engine. Eternal Dragon is fantastic here. In fact, many of the best fat creatures are white, meaning that you can hard cast them as well. Examples: Akroma, Iona, Reyva Dawnbringer, Angel of Despair, Windbrisk Raptor, etc.

B/R - I haven't found any real strengths here, but if someone can think of some, I'm all ears.

coraz86
10-03-2009, 11:39 PM
Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.

Mono black - More consistent. Dark Rituals are a little more useful here, and you can use Hymn to Tourach to disrupt your opponent. In fact, you have to use card attack strategies because otherwise the deck has no way of getting rid of artifacts or enchantments.

B/G - You get many powerful tools, such as Pernicious Deed, Life/Death, and Defense of the Heart. Wild Mongrel is great too. Krosan Grip is a lifesaver against cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

B/W - You get plenty of removal against creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, including Vindicate. Tireless Tribe is just as good as Putrid Imp as a discard engine. Eternal Dragon is fantastic here. In fact, many of the best fat creatures are white, meaning that you can hard cast them as well. Examples: Akroma, Iona, Reyva Dawnbringer, Angel of Despair, Windbrisk Raptor, etc.

B/R - I haven't found any real strengths here, but if someone can think of some, I'm all ears.

I was also thinking that I'm not sure the countermagic package isn't the best option. I do like the idea of Intuition/Careful Study/Brainstorm (something like the list Peer Kroger ran at Worlds the one year that made use of Hapless Researcher, I want to say 2003), but I'm less sure about the counterspell defense.

YMG's New Orleans list included Zombie Infestation and Krovikan Horror as long-game hedges. Krovikan Horror is especially nice when someone tries to Swords your fattie (if you for some reason couldn't land a guy with shroud), or if you for some reason can't land those last couple points. From experience running variations of Sui and Exhume-based decks, I can state that the hardest part of playing a deck like this is closing the door. I can't count how many times I've gotten my opponent on their heels and gotten them below 5 life...and lost, because I kept drawing lands and Hymns and they got back into the game.

I have not had time to test this deck lately, as I have multiple jobs and some other shit going on, but I wanted to bring up the list Humpherys ran into the top 8 at New Orleans.

3 Rishadan Port
19 Swamp

1 Avatar of Woe
2 Krovikan Horror
1 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Nether Spirit
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Verdant Force

2 Animate Dead
3 Buried Alive
1 Contamination
4 Duress
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
1 Massacre
4 Reanimate
4 Vampiric Tutor
4 Zombie Infestation

SB:
1 Ascendant Evincar
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Bone Shredder
3 Coffin Purge
2 Contamination
2 Massacre
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Terror


Obviously we don't have access to Vampiric Tutor, so the board would need work, but I like the main deck. I like the deck's immunity to Wasteland and Stifle, but maybe white could give us Enlightened Tutor if we tweak the board a little. That also allows us one Ethersworn Canonist to Entomb/Exhume against combo with the option to sideboard the other three. The deck could handle Gaddock Teeg or Meddling Mage, or I guess even Iona, but it would be nice to have something to hardcast.

Red could bring Burning Wish to the table, and possibly Recoup. I don't like Recoup, but this is one of the few decks I'd think about it in, since Exhume is cheap enough that once in a while it might be useful. Red also offers Pyrostatic Pillar against combo, Pyro/Red Elemental Blast(s) against blue, Anathemancer against pretty much anything, maybe Firespout or the like against Zoo and Merfolk.

I'm not trying to completely invalidate the whole thread, but I like the direction Dark Ritual is trying to guide the deck/thread into, and I wanted to chip in a few ideas.

IsThisACatInAHat?
10-04-2009, 12:47 AM
Something else I want to bring up. I've tested several different versions of Reanimator. B/U is NOT the only option. I'm not certain it's even the best option. Mono black, B/G, and B/W also do very well.
I disagree. I think B/U is the only option. My conclusion comes from the following logic: all of the necessary cards to assemble the reanimator combo are black, so we can assume the most basic version of the deck is mono-B. But, can mono-B be successful? The old 2001-2002 extended reanimator decks show us the answer is yes. But when we build a decklist as close as possible to those and goldfish, we find that consistency is missing. Sometimes we have all the pieces we need to assemble our combo, sometimes not. Legacy is a faster format anyway, so we can't sit around drawing cards for 4 or 5 turns hoping to topdeck the last piece of the puzzle. Quick question: What card does every single T8 reanimator deck have that Legacy decks cannot? Answer: Vampiric tutor- the card responsible for those decks' consistency. Therefore, we can conclude that because a full 1/4th of our tutor/entomb/exhume/reanimate combo is missing (1/5th if you count Buried Alive, but we don't run that anyway) and there is no comparable replacement in black, we need to splash colors.

In looking for a splash, we have to consider the empty Vampiric Tutor slot first and foremost. There's also something else which we never considered in 2001-2, but need to now. Quick question: What 2 highly relevant cards appear in Legacy but not Extended in 2001-2002? Answer: Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. A quick check of the DTB shows that every deck except UGR/ UGB Thresh and Ant commonly runs one or the other (sometimes both!) MD or sometimes in the sideboard (like tribals). To me, that's un-ignoreable. For the cost of W, every deck in the DTB (except the 2 above) can 3 for 1 us (entomb+creature+reanimator) or worse (+tutors/accelerants). So those are our 2 primary concerns in considering a splash: what can it do to replace Vampiric Tutor and what can it do to protect our fattie once it's on the board?

I don't want to set up a straw man argument for other splashes, but I can't possibly see what they add. The cards you suggested didn't strike me as sensible reasons to splash.

For B/G: Deed? Enemy permanents are not a weakness of the deck. Defense of the Heart? Too expensive (no less than 2x as much as any other card we run, 4x if you don't count exhume). Mongrel? Putrid Imp is cheaper. Life/ Death? The cost of exhume, the drawback of reanimate. No thanks.

For B/W: Removal? Same argument as deed- enemy permanents are really not the issue here. Tribe? Imp is the same cost but on-color. Big creatures? We already use Akroma/ Iona, but we don't cast them anyway. The mana-specific requirement of a fattie doesn't count when you don't pay the cost.

But in B/U: We answer the consistency problem because Mystical is a direct swap for Vampiric- instant speed, CMC1, finds our combo. We also address the problem of cheap removal- huge, cheap counterspell suite in FoW, Daze and in recent testing, Intervene.

The point of splashing in the first place is to cover the weaknesses of a mono-colored deck. The way I see it, blue addresses the 2 biggest weaknesses we have- it perfectly fills the tutor gap and reasonably answers the removal problem. No other splash color even addresses a weakness as far as I can see, let alone solves it. We can't not splash, because all of the black tutors are banned or too expensive. Before anyone suggests it, using Dark Ritual to accelerate a crap tutor (Cruel, Diabolic, Grim, Rhystic), that just adds another card to the combo making it harder to assemble in the first place and puts us further in the hole if it's countered. Thus is my conclusion.

I think it's good we're looking for different ways to build the deck, but I don't think re-examining our splash color is the way to do it. To me, 4 Mystical Tutors and 4 FoW/Intervene are as permanent as 4 Entombs and Exhumes. Instead, we should contemplate what to do with the truly open slots- Reanimate might be replaceable because aggro wants the help badly (Animate Dead? OK, but is FoW/ Daze enough to stop now Pridemage and Grip on top of the Swords+Paths we already have them for? What else can we add?). Brainstorm is definitely replaceable because it's not a strong card in the deck (Intuition as an expensive tutor 5-8? Maybe, if we really want for tutors). Let me suggest putting back Putrid Imp from the pre-entomb days. I run a 9-creature build (Iona/Akroma/Inkwell/Sphinx/Archangel+ 4 Imps) and have found having discard outlet 9-12 (with entomb & study) incredibly valuable. We're going to try Krovikan Horror and Zombie Infestation next, so I'll report back on that.

I'm open to other ideas as well. This is one of my teammates' pet decks and I like it a lot too, so we've been trying tons of different cards over dozens of games lately. Any comments or suggestions either for new cards or on the logic of sticking with B/U splash I would be glad to take into consideration.

Dark Ritual
10-04-2009, 12:54 AM
Yeah monoblack could use hymn's and such.

As for a red splash: Burning wish sounds really interesting, being able to bring to your hand a reanimate, sweeper effect (like firespout or something), recoup (which is a very interesting wish target I'll admit; it is a real good swiss army knife IMO). White splash is also very interesting, but as for hardcasting iona or reya dawnbringer, good luck with that since they have WWW in their casting cost. But I'll admit tireless tribe is really good since it can chump goyfs and survive even thanks to it's discard outlet giving it +4 toughness. Only reason PImp is better is because it's more on-color since the majority of reanimator's cards are black so you could fetch a basic swamp and not miss a beat usually whereas fetching a plains could cause some colorfixing problems. Unless you're in a MU where your opponent doesn't play wasteland.

BU reanimator is just really solid because of the counter suite; along with intuition being a real beating in this deck.

I also really like red for the red elemental blast and pyroblast effects; seems like you need to resolve reanimate or exhume to win. And pyrostatic pillar against storm is really good.

Torpere
10-04-2009, 04:18 AM
IMO anyone running buried alive over intuition doesn't know how to utilize intuition or something because the card is clearly better than buried alive.
You could be right, I've never played with this card


As for your list torpere why no inkwell leviathan? 7/11 shroud islandwalking trampling dude that is super good against StP and it's ilk? The card should be a staple IMO even with Iona in the deck now.
I have it outside the deck. As well Sundering Titan, SSS, Blazing Archon, Hellkite Overlord and a bunch of other fatties. I can change the list anytime. It's just the current setup.

John Rohan
10-04-2009, 04:58 AM
For B/G: Deed? Enemy permanents are not a weakness of the deck.

Crypt? Relic? Leyline?

Also, another of the problems with this deck is getting swarmed by loads of weenie creatures (Elves, Ichorid decks, Goblins, etc). Deed sweeps these away nicely but doesn't destroy the big stuff. Try it.


Life/ Death? The cost of exhume, the drawback of reanimate. No thanks..

Life/Death has it's other ability, which is very useful late game as an alternate win condition. So for only 1 mana difference, it gives you a powerful tool. No, I wouldn't use it if you were going the pure speed route expecting to get a fat creature out on the first turn, but except for that, it's a hell of a card.



For B/W: Removal? Same argument as deed- enemy permanents are really not the issue here. Tribe? Imp is the same cost but on-color. Big creatures? We already use Akroma/ Iona, but we don't cast them anyway. The mana-specific requirement of a fattie doesn't count when you don't pay the cost.

Ahhh.... but it does! If you use this deck a lot (like me) you will find that more often than you expect, games drag out. And eventually you will have 8 or 9 lands on the table, and you would be able to hard cast that fat creature, if you had the right kind of lands. This is critical if your opponent has a Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt out. It's good to have the option open. It doesn't happen often enough that I would shift my choices of creatures just based on that, but White happens to have most of the creatures I would want in my Reanimator deck anyway, so it works pretty well. If White just had big shroud creatures too, it would be perfect.

I wouldn't replace PImp with cards like Wild Mongrel or Tireless Tribe, but there's nothing wrong with running both of them. PImp also can't chump block when your graveyard hits threshold, which is annoying.

In playtesting, these different splashes were all pretty even. You are right though that Blue has the best tutoring options. Except for that, I don't see the real advantage. I'm not sold on using a counterspell suite because it really dilutes the focus of the deck.

kicks_422
10-04-2009, 07:52 AM
Beseech the Queen has been very good in mono-black. You never tutor for anything costing more than 2 anyway.

IsThisACatInAHat?
10-04-2009, 10:18 PM
Crypt? Relic? Leyline?
Also, another of the problems with this deck is getting swarmed by loads of weenie creatures (Elves, Ichorid decks, Goblins, etc). Deed sweeps these away nicely but doesn't destroy the big stuff. Try it.
I would rather have Blazing Archon, which I think almost everyone can agree is the first slot in the sideboard, to be honest. It stops all 3 of those decks cold without breaking the reanimator strategy or splashing a suboptimal color.

I can understand the logic of an alternate win condition in Life/Death, but would counter that a bad reanimator spell with an option for a subpar second win condition is not worth its space in the deck. Zombie Infestation comes to mind as a better (and better tested) alternate win condition that fits more easily into the context of a reanimator deck (also without forcing you to splash for green). I'm not yet sold on the idea that we need one if we put enough energy into protecting the primary win condition (i.e. countermagic), but I'm willing to see if it works before dismissing it.


... eventually you will have 8 or 9 lands on the table, and you would be able to hard cast that fat creature, if you had the right kind of lands. This is critical if your opponent has a Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt out. It's good to have the option open. It doesn't happen often enough that I would shift my choices of creatures just based on that, but White happens to have most of the creatures I would want in my Reanimator deck anyway, so it works pretty well. If White just had big shroud creatures too, it would be perfect.
What about the WWW in these creatures' mana cost, though? Splashing a color in the first place opens up the deck to stifle/ wasteland and other nonbasic hate. I don't see how any deck hoping to be competitive can rely on hard casting an 8 or 9-mana creature with no less than 3 off-color mana as a requirement. I think this is why we have Show and Tell as a 1-of in the deck; it's expensive, but just in case our first creature craps out, gets stuck in our hand, we're too low on life for reanimate, or we just end up having extra mana left over, we can still get another creature on the board. Redundancy may be a necessary thing to have against strong opponents, but not in colors we don't want to be forced into playing. How do any of the above strategies "dilute" the deck less than a couple counterspells, especially if they don't accomplish our goals nearly as well. I say they "dilute" it much more than cards like Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor, which actually speed up the combo and recovery rate of the deck.

John Rohan
10-05-2009, 07:14 AM
I would rather have Blazing Archon, which I think almost everyone can agree is the first slot in the sideboard, to be honest. It stops all 3 of those decks cold without breaking the reanimator strategy or splashing a suboptimal color.

Blazing Archon is great, and that's why I run with that too (although interestingly Rodgon, who started this thread, rejected it). Plus, it's not always creatures that are the problem. Deed almost looks like it was specifically made just for Reanimator decks. It sweeps away Moxes, pesky enchantments, and many other annoying things (it will destroy Animate Dead though, which is a drawback). In fact, before B/U Rodgon orginally sucessfully played B/G Reanimator, even without Deed:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5670&highlight=reanimator


What about the WWW in these creatures' mana cost, though?

LOL, if you are playing B/W, and you have 9 lands on the table, then you will have at least 3 plains by then. WWW wouldn't be a problem.

In my experience, most Reanimator games go three ways:

1) You don't draw part of the combo or any tutors, and then the game is a quick loss.

2) You draw the cards you need early, and you win quickly.

3) You empty your hand getting fat creatures on the table, and your opponent empties his hand, stopping you from doing it. So the game drags out for a long time. But time is not on your side, because eventually he will pull out a sideboard card like Relic of Progenitus. So you need another way to get him on the table. Show and Tell does the job, but it doesn't just give your opponent something. It also costs you another card.


How do any of the above strategies "dilute" the deck less than a couple counterspells, especially if they don't accomplish our goals nearly as well. I say they "dilute" it much more than cards like Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor, which actually speed up the combo and recovery rate of the deck.

Good question, and I'll give you a specific example. Your opponent will stop you cold by playing an Ensnaring Bridge. Now, if you are using counterspells, you may be able to counter it. If you are playing B/W or B/G, you may be able to destroy it with Devout Witness or Krosan Grip. So in the case of Blue, you have to always hold back two mana free (or a blue card for FoW) to stop something like that. With White or Green, you can do it after the fact, meaning you can use all your mana each turn and play a little more aggresively.

Anyway, I'm NOT saying that B/U is a bad choice. It works great in a lot of ways. But the more I playtest, the more I'm convinced that other colors provide just as much synergy in different ways, and I just wanted everyone to know there are other choices out there.

The Legacy Weapon
10-05-2009, 04:20 PM
Now that entomb is unbanned, seems like a mono black build with dark rituals might be a more viable option. The possibility of a turn 1 dark ritual into entomb-reanimate spell is very tempting though a FoW would really fuck things up. I'll put it together and let you guys know.

Master Shake
10-05-2009, 07:56 PM
After testing my build of B/u Ranimator for the last week or so and having been asked for my build several times I've decided to post it and start getting some feedback:

Creatures

4 Iona, Shield of the Emeria
4 Tombstalker
4 Putrid Imp
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tidespout Tyrant (Formerly Verdant Force But could also be Bogardan Hellkite)

Reanimation

4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate

Other Junk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual

Lands

8 Black Fetch (Personally I play 2/2/2/2 but it doesn't matter)
5 Swamp
4 Underground Sea (If you want the basic Island I suppose you play 4 Delta, 3 other black, 4 sea 5 swamp fetch and 1 island)

Sideboard

1 Woodfall Primus
1 Necromancy
2 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Wipe Away

Philosophy

The idea with my build of the deck is that Iona, Shield of the Emeria is nearly always the best choice of a creature to put into play. having 7 power and flying is huge, that means she kills in 3 swings. Cutting off a color is the biggest part. Even if your opponent is playing multiple colors nearly no deck has removal in more than one color. Iona is also the perfect creature to bring in against combo as she will shut down whatever you need to have disabled. Even at the cost of 9 life against a deck like zoo or burn she is far too much for them to come back from in most instances.

Creature Choices (Iona explained above)

Hellkite Overlord - I wanted the biggest, hasting body available to me to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. This card does that.

Empyrial Archangel - In early builds of the deck I had both Blazing Archon and This creature. It occurred to me that in most cases, Empyrial Archangel will fulfill all the role I will need it to. She turns off burn and is immune to most removal

Sphinx of the Steel Wind - This is my replacement for the traditional Phantom Nishoba slot, having protection from green and red turns out to be amazing, not only blocking a goyf but attacking as well (all while gaining life) is really strong and I think this guy is here to stay.

Verdant Force - I was looking for a guy to dump permanents into play for things like Smokestack and Tangle Wire, and he is the biggest. Its come to my attention that this slot may be wasted and should be something else. I have a few things in mind but am open to alternatives.

Tombstlaker - I play tombstalkers where most of you are debating over Thoughtseize/Duress. I've found that most times where I'd want a Duress/thoughtseize, another reanimation spell or a Tombstalker is generally better. Tombstalker is incredibly synergistic with the deck and gives me a whole other dimension to play with, no one sees him coming and that's why he works so well. I suggest trying him out because he really can breath second life into a deck that tries to go all in.

It should be noted that my deck plays a lot more like a combo deck, and so the SB looks a lot more like a combo deck's SB. But still I haven't done much work on my SB and I'm sure it can be better I'm just not sure where to make the changes just yet. I know I haven't really added to the discussion but I hope that a person or two will take a look at my list, try it out and we can have a discussion about the idea behind it.

This is all from testing on MWS which I know isn't credible but this is a glimpse of how I have done with the deck.

Countertop (UGw/WGwb) 3-1
Dreadstill (UGR) 1-1
Merfolk - X-0 (Where X is at least 5 but perhaps as high as 10)
Goblins 5-1
Dragon Stompy 3-0
Elves (Survival, combo and aggro) 9-0
Reanimator Mirrors - 3-0
Storm Combo - 3-0
Pox 5-0
Eva Green - 5-0
Trainwreck 0-3
Landstill 1-2
Tempothresh - 1-2
Angel Stax 2-1
Metalworker decks 3-0
Burn X-0
Zoo (RGW) 6-1

Of course, like I said, this is MWS but I'm trying not to over-estimate my finishes against decks. I hope that you will give this build a try as well.

coraz86
10-06-2009, 04:39 AM
Question--if we're leaning towards chintzy outlets (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe) and thinking strongly about Zombie Infestation, does it become possible to run a Recurring Nightmare or two as reanimation spells 9 and 10 (assuming sets of Reanimate and Exhume)? I don't know if that's too situational or conditional, but it strikes me as being good with Infestation.

@Master Shake; did you ever miss targeted hand destruction (Duress, etc.)? It strikes me especially that your build might really like Unmask, but I've always been leery of relying solely on Therapy.

Benie Bederios
10-06-2009, 05:19 AM
<snip>

I was the Landstill player. It was a nice build with the Shroud creatures. Luckely my maindeck had 4 Swords to Plowshare and 3 Diabolic Edict in it. And I didn't see a Putrid Imp so I could Edict the reanimator target. I don't like Putrid Imp in the build though, but maybe that's because You didn't have them when I used Edict.

But IF you playPImp and Cabal Therapy why no Intiution. When I played against Aluren in the good ol' days the worst that could happen to me was Intuition on Therapy. Not sure if you can manage it with only 8 small critters( Tombstalker as 5-8).

Benie

kicks_422
10-06-2009, 09:39 AM
Isn't running Tombstalker as a back-up win condition kind of agaisnt the whole point of having a back-up? Sure it hits hard, and it makes use of all the used up cards in the graveyard (and between the Rituals, Entombs, and extra lands, there will always be a lot of cards in the GY) - however, Tombstalkers also suffer from the hate that's being brought in against you, which is graveyard removal.

If you'll be having a back-up win condition, I would suggest looking for something which isn't dependent on the graveyard. If that kind of win condition exists, I don't know.

Master Shake
10-06-2009, 06:11 PM
Since making my original post I've changed Verdant Force to Tidespout Tyrant. It was amazing in one game against Quinn, but other than that I've never it into play, so its about the same as Verdant Force.

@ciraz86 I've only missed Duress a very small handful of times, against combo and on turn one when I have Tombstalker, Ritual, Entomb, Reanimate.

Unmask sounds temping but I think that I would always rather have duress or thoughtseize.

@ Benie I've really liked Putrid Imp, in a vacuum he may not seem amazing but He enables more turn one and turn two explosions. and has often drawn an edict or innocent blood that was unexpected.

The problem that I see with Intuition is the fact that it costs 3, I'm using 17 lands and only 9 of them produce mana. I'm not saying that I don't ever hands 3-4 lands in play, but I am syaing that I don't want to be holding a 3 cost in my hand (Unless its Necromancy or Wipeaway, which I board in for slower games.)

@kicks 422 I've found that tombstalker is the best alternative to Tarmogoyf, any alternate win is going to be dependent on the graveyard or suck and in adding goyf to my build I would seriously dilute the mana base and open it up to wasteland which in my experience is vital to have as many basic swamps as I do.

Recurring nightmare sounds good if you're using Zombie infestation, but I don't like the idea that you can't use it with a turn 1 or 2 entomb unless you have a creature from putrid imp or Zombie Infestation.

This is my raw data of W/L from playing last night (Matches are in order) 1-0 and 0-1's are due to either an MWS mirror or someone pissed off that they lost to Iona

Doomsday Combo 2-0
ANT 2-0
mono brown aggro 1-0
Quinn the Eskimo - 1-0
Bwg zombies - 2-0
Elf combo - 2-0
UGw Countertop - 2-0
UW Landstill 2-0
Pox - 2-0
UWbg Landstill 2-1
Ubgw Landstill 0-2
Bu Reanimator 2-0
Merfolk 0-1
UGW Countertop 2-0
UGr Madness - 2-1
Ugwb Landstill 2-0
Mono Blue Faeries 1-2
W/R/g Slide - 2-0
Mystery Deck 1-0
UGb Countertop 2-1
Death and Taxes 1-0
FEB 1-2
UGw Threshold 0-2
G/W deck with knight of the reliquary and mangara 1-2
Merfolk 0-2
UGR Dreadstill 1-0

roflwaffles
10-06-2009, 06:36 PM
Every Reanimator deck wants Mystical Tutor. EVERY Reanimator deck should include blue if only for this card. It gives the deck consistency and allows you to assemble your combo much easier. Monoblack would shit itself if it wasn't able to find that Entomb/Reanimate in time. Beseech is NO replacement, at a clunky 3 mana for a tutor.

Putrid Imp seems incredibly suboptimal now that Entomb is unbanned.

Infestation is interesting but fails to the same graveyard hate. Also a Squee-Horror engine is clunky and without Vampiric Tutors, it just doesn't seem worth it. The great thing about the Squee-Horror-Infestation engine was that you could Vampiric Tutor for a singleton Contamination and clench the game.

4 Iona seems way too much. At the very most I would run 2, even though I currently run 1. Inkwell Leviathan needs to be in every Reanimator, simply for its explosiveness against any kind of removal aside from Edict. Also, you want 2 hasty creatures. Either add another Hellkite Overlord or an Akroma, Angel of Wrath/Spirit of the Night/Rorix Bladewing. Being able to end the game on your second reanimation is gold.