[Deck] Reanimator

[Savo]

also, i want to hear the experience of the player of the no buried alive decklist, because i can't understand how can you run with only 4 entombs as only mechanism to put fatties on the graveyard, and how do you deal with extirpate, cranial extraction, and such.

First and fast answer: Show and tell.
Cranial is not played in the format. Extirpate kills buried alive creatures too.

[AngryTroll]

Extirpate kills buried alive creatures too.

Only if you decide to get three of the same creature.

[Chronox]

I meant what if they extirpate/cranial extract/etc your entomb. also, i suppose you guys run with 4 or 5 creatures and 1 main show and tell. i dont know how that can deal with the problem. obviously if only 4 send to graveyard cards are enough, then it wont be a problem, but are you sure 4 is enough?

[practical joke]

Yes it is,

I play 11 draw/search effects to find an entomb ( 3 mystical, 4 brainstorm, 3 ponder, 1 careful study)
you play a few creatures, because you will certainly go off with entomb into something.

How to beat leyline, easy. Bounce or destroy ( nature's claim,chain of vapors,krosan grip, echoing truth), or show and tell
If you play against a deck that has extirpates, get thoughtseizes ready or a show and tell. ( if you are in an area with lots of extirpates, you''ll board in the 1-2 creatures you have and go for a 4-off show and tell action)

Or you can trick them into exhume, entomb, random creature in gy.

extirpate is the hardest to fight hate card around, it needs some adaption and learning by failure to know how to deal with this perfectly. ( you'll have to try and read his options)

[Azathoth]

Another gp trial lost... two times down with faeries; anyone can give any council about How to play agains faeries?
Maybe my error is that I have only one removal in the deck ( in the sideboard )... and in a war of counters a 1/1 creature can kill you.

It´s working fine snuff out?

[damionblackgear]

Is the Problem with Fae that you're not reanimating anything or that you're trying to get Iona? Archangel is much better vs them. And you can normally force them to block before they can deal enough damage to kill (which you care about?) her.

[fdiv_bug]

Archangel is much better vs them.

Not ever having actually played the match, I'd have to say that sounds pretty correct. I'd also expect that Inkwell Leviathan would be pretty decent for taking some of the value out of Bitterblossom tokens.

[Rancorous Fool]

So, this is gonna sound a little crazy, but I have cut to 2 force of will.


I know blasphemy. But, my meta is heavily tempo oriented. I need 2-3 disruptors to win the game. Force just eats too many cards to make that effective. Instead, my 4x thoughtseize, 4x daze, 4x stifle 2x FOW tend to to a better job in defending my reanimation. Post board, I always bring in 1 show and tell, though I have very rarely seen leyline's boarded. More commonly: faerie macabre, T: crypt, relic of progenitus, and the odd extirpate/ravenous trap. 2 Mystical tutor 2 intuition 3 dark ritual has been working well. I may consider cutting dark ritual for 2x force to to try to fit it in.

2x Force seems to bizarre. Beyond my normal comprehension. I played a 3x of once and hated it. I will continue testing, and will post next time i win duals/power with this deck.

So far, I have been scared to play it for fear of wasting an entry fee on an under-tested deck.

[BreathWeapon]

Another gp trial lost... two times down with faeries; anyone can give any council about How to play agains faeries?
Maybe my error is that I have only one removal in the deck ( in the sideboard )... and in a war of counters a 1/1 creature can kill you.

It´s working fine snuff out?

Splash Red for Burning Wish, besides it being the 2nd best tutor in the deck (behind Entomb), grabbing Sickening Dreams wipes their board while positioning your threat. It's way better than Mystical Tutor, in my experience.

[Chronox]

burning wish is not a good option if you consider that you cant play with more than 4 copies of each card in the main+side. so you cant bring exhume, reanimate, entomb without removing one from the main. also if you just want to bring sickening (assuming you run with a high enough creature count) is better to put it directly in the main.

also, splashing red in addition to the green splash most of the people do for the sake of being able to use krosan grip is too much IMHO.

[fdiv_bug]

also, splashing red in addition to the green splash most of the people do for the sake of being able to use krosan grip is too much IMHO.

I agree. Green gives us better hate-removal options, and the vast majority of lists already use Mystical Tutor to dig up the sorcery -- or instant, should it prove necessary -- we need for whatever situation. I'd rather use as many slots as possible for Mystical Tutor and Brainstorm, and not have to worry about making room for Burning Wish at all.

[practical joke]

I'll be trying this weekend out with a new SB plan

Nature's claim, I will wonder if it will prove to be a treat or if it's a good thing.


You want 4 force, if your opponent is playing with fearie macabre's you will have to enter the long game and trick him. ( or simply use show and tell, It's in there for some reason)

[BreathWeapon]

burning wish is not a good option if you consider that you cant play with more than 4 copies of each card in the main+side. so you cant bring exhume, reanimate, entomb without removing one from the main. also if you just want to bring sickening (assuming you run with a high enough creature count) is better to put it directly in the main.

also, splashing red in addition to the green splash most of the people do for the sake of being able to use krosan grip is too much IMHO.

Removing 1 Exhume, when you have 3 Exhume and 4 Reanimate left, isn't that significant and Entomb is an instant :confused: Also, you're not considering Burning Wish, the card tutors for disruption, removal, Buried Alive, Show and Tell, Last Rites, Sickening Dreams etc. making it the most flexible and dynamic tutor in the deck. Just brute force Burning Wish -> Show and Tell completely side steps otherwise devastating hate like those damn Faeries.

The deck really doesn't have issues with 5c IMO, the new fetches, City of Brass, SBing lands pretty much deals with it nicely.

[practical joke]

city of brass.....

that's about the worst land you could choose.

[BreathWeapon]

city of brass.....

that's about the worst land you could choose.

Don't run Thought Seize and over rely on Reanimate, but whatever, if you don't want to run Burning Wish then don't run it - your loss.

[practical joke]

It seems horribly slow, since it's no instant, costs 2, offcolour even. ( I think badlands would be an easier splash than using non-fetchable lands like city, it's not pitchable to FoW)
I would like to see a complete decklist before I make a definate statement.

[troopatroop]

Don't run Thought Seize and over rely on Reanimate, but whatever, if you don't want to run Burning Wish then don't run it - your loss.

If you could post a decklist that'd be helpful. I actually like the idea of playing Red. Firespout is great.

[Chronox]

entomb is an instant oops, my mistake. but even if that's the case, i still consider burning wish inefficient in this deck. as it's a sorcery with 2cc, i don't think is better than mystical. also, most of the time you won't have enough mana to play it correctly.

[fdiv_bug]

as it's a sorcery with 2cc, i don't think is better than mystical. also, most of the time you won't have enough mana to play it correctly.
I concur. I'd almost always rather cast Mystical Tutor at the end of their turn and then just go about my business during mine than deal with having to splash red and keep some reanimation spells in the sideboard.

[raptorcardz]

With red you can also use gamble. I'm not sure if that was mentioned.

[Azathoth]

I think that gamble don´t works with reanimator;

Thanks Damion, Empyrial Archangel works perfect against faeries.
If the red is a color to put into this deck then "Red elemental blast" is a awesome card to put into the SB ( merfolks and faeries is the worst pairing )

[whienot]

Unless you've been touched by the hand of a Skywalker, there's no way that Gamble will never consistently work out for Reanimator.

The red splash, as I see it, only really gives you Firespout. Ancient Grudge would be the second card I would want in red. Burning Wish sounds interesting, but I'd have to play around with a list to see how it plays out. My instinct tells me that it's a little slow for this deck.

On a side note, I split the top 4 of 32 again this week with the deck. Beating CounterTop, Rock, Berserk Stompy and 43 Land. The highlight was beating Countertop through two active Counterbalances and a SDT on the board. Show and Tell, folks. You've got to play it.

[BreathWeapon]

If you could post a decklist that'd be helpful. I actually like the idea of playing Red. Firespout is great.

Sure,

MD

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
4 Burning Wish
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 "Big Critters" (Usually Iona, Archon, Sphinx and Akromal)
3 Exhume
4 Animate Dead

17 Lands (Always changing this)

SB

1 Show and Tell
1 Buried Alive
1 Last Rites
1 Sickening Dreams (God, I love this card; bye bye Faeries)
1 Exhume
1 Perish
1 Shattering Spree
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Tropical/Bayou
2 Critters

[practical joke]

what's the average turn that you drop something?
Seems to me that it would be T3 consistently and sometimes a T2.
I can't believe that's doing you much good against counterbalance, though you do have a better strategy against chalice @ 1

[BreathWeapon]

Generally Turn 3, tho' Turn 2 isn't much of a stretch. I'm more control(ish) then other lists because I run Animate Dead over Reanimate and can stand to take some damage, tho' obv. I hate the odd Qasali. I also mix up my game a bit by boarding in more creatures and 3 Show and Tell, tho' I haven't gone that route lately.

[Folkien]

Why do you run 4 careful study with such a low creatures count? does it work for you?
wouldnt it be better to low the burning wish amount and add some mystical tutor or something more useful?

[BreathWeapon]

Why do you run 4 careful study with such a low creatures count?
wouldnt it be better to low the burning wish amount and add some mystical tutor or something more useful?

Because the Brainstorms and Ponders find those 4 creatures really, really fast and I don't want to waste my Thought Seizes targeting myself, I also run more creatures post-board. Digging and then discarding is pretty ideal, I'd rather add another creature than cut a Careful Study if I feel the card is underutilized.

Mystical Tutors blows goats, Burning Wish > that card by a mile.

[Chronox]

You have 17 lands and no mana accel. I can't conceive how can you run with burning wish over mystical tutor. I suppose it's a matter of meta and personal preferences, but i think that you are seldom getting enough mana (4 or more) to play burning wish+something useful at the moment needed. however, if you play more control, i suppose you can wait until turn 4 or 5 to play something.
I once played with burning wish on main and I know how slow it can be, but it was when my deck was really casual, so that must change the things a lot. Sickening dreams is a really cool card, but only if you run a high creature count. otherwise you'll end top decking and possibly with nothing useful in the graveyard.

[BreathWeapon]

Honestly, with Force of Will, Daze and Thought Seize as well as +9 life from Reanimate, I don't really understand what you guys think you need to be racing with Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal. I guess we just play the archetype differently, personally I think the "rush in head long with a fatty" plan blows in a format with 8 STP and Zoo. I generally play it more aggro-control, control-combo or however you want to define it.

[Chronox]

one question, how do you deal with menaces to your creatures? like krosan grip to your animate dead or swords to plowshares to your fatty. it's the difference between playing those creatures and creatures with shroud important? do you find your animate dead being destroyed regularly? or it's enough the control you have to protect them.

[konsultant]

Honestly, with Force of Will, Daze and Thought Seize as well as +9 life from Reanimate, I don't really understand what you guys think you need to be racing with Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal. I guess we just play the archetype differently, personally I think the "rush in head long with a fatty" plan blows in a format with 8 STP and Zoo. I generally play it more aggro-control, control-combo or however you want to define it.

Ive cut all petals and rituals for awhile now, although I prefer 18 lands, and I don't miss them at all. VERY situationally they gave you a fast win that you may have not had otherwise but generally speaking you don't need them. I cut rituals for careful studys even with a low creature count and I prefer the stidies by far. Even without a creature to dump they filter your hand quickly and if you hit a creature or your iona gets bounced the study is crazy good.

[BreathWeapon]

one question, how do you deal with menaces to your creatures? like krosan grip to your animate dead or swords to plowshares to your fatty. it's the difference between playing those creatures and creatures with shroud important? do you find your animate dead being destroyed regularly? or it's enough the control you have to protect them.

Animate Dead is a "neat" card in the sense your opponent will SB in really narrow answers, and you'll just SB out your Animate Deads for the 4th Entomb, 3 Show and Tell and more creatures and laugh at their Krosan Grips. That aside, I think Force of Will and Daze deal with Qasali Pridemage well enough, the rest of their removal sweet either gets Iona(ed) or disregarded with Inkwell.

Basically, anticipate how they SB and then side step it, it's like the same way TES brings in Xantid Swarms after its opponent SBs out their Plows for Pierces etc.

[Vacrix]

BreathWeapon, no love for stifle? I like the inclusion of Burning Wish over Mystical Tutor, I'm going to test it immediately in my build, but I just love stifle for so many reasons. It provides another answer to storm combo, it can stifle fetchlands gives you a great head start against resolving your reanimation and stifling fetches makes daze much stronger, while it also protects you from pridgemage on animate dead (though you say you board them out) and it protects your grave from hate, and is randomly useful on so many other occasions. I run a 2/2 split between careful study and stifle and it works pretty well, though my build right now also runs 3 mystical tutor and 1 tuition instead of 4 b-wish. I agree that careful study is underrated but 4 seems too high. You are finding creatures with your cantrips but you are also finding careful studies if you need them to discard your dudes.

And out of curiosity which matchups have you been winning/losing?

Burning Wish looks tight and I like Last Rites in the board. It looks like a great protection spell and completely cripples combo long enough to get Iona online. Have you been running into wasteland issues (another reason to run stifle)? 17 land looks really low man.

[BreathWeapon]

Land count is fine IMO, I've got 12 cantrips so it's not a big deal. Stifle is cool and all, but it doesn't really advance your game plan; I want counters that resolve my spells. Match ups very, I find Goblins and Zoo to be the toughest where the aggro-control match ups are pretty solid.

[Darkenslight]

I just had a thought:

What if, instead of siding to better your matchups, you instead changed into a completely different animal?

Here's a sideboard I propose:

4 Dream Halls
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Conflux
2 Show and Tell
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Nucklavee
1 Meta slot?

It's an interesting idea, especially considereing you can run a hybridised deck, and a number of the cards are identical in both decks.

[whienot]

There's an old quote somwhere about transformational sideboards. Basically it would only work in the first few rounds of a tournament. After that, you're tech is leaked and won't do you much good.

My question regarding this plan is, does Dream Halls help your bad match-ups?

[Jaynel]

I just had a thought:

What if, instead of siding to better your matchups, you instead changed into a completely different animal?

Here's a sideboard I propose:

4 Dream Halls
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Conflux
2 Show and Tell
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Nucklavee
1 Meta slot?

It's an interesting idea, especially considereing you can run a hybridised deck, and a number of the cards are identical in both decks.

You'd probably need to be running Dark Rituals maindeck if you want to have any chance of casting Dream Halls.

[Chronox]

show and tell =/

[whienot]

Jaynel's post is correct. You will not cast Dream Hall with any consistentcy without Rits. Sure, Show and Tell helps, but I hardly think it's enough here.

Decks based around Dream Halls can still cast the enchantment if the S&T gets countered. It's not sideboard material imop.

[Chronox]

ah obviously the mana accel is always necessary, but i think that something like lotus petal is more useful in this case. i thought that he meant you should run dark ritual in order to be able to cast dream halls. so to sum it up IMHO mana accel is a yes, specifically dark ritual idk.

[Vacrix]

It would be an interesting take on avoiding grave hate post board, and discarding creatures and then reanimating them is always fun, making the most of the card. The question is, how well does it improve the aggro matchup. You have to run mystical tutors instead of Burning Wish to support the SB plan but it really does avoid grave hate. Dream Halls average win is like turn 3/4? Its an interesting idea to say the least. Needs testing but I expect it to be inconsistent. Dream Halls.dec can make good of decent hands via the cantrips. If we run 12 cantrips like in BreathWeapon's build then maybe it could be a decent strategy against straight up aggro like zoo and goblins.

[Azathoth]

My next tournament I will try to play a Reanimator deck with Iona-painter combo.

The idea of the deck is:

4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Thought seize
4 Duress
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Pernicious deed


3 Iona
1 Inkwell leviathan

4 Painter servant
2 Grindstone

Mana (18)
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacomb
1x Marsh flats
1x Floodes strand
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
3x Swamp
2x Tundra
1x Island


Sideboard:

2 x Engineered Plague
3 x Krosan grip
3 x Extirpate
3 x Show and tell
1 x Reverent Silence
3 x Sword to plowshares
... Gloom¿?

With enlightened Tutor I can find some cards; painter, grindstone , animate dead , pernicious deed, Inkwell ( if necessary ).
It´s hard to quit "fows and dazes", but I wait that "duress and thoughtseize" are sufficient to prevent amenaces; I´m very confusing with the idea yet.
Can anyone give me a advice about this deck? Anybody tried this construct before?

Thanks and regards!

[Vacrix]

Looks decent having 2 win cons, but consider that elemental blasts look particulary sexy here in place of those awful looking duress'. Deed is thought provoking. You don't want to blow your own painter or grindstone and lose a combo piece, but it does blow the board really well if you can't reanimate something fast enough. The question is how effective is Deed against aggro nowaday's? I dont think it buys you enough time. The best you can get without acceleration like dark ritual is a turn 4 busted Deed, and will that save you from dying to burn by zoo? I think the other version is more viable. Not to say it shouldnt be tested. This might only be the case against zoo and might be different against goblins or elves, though merfolk looks much harder with their additional protection spells. I think the list needs more Daze or Lightning bolts to buy you some time for Deed to be effective while your cantrips find you your pieces and deed blows the board to buy you time to cast those pieces. The list also has a questionable amount of protection though. The combo matchup looks really weak without force and daze, and you don't have as much slower playing power against control that Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor bring to the table. Mystical Tutor and Burning Wish can find you protection or a piece of the combo while enlightened tutor finds either a combo piece or a piece to blow the board. At best you will improve the aggro matchups but at the expense of most other significant matchups. The board could take care of those problems for all I know. It deserves testing. Right now I can only conclude that Breathweapon's build looks better. Burning Wish for Firespout looks much stronger then the random enlightened tutor for Deed, which takes 3 turns upon resolving Deed, while Burning Wish for Firespout takes 2 turns to resolve. And Burning Wish provides you will all sorts of utilities for various matchups.

[practical joke]

Deed + painter's servant/grindstone. Seems a bit off, there are times of dead hands.

Careful study is amazing, you can turn your dead land draws in new cards. I use it for that (when finding no creature) all the time.
Mystical tutor> burning wish everyday.
The wish has a limit of targets wheren mystical can get anything you need, hence you play a small toolbox that is never bad.

animate dead: using this cards will give you less options against many decks, playing petals or rituals makes you deck faster at times, and those 9-11 lives you've lost hardly count.

There are hardly any decks that can do 10 damage in T3, especially when you lock a color.
Goblins can and merfolk can, but against both decks you can lock a color and they'll never have a chance to recover.
On the draw is a bit trickier, play it well and you'll win as well.

[Tacosnape]

So going back to the variations of the list that is actually placing in tournaments, I've got a few questions for the more experienced players.

1. Do you really need four threats or can you get by with three? Thus far I find myself never wanting to get Empyrial Archangel, as he never seems to go the distance, can't really save you from an aggro wave since they have no trouble dealing 8, and there's very few situations I'd rather have him than Iona, Sphinx, or Inkwell Leviathan. At the very least, I want to get him less often than he shows up in my hand as a dead card I could be doing something with. If anything, I've wanted to get Thunder Dragon and/or Blazing Archon more.

2. Do you need a removal-based giant creature like Woodfall Primus or Kederekt Leviathan, or are you better off just running Bounce (Or if you're running green, Nature's Claim/Deed/Grip/Whatever)

3. The general consensus of blind turn one Entomb/Reanimation combos seems to be to get Inkwell Leviathan. How often is this actually more correct than blind-playing Iona on White?

[Lev]

1.
I usually pick Empyrial against AggroControl, when there's a Goyf on the other side of the field which could race an Iona on white or a shrouded Inkwell, and when you dont want to get an Archon for it being removable. Empyrial does a solid job at being removal-resistent and keeping goyfs back. That's what I use her for and since Threshold of all variants or other aggrocontrol with goyf is a matchup thats pretty likely to get, I always run one Empyrial.

2.
I never felt like needing Woodfall Primus / Angel of Despair. Preboard, its unnecessary, postboard, Grip / Wipe Away does a better job.

3.
I think Inkwell as blind turn1 drop is ALWAYS more correct than Iona @ white, since there wont be a difference in grinding down the opponent, but as soon as you encounter something running non-white removal, with Iona youre instantly screwed.

[Davetradint]

I was trying to build the deck and talking to some players in my area I got the idea to not play petals and increase the number of hand disruption. This is, 4x duress and 4x Thoughtseize. You lose speed of course, but you can go off turn 2 and you have seen opp's hand. Has anyone tried something like this?

I'm thinking of playing only 3x Careful study instead of a full playset. With 4 critters (not 6 as some versiones I saw) it's not likely to have 1 of them in hand when you play the CS.

@Tacosnape: Have you tried Thunder Dragon? Would you recommend it?

[Lev]

@Davetradint

I am usually always running 8 Discard instead of any countermagic, because it doesnt go with carddisadvantage like FoW does and also gives you information about the opponents hand, also easier to make 1st turn protected kill with dark ritual.

this is my current list

// Lands
2 [U] Bayou
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [10E] Swamp (3)
4 [A] Underground Sea
2 [MM] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [7E] Duress
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [US] Exhume
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Reanimate

but i did some changes on it. before, there were -2 ponder, -1 exhume, -1 reanimate, -1 mystical tutor, -1 island, +4 dark ritual, +2 intuition
the old list (with the changes in the line above) ran pretty well and smooth. After that, I kicked out Ritual to test Lotus Petal, but I didnt like it for my Disruption required black mana, making me feel less good served with Petals than with Rituals.
Now, because it doesnt always happen that you get a piece of acceleration and thus a faster kill, but you still manage to win those games, I cut the acceleration totally to get this more consistent build, and as far as I tested it, I quite like it.

[johanessen]

What do you think about Strategic Planning? That card is TEH NUTZ in Reanimator, Careful Study effect without carddisadvantadge is huge, here 2cc cost isn't a big drawback yah?

[Lev]

Well to me the card sucks. O_o
Careful Study draws 2 cards, Planning 1 (okay, from the top 3, so it digs deeper, but anyway.)
The thing is, you DISCARD your critters with study. How the heck do you want to manage to get a critter to be under this 3 cards? Saving brainstorms for it? no way. Also, cc2 is in fact something bad.

[arebennian]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-[Deck]-B-U-Reanimator&p=403603&viewfull=1#post403603

Di take on why you should run FOW over additional discard.

[Vacrix]

3. The general consensus of blind turn one Entomb/Reanimation combos seems to be to get Inkwell Leviathan. How often is this actually more correct than blind-playing Iona on White?


3.
I think Inkwell as blind turn1 drop is ALWAYS more correct than Iona @ white, since there wont be a difference in grinding down the opponent, but as soon as you encounter something running non-white removal, with Iona youre instantly screwed.

The question that precedes that one is, why are we playing something blind in the first place? Well, reanimator wants to put a fast, reliable clock on the opponent. 7/11 inkwell with trample and islandwalk is often reliable in that it doesn't die. Iona on white can still get killed by malestrom pulse and other random removal, and both are swinging for 7 pretty consistently. If I had to play something blind, I would probably play Inkwell over Iona, but if the meta is heavy in storm, ichorid, etc. I might go for Iona naming black.

Also, do we always benefit by putting a clock on the opponent on turn 1 instead of on turn 2? We might think that we will kill the opponent a lot faster. This is not the case if we reanimate Inkwell, when the opponent is sitting on a decent hand playing storm combo or ichorid. I think the stronger play is first to find out more information to see what color to name with Iona. That play is usually accomplished with discard, or by just cantripping and waiting to see what the opponent plays. Besides, most builds play Force and Daze. First turn cantrip can often find us a piece of protection that makes waiting a turn to find out more information not so dangerous. Iona is usually game winning. If you can entomb for it, waiting to know which colors can make all the difference. Also, the builds that play discard over countermagic (I disagree with this approach) will often have a play turn 1 like Duress and those decks can therefore attack the hand vs. cantrip and wait. Keep in mind that Entomb is an instant. Entomb at the end of your opponents turn is really sexy now that you know what he is playing.

I'm growing to like Breathweapon's build in playtesting. Protection included, cantriping into Burning Wish --> Firespout usually gives me enough time get a creature down against aggro unless they get too many lords down and 3 damage just isn't enough. Daze and Thoughtseize should steal some of Merfolk and Elves lords so that Firespout is effective.

So in general, I don't know if the deck should sacrifice card space to support a blind turn 1. Its risky, and we aren't playing belcher. We are playing control/aggro. We should avoid blind plays.

[BreathWeapon]

Deed + painter's servant/grindstone. Seems a bit off, there are times of dead hands.

Careful study is amazing, you can turn your dead land draws in new cards. I use it for that (when finding no creature) all the time.
Mystical tutor> burning wish everyday.
The wish has a limit of targets wheren mystical can get anything you need, hence you play a small toolbox that is never bad.

animate dead: using this cards will give you less options against many decks, playing petals or rituals makes you deck faster at times, and those 9-11 lives you've lost hardly count.

There are hardly any decks that can do 10 damage in T3, especially when you lock a color.
Goblins can and merfolk can, but against both decks you can lock a color and they'll never have a chance to recover.
On the draw is a bit trickier, play it well and you'll win as well.

How is Mystical Tutor > Burning Wish if you're judging it based on "targets," because Burning Wish sure as shit has more targets in the SB that matter compared to the number of targets Mystical Tutor has in the MD. You don't want to waste MD space on stuff like Firespout and Show and Tell, so I'm sure Burning Wish's utility is way higher.

If you want to play Reanimate, go for it, but pretending you're going to Dark Ritual, Entomb, Reanimate every time to make Reanimate damage irrelevant is pretty naive, I can't even count the number of games Reanimate has cost me the match to Zoo.

Edit: Regarding Thunder Dragon, you're going to regret it over Blazing Archon every time you face Dredge.

[practical joke]

I've been creating this over and over again since entomb got unbanned again.
Burning wish can't find you a creature. Wish into buried alive isn't what you want.
Mystical can erase your draw step, but gets you the card you want. ( bounce, show and tell, entomb, exhume/reanimate, force of will or even a dark ritual)

That card can find anything in your deck that you might need, where wish can only find a limited ammount of things.

As well, I don't play dark rituals, I like petals more since I'll be taking on studies as an aditional way to go off, and get off-color mana for nature's claim for example. ( and it's a counter target daze permanent)

This will be my list at GP Madrid

3 underground sea
1 bayou
8 fetch
1 island
1 swamp

4 lotus petal

4 reanimate
4 ehxume
4 Force of Will
4 daze
3 mystical tutor
4 thoughtseize
4 entomb
1 show and tell
1 echoing truth
3 careful study
4 brainstorm

2 iona, shield of emeria
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empyrial archangel
1 sphinx of the steel wind

1 open slot ( this will be either: mystical, blazing archon or an iona)

SB:

4 nature's claim
4 extirpate
1 show and tell
1 perish
1 akroma, angel of wrath
2 spell pierce
1 extract
1 open slot ( maybe iona instead of 3 MB, spell pierce, show and tell, echoing truth)



So why no ritual:

preference of playstyle, I like it because I can get off with careful study on T1, protects me visible from daze, abusable for multiple colors.


Mainboard show and tell:

This has been so good in so many ways, as a 1-0ff you never have to be affraid of drawing this unwanted. you can discard it with studies, pitch to FoW, shuffle back with brainstorm or just use it the way it is. This one saved me a few times.

Mainboard bounce: This can protect your empyrial archangel that one turn that you need to win against aggro. A good answer to Empty the warrens and zombie tokens. Can take down early dropped chalice of the void, trinisphere's and other annoying things.

Empyrial: as said before, aggro-control. It won me about 6-7 matches the day I won dutch legacy nationals. All against 3-color rock.

Why daze?: compared to the list I won the nationals with, I luck-sacked a bit because only the finals match-up played counterbalance. I would've horribly lost against any pure control list without daze. A single FoW wasn't enough. Due to playing daze, the match-up against supreme blue and treshvariants have greatly improved.


SB choices:

Nature's claim: might be less good than krosan grip against counterbalace, it can still do it's work. 4-life is not noticable since you punch hard enough already. a well-timed claim CAN destroy counterbalance. (It worked flawlessly twice against dreadstill)
It's very fast against gy hate, since it can take down leyline,relic and crypt on T1.
Shame it's a cmc 1, since the first chalice is the worst :(

Akroma: you want a second answer against goblins, works very well against aggro-loam and other decks. This is also a back-up when the sphinx gets removed. ( fearie macabre or extirpate)

Spell pierce: a friend tested it against counterbalance, and it's very good. It can be those 2 spells you needed. Still in doubt if I don't want a dispel in that spot.

Extract: single-handedly destroys ANT, takes out NO-Pro. The last one has been a nuisance since iona doesn't seal the deal there.

Perish: with the come of Bant Aggro, this has been an excellent answer. It takes out progenitus, goyfs and other green nuisance.

extirpate: Slows down/disable ANT, keeps down loam-control decks. Slows down dredge/disables dredge easily. ( take down dredgers, or bridge/ichorid)

Why No pithing needle: the few things you use it against, nature's claim can solve it as well for the same ammount of mana ( except for wasteland, but you should be able to play around that)

More show and tell, why?: The second show and tell is there as nature's claim nr 5. It protects me from having the first one discarded where someone has a leyline or other gy removal in his game. It also is a second out against chalice @ 1. I don't need 4 of these since the release of nature's claim.

[arebennian]

What is the MD plan against Fae and Merfolk? And SB?
Those are two matchups you noted in the past as being sub 50/50.

[practical joke]

Mainboard: vs fae ( a speedy inkwell)
vs merfolk ( get a sphinx through, it's a blast).

Against both decks you just have to trick them in giving you space to drop a creature asap.

Mainboard the match-ups are quite okay. It's after SB-ing i'm worried, but resolving an iona and then blowing up their vials = a won game :)
I ditched the removal ( except for perish, special reasons) since I didn't use them.

[Chronox]

are 14 lands and 4 lotus petals enough?

[practical joke]

In my hands....

It's even a lot.

Without grip in SB, this deck can win on only 2 lands. ( it's very tricky against *****-decks)

And you play 18 lands ( 4 petals are considered a 1-use only land), it makes you more vulnerable to daze and spell pierce. but this deck has always been like that. ( even when playing ritual)

I have at this moment 1 slots left, and one of the options is adding a 9th fetchland.
This requires some more testing to be 100% sure.

This deck is considered a combo deck ( even though we don't win on the turn we drop something), a few lands are needed. T1 ( study,seize,entomb, tutor) with a 2nd turn land drop for ( entomb, reanimate, exhume) that's it. you will find more lands with careful study and brainstorm. Don't fall in the stifle or wasteland trap. It can get tricky, but since you can float mana, it shouldn't be a major issue.

[arebennian]

Running only 14 SOLID land drops will lose you more games than you win via the extra slots you gain.

You noted how adding Daze has improved your matchup against blue, but I cannot see how anything with any land based disruption (Thrash, Merfolk, Fae, Baseruption, Eva Green, Team America, Gobilns etc...) won't screw you over; particularly if it also has blue for counterspells.

You have played the deck alot more than me but with 14 LANDS, well, I can't see your 50-50 matchups, nor the <50%, being anywhere near winnable.

[Vacrix]

This deck is considered a combo deck ( even though we don't win on the turn we drop something), a few lands are needed. T1 ( study,seize,entomb, tutor) with a 2nd turn land drop for ( entomb, reanimate, exhume) that's it. you will find more lands with careful study and brainstorm. Don't fall in the stifle or wasteland trap. It can get tricky, but since you can float mana, it shouldn't be a major issue.

But should it be played like a combo deck? Just because people consider it a combo deck doesn't mean it should play like one. Playing with 14 lands is dangerous. Against something like tempo thresh, you are going to be going all in on one reanimation spell. They will stifle your fetches and waste your duals. If you lose the counter war and thresh puts a clock on you then you are done. Having the flexibility of cantrips and LANDS allows you to get some steam and try to play out your pieces again. Sure the deck might have some issues with daze and spell pierce but having a single land can cantrip you into more lands. Your build is unlikely to yield enough lands for you to make that play. I used to play this build. Blind turn 1's don't justify the lotus petals. Honestly what is the difference between turns 1 and 2 against aggro? Iona on the right color is going to screw any aggro deck. The only exception to that rule is against goblins when they can play vial and then drop stingscourer, and even then, your opponent should be at 6 life or less from 2 Iona beats, and you had 2 turns to find more reanimation/cantrips etc. This is all assuming that you can't counter their vial with daze or something.


Extract: single-handedly destroys ANT, takes out NO-Pro. The last one has been a nuisance since iona doesn't seal the deal there.

Extract looks interesting at best. You should be able to race Progenitals with Sphinx or just avoid it entirely with Blazing Archon. I don't think its a good use of space. Besides, ANT isn't the only combo deck out there. Decks with multiple win cons like TES, DDANT, SI, etc. will destroy you for playing this instead of better storm hate. Also, isn't thoughtseize, force and daze enough? Once you have Iona down after playing some distruption, it should be clear sailing.

[practical joke]

For one, you rarely get the chance to drop multiple creatures. you'll win on the first.
Against all decks you mentioned, all are good match-ups.

Fea, goblins,team america and eva green are very good match-ups.

why, you only need 2 land drops. one to cast entomb, one to cast the reanimation spell.
Merfolk is a tricky match-up only because it has a tight clock, enough counters and possibly free drops.
Tempo ***** is tough, because it has loads of counters, get one entomb through and the only thing you need is to get a single drop done. A decent player won't run into stifles blindly, plays around wasteland as far as possible.

14 lands might seem low ( maybe is) but adding a single fetch won't make me much more wasteland/stifleproof.
Every single drop of manasource on your turn, could be a win already. Having your combo exist out of 1-drops is very strong.

You clearly have not played this deck enough. You do not drop an iona vs goblins, you don't drop iona vs merfolk or fae.
Sphinx of the steel wind takes these games.

@ arebennian, I still have an open slot and I'm still testing if 14land + petals are enough or if I need to play a 9th fetchland.
It's true my build is a bit weak against land-destruction, but only against a very few decks.

About extract: I've played against ANT more often than you think, it has been the one deck I threw my deck against. I know how it works. Daze, thoughtseize, FoW and extirpate aren't always enough. Iona is not always going to save you against ANT ( due to bounce)
Extract only takes a single slot, takes out their tendrils. ( they rarely play 2, and emtpy the warrens shouldn't be a problem with echoing truth mainboard)
You cannot outrace a progenitus when the opponent plays swords to plowshares, you cannot drop a sphinx vs no pro, the chances are pretty big it won't last since they have dead removal.
Blazing archon doesn't seem play since the decks you play it against has SB answers to it. Most even mainboard. It'll cost so many resources to dump a second creature on the board.



What I'm looking for is a sideboard option against merfolk and tempo *****. These are one of the very few decks that will give me problems. Any other deck I'll face is considered beatable. These 2 decks have high counters, things you can't get rid of instantly a nasty sideboard and a good clock ( merfolk does).
Playing more lands doesn't win me these matches.

[whienot]

I bring in additional discard. Bring able to see their hand let's you see how to play around their counters.

I've had mixed results testing Xantid Swarm against Merfolk and Thrash. It shuts off their main means of stopping you, counters. Problem is, they only come in post board when they get their Crypts/Relics. Swarms can also chump a Goyf or a non-islandwalking Merfolk. (Actually won a game from being able to block.)

But overall, Swarms have been mediocre at best.

Of course, you can always board in Tarmogoyf, or Show and Tell and Boseiju....:tongue:

[Chronox]

boseiju? most of your spells are 1cc colored.

[whienot]

Boseiju was a joke.

[practical joke]

Actually goyfs would've been great if not that it will be small, soo small. ( since the graveyard hate hates him as well )

It's nice that you tested the xantid swarms and even better that you've won a match to that.
Sometimes mediocre cards are the best you can get. I might give it a thought as well, but I won't bring them to a tournament yet, just to the testing table. ( everything needs to be tested :p

[Azathoth]

Hello,

I´m thinking to add Platinum Angel into the SB, one question: If you cast "reanimate" to a Platinum Angel and you have less of 7 lifes... You don´t loss the game?

thanks and regards,

[practical joke]

Everything should resolve in card-order.

So first put platinum angel into play and then lose 7 life. Checking state-based effects after resolving should result into not being able to lose the game, but this might be a better question for the rules part of the forum since II'm no judge, I'm not 100% sure.

[Cacks]

Actually goyfs would've been great if not that it will be small, soo small. ( since the graveyard hate hates him as well )



I've been trying a build adding goyfs, along with (or rather powered by) survival of the fittest and squee to a standard build. It adds some more mid game power, but is slightly less explosive. Once they get going the survivals are good in that they not only enable you to drop goyfs four turns in a row, but can also tutor up and discard fatties for reamination, as well as tutoring spare blue creatures for force of will and shuffling with brainstorm / getting rid of cards you don't want with ponder (assuming you want one or two of the three you see). Although there are only 9 creatures in the deck, you can obv. entomb squee, and with all the card manipulation you can usually find something to get it rolling. So far in testing I am liking having this second string to the deck's bow, and it can really shine against decks which max out on spot removal, where they have to choose between blowing their swords / paths on a stream of goyfs, or to hold something back to deal with the inevitable fatty. There is a GP Trial here soon, where I am planning to run this (unless my wife is giving birth, a real possibility ...). My curent list:

4 entomb
3 reanimate
3 exhume
2 mystical tutor
4 survival of the fittest (although I think that 3 and 3 mystical is probably better)
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 thoughtsieze
4 'goyf
1 iona
1 sphinx (which, surprisingly, seems to be the go to fatty in most matchups)
1 inkwell
1 angel of dispair (I run this instead of wipe away or echoing truth, as it is easier for this build to tutor up; but want to test that new big elephant instead)
1 squee

3 chrome mox
2 bayou, 2 tropical island, 2 undergtround sea, 1 swamp, 1 island, 1 forest, 7 various sacland.

SB currently: 1 blazing archon, 1 mystical, 1 perish, 1 sphinx or akroma, 2 krosan grip, 2 show & tell, 2 duress, 1 exhume, 4 leyline / extirpate

I am also running more, and more stable, mana than some other lists. Some numbers seem very low to me, but then again being run by people with proven success in impressive tournaments, which you have to acknowledge. Certainly this build is more mana hungry, and being a bit slower needs more resilience to mana disruption.

Like any new concept, this isn't perfect, but does provide an interesting variation.

[Azathoth]

Hello!

I had played a tournament today with "nature's claim" in the SB. Never more I will use this card ( I will replace for the Krosan grip )
I had difficult with counterbalance ( a krosan grip help me to win ), but two Stax broke me two times... impossible to win for me; Chalice into one and bye bye... Ensnaring Bridge and Smokestack did the rest.
Please anyone can tell me a strategy to win "Stax"?, What is the correct change with the SB? I had put spell pierce, nature´s claim and hurkyl but was impossible...
I played with a deck it´s like as the last published by "Practical joke"

Next report I will inform the results of my Painter-Iona deck.

Thanks and regards!

[robertoe]

Pernicious Deed is unreal versus Stax. A quick dude and counters will do the job as well. If you don't have a splash color then nevinyrral's disk is probably ok, and better against moon decks.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

What I'm looking for is a sideboard option against merfolk and tempo *****. These are one of the very few decks that will give me problems. Any other deck I'll face is considered beatable. These 2 decks have high counters, things you can't get rid of instantly a nasty sideboard and a good clock ( merfolk does).
Playing more lands doesn't win me these matches.

It seems to me that Engineered Explosives would probably be "teh nutz" against both of these decks if you're able to resolve it, especially in a version of this deck that runs green cards out of the sideboard (to be able to EE for 3). Thrash is anemic on threats as it is, so just blowing up their Goyfs and Geese is probably the easiest way to win the match IMO. Merfolk also takes a severe beating from EE, and many of the Merf lists do not run Stifle these days, increasing their vulnerability to it.

Hell, it's even decent against Zoo, which I understand is not always the best matchup for y'all. Is there some reason I don't seem to see it brought up in peoples' sideboards in the last few pages of this thread? It's a little slow, but no slower than Deed, which has been suggested to fight against Stax... I mean hell, EE is usually quicker than Deed.

...I suppose Engineered Plague is always an option too, although it really can't hope to do much against Thrash.

[practical joke]

I removed EE from SB, and I'm not really sure why.
Against staxx well-timed counters are the big thing.
A trinisphere isn't that bad, smokestack isn't bad either if you have enough permanents to win the game with.
Chalice is the one card you must counter.

I played against stacks myself a few times ( white staxx only), and I've never lost the match-up ( sure winning 2-1 happens, but that's about it)

Never keep hands that are vulnerable to chalice when on the draw, mulligan is key, since you cannot answer a chalice @ one very well.
Iona @ white will do the trick, they wil eventually stack enough white cards in their hands so that they have 7 white ones. ( winning after that isn't a problem).

Against counterbalance, deal with the CB the turn it comes into play, or remove it the turn it comes into play. Tricking your opponent is key, krosan grip will always be better in removing CB, but it isn't always better when removing gy-hate cards.

@dukedemonkn1ght: looking back to EE seems like an excellent plan, might add 2 to SB. that way you have multiple answers. I used them before with great succes against zoo-like decks.
( EE clears zoo, vials, crypts, chalice, planar void etc.)

At that point I might cut 1 nature's claim and use the open slot for 2 EE.
You can get an EE up to 4 colors even. won't happen a lot, but it's a great removal threat. ( also takes down jitte's+ fishes)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I knew I was good for something. :laugh:

[Azathoth]

Was a "brown stax" that destroy me ( 2 decks ); Wastelands, Rishadan ports with Trinisphere is very dangerous...
Smokestack eat the reanimator in 2 turns ( Always We have only a few permanents on board ) ... and They easy make multiple combos against us ( Crucible-smokestack, Tabernacle-Trini-Ensnaring Bridge... )
You are correct; If you don´t have a hand with counters you need to make mulligan ( but this is not sufficient, stax is a recurring attack).
Now, I´m thinking to put many Pernicious Deeds into reanimator deck... Pernicious is slow ok, but is a powerful card and don´t interfiere in our plans.
I choose a bit slow for a powerful control, it´s my experience.

[practical joke]

The problem with brown staxx it that it will be playing lodestone golem soon enough.
Therefore with ports and wastelands, you won't be likely to get 3 mana. If you want to destroy anything with a pernicious deed, you will need approx 4mana. (staxx, trinisphere, lodestone golem, crucible etc.) all those are 3+ mana.
It's not an easy match-up, but it should be winnable. get your basics asap. ( no stifles, so that should be no prob), take a peek at their hands ( thoughtseize) and try to counter anything that will pose a serious threat. (count the number of ports and wastelands, combine that with your counters and tutors) You should have enough information by now to take that deck to a test.

Brown staxx only has 2 problematic cards once you drop a creature. Ensnaring bridge and staxx itself. (also staxx itself can be quite harmless when you can make a landdrop each turn and place an additional petal to it)


I played with pernicious deed before, in the end it turned out to be too slow against the majority of the decks. It's very powerfull indeed, and I wish my land-count could support it, but it simply doesn't.

I think staxx ( white especially, but brown should be as well) isn't that bad a match-up, it's simply a learn how-to-beat-staxx thing.
With experience the wins will come, since you know exactly which cards will be able to take you out.

[Azathoth]

I played with 18 lands... but maybe is moment to play with 16 lands and 4 dark rituals; ritual seems good to make viable the deed.
Also, I´m thinking to implement white into the deck to use "Serenity". People here it´s habitual to have 4 or 5 cards against cemetry.

I had another idea; It´s to put into the deck 1 "Child of alara" and a "Nicol bolas" to play a instant black spell ( don´t remember the name ) 1B: take the creature for your cemetry, creature gains haste... sacrifique at end of turn... but maybe it´s a crazy idea.

[practical joke]

It's a crazy idea, but will only work in a survival build with anger added to the flavour.

[whienot]

I believe you're thinking about Shallow Grave, from Mirage. Shallow Grave exiles at the beginning of next end step, not sacriice. So, the trick will not work with Child of Alara.

Shallow Grave does work with Nicol Bolas, though. I used to play this combo in my early days of magic. It's fun, sure, but I don't know if good enough for competitive play.

I split top 4 at my local tourny again last night. Played against Lands! 2-1, Ugwr Counterbalance 1-2, Rock w/ maindeck Extirpates! 2-1(yeah, lost game one to Extirpate on E. Archangel after an eot Entomb), Ugwr Counterbalance 2-1. Top 8 I get paired against mono-r burn, awesome.

The deck has been very consistant the last several weeks. Lands players are murmuring about bringing in Karakas against me. Not sure it's warranted for a total of ONE player in the meta (and E. Archangel can't be touched anyway), but It does make me reconsider Pithing Needle in the sideboard.

I also want to work Stifle somewhere into my 75. It hits so many things: Sower, Gatekeeper of Malakir (on the upswing in my meta), Wasteland, SDT (especially the tap ability).

For those that play it, how do you like it? Underwhelming? Face-breaker?

[practical joke]

A friend that copiest my list tried pithing needles in SB instead of cards I used. He wasn't very fond of it, it couldn't quite hit extirpates and leylines, therefore it lacks use.

Then again another friend tested my exact list as well, with pithing needle in it, but he swears it is awesome since it can stop wasteland.
I told him wasteland can be played around, nature's claim does everything a pithing needle does ( and both are useless against chalice @1) , and claim can destroy leyline of the void and planar void.
Then again there's one card where pithing needle will shine against at GP Madrid: Jace, the mind sculptor. Be prepared to get that thing countered asap.
If any other problem comes down solve it with a second entomb ;)
it works wonders with exhume on hand.

I decided to run 2 EE in sideboard and a 9th fetch mainboard. ( you can never have enough fetches)

[Vacrix]

I also want to work Stifle somewhere into my 75. It hits so many things: Sower, Gatekeeper of Malakir (on the upswing in my meta), Wasteland, SDT (especially the tap ability).

For those that play it, how do you like it? Underwhelming? Face-breaker?

I love it. For so many reasons, takes out all the things you said, storm triggers, belcher triggers, fetchlands, pridgemage, survival, flickerwisp, mangara, etc. god the list goes on forever. most decks have some trigger or activated ability that could fuck with your shit. I rarely find it as a dead card, and its a nice surprise against storm combo if they try to combo off with just one protection spell. I usually run a 2/2 split between careful study and stifle. Though in some matchups I really do like 4 stifle.


For one, you rarely get the chance to drop multiple creatures. you'll win on the first.
Against all decks you mentioned, all are good match-ups.

Fea, goblins,team america and eva green are very good match-ups.

why, you only need 2 land drops. one to cast entomb, one to cast the reanimation spell.
Merfolk is a tricky match-up only because it has a tight clock, enough counters and possibly free drops.
Tempo ***** is tough, because it has loads of counters, get one entomb through and the only thing you need is to get a single drop done. A decent player won't run into stifles blindly, plays around wasteland as far as possible.

14 lands might seem low ( maybe is) but adding a single fetch won't make me much more wasteland/stifleproof.
Every single drop of manasource on your turn, could be a win already. Having your combo exist out of 1-drops is very strong.

You clearly have not played this deck enough. You do not drop an iona vs goblins, you don't drop iona vs merfolk or fae.
Sphinx of the steel wind takes these games.

@ arebennian, I still have an open slot and I'm still testing if 14land + petals are enough or if I need to play a 9th fetchland.
It's true my build is a bit weak against land-destruction, but only against a very few decks.

About extract: I've played against ANT more often than you think, it has been the one deck I threw my deck against. I know how it works. Daze, thoughtseize, FoW and extirpate aren't always enough. Iona is not always going to save you against ANT ( due to bounce)
Extract only takes a single slot, takes out their tendrils. ( they rarely play 2, and emtpy the warrens shouldn't be a problem with echoing truth mainboard)
You cannot outrace a progenitus when the opponent plays swords to plowshares, you cannot drop a sphinx vs no pro, the chances are pretty big it won't last since they have dead removal.
Blazing archon doesn't seem play since the decks you play it against has SB answers to it. Most even mainboard. It'll cost so many resources to dump a second creature on the board.



What I'm looking for is a sideboard option against merfolk and tempo *****. These are one of the very few decks that will give me problems. Any other deck I'll face is considered beatable. These 2 decks have high counters, things you can't get rid of instantly a nasty sideboard and a good clock ( merfolk does).
Playing more lands doesn't win me these matches.

You rarely get the chance to play multiple creatures if you play an all or nothing build with 14 land and 4 lotus petal.

Sure you only need 2 land drops if you have entomb and reanimation in your opening hand, but that is not always the case. Besides, so many decks in legacy pack wasteland.

Ultimately you are trying to play a build that beats aggro with speed instead of playing a build that can setup and win against control. The question then is which build is more consistent. I think that the deck already has a good matchup against aggro. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is insane in most aggro matchups (zoo, goblins, elves, etc.) so you can recover even if you are getting your dude down a turn late. You CAN race progenitals if you attack first; you put your opponent on a 4 turn clock (24 damage), and due to lifelink they put you on a 5 turn clock. Even further you have access to Blazing Archon and control builds can better protect him, making the aggro matchup even better. Your build doesn't run enough protection to support it. And if you aren't comfortable with running archon, you can always play Emyprical Archangel.

Again, you can't lump all storm combo into one category. They all play differently and ANT is just an example of storm combo. A deck like TES or DDANT will destroy you with its multiple tutors and burning wishes for stuff in the board that you can't remove with Extract. It might be good in like 2 matchups, but there is better stuff to be running. Honestly, generic ANT isn't THAT good. Unless you run into a lot of them in your meta I don't see a point to devoting SB space to a improve your ANT matchup at the expense of other storm combo matchups. ANT is a few steps up from Belcher when it comes down to it; IGG loops and resolving AdN are far from difficult plays. Extract might makes your games against ANT easier but the more complex versions with Doomsday and such like NLS are going to give you a headache.

[Tacosnape]

Back to the threats discussion,

I'm down to three threats maindecked (Iona, Inkwell, Sphinx) and three in board (T-Dragon, Archon, Ked-Lev). I still stick by my assessment that Empyrial Archangel is terrible. Iona, Inkwell, and Sphinx handle -almost- every likely scenario I run into game one. The exception to this is that against Ichorid and removalless Merfolk I sometimes want Archon maindecked, so it may happen.

Here's my take on Thunder Dragon. Thunder Dragon is the guy you go get any time you want a Sphinx of the Steel Wind to stop their board, but you're pretty sure they have a removal spell you can't stop. Here are some of the situations I've best used him:

1. Against Goblins, facing 4-5 goblins where 1 or more of them are Piledrivers.
2. Against Merfolk that ran Echoing Truth maindeck to sweep 3+ Folk.
3. Against Natural Order Elves when my only reanimation spell was a Reanimate and I didn't think Iona on Green could go the distance given that among four other guys, an Imperious Perfect was on the board to make tokens for a lethal swing.

However, I will say this about Thunder Dragon. If you aren't running Buried Alive, he's worse, because you may not all that often get multiple Entombs to make him worthwhile.

[konsultant]

I made top 8 yesterday in the vestal mox event, we had 78 people in attendence. I went 5-0-2 through the swiss.

Round 1 I beat the mirror 2-0
Round 2 I beat Bant 2-0
Round 3 I beat Ichorid 2-1
Round 4 I beat Merfolk 2-0
Round 5 I beat a nightmare match up 2-1, Guy ran edict, new jace [can bounce guys], FOW, Spell Pierce, Counter Top, Daze and MAIN DECK Faerie Macabre, He also sided in more Macabre, Crypt and Relic.

Round 6 and 7 were ID's.

Lost in top 8 to Goblins on a combination of my opponents supreme top decking skills paired with me apparently having used all of my luck up ealier in the day.

The list that I chose to run yesterday:

Left Field Reanimator

4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb

4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Mystical Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

2x Iona
2x Inkwell
1x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Sundering Titan

4x Sea
2x Island
2x Swamp
10x Fetch lands

[practical joke]

@konsultant sounds like a deck without a kill of it's own. ( nightmare match reminded me of playtesting against dark *****, pure horror)
Didn't you miss the thoughtseize MB?
what SB did you use?
Losing from goblins can only be considered insane topdecking skills from the opponent or terrible topdecking of your own.


@vacrix: TES builds are tougher, extract won't be needed there. The ANT and all other variants ( but ANT is by far most common, even with or without doomsday) are challenging, mind-boggling battles. That single sideboard slot for that single extract can spoil their gameplan completely. Burning wish can't find a new ad nauseam or a chain of vapor/slaughter pact/ wipe away. It has more targets than just that single tendrils.

You could chose for a single SB slot for extract or go and use 4 stifles. Whichever you prefer most.

[konsultant]

@Practical Joke, he ran Goyf and Bob for win conditions that I saw. I ran 4x thoughtsieze in the sb. I know it may be unconventional to run them in the SB but I prefer them there, just personal playstyle I guess.

My goblins match up was retarded. I open 2x land, entomb, reanimate, daze, 2x Force of Will. Couldn't be any happier. He wins the die roll and leads with a vial, I draw a second entomb for turn and throw sphinx in the yard. Turn two he drops a second vial and says go. At this point I draw a land for every card for the remainder of the game. I reanimate it, he casts wierding and I fow, his next turn he uses vial to put in matron to get wierding I never drew a blue card so it hits. On his following turn he drops warcheif, chiefton and piledriver and swings for the win in one attack step. I had entombed for blazing archon as well, had I drawn any blue card or a second animate effect i'm confident in saying I would have taken game one.

Game two, he mulls down to 6 and I lead with a discard spell, I have entomb and 2x exhume in hand with some cantrips, he has 3x land, vial, crypt, ringleader. I take the crypt and pass. he draws another crypt for turn and drops it with the vial. I'm very light on land and don't have a bounce spell in hand but thankfully he doesn't have an aggressive hand so I should have time except oh wait he drew lackey fur turn two draw, he vials him in and swings dropping the ringleader whitch of course reveals 2x piledriver and a wierding. so I acknowledge that I am not meant to win this round and get up and walk away.

Sorry I always forget to put up the SB, the one I used on sat was

3x chain of vapor
1x hurkyl's recall
1x rushing river
4x thoughtsieze
3x duress
3x faerie macabre (not sold on this slot at all, im just tired of losing the mirror as I was 0-3 in the mirror so far due to my opponents opening a turn one with counter back up literally every mirror game I have played so far it seems)

[Jim Higginbottom]

What are the 3 chain of vapors for? Are they just for bouncing crypts/relics eot? Would some number of echoing truths be better to stop chalice @ 1?

[practical joke]

@Practical Joke, he ran Goyf and Bob for win conditions that I saw. I ran 4x thoughtsieze in the sb. I know it may be unconventional to run them in the SB but I prefer them there, just personal playstyle I guess.

My goblins match up was retarded. I open 2x land, entomb, reanimate, daze, 2x Force of Will. Couldn't be any happier. He wins the die roll and leads with a vial, I draw a second entomb for turn and throw sphinx in the yard. Turn two he drops a second vial and says go. At this point I draw a land for every card for the remainder of the game. I reanimate it, he casts wierding and I fow, his next turn he uses vial to put in matron to get wierding I never drew a blue card so it hits. On his following turn he drops warcheif, chiefton and piledriver and swings for the win in one attack step. I had entombed for blazing archon as well, had I drawn any blue card or a second animate effect i'm confident in saying I would have taken game one.



dark tempo, I've played against it and it's quite strong. Also goblins can lucksack themselves into insanity = (

chains are high likely for T1 bounce/removal. It's quite strong but can be used against you, so I wouldn't use that either. ( nature's claim does a better job at removing leylines :P)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Chain of Vapor in the sideboard makes no sense to me. If the main thing you need your bounce spell for is to bounce Chalice @1 (and I think that's the number one thing this deck would want to bounce), then you really want to be playing Echoing Truth in that slot.

[konsultant]

I am not at all concerned about bouncing chalice at one. I am soley concerned with speed and consistency, nothing bounces a singleton crypt or relic as quickly as Chain. There is still a river and the Hurkyl's for needing to bounce multiple hate cards or for bouncing Chalice should it resolve. In order for Chalice to be relevent they need to be on the play, open Chalice and some way to produce two mana turn one and I need to not have opened Force. Yes it can happen and Echoing Truth would be very useful in certain situations but Chain won me a few games because of it's speed, once by allowing a turn two animate when a leyline started in play and another time by allowing turn 3 animate with a crypt in play allowing me to play around a curse catcher. Once I have animated I do not need to bounce opposing creatures unless I am racing with Inkwell whitch can't be targeted by Chain so it doesn't matter. I do not want to go back to 3 colors, I lost several games to wastelands on my Bayou's. If it is at all possable to stay at two colors I intend to do so.

The mistake I have learned from testing this deck was I was trying to get too cute with things, speed is by far our best advantage as long as the deck can maintain a high level of consistency. While I would like to play petals I prefer ponders to make the deck combo more reliably. It's a very tight balance between redundency and tempo with reanimator. My point is this, yes I will probably lose to double Leyline and there are several different situations that chances are my list won't be able to overcome, such as Chalice at 1 and Leyline before my first turn, the thing is I typically was losing those games anyway, not because I couldn't deal with the hate but because by the time I did my opponent was too far ahead for me to regain the game. I'd rather roll the dice that my opponent won't get crazy lucky two out of three games and put as much tempo pressure on them as possable. So I went with Chain over Truth. If I was really starting to run into problems with double leyline [the only real benefit I see to playing truth as hurkyl's is alot better against all artifact hate] I'd cut the graveyard hate out of my sb and and some truths into the sideboard but I don't see myself cutting Chain.

[whienot]

I'm not a fan of CoV either. But, Chalice is barely played nowadays. Aggro Loam is the only DtB/DtW that is known to run them (Merfolk has discussed running them in the board), even then it's not always there. Chain is there to bounce Crypt/Relic eot. It doesn't tie up mana on the reanimation turn like Stifle would. It has it's benefits, but I haven't tested.
Edit: Konsultant beat me to it.


(Rant) Goblins Goblins GOBLINS! Every time I sit across from the deck, I mull to 5 and they have Lackey, SGC, Piledriver and STP. I'm finding the white splash nigh unbeatable.

[practical joke]

I don't think goblins with white splash is very good and consider the tournament results, mono-red still has the better ones.

Most goblins will also play with a black splash faster than white. if they go white, that's harder for us, but I wouldn't be too affraid of that.
Bring home the counterspells! oh and the thoughtseizes :p

[Cacks]

@Konsultant, I really like your list - streamlined and single minded, and propose on playing it (or something very like it) at a GP trial on Sat. Two questions, how did you sideboard for the bant and merfolk matchups, and what do you do for zoo? Secondly I am finding daze underwhelming, in that the main counter target seems to me to usually be path / swords, and they can usually play round daze. It may be that I am not aiming at the right targets and you are using it as general disruption to mess with their games, rather than to specifically protect the reanimated fatty. I am toying with 3 thoughsieze and a fourth slot of possibly a rather left field misdirection (FoW no 5).

[Azathoth]

Hello everybody... I´m living in Madrid, If anyone are going to come to the GP I think that We can meet us and practice before the GP; Is anyone interested in the idea?

Regards!

[fdiv_bug]

I've been running Reanimator for the past few weekly Legacy events here, and I've got a list I'm pretty comfortable with. I wanted to run it by y'all just to solicit some input and feedback, and find out if there's something I've missed. I'll post the list first, with some thoughts below.

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Careful Study

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Blazing Archon
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Island


4 Spell Pierce
4 Nature's Claim
4 Duress
3 Extirpate

I'm pretty confident with the main deck. I got most of it from Konsultant -- thanks, man! -- especially the Ponder over Thoughtseize. It's proven to be super consistent for me, what with all the search and dig cards, and I'm happy. I do need to pick up a fourth Polluted Delta; I'll probably replace one of the Verdant Catacombs with it once I've done so.

For the sideboard, something I'd like everyone to take away from this post is that Nature's Claim is the nuts against pretty much everything except CounterTop. It's absolutely fantastic to be able to respond to their zeroth- or first-turn graveyard hate. It's also super great against AEther Vial, one of my worst enemies. So. Good. Four life? Whatever. I'll take it away from you pretty quick.

I still generally prefer Extirpate as my graveyard hate of choice, but I'm not sure if I want three of it and four Duress, or vice versa; I went with the above initially because I'd like to have a Duress in my opening hand more than an Extirpate. I plan on primarily using Duress against other combo or control, so I think I prefer it to Thoughtseize, especially considering how much life I often hemorrhage into Reanimating something.

So, thoughts?

[Azathoth]

Good list, but I recommeded you to put in the SB naturalize and krosan grip ( at least one of them ) because "Countertop" and "Chalice at one" can eat You easily...

[fdiv_bug]

Good list, but I recommeded you to put in the SB naturalize and krosan grip ( at least one of them ) because "Countertop" and "Chalice at one" can eat You easily...

Good call about Chalice; we don't usually have any in our local meta so it slipped my mind. One Krosan Grip and 3 Nature's Claim in the board might be just the trick. Assuming I can't counter it with Spell Pierce or Force, I can try to Mystical Tutor the Grip to the top of my library in response to whichever hateful little thing they're trying to land.

Thanks!

[Oxmo39]

Good call about Chalice; we don't usually have any in our local meta so it slipped my mind. One Krosan Grip and 3 Nature's Claim in the board might be just the trick. Assuming I can't counter it with Spell Pierce or Force, I can try to Mystical Tutor the Grip to the top of my library in response to whichever hateful little thing they're trying to land.

Thanks!

Don't forget that if Nature's Claim is bad against Chalice, so is Mystical Tutor to get you this singleton Krosan Grip...

[Cacks]

Hi All, I had a chance to play in a GP Trial over the weekend with UB Reanimator, ending up top of the swiss (but eliminated in the top 4). The event was surprisingly small (about 25 players) but a fair number had already booked their flights and hotel for the GP and were keen for the byes, so the play was fairly tight.

I played Konsultant's list, but replacing the 4 daze with 3 thoughtsieze and a misdirection, and I played 2 spinx / 1 inkwell, rather than 2 inkwell / 1 sphinx. Oh, and I swapped the sundering titan for the big elephant, as a generic main deck out to problem cards. I have no idea if the misdirection was any good, as I never drew it in 7 rounds (but then again never tutored for it either). For a SB I took:

3 duress
1 thoughtsieze
1 perish
3 leyline of the void
1 extirpate
3 chain of vapor (MVP, although I usually only sided in 2)
1 hurkyl's recall
1 rushing river
1 show and tell

Generally I was happy with this, save that I never sided in the rushing river or show and tell. I'd probably play an additional leyline + ?something else? in the future.

R1: very nice guy (lost his name however, sorry fella') playing mon-green agro elves. The matchup was awful for him. In the first game I have a T2 or 3 Iona and he scooped. In the second game I had a turn 3 Iona, but nonetheless died on his T4 attack - his deck can be fast, but in reality this was my play error, as I don't believe he would have had an out if I'd tutored up an archon. In the decider, however, a T3 Iona with double force backup was waaay to much for him.

R2: Alex with an old-style afffinity deck, who'd beaten lands in the first round. The first game was odd. I kept a slightly slow hand, not knowing what he was playing, and it took me forever to build anything up. On the other hand, he dropped his hand by T2, but then never drew a ravager or cranial plating. At 4 life I eventually got a sphinx into play, and then tutored FoW, and that was that. In the second he felt good with a much faster play and a first turn crypt. It didn't really matter, however, as I built up a hand, FoWed his key threat (ravager I think) and tutored for hurkyl's recall to give him a 13 card hand at the end of one of his turns... In fact he could potentially have got back in the game, as although I dropped a sphinx and an archon on my next turn, I stupidly attacked with the archon as wel the turn after, and he could have instant speed equiped his ornithopter with cranial plating and killed it. I probably still would have won, but he'd have had a chance. Needless to say I didn't attack with the archon again.

R3:This was a really interesting mirror match against a guy called Gary. We only had differences in the reamination targets: he had 3 iona and a akroma to my 2 iona, archon and extra sphinx (and I don't think he was playing terrastodon, for what that matters). The first game was a real mind bender. He went first and careful studied akroma and iona into his graveyard. I wasn't sure he knew what I was playing, and just dropped a sacland, hoping that if he exhumed on his turn I could respond with entombing iona, meaning he'd either have to legend rule both back to the graveyard (effectively countering his exhume, whilst I had a reaminate in hand to get mine back on my turn), or let me lock him out. As it is he reanimated instead, and guessed at akroma. If he'd chosen Iona I'd have been dead. I then entombed and reanimated Iona, on black. We were then in a position where I could not reaminate (too little life) nor exhume (as he'd legend rule my Iona); but he couldn't cast any black spells. I couldn't attack him, as akroma's backswing wouuld kill me, but he couldn't attack through Iona. I made the tactical decision to try to deck him, although this was only T2! He dug for answers, I stocked up force of wills. Eventually he hard cast Inkwell leviathan, and after a flurry of forces, it evernally resolved. By then, however, that left me able to exhume archon, to which he had no answers and by then a smaller library. He scooped. Game 2 was an anticlimax, I duressed (he FoW) then thoughsiezed on T2, saw that he needed to dig for an entomb or careful study, and on T3 tutored for Iona on Blue.

R4: A Mexican guy called Enrique playing solidarity, very old school, but he played it extremely well. He was clearly pretty good, as he already had the byes (but could claim the travel award if he won, so I understand). Game 1 I wasn't sure what he was playing, but a turn 2 spinx and FoW did not kill him before he went off on the annoucement of my attack phase, despite being on 1 life with 4 lands and something like 3 cards. He had to draw and play very tightly, and to his credit did absolutely that. But in reality the matchup was horrible for him, and after boarding I had 4 force, and 7 duress / thoughsieze (plus a smattering of tutorable anti-hate cards) and Iona on blue after a bit of discard was too much for him in both games.

R5: An ID against Stuart with 43 lands. After the ID we played it our for fun. I won 2 - 1, with Iona on Green in the first and T2 Inkwell in the third. The second was somewhat unfortunate. Because we were just kicking around, on my T3 I went for the big elephant instead of inkwell, nuking my lands and leaving me with a 9/9 and 3 x 3/3's. He had nothing useful in hand or on the table, but just pealed Tabernacle off the top! Frown.

In the top 8 I faced Enriques with solidarity again, and it really is a hopeless matchup for him. In the first game he kept a 1 land hand with something like ponder to dig with, and some 2cc draw (impulse probably). Unfortunately I thoughsiezed the ponder, he didn't peel a land, and by turn 3 I had a sphinx, 9/9 elephant, 2 x 3/3 elephants to his sole token and no land. In the second, by turn 4 (using 2 tutors) I had duressed twice, throughsiezed once, and had an Iona on blue. He didn't win that one.

The T4 was a bit of an anticlimax. I played a very competent dredge player, Kevin, with a very aggressive LED version. In the first I mulliganed poor hands to another poor 5 cards, and stuck. He also mulliganed to 5, but his deck doesn't care. I was stuck on 1 swamp and demolished. In the second I should have mulliganed again, but took a risk, and was held up by his T0 layline. He had a poor start too (another mulligan to 5) and I nearly slowed him enough by reaminating a stinkweed imp when he had a lot of draw but only 2 stinkweeds for dredgers. He was left with one stinkweed, which whiffed on his flashbacked deep analysis. But he peeled his second deep analysis card to draw breakthrough! That put dredgers in his 'yard, activated a cephalid colloseum, and the deal was sealed. I probably misplayed here with hindsight, in that at one point (seriously mana constrained) I tutored for chain of vapor to bounce his layline, but probably should have seen that my only chance was to try to slow him for a couple of turns, tutored up extirpate and extirpated both stinkweeds. Given that I had a second mystical in hand, I only would have needed 2 turns to get an archon into play, for which I am not sure he had an out this game (he didn't side in his chains, apparantly, as he had no idea what hate I was running.

In the finals the dredge player scooped to a guy with white stax (which looked like a bad matchup for this deck, although the big dumb elepheant could save the day) as the latter was going to the GP and needed the buys.

Overal the deck was really good. it is objectively very powerful, and it was interesting to note how many opponents really didn't want this matchup. It is also hugely flexible with all its draw and the selection of fatties that it runs, and can switch quickly from 'combo' to quasi control (or back, more commonly, particularly after boarding). It is also very stable, with just 2 colours, 4 basics, and so much library manipulation. Save for my T4 match, I think I only took one mulligan all day, possibly 2. Good work all you guy's who have worked on pulling this beast together! And thanks from a guy who is just piggy-backing on your hard work!

[fdiv_bug]

Don't forget that if Nature's Claim is bad against Chalice, so is Mystical Tutor to get you this singleton Krosan Grip...

Of course. The hope would be that I could get the tutor off in response; I do run four main, so I see them very frequently. The other problem is, I really do vastly prefer Nature's Claim to Krosan Grip overall, but I wouldn't want to dedicate 6-8 slots in my board for artifact/enchantment removal in order to run both. I could maybe do two of each, but against everything other than Chalice and CounterTop I feel like I'm going to end up wanting the much faster Claim, which means 3-4 of them. :confused:

[RogueMTG]

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report
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Congratz on the finish!

Just one question, in Game 1 of Round 3, the mirror match, he dumped two guys turn 1 and you said you were holding Reanimate in hand, why not just reanimate his Iona on your turn 1?

[Cacks]

Because I am not that clever. Live and learn, eh? But thanks!

[fdiv_bug]

Just one question, in Game 1 of Round 3, the mirror match, he dumped two guys turn 1 and you said you were holding Reanimate in hand, why not just reanimate his Iona on your turn 1?

I've been using Reanimate for a long time -- on again/off again in Eva Green before building reanimator -- and so I'm familiar with it's "any graveyard" perk. However, this still would not have occurred to me, for some reason. Thanks for teaching us all (or teaching us again, in my case). :smile:

[Cacks]

Thanks fdiv_bug - I'm feeling the love! In fact I think I was so pleased about potentially sucker-punching him into (mis)using an exhume that I got distracted from looking at the simple, erm game winning, play!

[Azathoth]

Two days to the GP:

Can we make a list of the best creatures against a specific deck in the first turns?

In my opinion, maybe:

Faeries ==> Empyrial or Leviathan
Goblins ==> Iona on red
Merfolks ==> Leviathan
CounterBalance ==> Leviathan
Ichorid ==> Iona on black or Archon
Ad Nauseam ==> Iona on black
Agro Loam ==> Iona on red
Enchantress ==> Iona on white
Zoo ==> Sphinx of the steel Wind
Affinity ==> Archon
Dark Depths ==> Iona on black or Akroma¿?
Dream Halls ==> Iona on blue
Eva Green ==> Iona on black
Landstill ==> Leviathan
Mirror ==> Iona on black
Canadian ==> Leviathan

Please, Can someone give more ideas?

Thanks and regards!

[DeppChef]

Goblins:
Iona on Red only if they have no Aether Vial at work. With Vials they load the board, tutor for Gempalm Incinerator and smash Iona uncounterable. In that case better reanimate Sphinx and hope for not being faced with 2 unblockable Piledrivers who can still race the Sphinx. After boarding, Thunder Dragon for the win.

Merfolks:
Leviathan only if your sure it´ll do within the next three rounds. Better get Blazing Archon alive which they can´t handle.

Dredge:
Always Blazing Archon. Preboard they have simply nothing against it.

Aggro Loam:
I prefer Sphinx. Iona on red doesn´t protect you from seeing 2 or more Goyfs which will kill you.

[whienot]

Just got back from our weekly event. 35 players make for 5 rounds cut to top 8. I went undefeated splitting the top4.


R1: Combo Elves.......I love mono colored decks. Turn 2 Iona (green) both games.

R2: W/b homebrew. This deck was pretty nasty. Bitterblossom, StP, Vindicate, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Baneslayer, Tombstalker.....
Game 1, I had a turn 2 Inkwell for the win. (I saw him play StP with a Bitterblossom in play during round 1, so i figured Iona may not get there.
Game 2, Most of this game was spent with me trying to play around Wasteland. I fetched basics, only to have them Sinkholed and Vindicated. Luckily I drew into more fetches and (after a Thoughtseize) was able to get out Iona on white and win from there.

R3: Ugbw Counterbalance
Game 1, I mull to 6 and keep a Brainstorm, Entomb, Exhume, Fetch, Swamp, Show and Tell Hand. He plays a turn 2 Counterbalance and I Brainstorm in response. No dice. I should have Entombed in response. Luckily there was no SDT to follow, but had I entombed I believe I would have been able to resolve the Exhume. I cast Entomb in my turn...... which resolved! But when I followed up with Exhume the following turn, he had the Brainstorm to put a 2 drop on top. Trinket Mage found SDT and that was that.

Game 2, I bring in Krosan Grips and Duresses. Turn 1 Swamp, Thoughtseize takes his Daze. (1 FoW in hand, no other blue cards) Lotus Petal, Entomb, Inkwell. Go. He plays Island. Go. I duress, he found a blue card, take Force. Land Reanimate. Go to game 3.

Game 3, Duress picks off the counters, and Inkwell gets there.

Rd4: ID

Rd5: ID

Top 8

Canadian Thresh - Kabal
We playtested this match a good bit toward the end of last year and it was heavily in his favor. Not looking good for me.

G1: He mulls to six, I mull to 5. Don't remember the details, Counterspells and double Goyf are better than me.

G2: I mull to six. Lead with Underground Sea. He wastes, I float black, Entomb. Resolves. Iona to the grave. I draw. Play Island, Brainstorm. Go.
He plays Volcanic Island, go. During my upkeep, I try to Mystical Tutor, but it meets Red Elemental Blast. Draw. Play Bayou, Reanimate. He Dazes, I Daze back. Reanimate resolves. Iona on Blue. He scoops for game 3.

G3: He keeps his 7, I mull to 5.....again. Suck.
He leads with Volcanic Island. I have Marsh Flats, go. End of my turn, he brainstorms, I fetch basic swamp. His turn, he fetches, go. I draw, play Thoughtseize which is responded to with Brainstorm, then Dazed. He plays another Tropical, go. I draw, play Extirpate on his Dazes (I really just wanted to see his hand.) Force, Spell Snare, Ponder, REB, Fetch, Volcanic Island. Pretty good, I'm sitting with Exhume, FoW, S&T, Reanimate, Exhume. He has the Force and the REB for my counter. Great. He draws, plays Volcanic Island, Tarmogoyf, go. I draw a Mystical Tutor. Wonderful, I can bait the red blast. I pass. He plays fetch, pass. During his beginning of End Phase I attempt a Mystical Tutor, he Red Blasts it. I Entomb, Sphinx. I draw and play careful study (just to see if I pull something relevant) then reanimate the Sphinx. Get there.

Top 4 was Survival, Reanimator, White Stax, and Ugbw Counterbalance (my round 3 opponent)

[practical joke]

Two days to the GP:

Can we make a list of the best creatures against a specific deck in the first turns? The list I added also has situational answers if you get into a later game

In my opinion, maybe:

Faeries ==> Empyrial or Leviathan Akroma as well
Goblins ==> Iona on red akroma, sphinx without a vial iona (red)
Merfolks ==> Leviathan iona(blue), sphinx of the steel wind
CounterBalance ==> Leviathan iona (white)
Ichorid ==> Iona on black or Archon
Ad Nauseam ==> Iona on black iona (blue after SB) do not board out your sphinx here
Agro Loam ==> Iona on red preferably akroma or sphinx, they are simply better
Enchantress ==> Iona on white
Zoo ==> Sphinx of the steel Wind iona (white), if naya they play pte, if domain sphinx or akroma
Affinity ==> Archon sphinx of the steel wind, first strike/lifelink ftw
Dark Depths ==> Iona on black or Akroma¿? this is indeed correct
Dream Halls ==> Iona on blue don't board out the sphinx, since it can outrace the progenitus if they show and tell into that one
Eva Green ==> Iona on black akroma will be fine as well
Landstill ==> Leviathan HELL NO! iona (white) beats every landstill deck hands down, except jace 2.0, which will be too slow anyways
Mirror ==> Iona on black there's no I-win card in the mirror, iona (black is good) but so is the empyrial archangel and blazing archon since it will be a standstill and the most creative player or the one with the first opening wins
Canadian ==> Leviathan akroma and sphinx are better since they don'thave pte/stp if I'm not mistaken. Also an iona on their removal color is key
The Rock==> empyrial archangel is soo good here, else iona (white) or inkwell leviathan
Belcher==> depends on the situation iona (red) is game if they can combo with ETW, then get sphinx
Mono-red burn==> iona red
Staxx ==> high likely they will be white staxx or green staxx. if they are Brown staxx I'd go for akroma due to haste
43.land==> inkwell leviathan, occassionally iona(green) or iona (red)
Dreadstill ==> depending on colors, but iona (blue) should be enough
Elfball ==> iona (green) or archon depends on the build/kill
Bant-Aggro==> this is a complete different match from countertop, iona (white)
Trisomy 21/loam-control ==> 2-color removal, suggesting akroma or iona (white)


There will be a lot of random decks as well, most should be mono-color due to the cheap nature. In that case bring the pretty angel


Please, Can someone give more ideas?

Thanks and regards!

I'll be answering tonight for the last time. (approx 14 hours from now) Then I'll be off to Madrid with my reanimate deck.

[Azathoth]

Wow, many many thanks Practical Joke :)... See u in the GP!

[arebennian]

http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/welcome#16

Reanimator FTW!

Practical, that isn't you is it? (i'm guessing not as it isn't your decklist).

[whienot]

practical joke = Robbin Boer, I believe. If so, he made it day 2.

Here's Muller's list:

Main Deck
60 cards

2* Bloodstained Mire
2* Island
4* Polluted Delta
2* Swamp
4* Underground Sea
2* Verdant Catacombs

1* Blazing Archon
1* Empyrial Archangel
2* Inkwell Leviathan
2* Iona, Shield of Emeria
1* Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4* Brainstorm
4* Careful Study
1* Dark Ritual
4* Daze
1* Echoing Truth
4* Entomb
4* Exhume
4* Force of Will
4* Mystical Tutor
4* Reanimate
1* Show and Tell
2* Thoughtseize


Sideboard
1* Animate Dead
1* Chain of Vapor
1* Echoing Truth
1* Hurkyl's Recall
1* Iona, Shield of Emeria
1* Misdirection
2* Perish
1* Show and Tell
3* Spell Pierce
1* Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1* Wipe Away
1* Woodfall Primus

Good job, Andreas.

[deadlock]

Nice to see combo doing so well.
I have two questions regarding the final match, concerning two in play decisions by Andreas Müller:
- Game one: Taking Ponder over Infernal Tutor with the Seize. with "a bunch of Rituals" and Lotus Petal in hand, i would take the Infernal, because i would fear that my opponent goes off directly (what he did). I something wrong with this logic? It a difficult position as David has brainstormed before and coul have hid his best card(s) on top.

- Game two: Forcing SDT and pitching Show and Tell. I see SDT as a card, which increases you win rate as the game progresses, but with Iona and Show and Tell in hand, isnt it better to keep the SaT and counter only the direct combo attempts and instead try to resolve SaT asap if possible? (One concern i am not sure about is the number of lands Andreas had (and ways to find them). If he did not have a reliable way to find the third land i can understand the decision much better.

I am curious as i would have decided otherwise and i want to know if my thought process is way off, i am not expierenced with Reanimator and just apply logic i know from other decks to this one, so dont be too harsh.

[Sims]

Grats to him, but is the maindeck 1of SnT and Dark Ritual worth dropping to 16 lands? I played this today in my local and I honestly don't think i could drop to 16 lands, i was running fairly land light most of the day.

[whienot]

I don't think your thought process is off. I assume he was quite tired and misplays happen. I wouldve taken the Infernal tutor also. Additionally, in game 3, when he mystical'd for Thoughtseize in his upkeep, me might as well had gotten Reanimate, since Iona was already in the grave. I suppose he suspected a bounce in his opponent's hand.

On the land issue, 16 land with 1 Dark Ritual is quite low. But, the deck only 'needs' one or two lands to operate and he did make through 20 rounds.

Edit: @Sims. I've been playing 16 lands for a while now, but I also run 4 Petals and never really have mana problems.

[Sims]

That I can see. You sacrifice a bit of later game consistency for the explosiveness, etc. But yeah, I can't see going to 16 land and not running some form of acceleration to try and speed up my first two turns outside a random dark rit.

[nodahero]

i THINK that when he took the ponder it was because there was an AdNauesm at the top of the library and a Top in play... so it did not really matter. He was basically screwed no matter what he did.

[practical joke]

H, finall got some time to talk about my plays in GP Madrid:

In the ended up in 88th place with a score of 11-5-1:

My list was the following:

3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 swamp
1 island
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacomb
2 marsh flats
1 bloodstained mire
4 lotus petal

4 thougthseize
4 exhume
4 entomb
4 reanimate
3 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 daze
4 careful study
1 echoing truth

3 iona, shield of emeria
1 inkwell leviathan
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 blazing archon

SB:

1 akroma, angel of wrath
3 xantid swarm
1 show and tell
4 extirpate
1 extract
3 nature´s claim
2 engineered explosives


Short story:

round 1: survival Bant : 0-2 his draws were better and I couldn´t get a creature selection this time.
Round 2: mono-red goblins: 0-2, mulligan to 3, mulligan to 5 and still no action. sucks a lot
Round 3: Eureka.dec: 2-0 sphinx goes all the way both games, his show and tell showed a proggy.
Round 4: Black-red goblins: 2-1 Akroma and sphinx go all the way after mulitple weirdings. ( exhume and tutoring exhume ftw)
Round 5: Zoo: 2-0 iona goes all the way both time
Round 6: mono-red burn: 2-0: iona and sphinx go all the way
Round 7 Black-red goblins: 2-1 Akroma and sphinx and multiple exhumes-forces and reanimates make it happen
Round 8: countertop: 2-0 played against a very annoying angry german kid which couldn`t handle my T1 and T2 iona drops
Round 9: black-red goblins: 2-0 lots of akroma`s and sphinx`s again. Wasn`t a good player

( en of day 1 7-2)

Day 2:

Round 10: land with intuition: 2-0 a few counters and inkwell go all the way, extirpate finished it.
round 11: reanimate: 1-1-1: a draw I took care of all his outs in round 3 unlucky draws in second match and we shut down each other´s deck with extract and sadistic.
round 12: home-brew eva-green: 2-0 sphinx took the game twice.
round 13: home-brew elf combo: iona took the game even in Turn 3
Round 14: ANT: 2-1, he won game one. Extract won games 2 and 3.
Round 15: Merfolk: 0-2 couldn`t find a single piece of speed again lyszek
Round 16: dredge: 1-2 both games 2 and 3 my topdecks messed up my games and had to wait 15 turn before I died because I couldn´t find my out ( reanimate, exhume or mystical tutor would have been enough to win = (
Round 17: counterbalane: 0-2, mulligan to 5 twice, no speed. Jan Ruess took the game even if he couldn`t find any speed.



In hindsight I should`ve gone T64, but sometimes bad luck takes.
I did enjoy my 12 games in a row without a loss, I also prove myself that I´m more of a big tournament player than a small tourney player.


I saw the decklist of the winner right before T8. I wonder what match-ups he got, but he did have a lot of lucky draws in his T8.
He plays no mana speed except for a random dark ritual ( which is good under certain circumstances), he played 7 creatures and a show and tell. ( not against that) even though he kept playing empyrial archangel which died everytime and then he topdecked a new one.

I`m quite satisfied with my list even though I had 3 very unlucky rounds. ( 2 losses were deserved, a 3rd could´ve been deserved if not for a mulligan and the othyer 2 were total random crap)

[arebennian]

Big props coming back from a 0-2 Start!

How was Nature's Claim?

Any thoughts on changes to Main Deck/Sideboard?

[practical joke]

Nope, maybe I`ll try to squeeze in a 4th mystical, but I used every card of my SB.
I have used every creature card in my mainboard as well.

I´m satisfied with my result, because it worked well for the occassial hideous screwage. At a big tournament like this you need a bit of luck with you match-ups. I really wonder what the match-ups were for the winner of the Grand Prix but he lucksacked his way through the T8 for sure

[arebennian]

Thanks for that.

Again, congratulations on your result. 88th out of 2200 is nothing to be sneezed at!

[nitewolf9]

I top 4'd the SCG 5k in Richmond yesterday with this deck and have to wonder one thing: why are people running careful study and so many reanimation targets? I ran 3 targets (Iona, Sphinx, and Inkwell), along with mystical tutor + entomb being my only "discard" outlets (I guess thoughtseize counts as well), and the deck ran just fine. I think abusing the power of entomb and making room for more disruption or acceleration (ritual) seems stronger.

[practical joke]

Becasuse relying on only 1 card to win is pretty weak.
Also that way you only leave room to combo out and it's more easy to disrupt.
A list like that works well when you are in an aggressive meta, but it works like crap in a control meta since you will win less counterwars.
Counterbalance isn't fun to play against with a slower list, and graveyard hate becomes a bigger threat.

I've played a ponder/mystical/entomb list and I got beaten a lot by decks like Merfolk/Counterbalance/Chalice aggro and hexmage versions. Actually anything that can be faster than you that way takes you down.


but those are just my experiences for the last few months while playing it like combo without careful study, and I missed them a lot ever since.
If you ask me, I'll never play ponders again.

[andiibooo]

I played in the Richmond 5k with Reanimator. I ended up at 5-3-1 (The 3 losses were to 3 countertop decks packing 7-9 cards of sideboard hate - how do you beat this?), but I noticed that a few lists are running Woodfall Primus. I found this odd because I ran Terastadon is just plain better and can just win the game. I've yet to lose to merfolk since I usually destroy their Vial and Island with Terastodon and they just can't recover while a 9/9 beats them to death.

I had one of my opponents kill my Terastodon with the Elephant tokens and chumpers, so I reanimated it second main phase and just wiped the board again (destroying his last land and two of mine). Then I swung for 15 next turn.

I've also been considering going down to 5 reanimation targets. Should I even bother with Careful Study with 5 targets?

[practical joke]

You could try it out, but from my own experience it'll be a less usefull card if you have to aim for a random creature with only 5 targets you are trying to find.

The odds aren't that good with just 5 targets.

[Oxmo39]

Hey Practical!
Congratz for your nice results at Madrid.
I have two questions about your list :

1) You have finally chosen Archon over Empyrial : what are your thoughts about Archon ?Was it a good choice ?
I am currently wondering if Archon deserves a MD slot or not...Obviously, if I include him it will be in place of Empyrial which is the weakest creature and the only one Archon can be taken in for.

2) Xantid Swarm ? Wow! How was it ? Did you often side it in ? Versus which decks was it useful ?control decks with a lot of countermagics I suppose...)

[practical joke]

Hey Practical!
Congratz for your nice results at Madrid.
I have two questions about your list :

1) You have finally chosen Archon over Empyrial : what are your thoughts about Archon ?Was it a good choice ?
I am currently wondering if Archon deserves a MD slot or not...Obviously, if I include him it will be in place of Empyrial which is the weakest creature and the only one Archon can be taken in for.

2) Xantid Swarm ? Wow! How was it ? Did you often side it in ? Versus which decks was it useful ?control decks with a lot of countermagics I suppose...)

Xantid swarm was a miracle maker in the mirror and against merfolk. I didn't boarded it in against counterbalance because I needed my speed there.
being able to play with all your counters ready for their spells instead of protecting yours is lovely. They will have to deal with it, most decks can't or won't and you can safely take your turn to relax and go off safely.

If you read the report about the finals, you'll see as well that the empyrial saved his day, but he had to reanimate/exhume it multiple times to even get there and he got lucky drawing those. I prefer to avoid that luck and take the game home. I won instantly ones with blazing archon (dredge) and used it a few other times. the turns you can collect with a single blazing archon will beat the damage that an empyrial archangel can handle. ( this change could be good, but then again I also played 3 iona mainboard).
I also had it in play against a progenitus, but 2 turns later he topdecked his second stp. ( I had to take this risk at that time)

[Muppet86]

Playing Xantid swarm is brilliant. Although i think it's also good to board it in against aggro. They won;t expect a card like that. In the mirror it's a brilliant card, like Pratical Joke said.

I personally like the version with 4 rituals mb, like the one that went 4th place in Richmond. I went 5-2 three weeks ago with almost the same list here in Holland. Only lost the Ichorid and Merfolk. Ichorid because he went nuts, and merfolk because i drew horribly.

The version with 4 rituals plays like ANT, but with counterbackup! I usually go t2 or t3 reanimate with a set of ritual/entomb and a reanimate spell. Futhermore, i did not have problems getting creatures in my graveyard. You have 8 effects mb, it's good enough.

My list BTW:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of The Steel Wind
1 Inkwell leviathanl
1 Blazing Archon

// Spells
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Show and Tell
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
3 Daze
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Iona, Shielf of Emeria
2 Show and Tell
4 Pithing Needle
3 Proganda
4 Xantid Swarm

Still doubtfull about the propaganda. I think removal like krosan grip is duable as well.

[Madmaniac21]

If you have a heavy dredge/NO-Pro meta, archon is better.

If not (i.e. zoo, landstill, Bant countertop/survival without Prog), Archangel is better.

The awesomeness of dodging STP/Path cannot be understated. I personally think Archangel is better main, with Archon a slot in the board against dredge.

[whienot]

I still believe Duress is better than Swarm. Duress takes their best non-creature and let's you create your plan of attack. It is better against things like Stax and Combo, which are highly dependent on the first few turns. Neither handle a resolved Crypt or Relic.

Yes, Swarm can be godly, given the right circumstances. But, Duress does the same job usually, is more versatile, and is "easier" to cast being black.

I'll echo Madmaniac21's thoughts on Archon v. Archangel. It's a meta choice. I, too, have Archon in the board.

[jnosrati]

what about the 7/7 dragon with haste that has B/g : regenerate? with one bayou? any thoughts?
seems like it would get swordsed easily, but it is a 7/7 haste...
thoughts?

[Oxmo39]

It will always make his 7 damages at opponent...but then will be removed so easily.
Furthermore, it doesn't improve any MU... Sphinx and Akroma stay definitely better than him...

[jnosrati]

and progenitus/ simic sky swallower?

[XiaN]

Read Progenitus again and Sky Sqallower is just a bad version of the Inkwell leviathan.

[Muppet86]

and progenitus/ simic sky swallower?

Progentius will only work with show and tell, because it says when in comes in to the graveyard, you have to shuffle the card backl into the deck.

SSS is a decent creature, but Inkwell leviathan is better. It hits harder and has islandwalk. The dragon, well, you must have mana open to regenerate it. And like Oxmo said, it does not improve your matchup against something. You sooner want a Sphinx or an Akroma.

[Tzunamii777]

Progentius will only work with show and tell, because it says when in comes in to the graveyard, you have to shuffle the card backl into the deck.

Progen never hits the graveyard fyi If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
Your right, just sayin, as it never even has a chance to be effected by the graveyard, or effects that target the graveyard, whereas if it were shuffled from the GY, shenanigans are possible.

[fdiv_bug]

... whereas if it were shuffled from the GY, shenanigans are possible.
This is correct. Something that shuffles back in with a trigger -- like Dread, for instance -- rather than a replacement effect can be brought back from the yard with instant-speed reanimation, like Makeshift Mannequin, by responding to the trigger. Not that this would make for a good deck, though. :tongue:

[nodahero]

You could makeshift that new Eldrazi guy,,, That would be hilarious although it wouldnt be to powerful in Legacy.... Damn point removal.

[Tacosnape]

@Reanimation targets, quantity, and the debate of Careful Study:

I'm fairly sure there's only two viable options here: You either go very few and don't run Careful Study, or you go more and run Careful Study. Regardless of how you look at this, 5 is the probably the wrong number of Reanimation targets. Here's why.

3: You're running the big three. Iona, Sphinx, Inkwell. Handles 90% of situations and can handle more when you've got Force backup. You might have an Archon or some other big utility guy like Kederekt Leviathan in your board.
4: You're running the big three plus one, presumably either Blazing Archon for those random auto-wins against certain decks, or Empyrial Archangel, because you're one of the people who haven't figured out Empyrial Archangel is awful yet.

6: You're probably now running 2 Ionas, and possibly a second Inkwell or Sphinx, and you're counting on Careful Study outshining Ponder, which it will a good bit of the time.
7: You're running all the toolbox guys. 2 Ionas, a Sphinx, an Inkwell, probably one more of either, Blazing Archon, and maybe something like Sundering Titan or Thunder Dragon for random utility. Careful Study is a house.

What's 5 getting you?

It's worth noting, however, that you should probably always be packing at least 1 Careful Study even when you run as few as three Reanimation targets, for two reasons:

1. You can Mystical Tutor for it when the guy you need in the yard is in your hand.
2. It's never a terrible card to see randomly.

[deadlock]

Good discussion Taco.

Here some thoughts regarding creatures and Careful Study count:
- I really dislike to Study into the unknown (no creature in hand), it reduces my hand size really fast (with Mystical and FoW in the picture).
- Without a good amount of creatures i am inclined to reduce the number of Studys. With 6 creatures i want to try out 3 Studys.
- I agree with always running at least 1 Study.
- Both the GP winning list and practical_joke advocating 4 Studys, so i am hesitate to make any changes (the GP list did run 7 creatures though).

More questions:
- What do people think about: Show and Tell in the maindeck and the total number of Show and Tells between maindeck and board? While there is no yard hate in the first game, it can be good if you have a creature and Mystical in hand with no other business. About the total number, i would always run at least one, but leaning towards 2-3 total (maindeck SnT depends on space).

- What about a single Deep Analysis between maindeck and board? I liked it in the Entomb Hulk deck of Chapin, as it allows you to make use of the second Entomb, after you already placed a creature in the bin.

[konsultant]

I have been at 4x Study with 7x creatures and I have zero intentions of looking back. In fact if I could squeeze an extra slot out of somewhere i'd pack in an 8th creature. Sure careful study isn't always ideal but your opponent has no clue whether or not you care if it resolves. Entomb will draw counter magic nearly every time but i've won from both resolving study because my opponent didn't counter it and because my turn one study drew FOW I was able to Entomb Reanimate turn two freely. Not as relevant but in large events where your opponent doesn't know what you are playing leading with Sea and Careful Study your opponent could easily put you on Ichorid and it's a great way to bait out FOW's. Yes the card disadvantage is relevent but you can dump multiple studys to careful study and you can pitch them to FOW. We need cards to dump so if you don't need study the card still has plenty of uses not to mention the first time you blind study into exactly what you want for the win you will never get rid of the card. Yes the bling study isn't reliable but every possable option is important and sometimes opening study and when you ponder and see 2x creatures everything gets alot easier.

I tried for several events running 4x Show and Tell and 4x Progentius in the SB and having a transformational side board sort of. If my opponents didn't know it was coming it worked pretty well but once my local area caught on it didn't work as good. I had alot of trouble trying to figure out how to board in everything and how much animate stuff or disruption to take out. The idea was solid, perhaps somebody else can figure out the best way to use it. I like show and tell alot but with only 1-2 of any one creature in our deck show and tell didn't seem relaible enough to me, thus the 4x progenitus. Nobody really dropped anything stupid against me off my show and tells but even a goyf or something off it usually meant I lost.

[whienot]

I run 6 guys and 3 Careful Studies to good effect. Like Deadlock, I hate using Study just to dig and only do so if I'm getting too far behind in the match. Using Brainstorm to set it up, or waiting for a creature is preferred. But rarely is it a dead draw. It is at it's worst when you are looking for protection. At that point, you probably need most of what's in your hand and are left with a tough decision on what to keep.

Regarding Show & Tell: I used to run 1 main for reasons given, but have moved it to the board. Game 1, you'd rather be fast as possible and most of the time it was FoW fodder.

I currently run 2 in the side, but have used 3 before. It should be noted that Show and Tell is much better when running Ponder or LDV.

[konsultant]

I've been running 4x Ponder and 4x Study for awhile now. I was running Vault for awhile but it was too much with Mystical alot of times and more times than not Mystical was just far better. Vault sounded alot better in theory when I added careful study and the extra creatures but you never really find a perfect 5 and the life loss becomes very relevant especially if you are using reanimate that game.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, if I may ask, which established decks are y'all's worst matchups? I notice that people are freaking out about their Reanimator matchup left and right around here, so I thought I would go to the source and ask you guys which decks you hope not to play against in a tournament.

Cheers.

[whienot]

Merfolk and Tempo Thresh, when they know you're playing Reanimator. Clock, Stifle, Waste, and free counters. I'm probably the only person that plays against it alot, but R/w Goblins is a terrible matchup.

Counterbalance sucks, but you can usually reanimate before it's active.

[Phoenix Ignition]

@Reanimation targets, quantity, and the debate of Careful Study:

3: You're running the big three. Iona, Sphinx, Inkwell. Handles 90% of situations and can handle more when you've got Force backup. You might have an Archon or some other big utility guy like Kederekt Leviathan in your board.

I'm interested in Kederekt Leviathan, and why you would use him over something like Terastodon? What matchups would you use it and do you think it's a good sideboard card?

Interesting card for EDH though, might have to get one.

[dahcmai]

I could see it for odd stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or some such. Anything you really weren't counting on playing against, but want an out.

[4eak]

[kids spilled water on my keyboard, so I can't make parentheses]

I love Careful Study in this deck [as I do in dredge]. The card disadvantage argument isn't as relevant as many would think. You obviously have to play the card wisely and with appropriate mulligans. The redundancy of the deck, alongside its general need to have either [Creature+Discard effect+Reanimation effect] or [Tutor effect + Reanimation effect] or [Show and Tell + Creature], usually entails that you'll have at least part of the combo and need to dig for the missing pieces. Study digs for your pieces, often letting you pitch duplicate cards you may no longer need, and it also fulfills the discard role in the first method.

In my opinion, Careful Study and Ponder are fighting for the same slots [I've seen lists with both, but I actually prefer to use those other slots in other ways]. Ponder digs more effectively and efficiently, but because you'd basically need to find both your missing piece + a discard effect, Ponder often immobilizes you into the second method. Careful study opens up some versatile strategies.

If you still wanted to leave method 1 open, even with ponder
Ponder->Draw 1->Play Discarder->Discard Creature: is -2 cards
Careful Study->Draw 2->Discard Creature + [Discard Creature or Least useful card]: is -2 cards

The ponder option costs more mana, has more specific requirements, and perhaps you'll also be devoting deckspace to a discarder that you may not have needed to play if you were running Study.

Admittedly, Careful Study is not everyone's favorite card in attrition wars. I'd still wager that the speed and versatility it provides overcomes the few times the card actually amounts to raw card disadvantage. From what I understand, if you have both a Careful Study and an Island in your opening hand, and you are on the play, these are the odds of seeing a creature [including what you draw from Study]:

Number of Reanimation targets in Deck: approximate % chance to have at least one creature to discard to Study
3: 32%
4: 41%
5: 49%
6: 56%
7: 61%
8: 67%

Now, obviously there are many cases where you won't blindly careful study. You will do it from time to time though. Sometimes you won't find it necessary to get a creature into the GY. Perhaps you are digging for protection/disruption, a land, or a reanimation effect.

I think Careful Study gives Mystical Tutor some breathing room [a card which has multiple desirable targets at any given stage of the game], often allowing you to Mystical for FoW or Echoing Truth while still maintaining speed. Otherwise, without Study, when you are usually forced into method 2, you'll commonly be using Mystical tutor for Entomb.

The times where Careful study was just plain card disadvantage is repayed by how much speed and versatility Careful study adds to the deck overall, an acceptable tradeoff in a combo deck which is open to hate and may only have very limited periods of protection. Additionally, as the combo itself has very minimal requirements to play [for example, you don't need a lot of mana sources], card disadvantage is not as problematic; going from 7 cards to 6 is perfectly acceptable when you only needed 3-5 cards to combo.

As a sidenote, how many of you have found yourself keeping hands where you endstep discard down a creature, and then play land->reanimate [technically a fourth method, but it isn't very common, and I'm doubtful it would be recognized by everyone as a viable line of play]? A hand like this perhaps:

Land, Reanimate, Creature, FoW, Blue, maybe a Daze, whatever.




peace,
4eak

[practical joke]

I can't imagine against which decks I haven't done that.
(goblins that went T1 vial, on hand reanimate, akroma.)

Even after sideboarding it could be viable, I did so in round 10 against lands. Draw discard leviathan, go.


About show and tell, I moved it to sideboard since I needed a more aggressive start, show and tell would be to slow mainboard. I boarded it in against counterbalance ( 3-mana is a good slot), anything not heavy discard and black or anything that's incredibly heavy on sideboarding.

[dameus]

I'm interested in Kederekt Leviathan, and why you would use him over something like Terastodon? What matchups would you use it and do you think it's a good sideboard card?

Interesting card for EDH though, might have to get one.

Good against Empty the Warrens (like TES)

[practical joke]

mystical tutor into echoing truth.

I prefer that answer above a whole new creature. ( also Sphinx of the steel wind or blazing archon wins those matches as well)

[nodahero]

As a sidenote, how many of you have found yourself keeping hands where you endstep discard down a creature, and then play land->reanimate [technically a fourth method, but it isn't very common, and I'm doubtful it would be recognized by everyone as a viable line of play]? A hand like this perhaps:

Land, Reanimate, Creature, FoW, Blue, maybe a Daze, whatever.


In regards to a hand like that I think the real question is actually what did your opponent do game 1 or is it game 1? If it is game one and you are on the draw I would go for it; otherwise do you think you will have time to go the "slow" plan? Do you think they brought in artifact hate or something like Leyline or Extirpate (counter proof solutions)? And depending on that what are the "whatevers". Personally I have used that method before and feel it is a legitamate plan.

[Lev]

Hello, I'd like to discuss my list.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [MM] Island
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [TSP] Swamp

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [WWK] Terastodon
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [ST] Thunder Dragon

The manabase is 16 lands, of which are 8 fetchlands, 4 dual lands and 4 basics (2 of each) and 4 Lotus Petal. With 16 lands I still feel like I have all consistency I need, while the Petals add some nice speed and explosivity.

My creatures may seem a little odd, but I always liked 6 at the numbers and I think every one of it has its reasons to be packed maindeck. Iona is obviously, too bad I had to cut the second to make space for the new Terastodon, which I like as an solution to everything as well as random Power 18 to the board, Empyrial is good to prevent being raced by a Goyf when you have Reanimate, Archon is nuts against Merfolk and Dredge, Sphinx houses against Zoo and Sligh. Inkwell against the random removal.dec when you need the fast clock.

As with 6 creatures I like to run the full set of Studies, along with playsets of all the relevant cards. I like to have 10 disruption spells and I also really like Thoughtseize for it gives me information about the opponents hand which can be relevant.

The sideboard consists of many different bounce spells, Chains are the fastest answer to Relic/Crypt/Leyline, Hurkyls is also good against the artifact hate as well as Stompies / Stax, Truth is also good against Dredge, Wipe Away against Counterbalance, Perish rocks against any Bant decks as well as Progenitus, Duress improve my control and combo matchup, Extirpate are good to peel off Forces from my opponents or as gravehate, Show and Tell are good facing hate heavy SBs and Thunder Dragon comes in against Swarmaggro.


Maybe I could be cutting the 8th fetchland for a third Island what might be useful since in Germany's metagame there are plenty of Canadian and Merfolk.

What are your thoughts about my list? Any comments? Thanks :)

[Titan]

Why are so many people running GY hate in the SB?

I can see it for the mirror but this deck is only 5% of the field right now

I've been testing against ichorid and it's just not necessary, blazing archon + counter backup goes a long ways

Extirpate is good post thoughtsieze but other than that I don't see a need for it, we could be playing more counterspells or hate to fight thier hate, stifle is AMAZING against most decks, it stops faerie/relic/crypt and messes with fetchlands in the CB/T matchups

here's my list, yes I'm not running daze, spell pierce has just been better at catching Path/STP, sometimes I wish I ran them both post board but having a lot of answers has been better than having a lot of counters

Reanimator
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx Of The Steel Wind
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Blazing Archon
3 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Spell Pierce

1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
16 Land
60 Cards

Sideboard:
4 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Show And Tell
2 Nature's Claim
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River/Wipe Away
15 Cards

[whienot]

I've been testing against ichorid and it's just not necessary, blazing archon + counter backup goes a long ways

You must not be playing against good Ichorid players. They have Cabal Therapy(s) to make sure their Chain of Vapor resolves and can hardcast Stinkweed Imp to stall you. While its true that they won't always have answers like that, but neither will you always have a counter.

I bring in Extirpate against Merfolk and Tempo Thresh, too. It will strip them of some counter and I get to see their hand guaranteed, which I believe is one of the most important things in those match-ups. While not exactly needed, Extirpate is the nail in the coffin against Lands. The versions with Crucible can still win with Chasm + Nomad Stadium recursion.

[Reagens]

I just started testing this deck myself and I have a question.

When using no acceleration whatsoever (petals, rituals et al) what is generally considered the right amount of lands?
I have 18 (10 fetch, 8 others) for a 2-color manabase but I seem to get flooded from time to time despite running 4-offs brainstorm, ponder and careful study.

Is 17 realistic or do I risk too much problems when confronted with land destruction strategies?

[practical joke]

If you run all those, run a single dark ritual , you will need it against some match-ups.

you should count for about approx 18 mana sources. ( with ponders and brainstorms and studies you'll be fine with that ammount easily)
you can cut it down to 16 lands + ritual, if you go lower you'll be depending a lot on studies/brainstorms/ponders to find more mana sources.
If you play less mana sources your deck becomes mulligan unfriendly.

You only need 1 basic of each, so having doubles makes it fine enough

[Oxmo39]

I personaly run 16 lands without any mana accelaration and I find it perfect : nearly never mulliganing for lack of mana. I also run 4 brainstorms, 4 studies and 2 ponders to help to find the missing land when needed...
I could maybe cut 1 ponder for 1 Drak Ritual but I'm not convinced yet...

Regarding your list : 18 lands + 12 cantrips seems a lot!

[deadlock]

@ whienot could you please post your latest list, i want to compare it the lists of practical joke, konsultant and the gp list.

The responses about the correct number of Careful Studys let me conclude that running 4 with 7 creatures seems to be a ratio which works out quite good for people (konstultant and gp list), while running 4 with only 6 creatures seems still be okay (practical joke).

Number of disruption slots 8 - 12, where Thoughtseize was the first piece which got cut down from the maindeck. Interestingly konstultant runs 4 Ponder instead of the 4 Size. A mix between both could work out too.

Most seem to have moved SnT to the board, which i agree with - no need to discuss it any further. Running a couple in the board can be quite good, especially in the versions with a slightly higher creature count. Running Progenitus on the top of it is not worth it (konsultants result).

Now the hard part, the manabase. Where 18 lands look a bit excessive, it seems to be the minimum of total mana slots people agree on, with the exception of the last poster and the gp list did run 16 + 1 Rit. If one want to go for more consistent land drops and less explosivness via Petal, running the single Rit looks good, as it can be fetched via MT.
The other extreme is joke's build with just 14 lands and 4 Petal. While i think that running Petal is stronger than Rit (in none Buried Alive builds, which look quite dead atm), i dont like the 14 lands. Especially as he seems to struggle against Merfolk and Canadian Thresh the most. If one would go for a middle path, does 16 land + 3 Petal sound reasonable?

Also what about the green splash, is it needed? Personally i like Grip ( also it might be too slow) against CB and other stuff. But i dislike bringing in green cards against tempo decks featuring land destruction. Namely bringing in Swarm against Merfolk seems risky. One has to time fetching bayou right when you want to cast it. It may work out with the Petals, it just does not seem that solid.
Which is another point: this deck may become more popular and more hate will be put in the boards at the same rate. So start looking for consistent and solid strategys over explosivness maybe better in the long run.

This post may not contain much new input, but i think that it is a good effort to focus the discussion on the few things, which are not agreed upon.

[whienot]

@ whienot could you please post your latest list, i want to compare it the lists of practical joke, konsultant and the gp list.

Sure thing.

4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Mystical Tutor

4x Brainstorm
3x Careful Study

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Thoughtseize

3x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1x Flex spot. Currently Duress.

4x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard:
3x Extirpate
2x Duress
2x Krosan Grip
2x Show & Tell
1x Blazing Archon
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Nature's Claim
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Reverent Silence

The list is very similar to Practical Joke's, slightly lighter on disruption with more lands. Like Practical Joke, I moved the lone Show & Tell to the board and just swapped it with a Duress. This could easily become Echoing Truth.

The sideboard is always in flux, as it should. I'm keeping a look out for things like Macabre and Karakas, and pack my Pithing Needles if suspected. In any large event, I would play Perish over Thunder Dragon. My meta tends to have R/w Goblins and the Dragon seems to be a better overall option than Massacre, Infest, and Sickening Dreams.

If I start seeing the mirror, or expect it, Gilded Drake and Coffin Purge are going in.

Regarding the green splash; I've never played without it. Grip has won me many games, especially against Counterbalance. Reverent Silence has just been sitting in my sideboard the last few tourny's I've played in. No one's bringing in Leylines and I haven't been paired with Stax or Enchantress. Claim comes in against Non-U decks along with Chain and Recall.

It's funny you mention, 16 lands and 3 Petals. It is a configuration I am considering, probably adding E. Truth.

And for your weekly tourny anecdote, I recently decked Dredge ftw. I have the quick Archon, for which he has a resolved Stinkweed Imp. He Dredges a few turns, then Therapies and Dread Returns Iona on Black (I hadn't drawn any grave hate yet) So we stare at each other...for a while. The game ends in a flurry of Therapies, hardcast and alt-cast FoW, but double Daze on his last Chain wins the game. Ah, magic.

[Oxmo39]

@deadlock : running 16 lands + 3 petals seems a lot to me. Since we've mostly have put S&T to the board, we only run 5 cards with a 2 cc (exhume + singleton E Truth). The other cards are 1 cc. Furthermore, nature's claim seems to replace krosan grip in sb (a least a 2/1 split).

As I said in my previous post, I don't play mana accelerators anymore. I'll explain that because :
- I playtested and feel good with those 16 lands. Less mulligans due to lack of mana in my starting 7
- I hate going off blindly turn 1. Losing 1 turn but being sure of which fattie I have to entomb is absolutely needed.
- Like Practical said, running less lands makes me more depending on cantrips. that's right but removing petals made free slots for ponder

Anyway, if this deck become more popular and that targeted reanimator-hate appears, explosiveness will become more necessary indeed. you're totally right about that!

@ green splash : i've always felt it necessary. Nature's claim gives us more versatility.
Green can also bring us other SB solutions like Reverent's silence or Xantid Swarm which seems worth testing ...

[deadlock]

I am just starting with the deck, so i can speak more or less from other decks expierence / theoreticall standpoint only.
The thought behind 16 land + 3 petal was:
- I want to run petal, but to make it worthwhile it had to be 3 at least, or else it would be too random.
- Between the two extremse of 14 land and 18 land - 16 seemed to be a sweet spot.
- 19 total mana sources are to top end, but i dont think its excessive. I played quite a lot with and against tempo decks and just running 16 lands seems to be a way to get screwed against these heavily. Also having a couple of basics in these 16 helps really, do you think running 2 Island, 2 Swamp is worth it or does it screw the deck too much in other situations?
- One advantage i see is, that Petals allow you to be fast enough before certain hate even comes online. E.g. Counterbalance or some other nasty enchantment / artifact.



Anyway, if this deck become more popular and that targeted reanimator-hate appears, explosiveness will become more necessary indeed. you're totally right about that!
Slight misunderstanding here, my conclusion was that the deck should look for more consistency, but on second thought i see both school coexist similiar to the two versions of Dredge - the more explosive LED version and the one which aims for a little more consistency with Tireless Tribe and i think Careful Study.

Two more people who like the green splash, interesting .
Also whats interesting is that many seem to like quite a couple of Extirpates. Running one seems completly reasonable, as it can be tutored and be a bomb against certain decks. I am mentioning this, because i know that Extirpate is quite disliked and called bad in other threads. I wonder what makes better in here (meaning running more than one)? Personally i dont know, i can see that it can come handy to handle some hate or key cards, but only if you aim for a long game, so that the removal becomes significant. Which i dont understand, as this deck wants to win fast in most cases, no? Practical_joke brought up good uses for the card, especially against ANT, but i wanted to make sure that it really deserves the ~3 slots in the board. Also the GP list didnt run any at all.

EDIT: Still no opinion on Deep Analysis post board, to help in the attrition wars? It can be searched by Entomb and ditches to Careful Study. The lose of life may be significant, but you dont bring it in against aggro anyways.

[raptorcardz]

Played Reanimator today. I got wrecked. Leyline of the void = I'm fucked even with bounce.. Went 1-3. Shoulda 0-2 dropped.

[Oxmo39]

That's very difficult to find the good ratio of basic lands...it is really meta-depending I guess.
Usually having 2 lands in play (one basic of each) is enough. Having a stifled fetch is really painful but those decks don't have a fast clock, that generally gives enough time to find another land...
I won't go with 4 basics land, that seems too much. I think you'll be screwed more than you'd be helped. I'd rather then play more fetch-lands.

For the moment I have two swamps and one island in my build. But I receive my 4th undergroud sea next week and I think i will bring it in in place of one swamp...
My meta doesn't see many tempodecks so that's maybe why I don't see the interest of bringing in more basics. I don't know what about yours...

{your analysis with dredge deck looks good since i am a LEDless dredge player :wink: }

@raptorcardz : do you have more explanations ?
even if you face multiples Leyline, you can Echoing Truth EOT and then go for Entomb...
You also have Show&Tell and Reverent's silence to play around those...

[4eak]

I'm surprised by the number of people running Lotus petal (or more than 1 Dark Ritual even). In most situations, Land will be just as fast. Sure, there are cases where Lotus petal is faster. Here are examples of times where Lotus petal lets you go off a full turn earlier than if you played a land in the slot instead:


T1: Lotus Petal, Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Reanimate
T1: Petal, Petal, Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Exhume
T1: Land, Mystical Tutor->Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Land, Petal, Careful Study/Entomb, Exhume
T1: EndStep Discard down; T2: Land, Petal, Exhume
T1: Petal, Petal, Petal, Petal, Land, Entomb, Brainstorm->Brainstorm, Brainstorm->Exhume, Exhume (have to dig down 4 cards to find your Exhume...Lulz)

Lotus Petal is balls to the wall, and I'm not convinced we should overextend (even minimally). The card disadvantage just hasn't been worth the small boost of tempo in niche situations. I think the speed you get just isn't impressive. You can run a more resilient and reusable manabase just going pure lands.

The majority of the time, your combo is just fine like this:

T1: Land, Mystical->Entomb/Careful Study/Reanimate; T2: Land, Careful Study/Entomb, Reanimate
T1: Land, Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Reanimate
T1: Land, Careful Study/Entomb; T2: Land, Exhume


In the majority of cases, I prefer going off turn 2! I want the information about what my opponent is playing. I need to know which silverbullet I need. The deck desperately wants to have information about the opponent, and turn 1 combos rarely offer that resource. But, by waiting a single turn, you gain a lot of info (imperfect information is none-the-less very valuable to a knowledgeable Legacy player), and perhaps even slow down enough to sculpt your hand or play a temporary control-role against some strong opposing hands.

The argument might be that turn 2 is the fundamental factor, against CB/Chalice, etc, but I think effective use of card selection and 1cc disrupters (Thoughtseize, Duress, Spell Pierce) alongside a green splash for sideboard Grip/Claim performs better than relying on the handful of cases where Lotus petal is actually faster than just running plain land.

I think having 18 lands is really valuable against decks which abuse Wasteland heavily. Sometimes you might feel mana-flooded, but Careful Study and Brainstorm are excellent at converting land into gas. When you are facing mulligans or mana-denial, having 18 lands will become more valuable. Some of you drop really low on mana sources and rely on cantripping to find manasources. You do know there is a ceiling to how much land/functions you can take out for cantrips, right?

---------------

As for running the second Island and Swamp, I suggest just splashing with Bayou/Tropical Island. You should still have 6-7 fetches for each Basic color, so the odds aren't much lower for getting the basic when you want it. However, you can very, very easily open up the 3rd color. I adore the green splash in this deck. You obviously can play without it, using Stifle/Bounce. I still prefer splashing for green when I'm facing Counterbalance or prison--I prefer permanently removing hate. Going end step Wipe Away on a Counterbalance, and then having your opponent use permission to control your single turn of freedom really sucks. As for Xantid Swarm, I have mixed feelings; but splashing green is worth it just for access to Grip/Claim/Reverent Silence. Use your Mystical tutors on the best silverbullets available.




peace,
4eak

[rodgon666]

wow. so people still play my deck... but it seems like always the thread is all over the place. lol

im very happy to see that alot of people are placing with the deck though.

Entomb does make the deck ridiculously faster ( i havent played in a bout a year and a half. lol ), but i still hold strong to the fact you dont need countermagic in an aggro based decklist.

Discard is also not good ( if you want explanations why, read the first two pages of the thread.)

and i also have no idea why people dont play Titan anymore, it single handedly ruins decks like coutertop if played off a show and tell, all their lands go away if they kill it. thus no engine.

but hey... what do i know... i mean i only had the most extensive testing done with this deck and evolved it to where it was tournament worthy. lol

[4eak]

@ rodgon666


i still hold strong to the fact you dont need countermagic in an aggro based decklist.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'aggro based decklist'. I do know that versions using Oona's Prowler, Putrid Imp are dead; these cards have no place in a deck which revolves around Entomb and Mystical Tutor. The past year and half that you've not played has also been the time that we've seen the birth of some of the strongest reanimation targets, which in my opinion, are really more defensive than aggressive.

You really do need permission in this deck though. There were several preconditions to this deck's emerging viability in the past year, one of them is the inclusion of a permission suite. The others include Entomb's unbanning, the inclusion of Mystical Tutor (speed and versatility), having creatures actually worth reanimating, and by extension, we finally have an effective toolbox.

FoW/Daze in particular allow the deck to push through the combo on turns 2 and 3 with surprising consistency, even against decks which sport their own permission (which many competitive decks do play). The tempo permission suite is also a very necessary defensive tool, as we need countermagic to combat opposing combos, answers to our combo (board control, hand control, GY-hate, and opposing stack control like Chalice/CB).


and i also have no idea why people dont play Titan anymore, it single handedly ruins decks like coutertop if played off a show and tell, all their lands go away if they kill it. thus no engine.

I love Sundering Titan, but I think it isn't a very versatile card in the end. He's disruptive, but also easy enough to answer and recover from. I think there are better answers to aggro-control decks. In the majority of cases, I very much prefer shroud (Inkwell Leviathan or Empyrial Archangel) or Iona, which can lock them out in a much stronger sense.




peace,
4eak

[arebennian]

Lotus Petal is balls to the wall, and I'm not convinced we should overextend (even minimally). The card disadvantage just hasn't been worth the small boost of tempo in niche situations. I think the speed you get just isn't impressive. You can run a more resilient and reusable manabase just going pure lands.

---------------

As for running the second Island and Swamp, I suggest just splashing with Bayou/Tropical Island. You should still have 6-7 fetches for each Basic color, so the odds aren't much lower for getting the basic when you want it. However, you can very, very easily open up the 3rd color. I adore the green splash in this deck. You obviously can play without it, using Stifle/Bounce. I still prefer splashing for green when I'm facing Counterbalance or prison--I prefer permanently removing hate. Going end step Wipe Away on a Counterbalance, and then having your opponent use permission to control your single turn of freedom really sucks. As for Xantid Swarm, I have mixed feelings; but splashing green is worth it just for access to Grip/Claim/Reverent Silence. Use your Mystical tutors on the best silverbullets available.

peace,
4eak

From the posts I've read Practical write, he uses the Petal as a 3 colour land as much as he uses it as an accelerator. I wouldn't recommend going so low on land myself, but the fact that it hinders your opponent keeping you off your 3rd colour (fetches and basics or not) is a big deal and as such it can warrent inclusion.

BTW, do you have a list? Have not seen it up here.

[4eak]

From the posts I've read Practical write, he uses the Petal as a 3 colour land as much as he uses it as an accelerator. I wouldn't recommend going so low on land myself, but the fact that it hinders your opponent keeping you off your 3rd colour (fetches and basics or not) is a big deal and as such it can warrent inclusion

Honestly, I don't need my 3rd color so much against tempo decks which are capable of keeping me off my 3rd color. Even in the tempo match, I prefer Lands to petals though. In fact, I moved up to 18 land because of the tempo match (which, in my opinion, is a difficult match). You often need several attempts against tempo thresh for a successful combo, and Land gives you that opportunity.

Which brings me to another point, but slightly off-topic: one of my favorite aspects of Reanimator combo is that you can very easily break the combo into pieces and play them over several turns (many combo decks can't do this), and secondly that top decks, even after a depleted hand or attrition war remain deadly throughout the game. I also appreciate how well the deck can play around GY-hate.


BTW, do you have a list? Have not seen it up here.

// Lands -- 18
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [R] Bayou
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures -- 6
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Reanimation Effects -- 8
4 Exhume
4 [FNM] Reanimate

[U]// Card Selection -- 16
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
4 [BD] Brainstorm

// Permission, Disruption, Answers -- 12
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle


It may look redundant (to some people) to have both Empyrial Archangel and Blazing Archon in the main. I've seen some people moving away from Emp-Archangel, but I think this is a mistake. I honestly use these two reanimation targets in very different situations. Archon is obviously insane against so many decks, like Merfolk and Dredge, which can almost never answer them in the main (and often not after siding either). Archon gives you a shot against a horde of creatures, particularly those which are hitting a threshold of alpha-strike damage on the board, forcing you into a defensive mode (and if they run answers to it, you hope they don't have it or you counter/seize them), but I've found it lacking against aggro-control decks which very likely have an answer to Archon while also having enough gas to finish you if you go for the normal defensive cards (Iona, Inkwell). Empyrial Angel is an aggro-control slayer. It fits very nicely into those situations where Reanimate + FoW + Fetches + opposing creature beats/burn put you at a low life total, you assume your opponent can answer your creature (StP?), and they've got just enough gas on the board/in-hand to finish you before your creature could finish them. For example, if my opponent has 19 life, and a 4/5 Goyf in play, perhaps an StP or Burn in hand, and I'm going to be at roughly 8 life after a Reanimate, I can't afford to reanimate and swing with a Inkwell. I need a defensive out, which can't be Sphinx because of StP, and Emp-Archangel is the straight pimp in those situations--and, yes, you will face removal/burn + creatures at precarious life totals in this format. You don't have to risk having Archon answered if they don't have an alpha-strike force on the table and rather a more reasonable amount of damage will be expected each turn (still lethal over several turns while you were at low-life, but not enough to kill Emp-Archangel).

I have considered going to 2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind. The card gets you out of unforeseen tight spots, and it is particularly good in attrition battles. Very few aggro decks can keep up with the 12-18 life swing (including vigilance defense) per round of turns. Like Emp-Angel, it plays a strong defensive role against opposing aggro while still allowing you to attack.

Echoing truth has been absolutely awesome in the main. It makes all the clutch plays and gives us our outs in game 1.

I'm really impressed with Thoughtseizes, but sadly, I don't have room for the 4th. I usually want to know my opponent's hand before selecting which silverbullet to drop on the battlefield. The fact that it can hit creatures has mattered against opposing hands and for dumping my own targets. I have to say, in most cases, I prefer Thoughtseize to Spell pierce, which is why Seize is main. Spell pierce is reactive, and soaks up tempo when unused (as you leave yourself untapped). Thoughtseize's proactive approach doesn't waste tempo though. Admittedly, Thoughtseize can be played around, through Brainstorm and floating with SDT, and essentially in topdeck wars, spells will be cast before you have the chance to seize it in many cases. Spell pierce often becomes just as useless at this stage though, as smart players can effectively play around Spell pierce in the mid and late game. Against heavy burn, some tempo decks, or Storm, Spell Pierce quickly becomes a better pick (so I do have it in the sideboard).

Also noteworthy, Show and Tell remains in the side. There have been game 1's where Show and Tell was useful, but more often than not, I ended up pitching to Force, Brainstorm/Careful Studying it away, wishing I had the 3 mana/a creature in hand/it was a different card. It is particularly good in slower matches, attrition battles, and for avoiding GY hate; I think it definitely merits at least a sideboard slot or two.

Extract has been fantastic against non-red (Burning Wish) Storm decks and even NoProg. This is a rough matchup for us (even with our disruption), and every little bit helps.

I highly suggest a 2/1 split on Grip/Claim. Claim is fantastic because it is so fucking cheap, but it sucks against Chalice and CB, which are very nicely answered by Grip. Reverent silence is a nod to both Leyline and enchantment based prisons -- it fits in beautifully with the mana-curve (free), letting you go off on the same turn as you cast it.

Perish has been stronger than I thought it would be. If you haven't tested it already, I suggest it. It has been quite nice against a surprising number of decks.

Terastadon is sided simply because I think the card largely sucks in the main. Echoing truth is elegant and doesn't require nearly the same investment, and almost always performs just as well. In many cases, the permanents which are problematic are really preventing me going off in the first place, which makes Terastadon a waste in some cases. It is still a nod to random.stuff which hasn't been anticipated.

Stifle is also for the random stuff. Hexmage combo, etc. As weird as it sounds, I may actually switch to Trickbind here -- namely because Mystical Tutor (the usual way of finding singletons) gives away too much information. Split second helps break the information symmetry of Mystical tutor.





peace,
4eak

[raptorcardz]

That's very difficult to find the good ratio of basic lands...it is really meta-depending I guess.
Usually having 2 lands in play (one basic of each) is enough. Having a stifled fetch is really painful but those decks don't have a fast clock, that generally gives enough time to find another land...
I won't go with 4 basics land, that seems too much. I think you'll be screwed more than you'd be helped. I'd rather then play more fetch-lands.

For the moment I have two swamps and one island in my build. But I receive my 4th undergroud sea next week and I think i will bring it in in place of one swamp...
My meta doesn't see many tempodecks so that's maybe why I don't see the interest of bringing in more basics. I don't know what about yours...

{your analysis with dredge deck looks good since i am a LEDless dredge player :wink: }

@raptorcardz : do you have more explanations ?
even if you face multiples Leyline, you can Echoing Truth EOT and then go for Entomb...
You also have Show&Tell and Reverent's silence to play around those...

One person was running 4 leyline and 3 extirpate SB. Spellstutter Sprite maindeck is incredibly annoying as well. I never drew echoing truth. Also a few counters and I am wrecked. Too many blue decks in my meta for me to be playing this deck I think.

[practical joke]

That's why I have xantid swarms in my SB, they are so good!

[Davetradint]

I'm trying a list which is very similar to 4eak's one, but playing only 16 lands and adding a single ritual and a 7th critter.
I talk to ppl from many different countries (with differnt metas) and some of them love empyrial and others hate it. Should I play it over Sundering Titan?

Has anyone experience with EE in their Side? Was it useful?

I'm giving a try to this list with 7 critters and 4x Careful Study. Would a 3 critter list be better? What do you guys think?

[practical joke]

a 3 critter list is much slower than a 7 critter list since it has to rely on entomb only.
It also spend the first 1-2 turn to cantrip, this version is more combo related than based on speed.

I have played EE in sideboard and it works fine against the decks you will use them.

EE is good against: chalice, zoo, crypts, elfball ( yes I played against it on Day 2), counterbalance ( even though I never board it in, it's still very possible to trick them with an EE especially for the slower lists this could be a decent answer as well), dreadnaughts and numerous other decks.

I love empyrial archangel, but in the current meta and with running goyfs everywhere, she simply wasn't able to survive.
When I won the dutch legacy nationals she won about 50% of my games, not much later she got trampled to death everywhere I summoned her.
This is due to the rise of BANT-aggro and merfolk in my area and also the rock decks have gotten a bit faster when it comes to dealing 8 pounts of damage.

I think a 7 critter list ( or 6) is better than a 3 critter one, since it relies on a very few choises and only on entomb and thoughtseize as a discard outlet. careful study isn't a very good card for that version, since show and tell is a better one-off than careful study.

[deadlock]

Okay i try to adress a couple of things here. Beforehand i looks like this deck has come to a point where the core list is quite agreed on and we are fideling on details only, which is a good thing!

First of 4eak's view on the manabase and his list.
- I like his idea of not running fast mana at all to decrease card disadvantage and increase consistency (foremost against mana denial decks).

- As 18 lands looks slightly too high, i think about using 17 and 1-2 Ponder in a none speed (no Petal) version.

- Not sure about how needed the single Ritual is, seemed to be different opinions on this matter.

- I think 3 Mysticals are enough for the said reasons, Ponder looks a little bit better at that point. Although 4 Mystical is really nice with a silver bullet board.

- Dont know if i like to run additional fatties in the board. At most one, because i think the bigger problem after boarding is to put a critter into play in the first place. If yes, Akroma, Thunder Dragon, Terastodon and an additional Iona are the prefered choices.

- About the ones who run Durress, before adding any i strongly recommend maxing the number of Seize. The biggest is Faerie Macabre, which is no fun - especially as it seems to be added to the maindeck even recently (this could be a temporary thing though, dont know). But if it starts to see increased play, increasing the number of Stifles could be good.

- About Ponder in general, i wouldnt go as far as running 4 Ponder because this would go to the cost of other aspects of the deck, most likely disruption. And i like to have at least 2 Thoughtseize (with FoW and Daze maxed out ofc). As said replacing the 18th land with two Ponder looks quite appealing.

- Somehow i think it is really a big difference of running 7 creatures opposed to the 6 (with 4 Studys!) - in other words, that 7 creatures make Study much better and just running 6 lets Study to be supoptimal at times. I dont know where this comes from :eyebrow:

[4eak]

I think 3 Mysticals are enough for the said reasons, Ponder looks a little bit better at that point. Although 4 Mystical is really nice with a silver bullet board.

I vociferously disagree. It is unacceptable to lose the raw flexibility and speed provided by Mystical tutor (even the 4th one). Mystical tutor, like Entomb, are auto-4's. Even without a toolbox sideboard, Mystical tutor is arguably the strongest card in the deck.

Playing 4 mystical tutors makes it so that you are playing 4 more of the any given missing piece you need. Mystical tutor makes this deck consistent, and at the same time, gives it flexibility. Mystical chains into Entomb nicely. Mystical tutor let's you grab Exhume when you are low on life or Reanimate when you are tight on mana. Mystical tutor picks up FoW or Thoughtseize when you need protection/disruption. Mystical tutor grabs your Echoing truth or Show and Tell. Games 2 and 3 it obviously shines even more.

This is a combo deck with which you should mulligan very aggressively--that's a strong sign that Mystical tutor's card disadvantage cost is easily worth the ability to tutor for the exact card you need at the moment.


About the ones who run Durress, before adding any i strongly recommend maxing the number of Seize. The biggest is Faerie Macabre, which is no fun - especially as it seems to be added to the maindeck even recently (this could be a temporary thing though, dont know). But if it starts to see increased play, increasing the number of Stifles could be good.

Agreed. After testing against decks packing 3-4 Faerie Macabre I'm actually dropping some Spell pierces for the additional Stifles for now. Also, smart players have been hating Dredge (and some continue the trend in the case of Reanimator) with diversified GY-hate packages, e.g. [1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Faerie, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon]. Against the unknown, I board both a single Stifle and Nature's Claim in games 2 and 3. Both cards usually do the same thing (as Crypt/Relic are the most common), but there are corner cases where one is clearly better than the other. I expect to see those corner cases more often.


Somehow i think it is really a big difference of running 7 creatures opposed to the 6 (with 4 Studys!) - in other words, that 7 creatures make Study much better and just running 6 lets Study to be supoptimal at times. I dont know where this comes from

It is actually pretty difficult to "feel" the difference between 6 and 7 here. You're talking about a few percentage points. It isn't so easy to gauge, as Brainstorm makes Careful Study a stronger card. For those who want to diversify their reanimation toolbox though, I can easily understand the 7th. For others though, I think it might be worth testing Ponder in the place of this 7th creature. Ponder can often grab a creature/entomb/mystical tutor (which will all function appropriately), and remains even more versatile than a creature stuck in your hands when you don't have a Careful study (which is the case you'll see more often than not in opening hands that have a creature in them).




peace,
4eak

[troopatroop]

What's the best Sideboarding plan against Merfolk? I ask, because I played against it three times in a recent tournament, and didn't do very well. There also seemed to be a tremendous amount of Merfolk at the tournament in general, and I'm wondering if this is the best Reanimator deck to fight against that. Game one is a little better than even with U/B, but games 2 and 3 were a nightmare. Tormod's Crypt in conjunction with their other disruption was deadly, although Show and Tell saved me a few times. I had a Waterfront Bouncer vialed in EOT against me that bounced my Blazing Archon, which really destroyed me. LOA was also pivotal in racing my Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and I'm wondering if a switch to Mono-Black would yield better results against the fish. Sure you lose FOW and Daze, but you gain Unmask and Thoughtseize. You're no longer Wastelandable or Islandwalkable, and Dark Ritual is very fast.

In Blue, you gain Mystical Tutor and Careful Study. These are very important cards, but they're far from perfect imo. Often times I would blindly Careful Study, because I had to try and find the win. Maybe I just wasn't lucky enough, but after mulligans you take what you can get. I was often under pressure from my opponent and I drew no creatures. This hurts so much, because outside of Entomb, Careful Study is the only way to bin creatures (apart from discarding down from 8, which takes too long usually). It also leaves you very vulnerable to Crypt and Relic, because after you've gotten 2 for1ed, you then need to find another Study + Creatures or Entomb. I guess Mystical Tutor helps in this, but it also puts you a card down and if they have a counter you're hosed.

In order to play just Black, you'd need to replace Careful Study, the logical choice being Putrid Imp. You still need to have a creature to pitch, which sucks, but it's not much worse than Study. He also has the benefit of sticking around after Crypt affects, making it easier to recover. He also pitches to Cabal Therapy, which I'd probably play, and blocks. Buried Alive is a card I'd like to see more discussion about. Granted, it's slow. 3 mana is alot for a sorcery speed setup spell, but it's also a certain thing. Reliability is something only Entomb gives us, and there were many points in the tournament that I wished I was playing this card. I didn't need more Brainstorms and Careful Study. I needed guaranteed creatures in the graveyard. In conjunction with Dark Ritual, I think Buried Alive is probably good enough.

Right now the deck runs alot of blue. 4 Fow, Brainstorm, Careful Study, Daze, and X Ponder and Mystical Tutor. Theoretically there are some direct functional alternatives. Unmask for FOW and Putrid Imp for Careful Study. Brainstorm and Ponder are tricky, because they double as every other card in the deck. The only way to replace this is to add in more redundancy, with additional Disruption (Thoughtseize/Therapy), Animation (Animate Dead), and Binning effects (Buried Alive). What you then have, is a deck very similar deck to this one, without the added power of the best blue cards. While I understand that this weakens my matchups against some other decks, What if my goal is just to beat Merfolk?

[Rune]

When you go Monoblack the most important thing you lose is the ability to play around hate. You can't put creatures into play with Show and Tell and you can't bounce hate. A monoblack deck would just scoop to Leyline, but if your only goal is to beat Merfolk then it's probably better.

I think I'm also leaning towards a build that is centered more around black, though. So far I have been very unimpressed by the Dazes, and I have been wanting to just replace them with 4x Duress so I'd be playing 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Duress, 4x Dark Ritual.

Am I the only one who thinks that more discard effects > Daze in this deck?

[troopatroop]

I should have mentioned, that there's little reason not to splash green in Mono-Black. You get Krosan Grip, which is important at that point. I also think that black discard in conjunction with Dark Ritual is what this deck needs. I was playing Fow, Daze, and Spell Pierce main, and it was just too reactive. I don't think this deck needs to bother with that much protection, as it was often all I had to play. I think it should focus more on speed.

What is everyones opinion on Unmask? Just as good as Force of Will?

[4eak]

@ troopatroop

10 posts up on this page, I gave reasons (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-%5BDeck%5D-B-U-Reanimator&p=437495&viewfull=1#post437495) I thought this deck has become viable.

The deck was never viable as mono black, and I doubt it will ever be in the same league as U/B shells. The deck has seen more results in the past 6 months than in the 4 years previous to it; I think the continued use of blue is a part of that change in viability. This is not a new archetype either, every johnny has built this deck, and it has failed until Iona and Entomb, in conjunction with a blue shell, brought the deck to life (puns, ftw).

Mono black reanimator is actually slower and less consistent than U/B in my experience. The card selection alone makes blue worthwhile. Even if you didn't run permission, you should still play blue for the selection. That said, I think it would be madness not to be play the blue permission shell. Black really doesn't have serious analogues. Blue will always be the king of control/disruption; discard effects will never usurp it, although I think discard is a very strong complement to the blue control elements in this case.


I was playing Fow, Daze, and Spell Pierce main, and it was just too reactive.

I really didn't care for Spell pierce in the main (and only sided it in a few matchups). FoW/Daze are substantially stronger because they are free. I think 'reactive', which sounds like you are sitting in the control role, doesn't really encompass how the cards very often function. In most cases, FoW/Daze are a reaction to your opponent's reaction to your proactive offense, not draw go. You shouldn't be sitting in the control role very long or at all in most cases. FoW/Daze push your combo pieces through. Of course, it is capable making defensive plays against your opponent, stopping them from landing a piece of hate or a bomb. FoW/Daze buy you tempo. You'll always be one-hate piece ahead or one mana ahead of your opponent. It makes your early game strength phenomenal.


Merfolk
They are the predators. You have to bite the bullet and accept that you are the prey of merfolk here. Merfolk is a rough matchup. I've found it winnable, although not necessarily favorable. It also depends on the flavor you face. Those splashing white are more difficult, and those with uncommon tech like Waterfront bouncer (at least I don't see this often) can be more difficult as well.

If you think splashing for Green isn't a big deal, which entails a fetch/duals manabase, then you shouldn't find the blue splash to be problematic either. Going mono-black or dropping blue from the deck to avoid LoA is like shooting a hole in your foot to avoid stepping in a pile of shiz. The stability that blue brings to a mana-base alone easily overwhelms the cost of facing Islandwalk from LoA, which you'll only see in roughly half the time against Merfolk and nowhere else. I find my permission works overtime for me here as well. That said, I think there are ways to combat it.


Run more land -- seriously
Xantid Swarm
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Sickening Dreams



@ kikoo


Am I the only one who thinks that more discard effects > Daze in this deck?
If you intend on going off on turn 4 or later, yeah. If you want to explode early and protect while tapped out, Daze is simply much better. Many decks might not be able to afford the long-term tempo losses incurred by returning a land to their hand; but this deck can. We aren't concerned about long-term tempo, and we don't run a lot of lands in the first place, so we'll often be in no worse position a turn later. I can see dropping down to 3 Dazes though.




peace,
4eak

[Wess]

Blue is essential for this deck, the counter shell is what makes the combo so good, especially with Rize of Eldrazi, casting a turn 1 9/9 unblockable Eldrazi with annihilate 3 with Force and Daze protection:eek:

[AngryTroll]

Question: In lists with Ritual, why aren't people running Top over Ponder?

I've been playing around with 17 Land, 3 Ritual, 3 Top, 4 creatures, 0 Careful Study, 0 Ponder for a while, and I'm curious to hear what other people think about this. Top can be played (and activated) alongside an Entomb or Thoughtseize on turn one; it's also very good with Entomb, and it's amazing with Mystical Tutor. Rituals are obviously situationally amazing with Entomb and Reanimate/Exhume, and adding Top increases the number of awesome turn one plays the deck can have.

Ponder increases consistency in the first few turns (instead of the midgame) and adds to the blue count for Force of Will. Running more lands over Ritual makes Top less explosive, but makes the deck more consistent than the land-light builds.

So, a set of coupled questions: Top or Ponder? How many lands and Rituals should you run?

[arebennian]

+ One in Ponder's favour
It's blue.
In a deck that wants to Forceofwill through it's combo in the first few turns, having blue cards in hand early is essential.

[practical joke]

SDT won't be really active untill T3, since you really want to spend your mana on action on T2 for sure.
Top becomes active the moment you don't really need it anymore and makes your deck slow as hell.

I've played against the mirror in Madrid and he played tops, ponder and a 3 creature list. Besides it being the mirror which is slow as hell, he had no action in the early turns unless his hand was good. SDT is a very good card, but it's too slow for a deck with this speed.
Ponder is active on T1, while top for sure isn't.

[4eak]

In cases where you are willing to replace Ponder with SDT, you automatically should be choosing other cards for the deck which belong to a slower strategy. SDT is a longterm card, not a short term one. Additionally, while it can be played off Dark Ritual, most of the time you won't have a ritual. The Land-base is always what supports SDT. And, even with an 18-land-base, SDT is too costly a manasink in a deck whose current incarnations arguably play the second lowest average mana spent per game in Legacy (Dredge takes the title). If you don't plan on fighting in the midgame (and most reanimator builds don't imho), then SDT doesn't have a place in the current versions of the deck.

Let me also say I'm not against a slower version of the deck; I think it would need to be built a bit differently though. While Dark ritual has no place in a Reanimator deck using SDT-- as the former pushes for a pure combo role and the latter a more control-based role (only one deck I know absolute should play both, and Doomsday is a very unique card), we could easily find other control cards which work well with SDT. If you are willing to play a slower game, and you will be using SDT in a blue control shell, why not play Counterbalance?

Personally, I would opt out of Countertop (and also SDT in general) because I think we can maximize the value of Daze, Thoughtseize, FoW and the raw value of our silverbullets by comboing in the early game--if the choice is between Ponder or SDT (and you refuse to play Careful Study), then Ponder is the correct choice.


@ practical joke

I thought something you said in Di's report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16911-%5BReport%5D-I-play-Reanimator-Therefore-I-R-Winnar-2nd-out-of-106-in-Vestal&p=439884&viewfull=1#post439884)thread was worth repeating here:


On the draw, opponents have a very important advantage of T1 land and be able to set-up hate at that moment.

As he said, he plays an aggressive list, you really want to drop something T2. If they go land,crypt, goblin lackey, go. You feel screwed.
Also that first land can also mean, daze, thoughtseize, duress and other cards that you have hardly no response to since.
1. brainstorms won't work
2. dazes are of no use
3. Force of Will is too costly to spend on a single discard in some matches. ( and with some hands it's the 1 thing you want to force)


Also your own thoughtseizes have less chance to hit something, due to them being able to cast brainstorm or already dropped a threat.

I agree, and I want to find a better solution. I find my game 2's (assuming I'm on the draw) to be more difficult. I've been trying to decide how to improve game 2 on the draw, assuming the usual hate. Mystical tutor, Stifle, and a Green splash goes a long way; multiple discard/reanimation attempts often goes the distance; and end-step discarding with discard-light hands has sometimes been the correct play as well. That said, I still lose more postboard games on the draw than I really find acceptable.

Has anyone else tried Foil? You have to change the land base, particularly to maximize Islands in hand, but it hits 2 birds with one stone. It is pretty narrow though.





peace,
4eak

[poc]

I have been currently playtesting a very similar list to the last ones posted:

// Lands :: 17
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [P3] Swamp (2)
2 [BD] Island (3)

[B]// Creatures :: 6
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Reanimation Effects :: 8
4 [US] Exhume
4 [FNM] Reanimate

// Card Selection :: 18
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder

[B]// Permission, Disruption :: 11
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of vapor
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [PL] Rushing River
SB: 1 [TS] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon

I've been testing with 17 lands and 2 ponders, but maybe I'm going back to:

18 lands -2x Ponder + 1xEchoing Truth

or test

17 lands -1x Thoughtseize + 1xEchoing Truth


I'm still not quit sure... Sometimes Echoing Truth have been awesome, but many others it felt not necessary.

What the more experienced players with the deck find better?

Also I've had a very hard time sideboarding, any advice for the sideboard composition (with and/or without green), general advice (when to take out Dazes) and especific matchups info (take out a pair of reanimates against zoo)?

For me Stiles have been proving nice against people playing fetchlands and crypts/relics, and also work well against sower of temptation, faerie macabre and such. Maybe I'll try adding some more.

Thanks!

[practical joke]

I've been thinking about Foil, and I agree it has it's uses, but also take into consideration the ammount of creatures you leave in your board in G2.
in my case that could be lowered to 4 creatures only. I'm not taking those chances, because it takes a lot of resource to be able to use it.
A bit to many if you don't have a creature.

Where I find thoughtseize to be extremely good in the on-the-draw games, that way you can see a lot of misery incoming.
Also playing with 3 petals and a ritual, makes the deck so much faster that it can dive under most hate with just the high speed it has.
If it doesn't thoughtseize/duress is awesome-o-sauce!

[andiibooo]

I tried Foil in a previous version I had, and while it was good a couple times, it ended up just being too cute. It ended up being more detrimental than beneficial imo, but if anyone has a list that uses it well I'd be interested in trying it out. It would also give me an excuse to get foil Foils.

[dameus]

With RoE starting to be spoiled, Pathrazor [9/9; can only be blocked by 3 creatures; opponent sacs 3 permanents when it attacks] seems like a natural addition to Reanimator. Anybody else excited about him?

[whienot]

Pathrazor may be good, but I'm paranoid about playing more creatures that get hit with StP/Path.

[practical joke]

Pathrazor may be good, but I'm paranoid about playing more creatures that get hit with StP/Path.


annihilator is excellent against creatures/ control decks that hardly have acces to it and only works in high speed reanimation builds.

[videogamer99]

I am kinda new to this deck. I am currently trying it with this:

Creatures
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
2 Ponder
1 Echoing Truth

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I have enjoyed playtesting. It seems great. I cant wait to finish it and play it at Grand Prix Columbus

[Tokobotenkai]

Hi guys, been reading through the past few pages (hey PJ i'm finally on source too :p)

Since you guys ran more testing than me, got a few questions to ask (as my test group is rather small/i don't want to shell out too much cash to find out that the card gets taken out the next moment and sits there in the corner of my room)


Does tropical island help the deck much or it's just a random addition?
Anyone tested 3 petals 1 rituals vs 4 petals, how did it go?, I somehow find the ritual redundant quite a few times during playtesting, and maybe even 3 petals is enough if i want to go for the acceleration route?
Since Faerie Macabre is seeing more play, would 2 stifles be better or a singleton stifle + a singleton trickbind be better?
Is a 3rd Iona worth adding? Or is it too excessive?
In an aggro meta (i.e. goblins etc) but with random aggro loams, control, combo etc around would 1 blazing archon + 1 empyrical archangel be worth the slots, or will only either of them suffice?


Sorry for the ton of questions.

[nodahero]

From a combo players perspective I would love for you to run either or both of those as it means you have two more cards that are dead against me.

As for whether they are worth it in an aggro meta, I believe the correct answer is directly dependent on what type of removal their deck is packing. IF they are running a full suite of Paths then Archangel is worlds better. If they are running straight up burn then Archangel again is better. IF on the other hand all your meta has is Goblins, Merfolk, and the like (i.e. packing limited to zero removal) I would pack Archon.

[4eak]

@ Tokobotenkai


Does tropical island help the deck much or it's just a random addition?

If you are playing with a green splash (generally found in the sideboard), then Tropical Island is very useful. Adding a Bayou/Tropical Island usually replaces an extra Island/Swamp pair (assuming you are playing 18 land), and so you'll still have access to your basics, and your coloring won't actually be much different (as your Bayou would have been a Swamp, and your Tropical Island would have been an Island).

Green brings a lot to the sideboard for a fairly minimal cost (essentially, you open yourself up to non-basic hate only slightly more; moving from 9 to 8 chances to see an on-color fetch or basic for both blue and black). The splash doesn't take a lot of room, but with the correct fetch configuration, you'll have 10 fetches + 2 duals, giving you ample access (including your cantrips) to your splash color .

Nature's Claim
Krosan Grip
Reverent Silence
Xantid Swarm
Engineered Explosives@3


Since Faerie Macabre is seeing more play, would 2 stifles be better or a singleton stifle + a singleton trickbind be better?
Let me first say, I love Thoughtseize. It is a simple way to solve many of these problems.

I've been testing Trickbind. I think it is worth running as long as you've got the manabase to support it (not based on Rit/Petals), generally the full 18 land. Assuming Mystical tutor will get your Stifle effect in a large number of cases, if you already have your target in the GY, split second won't matter--they'll activate GY hate at their next priority (which will be before you could draw Stifle/Trickbind). However, if you've drawn or Brainstormed into Stifle effects (and your opponent doesn't know you have it hand), then split second could still matter. Additionally, I really try to avoid dropping my targets into the GY until I'm ready to go off. Finding enough mana to Entomb/Careful Study->Reanimate/Exhume->Stifle/Trickbind in the very same turn is really the issue. Trickbind can be stronger than Stifle here as well.

Trickbind is exceptional when you are down 1 piece of permission against an opponent wielding activated/triggered GY-hate. For example:

Entomb resolves, Reanimate, GY-hate activation, Stifle, FoW on Stifle.
Entomb resolves, Reanimate, GY-hate activation, Trickbind, FoW on Reanimate; now you can try an resolve another reanimation spell before they can counter or hate your GY.

Thoughtseize, of course, solves lots of problems that Trickbind/Stifle does, excepting Survival/Top floating/low-life circumstances, and other forms of activated/triggered hate which are already in play.

A number of times, Mystical Tutor->Stifle telegraphed way too much information--often permission stack control (or actively digging for answers) is an opponent's response. Stifle's vulnerability can be painful (especially if you are sitting on multiple Reanimation effects) in counterwars. Most of the time, I prefer plain Stifle, as the mana-efficiency is wonderful. But, there are decks where split second has been useful.


Is a 3rd Iona worth adding? Or is it too excessive?
I think there are diminishing returns to adding Iona's. Going from 1 to 2 is easier to justify, as you may need Iona, you have one stuck in your hand and no way to drop it, but you have an Entomb. The 3rd doesn't provide much more. Iona is definitely insane, but I'd rather use the slot for silverbullets to other situations.


In an aggro meta (i.e. goblins etc) but with random aggro loams, control, combo etc around would 1 blazing archon + 1 empyrical archangel be worth the slots, or will only either of them suffice?

I think both should be run. I Blazing Archon against decks that I know can't answer it or against decks which can answer it, but I'm in immediate danger of an alpha-strike (which means I have to take the chance Archon will go distance for 4 turns without getting answered). Empyrial Archangel does a lot of work in between, and it makes Reanimate[/card]'s drawback much, much more acceptable against decks which would have enough gas and answers to finish us before we can finish them.

I think Archon is a slot that is set in stone. Against way too many Merfolk/Goblin/Drede/Zoo gamestates, you'll be forced to Archon or lose. It is your 'oh-shit' card. Unlike control decks which sit on Moat, praying to topdeck an answer/win before their opponent (averaging a fairly long time to be sitting on Moat), Archon is just 4 turns against most decks (excepting opposing flyers, etc.), which is respectably short. Archon wins games you simply couldn't have won otherwise, and when you begin with a mediocre or weak hand, it also gives you a real out to very strong (even godlike) opposing hands.

You'll definitely see Empyial Archangel get its butt kicked from time to time. It also isn't nearly as risky as running Archon straight into StP/Double Bolt, etc. There will be a ton of positions where you could lose in the 3-4 turns required for Inkwell Leviathan to win as well. EmpArchangel is both offensive and defensive at the same time, and I've found it pretty powerful against decks play both Tarmogoyf and StP. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is very often a stronger card than EmpArchangel, but StP, PtE, bounce effects (even Goblins has it with [cards]Stingscourger), and even weirder effects like Maze of Ith, Ice, Merrow Reejerey make Sphinx vulnerable enough that true Shroud is necessary. EmpArchangel is a compromise.




peace,
4eak

[Tokobotenkai]

@ Tokobotenkai



If you are playing with a green splash (generally found in the sideboard), then Tropical Island is very useful. Adding a Bayou/Tropical Island usually replaces an extra Island/Swamp pair (assuming you are playing 18 land), and so you'll still have access to your basics, and your coloring won't actually be much different (as your Bayou would have been a Swamp, and your Tropical Island would have been an Island).

Green brings a lot to the sideboard for a fairly minimal cost (essentially, you open yourself up to non-basic hate only slightly more; moving from 9 to 8 chances to see an on-color fetch or basic for both blue and black). The splash doesn't take a lot of room, but with the correct fetch configuration, you'll have 10 fetches + 2 duals, giving you ample access (including your cantrips) to your splash color .

Nature's Claim
Krosan Grip
Reverent Silence
Xantid Swarm
Engineered Explosives@3

Oh I'm running a single basic of each (island and swamp) + 7 fetches, 3-4 underground seas and 2 bayou, I'm considering whether tropical island is worth slot instead of a bayou or something.


I've been testing Trickbind. I think it is worth running as long as you've got the manabase to support it (not based on Rit/Petals, generally the full 18 land. Finding enough mana to Reanimate/Exhume->Stifle/Trickbind in the very same turn is really the issue. Nicely, hate won't be blown until they must respond to a Reanimation effect, as they can generate card advantage against you by waiting, often giving you time to build your manabase.

A number of times, Mystical Tutor->Stifle telegraphed way too much information--often permission stack control (or actively digging for answers) is an opponent's response. Stifle's vulnerability can be very painful in full blown counterwars. Most of the time, I prefer plain Stifle, as the mana-efficiency is wonderful. But, there are decks where breaking the split second has been very useful.

Yea, one concern I got is mana, I have seen aggro decks running faerie which i dont have mana to stifle and reanimate together, and with a clock, I don't have enough time to build my mana base which is my issue.


I think there are diminishing returns to adding Iona's. Going from 1 to 2 is easier to justify, as you may need Iona, you have one stuck in your hand and no way to drop it, but you have an Entomb. The 3rd doesn't provide much more. Iona is definitely insane, but I'd rather use the slot for silverbullets to other situations.

So my gut feeling wasn't that wrong after all. (the last reanimator I played with any creature more than 2 was when vampiric tutor was legal as a 4-of in extended).


I think both can be run. I Blazing Archon against decks that I know can't answer it or against decks which can answer it, but I'm in immediate danger of an alpha-strike (which means I have to take the chance Archon will go distance for 4 turns without getting answered). Empyrial Archangel does a lot of work in between, and it makes Reanimate[/card]'s drawback much, much more acceptable against decks which would have enough gas and answers to finish us before we can finish them.

I think Archon is a slot that is set in stone. Against way too many Merfolk/Goblin/Drede/Zoo gamestates, you'll be forced to Archon or lose. It is your 'oh-shit' card. Unlike control decks which sit on Moat, praying to topdeck an answer/win before their opponent (averaging a fairly long time to be sitting on Moat), Archon is just 4 turns against most decks (excepting opposing flyers, etc.), which is respectably short. Archon wins games you simply couldn't have won otherwise, and when you begin with a mediocre or weak hand, it also gives you a real out to very strong (even godlike) opposing hands.

You'll definitely see Empyial Archangel get its butt kicked from time to time. It also isn't nearly as risky as running Archon straight into StP/Double Bolt, etc. There will be a ton of positions where you could lose in the 3-4 turns required for Inkwell Leviathan to win as well. EmpArchangel is both offensive and defensive at the same time, and I've found it pretty powerful against decks play both Tarmogoyf and StP. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is very often a stronger card than EmpArchangel, but StP, PtE, bounce effects (even Goblins has it with [cards]Stingscourger, and even weirder effects like Maze of Ith, Ice, Merrow Reejerey make Sphinx vulnerable enough that true Shroud is necessary. EmpArchangel is a compromise.

peace,
4eak

Yea, Archon has the issue of being StP/PtE away.

Against zoo/dredge wouldn't EE perform better than archon?

[4eak]

@ Tokobotenkai

I apologize for the ninja edits (I decided to rework one of my arguments at the last second) -- you may want to re-read once again.


Oh I'm running a single basic of each (island and swamp) + 7 fetches, 3-4 underground seas and 2 bayou, I'm considering whether tropical island is worth slot instead of a bayou or something.

14-15 land (and 3-4 petal or rit) is too few to make it worth running green, imho. Green is a more longterm, control approach to the deck. I don't think it adds much for a build which seeks to be explosive (in my opinion, at the cost of consistency and some viability in the manabase for a midgame).

Tropical Island, of course, has the benefit of tapping for blue. While running more land, I prefer Tropical + Bayou to 2x Bayou. Your fetch configuration will support your ability to fetch an Island (the most important basic in the deck, imho) just a tad better while maintaining the same chance to grab a green source.


Yea, one concern I got is mana, I have seen aggro decks running faerie which i dont have mana to stifle and reanimate together, and with a clock, I don't have enough time to build my mana base which is my issue.

Lands, instead of acceleration, will go a long way to helping you fight through hate. I wouldn't even consider running Trickbind in a deck without a proper manabase. In fact, I probably wouldn't even worry too much about Stifle. Thoughtseize should be doing most of the work for explosive builds, as these can be cast the turn before or off a Rit.


Against zoo/dredge wouldn't EE perform better than archon?

Except that you actually have to draw the EE, requiring many more slots usually (which is why I don't play it). EE may cost a lot more mana to be effective (which you won't usually have available to you when Archon is necessary). Additionally, EE only hits part of the board, which may not be effective enough against diversified CC's on the board.

Dredge can put themselves in winning positions before EE becomes effective. Echoing Truth also handles Tokens, GGT, or Iona on Black. Archon can be put into play with fewer resources and greater consistency--it also doubles not just as a very strong defensive card, but as a win condition. I prefer Archon here.

EE isn't as strong a catchall against very aggressive decks as Archon, but EE catches artifacts/enchantments alongside a few wincons very nicely. It does stupid things to stupid decks like elves too (but Archon often does as good, if not a better job in those cases).




peace,
4eak

[Tokobotenkai]

@4eak

Regarding hate are you refering to GY hate or Nonbasic land hate or?

I'm trying to balance between pure lands (consistency) and lands + petals (explosiveness).

My issue with lands build is wastelands + Hand destruction, though it helps more in a counterwar and with more consistency in opening draws. while petals even under a wasteland lock gives me the last mana or so to win, also outspeeding your opponent helps to win. Thus, I'm kinda stuck in between.

Also, is 10 fetches really ok? Or do you just use a few fetches to grab the lands you need and the rest are gas (to discard to careful study and stuff). Life from fetches are also kinda annoying.

[4eak]

Regarding hate are you refering to GY hate or Nonbasic land hate or?

Running Land instead of acceleration will make you more resilient across the board, imho. Among other things (side effects on Brainstorm, basics retrieval), the ability to tap for mana over and over again is just too useful.


I'm trying to balance between pure lands (consistency) and lands + petals (explosiveness).

As I said, I think it is a mistake to play acceleration. It doesn't add much to your explosiveness; it does, however, force you into the explosive playstyle (and mulligans), is less consistent, and lacks the same midgame and ability to fight through disruption and answers as builds which choose to run land.

I previously pointed out (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-%5BDeck%5D-B-U-Reanimator&p=437485&viewfull=1#post437485) where acceleration (particularly Petal) actually amounted to being a full turn faster than Land. What Land gives to the deck is more relevant and frequent than the times acceleration actually presents you with the combo a full turn earlier or the ability to combo in awkward situations. These awkward situations are also exceedingly rare, something like OppT1: Wasteland; T1: Land, Entomb, Petal, get wasted; OppT2: Wasteland; T2: Land, Exhume -- this couldn't be done with 3 lands, it required 2 lands and a petal -- this also isn't common, and Careful Study/Reanimate/Brainstorm/Mystical Tutor/end-step discarding down will generally help negate the value of double waste against a 3-mana hand. There are, on the other hand, a ton of common gamestates (should I provide examples?) where Land is strictly superior to mana acceleration.


My issue with lands build is wastelands + Hand destruction

I think Wasteland + Hand destruction is a pretty small part of the metagame; I'm not even convinced Lotus petal is a stronger choice in such a metagame either. I'd think Lands would still quite good for finding my basics and using Daze/Thoughtseize/Spell Pierce/Brainstorm against such a deck. I agree that fighting Wasteland (even without hand destruction) is a very important concern overall.

Against Wasteland, I prefer Lands. Assuming you don't have the turn 1 combo (not very common), going Sea->Petal->1cc whatever; they wasteland it; you are stuck with only a petal until you draw one of your remaining 13 or 14 lands or a petal (if you can off with 2 mana). Even if you do go off on turn one, having reusable mana sources can still be important. Except for Iona against mono color decks and Archon against a few others, rarely do you actually win a game on turn 1, even if you combo on turn 1--you still protect your reanimation target and disrupt your opponent, and this is still best done with a land heavy manabase.

Land:

Allows you to cast more spells over the course of the game
Makes daze stronger
Lowers your mulligan rate (ridiculously important)
Improves your ability to sideboard (and play higher CC spells)
Allows you to attempt to go off multiple times more consistently
Isn't subject to and helps you fight through stack control (Trinisphere, Counterbalance, etc.), unlike Petal.
Can more consistently use Thoughtseize/Duress (even though it is the explosive playstyle which would rely upon these cards the most).
Brainstorm is just a better card all around when you rely upon Lands, and symbiotically, Brainstorm makes Land flooding less of an issue (as does Careful Study).


I'd wager that just the overall loss in consistency due to running Petal instead of Land costs more turns on average than Lotus petal ever successfully buys for you. That is to say, if we played 10,000 games with each build, I think the 18-land build is actually faster on average than the Petal or Rit builds.

Lotus Petal belongs in a deck which must go off in one turn. Reanimator does not have to go off in one turn; in fact, most of the time, your combo is broken across a couple turns (and sometimes many more). I think this is a card which makes flashy plays, and admittedly, from time to time, can race opposing hate. I think most people easily forget the times and costs of this card when it is worse than a land.


Also, is 10 fetches really ok? Or do you just use a few fetches to grab the lands you need and the rest are gas (to discard to careful study and stuff). Life from fetches are also kinda annoying.

I have my basics when I want them, I almost always have the colors I need, and Brainstorm does become even better. Generally worth the lifeloss, imho. The game usually ends with 2-3 land in play (longer games, often more), so the amount of lifeloss (~1.1 to 1.6 on average) is minimal, but the benefits are fairly large.





peace,
4eak

[Folkien]

I'm trying to balance between pure lands (consistency) and lands + petals (explosiveness).

My issue with lands build is wastelands + Hand destruction, though it helps more in a counterwar and with more consistency in opening draws. while petals even under a wasteland lock gives me the last mana or so to win, also outspeeding your opponent helps to win. Thus, I'm kinda stuck in between.

If you are looking for consistency, try using ponder, Im actually using 3 of them and its insane. I also use 17 lands (8 fetches + 2 island + 1 swamp + 4 Usea + 2 bayou)

For GY I think faerie macaber would be our most annoying enemy :(

[psu42]

Seeing how this deck is performing and either a) needs to be more considered or b) will be moved up to DTB or DTW, shouldn't we get a new thread with a real deck write-up?

[Vacrix]

In cases where you are willing to replace Ponder with SDT, you automatically should be choosing other cards for the deck which belong to a slower strategy. SDT is a longterm card, not a short term one. Additionally, while it can be played off Dark Ritual, most of the time you won't have a ritual. The Land-base is always what supports SDT. And, even with an 18-land-base, SDT is too costly a manasink in a deck whose current incarnations arguably play the second lowest average mana spent per game in Legacy (Dredge takes the title). If you don't plan on fighting in the midgame (and most reanimator builds don't imho), then SDT doesn't have a place in the current versions of the deck.

Let me also say I'm not against a slower version of the deck; I think it would need to be built a bit differently though. While Dark ritual has no place in a Reanimator deck using SDT-- as the former pushes for a pure combo role and the latter a more control-based role (only one deck I know absolute should play both, and Doomsday is a very unique card), we could easily find other control cards which work well with SDT. If you are willing to play a slower game, and you will be using SDT in a blue control shell, why not play Counterbalance?

Personally, I would opt out of Countertop (and also SDT in general) because I think we can maximize the value of Daze, Thoughtseize, FoW and the raw value of our silverbullets by comboing in the early game--if the choice is between Ponder or SDT (and you refuse to play Careful Study), then Ponder is the correct choice.

Though all your points are solid, we shouldn't necessarily limit the discussion to SDT alone. Sylvan Library is excellent at card filtering, and with x12 fetchlands, x2 Ponder (I split x2 Study x2 Ponder), x4 Entomb, x3-4 Mystical Tutor.. Thats about x20 shuffle effects, give or take. 20 cards that shuffle should give you a pretty good chance of finding one when you take 3 off the top. I will obviously stray from Library though because the deck already loses lots of life to reanimate and just from taking hits from aggro so the draw effect of Library is pretty much irrelevant or it will kill you.. and Library is vulnerable to Spell Snare. I opt for Mirri's Guile. It comes down as early as turn 1, like top, but without the manasink. The downside? You don't have the draw effect that can save itself AND you have to be running green. I run x1 Bayou for KGrip in my build already though so adding it in won't be a problem if it is even good at all.

Also people... Stifle > Thoughtseize. Stifle stops Crypt, Relic, Macebre, and Pridemage if you run Animate Dead. You don't really need Thoughtseize for much else, Stifle is even better in the combo matchup. I've been running it in my build before Entomb was even unbanned and let me tell you I rarely want a discard spell instead. Try it (its good postboard too actually, I've tried both).

[practical joke]

I'd go with thougthseize any time of the day.
This card shines where stifle is dead. I've won a good ammount of matches as well reanimating something they have.
i.e. single goyf, rwm, dark confidant ( also killed me once) etc.

Thoughtseize can also give you insight where stifle can't. ( combo hand, pikula, the rock, merfolk, landstill, counterbalance.)

Stifle can take down a storm, oh noes! like they won't chant you in advance. Really, if they don't duress or chant you in advance, they're crappy players anyway. stifle seems near dead to me there.

Stifle can take down a fearie macabre where there's a SDT in play and you have a mana to spare for stifle.

Stifle can shut down fetches and relics, where you also have a krosan grip and/or nature's claim for in SB ( also forces, dazes, bounce and show and tell)


I can agree partially on the no-mana enhancers just land arguments.
I don't like to play it that way, against some matches it simply makes my gameplan a turn to slow. i.e. counterbalance, ANT, zoo etc.
If I would pick the deck for a tournament I will try a 60-card version with 3-4 petals and 1 dark ritual since that card is important in a lot of matches.

If you don't like petals I would advice a single ritual to fight merfolk and such. you can easily overcome spell pierce, cursecatcher en daze.

[4eak]

I can agree partially on the no-mana enhancers just land arguments.
I don't like to play it that way, against some matches it simply makes my gameplan a turn to slow. i.e. counterbalance, ANT, zoo etc.
If I would pick the deck for a tournament I will try a 60-card version with 3-4 petals and 1 dark ritual since that card is important in a lot of matches.

What do you agree with? What do you disagree with?

I can try to justify a single ritual as a mystical tutor target. Running more acceleration than that I cannot.

There aren't many situations where mana acceleration is actually faster. After going through the probabilities of 7-card hands, Lotus Petal/Rit (in place of lands) only makes you a turn faster in roughly 5% of your hands (in most of those cases, acceleration makes Exhume occur a turn faster). This is an abysmal addition to your speed for the opportunity costs of not playing straight land.

You do realize that ~5% of your opening 7-card hands will have a Lotus petal or Rit, but no other mana source, right? Those are auto-mulligans (outside of the extremely rare and dangerous; T1: end step discard; T2: Petal, Reanimate). Whereas, if that had been a land (instead of a Petal/Rit), there are a ton of 1-landers worth keeping. Mulligans alone are going to eat right into any benefits gained through mana acceleration.

As I said, I'm not even convinced Mana acceleration actually amounts to being faster in the end. And, even if we assume mana acceleration actually amounts to making you a turn faster in 2-3% of your games (without even considering the implications to protecting your combo both before and after), it comes at a great cost in so many other areas. I'd much, much rather have the ability to continue tapping land in the face of most decks. This is particularly true in the games which can actually be difficult -- games 2 and 3.





peace,
4eak

[whienot]

Another thought on Petals, at least I don't think this has been mentioned yet.

Though, Petals won't always enable a faster combo, there are situations where Petals puts you way ahead in card selection. Opening with Petal, Brainstorm, Fetch is huge. Its incredigood, especially when you hit another Brainstorm/Entomb/Tutor, to play off the fetched land (which is quite common). You still end up comboing turns 2/3, but you've seen more cards and are usually better stocked to protect yourself.

This is the line of play I prefer when playing Lotus Petal.

That said, I've been testing lists without acceleration and have been satisfied. The stability makes casting 3 drops out of the sideboard much easier. My biggest issue has been fighting through all the decks packing Macabre & Crypt. It gets really tiring. If only Damping Matrix was cc :2:

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

Is only me thats pay attention to this: Reanimate + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn = gg ????

And Artisan of Kozilek could be a new addiction to the build?

Comments please!

Cyah,

Lammina

[hungryLIKEALION]

You have to actually CAST artisan to get the reanimation, so no, it won't be played.

[Lammina]

You have to actually CAST artisan to get the reanimation, so no, it won't be played.

Oh, sorry, my bad!

QFT!

But, and the 15/15, isnt a good addiction?

Cyah,

Lammina

[practical joke]

Drunk for sure.

I have to say, that if we are going to face a lot of specific graveyard hate again, especially macabre and extirpate.
I'll definately be packing the full 4 show and tell in SB again and back to 7-9 creatures after sideboarding.

[fdiv_bug]

I have to say, that if we are going to face a lot of specific graveyard hate again, especially macabre and extirpate.
I'll definately be packing the full 4 show and tell in SB again and back to 7-9 creatures after sideboarding.
What about bringing in not only the rest of the Show and Tells (Shows and Tell?), but also Worldly Tutor in place of your Entombs and Reanimates, respectively, and changing directions completely? It seems to me that almost everyone is going to bring in some graveyard hate to try to put us off our `yard-based strategy, and this could completely throw them for a loop. This would, of course, necessitate running green, but I've been nothing but pleased with having green in my list already.

The biggest drawback that I can see is it would take up 7-8 slots in our board. I'll probably test it just because I'm crazy like that.

[Vacrix]

You can respond to the trigger with Goryo's Vengeance to get Emakrul into play for a turn.

[fdiv_bug]

You can respond to the trigger with Goryo's Vengeance to get Emakrul into play for a turn.

I dunno that it'd be worth it, though, just to get the annihilator trigger off. Goryo's Vengeance doesn't have much synergy with anything else in the deck, being only able to retrieve Iona aside from one of the Eldrazi, and that's hardly worthwhile in my opinion.

[Dark Ritual]

Errrr there is a 2 mana damping matrix, its called null rod. Null rod is a solid choice against crypt/relic and other artifacts. The only problem it doesn't solve is faerie macabre and that is the only upper hand damping matrix has on null rod. But if you want to solve macabre, just put in thoughtseize or for something a little more awkward use stifle to stifle the faerie's activated ability. Or just go show and tell against macabre. But if you don't answer macabre before going off via entomb you will get blown out as per usual.

The eldrazi are no good in reanimator; goryo's vengeance? Seems awkward and doesn't solve GY hate it seems that if you goryo's vengeance emrakul into play in response to his shuffle trigger they can severely blow you out with macabre. It would be nice to S&T emrakul into play though; he's better than progenitus when he sticks being able to blow out your opponent's entire board with one swing.

[Wess]

With the new reanimate-able 8/8 annihilator Eldrazi, and the Hellcarver demon...doesn't that make Entomb and Mystical Tutor obsolete, and free up 8 spaces in the deck? I think replacing the entomb's with 4 more reanimation effects and the mystical tutors with 4 of these creatures would signal GG.

Who needs a toolbox when we can build the deck with 4 of the Eldrazi, 4 Hellcarver Demon's, a couple of Iona's, 3 inkwell's, will almost always get one of the bombs in the yard with opening hand...with force and daze to protect it..seems solid.

[nodahero]

How exactly do you plan to cast a 6 mana demon?

Alright while you do that I will jsut entomb///exhume Ioona and beat you...

Sorry that does not make Mystical and Entomb obsolete.

[Chronox]

It's less consistent than the current built, and considering that you need entomb+reanimate effect+mana accel to combo in turn1 for almost the same effect that a iona on turn1 could do, i don't know if it's a good plan.

[Wess]

Turn 1 Ioona isn't what it used to be, and you would need the same card combo and acceleration, the new guy wins the game turn 1. Our toughest matchup, Zoo, is an autowin with the new guy, Ioona doesn't do the job.

Besides, you don't have to combo turn 1, its extremely consistent to go off turn with pact, force and daze protection. You could even add 4 lotus petals to increase the odds of going off turn 2, since you don't need lands really.

Anyways, I'm excited to build this, will be fun as hell, can't imagine any deck beating without a 15 card sideboard dedicated to it.

[Vacrix]

Our toughest matchup, Zoo, is an autowin with the new guy, Ioona doesn't do the job.
Pshh wtf? Do you play Reanimator? Zoo isn't reanimator's toughest matchup. Far from it.


Anyways, I'm excited to build this, will be fun as hell, can't imagine any deck beating without a 15 card sideboard dedicated to it.
Alright. I'm convinced now that this is April Fool's trolling. You had me going there.

[whienot]

Alright. I'm convinced now that this is April Fool's trolling.

There it is. Animate Dead tipped me off. Maybe Wess is from the future and has seen every meta iteration until Zoo evolved into Reanimator's worst matchup.

[Mystical_Jackass]

There it is. Animate Dead tipped me off. Maybe Wess is from the future and has seen every meta iteration until Zoo evolved into Reanimator's worst matchup.

heh.. Polar Express is back! Yeah, Iona's gone stale, just doesn't cut it no more lol

btw,


Another thought on Petals, at least I don't think this has been mentioned yet.

Though, Petals won't always enable a faster combo, there are situations where Petals puts you way ahead in card selection. Opening with Petal, Brainstorm, Fetch is huge. Its incredigood, especially when you hit another Brainstorm/Entomb/Tutor, to play off the fetched land (which is quite common). You still end up comboing turns 2/3, but you've seen more cards and are usually better stocked to protect yourself.

This is the line of play I prefer when playing Lotus Petal.

That said, I've been testing lists without acceleration and have been satisfied. The stability makes casting 3 drops out of the sideboard much easier. My biggest issue has been fighting through all the decks packing Macabre & Crypt. It gets really tiring. If only Damping Matrix was cc


I totally agree, ever since I'd added petals to my reanimator it's much improved. Multitasking for turn1/2 game winners becomes easy.

Damping matrix seems good... hmm. What are people SB'ing these days. I heard show & tell mentioned. Oh, someone mentioned maybe going another direction, allowing them to bring in their gy hate and switching it up to a less gy dependent strat, anyone have experience with this? I've thought about mixing in Tombstalkers with more countermagic, still haven't decided yet

[Vacrix]

Damping matrix seems good... hmm. What are people SB'ing these days. I heard show & tell mentioned. Oh, someone mentioned maybe going another direction, allowing them to bring in their gy hate and switching it up to a less gy dependent strat, anyone have experience with this? I've thought about mixing in Tombstalkers with more countermagic, still haven't decided yet

Stifle is awesome. Have you tried it in the board?

[Chronox]

Oh, someone mentioned maybe going another direction, allowing them to bring in their gy hate and switching it up to a less gy dependent strat, anyone have experience with this? I've thought about mixing in Tombstalkers with more countermagic, still haven't decided yet

Someone here bring up the idea to make a dreamhalls sideboard, wich enables you to transform the deck from reanimator to dreamhalls. Sounds quite interesting IMHO, but idk if it's a good idea.

[practical joke]

Noone expects a full show and tell sideboard nowadays, also tombstalkers can become a decent SB tech if we really feel the hate growing.

so far, I'm not affraid of any sideboard tech. If you are really affraid of something, create a dreadnaught stifle, hexmage dark depths sideboard.
toghether with 3 lim-dul's vault and you have the complete deck to the ready.

noone expects it.

[4eak]

Noone expects a full show and tell sideboard nowadays, also tombstalkers can become a decent SB tech if we really feel the hate growing.

Show and Tell isn't entirely transformational in my opinion, although it obviously avoids a serious weakness. I think you should either play 1 or 4 in the SB. I know a lot of people might disagree with Tombstalker, the argument being that TS is GY-dependant. I believe TS is acceptable. GY hate is never used until it must be used, and unfortunately for your opponent, if they don't know you have TS, they aren't going to wipe your GY (because they are waiting for a target + Reanimation spell). Game 3 or later in the tournament, the TS-tech isn't so hot.

I think Painter's combo actually fits very easily into the U/B control shell. Trinket Mage, a single EE, a single Fabricate (Mystical) can be part of the sb package. A single SDT, Lim Dul's or Ponder in the main can work very nicely with a Painter's sideboard, while remaining still useful in unsided games. Reanimate can bring back non-RFG removed or countered painter's. Heck, you can leave in some Entombs as a way to tutor Painter or T-mage in a pinch.

It has been okay in testing. It is definitely a surprise, and it doesn't rely on the GY. Even CB-Top or Dark Confidant could easily go into a version of Reanimator that had a Painter-transformational sideboard. I'm not convinced a full transformational sideboard is worth watering down the strategy, however, we should at least consider leveraging the control package, which can play nicely with so many other cards (having a different gameplan entirely from Reanimator) in this format.





peace,
4eak

[Mystical_Jackass]

Show and Tell isn't entirely transformational in my opinion, although it obviously avoids a serious weakness. I think you should either play 1 or 4 in the SB. I know a lot of people might disagree with Tombstalker, the argument being that TS is GY-dependant. I believe TS is acceptable. GY hate is never used until it must be used, and unfortunately for your opponent, if they don't know you have TS, they aren't going to wipe your GY (because they are waiting for a target + Reanimation spell). Game 3 or later in the tournament, the TS-tech isn't so hot.

I think Painter's combo actually fits very easily into the U/B control shell. Trinket Mage, a single EE, a single Fabricate (Mystical) can be part of the sb package. A single SDT, Lim Dul's or Ponder in the main can work very nicely with a Painter's sideboard, while remaining still useful in unsided games. Reanimate can bring back non-RFG removed or countered painter's. Heck, you can leave in some Entombs as a way to tutor Painter or T-mage in a pinch.

It has been okay in testing. It is definitely a surprise, and it doesn't rely on the GY. Even CB-Top or Dark Confidant could easily go into a version of Reanimator that had a Painter-transformational sideboard. I'm not convinced a full transformational sideboard is worth watering down the strategy, however, we should at least consider leveraging the control package, which can play nicely with so many other cards (having a different gameplan entirely from Reanimator) in this format.


peace,
4eak

Painter combo sounds pretty good too. I've even considered Storm an option, since I run rituals, fetches, and petals.

[4eak]

Two problems with a good storm transformation:


For a reasonable Storm build, you really have too many cards to side-in which can't be pre-sided -- this alone prevents it.
The permission package has no place in a storm deck.

U/B based painter decks aren't that far away from this deck, which makes the transformational sb quite possible. You wouldn't even need a perfect transformation, as the surprise and versatility of 2 different strategies could be enough.

In my experience, the Mystical tutor silverbullet package (answering so many forms of hate) combined with the succinct and focused Reanim build performs better than transformation packages. That may change if the metagame shifts to answer this deck; for some metagames, I could certainly see why someone would choose such a different sideboard.



peace,
4eak

[Davetradint]

After some testing, I have problems beating Depths consistantly. It dependes on the initial pressure and our speed, at least, that's what I got.

Is anyone using green splash? If so, how do you sideboards look like? I have moved towards the full S&T plan like Practical Joke has done. It's nice to see their 2x Hate pieces on the table :D
Reverent silence and Krosan grip are useful? I'd try nature's claim....

Any ideas?

[4eak]

@ Davetradint


After some testing, I have problems beating Depths consistantly. It dependes on the initial pressure and our speed, at least, that's what I got.

I can't seem to find a Dark Depths thread in Established. With 29 results in the past 4 months, it probably should have a write up. Unfortunately, the deck hasn't crystallized at all -- so it is difficult to know what particular version of Depths you're finding problematic.

From what I can see, there are 3 general builds of Depths:


BG Aggro-control
UBx Countertop
UB StifleNought

These cards will generally be in every build:

Dark Depths/Hexmage (duh)
Dark Confidant
Wasteland (necessary against opposing wastelands, but in this case, just another disruption element)

Don't expect to win long battles against this deck. Echoing Truth in the main is excellent (and you won't be siding it out), but you'll have to pick it up before (or within the same turn or so) that they drop the full combo, as they won't activate until your end step. Stifle (and particularly Trickbind in the blue matches) serves to fight against some of the GY-hate as well as their combo.


1. B/G -- this is a nightmare.

Aggressive creature list, including Goyf, which puts the game in their favor in control attrition wars
Living Wish board
Gatekeeper kicked, Smallpox, and Edict effects
Hymn, Seize, Duress
Crop Rotation->Bojuka Bog (Living Wish->Bojuka Bog -- although, terrible at sorcery speed, still useful in some cases)
A very diverse set of GY-hate cards: Leyline, Trap, Extirpate, Relic, Crypt, Bog, Faerie.

I suggest Stifle (hits GY hate and their combo, nicely) + more Bounce in this matchup. Look for early Iona reanimation hands. I don't think you can curb this matchup much.


2. Countertop -- this is generally the easiest flavor to beat (that sounds weird, I know).

Heavy blue shell (they'll run 3-4 more counters than us, but you may run discard effects to match them)
Slower gameplan, sometimes including asymmetrical (in our favor) cards like Deed.
Less GY hate
Usually, no relevant removal

As usual, keep Counterbalance off the table. I actually consider this version to just be worse than CounterTop Thresh. The manabase, removal suite, cantrip engine, win conditions are all weaker in this particular matchup. Without usable removal, you don't have to protect your reanimation target post-combo nearly as much. This will let you use your protection to force through your combo early. Thoughtseize is savage in this matchup. Reanimator's card selection, redundancy, and speed will generally overtake this matchup. I side in Grips and a Stifle effects.


3. StifleNought -- this can be a very swingy match, in part because they have wildly different gameplans depending on the hands they open.

Two cheap combos, but a somewhat inconsistent deck.
Lim-Dul's Vault is run in most of these versions. Vault is very good in this deck, as it stitches the 2-combo deck together.
Mana-Denial (which interestingly protects their combo against opposing wasteland decks) is quite effective against us.

Like Dreadstill, they open a hand and play the route that was dealt to them. Sometimes they'll be picking apart your manabase and going for the Depths combo; other times they'll go for Stiflenought.

Looks for signs of baiting (which is how the deck will leverage unused pieces). It is generally worth countering/seizing Lim-duls here, as it is the real backbone of card selection (even better than Brainstorm here, if you can believe it), in this deck. For example, they may have 1 piece from each of the combos + a Lim Dul's. So, if you can only answer one, then go for the card which can find the missing piece and stack the deck.

In addition to your Echoing Truth, Stifle and Nature's claim (2-for-1's) will be your serious bullets. Blazing Archon game 1 is an autoscoop for most of the builds -- as they have no answer and lose all ability to race you by comboing the next turn, and you will eventually resolve a reanimation spell for Inkwell.



Is anyone using green splash? If so, how do you sideboards look like? I have moved towards the full S&T plan like Practical Joke has done. It's nice to see their 2x Hate pieces on the table :D
Reverent silence and Krosan grip are useful? I'd try nature's claim....

I splash green. Here is my current Sideboard:

SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle

Nature's Claim is really quite nice. I board it in more often than Grip. However, against Chalice and CB, Grip is really quite important. Again, split second breaks the information symmetry of Mystical tutor to some extent. I run multiple Grips because I really want a better chance to draw/cantrip into Grip in the matches where I would want it. Claim, on the other, isn't as good in multiples. I would rather have a Stifle as the second card, as it can handle situations where Claim can't. Reverent Silence is either a dead card or wins the game for you all by itself against enchantment based prison decks--for some metagames, it isn't worth running. If you see wide variety of decks though, Reverent Silence can be a serious (and often unexpected) bomb against decks which otherwise would give us fits (very parallel to Hurkyl's Recall, obviously).





peace,
4eak

[moseby]

I am currently running a SB splashing green it basically goes like this.
3 K grip
2 engineered explosives
4 leyline of the void
1 S&T
1 hurkyl's recall
1 extirpate
1 perish
1 Angel of Despair
1 b bog


I do not run natures claim as dragon stompy and angel stax are part of the local meta(and E truth is in the main).

Once rise comes out I will be trying 2-3 S&T additional in the board + 1 worldly and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. It seems too good not to try with the 4 mysticals already in the deck.

Also could someone recommend a 7th reanimation target? I run the standard package;
2 Iona
1 inkwell
1 empyrial
1 blazing archon
1 sphinx of the steelwind

I had tried sundeirng titan, it is great against control matchups but I found it severely lacking vs agro and combo. I have been toying with the idea of red akroma, but the lack of haste or vigilance finds it wanting. The only other thing I could think of was going back to SSS

[XiaN]

Interessting enought no one mentioned the list suggested in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19033_Practical_Legacy_In_Search_of_Flash_Reanimator_in_Legacy.html) so far.
I'm not a big fan of transforming sideboards, but this list supports this strategy even more.

And i'm still not sure about the sb plan against sb hate. I ran Stifle in my current list, but Natures Claim seems so much stronger and overall more consistent against all kind of graveyard hate, except the faerie. Does anyone have experience on this particular decision?

[moseby]

Yes counter top and chalice @ 1 crap all over natures claim.

I was running stifle mainboard as it buys turns vs zoo when used on fetches, and also neuters pesky crypts and relics. Unfortunately is does nothing against leyline, wheel of sun and moon, and ground seal.

[videogamer99]

My sideboard plan is:
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt

I will probably cut 1 Krosan Grip for 1 Nature's Claim and cut 1 Echoing Truth for 1 Wipe Away. My friend and I have been testing 4 Leyline of the Void for the yard hate and then 3 or 4 Null Rod instead of Pithing Needle. It shuts down the most common yard hate, doesnt interfere with yours in the mirror. It also does great things against Top, Jitte, Affinity, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, LED. Its doing really good in testing and I may switch to that if it remains to be good.

[practical joke]

I currently run the following sideboard since GP Madrid and I really like it.

2 nature's claim
1 krosan grip
1 show and tell
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 extract
4 extirpate
3 xantid swarm
2 Engineered explosives.

The strength of this sideboard really fits the speed of the lotus petal version of reanimate.
I preferably run 3 nature's claim, but I cannot deny the strength and necessity that is the single krosan grip.

Still trying to make the sideboard fit somehow :P
lacking one spot, might take out 1 extirpate for a 3rd krosan grip, but then again extirpate is incredibly strong against so many decks that I prefer to run the full 4 next to the 4 mystical tutors which I prefer to use to set-up my combo, and not to find an answer.

About the SCG list, I preferably won't try to make a combo fit next to an end-turn control list.

[troopatroop]

To me, Krosan Grip is alot better than Natures Claim. When you're holding Krosan Grip, you can freely entomb for whatever you want when they have a Crypt or Relic in play. It saved my ass at the Vestal tournament in a game, killing both Counterbalance and Crypt. It gets around Counterbalance and Chalice, and is in general much stronger.

[whienot]

Nature's Claim is faster against decks without counters. Against things like Zoo I bring in bounce and Nature's Claim.

Here's my current board:

2x Spell Pierce
2x Extirpate
2x Krosan Grip
1x Nature's Claim
1x Coffin Purge (the Mirror has been showing up alot)
1x Duress
1x Thoughtseize (3 main, cut 1 for maindeck Stifle)
1x Show & Tell
1x Blazing Archon
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor

I'm trying out 3x Stifle main over the 4th 'seize, Study, and Daze. I haven't had the opportunity to use them, but after getting Macabre'd and Gilded Drake'd out of the Top8, I wanted to give them a try.

[ramanujan]

Good Evening,

I just won a very small tournament today with reanimator. 6 players, three rounds. It was a free tournament with the winner getting their choice of a Natural Order, GP Chrome Mox, Pulse, or FTV Berserk.

I chose a pretty standard reanimator list with7 creatures, 3 of which are Iona, with a transformational painters servant grindstone combo. With 7 creatures, I kept the SNT.

First round was Dredge. Lost the coin flip. Mulled once. I Forced pitching force turn one imp. Kept brainstorm and Leviathan. A few turns passed and I was at 5. He flashed back therapy. I concede so as to hide my deck choice before he names target. I chose not to play switcharoo and fake a sideboard swap. Game two I have double force backup and lay down a turn two Empyrial Archangel. It takes a while but I do win. Game three and my opponent sides in Leyline. I lose to it turn Zero. I decide that the mystical tutor in my hand would be really useful getting bounce right now. Too bad I kept SNT in the deck. I lose.

Round two against Merfolk. I get a second turn Iona to stick with FOW and Daze. He is unhappy about Iona. I make him even less happy three turns later. I do the switch. Out 7 creatures, 3 entomb, SNT, and two exhume. In goes 3 Grindstone, two Trinket Mage, Three Dark Confidant, Four Painter's Servant, and one EE. He leads off with Tormods Crypt or Relic, I don't remember which. Score 1 for the transformational sideboard trick. I procede to win off the servant combo after I bait him with Mystical Tutor and Thoughtsieze.

Round Three against Merfolk. We trade counters and I manage to Exhume out Iona but the battle is not over due to Vial and beats. I go down to 10 and draw entomb, almost lay down a fetch and realize that I cannot reanimate Archon unless I play Underground. I lay down Underground to get to two black. It gets wasted but it doesn't matter, Blazing Archon and Iona Team up FTW. Game two I do the switch to the Servant combo. We trade counters and Confidant is in the graveyard. I exhume it and draw some extra cards while taking a few beats and dammage from Confidant. I lay down servant and EE some creatures to stop the bleeding. We play draw go with me getting two lucky flips with Confidant. I then reveal Trinket Mage and have the lands in play for the win.

Overall. I think that I had some good draws against some tougher matchups for the deck. I was one of four 2 and 1s and the only one to play the other three 2 and 1s so I win on breakers. The store owner does everyone a solid and the four 2 and 1s draft the prize that was only to be given to first place. I chose first and get a Natural Order.

-Peace

[Lammina]

Hi all!

And someone had tested worldly tutor + Show and tell strategy in sideboard?

In the most games we can seal the reanimate combo in early turns, and ens the g1 (mostly), or simple: we fail.

In g2, ALLL the times the oponnents come with Graves Hates and, in the cas of the blue base decks, the counters of default deck.

Our side bring tools to remove or prevent the GH, and dodge some counters or removals... but, if we try a new construction of sideboard, counts with: +4 Worldly Tutor + X Show and tell + x Progenitus or the new 15/15 fly eldrazi? With this side plan, ALL the options counter the Grave Hate is unnecessary.

My idea of side is:

3 W. Tutor
3 Progenitus / 15/15 eldrazi
2 Krosan Grip
1 Show and Tell (I use 1 main deck)
1 Extract
1 Hurkyl Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Faerie Macabre (a good combo with the w. Tutor)


Worldly tutor bring for the deck the surprise of not need count with the grave and more control with the targets for the S&T.

Please, comments!

Cyah,

Lammina

[cjva]

Interessting enought no one mentioned the list suggested in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19033_Practical_Legacy_In_Search_of_Flash_Reanimator_in_Legacy.html) so far.
I'm not a big fan of transforming sideboards, but this list supports this strategy even more.

And i'm still not sure about the sb plan against sb hate. I ran Stifle in my current list, but Natures Claim seems so much stronger and overall more consistent against all kind of graveyard hate, except the faerie. Does anyone have experience on this particular decision?

I'm testing a deck similar to the one in that article. My overall view is that i like it, but it still needs to be tested some more.

For reference, here's my list.

1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

(when i find the economy to get a playset Verdant Catacombs I'll put two in here instead of 2 basics)

The difference with this list, the list's i see here is that this operate more like a regular control. I don't believe that the best way of playing this deck is comboing out asap, but establish control first and then combo out. It's still as likely to combo on turn 2 as any other list if need be. (or maybe slightly less thanks to no rituals if you need to do all parts of the combo in the same turn)

The strong sides of my take on Reanimator is that it gives the deck more late game power. Dark Confidant gives CA that the decks otherwise lacks, and Top is just insane and should be banned.

[Tinefol]

You should really include at least a singleton careful study in the list. Having your beaters stuck in your hand = no good. If you have Study, you can at least tutor for it.

Dryad Arbor? What the hell.

[cjva]

You should really include at least a singleton careful study in the list. Having your beaters stuck in your hand = no good. If you have Study, you can at least tutor for it.

Dryad Arbor? What the hell.

Well, i only play 4 creatures that I want to reanimate, so I have cut the S&T plan, and also the study.

Dryad Arbor is the nuts when you play against landstill and the likes who run Inocent blood and Swords to Plowshares. Fetch for Dryad and sac instead of Inkwell or Iona.

[practical joke]

There's no chance in the world that a version like that wins from pure aggro-decks like zoo or even gets close to beating merfolk.

Dark confidant will take you down horribly when you don't have an SDT to protect you. ( 4-9drops, 4-5drops and even wanting to cast reanimate?)
If you really want this list to work, stop using reanimate since it'll kill you with that confidant. You don't want to draw dead cards or spend every card you have on losing life. Use animate dead if you want to make a control list.
There is no 3 or 4-drop at all in the list to protect the counterbalance from Krosan grip, trygon predator, reverent silence, maelstrom pulse.
You could say you run counters, but there are a lot of other things you wish to counter against those decks.
The only deck I can imagine this being stronger against is ANT/NLS/Belcher/Dreadstill/

wait.. those are good match-ups already and dreadstill is dead already.
Counterbalance makes the few match-ups better where normal reanimate is already strong against.

[cjva]

Practical Joke: Well, I stated that I'm testing this list, that it need more testing. I have _never_ claimed the list to be superior to the standard list people play, it's another take on the strategy. I have yet to lose a match against Zoo, but i have only played like ~5 matches or so against it so I wont claim it to be valid data.

Yes, there are 8 cards that i don't want to flip with Dark Confidant. But what are the chance of that happening? ~15% if i haven't drawn any of the cards i don't want to flip before, and haven't played brainstorm or Top. That's a chance I'm willing to take.

I started of with the list David Fallgren piloted to place #33 in Madrid (posted in SCG's forum as a response to the article thats linked above). From that list i have cut Thoughtsieze, Show and Tell and 1 Daze in order to fit in 4 BoB and 1 more of Sensei's Divining Top and 1 more Counterbalance.

Looking at the list, exhume is the main card I want to use in order to reanimate.

I wont build a Reanimator thats opted to play against Merfolk, Zoo or Goblins. Decks that's pretty much non-existent in my meta. This list's main focus is play in a meta that have lots of combo and some control/aggro-control.

When i play with this list i often need to pick what way I want to play. Either i go for the control route, and focus on landing CB/top an BoB or to combo off asap. I play this deck more or less the same way I played Dreadstill before. I pick my role in the game. And this list ain't equally good to CB/top when it comes to playing the control role, nor equally good at comboing off as regular reanimator or ANT. But I have more options to chose.

With all that said, i only posted to list as a reference to my post. Not trying to convince anybody that its the optimal list, and right now i have named the deck "Nxt Lvl Reanimator v 0.19". I consider my testing to be in somewhat of a alpha/beta stage.

[Tacosnape]

If you're worried about having an alternate creature to sacrifice to Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict, why are you running Dryad Arbor over something like Putrid Imp, which at least helps push you towards your goal of reanimating a giant threat?

[cjva]

If you're worried about having an alternate creature to sacrifice to Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict, why are you running Dryad Arbor over something like Putrid Imp, which at least helps push you towards your goal of reanimating a giant threat?

Cause Arbor can be fetched when you need, and having just 1 in the deck does make it less likely to draw it when you don't need it, but the biggest reason is probably that i don't need to play it. It's nice to have the option when it occures, and it's nice not to play with sub-optimal cards in a to big extent.

Arbor takes a slot amongst the lands, give me the option to play EE on 3 if need be, where Putrid would take a place amongst my spells, and don't help me in the main goal to reanimate a big dude. I have cut the show and tell, cause it's not likely enough to have a big dude in hand (only playing 4 reanimate targets). The occasions where i need to discard a dude in order to reanimate it haven't occured to many times in my testing so far, (not saying it haven't thou, cause it have but its rare).

[Lammina]

Hi all!

And someone had tested worldly tutor + Show and tell strategy in sideboard?

In the most games we can seal the reanimate combo in early turns, and ens the g1 (mostly), or simple: we fail.

In g2, ALLL the times the oponnents come with Graves Hates and, in the cas of the blue base decks, the counters of default deck.

Our side bring tools to remove or prevent the GH, and dodge some counters or removals... but, if we try a new construction of sideboard, counts with: +4 Worldly Tutor + X Show and tell + x Progenitus or the new 15/15 fly eldrazi? With this side plan, ALL the options counter the Grave Hate is unnecessary.

My idea of side is:

3 W. Tutor
3 Progenitus / 15/15 eldrazi
2 Krosan Grip
1 Show and Tell (I use 1 main deck)
1 Extract
1 Hurkyl Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Faerie Macabre (a good combo with the w. Tutor)


Worldly tutor bring for the deck the surprise of not need count with the grave and more control with the targets for the S&T.

Please, comments!

Cyah,

Lammina

[Chronox]

I think that adding 3 worldly tutor is worse than adding 3 more creatures instead. Also, if you want to increase your creature count that much, only 2 show and tell is not enough IMHO.

[conboy31]

I think that adding 3 worldly tutor is worse than adding 3 more creatures instead. Also, if you want to increase your creature count that much, only 2 show and tell is not enough IMHO.

Probably. It is unlikely that a person is already running 4 Iona's between the main and sb, among other creatures. The wtutor just opens the deck up to more counterspells and cb. IF a person wanted wordly tutors, they would be better off just adding creatures they wanted to see. Especially when the creatures help out careful study if they miss their hate, or if they are blue (inkwell, arch, sphinx) allowing for force pitching.

[fdiv_bug]

Something else I started bouncing around in my head last night is to either run City of Solitude off a green splash, or Abeyance off a white splash (and abandon green altogether). City is nice in that you can drop it when you can -- use Duress or Thoughtseize to make sure the path is clear -- and then just wait until you can do your thing at "sorcery" speed. Abeyance is cheaper by one mana, and can be tutored, but requires you to do it all in the course of one turn, which can take up to five mana (2 for Abeyance, 1 for Entomb, and 2 for Exhume). And neither of them stop Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon, not to mention Chalice of the Void, so you'd likely need something like Krosan Grip or Demystify/Disenchant -- depending on splash color -- in the board anyway.

Thoughts? It's probable that I've gotten to the point where I'm making things too complicated, and should just run Nature's Claim and/or Krosan Grip and hope for the best. Or run a different deck, since the control knob in my local meta has recently been turned up to 11. :frown:

[XiaN]

It's probable that I've gotten to the point where I'm making things too complicated, and should just run Nature's Claim and/or Krosan Grip and hope for the best.
You got it :D

City of Solitude is too expensive for a deck, that wants to lift off on Turn 2-3. On the other hand it shuts down your cantrips, tutors, one combopiece and the couterpackage. City of Solitude is a nice card, but fits better in controldecks.

Abeyance is nice, but Orims Chant is better. And we are able to run full blue ( including counter ), which the other combodeck that uses white : ANT can not, because of .. well Ad Nausiam itself. No need for white in reanimator.

And with the SB .. try my way : I have accepted that i will most likely loose to Chalice and CB. We have counter to protect ourselfs against it and no real way to improve the MU when one hits the battlefield. Accept it. There is no deck that has good MUs against every card/deck in legacy.

I run 3 claim and one grip in the SB. This helps against the main form of hate against this deck. Everything else .. well .. random meta is random :D

[videogamer99]

So, this is my current list.
Creatures
2 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
1 Echoing Truth

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Nature's Claim
1 Wipe Away

I would like to A) run a second Bayou, but I cant afford it and 1 works fine, though I may run a singleton Forest, but idk right now and B) I want to find something to cut for another Nature's Claim and possible another Echoing Truth. I dont like the idea of running a singleton Pithing Needle, but it might be worth it for the other stuff. What do you guys think?

[Chronox]

I think you should replace one or even two basics for fetchs, so you can fix the manabase easier. Don't run a forest, as it will screw you if you draw it when you don't want.

[Davetradint]

For those who pack Extirpates in their sideboards: which are your main targets?
How do you side against tempo decks?
Which one is harder to deal with: Faerie Macabre? Trap?

[Lev]

Main targets for Extirpate are the obvious if you use it as gravehate against Dredge, Loam.dec or mirror. Also stealing key cards from ANT is nice, as well as getting the FoW out of control decks. (Where I also board in additional Duress, so I know the opponents hand most times and can generate card advantage)

Tempo decks are butthurt, I consider Faeries, Merfolk and Canadian ***** my worst matchups, in that order. Chains are good because they are fast, only 1 Show and Tell to tutor it up if you come across a situation where you manage to get to 3 mana. Against Merfolk, I also bring in Thunder Dragon from the sb.

Faerie Macabre is definetely worse for us. Trap cant even always be activated, while Macabre has the same advantage of being unseen and hell it just screws us up.

[jazzykat]

I tested vs. Death and Taxes and the obvious play of Iona became less obvious due to the threat of Karakas. They were at times able to pull out games with equipped avengers and such.

What would you guys reanimate (From the normal suspects) vs. D&T?
What would you board in (is pithing needle reasonable here?) vs. D&T?