[Deck] Reanimator

[Skeggi]

What would you guys reanimate (From the normal suspects) vs. D&T?
What would you board in (is pithing needle reasonable here?) vs. D&T?
Pithing Needle on Aether Vial, Mangara of Corondor and Karakas would be pretty good I suppose. Perhaps even on Wasteland. Good reanimate targets should have shroud: Emperial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan.

[whienot]

The issue with D&T is that Iona isn't good enough (Karakas) and they can race Inkwell with Stonforge Mystic into SoFI. Hurkyl's Recall is pretty good here, resetting vials and returning equipment.

If you do manage to P. Needle Karakas, Iona is in pretty good shape. Just be mindful of things like EE.

[jazzykat]

Hurkyl's early on should be just about gg. They can't race without vials and equipment. I was also thinking about playing 1 virtues ruin in the board to mystical up and just ending them.

[4eak]

I tested vs. Death and Taxes and the obvious play of Iona became less obvious due to the threat of Karakas. They were at times able to pull out games with equipped avengers and such.

What would you guys reanimate (From the normal suspects) vs. D&T?
What would you board in (is pithing needle reasonable here?) vs. D&T?

D&T can be a rough match. Thankfully, it is a rare match. Several concerns about it:

Maindeck GY-hate in Jotun Grunt. Play around it correctly (watch vial at 2)--even stronger GY hate from the side.
Massive targeted removal: O-ring, StP, Mangara, Jitte counters, temporary from Flickerwisp. Wing Shards from the side (really bad for us). -- Shroud is absolutely necessary, and play correctly against suspected Wing Shards.
Strong blocking possibilities: Protection from equipment and MoM, Flyers, no fear of Islandwalk, and plenty of fodder to stall.
Possesses a consistent clock (that actually matters).
Mana denial. Even basics aren't safe against Port. Mangara-lock can shut us out as well.
Vial + Karakas makes Iona pointless.
Resilience/evasion of permission: Vial, Wasteland against Islands for Daze, SFM's activated ability, Wing Shard's Storm.
Possible E-tutor board: Wheel of Sun and Moon (Stifle and Bounce are less useful) alongside the usual artifact hate. Runed Halo is actually effective against this deck, as we only have 1 or 2 viable reanimation targets.


From my experience:

With the amount of targeted removal you face, and 4x Karakas maindeck against Iona, Empyrial Archangel and Inkwell Leviathan are your only viable targets here.
Show and Tell and Careful Study blow in this matchup.
Thoughtseize is absolutely awesome in this match.
You'll generally need to combo in the space of a single turn to avoid their plentiful GY hate.
Hurkyl's Recall is not enough (although, a fantastic card in this matchup -- you will be boarding it in)
The green splash actually has an advantage here, as Nature's Claim and Grip are excellent against their hate, some of their removal, and slows their offense. Green gives you some mid-game breathing space that you really might need.
Play around Waste/Port as usual, but fetch or drop your green sources only on use (which is generally wise to begin with).
You absolutely should play 1 (or more) of the following cards in your Mystical Tutor board:

Sickening Dreams -- Extremely flexible. I use this because it isn't color dependent. If I thought D&T would be a more common matchup, I'd choose one of the following though.
Massacre -- A nice surprise card, generally excellent in mana denial. Doesn't handle equipped creatures or Serra's.
Virtue's Ruin -- Extremely narrow, can sometimes be rough against mana denial, but is a straight WoG in the match.



If I was able to choose which side of the table I'd be sitting, it would be as the D&T pilot in this circumstance--I think D&T has the advantage. As Reanimator, you either race their bad hands with your own godhands or you play a very tight control game against them.




peace,
4eak

[practical joke]

I disagree that it is a bad match-up.

For one, they posses not counterthreats, use this to your advantage and only take down what's really frightening.
inkwell is a fine beater as it has trample next to shroud.

That mainboard gy hate isn't good enough. The few cards they can remove at the beginning of their upkeep isn't going to solve it.

If you take down that one or 2 spells early turn, you prolly win.
before they can abuse a vial and all other stuff, you could have easily have a full turn of beating, a jitte won't safe that at all.
Also a very few ppl are smart enough to take mainboard bounce. This is the place where that comes in handy to tutor it up, slow them for a single turn and you win straight through anything.

Building blockers by reanimating their angels or mangara cojuld be great as well.

Before they can even play a mangara you should've won, or be close to winning. It's no good for them to use it.
When they use wasteland, they slow theirselves a full turn, nearly giving you a time-walk if you time your actions right.



Great extirpate targets:

life from the loam,
reanimate creatures,
dark ritual/mystical tutor/chants effects against ANT ( sometimes you get lucky and be able to get their tendrills.)
iona, vs BANT survival
dredgers/bridges
against a few decks you can take out their complete kill, i.e.worm's harvest or the insect against trisomy 21,
shriekmaw against certain rock builds.

that should be a decent list.
Against tempo decks I do not board at all, except for 1-2 nature's claim and a grip.
The rest of the match I should fight out on pure speed. I play the petal build, it's quite aggressive on the play.
Also I board in xantid swarms, since they are cute and can instant-win the match singlehandedly. ( they'll board out bolts and stuff high likely.)


Considering the board options I have against D&T, will high likely result in 3 claims and a krosan grip. Pithing needle could be a decent to very good option to board and I will advice it if you like playing with a pithing needle. ( targets could be jitte, MoR, karakas, mangara, vial, wasteland. Whatever you like)

[jazzykat]

2 quick things:

1. This thread is a million pages long. The initial deck was without entomb given that there is a lot of interest might it be possible to archive the old part of the thread and potentially throw a primer up. Given the posts that are in the thread there is a ton of information provided by credible members to get going on it. In fact this thread from what I can see has (at least recently) been able to stay civil. I like here!

2. Null Rod. It makes me happy. More importantly it is savagely effective at taking down most of the hate thrown at us and usually provides an effect from disabling to dismantling on opposing decks.

It hits....cyrpt, relic,scrabbling claws/phyrexian furnace (is this obsolete?), equipment, vial, top, explosives, (maybe not relevant), ARTIFACT MANA (I'm not sure if that was mentioned before) and I'm probably forgetting something else that is really good/commonly played.

Why are there not that many in the sideboards?

Maybe I am not playing the deck right but I am a bit cautious and usually when I cast the reanimation spell its GG (i.e. I have protection, or duressed a way clear, etc.) to me there isn't much more ball breaking than a null rod. I see how hurklys recall is more flexible (random stax anybody) but I feel that Null Rod is often far more powerful and is 1 card that tends to negate a fair amount of their hate and part of their MD strategy.

[fdiv_bug]

2. Null Rod. It makes me happy. More importantly it is savagely effective at taking down most of the hate thrown at us and usually provides an effect from disabling to dismantling on opposing decks.
Fascinating. I'll have to give it a go. Are you running any acceleration main, like Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal? I recently put Petal back in my list and I've been pretty happy with it, but I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive (with Petal even allowing you a first-turn Null Rod if need be).


Why are there not that many in the sideboards?
Because we were waiting for you to do the testing for us. :wink:

I'm definitely going to give it a try now, with your glowing recommendation. What's your full sideboard look like right now, if I may ask?

[jazzykat]

What's your full sideboard look like right now, if I may ask?

I don't have a full one. I play 18 land, no accelearation 4 ponders MD. 4 seize, bounce, some SnT, faerie macabre, extirpate, coffin purge, and 2 null rod in the board.

I haven't been testing that long but, I 'm still trying to identify decks that are actually problematic and D&T/Tempo Deck (much less so without Karakas) have been the worst I have encountered so far, so I can move my SB in a direction to defeat them.

This is the most fun competitive deck I"ve ever played (yeah BIG DUDES FTW!) so I will test whenever feasible.

[Davetradint]

If the deck keeps doing well in events, someone shoud propose an upgrade, but maybe this is too much right now. (Deck to beat?)
I agree with jazzykat and others, the deck now includes entomb and someone could try to make a primer or write something according to the real state of the deck right now.

Null Rod looks a great addition to the sideboard, but isn't it too expensive in mana terms? Against Bant we could not abuse it due to Qasali but in many other matchups it can wreck their hate...as well as Tops, Vials and moxen+LEDs...

Against which decks does Empyrial Arch. shine? For those who have more experience with her... I'm liking her more and more every day but sometimes thoughness 8 is not enough...

@Practical Joke: Do you still play Akroma? I was wondering if I should include one, but I already use 1x Sphinx, you know.... Is she really worthy?

[jazzykat]

If the deck keeps doing well in events, someone shoud propose an upgrade, but maybe this is too much right now. (Deck to beat?)

Null Rod looks a great addition to the sideboard, but isn't it too expensive in mana terms? Against Bant we could not abuse it due to Qasali but in many other matchups it can wreck their hate...as well as Tops, Vials and moxen+LEDs...

Against which decks does Empyrial Arch. shine? For those who have more experience with her... I'm liking her more and more every day but sometimes thoughness 8 is not enough...



1. Sssh it won GP Madrid, that's enough publicity.
2. Regarding bant, I'm not overly concerned that QP answers one of my answers because they still need to draw their crypt as well. We also can counter and/or seize him from them. It's definitely not optimal nor is it a deal breaker.
3. I think she is fantastic in those sticky tweener situations where you had to reanimate after taking a few hits from a goyf or something and are REALLY low on life. So you are racing when your life is low and inkwell won't cut it. I found her nutso vs. Merfolk, D&T, and blue top decks that don't really play more than 1/2 creatures at a time. It's a little safer than play than blazing archon provided they don't pack direct damage but do have ways to deal with creatures.

@Akroma, I can see where a win now card would be nice but I can't see playing her as opposed to our other awesome dudes.

On a side note, is anyone else underwhelmed at times with Careful study? I just want 8 entombs. Seriously, am I nuts to consider going to 3, it seems like a bad idea but so does casting it blindly sometimes?

[Davetradint]

I never got a Study countered, but you know you only throw the dude you have in hand, and maybe you don't want THAT dude. Sometimes you just play it and do not get what you need. That's the problem with Study.
I am playing a version with 4 seizes and no rituals nor petals. It's slower and has no explosive plays, but I can get some info or clear the way. Playing more aggresively makes Study more dependant on what you have/draw.
Consider entomb as the real business and Study as a little occasional help. Unfortunately we do not have access to more entombs, just 4 :(

[John Rohan]

Consider entomb as the real business and Study as a little occasional help. Unfortunately we do not have access to more entombs, just 4 :(

Looks like a lot of people want more than 4x Entombs. If you all want more so badly, have you all forgotten about Buried Alive? This could go a long way toward filling that need. This is what I used before Entomb came along, and I still keep 1-2 of them in my deck.

Here are the differences:

1. It's a sorcery. But in my experience, this rarely makes a difference here.
2. It costs 2B. This is significant, but it can also be an advantage. a 3cc spell is less likely to be stopped by Counterbalance.
3. It only puts creatures in the graveyard. Again, this makes little difference; in a reanimator deck, this is usually what you would want to do anyway.
4. It puts three creatures in. Unless you get hit with graveyard hate, this is quite a bonus. You can throw 3 different fatties to cover different situations. It also lets you hit threshold faster, if that is a factor in your deck (like with Putrid Imp).

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[practical joke]

Looks like a lot of people want more than 4x Entombs. If you all want more so badly, have you all forgotten about Buried Alive? This could go a long way toward filling that need. This is what I used before Entomb came along, and I still keep 1-2 of them in my deck.

Here are the differences:

1. It's a sorcery. But in my experience, this rarely makes a difference here.Oh, for hell it matters! example 1: fetch for sea, float one black, daze, cast entomb, next turn win anyone? Also responding to activated fetchlands, EOT cast are very important!
2. It costs 2B. This is significant, but it can also be an advantage. a 3cc spell is less likely to be stopped by Counterbalance. True, but, the spells that are just as important cost 1B and B, now how often do you think that gets passed CB?
3. It only puts creatures in the graveyard. Again, this makes little difference; in a reanimator deck, this is usually what you would want to do anyway. On a very rare occasion when ANT is exploding in your face I used entomb to get a Force of will, one misstake they can make when they go off with duress instead of chant.
4. It puts three creatures in. Unless you get hit with graveyard hate, this is quite a bonus. You can throw 3 different fatties to cover different situations. It also lets you hit threshold faster, if that is a factor in your deck (like with Putrid Imp). putrid imp builds no longer see play, shame though it's a nice creature but that deck died to CB horribly, so treshhold is of no factor, getting everythig removed by a single crypt is a huge risk you prefer not to take, losing 1-2 creatures is fine, but NOT 3!

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[jazzykat]

I don't want to reveal an exact list yet because I am not confortable with its quality. Right now, I am Testing an 18 land 4 creature MD Thoughtseize build very similar to the one that won an SCG 5K.

Testing 2 Null Rod in the board is very cool. The question, is it better than bounce to combat hate? My experience and intution have both said yes but this is quite dependent on how much you want to board in. While bounce is super flexible, answers the problem at hand, and can also help you race creatures, 1 null rod will usually shut down at least 2 pieces of hate (1 crypt, 1 relic). It also splashes onto many powerful MD and sb cards.

Testing last night, I had a lot of problems with Zoo. Onetime I animate the Sphinx with plenty of life and they PtE it. Another time I wait for protection and after a reanimate I get burnt out. Another time I thoughtseized their goyf reanimated it and still lost. I did not have perish in the board but I imagine that is why it is there? Can some people share their general strategy vs. zoo? Additionally can you guys suggest 1. The most powerful SB options and 2. Flexible and multi-use SB options.

Thanks,
JKat

[4eak]

@ Buried Alive

Buried alive just doesn't have a place in the deck. If I want a 3cc spell against CB, it will be Grip. Intuition could possible have a place, but I doubt it (Gigapede + Target is junk anyways).


@ Careful Study

As to Careful Study (related to this Entomb debate), my mind is changing. Yes, with 5-7 creatures in the deck, you have very good odds to use Careful Study to pitch a creature. Against jank, any random creature + minimal protection will usually go the distance (Study makes the deck very fast in these cases). However, against more specific matchups (one's with particular needs), I don't want just some random creature, I want a specific one. In difficult matches (where I only want 1 or 2 targets, and care nothing for the others) and especially games 2 and 3 with proper sideboarding, Careful Study isn't so hot. Study is not fast at finding the exact target you want.

I have to admit that after further testing, I am growing fonder of Ponder. Ponder is much slower than Careful study at putting just any random bomb into GY/play, but it is substantially faster at putting the exact creature you want into play. In games 2 and 3, where I'm very often siding out useless Reanimation targets, Careful study becomes substantially weaker. Furthermore, Ponder improves the odds of seeing the cards which I've sided in. Using Ponder relieves pressure off Mystical Tutor (which has to fulfill so many functions in this deck), and it lowers the number of mulligans I take.

I really think it is worth slowing down (by running fewer Careful Study) against matches where we don't care which target we Reanimate (which are usually easy matches to begin with) in order to speed up against the matches that have more specific reanimation target requirements and greater need of our sideboard cards (by improving our overall card selection through Ponder).

What I'm using:


// Lands -- 18
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [R] Bayou
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures -- 6
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Control -- 12
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth

//Reanimation Effects -- 8
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume

//Card Selection -- 16
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
1 [OD] Careful Study
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [MPR] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle

For the 4th Ponder, I'd cut a Thoughtseize or Iona. Please note that I still run 1x Careful study, which does get mystical tutor'd from time to time, and like Echoing Truth, absolutely deserves a singleton slot. Thoughtseize, end-step discard, and brainstorm also dump trapped targets (rarer than you'd think) when Study is not available.

I've also noticed that many of you playing the Green splash prefer to run 2x Bayou instead of 1x Bayou + 1x Tropical Island. I highly suggest a Tropical Island. This allows your fetches to pickup exactly any 2 colors you want.


@ Null Rod

You can't Mystical tutor it (that is awful), which means you have to run 3-4x of these. Null rod is slow, inconsistent, and inflexible. It also fails to answer some GY hate in the format (Leyline, Grunt, Faerie, Bog, Wheel, Ground Seal). Stifle, Thoughtseize, Permission, and Grip/Claim are all around better--they are also useful against things other than GY hate, and Null rod is quite limited in this respect. As mentioned, it also opens the deck up to permanent-based hate.


@ Zoo




Look for explosive hands (into Shroud or Iona on White) or slow hands with lots of protection.
Run Perish.
Side out Thoughtseize (the 2 life is too valuable, and the information advantage isn't as necessary) -- Side in Spell pierce. Perhaps Inquisition of Kozilek could be used, as it is very strong in this matchup as well. Obviously, it doesn't replace Thoughtseize in the main though, as we have too many targets above 3cc to hit in general.
Use Exhume instead of Reanimate when possible.





peace,
4eak

[jazzykat]

Hey 4eak, thanks for weighing in on my ideas and problems.

Cutting some Frantic Searches: I have already been experimenting with 3 and I surely didn't miss 1. Perhaps 2 is a happy number if you are to run 6 creatures or perhaps a MD sickening dreams?

Null Rod: Your arugments make sense. I usually run 2, and use them as part of an anti hate suite. However, given that QP is so often played that is probably a dumb idea. I guess I should put them away again. I have to admit I am total trash at SBing because IMO this deck is so overpowered I just normally stomp over people regardless of what I do (zoo excluded, and D&T/UW Tempo are tight). I know which way I'm taking the deck (fast combo/slow control) only slightly before they do most of the time.

Zoo: Thanks for the tips.

Regarding your SB: I honestly can't make heads or tails out of what your plan would be given all the singletons. Given that you are taking the deck to a more controllish direction can you put up some sb schemes for matches you feel comfortable weighing in on?

Thanks

[Shabbaman]

4eak, regarding your list: wouldn't it make more sense to run a tutorable Show and Tell instead of a single Careful Study?

[4eak]

@ jazzykat


Regarding your SB: I honestly can't make heads or tails out of what your plan would be given all the singletons. Given that you are taking the deck to a more controllish direction can you put up some sb schemes for matches you feel comfortable weighing in on?

I have to admit, I don't think my take is much more controllish than anyone else's. After doing the math (and playtesting), I disagree that Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual (beyond the 1st) actually speeds the deck up. I do believe I'm maximizing the speed of the deck, albeit with as few diminishing returns in the control department as possible. The mystical tutor toolbox, alongside the blue cantrip/permission shell gives us flexibility, without losing much speed. I don't feel games 2/3 are substantially slower, as I very rarely side out relevant combo pieces, but rather they are simply more equipped after sideboarding for more specific situations. I'm usually only siding in 3-5 cards on average.

I totally agree that my SB looks insane/stupid for most Legacy decks. However, I consider it a bit more reasonable for a tutor/wish board. Let me try to explain so I don't look so crazy. =)

My very generic sideboard strategy:


Identify and board out the less-than-useful (if not outright useless) reanimation targets. I'd wager 2-3 targets (which vary widely from match to match) on average come out.
Identify and board in the relevant cards against expected opposing GY hate and Stack control (Chalice/CB). These usually are some combination of Stifle/Trickbind/Krosan Grip/Nature's Claim/Hurkyl's Recall. Generically, 1 Stifle/1 Claim.
Compare the value of Daze/Thoughtseize/Echoing Truth to sideboarded control cards and silverbullets; board accordingly.
Consider the lifeloss concerns of Reanimate or the symmetry of Exhume--sometimes siding a singleton may be correct. especially if you have a lot to board in.

If you want more details about specific matchups, just ask. I'll give some commentary on my sideboard choices for now:

Spell Pierce:

Strong substitute where Thoughtseize's lifeloss is bad. I still love to have 1 Thoughtseize (or Duress) in games 2/3, as sometimes I really need to see their hand.
Very useful in the control role, for example, when we face Storm combo.
Good against creature-light tempo decks.

Show and Tell:

When any random creature + minimal protection would win it (and I'm not boarding out many targets).
Excellent when facing exceptional amounts of disruption.
Wide range of cards in the main it can substitute, well beyond the usual, such as: Reanimate, Exhume, Ponder and Careful Study.
Don't board it in against decks which have something awesome to play off it (e.g. Progenitus, etc.)

Extract:

If resolved, generally an auto-win against plain ANT (they will rarely have Tendrils in hand).
If possible, Thoughtseize before you go for Extract.
If Tendrils is in hand, go for IGG (or the most relevant engine available).
Useless against Burning Wish -- board Extract wisely (never against Red splashed Storm combo)!
Rarely necessary against NOProg (I don't suggest boarding it in). Decks which rely too heavily upon NOProg combo are almost always raped by Perish.

Perish:

Generally worth a slot against deck which play Qasali Pridemage + Goyf + at least another Green creature (Noble Hierarch, Wild Nacatl, etc.)
Pwns Elves (obviously, not a real reason; this is icing on the cake, before you drop Iona or Blazing Archon)
Answers Progenitus (which can race us)

Krosan Grip (these are going to seem obvious):

Counterbalance
Chalice@1 and 2
Hitting stack control, prison pieces, and GY-hate through permission. This let's you keep your other control cards for either stopping them from directly winning or forcing through your win.
Run multiples, as many of the pieces it is designed to hit will prevent us from digging for it.

Reverent Silence:

Very niche card -- but stunning against the decks where it is useful. I could easily see someone not having this in the sideboard.
Game 3, against Leyline (or if you absolutely know they have Leyline, like a strict Eva Green list)
Enchantress (especially those which have begun introducing anti-Iona features.)
Other prison/control decks with Propaganda/Moat/Ghostly Prison/Wheel of Sun and Moon/etc.
Don't fetch/play a forest card until right before you cast it.

Hurkyl's Recall:

Multiple artifact GY-hate cards
Artifact lock components (Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack, CoW, Meekstone)
Considered Rebuild against Chalice@2, but mana denial is too effective and common in decks where this effect is necessary to risk playing a 3cc version.

Nature's Claim:

The cheapest answer to artifact and enchantment GY hate, and pretty much most of the permanent which worry us will be artifacts/enchantments.
Destroying is so much better than bouncing in many circumstances.
Can be cast at any time, requires no preconditions. It is much more versatile than Stifle against GY-hate.

Extirpate:

Obviously for opposing GY-combos.
Split second and information advantage (both hand and library) is useful gravy.
Can make corner-case plays and is acceptable against long-term control battles.

Ravenous Trap:

I despise the fact that this card telegraphs so much information. Decks which can play around it will. I prefer to have 2 GY hate cards though.
It is a full GY-sweep, and it is useful where Extirpate may not be.

Sickening Dreams:

Clears the board and discards creatures.
Very useful against the swarm-based tempo matches-- Merfolk, D&T, Goblins.
Another answer to tokens en masse.

Stifle:

Fills in the gaps that Nature's claim cannot against GY-hate (while also hitting crypt/relic) -- Faerie Macabre for example.
Quite a versatile card. It has many targets beyond GY-hate.
Painful in that it must be used at the same time that you force your opponent to use an activated ability (which can be mana intensive).

Trickbind:

Sometimes paying another mana for the split second is worth it.
Breaks information symmetry of Mystical tutor better than Stifle.



@ Shabbaman

wouldn't it make more sense to run a tutorable Show and Tell instead of a single Careful Study?
It isn't unreasonable at all. You obviously don't need a reanimation spell in this case, plus you can avoid the rare maindeck GY hate.

I still prefer Careful Study. Having a reanimation spell in hand is very rarely a problem (we run 8). Careful study is not dead by itself, and Show and Tell is dead by itself. Careful Study is also very mana efficient. You can combo off 1 or 2 land using Careful Study, but you can't with Show and Tell. Careful Study can also simultaneously dig for cards while pitching your needed target. Show and Tell is also a risk -- it sucks against decks which might have something big to play off it.

Careful study is a much better early game Mystical tutor target, which is what I really want in game 1. Let's say its game 1, I'm on the play, and I keep a reasonable hand with both Mystical tutor and, unfortunately, the exact target that I want in my GY (which I didn't know until I saw what my opponent was playing on his turn 1). With Careful Study in the deck, I'd be in great shape to combo on turn 2 or 2 with Reanimate or Exhume + Land in hand (or in the 2 drawn from Careful study). Mystical for Show and Tell is terrible here, as I'm missing a chance to draw a land (mystical's fault), and I'm unlikely to have 3 land by turn 3. Worse, if the opposing deck has mana denial, I may get to 3-mana far too late. Without Careful Study, and assuming I don't have Brainstorm/Fetch + Entomb, I'd Mystical for Thoughtseize (far inferior play to CStudy) on my own hand before tutoring Show and Tell.

I think Show and Tell is slow and unnecessary for game 1. I think it really shines in games 2 and 3.




peace,
4eak

[practical joke]

I don't think you are crazy.
Since you have a more controllish version and slightly slower than mine, I can't see why sickening dreams is worth playing over, for example.

damnation or infest?

The rest of your sideboard makes complete sense with 4 mystical and 3 ponder. Now what I do wonder is why you chose for only 2 graveyard hate cards.

I still prefer the speed of 4 petals and 4 studies and playing 3 iona. ( this will rarely change after boarding, since there are only a very very few matches where iona cannot win the game)

I will never say my build is best, but I always worry a bit that the ponder builds are struggling a lot more against counterbalance. ( i chose this built for GP Madrid because I expected a lot of counterbalance.)


There's one thing I do worry about with your sideboard.
Are you always finding the boarded cards without betraying your hand. like having to search for it too often or not having it when it matters.
I also don't think a 4th ponder is really necessary with that single carefull study replacing the 4th.

[konsultant]

I will never say my build is best, but I always worry a bit that the ponder builds are struggling a lot more against counterbalance..

I have been running 4x Ponder and 4x Careful Study with zero mana accel for months now and I have yet to have problems with Counterbalance. I do run heavy discard usually between 6-8 post board. Between Force, Daze, Discard and Wipe Away or Rushing River I'm not really worried about Counterbalance at all. The extra draw does mean the deck can never be turn one and in such is less explosive but it has numerous ways to be turn two and is consistantly almost always by turn 3 with 1-2 pieces of disruption.

I admit I have not tested the deck without Ponder in along time but I feel that without the full amount of draw in the deck there would be too many mulligans or "prayer hands" where you are praying something doesn't get countered or that they don't have a removal spell for Archon etc...

[4eak]

@ practical joke


Since you have a more controllish version and slightly slower than mine....

I have previously outlined why Lotus Petal is not actually faster. There are only a small percentage of hands which are actually faster using Lotus Petal instead of Land. You lose more speed overall though, as there are opportunity costs to playing mana acceleration instead of Land. Mana acceleration translates into higher mulligan rates, an inability to dig as efficiently or effectively, a lack of resilience to mana denial, and a weaker set of control options.

Not only is mana acceleration not actually making the deck faster, but its benefits are acquired when you need them the least. The situations where mana acceleration actually makes you a turn faster generally occurs when you've already opened godhands (very often becoming win-more). While playing a normal hand (or worse) though, or while playing against opposing control features, mana acceleration is card disadvantage, and often enough, actually tempo disadvantage.

If we are at an impasse, perhaps you would be interested in a simulation.


I still prefer the speed of 4 petals and 4 studies and playing 3 iona. ( this will rarely change after boarding, since there are only a very very few matches where iona cannot win the game

I find myself reaching for Iona less than you I suppose (which is why I've moved from my original 3 to 2 instead), and also why I'm less convinced by Careful Study. I think there are plenty of matches where Iona is not the correct choice, even from turn 2 or 3. Don't get me wrong though, it is the best overall target beyond a doubt.

One might think that part of our difference in opinion on speed boils down to how we approach the viability of targets differently. Even if Iona/Study is correct, playing lands will still be faster on average.


I can't see why sickening dreams is worth playing over, for example...damnation or infest?

18 land doesn't support it that well. Half the decks I'd want to sweep against are using Wasteland too.


I will never say my build is best, but I always worry a bit that the ponder builds are struggling a lot more against counterbalance. ( i chose this built for GP Madrid because I expected a lot of counterbalance.)
I'm really considering adding another Grip, probably for Trickbind.


There's one thing I do worry about with your sideboard.
Are you always finding the boarded cards without betraying your hand. like having to search for it too often or not having it when it matters.

For hitting GY-hate, I think my odds of drawing are just as good, and Mystical betrays at roughly the same degree (although, my ability to choose split second cards comes up often enough). There are cases where I prefer to reach for one particular piece of GY-hate instead of another, but my overall chance to grab an answer is generally the same as anyone else's. For hitting singletons, I think Ponder builds still have the best chance not to betray too much. For example, I think I'd be more likely to find my singleton Show and Tell or Extract before your GP deck would.





peace,
4eak

[John Rohan]

3. It only puts creatures in the graveyard. Again, this makes little difference; in a reanimator deck, this is usually what you would want to do anyway. On a very rare occasion when ANT is exploding in your face I used entomb to get a Force of will, one misstake they can make when they go off with duress instead of chant.

Can you explain that a little? I'm not sure why you would want to put a FoW in your graveyard.

Also, I should have pointed out that you aren't actually required to put in all 3 creatures with a Buried Alive spell, the card says "up to" 3 creatures.

[whienot]

I think he means in response to Ill-Gotten Gains, you can Entomb FoW and get Force, blue card, X (Probably Entomb) back.

[jazzykat]

Has anyone considered a hybridization of Show and Tell and Reanimate/Exhume by using Living Wish. It would obviously slow the deck down, but if it could be crafted in such a way to have minimal dead MD cards we can increase the amount of business,control, or whatever.

Also, we are always concerned about answers to hate. Given my recent misadventures with zoo (and Mono Red Sligh last night) I was also thinking about EE as a way to blow away crypts, relics, nacatls, and/or goyfs.

My gut feeling is that I have to learn how to play the deck better because its raw power may be giving me a false sense of proficiency. That and you often win via blowout (i.e. Ionna turn 2, they have no chance often).

Anyway, I throw the ideas out here because:
I don't believe that Reanimator has been completely optimized
I think it is the most powerful deck in the format in an average to good player's hands (I think AdNT is the best deck, but you must be an incredible pilot)
and on a more personal note:
I love swinging with big dudes, I finally get to have a balance between the competitor and the little kid with a craw wurm (or dinosaur....Terastodon anyone?) fascination that fight in my head all the time.

[Shabbaman]

EE... you can't tutor it. That aside, you have to put a lot of mana in EE to get rid of goyfs. If you're afraid of green creatures you could better run something like Hibernation (tutorable), or perhaps something like Shriekmaw. As far as sweepers go, to get rid of Tarmogoyf right away you need four mana. I can think of some sweepers for four mana that are tutorable. If you can spread the cost over two turns, perhaps you're not as much in a hurry as you thought you were. In that case you can tutor up Hibernation or whatever.

Perhaps it's an idea to see if the old build with zombie infestation and burning wish still works. That should be pretty solid against zoo.

[John Rohan]

EE... you can't tutor it. That aside, you have to put a lot of mana in EE to get rid of goyfs. If you're afraid of green creatures you could better run something like Hibernation (tutorable), or perhaps something like Shriekmaw. As far as sweepers go, to get rid of Tarmogoyf right away you need four mana. I can think of some sweepers for four mana that are tutorable. If you can spread the cost over two turns, perhaps you're not as much in a hurry as you thought you were. In that case you can tutor up Hibernation or whatever.

Perhaps it's an idea to see if the old build with zombie infestation and burning wish still works. That should be pretty solid against zoo.

If you're splashing green, Pernicious Deed is THE way to get rid of Goyfs. In fact, it easily gets rid of SDT, Counterbalance, Wild Nacatl, Zombies, Elves, etc, everything, while leaving your fat creatures alone. The only drawback is that it will destroy Animate Dead as well.

[Davetradint]

Pernicious Deed....
EE is not tutorable, neither is Deed.
EE Costs up to 2 mana if you want to get rid of Goyfs, Deed 3, and then activate....
Both are bad choices, IMHO, because you must run at least 3 in your SB to find them easily (without tutors), they need a lot of mana and they die to Qasali, Grip etc...

Perish is great versus Zoo, I only have 1 and should add the second to my SB. Tutorable and easy to cast, especially if you play rituals...

You can destroy their dudes and then reanimate some goyf 4/5. That's funny :P

[John Rohan]

EE Costs up to 2 mana if you want to get rid of Goyfs, Deed 3, and then activate....
Both are bad choices, IMHO, because you must run at least 3 in your SB to find them easily (without tutors), they need a lot of mana and they die to Qasali, Grip etc...

Perish is great versus Zoo, I only have 1 and should add the second to my SB. Tutorable and easy to cast, especially if you play rituals...

But the thing about Deed is that it destroys everything below the mana you put in it. For example, while EE would destroy Goyf and CB, Deed will destroy Goyf, CB, SDT, Mongoose, Kird Ape, Nacatl, Pithing Needle, etc. I just think that if you already splash in Green for Grip, you might as well use it for something else as well.

Perish is good too, but remember to watch out for your own green creatures (Empyrial Archangel, possilby Hellkite Overlord)

[Folkien]

Extract:
[LIST]
Useless against Burning Wish -- board Extract wisely (never against Red splashed Storm combo)!


I beg to disagree, but since M10 was released, the "wish cards" works only with your side cards, cause now if a card is exiled it's still in one of the games zone - 10/1/2009: You can't acquire exiled cards because those cards are still in one of the game's zones. - so is not a problem agains t ANT with red splash or any red combo.

[menace13]

I beg to disagree, but since M10 was released, the "wish cards" works only with your side cards, cause now if a card is exiled it's still in one of the games zone - 10/1/2009: You can't acquire exiled cards because those cards are still in one of the game's zones. - so is not a problem agains t ANT with red splash or any red combo.


I think he meant that due to Wish they can just wish for the copy of the extracted card in the sb-Tendril- and not the zone itself . At least that is what i assumed.

Has anyone tried Fleshbag in the mirror opposed to Gilded Drake? I am having a hard time battling thru main deck Relics esp game 1 think 2 SnT main will do the trick(my sb is green splash 18 land)? Null Rod seems better to me than destroying a single copy.

[JonBarber]

I played 4eak's list at my local tourny today. My report can be read here if aynone is interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17203-Intro-to-Animation-RIT

[Jon Stewart]

I know that this is the U/B Reanimator thread, but I don't have the cards to build that quite yet. Do you guys have any suggestions to improve my mono B Reanimator deck. This is what it looks like...


4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead

3 Beseech the Queen
1 Nev's Disk

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive

1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Empyrical Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

3 Dark Ritual
19 Swamp

//Sideboard
3 Mishra's Factory- Answers hate cards like Edict/Pox/Innocent Blood/Gatekeeper while boosting your land count to let you Beseech for Disk.
3 Nev's Disk - Answers every nonland hate card in the game.

I play Mishra's Factory in the board so that they could block aggro cards (will trade with a 3/3, and answer landstills Factories) while also letting you boost your land count so that you could Beseech for Disk.

Alix Hatfield played Dryad Arbor in the board, presumably to bring in against Edict/Pox/Innocent Blood/Gatekeeper effects.

I would much rather side Mishras Factories than Dryad Arbor.

Factories in the board are solid against all sorts of random aggro matchups, throwing out 3/3 walls that also can serve as protection against Edict effects, they can trade with a Nacatl and several other legacy creatures and they are great at slowing down goblins, merfolk and landstill by atleast a turn.

If you need a few turns to find your combo pieces and resolve them, Factories can save your butt against aggro.

You can freely swing with your Iona, Archangel or Inkwell while leaving the Factory to use as a blocker without having to worry about them attacking you with enough creatures over the course of two turns to drop your life total to nothing (or to kill your Archangel as happened three times in the GP semifinals between Reanimator and Zoo).

And best of all, unlike Dryad Arbor, Factories don't have summoning sickness so you can tap them for mana the turn you cast them.

You just have to leave them untapped if you want to use them to protect against Edict/Pox/Innocent Blood/Gatekeeper effects but only AFTER you get a big guy onto the board (ie. Only when you have the advantage) so that you can deal with Edict.


I revised my list a bit making it a lot more resilient.

I realize how awesome Beseech the Queen is. It gets you either Entomb, Buried Alive or a Reanimate effect based on exactly which card you need at that moment.

Best of all, it can be used to grab a Nev's Disk against Leyline, double Chalice, Countertop, Worship, Noetic Scales or other resolved hate cards. You will also play more Disk's in the board to help get it.

To support these higher casting cost spells, I play fewer Dark Rituals and more swamp. Unlike most decks, it's not as important that you Dark Ritual on the first turn. You never want to see multiple Dark Rituals in the same game anyways. You mainly use Dark Ritual to play Disk.


Yes I know monoblack is easier to hate but I really like how much more consistent mono black is compared to U/B. I pretty much never fail to play a Reanimate effect on a big fatty by turn 3 at the latest, almost always with Discard backup. It plays a lot more reanimate spells, and a lot more ways to get cards into the yard (including the discard spells that can target yourself) and overall, I love the feel of the deck. And as I already said, I don't have the cards to build B/U so that's not an option for me.

As you can see, all my discard can be used to target myself to discard my own creatures. Between that and the tutoring (Entomb/Buried Alive) and the ridiculously high number of Reanimate effects I play, I pretty much never have to worry about not having the cards to combo out. And usually, I can combo out multiple times per game and easily recover from countermagic or my threats getting destroyed somehow.

Do you guys have any tweaks or suggestions? I'm desperately looking for sideboard answers to hate.

Nev's Disk seems like the best option so far. I can cast it with a ritual on turn 2, and it destroys Leyline and every other hate piece without effecting my board at all. And obviously, Pithing Needle is in the board as well.

[Davetradint]

I went to a 99 ppl tournament and ended up in 12th place, just neede one more point for the top8.
Won against: Dredge, mirror, Goblins, Goblins, Supreme blue.
Lost against: Zoo and Merfolk: both 2-1, winnable but I still need more testing.

I'm very happy with the deck, it's awesome and able to play aggresively and put the big dude on the table as well as play a more controllish role and try to go off protected.

Just a couple of notes:
Sphinx is brutal action against goblins. I still want to try Akroma, but the vigilance + lifelink (especially lifelink) rules!
Iona was (today) the least chosen critter...
The mana base must be stable. If anyone is trying a green splash for SB, do noy use bayou. Instead, try Tropical Island. We need blue mana to draw and have some action. Black is really only used to go off...
I don't like aggresive mulliganing, but sometimes it's what you have to do, this is the reason why I lost 2 rounds.
I'm getting fed up with my single S&T maindeck, how many times you have the critter you need in your hand?
I Will come back with more testing soon!

[John Rohan]

I know that this is the U/B Reanimator thread, but I don't have the cards to build that quite yet. Do you guys have any suggestions to improve my mono B Reanimator deck. This is what it looks like...

I've tested mono B reanimator, and while it is fast, and kicks a lot of ass, it just gets slaughterd by MUC or by counterbalance decks. You could mitigate this a bit by using some 3 or 4 cc reanimate spells like Victimize, or Dread Return.

Plus, while you can search for your reanimate targets, you can't search for any other parts of the combo (unless you use expensive tutors like Diabolic Tutor or Diabolic Intent).

Nev's disk is probably a good idea, it's the only way you can get rid of pesky artifacts or enchantments - i would maindeck a couple actually.

If you don't have the right cards for B/U Reanimator, consider trying B/G or B/W. Then you get access to a whole host of useful spells like StP, Grip, Disenchant/Naturalize, Life/Death (now you could use both sides of the card), Deed, Devout Witness, Vindicate, etc.

Edit: Funeral Charm is also worth considering. It gives you discard ability (on yourself or opponent) as well as limited creature removal and attack options.

[Jon Stewart]

Do you guys think there is any chance Dance of the Dead is better than Life/Death? I hate having to sac a ton of life for Life/Death.


I've tested mono B reanimator, and while it is fast, and kicks a lot of ass, it just gets slaughterd by MUC or by counterbalance decks. You could mitigate this a bit by using some 3 or 4 cc reanimate spells like Victimize, or Dread Return.

Plus, while you can search for your reanimate targets, you can't search for any other parts of the combo (unless you use expensive tutors like Diabolic Tutor or Diabolic Intent).

Nev's disk is probably a good idea, it's the only way you can get rid of pesky artifacts or enchantments - i would maindeck a couple actually.

If you don't have the right cards for B/U Reanimator, consider trying B/G or B/W. Then you get access to a whole host of useful spells like StP, Grip, Disenchant/Naturalize, Life/Death (now you could use both sides of the card), Deed, Devout Witness, Vindicate, etc.

This is all excellent advice. Thank you. I will go up to 18 or maybe even 19 land and maindeck 2 Nev's Disk, sideboard 2 more, and play 2 Necromancy in the sideboard.

It is not true that black doesn't have any solid tutors. Beseech the Queen is an excellent tutor that can always get you exactly what you need (if you need a creature, you can use it to get Entomb).

I am considering B/W Reanimator. Vindicate seems really solid. Disenchant is great for the board. Possibly, Gerrard's Verdict could take the place of one my weaker discard spells. It too can be used to target myself to discard a creature in a pinch. And StP/Path can be a huge help in the board. Any suggestions.

[jazzykat]

I went to a 99 ppl tournament and ended up in 12th place, just neede one more point for the top8.
Won against: Dredge, mirror, Goblins, Goblins, Supreme blue.
Lost against: Zoo and Merfolk: both 2-1, winnable but I still need more testing.


Congratulations! Any chance for a report? Especially on goblins.

[Davetradint]

I took no notes during the games but I remember some plays and rounds.

R1 vs Dredge: He's playing the ledless version. I use my brainstorms to protect me against his therapies. He muligans to 6 both times. First game I get a Blazing Archon very soon and he dredges a couple of times but has nothing to do. Second game he has a slower hand and no hate (he draws a leyline of the void during the game) so I manage to get archon again and finally Iona too. He concedes and we talk about both decks.
2-0 3pts

R2 vs Reanimator: He opens with an Island and then polluted delta, i think he may play ANT but he casts entomb and both know aht we're playing. After some turns, I get Iona naming black and he desperately tries to draw/find some removal, but he cannot.
Game 2 he seizes me and takes entomb, i still have reanimate and some action. He counters my entomb efforts while he puts his Iona in his graveyard. He reanimates his Iona and i have no counters, so I must brainstorm in response and get Reanimate, land, Chain of Vapor. I let his Reanimate resolve and pray... He names black, good news!!! EoT i Chain his Iona. I have Empyrial and Iona in my grave, but if I exhume, he'll get his Iona for free, so I don't play my Exhume, instead I Reanimate HIS Iona. He's at 9. He is astonished and asks the judge if Reanimate can take opponents' dudes. Judge says so and he concedes. Remember this: Reading is tech!!!
2-0 6pts

R3 vs Zoo: First game he opens with mountain and I entomb a Sphinx. He cannot race the lovely critter and I have Fow backup just to stop those PtE. Game 2 I expect hate and I keep a slow hand. That was my mistake. I am unable to get my anti-hate pieces and he wins. Game 3 I keep a hand with a single Bayou and get no more lands, so I am unable to Exhume my Sphinx, neither brainstorm into goodness nor Daze anything....
1-2 6pts

That was the build mistake. We need black just to entomb + reanimate, but blue is needed to draw/find anything.... next time I'll change my manabase.

R4 vs Goblins: I cannot remember very well both rounds against goblins, but here are some notes:
We MUST counter Vial. If they get many dudes online, we'll be unable to race them. Lackey is annoying too. And the most important thing may be Siege-gang commander. Why?
Sphinx won me both rounds (2-0 and 2-1) but I had a situation where he attacked me with many dudes including a SGC. I blocked this critter with Sphinx, and before dealing damage he sacrificed it to deal damage to me. This way my sphinx dealt no damage so no lifelink... I managed to win tht game but this is something to bear in mind. They can "steal" those 6 life when they attack.
I also include 1x Infest in my SB, so I always use it as a sweeper. Sphinx is the MVP, I'll try Akroma,but I'm really happy with the Sphinx.
The mistake my opp made was attacking with SGC, so I blocked and forced him to use it only once, had he attacked with all the other dudes I wouldn't have won the game.
2-0 9pts

R5 vs Merfolk: This was really sad. I won the first match with a Blazing archon and he had no bouncers. Game 2 I keep a bad hand and lose therefore. He was playing 4x counterspell and only 2x Force of will.... A young boy in his first tournament.... Game 3 I got manascrewed and the Bayou undoubtedly needed to be replaced by a Tropical I. The boy managed to Top8 and I congrat him.
1-2 9pts

R6 vs Gobs again. See above + Stingscourger can be played from a Vial and kill your Iona naming red, be careful, use instead Archangel or Sphinx.
2-1 12 pts

R7 vs Supreme Blue (no goyfs) I manage to drop an Inkwell friend and he tries to draw, draw draw look Top, look Top but find nothing. Shroud rocks!! Game 2 we have a very nice counterwar during 3 turns. I seize him a couple of times and cast Reanimate, countered, Exhume, countered, Exhume, he pierces, I daze, He fows, I daze, he counters. My turna again I Exhume (yes, i got 4x reanimate spells and many business) I manage to drop an Empyrial and he fails to find a removal/bouncer. Shroud for the win.
2-0 15 pts

I was very satisfied with the deck and a proper build is able to fight many situations. I'll play this month 2 more tournaments with the deck, so I'll try to make a better report. Sorry :P If anyone is interested I can post the decklist too.

[jazzykat]

Yes, please put up the decklist. I'm getting more and more frustrated with Empyrial Archangel. I found goblins tough because of instigator+lackey+vial and the fact that they then can tutor up Weirding :( I guess you stomped them regardless.

[practical joke]

I still have my akroma all suit up for the switches in sideboard.

A few thins that makes akroma win vs goblins instead of sphinx. The sheer speed, HASTE! The fact that it CAN block the piledriver.
There have been a few situations where I lost a game ( not the match) against goblins due to double piledriver and a few goblins beating me for 30+ in the process. Great unblockable mayhem.

Mono-red goblins are easy. If they go land, vial go. I know I win, that means their first goblin will be attacking on T3.
By that time you should have yourself suited up for a sphinx.

Akroma also won me every match against B/R goblins in GP Madrid, is also quite nice against hex-mage DD combo, and against a whole lot of random.

@ 4eak: some number crunching would be nice for the 18 lands. I don't have the time to do a lot of calculations myself.

[Davetradint]

A few thins that makes akroma win vs goblins instead of sphinx. The sheer speed, HASTE! The fact that it CAN block the piledriver.


That's why I cannot tell if Sphinx is better or worse. I just can say it worked great for me. Being able to block Piledriver surely saves you from 14+ damage when they have a horde online.
@Practical joke: Have you ever missed the lifelink ability? If you have to Reanimate Akroma and go down to 11 life (just an example), it's enough to win the race? I'd like to hear from your experience :)
Against B/R gobs surely Akroma shines. Both decks i faced were mono-R.

The list I played:

3x Underground Sea (mistake!! Should play the 4th)
1x Bayou (It wrecked my manabase, should be the 4th U.Sea)
2x Swamp
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest (Thinking of a split 2/2 with Verdant C.)

4x Thoughtseize (I like them, better protected than explosive just my opinion)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical tutor
4x Careful Study (I wish I could play 8 entombs)
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Show and Tell (thinking of getting rid of it)
1x Echoing Truth

2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon

Sideboard:
3x Extirpate
3x Spell Pierce
2x Perish
1x Infest
2x Krosan Grip
1x Reverent Silence
1x Nature's Claim (I'd add the second)
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

A very few times i'd love to go faster but I found it's not really necessary. Being 1 turn slower but better protected feels good for me. Those with more experience can talk better about the differences in builds with Petal/Ritual and so on.

[JonBarber]

That's why I cannot tell if Sphinx is better or worse. I just can say it worked great for me. Being able to block Piledriver surely saves you from 14+ damage when they have a horde online.
@Practical joke: Have you ever missed the lifelink ability? If you have to Reanimate Akroma and go down to 11 life (just an example), it's enough to win the race? I'd like to hear from your experience :)
Against B/R gobs surely Akroma shines. Both decks i faced were mono-R.

The list I played:

3x Underground Sea (mistake!! Should play the 4th)
1x Bayou (It wrecked my manabase, should be the 4th U.Sea)
2x Swamp
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest (Thinking of a split 2/2 with Verdant C.)

4x Thoughtseize (I like them, better protected than explosive just my opinion)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical tutor
4x Careful Study (I wish I could play 8 entombs)
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Show and Tell (thinking of getting rid of it)
1x Echoing Truth

2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon

Sideboard:
3x Extirpate
3x Spell Pierce
2x Perish
1x Infest
2x Krosan Grip
1x Reverent Silence
1x Nature's Claim (I'd add the second)
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

A very few times i'd love to go faster but I found it's not really necessary. Being 1 turn slower but better protected feels good for me. Those with more experience can talk better about the differences in builds with Petal/Ritual and so on.

Never cut seas. Cut a basic for the bayou. Personally, i run a trop and a bayou so that I can get what I need when I need it. Was 16 lands enough?

As a Goblins player myself, warren weirding is THE way to beat reanimator. Therefore, if they are playing R/B and you decide to go the Iona, you should probably name black. Vial will be able to get goblins in regardless.

[practical joke]

Akroma is awesom-o-sauce!

What akroma does best is killing goblins a turn faster, ignoring their only hope for a piledriver kill.
Anything else? thoughtseize/daze :)

As for warren weirding? we have near 15-16 answer to their 3 warren weirding.

examples: daze ( will probably fail), fow, thoughtseize, reanimate a goblin a second creature, keep exhuming ftw = p
Even if they manage a pily or a siege-gang out of a lackey. They still can hardly push 10 damage a turn without a piley and through an akroma.
She's delicious!

iona's crap in that match-up.
Yet to keep her in and will still remain calling red.
It'll slow them down a lot and they MUST have a warren weirding in order to win.
A simple vial without stingscourchers is not enough.

[JonBarber]

Akroma is awesom-o-sauce!

What akroma does best is killing goblins a turn faster, ignoring their only hope for a piledriver kill.
Anything else? thoughtseize/daze :)

As for warren weirding? we have near 15-16 answer to their 3 warren weirding.

examples: daze ( will probably fail), fow, thoughtseize, reanimate a goblin a second creature, keep exhuming ftw = p
Even if they manage a pily or a siege-gang out of a lackey. They still can hardly push 10 damage a turn without a piley and through an akroma.
She's delicious!

iona's crap in that match-up.
Yet to keep her in and will still remain calling red.
It'll slow them down a lot and they MUST have a warren weirding in order to win.
A simple vial without stingscourchers is not enough.

Don't forget Goblins have 8 ways to find weirding/piledriver. I'm just making the point because I have yet to lose the reanimator matchup when playing Goblins. Especially post board where you have to play around hate, the matchup becomes a lot harder.

[John Rohan]

Akroma is awesom-o-sauce!

What akroma does best is killing goblins a turn faster, ignoring their only hope for a piledriver kill.
Anything else? thoughtseize/daze :)

Akroma's main drawback is that it's prot-black, so you can't use Animate Dead. But if you aren't using that spell anyway, then it's not a problem. Still, I would sideboard it. There is too much removal that can get rid of it.

BTW, the other Akroma, Angel of Fury, is often overlooked. But it's got some interesting advantages:

1. Protection from blue and white covers against most of the best removal spells.
2. The morph ability can be used as a back-up way to get it in graveyard. Cast morph for 2/2 creature, attack or block with it, and after it dies it's in the graveyard so you can reanimate it.
3. As I found out in one match, allso good against Dragon Stompy - if your opponent has Blood Moon out, you can pump it up or even hardcast it.

[Justin]

Never cut seas. Cut a basic for the bayou. Personally, i run a trop and a bayou so that I can get what I need when I need it. Was 16 lands enough?

As a Goblins player myself, warren weirding is THE way to beat reanimator. Therefore, if they are playing R/B and you decide to go the Iona, you should probably name black. Vial will be able to get goblins in regardless.

I actually disagree with this last statement. You should normally name "red" with Iona unless you know that they are not playing Stingscourger. If you name black, they can play it, or play Matron or Ringleader to fetch it (not to mention all their other spells). If you name red, then they are probably dead if they don't have a Weirding in hand or are able to get one by vialing in a Matron. As a Goblin player myself, it makes sense to run at least one Stingscourger in your maindeck (I personally run three). Yeah, Weirding is still better than Stingscourger against Shroud guys, but both cards can equally deal with Iona. Plus, bouncing her back to the hand is rougher than putting her back in the yard.

[whienot]

Alix Hatfield played 1 Dryad Arbor in the board, presumably to bring in against Edict effects. Against Goblins it's even a surpise blocker for Lackey and can be reanimated for additional edict protection.

[Jon Stewart]

I would much rather side Mishras Factories than Dryad Arbor.

Factories can serve as protection against Edict effects, they can trade with a Nacatl and several other legacy creatures and they are great at slowing down goblins, merfolk and landstill by atleast a turn. And best of all, they don't have summoning sickness.

You just have to leave them untapped but only AFTER you get a big guy onto the board (ie. Only when you have the advantage) so that you can deal with Edict.

[Vacrix]

Alix Hatfield played 1 Dryad Arbor in the board, presumably to bring in against Edict effects. Against Goblins it's even a surpise blocker for Lackey and can be reanimated for additional edict protection.
LOL the day I have to add Dryad Arbor to my 60 to beat Goblins is the day I stop playing Reanimator and start playing Goblins. Edict protection is a valid point but it doesn't really see play anymore. I'd be more worried about Innocent Blood, though its pretty much the same concept. In losing Putrid Imp we became way more vulnerable to Innocent blood. We play countermagic though, and often discard. Is it really worth a slot in the 60?

[practical joke]

If you play 18 lands, you could really consider the card next 4 misties, 4 verdant, 4 sea, 1 arbor, 1 trop, 1 bayou. basisc etc.

Also I've played against 4 goblin decks on day 1, GP Madrid, 3 of them B/R. They hardly stood a chance, warren weirding and a well-timed reanimate/mystical to exhume or what not is winning you that game.
Sure you lose 1 out of 3. but you win anyways. Having to fight around hate AND weirding makes their deck a lot slower, therefore easier for us to beat them and take some time.
Anarchy, warren weirding and all other possible hate

They don't always have a warren weirding, and they don't always get passed your counters/seizes.

tips and tricks:

get an exhume/force ready. Preferably akroma, if she gets removed there's always a sphinx.
Vials are not that important since their stingscourcher does crap against the 2 pro-red
Always mind a possible anarchy, reanimate a goblin if you have to. ( 1 it's a blocker, 2 you get more goblins if they do have warren weirding.)
In the worst scenaria they cycle a gem-palm, then weirding you. Can happen, we don't always have infinite ammounts of protection ready.

[Jon Stewart]

LOL the day I have to add Dryad Arbor to my 60 to beat Goblins is the day I stop playing Reanimator and start playing Goblins. Edict protection is a valid point but it doesn't really see play anymore. I'd be more worried about Innocent Blood, though its pretty much the same concept. In losing Putrid Imp we became way more vulnerable to Innocent blood. We play countermagic though, and often discard. Is it really worth a slot in the 60?

You're right about Dryad Arbor of course, but what about Factories.

Factories in the board are solid against all sorts of random aggro matchups, throwing out 3/3 walls that also can serve as protection against Edict effects, they can trade with a Nacatl and several other legacy creatures and they are great at slowing down goblins, merfolk and landstill by atleast a turn.

If you need a few turns to find your combo pieces and resolve them, Factories can save your butt against aggro.

You can freely swing with your Iona, Archangel or Inkwell while leaving the Factory to use as a blocker without having to worry about them attacking you with enough creatures over the course of two turns to drop your life total to nothing (or to kill your Archangel as happened three times in the GP semifinals between Reanimator and Zoo).

And best of all, unlike Dryad Arbor, Factories don't have summoning sickness so you can tap them for mana the turn you cast them.

[Vacrix]

Factories isn't a bad idea, its just suboptimal IMO because the space can be put to better use. If I did it at all, it would be in a Standstill heavy meta. Randomly blocking aggro creatures is surely a plus, and it is also protection against Innocent Blood etc. Keep in mind, though; the decks that play Innocent Blood effects like Rock often play LD as well. Wasteland and Sinkhole ruin the entire plan to activate Factory in response to Innocent Blood, unless of course your opponent is completely incompetent. In that sense, Fetch --> Arbor is a much stronger play. Even then, your opponent can wasteland before Innocent Blood resolves. And again, Goblins plays Wasteland and sometimes Port (though not as often these days), and removal. Man lands look decent against Zoo, like you mentioned, but keep in mind that Bolts and Helixes can't really be aimed at our fatties so your opponent can easily save them for the kill, and in the process destroy your man land instead. Even there, you are likely going to cut Cantrips (Careful Study) and/or land in order to fit them in and that takes away from the deck's consistency. I don't think its a strong plan. In general though, Arbor looks much stronger because it only takes up one slot. To put it to better use, such a list ought to run Cabal Therapy too. Its nuts to think that a fetchland could function as another protection spell. What are people cutting from the conventional UBg list to run Arbor? x1 Study? And has anyone tested Cabal Therapy in the Thoughtseize slot? It looks pretty good if you also run x1 Arbor.

[whienot]

I didn't say bring in Dryad to beat Goblins, but to beat Edicts. I was illustrating that it can pull double duty against R/b Goblins. Granted, fetching the Arbor to block Lackey when you're on the draw is absolutely terrible in most circumstances. Hatfield is a respected player and deck builder. When I saw it in his board, I thought it was worth exploring.

Regarding Factory: It's good. But, if were to add colorless lands to my deck it would be Wasteland, and then only if I were playing some number of Stifles main. The deck is very color hungry.

Has anyone lost an Inkwell to Tariff yet?

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

@Pratical Joke: Dryad arbor is really necessary? Why not run Putrid Imp?


And this is my list. If possible, I want comments for it please!

The list I play:

1x Island
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
2x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
-------------------------------------------------------- 17 lands

1x Show and Tell
1x Dark Ritual
2x Careful Study (cutted 2 for more seizes)
3x Ponder (incridible in matches 2-3 for search hates)
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize (more ontrol and protection for the deck)
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical tutor
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume (I was thinking cut one of these and add 1 Study... maybe)
------------------------------------------------------------------- 35 spells

2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Terastodon (Empyrial Archangel...argh!)
1x Blazing Archon
-------------------------------------------------------------- 06 creatures

Sideboard:
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Extirpate
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Extract
1x Show And Tell
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Perish
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Misdirection
1x Wipe Away
2x Stifle

Please, comments!

Thank you,

Lammina

[Davetradint]

I think that we don't need to scr*w our manabase adding manlands or dryads or whatsoever. To avoid edict effects we just have 8 to 12 cards (FoW, daze, Seize). Just play smart!!!

If you play first, use your Seizes or keep hands that are not mediocre. I mean, at least 1 counter.
Try to cut that Vial or the key spells: Lackey or Matron.
If you draw, keep hand with fow for the vial or seize for the warren w.

Just take your time to decide wether your hand is good or not. Then usea Akroma/Sphinx to seal the game.

[XiaN]

You could also run Crovax, Ascendant Hero (http://www.magiccards.info/pc/en/3.html), Pestilence Demon (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/124.html) or Thrashing Wumpus (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/166.html), if Goblins are such a big problem in your meta.

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

@Pratical Joke: Dryad arbor is really necessary? Why not run Putrid Imp?


And this is my list. If possible, I want comments for it please!

The list I play:

1x Island
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
2x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
-------------------------------------------------------- 17 lands

1x Show and Tell
1x Dark Ritual
2x Careful Study (cutted 2 for more seizes)
3x Ponder (incridible in matches 2-3 for search hates)
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize (more ontrol and protection for the deck)
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical tutor
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume (I was thinking cut one of these and add 1 Study... maybe)
------------------------------------------------------------------- 35 spells

2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Terastodon (Empyrial Archangel...argh!)
1x Blazing Archon
-------------------------------------------------------------- 06 creatures

Sideboard:
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Extirpate
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Extract
1x Show And Tell
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Perish
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Misdirection
1x Wipe Away
2x Stifle

Please, comments!

Thank you,

Lammina


Please, sorry for insist, but, someone can help me with my list?

And for the question of the goblins: Thunder Dragon can be the answer!


Cyah,

Lammina

[XiaN]

I would consider to move down to 16 lands. I ran 16 in my reanimator list from the beginning and never had mana problems. I would cut one swamp in your list. And run 4 Polluted Delta.

In the Main i would move the show/tell to the sideboard, remove the dark ritual, add the 4th daze. Oh and Echoing Truth is missing. This card needs a slot, at least in the sb. I have one in the main and it pleases me every time i draw it.

I'm currently struggling with myself whether to use Careful Study or TSeize as self-discard. Currently i'm using Careful Study in the main and 3 TS in the sb. But i can understand the points 4eak had made in his posts. Dunno ... opinions?

[Lammina]

So Xian, should I cut:

-1 S&T;
-1 Dark Ritual; and
-1 Swamp.

And add:

+1 Daze;
+1 Echoing Truth; and
+1 ???? (Careful Study..... another big creature....opinions?)

So, why cut the Ritual and the Show and tell?

Thx for the help,

Lammina

[XiaN]

If you want to run TSeize main, try to use this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-%5BDeck%5D-B-U-Reanimator&p=447576&viewfull=1#post447576) list as a basis. Personally would cut the basics there and add another ponder and TSeize.

Show/Tell : You are only required to run this main if you want to grind out a very big tournament. In these tournaments its not that uncommon that people run maindeck graveyard hate.

Dark Ritual : IMO thats just a greedy idea. I don't see a real reason to run it main.

[jazzykat]

I playtested 3 or 4 matches last night vs. UBr Faeries and I can tell you it was tough I went 1-2 in all of them. IMO the preboard was a little favorable to us, I mean let's face it we have huger dudes and they only have terminate for removal. Postboard I can say is definitely favorable for them, they get hate +REB and we get anti-hate+spell pierce :( Their creature/production is somewhat problematic. Spellstutter stops a bunch of our spells, clique messes with the combo, bitterblossom is 1 life chumps, and tombstalker is pretty big on his own.

Did anyone have a smilar experience? What have you guys done to counteract it?

[John Rohan]

You could also run Crovax, Ascendant Hero (http://www.magiccards.info/pc/en/3.html), Pestilence Demon (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/124.html) or Thrashing Wumpus (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/166.html), if Goblins are such a big problem in your meta.

Midnight Banshee is also a devastating choice against Goblins, Merfolk or Elves, but it was hurting too many of my own creatures so I cut it. It's great though if you only run black creatures. Bogardan Hellkite used to be my answer to Goblins, but I ended up finding Blazing Archon just much more useful for this role.

And to answer Lammina: Thunder Dragon is great, but is it legal? Isn't that only a Portal card?

[practical joke]

Don't make such a mess out of the goblins match-ups!

It's easy as hell! except when they splash for black, but that's learn-to-play or they-just-drew-the-nuts problem ( and even that can be winnable)

so no more goblins mayhem.

@ lammina: the dark ritual is GREAT against decks like treshhold and merfolk. It can give you a bit of speed, while easily avoiding daze and spell pierce. I wouldn't cut it.

Remove the S&T, you have in SB already, add the fourth daze.
add a bounce spell, specially truth is very great. It can give you that single turn you need to bash in brains, bounce ETW tokens or a bunch of goyfs. remove a careful study ( since you already play 3 ponder) or the 6th creature slot ( terrastodon/empyrial) or maybe even the second iona if you really want it. You'll rely on entomb a lot anyways.

About the putrid imp, this card requires the full package of 4. It works, but could've been eaten alive against some other decks. ( DeckCheck somewhere in oktober/november), the arbor shouldn't be needed unless you get in a meta full of R/B goblins, pox, The rock/landstill with sideboarded edict effects.


@ John Rohan: portal cards are legal, just as loyal retainers is legal

@ jazzycat: This is quite the funny and tough match-up. I found Akroma and sphinx of the steel wind to be really strong against this deck. The only thing you need to counter is sower. Otherwise try to race them HARD with an inkwell leviathan. They don't have an extremely aggressive deck, so the inkwell could go all the way. If the game takes longer, make a risk and go for akroma/sphinx. It's quite strong.

[Lammina]

Midnight Banshee is also a devastating choice against Goblins, Merfolk or Elves, but it was hurting too many of my own creatures so I cut it. It's great though if you only run black creatures. Bogardan Hellkite used to be my answer to Goblins, but I ended up finding Blazing Archon just much more useful for this role.

And to answer Lammina: Thunder Dragon is great, but is it legal? Isn't that only a Portal card?

@John: can be trust: legal legacy card, such as the Portal series. The dragon has come in the exile vault: dragons too.

Cyah,

Lammina

[Lammina]

@pratical joke: cut or not (or add) the careful studies? They are SO important to the deck? If we add more discard effects, like Duress in the place?

[practical joke]

You can safely cut to 1 tutortarget careful study since you run 3 ponders and therefore chose to rely more on drawing entomb and the specific reanimation target.
If you read 4eak's posts on how he plays reanimate, you can safely assume, next to his results, that it is a viable approach on playing reanimater.
In worst case scenario you CAN thoughtseize yourself or mystical tutor for that singleton study to get that one creature in your grave you really wanted there. This happens rarely because you can also shuffle back that card in your deck with brainstorm and fetch.

If you know these very important little tricks, you don't have to rely on careful study hits and be able to rely on digging and tutoring for that one important entomb.

It's a way of playing I started to dislike, since it made me rely on that single entomb to much, this is just a personal preference.

[jazzykat]

I am starting to prefer 1 or 2 careful studies and 1 S&T main. I know that others think S&T is dumb but I think it has more merit than others give it credit for especially with 18 lands.

[whienot]

Jazzycat, I've been tinkering with a 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder, 2 Careful Study, 1 Show and Tell configuration and it's been pretty good. While I don't think S&T is needed main, it supplements our primary plan and frees up sideboard space.

The Thunder Dragon is that by the time you want to reanimate him (3+ Gobs on the field), you've already taken substantial damage and a Goblins pilot will recover easily from a sweeper. I stopped boarding aggro specific cards and just bring in bounce for the expected grave hate and to slow them down somewhat.

[Davetradint]

@Practical Joke: Against which other decks do you find Akroma useful? Goblins, UBr Faeries? I see your point, but now if I play Akroma maindeck I have to rearrange my dudes right now:
2x Iona
1x Inkwell L.
1x Empyirial (would cut this one or the sphinx)
1x Blazing A.
1x Sphinx

I am thinking of doign this:
4x Careful Study
1x Show and tell
into:
4x Dark Ritual
1x Careful Study

my meta is full of merfolk and zoo. Maybe rituals can help me through opposing daze effects and keeping 1x Study lets me tutor just if I need it.
The reason is that study allows you to draw into the unknown, but the discarding effect is not as useful as I'd like it to be. Show and tell has a similar issue. You NEED a dude that you may not have right now in your hand.
Perhaps playing 4x daze, 4x FoW, 4x seize and 4x Ritual is a little unstable.
Any comments or experience with this config? Thx!

[Kuh]

If your meta really is that full of Zoo and Merfolk, Dark Ritual can be good, but Thoughtseize or Duress do the same job and they are good in more than just the Aggro MU.

You really need bounce or the Study. We are still playing some sort of Combo Deck, and so you need the manipulation to find yourself what u need the most. And I think that a study (even postboard) with just ONE beast in your hand is always better than Ponder, and with two beasts its just unbelievable good.
So i play my list with 3 beasts in the SB. I run 1 Iona, 1 Sphinx and 1 Terastodon so that i can board out the bad beasts and just have good beasts left, which makes your Study any better.

to the Goblin thing: It is for sure not our best Match-Up, but it is not unwinnable. I assume it is like 50/50 and that without chaning any Dude or anything special just to beat Goblins.

[practical joke]

I have lost only twice against goblins since the unbanning of reanimater.
Once cuz he got the nuts ( double wasteland, lackey, 2 relics and a crypt),
Once cuz he drew the nuts ( triple piley out of a ringleader)

lost that 1-2

and during the GP Madrid since I had to mulligan to 3 and then mulligan to 5 with a mediocre hand.

For all other dozens of matches against goblins I won. even the R/B ones.

It's a very good match-up: they have only 2 threats. a lot of hasty piledrivers and a first turn lackey. If they open first turn vial, you are happy and will not counter it at all.


I play akroma in sideboard, not mainboard. I found her usefull against a lot of homebrew decks, dark temportresh and other decks that have only limited removal target in black. I removed her some time from SB, but then after a few tourney's I really started to miss her inclusion a lot!
Also she can be gamewinning against dredge as well. You might be surprised how strong she is.

I board her in against:

- dredge
- goblins
- aggro-loam
- tempotresh
- UBr fearies, and other feary variants. ( you never know what she's good for)
- Zoo ( domain, naya probably not needed)
- a whole lot of random decks like MBA and mono-brown staxx. ( haste is good! )

[Davetradint]

What do you guys prefer against Zoo?
Iona naming White (for PtE)?
Akroma/Sphinx? (with backup)

I'm trying to find some solution between speed and consistency...

[practical joke]

Depends, since I drop my creatures T1 ( lifeloss) or T2 ( no lifeloss) I mostly hit iona (white)
Those 3 turns are quite hard to beat for them since they can't cast pte,qasali pridemage or lightning helix.
If you do have the protection you can go for sphinx/akroma/iona and take out their first tarmogoyf /removal.

The very few turns they have to win is very low, also I found out EE is a household against these decks. ( I still play 2 in my SB, If I draw them they are great, if not, I win it the natural way)

[Davetradint]

I'm adding 4x Dark ritual to the deck, definately.
It gains speed while maintaining its consistency. I've taken out S&T from the mainboard, maybe i'll put it in the SB. Must think about it...
I have taken the playset of Studies (Rituals in those slots). It will improve the speed of the deck as many of you already know, but also help casting Sb choices as infest, perish, etc.

I took EE from the sideboard, I didn't like it. you know: not tutorable, expensive in mana terms, must protect until you sac...

Another doubt I have right now is wether to change Misty R. for some Verdant C. ... If I am to play 4 U.Sea and a Tropical Island, should I use a mixture of both fetchs as well as deltas?

How many basic lands are you guys using right now??

[jazzykat]

Has anyone tried the Alix Hatfield List. In the interview he says he wanted to play with the numbers. In theory I like the explosivesness of the ritual (and anti daze countermeasure) as well as the threat to opponents that a turn 1 win is always possible. I am going to test w/o the S&T MD and with 1 less study. I will up 1 more daze and an echoing truth (the random winnar card) because I feel that with only 4 creatures MD I am much less likely to need to dump or drop from the hand G1. For reference.

4 Brainstorm

4 Mystical Tutor

3 Ponder

2 Careful Study

4 Entomb

4 Reanimate

4 Exhume

1 Show and Tell

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1 Inkwell Leviathan

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Blazing Archon

4 Force of Will

3 Daze

3 Thoughtseize

3 Dark Ritual

4 Underground Sea

4 Polluted Delta

3 Verdant Catacombs

3 Misty Rainforest

2 Swamp

1 Island

SB:

3 Engineered Explosives

3 Tombstalker

2 Stifle

1 Thoughtseize

1 Dryad Arbor

1 Echoing Truth

1 Coffin Purge

1 Rushing River

1 Perish

1 Hurkyl’s Recal

[XiaN]

I'm adding 4x Dark ritual to the deck, definately. It gains speed while maintaining its consistency.
This is definitely not true. Read about this a few pages ago. I think 4eak had made very good points on this issue.


I have taken the playset of Studies (Rituals in those slots).
And this is the wrong way too. If you want to run Rituals, run them in the slot of Ponder. And you need some sort of self-discard. Only Entomb and Brainstorm is not enough or at least to inconsistent, vulnerable and to slow.

Like i said above, read some pages ago. There was also a discussion about whether to use Study or TSeize as self discard. This point is open for discussion :cool:


How many basic lands are you guys using right now??

My manabase currently consists of

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

4 Underground Sea

1 Swamp
1 Island

Note that i'm not running green in the sb. I'm a big fan of Null Rod ( nostalgic reasons and it doesn't mess up the manabase ).

Although i HATE the basics. I can not count the games, where i couldn't protect my T2 reanimate ( Entomb T1, Daze in hand and Reanimate ), because of that fucking Swamp i had in play. Maybe i'll switch them to the missing fetchies.

What do you guys think : Are the basics still needed? Do you ever had problem, when your only land is a basic?

EDIT :


Alix Hatfield List. In the interview ..
Which interview? LinkzZz :laugh:

[Sims]

I've actually run the deck off only my basics against disruption heavy matchups. I cannot imagine taking them out entirely from the list.... and I run more of them than you do.

[jazzykat]

Link to coverage which contains interview. http://jupitergames.net/event-report-041010-legacy-tournament/

[Jon Stewart]

Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?

That's what I am left wondering after this past week of testing sessions.

Me and my friend have been alternating back and forth between playing my Mono B Reanimator deck and his B/U Reanimator deck (a replica of the GP Madrid winning deck), and we're now both fairly convinced that Mono B Reanimator is the overall better performing deck!!

On paper, B/U Reanimator looks a lot more flexible and resilient. But in practice, Black actually has lots of resiliency as well, and what it's lacking in, it more than makes up for in consistency. The Mono B Reanimator deck combos off a LOT faster and more frequently, combos off multiple times in the same game when neccesary, and all this serves to make it a much more brutal deck to contend with for most matchups.

The performance seemed so lopsided, that he is actually switching his B/U deck over to Mono B Reanimator this weekend.

There's a couple of reasons why I think this is so...

A.) Black already is more than capable of answering everything. I play 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask, 2 Cabal Therapy and even sideboard 4 Duress. If I see more hate, I would maindeck the Duress. Those cards are honestly as good as countermagic. It's hard to overstate how useful it is to know every single card in your opponent's hand. You know exactly what the right play is at any time because of this.

Usually, if I have none of my 4 Entomb or 4 Buried Alive or 3-4 Beseech in my hand, but I do have a creature and I opt not to mulligan, I just draw go to discard the creature the next turn. But if I have discard effects to spare, Thoughtseize, Unmask and Cabal Therapy are also awesome in letting me discard my own creature.

In addition, I play 3-4 Beseech the Queen the deck and a single Nev's Disk as a one of in the maindeck (more in the board that I can bring in. This gives me the perfect out against Leyline, Countertop, Chalice, Swarm Aggro and all sorts of other randomness. And Beseech also helps make the deck a lot more consistent, when it's not answering stuff like Leyline. I play Dark Rituals and 19 Swamp to help me fuel these cards out fast with little difficulty (and I even bring in Mishra's Factories from the board to speed this up. Factories are helpful in holding off aggro and standstill decks are also awesome against Edict/Gatekeeper/Pox effects).

Beseech is an absolutely fantastic tutor (and can always be pitched to Unmask when not needed), and it's another reason to play Mono B.

B.) The deck is a LOT more consistent. Between 4 Entomb, 4 Buried Alive, 3-4 Beseech, being able to discard my own creatures by passing the turn, or by using my discard effects, I almost never need to mulligan and I never have difficulty getting a creature into my yard (even after Bajuka Bog or something cleans out my yard).

Between 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead and 1-2 Life/Death (and Beseech to tutor for more), I never have any difficulty Reanimating creatures, multiple times in a game if neccesary.

Both me and him and our whole store notice that my deck seems to be comboing out faster and more frequently, all while Thoughtseizing/Unmasking away any possible answers my opponents may have in hand.

For reference here is the list I'm currently playing (one of two cards keep switching back and forth but it's always 98% the same). I don't even think it's an optimized list, and I might be better off just playing more lands instead of dark rituals. But nevertheless, the deck still works well.

4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
0/2 Cabal Therapy

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
1 Life/Death
(I've been toying with the idea of playing another Life/Death or maybe Dance of the Dead, or maybe even Necromancy above)

4 Beseech the Queen
1 Nev's Disk (This card has won me so many games and in so many different random situations it's nuts).

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive

1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

3 Dark Ritual
2 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp

My sideboard is probably not optimal, but this is what I went with and it's been working great for me...
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline (This is a flex slot and could be just about anything).
3 Nev's Disk (Disking your opponent is an enormous tempo gain against most every aggro and aggro control matchup, and you can do it on turn three with a Dark Ritual)
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Dark Ritual (It helps vs. combo).
2 Mishra's Factory (Factory is great at getting you the Mana to play disk, while also helping you stall aggro decks or dodge Edict effects. But the card could also be Bajuka Bog if you're not playing Leyline, or Wasteland if you fear Maze of Ith and play fewer creatures with Shroud or something)
Before you are quick to disagree, I urge you to try something like this out.

The deck is incredibly powerful and consistent. Just try it out online if you want (though the shuffler is crap on Workstation).

I am also considering the possibility of perhaps playing 4 Phyrexian Arena in place of Beseech, because of the inherent consistency of the deck. I would consider Confidant but that seems rather suicidal with all the high cc cards.

[Davetradint]

have you tried to take that decklist to a tournament? If you do so, please let us know.
Could you explain how did you test the deck? against which decks? Was the opposing pilot competent? you know, all that stuff.
Thx!

[from Cairo]

On paper, B/U Reanimator looks a lot more flexible and resilient. But in practice, Black actually has lots of resiliency as well, and what it's lacking in, it more than makes up for in consistency. The Mono B Reanimator deck combos off a LOT faster and more frequently, combos off multiple times in the same game when neccesary, and all this serves to make it a much more brutal deck to contend with for most matchups.

I definitely see the potential to go off faster (Dark Ritual), but I have no clue where it would gain improved cosistancy. I guess it gains some resiliancy versus Wasteland. But it drops a huge portion of the card quality filtering (Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder/Careful Study). When the deck doesn't have Entomb in it's hand, Beseech the Queen -> Entomb -> Reanimate effect isn't online until turn 4, where the UB version can still go off turn 2 on some hands without Entomb thanks to Mystical Tutor. I think the card filtering adds both consistancy and flexibility that offer more than the benefits of Mono-Black.

I feel Daze and Force of Will are stronger protection options than Unmask and Cabal Therapy as well.

Really unless you're running into a gigantic amount of non-basic hate I don't see any benefits to running the suggested Mono-Black list over something like the UBg list 4reak posted a few pages back.

[Kuh]

In addition with Brainstorm, und can shuffle crap back into your library.

And do not forget that Mystical Tutor can get you erverything, from Entomb over Exhume to Thoughtseize, FoW or even Perish (Postboard).

And you are totally screwed if someone puts Leyline into play, you have to find a Disk very quickly from that point on. I just think that the Mono B List isn't good at all in handling hate.

I think from the explosivity and consistency you can compare Mono B to Belcher and U/B to ANT. So that means Mono B ist way more explosive, but it will just loose to FoW in Opp's hand. U/B instead can play around it and still win no matter how much hate the opp had.

[Scopeye]

Hi. I have been playing against alot of Reanimator online and having alot of trouble against the U/B versions with Eva Green. What cards are best against reanimator? I have tried leylines but they just tutor for echoing truth, same for crypt -relic- planar void- wheel of sun&moon. Discard is only a stall because as soon as they get to revive they recover from nearly any position.

They are too conditional so I am reluctant about Fearie Macabreand Coffin purge but are they any good?

What do you guys hate most to face?

[troopatroop]

Faerie Macabre and Crypt are tier 1. Coffin Purge is also very good. The best way to beat them is have them attempt reanimation, and remove the creature in response. Macabre is best because it avoids counters and keeps your plan a secret, so I'd try a set of those.

[4eak]

@ Scopeye


Discard is only a stall because as soon as they get to revive they recover from nearly any position.

They are too conditional so I am reluctant about Fearie Macabreand Coffin purge but are they any good?

What do you guys hate most to face?

Personally, I don't consider Reanimator problematic (or popular) enough to warrant specialized sideboarding (perhaps in the future it might?). Eva Green also doesn't have a lot of room in the sideboard, imho. I will admit that Iona on black is almost auto-win against standard Eva Green.

The best tools against Reanimator aren't necessarily all that great against other GY-dependent decks. Coffin Purge, Curfew, Edict effects, Faerie Macabre can be fairly narrow or less-than-ideal against other decks. If you wanted to go overboard, I would suggest diversifying your hate (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wu%20Tang%20Financial) and increasing their numbers. But, you don't really want to do that, do you? (I wouldn't)

Ideas:

Gatekeeper + Edict will force to the Reanimation pilot to choose Iona in many cases, so splashing white for removal is a real option.
Maindeck Faerie Macabre (seems acceptable in aggro-control mono black and B/G decks) -- Discard Stifles and Mac'em in response to Reanimation.
Lignify (lulz)





peace,
4eak

[konsultant]

Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?


No, in fact absolutly not. Yes Mono black most definetly animates more often and faster very consistently, what it does not do is deal with hate. I have been playing Reanimate since the day Entomb was unbanned and I went out to buy a set of Entombs and came accross that creature named Iona that seemed just silly that they would print it. If Reanimate had not won a GP you had a decent shot of dealing with the standard Crypts and Relics that everybody used to play. Now in the post "holy shit somebody won a 2200+ man GP with Reanimate " world you will probably will every game one with typical blow out fashion and struggle very hard to win anything post board. Even if it's just your local meta and you show up and win one or two people will adapt and you will not be able to win with Mono Black. You literaly will auto scoop to Leyline and things like finding thoughtsiezes to deal with Macabre or Needles/NUll Rods to deal with Crypts and such will be very hard to find in time. I started with Mono Black and didn't want to give up on it but once I ran it in enough events I realized I had to run Blue. I have a Black Green list posted a ways back that I really liked at the time I put it together although at this point I would not reccomend it.

[John Rohan]

No, in fact absolutly not. Yes Mono black most definetly animates more often and faster very consistently, what it does not do is deal with hate. I have been playing Reanimate since the day Entomb was unbanned.

I have to partially disagree, I've been playing Reanimator long before Entomb was unbanned. It was a great deck then even. I have tested just about every version known to man.

Reanimator is a combo, for which to work you need 3 things:

1. A fat creature
2. A way to get it into the graveyard
3. A way to pull it out of the graveyard

With Careful Study and so many tutors, B/U reanimator helps you find the combo with more consistency. But Mono B can get several good draws and do just as well, but you can also just as easily get unlucky and draw only 2 parts of this combo, desperately looking for the third piece. This is far less likely to happen with U/B. Also, FoW is just about the only way to stop an ANT or Charbelcher deck from winning on the first turn.

HOWEVER - mono-B is still viable, as is B/G or B/W versions (I don't think B/R would do well, but I'm open to it) - IF you have a significant amount of protection, as this poster seems to have. During the "Necro Summer" many years back, Mono-B Necropotence decks dominated everywhere even though everyone had a crapload of anti-black in their sideboards. Still, those Necro decks mainboarded Mishra's Factories and Nev's Disk - you might want to consider that instead of your sideboard; if your opponent throws out an Iona himself (or steals yours with an Animate Dead) and chooses "black" - then it's an auto-loss without some other way of removing threats. Countertop will also shut down a Mono-B deck.

[from Cairo]

Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?
No, in fact absolutly not. Yes Mono black most definetly animates more often and faster very consistently, what it does not do is deal with hate. I have been playing Reanimate since the day Entomb was unbanned.
I have to partially disagree, I've been playing Reanimator long before Entomb was unbanned. It was a great deck then even. I have tested just about every version known to man.

Reanimator is a combo, for which to work you need 3 things:

1. A fat creature
2. A way to get it into the graveyard
3. A way to pull it out of the graveyard

With Careful Study and so many tutors, B/U reanimator helps you find the combo [and protection, and answers to hate] with more consistency. But Mono B can get several good draws and do just as well, but you can also just as easily get unlucky and draw only 2 parts of this combo, desperately looking for the third piece. This is far less likely to happen with U/B. Also, FoW is just about the only way to stop an ANT or Charbelcher deck from winning on the first turn.

HOWEVER - mono-B is still viable, as is B/G or B/W versions (I don't think B/R would do well, but I'm open to it) - IF you have a significant amount of protection, as this poster seems to have. During the "Necro Summer" many years back, Mono-B Necropotence decks dominated everywhere even though everyone had a crapload of anti-black in their sideboards. Still, those Necro decks mainboarded Mishra's Factories and Nev's Disk - you might want to consider that instead of your sideboard; if your opponent throws out an Iona himself (or steals yours with an Animate Dead) and chooses "black" - then it's an auto-loss without some other way of removing threats. Countertop will also shut down a Mono-B deck.

How are you partially disagreeing with Konsultant? He said that Mono-Black can be more explosive, but is less consistent. You say you partially disagree, then go on to completely agree. The question isn't whether Mono-Black is viable (it is), it's whether it's better than B/U, and most everyone seems in agreement that it is not. Mono-Black has potential to be more explosive, but at the cost of B/U(/g)'s flexibility and consistency; this trade off is not worth making.

[JonBarber]

How are you partially disagreeing with Konsultant? He said that Mono-Black can be more explosive, but is less consistent. You say you partially disagree, then go on to completely agree. The question isn't whether Mono-Black is viable (it is), it's whether it's better than B/U, and most everyone seems in agreement that it is not. Mono-Black has potential to be more explosive, but at the cost of B/U(/g)'s flexibility and consistency; this trade off is not worth making.

lol I was gonna point out the same thing. In an undeveloped meta, mono-black might be a very viable option because of its consistency. But for larger events or against a more competent meta, B/U/g is really the way to go. It has the required flexibility to stand strong against almost any situation. Mono-black can't deal with the things that a blue splash can.

[John Rohan]

How are you partially disagreeing with Konsultant? He said that Mono-Black can be more explosive, but is less consistent. You say you partially disagree, then go on to completely agree.

My partial disagreement was that he said he should "absolutely not" play mono-B, and that it "does not deal with hate". You should play mono-B if you prefer it, and you have a reasonable chance of being as successful as U/B (but the luck factor will play more of a part). Hate can also be dealt with just fine - if you are careful about your card choices.

[Jon Stewart]

No, in fact absolutly not. Yes Mono black most definetly animates more often and faster very consistently, what it does not do is deal with hate. I have been playing Reanimate since the day Entomb was unbanned and I went out to buy a set of Entombs and came accross that creature named Iona that seemed just silly that they would print it. If Reanimate had not won a GP you had a decent shot of dealing with the standard Crypts and Relics that everybody used to play. Now in the post "holy shit somebody won a 2200+ man GP with Reanimate " world you will probably will every game one with typical blow out fashion and struggle very hard to win anything post board. Even if it's just your local meta and you show up and win one or two people will adapt and you will not be able to win with Mono Black. You literaly will auto scoop to Leyline and things like finding thoughtsiezes to deal with Macabre

I have to disagree with you about that. I've won many many many games against Leyline, Noetic Scales, Progentius and all sorts of random crap for one reason and one reason alone. Nev's Disk. Game one, I am playing a single one of Nev's Disk and for whatever reason, I've almost never had any trouble tutoring for the card and using it whenever I needed it. The ridiculous number of times I keep reanimating stuff helps me immensely as well.

This has happened to me countless time in dueling, where my opponents gets off a Macabre or resolves a hate card, and yet I easily draw into another bury or reanimate spell or Disk and made a full recovery.

I think perhaps one of the best ways to test the resiliency of a deck to hate is to play it in free for all multiplayer. Just yesterday, I played around 7 games of multiplayer with this deck, against Pox, Leylines, Progenitus, Countertop, StP, PtE, Noetic Scales, Iona, Macabre, Damnations and Wraths, all sort of hate that you see in multiplayer games. Much of the hate obviously went after me, the guy playing Ionas, Blazing Archons, and the 7/11 islandwalking shroud tramplers. And yet, many games, I was able to reanimate out creatures 4-5 different times over the first six turns (inspite of opposing hate), all while blowing up Leylines, Countertop and Noetic Scales to win the game or atleast defeating many of the players in the game. Nev's Disk has been a god send. (I am playing Oblivion Stone in the sideboard in case opponents Meddling Mage Nev's Disk or something because the effect is just that good).

Plus you get so many more broken turn one or two plays with Mono B than U/B that help you outright steal games.

I already can't count the number of games I won to a first turn Ritual, Unmask, Entomb, Animate Dead/Exhume or a first turn Ritual, Thoughtseize, Entomb, Reanimate (or even either of those plays spread out over two turns). Or even Ritual, Buried Alive, Turn 2, Thoughtseize, Reanimate or Unmask, Animate Dead, Exhume. That resulted in my opponents scooping right then and there. With the mono black version of the deck, you almost always reanimate something on turn one or turn two, or at the very latest turn three with ridiculous consistency. And if they answer it, you also often have several other reanimate effects in your hand, and top decks with ridiculous consistency. It's hard to describe just how fast, powerful and broken the mono black version feels to play. You really have to just throw it together and try it out. There is no way around it.

I can't overemphasize how incredibly strong Nev's Disk has been for the deck even and esp game one. I know, mathematically game one, it shouldn't work with just 19 lands. But often seems to. Where I am unable to win the game fast and early. It's only because opponents expend so much time and resources to dealing with my creatures or trying to stabilize with life linkers that I rarely have trobule getting to 4 lands on the board. Game two playing Disk (or O Ring), becomes monumentally easier when playing against hate.

I was talking about the standard B/U Reanimator lists (not a theoretical list that splashes solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor and maybe a one of Echoing Truth). And compared to the standard list, I've regularly seen the Mono B version I'm playing out perform it.

Maybe you have a point about there might not being much disadvantage to splashing blue solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor, but I am not convinced for a couple of reasons.. (Daze is easy to play around and doesn't tell you every thing in your opponent's hand so I still prefer discard to that). Daze is perfect in tempo decks because even if your opponent's play around it, it only gains you tempo. But in a deck like this, it's really important that key hate cards your opponents play don't resolve, and in that case, relying on a card that can be.

The splashing solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor point is somewhat debatable for a couple of reasons. Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage and also more importantly, doesn't let you grab Nev's Disk with it. By not being able to grab Disk, M. Tutor doesn't serve Beseech's main function nearly as well. You have to settle for some weakass bounce spell like Echoing Truth that more often than not is just a delay tactic and not an actual answer to your problem card. Beseech being able to grab Disk or Oblivion Stone has been insanely useful and gamebreaking. I rarely need to use Beseech to grab a combo piece since the deck plays so many combo pieces already. So it's main purpose is indeed to grab you Disk (while occasionally grabbing you a missing combo piece). Mystical Tutor is unable to serve Beseech's most vital role nearly as well. And no Show and Tell is not the answer. Since it does nothing agianst random stuff like Noetic Scales and also, you rarely have a creature card in your hand since this build only plays 4.

Brainstorm is fantastic, but only if you have a shuffle effect, otherwise, it's often just par for the course. You probably are able to resolve a shuffle effect after playing the card about 50-60% of the time you play the card. But that other 40-50% of the time, the card can be very meh. That said, there is no real disadvantage to casting it then. But you are basically splashing a whole color just for that card, and also if that Brainstorm was a Buried Alive or Animate Dead, there's tons of scenarios where that really saves your butt. But I think inspite of this Brainstorm is never a dead draw and the single best card blue has to offer the deck (since Mystical Tutor is unable to serve the most valuable function that Beseech serves).

Yes, playing Brainstorm (the best card blue has to offer imho) does make the deck more consistent by showing you three more cards. But simply playing more combo pieces in it's place like wise also makes the deck more consistent. And it's easy to underestimate how much without trying the deck out yourself. Brainstorm is not a tutor afterall, there is no guarentee that the cards it shows are the cards you need. But simply playing more combo pieces gives you a 50/50 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need to combo off. Combine that with your tutor effects and ability to discard creatures, and it's actully more like a 70/30 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need.

And lastly splashing a color does open you up to all sorts of hate. Since most blue versions of the deck run such an anemic land count and are extremely reliant on both colors (and can be screwed over completely by getting cut off from either color), getting lands Stifled or Wastelands or Blood Mooned or Magus of the Mooned. can be game over for you by slowing you down way too much. I've seen that and had that happen to me countless times when playing the B/U version. The Mono B version never has to worry about LD, which helps make the deck incredibly more resilient.

The mono b version being faster and more consistent is so incredibly useful against the many many many random matchups you run into that have no good answers to reanimate. Everyone talks about countertop and Leyline (which the deck does have a fantastic out to), but no one considers that many fast but random decks and players still don't play much or any effective hate in their sideboards. Burn is something I see often, and being able to consistenly drop down Iona turn one or turn two is such a critical aspect to beating this matchup. And against those matchups, the mono b version is guarenteed a win, where as the B/U version can still sometimes be too slow in getting the combo pieces together and resolving them.

[menace13]

How does Mono B win over Planar Void and Leyline and do not please say "oh i wait till turn 3 to Beseech for Stone or turn 4 for Disk ,hope to Ritual if not pass the turn, hope to draw land and to play what i just Beseeched passing turn yet again before i clear hate"... Now if between all this a single Needle(gawd forbid Null Rods, but no one plays them in Legacy anyway much like mono b animator) hits naming your tutored card you lose. Bstorm and M. Tutor are what gives B/U the goods to search out anything on turn 1 and 2 and/or at EOTs.

[Jon Stewart]

No that's not how it usually goes. This is how lots of games go. They see you playing reanimator, and they try to dump out their whole hand in order to try to race you (including Countertops, Chalice of the Voids and such annoyances that they use up turns to cantrip into/tutor for and cast). If you can combo off, you combo off and when you do succesfully, you win regardless. But if you can't combo off because they used up their turns to play Countertops and Chalices and stuff, and use up their countermagic to stop you, often RFGing important card that would've speeded up their deck to FoW, they've already spend a couple of turns doing that rather than playing creatures to brign down your life total. You buy even more time with your Discard, Mishra's Factories, or techy plays like forcing them to discard a Goyf or Sower of Temptation and Reanimating, Life/Deathing or Animate Deading it over to your side. All this stuff buys you long enough time for you to play and use Disk. Or it's also possible that you can simply Dark Ritual into Disk on turn two and wipe the whole board on turn three.

Yes it seems like a lot of trouble to go to play and use Disk. But Disk isn't some stupid bounce card, it gains you enormous game winning tempo right there. Disk costs 5 Mana. Pernicious Deeding for 4 costs 7 mana. And both have the same effect on the board. One disk and it's usually game over for most opponents. They can't recover when they've already expended so many cards to stopping and trying to race your combo, they usually have a close to empty hand.

You do get a fatty on turn 2 or 3. The Disk is what you use if you lose the fatty. The deck consistently plays a fatty turn one or turn 2, more frequently than in the B/U version. Many times, that's game right then and there. And you get a win (where as if the B/U version had to spend it's first turns Brainstorming and cantripping and tutoring it's way into the fat, it could easily be too slow for Zoo, Burn, Goblins and other aggro matchups.

Bounce doesn't save you against a board full of threats. Bounce buys you one turn, against one threat, and that's rarely enough.

But sometimes, it's not game as soon as you get fat on the board. They find a way to destroy it (edict, StP on sphinx, using sower of temptation to steal an iona that named white to stop their StPs, things like that).

In those situations, you do reach 4 land easily and it's immensely helpful to be able to clear the board of all creatures with a Disk.

Disk is not that slow in the situations it helps. Even without Ritual, you use it on turn 5. But the main stuff you need to use it for, stuff like Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance + Sensei's Top, also costs your opponent a turn or two of mana to cast, and sometimes another turn to cantrip into. So both you and your opponent are playing at a slower pace.

Postboard, Factories are tremendously useful in stalling for a couple of turns aggresive decks, and if those decks devoted some of their turns and cards to stopping your first attempt combo out, once again, you have more than long enough to use Disk to clear the board.

I never thought Disk would be useful when I put the deck together either. On paper, yes it does look too slow, and I never bothered maindecking it.

But I've been simply floored at how often useful Disk ends up being. You either combo off and win right away. Or your combo gets stopped delaying both you, and your opponent by a turn or two, which often is all the time you need for Disk to be useful. And it's impossible to overstate how massive of a tempo gain it is to Disk the entire opponent's board. It's also a card they rarely see coming until it's too late and they've already over extended.

And there's also plenty of situations where Dark Ritual accelearates into Disk or Oblivion Stone especially game two and three.

Yes, playing Brainstorm (the best card blue has to offer imho) does make the deck more consistent by showing you three more cards. But simply playing more combo pieces in it's place like wise also makes the deck more consistent. And it's easy to underestimate how much without trying the deck out yourself. Brainstorm is not a tutor afterall, there is no guarentee that the cards it shows are the cards you need. But simply playing more combo pieces gives you a 50/50 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need to combo off. Combine that with your tutor effects and ability to discard creatures, and it's actully more like a 70/30 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need.

P.S: this is off topic, but for everyone touting B/G builds, I would almost certainly run both Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library in such a build.

[John Rohan]

...Yes it seems like a lot of trouble to go to play and use Disk. But Disk isn't some stupid bounce card, it gains you enormous game winning tempo right there. Disk costs 5 Mana. Pernicious Deeding for 4 costs 7 mana. And both have the same effect on the board. One disk and it's usually game over for most opponents. They can't recover when they've already expended so many cards to stopping and trying to race your combo, they usually have a close to empty hand... P.S: this is off topic, but for everyone touting B/G builds, I would almost certainly run both Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library in such a build.

It's fun seeing people "discovering" how great a card Nev's Disk is, and how well it combos with Mishra's factories. This has been a staple combo for almost 16 years!!

Anyway, yes it works well in mono-B. If you rely so heavily on it, then I would mainboard the factories, or some other man-lands. I wouldn't swap them one-for-one with swamps, but probably take out 2 swamps, two other cards, and put in 4 factories. The reason is you don't want to cut down your swamp count too far - you run the risk of too many opening hands with only Factories and Dark Rituals.

Nev's disk does have problems though - coming into play tapped gives the opponent time to tutor for an answer to it, and even when untapped K Grip will destroy it with no chance to respond.

Pernicious Deed functions similarly, and sometimes it's better for a reanimate deck, since it won't destroy your fat creatures.

[moseby]

I was wondering if anyone has tried running Emrakul in their builds? I tried him as a 3 of in the side with 1 SNT main and 2 side. I tried it at a local tourney for a Workshop. I managed to drop him twice, once vs a painter/top deck where I had sided 2 and had the other in hand and he comboed out the turn I dropped him. the 2nd time was vs gobs and he responded to my SNT with sting scourger (WTF), and then proceded to over run me.

When he hits play he requires an immediate answer, as he will probably wipe an opponents board (only lands may have anything left). Though I am not sure if he is worth while eating up so may board slots. My 1 overwhelming concern with reanimator is that people are now starting to meta specifically for reanimator (farie macabre is such a beating).

[Lammina]

I was wondering if anyone has tried running Emrakul in their builds? I tried him as a 3 of in the side with 1 SNT main and 2 side. I tried it at a local tourney for a Workshop. I managed to drop him twice, once vs a painter/top deck where I had sided 2 and had the other in hand and he comboed out the turn I dropped him. the 2nd time was vs gobs and he responded to my SNT with sting scourger (WTF), and then proceded to over run me.

When he hits play he requires an immediate answer, as he will probably wipe an opponents board (only lands may have anything left). Though I am not sure if he is worth while eating up so may board slots. My 1 overwhelming concern with reanimator is that people are now starting to meta specifically for reanimator (farie macabre is such a beating).

I dont think wich Emrakul is the way...

For you put it in play, you may proceed only with the S&T plan... too risk....

For tests, if you want play with a Eldrazi in your reanimator, try onde of these: It That Betrays (the one wich one I choose for my future tests.... or Pathrazer of Ulamog.

Cyah,

Lammina

[moseby]

So is It that Betrays main or in the side? Also are you reanimating it or just sticking it as a SNT target? Losing 12 life just to get a basic land for it when it gets pathed sucks, because lets face it path and plow are probably 70% (I am guessing, but is definitely the most prevalent form of removal in the format by an order of magnitude).

Also in any recent matchups vs. gob has anyone noticed them running a lot more warren wierding?

[practical joke]

Only during the GP Madrid, back here in Holland the wise ppl still run mono-red goblins since it's a whole lot more explosive. I never see R/B goblins around here

Emrakul is not the way, it's a terrible card for reanimate. I could explain why, but there are too many reasons, inconsistency being the first.

It that betrays would belong to side, but I don't know a single deck that cannot remove them besides ANT.
12 life is too much, unless it makes you win the game directly. Sadly it does not therefore it sucks.

About mono-B reanimater. Disk seems fine, yes if that is your only answer to i.e. zoo. You should go to a real high-level tournament and face the facts it sucks. A single Qasali pridemage will screw you over, a single pithing needle, discard spell or what not screws your plan and sets you back full turn. I tried mono-B the first week after entomb got unbanned, and it's too random. I played with 8 dscard spells instead of 11, a faster curve than you do, and it's too random or too slow. Once in a while it goes insane, and all the other times it sucks harder than my gf during valentines day.

Imo nev disk will be way too slow.
Please post a tournament result so we can look into the mono-B version as well.

[jazzykat]

OK, some brief updates.

1. I tried the Hatfield version and I didn't like it with rituals. 4eak is dead right about why we shouldn't run them. It's a waste of time, better to set the combo up, especially since I cut down to 4 creatures MD.

2. I nearly have a MD that I am happy with. When I come to the conclusion that it works the way I want it to, I will post it.

3. I have been experimenting with tons of different SB cards and given the options and tutorability I am leaning towards defining a SB for this deck in terms of slots vs. x,(y,z ) matchups/situations as opposed to OMG you need this card. However, I may conclude that there are a few OMG you need this card!

4. IMO this deck is very deceptive forthe pilot regarding what role they should be in and how much risk it is necessary to expose themself too. I.e. when playing vs. a deck with counters/discard/relevant removal, or is just very aggressive how much should you wait and protect vs. how much should you go for it? The raw power makes the deck seem simple to pilot. THe more I test the more challenging I find this deck to be and the more rewarding(wins+personal satisfaction) I find it when piloted correctly.

5.What I would really benefit from would be if a good pilot would weigh in (primer volunteers anyone) on where you should be beatdown, and where you should be control. Sideboarding becomes even more important because you have to decide if you want to just bring in anti-hate/protection(stifle, spell pierce, show and tell, etc.) or attempt to actively disrupt your opponent (i.e. sickening dreams, perish, virtue's ruin, etc.)

6. The 1 Echoing Truth MD is so randomly cool. It gives you a window to win.

7. W/o getting carried away you need to be an opportunist IMO. With so much manipulation and tutoring + the power of reanimate you need to keep your eyes open for different plays. Seize+reanimate goyf=beatdown city. Tutor up Echoing truth after you have Iona down to bounce there creature, etc. etc.

8. I have used Tombstalkers in the SB and they have been FANTASTIC.

9. Goyfs in the board anybody? Have you tried them?

10. More than 1 careful study for me has been ass. I used to play 6 creatures and I can't tell you how many times I blindly studied into absolute garbage and didn't have a blue card left to force.

11. As this deck gains popularity I think the number of Grips in the board will decrease even more. Everyone dust off your UR Dreadstill!

12. Empyrial Archangel is cool but is not absolutely necessary IMO.

13. Is there 1 more MD mid/lategame reach card we should run (a flex card like Echoing Truth)?
13.A Is Deep Analysis a complete NoNo here?

14. This deck is soo much fun!

[practical joke]

A few questions:

8. tombstalkers, against which mu's have they been fantastic? Do you have enough cards left to battle i.e. relic of progenitus ( which removes a single card each turn)

9. goyfs.Besides zoo, I can't seem to find a really good match-up to board it in against, since that single creature drop will take you all the way. Else that SB removal will take care of it. ( bounce, EE, perish, damnation, infest, etc etc)

10. I for one like careful study since I can also Throw away that garbage instead of having to put that crap back in my hand/deck and shuffling it on top again in the end. Dropping the worst crap from your hand when it's not a creature is a relief as well. BUT if you do play ponders, I would also lower the ammount of studies back to 1. ( insurance measure for drawing creatures or having them bounced.) You could say S&T works as well in that situation, but somehow that always ends up as a dead card when you don't have creatures on hand.

13. Absolute nono, there's no space for it, and we lose life by the dozens already. So if we can spare life by not playing that card and keep it to ponders/brainstorms we'll be fine. You don't need it :)


I'm curious about your decklist when you are finished fine-tuning it to your likings.

[konsultant]

About mono-B reanimater. Disk seems fine, yes if that is your only answer to i.e. zoo. You should go to a real high-level tournament and face the facts it sucks. A single Qasali pridemage will screw you over, a single pithing needle, discard spell or what not screws your plan and sets you back full turn. I tried mono-B the first week after entomb got unbanned, and it's too random. I played with 8 dscard spells instead of 11, a faster curve than you do, and it's too random or too slow. Once in a while it goes insane, and all the other times it sucks harder than my gf during valentines day.

Imo nev disk will be way too slow.
Please post a tournament result so we can look into the mono-B version as well.

Perhaps I should have been more clear regarding why mono black should never see play IMO, I was reffering to a large event such as the upcoming GP. If you want to run it at some 10 man local event go for it who the hell cares. I'm sure I could show up at a ten man event and win with a standard deck. All of the results I have seen at large events have been with UB/g builds for a reason. I tried mono black for along time and didn't want to give it up but it really just comes down to a consistensy factor.

[4eak]

@ jazzykat


1. I tried the Hatfield version and I didn't like it with rituals. 4eak is dead right about why we shouldn't run them. It's a waste of time, better to set the combo up, especially since I cut down to 4 creatures MD.

Just clarifying, I've been arguing against running a full set of mana acceleration. However, I am certainly not against a singleton Dark Ritual (I've tried to include that exception in my posts); there are many circumstances (against tempo decks, for example) and corner cases (Sea, Tutor, Entomb, Exhume, 3x Junk) where it is fantastic.


13.A Is Deep Analysis a complete NoNo here?

I consider it a waste of tempo and space.


@ practical joke

I'm sorry I don't have a working simulation yet. While the combo is extremely straightfoward, the card selection is extremely complex. Honestly, I don't know if I will be able to provide a relevant simulator (my lack of talent).

While I disagree with you on the mana acceleration, I have to say I can understand your approach. As I said before, if you don't have to be as selective about your targets (e.g. Iona may be more devastating in some metas than others), you can build and play (and mulligan) quite differently.

I can tell you this (http://pastie.org/935576), given your GP list, here are the approximate chances for a turn 1 reanimation of some creature (not necessarily your choice, given Thoughtseize and Careful Study):

4-card hand = 0.1%
5-card hand = 0.8%
6-card hand = 2.6%
7-card hand = 5.7%
8-card hand = 10.5%

Please note that some of your (on the draw) 8-card hand turn 1 reanimations are misleading, and the percentage is higher than you would experience given proper mulligans. An example would be:

Lotus Petal, Reanimate, Entomb, x4 irrelevant -> 8th card being a swamp/fetch/dual/petal.

You'd mulligan this hand, even though you have a 30% chance to draw a card which gives you turn 1 reanimation. These sorts of hands are included in the 8-card hand percentage, even though they shouldn't, as ideally we would be able to exclude them with a set of mulligan rules. Unfortunately, writing (correct) mulligan rules is a very complex thing to do. Please notice that the above problem also exists in the 7-card hand percentage as well, specifically when examining mulligan decisions at 6-cards. Some 6-card hands will be worth mulliganing, even though they would have turned out to be turn 1 reanimation hands on the draw.

I'm going to wager that you get a turn 1 reanimation attempt in about 7-8% of your games. Unanswered opposing discard, Chalice, permission will drop that percentage, in many cases resulting in a loss from overextending.

I haven't examined the turn 2 win differences because of the sheer complexity of card selection. I also am unable to examine the differences in control card usage (which is very matchup dependent). That makes it difficult to quantify many of the situations where lands will be better than mana acceleration. So, I lack good numbers to show you the comparative advantage calculation. In other words, I think we are both in a position of ignorance and still forced to use experience and intuition-based arguments for now.

Additionally, I want to say that I sympathize with your approach when it isn't as selective about the target, as this strategy relies much less upon Entomb. Now, most people don't realize that Entomb is the card they want to answer, not our Reanimation effects (which are far more redundant). Against good players, however, selective versions of Reanimator will find Entomb acts as a chokepoint which our opponent can exploit, and it is here that 'putting any random fatty' (and as early as possible) may simply be a better play .

For now, I see two lists of Reanimator. Mana acceleration isn't the difference, but rather the degree to which each version leverages Entomb for selection is the difference. The question we must answer: how selective do we need to be in our Reanimation target? That, in my mind, is very much a metagame decision.



peace,
4eak

[whienot]

4eak,

For now, I see two lists of Reanimator. Mana acceleration isn't the difference, but rather the degree to which each version leverages Entomb for selection is the difference. The question we must answer: how selective do we need to be in our Reanimation target? That, in my mind, is very much a metagame decision.

This is the most true statement in the last several pages. This is exactly why I prefer versions with more creatures and multiple studies. The good players figured out awhile ago that the best non-gravehate option is to not let Entomb resolve. Redundant fatties and Careful Studies address this issue well.

I'm sure I am missing the finer points of playing the 3-4 creature version, I just don't like being so dependent on Entomb.

For those playing Tombstalkers, I would like to hear your experiences, too.

[jazzykat]

For those interested here is the list that I feel most comfortable with. I tested with the singleton dark ritual and it lets you do some random useful stuff and is very good at beating opposing dazes.



// NAME: reanimator

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
1 [OD] Careful Study
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [BRB] Dark Ritual //Not sold on this but I really dont' want to play more than 1 careful study main. S&T always sits in my hand dead but that is because no one seems to want to play countertop anymore from who I test with. Any suggestions?

Since I run tombstalker relic of progenitus is probably the card we hate to see most from the board. I know you guys aren't fans of null rod but the more I think about it the more I want to test a 2 of in the board again. I can almost gurantee they aren't SBing in artifact hate vs. us.

Tombstalker supplements the meager list of dudes I run. I use them as additional big bodies and goyf shrinkers. I also use them to screw with people who think their extirpates and/or counterbalance is going to stop me. He is another way to throw a fat evasive body out there that works around a lot of the hate that would be traditionally aimed at us. Relic is a total bitch so you counter it or get a bunch of fetch lands out and drop everything into the yard at once. If they don't have a reanimation target they probably won't wipe the yards yet and you can sneak a staker out.

Lastly, to address 4eak's point about more/less dudes and reliance on entomb: I feel that we have to be as powerful and consistent as possible. For example, Reanimating an Archon vs. zoo on turn 2 is a huge liability. I would much rather wait till turn 3 to exhume a sphinx. Typically, decks that can stop an entomb don't have as fast a clock, so we have time to get a thoughtseize or a force, or another entomb or whatever. Then we can select the right creature to just about gg them. I am not convinced that playing extra creatures and relying more on chance for the combo is better than almost always setting up a turn 3/4(sometimes you are slow but then they probably were too) that is what you need to win the game. Oh and how about empryial archangel or careful study in topdeck mode...?

[John Rohan]

This is exactly why I prefer versions with more creatures and multiple studies. The good players figured out awhile ago that the best non-gravehate option is to not let Entomb resolve. Redundant fatties and Careful Studies address this issue well.

I'm sure I am missing the finer points of playing the 3-4 creature version, I just don't like being so dependent on Entomb.

I'm also wondering if these builds are now too dependant on Entomb. If someone counters your Entomb and then Extirpates it, what are you going to do? Careful Study is great if you have at least 6 large creatures. Otherwise, it can too often sit in your hand as a dead card.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned here, but I prefer to have a few more fatties and at least a few discard creatures (P. Imp, Oona's Prowler). They are a backup discard option, are decent creatures in their own right, and they can serve as chump blockers or sacrifice outlets vs. cards like Diabolic Edict.

[jazzykat]

I'm also wondering if these builds are now too dependant on Entomb. If someone counters your Entomb and then Extirpates it, what are you going to do?

Cornery case but I'll bite. First if they read the source they will know that I don't play that many careful studies or creatures. Otherwise without extirpating me ahead of time they really wouldn't know that. They also burn the pate(which is their grave hate) in hope that I don't drop a fatty via careful study and reanimate. So, assume they used duress and they knew I didn't have a study in hand. Well, we can still dig for a body and tutor up the study. You can only realistically reanimate one of your dudes per game. You are free to exhume as much as you can. In fact I may go up to 2 Careful Studies regardless of how much I hate the card.

You can also counter their creature, reanimate it and beat on them with it.

As far as countering entomb, we normally play 4FoW, 4 Daze, and 3/4 Seize/Duress if you are playing the 4 creature builds you are using turns 1 and 2 (if necessary) to set up. You have just as many counters/disruption as just about any other deck out there. You also have the advantage in that you are trying to resolve the spell, they will usually have to have 2 answers for your oringal spell and 1 answer

My question to you is, what happens when you need a SB card and draw another fatty. You traditionally don't run nearly as many ponders or any if you want to run a bunch of other discard outlets, so your search is decreased.

I do like the idea of Oona's Prowler or PImp but like Null Rod from the board I think there are just more flexible and often better solutions.

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!


This is my list. I had some changes (radical ones), and you can see the absence of Careful Studies.

In the place, I added more protection to the list, bringing the 3x Spell pierce to sideboard to the main.

If possible, I want comments for it please!

The list I play:

1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
2x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground Sea
-------------------------------------------------------- 16 lands

1x Dark Ritual
1x Echoing Truth
3x Spell Pierce
3x Ponder (incridible in matches 2-3 for search hates and takes the place of the studies)
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize (more control and protection for the deck)
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical tutor
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume (I was thinking cut one of these and add 1 Ponder... maybe)
------------------------------------------------------------------- 40 spells

1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Terastodon (Empyrial Archangel...argh! - maybe put in side the Todon and put another Iona)
1x Blazing Archon
-------------------------------------------------------------- 05 creatures

Sideboard:
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Extirpate
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Extract
1x Show And Tell (maybe cut for Misdirection - 16 land and 5 bigs isnt good numbers for try the show and tell...IMO)
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Perish
2x Krosan Grip
2x Duress
3x Stifle

Thx for the help and attention,

Lammina

[practical joke]

In my opinion lammina, that's quite the overkill on counterspells.
You do for 1 want to play that fourth ponder, as you can see you still have 2 spots left after that.
I think playing 14 protection spells might turn out to be overkill. I would play that singleton study, unless you can convince me that's rubbish or a no-good card.

Also dunno about the spell pierces, but unless you it's a meta-call I wouldn't stick with it.


Thanks 4eak for those numbers, I'll try to ask around for the real mathkids here to make a simulation. ( they have been trying to work out a few simulations for ANT and 1-land belcher.)

[Lammina]

In my opinion lammina, that's quite the overkill on counterspells.
You do for 1 want to play that fourth ponder, as you can see you still have 2 spots left after that.
I think playing 14 protection spells might turn out to be overkill. I would play that singleton study, unless you can convince me that's rubbish or a no-good card.

Also dunno about the spell pierces, but unless you it's a meta-call I wouldn't stick with it.


Thanks 4eak for those numbers, I'll try to ask around for the real mathkids here to make a simulation. ( they have been trying to work out a few simulations for ANT and 1-land belcher.)

@Pratical Joke: the spell pierce are good against the spell thats kills/exiles/counter our bigs/spells, and all the decks actually use that kind of tricks.

My metagame are full of decks like Zoo (StP, Paths..), Merfolks (counters...); x/B (edicts... kills...); landstill types... so, I think the 3x S. Pierces can help to shell our strategy with excelence!

And the studies, WHY dont cut them?

A version with more protection cant supress the studies?

Thx,

Lammina!

[jazzykat]

@Lammina
I think you need at least 1 careful study, cutting all of them is a mistake.
Play 4 ponders.

I am really scared that you play only 16 lands. With stifle, wasteland, Daze being perhaps as prevalent as ever I think the extra land is actually good.

[XiaN]

I'm playing with 16 lands from the beginning and never had any problems. I'm playing a very developed meta here with an good amound of the DTW and DTB fraction.

And if you're not facing thresh ( thresh is zensored o_O ) or Team America every second game, i don't see a reason to run more than 16. Nearly every card in our deck costs one mana and we have 8 cantrips and study ( and sometimes Ritual ) to search for more if an second land is required.

[menace13]

I am Currently using the green splash in sb for Claims,Grips and Tranquil Domain and so far i have not been thrilled with the whole deck.
My manabase is 2 basics 4 Seas 1 Bayou 1 Trop 4 Delta 3Verdant 3Misty. 18 lands seem too high for the online meta even though Wasteland is huge stifle isnt atm. The SB is a mess, but i love my Null Rods was using 3 untill i saw LSV with a 2/2 Rod/Needle(out to macabre) split in the last daily, loved it.
1 Coffin Purge
1 Duress
1 Fleshbag Marauder(changed to Gilded Drake)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Massacre(cut for Needle)
1 Nature's Claim
3 Null Rod( cut 1 for Needle #2)
1 Perish
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tranquil Domain (only for Enchantress and maybe Leyline if lucky)

Main deck is standard filler ( 2 Sieze no ritual 6 dudes Tera over Emp Arch 1 SnT ). This was the list i top 8'd on the Legacy premier 4/18/10. Any help on the deck would be appreciated i am not to happy with the sb and mana base, Thanks in advance.

[practical joke]

I wouldn't trust to much on LSV concerning his legacy choises.

That being said. Play with your sideboard a bit, try a mystical build or try a solid 4-off build or mix it all-together.
I'm still relying on my 4-off sideboard list with the following.

1x akroma,angel of wrath
4x extirpate
1x show and tell
1x krosan grip
2x Engineered explosives
3x nature's claim
1x extract

and offcourse I'm forgetting some cards. My sideboard changes per environment. If I except a lot of counterspells I'm bringing a full set of xantid swarm.

Also since you have a mystical SB now, take a look at the sideboards of Both 4eak and Christian Muller's GP winning SB-list and get some ideas from there.

[menace13]

Thanks for the prompt reply. I got the mana base from 4eak's list a few pages back and also took a few of A. Muller's sb list. Originaly i tried something like your sb of Epate and Explosive, liked the Pates, but was almost never happy to see Explosives. How have they been for you? What situations do you use them mostly?

[practical joke]

I also don't use the list 4eak does, since I run an aggressive list. ( 4 petal, 4 study, 6 mofo's)
I run EE as a clear-up card right after I drop something, in against something like zoo.
I also used it a few times against chalices.
I used them again ETW tokens next to the single echoing truth.. ( mostly against belcher, I rarely see them otherwise)

I rarely use them besides those reasons, and I won't blame you for removing those cards from SB, since I do that as well and change them into xantid swarms. ( godly against merfolk)
( changes would be: -2 EE, -1 claim,-1 extirpate, +4 xantid swarm)
I brought my EE's for GP Madrid since I expected some zoo, I only played against it once and EE wasn't needed there.

I see the EE as the least useful card of my SB, and if there will be changes it'll the one of the first cards to go.

If you run 4 ponder, 1 study and 4 brainstorm, you can safely cut 1-2 lands. ( which would be to your own preference, but the risks should be considered)

About enchantress, you don't need tranquil domain, you win before that. Also that card is used against counterbalance as well, since 4cmc is a bit harder to hit for that deck than the 2 mana bounce. ( nowadays with elspeth and jace, the guess could be there)

[Captain Hammer]

Just started playing this deck and I was hoping you guys could hook me up with some suggestions on sideboarding and on what card to cut to get my list down to 60 cards.

I know what cards to side in for certain matchups. What I can't figure out is what cards I should be siding out to make room for the cards being sided out, without hurting my deck's ability to combo out.

For reference, here is my decklist, I'm open to any suggestions regarding my list that you have...

Maindeck (61 Cards!)

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Dark Ritual
1 Echoing Truth

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Iona
2 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrical Archangel
1 Sphinx

Sideboard (14 Cards!)

3 Tormod's Crypt (Vs. Lands, Mirror, Ichorid etc)
3 Tombstalker (Vs. Aggro I guess)
2 Spell Pierce (Vs. Wrath of God, Damnation, Disk, Stax & Countermagic heavy decks I guess)
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath (Subs in for Sphinx vs decks playing Black based Removal or Vampire Nighthawk)
1 Misdirection (Vs. Decks with lots of countermagic, acts as the 5th FoW)
1 Extripate (Vs. Life of the Loam)
1 Perish (Vs. Iona, Zoo, Bant, Elves etc)
1 Chain of Vapor (Vs. Leyline)
1 Show and Tell (Vs. Countertop)
1 Whatever card I cut from the maindeck to get down to 60 cards.


I typed up the cards and the matchups where I think the cards are most relevent, please correct me if I'm wrong about anything. I'm also open to scrapping cards from my sideboard if you guys have suggestions on cards that I should be sideboarding instead.

Also, please give me suggestions on what cards should I cut from the maindeck when siding in cards.


Yes that list is 61 cards. I for the life of me can't figure out which card to cut. I know everyone is going to say that I should cut a Thoughtseize or the 7th creature. But I love playing 7 creatures so that I can frequently use Careful Study or Thoughtseize to discard my creatures and Reanimate them that same turn instead of being wholly dependent on cantripping into or tutoring up Entomb...

And I love Thoughtseize. It lets me see my opponents hand, take out their one FoW or Daze or StP or Counterbalance and tells me what creature to Entomb into the yard to seal the game. It lets me discard the Inkwell Leviathan or Iona I drew so that I could Reanimate or Exhume it, essentially serving the exact same role as Entomb. And it even lets me make my opponent discard a Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk so that I can Reanimate it over to my side of the battlefield and buy time.

Dark Ritual has also saved me countless times (letting me combo off when I am stuck at one land only, or combo off one turn early, and with Daze protection). Likewise, Echoing Truth has come in handy sometimes, esp vs. the mirror matchup's Blazing Archon, so I'm hesistant to cut either card.

[Vacrix]

Interesting list. Why would you play Circular Logic when you have no discard outlets? Its just an overcosted counter when you could be playing Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, etc.

I'd cut the 2nd Inkwell. Do you really want a 2nd one? It has shroud. If you lose it to Innocent Blood or something, then you're probably doing it wrong (besides, Iona technically has shroud, and so does Archangel).

[stacker]

I can frequently use Circular Logic or Thoughtseize to discard my creatures

This is not how circular logic works. Otherwise, if you sub in FoWS for them, it looks like any other reanimator list.

[Captain Hammer]

Lol, sorry, I meant Careful Study, not Circular Logic. It wasn't some uber secret tech, I swear. I updated my post to correct this mistake.

I am wary of going down to 6 creatures as I frequently use Careful Study and Thoughtseize to get them into the yard, and Reanimating them, rather than having to cantrip like crazy to find Entomb. But I'll consider cutting the 2nd Inkwell like you suggested. Thank you.

If I cut the 2nd Inkwell, should I play it in the sideboard? Should I instead side an Akroma, Angel of Fury (like Inkwell, it's great against Bant since it is StP proof and Sower of Temptation/Echoing Truth proof.)

Or should I play some other card as the 15th sideboard card? Maybe play a basic Island against Wasteland decks. Any suggestions.

Thank you so much once again.

[whienot]

I would either cut Empyrial Archangel or Thoughtseize. Archangel hasn't been carrying it's weight for me lately. Do we really need more than 2 shroud guys?.

I've been using 3x Thoughtseize main for some time now and rarely find myself lacking in disruption. The 4th is in the board.

If you ever suspect alot of the mirror, consider Coffin Purge for the board.

[menace13]

I guess i could cut the Tranquil Domain(we do not have reverent Silence Online yet) as it only comes in vs Enchantress and Leyline/Planar. They are only semi useful vs Solitaire by clearing away any Words of War/Wind and Elephant Grass.

[stacker]

dont know if any of you missed it, but lsv's posted one of his modo playthroughs with reanimator on c-f

[lordofthepit]

I was watching Luis Scott Vargas' videos on his deck, and I noticed he had a single Animate Dead in his sideboard for matchups like Zoo where you don't want to use Reanimate or Exhume. I'm wondering what purpose this serves. It seems to me it doesn't really help enough in the bad matchups to really warrant a sideboard slot, and it's not exactly tutorable either.

Is Animate Dead generally not a spell that most B/U builds would include?

[4eak]

I really don't like Animate dead against a deck packing Qasali Pridemage.

I don't like using singletons that can't be tutored (Mystical Tutor/Entomb/Fetch). If you want to play animate dead for a metagame reason (or basically any non-creature permanent), you should play multiples of them to ensure that you can consistently get them.



peace,
4eak

[jazzykat]

After watching LSV pilot BU reanimator on C-F I really appreciate his ability more.

Regarding the mulliganing though: Really? I mean REALLY? Is that how you guys mulligan when you play 4 careful study and 6/7 fatties?
It also seemed like some of the games he won he did without protection and in really bad shape.

He won the tournament and all, but a 2 card mulligan and then a win...really?

He also made me appreciate Terastodon a buttload more, besides its like a dinosaur (OK, its technically an elephant but it wants to be a dinosaur) :)

What do you guys make of his experiences? Typical, non-typical?

[Cacks]

I still really like Terastodon, and play it MD. He can deal with (virtually) any problem permanent, and against decks like goblins just nuking all your lands to give you a wall of blockers on turn 3 is very strong - as well as protecting you from a tutored up warren wierding. There is always a risk in going all in, but the risks are fairly low here. My list is a little slower than most (no accellerant, and playing ponder) which gives me consisency, but more chance of a problem permanent turning up - so this analysis may be less relevant for faster lists.

[Captain Hammer]

Well, I played six rounds with Reanimator at a tourney yesterday and I have to say, I'm appalled by horribly inconsistent the deck is. I never expected this but there were far too many hands where the deck didn't have right cards to combo off. And in addition, it was terribly dependent on Entomb, leading to severe problems in any matchup where the opponent was smart enough to make you discard or counter Entomb.

The one plus the whole night was Tombstalker. Every single matchup where I boarded them in, they have been insanely useful, and actually, they made the deck as a whole a lot more consistent. By the end of round 2, I found myself boarding them against most every matchup.

I think the deck needs to play Intuition and maybe even maindeck Tombstalker to beef up its consistency. Intuition is an instant speed buried alive that doubles as a tutor for Exhume or even Force of Will in a pinch. If you're absolutely desperate for an Echoing Truth and don't mind waiting a few turns, you can even tutor up Mystical Tutor and use that to get you an Echoing Truth.

Here is my proposed decklist, what do you guys think?

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Dark Ritual*

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Careful Study
1 Echoing Truth

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

Temporarily, I am trying Dark Ritual as a 3 of to make the deck a little more broken, but I may go back down to a single Dark Ritual and play the 4th Daze and the 3rd Thoughtseize, or perhaps just play 2 Ponder in it's place.

As crazy as it sounds, I'm also considering cutting the 4th Reanimate, and making room for 3 Animate Dead in the deck because the lifeloss from Reanimate has screwed me over a number of games and it feels like you can never have too many Reanimate effects in hand. So here's the proposed alternate list...

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Careful Study
1 Echoing Truth

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

This list ups the number of Reanimate effects to 10 (while minimizing the lifeloss from Reanimate). And it also has 10 ways to get a creature into the yard (You can get a creature into the yard by Entombing it, Intuitioning it, or drawing one of the three Reanimate worthy creatures yourself and discarding them by either abusing the discard step, or by Careful Studying or Thoughtseizing yourself). In addition, it plays 7 tutors that can grab you a Reanimate effect, an Entomb effect, or even a Force of Will in a pinch. And lastly, you have Tombstalkers which can easily be hardcast in a pinch. This all brings your consistency up through the roof.

[whienot]

One of the huuuge strengths of this deck is its consistency. If you are finding it inconsistent, you're probably not mulliganing correctly.

If anyone is coming to the Atlanta 5k, expect Reanimator in droves. Thanks LSV.

[Captain Hammer]

Nope, I'm mulliganing well. There were four different B/U Reanimator players at the tourney. Every last one of us got slaughtered. It was a bloodbath.

I always mulled into a hand with a way to get both combo pieces, or atleast one combo piece if I was desperate. It would go well until the Entomb gets countered, or discarded, then the deck would take an eternity to put the combo back together. I posted the list I played up above (the one with 4 Daze, 4 Thoughtseize and 4 FoW) and it still wasn't enough. Thoughtseize however was insanely useful the whole night, it just wasn't enough. I talked to a couple of them between rounds and after the tourney. I thought maybe there was too much hate for the deck here. But everyone I talked to talked about how they lost frequently to themselves, having their decks fall apart to a tiny bit of hate or disrupton.

But maybe you're right, and it was just a bad night and bad luck but the deck usually performs better. I really do think playing Intuition would makee the deck immensely more consistent however.

Reanimator is everywhere these days, spreading through the community like the Chimera, every meta has tons of reanimator decks it feels like. And yet, the deck hasn't been putting up nearly as many top 4s as a deck that's played this frequently should imo. Intuition does help in this respect.

[Cacks]

@ Captain Hammer: I agree with whienot - the deck is usually very consistent, so you may not be mulliganing right. I note that your list is only 16 lands, and one dark ritual, which seems a bit light given that you're not playing any other search like ponder (which I love, although I know that others are less keen on). Finally are you playing careful study correctly? I initially was lacking consistency until someone way up the thread pointed out that you should think hard before playing any land after your second, as your curve is so low. Instead they can be kept in hand to ensure that you can dig with the study for (relative) value?

[practical joke]

I have to admit,

I'm far from impressed by LSV's playstyle.
His sideboard is clunky, his mainboard is nothing abnormal.
It's somewhat of a mixture between my list and 4eak's

The games he played online, weren't topclass reanimate playskills. It was actually a bit messy once in a while.
I'd also rather discuss those awkward choises in person, but heck, I don't know him and seen him once in Madrid. ( and you know how that adventure ended for him)

Example: match vs canadian *****. He could have expected canadian ***** next to the diversity of BANT decks around. He didn't, if he had a land less in hand, it could've been game over for that match.

Also taking wipe away instead of fire/ice is a doubtfull choise. I can imagine him wanting to do that, but you give the opponent 2 additional draws that way.
He already had acces to inkwell leviathan and an entomb to hit empyrial archangel.
If he kept attacking with the empyrial and the inkwell the turn before that, he would've easily won as well since the nimble's were far from 3/3.

[Captain Hammer]

Okay, what do you guys think of Intuition. Early runs with the card seem to suggest that the card is ridiculously good.

Compare Intuition to Mystical Tutoring for Entomb.

Intuition costs 3 mana to put two creatures into your yard (and another one into your hand that is hopefully blue so it can serve as FoW fodder, or if not, can atleast be shuffled away with Brainstorm instead of something more relevent or discarded with Thoughtseize/Careful Study should your first attempt at reanimation be met with a Fairie Macabre), Mystical Tutoring for Entomb costs 2 mana but also costs you an extra draw, which is painful since the deck has no card draw. So basically for that one extra mana that intuiton costs, you are getting the cards into the yard right away, and you are basically getting TWO more cards than with Mystical Tutor into Entomb. The first card is the card you topdeck, the next turn, and the second being the extra creature you got in your hand to serve as FoW or Brainstorm fodder. And also, putting two creatures into your yard instead of just one can be a god send when you have two different Reanimate effects in hand and you need to race your opponent fast.

Intuition of course also lets you grab an Exhume or Reanimate when you need it.But more importantly.

Intuition lets you grab FoW (or Daze) at instant speed in response to an opponent's Damnation or Humility for example. Mystical Tutor forces you to wait a turn to get the FoW which is pretty useless in situations where you want it right away. Plus, Mystical Tutoring for a FoW costs you a card draw, which can easily mean that you have no other blue cards in hand to RFG for FoW.

This is not to say that we should play Intuition in place of Mystical Tutor. Look at my lists. I'm running 3 Intuition alongside 4 Mystical Tutor. I think Intuition is a fantastic option, especially given that it's an instant, that serves so many different roles in the deck.



Also what do you guys think of just maindecking 3 Tombstalkers straight up. They are basically a one card combo in the deck, a combo by themselves since you fill up your yard so fast.

[4eak]

It isn't easy to talk and play at the same time. I'm sure LSV is a better player than I am. It is easier to dissect a game with hindsight as well. I disagree with some of the decisions he made (and some of his lines of thought). I'm also not terribly impressed by some of his opponents. Some of the games he won were because his opponents weren't playing correctly, not because he was actually outplaying them.


Match 1, Game 1:

2x Fetch, Mystical, Entomb, Exhume, Inkwell, Study
2x Trop, Volcanic Island, Wasteland, Ponder, Goose, Fire/Ice, Wipe away,

No Stifle on either fetch. Zero permission from the opponent. No bolts to pressure the low-life Reanimation. That was an autowin. He also made a mistake on his Thoughtseize, he took Wipe away when Fire/Ice was the obvious choice.


Match 1, Game 2:

Swamp, Sea, Fetch, Needle, 2x Study, Entomb

Land heavy with a basic, some digging power as well. Draws Iona & Inkwell for the Study (seems good).

Opponent didn't even wait to Crypt as a response. That is a huge mistake.

It was pretty obvious he had Stifle, I'd have let the Thoughtseize be Dazed. I'd rather save the land for Perish or for playing through Spell pierce/Daze on my 2 Reanimation spells.

I didn't care for that useless pithing needle sitting in his hand either.


Match 1, Game 3:

2x Force, Entomb, Reanimate, Fetch, Needle, Mystical (with Inkwell draw for the 2nd force) on the Play. Seems insanely nice.

A single Daze, no spell pierce, no GY hate, no FoW, no Brainstorm, probably Stifle. The opponent had a terrible hand.

Overall, I think the Tempo Thresh pilot was just awful. This should have been a much more difficult match.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Match 2, Game 1:

2x Fetch, Island, Brainstorm, Reanimate. However, Draws Iona and Brainstorms into Fetch, Entomb, SnT (seems excellent).

No turn 1 play from opponent.

He Entombs before drawing his 3rd land. Luckily draws one. I'd just SnT Iona first, and he could have guaranteed it by not Entombing immediately and waiting for the guaranteed land. He always could have Entombed->Reanimate on the next turn as well.

Library off Show and Tell? Must have been a terrible hand.


Match 2, Game 2:

Rough mull for LSV. Brainstorm into Sphinx and 3rd land was nice.
No GY hate when it mattered from opponent.
Opponent didn't Canopy aggressively, a mistake.
Sphinx lived, which might be considered lucky.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Match 3, Game 1:

Island, Swamp, Exhume, SnT, Study, 2x Daze on the Play
I'd consider keeping that. Knowing I was playing elves (perhaps a deck I'm less impressed by), I think this hand is acceptable.

Mystical, Entomb, Creature -- 15 cards out of 53 cards that would probably be GG and he's going to dig 3 cards. Additionally, Brainstorm or Careful Study would have been at least useful, making 23 of 53 cards in 3 draws.

I'm not familiar with the particular elf deck he is facing, but I'm not sure I agree with his insistence on Iona as I think Blazing Archon is just as good against the vast majority of elf decks, and if they have an army on the board already, I usually go with Archon (if I have the choice).


Match 3, Game 2:

Fetch, Sea, Swamp, Reanimate, Mystical, Daze.

Sucks he led with Swamp.

I disagree when he claims that Relic is 'a lot worse than Crypt'. Relic can be a serious pain in the ass against low-GY-filling hands. In fact, against his Pithing Needles, I prefer to have a mixture of crypt/relic.


Match 3, Game 3:

2x Fetch, Sea, Daze, Entomb, Reanimate, Needle (pretty sweet hand)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Match 3, Game 1:

2x Fetch, 2x Reanimate, Study, Terastadon, Brainstorm

Double Lords at the end would have been hilarious ;P


Match 3, Game 3:

I'm surprised he Brainstormed away the Mystical Tutor. With another Brainstorm in hand, getting to 3 land isn't much of an issue in my eyes.

Why run a single Animate Dead? Some merfolk even run Echoing Truth.

A serious mistake to drop the Island after the Reanimation.







peace,
4eak

[Captain Hammer]

So has no one tested Intuition here before?

It's been incredible, honest to god.

Mystical Tutor into Entomb, which is typically what we do to get a creature into the yard, is almost just as mana intensive as Intuition, but is slower since you have to wait an extra turn, plus you end up with two fewer cards in hand compared to Intuitioning for that creature. And I know it's rare, but I have had Mystical Tutor disrupted by opposing milling effects (or shuffle effects).

The fact that if you do have a creature in hand and really just want an Exhume or Reanimate, it can grab that for you, is also money.

And the ability to grab a FoW or even a Daze or Spell Pierce at instant speed has been really useful.

And what about maindecking Tombstalker. I'm really enjoying that. Team America plays 4 Tombstalker as almost it's only real win condition, because the creature is just that powerful.

This deck is quite similar to Team America in a lot of respects, so playing 3 Tombstalker here seems to make sense. And it seems to work very well too. A 2cc 5/5 flyer is nothing to scoff at. It's also resilient to Fairie Macabre and effects of that sort since delve is part of the mana cost to play it.

My proposed builds from the previous page for reference...



Here is my proposed decklist, what do you guys think?

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Dark Ritual*

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Careful Study
1 Echoing Truth

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

Temporarily, I am trying Dark Ritual as a 3 of to make the deck a little more broken, but I may go back down to a single Dark Ritual and play the 4th Daze and the 3rd Thoughtseize, or perhaps just play 2 Ponder in it's place.

As crazy as it sounds, I'm also considering cutting the 4th Reanimate, and making room for 3 Animate Dead in the deck because the lifeloss from Reanimate has screwed me over a number of games and it feels like you can never have too many Reanimate effects in hand. So here's the proposed alternate list...

10 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Careful Study
1 Echoing Truth

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead

2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

This list ups the number of Reanimate effects to 10 (while minimizing the lifeloss from Reanimate). And it also has 10 ways to get a creature into the yard (You can get a creature into the yard by Entombing it, Intuitioning it, or drawing one of the three Reanimate worthy creatures yourself and discarding them by either abusing the discard step, or by Careful Studying or Thoughtseizing yourself). In addition, it plays 7 tutors that can grab you a Reanimate effect, an Entomb effect, or even a Force of Will in a pinch. And lastly, you have Tombstalkers which can easily be hardcast in a pinch. This all brings your consistency up through the roof.

[fdiv_bug]

I have no opinion on Intuition, not having tested it, but your logic on it seems reasonable (at the very least on paper). I'll probably give it a try.


This deck is quite similar to Team America in a lot of respects, so playing 3 Tombstalker here seems to make sense.

But here I'm going to have to say I could not possibly disagree with you more. I play both Team America and Reanimator, and the only common quality they share is colors and some spells (spells which most blue decks play, anyway).

TA is a slow, methodical, choking control deck. It runs Tombstalker because with all the shutting down you do of their game plan, you usually get a full yard pretty quick. It runs Tarmogoyf for similar reasons. It takes its time keeping the opponent from winning while it sets itself up to take the game only a few turns after it decides it's ready to do so. TA is extremely interactive, and almost completely reactionary for the first several turns, making no move until it is either forced into action or the pilot decides the time is right, at which point the heavy blows come strong and fast.

Reanimator, on the other hand, is a poster child combo deck. It wants to do one thing -- get the appropriate fattie, depending on the situation, on the table as quickly as possible -- over and over, every game of every round. It has very little interactivity, and the only real disruption it packs main or side is to protect the combo. My most successful Reanimator rounds have occasionally ended in as few as seven minutes. I've seldom seen Team America take less than 15 minutes per game, unless the opposing player was... well, me. Running Reanimator. :tongue:

I really do respect your opinion on Intuition, though. Like most things, in my book it warrants testing. So does Tombstalker, for that matter, and I do look forward to seeing further discussion on both from some of the other Reanimator pilots in the thread.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, you're right, Team America mechanistically couldn't be more different from this deck.

I do think though that this deck tends to fill the yard rather quickly, quicker than Team America.

You cantrip like crazy, tutor like crazy, dump cards into the yard with Careful Study, Intuition, or both depending on the build, play Dark Ritual, use fetchlands, thoughtseize your opponents, Daze and FoW and all this serves to rapidly fill your yard.

Yes, if you get a good draw, you can exhume out a Inkwell or Iona on turn 2-3 and they will go the distance by themselves by turn 4-5. In which case, Tombstalker will be nothing more than an extra blocker that you cast on turn 3-4 to buy you time vs. your opponents Goyf. But if you get your plan disrupted, you will have a full yard by turn 3 or 4 and will be thankful to be able to cast a 5/5 flyer for 2-3 mana. You do have the tools to protect it in Daze, FoW and Thoughtseize, so it could well go the distance by itself especially if your opponent already expended their disruption to prevent you from comboing off. But even if all it does is buy you time against your opponent's creature swarm, that's still a really useful function for this deck.

[jazzykat]

@Captain Hammer

re Intuition: How is waiting until turn 4 to reanimate/exhume faster than turn 1 mystical (entomb/reanimate: whichever you are missing) and turn 2 entomb+reanimate? Your point about instantly tutoring a FoW is valid and noted. Dropping 2 dudes in the bin is fine but probably not that necessary.

re inconsistency of deck: I really don't understand what the issue is. My average turn for reanimate is probably turn 2.5 (I have more turn 2/3 reanimates than turn 4's) and I play a build with only 1/2 careful studies and only 4 creatures and 18 land (I will test 1 less).

re being like TA: I would liken it more to Epic Painter going to the man plan if you bring Tombstalkers from the board. I think the objectives are not quite the same. TA wants to disrupt effectively in the early game and ride 1 huge undercosted threat to victory. Reanimator wants to bring a single undercosted threat to the table ASAP so there is no midgame.

re tombstalker: From the side I feel he is a beating. You bring him in whenever you smell extirpate, coffin purge, faerie macabre, face very fast decks where reanimate may kill you, and in general heavy multicolored removal. The SB cards that are best vs. reanimator don't greatly inhibit Tombstalker from being hardcast (major exception is relic). Even Tormod's Crypt needs to be done pre-emptively and they will usually save it to stop you from bringing up the Entomb/Study fatty so it is a pretty sure bet they aren't going to randomly hit your yard without a fattie in it.

Given that I have firmly placed tombstalker in my SB as a 3 of, and relic is now the card I hate to see most (screws up tombstalker and regular reanimates) I am going to retest needle and/or null rod for the board because I find myself with so many dead SB cards.

[Captain Hammer]

@Captain Hammer

re Intuition: How is waiting until turn 4 to reanimate/exhume faster than turn 1 mystical (entomb/reanimate: whichever you are missing) and turn 2 entomb+reanimate? Your point about instantly tutoring a FoW is valid and noted. Dropping 2 dudes in the bin is fine but probably not that necessary.

re inconsistency of deck: I really don't understand what the issue is. My average turn for reanimate is probably turn 2.5 (I have more turn 2/3 reanimates than turn 4's) and I play a build with only 1/2 careful studies and only 4 creatures and 18 land (I will test 1 less).


Turn two Dark Ritual (I play 3), Intuition + Reanimate is just as quick. But Intuition isn't played for the speed, it's played for the versatility.

Yes, in an ideal game, where you have either an Entomb or a Reanimate + Mystical Tutor in hand, and your opponent has no disruption or countermagic, you can go off on turn two. But you're not going to face a lot of such opponents in a competitive meta.

Your first attempt at reanimation, or your starting hand is going to get disrupted more often than not. And then, being able to try again the very next turn is going to be a huge help. And again, the fact that Intuition can tutor for almost* any card that you need is a huge boon.

In game two and three, when your opponent brings in 4 Leyline and 4 Fairie McCabre, or Runed Halo or whatever other hate they run, you're going to really want some versatility via more tutors.



re being like TA: I would liken it more to Epic Painter going to the man plan if you bring Tombstalkers from the board. I think the objectives are not quite the same. TA wants to disrupt effectively in the early game and ride 1 huge undercosted threat to victory. Reanimator wants to bring a single undercosted threat to the table ASAP so there is no midgame.

re tombstalker: From the side I feel he is a beating. You bring him in whenever you smell extirpate, coffin purge, faerie macabre, face very fast decks where reanimate may kill you, and in general heavy multicolored removal. The SB cards that are best vs. reanimator don't greatly inhibit Tombstalker from being hardcast (major exception is relic). Even Tormod's Crypt needs to be done pre-emptively and they will usually save it to stop you from bringing up the Entomb/Study fatty so it is a pretty sure bet they aren't going to randomly hit your yard without a fattie in it.

Given that I have firmly placed tombstalker in my SB as a 3 of, and relic is now the card I hate to see most (screws up tombstalker and regular reanimates) I am going to retest needle and/or null rod for the board because I find myself with so many dead SB cards.

Like I already explained clearly, I mean that this deck is similar to TA in that it can fill up the yard just as fast or even faster. Like I explained, in a competitive meta, your first attempt at reanimation is going to get disrupted more often than not. If it doesn't good for you, you probably won the game, unless your opponent has several creatures on the board already and can race you, in which case, you'll be thankful for that Tombstalker.

And when your first attempt at Reanimation does fail, you can simply cast a Tombstalker that very next turn, and it will either go the distance on it's own, or it will atleast buy you enough time, or stall your opponents creatures long enough for you to Reanimate something else.

IMO, Tombstalker isn't nearly as useful in the board as it is maindeck. Postboard, your opponent is going to bring in Leylines, Relics, Crypts, all the graveyard hate that can shut down Tombstalker too. Where Tombstalker really shines is game one, where the hate isn't aimed at your graveyard but instead exists in the form of discard or countermagic.

Sometimes, it's the correct move to side out Tombstalker game two and instead bring in more antihate in the form of Echoing Truths and what not.

[fdiv_bug]

And when your first attempt at Reanimation does fail, you can simply cast a Tombstalker that very next turn, and it will either go the distance on it's own, or it will atleast buy you enough time, or stall your opponents creatures long enough for you to Reanimate something else.

IMO, Tombstalker isn't nearly as useful in the board as it is maindeck. Postboard, your opponent is going to bring in Leylines, Relics, Crypts, all the graveyard hate that can shut down Tombstalker too. Where Tombstalker really shines is game one, where the hate isn't aimed at your graveyard but instead exists in the form of discard or countermagic.

Sometimes, it's the correct move to side out Tombstalker game two and instead bring in more antihate in the form of Echoing Truths and what not.

These are both really solid points. I'm pretty comfortable with my mostly run-of-the-mill list at the moment, but I'm definitely going to keep the screamin' demon in mind for the future.

[XiaN]

Could please do a "Everyone posts his current list" round? Because it seems that everyone tries a slightly different take on reanimator and it would be nice to have an overview over the current lists. ( And there is a new primer on the way too :eek: )

I'm currently running this list :

//Lands
4x Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
4x Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
1x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1x Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
3x Marsh Flats (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Marsh+Flats)
3x Verdant Catacombs (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Verdant+Catacombs)

//Creatures
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Iona%2C+Shield+of+Emeria)
2x Inkwell Leviathan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inkwell+Leviathan)
1x Blazing Archon (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blazing+Archon)
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sphinx+of+the+Steel+Wind)
1x Empyrial Archangel (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Empyrial+Archangel)

//Spells
4x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
4x Careful Study (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Careful+Study)
4x Mystical Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mystical+Tutor)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
4x Daze (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Daze)
4x Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)
4x Entomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Entomb)
4x Reanimate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reanimate)
4x Exhume (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Exhume)
1x Echoing Truth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Echoing+Truth)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-124990-308f1fad25377feae78c3690a942a773-en.html)

But lately there had been some interesting discussions about the list. I'll sum up some up them with the conclusion "of the masses" ( with a touch of personal option of cause ).

Thought : Run Intuition as additional discard outlet and instant force tutor

Conclusion : It's way to expensive in a deck that runs it's "lategame bombs" in the 2cc slot and consists mainly of 1cc spells. Also its effect is not THAT game breaking.

Thought : Run any sort of acceleration ( dark ritual or lotus petal )

Conclusion : While threatening a first turn reanimate, it has been proven that this doesn't accelerate the deck at all. Also it hurts the consistency of the deck, because of "bad topdecks" in the mid/endgame.

Thought : Run more show and tell / instant reanimator and Emrakul

Conclusion : This leads to a different archetype and doesn't fit into reanimator

Thought : Run Animate Dead as reanimate effects 9 and 10

Conclusion : Its not required, because we already run 12 effects ( counting Mystical Tutor ) and 4-8 cantrips. This should be enough to ensure a reanimate effect in hand. It also enables permanent removal for the enemy.

Thought : How many lands to run?

Conclusion : All spells you want to cast with reanimator cost 1 mana. Statistically spoken, the non green splash version should run well with 16 lands. If a green splash is required for sb choices most players run 17 lands. But this is just an approximate value. Metagame decisions and other circumstances may require 18 or even 19 lands.

Thought : Run a green splash for sb choices

Conclusion : This is an open point. Lately its tending to a no, because brown, blue and black offer good answers to sb hate in the form of artifacts ( Null Rod ) or spells ( Show/Tell, Stifle, Bounce, Counter ). The absence of green in the manabase allows a more stable ( more wasteland prove ) and smaller ( 16 instead of 17 lands ) manabase as well.

Thought : Remove Careful Study and cut down creatures to run Thoughtseize as self-discard instead.

Conclusion : Not fully decided yet. On the one hand Careful Study generates speed, keeps you digging for business, replaces useless lands with fuel in the mid/lategame and dumps dudes in the grave, it creates card disadvantage, is a pretty bad topdeck ( when you have no or few cards in hand ) and only fulfills its purpose when you have at least one creature in hand ( or lots of unwanted lands ). And with 7 fatties you may have your entomb targets stuck in hand and no self-discard in sight.

Thoughtseize on other hand does not replace useless cards with fresh meat, might be a dead topdeck as well and hurts your life total even more than reanimate does. It create information advantage and is almost never a bad draw in every state of the game. It works on the offence ( which Careful Study doesn't ) as disruption nr. 9-11/12 and obviously is self-discard. Its also one of the few answer to faerie macabre and allows some interesting interaction with the enemy ( discard their goyf and reanimate it ). Also with fewer creatures the chances are higher that you don't draw a useless fatty. But it doesn't feel as "speedy" as Careful Study does.

Like i said above: This point is pending for a "final" conclusion.

Thought : Include Tombstalker as backup plan.

Conclusion : Its also a pending point. One of its biggest disadvantages is that it relies on our main resource : the graveyard. Its hurt by every sb card against the deck. Also it increases the danger level of Relic of Progenitus, because when you have a fatty in the grave, failed reanimating it and follow up with a stalker you might be required to remove cards down to the fatty and maybe 1-2 other cards. This makes the first ability of Relic dangerous ( which it most likely isn't ). Last, but not least it opens the deck for permanent removal as well.

On the other hand it dodges an active counterbalance/top ( which is an autowin against reanimator preboard ), gives you an plan b when the reanimation attempts failed or are not available due to low life. When cast a turn after an reanimation it speeds up your clock a FULL TURN as well ( attack for 6/7 with fatty and next turn for lethal with tombstalker ). Its also a very good topdeck in the mid/endgame.

Melting all these concerns into a decklist, i would like to post the following list as a discussion base :

Lands
3x Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
3x Verdant Catacombs (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
4x Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
4x Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
2x Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
1x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)

Creatures
3x Tombstalker (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tombstalker)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Iona%2C+Shield+of+Emeria)
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sphinx+of+the+Steel+Wind)
1x Blazing Archon (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blazing+Archon)
1x Inkwell Leviathan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inkwell+Leviathan)

Spells
4x Daze (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Daze)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
3x Thoughtseize (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thoughtseize)
1x Echoing Truth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Echoing+Truth)
4x Reanimate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reanimate)
4x Exhume (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Exhume)
4x Entomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Entomb)
4x Mystical Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mystical+Tutor)
4x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
4x Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-124981-ab79fb3391531b79161870ae382fa9fe-en.html)

Please note, that we could easily free up the 3 slots in this list

-1 Echoing Truth ( based on many testgames and tournament experience i'm tending to move it to the sb, because its rarely required in the first game. I would never cut it from the sb though )
-1 Misty Rainforest ( i haven't tested the Stalkers yet, but this list should do fine with 16 as well, because you want to cast him in the mid/lategame and often found a second land till then )
-1 Ponder ( Dunno, but seems fine to cut one )

+3 open slots

These open slots may be used to run the following ( just a few brainstorms )

Dark Ritual
Stifle
Ghastly Demise
Chain of Vapor
Misdirection
More Dudes and 2 Careful Studies

Puh i'm hungry now .. the flame may begin :laugh:

[Captain Hammer]

I would always run one Careful Study. There are many games where I Mystical Tutored for Careful Study to dump the one-two creatures in my hand into the yard, while simultanously also drawing me two cards. In your list, cut a Ponder for it. You already play so many pure cantrips that you're going to get sick of them, and get sick of spending your first few turns just cantripping away to try to sculpt the hand you wanted, only to instead just draw into more and more cantrips.

Regarding Intuition, how exactly does the opinion of one or two people, based strictly on gut reaction rather than playtime with the card, constitute the "opinion of the masses." When there are just as many people who expressed interest or see some potential in the card as well in that same time frame. I have been playing with the card and it is absolutely worth it.

For one, playing 2-3 Intuition doesn't really impact your ability to have the cards to combo off on turn two. You still play 4 Entomb, 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Mystical Tutor and 4 Brainstorm. So you will have almost the same identical percentage of games where you open with just the right combination of cards to combo off on turn two.

In addition, a Dark Ritual accompanying Intution (I play 3), usually means you can combo off on turn two using Intuition as well. So no, Intuition, doesn't hurt your ability to combo off on turn two. But it does massively improve your chances to combo off again should your first attempt at comboing off fail, or you don't have the cards to combo off on turn two.


Mystical Tutor into Entomb = 2 card disadvantage to get the needed effect, costs 2 mana, wait one turn, only gets one creature into the yard, so you have to hope that one creature is enough to stabilize and go the distance.

Intuition = 0 card disadvantage to get the needed effect, costs 3 mana, instant speed, gets two creatures into the yard, and gets another into your hand that you can use later + the option to grab a FoW or Daze at instant speed at the nick of time whenever needed.

The card disadvantage point is extremely relevent. Between Mystical Tutor and Careful Study, and the multiple combo pieces, this deck consistently accumilates card disadvantage, with absolutely no way to recoup it. This is why by turn 5 or so, this deck is often stuck at top deck mode, where as opponents are still holding a number of cards.

You made it sound like this deck usually combos off on turn two where that is simply not true, and anyone that has played the deck a bit knows that it is simply not true.

Your list plays 12 cantrips, and 4 mystical tutors. Looking at the number of cantrips, it's pretty clear that you like many reanimator players, spend most turn ones and usually turn two as well, playing cantrips and tutors to try to get the cards you need for the combo. After all, you are largely relying on a two card combo where you only play four copies of one part and eight copies of the other.

Yes occasionally, this deck has the cards in the OP to attempt to combo off on turn 2, but against any competent opponent, after their discard effects or countermagic, this attempt often fails and you have to piece together the combo again.

Overall good post though, as I agree with the rest of your analysis for the most part.

I do agree with you in that I think it's a mistake not to play any Thoughtseize (and Tombstalker). Thoughtseize is almost at MVP status at my deck. It gets rid of annoying things like Fairie Macabre that everyone is playing in the board now, and that is otherwise impossible to deal with.

It also tells you how many counters are in your opponents hand, whether to play around Daze or Spell Pierce for key spells, what removal, bounce and creature thiefs are in your opponent's hand, and what color to name with Iona, and gets rid of the one card in their hand that is most troublesome. And occasionally, if you're desperate, you can Thoughtseize yourself to act like a mini Careful Study and get a creature into the yard, to Reanimate it that same turn. IMO, it's never a bad play to go turn one Thoughtseize. It helps avoid a ton of bad moves and pit traps your opponent has for you and it slows your opponent down too.

[XiaN]

I respect the option of other people and listen to their options closely, but i think you might be a bit "to excited" on Intuition. I've gone to the same excitement a while ago, too ( see the Bant Survival thread for my nerd rage on the CB/Top inclusion ). But it's also important to hear what other people say about "your secret tech".

As for Intuition : The biggest problem is its mana cost. You are right that tutor for entomb is card disadvantage ( only -1 card btw. ), but the most important part is : You can split the mana cost on more turns. To cast Intuition you NEED 3 mana on the turn you cast it. This requires more lands ( 18 lands list ), is way to slow without Ritual and .. is way to slow.

You don't need 2 dudes in the graveyard and one in your hand. To combo of you need only 1. And even in game 2 ... Intuition for 3 dudes ( most likly you will search for the 3 best creatures for this mu ) and he nukes your grave away. I really don't see the point in Intuition, i'm sorry. And even tutoring 3 force of will. This requires that you 1.) didn't draw 2 in that game 2.) have 3 mana OPEN 3.) will never draw a force again.

And i'm assuming a turn 2 combo attempt, because *opens his notebook* out of ~100 games ( with the first list above | without acceleration ) i've written down here I did ~40 attempts turn 2 ( including 15 first turn end step discards ) and ~40 turn 3. So like the an other poster already said : This decks usually combo's turn 2.5.

Of cause you can speed up the Intuition via Ritual, but that seems suboptimal ( the reasons mentioned above ), because you can simply cut the rituals and run more protection.


For one, playing 2-3 Intuition doesn't really impact your ability to have the cards to combo off on turn two.
But it didn't improve it as well. To be honest, Intuition impair's this chance, because it requires Dark Ritual to do so, which makes your combo a virtual 3 card combo.


Your list plays 12 cantrips, and 4 mystical tutors. Looking at the number of cantrips, it's pretty clear that you like many reanimator players, spend most turn ones and usually turn two as well, playing cantrips and tutors to try to get the cards you need for the combo.
Correct ... but that wouldn't change or improve if we run Intuition, or? ( btw. only 8 cantrips )


After all, you are largely relying on a two card combo where you only play four copies of one part and eight copies of the other.

Soo ... that would be true for Intuition, too. And we are running +4 or both, because of MTutor. And after the first part of the combo was successful, we don't need that part anymore.

[Captain Hammer]

In the games where you don't need Intution, it doesn't really hurt you. It serves as FoW fodder, or Brainstorm or Careful Study fodder. You always have need for FoW and Brainstorm and Careful Study fodder in this deck. But the games that go past the turn 2, Intution is a huge help that improves consistentcy.

I urge you to base the turn 2 combo percentage stat based on real world turn 2 combo percentages, not gold fishing. Real world percentage is much slower than turn 2.5, I promise. You will face disruption that often slows you down by another two turns atleast. And the real world number is the one that matters, not the goldfishing number.

If you rate Mystical Tutor into Entomb as a -1 card advantage. Then you have to rate Intution as a +1 card advantage.

Let me show you what I mean.

You have six cards in hand (6), you mystical tutor for entomb (5), pass turn, next turn, draw the entomb (6), and cast that (5), and finally you have the desired effect, a creature in your yard. And you wound up with five cards in hand.

You have six cards in hand (6), you cast Intution, add 2 creatures to your yard, and one to your hand (that you can use as FoW, Brainstorm or Careful Study fodder), you still have 6 cards, and you have had the desired effect, a creature in the yard (6). But you can't discount the fact that in the Mystical Tutor scenario, you had to wait a turn, and got an extra card draw phase off of that, that added a card to your hand. So to compensate for that extra turn's card draw, you add a card to the Intuition scenario (7).

So basically a turn later, with Intuition, you have 7 cards in hand and the desired effect in the yard. And with Mystical Tutor into Entomb, a turn later, you have 5 cards in hand and the desired effect.

Hence why Intution gives you 2 more card advantage than Mystical Tutor into Entomb.





After all, you are largely relying on a two card combo where you only play four copies of one part and eight copies of the other.

Soo ... that would be true for Intuition, too. And we are running +4 of both, because of MTutor. And after the first part of the combo was successful, we don't need that part anymore.

No that wouldn't be true for Intution, because Intuition is Entomb 5-7. Albeit a more mana intensive Entomb, but one that creates no card disadvantage.

And if you are counting Mystical Tutor as both an Entomb effect, and a Reanimate effect, since it can tutor for both, that's fine, but you would have to count Intuition as both as well, since it can likewise tutor for both.

So in your deck, you are playing 8 Entombs and 12 Reanimates. That's still not enough to consistently see both combo pieces that you need early on. Yes, often you do, but you frequently won't as well.

In the build with the 3 Intuition, you would be playing 11 Entombs and 15 Reanimate effects. That in turn significantly improves the consistency of seeing both combo pieces early on. Again, when you don't need Intuition, you can always pitch it to FoW or Brainstorm or Careful Study.

But those games that do go past turn three or four without you being able to combo off due to opposing disruption (in the real world, this happens often), you will be thankful for Intuition.

[XiaN]

Despise the fact that i made ~5 points "against" Intuition and you only respond to one, i would like you to address them as well.

If i have to pay the price of one card disadvantage for a way more flexible, sufficient and cheaper combo piece i'll take it.

The biggest concern with Intuition is its mana cost. Like i said above you can't split the cost between turns and to reach the speed of the "conventional" way you have to play suboptimal cards, more lands, make your combo a virtual 3 card combo and didn't gain a sufficient advantage out of doing so.

My notebook only tracks tournament games and competent testing games against DTB or DTW ( like i already said a few posts ago ).

You are also claiming that the decks consistence needs to be raised, because its currently inconsistent. Because you are the only player doing so and nearly every other player plays this deck because of its consistency ( besides other reasons of cause ), i would like to know what makes a deck consistent from your point of view.

[Captain Hammer]

The only two points that I didn't respond to were...

Your point that in order to tutor up Force of Will, you must not have drawn two already, to which I don't see a point in responding. If you already drew two FoW's you probably don't need to tutor up another one with Intuition. It's not the countermagic you are lacking in that scenario where you drew 2 FoWs, it's probably a combo piece so you will be using Intuition to tutor up creatures into your yard, or to tutor up an Exhume. If you indeed need more disruption than the two FoW's you already drew, you could always tutor up a Thoughtseize or a Daze depending on the situation.

And I also didn't respond to your point that, yes, Intuition doesn't slow you down or your ability to combo off on turn two but it doesn't speed you up either.

To which I see no reason to respond, because as you already admitted, it doesn't slow down your ability to combo off on turn two, and it's not there to speed it up, so it shouldn't be expected to. It's there to give you another chance to Exhume or Reanimate something else should you get disrupted or your first attempt fail.

As for the deck's consistency, I'm basing it on the fact that I see tons of B/U Reanimator players in my weekly meta, and they always seem to fail to top 8. And I'm experiencing that first hand as well. And it's not due to hate. It's more due to not seeing the right cards to combo off when I need them especially after my opponent Forces or Thoughtseizes a key spell. I am basing that on the fact that many games, because of this, I frequently see Reanimator players not being able to combo off until turn 6 or so because their first attempt failed and they are unable to reassemble both pieces of the combo again till turn 6 or later, by which time it's too late. And I'm basing that on the fact that playing 2-3 Intuition in the deck seems to improve it's consistency considerably. I welcome you to post your notebook results based on game wins, with and without 2-3 Intuition (in place of Ponder for example) and see what happens.

I invite you to plug this list in and chart the deck's performance and post the percentage of wins compared to the old list, rather than the turn you combo off on, because the percentage of wins is the far more relevent number than the turn you combo off on...

Lands
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Island

Creatures
3x Tombstalker
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Blazing Archon
1x Inkwell Leviathan

Spells
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
2x Intuition
1x Dark Ritual
1x Careful Study
1x Echoing Truth

[XiaN]

Ok we have an byword here in Germany that says : "Der Klügere gibt nach" which, translated to English would mean something like "The cleverer give in.". We'll see if Intuition makes it in or not. I'll highly doubt it, simply based on the fact that its too clunky and creates disadvantages ( stated above ) even when cast in the mid/lategame and requires some "magical christmas land" happen before to make it good/as good as the conventional way.

I tend to test my decks against the worst matchup possible. My testing includes at least 50% matches against the "arch enemy" which in case of reanimator means ( imo ) meerfolk and Ttresh. I don't know about the skill level of your reanimator players, but i think they might be less experienced with the deck or your meta is just to reanimator unfriendly. Honestly, I can't remember a game where an enemies counter or discard delayed me a full 3-4 turns.

Btw. i won ~80% of the games where i attempted reanimate turn 2.5 within 5 turns or earlier. ( man i counted 30min manually to point that out )

And i would like to have your opinion on the following question : What would you run in the free spots if you could choose every card but Intuition in the following list :wink:

Lands
2x Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
3x Verdant Catacombs (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
4x Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
4x Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
2x Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
1x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)

Creatures
3x Tombstalker (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tombstalker)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Iona%2C+Shield+of+Emeria)
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sphinx+of+the+Steel+Wind)
1x Blazing Archon (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blazing+Archon)
1x Inkwell Leviathan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inkwell+Leviathan)

Spells
4x Daze (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Daze)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
3x Thoughtseize (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thoughtseize)
4x Reanimate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reanimate)
4x Exhume (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Exhume)
4x Entomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Entomb)
4x Mystical Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mystical+Tutor)
4x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
3x Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)
3x Open

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-125441-918cfe9af60c008b10ee75b66504618b-en.html)

[Sims]

Could please do a "Everyone posts his current list" round? Because it seems that everyone tries a slightly different take on reanimator and it would be nice to have an overview over the current lists. ( And there is a new primer on the way too :eek: )

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacomb
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Island

4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Echoing Truth
2x Careful study
3x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Blazing Archon
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Inkwell Leviathan


That's my maindeck, and so far i've been pleased... It's not too out of the ordinary though some run a 2nd Inkwell over the Archangel, but the angel I've still enjoyed having. I suppose I could drop 2 lands for Petals or a Ritual or something, but I prefer the 18 land base and haven't really felt the need for a singleton ritual or anything. My sideboard is a bit more experimental. I'm testing out:

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Extirpate
2x Krosan Grip
1x Show and Tell
1x Perish
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor


I only run 2 Grips because they're tutorable and there's very little Counterbalance in my meta currently, Extirpate has been awesome in my testing so far. Nailing Dredgers, Force of Wills, Faerie Macabres, Crypts, and even Goyfs make it a pain in the ass for some decks to win... I'm thinking that spot is staying pretty locked right now.

The biggest "Huh?" in my board is Inquisition of Kozilek, I'd suspect. The card, again in my limited testing so far, has been a house. It hit almost every hate piece that matters (crypts, relics, faeries, counterbalance, chalice, three-sphere, planar void, etc.), wiffs on things that we can deal with (Force of Will with our own countermagic, or thoughtseizes... Leyline will already be in play and can be bounced... Natural Order can be raced with Archon or flat stopped with Iona)... I'll let you guys know how it goes, but so far I'm enjoying them as an improvement over duress for this deck. I don't think they're better than duress, overall, but the card has it's uses and I feel this is one of them.

[Captain Hammer]

What would you run in the free spots if you could choose every card but Intuition in the following list :wink:

Lands
2x Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
3x Verdant Catacombs (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Verdant+Catacombs)
4x Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
4x Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
2x Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)
1x Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)

Creatures
3x Tombstalker (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tombstalker)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Iona%2C+Shield+of+Emeria)
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sphinx+of+the+Steel+Wind)
1x Blazing Archon (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blazing+Archon)
1x Inkwell Leviathan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inkwell+Leviathan)

Spells
4x Daze (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Daze)
4x Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
3x Thoughtseize (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thoughtseize)
4x Reanimate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Reanimate)
4x Exhume (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Exhume)
4x Entomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Entomb)
4x Mystical Tutor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mystical+Tutor)
4x Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
3x Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ponder)
3x Open

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics (http://deckstats.net/deck-125441-918cfe9af60c008b10ee75b66504618b-en.html)

If I wasn't allowed to play 2 Intuition there, (I would honestly play Intuition over a couple of Ponders actually, not in those "open" slots).

I would play the 17th land, I find 16 too low, even without Intuition, it leads to a lot of mulligans.

I would play the 4th Thoughtseize as that card is MVP in lots of matchups for me and against lots of hate.

And I would play a single Careful Study because that singleton has been very useful to tutor up with Mystical Tutor on occasion when I have a creature or two in hand that I want to discard, I get to draw two cards in return for doing so.

Edit: Just noticed that you cut Echoing Truth, I would play that instead of the 4th Thoughtseize. That card is a godsend against certain hate that you can run into even game one (Humility, Meddling Mage etc.)

[jazzykat]

As per the request for lists I am running this and it is performing very well. I'm really surprised how many times I am digging and getting a second fatty out because I can't race with Iona alone....but....I think I would have lost those games before because I would have incorrectly tried to race. I recently put a second Iona in the MB, I really often want to see her and having her in my hand when I have an entomb is no good.

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [FNM] Reanimate
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [V09] Mystical Tutor
2 [OD] Careful Study
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

[Jon Stewart]

I don't know about you guys but I would really want to play

4 Tombstalker
4 Careful Study

in the same deck. Forget Ponder. What's the point of playing Ponder when you could instead play 2cc 5/5 flyers?

Like in your deck above jazzykat, I would want to go...

- 4 Ponder
- 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
- 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+2 Careful Study
+4 Tombstalker

[4eak]

As requested, I'm posting my current list(s). I have two I've been testing.

List 1: Emphasis on Selection and Manabase Stability

Land -- 18
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest

Targets -- 6
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Reanimation -- 8
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

Selection -- 16
4 Entomb
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Careful study

Control -- 12
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
3 Thoughtseize

Doesn't have to mulligan as often and is quite capable in the back-and-forth attrition battles in the control and tempo matchups.

For metagames where (tutor-based) selection and a strong manabase isn't as necessary, particularly where very early Iona is amazing (Zoo and combo matchups are good examples) and Careful Study is almost never CADisadvantage (consistently acting as both a dig and dump of targets you actually want to Reanimate), I'd recommend a different approach.


List 2: Emphasis on Speed and Iona

-3 Ponder
-1 Verdant Catacombs
-1 Empyrial Archangel

+3 Careful Study
+2 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Also testing a singleton DRit in place of a Daze.

Surprisingly, 5-6 cards makes a pretty big difference in the actual overall strategy. This list mulligans very aggressively. Unlike the selective approach, it overwhelmingly targets Iona. Without needing to be selective (and bottlenecking through Entomb), a full set of Careful Study and Iona gives you fairly high odds to quickly reanimate the creature you wanted in the first place (Iona).


Sideboard:

1 Show and Tell
1 Extract
1 Perish
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stifle
1 Sickening Dreams
1 Spell Pierce
2 Nature's Claim
1 Krosan Grip
1 more Krosan Grip for Selective or Nature's Claim for Speed
1 open slot

Admittedly, I am dubious of the sideboard for the version which emphasizes speed/Iona. I could totally understand a more redundant sideboard (targeting only particular decks) with less coverage of the overall metagame (as a selective deck would want).



peace,
4eak

[Cavius The Great]

Wow, Exhume is so bad in the meta right now, I mean I just cycle Krosan Tusker in response for +2 card advantage and the ability to race.

[mossivo1986]

Wow, Exhume is so bad in the meta right now, I mean I just cycle Krosan Tusker in response for +2 card advantage and the ability to race.

I mean seriously what competes against a t3 cycler? Certainly not t1 Entomb, t2 exhume. I wish everyone would just take notes from Cavius The Great!

[mossivo1986]

Wow, Exhume is so bad in the meta right now, I mean I just cycle Krosan Tusker in response for +2 card advantage and the ability to race.

I mean seriously what competes against a t3 cycler? Certainly not t1 Entomb, t2 exhume. I wish everyone would just take notes from Cavius The Great!

[Jon Stewart]

Krosan Tusker is soo broken.

I always find myself Reanimating my opponent's Krosan Tusker instead of my Iona because it's so much stronger.

[MULocke]

I mean seriously what competes against a t3 cycler? Certainly not t1 Entomb, t2 exhume. I wish everyone would just take notes from Cavius The Great!

Careful, you might get blown out by elvish spirit guide. Make sure to Thoughtseize first.

[Shimi]

Show and Tell for Krosan Tusker = game!! OMFG.

What dou you guys think about 3 SnT + Emrakul from the transformational Sideboard?It can deal with the Grave Hate and Macabre.

[Sims]

I don't know about you guys but I would really want to play

4 Tombstalker
4 Careful Study

in the same deck. Forget Ponder. What's the point of playing Ponder when you could instead play 2cc 5/5 flyers?

Like in your deck above jazzykat, I would want to go...

- 4 Ponder
- 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
- 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+2 Careful Study
+4 Tombstalker

Seriously?

Forgive my sounding like Fearless Leader, but have you even played this deck? I haven't tested with the stalkers, but then again I haven't needed to.. because ponder helps find what I need, and I play creatures that are better against the field than 5/5 flyers for 2 mana on.. what... turn 3, turn 4? I should have a 6/6 flying, first strike, life link, vigilence, pro red, pro green on the table by then... or an Iona that's locking them out of removal... or a Shrouded 7/11 trampler that island walks.

Why take out cards that help you filter and find what you need, to add redundant threats that come out later than your goal, and make their crypts better against you after they realize your playing Stalker.

[johanessen]

What's your plan against Goblins? I'm having really trouble in this pairing...

That's the list I'm currently running for reference:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Entomb

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

Side:

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Show and Tell
4 Spell Pierce
1 Badlands
3 Firespout


Firespout is there for the Goblins, Merfolks, and can help with Zoo.

Again, what's your plan against Goblins?

[konsultant]

Try running Akroma to beat Goblins.

[freakish777]

You should be going for Sphinx of the Steel Wind against Goblins, preferably with FoW back up (for their Warren Weirding). Vigilance + Lifelink should handily win you the game if they can't Weirding it.

[John Rohan]

Krosan Tusker is soo broken.

I always find myself Reanimating my opponent's Krosan Tusker instead of my Iona because it's so much stronger.

You guys are joking, but if you are playing with a green splash, you have to seriously consider the card. I finally decided not to include it in my B/G deck but it was a hard decision. If it had an evasion ability I probably would have. Obviously, it's usually not worth stealing from an opponent. But consider:

1. Cycling means it puts itself in the graveyard. So you aren't using up an entomb for it. Cycling also can't be countered (except with a Stifle).
2. You get two cards in response. If you add the card you didn't lose with Entomb, that's +3 card advantage.
3. Think of it this way: If there was a card that existed that said: 2G, instant, put a 6/5 creature in your graveyard, draw a land and draw another card, I think most people would think that's a hell of a deal. And that's essentially what this card is.

Another cycling card I have seriously considered is Scion of Darkness - it's a great creature in it's own right even without cycling (especially against Zoo or Elf decks). It's also hardcastable, especially in a mono-B deck. In test playing it worked great, but it came down to me just not being able to decide what card I would cut for it.

[stacker]

Reanimator just placed 3 of the top 8 at the Atlanta 5k

link (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=leg&deck_name[]=&event_type=&feedin=&start_date=2010-04-25&end_date=2010-05-02&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks)

It's clearly a tier 1 deck, with Gerry losing only a single game in the swiss. Can we make this a DTB thread already.

[JonBarber]

Reanimator just placed 3 of the top 8 at the Atlanta 5k

link (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=leg&deck_name[]=&event_type=&feedin=&start_date=2010-04-25&end_date=2010-05-02&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks)

It's clearly a tier 1 deck, with Gerry losing only a single game in the swiss. Can we make this a DTB thread already.

They do an occasional update where they go through and look at all the points each deck has earned in the last X months. The last one happened right before reanimator became popular. Its finally hit that popularity point where people are playing it enough to make it top pretty much at every event. It will certainly be a DTB next time they update.

WTF is up with Gerry's list??

[VsTheWorld]

Gerry's list is interesting. It seems like he sideboarded HEAVILY for the mirror, which I suppose is understandable if the plan is just to run over most everything else. 2 Coffin Purge, Gilded Drake, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Diabolic Edict. Minamo seems super janky though. Giving Iona pseudo-vigilance seems like it's less relevant than having your blue source Wasted or unable to alt-cast your Daze.

[Trans Am]

Giving Iona pseudo-vigilance seems like it's less relevant than having your blue source Wasted or unable to alt-cast your Daze.

Wouldnt it also help to keep their iona at bay until you could find an answer ?

[JonBarber]

Wouldnt it also help to keep their iona at bay until you could find an answer ?

Lol, by untapping it? Krakas seems like a better idea.

[Trans Am]

Lol, by untapping it? Krakas seems like a better idea.

intuitive my nuts.

[JonBarber]

Yeah, I heard if you untap something in response to it being declared as an attacker, it doesnt do damage to you.

That makes no sense.


And yeah, karakas is on color for this deck too, good call. Tap karakas to brainstorm EOT is so broken.

link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sarcasm&ei=m2HeS5zCIsO78gbQg_SKBQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CBEQkAE)

[Trans Am]

Whats maze of ith ?

No idea man.


link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sarcasm&ei=m2HeS5zCIsO78gbQg_SKBQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CBEQkAE)

link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Adouche)

[JonBarber]

I make up quotes cause I'm that cool.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))

[practical joke]

As long as I deep analysis in a reanimate deck, I worry about the player.

Though they are quite nice results, and I wonder why he lost to ANT?! That should not be to hard to win.

This deck will be a DTB soon, you simply can't ignore the deck anymore. The playset of extirpates I already play are a miracle maker, even though coffin purge seems like a very solid plan as well.

[4eak]

I'm not sure if Reanimator will be in the DTBF. Here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Deckcheck-DTB-Data%20--%20Feb%20to%20Present.html) is compiled list of decks from +33 man tournaments dating from February to present. The very recent SCG data isn't included. 10 Reanimator decks are found in this data. That isn't a ton. It is possible though.

Thompson's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32455) had some very puzzling choices to me, particularly:


The second Inkwell
Deep Analysis (Entomb->DA isn't very hot)
Minamo, School At Water's Edge
Gatekeeper Of Malakir (can't be kicked off Reanimation, and triple black when hardcast -- prefer Gilded Drake, especailly as Black is usually the correct call from opposing Iona)
The second Coffin Purge (extirpate is better, imho)
Realm Razer (is it really that great/necessary?)




peace,
4eak

[XiaN]

Ok folks then i'll speed up the primer a bit. I have a large thread already lying around here. I just have to format it a little bit and check for spelling errors a second time.

I was pretty impressed by Sadistic Sacrament as SB Tech against reanimator. It got Alix H. pretty well in his second game against ANT, because he ( like most of us do ) sided out a couple of creatures and didn't have any creature left after an extirpate followed by Sadistic Sacrament.

The new primer will be up this week. Stay tuned guys :)

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not sure if Reanimator will be in the DTBF. Here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6630203/Deckcheck-DTB-Data%20--%20Feb%20to%20Present.html) is compiled list of decks from +33 man tournaments dating from February to present. The very recent SCG data isn't included. 10 Reanimator decks are found in this data. That isn't a ton. It is possible though.
Yes, but this deck has some of the best Top 8 penetration in the format. Or Top X penetration, really. Anyone who is seriously planning on going to Columbus should be testing against Reanimator.


Thompson's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32455) had some very puzzling choices to me, particularly:


The second Inkwell
Deep Analysis (Entomb->DA isn't very hot)
Minamo, School At Water's Edge
Gatekeeper Of Malakir (can't be kicked off Reanimation, and triple black when hardcast -- prefer Gilded Drake, especailly as Black is usually the correct call from opposing Iona)
The second Coffin Purge (extirpate is better, imho)
Realm Razer (is it really that great/necessary?)

I don't know the answers to these, but I'll guess at some of them anyway:

- Minamo can only be for Iona. It might help in situations where he's racing by giving him something that can attack, then profitably block incoming Tarmogoyfs. It seems good until you realize that it doesn't play well with Daze or against Wasteland. At the very least, it could be decent against Zoo.

- Razer seems to be an answer specifically for Lands. Why you'd go for this over something like Inkwell Leviathan (which blue Lands can't block anyway) is beyond me. It's not like they can seriously race Inkwell or anything.

[jazzykat]

As long as I deep analysis in a reanimate deck, I worry about the player.

Though they are quite nice results, and I wonder why he lost to ANT?! That should not be to hard to win.


All things equa,l it's not the easiest thing in the world easier. They are probably faster by at least half a turn. They also have some protection. Also, 1 hit from a fatty probably won't end your chances of comboing off with AdN (although you'll need a little luck).

IMO they have about 4 turns to win in, and that is doable.

[stacker]

Wouldnt it also help to keep their iona at bay until you could find an answer ?

Minamo is not a maze of Ith, you would only be giving their Iona vigiliance.

[MarTian]

It seems curious to me that all of the reanimator builds at the tournament did not splash green. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Almost everyone in this this thread as of late seems to be a major proponent of the green splash. What are the benefits/drawbacks? Obviously a little less consistently (this is probably negligible), but what else? I can see no clear benefit of keeping green out.

[practical joke]

As long as LSV doesn't splash green, why the heck would anyone do that?
It's not like counterbalance becomes a problem?

Anyways, originally I splashed green for the not-so-awesome card: "gutturel response" and grips in SB , yes it did won me a few matches. (wasn't playing with dazes MB and with putrid imps).

I also still think the artifact SB cards should be at least 3, and 3 of the same. ( either 3 peedle or 3 null rod, and with the rise of karakas in MB's I think peedle remains the better option)

Also, I'm a proponent for green splash, it's very rarely getting in the way, you can easily find it. If they waste it, you already used the green card to win. There are hardly any disadvantages to that.

I'll have to take a closer look to the decklists, minamo is fine in it's uses, but it's HORRIBLE as a 1-off. you hardly find it, it sucks completely, but it does make the MU against zoo better. that's about all it does.

Gatekeeper of malakir, please don't. I'd rather use fleshbag marauder instead, at least that one DOES work and also my fav inclusion for gilded drake. ( I never used it in my first tournament I won, and now I even removed it from my SB since I'll win the mirror differently)
To be honest, sometimes I don't call black in the mirror, but blue instead. Taking them out of the game to remove my iona, the'll have to come up with an answer to my creature which is reanimate/exhuming another iona without getting countered. At this poinst a single counterspell could prove gamewinning.

Sadistic sacrament is GREAT against reanimate, that's why I keep playing 4 creatures at least after SB-ing. ( against ANT it's sphinx, 3x iona)
The life-gain can also be game-winning.
Sadistic is also great against ANT. ( yes, it instantwins it) I use a singleton extract and that's already winning me games singlehandedly against ANT. ( I also board it in against 43.land to get their horribly annoying glacial chasm lock out of the game.)

Xian, I'm very curious about your primer = )

[Davetradint]

Hi friends!
Managed to top8 yesterday in a small tournament (37ppl).

I used a green splash in my SB:
2x K Grip
2x Nature's Claim
1x Reverent Silence

As well as a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the maindeck.

Rounds were:
Planeswalker control: 2-1
Landstill: 2-0
Zoo: 2-1
UBr Fatestalker (Teammate): 1-2
Rock: 1-2 (in extremis)
Canadian (Teammate): 2-0 (I had better chances to top8 so we agreed to this)

Top8 I had to play against my teammate Fatestalker and got pwned 2-1 again. It's very hard for me: Wastes, stifles, spell pierces after sideboard, dazes, fows, etc...

I did not play any rituals or petals, but had no mana problems. I'm thinking about raising the land count from 16 to 17, or using 2 island and 2 swamp instead of 1x each and 1x trop 1x bayou.
Maybe Needles can be useful, although not tutorable.

Could anyone show us a sideboard without green?

Edit: Why is Dream Halls Combo a DtB and not Reanimator????

[menace13]

Hi friends!
Managed to top8 yesterday in a small tournament (37ppl).

I used a green splash in my SB:
2x K Grip
2x Nature's Claim
1x Reverent Silence

As well as a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the maindeck.

Rounds were:
Planeswalker control: 2-1
Landstill: 2-0
Zoo: 2-1
UBr Fatestalker (Teammate): 1-2
Rock: 1-2 (in extremis)
Canadian (Teammate): 2-0 (I had better chances to top8 so we agreed to this)

Top8 I had to play against my teammate Fatestalker and got pwned 2-1 again. It's very hard for me: Wastes, stifles, spell pierces after sideboard, dazes, fows, etc...

I did not play any rituals or petals, but had no mana problems. I'm thinking about raising the land count from 16 to 17, or using 2 island and 2 swamp instead of 1x each and 1x trop 1x bayou.
Maybe Needles can be useful, although not tutorable.

Could anyone show us a sideboard without green?

Edit: Why is Dream Halls Combo a DtB and not Reanimator????

Tempo decks are a pain in the arse to face with Animator, at least imo. 2 Swamps 1 Island is my current config(17 lands) with Trop and Bayou. Check out SCG ATL 5k Top 16 had 3 Animator decks and Practical Joke has a non green sb a few pages back as well. Needles are pretty good esp when op has Macabre, but must be x2/3 since they cant be searched out.

Oh and as far as the DTB section.. One word....Cavius biiyootchh!!!

[4eak]

@ Aggro_zombies


Yes, but this deck has some of the best Top 8 penetration in the format. Or Top X penetration, really. Anyone who is seriously planning on going to Columbus should be testing against Reanimator.

I definitely agree that people should test against Reanimator. It is a good deck. I'm just saying that, from a cursory glance, the deck isn't guaranteed to be in the DTBF, although it is quite possible (given the penetration of the deck in large tournaments).


I don't know the answers to these, but I'll guess at some of them anyway.

I should have been clearer. I know the ways in which they should be used. My confusion boils down to my belief that there are substantially better options for the slots mentioned.


@ MarTian


It seems curious to me that all of the reanimator builds at the tournament did not splash green. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

If you go by the results I listed, which don't include the results from the past day, 5 of the 10 Reanimator decks which made top 8 in +33 person tournaments did splash green.

Unless you expect a ton of Faerie Macabre, I think green is the way to go. Null Rod and Pithing Needle played with redundancy have their own virtues--but I truly despise the fact that Mystical Tutor doesn't pick them up. In a tight control match, I still prefer instant speed non-permanent based answers.

In many of cases, bounce is just as good as green. However, it is in the closer games and matchups where you appreciate the permanent removal.




peace,
4eak

[stacker]

for anyone watching the coverage

it looked like alix kept in 3 (inky, iona, and ?) the game he got sad sacced versus ANT

gerry kept in 4 (2 inky, 2 iona) g2 and 4 (1 inky, 2 iona, and 1 razor) g3

thoughts on whats the optimal creatures to keep? i guess because of sad sac we should be keeping in 2+1+1 or 2+2 for a total of 4 creatures

[practical joke]

That's what I do when I play against black, you can go entomb for a target. They can't hit anything in the grave with Sad sac.
It's annoying as hell, when in Gp Madrid, I had to draw against the mirror due to a sad sac. ( he took my only outs away, sucks)

I also had a sad sac against me when playing against ANT, I won since I still remained to play 4 creatures, just to be sure. ( entombing an iona was also good riddance)

If you are not playing against black and use a build that relies on entomb heavily, you can go down to 2 creatures. If you play against black you can go to 4, I wouldn't dare to take a risk against sad. sac.

Also when you haven't seen it. ( seize or anything) you could gamble on it in G3 and lower your creatures again.
It's all risky.

[Captain Hammer]

If you're siding green solely against hate, I feel that white has steller hate as well.

Serenity is nuts against tons of matchups and most hate for example. White has tons of creature removal and enchantment and artifact destruction.


Ok folks then i'll speed up the primer a bit. I have a large thread already lying around here. I just have to format it a little bit and check for spelling errors a second time.

I was pretty impressed by Sadistic Sacrament as SB Tech against reanimator. It got Alix H. pretty well in his second game against ANT, because he ( like most of us do ) sided out a couple of creatures and didn't have any creature left after an extirpate followed by Sadistic Sacrament.

The new primer will be up this week. Stay tuned guys :)

Are you going to mention maindecking Tombstalker as a 3 of and Intuition as a 2 of and the utility of Thoughtseize against Fairie Macabre, and discarding your own Iona in the primer? I think you should.

[XiaN]

Stalker yes, but Intuition is not included in any presented list.

[Jon Stewart]

Intuition seems really flexible. Plus it's blue, so it's never really dead. I don't understand why so few people here seem willing to even test it.

[JonBarber]

Intuition seems really flexible. Plus it's blue, so it's never really dead. I don't understand why so few people here seem willing to even test it.

I tested with intuition for awhile, and found it underwhelming. Its sort of a "one time tutor" and makes your late game get MUCH worse.

[practical joke]

Look around page 53 or so, the deck I played in oktober was with intuition, I started with that card as a singleton tutor target. In the end the card seemed to be to slow and hardly relevant.
Nowadays ppl play only 4 creatures ( or 7) and intuition will lack targets or speed when it comes down.

how good intuition might be, it isn't fast enough for reanimate. Getting things in the grave in T3 and reanimating at T4 is quite slow. ( yes versatility is important, but what are you going to find at T4 when the gamewinner is already decided by an earlier reanimation or a dead you)

[menace13]

Have any Animator decks with Tombtalker in main win anything anywhere?

[XiaN]

Because its a pretty "fresh wind" in reanimator .. i think not. I'll take mine to a tournament this weekend.

But as stated above, the test results where very very good imo.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I was at Atlanta this weekend and I must say Reanimator was absolutely everywhere, as well as ANT. I lost to Jesse Hatfield in the first round and John Cuvieler in the 5th round to put me out, but in the first 5 rounds I played vs. 3 Reanimator decks. John missed top 8 by one game which was the round 8 mirror-match and the last open he top 8'd with Reanimator so had pairing gone a little different we could have seen 1/2 of the top 8 being Reanimator. Atleast I can be content that I got knocked out by 2 strong players. Reanimator is really strong right now on the back of Iona. The DTB forum needs to be updated, some of those decks are rarely played anymore and way past their prime. Reanimator belongs in it.

[practical joke]

@ Xian: it's not really a fresh wind, the card has been discussed before.
There's simply not a single card I would prefer to remove to add a singleton tombstalker even.
After sideboarding it "might" seem promising, but I do honestly wonder where all the unused removal is sticking then.

[Deviruchi]

Realm Razer (is it really that great/necessary?)


Hmm, this creature won game 2 & 3 vs Lands for GerryT and is quite a nice tech vs ANT if you have Null Rod in play and they have already extirpated Iona or something. I think it was a metagame call cause on this kind of "Legacy Open" Lands.dec are always on top tables. I'm not sure it is needed and I can't find room in SB for this.

[practical joke]

If you play well, you'll win from lands without much problem.

Board in all grips/bounce/claims, get rid of the leyline.
extirpate loam, win. ( or chasm lock)

inkwell = win
iona, sphinx of the steel wind = stalling untill you drop inkwell leviathan and then win.

No real big deal here.

It's crap against ANT, since they'll bounce the fatty, and then blow the combo straight in your face.


How the heck did he lose G1 against lands?! ( not read a report)

It's a decent tech against lands, but for hell I won't play it.
what if this happens, play taiga, play barbarian ring. EoT nuke the creature, play loam. get random land + ring on hand.

voila, the card tech is wasted. Lands has no problem filling their graveyard.

[4eak]

I wrote this while Ol' P.J. was responding. Don't take the redundancy to be rudeness. I completely agree with practical joke though.


Hmm, this creature won game 2 & 3 vs Lands for GerryT and is quite a nice tech vs ANT if you have Null Rod in play and they have already extirpated Iona or something. I think it was a metagame call cause on this kind of "Legacy Open" Lands.dec are always on top tables. I'm not sure it is needed and I can't find room in SB for this

Inkwell Leviathan gets the job done in a ton of cases. If the Lands player knew you were playing Realm Razer (which is what should be anticipated if Realm Razer is really "worth it"), he'd hold a manland + land back to punish it as well. Getting Chasm-locked is something I'd be worried about, but if the Lands pilot plays correctly, Realm Razer doesn't solve that problem either. Coffin Purge/Extirpate/any GY hate are amazing in this matchup. I'd rather have more GY hate than Razer.

2-3 answers to GY hate and 2-3 pieces of your own GY hate should be plenty for this matchup.




peace,
4eak

[stacker]

lsv posted another playthrough where he 4-0ed a modo daily

totally learned nothing from watching it

watching the modo replays of the legacy daily that ended a couple hours ago, lsv 3-1ed and did switch to gerry's build and added back the deep anal as well as the 1-of minomo. it was hilarious watching his 3rd round goblin player attack his chieftain into a tapped iona and then saying 'oh, i thought it was a karakas'

not a lsv fanboy, but i'm trying to get all the help i can get leading up to GP columbus

[practical joke]

lsv is definately testing the deck to it's limits.

He's far from original when it comes to builds, nothing besides either obvious choises or cards that he wants tested before he takes it to GP columbus. ( he'll probably get a better result there with renimate than at GP Madrid with enchantress)

If you want my advice, stop looking at minomo and deep analysis. ( oh no, I give up my keycard to pay 3 life, 2 more mana to net me effectively 1 card)

something is definately wrong with that card's choise.

Non-tutorable cards suck by definition as a 1-off. How smooth is sounds to be able to untap your iona.
You'll win anyways when you drop a fine fatty like that, and what are the odds you'll see that land in a 100 matches?
I'm not willing to spend my brainstorms and ponders to find a SPECIFIC 1-DROP.


if you ask me, playtest yourself and build the version of your own liking. ( petals, singleton ritual, 1-4 studies, creature ammount, ponders, creature choices) There are tons of things that you can change to your own preference. toy with it.
I don't wanna see ppl following behind lsv, because he only build the deck AFTER GP Madrid, how good a player he might be, he hasn't tested the deck enough yet.
The builds he plays online confirm that also the way he plays confirms that.

[Davetradint]

For those who play the deck or have been playing it durind the last months:
how do you beat tempo decks?
Do you try to read the game by smart play according to your opening hand?
Do you follow any specific pattern?
Has anyone tried Carpet of Flowers?

[menace13]

lsv is definately testing the deck to it's limits.

He's far from original when it comes to builds, nothing besides either obvious choises or cards that he wants tested before he takes it to GP columbus. ( he'll probably get a better result there with renimate than at GP Madrid with enchantress)

If you want my advice, stop looking at minomo and deep analysis. ( oh no, I give up my keycard to pay 3 life, 2 more mana to net me effectively 1 card)

something is definately wrong with that card's choise.

Non-tutorable cards suck by definition as a 1-off. How smooth is sounds to be able to untap your iona.
You'll win anyways when you drop a fine fatty like that, and what are the odds you'll see that land in a 100 matches?
I'm not willing to spend my brainstorms and ponders to find a SPECIFIC 1-DROP.


if you ask me, playtest yourself and build the version of your own liking. ( petals, singleton ritual, 1-4 studies, creature ammount, ponders, creature choices) There are tons of things that you can change to your own preference. toy with it.
I don't wanna see ppl following behind lsv, because he only build the deck AFTER GP Madrid, how good a player he might be, he hasn't tested the deck enough yet.
The builds he plays online confirm that also the way he plays confirms that.

I was his only loss in rd3( i lucksacd a bit), he mulled to 4 g1 and i was able to play 3 1 drops and bolts before he could Exhume and g3 Macabre-Crypt got FoWd and my Blast got Dazed g2 so he never saw Macabre- and Pyroblast on Study sealed it(ended up losing to a friend with DnT and 4cStill-seems even post board does DnT- to miss out on placing). I agree a 1 of that can not be tutored is bad, even though he got Minamo down g2 and that stopped any race i could hope for. I enjoy the guy's videos and watching his sbing.

[death]

How the heck did he lose G1 against lands?! ( not read a report)

After resolving Iona, he chose blue. Land player replayed Lftl ad infinitum.

[dontbiteitholmes]

On the other page people were speculating as to when the green splash would not be the right choice. One case when it could really hurt is vs. blue based tempo decks where a forest in play opens you up to submerge. Of course counterbalance is the best case for grip in the sb but when most of the counterbalance based decks run 3-4 submerges in the sb it can hurt to run in a forest instead of wipe away the hate then combo out. Of course inkwell is boss here but with war monk and crew or jitte they could race.

[VsTheWorld]

I've been running a U/B build similar to what LSV and GerryT are playing and Counterbalance hasn't proven to be THAT much of an issue. We play more disruption than they do and turn 1 Thoughtseize on the play goes a long way towards beating it. Sometimes you just have to play into a blind CB and hope it doesn't hit. If they spend counters protecting the CB then you can hope to just resolve stuff through it. I prefer the manabase stability offered by U/B over the SB options of 3 color. Too many times I would draw the Bayou or Tropical Island and get screwed by Wasteland from tempo decks.

[practical joke]

Against counterbalance and submerge.

You do not fetch for a bayou when you don't need it, also you don't play it when you do not need it.
easy as that, you don't open yourself to submerge when you don't need to do so.

When you play iona, you either choose white or blue. ( depends on how many counters you have on hand when iona resolves!!)
If you have acces to an empyrial or leviathan. You only need to counter their rwm.
Remember they won't race an inkwell leviathan when exhumed.
Keep a bounce, and you'll slow the deck untill he's done for.

Just think about what can kill you, then solve it with what you have acces to.

in this case, top+cb= krosan grip, show and tell, drop something before that, duress/seize, daze/force/spell pierce
RWM outracing you = bounce, drop more creatures/go for a standstill untill you get 2. ( if you do empyrial archangel becomes a house, she's by far the best second creature available. She just sucks as a first target, which makes her quite dissapointing to play)
Submerge being free= don't fetch for green unless you have no choise nor playing green, shroud creatures, seize before you play. Some don't even play submerge/ try to keep a few counters ready ( in this case you win anyways).

How the F* do you get screwed by a single wasteland when you run their build, if you do. you should've taken a mulligan
this means two fetchable lands towards green and plenty of fetch to find it so.

SOLUTION: get that terrible minamo out of the list and play a decent land!

[Jon Stewart]

Just think about what can kill you, then solve it with what you have acces to.

in this case, top+cb= krosan grip, show and tell, drop something before that, duress/seize, daze/force/spell pierce
RWM outracing you = bounce, drop more creatures/go for a standstill untill you get 2. ( if you do empyrial archangel becomes a house, she's by far the best second creature available. She just sucks as a first target, which makes her quite dissapointing to play)
Submerge being free= don't fetch for green unless you have no choise nor playing green, shroud creatures, seize before you play. Some don't even play submerge/ try to keep a few counters ready ( in this case you win anyways).

Ok, but what cards do you side out of the maindeck for all these cards (Grip, Show and Tell, Duress, Bounce etc) without significantly hurting your ability to combo out

[practical joke]

Against counterbalance.
Only krosan grip and 2 nature's claim.

I play the petal build, I win this match to outspeed it. I rarely go off T3 or later.
Why? I play 3 iona, 1 inkwell, 1 blazing, 1 sphinx. 4 of those are very good targets. The chances are good enough to find either an entomb or carefull with a creature in the first 9-10 cards.

I don't need show and tell for this match-up and play 4 seizes mainboard.
boarding out.

sphinx of the steel wind.
1 exhume
1 blazing archon

[4eak]

I board almost the same as practical joke. Assuming I won game 1:

-1 Daze (Daze is still fairly strong in game 2 against CB, imho)
-1 Sphinx
-1 Blazing Archon
-2 Exhume

+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Nature's Claim
+1 Show and Tell (it usually plays around 8 nasty artifacts/enchantments -- CB + Artifact GY hate)
+1 Perish or (the 2nd) Nature's Claim -- depending on the creaturebase of the CB deck

Of course, I'm using 18-lands (and Ponder in my selective build). I would not recommend siding in so many 3cc spells for anyone piloting PJ's build.





peace,
4eak

[dontbiteitholmes]

Food for thought. When I played vs. John Cuvelier I already knew he was playing Reanimator when I sat down because his deck was posted online and I recognized the name and pulled up the list before I went to the table. We were both 2-1-1 at that point so I told him I knew what he was playing, I knew he top 8'd last time, and that I knew he wouldn't change up a winning deck too much. He told me the only change he did was to bump up the land count and he was still having problems with being land light that resulted in his poor record 1/2 way through the tournament. Turns out what he didn't tell me was that he added green for SB options. The deck is already land light, one bad Wasteland and you are at square zero. Joke, you throw out mulligan like it is not even a thing, but game 1 when you are sitting there holding your first 7 and looking at 2 non-basics Entomb and Exhume it's not as easy to throw it back. On the other side of the coin it's very easy to mull yourself into oblivion and having your non-basic forests only pop up when you need them in not an exact science. In reality sometimes you have to mull multiple times and keep the 5 card grip just because it has a land and a Brainstorm. The green splash might very well be worth it, but I don't see the logic in planning on Claiming Counterbalance when that is instant failure with Top in play not to mention it may put them in race distance with the 4 life swing. Wipe Away accomplishes the same goal, EOT Wipe, untap, combo, same with Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth. Green may be the answer but I'm not being convinced by anything I'm reading here.

[Sims]

Food for thought. When I played vs. John Cuvelier I already knew he was playing Reanimator when I sat down because his deck was posted online and I recognized the name and pulled up the list before I went to the table. We were both 2-1-1 at that point so I told him I knew what he was playing, I knew he top 8'd last time, and that I knew he wouldn't change up a winning deck too much. He told me the only change he did was to bump up the land count and he was still having problems with being land light that resulted in his poor record 1/2 way through the tournament. Turns out what he didn't tell me was that he added green for SB options. The deck is already land light, one bad Wasteland and you are at square zero. Joke, you throw out mulligan like it is not even a thing, but game 1 when you are sitting there holding your first 7 and looking at 2 non-basics Entomb and Exhume it's not as easy to throw it back. On the other side of the coin it's very easy to mull yourself into oblivion and having your non-basic forests only pop up when you need them in not an exact science. In reality sometimes you have to mull multiple times and keep the 5 card grip just because it has a land and a Brainstorm. The green splash might very well be worth it, but I don't see the logic in planning on Claiming Counterbalance when that is instant failure with Top in play not to mention it may put them in race distance with the 4 life swing. Wipe Away accomplishes the same goal, EOT Wipe, untap, combo, same with Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth. Green may be the answer but I'm not being convinced by anything I'm reading here.

So far I'm splashing green to test it out. I was running fine on a basic heavy, 18 land B/U build and wasn't having issues... but as my local metagame started to pick up and I ran into 1 week where there was only 10 people who showed (i'm not sure why the number was low) but there was 5 decks with FoW, 3 of them Bant Countertop, I decided I'd start testing out the options of going into Grip in the board. I haven't tried Nature's Claim yet, as personally I'm not sure the extra speed is worth it in the 18 land, non petal/ritual build... But I do like the permanent aspect of Grip. Wipe away or Grip will both get the job done, but with Grip the counterbalance/meekstone/leyline/whatever isn't getting replayed. I still run E.Truth main, and another E.Truth and Chain of Vapor in the side.. but if Grip doesn't prove to be as strong as I thought... it's getting replaced with bounce (wipe away probably) and the green is going buh-bye.

[practical joke]

Counterbalance+ top is near impossible to come by,

adding wipe away makes you have to do 3 things instead of 1:

- Make sure you get it bounced. ( assuming he doesn't have 3 on top)
- Either win next turn ( could be a challenge) or
- make sure the counterbalance is not returning.


the problem is, you still have to spend another card ( if he/she can interrupt your combo right there), to prevent it from returning, this is also the case for any non-token card you do that for. You simply don't want some cards to be returning back to play.
Since we already trade cards 2-1 pretty much, I tried to avoid doing this again. Hence started playing a minor green splash a lot.
Krosan grip solves the problem right there.

Also green gives acces to more interesting cards like:

Xantid swarm
reverent silence
maelstrom pulse
Pernicious deed.

Though slow, they are incredibly strong.


Now why would you trade things 2 for 1, when it can be helped with, with a very minor splash.


Also, a losing match can be returned a lot of times by a bad mulligan choise, if your hand isn't strong enough you should mulligan.
It might sound like I throw my hands away easily, if that's what it takes me to win, no problem.
for reanimate it's pretty important to start with a decent hand, if you don't. Ponders/brainstorms might not get you there at all!
You might not be convinced to splash green, but think about every situation you use bounce if krosan grip wasn't better when you play it.
EtW tokens are still getting returned by echoing truth.

[Lammina]

@ Pratical Joke and 4eak: could you post the lists thats you uses in the moment?
I need a direction...

Thx for the help,

Lammina

[4eak]

@ dontbiteitholmes


The deck is already land light, one bad Wasteland and you are at square zero. Joke, you throw out mulligan like it is not even a thing, but game 1 when you are sitting there holding your first 7 and looking at 2 non-basics Entomb and Exhume it's not as easy to throw it back. On the other side of the coin it's very easy to mull yourself into oblivion and having your non-basic forests only pop up when you need them in not an exact science. In reality sometimes you have to mull multiple times and keep the 5 card grip just because it has a land and a Brainstorm.

The deck doesn't have to be land-light; I highly suggest 17 or 18 lands (which isn't all that light with so many cantrips). Additionally, Wasteland isn't usually going to ruin your day when you play correctly.

Let's consider your circumstance a bit closer though. Let's assume 18 lands (since Wasteland is a concern), comprised of 10x Fetch, 4 Seas, 1 Swamp, 1 Island, and either Bayou/Trop or an extra set of Swamp/Island.

Given that you expecting to use black mana on both turns 1 and 2 (and produce a colorless on the latter), it means you must play a black source first. This issue is complicated by the fact that, if you must produce black mana on turns 1 and 2, a non-basic black source and either Tropical Island or the extra basic Island amount to the same risk against an opposing wasteland, as the non-basic black source must be played before the blue source in order to have black mana on turn 1. Pure U/B's extra basic Island doesn't curb the risk in this case, although the extra swamp does.

Both the Green splash and pure U/B share the majority of the cases where Wasteland prevents them from going Entomb turn 1 and Exhume turn 2. The only difference in risk boils down to opening that extra swamp vs. Bayou. In the face of a guaranteed available wasteland on our first land, even in the domain of strictly opening 2-lands (and seeing no more), which is where your case about Wasteland is made the strongest, less than 1% of those opening hands will amount to pure U/B being able to produce :b: on turn 1 and :b::1: on turn 2, where the green splash cannot.

Surely, you can see that your example isn't the best for showing how pure U/B is all that much better against wasteland. We're talking about a miniscule difference here.

Additionally, we should consider the overall risk of running into a turn 1 wasteland in competitive Legacy. So far in 2010, according to Deckcheck:


1205 placing decks (I haven't weighted them according to size of the tournaments)
Wasteland is played in 499 of them
~41.4% of tournament placing decks in Legacy are playing Wasteland
1750 total Wastelands played (3.5 wastelands per deck that plays them)

That should work out to be something like a ~35-36% chance at 7 cards, ~39-40% chance at 8 cards, and ~43-44% chance at 9 cards for the average deck packing wasteland to open (and draw step into) a wasteland. This obviously does not include card selection effects (which would improve those odds) or proper mulligans (which would diminish those odds).

In a blind game one, assuming you play a dual land on turn 1, on the play, against the field of competitive Legacy decks, you have a ~16% chance to eat a wasteland (if your opponent so chooses) on the opponent's turn 1. On the draw, you have an ~18% chance to eat a wasteland on your opponent's turn 2.

I'd keep the hand you proposed.



The green splash might very well be worth it, but I don't see the logic in planning on Claiming Counterbalance when that is instant failure with Top in play not to mention it may put them in race distance with the 4 life swing. Wipe Away accomplishes the same goal, EOT Wipe, untap, combo, same with Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth. Green may be the answer but
I'm not being convinced by anything I'm reading here.

Wipe away does not accomplish the same goal because it isn't permanent removal. It only gives you a brief window of opportunity to combo. If you fail, perhaps because of opposing permission, GY-hate, or an answer to your reanimation target, then Counterbalance is like to come down again, but this time you'll be down an answer to it. For permanent answers you've generally bought yourself a much larger window of opportunity (when the next major hate spell would resolve).

Permanent removal is outstanding when facing multiple hate cards (4x CB + 4x artifact-GY-Hate) in play, but also excellent when you fail to reanimate (and protect it). Blue options give you no room for failure or multiple-attempts; green's permanent removal gives you many more options and the breathing room to fail or even the time to actually find your combo. Blue answers force you to compress the entire sequence of events into a very small window, and green doesn't. Green can answer the card and continue to build during a much larger window. Essentially, green's strengths are substantial when you have the least resources (or when you were in a losing battle otherwise), and roughly the same power level as blue's answers when you have godhands against weaker opposing hands. Where Wipe away works, Grip almost always works, but generally you'll find many cases where permanent removal can lead to a win where temporary solutions like bounce will not.

Also, green isn't played for just Nature's Claim, and Claim isn't necessarily used for the CBTop lock. The fully assembled CBTop lock isn't guaranteed either; Claim can often enough hit the lone CB. And, in some circumstances, with careful play (setting up a trap), you can get Claim to resolve through a fully assembled CBTop. I generally don't prefer Claim against CB, obviously. Nature's Claim is largely targeting GY-hate, not CB. In many cases, Nature's Claim is going to be a retardly cheap and permanent answer to an early GY-hate card, often where CB isn't even in play or you don't have the mana to play Grip.

Reanimator's redundancy and tool-boxy card selection, alongside a roughly equivalent control shell, briefly allows Reanimator to stand toe-to-toe in attrition battles against CB decks. Grip, in particular, is very strong in this matchup; I suggest running at least 2.




peace,
4eak

[Lammina]

@ Pratical Joke and 4eak: could you post the lists thats you uses in the moment?
I need a direction...

Thx for the help,

Lammina

Please?

[4eak]

@ Lammina

I posted this last week on page 70.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-%5BDeck%5D-B-U-Reanimator&p=452515&viewfull=1#post452515) are my current lists (I have 2).

I prefer the selective build, but I want to note that I do appreciate practical joke's type of build (and strategy). If you are willing and able to play and mulligan very aggressively (going for the Belcher-type blowouts), and your metagame is overwhelmingly pwned by Iona, then I would suggest speedy version.




peace,
4eak

[royal]

Hi,

could you guys please explain why you prefer Ponder to Careful Study. The chance to have a creature and careful study in your opening hand is about 38% (with 7 creatures in the deck). In my opinion this is quite a lot and really makes the deck faster.

Thank you very much,

royal

[4eak]

This has been discussed in the past 20 or so pages. Here are my thoughts:


Admittedly, Careful Study is not everyone's favorite card in attrition wars. I'd still wager that the speed and versatility it provides overcomes the few times the card actually amounts to raw card disadvantage. From what I understand, if you have both a Careful Study and an Island in your opening hand, and you are on the play, these are the odds of seeing a creature [including what you draw from Study]:

Number of Reanimation targets in Deck: approximate % chance to have at least one creature to discard to Study
3: 32%
4: 41%
5: 49%
6: 56%
7: 61%
8: 67%

Now, obviously there are many cases where you won't blindly careful study. You will do it from time to time though. Sometimes you won't find it necessary to get a creature into the GY. Perhaps you are digging for protection/disruption, a land, or a reanimation effect.

Yes, with 5-7 creatures in the deck, you have very good odds to use Careful Study to pitch a creature. Against jank, any random creature + minimal protection will usually go the distance (Study makes the deck very fast in these cases). However, against more specific matchups (one's with particular needs), I don't want just some random creature, I want a specific one. In difficult matches (where I only want 1 or 2 targets, and care nothing for the others) and especially games 2 and 3 with proper sideboarding, Careful Study isn't so hot. Study is not fast at finding the exact target you want.

I have to admit that after further testing, I am growing fonder of Ponder. Ponder is much slower than Careful study at putting just any random bomb into GY/play, but it is substantially faster at putting the exact creature you want into play. In games 2 and 3, where I'm very often siding out useless Reanimation targets, Careful study becomes substantially weaker. Furthermore, Ponder improves the odds of seeing the cards which I've sided in. Using Ponder relieves pressure off Mystical Tutor (which has to fulfill so many functions in this deck), and it lowers the number of mulligans I take.

I really think it is worth slowing down (by running fewer Careful Study) against matches where we don't care which target we Reanimate (which are usually easy matches to begin with) in order to speed up against the matches that have more specific reanimation target requirements and greater need of our sideboard cards (by improving our overall card selection through Ponder).

5-6 cards [particularly swapping Study and Ponder] makes a pretty big difference in the actual overall strategy. Unlike the selective approach, [Careful Study builds] overwhelmingly target Iona. Without needing to be selective (and bottlenecking through Entomb), a full set of Careful Study and Iona gives you fairly high odds to quickly reanimate the creature you wanted in the first place (Iona).

Ponder is for a build which needs selection in both reanimation targets and sideboarding and perhaps greater manabase stability. In my opinion, selective Reanimation builds are more difficult to pilot, but we have a larger set of games in which it can win. You have more chances to leverage your playskill in this case.

Careful Study (at 4x) is for speed and expecting to win off the back of Iona in the majority of cases. This is a more straightfoward and aggressive approach to the deck; I expect to see more people playing this version. It relies upon winning with a random fatty more often and from time to time, it sacrifices CA, consistency, is less able to fight attrition wars, and overextends; however, unlike the distant cousin Belcher, it still has good control measures and a much easier time recovering from a failed attempt.





peace,
4eak

[practical joke]

I'm a bit drunk ( 11 am, I should sleep), so I'll only post my list for now.
Any further argumentation will follow later (when I'm capable of doing so)

10 fetch
1 bayou
3 underground sea
1 island
1 swamp

4 lotus petal
4 careful study
4 brainstorm
4 force
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 daze
3 mystical tutor ( don't be mistaken, a fourth will be squeezed in there, I have not yet decided where/how what and when)
4 thoughtseize ( not yet changing a seize for a mystical)
1 echoing truth

3 iona,
1 inkwell leviathan
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 blazing archon ( I really hated this card, but in the end it prove to be quite useful)


Sb. Well i change my SB to often, but this is a general selection I use often. This is also what I'm testing at this moment.

1 extract
1 show and tell
1 akroma angel of wrath
4 extirpate
1 krosan grip
3 nature's claim
4 xantid swarms

[lordofthepit]

PJ, in what specific matchups would you want to board in Akroma over the other creatures you have? What other sideboard cards would you bring in for those matchups, and what would you swap out?

[Jon Stewart]

When do you side in Extract and what cards do you extract?

[Davetradint]

On Sunday I went to a little-medium tournament (50 ppl).
The thing ended 4-2.
Only lost against Depths and Zoo. Depths was hard as hell, but I could have won the Zoo matchup, just played like an idiot.
Won against White winnie, Painters, Enchantress and some cool deck using Sneak attack, show and tell and Emrakul.

I have taken green from the deck/sideboard, and never missed it.

This is the list i'm currently playing, just for reference:

4x Polluted
3x Misty
2x Verdant
4x U. Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island

4x FoW
4x Daze
3x Tseize
4x Brainstorm
4x careful S.
4x M. Tutor
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Show and Tell
1x Echoing T.

2x Iona
1x Sphinx
1x Inkwell L.
1x Empyrial
1x B. Archon

I'm thinking about playing only 16 lands again. I've been very happy with 2 colours and stability providen by 4 basics. Show and tell was only once in many tournaments used for its main purpose. Every other time I used it for FoW.
Maybe i'd try a couple of Ponders 2-3. Thinking about cutting 1 land, 1 show and 1 tseize.

Sideboard was
4x Pithing Needle (these work great naming Wastelands, Tormods, Relics, etc)
4x Extirpate
3x Spell Pierce (not very happy with these ones)
2x Perish
1x Infest (not very happy)
1x Wipe Away (didn't use it, maybe i'll try another bouncer)

Comments? Help? Thanks guys!

[Oxmo39]

When do you side in Extract and what cards do you extract?

Extract is used to remove cards like Progenitus, Tendrils (since they usually play a singleton but look out at red-splashed versions ), glacial chasm (a real pain in the Lands MU).

There are certainly other situations I don't remember now, where it can be very useful.

@ people who don't play with the green splash :

How do you deal with the Bant match-up ? With their pridemages and their bounces, peedles look really suboptimal here...
My meta is infested by Bant decks so that i can not imagine playing this deck without the green-splash.
Furthermore, most of them begin to include countertop..

[Davetradint]

@ people who don't play with the green splash :

How do you deal with the Bant match-up ? With their pridemages and their bounces, peedles look really suboptimal here...
My meta is infested by Bant decks so that i can not imagine playing this deck without the green-splash.
Furthermore, most of them begin to include countertop..

If CB was so popular in my meta, I'd play green too. It's better destroying than bouncing, of course. Anyway, you must side in at least a couple of perish. With needle you can name qasali or tormods. If you name tormods, then you MUST counter qasali of course. Someone with more experience can tell a better tactic or so...

[jazzykat]

Just a brief check in as I've been testing but not posting lately.

@Perish: If you can get it up in time it usually ends the opponent, I am strongly considering 1 perish and 1 virtue's ruin because the vast majority of creatures I see are usually green and/or white (little green men and black nasties withstanding)

UBg vs. UB: I think the prevalence of CB and Enchantress warrants the g splash. I think that in a general meta it may not be so desirable in that of a heavy mana-denial meta being 2 colors is somewhat better.

Regarding Tombstalker in the main: not my cup of tea. Reanimating him is a lot of life for a vanilla 5/5 flyer.

Regarding Tombstalker in the board: I was a big proponent of him. HOWEVER, vs. certain types of hate that I hadn't fully respected until recently (Leyline, Withered Wretch :0, and to a lesser extent relic) he is not as good as I initially considered.

Regarding Null Rod: Initially I was grooving on it and 4eak brought up some good points especially about how it is non-tutorable. HOWEVER, when I draw it early, the game usually ends. I like the 2/1, needle/null rod split that LSV does.

Regarding my overall impression of the deck. I win almost every match I play on MWS (I realize that doesn't say much given the caliber of players BUT winning 80% of your matches is still something). It is my opinion that this deck is so flat out powerful and flexible that I'm still not playing it to the fullest and I'm blowing most people out.

Given the rather anomalous 4 out of a field of 8 reanimator players at Hadley, increasing top 8 penetration, and the fact that o'l LSV had to play this and put it up on youtube I'm mildly concerned that this is becoming the next countertop or zoo and everyone is playing it.

[XiaN]

The primer is almost done, but i'm currently extremely busy in RL. Sorry about that, but it will hit soon :frown:

PS : here (http://gheeds.org/board/showthread.php?1-Archetype-Reanimator) is the first half on styletesting, but not updated to my "intern" writeup. Feel free to commentate here ( NOT IN THE LINKED TEST-ONLY FORUM ! ) on the "finished" parts.

I highly need an generic sb for the green splash sb as well as the Null Rod one. Also some MU analysis would be highly appreciated.
And maybe an better MonoB list :laugh:

[whienot]

You should add the Exhume/Entomb trick as a means to fight hate. With one dude in the yard and an active Crypt/Relic on the battlefield, you cast Exhume, they remove the graveyard, with Exhume still on the stack you cast Entomb.

[Davetradint]

You should add the Exhume/Entomb trick as a means to fight hate. With one dude in the yard and an active Crypt/Relic on the battlefield, you cast Exhume, they remove the graveyard, with Exhume still on the stack you cast Entomb.

You can add something funny that happened to me: Opponent plays Painter and names Blue. You cast entomb and then Reanimate for Iona. Iona enters the battlefield and you name Blue.... Opponent concedes :P

[lordofthepit]

Ponder is for a build which needs selection in both reanimation targets and sideboarding and perhaps greater manabase stability. In my opinion, selective Reanimation builds are more difficult to pilot, but we have a larger set of games in which it can win. You have more chances to leverage your playskill in this case.

4eak, obviously, you've proposed a more selective build when expecting to face decks that require more specific reanimation targets and a more creature-heavy build using 4x Careful Study when you can win quickly by dumping a creature in to the graveyard with Careful Study. In the latter build, you recommend running 4x Iona, which is the usually the most powerful reanimation target.

If I follow your reasoning correctly, then, aside from the better ability of the "selective" build to win attrition wars, you might also want to run the selective build for the following reasons:

The default reanimation target in a lot of your matchups is NOT Iona, and/or
Some combination of 6 creatures, 1 Careful Study, and 3 Ponders (as opposed to 7 creatures, including 4 Ionas; and 4 Careful Study, but no Ponders), along with the Entombs, Mystical Tutors, and Thoughtseizes, gives you a better chance at dumping your Iona. I'm not convinced whether point #2 is true, at least reasonably early enough in the game where this would be relevant. If it were, it would be because this configuration allows you to either:

Find your discard/graveyard outlets better. But it seems that having three extra Careful Studies (plus the other discard/graveyard outlets) is better than having three extra Ponders to find those Careful Studies and other outlets.
In the absence of Entomb but with Careful Study, find your creatures better. In terms of finding creatures to dump, between the four Mystical Tutors and Entombs as direct ways of binning your creatures, and the four Brainstorms and Careful Studies to directly dig for your seven creatures, I feel that any improvement in this regard is marginal at best.

Can you address this? Would you be more likely to decide decision to run "selective Reanimator" in a metagame with a lot of Countertop (to better fight attrition battles, plus wanting Inkwell in particular)? Landstill (attrition battles, plus wanting Inkwell in particular)? Merfolk (attrition battles, plus wanting Archon in particular)? Goblins (wanting Sphinx or Akroma in particular)? Dredge (wanting Archon in particular)? It feels to me like in a lot of these cases, those specific "non-Iona" targets are a marginal improvement over Iona, if there is an improvement at all.

[royal]

The primer is almost done, but i'm currently extremely busy in RL. Sorry about that, but it will hit soon :frown:

PS : here (http://gheeds.org/board/showthread.php?1-Archetype-Reanimator) is the first half on styletesting, but not updated to my "intern" writeup. Feel free to commentate here ( NOT IN THE LINKED TEST-ONLY FORUM ! ) on the "finished" parts.

I highly need an generic sb for the green splash sb as well as the Null Rod one. Also some MU analysis would be highly appreciated.
And maybe an better MonoB list :laugh:

I´m really looking forward to this primer, nice work!

[4eak]

@ lordofthepit


The default reanimation target in a lot of your matchups is NOT Iona, and/or

I think Iona is the "default" Reanimation choice for any Reanimation deck. However, Iona is better in some metagames and board positions (and stages of the game) than others. Selective builds will still Reanimate Iona very often, but it will not want to choose Iona as often as speedy builds. Iona is default, but by a smaller margin.


Some combination of 6 creatures, 1 Careful Study, and 3 Ponders (as opposed to 7 creatures, including 4 Ionas; and 4 Careful Study, but no Ponders), along with the Entombs, Mystical Tutors, and Thoughtseizes, gives you a better chance at dumping your Iona.

As compared to 3-4x Iona, 4x Careful Study, etc., no way.

Essentially, there is a trade-off; you sacrifice some of your ability to put Iona (or random creature) into the GY, in return, you gain higher selection across the board. Ponders advantages aren't easy to prove in a compact formula.


It feels to me like in a lot of these cases, those specific "non-Iona" targets are a marginal improvement over Iona, if there is an improvement at all.

We may disagree on the value of Iona. For example, I consider Blazing Archon to be worlds better (not just a 'marginal improvement') against Merfolk and Dredge than any other target. I suggest testing for yourself.

Of course, I'm certainly a fan of Careful Study/Iona heavy builds in many metagames. I play both builds.




peace,
4eak

[sdematt]

I've played with and against this deck many times and have to say, it's really resilient! It's made quite a few showing, even in my area locally, and abroad. Anyone consider this to go on the DTB, or no? I'm just curious, the deck seems very, very solid.

[whienot]

Whenever the next DtB update is, Reanimator should definitely get the nod. Regardless of whatever forum it's in, if you plan on winning a big tournament, you'll need to be prepared for Reanimator.

Doug has an article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19323_Legacys_Allure_Cracking_Open_The_Reanimator_Mirror.html) up on SCG about the Reanimator mirror. It's a good resource for those wanting to play the deck, but aren't familiar with the nuances of the mirror.

[John Rohan]

Whenever the next DtB update is, Reanimator should definitely get the nod. Regardless of whatever forum it's in, if you plan on winning a big tournament, you'll need to be prepared for Reanimator.

Doug has an article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19323_Legacys_Allure_Cracking_Open_The_Reanimator_Mirror.html) up on SCG about the Reanimator mirror. It's a good resource for those wanting to play the deck, but aren't familiar with the nuances of the mirror.

That article was a little light on substance. He also doesn't mention that you need alternatives to black. For the mirror I would sideboard in all my blue cards (especially wipe away) and swap out with black (you might even consider taking out Exhume, which could hurt you more than help). The reason is that the opponent's most obvious choice is an Iona set to black, and you need a way to deal with it if your opponent gets there first. He also doesn't mention how devastating Inkwell Leviathan is in the mirror. The only tool most decks have to get rid of it is a Diabolic Edit, and if he has another creature out or even a man-land (like Mishra's Factory) then forget it.

I also like Animate Dead in the mirror. You can steal multiple creatures from your opponent's graveyard with no life loss.

[whienot]

The article is light on substance for those that have been playing the deck for awhile. However, there is an endless sea on noobiles picking it up.

The most obvious choice for Iona in the mirror (black) is often the wrong one. I've learned this from experience. If you reanimate first, you will usually win the damage race. Cutting off blue takes out their ability to tutor, counter, dig, and bounce. If they do have Entomb + Reanimate spell and you without a counter, the best they can do is legend kill your Iona. If they get Archon or Archangel, they still can't play blue spells and you are in a much better position. The exception is when you use Reanimate for Iona and they Exhume in Inkwell. Whether it is worse to have Iona bounced or sacrificed is debatable. If sacrificed, you are open to your opponent's Reanimate but makes their Exhume pretty bad. Iona's pretty useless in your hand.

Inkwell is answerable via either Empyrial Archangel, Blazing Archon or Edict. Sure, if you have counter backup you'll win, but Iona on Blue with counter backup is a win, too.

[John Rohan]

And now for something different: B/W Reanimator

I put this here for comments, since people in this thread are much more knowledgeable about Reanimator in general. You might also want to look at this if you are considering a white splash to your B/U deck.

This is just a preliminary list, and I'll refine it quite a bit over time. But even in this beta form, this thing is very competitive against tier1 decks. The main reason is Enlightened Tutor. Since he finds artifacts & enchantments, he can pick up any piece of the Reanimator combo you need, whether it's a fat creature (Inkwell, Sphinx), reanimate spell (Animate Dead, Recurring Nightmare), or a way to discard (Anvil). The card can also find the land you need (Ancient Den, Vault of Whispers), or get you threat removal (Seal, Executioners' Capsule, Runed Halo).

Also, this deck is not as vulnerable as B/U in one respect; both Black and White spells can complete the Reanimate combo by themselves, so if your opponent has an Iona in play, whichever color he chooses will not totally cripple the deck.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [MR] Ancient Den
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [SHM] Plains (1)
5 [IN] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
3 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
1 [TSB] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 [MM] Devout Witness
1 [EVE] Deathbringer Liege
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [VI] Anvil of Bogardan
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
2 [P2] Breath of Life
2 [5E] Animate Dead
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
4 [IA] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: White
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Green
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Blue
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Black
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Artifacts


Speed is not a problem, but if desired, the deck could be speeded up by replacing Exhume with Reanimate, and Putrid Imps in place of Oona's Prowler. But I think the mana curve is fine the way it is.


Explanations:

Why Angel of Despair over Terastodon? - I'm experimenting with trying to have at least some creatures that are hard-castable.

Why not Reanimate? It's personal preference. I'm not so impressed with Reanimate and the life loss entailed. Late in the game it's impossible to use. And anyway Dark Rit + Entomb + Exhume will still give you a first turn fat creature.

Why so many discard creatures? This deck doesn't have Careful Study, and in any case, you need small creatures to sac to Recurring Nightmare. They are also great if your opponent used a Diabolic Edict.

Why so many Runes of Protection? - All I need is the right one, and Enlightened Tutor can find it. Circles of Protection can be substituted instead. Note that except for the artifacts rune, any of the rest of these can stop all damage from a Progenitus. It's also a good "old school" card that many opponents don't expect to see.

Weaknesses? Yes, there is one weakness, and it's a big one. This deck can't do anything about counterspells. Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and/or Abeyance are possible remedies, but what to cut? And the deck already packs a lot of protection otherwise.

Any thoughts? comments?

[Jon Stewart]

Instead of playing 5 Rune of Protections in the sideboard, I would just play 1 Story Circle maindeck.

A deck like B/W Reanimator absoultely should maindeck 4 Vindicate.

Vindicate is the best card the white splash has to offer. It permananetly destroys Leylines, Counterbalance, Chalices, Crypts, Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridges, Charbelchers, Chalices, Wheel of Sun and Moons, Runed Halos, and all the other hate that can shut this deck down for good.

Echoing truth's problem always was that all it can do is bounce the hate back to your opponent's hand for one turn. So you have limited window to combo off during before they replay the hate. Vindicate doesn't have this weakness.

Plus, Vindicate can blow up Karakas, Maze of Ith, Kor Haven etc.

What I am saying is, in BW Reanimator, Vindicate is an automatic 4 of, no questions asked.

[John Rohan]

Instead of playing 5 Rune of Protections in the sideboard, I would just play 1 Story Circle maindeck

Story Circle! I can't believe I missed that one. Actually, I'll probably use them both.

[Vacrix]

And now for something different: B/W Reanimator

I put this here for comments, since people in this thread are much more knowledgeable about Reanimator in general. You might also want to look at this if you are considering a white splash to your B/U deck.

This is just a preliminary list, and I'll refine it quite a bit over time. But even in this beta form, this thing is very competitive against tier1 decks. The main reason is Enlightened Tutor. Since he finds artifacts & enchantments, he can pick up any piece of the Reanimator combo you need, whether it's a fat creature (Inkwell, Sphinx), reanimate spell (Animate Dead, Recurring Nightmare), or a way to discard (Anvil). The card can also find the land you need (Ancient Den, Vault of Whispers), or get you threat removal (Seal, Executioners' Capsule, Runed Halo).

Also, this deck is not as vulnerable as B/U in one respect; both Black and White spells can complete the Reanimate combo by themselves, so if your opponent has an Iona in play, whichever color he chooses will not totally cripple the deck.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [MR] Ancient Den
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [SHM] Plains (1)
5 [IN] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
3 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
1 [TSB] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 [MM] Devout Witness
1 [EVE] Deathbringer Liege
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [VI] Anvil of Bogardan
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
2 [P2] Breath of Life
2 [5E] Animate Dead
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
4 [IA] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: White
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Green
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Blue
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Black
SB: 1 [US] Rune of Protection: Artifacts


Speed is not a problem, but if desired, the deck could be speeded up by replacing Exhume with Reanimate, and Putrid Imps in place of Oona's Prowler. But I think the mana curve is fine the way it is.


Explanations:

Why Angel of Despair over Terastodon? - I'm experimenting with trying to have at least some creatures that are hard-castable.

Why not Reanimate? It's personal preference. I'm not so impressed with Reanimate and the life loss entailed. Late in the game it's impossible to use. And anyway Dark Rit + Entomb + Exhume will still give you a first turn fat creature.

Why so many discard creatures? This deck doesn't have Careful Study, and in any case, you need small creatures to sac to Recurring Nightmare. They are also great if your opponent used a Diabolic Edict.

Why so many Runes of Protection? - All I need is the right one, and Enlightened Tutor can find it. Circles of Protection can be substituted instead. Note that except for the artifacts rune, any of the rest of these can stop all damage from a Progenitus. It's also a good "old school" card that many opponents don't expect to see.

Weaknesses? Yes, there is one weakness, and it's a big one. This deck can't do anything about counterspells. Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and/or Abeyance are possible remedies, but what to cut? And the deck already packs a lot of protection otherwise.

Any thoughts? comments?
Thoughts? You lack protection. Completely. You basically dropped Mystical Tutor for Enlightened Tutor and ran a different a completely different reanimation configuration. Animate Dead? You realize it fails against QPM right? Its rarely played these days for that reason. Also, you play way too many creatures. Why? You don't want to be drawing a bunch of creatures. You want to reanimate one dude and win the game. Also, Breath of Life.. White Zombify? WTF? You could just run Reanimate... Seriously, I can't see much justification for this list. You must be trolln.

Also, your opponents 'might not expect' to see Circles of Protection for the same reason they won't expect to see Didgeridoo. They suck. Defensive Reanimator? Really?

[practical joke]

Deathbringer liege: say what?!

how much I like the creative input in adding white instead of blue, you really need to come up with decent info on match-ups.
How do you deal with opposing counters without ANY form of protection.


If you cannot.

I call this a troll

[John Rohan]

To "Vacrix" & "Practical Joke": I don't mind criticism (that's why I put the deck up). Heck, I don't even mind if children or newbies make suggestions (no one has a monopoly on good ideas). But what pisses me off are accusations of "trolling". Do you even know what that word means? Let's have a civil discussion and avoid the name-calling. Don't be so threatened by new ideas. It's only a freaking card game for crying out loud.


Thoughts? You lack protection. Completely.

?? There's a bunch of protection spells, and they are all tutorable. I'm not sure what list you are reading. Maybe I need more, or different ones - this is a "first draft" and will be refined as time goes on. Actually, in playtesting, I often tend to draw too many defensive spells.



Animate Dead? You realize it fails against QPM right? Its rarely played these days for that reason.

Have you ever played against Zoo? QPM is only a problem if it's already on the table. Otherwise don't worry about it. You Animate Iona, set her to "white" and she can't be hit with StP or PtE, nor can the opponent cast a QPM. His only hope in that situation is drawing enough Lightning Bolts to take out Iona. Anyway, Animate Dead is there because it's tutorable. I might cut the number down to one, but it's also good in the mirror match for taking your opponent's creatures.



Also, you play way too many creatures. Why? You don't want to be drawing a bunch of creatures. You want to reanimate one dude and win the game.

Without cards like Careful Study, you need several creatures so you don't have to rely completely on Entomb, and you can outrace your opponent. But I'll experiment with changes here as well.


Also, Breath of Life.. White Zombify? WTF? You could just run Reanimate... Seriously, I can't see much justification for this list. You must be trolln.

Breath of Life is there because then the deck isn't totally negated if someone puts Iona on the table and chooses black. It's also darn near impossible to Counterbalance a 4cc spell, and with Dark Ritual, it can still come out early anyway.

As for "trolln", I'll refer you to this page here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-[Deck]-B-U-Reanimator/page32). After Alara Reborn came out, I suggested Sphinx of the Steel Wind as a great addition for reanimator. Almost everyone told me I was full of crap. Yet today, nearly every deck runs at least one. Don't be so quick to throw out insults.


Also, your opponents 'might not expect' to see Circles of Protection for the same reason they won't expect to see Didgeridoo. They suck. Defensive Reanimator? Really?

Really? Can a Didgeridoo stop a Progenitus in it's tracks? Countertop Progenitus is now a tier 1 threat. Blue and Black have no option even close to a CoP. And anyway, so this deck has gone from "lacking protection completely" to "defensive reanimator"? Which is it? You obviously have some kind of ax to grind, but I think you'd be better taking that elsewhere.

[practical joke]

I should've worded it a bit different.

I'm open to new ideas, B/W reanimater seems like a new option. Yet it lacks everything which makes U/B so incredibly good.
It's slower most of the time, you use a few creatures which are real eyebrow raisers. ( devout witness/deathbringer liege).

Animate dead has a second problem against zoo, it COULD ( not that it often happens) take you a whole turn more than normal due to the -1 power iona gets. This way it's more likely for zoo to outrace you with a few goyfs.

The list looks solid on a few parts, but seriously lacks strength when looking a bit further. The first one is that it CANNOT protect itself from graveyhard hate very well. You have no seizes, pithing needles (which MUST be included if you take this to a competetive tournament), counters.

It's also very fragile against discard, since again it cannot protect itself very well, you can't recover easily, not smoother your draws very well.


Also you don't support your deck in any matter with any results. ( I don't need to see tournament T8's, but a list of match-ups, why some are good/better where u/b reanimate lacks etc.)

What I meant with my last 2 sentences is that you need to be able to support your deck with valid and strong arguments, if you don't, or wouldn't, then I would've called the post a troll. Even if you suggested sphinx of the steel wind. ( that was even before I joined thesource)
It says nothing about any future random posts. ( I make enough of those, but just not in this thread)

The list you put up, and you have to be a bit honest here, looks lacking. I'd gladly help out to make it stronger/viable, but I also need to see some match-up results. Since I can imagine some of those combinations and targets can be strong, some seem to be simply to slow or to fragile to coop with.

[Darkenslight]

For the B/W version, what about Dawn Charm for protection? Conditional hard counter for Edicts for 1W. Also, I'd consider Rebuff the Wicked for another hard Path/Edict/Bounce counter.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, two serious questions for sideboarding in standard BU lists.

A. Why not a singleton copy of Buried Alive against Black as a Mystical target? Buried Alive lets Exhume beat out two problem cards: Faerie Macabre and Extirpate. They get to keep you off your best threat, but you still get a threat through hate.

B. Why not City of Solitude, for those packing any green? City of Solitude does the following:

1. Shuts off opposing countermagic, letting you drop your guy and reanimate him without fear.
2. Shuts off all opposing graveyard hate except for Leyline of the Void (And random things like Planar Void or Ground Seal).
3. Is synergistic as shit with Terastodon, because you can blow up the City when reanimating a Terastodon, thereby re-enabling any Force of Wills you might happen to have in your hand.
4. If nothing else, it shuts off Maze of Ith (and hurts Rishadan Port) against Lands.

(EDIT): Also, when's this getting moved to DTB? I keep looking there for the thread and getting confused.

[practical joke]

Okay, two serious questions for sideboarding in standard BU lists.

A. Why not a singleton copy of Buried Alive against Black as a Mystical target? Buried Alive lets Exhume beat out two problem cards: Faerie Macabre and Extirpate. They get to keep you off your best threat, but you still get a threat through hate.

B. Why not City of Solitude, for those packing any green? City of Solitude does the following:

1. Shuts off opposing countermagic, letting you drop your guy and reanimate him without fear.
2. Shuts off all opposing graveyard hate except for Leyline of the Void (And random things like Planar Void or Ground Seal).
3. Is synergistic as shit with Terastodon, because you can blow up the City when reanimating a Terastodon, thereby re-enabling any Force of Wills you might happen to have in your hand.
4. If nothing else, it shuts off Maze of Ith (and hurts Rishadan Port) against Lands.

(EDIT): Also, when's this getting moved to DTB? I keep looking there for the thread and getting confused.

A. since the mainboard thoughtseize does the trick as well here.
B. I use the amazing xantid swarm as a test-target, and it is delicious. Things with cmc 3 are tend to get countered or destroyed more easily.
1. Xantid swarm does the same, and costs a whole lot less. There aren't a lot of decks that continue to stop this card. ( swords is irrelevant, also less removal for your reanimate target)
2. Xantid swarm also stops all except fearie macabre. ( you don't need swarms, nor city against these matches)
3. I'm still not convinced with terastodon, but it also does the same with xantid swarm, but swarm already let's you enable your own forces.
4. You don't care about lands, since it's an easy match-up.

About the DTB status, it'll gain it someday. they're slow here = p

[4eak]

The one thing I have against City of Solitude is that it is a permanent. Not only is it subject to removal, but it also can't be tutored. That said, City of Solitude has near universal application, and thus it is easier to justify the straight 4x in the board (where I can't for Null Rod) and digging for it.

I will be testing it.

Edit: I'm going to test a single Grim Tutor as well. It may be worth it have the ability to chain Mystical->Grim->City. I think 18-land + Ponder/Brainstorm can support running five 3CC spells.





peace,
4eak

[Jon Stewart]

A deck like B/W Reanimator absoultely should maindeck 4 Vindicate.

Vindicate is the best card the white splash has to offer. It permananetly destroys Leylines, Counterbalance, Chalices, Crypts, Noetic Scales, Ensnaring Bridges, Charbelchers, Chalices, Wheel of Sun and Moons, Runed Halos, and all the other hate that can shut this deck down for good.

Echoing truth's problem always was that all it can do is bounce the hate back to your opponent's hand for one turn. So you have limited window to combo off during before they replay the hate. Vindicate doesn't have this weakness.

Plus, Vindicate can blow up Karakas, Maze of Ith, Kor Haven etc.

What I am saying is, in BW Reanimator, Vindicate is an automatic 4 of, no questions asked.

[4eak]

Do we really need to address why BW is terrible? It is obvious that you can't remove:

Mystical Tutor
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Cantrips 5-8 (Study usually)
(I would argue 3x Daze goes on the list as well.)

I did briefly try out UBw. I still find that green has more to offer. Grip's split second and Claim's efficiency are too valuable, and even the card I'm testing now, City of Solitude has more to offer than white does. The ability to hit land (Maze/Karakas) with Vindicate is pretty pointless when we have shroud targets which are quite effective in these matches and more potent U or B sorceries which attack decks packing these lands.




peace,
4eak

[Jon Stewart]

(EDIT): Also, when's this getting moved to DTB? I keep looking there for the thread and getting confused.

I doubt that this will get moved to DTB until someone writes a good opening post for the deck with modern up to date well tested builds.

[John Rohan]

I should've worded it a bit different.

I'm open to new ideas, B/W reanimater seems like a new option. Yet it lacks everything which makes U/B so incredibly good.
It's slower most of the time, you use a few creatures which are real eyebrow raisers. ( devout witness/deathbringer liege).

Devout Witness lets me discard a card, and it turns any card I'm holding into a Disenchant, so it's protection against Leyline, Relic, etc. But I might move it to the sideboard. Deathbringer Liege has a lot of uses for an alternate kill - it pumps up my creatures and has it's own abilities to kill opposing creatures. It's also very hardcastable. I'm experimenting with it, not sure if I will keep it in there though.




Also you don't support your deck in any matter with any results. ( I don't need to see tournament T8's, but a list of match-ups, why some are good/better where u/b reanimate lacks etc.)


Here's my impressions for self testing so far: Goblins: favorable, Zoo: slightly unfavorable, but winnable, Progenitus: very favorable, Countertop Progenitus: even, Threshold: very difficult, B/U reanimator: even.



The list you put up, and you have to be a bit honest here, looks lacking.

Oh it definitely is lacking - but I'm impressed at how the core engine works so well, for a deck that I slapped together relatively quickly. I'm definitely going to refine this over time.

[John Rohan]

What I am saying is, in BW Reanimator, Vindicate is an automatic 4 of, no questions asked.


I started out with Vindicates, but eventually changed them out. I tried Mortify as well. I've gone back and forth on this. Yes, they are useful. But you can't tutor for them. They are also 3 mana sorceries, in a deck that can't afford to slow down much more.

[fdiv_bug]

I think I would actually prefer Abeyance to City of Solitude, especially in a list with Dark Ritual. Our primary combo isn't exactly mana-intensive -- we can frequently get something tasty online with as little as two mana -- unlike any of the storm combo decks, and having played ANT a bit I absolutely adore Orim's Chant in it. Chant wouldn't work so well for us, since we'd also need to stop abilities, but Abeyance can do that, stopping Crypt, Relic, and Faerie Macabre, in addition to all the spell-based hate like Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, or Coffin Purge. Plus it cantrips.

About the only thing that Abeyance wouldn't help against would be Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the like. Even though those show up far less frequently, they are still considerable threats to our precious graveyard. If we were doing U/B/w, Chain of Vapor or Wipe Away could take care of those at the end of the opponent's turn, since none of them can come back out at instant speed. White does give us access to classics like Disenchant, and either Serenity or Tempest of Light against Enchantress (though I've never much had trouble beating that deck). I don't consider either of those to be in the same class as Krosan Grip or Nature's Claim, though, so it most definitely would be a trade-off.

If someone was gonna go with a white splash instead of green, what lands might they use? 4 Underground Sea, 1 Scrubland, 1 Tundra, along with the standard fare of 2-3 basics and fetches?

[practical joke]

I was just wondering, why isn't any of the green splashed ponder builds running a single maelstrom pulse in sideboard?

It can in fact deal with anything, except karakas.

though, I'm still thinking that it cannot deal with certain cards like echoing truth can ( instant speed and such), but has it been considered at all?
someone think with me, I drowned myself in coffee today so mine ain't working.


@ fdiv_bug: if you run a normal 18-land build, you exchange the trop and bayou for tundra and scrubland with the standard fetches. ( so running marsh flats instead of verdant catacombs)