[Deck] Reanimator

[caenel]

@Master Shake:

I'm really fond of your list and I'd like to take it for a spin in our local testing, I just had one question though: Does your list play mana? (like lands?) I just don't seem to find them in your decklist (6 posts up). Could you please post your manabase?


Thanks :wink:

[John Rohan]

Putrid Imp seems incredibly suboptimal now that Entomb is unbanned.

Without Putrid Imp (or some other discard enabler like Oona's Prowler), fat creatures in your hand become dead cards.


Also, you want 2 hasty creatures. Either add another Hellkite Overlord or an Akroma, Angel of Wrath/Spirit of the Night/Rorix Bladewing. Being able to end the game on your second reanimation is gold.

Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Spirit of the Night are fine unless you are using Animate Dead (pro-black). Bogardan Hellkite is also a good choice here - it doesn't have haste, but it's ability works the same way.

[roflwaffles]

Which is exactly why we run Careful Study, which is far more useful than Putrid Imp. Putrid Imp nets 0 card advantage and only functions as a 1/1 or 2/2 beater. Careful Study, however, nets card advantage and digs through your deck in order to find more combo pieces. I would rather run Hapless Researcher than Putrid Imp.

[caenel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Careful Study does not net you any card advantage. It just nets you a -1 in cards (the Study itself). It does, however dig through your deck a bit deeper to find fatties.
Putrid Imp, however, usually can be used more than once, thus being the better discard outlet over time (in my opinion). Also, the value of having more than one creature on the board might come in handy against decks like Pox (Pox, Smallpox, ...) and decks sporting non-targeted single removal (like Edict).

I usually play both, but I'd say that 3 Imps and 3-4 Studies would be enough.

[Master Shake]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Careful Study does not net you any card advantage. It just nets you a -1 in cards (the Study itself). It does, however dig through your deck a bit deeper to find fatties.
Putrid Imp, however, usually can be used more than once, thus being the better discard outlet over time (in my opinion). Also, the value of having more than one creature on the board might come in handy against decks like Pox (Pox, Smallpox, ...) and decks sporting non-targeted single removal (like Edict).

I usually play both, but I'd say that 3 Imps and 3-4 Studies would be enough.

You are 100% correct so no one can correct you. Careful Study is card disadvantage.

Let's do an Oscar Tanesque look at the Math:

If you have 1 Card in hand and play Careful Study (Your one card) it looks like this:

Play Careful Study -1 (-1)
Draw 2 Cards +2 (+1)
Discard 2 Cards -2 (-1)
Total (-1)

Now the theory of Card Advantage is only relevant to Control decks where you have 0 dead cards in your deck. The argument can be made that by filtering out dead cards Careful Study can generate virtual card advantage. But when Oscar Tan was talking about Virtual Card Advantage he was talking about using cards like Humility and Moat to Blank your opponents cards, not just throwing cards into your deck that don't do anything.

Careful Study digs, yes. But its also a one shot. I'm not going to argue with anything that roflwaffles has said because he seems incredibly set into his own list.

I will however address Inkwell Leviathan. I feel that in my Build Iona takes this slot. She may not have shroud, but she has an ability that can blank an entire deck's removal. The same way that Moat creates Virtual Card advantage by turning your opponents creatures into do-nothings, she literally turns off either an entire deck, an entire deck's ability to answer her or an entire deck's ability to win. Its not shroud but it is oftentimes even better.

More Raw Data:

Uwgb Landstill 2-0
U/W Wizards 2-1
Meathooks 2-0
UG Fish 2-1
Eva Green 2-0
Train Wreck 1-2
Train Wreck 2-1 (Henceforth with Echoing Truth in board)
MUC - 2-1
Goblins R 2-0
Burn 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0
Eva Green 2-1
RG aggro 2-0
Tempo Thresh 1-2
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Reanimator Mono black 2-0

[DCTopTeam]

I dont know how the deck works. Its a Chapin Reanimator heres the link: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28918

[Nekrataal]

I dont know how the deck works. Its a Chapin Reanimator heres the link: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28918

Simply put: Hulk sets up all the creatures and with Carrion Feeder as a sac outlet and Reveillark in the grave Body Double as a copy of Reveillark can pull himself and another creature e.g. Urchin out of the graveyard repeatedly. Though I think Shallow Grave would be better than Necromancy.

[tomjulioo]

...
Though I think Shallow Grave would be better than Necromancy.

with shallow grave, you need cabal therapy in your graveyard. Necromancy needs nothing else.

[John Rohan]

Simply put: Hulk sets up all the creatures and with Carrion Feeder as a sac outlet and Reveillark in the grave Body Double as a copy of Reveillark can pull himself and another creature e.g. Urchin out of the graveyard repeatedly. Though I think Shallow Grave would be better than Necromancy.

I'm not saying you don't realize this, but there are others here who might not: Cards like Entomb will not trigger Protean Hulk's ability. He has to be brought into play first, and then sent to the graveyard.

[Bastian]

Simply put: Hulk sets up all the creatures and with Carrion Feeder as a sac outlet and Reveillark in the grave Body Double as a copy of Reveillark can pull himself and another creature e.g. Urchin out of the graveyard repeatedly. Though I think Shallow Grave would be better than Necromancy.

Shallow Grave removes the hulk from the game, hence you can't Body Double'it and get the combo assembled.

[Linkin Pac]

I have a quick question regarding Iona, Shield of Emeria. Does its "As Iona comes into play" clause make it work differently than a "When XXX comes into play" triggered one? In other words, can your opponent respond to you naming White with a Swords to Plowshares like they could for a "When XXX comes into play" or does the "As" prevent them from playing spells immediately?

Also, has anyone come up with a conclusive sideboard yet for this deck? I find one problem after the first game is deciding what kind of hate (if any at all) your opponent will board in against you. Should you always assume that they will board in hate and then board in based on your predictions? i.e., if you know they are playing black, there's a good chance Leyline might come down, so board in bounce spells. Is this guessing a good strategy? If you predict wrong, then you could run into a lot of useless Echoing Truths.

I have the following board so far:

3 Echoing Truth (Leyline, general problem permanents)
3 Engineered Explosives (Relic, Tormod's Crypt, rush swarm decks)
3 Pithing Needle (Relic and Tormod's Crypt, I've been thinking of adding a 4th)
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury (extra creature for decks heavy with white)
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sickening Dreams

Really, only the first 9 cards am I really sold on.

[Benie Bederios]

I have a quick question regarding Iona, Shield of Emeria. Does its "As Iona comes into play" clause make it work differently than a "When XXX comes into play" triggered one? In other words, can your opponent respond to you naming White with a Swords to Plowshares like they could for a "When XXX comes into play" or does the "As" prevent them from playing spells immediately?

It isn't triggered so you can't response by plowing it. Just like Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle. It can't be Stifled either

Benie

[John Rohan]

Also, has anyone come up with a conclusive sideboard yet for this deck? I find one problem after the first game is deciding what kind of hate (if any at all) your opponent will board in against you.

The two worst hoser cards against Reanimator are Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. IMO, Chalice of the Void is a great choice. For zero cost, it can stop your opponent from laying down any Crypt; for only 2 mana it will stop them from using Relic.

[JeroenC]

The problem with that is that it can't stop both at ones. Chalice seems weak in your function, I'd much prefer something like Null Rod or even Pithing Needle. Before you see which hate the other person has, Chalice is pretty useless, after all.

[John Rohan]

The problem with that is that it can't stop both at ones. Chalice seems weak in your function, I'd much prefer something like Null Rod or even Pithing Needle. Before you see which hate the other person has, Chalice is pretty useless, after all.

Null Rod, ok, but Pithing Needle? It has the very same problem that you just complained about - you can only use it against one or the other, but not both.

Also, Chalice shuts down many combo decks as well. It's also useful against Elf or Goblin decks with a lot of 1-mana creatures. For just two mana, Chalice completely stops any Dreadstill deck.

[kicks_422]

Nice. Chalice for 1. Shut off the Lackey and you shut off your Reanimate, Mystical Tutor, Careful Study..

I think you're overestimating how good Chalice is. It's a good card, but most likely not here in Reanimator.

[John Rohan]

Nice. Chalice for 1. Shut off the Lackey and you shut off your Reanimate, Mystical Tutor, Careful Study..

I think you're overestimating how good Chalice is. It's a good card, but most likely not here in Reanimator.

Well, if your opponent is playing Relic or Goblins, then in Game 2 I'm assuming that you've swapped out 1-cc spells in your deck with Chalice. I know that hurts, but it is usually worth the trade-off.

It also depends on how badly you need to protect your graveyard. If you can hardcast your big creatures, or have other ways of getting them out (Polymorph, Natural Order, etc), then Void, Crypt, or Relic aren't necessarily an automatic loss.

[Madmaniac21]

The problem with Reanimator isn't that its inconsistent. Actually with Mystical Tutor and Entomb, its stupidly consistent. It's that it generally loses to top deck removal and counters. 4 FoW isn't enough to win counterwars, and Duress/Thoughtseize doesn't take care of topdecks.

Play shroud guys. Run Spell pierce.

Going to throw a list together for tonight, see how it runs in a countertop/landstill meta.

EDIT: Does the animate dead/akroma not work anymore? And if so, what does that mean for animate/inkwell or anything else with shroud?

[Steveman]

Nope, Animate Dead / Akroma doesn't work anymore due to the new oracle wording.

Oracle text: Enchant creature card in a graveyard
When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.

[John Rohan]

EDIT: Does the animate dead/akroma not work anymore? And if so, what does that mean for animate/inkwell or anything else with shroud?


Animate Dead will work on Inkwell. It does not work on Akroma. If you use it, she will come into play, but then the enchantment will be destroyed immediately and she will go back to the graveyard.

[Master Shake]

I've been doing a lot of testing since my last posts. My maindeck has remained the same except that I've changed my manabase to:

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
5 Swamp
7 Fetchlands

And my sideboard has changed to:

4 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierece
3 Ravenous Trap/Leyline of the Void Split
1 Hurkyl's Recall

I started testing Spell Pierece as a lark, really. Thinking "I wish I could run a counterspell in my board." And what it turned into was a great all around answer for problem MUs (Chalice aggro, Stax and Dreadstill) By boarding in Spell Pierece I'm able to keep a hand on the play that doesn't put Iona into play on turn 1 becuase I will have a means of dealing with whatever piece of hate that comes down.

The Echoing Truth/Krosan Grip split is simple:

If your opponent is playing blue, you board in Krosan Grip for the hate pieces that are going to come in. If you're going to have an answer for a hate card, let's not screw around with it getting countered. Also, by default a deck that is playing Blue is going to take a little longer to win as they spend the first X turns cantripping.

ELSE board in Echoing Truth. Eva Green boards in leylines, Zoo brings in crypts. Aggro decks do... something. Whatever they are going to board in it can be hit with Echoing Truth. Truth can also bounce some creatures if you need it to. Also, not affected by chalice @ 1, and unlike Chain of Vapor, it can't be used to return a creature if they play a problem card after you have a threat down.

Just my observations from testing.

[Torpere]

Raven's Crime? Instead of Putrid Imp.
-Discard outlet.
-You can discard it for Study withoud any fuss, because it's still usable. Reanimator can do with a very few lands, so the rest can be discarded for it. And If you don't have any fatties in hand, you can get your opp to discard.
It's just sorcery speed but I think it's worth a try.
What do you think?

[Master Shake]

:0:
Raven's Crime? Instead of Putrid Imp.
-Discard outlet.
-You can discard it for Study withoud any fuss, because it's still usable. Reanimator can do with a very few lands, so the rest can be discarded for it. And If you don't have any fatties in hand, you can get your opp to discard.
It's just sorcery speed but I think it's worth a try.
What do you think?

I gave consideration to Raven's Crime when I was constructing my list but I decided to pass on it because I seldom want to be shipping my lands to the graveyard for the retrace cost and Putrid Imp blocks, which is odd to say that I want a block, but I really do.

Raven's Crime also does not allow me to discard with an Exhume on the stack (Specifically after a Crypt or Relic has been activated) which is huge.

and lastly, I use Tombstalker, so I sometimes want to be able to dump excess cards in a hurry to cast the stupid thing. Raven's Crime wouldn't afford me that ability.

Also, Raven's Crime gives my opponent the ability to choose what to discard, and I intend for them to have several dead cards against me even prior to an Iona coming into play. So the benefit isn't so hot for me.

But, perhaps it would be good in some kind of B/g Loam/Reanimator deck where you can have the solid back-up plan of using manlands and wasteland to disrupt your opponent.

That sounds interesting enough to try to assemble.

[Maveric78f]

Another problem with raven's crime is the fact that warren's weirding, edicts and gatekeeper of malakir are evil. Putrid imp is cool at this.

[Master Shake]

Another problem with raven's crime is the fact that warren's weirding, edicts and gatekeeper of malakir are evil. Putrid imp is cool at this.

I fully agree here and should have started that earlier. That have been multiple games won thanks to Putrid Imp giving his life to protect Iona or any other fatty from an untimely demise.

[Folkien]

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [u] Underground Sea
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
2 [JU] Hapless Researcher
1 [DVD] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 [CNF] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [JU] Phantom Nishoba
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Entomb
3 [DVD] Dark Ritual
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor

The snow-covered land are just fetiche.
Rushing river and wipe away are amazing when you're playing against chalice of the void.
Putrid imp and hapeless researcher are just defensive against any kind of "target player sacrifice a creature" cards.
And the fatties with shroud are just un-freaking-believable.

I don't know what could be a right side, i'm using this so far

3xShow and Tell
4xEchoing Truth
1xRushing River
3xPithing Needle
1xMolder Slug
1xBlazing Archon
1xSundering Titan

expecting feedback, saludos

[Master Shake]

I'm overwhelmingly in against using Mystical Tutor in the deck, I'm glad to see that at least you're only using it as a 2-of.

I don't know if you're really using enough blue cards to support Force of Will, but there is good news. Its called Spell Pierce. It counters everything that you want it to without being Force of Will.

As far as your creature selection - in my deck I wanted to figure out what the most important creatures to have on the table would be, for me its Iona, Shield of Emeria. I run 4 (3 right now, but that may change) to have the maximum chance of being able to discard an Iona to Putrid Imp or Careful Study and win the game with her. I suggest you find the same thing, even if you don't think that creature is Iona. You pack as many of your best creature and then back it up with a few special needs creatures.

Phantom Nishoba has happily been outclassed as the Lifegain option. You may not move on to Sphinx of the Steel Wind. It may not gain 7, or trample, but it does fly, both attack and block, have protection from Tarmogoyf and kill just about anything except Akroma before it can touch it. The only downside is that while in your graveyard all Tarmogoyfs will likely get +1/+1

I have ranted about the glories of Putrid Imp and I'm glad to see you using him, but he really shines if you can fit Cabal Therapy into your deck. Therapy is the most unbalanced discard spell ever (Aside from Balance) an if you have a creature to spare, can turn unassuming hands into devastating fits of ripping your opponent's hand apart.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I would never run FoW in reanimator, just 'case it already runs so much card-disadvantage I need all the cards I can get as is. That's just me though.. my deck literally drops its hand so fast, by turn 2-3 I'll be down to like 1 card half the time ;P

I've always been a fan of Duress, but glad Shake mentioned Cabal Therapy 'cause I was almost thinking of trying something... a friends been using Bloodghast/Cabal Therapy in a dark depths deck and its just brutal.
I'm deffinitely interested in testing Bloodghast & Therapy in Reanimator just because its that good.
If I think about it, it would work great with putrid imp as well, which can be used to throw a fatty in the GY then sac to cabal therapy. Bloodghasts offer more aggro... sorta like adding Starch to the deck to thicken it Lol, but what I mean is say I'm running careful study/Buried Alive, having cards like Bloodghast not only offer great synergy with Therapy but provide another means of beating opponent

[DeppChef]

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13569

Iona Reanimator gets 4th out of 135.

Venturini Stefano - IONA Reanimator - Top 4

1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Ritual
3 Reanimate
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Entomb
2 Ponder
2 Intuition
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Careful Study
3 Exhume
1 Wipe Away

2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Blazing Archon

Sideboard:

4 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Reverent Silence
1 Damnation
1 Wipe Away
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam

[godryk]

I'm overwhelmingly in against using Mystical Tutor in the deck, I'm glad to see that at least you're only using it as a 2-of.

I don't know if you're really using enough blue cards to support Force of Will, but there is good news. Its called Spell Pierce. It counters everything that you want it to without being Force of Will.

[...]

Phantom Nishoba has happily been outclassed as the Lifegain option. You may not move on to Sphinx of the Steel Wind. It may not gain 7, or trample, but it does fly, both attack and block, have protection from Tarmogoyf and kill just about anything except Akroma before it can touch it. The only downside is that while in your graveyard all Tarmogoyfs will likely get +1/+1

I have ranted about the glories of Putrid Imp and I'm glad to see you using him, but he really shines if you can fit Cabal Therapy into your deck. Therapy is the most unbalanced discard spell ever (Aside from Balance) an if you have a creature to spare, can turn unassuming hands into devastating fits of ripping your opponent's hand apart.

I've been trying your approach and I'm in love with Tombstalker, I think it's a clever adition which just adds consistency, allowing yo to do something while you assemble your combo pieces.

@ Creatures: Iona is obviously the MVP, just naming white against decks running white is "shroud enough". Against things like Canadian Threshold, naming blue wins you the game, and there are just too many examples. Sphinx is also nice against aggro decks not packing Path to Exile (and even against those, it can win you the game before the can exile her).

I've also toyed around with a more blue version, removing some stuff in order to pull some FoWs, Brainstorms and a pair of Mystical (mostly to up the blue count), and it hasn't disappoint me, although I haven't had a large amount of relevant testin. However I am very unsure about Dark Ritual.

[nodahero]

Just as a quick aside... Rodgon and myself both run Tombstalker in this deck over a year ago... If you do a search through this very thread you will see that. There are also alot of things noted on his use in this deck if you head back that far. You might even get some other ideas as options.

[godryk]

Just as a quick aside... Rodgon and myself both run Tombstalker in this deck over a year ago... If you do a search through this very thread you will see that. There are also alot of things noted on his use in this deck if you head back that far. You might even get some other ideas as options.

Then, thanks to both of you too for that great idea!

[Mystical_Jackass]

One of the things I found odd was the use of Careful Study with such a low creature count... only 6? Seems at best you'll only drop 1 into your GY, or zero.

This is just me, but seems like you could cut 4 thoughtseize/Duress and Mystical Tutors... at least add like 5-6 more creatures, maybe 2 Tombstalkers and a few more Fatties to assure you'll get creatures in yard.

Has anyone ever tested Wordly Tutor with careful study/hapless researcher?

[nodahero]

You guys need to either make a seperate reanimator thread or make it more distinct what school of thought you are in.

For example the builds with Entomb should not be running Careful Study. There is no need. The versions running Entomb do not need as many threats due to the tutor power of Entomb.

Decks running Careful Study need a higher threat count to compensate for the lack of tutor power.

Honestly I am preety sure the Entomb lists are strictly better than the Study lists due to their ability to set up at EOT and the extra card slots they get access to so they can have protection in the form of discard or counters.

A strength in reanimator decks is the amazing waste proof manabase. 2 colors is the most you want.

[Master Shake]

I've all ready written a tournament report here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15359

Both the guy who was recently posted on deckcheck and myself seem to think that suing Entomb and Careful Study is the best route to go.

Although I still hate the idea of using mystical tutor. I should probably at least give it an attempt at some point but it takes away all of my explosiveness.

[Madmaniac21]

Went to put this together for a tournament, realized I got rid of my playset of entombs a couple years ago, see they are now 20ish/per, wtf lame.

Will post a list I've been tinkering with - I much prefer spell pierce to FoW, and I think intuition is a must include, especially with rit. Maybe even a lotus petal or two.

6+ discard seems mandatory. Cabal therapy seems significantly weaker then duress/thoughtseize.

[John Rohan]

You guys need to either make a seperate reanimator thread or make it more distinct what school of thought you are in.

For example the builds with Entomb should not be running Careful Study. There is no need.

Depends. If you are using Putrid Imps, or some other similar creature, then you may be right. If you are not, then you need Careful Study. Otherwise, fat creatures in your hand become dead cards. Yes, you can use a Thoughtseize or similar spell on yourself, but that's a waste.

[Benie Bederios]

Depends. If you are using Putrid Imps, or some other similar creature, then you may be right. If you are not, then you need Careful Study. Otherwise, fat creatures in your hand become dead cards. Yes, you can use a Thoughtseize or similar spell on yourself, but that's a waste.

True...

And sometimes you need more than 4 Cantrips in the deck and for this deck:

Brainstorm>>>>>>Careful Study>Ponder

Benie

[Mystical_Jackass]

I've all ready written a tournament report here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15359

Both the guy who was recently posted on deckcheck and myself seem to think that suing Entomb and Careful Study is the best route to go.

Although I still hate the idea of using mystical tutor. I should probably at least give it an attempt at some point but it takes away all of my explosiveness.

Thanks for sharing, good read.

See your list looks pretty gg, it makes sense to run careful study 'cause I think I counted 15 creatures, the other guy ran like 6 creatures just seemed a lil' empty >.<

[Master Shake]

I split top 4 in my local weekly legacy, where were my match-ups:

Charbelcher - 2-0

He made 12 goblins on turn 1, I entombed a Blazing archon, he attacked, I played blazing archon and then an iona on red. Game 2 we both did nothing on turn 1, but I was on the draw so I discarded iona, he played a land grant and showed me about 5 mana and a goblin welder, he discarded belcher and passed. I reanimated iona on red and won

some random deck 2-0 - two turn 1/2 ionas

Enchantress 2-0 He didn't see a turn 2 ground seal either game or I had iona in play too quickl;y

Tempo thresh 1-2 The times I try to disrupt him he has no counters and then topdecks them. GAme 3 I lose as he brainstorms into a Force of will. Game 2 I could have won if I went for a turn 1 creature instead of cabal therapying him.

Dredge 2-1

I play blazing archon, he actually has zero outs but seems to want me to think he does. Game 2 I name bluie with iona instead of black, should have named black, end of story. Game 3 he once again had no outs to me winning the game.

That was the night.

[anonymos]

He didn't have Ground Seal in the board. We forgot to add it as we showed up late. It was the same board from Stadium the day of the Jet tournament.

[sauce]

so nothing new, slower and less consistent than dredge yet susceptible to the same old hate.
i read the iona.dec report, grats but honestly 0 cb and only once you saw relics vs you

[Arrowni]

so nothing new, slower and less consistent than dredge yet susceptible to the same old hate.
i read the iona.dec report, grats but honestly 0 cb and only once you saw relics vs you

This deck packs much more disruption than your regular Icho and in isn't hosed by Ghostly Prison, it has no problems with Ravenous trap which Icho mostly can't avoid and is stronger against wasteland.

I'm not saying the deck is going to be the next big thing, not even that it is the best graveyard-based strategy, but it certainly has its own interactions, combos and outs, and that can be a deciding factor against hate (which by itself is the bane of most gy strategies).

[Mystical_Jackass]

Ichorid aint that consistent bro.

People hate on reanimator 'cause it is good. It combos off quickly and has good hand disruption to back it up, and it can deal with many situations making it more versatile... blazing archon, brilliant dude >.>

[Master Shake]

so nothing new, slower and less consistent than dredge yet susceptible to the same old hate.
i read the iona.dec report, grats but honestly 0 cb and only once you saw relics vs you

I play against little graveyard hate because people are playing less graveyard hate. Check Deckcheck.

I played against one counterbalance deck, but as it was stated in the replies to my report, counterbalance decks are seeing less play as well.

I've tested quite a bit and it isn't my fault if I win a match before my opponent can play a Counterbalance. They should probably be playing Disrupting Shoal and maindecked Faerie Macabre.

[Oxmo39]

Hi! I’ve recently built this deck and I plan to bring it to a tournament next week.
Based on Master Shake’s list, I made some little changes. (thank you for your report, you convinved me to build this deck :tongue: )

I haven’t had much testings, and I won’t have many time to test the list before the tournament, that’s why I would like to get your thinking about it.

This is the list :

5 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta

4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead
4 Careful Study
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm

3 Tombstalker
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steal Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Empyrial Archangel

Sideboard should be something like that :

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Echoing Truth
3 Diabolic Edict


I think that the tutors and brainstorms can add consistency and more regularity to the deck. This making Putrid Imps and Animate Dead less effective.

Adding 8 blue cards make Lotus Petal a stronger choice than Dark Rituals and make also possible a T1 reanimating a fattie.

@Blazing Archon : I don’t know in which cases, I will prefer reanimate him instead of Archangel or Iona (except Ichorid)…

Thanks in advance guys!

[Raindown]

This deck format has been putting up some numbers as of late, waiting to see how the format takes her down.

[Arne]

This deck won the Open Dutch Nationals. I don;t know the exact decklist but 139 people attended and it won after 8 rounds of swiss and a top8 :D

[manugl84]

This is the list that won the dutch nationals:

4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 island
4 verdant catacomb

4 lotus petal

4 exhume
4 reanimate
1 intuition
1 show and tell
4 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 entomb
4 force of will
3 mystical tutor

2 iona, shield of emeria
2 inkwell leviathan
1 angel of despair
1 akroma angel of wrath
1 empyrial archangel

SB

3 krosan grip
4 extirpate
4 guttural response
1 infest
1 sphinx of the steel wind
2 engineered explosives

I personally don´t like the angel of despair (i´d rather run a wipe away maindeck) and I think that sphinx is better than Akroma, but this player deserves all my respect.
¿Thoughts?

[whienot]

I'll have to test this version. It's similar to a previous list that top8'd in a 100+ tourny.

I agree with you that the Angel of Despair and Akroma are better off as something else.

I'd also rather see Sickening Dreams over Infest in the Sideboard.

[Master Shake]

Obviously I'm going to say that I don't like the Mystical tutors or lack of Putrid Imp. I can see how he has just as good of a chance to do good things with Lotus Petal on Turn 1, but they all involve him having Reanimate, where exhume would be uncastable.

I don't like the 3-cost cards the game can often be too close to being lose by the time that turn comes around.

It seems like Deed in the board would be a lot stronger (I considered it myself.) But EE along with many other cards in his deck are just wrong choices.

My Current creatures:

4 Iona, 2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind, 1 Blazing Archon, 1 Tidespout Tyrant, 1 Empyrial Archangel.

And SB:

4 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierece
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River

[whienot]

Did you drop the Tombstalkers, or is that list just your reanimation suite?

I like the 2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but I can't imagine cutting the Leviathan (at least in my meta). It's my go-to against decks with Stp/Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate and Sower of Temptation.

[practical joke]

Hi, I'm the one who won the dutch open nationals. As for our meta, it's control mostly.
Mystical tutor is good in this build, on average I should have a big creature on turn 1-3 ( turn 2 mostly)

I'll say why I choose for my creature build first

Iona, shield of emeria: this shouldn't need any explanation, even though it hasn't been my most animated creature on the tournament, it still wins you games singlehandedly.
Inkwell leviathan: This is a creature no blue player can ignore, but they simply have to. it has trample, a fat behind and shroud. Most non-blue decks will have a problem with the 7 damage each turn. shame both this one and Iona, can be outraced if played from reanimate.
Empyrial archangel: this one wins soo many games simply because it has evasion, won't be killed easily and gives you a free hit and still can sit back and relax.
angel of despair: a card you won't use often but it is insane, it did win me a game or 2 by removing their threats that could've outraced me.
Akroma, angel of wrath: why this one over sphinx of the steel wind? it has haste, nothing else really matters mainboard, It's prefered to have one big fat haste creature. Against most decks that also works for sphinx, akroma also wins singlehandedly. ( goblins, zoo, aggro-loam) the haste can make this creature an unexpected finisher.

manabase:
fetch: a lot of fetch for deckthinning, shuffling and abusing brainstorm to the fullest.
bayou/underground sea: the necessary duels, while some prefer to stick to B/U, I prefer the green splash for krosan grips. decks like counterbalance can become highly difficult to beat without the grip. you will still suffer no difficulties maintaining the mana.
lotus petal: why this above dark ritual? It can produce blue and green. this way I can go off turn one with reanimate, yes it might sound horrible, but I have more discard outlets for turn 1 this way. careful study/reanimate. it also protects me just as easily from a daze if I want to cast EoT mystical tutor or entomb.
basics: the necessary basics to protect you from wasteland, moon effects and back to basics.

spells:
Mystical tutor: I use the mystical to be able to search for my combo pieces, even a Force of will, brainstorm or show and tell have been searched by it. It's much better than you would suspect. It can tutor for sideboarded extirpate and krosan grip to make the match-up better.
force of will: this is so good in reanimate, it let's you go off early with protection, or protects your creature from unexpected removal like WoG,humility,edicts or other threats. I cannot imagine having won a match without Force of will that day.
carefull study: delicious, it digs your deck, throws creature in your graveyard and even gets your creatures back into your graveyard after a bounce.
entomb/reanimate/exhume: the combo-pieces, they need no explanation itself. all 4-offs and it's more than enough.
show and tell/intuition: 3-mana spells, yes, you will be surprised how often you get there. these are the cards that gets the deck past a chalice from the void or any graveyard hate. the intuition gets the combo pieces, throws more creatures in your graveyard or can be used for a mind-game. You will be surprised how easily you can influence a game with a simple mind-trick pulled off by intuition.
brainstorm: does this need explanation? it serves as both a search engine as handprotection. what more do you want at instant speed.
thoughtseize: you can use this card for both seeing an opponents hand rip their hate out of their hands or use it as a discard engine.

Sideboard:
guttural response: this card has served me well, especially on the long games, but it will be replaced by something else.
extirpate: by far the best graveyard hate card for this deck, it beats the artifacts by miles and is questionably better than ravenous trap. I used it a lot to see opponents hands, get their searched cards with tutor back in their libraries and get their own combopieces away.
infest: it is searchable, removes a lot of goblins and more. it works pretty well
krosan grip: a very good card against dreadstill decks and counterbalance decks. it is able to remove their counterbalance or other big chunky artifact threats like dreadnaugts,crypts or relics. no counters involved :)
sphinx of the steel wind: this card is an addition to the akroma for sideboard against zoo,goblins and aggro-loam.
engineered explosives: I choose this over pernicious deed, because the deed was too slow in the end. It's good, but it has one casting cost which makes it harder to avoid any counterbalance tricks, which the EE has no problem in doing so. it's less versatile in blowing things up like the pernicious deed has, but it works more than enough for the decks I need it against. ( chalices, zoo (2 is enough), counterbalance, zombietokens or empty the warren tokens) the pernicious deed is too slow against these.

so why did I not use the following:
putrid imp:I did use this card before. In the end I couldn't make place for it anymore. It's not as good as I want it to be, because it stands still, can't block and will probably find itself target by a removal they had in hand already. It's good, but I found it's relatively slow and makes the deck go into top-deck mode to early. which I wanted to avoid.
blazing archon: this card is rubbish, it will get removed/destroyed or anything. I chose my creatures carefully on a single choice. They shall not be removed! all of my creatures, except angel of despair, have some sort of protection. This one gives me a protection the deck does not need. If you are affraid of dredge. find yourself an angel of despair and let her target herself. or beat harder than they do and get the empyrial for self-protection.
tombstalker: a good card and addition to this deck, but has one major downside. it will get the removal they haven't been able to use on all of your other creatures. sadly enough that won't suffice.

I'll post match-ups later and stuff, since my housemates demand me to join for dinner and a movie.
I'll try to discuss/answer any question or remarks you may have

Match-ups were:
The rock, 3 color (2-1)
goblins (2-1)
fairy stompy (2-0)
the rock, kotr build (2-0)
the rock, 3 color (2-1)
Doomsday ANT (2-0)
ID
ID

quarterfinals:
the rock, 3 color (2-1)

semi-finals:
Doomsday ant, same person as round 6 (2-1)

finals:
dreadstill (2-0) fastest match of the day

[whienot]

Practical Joke, thanks for coming to the thread and congrats on the win. Its good to read your explanations. Any chance you can give some detail to your matches?

I just top8'd at my local tourny tonight , losing in the top 8 to a play error.
I got paired against Affinity rd 1. That was a nightmare. Plating on Ornithopter = my guys don't attack.

[BreathWeapon]

Have you guys tried splashing red and green for Ancient Grudge? Entombing that thing is amazing post board vs aggro-control, also Red is useful for Burning Wish to give the deck some MD removal and a tutor for combo pieces like Buried Alive, Reanimate and either a Show&Tell or a variety of outlets.

[practical joke]

Instead of splashing red, I use green for krosan grip. 4 color splash is horrible for a deck taht only plays 16 lands. you will be asking for a color screw big time.
Red could be an option, but I prefer not to be to dependand on 3 colors. You will get wasted into oblivion if you will go there.

Burning wish would make the deck unnecessary slow. the deck itself does not really need a wishboard just for removal. if you really worry about anything that could outrace you, make sure you get the right creature in front of it. In my fourth game I had to get my angel of despair to get rid of something like that.

here's a short story, since I have some time now :P
it's been a while now, so I cannot remember everything.

Round 1: 3-color rock (2-1)

I'm not sure how it went, but I drop an empyrial archangel quite fast since the only thing I saw was a heath, not taking risks. I was able to thoughtseize a goyf later on and he sees no options left.

SB: out AoD,akroma,intuition. Board in, 3 extirpate. The rock is one of those matches I have to win on playing wisely instead of boarding. it has no use.

Second game is finished in short order, I keep searching for my cards in the deck, but I am unable to find a single reanimate spells. Game ends without a fight.

third game I drop an iona quite fast, he could speed it up with a single goyf, because I had to seize his 2nd goyf and a pridemage. still the goyf remains to small to strike me down. after a miscalculation, he sees no exit and extends his hand.

Round 2: goblins (2-1) I know this player, and so far the statistics haven't been very good.

he has to mulligan down to 5 cards, but is on the draw. I start with a carefull study dropping empyrial and an AoD. his turn he drops a lackey. I go off and put the AoD into play destroying his lackey, hoping to remove the speed from his deck. I was wrong, he plays another lackey the turn after. I go off again with exhume, he gets his lackey back, but I get an iona on red. we have a stalling game. In the end he had some more goblins and a vial, I drew for an exhume, drop empyrial and he's down soon.

sideboard: intuition out, inkwell leviathan out. infest and sphinx in.

He goes for lackey turn 1, I cannot go off on that turn, he wastes me twice and attacks a few times with a lackey. even removing his siegegang makes him go insane and I have no way of outracing that speed with an infest on hand and my wasted lands.

third match, i start digging for a turn 1 akroma, angel of wrath ( I choose her, for her speed and his inability to remove her) he then start vial, and some other nuisance artifacts knowing he cannot win it.


round 3: fairy stompy (2-0)

he wins the roll, and drops an island. islands are pretty good. I want to play some studies and mystical tutor. but he keeps dazing them. after that I play an entomb and go off on inkwell leviathan. I've seen a single fairy. so I knew this wasn't going to be easy. but he has no answer.

Sideboard: I have no clue, I don't think I boarded against this deck, or maybe a krosan grip or 2. being affraid of vials and spellstutters.

he start again, I have to go on a slow play since he drops a relic. I did play a careful study so a single leviathan is in there. Nothing happens untill he plays a clique, I know that he has not a counter on hand. I brainstorm into double exhume, double entomb. I reveal a hand to him with entomb, double exhume and some land,petal and something random. he chooses exhume and I draw a second entomb. next turn I play exhume, he removes my gy, After getting back priority I respond with an entomb. exhume makes me get a new inkwell leviathan. he didn't expect that to be possible due to inexperience. I explained him that i had a second one on top and he knows he couldn't have beaten that.


Round 4: Kotr rock (2-0)

Yay, more rockbuilds. These decks can be quite challenging for reanimate since they also play with graveyard cards.

In the first match I chose an empyrial archangel. after seeing him drop a knight of the reliquary, i start digging for an AoD and destroy it before it gets out of control. finish is there shorty after.

besides the extirpate board again. nothing new.

I get my ion on turn 3 on white. he has not a single option to try against me because he is facing double foW back-up.

Round 5: 3-color rock build (2-1)

round 1, I FoW his duress, and then go off turn 1 with empyrrial archangel. He cannot recover on time.

same boarding again as against the other rock fights

round 2, i know he has extirpate and a relic in play. I have double mystical tutor, he removes one. but I cannot find anything big enough to show and tell. he drops elspeth, I FoW, he drops another one and elspeth goes all the way.

round 3, I go off pretty on turn 2, after I brainstormed his duress. his extirpate on hand never did a thing.

that rock build sideboard the following inside: 2 diabolic edict, 3 pates and 3 relics if I'm right. Just the insane hate that makes it hard to play against.

Round 6: doomsday ANT (2-0)

match 1, I drop iona early, the deck has no options.

sideboard: removing some creatures, show and tell, intuition. boarding in 4 pates and a single krosan grip and the other spots went to guttural responses.

match 2, I always make this a long game, since they can bounce my iona and are able to off through FoW fights. he chants me, I fow it with a hand full of cards, he decides not to risk it. ( I had a second one ready) after a few turns he has put back up some safety in his hands, after his drawstep I extirpate his chant, I find another chant in his hand, and he doesn't take the risk of going off. also I see no blue cards. I choose iona on black and go all the way with counter-back-up.

now I have some time to relax and chill up since i can double ID myself reaching first place after the swiss with a 6-0-2 record.

quarterfinals: 3-color rock ( well hello skeggi)

it's feels like a casual match, both players enjoying the game.

I think I win game one again on an empyrrial angel which he has no answer nor speed for in time.
After sideboarding the usual rock match-up. I draw up only blanks after he removes a combo-card out of my hand. game ends quickly. got stuck on 1 single land, but was able to reanimate his goyf which he shortly swords.

the third match I seized him, saw nothing of an edict, went for iona on white.
which was allowed to go all the way when the empyrial joined ( might be wrong, my memory is pretty much blank)

semi-finals: doomsday ANT same player as the 6th round.

This time I cannot win game 1, he goes off on doomsday, I have no options.

second game goes a long way, which i always have against ant decks. A lot of countering, discarding and searching goes on. I extirpate his chants again. somehow it ends up me being able to extirpate his tendrils.

game 3, another extremely exciting game, been fowing some cards, extirpated his doomsday. I go for an iona on blue this time, knowing his mystical in hand has to be used. he searches for a chain of vapors in response of the color choise so he has a change when he digs up for a protection he can still go off. he fetches his top card. Later on I extirpate his deck again after I got some sense he topped something nice. I needed to see his hand, and went for a mystical tutor into FoW.
I draw force of will, beat him to 5 lives (or 4) and he decides to go off with protection. he expected me to counter it, which in fact I cannot, neither did I want it, because there's no doomsday he could go off with nor a good graveyard for an ill-gotten gains. he goes for the expected ad nauseam.
he needs to topdeck into enough storm to kill me without getting too many blue cards. he start with LED, top, LED after that he starts counting. I already extirpated his infernal tutors. after that he counts, knows he need to use his fetch for sure. he draws ponder, silence, something that killed him.

finals dreadstill (2-0)

I seize his hand, i see fow, stifle, fow, daze. after a long day of playing I miscalculate. I remove his daze. second turn i decide to go off for iona. he fow's, I think it's okay. ( had foW back-up, but forgot he only had no other blue cards) next turn I go off with exhume again, and he has no counters.
he scoops up his cards for g3

I board out a few cards (empyrrial,AoD, akroma, single inkwell, intuition, and a single careful study)
I board in 3 krosan grips and 3 guttural responses.
I draw pretty bad, and it goes into a long draw-go. he has a relic in play, counterbalance and top online, and 3 lands and a wasteland in graveyard. one of his lands is a mishra's. I have been spending cards to keep my graveyard filled up so he won't remove my creatures. he has a dreadnaught somewhere in the top 3 cards. He decides to tap all his lands for a crucible of worlds, I responds with a FoW, he does the same, the I respond with a guttural respone, he puts the top on his library and I respond with a mystical tutor which he dazes. he gets his wasteland back, has a 1 mana card on top, he wastes my bayou and I'm stuck with 1 basic land and he has no mana open. I start my turn, draw a land ( best thing I could've drawn) and play exhume. he has no counters left and no mana for his relic. iona on blue finishes the match.



as you see i boarded intuition out a lot, since I played against decks that I really needed my sideboard cards more. I haven't drawn into it a lot, but it helped me once to mind-trick my opponent. that's why I shall not replace it yet.

hope you liked the report

[Master Shake]

Congratulations on your finish, and thanks for posting.

I've thought about it quite a bit and I like the Lotus Petals but I'm not really sure if it is something that I would want to play, although I can see how it compliments the heavy amounts of blue.

I don't understand very well why you were playing with Guttural REsponse over some kind of discard as it can be useful in more match-ups and hit more problems cards and not require a bayou/petal to play it off of.

I feel that it was a very big mistake to not play any bounce in your sideboard and that you were quite fortunate to never have had it come up. I question a lot of your sideboarding but you are the winner of Dutch Legacy Champs so apparently it worked for you.

It seems like even in the MU where you talking about how great Akroma is, Sphinx of the Steel Wind would have been just as good or better. Both have protection from red, both are unblockable. The difference is Akroma's Haste to Sphinx's Lifelink. There have been countless times where a deck has picked pu their cards to me becuase it is impossible for them to get around the lifelink.

The matter of playing Mystical and a billion blue cards to support FoW isn't something I really want to discuss. I feel very stronghly that Cabal Therapy is the best choice for disruption. You apparently do not feel that way.

[Di]

The matter of playing Mystical and a billion blue cards to support FoW isn't something I really want to discuss. I feel very stronghly that Cabal Therapy is the best choice for disruption. You apparently do not feel that way.

I've been playing Reanimator since Entomb was unbanned, and originally felt the same way until about a week ago, and I'll at least offer my explanations why.

I was running a build similar to his Dutch winning list, except I ran a disruption suite of Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy, with a split of Duress and Therapy over Force of Will. In a majority of matchups, I often disliked the extra discard because it was generally a bad topdeck midgame and could occasionally slow the deck down on turn 1-2. Game 1 this isn't a problem as you want to see what you're playing against, but it is post-board. Most of the time, you will win game 1 and be on the draw game 2. This makes discard as disruption terrible, because they play hate before you can remove it. Force of Will is much stronger on the draw because you open the option of stopping their hate before you have a turn. Plus, it's much better against topdecks whereas discard won't do anything. The number of times I've played Force of Will against a topdecked Tormod's Crypt, Counterbalance, or Path to Exile is incredible. Also, Force of Will not only provides better options for disruption, but it also speeds the deck up. If you open a hand with Entomb and discard, it's common to lead with the discard to see what you can do and you don't Entomb until turn 2. In using Force of Will, you're free to play Entomb turn 1 while still being able to handle opposing threats, and then animate the creature turn 2 as opposed to turn 3. I find this especially important in aggro matchups like Zoo, where giving them a single turn can be an issue if they have a strong hand. Plus, it allows you to use Sphinx of the Steel Wind a bit more aggressively as you don't have to worry about topdecked Path to Exiles, which can occasionally happen. As long as you have the blue cards to support it, it does virtually nothing to hinder your disruption plan, but instead gives you the benefit to disrupt them on the draw and against topdecks, when you're tapped out, and when you want to play other spells that turn. I also find it stronger in the blue matchups due to the prevalence of Brainstorm. If you lead with discard, most especially a blind Cabal Therapy, you'll either watch them respond with Brainstorm and hide their best card, or you'll miss with Therapy. Cabal Therapy by itself can be really weak, and that's an issue if you can't hit something. Force of Will does a better job of handling these situations and allows you to play much more agressively against them as a result.

Although despite feeling Force of Will is better, I still think it's wise to run some additional discard, either Cabal Therapy or Duress, in the sideboard to supplement Thoughtseize in blue matchups. In all other matches though, Force of Will is strictly better.

[Master Shake]

I've been playing Reanimator since Entomb was unbanned, and originally felt the same way until about a week ago, and I'll at least offer my explanations why.

I was running a build similar to his Dutch winning list, except I ran a disruption suite of Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy, with a split of Duress and Therapy over Force of Will. In a majority of matchups, I often disliked the extra discard because it was generally a bad topdeck midgame and could occasionally slow the deck down on turn 1-2. Game 1 this isn't a problem as you want to see what you're playing against, but it is post-board. Most of the time, you will win game 1 and be on the draw game 2. This makes discard as disruption terrible, because they play hate before you can remove it. Force of Will is much stronger on the draw because you open the option of stopping their hate before you have a turn. Plus, it's much better against topdecks whereas discard won't do anything. The number of times I've played Force of Will against a topdecked Tormod's Crypt, Counterbalance, or Path to Exile is incredible. Also, Force of Will not only provides better options for disruption, but it also speeds the deck up. If you open a hand with Entomb and discard, it's common to lead with the discard to see what you can do and you don't Entomb until turn 2. In using Force of Will, you're free to play Entomb turn 1 while still being able to handle opposing threats, and then animate the creature turn 2 as opposed to turn 3. I find this especially important in aggro matchups like Zoo, where giving them a single turn can be an issue if they have a strong hand. Plus, it allows you to use Sphinx of the Steel Wind a bit more aggressively as you don't have to worry about topdecked Path to Exiles, which can occasionally happen. As long as you have the blue cards to support it, it does virtually nothing to hinder your disruption plan, but instead gives you the benefit to disrupt them on the draw and against topdecks, when you're tapped out, and when you want to play other spells that turn. I also find it stronger in the blue matchups due to the prevalence of Brainstorm. If you lead with discard, most especially a blind Cabal Therapy, you'll either watch them respond with Brainstorm and hide their best card, or you'll miss with Therapy. Cabal Therapy by itself can be really weak, and that's an issue if you can't hit something. Force of Will does a better job of handling these situations and allows you to play much more agressively against them as a result.

Although despite feeling Force of Will is better, I still think it's wise to run some additional discard, either Cabal Therapy or Duress, in the sideboard to supplement Thoughtseize in blue matchups. In all other matches though, Force of Will is strictly better.

My rebuttal is summed up in the rephrasing of something I've said numerous times. I play the deck like a combo deck, I want redundancy [over tutors] and cards that take my opponent out of the game for game 1 and I want to bring in answers for hate (Which more and more decks are simply not using) for games that have been sideboarded.

I'l test a list with Force of Will but I know my bias against it is going to make me unhappy with the choice unless it preforms amazingly well.

[practical joke]

cabal therapy is only good if you have either a heavy discard set-up or putrid imps.

I play neither.

I have changed my deck slightly since recently, making my counterback-up a little stronger.

I play this deck aggressively, dropping the threat as early as possible, so the opponent has to top-deck for an answer. Even then I have a good possibility of a counter.

I removed

-1 swamp
-1 intuition ( too slow)
-1 inkwell leviatha ( 6 creatures should be enough)

+ 3 daze.

this should make my match-ups faster and more controllable. as Di said, discard are a true terrible card when topdecking. you can ditch them somehow, but it still horrible. If I topdeck, I don't wanna see a daze either, but a force is always a welcome card.

Now taht I play daze the guttural's are removed, they did came in an did their job, but I will replace them with a slight testing combination of
multani's presence/show and tell/a few usable fat creatures/ 4 duress/gilded drake.

I'm not yet sure of what I need, since some match-ups might have increased a good ammount with the coming of daze. Why I play akroma mainboard above sphinx, is the haste fact. She can, compared to sphinx, come out of nowhere for an alpha strike when the opponent is outtapped. could be enough for the kill. The sphinx is good, but it's use is limited therefore he is in the sideboard, but will definately get boarded in, and be a first choise target against a few decks. sometimes it's speed> control and vice-versa.

I removed the wipe away from my deck, since I've never ever needed it at all.
I played around chalices and gy hate just as easy as fetching for your bounce was. I am considering a hurky's recall, but as long as I have show and tell mainboard, there;s no use for bounce.

Try out force of Will please, it's heavenly, you'll understand why a bigger counter-back-up is slightly stronger than heavy discard. I played heavy discard before, with less blue, and I gained some heavy beats those days.

With heavy discard you will not/hardly win from ANT or any hybrid form from it. You won't survive any first-turn kills from belcher. It's too limited for the current meta I play in.

so far another chaotic post :frown:


Let us know what you think of the force and the lesser discard once you tested it.
I have a small tournament tomorrow, so I will let you know if the results where good with the slight change and the new sideboard options ( though I expect a lot of the rock decks again -.-)

[Nekrataal]

cabal therapy is only good if you have either a heavy discard set-up or putrid imps.

I play neither.

I have changed my deck slightly since recently, making my counterback-up a little stronger.

I play this deck aggressively, dropping the threat as early as possible, so the opponent has to top-deck for an answer. Even then I have a good possibility of a counter.

I removed

-1 swamp
-1 intuition ( too slow)
-1 inkwell leviatha ( 6 creatures should be enough)

+ 3 daze.

this should make my match-ups faster and more controllable. as Di said, discard are a true terrible card when topdecking. you can ditch them somehow, but it still horrible. If I topdeck, I don't wanna see a daze either, but a force is always a welcome card.

Now taht I play daze the guttural's are removed, they did came in an did their job, but I will replace them with a slight testing combination of
multani's presence/show and tell/a few usable fat creatures/ 4 duress/gilded drake.

I'm not yet sure of what I need, since some match-ups might have increased a good ammount with the coming of daze. Why I play akroma mainboard above sphinx, is the haste fact. She can, compared to sphinx, come out of nowhere for an alpha strike when the opponent is outtapped. could be enough for the kill. The sphinx is good, but it's use is limited therefore he is in the sideboard, but will definately get boarded in, and be a first choise target against a few decks. sometimes it's speed> control and vice-versa.

I removed the wipe away from my deck, since I've never ever needed it at all.
I played around chalices and gy hate just as easy as fetching for your bounce was. I am considering a hurky's recall, but as long as I have show and tell mainboard, there;s no use for bounce.

Try out force of Will please, it's heavenly, you'll understand why a bigger counter-back-up is slightly stronger than heavy discard. I played heavy discard before, with less blue, and I gained some heavy beats those days.

With heavy discard you will not/hardly win from ANT or any hybrid form from it. You won't survive any first-turn kills from belcher. It's too limited for the current meta I play in.

so far another chaotic post :frown:


Let us know what you think of the force and the lesser discard once you tested it.
I have a small tournament tomorrow, so I will let you know if the results where good with the slight change and the new sideboard options ( though I expect a lot of the rock decks again -.-)

I am really happy with your post. I am testing UB Reanimator since two weeks and had your lists as a reference. My changes included exactly what you stated above. -1 Reanimator target (Inkwell becasue I rarely chose him). 3 Daze for 3 other cards especially Intuition (it is not a bad card it just feels to slow). I also went down to 3 Careful Study plus the fourth Mystical Tutor. Mystical is soo strong because it is virtually every card in the deck. Entomb, Reanimtor Spell, Draw, Counter. Most games are won with an opening hand fo Entomb/Mystical Tutor or Reanimator Spell/Mystical Tutor. Will post my list this evening. I also like UB more because it makes Iona stronger. Usually you have to really think about which color to take away. It is not that you go "Pick the removal color". Against Zoo e.g. I would like to pick red of course but due to PtE I actually can't. If you have force backup I can risk to actually put it on red. And btw I also play it completely like a combo deck. Assembling the two spells you need at times and in ways the opponent can react to in the most minimal way and so on. Usually there is a fatty out Turn 2/3 latest even if you play around Daze/Counters (of course if you have backup yourself).

[practical joke]

the problem I had with 4 mysticals I had to often, is that I drew 2+ with the cards you'd normally search for.
So till that time I play 3, but replacing a careful study with a mystical doesn't even sound that bad, actually it's pretty good.

you'll see me change that pretty soon, or I change a 4th careful study into the 4th daze, but I'll go for 4 mysticals first. Might be a good idea to change for tomorrow :)

[Di]

My rebuttal is summed up in the rephrasing of something I've said numerous times. I play the deck like a combo deck, I want redundancy [over tutors] and cards that take my opponent out of the game for game 1 and I want to bring in answers for hate (Which more and more decks are simply not using) for games that have been sideboarded.

I play the deck like a combo deck too, primarily because, it is a combo deck. Playing Force of Will doesn't change that premise. It doesn't turn you into a control deck. I listed several reasons to support this. If we were playing Flash, would you be running discard over Force of Will? No. You play Force of Will because it allows you to continue playing your combo game very aggressively while being able to disrupt the opponent for free. Playing discard in those slots slows you down, and then opens you up to topdecked answers, neither of which you want to happen as a combo deck. It's worse that you actually admit a bias can skew your testing results, because it's stifling innovation and arguably stronger slots simply because you don't like it. That, to me, is unacceptable in deck design and progression. But again, you haven't tested the card and come back with results, so I suppose we can wait until you do so before making such judgments.

Regarding Mystical Tutor, that's a different subject that you're more qualified to object to, because it comes down to design and playstyle preference, and not out of actual experience. It becomes a matter of redundancy v. consistency. Running Mystical Tutor really opens you up to more consistent turn 2/3 combos because odds are you will find another combo piece either through opening hand or from a turn 1-2 cantrip. That makes Mystical great in that sense. But it hurts the redundancy of the deck because you have to cut down important slots to make room for them. So again, that's a personal choice with what to take. For me personally, I'd rather have the consistency though because it has better odds in comboing in the first place.


the problem I had with 4 mysticals I had to often, is that I drew 2+ with the cards you'd normally search for.
So till that time I play 3, but replacing a careful study with a mystical doesn't even sound that bad, actually it's pretty good.

This is an issue I also had with Mystical Tutor, so I cut them down to 3. Opening multiples is just terribly slow and is too predicatable for the opponent to see what you're trying to do. It's turn 3 at best, which isn't terrible, but usually by then I'm already looking to reanimate a second time.

[Folkien]

I have try the deck with daze, but it was before the unban of entomb, I think I'll give it a try again, cause I always played with FoW over tseize or therapy.
But I think is better to have a big amount of creatures to pick up in the first game, and then replace them with side. I play the followins creatures on MD:

3 Iona
1 sphinx (thinking on the 2nd one due to my meta)
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empyrial archangel
1 blazing archon
2 tombstalker
3 putrid imp

I personaly think that tombstalker is a great plan B or a "turn giver" when you dont have the pieces of the combo, but thats just me.

I use 2 mystical tutor, I don't think is really necesary 3 or 4.

[The Pharmacist]

I have try the deck with daze, but it was before the unban of entomb, I think I'll give it a try again, cause I always played with FoW over tseize or therapy.
But I think is better to have a big amount of creatures to pick up in the first game, and then replace them with side. I play the followins creatures on MD:

3 Iona
1 sphinx (thinking on the 2nd one due to my meta)
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empyrial archangel
1 blazing archon
2 tombstalker
3 putrid imp

I personaly think that tombstalker is a great plan B or a "turn giver" when you dont have the pieces of the combo, but thats just me.

I use 2 mystical tutor, I don't think is really necesary 3 or 4.

I really don`t think Daze is good at all in this deck. The last thing you want to do is put land back in your hand. The hole point on this deck is to win fast.

[damionblackgear]

Daze seems just fine when almost all of your deck costs <3. Mos of your plays will take place regardless of you missing the land. It also comes in handy when someone try's to force your relevant spell because tapped out on turns 1 or 2.

[Nekrataal]

Daze seems just fine when almost all of your deck costs <3. Mos of your plays will take place regardless of you missing the land. It also comes in handy when someone try's to force your relevant spell because tapped out on turns 1 or 2.

The only substitude for Daze would be Spell Pierce. I don't play it because with a usual hand I am able to combo Turn 2/3. With 2 lands on the average and 2 lands needed to combo Daze kann backup your play whereas no mana is left for Spell Pierce. If you have 3-4 lands Spell Pierce is better but usually you neither have nor want 4 lands. Against decks like Zoo I would board Daze and play something more relevant. Maybe anti-crypt hate or Show and Tell.


I really don`t think Daze is good at all in this deck. The last thing you want to do is put land back in your hand. The hole point on this deck is to win fast.

Daze is only for protecting your combo not to proactively counter things your opponents play. At least game 1. Game 2 that maybe different if hate enters play. If not played around Daze can hit that as well. Apart from that I wouldn't waste daze to win time usually since I want to combo quickly and then protect the pieces in play.


I have try the deck with daze, but it was before the unban of entomb, I think I'll give it a try again, cause I always played with FoW over tseize or therapy.
But I think is better to have a big amount of creatures to pick up in the first game, and then replace them with side. I play the followins creatures on MD:

3 Iona
1 sphinx (thinking on the 2nd one due to my meta)
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empyrial archangel
1 blazing archon
2 tombstalker
3 putrid imp

I personaly think that tombstalker is a great plan B or a "turn giver" when you dont have the pieces of the combo, but thats just me.

I use 2 mystical tutor, I don't think is really necesary 3 or 4.

I have to say it again. Mystical Tutor is EVERY card in your deck apart from the 6 creatures. It is Entomb, Reanimate, Study, Ritual, Daze, Force, Exhume, Brainstorm and Thoughtseize. I can't imagine playing less than 4.

My list today is:

Creatures (6):
2x Iona
1x Empyrial
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Akroma
1x Sphinx

Spells (38):
4x Thoughtseize
4x Force
4x Mystical
4x Entomb
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual/Lotus Petal (undecided if I splash green or stick to UB right now)
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate
3x Daze
3x Careful Study

Lands (16):
4x Polluted Delte
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island

Sb: Totally undecided yet but roughly
6x Bounce to get rid off GY hate
2-3 Show and Tell
1-2 Extra Fatties
Rest are free slots for maybe EE, Needle whatever

[practical joke]

About mystical tutor


It is everything in your deck +1 turn.

If you open with 2 on hand, you will not go off before Turn 3.
If you already have on of the combo-pieces the second one is a dead card.
Mystical tutor is very good, but the last thing you want is be depending on mystical to find your combo-pieces. It's very very slow :(

The problem I have with most creatures, is that they will get removed. I've met in my reanimate matches, only 2 decks, that didn't play removal. ( seen loads of swords and edicts lately, but also some bounce, sowers and terminates)

they finally get something to do with the removal they have for dead in their hands. That's what makes the deck so effective, the opponent cannot, or hardly get rid of the fat ones. If you give them a chance and play a tombstalker it will feel their removal easily :)

[Folkien]

If you give them a chance and play a tombstalker it will feel their removal easily :)

That's true when you play it alone, but when you can do this play most of the time "1st turn: fetch for underground, dark ritual, entomb for iona, reanimate, and putrid imp, go" "2nd turn: fetch for another underground sea or bayou, atack with iona, discar any card with putrid, then tombstalker for 2 manas and removing te useless cards in yourGY (6 of them)" it's kinda funny to see your oppnents face, when iona blocked they removal color.

[practical joke]

still, you would've won that match anyways.

so adding the tombstalkers still gave you no advantage

[Nekrataal]

OK my final list for today's tournament will be:

// Lands
2 [APL] Island (3)
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 [LE] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
3 [OD] Careful Study
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [US] Exhume

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [ON] Infest
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [RAV] Blazing Archon

Since my 2nd ordered iona wasn't delivered in time I try playing with only one. Maybe I still get one before the tournament but i am not sure about that. Probably I will get raped because everybody is packing his new Surviving Bant Deck or switching back to pure control.... ;) BTw Inkwell came back in for the missing Iona.

Boarding plan mainly is against non-control to take out counters and discard for more GY protection (in from of bounce, Grip), creature hate (EE, Infest) and Show and Tell. Against U Aggro Control I am thinking of change discard to GY protections (something has to leave mainboard). Against U based control the matchup is hard anyway so I would pack 3 Krosan grip maybe for 1-2 Reanimator targets and/or 1-2 Study. Against any other aggro control / control like Loam you basically just have to take care of GY hate Game 2. Probably Daze is weak in these matchups so it will go out. I really fear Zoo. I havent really played it yet just RG Beatz which is very easy to beat (shut down red a go for the win). Zoo has PtE and enough burn and small creatures to race you. There actually no save Reanimator choice since they either can burn it or remove it. With counterbackup I probably would go for Iona on red.

[practical joke]

Don't worry about zoo match-up.
Nearly all your creatures take down zoo singlehandedly.

I made Top 4 ( 16 player tournament) against the following

round 1: merfolk ( 2-1) he can't outspeed me and my counters in G1 and G3, I had to mull back to 5 in G2, and see vial+standstill against me, I brainstorm into nothing. not able to shuffle the library in those 2 turns after.
round 2: Loam-control (2-1) I win on iona, Game 1 ( think I choose red),
game 2, In die due to finding no action on time, I get WoG, chalices,devastating dreams and a worms harvest up high, and lose it.
Game 3, I closely win on akroma. He cannot match the speed she brings, not even with loam+seismic. ( I casted her with reanimate)
Round 3: counterbalance (with NO): (0-2), I already hate this MU, then I also found out after I seized a goyf, casted an empyrrial, he finds more goyfs. 4 of those are pretty unfair ;)
second game, I have an early inkwell leviathan, beat him to 11, he casts NO ( I'm on 10), I forget to time wisely to avoid the top so I could brainstorm. didn't do it, else I could've counter it. I lose shortly after.
Round 4: Naya zoo, I play iona on white, or akroma G1 and G2, he has no way of beating that ( he had to mull twice total those games)
Round 5: ID


Semi-finals: The rock with more hate against me than I could dream off (1-2)
I lose here to my own mistakes which I never ever ever should've made.
But that's how the day went, I made more mistakes in 5 rounds than I can count on both my hands and feet. So to be honest I didn't even deserved to be in that top 4.

short list of mistakes:
dazing creatures, turn afterwards casting exhume. ( pretty fail)
shuffling your counterspells back into your deck while fetching for land.
Choosing the wrong color for iona, ( I somehow choose black against the rock, while I had the perfect hand to beat his face big time with a T1 iona)

since that day I knew.

Sleep is not overrated....

[Nekrataal]

Well my tournament result was quite frustrating. I went 2:4 because everybody and his mother was prepared for Dredge feat. Iona. But let me recount game by game.

Round 1: I am paired against a fellow of mine which is not fun because he plays Affinity and I fear that I cannot match a good start of him.

Game 1: It comes to the obvious. He plays his hand and has a 2nd Turn Plating. I just have Empyrial which blocks for 3-4 rounds due to a hand full of reanimation spells but in the end I do not find a solution. At least I have hate SB. I boarded 12 cards. ALL counterspells went out and all disruption since it is almost useless if he gets a good start. I therefore boarded bounce and Show and Tell since I know he plays Planar Void in his sideboard.

Game 2: I have to take a mulligan (one of many in this tournament). I start with 6 and a mediocre hand. I thoughtseize myself and get Empyrial online the round afterwards. Obviously his start is not too good this time and I can win quite easily.

Game 3: I get a quick EA with Careful Study into the graveyard that gets reanimated. He has like 4 or 5 creatures in play already (Workers, Frogmites). I draw into Infest which clears his board. The following Turn he plays 2 Thoughtcast and plays out his hand again. I go for Sphinx with Show and Tell (he brings in a Master at 10/10) and I beat him to 3. He has plating and 2 black mana the next turn :/ and kills Empyrial. I attack with Sphinx in return. He is on 3. He has no flyers. He is dead.

Round 3: I play against Dredge (with Iona). I feel quite comfortable because Iona on black seems like a good choice. Also I have a not so secret sideboard tech with Blazing Archon.

Game 1: It happens the way I anticipated it. Iona on black seals the win although it was quite close because Ichorids can still produce a large amount of tokens. Close one.

Game 2: I reanimate Empyrial and Sphinx Turn 2 I careful-studied into the GY Turn 1. I feel good although at 3 life. The Dredge guy just comboes off, produced a hell lot of hasty tokens kills Empyrial and me the next turn dispite of the Sphinxs lifegain. :/ Shit! Maybe I should have reanimated more carefully.

Game 3: The turn before I can shut down his deck with Blazing Archon (which I sideboarded along with some other stuff I can't remember) he goes triple Therapy and Iona on black :/. I think it was like Turn 3 or so. I think I misplayed here because I took the wrong card with Thoughtseize Turn 1, but in the end it is hard to tell with Breakthrough and all the dredge action that followed.

Round 3: Bw Vampires. I know the guy. He like to play experimental decks and it is always fun to play against him.

Game 1: He plays all swamps. I think "finally an easy matchup" and pull a Turn 3 Iona on Black. He is complaining that he doesn't draw into a white land to play StoP. I think he is kidding. I win with him not drawing into white as expected. I sideboard the usual package against GY hate and board out some counters.

Game 2: I try to reanimate something Turn 3 (I dont quite remember what it was) but it wasnt Iona because I held no Entomb or Mystical. In response he draws a card with Top and extirpates my Fatty. Uh that was unexpected! Then I get thoughtseized two times and he comes over with creatures. Finally I can land another fatty thanks to Show and Tell. He has: "Gatekeeper of Malakir". AND furthermore he does play white mana sources. I cannot recover from that blow.

Game 3: A quick Akroma (I went for that option because she kills quickest) beats him 2 times but then he finds removal again which I can counter once but he has more ... he then puts down a Relic. Uff I didnt expect that. Game 2 I didnt see any Artefakt GY hate and against Extirpate I can do nothing at all. The reason this matters is because I boarded in Counters again in favor of GY hate (ET, Grip) :/ Bad choice. I manage to go off with an Empyrial some turns later but he has Gatekeeper and a Volrath Stronghold to recur the Gatekeeper.

After the match I tells me that due to the massive amount of Iona Dredge he saw before the tourney he rebuild his deck on short notice to include white. In retrospective I think I mulliganed at least 2 times ... not that it would have mattered.

Round 4: Canadian Threshold. Well, finally a deck I think I can beat because all the removal in Canadian Thresh is just worseless.

Game 1: I get a hand flooded with land and take a mulligan also on the play. The next hand is as bad but nevertheless I keep it. I resolve Brainstorm and see something like: Land, Land, Land :/ When I try to fetch to shuffle it gets stifled 2 times. I expected nothing less but I needed that shuffle. So in the end I am beaten down by a 2 mana green creatures ending with a big F.

Game 2: I start with a good hand so I can combo Turn 3 latest. In his Turn he plays Crypt #1 then Crypt #2 then Crypt #3. His note that he added Crypts in the last second because he saw a lot of Dredge doesnt comfort me. During the game I manage to get rid off 2. But it just takes too much time. Although his starting hand was totally crap he can rebuild and has a hand full of counters.

Both games felt like I never had a chance :/

Round 5: ANT. Well that guy is as pissed as me from loosing 3 games in a row. We exceed each other in complaining about our failures considering the evaluation of the current meta game ... yeah anyway we have to find out how sucks even more.

Game 1: I combo Turn 2, Iona leaves him no options. After 2 Turns of beating he concedes.

Game 2: I combo Turn 2, Iona leaves him no options. After 2 Turns of beating he concedes.

Finally I got good starting hands. Finally the deck did what it should.

Round 6: CounterTop UGrw.

Game 1: I get a perfect start and choose Empyrial over Iona because he cannot block nor remove her. I played her that early (Turn 2) I hope that he cannot race her. He can't I win.

Game 2: We both mulligan to 6. I have boarded the typical GY package. The game keeps on crawling for quite some long time with me countering Counterbalance, gripping Crypts, reanimating something to force to blow up Relic, but my opponent also manages to shut down my attempts to reanimate something useful. I learn that he boarded Spell Pierce the turn I wan't to recall his newly put into play Relic :/ My options are spread thin while he resolves a Counterbalance the next turn. He states that he heard that Counterbalance is good against Reanimator and right he is. He is wise enough to keep 1 and 2 maan spells floating on his deck.

Game 3: See game 2. The crucial play comes Turn 15 or 16 where he is on 8. I have Empyiral in play he has 1 Tarmogoyf. He had some serious Brainstorm, Ponder etc. actions going on for 3 Turns while I have beaten him down with EA. I figured that he is in search for a burn spell to get rid off Empyrial because Goyf is at 5 power. He finds a second Tarmogoyf instead ( I told me after the game that he doesnt play any burn and the Vulcanics are just for Firespout). So I can beat him to 3 but will loose the Angel when he attacks. I am at 6 LP myself so cannot use the Reanimate on my hand to recover him (would be worseless anyway). I check his graveyard because "any" creature will secure my win. There is ... nothing. So the Angel has to go and the last round is lost.

At the table beside me another Reanimtor player looses his final match and he goes 2:4. He tells me that during the last weeks he had great success with the deck. We compare our lists and there is no big difference. What I like about his list is he is just plays 5 reanimation targets, no Studies but 4 Spell Pierce. He also plays Null Rod SB. I think I should have played Pithing Needle to shut down multiple Crypts or Relics or at least be more versatile against GY hate. However I have to dwell on the subject that everbody seemed prepared for Iona in my Meta because of Dredge. Maybe the wind is already changing for Reanimator ... I didnt see that much Aggro in my Meta. There was a lot of Combo (Dredge, ANT) of course, a lot of Thresh and not much Aggro :/ The lonely Merfolk player at the top was a lucky guy these days.

Pro: The decks needs a lot of careful thinking and is fun to play at times. It is not easy to play correctly when hate has to be considered but these interactions are one of the reason to play game, isnt it?
Con: The decks abandons you at times with often mulligans, bad starting hands or just doing nothing relevant. Often you feel helpless against actions on the board because you can of course counter Goyfs and stuff but actually you have to save the counters for fatty protection (either in the GY or after reanimation). Saving you 1 Turn by countering something "irrelevant" often gains nothing although you're going to choose that option if there is nothing else left. I guess that is what is called inconsistency. Especially if you consider Game 2 it often feels like you need 4 different Spells to go off. 1 to take down their Crypt, one to place a creature in the GY, one to reanimate it and one to counter their counter on the reanimation.

[spiderfreak]

congrats on the win Practical Joke, can we get a deck list

[practical joke]

there's one in the previous pages and on the top8 lists part of the forum.
The deck keeps changing. Still looking for great additions/surprising additions that make it work better.

[Master Shake]

I'm back after another extensive bout of testing with the deck. I tested with this list:

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Entomb

4 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Blazing Archon
1 Tidespout Tyrant

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Island (its always, always, always awful, will likely become another fetch)
3 Verdant Catacombs

I also tested with a build that played -4 Dark Ritual +4 Lotus petal and -1 Animate Dead +1 Mystical Tutor

I didn't keep raw data results for this bout, but here are the conclusions:

Why I play this list I've been testing with this list because I have learned from experience that if you do not land your creature by Turn 3 at the latest you increase your chances of losing to decks with Tarmogoyf. In the testing I've done with slower builds I lose more games. You may want to write this off to play skill or style and I cannot stop you, but I think it is due to the fact that a 7/7 (or any of the other creatures) become exceptionally less impressive against most decks after turn 3 and then again every turn thereafter.

[b]Lotus Petal I had tested this over Dark Ritual and I was never impressed with it as it took away all of my good turn one hands and made them all turn 2 hands. This translates into losing more games. Having additional blue sources were nice sometimes, but opening myself up to daze [on the draw] for a turn one play was truly awful.

Brainstorm No one should need to explain to anyone else that Bainstorm is among the top tier in card quality in Magic. Because this is a combo deck, I was sometimes able to play a Brainstorm after a spell was countered and magically recoup to win the game. The problem I was discovering was the allure of keeping hands with Brainstorm and not much else going on.

The Loss of Tombstalker Obviously this list entirely eschews Tombstalker. I didn't want it as a crutch of any sort, I didn't even want the temptation of being able to board the card in. This has caused two predictable results.
1. Sideboarding is much more difficult most all of my sidebaording plans have been revised to accommodate that a card that is weak in several match ups is no longer present in the list.
2. My Counter-Top, Tempo-Thresh and Merfolk Match-ups are all significantly worse: In any game one I'm sometimes able to steal games by dropping a mid-game (Turn 4) 5/5 onto the table and preventing attacking or just dealing massive blows to my opponent. In the case of Tempo Thresh and Merfolk, Tombstalker is very commonly an unbeatable win condition.

Brainstorm or Tomstalker? I've played close to 200 games in the flesh against a large gauntlet to attempt to determine which card is 'better' And my results have been inconclusive. 50% of the time my games will end before either card is able to turn on. The card I really want for this slot is something that I can Entomb for that makes a difference, something like Narcomeba that isn't a 1/1. I looked at Life from the Loam for some time, but it seems to require too much dedication, the same way that I believe that Force of Will would require a higher dedication that would dilute and slow the deck.

On Mystical TutorWhen I was initially playing Mysitcal tutor, in was in the Animate Dead #4 slot. And I nearly always wanted Animate Dead over it. There was literally never a time where I was happy to see Mystical Tutor and although there was only one copy, I saw the card far more than I had wished to see it.


I play the deck like a combo deck too, primarily because, it is a combo deck. Playing Force of Will doesn't change that premise. It doesn't turn you into a control deck. I listed several reasons to support this. If we were playing Flash, would you be running discard over Force of Will? No. You play Force of Will because it allows you to continue playing your combo game very aggressively while being able to disrupt the opponent for free. Playing discard in those slots slows you down, and then opens you up to topdecked answers, neither of which you want to happen as a combo deck. It's worse that you actually admit a bias can skew your testing results, because it's stifling innovation and arguably stronger slots simply because you don't like it. That, to me, is unacceptable in deck design and progression. But again, you haven't tested the card and come back with results, so I suppose we can wait until you do so before making such judgments.

I'm not making the argument that Cabal Therapy is a better card but that it is impractical to play enough blue cards to support Force of Will. Reasons for which are stated above but boil down to the fact that if you don't have a large creature on the table by turn 3 you will lose the game.

Additionally, comparing this deck to flash is absurd. In Flash I could play 30 blue spells. In fact, at Grand Prix Columbus The three flash decks in the top 8 played 25, 27 and 30 blue cards. Where Steve Sadin played 25 because he was using Counter-Top and Tops were likely standing in proxy of what would have otherwise been blue spells, but that is speculation. What is fact is that at the same tournament the fish deck in the T8 played 22 blue spells, the UGR thresh list played 25. Its conventionally accepted a minimum of 20 blue spells must be played to enable consistent use of Force of Will although. It is my observation that a combo deck aiming to use Force of Will would need to play more than 20 blue spells to get effective use out of the card due to the fact that you will likely need to use cantrips and tutors to dig into the cards that do things. The last three lists posted in this tread use 16 17 and 18 blue spells.

How many blue spells do you think can be played until it disrupts the speed of the deck?

How many blue spells do you suggest playing even at cost of pushing the combo back a turn?

Regarding my opinion on playing not having tested Force of Will; have you played a build of the deck that uses Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp? Because I think it is viable and valid strategy for several reasons and am interested to know if you have tired it before disqualifying it?

And lastly, I've presented raw and unmodified testing data several times in the thread, I'm curious to know what the match-ups are like for the people reading the thread who play Force of Will. I'm more specifically interested in the Counter-Top, Tempo-Thesh and Merfolk match-ups because I am certain that it can be agreed upon that those are the most difficult match-ups.

Conclusion I'm probably going to keep testing the proposed list that I have posted above. Although there are a lot of times that I'm missing Tombstalker. I may eventually move to a 2-2 split between Brainstorm and Tombstalker, although this is clearly a personal choice. People make them.

I'll come back son to respond to comments and a bit later than that with more of my results.

[Sevryn]

From what I can tell (I don't play reanimator), this deck functions mostly at sorcery speed? If this is correct, perhaps you could run ponder over brainstorm... being able to shuffle is some good.

[arebennian]

Its conventionally accepted a minimum of 20 blue spells must be played to enable consistent use of Force of Will although. It is my observation that a combo deck aiming to use Force of Will would need to play more than 20 blue spells to get effective use out of the card due to the fact that you will likely need to use cantrips and tutors to dig into the cards that do things. The last three lists posted in this tread use 16 17 and 18 blue spells.

Regarding my opinion on playing not having tested Force of Will; have you played a build of the deck that uses Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp? Because I think it is viable and valid strategy for several reasons and am interested to know if you have tired it before disqualifying it?







It is generally accepted that 16 is the minimum. Not 20. For a combo deck it may well be 20 but my understanding is that 16 is the minimum for a 'normal' deck. Still, while you may well be using the U cards to dig for your combo, the game also doesn't go for as long and as such, the need to draw into extra U cards to cast FOW isn't as important. <<Disclaimer: Hypothesis>>



If you read Di's post in more detail, you would have noted that he was a big proponent of Cabal Therapy in Reanimator. He then noted it's shortcommings and why he prefers FOW. You failed to quote the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
The matter of playing Mystical and a billion blue cards to support FoW isn't something I really want to discuss. I feel very stronghly that Cabal Therapy is the best choice for disruption. You apparently do not feel that way.

I've been playing Reanimator since Entomb was unbanned, and originally felt the same way until about a week ago, and I'll at least offer my explanations why.


This would indicate he probably has.
Gotta go. Lunch is over. Will post more soon.

[whienot]

I split the top4 at my local shop last night with a FoW list. I beat countertop twice, one Ugw one Ugr. All my opponents made top8 and two were in the top4, so the list is potent. I'm not sure if counters are better than Therapy + Imp, but I was impressed. I'm a little more fond of the Therapy/Imp list. I believe it has a little more raw power.

Like Practical Joke mentioned, having Fow allows us to name non-white colors against certain decks and this was absolutely relevant twice in the night.

I actually won my Top8 match through 2 Crypts and a Relic.

[ktkenshinx]

Like Practical Joke mentioned, having Fow allows us to name non-white colors against certain decks and this was absolutely relevant twice in the night.
While this is an important consideration, especially given your recent tournament experience, I still must side with the Therapy route in this deck. This is not to dismiss FoW as completely irrelevant and out of place. It is merely to say that Therapy has the potential to provide more power, versatility, disruption, and protection than does FoW. My reasons for this assertion are below:

1. Proactive vs. Reactive
Therapy is a proactive card. You can cast it before your opponent acts, dealign with threats and hate before they emerge. In some cases, your opponent might get something out before you have a chance to Therapy it away. For the most part, however, you can prematurely disrupt their plans. Of course, we could argue about which is really better; some might say that reaction is better than pro-action in this deck. I contest the opposite; when you invest resources into Entomb/Discard/Reanimate/Creature you want to make sure the coast is clear, not fasten your seatbelts and hope the ride is smooth.

2. Two for One Deal
If you fail to name a card in your opponent's hand, then you can simply use Imp to get a second chance. If, however, you are clever (or lucky) enough to guess right, you effectively get a nice two-for-one disruption swing in your favor. While this technically amounts to no card advantage (Imp/Therapy vs. Card/Card), it is virtual card advantage simply because they have lost cards of substantially higher value than you have (assuming of course that you chose well).

3. Information advantage
Say what you will about looking at a player's hand, but even the harshest detractors of this card must admit that it provides a serious information advantage. This is particularly useful in determining colors to name, cards to bury, future Therapy targets, etc. Again, as I said before, when you invest into the Entomb/Discard/Reanimate/Creature plan, you will feel much better if you know what your opponent has in their hand. Then you only have to worry about a topdeck, instead of a whole hand of potential threats.

4. "Tutorable" with Entomb
You can't tutor for FoW. You can "tutor" for Entomb. This gives you an additional edge in a matchup where you need a quick answer to a potential threat; between Brainstorm, Study, Entomb, and the Therapy's themselves, you are virtually guaranteed to get the disruptive power when you need it.

5. Synergy with Reanimation
In rare scenarios where you have no discard outlets but need to get a creature into the yard, Therapy can help out in a pinch (hardcasted, that is). While you might say this is a rare scenario, and of course it is, FoW would be completely unhelpful in this potentially fatal situation.

6. Works Well Alone. Works Better with Imp
FoW needs another card to do its job. Therapy does not. If you add in another card it will certainly work better, but Therapy is fully functional without having to pitch another card for a relatively similar effect (that of disrupting an opponent).

7. Additional Cost is Expendable
There will be precious few situations where you will be upset to lose your Imp to put a wrench in your opponent's plans (or prevent them from gumming up your own). On the other hand, there will be many hands where you are just plain hesitant to ditch your critical Study or Brainstorm in order to stop an opponent from doing something nasty. Of course, if your mean reanimated monster has already roared into play, then your priority is protecting it. But if you are getting rid of a badly needed discard/card draw component, you might find yourself turns behind in the game as a result. Imp is expendable at almost all points of the game. Brainstorm and Study are not, at least early on.

Those are the big reasons that I see in favor of Therapy. I fully and openly admit that a similar list could be made for FoW (a list that I would love to see if anyone would be willing to present it). I submit this list of reasons only by way of justifying Therapy, not by way of detracting from the value of FoW.

-ktkenshinx-

[Di]

I'm not making the argument that Cabal Therapy is a better card but that it is impractical to play enough blue cards to support Force of Will. Reasons for which are stated above but boil down to the fact that if you don't have a large creature on the table by turn 3 you will lose the game.

Additionally, comparing this deck to flash is absurd. In Flash I could play 30 blue spells. In fact, at Grand Prix Columbus The three flash decks in the top 8 played 25, 27 and 30 blue cards. Where Steve Sadin played 25 because he was using Counter-Top and Tops were likely standing in proxy of what would have otherwise been blue spells, but that is speculation. What is fact is that at the same tournament the fish deck in the T8 played 22 blue spells, the UGR thresh list played 25. Its conventionally accepted a minimum of 20 blue spells must be played to enable consistent use of Force of Will although. It is my observation that a combo deck aiming to use Force of Will would need to play more than 20 blue spells to get effective use out of the card due to the fact that you will likely need to use cantrips and tutors to dig into the cards that do things. The last three lists posted in this tread use 16 17 and 18 blue spells.

How many blue spells do you think can be played until it disrupts the speed of the deck?

How many blue spells do you suggest playing even at cost of pushing the combo back a turn?

Regarding my opinion on playing not having tested Force of Will; have you played a build of the deck that uses Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp? Because I think it is viable and valid strategy for several reasons and am interested to know if you have tired it before disqualifying it?

And lastly, I've presented raw and unmodified testing data several times in the thread, I'm curious to know what the match-ups are like for the people reading the thread who play Force of Will. I'm more specifically interested in the Counter-Top, Tempo-Thesh and Merfolk match-ups because I am certain that it can be agreed upon that those are the most difficult match-ups.

16 blue cards is the minimum number for sufficient FoW support. The reason the decks you listed have such a high blue count is because they are blue-based decks. Naturally they will be. These decks are not primarily blue, they are black-based. You are also trying to compare combo decks to control decks, which is incorrect here because the use of Force of Will is drastically different than in a deck like Threshold. My Reanimator list is modeled very closely to the Worldgorger Dragon lists from 1.5 a few years back. I helped pioneer the deck in that format and played it for a long time, from Entomb builds to Bazaar builds, and am very familiar with the structure of a combo deck that runs Force of Will as protection. With those decks (and the same applies here which is the point I'm making) you very rarely need to use Force of Will more than once. It either helps resolve your first animate spell, protects your creature, or it counters a vital threat. After that, you have your win condition on the table and drawing additional protection and disruption isn't as necessary. That's why you can get away with running so few blue cards, because you typically only need to cast it once. If you can do it multiple times that's a plus, but given the deck is consistent enough to put a creature into play by turn 2-3 every game, it generally isn't necessary to need FoW more than once.

This isn't the only deck like that though. Modern Landstill builds also run a very low blue count hovering around 17-20, because they are white-based control decks, not blue. Although they get away with it for different reasons, primarily in having a much stronger card advantage engine and playing at a much slower pace.


Regarding the Flash analogy, you misunderstood me. I was not comparing Reanimator to Flash. That would indeed be absurd. But I was comparing the use of Force of Will in combo decks that can realistically support it to running discard instead. These decks can support Force of Will. Practical Joke's winning list ran 20. My own list, which is for the most part running a very similar blue structure, runs 17. The sideboard runs more that come in virtually every match (Rushing River/Echoing Truth etc), and you almost never go down in blue cards post-board to affect that rate.

Given the questions you propose in that post, I feel like you didn't bother to fully read my arguments. I addressed the concerns of the speed of the deck in reference to Force of Will (which also takes into account the rest of the deck in adjusting to support it). I'll summarize (again) the speed of the deck in relation to Force of Will:

- As a disruption piece, it speeds the deck up. Being free it isn't something you need to play turn 1. That leaves you free to play Entomb, Brainstorm, Mystical, etc. On the defensive side of that argument, Cabal Therapy is played on your turn, and can potentially miss, so the opponent still has an understanding of what they'll do on the following turn. They will still play relevant spells the next turn, which in effect shortens the window for you to win the game. With Force of Will, they play something, you counter it, and they're effectively time walked for the turn, which buys you time. This doesn't apply to pure control decks which have virtually no clock, but against a deck like Zoo, having them be able to play recurring threats through discard doesn't help you. You can Therapy out their Tarmogoyf, but then they play Pridemage. Or with Force of Will, they play Tarmogoyf, and you counter it, and they don't have a creature on the board turn 2, effectively buying you time.

- The blue cards worth adding speed up the deck by themselves. Granted, this can occasionally backfire if you open a 2x Mystical hand or hand with all cantrips and no business, but if you have a tutor turn on turn 1 you are in prime position to go off turn 2. It increases the consistency of the deck tremendously and being as cheap as they are, increases the speed. The event of pushing the combo back a turn depends on how you design the deck. My list is running Mystical Tutor on top of 10 animate effects (4 Exhume, 3 Reanimate, 3 Animate Dead. It isn't as if these cards are going in place of business that would slow the deck down. Mystical enhances the odds of drawing one of them, or Entomb, or in many cases, Dark Ritual. Having direct access to find Dark Ritual speeds the deck up a lot if you're low on lands or playing through Daze.


I have played builds using Putrid Imp and Cabal Therapy. It was even referenced by someone who posted above me, quoting an earlier post of mine, so I'm not talking out of my ass. I played Cabal Therapy in the deck for the last few months up until when I tested a Dragon-inspired design list with Force of Will and haven't looked back.

When I first started playing Reanimator when Entomb was unbanned, my list was monoblack, running Putrid Imp, Entomb, and Buried Alive. Eventually I tested a blue splash for Mystical Tutor, liked it, then naturally progressed further when I realized adding blue was a necessary evolution of the deck. I've played Putrid Imp and Therapy in U/B builds as well, and I still feel it's weaker. Putrid Imp is conditional and weak by itself, and so is Cabal Therapy. If you ran Thoughtseize in addition to Therapy your argument woonly 4 creatures does not support that very well.


Now, as far as matchups go with the Force of Will build, it varies. These are actually the matches it shines the most because these decks use Brainstorm, which shits all over discard.


Countertop: Force of Will is much stronger here. They utilize Top to keep important cards out of the reach of discard by topdecking into them when they need them, and also hide cards with Brainstorm. Using a Cabal Therapy only to see them Brainstorm in response then play Counterbalance the following turn is very discouraging. Force if Will stops any of those shenanigans. It's also far less-likely to be Dazed than Cabal Therapy because it's free, which is highly relevant. As mentioned before, it speeds up the deck because it allows you to play more aggressively because it is free. This is important because it gives them less time to assemble Counter/Top. Although I'll argue that either build might have a 50/50 matchup game 1, but post-board is favorable because Krosan Grip and/or Rushing River really ruin their day, but more favorable for Force builds because of Force of Will and Mystical Tutor. Builds running Mystical Tutor have the ability to directly search for Grip and River. I also run a single Reverant Silence in the sideboard for these matchups, as well as handling Leyline of the Void, because it kills Counterbalance for free.


Tempo Thresh: This is similar to CounterTop, but not having Counterbalance takes a lot of pressure off you. Force of Will is actually stronger in this match due to their mana denial. Being free is absolutely huge given mana is at a premium in this matchup and you won't likely have much of it. The other benefit of Force of Will here is how absolutely terrible Cabal Therapy is in this matchup. Naming cards blindly is very difficult given the variety of counters they have. Post-board you will see Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and maybe even REB. Wiffing on Therapy is very easy to do because they are likely to have more, and different ones at that. With FoW, they are forced to choose what to play, and you act from there. If they have multiple counters then you might be sol, but then again the builds running Force of Will are also running Thoughtseize, so we have more actual disruption than you.

Merfolk: I actually don't believe this is a hard matchup at all. Cleverly playing your manabase just wins here. They have no removal, so they scoop to virtually any creature you play. The only hard counter they have is Force of Will, and playing through Cursecatcher and Daze is not difficult, plus they have a weak draw engine. However, this is played very similar to Tempo Thresh. Force shines in matchups that rely on mana denial because it saves you the trouble of using it to play disruption. I don't really have much else to say on this, as it uses the same package (save Spell Snare and Pierce) as Threshold.

[arebennian]

So Di, have you posted a decklist on this thread?
Would be nice to see you list.
Or are you keeping your cards close?

[Di]

I have not posted a decklist yet, but I'll add one here. I'm currently working with a lot of different things with Reanimator, so I have roughly 4-5 lists that see regular testing. The one I'm working with most closely is a bit different from the lists in this thread, because it uses a very low creature count (only 4 creatures) and replaces those extra slots with additional draw and bury spells. I have additional builds with standard higher creature counts and Careful Study, builds with Putrid Imp, and monoblack lists, but I favor the list I'm going to post because it has the fewest number of dead draws and has a much stronger midgame against control decks. Explanations will be provided after the list.

I will mention that this list isn't exact and is still in testing (although I've brought it to both large and small events) so keep that in mind. Nothing is definate, I just like the direction it's taken so far.

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan/Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

4 Entomb
2 Buried Alive
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Careful Study/Show and Tell
3 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead

4 Dark Ritual
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hurkles Recall
1 Reverant Silence
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rushing River
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Empyrial Archangel/Inkwell Leviathan
1 Thunder Dragon


As you can see, the primary difference here is between the use of Ponder and Careful Study. Traditional builds use Careful Study as a graveyard-enabling outlet, whereas I am testing Buried Alive instead, and use Ponder as additional search to find cards. Going into specific card choices (or lack of) that require explanation:

4 Creatures maindeck: Most builds run in the range of 7-10 creatures. That's suitable to their builds, but I feel that Careful Study is a terribly weak draw spell outside the situation where you dump a creature, and drawing those excess creatures is a liability. By running as few creatures as necessary, you don't run into those potential dead draws or opening hands that you terrible because you see 2 or more of them without discard outlets. With a design that doesn't feature discard outlets, it's more beneficial to run fewer creatures. The actual creature suite varies week after week, but this is what I'm using currently. Despite the weaknesses of Blazing Archon, I still feel it's good enough against most of the metagame to warrant a maindeck slot. The Archangel/Inkwell slot depends on the metagame, but either way a shroud creature is in both slots in the main and side. The sideboard Thunder Dragon is something I've liked a lot and haven't seen anywhere else in this thread. Against horde decks many times they will have an answer to the creature you play, be it with StP, Path to Exile, Wierding, etc. Archangel often isn't enough against these decks because they'll blow right by it and kill her then continue to play aggro. Thunder Dragon provides a board-sweeping effect against these decks will still providing a clock, but even if it's killed, it did it's job in killing their board to slow them down. This is huge against decks like Merfolk and Goblins.

1 Careful Study/Show and Tell: After continuous testing of the deck running 8-10 creatures, I got tired of opening hands that had 2+ creatures and no Careful Study or using Careful Study/Putrid Imp and having no creatures to discard with it, and drawing creatures midgame without discard outlets greatly bothered me. That, to me, really hurt the consistency and power of the deck, so I took a different approach by using Ponder instead. However, I keep the single Careful Study as a bullet in the event I have creatures in hand. However, I'm also testing Show and Tell in this slot, because if I have the option of discarding it, I might as well directly put it into play. Further testing will prove the best option there.

Ponder: Ponder is a stronger draw spell and helps dig for anything you need, which is sufficient given I run a different suite of bury spells. Given the higher reliance on bury spells as I don't run discard outlets, Ponder is much better because it finds them quickly. It is very strong as an opening play as it builds you up for a strong turn 2, and it's a much better topdeck than Careful Study. You could make the argument that topdecking a Careful Study will be good because it will dump creatures in your hand, but in defense of this decklist, you almost never draw creatures, so that isn't an issue.

Buried Alive: This is arguably the biggest eyebrow-raising card in the decklist. It costs 2B so it is slower, but the benefits it has outweigh the speed of the card. The biggest thing for me is that it is multiple guaranteed Entomb. I say guaranteed because casting Careful Study does not necessarily yield you creatures in the graveyard. Buried Alive, although more expensive, puts multiple creatures in the yard and sets you up for 2 animates the following turn. It gives additional use and strength to Dark Ritual as well because that really helps circumvent the casting cost restriction of the card. In most cases, it is unacceptable if you can't reanimate by turn 3. Granted, it is rare you aren't able to find Entomb by then to do so, but in the case of Buried Alive, this is generally offset by reanimating multiple creatures at once if you happen to do that turn 4. If you have Dark Ritual, it's faster, so that negates any issues. I chose to run this over Intuition solely for the fact that it still allows the deck to run as few creatures as possible. Intuition requires multiple copies of Iona and such to ensure putting them in the graveyard, and that interferes with the design of this particular build.

The sideboard is based on my personal preferences. I run a split of Needle, Hurkles Recall, Grip, and Rushing River for different anti-grave hate packages depending on the matchup. My own graveyard hate is for Ichorid and the mirror. Despite people believing Ichorid is a highly favorable matchup, it can be incredibly difficult if they are competent pilots. Exhume is a potential liability in returning GGT or Stinkweed Imp, and they can race very easily. Granted, game 1 Blazing Archon beats them, but post-board you also have to deal with Chain of Vapor as well. This just helps solidify the odds of winning that matchup. The same goes for the mirror. For those who've played the mirror, it's a lame match to play. This simply helps that out. The Extirpate is also boarded in for control matchups too. Hitting their counters and whatnot goes a long way towards winning. The additional Duress are also there for the control matchup. Given decks like Tempo Thresh have an absurd amount of counters, the added protection helps.


Again, this is just a test list, but it's given me the best and most consistent results of any of the decklists I've played. It certainly has a different playstyle to it, but it's much better for those who want to minimize the number of dead draws in the deck and maximize the potential consistency and card advantage it can offer.

[Linkin Pac]

Master Shake, I had a couple of questions about your build since I plan on testing one similar to yours. Which matchups do you try to bring out the Tidespout Tyrant? I've played Reanimator with the toolbox approach before, but it seems I would almost always want to get Iona (hands down the best creature to reanimate) and for versatility, usually only the Empyrial Archangel. Also, how is Blazing Archon working for you? I used to run him since he is an autowin against Ichorid game 1 and is a pain in the ass for Merfolk if they don't have White. But against any W or B deck with removal he's awful IMO. Zoo just Paths him, and the expensive nine mana cost with Reanimate makes me dislike him even more.

Also, are you still running this sideboard?

4 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierece
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River

I like the simplicity with so many 4-ofs, as well as being focused on hate against you (11 bounce/destruction spells). Do you still only use Grip when you know they have blue, and Echoing Truth all other times? And also, when do you decide when the Hurkyl's Recalls and Rushing Rivers go in? They all seem like viable answers, but that's a lot of cards to side out of your maindeck. And is Spell Pierce just there for hate that's not graveyard-specific? I guess I'm just asking for an explanation of your entire sideboard lol.

[Master Shake]

Master Shake, I had a couple of questions about your build since I plan on testing one similar to yours. Which matchups do you try to bring out the Tidespout Tyrant? I've played Reanimator with the toolbox approach before, but it seems I would almost always want to get Iona (hands down the best creature to reanimate) and for versatility, usually only the Empyrial Archangel. Also, how is Blazing Archon working for you? I used to run him since he is an autowin against Ichorid game 1 and is a pain in the ass for Merfolk if they don't have White. But against any W or B deck with removal he's awful IMO. Zoo just Paths him, and the expensive nine mana cost with Reanimate makes me dislike him even more.

Also, are you still running this sideboard?

4 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierece
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River

I like the simplicity with so many 4-ofs, as well as being focused on hate against you (11 bounce/destruction spells). Do you still only use Grip when you know they have blue, and Echoing Truth all other times? And also, when do you decide when the Hurkyl's Recalls and Rushing Rivers go in? They all seem like viable answers, but that's a lot of cards to side out of your maindeck. And is Spell Pierce just there for hate that's not graveyard-specific? I guess I'm just asking for an explanation of your entire sideboard lol.

I've been considering writing up a detailed report of how I generally sideboard in specific matches so I guess the time has come:

Note This are all for an unknown metagame. In smaller metagames people are generally afraid to bring a deck without extensive graveyard hate n the extra 15. However, at a larger scale event people will be more likely focus on shoring up unfavorable matches that have an really chance of making an impact and will often leave the Crypts at home.

Overall General Strategy or OGS This the default plan for boarding out when going into a game 2:

On the draw: -4 Dark Ritual +4 Answer to anticipated hate (Either +4 Echoing Truth or Krosan Grip)
On the Play: -2 Creatures -2 Brainstorm/Cabal Therapy (If you are using Tombstalker unless you are playing against Counter-top, Threshold or Merfolk Tombstlkers nearly always come out.)

Specific Sideboarding Plans

Affinity: Affinity boards are always screwy but you can expect to see a crypt in there. OGS But Hurkyl's Recall can come in here in the place of what would be 2 Echoing Truth. Creature 1 ad 2 are Iona in this case. An Alternative plan of -3 Iona +1 Echoing Truth +2 Recall could be used

ANT/NLS: -1 Blazing Archon -1 Empyrial Archangel -1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind +3 Spell Pierce (You would probably want to bring the 4th one in for something as well.) Tidespout stays in for its ability to turn off Infernal Tutor. Its not the ideal target but it can keep your opponent on the ropes.

Counter-Top: They probably will not bring in graveyard hate. See OGS Where creature 1 is Tidespout Tyrant and Creature 2 is Blazing Archon

Dragon Stompy: I don't think too many people play this anymore, and I haven't had the opportunity to play against it, but to speculate it would involve -4 Dark Ritual both game 1 and 2 and +4 Echoing Truth, perhaps Spell Pierce on the play.

Dreadstill: I find this to be the most difficult MU now, thankfully its not often played. I board (On the draw) -4 Dark Ritual -2 Putrid Imp -1 Empyrial Archangel -3 Animate Dead +4 Krosan Grip +4 Spell Pierce +1 Rushing River +1 Echoing Truth. This allows you the ability to counter Counterbalance or Stifle targeting Dreadnought on Turn 2 should that present itself. It also gives you the ability to participate in a counter war. (On the Play) -4 Brainstorm -1 Empyrial Archangel +3 Krosan Grip +2 Spell Pierce

Dredge: Despite what Di suggests, I have enjoyed a X-0 (Where X is at least 15) match record against the deck and feel that this is highly favorable. I sideboard as follows; -4 Cabal Therapy +4 Echoing Truth -4 Brainstorm +4 Spell Pierce. If you anticipate Leyline (Which has been on the decline in Dredge lists) you can augment for additional bounce spells. Spell Pierce can negate the bounce spell for your Iona or stifle any quick start they may wish to employ via Breakthrough.

Elf combo and other elf non-sense: This should be straight forward. OGS where you can probably sideboard out any creature.

Enchantress: You can expect them to bring in more Ground Seal and perhaps even Orim's Chant. My suggested sideboarding plan is OGS Where Creature 1 is Blazing Archon, Creature 2 is Empyrial Archangel and +4 Spell Pierce.

Eva Green: You have to expect Leyline and the discard that they have paired with it is going to be a bitch. OGS Where creature 1 is Blazing Archon and Creature 2 is Tidespout Tyrant (Although I have hardcast Tryrant in this MU more than once.) -3 Therapy +4 Echoing Truth +1 Rushing River.

Goblins (Mono Red): They will likely have Relic/Crypt in the 4-5 range. OGS 1 Tidesot Tyrant and instead of a second creature -3 Cabal Therapy.

Goblins (Rgb and Rb): There is a chance for Extripate here, so I suggest keeping Therapy in and instead going for -3 Brainstorm -1 Tidespout.

Goyf Sligh and Burn - Follow OGS Where creature one is an Iona (or Blazing Archon) and creature 2 is Tidespout Tyrant.

Landstill: OGS Where creature 1 is generally Blazing Archon and creature 2 is Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

Merfolk: Although it sucks, going OGS for Grip is what must be done. Creuatre 1 is Sphinx of the Steel Wind and creature 2 is Empyrial Arhcangel (it will only ever Fog) Tidespout stays in as a second reanimation choice as it is able to bounce Vial. I've lost games due to Vial after Iona is down.

Tempo Thresh: Generally No sideboard as they will often not have anything to bring in. Be careful not to show a Tempo-Thresh player your Bayous at all, because Submerge can be a problem.

White Stax: On the Play: -1 Empyrial Archangel -1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind -4 Brainstorm +3 Echoing Truth +2 Hurkyl's Recall +1 Rushing River. Additionally you can bring in Spell Pierce in an attempt to quash Chalice @ 1/ Trinisphere.

Zoo: No expected hate should be coming in. Its a stupidly favorable match anyway.

This should really count for most of the decks you will see at a given tournament. I'll post again later to comment more on what has happened in the thread.

[practical joke]

I see 2 types of reanimate decks here.

The one is mostly black with putrid imp and dark ritual ( using therapy as protection).
The other one is more blue and plays FoW+ daze as protection.

I shall never say one is better than the others , since i haven't played the first one on tournament level.

About the match-ups with FoW/daze.

those against merfolk,tempo-***** and counterbalance.
Counterbalance is still tricky, but playing daze gives an option to either get it through, or push their own counterhand to do the hard work while you go off a turn later with an answer ( mana stuff) to counterbalance. It's far from an easy match-up, but it's acceptable. For me it's the worst match-up available, but it is acceptable.

Tempotresh shouldn't be too hard now. You got off with 1 or 2 protection, maybe cast a thoughtseize, etc. One threat should be enough to close the deal, they are low on creatures and that burn will have to do some extremely hard work to get there. Mana denial is not much of a problem since I use petals, not fun either, but you can play with a single land and petal.

Merfolk is tricky, if they get a vial, standstill, wasteland hand on the play, you'll be praying for an insane good hand. If they don't, the match-up isn't that bad, they have problems outracing either an iona or inkwell, even akroma is working hard due to their lack of removal.


those are my 2 cents, I do hope that we can get a few nice results out with the Putrid imp/cabal therapy lists. Keep us updated.
I have another small tournament tomorrow, and I'll go with the Blue/Black counter list since It earned from scratch ( started 2 months ago with the legacy environment) and earned me a static bye so far for GP Madrid ( just have to keep it up high enough).

I haven't seen many ichorid and affinity decks around here. I think the meta doesn't really allow those 2 to shine, and affinity isn't very good either.That's why I think getting a blazing archon isn't necessary anymore.

[practical joke]

Done a 30+ man tournament yesterday and it went disastrous. I went 4-2, but it wasn't satisfying. I'll explain below.

First round:
Goblins (2-0), he stood no chance, I went off quite fast both times.

Second round:
Goblins (2-0), again he stood no chance, crappy goblins list and an even worse player.

Third round:
Goblins (1-2): he started the game, I couldn't find any action and he went insane. nothing much to do about it.
Second game I go T1 akroma, he scoops immediatly after seeing he cannot get rid of it and it eats his goblins easily before he can start outracing me.
third game: he has a slow start, I have a no-land hand with 2 petals and a very good set-up to go off on T2 if I drew a single land. No lands were found in the following 8 turns.

Fourth round:
Homebrew landdenial (1-2)
I win easily by getting an akroma into play. His bitterblossom doesn't do a single thing.
He wins the second match with well-placed counters and thoughtseizes.
Third game, I needed a single land to win the game, ( show and tell, he was holding extirpates), but I only found 6 reanimate spells in a row. his tombstalker did the rest of the work.

Fifth and sixth round ( 2-1 and 2-0)
Both Aggro-loam, that deck is practically a bye for reanimate. the only way they can win is by having a first turn chalice and being very lucky I don't draw into either bounce, exhume or show and tell)



So a bit dissapointed in the end, there should've been much more to gain that day especially since the match-ups weren't that bad after all.

I played the following list and I will keep playing it for some time besides some SB changes ( won't write down that SB)

multiple fetch for avoidance tempotresh peedle locks

3 underground sea
2 bayou
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
1 bloodstained mire
1 marsh flats
1 island
1 swamp

4 lotus petal

4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 entomb
4 daze
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 careful study
3 mystical tutor
4 thoughtseize
1 echoing truth
1 show and tell

2 iona, shield of emeria
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 empyrial archangel
1 inkwell leviathan

[whienot]

I'm guessing those were mono red Goblins builds. Rw and Rb can be tough for us. Rb with Warren Weirding are especially tough for versions without Putrid Imp.

Also, I hate basic islands in this deck. In a deck with so few lands, I really want to be able to win off any of them. Maybe it's bad luck, but I've had to ship back otherwise great hands because I couldn't make black. I know these are rare, but we should minimize these as much as possible. I almost want to run Watery Graves and Underground Rivers, but both are pretty terrible.

And a blurb from Worldwake:
Admonition Angel, a 6/6 flying creature which exiles a permanent each time a land comes onto the battlefield under your control. Those permanents come back if Admonition Angel leaves the battlefield.

Seems good.

[Di]

@ Practical Joke

I blame your landscrew woes on your low land count. 15 land is far too low, even with Petals. You absolutely need to hit at least 2 every game (well maybe about 5% of the time you can get away with 1) and running so few, even with draw spells, won't get you there reliably. I personally wouldn't go any lower than 17. Losing games to landscrew where you shouldn't is just really disappointing, so I'd try to avoid doing that to yourself at all costs. I can't imagine how a build with only 15 lands, 8 of those fetchlands, has a chance at consistently beating a deck like Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. Hitting only a single land in that instance is seriously bad, where if you ran more land you could get around that much easier.

Also, how did that disruption package work out? It'd seem as though running a full 12 cards would disrupt the consistency and flow of the deck.


Also, I hate basic islands in this deck. In a deck with so few lands, I really want to be able to win off any of them. Maybe it's bad luck, but I've had to ship back otherwise great hands because I couldn't make black. I know these are rare, but we should minimize these as much as possible. I almost want to run Watery Graves and Underground Rivers, but both are pretty terrible.

The single Island sucks, and nobody will argue that. But it is a necessary evil. This deck needs to have a blue source that is untouchable to hate because of how fragile the manabase is to Wasteland. Although it's occasionally been problematic for me as well when I've sat there glaring at it and wishing it produced black, the basic Island has won me several games that I wouldn't have won had that been something else. It needs to stay.

[practical joke]

To be Honest, I don't blame my landcount that day.
I've played this deck a pretty lot, what had costed me that game was a bit of bad luck and a bad mulligan choise. All were MRG with stingscourcher. Even the few warren weirdings they can run, won't get that deck a win.

Why I only play 15 lands and 4 petals. You cannot imagine how often I picked up more than 5 lands in a game I won/loss early. Those dead landdraws really kill the deck.

The basics are indeed a necessary evil, it's not fun, but having a single wasteland looking at you, isn't fun either. I also run them since I do see a back to basics once in a while. 2 basics give you some gameplan to play with.

Haven't tested enough against tempotresh to know the complete match-up if it's good or not. but so far it's not a good match-up but neither a real bad one. A single threat is either game ( iona for red, or blue with counterback-up, inkwell and empyrial also let them empty their hands or die by her hands)

Merfolk is doable, they have to go really aggressive to be able to outrace me. Be aware of sowers+ vial. They can screw your game-plan.

The disruption plan works as intended, getting a nice lot of counters/discard makes the deck being able to able to deal with counterbalance and tempotresh and merfolk.

[Oxmo39]

To be Honest, I don't blame my landcount that day.

Hmm...it seems nevertheless that both games you lost, were due to manadeath...

I also think that 15 lands is too low. 16 lands seems the very minimum to me. As Di said, we always need at least 2 lands per games.
The one-land difference is not huge but that's maybe what made you lose those 2 games...

Anyway, I could also test Daze (as a 3-of) : they are awesome! I 've just could test against Survival bant and they really shine. I am really pleased with them. Anyway, Sur-Bant is a very favorable match up...
I'd like to add the 4th daze , but i don't know if I still have the free slot for it :rolleyes: But 3 is already good and gives to the deck this extra-protection i was looking for.

[practical joke]

I think I ditched either a AoD or the 4th careful study for that.
3 seems more than enough.

I played 16 lands +4 petals before, and I have no problems hitting 2+ lands, most of the time I actually had problems with hitting a 50% score of mana source/non-mana cards. It also depends on my match at the moment, but against some matches, 1 land is enough, especially when you are on the play.

[Di]

I think I ditched either a AoD or the 4th careful study for that.
3 seems more than enough.

I played 16 lands +4 petals before, and I have no problems hitting 2+ lands, most of the time I actually had problems with hitting a 50% score of mana source/non-mana cards. It also depends on my match at the moment, but against some matches, 1 land is enough, especially when you are on the play.

In many matchups, that is acceptable. A lot of decks either don't put enough pressure on you early or are fast but lack mana disruption, so either way you can get by. However, that isn't the case with decks like Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, etc, where the low land count will bite you in the ass. Those matchups already have the potential to be shaky, so giving them the ability to win simply through Stifle and Wasteland can be very costly. Those are the decks you'd really want to see the extra land in, because if you don't it just makes Daze and Spell Pierce stronger as well. Otherwise, it's almost an unnoticable difference. You might occasionally hit a small clump of land or draw more than wanted, but that is completely offset by giving you a much easier time in the tempo matches. Generally the deck can overcome drawing excessive lands because you combo so quickly, but losing matchups because you don't run enough and get them disrupted is unacceptable.

Despite the fact that you might blame the losses you had on mulligans and whatnot, that doesn't deny the fact that the land count had an impact. Had you run more land, you would've been more likely to draw them off mulligans, or opened more, etc. With a higher land count, the odds of you getting land screwed are far lower than odds of you either having an optimal amount or slightly excessive amount of lands. Regardless of the situation, I'd always take the latter.


As an aside, I'm rather surprised that last list you ran had Careful Study given you only ran 5 creatures. How exactly did Study work for you when you had such a low creature count? Once I lowered the creature count I swapped Study for Ponder because Study is a terrible draw spell without a creature and Ponder has been much better.

[whienot]

Careful Study also activates Ravenous Trap, which may not be a concern, yet. The good thing is that the trap can be played around if you know they board it.

I'm down to 2 Studies in my build and may end up dropping them. Like, Di said, without a creature, it's terrible. It's card disadvantage, and without a creature you end up dumping cards you may need to keep.

How many creatures should be run to use a playset of Careful Study to good effect? I'm thinking somewhere in the 10-14 range.

[practical joke]

I ran careful studies as a 4-off at 7+ creatures. It's good enough from 7+
I play less now, for 2 reasons, it's still a discard outlet, it saves me from having a dead creature or unusable land cards I can ditch on a second way (brainstorm+ fetch being the other), after boarding against a lot of decks like ichorid and ANT, having a bounced iona a single turn to long in your hand, will mean you will lose.

So far I'll keep using a 3-off since 4 is too many, but grabbing a single one will never hurt :)

Ravenous trap isn't so bad, you can survive having your graveyard removed.
It'll be one creature most of the time...
you just have to start from scratch again or entomb something. There's better graveyard hate than that and that is more played, don't worry too much about that card.

[Oxmo39]

@ careful study : I'm also running a list with a low amount of creatures (5 or 6) and i think more and more about dropping definitely the careful studies.
It seems less effective, would give me the extra slot to play the 4th Daze. The 2 other slots will be covered by a couple of Ponder.

Going down to less than 2 studies is (imo) useless : the chances are very very low that you get one study AND that you get a creature to discard in the same time...
Although I'm currently playing with 3 studies and i wonder if Ponder wouldn't be simply better.
The only negative point I see about dropping studies is that the deck will be again more reliant on Entomb...

[Di]

@ careful study : I'm also running a list with a low amount of creatures (5 or 6) and i think more and more about dropping definitely the careful studies.
It seems less effective, would give me the extra slot to play the 4th Daze. The 2 other slots will be covered by a couple of Ponder.

Going down to less than 2 studies is (imo) useless : the chances are very very low that you get one study AND that you get a creature to discard in the same time...
Although I'm currently playing with 3 studies and i wonder if Ponder wouldn't be simply better.
The only negative point I see about dropping studies is that the deck will be again more reliant on Entomb...

That's why my build also runs Buried Alive, to take some pressure off Entomb. The deck can't purely rely on Entomb, and Careful Study is too inconsistent for me to work with and requires running a useless high creature count. Although it's a little expensive, Buried Alive has been great because it still functions as a triple Entomb, and lines you up to animate multiple times.

[Torpere]

What do you think of Think Tank, and Boseiju?

[whienot]

Dear Wizards,

Please print:

Into the Grave - :b:
Instant

Search your library for a creature card and put that card into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

Entomb is already legal. What harm can it do? :laugh:

Until we get this hotness, Buried Alive and Intuition are our second best "search library, get dudes in the grave" cards. I may give the edge to Intuition in my build, at the moment. I like its versatility - being able to snag FoW, another reanimation spell, or get big guys in the grave. A 3 drop that isn't black is a bit of a liability in this deck. Though, if I'm casting intuition, plan A probably didn't work out.

Edit: Think Tank is a little slow for this deck. We want to be in a position to win by turn 3. Sure this can come out turn 2 with Petal or Ritual, but it won't be doing enough.

Boseiju is a card I've always liked (uncounterable Natural Orders win games), but here it will only really help Exhume and maybe Intuition/Buried Alive if you run them. And it doesn't produce black mana.

[Di]

Until we get this hotness, Buried Alive and Intuition are our second best "search library, get dudes in the grave" cards. I may give the edge to Intuition in my build, at the moment. I like its versatility - being able to snag FoW, another reanimation spell, or get big guys in the grave. A 3 drop that isn't black is a bit of a liability in this deck. Though, if I'm casting intuition, plan A probably didn't work out.

If you run multiple copies of creatures, then Intuition would get the nod. I'm assuming this means your build is running upwards up 6-7 creatures at the very least, with 2-3 Iona, 2 shroud creatures, and then 2-3 general utility/anti-aggro creatures. If you don't, then Intuition is terrible as a bury spell, because it won't guarantee putting the creature you want in the graveyard. Intuition has to viewed as a bury spell first and a tutor second. It's awesome in getting disruption and animate spells, but unless you run a bigger creature suite to accommodate it, it's inferior to Buried Alive. But if you're at the point of running a higher creature count like that, you're probably just better off just running Careful Study and dumping creatures when you draw them.

[whienot]

Currently, I'm playing 6 guys. 2 Iona, 2 shroud, Sphinx and Akroma/Hellkite/Sphinx #2.

I'm playing at my weekly legacy tournament right now. Lost round 1 after mulling to four, then getting hymned and seized. Game 2 I got my Underground Seas extirpated.....awesome.


Edit: I ended up 2-2, drop. Not so hot. Lots of poor hands. Lost to Goblins with a topdecked Stp after Forcing his first.

[practical joke]

intuition is awesome.
But it simply puts you at huge risks after sideboarding. What happens if they remove your 2 creatures?

Then again, you might also play show and tell, so getting 3 different creatures, the best one will possibly end up in your hand :)

As said before, intuition is a great mind-trick card, it's far favorable than buried alive. 3 creatures in your gy is too much,if you already play pimps, then that's not even a problem.

But both are quite slow. By turn 3, you should've slammed something on the table.

In the end both are quite slow, you might as well play glimpse of the unthinkable, mill yourself for a lot and find something in there for 1 mana less.

I've played with intuitions, but it didn't quite do it for me, it slowed my deck more than I wanted, the same will obviously go for buried alive as well and I can't pitch that to a FoW

[Oxmo39]

That's why my build also runs Buried Alive, to take some pressure off Entomb. The deck can't purely rely on Entomb, and Careful Study is too inconsistent for me to work with and requires running a useless high creature count. Although it's a little expensive, Buried Alive has been great because it still functions as a triple Entomb, and lines you up to animate multiple times.

I understand your arguments. Buried Alive seems nice in builds playing a low amount of creatures and mystical tutors.
But i don't feel it to be necessary. If your entomb get countered or discarded, you have enough tools to find another one.

Like Practical said : countermagic are a nice addition for this deck. Now I also play Daze as an extra-protection for my key spells and i'm very happy with. I couldn't exchange Daze for Buried Alive.
Furthermore, after side, playing Buried Alive seems very risky...

If I finally decide to drop the studies, I will need other draw spell to replace it and to help digging the deck.
Reaching 3 mana is not always granted with this deck, 4 brainstorms are not enough, I want to had 2 or 3 Ponder.

[practical joke]

If you drop your careful studies, change them with the following

- x careful study
+ 1 intuition
+ (x-1) ponder

now why the intuition?
It gives you a second spell to get your combo online. If you meet a chalice for 1, you are in for a whole lot of "draw-go". an intuition can break that on time. ( response, mystical to either bounce or intuition or show and tell.), since the chances are alot less you have a T1 discard. Ponder isn't very fast either, but at least digs through your deck quite nicely and can also you find you a creature to put in your hand for show and tell.

but those are just my thoughts on the change.

[Oxmo39]

If you drop your careful studies, change them with the following

- x careful study
+ 1 intuition
+ (x-1) ponder

now why the intuition?
It gives you a second spell to get your combo online. If you meet a chalice for 1, you are in for a whole lot of "draw-go". an intuition can break that on time. ( response, mystical to either bounce or intuition or show and tell.), since the chances are alot less you have a T1 discard. Ponder isn't very fast either, but at least digs through your deck quite nicely and can also you find you a creature to put in your hand for show and tell.

but those are just my thoughts on the change.


Thanks for your thoughts :wink:

I just have 3 studies to drop. Actually I was planning to reinsert a singleton of Show & Tell I had previously removed... + 2 Ponder
Show & Tell can unlock those games when we are stuck on draw&go mode by annoying cards like Chalice or Countertop...
I'd rather include it over Intuition...

:eyebrow: Have you taken intuition back in your build ? in place of Echoing truth I suppose..?

[arebennian]

If your looking for a dig spell, and your including Ponder, what about Impulse?
Or is the 2 Mana too expensive?

[practical joke]

No, I haven't.

I still keep my 3 careful study as a much bigger discard outlet and use it to replace dead cards.
It only happened a very few times that I had no use for my study, if I didn't I happily pitched it to a FoW.
Ponder is a very good card to replace study, but it will set your average turn going off a turn slower. At that point every counterspell thrown at your entomb will be one you'll have to fight very hard for, where in most cases they do allow a careful study to happen.

I'm also doubting and will be trying to find a new answer to something like that. But I do demand a new discard outlet.
If I would play ponder I will also know that I will be 1 turn slower and I will have time to be able to play intuition once in a while for it's full use.

Atm I play 1 show and tell mainboard and a second one sideboard ( against discard decks so the one they have me discarded can be refound)
and I play a single echoing truth mainboard. ( solution for chalices/moat/humility/ichorid and some ppl that seems to grab 3+ goyfs when I play an empyrial archangel)

I also only play 3 mystical tutors atm, I can't up that count unless I remove more careful studies. which I wasn't planning to do so.

I won't say that with only 5 creatures 3studies are very good, but due to the lack of serious discard outlets ( since we don't play putrid imp) I will keep playing that.
Another option is to indeed play that imp as discard outlet, but he doesn't replace dead cards like a careful study can, but an imp is much less of a dead topdeck than careful study is.

I might have some time tomorrow to playtest the subtle change for my deck with intuition +2 ponder vs 3 careful studies against 6 diff. decks
( the rock,DDANT,aggro-loam, counterbalance, mono-red goblins and merfolk.)

and so the story continues.

@ arebennian: if you play impulse you might as well play some 2mana draw/discard card like that 100bucks one from 3kingdoms or even lim-dul's vault (less good tutor, but it works.)
But impulse is like intuition quite slow, since on turn 2 you shouldn't be fixing your combo together again unless you are on the control mode. The best is to have 1 mana spells to fix your combo.I think ponder can do that much better than impulse. ( get 3 good cards, or 1 or 2 then fetch, or remove 3 crapcards from top)

[konsultant]

I've been happily running Buried Alive since I first put a list together. Being able to go Dark Ritual Buried Alive turn one or even turn two has been incredibly good for me. Like Di said it may take you a turn but it's triple Entomb so i've chosen the creatures I wanted and it sets up multiple animates faster than anything else. I've found in several match up's animating once is not enough to win the game but animating twice is almost always enough to win.

[arebennian]

List Konsultant?

[JuJuBee]

Hey guys, I came across this thread on google and have found you guys very knowledgeable and helpful. Thanks!

I wanted to post my deck list into this thread, but it's not exactly refined I sent it to the developmental section. I'd love y'alls help on it though.

[Linkin Pac]

Master Shake, is the Tidespout Tyrant only for the ANT matchup? Or is it only for troublesome, non-graveyard hate permanents like Worship (not that it would usually be a problem, just thinking of an example).

[Oxmo39]

Ponder is a very good card to replace study, but it will set your average turn going off a turn slower. At that point every counterspell thrown at your entomb will be one you'll have to fight very hard for, where in most cases they do allow a careful study to happen.

You made the point! That's why it is so hard to drop the studies. it will be never countered and when it allows you to discard a creature, you're golden!
But the chance it happens has decreased now with the numbers of creatures going down to 5.

Yes, ponder is slower but has great advantages that we all know.

This is the dilemma.

But the biggest reason I want to drop the studies is because I really dislike discarding cards that could help me and it often happens. It is a complete card-disadvantage.

@Intuition : I'd rather play the 4th Mystical Tutor over Intuition, as it does the same job.

The differences are intuition costs 3 manas but get you the cards instantly, mystical costs 1 mana but you have to draw. Anyway, Mystical is better.

Mystical can search you every cards in the deck but creatures. However, playing Intuition for creatures doesn't seem good because you will never get the one you need (except for Iona which is played in multiple copies)

Furthermore, although Intuition get you the cards instantly, you won't have enough opened mana to play antoher spell in the same turn. It is not faster than Mystical Tutor...

You shouldn't play less than 4 Mystical :wink: in my humble opinion

[konsultant]

List Konsultant?

My list is fairly close to the list Di runs. We have been working on things together since the unbanning. I don't know all of the exact differences off the top of my head but it's only about 5 cards. I do run a 3rd copy of Buried Alive that he is still trying to fit in.

[Master Shake]

Master Shake, is the Tidespout Tyrant only for the ANT matchup? Or is it only for troublesome, non-graveyard hate permanents like Worship (not that it would usually be a problem, just thinking of an example).
Tidespout Tyrant really shines against Stax and other Chalice Aggro decks. Its also solid in the mirror. I have described this slot in the past as the Tidespout Tyrant/Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus slot. Everyone wants to play one of them, I like Tyrant the most.

[practical joke]

Tidespout Tyrant really shines against Stax and other Chalice Aggro decks. Its also solid in the mirror. I have described this slot in the past as the Tidespout Tyrant/Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus slot. Everyone wants to play one of them, I like Tyrant the most.

I agree on the above. nothing I need to add here.
Chalice aggro and staxx are good match-ups already, so it's not really needed there, but I can see your point, and it's absolutely true.

[andiibooo]

I plan to play this deck for a tournament coming up - I was wondering what kind of creature suite I should run. I run a ~8 creature build with PImp/Cabal Therapys. My meta is mainly control with the rest being either aggro or combo (it seems only one type likes to show up at a time).

It's currently 3 Iona, 1 Inkwell Leviathan, 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind, 1 Blazing Archon, 1 Akroma Angel of Wrath, and 1 Sundering Titan (just a personal fatty pet card).

[practical joke]

You should fit in an empyrial archangel, control has no clue what to do with that one.
The sundering titan isn't that great and if you don't have a huge aggro meta you can put either akroma or sphinx to SB, and board it in when needed.
Also sundering titan isn't a very great card nowadays. The only threat it gives is that you remove a few lands. I do wonder if it's worth playing in a 2-color build ( I play tricolor, and I can assure you, it's no good in there)

[LostButSeeking]

You should fit in an empyrial archangel, control has no clue what to do with that one.


Control nothing. I love Burn's face when they see this come down. . .

[whienot]

B/U Reanimator came in 9th at the Starcitygames St. Louis event.

9th Aaron Brodzinski

1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Thoughtseize
1 Show and Tell
3 Mystical Tutor

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Island

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Blazing Archon
2 Show and Tell
4 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth

Another solid performance, though, not top 8. And a shame, Reanimator has a solid to fantastic matchup against most of the top 8.

[ktkenshinx]

Reanimator really should have made the top 8, according to the official reports. Here is how Aaron Brodzinski (or Bradinski as it is spelled on another place in the tournament report) performed throughout the day.

Round 1: Merfolk, 1-2 Loss
Round 2: Armageddon Stax, 2-1 Win
Round 3: Scepter Chant, 2-0 Win
Round 4: Evagreen, 2-0 Win
Round 5: Dredge, 2-1 Win
Round 6: Evagreen, 2-0 Win
Round 7: Zoo, 0-0-0 Draw

For reference, here is his decklist.

Reanimator by Aaron Brodzinski
Artifact Creatures
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx Of The Steel Wind

Creatures
1 Empyrial Archangel

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force Of Will
3 Mystical Tutor

Legendary Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
1 Show And Tell
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Blazing Archon
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Echoing Truth
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Show And Tell

We can learn two interesting things about this particular Reanimator just based on how it performed at the tournament.

1. I cannot imagine that this deck would have lost the Zoo matchup. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that they voluntarily agreed to accept the draw without even playing a game. If Bradinski had played this match and won, the tiebreakers would almost assuredly have worked in his favor (with his three 2-0 wins), and he would have been in the top 8. Fortune is a cruel mistress.

2. Reanimator lost to one deck all day in a close 1-2 matchup. It was a Merfolk deck, but not just any Merfolk deck. He lost to Sam Cocchiarella's Merfolk deck, a deck that we actually have the list for (unlike the vast majority of decks in this tournament). Here is Cocchiarella's decklist.

Merfolk by Samuel Cocchiarella
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord Of Atlantis
3 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
3 Stifle

Legendary Creatures
2 Kira, Great Glass-spinner

Basic Lands
12 Island

Lands
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Back To Basics
2 Propaganda
3 Divergent Growth
4 Spell Pierce

(Before we start, I have no idea what that Divergent Growth in the sideboard is for, so if someone can tell me, I would be greatly appreciative).

I am not really sure how Reanimator lost to this deck. That is not to say that I am incredulous because the matchup is supposed to be so good. Rather, there is no obvious weakness that Reanimator has to Merfolk based off of these two lists. Here are some possible explanations:

1. Game 2 and 3 Counters
I imagine that Cocchiarella boarded in Spell Pierce for games 2 and 3, increasing his countermagic arsenal. Perhaps he increased it to beyond what Brodzinski could handle; 4 Pierce, 4 Cursecatcher, 3 Daze, and 4 FoW.

2. Relic of Progenitus
The only way that this deck can beat a Relic is with Krosan Grip, of which it only runs 3 copies. This could seriously slow Reanimator down, trying to deal with the Relic instead of trying to win. Unlike Dredge, which is more resilient to graveyard hate, losing one of your 4 creatures to a Relic can be crippling, especially when backed up with countermagic.

3. Fast Clock
Merfolk was not only able to disrupt Reanimator. I bet it simultaneously put it on a quick clock. It was basically like the old analogy goes. Brodzinski was frantically trying to start his car while the trident wielding fishmen lurched towards him.

4. Aether Vial
In all likelihood, Iona did not spell game over for the monoblue Merfolk deck. With a single Aether Vial out, Cocchiarella could continue to crank out men. Lord of Atlantis would have made them unblockable if Reanimator had an island in play (highly likely), which could have made Brodzinski unable to outrace the deck.

5. Maindeck Bounce
If Brodzinski went for a faster kill by not using Iona, he would have opened himself up to Bounce and further countermagic. This would have been a serious problem, and could have set him back two turns.

These are just some possible explanations to explain this particular loss in this particular tournament. Can they be extrapolated to other Merfolk/Reanimator matchups? Maybe, but it is hard to say for sure. These are, however, reasonable explanations for how Brodinzski lost to Cocchiarella at the SCG 10K. Pure speculation, but informed speculation.

-ktkenshinx

[practical joke]

Merfolk is a shitty match-up for reanimate.
Unblockable creatures, fast clock, can't be blocked and plays counters + vials.
wastelands, standstills and stifles.

It has about everything you don't want to face as a reanimate player.

Anyways nice performance, was about time another person was getting a very good result.

It's normal that you lose from merfolk, but it can become a close call

About the zoo match-up, you will win it. ( naya zoo or tribal?) if naya, easy easy easy easy win.

if tribal, it can become tricky, but with akroma ( since they hardly have non-black removal) she seals the game quite quickly.


( he didn't made it into the Top8, due to his early loss, that way he was in the lower resistance group, and unfortunately missed it out.)

[whienot]

I split the top 4 of 33 tonight with Reanimator. Report to come.

[Phoenix Ignition]

(Before we start, I have no idea what that Divergent Growth in the sideboard is for, so if someone can tell me, I would be greatly appreciative).


It's divert.

And I talked to him right after this match, I think Iona got out at least one game but Spell Pierce absolutely rocked for the game 3 win.

Your main problem is that Merfolk's clock is fast, has evasion(!!!) and can pretty much ignore your 3 turn Iona win after you take 8 life to put her out, unless they have a crappy hand. Echoing truth as well. I'll agree with merfolk being one of the worst matchups for this deck.

[whienot]

As promised, a short report. My notes aren't that good, so I apologize if some things are vague.

33 Players, Supergames (http://www.supergamesinc.com/) Alpharetta, GA

Here's the list:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Show and Tell
3x Extirpate
1x Reverent Silence
1x Blazing Archon
1x Bogardan Hellkite

R1 - Tempo Faeries Ugr

Game 1: I get a turn 3 Sphinx of the Steel wind off of Careful Study + Exhume. He manages to chump it for several turns. I win at 48 life.

Game 2: He plays a turn 2 Goyf that gets FoW'd, then gets Reanimated and commence beatdown. Goyf is joined with an Entomb/Exhume fueled Inkwell 2 turns later after my Daze on his Spellstutter wins the counterwar.

Rd 2 - Pitch World (Pulp_Fiction) 2-0
Yes, pitch world. What a fun deck to see played. Check his tournament report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=410511&postcount=8). He did in fact get a Reaper King into play once on the night....:laugh:

Game 1: Turn 3 Careful Study into Sphinx/Reanimate. His removal is all red (Cave-In, Pyrokinesis)
Game 2: See game 1.

Rd 3 - Merfolk (Boo) 1-2

Game 1: He mulls to 5. I'm on the play. I lead with Fetch -> Island, go. Brainstorm eot. I was one card from being able to combo turn 2 with counter back up. I pass the turn. He has nothing also. Turn 3 Entomb -> Iona, Reanimate. I have Force backup as well as a second Reanimate. It resolves and we go to game 2.

Game 2: His draw is nutty. I see Cursecatcher, FoW, Spell Pierce, Tormod's Crypt and Relic.... He told me he had a second Force. Not much to say. I get beated down with little blue men.

Game 3: I mull and keep a mediocre hand. He leads with Wasteland x2 and could never get in this one.

Rd 4 Hex/Depths B/g with Smallpox/Bloodghast 2-0

Game 1: Turn 2 Iona on Black, win.

Game 2: Turn 3 Show and Tell -> Iona, Black. He Living Wishes (I have a FoW, but let it resolve) for Maze of Ith. Awesome, note taken. But, since he could play his deck, an Exhumed Empyrial Archangel takes it home.

Rd 5 - Enchantress 2-1

We're good friends and we both know how this match is supposed to go.

Game 1: Turn 3 Iona on White, gets there.

Game 2: I drop a turn 1 Empyrial Archangel off of Lotus Petal, Careful Study, Reanimte. Enchantress is supposed to be slow right?? He follows up with the nuts. I can Mystical for Reverent Silence, but he has the Replenish.

Game 3: Turn 2 Iona on White. Win.

Top 8: DDFT 2-1

Game 1: I win the roll, mull to 6. He mulls to 5. I Thoughtseize turn 1 seeing B. Mire x2, L. Petal, Cabal Ritual, Doomsday. Take Doomsday. Turn 3 Careful Study, Exhume on Sphinx, and I get out of range.

Game 2: He leads with Xantid Swarm. I fetch -> U. Sea, Thoughtseize seeing LED, C. Ritual, Dark Rit, Fetch, and a Tutor. Take the Tutor, pass. He top decks Internal and goes off with Ad Nauseam.

Game 3: Keep a hand with with 3x Thoughtseize, FoW, Careful Study, U. Sea, Reanimate. I seize seeing Fetch, Bayou, Island, Ad Nauseam, I. Tutor x2 and LED. I take LED. He draws, plays Bayou, pass. I draw Brainstorm, play Brainstorm (Entomb, Iona, Land). Next turn I Careful Study -> Iona + random card, Reanimate on Black. Get there.

Top 4 split.

The main deck perfomed well for me. I'm still not sold on Akroma, but wanted to give her a shot, since others are convinced she deserves a slot. The sideboard is atrocious. I usually play 3 Grip, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 P. Needle, 2 E. Truth, 2 H. Recall, 1 R. Silence and 1 Blazing Archon, but wanted to give other cards a change. EE is versatile and is sound in theory, but I never used it. I missed Pithing Needle and Spell Pierce.

[Anusien]

If Merfolk is that bad, why not sideboard some Llewan, Cephalid Empress? It's expected to be all over the upcoming SCG $5ks.

Also, I'm surprised somebody chose to draw after starting the day 0-1. It makes your tiebreakers terrible.

[Nekrataal]

I do not play ET SB anymore since Grip and Recall are much better alongside 2 Needle and 2 EE (especially against Vials, Crypts, Relics). The only thing you get with ET is a removed GY and the 2nd Relic or Crypt still in play (if your opponent is smart enough to sac the targeted one by ET). It is really weak imho. I still play Blazing Archon main because of Dredge (huge Metagame factor here) and it is also good for Mono U Merfolk since they usually play max 2 or no bounce (mostly ET) maindeck and not much more in the SB. You still can counter it when it shows up.

My list however ist almost identical to the one above except I just play one Iona. I never felt the need to play two since you try to Entomb smart. The only nuisance here is Extirpate which can come as a surprise and ruin your plans no matter how many Ionas you play.. but in how many games a 2nd is needed ???

SB is also very similar: Except for Extirpate and RSilence. In that slots I play 2 Needle, 2 Relic of P and since I play 1 Iona less, Blazing Archon is main and Hellkit is a Tidespout Tyrant.

[whienot]

Iona is the best reanimation target in "most" matches. Running multiples increases your chance of being able to use Careful Study or Show & Tell to get her in the grave or the battlefield and not be so reliant on Entomb. I used to run the third in the Akroma slot, but wanted to try out Akroma since others have had success with her.

[andiibooo]

Is Empyrial Archangel really that good against zoo and burn? I figured they could just - you know - burn her out. Something like a swing with wild nacatl and any 2 burn spells.

[coraz86]

Is Empyrial Archangel really that good against zoo and burn? I figured they could just - you know - burn her out. Something like a swing with wild nacatl and any 2 burn spells.

That's nine or ten damage that you didn't take, though. Sligh and Zoo have absolutely no problem dealing those first 20 damage, but they have problems dealing you 30 or 40.

On that note, has anyone considered Phantom Nishoba? I seem to remember those being pretty good against burn/Goblins once upon a time.

[Illissius]

On that note, has anyone considered Phantom Nishoba? I seem to remember those being pretty good against burn/Goblins once upon a time.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

[coraz86]

Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I sit corrected.

Carry on.

[practical joke]

playing both akroma and sphinx is quite unnecessary mainboard.
you should choose one of them.

Why I chose akroma, she kills every deck that sphinx also kills, but has haste as well. She can become an unexpected alphastrike the sphinx can not.
The sphinx is in SB for me, adding it when i play against zoo,loam,goblins etc.

nice report, btw, against DDANT, try to learn the way of playing that deck. You'll notice where the weak links are quite fast, he might've not won that 2nd match then :)


grats on your price

[whienot]

For those not aware, two Reanimator decks made top4 at the Dec. 19th tourny at Jupiter Games. Both were Buried Alive builds.

3rd place - Tariq White
1 island
4 swamp
2 bayou
4 underground sea
4 marsh flats
4 polluted delta
2 dark ritual
3 duress
4 entomb
3 buried alive
1 reanimate
4 animate dead
4 exhume
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 mystical tutor
4 force of will
1 empyrial archangel
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 inkwell leviathan
1 iona, shield of emeria

sb
1 duress
3 extirpate
3 echoing truth
1 rebuild
1 rushing river
3 krosan grip
1 crovax, ascendant hero
1 thunder dragon
1 sundering titan

4th place - colin chilbert

1 iona shield of emeria
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 inkwell leviathon
1 blazing archon
4 entomb
2 buried alive
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 mystical tutor
4 exhume
3 animate dead
3 Reanimate
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
4 dark ritual
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
1 marsh flats
4 underground sea
2 bayou
3 swamp
1 island

sb
3 krosan grip
2 rushing river
2 pithing needle
1 empyrial archangel
2 duress
2 ravenous trap
1 natures rain
1 tormods crypt
1 thunder dragon

[spiderfreak]

Hi not alot to say, cuz i forget a alot (sorry)
31 ppl made top 4 with

1 Island
4 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Entomb
3 Buried Alive
1 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

------Sideboard------

1 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
1 Thunder Dragon
1 Sundering Titan

I want 4-1

beating black/green with Natural Order
beating 43 land
losing to zoo
beating zoo
beating 43 land
top 8 beating Dredge
top 4 losing to Natural Order Bant

all in all a day good

[Rune]

I'm contemplating building Reanimator but it seems to me that ANT and Reanimator have very similar matchups, except it's very hard for Reanimator to win vs some control decks like Landstill, whereas it's considerably easier for ANT to win those matches. Can someone enlighten me as to why you would choose to play Reanimator over ANT?

[andiibooo]

Personally I find ANT to be a bit fragile when combo'ing off against control. Playing blue control, I've never lost against ANT, couple counters and they basically scoop. Reanimator only has two pieces: something to get a creature into the yard, and a reanimation spell and the deck has tons of redundancy and card manipulation (ponder, careful study, brainstorm, tutor) to fight through counters and hate.

Also, grats to spider and di. How was playing with buried alive - I personally it to cost too much to play, especially that many copies. And how would you feel about the matchups you played against?

[Di]

I'm contemplating building Reanimator but it seems to me that ANT and Reanimator have very similar matchups, except it's very hard for Reanimator to win vs some control decks like Landstill, whereas it's considerably easier for ANT to win those matches. Can someone enlighten me as to why you would choose to play Reanimator over ANT?

Reanimator has a much easier time vs. control decks than Storm combo, especially if you add Landstill into the mix. Landstill is arguably one of Reanimator's best matchups because they have as many counters as you have disruption, not to mention they still need to handle all your bury and Animate spells, and have virtually no clock which gives you all the time in the world to set up and stick Iona, which they have no outs to dealing with.

Counterbalance decks are also much easier for us because we can handle Counterbalance itself much easier with Force of Will and sideboard Krosan Grip and Rushing Rivers which are easier to find and cast than with ANT, but also because it can fight through Counterbalance much easier. It is very difficult for ANT to combo through a Counterbalance because they need to resolve most, if not all the spells they cast in order to hit enough mana to win. Reanimator instead has the flexibility of only needing to resolve 1-2 spells through Counterbalance, which makes it easier on us.

On top of this, Reanimator is much better at going off multiple times than ANT. If ANT fails to go off once against a control deck, it's difficult for them to do it again as you need so many cards to do so. If Reanimator is stopped from comboing, it can continue to try it over and over again because there is so little needed to combo in the first place.


Also, grats to spider and di. How was playing with buried alive - I personally it to cost too much to play, especially that many copies. And how would you feel about the matchups you played against?

Buried Alive was very good for me all day. It worked incredibly well with Dark Ritual, and as additional copies of Entomb I was very pleased with it.

I'll write a short report within a day or two, but here are the matchups I played against:

Round 1: TES, I win 2-0
Round 2: Eva Green w/ Bloodghast and Entomb, I win 2-1
Round 3: Zoo, I win 3-0
Draw round 4 and 5 lol
Top8: 43 Lands, I win 2-1
Top4: Natural Order Bant, I lose 2-0

Granted I did lose 2-0 to Countertop, I lost through landscrew and nothing else, having a total of 3 lands between the two games. In the upcoming report I'll discuss the matches in detail, and then provide a bit of analysis on my list, what worked and what didn't work, and what changes the deck needs for future events.

[practical joke]

All those matches you played are considered a walk in the park for my version of the deck...
You can have bad luck against counterbalance, it's not the easiest match-up.

@ spiderfreak:how random is playing 2 dark rituals in a buried alive deck? are there any reasons why you played some cards with certain ammounts, because I'm not very impressed with the results you booked with that list since your match-ups are considered very easy. sideboard seems quite random as well.
Then again, I don't know your meta.


if you consider playing ANt or Reanimate...I'd choose ANT ( more consistent once you learned how to play with it well)

Reanimate's match-ups are different from ANT's. because compared to ANT, we CAN win actually every match-up. ANT will probably die horribly on counterbalance, where reanimate can take it down.
Reanimate is much more easier to play if you are not that experienced.
About the zoo decks? where they naya or domain?

Grats on both results nonetheless :)
good to see my pet-deck working as intended after unbanning of entomb.

[spiderfreak]

@ spiderfreak:how random is playing 2 dark rituals in a buried alive deck? are there any reasons why you played some cards with certain ammounts, because I'm not very impressed with the results you booked with that list since your match-ups are considered very easy. sideboard seems quite random as well.
Then again, I don't know your meta.



was playing 17 lands and 4 rituals. did not like not having lands, so want to 19 lands and 2 rituals. it did not go off turn 1 or 2 alot, but turn 3 a good amount of the time. im now back to 4 rituals and 19 lands.

@meta i don't know too lol that way i have what i have

[practical joke]

Hi not alot to say, cuz i forget a alot (sorry)
31 ppl made top 4 with

1 Island
4 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Entomb
3 Buried Alive
1 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

------Sideboard------

1 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
1 Thunder Dragon
1 Sundering Titan




I still see 2 rituals here on that tournament, why crovax?

[Forbiddian]

I still see 2 rituals here on that tournament, why crovax?

It's about the only thing that could beat a resolved Thropter Foundry. Although they can still gain 1 life per land they have.

It's also pretty good vs. Goblins or w/e.

[arebennian]

There are a few things that stick out for me from the previous successful lists:

- Lack of Show and Tell (one of in the main or sideboard)
- Only 3 Thoughtsieze as actual discard between the two decks (not that you would want to target yourself, but in a pinch). I imagine the play is brainstorm, put it back and then Entomb?
- Mystical Tutor as a 4of rather than a 3of
- Reduction of Reanimate in favour of Animate Dead
- Over 8 Animation spells

NOTE: I don't disagree with these, and I can guess your reasoning but I would appreciate it if you could summise these choices when you give a deck breakdown Di; just for the sake of completeness.

[whienot]

@Practical Joke

was playing 17 lands and 4 rituals. did not like not having lands, so went to 19 lands and 2 rituals

I can see the reasoning behind cutting back on Reanimate and adding Animate Dead. Sometimes the lifeloss is just too much of a liability.

I imagine the lack of Show and Tell has something to do with only playing 4 creatures. Show and Tell drops in value when you aren't likely to have fat in your hand.

And 8+ Reanimation spells combos with Buried Alive. Multiple reanimations ftw. They also gives a sense of inevitability against non-counterbalance control.

[spiderfreak]

I still see 2 rituals here on that tournament, why crovax?

after the tournament i want back to 4 rituals. i did not like not going off T1,T2

@ crovax, Dredge

[conboy31]

I have played around with this version some: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15359

It looks a bit different than the current versions, and the current versions actually fix some of the problems I found.

A) the deck needs brainstorm. It has too many bricks and once it goes into topdeck mode a brainstorm + fetch in hand can be the difference between going on to win or sitting there.
B) If you are playing against blue and suspect they have the slightest chance of bringing in Sower of Temptation, sideboard accordingly. Its tough to top the punch in the junk when your t2 Sphinx of the steel wind is control magic'd on t4.

[Dark Ritual]

Show and Tell seems to work better in lists with intuition...get 3 fatties, they force you to keep one in hand, then you show and tell it into play which shouldn't be hard with our tutor package of mystical tutor, brainstorm, and ponder.

Reanimate is more combo-y than animate dead because animate dead is aiming for consistency and not losing tons of life. Although animate dead is still iffy cause it is much more vulnerable as a permanent and qasali pridemage can just wreck us if they resolve pridemage and our only reanimation card in hand is animate dead whereas reanimate is permanent if it resolves.

[Vacrix]

Show and Tell seems to work better in lists with intuition...get 3 fatties, they force you to keep one in hand, then you show and tell it into play which shouldn't be hard with our tutor package of mystical tutor, brainstorm, and ponder.

Reanimate is more combo-y than animate dead because animate dead is aiming for consistency and not losing tons of life. Although animate dead is still iffy cause it is much more vulnerable as a permanent and qasali pridemage can just wreck us if they resolve pridemage and our only reanimation card in hand is animate dead whereas reanimate is permanent if it resolves.

I also support Intuition over Buried Alive. In addition to working well with Show and Tell, it insures that you will have a creature in your hand in the case in which your opponent removes your grave. You can play intuition at the end of your opponent's turn too, unlike buried alive.

I've had problems with both reanimate and animate dead, losing randomly to oblivion rings, pridgemage, etc. on my animate dead, or just not having the life to use reanimate, but reanimate is just too good to run 1 copy like some of these lists.

Also, for lists running 4 dark ritual...have you tried Living Death? WOGing and getting creatures from your grave is pretty legit. In fact, you already run Mystical tutor, enabling you to fetch it in sticky situations.

[konsultant]

The left field lists that Di and Spiderfreak are playing don't run Careful Study or Show and Tell, they also only run one copy of each creature making Intuition not as strong of a choice as Buried Alive in that slot.

Personally and I believe I can speak for them on this I prefer running as few creatures as possable to leave as much room for other cards as possable, I would also rather go off with the creature of my choice and not the one I happened to open hand. Careful Study can be amazing and it can be subpar, we have tested lists with it and we have come to prefer a list like the two lists that are posted above. Clearly Practical Joke has proven the capability of Careful Study and that it can certainly get you the win, we are just testing a different direction with the deck and so far it has been very successful.

[Di]

There are a few things that stick out for me from the previous successful lists:

- Lack of Show and Tell (one of in the main or sideboard)
- Only 3 Thoughtsieze as actual discard between the two decks (not that you would want to target yourself, but in a pinch). I imagine the play is brainstorm, put it back and then Entomb?
- Mystical Tutor as a 4of rather than a 3of
- Reduction of Reanimate in favour of Animate Dead
- Over 8 Animation spells

NOTE: I don't disagree with these, and I can guess your reasoning but I would appreciate it if you could summise these choices when you give a deck breakdown Di; just for the sake of completeness.

I finally have time to break this down, so here it goes. I'll be using my current list as a starting point of the breakdown instead though, which isn't all that different, but there are some important changes. I will mention here regarding Show and Tell, neither of these lists, including my current one, run more than 4 maindeck creatures. That's far too few to abuse Show and Tell consistently. In a build running 7+ creatures that's a terrific option, but these builds don't have that option. But for my report of my top4 performance at Eli's this past weekend uses the list that was posted above.

Round 1: TES

Game 1: He mulligans, and I'm on the play but don't know what he's playing, and open an insane hand with Swamp, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume, Force, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor. I go off for Inkwell Leviathan not knowing what he's doing, but we can't win in 3 turns either way through Force of Will.

SB: +2 Duress -1 Buried Alive -1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

[Note: I will mention that going into this event, having changed things around right before playing I didn't have set sideboarding strategies so a lot of my sideboarding may look random or bizarre.]

Game 2: I open a ridiculous hand against him with 2 land, Force, Brainstorm, 2 Duress and a Thoughtseize. I also ended up Brainstorming into an additional Thoughtseize. Needless to say, his hand was completely destroyed, and he was forced to attempt to combo fast because I got an Entomb but no animate effect, and he couldn't win through Force before I got Iona into play.

2-0
1-0


Round 2: Eva Green w/ Entomb and Bloodghast

Game 1: I know what he's playing since I watched his match previously so that helped. I ended up doing a lot of scouting during the event so I had a good idea of what I went into every single round. I'm on the play and open with a Ritual and Buried Alive. His turn one is land, go. My second turn I play Exhume for Iona on black and he scoops.

SB: +2 Duress +2 Rushing River +2 Pithing Needle, -3 Dark Ritual -1 Buried Alive -1 Mystical Tutor -1 Inkwell Leviathan

Game 2: I mulligan on the draw and open a hand of Island, Ponder, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume, Animate Dead. I'll take it. He plays land, go. I Ponder into 2 Brainstorm and Buried Alive, and think long and hard about it before I decide to stay, assuming I'll find a black source from the Brainstorms. Naturally, I don't find a single land off either of them, and end up dying to a Bloodghast and a 3/4 Tarmogoyf. Weak.

Game 3: I open a questionably slow hand of 3 land, 2 Buried Alive, Exhume, Animate Dead on the draw. Turn 1 he Cabal Therapies and blindly names Buried Alive. Great. I draw Brainstorm and pass. Turn 2 he plays land go, which puzzles me. At that point I figured he was playing Extirpate, and decided to play around it. I Brainstorm eot and find a Mystical. I play my 3rd land and say go. On his turn, he plays Wasteland and Sinkhole on my two Seas. Ouch. We play draw go for two turns until he drops a Tombstalker. I pluck a second land and say go. He draws a Bloodghast and hits me down to 13 with Tombstalker. I eot Mystical for Entomb. My turn I draw Entomb and pass with only 2 lands in play. He attacks me down to 6 and passes, and I endstep Entomb for Sphinx of the Steel Wind. My turn I Exhume...and it resolves with him having 4 cards in hand. He seems rather upset. His hand is 3 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Snuff Out. lol. Sphinx of the Steel Wind goes the distance for me.

2-1
2-0

Round 3: Zoo

Game 1: On the play I open a nutty hand of 2 land, Brainstorm, Entomb, Exhume, Mystical, Ponder. I have a turn 2 Iona, he kills it when I block a Kird Ape and he double Bolts, but can't deal with it when I Exhume it the next turn.

SB: +2 Rushing River +2 Pithing Needle +1 Empyrial Archangel, -3 Thoughtseize -1 Buried Alive, -1 Dark Ritual

Game 2: On the draw I open a hand of land, Entomb, Reanimate, Mystical, Inkwell, Brainstorm, Exhume. I don't draw the land on my turn, and I end up Entombing endstep and Reanimating Sphinx, hoping he doesn't have a Path. He doesn't, and I upkeep Mystical for Force of Will to protect Sphinx to go the distance.

2-0
3-0

The tournament was only 5 rounds, and I ID in both round 4 and 5.


Top 8: 43 Lands w/ Black for Entomb

Game 1: I'm on the draw, and open a terrible hand of 4 land, Dark Ritual, Animate Dead...Iona! He plays Exploration and some lands and says go. I draw and dump Iona. He does some land stuff, and my turn I Ritual Animate Iona naming green. She goes the distance.

SB: +2 Ravenous Trap +1 Tormod's Crypt +2 Pithing Needle +2 Rushing River +1 Krosan Grip +1 Empyrial Archangel, -4 Force of Will -3 Thoughtseize -1 Buried Alive -1 something I can't remember

Game 2: He opens with a Leyline, and my hand is 3 land, Mystical, Entomb, Exhume, Pithing Needle. I play my land and say go. He plays a Rishadan Port and says go. My 2nd turn I play Needle on Wasteland. I eot Mystical for Krosan Grip, and he draws and plays another Leyline. Hilarious. I kill one on his end step, then say go. Time flys by, and he manages to get 3 Ports in play to lock me down. I eventually sculpt a hand of Ritual, Ritual, Rushing River, 2 Entomb, Exhume, Animate Dead, but need another land in order to River his Leyline on my upkeep then go nuts. This went on for roughly 8-9 turns. Sadly I don't find the land in time, and on my last possible turn when I do get it, when I go off he has a Coffin Purge waiting for me.


Game 3: He doesn't have a Leyline, which is awesome. I open a sick hand of 2 land, Entomb, Mystical, Exhume, Ravenous Trap, Rushing River. I open with basic Island, go. He plays lands. I eot Mystical for Dark Ritual, and my turn I play Underground, Ritual Entomb Exhume Inkwell into play. He manages to get Tabernacle into play but I have the lands to pay for it, and I Trap him in his Loam shenanigans so he can't find Glacial Chasm in time.

2-1
4-0-2


Top 4: Natural Order Bant

Game 1: On the draw I open a hand of Island, Brainstorm, Buried Alive, Exhume, Exhume, Animate Dead, Reanimate. He plays land go. I don't draw a land and pass. He plays a Tarmogoyf, and I respond with a Brainstorm seeing triple Entomb. Frown. At this point, he has a full grip and a Tarmogoyf in play and I will be getting time walked for two straight turns, so I just move on to game 2. In retrospect I could've stayed in the game, but I would've been so far behind I wouldn't be able to come back.

SB: +2 Rushing River +2 Krosan Grip +1 Nature's Ruin +2 Duress +1 Empyrial Archangel, -4 Dark Ritual -1 Buried Alive -1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind, -2 Mystical Tutor

Game 2: I open a hand with 1 land, Ponder, Entomb, Nature's Ruin, Rushing River, Duress, and Krosan Grip. I Ponder turn 1 and find garbage then shuffle and peel Brainstorm. He plays a Noble Hierarch and passes. My turn I play Brainstorm and draw into a basic Island. He plays Counterbalance and passes. My upkeep I play Mystical and it resolves through CB. I get Entomb, then Duress him, taking Force of Will. He attacks and passes. My turn I fail to draw a land, and cast Entomb, he responds with Brainstorm and counters it. Next turn he plays Natural Order and gets Progenitus. I fail to draw the 3rd land for the rest of the game with Nature's Ruin, Krosan Grip, and Rushing River in hand. I try a desperation Exhume for Archangel after I manage to resolve an Entomb, but he has the Daze. Sad times.

0-2
4-1-2


Now, granted this report shows that I didn't have a difficult road to success, it revealed a lot of the flaws of the deck and what needed to change. So, here is my current list followed by the breakdown:

Left Field Reanimator

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Empyrial Archangel

4 Entomb
2 Buried Alive
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead

4 Dark Ritual
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Reverent Silence
2 Rushing River
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkle's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Nature's Ruin
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt/Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Blazing Archon



4 Creatures: Standard creatures here. After continuous testing with different versions of the deck, I'm convinced the small creature package is still the best. It provides the best draws, best lategame, and most consistency, not to mention it makes your opening hands much stronger. On the creatures themselves, although the Blazing Archon was great for the metagame, it's weaker overall so I swapped the Archangel back to the maindeck. This could continuously change though, because Archon is an autowin against Ichorid and Merfolk game 1. Otherwise nothing else is different.

4 Entomb: Yeah.

2 Buried Alive: These are stellar to me as additional Entombs, and I think they're better than Careful Study as Study doesn't guarantee a creature in the yard. When running Dark Rituals they become so much faster and more powerful. Overall I'm really happy with them.

4 Mystical Tutor: Although I still believe 4 can be a burden if you open multiples, they're still good in this situation as it guarantees a combo by turn 3. You want the most consistency out of the deck, and having all the tutors is needed to accomplish this.

8 Cantrips: There really isn't any need to comment about this.

9 Animates: I was running 10 as I loved the consistency of having multiples to go through opposing disruption, but I cut the 10th for the 4th Mystical Tutor, which is acceptable. The current configuration is the best I can make it imo, and it's been great.

7 Disruption: This was arguably the biggest eyebrow-raiser of the list, mainly because I only ran 3 Thoughtseize in the maindeck. The reason to me is that Thoughtseize is the weakest card in the deck. It's a poor mid/lategame draw, and it's only good in a portion of the matches. Still, it's a necessary disruption piece, so I keep at least additional discard in the sideboard so I can increase them in control matches. And Force of Will needs no justification.

18 lands, 4 Dark Ritual: The list I ran to the top4 of the latest Eli's event was 17 land. It wasn't enough. In my testing it ran fine, but I constantly saw very few lands, and ALL of the games I lost were due to manascrew. All of them. After I increased the count to 18 I haven't seen as many problems. However, I will say this about the manabase:

- Running under 18 land is dangerous, even with a curve as low as ours. I do have 2 Buried Alive, but they aren't seen as often as the rest of the deck, which is composed of 26 1cc cards and 6 2cc cards. Running fewer will have a significant effect on the consistency of the manabase, not to mention it will struggle mightily against mana-denial decks like Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, or even 43 Lands. If you are arguing for a list with 15-16 lands, I believe you are either A. Not doing sufficient testing against those decks named above, B. Don't have enough tournament experience with the deck, or C. Are lying about things and are making these lists off the top of your hand. Having the higher land count, which can occasionally flood you slightly, will guarantee having a sufficient number of land drops a majority of the time, and will also fight opposing Wastelands and such much, much better. You can get away with 17 but it's risky, but I personally advise at least 18 lands.


The sideboard:

2 Krosan Grip/1 Reverent Silence split: This was originally 3 Grip, but after seeing an increase in Leyline of the Voids, I opted for a single Silence. Silence is still good against Counterbalance as it's free and they likely won't be able to counter it, but being able to kill multiple Leyline of the Voids without having to pay anything is great as it increases the speed of your answers.

Bounce Package (1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Hurkle's Recall, 2 Rushing River): I decided to change this up based on speed applications. I really missed Echoing Truth as I lacked something that could hit multiples, and Chain of Vapor is the fastest slot we have, which is big against aggro decks. Rushing River is still notably good against everything despite being a little slower, but hitting multiple permanents is solid. The Recall is also decent despite being narrow, but I run it over a 2nd Truth because it will hit Relic and Crypt at once, and is great against Chalice decks or Stax, and Affinity should you run into it.

1 Nature's Ruin: This is an interesting slot for me. It could be another bounce spell, but there are times when I really wish I had an option of kills creatures. This could very well be something like Infest to hit weenies, but I'm more concerned with the Bant-style decks that have Rhox War Monk and Progenitus. This is the worst slot of the sideboard, but given how swingy that match is, I like the option of dealing with it. It also isn't terrible against something like Zoo, although I generally wouldn't board it in against them. Odds are though, this slot will be cut for something else that isn't as narrow, I'm just out of ideas at this time.

Graveyard hate (2 Ravenous Trap, 1 Tormod's Crypt/Extirpate): Ichorid is an iffy match. They can race us very easily and can win through our creatures. Having graveyard hate is big imo to help this. It also doesn't hurt against the mirror, loam decks with Glacial Chasm, etc. The Crypt/Extirpate slot is debatable. I prefer Crypt because it's stronger against those decks, but Extirpate is an option to Mystical Tutor for to hit something important.

2 Duress: I explained this above with the Thoughtseize comments. These are merely to provide additional disruption against control decks and black decks. I've been happy with them.

1 Blazing Archon: It's great against Ichorid, Merfolk, and other aggro strategies. I just moved it to the side in favor of Empyrial Archangel because shroud is becoming a bit more necessary for me, but this can go either way. As mentioned previously it's an autowin against a few decks game 1, so running this main isn't a bad idea.


I also support Intuition over Buried Alive. In addition to working well with Show and Tell, it insures that you will have a creature in your hand in the case in which your opponent removes your grave. You can play intuition at the end of your opponent's turn too, unlike buried alive.

I've had problems with both reanimate and animate dead, losing randomly to oblivion rings, pridgemage, etc. on my animate dead, or just not having the life to use reanimate, but reanimate is just too good to run 1 copy like some of these lists.

Also, for lists running 4 dark ritual...have you tried Living Death? WOGing and getting creatures from your grave is pretty legit. In fact, you already run Mystical tutor, enabling you to fetch it in sticky situations.


Intuition works better than Buried Alive solely when you run a higher creature count. If you keep a low, singleton count of creatures you can't abuse it properly because you might not get the correct creature in your graveyard. I've already explained the advantages of running a build with so few reanimation targets, but in the event that you're running a higher-creature build that features multiples of important targets (Iona, shroud creatures, Sphinx of the Steel Wind) and Careful Study, then Intuition is the more optimal choice.

Regarding the Reanimate and Animate Dead problems, these are going to be common with any player because they're the drawbacks of the cards. Part of the reason I went down to 2 Animate Dead is because it has the liability of being destroyed. Reanimate is not a 4of to me because I don't want to see it as consistently as Exhume because the life loss hurts in so many situations, but it's still too good to only be a singleton. Either way, we don't have better options so we don't have a choice but to use them.

On the topic of Living Death, it's crossed our minds on several occasions, and would be great way of killing aggro decks and getting multiple creatures in play. But the 5cc casting cost is far too restrictive for us, so we can't abuse it properly. It's rare enough we even get to 5 mana, even with Dark Ritual, so it isn't a worthwhile option. Still, it'd be awesome if someone pulled it off.

[Phoenix Ignition]

1 Nature's Ruin: This is an interesting slot for me. It could be another bounce spell, but there are times when I really wish I had an option of kills creatures. This could very well be something like Infest to hit weenies, but I'm more concerned with the Bant-style decks that have Rhox War Monk and Progenitus. This is the worst slot of the sideboard, but given how swingy that match is, I like the option of dealing with it. It also isn't terrible against something like Zoo, although I generally wouldn't board it in against them. Odds are though, this slot will be cut for something else that isn't as narrow, I'm just out of ideas at this time

No love for Perish? I mean I guess green creatures don't normally regenerate and Therapy is going to hit it a little less (not really since you are going to Mystical Tutor for it 3/4 of the time). Any reason for that? Perish is strictly better.

[Di]

No love for Perish? I mean I guess green creatures don't normally regenerate and Therapy is going to hit it a little less (not really since you are going to Mystical Tutor for it 3/4 of the time). Any reason for that? Perish is strictly better.

I own the card and it's cooler. Given that you will never see regeneration in this format (and I'll argue if I do see a green creature regenerating across from me, I think I have a bye against a scrub), it makes absolutely no difference which card you use. They both do the same thing.

[Enigma]

There is some Mono Green deck running River Boa so I would never run Nature's Ruin over Perish, and this deck does very well here in Montreal. (Plus, they have Chalice and Trini, so it is not necessarily a great great MU)

Gratz on your finishes guys!

P-M

[Di]

There is some Mono Green deck running River Boa so I would never run Nature's Ruin over Perish, and this deck does very well here in Montreal. (Plus, they have Chalice and Trini, so it is not necessarily a great great MU)

Gratz on your finishes guys!

P-M

Alright, there are slight possibilities of regeneration. In that case, just consider the card Perish lol. I merely have it because I like the card and I happen to own it (and don't own a Perish), but do what you will with that slot. :)

Although I will say, the regeneration of a River Boa isn't exactly scary compared to the rest of that deck, nor is it scary in the face of any of the creatures I play. But your point is noted.

[Forbiddian]

I played this deck a few times in testing.

I really think it's missing -1 Brainstorm or Ponder, +1 Careful Study.

Careful Study straight up isn't that much worse than Brainstorm or Ponder. Next to Brainstorm, you draw one less card, but you're also not stuck going through the same material if you're digging for a specific card and can't find a fetchland.

It's much, much better if you happen to have a creature in hand. Not that this happens a lot (about half the time early game to about 60% or 70% late game -- not nearly enough to justify a card like Show and Tell, but probably enough to make Careful Study passable), but when it does happen, it saves you a whole combo piece AND acts as card draw/filtration.

There were two or three games just in testing where I really wanted to Mystical Tutor for Careful Study, because the creature I wanted to Animate was in hand (or just because I had a passable creature in hand, and Careful Study is demonstrably better than Entomb in that situation). If the only creature you want is in hand, you need to leap through some hoops to get it out, but Careful Study shortcuts all the hoops.


Multiple copies of Careful Study in this build would probably not be worth it, but I really missed having SOMETHING to tutor up that takes advantage of having the creature in hand. Just something to think about. Nice tournament report at any rate.

[arebennian]

It's much, much better if you happen to have a creature in hand. Not that this happens a lot (about half the time early game to about 60% or 70% late game -- not nearly enough to justify a card like Show and Tell, but probably enough to make Careful Study passable), but when it does happen, it saves you a whole combo piece AND acts as card draw/filtration.

There were two or three games just in testing where I really wanted to Mystical Tutor for Careful Study, because the creature I wanted to Animate was in hand (or just because I had a passable creature in hand, and Careful Study is demonstrably better than Entomb in that situation). If the only creature you want is in hand, you need to leap through some hoops to get it out, but Careful Study shortcuts all the hoops.


You could always Mystical for Thoughtsieze...

Would you really search for Careful Study with Mystical in the same situation if you had 1 Show and Tell maindeck (although the argument that Show and Tell can be a dead card when drawn is offset by S&T getting around Hate. True?).



DI:
Why no Thunder Dragon in the SB? Is it because by the time you need to play it you have taken too much damage anyway?

[whienot]

Just got back from my weekly legacy tournament where I split in the top 4 again. 26 players.

Rd 1: Bye
Rd 2: Eva Green 2-1 (Iona wins)
Rd 3: Ugbw Counterbalance control 2-0 (Inkwell g1, Iona - white g2)
Rd 4: Belcher 2-0 (Thoughtseize + Iona - red)
Top 8: Belcher 2-1 (He wins g1, Game 2 I have a quick Iona - Red, Game 3 he turn 1 B. Wish looking for Empty......he boarded it in. Terrible for him. A reanimated Street Wraith and Sphinx win.)

I played the same list as last time, just changing Akroma for Iona #3.

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
3 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Thunder Dragon
1 Massacre (every goblin build in my meta is Rw)

[Di]

DI:
Why no Thunder Dragon in the SB? Is it because by the time you need to play it you have taken too much damage anyway?


Thunder Dragon is rather narrow as far as when it will be good. Essentially, it's only good if I'm playing against an aggro deck and they're capable of getting rid of my creature but I still need to sweep their board. That situation is rather uncommon, so in many cases getting Sphinx, Blazing Archon, or even Empyrial Archangel is just a better play. Plus the fact that it doesn't kill Tarmogoyf really puts me off. I imagine you only brought it up because it was in my sideboard for that event, but the sole reason it was there was because I needed to fill slots at the last second as I was a little unorganized due to a busy night prior the event and didn't have a chance to get everything together in time.

[conboy31]

Ad Di mentioned, scouting is huge. As I play test against someone, I notice that my win % goes up quite a bit from the first time we play (vs unknown deck) until the end when I generally know their deck and can maximize Iona, and other lines of play. In one tournament I did not know what someone was playing and could get any creature t1. I decided Inkwell was the safest and played him. They go... swamp, rit, smallpox. Weee. Knowledge = Iona, black, game, en route match.

[JonBarber]

What would you guys recommend as a budget land base to this deck? (No dual lands or search lands).

[Greenpoe]

You could run 5-color lands, since they tend to be cheaper I think. Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Thran Quarry, Tarnished Citadel, and perhaps Lotus Petals as well. Maybe even Gemstone Caverns too, or just plain old Ravnica shock lands.

[Dissolution]

Or you could go with a mono-Black build. I've had some success in testing, though I am running a small splash for green just for sideboard stuff.
-T

[kicks_422]

Well, Terramorphic Expanse would set you back a lot since the deck always wants to do something Turn 1. You could go with Underground Rivers, I guess. The lifeloss could pile up for the Reanimates though.

Or you could just go mono-black for 18+ Swamps. Those are cheap.

[magicxsoldier]

Im also seeking somewhat of a budget alternative...what are the primary differences between the B/U version and the mono-black?

[Sims]

Counter magic and deck manipulation. You have to run proactive disruption as opposed to running the reactive one that protects your shit and keeps combo from going off. It hurts but it's not unplayable. If cash wasn't an option though, i'd probably stick to the B/U. All things considered though, i've been doing fine playing Mono-Black.

[konsultant]

11x Swamp
6x Fetch
2x Bayou
4x Dark Ritual

4x Entomb
4x Buried Alive

4x Beseech the Queen

2x Undead Gladiator

3x Reanimte
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
2x Dance of the Dead

4x Duress
2x Thoughtsieze

1x Iona
1x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Inkwell

SB
1x Iona
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Sundering Titan
2x Ravenous Trap
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Null Rod
2x Krosan Grip
1x Rev Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
2x City of Solitude
1x Simplify

This was a black green build I had put together, you could easily cut the green and play it mono black. I played it at the last black lotus event that Eli held and went 5-3 on the day. One loss was to a huge punt on my part, was my first actual tournament with the deck and another loss was to my not drawing a second mana source in any of the 5 turns I had, I did have to mull to 5 that game but I opened Swamp, Entomb, 2x Duress, Exhume for game 3 against Zoo in round 8. Had I hit another mana source I would have been in top 16. The only loss I had where I was just beaten down was against Bant and I still took him to game 3.

I do think Force of Will is the best option for this deck but if you wanted to start on a budget that list without green is fairly cheap.

[magicxsoldier]

Counter magic and deck manipulation. You have to run proactive disruption as opposed to running the reactive one that protects your shit and keeps combo from going off. It hurts but it's not unplayable. If cash wasn't an option though, i'd probably stick to the B/U. All things considered though, i've been doing fine playing Mono-Black.
Thanks.It seems like mono black plays a much more all-in style...I think ill try it out.

[Sims]

One thing I'd like to throw out there, as I play them in my mono-b build, is Cabal Therapy. In these lists that have 4 creatures it's weak, granted, but if you can't get your hands on Seize's it's a decent option. I have a bit more support for it since I run a 2 Woodfall Primus' in my list as well as Zombie Infestation as a discard outlet (since I run more guys than most, and squee over the undead gladiators) and the Flashback has not really been a problem for me to be able to use it when I need to. Not to mention it's flat dirty to therapy, exhume a primus, flashback therapy, and still have a 5/5 on the table ready to lay the beats.

But again, my list is different than these.

[pi4meterftw]

You could always Mystical for Thoughtsieze...

Would you really search for Careful Study with Mystical in the same situation if you had 1 Show and Tell maindeck (although the argument that Show and Tell can be a dead card when drawn is offset by S&T getting around Hate. True?).



DI:
Why no Thunder Dragon in the SB? Is it because by the time you need to play it you have taken too much damage anyway?

It seems pretty arbitrary that you decided a pro and a con of show and tell just cancel out. Obviously it matters if the pro causes more winning than the con causes losing. The point Matt is making is that careful study is not terrible when you don't happen to have a win, and is great when you do. Show and tell is terrible when you have nothing, and then great when you do. What are the relative magnitudes of these "terribles, greats, not terrible etc.?"

I mean you can do a computation to be exact, or you can test, which will typically converge to the "right result."

Also, if you're just counting pros and cons, you should note that S&T might put your opponent's crap into play. This matters against every deck, but it matters especially against dredge, reanimator, NO progenitus.

[arebennian]

It seems pretty arbitrary that you decided a pro and a con of show and tell just cancel out. Obviously it matters if the pro causes more winning than the con causes losing. The point Matt is making is that careful study is not terrible when you don't happen to have a win, and is great when you do. Show and tell is terrible when you have nothing, and then great when you do. What are the relative magnitudes of these "terribles, greats, not terrible etc.?"

I mean you can do a computation to be exact, or you can test, which will typically converge to the "right result."


I didn't intend to arbitrarily decide that the Pro outweighed the Con (thus the question mark), although I can understand why you would read it as such. By definition the word 'offset' doesn't strictly mean 'cancel out', it is closer to 'compensate' or 'counteract'; words which do not imply that the negative is totally erased.

As such my statement provided a negative of S&T (primarily so that the responder wouldn't quickly offer the point as an answer without elaborating) and a positive (which I personally see as being very strong in games 2&3) with the intention of garnering a clearer critique of the choice rather than just 'not nearly enough to justify a card like Show and Tell'.

It was simply a quick way of asking that if he were to Wish for Careful Study were it REALLY better than S&T if you included it as a singleton to search for when needed and as such, would rarely draw it.

It was not my suggestion that the benefits of S&T strictly outweighed it's own negatives and that of Careful Study.

[practical joke]

For the first time in months I didn't fare to well in a legacy tournament.
I ended up 9th out of 24. (3-3), which is not quite to my liking.
what took me down?

counterbalance (2-0), went quite well.
merfolk U/g (2-1)
merfolk (1-2)
Mono-red burn with ensnaring bridge (2-0)
merfolk (1-2)
ichorid (1-2) , I can blame this loss on myself due to mistakes.

I lost most of the matches to my own deck. It's normally very consistent, the deck prove to be that with regular turns and drops ( turn 1-4 with counterwars) the first 2 rounds, after the first match in the 3rd round, my deck start hampering badly, lots of mulligans to be made ( 10 that day) and still couldn't find a single piece of speed also I could hardly find the combo. now it can happen offcourse, but besides that I also had struggles against merfolk ( topdeck, why do they topdeck) besides their topdeck luck, the match-up must be improved.

I've been checking at my current sideboard and it has lots of room for improval.

atm it's like this

there is not touching in these SB cards.

4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 show and tell

this is doubtfull

2 echoing truth ( does help a lot, but I don't think I really need it)
1 infest ( all nice and stuff, but it gets countered vs merfolk anyways, and goblins should be a decent match-up already)
2 engineered explosives ( these are quite good, but can possibly be changed)
1 gilded drake. ( I love this card, it can surprise the mirror, ichorid, dreadstill and dark depths)


now what I need for the merfolk match-up. Either an artifact/enchantment that stops their speed.
sickening dreams will get countered against that deck, so it's not worth dropping your hand.
I've been thinking about singletarget removal. ( the zendikar one black mana instant that gives -2/-2) it's cheap, quick and will take down either their lords or cursecatcher.
won't do much good against many other decks, but you never need it there. Any suggestions?

- powder keg could be a nice addition.

[ktkenshinx]

practical joke: It took a lot of searching, but here is the decklist I think you played at the event. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems right. All of my comments will follow from this decklist itself.



Lands: 16
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 island
4 verdant catacomb

Artifacts: 4
4 lotus petal

Sorceries/Instants: 33
4 exhume
4 reanimate
1 intuition
1 show and tell
4 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 entomb
4 force of will
3 Mystical Tutor

Creautres: 8
2 iona, shield of emeria
2 inkwell leviathan
1 angel of despair
1 akroma angel of wrath
1 empyrial archangel

Sideboard: 15
3 krosan grip
4 extirpate
1 infest
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 Show and Tell
2 engineered explosives
2 echoing truth
1 gilded drake.

Here are my observations.
1. No Maindeck Sphinx
For me this is a serious problem in the Merfolk matchup. Iona does not necessarily stop Merfolk on its own, as they can keep popping guys into play using Vials, and they can keep hammering you for 6+ a turn due to Islandwalk. Empyrial Archangel, in my own experience, actually tends to die due to massive damage within a few turns of her hitting the battlefield.
Sphinx, on the other hand, is a far better choice. Lifelink is invaluable in outracing Merfolk, especially when attached to the Sphinx's imposing 6 power body. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that Sphinx is the only creature in Reanimator's arsenal that can outrace Merfolk. Why? Not only does it put the opponent on a 3-4 turn clock (3 if they used FoW excessively), but it prolongs your own life span by many times that number. No other creature does this in the Merfolk matchup. Inkwell might beat for one more, but it doesn't help you survive the onslaught of fish. Iona might shut down Merfolk's spellcasting abilities, but it does nothing to slow the clock, especially if they already have a Vial in play.
To conclude, you should definitely include one Sphinx in the maindeck. It is critical in outracing Merfolk (and to a lesser extent, Zoo).

2. Where is Daze?
Perhaps this is a play style choice, but I find that Daze is invaluable in EVERY matchup, not just Merfolk. Having just 3 of them gives you a powerful edge against any opponent that you can come across, especially Merfolk. If you are on the play, a timely Daze can either stop a Vial from coming into play, stop a FoW from resolving without the loss of extra cards, or force the Merfolk player to dump a FoW to protect one of their own cards. In any of those scenarios, you are being greatly benefited.
Some have argued that Spell Pierce is a better option in this slot, and while it can be in some scenarios, most of the time I find that Daze is a superior option. Why? Daze is free. Reanimator needs a fast clock to be most effective. If you have to leave one mana open to Pierce, then you are losing a turn of business. Daze lets you freely Entomb at EoT on turn 1 with far less worry of losing the spell, especially if your opponent is tapped out.

3. Blazing Archon
An excellent tool against Merfolk. Once Archon hits play, the Merfolk player has to find their Echoing Truth in order to do anything. Now, let us say that you maindeck one copy of the Archon (is this a good idea? Maybe not, but let us just speculate). Not all Merfolk decks run Echoing Truth in the maindeck. A quick check on deckcheck and SCG revealed that only a little more than half of the decks even have the card maindecked. When they do have it, they have only 2 copies. That means that in game 1, your opponent must either rely on drawing 1 of 2 cards to win (if they included Truth), or face the fact that they cannot win at all (if they do not have it). This gives you a giant advantage going into games 2 and 3.

4. The Llawan Question
Some have postulated that Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a good counter to Merfolk. After all, it acts as a mini Iona and a one sided Evacuation in your favor. It's cheap enough to even be hardcasted if needed and it pitches to FoW.
The problem is, with the exception of the fact that it can be hardcasted (which I will discuss shortly), Llawan is not a good card for Reanimator. If you Entomb/Study and Reanimate/Exhume it into play, you have essentially used 2 of your important business spells to get a creature into play that does not help you win. Rather, it prevents you from losing. Llawan does not put the Merfolk player on any serious clock; chances are she will get one swing in before the opponent has a blocker and a Lord in play ready to hold the line, courtesy of Vial. Unlike Sphinx or Archon, both of which beat for serious damage and prevent you from losing, Llawan only keeps you alive. Sadly, she does not even do this well, owing to the presence of Aether Vial.
The only advantage of Llawan is that she can be hardcast, and thus does not need to waste reanimation spells. The problem here is, I would rather spend my turns summoning and protecting Reanimated badasses than bringing this prissy fishy into play. Iona does not stop Merfolk on her own, and SHE at least puts the player on a 4 turn clock. Llawan adds one more effect (returning all creatures), but does nothing to stop FoW or Echoing Truth. She also cannot beat. This makes her a poor choice for the deck.

5. Engineered Explosives
Three words: Chalice of the Void. Whenever I play Stax, unless I get a FoW, they invariably drop Chalice at 1 on turn 1 or 2. That shuts down every important card in the deck except Show and Tell, Force of Will, Echoing Truth, and Krosan Grip (none of which you can find on command, because you lose Brainstorm, Study, and Tutor). If nothing else, this slow you down for at least 3 or 4 turns. When coupled with Trinisiphere or Stacks, it dooms you.
Explosives solves this problem basically for free. It also solves Crypt, Relic, and Vial. Indeed it is so good that I recommend increasing its count to 3 in your sideboard; it just gives you so much power against these dangerous cards.

The trick with merfolk is to put them on a clock while simultaneously prolonging your own life. Any creature that does this is good (Blazing Archon, Sphinx of the Steel Wind). Any creature that does one but not the other is going to be ineffective.
As to Infest, your solutions for Merfolk are going to be reanimation based (Archon/Sphinx), not spell based; as you said, the latter is too easily countered and does not actually facilitate victory. It just stops you from losing. That is not enough in the matchup. Bogardan Hellkite is a decent option here, especially if the opponent only has 1 Lord in play; allocate 2 damage to the lord and 1 damage to every other Merfolk. When Lord dies, all the others will follow. 4 for 1 deal. Bogardan becomes worse, however, when the opponent has redundant +1/+1 bonuses, but he can still take out 2 lords (3 damage to one, 2 to the other, both die). This is often all you need to give you an edge, especially when you kill a Lord of Atlantis this way.

-ktkenshinx-

[arebennian]

That decklist is a bit dated now. Some of your points will still stand, but PJ plays a build with Daze in it now and without Intuition main. At any rate, I am sure he appreciates the different view.

[practical joke]

that's a very old list.

Now why I do not choose sphinx MB, zoo and agro-loam are already good match-ups. Against merfolk, akroma, iona or even inkwell can do enough. A high clock and they really need the lord of atlantis to even withstand that power.

I'm concerned after Sideboarding, offcourse game 1 I can win, akroma, iona even inkwell can make it all happen fast enough.
It's not that I cannot win from merfolk, but it's by far the worst match-up. I'm looking for answers in SB to make it much better.Reanimation targets aren't what you need, you need direct answers.

Blazing archon ( waiting for bounce, sower or a counter-war you won't win fast.)
Llawan (it bounces them, you need pithing needles with her to make it work)
EE ( a very good card, but last time I got serious beatins with , muta, curse, lord, reejery) that's 0,1,2,3 mana costs...not helping a lot. Powder keg isn't solving this, but it can take out the one that must die as well ( can grow fast enough to take down the cursecatcher or the lord)

After sideboarding you can expect the following problems from merfolk
( 2-3 gy hate artifacts)
(2-4 bounce or sowers)
(0-4 spell pierce)
(0-3 back 2 basics)
combined with their FoW, cursecatchers, dazes and wastelands you are in for a whole world of pain, since they really hit you hard. I do board in the sphinx, but it's very very risky. You don't want a sower taking it away from you.

I now play the following list

8 fetch
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

4 lotus petal

4 FoW
4 daze
3 mystical tutor
1 show and tell
1 echoing truth
3 careful study
4 thoughtseize
4 exhume
4 reanimate
4 entomb
4 brainstorm

2 iona
1 inkwell
1 empyrial
1 akroma

SB

2 EE
3 Krosan Grip
2 echoing truth
1 infest
1 sphinx
4 extirpate
1 show and tell
1 gilded drake

half of these can be replaced easily.

what my current SB options are

- infest
- gilded drake
-2 echoing truth

+ 4 disfigure

////

- infest
- 2 echoing truth
-gilded drake
- EE

+2 badlands
+4 blasts

////

- infest
- EE

+3 powder keg

[Oxmo39]

If you want to splash red, go for Firespout.
It can wash the table out and is also useful againt every aggro deck (gobs & zoo).

But Thunder Dragon can also seal the deal even better :
- avoiding the red splash and wasting 5 or 6 slots in SB...
- gives you a 5/5 flying body

The dragon seems (on paper) the best choice to beat merfolks.

I've also added a Blazing Archon MD since my meta became very aggro (dredge is massively back).
As ktkenshinx mentionned, Archon will win you game 1 almost every time vs aggro.
For games 2 & 3, if thunder dragon get sworded or blasted, it would have accomplished his job anyway.You will then have time to reanimate a second beast..

[practical joke]

the most concernable problem is that I meet merfolk decks that play about 11 low-costed counter-effects. ( daze, cursecatcher, spellpierce and even force)
There's no way, I can get a firespout through. If I could, then I would have no doubt in putting firespouts or pyroclasm in the deck.

I think going for single target removal and only taking out their lords is a huge step forward. takes out their islandwalk speed, some buffs and with that empyrial could go all the way again.

[ktkenshinx]

I think going for single target removal and only taking out their lords is a huge step forward. takes out their islandwalk speed, some buffs and with that empyrial could go all the way again.
The problem with Disfigure is it does not always take care of the Lord. Merfolk plays with seriously redundant +1/+1 enhancements. If just one more Lord is in play, then Atlantis is going to be out of Disfigure range.
I have been testing Snuff Out with excellent Merfolk results. Intelligent opponents make sure at least one lord is in play before playing Atlantis himself, in order to take him out of danger range. Snuff Out does not care and takes care of the Lord anyway. The 4 life loss is a small price to pay for guaranteed removal of Atlantis. If you have an Empyrial in play, then the 4 life loss won't even matter; sure your life total goes down, but with a blocking Angel out, it is unlikely that your opponent will be able to smash through his 8 toughness.
Finally, the difference between 1 CC and 0 CC is giant. These are all strong reasons to play Snuff Out over Disfigure (or other similar 1 CC removal spells).

-ktkenshinx-

[practical joke]

I think you make a good point for snuff out,

It's a risky card to use in a reanimater deck, but if the lord stays, you'll be dead anyways.

I'll take it into serious consideration and add it to my sideboard testing list.

[Iranon]

Am I missing something or is Inkwell terrible compared to Iona?

Given the size of our creatures, I don't expect my opponent to have relevant removal in more than one colour so Shroud seems unnecessary. It also doesn't help against edict effects.

I'd rather have one more creature that shuts down entire decks.

[whienot]

You've obviously never played against decks with StP and Sower. If you never expect to see them, then great. Those types of decks are on the decline with the omnipresence of zoo.

My only loss to Counterbalance in a tournament setting was against a version packing Swords, Sowers, and Maelstrom Pulse. Iona won't get there against that much multicolor removal, where Inkwell will.

[Iranon]

I have played decks with StP and Sower myself but never encountered them... I actually thought about exactly that combination when I posted my comment but figured this wouldn't be nearly as common as sacrifice effects EDIT: or mass removal.
Maelstrom in addition does sound harsh on Iona.

[konsultant]

Am I missing something or is Inkwell terrible compared to Iona?

Given the size of our creatures, I don't expect my opponent to have relevant removal in more than one colour so Shroud seems unnecessary. It also doesn't help against edict effects.

I'd rather have one more creature that shuts down entire decks.

The 43 land style decks are becoming very popular of late, Iona does nothing about maze of ith. Personally I very rarely get Inkwell and side him out very regularly but he is a much needed card unfortunatly. Besides if you open the turn one animate Inkwell is still your best choice when you don't know what your opponent is playing. Outside of those two situations Inkwell seems to get pitched to Force more than he comes into play for me atleast.

[ktkenshinx]

The 43 land style decks are becoming very popular of late, Iona does nothing about maze of ith. Personally I very rarely get Inkwell and side him out very regularly but he is a much needed card unfortunatly. Besides if you open the turn one animate Inkwell is still your best choice when you don't know what your opponent is playing. Outside of those two situations Inkwell seems to get pitched to Force more than he comes into play for me atleast.
I agree that Inkwell is the best bet in the Lands matchup. But I also really like him in the Zoo matchup.
For one, Iona MUST name White when she comes out. Otherwise she tends to get blown away by Swords or Path within 1-2 turns. Even if you are willing to risk it, bringing Iona out on turn 1 tends to put you down to 11 life. If Iona gets exiled, that leaves you in a horrible spot. Even if Swords brings your life back up, you still are down 3 cards.
For the same reason, you have to get something with Shroud. Anything without Shroud is going to get exiled as well, or at least, I am unwilling to risk a 2 card and potentially 7+ life investment on something without Shroud. Sphinx rocks in the matchup, if you have some countermagic to guard against Swords. But on turn 1 or 2, you might not, and you need to act quick with your reanimation.
So that leaves Empyrial or Inkwell. The problem with Empyrial is that a) she dies and b) she can't kill fast enough. If you leave her on defense, assume that the opponent only has a Steppe Lynx and a Nacatl in play. That means Empyrial takes 7 damage from one attack. Add in a single burn spell fired at you, or another creature, or a Lavamancer, etc. and Empyrial is gone. In a turn. That is just not worth it to me. If she attacks, she just can't outrace the opponent.
Inkwell can. He blocks the first turn he hits play, and then he wins 3 turns later. Assuming you can counter just one critical creature or spell in that period, the game should be over in your favor.

So Inkwell is powerful against Zoo as well as Lands, at least for me.

-ktkenshinx-

[practical joke]

If you already have taht single counter ready, zoo can't do anything about the empyrial, they cannot continuesly play burn + fetch etc.

but I won't choose inkwell fast against zoo, ( depends on naya or domain)

iona (white) or iona ( red, with counterback-up) will seal the deal easily,
also the mainboard sphinx or akroma can also seal the deal very very fast against zoo.

against 43. land or any other land decks.
Get something with shroud, the opponent will be dead soon :)

[raptorcardz]

Can we get a primer for this deck? I'm interested in playtesting it as I am bored with dreadstill. What are good/bad matchups? Is merfolk beatable? Also is the counterspell package with FoW better than cabal therapy and a non-counter approach?

[Savo]

Have you considered sundering titan? seems a good option, expecially in a deck playing daze...

[practical joke]

Can we get a primer for this deck? I'm interested in playtesting it as I am bored with dreadstill. What are good/bad matchups? Is merfolk beatable? Also is the counterspell package with FoW better than cabal therapy and a non-counter approach?

I play the following list this is more B/U, while there is also a decent B/u deck ( much less blue influence in the deck)

( won dutch legacy nationals with a near similar list as the one below 138 attendees)

8 fetch to black ( 4 delta, 4 random)
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

4 lotus petal ( you could play ritual here)

4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 entomb
4 thoughtseize
4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
3 mystical tutor
3 careful study
1 show and tell
1 echoing truth

2 iona, shield of emeria
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empyrial archangel

SB///

4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
1 show and tell
1 echoing truth
4 disfigure ( still in testing, could become a snuff out)
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 gilded drake


My MU's

very good: aggro-loam, mono-color decks ( with the exception of merfolk/goblins), 43.land, staxx, landstill ( W/U, with b, it's more to decent/good), zoo ( both domain and naya)

decent ( if you think clearly, you should be able to win these most of the times): counterbalance, goblins, eva green, Team america, the rock, dreadstill, pikula, death and taxes

neutral: ichorid/dredge variants ( it requires a lot of thinking and an aggressive start, I won/lost about as many matches I played, I lost due to thinking errors combined with alcohol and lack of sleep)
-tempo *****

bad bad bad: merfolk, they have about everything reanimate hates. quick aggro, standstill, lot of counters and gy hate in sideboard. ( and unblockable)
still trying to find the perfect answer, think disfigure or snuff out will be doing a nice lot, still, the one deck you'd rather not face.


About the other deck that plays a therapy list plays a lot different, higher ammount of reanimate spells, more creatures, and putrid imps. Those are different match-ups, now since I haven't played that version in a while, I'm not really sure how some match-ups are.


@savo : yes it's considered, but not very good since it probably take down at least 1 land, and with the low ammount of landdrops in this deck, it's a risk not take. It will probably die soon enough, leaving most opponents with a decent option to find a new land and me without any land. A Risk I'm not willing to take.

[Savo]

@savo : yes it's considered, but not very good since it probably take down at least 1 land, and with the low ammount of landdrops in this deck, it's a risk not take. It will probably die soon enough, leaving most opponents with a decent option to find a new land and me without any land. A Risk I'm not willing to take.

Petradon has a similar effect and less risks. Not saying that it should be played:rolleyes:

[Cacks]

I hope that this isn't an entirely lame question (apologies if it is!) but has anyone tried the old Benzo-style combination of zombie infestation + squee/krovikan horrors (fetched with intuition or buried alive, if you play the card)?

Alternatively contaminate + nether spirit?

It may be that the casting costs are too high (for the incredibly light mana base the deck seems, albeit obviously successfully, to run) or the impact too low, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had any experience with these other avenues of attack.

[Vacrix]

How is everyone feeling about the DnT matchup?
I thought it would be pretty good because DnT is really slow and a fast clock should avoid their whole board control problem. My opponent yesterday seemed to play around everything but Leviathan.

I've been running into vials despite Iona, swords, o-ring and mangara on non-shroud dudes, MoM + blockers that fly, and flickerwisp targeting Iona...and main deck grunts... Maybe I was just getting bad hands but the matchups seems difficult, not so much preboard but post board he gets more grave hate. It seems that Inkwell Leviathan is the only creature I could safely go for because any non-shroud guy was just o-ringed or swords, and if my opponent had vial, Iona kept running into mother of runes + serra avenger or flickerwisp, and all the non-trample guys would have run into the same problem.

Has anyone else run into similar problems?

[whienot]

I can't say I have had the pleasure, or displeasure of testing that match-up. It appears to be another deck where Disfigure/Snuff Out, etc would shine.

Currently, I have Massacre in the board, since the the Goblins and Merfolk in my meta tend to splash white.

[practical joke]

I haven't met anyone here that plays DnT. someone played a W/G stompy and that's as close as it got.

just get rid of the vial and the match-up has no challenge.
( bounce it back or something)
they have no speed whatsoever.
so if you can only win with inkwell leviathan (trample ftw), it should be no problem at all right. It's big, it's fat and a huge problem.

our goblins only splash for black, not for white. Our merfolk are still playing mono-color so they can play muta's,wastelands and back2basics.

DnT should only be a tough match-up if they have a vial :)
if they have, take your time, bounce it, get your inkwell or iona. counter the vial and you are set :)

[Folkien]

How is everyone feeling about the DnT matchup?
I thought it would be pretty good because DnT is really slow and a fast clock should avoid their whole board control problem. My opponent yesterday seemed to play around everything but Leviathan.

I've been running into vials despite Iona, swords, o-ring and mangara on non-shroud dudes, MoM + blockers that fly, and flickerwisp targeting Iona...and main deck grunts... Maybe I was just getting bad hands but the matchups seems difficult, not so much preboard but post board he gets more grave hate. It seems that Inkwell Leviathan is the only creature I could safely go for because any non-shroud guy was just o-ringed or swords, and if my opponent had vial, Iona kept running into mother of runes + serra avenger or flickerwisp, and all the non-trample guys would have run into the same problem.

Has anyone else run into similar problems?

Iona is a bad reanimation due to karakas ¬¬! ( I hate that land )
I got the same problems agains DnT, but it has nothing to do against a turn 1 or 2 leviathan plus an empyrial archangel is gg. But it's always a thoug match.

[whienot]

Iona is a bad reanimation due to karakas

Oh Man!! I forgot all about that card. Yeah, Iona is completely unreliable here. I suppose you could bring in Pithing Needle (if you play them). DnT definately has enough targets. But, I'm pretty sure Shroud + Bounce/Removal is better.

Edit:
has anyone tried the old Benzo-style combination of zombie infestation + squee/krovikan horrors

At one point I tried to build a green/black version that used Zombie Infestation fueled by Life from the Loam. It seemed good in theory, having waste-lock backed up with huge dudes (with dredge filling the grave), but the deck lacked focus.

[Cacks]

[QUOTE=At one point I tried to build a green/black version that used Zombie Infestation fueled by Life from the Loam. It seemed good in theory, having waste-lock backed up with huge dudes (with dredge filling the grave), but the deck lacked focus.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Whienot: that was exactly what I had in mind - you have saved me much testing!

[arebennian]

3 more Top 2 placings in the last 2 months for Reanimator at 60+ people events, the one in November involving over 100+ people.

GPT Madrid 2010 - Praha / Czech Republic
Source: CMUS.cz
Date: 09. Jan 2010
Place: 2nd
Participants: 59
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31488


LOTACY 02/01/2010
Date: 02. Jan 2010
Place: 1st
Participants: 58
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31223


Open Nederlands Kampioenschap Legacy 2009
Source: BeNeLegacy
Date: 15. Nov 2009
Place: 1st
Participants: 136
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31215


*All playing Careful Study
*1 Intuition played in creature heavy build
*No Buried Alive builds
*Only one Playing Krosan Grip (Chain of Vapour and Pithing Needle over grip in one)
*Each playing Show and Tell Main or Side
*Gutteral Response looks like tech in 136 person Tournie

[practical joke]

I had my share of fun with the response :P

In the end it hardly worked, it's too situational that it's not worth it.( think I only casted it once in the finals, and maybe a second time during the day.)

By now I stopped playing studies since I dropped my creature count.
I play in a normally heavy blue meta( lots of merfolk, counterbalance, rock ( yes not so blue, but a buttloads of hate and combo)

I couldn't afford the randomness of creatures I picked up with the studies.
the deck at the 136 tourney wouldn't lost horribly to counterbalance.
playing a more control shell nowadays.


Nice results after all. I wonder if I can get the deck to shine a bit at GP madrid.

[whienot]

Novablast Wurm :3::g::g::w::w:

Creature - Wurm
Whenever Novablast Wurm attacks, destroy all other creatures.
#319/145 7/7

A turn slower than Thunder Dragon, but it will wipe out ALL other creatures every turn.

[moseby]

I am currious how people are sideboarding

I run this as my side, with sphinx main. My list is virtually identical to Pratical's.
2 EE
3 Krosan Grip
2 echoing truth
1 Blazing Archon
2 extirpate
1 show and tell
4 leyline of the void

I normally pull 3-4 of the petals a study and/or a brainstorm for the EE and grips, obviously it depends on the deck being played against.

[AngryTroll]

Novablast Wurm :3::g::g::w::w:

Creature - Wurm
Whenever Novablast Wurm attacks, destroy all other creatures.
#319/145 7/7

A turn slower than Thunder Dragon, but it will wipe out ALL other creatures every turn.

Thunder Dragon kills most stuff when you reanimate it, even if your opponents Swords the Dragon. The Wurm is cool, but much riskier if you really need to clear the board.

[practical joke]

I am currious how people are sideboarding

I run this as my side, with sphinx main. My list is virtually identical to Pratical's.
2 EE
3 Krosan Grip
2 echoing truth
1 Blazing Archon
2 extirpate
1 show and tell
4 leyline of the void

I normally pull 3-4 of the petals a study and/or a brainstorm for the EE and grips, obviously it depends on the deck being played against.

I even board out exhume against some match-ups.
I'm still continuesly changing my SB

atm it's like this

3 krosan grip
4 extirpate
4 snuff out
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 extract ( when you take out no-pro or a tendrils, you are good to go)
1 perish ( in case of no-pro emergency or clear bants beasties)
1 echoing truth


this means, no more gilded drake, less bounce, no more EE, no more second show and tell.

About the removal of show and tell sideboard ( I still have 1 mainboard), I hardly used it. In my meta the gy removal isn't that huge. at least nothing you cannot handle with 1 show and tell, 3 krosan grip or 2 echoing truth.

[arebennian]

Talk to me of the uses of Extripicate.
1) When do you side them in/out.
2) What do you try to extract.
3) How do you actually play them, after a counter or after a Grip?

[practical joke]

1) anything that does nasty stuff with gy.


here are few examples

- 43.lands ( I only board in 1-2, since it's a good match-up and to stop their loam from getting a glacial chasm lock)
- aggro-loam ( again only 1-2, to make sure they do not go insane after you dropped something, show and tell is not needed here)
- ANT and it's variants ( since I play a lot of counters and disrupt. Also this is not a race, but an exhausting control match-up. you can extirpate their chants, which gave me the edge when I knew my opponent wanted to go off with protection, this way I could counter his stuff, before and after ill-gotten-gains. take out their gy when they cabal ritual, take out LED etc etc. soo many options)
- Ichorid ( take out bridge to give you some air and then or before take out the ichorid itselt)
- The rock ( against some builds you would like to play a few, the ones I face are made to take reanimate apart, cuz they include extirpate, edicts, swords, runed halo and more unfunny stuff, then you gladly go seize, pate his edict or pate)
- Anything that might be tough to beat cuz it plays entomb,intuition or a loam-engine.
- The mirror, taking down creatures, maybe even their reanimate spell so they only have exhume left. ( considered no fun ;))


Any of the following can happen after a counter, a lethal block or a thoughtseize.

[konsultant]

Perhaps this is just in our meta but people have been pulling all the stops out against us recently, I've faced decks with md Ravenous Trap and one guy was even running 4x Faerie Macbre in the md. Faerie Macabre seems to be the strongest hate card against us that i'm seeing and people here are playing it in everything. The guy that won our last big event had 4x Faerie 1x Crypt and 1x Relic in the SB and he was playing Bant on top of it. My point was has anyone tried out City of Solitude in the SB? It deals with every single hate card except the Enchantments (Leyline and Planar Void) plus it's like a permanent chant against counters. I've had it in my sb but I have yet to use it so I was wondering if anybody else had tried it yet.

[practical joke]

You can have up to 8 answers for fearie macabre.
(4 thoughtseize, 4 show and tell)

If he plays Bant, what do you think your odds are on resolving and keeping that enchantment?
I haven't seen a single player board out their pridemages or their counters.

But I am curious if anyone has any good results with it.

[arebennian]

You can have up to 8 answers for fearie macabre.
(4 thoughtseize, 4 show and tell)

If he plays Bant, what do you think your odds are on resolving and keeping that enchantment?
I haven't seen a single player board out their pridemages or their counters.

But I am curious if anyone has any good results with it.

How does Thoughtsieze count as an answer? Can't they just discard it as an instant?

EDIT- DON'T MIND ME. I'M THE VILLAGE IDIOT! PREEMPTIVE ATTACK FTW!

[arebennian]

In a totally unrelated point, I sent a PM off to Di about the Buried Alive build the other day. He hasn't got back to me for whatever reason, so I thought I would stick the PM up here and hopefully someone from his Team could answer.



Di wrote earlier in the thread
Intuition works better than Buried Alive solely when you run a higher creature count. If you keep a low, singleton count of creatures you can't abuse it properly because you might not get the correct creature in your graveyard. I've already explained the advantages of running a build with so few reanimation targets, but in the event that you're running a higher-creature build that features multiples of important targets (Iona, shroud creatures, Sphinx of the Steel Wind) and Careful Study, then Intuition is the more optimal choice.

.

You wrote the above some time ago on the Reanimator thread.

I've constructed the deck and have been Goldfishing it against other decks. I really don't like Buried Alive much at all.

I know that you dislike the thought of Intuition because you cannot put the creature you want into the graveyard, but if you are in the situation where it indeed matters which creature ends up in the yard (and not just a beater) couldn't you just search for 3 Entomb? The chances you have drawn 2 by then aren't that great.
What matchups would this be a problem in?

You could also use
Raven's Crime
Cephalid Coliseum
Undead Gladiator
in variant Intuition piles, all of which are suboptimal as a 1 of but could outweigh the drawback of Buried Alive when you consider the benefits of Intuition.
You have three, possibly 4 mana next turn so you can play any of your reanimation spells, although it does leave you more open to Daze effects.

Also, what do you think of the builds playing Daze? The extra protection it offers seems very good, but it looks like it is at the cost of Ponder......

Have you playtested any of these plays/options? What were your conclusions?

[practical joke]

I'll be playtesting ponders instead of careful study next weekend.

Since I always draw into multiple studies. It's also tempting to play less land again. ( since I somehow start mulliganning most matches when my opening hands consists of 1 petal + 3-4land and no bs/fetch to ditch it.)

so I cut

-1 bayou
-3 careful study

+3 ponder
+1 open slot ( not sure yet what to do with it)

4th mystical seems too much, keeping a singleton study will be extremely random, but it will give the deck yet an option to play something from your hand.

I could turn it into a 9th fetch or something else that would be benefitting for this deck. but it has to be something that would be good as a singleton. ( a 6th creature perhaps)

[Folkien]

Here is a rumor from worldwake edition.
its really cool, now you can replace gutural response and is even better than spell pierce (in my humble opinion)

Dispel {U}
Instant (Common)
Counter target instant spell

[troopatroop]

Here is a rumor from worldwake edition.
its really cool, now you can replace gutural response and is even better than spell pierce (in my humble opinion)

Dispel {U}
Instant (Common)
Counter target instant spell

It counters some things all the same for sure, but 2 mana is next to impossible in the majority of situations. Consider the fact that Spell Pierce can counter many more hate cards. Crypt, Relic, and even Counterbalance can all be countered by it. In what ways is it better?

[practical joke]

In legacy spell pierce is in most situations the same as a 1mana counterspell.

I have stopped using gutturals in SB since I started playing daze mainboard.

[Rancorous Fool]

I have had great results with 4 Main deck Stifle. All hate can be dealt with by either force or Stifle +discard. Also, it can enable Woodfall Primus to be a mana denial plan. Turn 2 stifle, turn 3 Primus can be devastating. Being able to play Reanimater similar to a tempo deck creates the strategic versatility that I find relevant in a wide open Legacy metagame.

[fyrisen]

Bah nevermind totally misunderstood the card.

[Cire]

Lol i was just about to post it, either way it's the biggest power creature you can get out...

Sacrifice 3 Permenants when it comes out - 18 total worth of power on the table and even if the 9/9 is STped you still have 9 power worth of elephants
Sacrifice 2 Permenants when it comes out - 12 worth of power (the elephant your giving to your opponent is going to trade with yours) Destroy any non-creature permenant
Sacrifice 1 Permenant when it comes out - 9 worth of power delayed by one turn (1 elephant trades with one of yours, and the other one chumps BBE) Destroy 2 non-creature permenants
Sacrifice 0 permenants when it comes out - 0 worth of power (they will either chump you, or outright kill BBE) destroy 3 non-creature permenants

Personally i think the sacrifice 2 permenants (most likely lands) is the best option Imagine

1 Swamp - Entomb
2 Swamp - Thought Seize, reanimate, destroy their only land, give them a 3/3 but have a 9/9 and 2 3/3's in play!

You have rediculous power (no lands granted) but there mana development is also thrown off, since you destroyed their land and you hopefully grabed something good with thought seize

[Illissius]

Then when they Path your 9/9 you'll both have an Elephant but you'll be up two lands! From that position, victory is inevitable.

[fdiv_bug]

First off, thanks to all the guys who've been getting into some really great discussion about this archetype. I just recently decided to build it and have been having a blast playing around with it, and all the information and experience in this thread has been extremely helpful.

Second off...

Lol i was just about to post it, either way it's the biggest power creature you can get out...
What card are you guys discussing? Did I miss something?

[whienot]

What card are you guys discussing? Did I miss something?

From the salvation rumor mill:

*Big Elephant* 6gg
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~this~ comes into play, destroy three non-creature permanents.
For each permanent destroyed this way, it's controller puts a 3/3 green Elephant token onto the battlefield.
9/9

[raptorcardz]

So I played this deck in the last tournament. I unfortunately finished 5th out of 14 or so.

The beginning of the day was great going 2-0 destroying merfolk with a resolved blazing archon and killing a countertop deck with Iona on black. Then I played against merfolk again unfortunately I could not get an entomb or mystical tutor and had to mulligan to 5. I went 0-2 that match.

Game 4 the person was 0-3 so they were going to concede to me but wanted to play anyways. They played a valakut land deck that I thought was 43 land but obviously was much different. Unfortunately I had forgot to proxy Empyrial Archangel and his land kept me from dealing damage.

I had the hardest time finding the right card for the moment. When I needed a creature in the GY sometimes I wouldn't draw entomb or mystical tutor. I think the deck needs something to make it go off turn 2-3 more.

[fdiv_bug]

From the salvation rumor mill:

*Big Elephant* 6gg
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~this~ comes into play, destroy three non-creature permanents.
For each permanent destroyed this way, it's controller puts a 3/3 green Elephant token onto the battlefield.
9/9
Sexy! Thanks for cluing me in. :smile:

[moseby]

Practical,

You lowered your creature count and dropped carefull's for more dazes. What else have you brought in?
I currently run
2 iona
1 Emperial
1 Sphinx of the Steelwind
1 Inkwell
1 Akroma angel of wrath

I am seriously considering dropping Akroma as she is massive path/plow/bounce bait. I will admit she is awesome against gobs and zoo if I have counters. But she is frown town vs zoo if I dont have counters, merfolk which is admittedly a bad MU, anything else I running bounce.

I ran into a gobo's deck that sided in fortunes theif, I thought I was boned til I managed to dig up a echoing truth.

[practical joke]

Gobbo's are considered a bye nowadays. snuff out makes this happen :P
Akroma went to sideboard for me and sphinx to mainboard, only cuz merfolk is shitty active around here nowadays.
If it wouldn't then I would gladly bring akroma back MB since she's a household against so many decks. ( dark depths, eva green, goblins, aggro-loam)

I run ponder now in tests.
don't know about the results, but it allows to get the horrible topdeck mode a bit better.

dry-testing it seems fine ( just loads of 1 drops, so playing it out will become a challenge in a tournament)

I'll test it tonight and sunday with friends and at a GPT, we'll see what the results are.

I will also try 1 extract and 1 perish in SB and no additional bounce in SB.

It might be a bit risky, but it's something I have to try, because with the ponders you can dig a good ammount.



The new elephant seems good, but I don't think I'd play it mainboard. A single Swords and a tarmogoyf make a lunchbox out of your elephants.
( B/G/W rock with overkill hate for example)
or Counterbalance.

Even if you destroy their lands, they will have a big enough goyf to recover. after that, you will be lacking resources since our topdeck mode isn't that great compared to top-playing decks.

It's a little too costy in resources. You already spend a lot of resourced to a reanimated creature and now you are giving up even more, for a slight advantage that cannot beat a RWM or a goyf after you spend you resources on it. ( instant, land, sorcery for sure at that time, maybe even artifact)
even if you destroy their goyf they will gladly trade your elephant and swords your big elephant. then they only need to get rid of one elephant and you have to start all over again, but with a lot less cards to begin with and a terrible topdeck.

[konsultant]

You can have up to 8 answers for fearie macabre.
(4 thoughtseize, 4 show and tell)

If he plays Bant, what do you think your odds are on resolving and keeping that enchantment?
I haven't seen a single player board out their pridemages or their counters.

But I am curious if anyone has any good results with it.

Here is the exact situation I ran into, he had Faerie Macabre on top of his deck and Top in Play. I knew he had it because I lead with a turn one Duress and saw it and when I cast Thoughtsieze two turns later he responded with Brainstorm. I had zero outs other than letting him hit a guy in response to an animate. I am suggesting possably running City in addition to the discard and counters we already play simply because it can single handidly answer all of thier hate at once, this would allow you to focus counter magic and discard solely on thier counters and Pridemages Ignoring any yard removal they have. Yes Show and Tell is another out but against Bant it is not an ideal one.

Regarding the question to Di about Buried Alive, we are currently working on an overhaul of the deck due to the excessive hate we are seeing at events. When we have something concrete it will hopefully be posted in the top 8 thread.

[fdiv_bug]

I am suggesting possably running City in addition to the discard and counters we already play simply because it can single handidly answer all of thier hate at once, this would allow you to focus counter magic and discard solely on thier counters and Pridemages Ignoring any yard removal they have.
OK, you have my attention. To which City are you referring?

[spiderfreak]

OK, you have my attention. To which City are you referring?

City of Solitude

[fdiv_bug]

City of Solitude

That's what I suspected, but wouldn't that also make our countermagic less useful, by not being able to use it to stop whatever they tried to do to mess with our action during their own turn? I mean, City of Solitude in and of itself is a bit of a counterspell -- I'm just gonna Entomb and Reanimate whatever the heck I feel like and you can't stop me -- so I guess that drawback wouldn't much matter, and once you've got an Iona on the table on the correct color then the world is your burrito anyway.

[practical joke]

Come to Holland and you'll find a whole new world of pain concerning multicolor removal. :frown:

You have to be very careful with city of solitude, since it can work against just as bad.

I hope that someone is going to try and test it and post results with it soon enough.

At this moment I'm too busy getting my sideboard tuned without that, and for once I have problems with too few slots free.

[fdiv_bug]

I hope that someone is going to try and test it and post results with it soon enough.

Me, too! I firmly believe that just about any idea is worth testing, and always welcome testing data and thoughts for just about any card. Except One with Nothing; that card sucks. :tongue:

[fdiv_bug]

So in building and testing this deck, it looks like people typically bring in graveyard hate against us. Seems reasonable and effective, since if we can't keep our big `uns in the yard then they don't do us much good. I've been trying to find good ways around it and something that occurred to me is Gaea's Blessing -- if we Entomb it in response to them activating their Crypt or Relic, then we get the reshuffle before our now-empty graveyard gets purged. Seems like it might be too narrow and conditional, though. Against Leyline of the Void -- far, far less prevalent than the two artifacts -- we can bring in Krosan Grip pretty effectively, and just not Entomb anyone until the Leyline has been dealt with.

I was also considering Pithing Needle or Null Rod to stop the artifacts, as well as pesky other things like Wasteland with Needle. Does anyone else have any suggestions? I've seen Extirpate running around in several lists, and wondered if it served such a purpose for the Reanimator players that have been using it.

[whienot]

If you have Entomb in your hand, there's no need to Entomb a Gaea's Blessing unless you've dumped all your dudes in the yard. In which case, you've played incorrectly.

As far as Anti- Grave hate, if you play with a higher creature count you can use Show and Tell. I've had success with Pithing Needle and Spell Pierce. For Leyline I have a single Reverent Silence in the sideboard. It kills multiple Leylines and makes Enchantress a cake walk.

[fdiv_bug]

For Leyline I have a single Reverent Silence in the sideboard. It kills multiple Leylines and makes Enchantress a cake walk.

That's a really good idea, and there's a guy who plays Enchantress locally who'll start showing up to our weekly events now that football season is coming to a close. Thanks!

[Chronox]

what do you think about the new worldwake land?

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target player’s graveyard.

inmune to counterspells and inmune to duress/tseize, but stifleable and at sorcery speed. do you think it's a new menace for reanimator decks? or i'm just overreacting?

[practical joke]

overreacting.

entomb is still an instant, they can't play instant speed lands ( well one of the new cards can, but who'll ever play that?)

Enchantress was already a cakewalk unless you couldn't find a thing, but in that case, you should've taken a mulligan already.

[Chronox]

good point, but i think it would hurt some of the decks that still run a pair of buried alives. i know that most of you don't even consider it in the main deck, but depend only in entomb to put cards on the graveyard is kind of risky against extirpate or similar cards; and if you don't have it in your initial7, tutor it or trying to find it with brainstorm/ponder make you lose a couple of turns.

also, i'm trying to put together my sideboard, but i don't know if engineered explosives and chains of vapor are enough to deal with hate cards such as leyline of the void, tomord's crypt and planar void. what do you guy think? is strictly necessary to splash green to make krosan grip available?

BTW thanks for your opinions, they are really helpful as i'm kind of new to this deck, because i only played it in a casual way until a few weeks ago.

[practical joke]

Since you only need to add a single bayou, it isn't that hard to splash for krosan grip.
you always lose 1-2 turns when someone plays graveyard hate, that's what hate cards are for, but it doesn't kill the deck since it has answers.

Chain of vapors is a very good first-second turn answer but becomes a dead card when you use it after you have something in play.
(iona, archon, sphinx and akroma have no shroud)
Krosan grip or Wipe away are meant to take care of certain cards played in counterdecks ( counterbalance, SDT, vial, staxx-cards, painters servant or grindstone, dreadnaught and many more)

What slows you down doesn't kill you directly. ( B/U as I play it, is quite a control list)



The land hurts buried alive build only in a way that they lose a few creatures, but then again. It's only 2 dead cards in the deck. ( or they go EoT bounce, ritual buried alive = > reanimate)

about the same result, just needs a card more.
Most buried alive build run only 2, so it shouldn't be that bad.

The reason why I chose krosan grip is the incredible split second abbility it has, that one works wonders.

[robertoe]

Hey, played this deck at a 28 person tourney to a 3-4th place finish this weekend:

The cast:
3x Iona
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Paying mana to discard cards:
4x Entomb
3x Careful Study
4x Mystical Tutor

What's the worst that could happen:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Show and Tell

If it doesn't have force of will, i'm not interested:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm

Cool artifact, man:
4x Stifle

4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand

SB:
1x Bayou
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Thoughtseize
2x Show and Tell
1x Something I don't remember

Played CB Bant, Stax, Zoo, Tempo Thresh, 4cCB (spout, trinket, sower)

Main comments:
Stifle-Waste is very good in this deck. It tends to smooth out the inconsistency issue by giving you time to draw your combo, as well as hating the hate. Empyrial should be Inkwell #2. Careful Study is the worst card in the deck but slow-rolling it gives you a decent chance of binning a guy.

Sideboard:
Pithing Needle was mostly for vials which I didn't play against--not sure if they are necessary. I would like to have more pernicious deed, as that card answers lots of your problems preemtively (aggro decks with permanent based hate, counterbalance with permanent based hate, stax, affinity). Rav trap with Mystical Tutor seems enough versus dredge. Spell pierce should come back in over Show and Tell to street-fight against counterbalances. Life from the Loam might be a cool one-of to either entomb or mystical for now that I have wastelands. I would like Snuff Out somewhere. Thoughtseize works.

[whienot]

Report? I'd love to read how your matches went, key plays, lucksackery, etc. It's a very interesting build.

[robertoe]

Report? I'd love to read how your matches went, key plays, lucksackery, etc. It's a very interesting build.

Match 1 against Joe-Bant
Joe is awesome but I mana screw him twice with stifle-waste, beating a crypt with exhume, get crypted, entomb. Thoughtseizes and deed in, dazes out.

Match 2 against Timothy-Stax
Game 1 I force a chalice at 1 and make Iona on white who kills him. Deed in, daze out.
Game 2 I bring back Iona but he makes morphed exalted angel and races, loses with me at 1.

Match 3 against guy with Zoo
Game 1 I blind entomb for Inkwell, lose narrowly to nacatl with jitte. Deed in, careful study out.
Game 2 Deed blows his crypt and guys, Iona white gets him.
Game 3 Iona white with Force to slow him down.

Match 4 & 5 Draw with buds.

Quarters: Colin with Tempo Thrash
Game 1: Stifle-Waste keeps him distracted and I get him with Inkwell.
Game 2: I resolve entomb for Sphinx and my 3rd reanimate resolves thanks to wasteland pressure. Sphinx gets him.

Semis: Max with CB
Game 1: I get a quick Iona on white off of careful study and mystical for force in response to his CB-top. I get no blue card to pair with the force and lose to his sower later on.
Game 2: He has a turn 1 relic, a fetch I stifle and another land that I waste. He sits on 1 land for a while but I take a bit to setup protected entomb-exhume with mysticals. Here I lose focus and entomb at the wrong time, so that I can't protect my yard with stifle, and then pick the wrong target (iona over inkwell). I am annoyed when he discards sower at end of turn, but I exhume anyways and he slams sower on the table instead of baiting my stifle with relic. I stifle his sower instead, force his spell pierce, name white with iona. He draws running lands to cast another sower on my iona in time and I lose. Obv Inkwell wins there.

[Azathoth]

Hello,

I have two ideas flying in my head.

What do you think to replace some mysticals with Lim-Dul's Vault?

It´s a good idea include in the sideboard 4 Leyline of the Void ( replacing extirpate )
with 2 Helm of obedience for implement another win condition? ( With 4 Dark ritual in the main deck )

Regards!

[practical joke]

How were your mana issues with deed next to wasteland?
I know I only run a few lands, but I never was able to run deed.

1 it's quite slow and 3-mana could be quite the issue (since you'll spend you time wasting opponents), but the wasteland seems to be worth to try.
I don't like thoughtseize in the SB where I can accept playing stifle.
I'll replace my petals with wastelands next GPT and see how it works out. ( don't even bothererd getting stifles, so I'll have to fix those another time)

Inkwell is incredibly strong against CB ( especially when they do not have NO-Pro)
I'll show my results without petals + wastes ( thoughtseize main, no stifles)

Think my list will end up like this

4 wasteland
3 underground sea
1 bayou
8 fetch
1 island
1 swamp

2 iona
1 inkwell
1 empyrial
1 sphinx

4 thoughtseize
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 exhume
1 show and tell
1 echoing truth
3 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
3 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
1 careful study

SB:

3 krosan grip
4 extirpate
1 extract
1 perish
1 echoing truth
1 akroma, angel of wrath
3 snuff out
1 show and tell



Since I am already on the control tour anyways, I might as well do it this way without the speed of the lotus petals, but with the gain of wasteland.

[moseby]

I like Ponder but what do you guys think of Treasure Hunt from world wake;

U1 sorcery
"Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a nonland card, then put all cards revealed this way into your hand."

Seems like a no brainer to replace ponder, especially with our low land counts.

[Chronox]

you know, the mana curve of the reanimator deck is really low and most of the mana you spend on spells is colored.
tseize, entomb, reanimate, ponder, mystical, brainstorm, careful... all of them require 100% colored mana, and i dont know if its a good idea to run with 4 colorless lands out of 18.

btw, with low land count treasure hunt is not a good choice, because in most of the cases you are just cycling one card for another one (perhaps a creature), or if you are lucky, plus a couple of lands, all of that for 2cc. on the other hand, ponder enables you to draw any of the top 3 cards of your library or to reshuffle them if they are no good. if you just want something to thin your deck just use any card with zero cost cycle.

[fdiv_bug]

btw, with low land count treasure hunt is not a good choice, because in most of the cases you are just cycling one card for another one (perhaps a creature), or if you are lucky, plus a couple of lands, all of that for 2cc.

Yeah, Treasure Hunt was designed to be optimal in decks that run lots of land, not just a few. I'm kind of scared how good it might be in 43 Land, especially once they've got a Manabond on the table.

[moseby]

Ohh hells bells

[Chronox]

indeed, in 43 lands its like a draw everything you can.

what do you think about chain of vapor vs echoing truth? wich one is better to side?

[arebennian]

I'm still interested for someone to discredit
Lim-Dul's Vault. I'm sure it has been discussed on this thread before, but I can't use the search function.

<<EDIT>> How do you put tags around a card so it can be viewed without having to use a gather of some sort?

[dorsch]

1. The search funktion got somehow messed up during the recent forum update.
2. Brainstorm[/cards*] If you delete the * it will look like [cards]Brainstorm

[Chronox]

limdul's vault dont let you draw, and at 2cc and X lives you better tutor something up with mystical.
also IMHO you have enough sorting with brainstorms and ponder.
i would rather play peer through depths than lim dul, but i prefer brainstorm/mystical

[arebennian]

I'd see it as a replacement for ponder as it is at instand speed.

[practical joke]

Ponder is lovely with low land counts :)
it's near amazing, but I can be able to consider the vault,

Last night I had some practise rounds, and the lotus petal was shining again,
Not even considering wasteland + stifle ever again.

Mystical searches for every card in your deck except mana sources and the 5 fat guys, no way lim-duls vault can compete to that.
Running 1-2 in the heavy B/U version can't do much harm I guess, ( you can rely more in a heavy Show and tell sideboard then)

but it's still card-disadvantage which this deck runs enough of already.

[whienot]

Mystical searches for every card in your deck except mana sources and the 5 fat guys, no way lim-duls vault can compete to that.


This. Vault's a turn slower and will (generally) be just as effective as Mystical. Vault does set up multiple draws. But, it looks like you are talking about running Mystical + Vault, for a super tutor build of the deck. Seems interesting, but Brainstorm/Ponder are just as effective with how redundant this deck is.

[Chronox]

so... lotus petal > dark ritual?
i know lotus petal gives you U or G mana also, but dark ritual gives you the chance to make turn1 combo, or to play buried alive without problems.

i'm still concerned about the sideboard, and if chains of vapor + engineered explosives is enough.

also, i want to hear the experience of the player of the no buried alive decklist, because i can't understand how can you run with only 4 entombs as only mechanism to put fatties on the graveyard, and how do you deal with extirpate, cranial extraction, and such.