[Deck] Reanimator

[Jon Stewart]

To abeyance, entomb and exhume the same turn takes 5 mana, this deck plays 16-17 land and it's curve must stop at 3.

Bounce is not and will never be a replacement for complete destruction of a permanent. You may not successfully combo off in that one turn you bought yourself with the bounce spell thanks to opposing countermagic, having the bounced leylines get played again before you get to try again is an enormous tempo hit for you, especially if you had to use up a mystical tutor and wait a turn to get that echoing truth or wipe away that you used to bounce the leyline.

Thoughtseize, duress, FoW, Maelstrom Pulses, Nature's Claim, Krosan Grips are much more resilient solutions especially when they supplement each other and can be tutored up when needed with Mystical Tutor and Intuition at instant speed.

[fdiv_bug]

I don't care what you say but bounce is not and will ever be a replacement for complete destruction of a permanent. You may not combo off in one turn thanks to countermagic, having the bounced leylines get played again is an enarmous tempo hit for you.

Now that is something with which I agree 100%. Once Nature's Claim was printed, my usual Dredge list went -2 Cephalid Coliseum +2 Undiscovered Paradise, and all the Chain of Vapor in the board got replaced with Nature's Claim. If you have the opportunity to destroy, it's almost always better than bouncing.

[Jon Stewart]

I don't neccesarily mean a green splash either, when supplemented with thoughtseize and/or duress, white has a fantastic set of answers to all forms of hate, a personal favorite of mine is Serenity, no it's not fast and no it's not free, but boy does it get the job done and against an enormous variety of decks at that. And vindicate is awesome as well, it is never ever a deck card in any matchup or situation as long as you have a white source of mana.

Yes upping the discard count and maindecking something like vindicate that can be tutored up against almost any situation makes the deck more controllish but I know that it also makes it very resilient which is needed with all the hate the deck is facing.

[John Rohan]

I don't neccesarily mean a green splash either, when supplemented with thoughtseize and/or duress, white has a fantastic set of answers to all forms of hate, a personal favorite of mine is Serenity, no it's not fast and no it's not free, but boy does it get the job done and against an enormous variety of decks at that.

Serenity would also destroy your Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

[Jon Stewart]

You wouldn't play Serenity if you already have a Inkwell Leviation or Sphinx on the board.

You would be playing it before you could ever combo out, to destroy Leylines, Wheel of Sun, Crypts, Moons, Countertops, Stax, Oblivion Rings and cards of that nature. The bonus is that the card is useful against a wide variety of decks in the format,and devastates decks like affinity and Angel/Geddon/Dragon Stompy decks.

[practical joke]

@ jon stewart sometimes you won't have a choice.
For example someone plays runed halo naming inkwell leviathan.
Staxx also doesn't stop dropping artifacts afterwards, some can be a nuisance. ( meekstone for example)
There will be times where you will have to cast serenity with you taking down a creature.

As of now, it is NOT necessary.

[jazzykat]

As this deck becomes more and more popular I think it would be useful if we had a repository of sorts on how to wade through the hate. Besides being faster, can some of the more experienced players list how they would play through:

Crypt, Relic
Ground Seal
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Extirpate
Karakas
Edicts
Macabre
Ravenous Trap
Sadistic Sacrament
Leyline of the Void. Planar Void :0
etc....

Also, if we were to play against removal.dec especially Trisomy 21 (Yes Dorsch I am afraid of that monstrosity) what would you guys bring in to survive such an onslaught especially afterboarding when they bring in 4 extirpate + tons of other hate. Should we just resolve a Sadistic Sacrament and take their 2 win conditions and let them deck out?

[practical joke]

As this deck becomes more and more popular I think it would be useful if we had a repository of sorts on how to wade through the hate. Besides being faster, can some of the more experienced players list how they would play through:

Crypt, Relic
Ground Seal
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Extirpate
Karakas
Edicts
Macabre
Ravenous Trap
Sadistic Sacrament
Leyline of the Void. Planar Void :0
etc....

Also, if we were to play against removal.dec especially Trisomy 21 (Yes Dorsch I am afraid of that monstrosity) what would you guys bring in to survive such an onslaught especially afterboarding when they bring in 4 extirpate + tons of other hate. Should we just resolve a Sadistic Sacrament and take their 2 win conditions and let them deck out?

I'll answer this the way my deck solves it, I think it'll be a bit different for the 18-land ponder builds like 4eak's. so I hope he'll give another reasoning next to mine. If I write 2, I'm certain I get fired/make mistakes while doing this at work ><


Crypt/relic: depends on sideboard, EoT nature's claim/krosan grip/echoing truth/pithing needle/null rod or the exhume/entomb trick, or just let it happen when casting reanimate, then start over again. On a rare occassion you can trick the opponent in outtapping his mana when he has a relic.
Ground seal/wheel of sun and moon/leyline/planar void: nature's claim, krosan grip, echoing truth or simply counter it. Sideboard is there for a reason. My version can also outspeed some of these cards, if not, I rely on my digging skills, tutors and the sideboard spells.
Extirpate: also my version is quicker, the chances are pretty decent that I can go off when my opponent outtaps. ( trick them into it). Exhume/entomb works here as well, or let it happen and rebuild. The fun thing about this card and that works for the ponder builds better, is that you can safely tutor up for a duress or thoughtseize to deal with this card. After that it's easy.
Karakas: Don't get iona: period. You still have acces to inkwell leviathan, it's strong for a reason and not only because it has islandwalk. it's a 7/11 trampling nightmare, even dredge hates it. Some have pithing needles, seems like a card to use here if you want to rely on winning on iona.
Decks with karakas also have slight problems with empyrial archangel. ( do remember, some have woodfall primus/AoD or terastodon in sideboard or mainboard.
Diabolic edicts/warren weirding: If you suspect these next to the stp cards, get iona, shut off a color and rely on your counters if possible. A quick reanimate card and a well-timed thoughtseize do work fine here as well. Don't forget we run about 10-12 protection spells, where they only have a very few outs. Be carefull with your protection cards.
Fearie macabre: about the worst of them all, I can only say try to trick them into it with exhume/entomb, seize it or use the pithing needle. You have no other options. Sometimes you need to get the second best creature to solve this mess and use 4 cards to win the game against his single macabre.
Ravenous trap: really, don't care about it. 3 cards are aren't fixed easily. entomb reanmate, careful study pass turn, reanimate. Next to that I still count 4 daze, 4 force and a few thoughtseizes/duresses and maybe spell pierce. You'll play around it easily. Next to that you still have exhume/entomb.
Sadistic sacrament: A very easy solution: make sure the card is not in your library. entomb in response, have it on hand or counter/discard that spell.

Reanimate does not DIE when we lose a single creature or even a full combo. We can start over against a lot of decks. You only lost your best ( I hope you didn't) or second best creature and then do it again with a new one.

Also trisomy 21 is indeed a monstrosity, but it rarely plays a full set of stp. ( the original lists only played 2 and sometimes 3)
Sideboard extirpates are a horror, but remember they also play with discard that actually helps you discard your creatures.
I would call iona (black) as primary. The few stp's they have will have to be countered, so use mysticals to dig for more forces.
The deck also has no clock and only 2 win-cons. ( happy me for extirpate in SB) remove the insect and the worm harvest and they are done with.

- no living wish, no other kill-conditions. Raven's crim could be helpful even.
- It's not an easy match-up, but it's not as bad as it really is, since they only have a very very few answers. You just have to gamble on that.

[Muppet86]

So i played reanimator yesterday at the GPT for Columbus in Holland. A total of 79 players showed up, enough for the bye's, but not enough for money for a planeticket.

This was the list i was playing:

1 Iona
1 Empyrial
1 Sphinx
1 Inkwell leviathan

4 ritual
4 entomb
4 exhume
4 reanimate
3 ponder
3 daze
4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
4 thoughtseize
4 force of will
1 show and tell
1 careful study
1 echoing truth
3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Delta
4 Catacombs
1 Misty rainforest

SB:
3 needle
2 nature's claim
1 krosan grip
2 extripate
1 show and tell
1 coffin purge
1 perish
1 akroma
1 blazing archon
1 terastadon
1 iona

r1, Rock: I keep a decent hand but i do not draw an entomb or a way to find it. My opponent is manascrewed, so i decide to thoughtseize him. I chose a knight of the reliquary. In my turn, i reanimate it. I have two daze for his spotremoval, and i beat him with his own creature. g2 i go iona on white t2. Hij tries to find some answers, i reanimate a pridemage of his, so he can't use edict. He dies.

1-0

r2 Belcher: T1 he goes 12 tokens, i go put sphinx in graveyard to win the race. I topdeck echoing truth. After that it's sphinx all the way. G2 he tries to go all in on t1, i have force. After that Iona on red is game for me.

2-0

r3 Elfball. Both games just come down to me going Iona on t2:-). He tried to trick me with mirror endity, but i don;t fall for it.

3-0

r4: Countertop+Bloodbraid elf. Game1 he is quick with the beatdown. I have to go to sphinx or i will lose the race. I have a force backup, but still. He does not have plow:-) G2 I reanimate his bloodbraid so that he only has a clique in his graveyard. He has one on the board as well. I play exhume on my iona, so that both his cliques will die. He asked the judge if does was possible, it was:-). I beat him with iona and bloodbraid.

4-0

r5 Zoo: Game 1; zoo is quick, so i am forced to go to sphinx to win the race. I have a fow backup for 1 removal, he does not draw it, so i win. G2 i have to mulligan to 4, and die because I draw crap. G3 was cool. I have a quick iona, but he has a lot of burn and green creatures. I mystical towards perish, and kill his board. His next turn, he drops a new goyf and ape. He already had a lavamancher in play. I reanimate his goyf so that i get his. I am than on 5. I can block his goyf and take 4 form the kird ape and lavamancher. I pray he does not topdeck burn, he does not:-)

5-0

I can draw two times into the top8, with two teammates as well:-)

quarterfinale: Ant
I keep a t2 iona, he keeps a t2 ad nauseum with protection:S Game2; I again keep a t2 iona, i play Iona, and in the meantime extripate his flooded strand and ponder. I see that he has: Mystical, slaughter pact, ritual, ad nauseum, infernal tutor, brainstorm. Pretty sick, he has answers to both colourblocks of Iona. I blue, because this would mean he would lose his ritual and pact and i rather have Iona dead than in my hand. He draws a second ritual and goes off:-S

To bad for the quarter, but still very happy about the deck!!!

If you guy;s want more details, please ask:-)

[stacker]

what are your guys opinions on the 4 creatures + more ponders vs 7 creatures + more studies decklists? im trying to decide between the two


He tried to trick me with mirror endity, but i don;t fall for it.

what trick, did he want you to name white or something?

also, just realized you're a greedy mofo for playing 15 lands

[practical joke]

Your own decision, I still like the more aggressive study list. ( more discard outlets relying more on iona with speed.)
Then again, I can imagine why ppl want to play a little slower but winning on consistency, have acces to a better sideboard for mystical targets.

I was there at GPT columbus in Eindhoven as well,

but my head wasn't clear due to a death in the close family (my only grandma), so I made one flawless game against Counterbalance (NoPro) and after that I failed hard on every aspect of the game. ( bad mulligan choises, countering wrong spells, placing the wrong cards back on the deck with brainstorms and many more)

I dropped at 2-2 ( if you lose against belcher while handing him over the game twice, it's definately time to stop for the day)

about his 15 lands, he does play 4 rituals. (19 mana sources)
Some play 17 lands and no mana enhancers. It's a bit more mulligan heavy, but it can definately blow out of the gates harder than any 19 land build.

[Muppet86]

what are your guys opinions on the 4 creatures + more ponders vs 7 creatures + more studies decklists? im trying to decide between the two



what trick, did he want you to name white or something?

also, just realized you're a greedy mofo for playing 15 lands

The trick was that i would block one of his elves, and that he than would make all the creatures 1-1. So with the damage on my Iona, it would die.

And i am not greedy. Like practical joke already said, the 4 rituals give me more manasources.

[stacker]

Even the lists that do run 4 rituals have never dipped below 16 lands, but congrats on the finish.

[practical joke]

That's because most of those do not run ponder in their list.


<see below for more clarity>

[Muppet86]

Even the lists that do run 4 rituals have never dipped below 16 lands, but congrats on the finish.

You have to look at my deck like you're looking at stormcombo. I play the same amount off lands as the do, and i only need 1 or 2 lands to go off/combo. With dark ritual/ponder/brainstorm/mystical I can build my hand towards it.

I do not need more lands in that way.

[Black Mass]

The trick was that i would block one of his elves, and that he than would make all the creatures 1-1. So with the damage on my Iona, it would die.


I actually don't get this, how would your Iona die? Mirror Entity only makes the creatures of the controller the p/t they want, or am I that mistaken? That would make Iona block a 1/1, nothing to worry about, no?

[Vacrix]

As this deck becomes more and more popular I think it would be useful if we had a repository of sorts on how to wade through the hate. Besides being faster, can some of the more experienced players list how they would play through:

Crypt, Relic
Ground Seal
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Extirpate
Karakas
Edicts
Macabre
Ravenous Trap
Sadistic Sacrament
Leyline of the Void. Planar Void :0
etc....

Also, if we were to play against removal.dec especially Trisomy 21 (Yes Dorsch I am afraid of that monstrosity) what would you guys bring in to survive such an onslaught especially afterboarding when they bring in 4 extirpate + tons of other hate. Should we just resolve a Sadistic Sacrament and take their 2 win conditions and let them deck out?
Crypt/Relic --> Stifle
Macabre --> Stifle

The rest --> Discard or countermagic.

Stifle is great at playing around the conventional hate ie. the 3 cards above. I see less and less Trap these days. Wheel of Sun and Moon and Ground Seal you will run into against Enchantress and a few other decks. Extirpate sees 0 play. Edicts? The only one I can think of is Innocent Blood (nobody plays Diabolic Edict...) unless you have a lot of Pox and Mid-Range in your metagame. Leyline of the Void sees a little play. Planar Void is fucking amazing against so many decks but it doesn't see much play, thank goodness.
Btw most of this grave hate is answered by Chain of Vapor. I've been dabbling back and forth between Stifle and Chain but Chain is probably better.

Also, it might be worth mentioning.. I played Pact SI last weekend at Knightware in LA. My last match was Reanimator. Game 1 he beat me to the kill (he goes off turn 2, played first, I had a turn 2), Game 2 I won (slow played it), Game 3 he sides in Null Rod and I can't go off with Belcher OR use my staying mana sources like Chrome Mox. If he had anything else, I would have won that game.
I'm playing Chain right now but I will certainly switch over to Null Rod once I get my hands on them. They are great against combo and you can board them in against hate as well.

[RexFTW]

Discard with a backup plan of pithing needles deals with most hate. The exception being Leyline of the Void.

Null rod is versatile and stops crypt/relic plans as well as alot of other things like vial, top etc.

[JadeOberg]

What do you think is a better plan when playing against Reanimator. Waiting to counter their reanimate spells, or countering entombs, tutors, studys?

[practical joke]

Most lists don't have careful study. Try to figure out which list they are playing.

The most important thing for reanimate is to get SOMETHING into their graveyard, if they cannot they lose.

entomb, seeing most lists, is by far the best target to counter. If you can stop those they need to draw and discard on of their 4 creatures.

When you against the list I play, it's about even. I play more discard and more creatures than reanimate spells, so it'll be better to stop the reanimate spells against me.

You can about safely ignore the tutors, it's CDA and will probably end up getting an entomb or reanimation spell.

[Chronox]

Crypt/Relic --> Stifle
Null Rod and I can't go off with Belcher OR use my staying mana sources like Chrome Mox.

how can a null rod stop chrome mox? afaik you can't stop mana abilities.

[jazzykat]

how can a null rod stop chrome mox? afaik you can't stop mana abilities.

RTC. It stops any artifact with an ability You pay for including tApping for mana.

[Dark Zero]

how can a null rod stop chrome mox? afaik you can't stop mana abilities.

10/4/2004: Does affect mana abilities of artifacts.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=null+rod&v=card&s=cname

[Chronox]

that's pretty awesome. so, null rod also stops great furnance and other artifact lands for example?

[JonBarber]

that's pretty awesome. so, null rod also stops great furnance and other artifact lands for example?

Yes.

[fdiv_bug]

that's pretty awesome. so, null rod also stops great furnance and other artifact lands for example?

Null Rod ruins Affinity. I know this from experience, on the giving end of said rod. :smile:

[RexFTW]

yeah null rod is spanky sideboard tech.

[RexFTW]

The original primer is over 2 years old... is there anyway someone else can take over the thread?

[practical joke]

You should check around page 50 or so, for the 2009 rebuilded lists with their first good results and a few pages back for the ones with the latest builds that got tournament results.

[Vacrix]

The original primer is over 2 years old... is there anyway someone else can take over the thread?
Just PM Rod. He still plays the deck, the updated version as far as I know. I'm sure he's willing to update the primer.

[RexFTW]

This may sound dumb but what does everyone think of buried alive as a "work around" for faerie macabre? seems like dumping 3 guys in then playing exhume is not a terrible option.

EDIT: although getting whacked with a crypt after this seems pretty bad.

[menace13]

This may sound dumb but what does everyone think of buried alive as a "work around" for faerie macabre? seems like dumping 3 guys in then playing exhume is not a terrible option.

EDIT: although getting whacked with a crypt after this seems pretty bad.

It is more efficient to either use Needle,Thoughtseize,Stifle or maybe Study-->Exhume,Macabre resolves-->Entomb+Exhume on stack. All would cost less than 5 mana.

[RexFTW]

It is more efficient to either use Needle,Thoughtseize,Stifle or maybe Study-->Exhume,Macabre resolves-->Entomb+Exhume on stack. All would cost less than 5 mana.

The thing is, I think burried alive is much better if they dont have the faerie in their hand... as it actually does something. If you bring in a ton of farie hate and cant draw gas its a problem.

When your hand is needle needle exhume force daze lands you would be wishing one of those needles were a burried alive.

[menace13]

The thing is, I think burried alive is much better if they dont have the faerie in their hand... as it actually does something. If you bring in a ton of farie hate and cant draw gas its a problem.

When your hand is needle needle exhume force daze lands you would be wishing one of those needles were a burried alive.

Yes, Buried Alive does something if they have no macabre in hand, but then so do the rest of the cards i mentioned and the hand you described is called a mulligan.

[RexFTW]

"Did you know, when you mulligain you draw 1 less card???"

Saw this somewhere. I think it was LSV.

[Sims]

"Did you know, when you mulligain you draw 1 less card???"

Saw this somewhere. I think it was LSV.

That's a pretty stupid reason to keep a bad hand.

Also, Buried Alive is bad. Show and Tell gets played cause it plays a fatty straight from your hand, Buried Alive doesn't because it's slow, opens you up further to graveyard hate (i'd rather not lose 2 of my 3 fatties to a faerie, god forbid they have double faerie and i'm scrambling with 1-3 critters left in my library), and turns on ravenous traps from people still packing them from ichorid hoping to catch you off guard. All in all it's just a bad version of a card you're already running.

In it's place in the board pithing needle is a faster, more flexible answer to not only macabre but crypt, relic, wasteland, knight of the reliquary activations getting wastelands or karakas to fuck you up, karakas, maze of ith, mangara or whatever his name is from DnT, etc.

Seems like the better choice, by far.

[Horror Business]

Anyone know what changes(if any) Gerry T made to the deck in his recent article?

[menace13]

Sorry for the formating. i copy&pasted this. Gerry T's Reanimator.
Artifact Creatures
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx Of The Steel Wind
Creatures
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Coffin Purge
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force Of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
Legendary Creatures
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
Legendary Lands
1 Minamo, School At Water's Edge
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Bloodghast
1 Realm Razer
1 Coffin Purge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Show And Tell
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dryad Arbor

[say no to scurvy]

replacing deep anal with coffin purge? is this the new brasstop maindeck grip, in that our deck is so good for the meta that we should try to tune for the mirror?

[menace13]

It still remains a flex slot, but yes, his theory was that during the later rounds at the top tables there would be Animator mirrors.

[RexFTW]

coffin purge is also awesome against loam squee and iggy decks :)

[practical joke]

still that minamo is too random.


I can deal with his mainboard purge since it has a lot of uses in different match-ups, yet I'm not convinced about maindecking it.
I should see some of the matches being played out, or having figured out when I would use it maindeck. ( might get the chance for that tomorrow, depending on the deck i decide to play)

[Giles]

I have been playing this deck for a while. It really fits my play style.

One of the things that I have been thinking about is to put more 6 or so casting cost creatures in to fill utility spots, and have a shot at casting them (kinda like Realm Razor, but in black and blue (maybe white)).

Does anyone know of these random good cards?

[RexFTW]

I should see some of the matches being played out, or having figured out when I would use it maindeck. ( might get the chance for that tomorrow, depending on the deck i decide to play)

So you dont like his list but you have never played the deck??? Thanks for the feedback.

Its dead against ANT, fish and Goblins. In some it shrinks goyfs (suprise!) or stops other shenanigans like squee. Best case it gets life from the loam or reanimator cards. Obviously you would only mystical for it in the last cast.


Does anyone know of these random good cards?
Try Tombstalker.

PS I have played over 30 test game against all the DTB.

[RexFTW]

LSV Just made top 8 at SCG with this deck.

[JonBarber]

LSV Just made top 8 at SCG with this deck.

And he loses...

[RexFTW]

And he loses...

clearly 4-8th in a field of 250 is a poor showing!


Sun Titan 4ww
Creature - Giant Mythic Rare
Vigilance
Whenever Sun Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may return target permanent card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
6/6

This seems like it has a remote chance of being good. Can anyone think of a way to use this?

A little list of things that may be worth recurring using Sun Titan:
dryad arbor
tormod's crypt
fleshbag marauder
nether spirit
lands (hardcast force anyone?)

[practical joke]

So you dont like his list but you have never played the deck??? Thanks for the feedback.

Its dead against ANT, fish and Goblins. In some it shrinks goyfs (suprise!) or stops other shenanigans like squee. Best case it gets life from the loam or reanimator cards. Obviously you would only mystical for it in the last cast.


Try Tombstalker.

PS I have played over 30 test game against all the DTB.


Pay attention, I was one of the first who rebuilded the deck when entomb got unbanned.
Winning a 139man tournament without a single loss that day within the first month of unbannings. ( I wasn't a member of thesource then since I picked up magic again and legacy for the first time, I became a member of thesource when someone asked me on another site to add my opinion to this site's discussion, so I did.)

so I know what I'm talking about. Shrinking goyfs is just as good as bouncing them, since you never get outraced by a single goyf. coffin purge is irrelevant here ( 2 goyfs is still deadly, since you are dropping your graveyard full of randomness anyways the 2 damage a turn is again irrelevant when you can also save the full damage a full turn).

What I meant about the matches they play, is how often they get a relevant action out of minamo and how often it's a danger to themselves.

I.e. LSV's matches online were terrible to watch, after his match vs TT I couldn't bear watching any other vid.


You don't win tournaments by testing DTB's, you have to test possibilities that can happen during a match. If you play against slightly different variant of TT, you might even get in trouble because you haven't tested a change.
What happens if you play against landstill and they play mainboard edict effects, or TT with a black splash instead of red.
what about 43. lands with valakut kill.

Coffin purge has the strength of being in a deck with 8 tutors for it. ( 4 mystical, 4 entomb)
Still it's dead against a lot of decks, and you should know that reanimate wins the majority of maindeck matches already.

[practical joke]

It sucks, you don't win games with the new card.
Does reanimate play something besides fetch that has a use for sun titan?

probably not, so you don't bother with it.
I highly doubt that any other legacy deck will do something with it.

[Knoll]

could anyone explain me why Vargas is playing a bloodghast in the SB?

[practical joke]

Bloodghast can do a few things very good.

- protect fatties against an edict effect
- conistency of a creature on board
- entombable creature to have something on the board.


I doubt that it has any significant effect on the reanimator's gameplan,
curious about his reasons, I think it's there as a test-card just like he tested null rod as a 1-off before

[Knoll]

well yea... those are the conclusion i found too but still he have dryad arbor in case of edict effects and tbh bloodghast do not afford that much consistency to the board since it can't even block :(
maybe it can be useful vs prison decks when they drop a smokestack but still... dunno :S

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Bloodghast is clearly a very good card in combo-mirrors. Postboard, both decks are very disruptive and the games go long. Disruption is the name of the game there, not being fast. Having a hand of Entomb + massive disruption suddenly gets very very good if you can start swinging with a bear on turn 3 while both of you sit around trying to set up for the real kill. Instead of searching for enough disruption to stop the opponent and for business, you can suddenly concentrate completely on stopping the opponent.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

I am pretty sure that Gerry T said he wanted it in the mirror, after he top 2'd that SCG Open. Since the mirror is a staring contest for the most part, EOT entombing BG seems real good, since you don't need to waste additional cards to make it good, and your opponent has to waste (1-2 cards on it). So at worst a 1 for 1, but possibly a 2 for 1 or a source of damage that you didn't have to waste a reanimate spell on.

[practical joke]

seems like an acceptable reason,
if you say it like that, Í'm already imagining every piece of option where it would be just that little extra push you need.
I'm not sure if I'd play the card though.

[Knoll]

indeed, will test it in the following days to check it out! thanks everybody for the fast replies :)

[menace13]

Ghast is also good in situations like; early game and i can not go for Dryad due to Wasteland or i need UU/UB/BB and Dryad will take my 2nd land drop. Also playing 10 fetches is a good way to ensure Landfall is live.

[RexFTW]

nether spirit has many of the same benefits of bloodghast with the added benefit of being able to block and help you win the race. The only drawback being a little weaker against coffing purge.

[menace13]

nether spirit has many of the same benefits of bloodghast with the added benefit of being able to block and help you win the race. The only drawback being a little weaker against coffing purge.

And can not be put into play on the opponents turn thru Entomb--> pop fetch in response to edict effects(main reason) while also being 3cc and once you have any dude in the yard the buck stops there, but yes spirit is better for blocking only.

[RexFTW]

well there is always fetch for dryad arbor on opponents turn, which i assume you boarded in also against edicts.... you are probably also trying to get terastadon in the mirror which is immune to edict himself.

[practical joke]

yes, but you cannot always garantee a fetch to green mana

[RexFTW]

so your argument is that bloodghast is better when you have 1 of 2 polluted deltas and not one of the 8 green fetches?

[menace13]

so your argument is that bloodghast is better when you have 1 of 2 polluted deltas and not one of the 8 green fetches?

The use of Arbor is easier to play due to the 8 fetches, while Ghast needs a 2nd Entomb or Study if in hand. What Ghast does allow is; not exposing you mana to Wasteland by fetching a land that will not produce the turn you fetch and making daze worse, Not having to sac a land drop early, a better attacker and recurrs to be sac'd with each land that hits the table.

[RexFTW]

LSV's list that T8 at SCG 5k

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33309

Maindeck:

Artifact Creatures
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx Of The Steel Wind

Creatures
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon

Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Coffin Purge
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Entomb
4 Force Of Will
4 Mystical Tutor

Legendary Creatures
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Bloodghast
1 Realm Razer
1 Animate Dead
1 Coffin Purge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Wipe Away
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Show And Tell
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dryad Arbor

[Muradin]

What's the Coffin Purge for? Preventing your opponent from getting something back with Exhume and being randomly useful?
Is Dryad Arbors purpose serving as an fetchable out against edict effects postboard?

When is Bloodghast needed? Looks like danger of cool things to me. Could think about bringing one in against combo and taking the control role in this matchup while beating down with a bloodghast and a Dryad Arbor.

[Tempus]

Coffin Purge is randomly useful in the mirror, against loam decks, might screw a Iggy loop and of course helps against Dredge.

The use of Dryad Arbor and Bloodghast is discussed right on this page...

[Arrg]

Why does it seem like most Reanimator decks play 2 Iona?

[menace13]

Iona is the 1st target in majority of matches and having more of a chance to be able to dump her off Study.

[practical joke]

Why does it seem like most Reanimator decks play 2 Iona?

I even play 3 iona, but that doesn't say she's my number one target.

If I would play with ponder instead of petals and take more time to set-up the ideal target.
iona wouldn't be choses that often.

If you look at which targets is best first turn, iona for sure.

[Pippin]

Why does it seem like most Reanimator decks play 2 Iona?

Obvious reason of easier drawing into Iona and dumping her through study has already been mentioned, but having 2 Iona's is also great when you're fighting hate with exhume and entomb (dump first iona, play exhume, opponent activates crypt/relic/something - afterwards you cast entomb fetching your 2nd iona while exhume is still on stack)

[Knoll]

Currently i'm playing the following list, very similar to LSV's one, just minor changes to the sb due to italian meta... full of zoo/bant where perish shines...

MAIN:
2 iona
1 sphinx
1 leviathan
1 archon
1 terastodon

4 mystical
4 brain
4 careful
4 entomb

4 exhume
4 reanimate

4 force
4 daze
3 thougtseize

1 echoing truth
1 show & tell

2 delta
4 misty
4 verdant
4 underground
2 swamp
1 island


SB:

1 wipe away -> CB decks
1 thoughtseize -> CB decks / ANT / mirror / random combo decks
1 hurkylls recall -> random artifact / stax /prison deck
1 mindbreak trap -> ANT
1 sadistic sacrament -> ANT / mirror / dredge
1 coffin purge -> mirror / loam / dredge / Survival
1 ravenous trap -> dredge / loam / stax / survival
1 perish -> Zoo / Bant / Eva / Rock
1 diabolic edict -> Mirror / Zoo / Bant / Eva / Rock
1 bloodghast -> Mirror / Eva / prison decks (it's cool to have a bloodghast in the yard when the oppenent casts smokestack :p )
1 dryad arbor -> Mirror / Eva
4 pithing needle -> vs Everything that can hurt our GY

Managed to win a small tourney the last week and generally steamrolling more or less everything around during tests since the italian meta isn't really prepared to fight reanimator due to the fact that nearly noone plays this deck here :p


Tho alot of times i feel like i'm sideboarding wrong...

The point is that in every g2 i found myself trying to find space to fit the 4 needles + those 2/3 specific cards that i need in that particular matchup...

My SB plan Vs the most of decks is :

-1 creature : the most useless in that specific matchup (for example vs ANT & landstill we can easily punt out the Archon...)
-2 careful study : postboard i feel like it's too risky to start with careful dumping a creature in the yard, also since we are removing a creature we have less chances to have it in hand ready to get discarded.
-1 exhume : in g2 we have to pay a bit more attention to our gy so by the time we secure our graveyard we will get one of the reanimation effect in hand even if we play 6/7 of them instead of 8...
-1 reanimate : read exhume...
-1 ???? : here i really don't know what to cut :/


Of course there are exceptions like ZOO, where we would side out the thoughtsizes instead of the studies since we prefer speed and we don't want to loose much life...

Am i doing it wrong or not :(?

Thanks in advance.

[Vodka_7up]

My SB plan Vs the most of decks is :

-1 creature : the most useless in that specific matchup (for example vs ANT & landstill we can easily punt out the Archon...)
-2 careful study : postboard i feel like it's too risky to start with careful dumping a creature in the yard, also since we are removing a creature we have less chances to have it in hand ready to get discarded.
-1 exhume : in g2 we have to pay a bit more attention to our gy so by the time we secure our graveyard we will get one of the reanimation effect in hand even if we play 6/7 of them instead of 8...
-1 reanimate : read exhume...
-1 ???? : here i really don't know what to cut :/

Of course there are exceptions like ZOO, where we would side out the thoughtsizes instead of the studies since we prefer speed and we don't want to loose much life...

Am i doing it wrong or not :(?

Thanks in advance.

I'm having similar problems with sideboard games. One card I've been cutting is Daze since all of my sb games go longer the maindeck games, so they'll have more lands to pay for with daze. It might be a play/draw card but I doubt it. I've done most of my testing vs Dreadstill and New Horizon, both of which have been taking me down during SB games. Also I found that Pithing Needle was rather lack luster. I agree with cutting the reanimation spells since g2-3 take way longer.

[4eak]

It appears a 'welcome to the DTBForum' is in order. I assume it won't appear as crazy to people that I've been packing 6x GY-hate cards in the sideboards of several decks I play.



peace,
4eak

[Lord_Cyrus]

Finally, this was long overdue. Now move in the other recent top finishers, New Horizons and 43 Lands, and we have a sensible DTB list again. Three cheers for forum maintainance!

[menace13]

Finally, this was long overdue. Now move in the other recent top finishers, New Horizons and 43 Lands, and we have a sensible DTB list again. Three cheers for forum maintainance!

Shouldn't Canadian ***** be out of DTB section due to decline?

[say no to scurvy]

Canadian still is a consistent t8 contender, with recent results to back it up.

New Horizons is a new deck, like reanimator was after the unbanning. Give it time.

Lands imo will never be a DTB, for various reasons.

[menace13]

Canadian still is a consistent t8 contender, with recent results to back it up.

New Horizons is a new deck, like reanimator was after the unbanning. Give it time.

Lands imo will never be a DTB, for various reasons.

I am all for saying no to scurvy. But i am going to have to say no to you. Just doing a quick count on deckcheck(cos im lazy,but right) results in 17 ***** lists since March, in contrast Animator is at 40.... Now take into account all the reports from sites in the world including this one and the SCG 5ks(deckcheck does not get every result evar!), I would bet that this gap is not made any closer. In fact i think it would increase..

Edit: personaly i don't care where you hold this thread, animator is a deck to plan against.

[say no to scurvy]

I don't know why you come off so emotionally invested. I never said anything about Reanimator.

The Canadian thread is no longer in the DTB section: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-[DTB]-Tempo-Thresh

[Vodka_7up]

It appears a 'welcome to the DTBForum' is in order. I assume it won't appear as crazy to people that I've been packing 6x GY-hate cards in the sideboards of several decks I play.

peace,
4eak

Thanks for the greeting. Regarding the six GY hate, makes total sence, the first deck I made for legacy was Psychatog about three weeks ago (I'm a new player to the format, read about it for ages) with three main deck bojuka bogs! Let me tell you, Bog + Tog > Goyf.

I'm not happy with pithing needle for a lot of reasons and was wondering how stifle would do against bog, crypt, relic, etc etc etc. Strictly compared to pithing needle of course.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Thanks for the greeting. Regarding the six GY hate, makes total sence, the first deck I made for legacy was Psychatog about three weeks ago (I'm a new player to the format, read about it for ages) with three main deck bojuka bogs! Let me tell you, Bog + Tog > Goyf.

I'm not happy with pithing needle for a lot of reasons and was wondering how stifle would do against bog, crypt, relic, etc etc etc. Strictly compared to pithing needle of course.

Welcome to the Source and to Legacy, but, how does any of that apply to U/B Reanimator? I guess Bojuka Bog is ok but... doesn't sound like you have any consistent way to find it. Tog decks haven't performed well in a long, long time. Ah, the old days...

[jazzykat]

Oh, great. Didn't everyone hear that at the last 2 SCG opens there was only 1 reanimator top 8 and that was played by a PRO. This deck is sooo dead, you'll never see it again. Now would everyone remove your damn faierie macabres from boards so I can have easier game 2s?

Seriously, this was about time. Wether it dominates like it did or not this deck is brutally powerfu and as long as everyone has to prepare for the GY even more and then more openings are presented for other decks.

[JonBarber]

Oh, great. Didn't everyone hear that at the last 2 SCG opens there was only 1 reanimator top 8 and that was played by a PRO. This deck is sooo dead, you'll never see it again. Now would everyone remove your damn faierie macabres from boards so I can have easier game 2s?

Seriously, this was about time. Wether it dominates like it did or not this deck is brutally powerfu and as long as everyone has to prepare for the GY even more and then more openings are presented for other decks.

Like combo =)

[menace13]

Ponder looks like the only replacement, at least i can think of. Meh..i mean who wants to play Animator and ANT anyway? Not like they were 2 of the best decks in the format or anything.

[raptorcardz]

I am terribly pissed off at wizards banning mystical tutor. This is ridiculous. The card is good obviously but it is CARD DISADVANTAGE. I want to read why they decided to ban it.

[Lord_Cyrus]

WOW reanimator just got HOSED. I agree with others, ANT might survive in some lesser form, but you guys just lost your Engine. Welcome to playing a "fair" deck.

I really don't understand the DCI though. I wish they would quit messing with Eternal and let us enjoy our game the way we like it - with the best decks reasonably possible.

[Hanni]

Lim-Dul's Vault?

[menace13]

That might not be a bad idea, although the deck would have to rely less on reanimate and Thoughtseizes to an extent.

[lordofthepit]

Why not just max out the cantrip count with 4 Ponders and 4 Careful Studies in addition to the Brainstorms?

One problem is the Show and Tell sideboard plan is no longer as attractive, and good luck searching for maindeck bounce.

[comeback]

Why not a sort of Saito's Ant with more seize, 2 mana colorless, more s&t and some cunning wish?

Mmmh no way to put in place at least in a European aggro meta!

:(

[TestMonkey]

I am terribly pissed off at wizards banning mystical tutor. This is ridiculous. The card is good obviously but it is CARD DISADVANTAGE. I want to read why they decided to ban it.

Because while it is card disadvantage it is guaranteed to deliver an underpriced bullet in any decent decklist. One of the reasons that this deck was so resilient to hate is because of how diverse the cards are because of tutor. Turn 0 Leyline of the Void should shut town a reanimator deck. Fortunately you had MT and 1 copy of show and tell maindeck to let that dedicated piece of hate be in vain.

If you all look at the original post of this thread you can see that it is possible for reanimator to survive without Mystical Tutor. Hell the original poster won 4 foil Tarmogoyfs with the OP decklist.

[menace13]

Because while it is card disadvantage it is guaranteed to deliver an underpriced bullet in any decent decklist. One of the reasons that this deck was so resilient to hate is because of how diverse the cards are because of tutor. Turn 0 Leyline of the Void should shut town a reanimator deck. Fortunately you had MT and 1 copy of show and tell maindeck to let that dedicated piece of hate be in vain.

If you all look at the original post of this thread you can see that it is possible for reanimator to survive without Mystical Tutor. Hell the original poster won 4 foil Tarmogoyfs with the OP decklist.

What...Wait.. Why would you even?? What year was that dude???? Just stop now.

[jrsthethird]

Personal Tutor finds everything you need, except for Entomb. You can adjust your SB bounce suite to include Sorcery-speed bounce (can't think of any off the top of my head but I'm sure some exist).

[Shabbaman]

I think I'll go with Lim-dul's Vault. I'm so sad with this banning, as it reminds me of the time Benzo got killed when they banned Vampiric tutor. So now I have a worthless playset of Mysticals to complement my set of Vampirics in my binder :'(

EDIT:


Personal Tutor finds everything you need, except for Entomb. You can adjust your SB bounce suite to include Sorcery-speed bounce (can't think of any off the top of my head but I'm sure some exist).

Sorcery speed bounce is crap, but it's there: Eye to Nowhere. And I picked up four personal tutors, thanks for the tip.

[JonBarber]

Personal Tutor finds everything you need, except for Entomb. You can adjust your SB bounce suite to include Sorcery-speed bounce (can't think of any off the top of my head but I'm sure some exist).

No, its dead...

[menace13]

:cry:

[jrsthethird]

What...Wait.. Why would you even?? What year was that dude???? Just stop now.

Wow I just looked at that list for the first time...wtf? hahaha

[Vodka_7up]

Hi all, Im going to a legacy tournament this weekend and this is what I'm thinking of taking at the moment . . .

//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Magic Workstation\Legacy - ReAlexNator.mwDeck
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Show and Tell


// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Realm Razer
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Bloodghast
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 1 Duress

The biggest change with my list is the Wastelands in the main, which is my current attempt to shore up the SB games against New Horizon (they're bloodly horrible, i managed to improve it to 3 wins 7 loses). They should also make the Dazes better. The mana seems stable like this (though not ridiculously rock solid like it used to be). The singleton show and tell is pre emptive boarding against New Horizon.

As for the sideboard . . .
I've swapped out Pithing Needle for Stifle because A)sometimes you dont know what to needle B)ppl run a split between crypt and relic C)its a blue card I can pitch to FOW D) its tutorable (not for long though :frown:) E)it compliments the wasteland package. I cut Sadistic Sacrament and Dryad Arbor (which is slick) cause of the Wastelands, I cut Animate Dead cause I think it's pretty useless. I put in the extra Inkwell cause I'd like to keep my fattie count up (or raise it) for my Show and Tells and Careful Studies.

My plan against New Horizon is . . .
-1 Terrastadon, -4 Daze, -3 Exhume
+1 Inkwell, +4 Stile, +2 Show and Tell +1 Duress

I think I've kept the core of the deck intact while mostly messing around with the reactive strategies it had (like 8 green fetches + arbor). Thoughts and criticism much appreciated!

[menace13]

Hi all, Im going to a legacy tournament this weekend and this is what I'm thinking of taking at the moment . . .

//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Magic Workstation\Legacy - ReAlexNator.mwDeck
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Show and Tell


// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Realm Razer
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Bloodghast
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 1 Duress

The biggest change with my list is the Wastelands in the main, which is my current attempt to shore up the SB games against New Horizon (they're bloodly horrible, i managed to improve it to 3 wins 7 loses). They should also make the Dazes better. The mana seems stable like this (though not ridiculously rock solid like it used to be). The singleton show and tell is pre emptive boarding against New Horizon.

I think I've kept the core of the deck intact while mostly messing around with the reactive strategies it had (like 8 green fetches + arbor). Thoughts and criticism much appreciated!

The biggest change with your list would be THE LACK OF MYSTICAL TUTOR?

[Master Shake]

Remember that time The Legacy Adepts officially made Reanimator a Deck to Beat and then it had a crucial card banned? What a bad day for Reanimator.

Personal Tutor clearly can't work because it doesn't get Entomb - what else would you really Mystical for? I'm pretty sure that Lim-Dul's Vault just doesn't cut it for most situations either.

It's possible to just play the deck with a heavier black commitment, Dark Rituals, Buried Alive, perhaps taking another look at Tombstalker. I wouldn't say the deck is dead but it certainly has had its power level cut into and can be removed from the DTB section as of July 1st, probably never to return unless Mystical or something functionally the same exists. But Reanimator is still powerful enough for local metagames and will occasionally turn up on Deck Check, because it still has an amazingly powerful suite of creatures to play with and people will go back to being under-prepared for it.


The biggest change with your list would be THE LACK OF MYSTICAL TUTOR?

Way to read. He's taking it to a tournament before the banning. I wish I could ignore your posts more effectively, but they are everywhere and generally just a sentence or apparently a facial expression


:cry:

You seem to be active enough to really make contributions, it would be great if you did rather than increase your post count.

//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Magic Workstation\Legacy - ReAlexNator.mwDeck
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Show and Tell


// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Realm Razer
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Bloodghast
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 1 Duress[/quote]

I think you're overly concerned with New Horizons, Inkwell is really good against them. I would promote the board Inkwell to the maindeck and move the Elephant to the board. Realm Razer... you're probably already talked into.

The Wastelands are going to ruin you. This deck plays 17 lands and every one of them needs to go into playing a spell on turn one. You win a lot of games with one-land hands and what you have done is turn hands that would generally win into hands that are mulligans. You should probably just be playing 3x Perish in your board. And when you go to board against them you take out the weak links (although probably not Daze) for Perish and cards that are more effective tan Stifle. Stifle and Wasteland are cards for a tempo deck, this is a combo deck.

I would go

-4 Stifle
-1 Mindbreak Trap
-1 Inkwell Levithian
+3 Perish
+1 Terrastadon
+2 Pithing Needle

Stifle really doesn't do what you're going to want it to do, well, maybe what you want it to do, but not what you need it to do.

Bloodghast is really only good in... well, it really isn't all that good. I know LSV did it but I struggle to see where you really want that effect.

Good luck in your tournament.

[Philipp2293]

Mystical Tutor isn't yet banned THIS WEEKEND!

[Muppet86]

well...that ban just kills combo....bye bye reanimator i quess. I do not see another card taking the place of mystical. It's one of the best cards in the deck, and taking that away means no more reanimator. Think it kills NLS and ANT as well, no more combo:-S

[Vodka_7up]

Seconded!

[JonBarber]

Mystical Tutor isn't yet banned THIS WEEKEND!

Haha, I'm playing in 4 more events before july 1st. I guarantee you in everyone one of them I'll be playing mystical tutor.

[practical joke]

we'll be fine,

I'll just have to update my own list with some more aggressive cards.

I lose mainboard bounce,3 mysticals:

lim-duls is a good alternative for the ponderlists to replace mystical. which could also allow us to run a 4-off show and tell again in SB instead of the 1-off mystical targets we had.
it's only a turn slower, but still does the same or even more than mystical did.

I probably run a few more creatures or go back to the drawing board and make myself a new list with putrid imps mainboard and getting the creature count up to 8 or 9 again.

[pippo84]

Merchant Scroll? I slows the deck but maybe it's viable..
Or Lim-du vault as already suggested..
In the lists that don't run Ponder I would probably add it now instead of the Mystical Tutor (wtf).

[paeng4983]

yeah! you reanimator guys out there still have until june 30 to enjoy MT with it.
does anyone here have any replacement card for MT?

how about personal tutor?

[Jon Stewart]

Wow, I had no idea this thread got moved to DTB. I couldn't find it. It feels like the OP should get an overhaul now that it's a DTB.

As for the bannings...



I think Intuition is the best option for B/U Reanimator decks. The deck needs a tutor of some sort, cantrips are just simply too random to get you the answer you need when you need it. And Personal Tutor by being unable to grab Entomb is too narrow. Intuition makes for a slower more controllish version of the deck. But it's also extremely flexible as far as cards go and generates card parity/card advantage. So I think the deck wouldn't be hurt very badly at all.

Intuition costs three mana, doesn't create any card disadvantage, and either dumps both an Iona and a Inkwell Leviathan into the yard and puts another Iona in your hand, or dumps 2 Iona's into your yard and puts an Inkwell Leviathan into your yard that you can pitch to FoW.

But more importantly, Intuition can grab you a FoW or Daze or Stifle at instant speed and put it directly into your hand, in response to a Noetic Scales for example.


And anyone that thinks Intuition is too slow or doesn't fit hasn't tried the card imo. It works really well in the deck despite the cc.

[Muradin]

I think that neither ANT nor Reanimator will die due to the banning of Mystical Tutor. As for Reanimator I think that Ponder is the best replacement for MYstical Tutor combined with some more reanimation spells.

[Jon Stewart]

Reanimation spells isn't what Reanimator is short on. It's ways to tutor creatures into your yard. Right now it only has Entomb, and without Mystical Tutor to tutor it up, it's not enough.

There's two route the deck can go...

A super aggro route that plays more creatures, 4 careful study, along with more Reanimate effects to make up for being unable to tutor them up with Mystical Tutor and maybe even something like Putrid Imp would be neccesary to ensure you have enough ways to get creatures into the yard.

This of course would force the deck to cut cards like Thoughtseize to make room, and I think will ultimately prove too one minded and be suboptimal.

The other route to go is to make the deck slower but more controllish and more resilient, more akin to Bant for example.

Intuition by not creating card disadvantage and by being able to grab Daze or FoW or Thoughtseize at instant speed in response to a key spell pushes the deck toward a more controllish route.

This means playing 3 Thoughtseize, Intuition, a few Tombstalker and possibly even cutting a single Reanimate to play 3 Animate Dead or something of that sort.

[Vodka_7up]

I think you're overly concerned with New Horizons, Inkwell is really good against them. I would promote the board Inkwell to the maindeck and move the Elephant to the board. Realm Razer... you're probably already talked into.

The Wastelands are going to ruin you. This deck plays 17 lands and every one of them needs to go into playing a spell on turn one. You win a lot of games with one-land hands and what you have done is turn hands that would generally win into hands that are mulligans. You should probably just be playing 3x Perish in your board. And when you go to board against them you take out the weak links (although probably not Daze) for Perish and cards that are more effective tan Stifle. Stifle and Wasteland are cards for a tempo deck, this is a combo deck.

I would go

-4 Stifle
-1 Mindbreak Trap
-1 Inkwell Levithian
+3 Perish
+1 Terrastadon
+2 Pithing Needle
Stifle really doesn't do what you're going to want it to do, well, maybe what you want it to do, but not what you need it to do.
Bloodghast is really only good in... well, it really isn't all that good. I know LSV did it but I struggle to see where you really want that effect.
Good luck in your tournament.

Hmmm I agree with your point on Wasteland, perhaps I'm being a little to overconcerned about New Horizon (this isnt exactly standard where ppl always play the new flavor of the week). I'll go back to +2 Swamp and +2 Island instead (before that I switched it to a more basic heavy version which was working fine against comboy decks). What are your thoughts on Realm Razer (I haven't been talked into it, I assumed it was Lands)?

I tried 2x Perish against New Horizon and wasn't thrilled . . . k resolving/finding it was awesome, having to spend a mystical tutor on it was not so. Moving up to three might be the right call though.

As for Daze in the New Horizon match up . . . it is not good in SB games, things go way to long (cause of crypts or trying to assemble the combo through counters) and Daze just stop shinning. You kinda see if by playing those matches out (not fun!).

Would you mind telling me your thoughts on Stifle? I listed all of the reaons on why I thought it was better then Pithing Needle, I'm interested in hear your opinion (expanded beyond "it doesn't do what you need it to). Thanks for the input.

[XiaN]

It feels like the OP should get an overhaul now that it's a DTB.

I'm working on a new primer. I just have been very busy in rl the last month.

[morgan_coke]

Has anyone looked at taking the deck in a direction more like old Psychatog? i.e. a control deck with a combo/creature finish? A bunch of cantrips, some draw&discard spells for draw/advantage, then a bunch of control cards and finish with the reanimation package? Basically taking the deck slower and in more of a control/combo hybrid position? Or am I just crazy for thinking that?

[oldbsturgeon]

I'm not particularily happy about this either as I was going to be playing this in Columbus.
What if you though replace the mystical with hapless researcher. Sure it doesnt get those random things that the mystical could but it does give you another nice option for discard and it is blue for force of will.
If anyone has paid attention, there is a deck on magic online that has been doing well in the legacy daily events that replaced the careful study for the researcher.
This way we just run both. Old reanimator was running both and looking back as well, many weren't running mystical either.
It isn't great to have it gone, but its also not the end of the world either.

[Vodka_7up]

Has anyone looked at taking the deck in a direction more like old Psychatog? i.e. a control deck with a combo/creature finish? A bunch of cantrips, some draw&discard spells for draw/advantage, then a bunch of control cards and finish with the reanimation package? Basically taking the deck slower and in more of a control/combo hybrid position? Or am I just crazy for thinking that?

If you ran Psychatog why bother with the big fatties and just use Beserk . . . that is if you're looking for a combo win.

[Jon Stewart]

Has anyone looked at taking the deck in a direction more like old Psychatog? i.e. a control deck with a combo/creature finish? A bunch of cantrips, some draw&discard spells for draw/advantage, then a bunch of control cards and finish with the reanimation package? Basically taking the deck slower and in more of a control/combo hybrid position? Or am I just crazy for thinking that?

No, not a control deck per se. But a more controllish deck.

Intuition and playing 3/4 Thoughtseizes are good first steps in that direction. It tutors for reanimate spell, tutors for answers, functions as Entomb 5-8, doesn't cause card disadvantage and most importantly also grabs stuff like Daze and FoW at instant speed in response to a key spell.

My testing has shown it to be very strong.

[4eak]

In light of -4x Mystical, we should consider either Ponder or Personal Tutor and 1x Buried Alive (Intuition is much weaker). Careful Study now appears irreplaceable, and we should consider higher redundancy in Reanimator targets (particularly Iona). I think the deck is much less powerful without the tutor, but it is certainly salvageable (I'm doubtful it will be DTB material in the future though).

Some may consider CounterTop in the deck, but frankly, I think Tarmogoyf + friends is a more consistent strategy than Reanimator with a CBTop shell.



peace,
4eak

[Jon Stewart]

If we were to replace Mystical Tutor with a creature and I don't think we should, I think Intuition is the better option...

but if we were, I think there are cases to be made for both Hapless Researcher and Putrid Imp...

Putrid Imp Pros
Lets you fly over head and attack for one or two damage.
Can be sacced to edict effect after you renimate your Inkwell


Hapless Researcher Pros
Is Blue (can be pitched to fow)
Draws you a card.

I don't know, it seems like both cards have their own merits.

But another option is... why not simply run a full playset of 4 Thoughtseize and even a couple of Blackmail/Cabal Therapy. That way, you can target yourself to make yourself discard a creature, or if you have no creature in hand, you can target your opponent to get rid of hate.

[samurai_socks]

Here are some cards that can offer potential replacements or if not at least fuel discussion and conjecture. I have made the list more complete rather than less so, thus there are cards you will not agree with.

Artifact
S. Top
Scroll Rack

Blue
Mental Note
Ponder
Predict
Personal Tutor
Intuition
Strategic Planning ---> My personal choice.
Hapless Researcher
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Impulse
Merchant Scroll

Black
Buried Alive
Putrid Imp

Gold
Lim Dul's Vault

-Cheers-

PS- I would also think -4 MT +4 Show and Tell would be a possibility. The deck may need to move to more of a show and tell deck.

[stu55]

Before people freak out, I am pretty sure ppl need to test A)Lim-Dul's Vault, B) Personal Tutor, and C) Sensei's Divining Top in the spot that was Mystical Tutor.

[voltron00x]

Wanted to post briefly - the bulk of my Monday article is about Reanimator. It was awesome having to re-write it as I found out Mystical was banned at 12:05 AM just as I finished writing it..... grumble grumble.

Anyway, I think you have to consider the two things Mystical brings to the table: 1 - Consistency, 2 - Resilience

Consistency is actually relatively easy to replicate. Personal Tutor does the same thing, but not as well. Ponder and Top dig and play nice with all the fetches and Careful Studies. Strategic Planning is an expensive but very good option as it digs 3 and dumps into the Graveyard. I also like the idea of playing with the mana base and adding Cephalid Coliseum paired with Strat. Planning.

The Resilience, well, that's hard to replicate. You lose your ability to run 1 E. Truth, or1 Show and Tell; wasting an Entomb on a set-up card becomes much worse w/out Mystical Tutor because each Entomb is much more precious. Single cards like Diabolic Edict or Coffin Purge become much worse out of the board.

Ultimately, I think Reanimator actually remains a top-tier deck. If most people forget about it, it will still smash unprepared Aggro players with ease. It just might have to up its anti-CB cards (like Null Rod, Needle, Wipe Away, or even splashing into K. Grip or Reverent Silence off Dryad Arbor).

[Jon Stewart]

Before people freak out, I am pretty sure ppl need to test A)Lim-Dul's Vault, B) Personal Tutor, and C) Sensei's Divining Top in the spot that was Mystical Tutor.

I would definately add Intuition to that list. It's really an underestimated card. Has been fantastic in testing.

As for those suggestions...

Personal Tutor can't tutor up Entomb. And Entomb is the only way you have to tutor the ideal creature for the matchup into your yard, so it's pretty important to be able to tutor up as you run only four ways to do it in the deck.

Top isn't a tutor, this deck needs a tutor.

And as for Lim Dul's Vault, don't see a deck like Reanimator running it. Mystical Tutor was horrible card disadvantage. The fact that it was 1cc made up for it by gaining tempo.

But the second you make it two color and 2cc, card disadvantage tutors lose their viability imo.

The most popular tutored card with M. Tutor was Entomb.

So compare Lim Dul's Vault to Intuition.

Vault into Entomb, cost three mana, and nets you -1 card disadvantage to get one Iona into the yard.

Intuition costs three mana, doesn't create any card disadvantage, and either dumps both an Iona and a Inkwell Leviathan into the yard and puts another Iona in your hand, or dumps 2 Iona's into your yard and puts an Inkwell Leviathan into your yard that you can pitch to FoW.

But more importantly, Intuition can grab you a FoW or Daze or Stifle at instant speed and put it directly into your hand, in response to a Yixlid Jailer for example.

If speed is what you're worried about, just make room for Dark Ritual in the deck. You will still be able to combo off turn one if you have both combo pieces, or on turn two if you have intution. So it would be just as fast or faster than Mystical Tutor was.

I do expect the deck to see less play. But I also expect a lot of the hate to die down.

Practically my entire meta is either maindecking or sideboarding Faierie Macabre right now. I expect that to go away. I expect Fairie Macabre to disappear for the most part and get replaced with Crypts and Relics which Null Rod stops. And thus I actually expect this deck would perform better in my meta, not worse.

As for being able to tutor up antihate. Yes, you can't tutor up one of silver bullets like you could with Mystical Tutor. But on the other hand, you can now tutor up anti-hate permanents, which is actually a pretty big deal. Permanents actually stick around for the duration of the whole game.

You can tutor up cards like Null Rod which shuts down the bulk of the hate this deck can expect to face now that everyone and their grandmother won't be maindecking Fairie Macabre.

I personally think the slightly slower more controllish path is the way to go.

But if you want to go pure aggro, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to start from the build in the OP and work off of that. The build was clearly based on a lot of testing and was pretty aggressive. It's actually far more consistent in letting you combo off by turn two than the preban builds of the deck. It just had to become more focused on black and sacrifice FoW in order to make this happen.

Obviously the build in the OP is outdated and the deck should play Ionas, and Thoughtseizes over Oona's Prowlers and what not, but just in terms of strategy, it could work...

Here's my quick and dirty take on that deck...

Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder/Breakthrough

Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 12 Reanimates, 12 Creatures (Counting Entomb), 12 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb & Thoughtseize), 8 Disruption Spells AND 11 Cantrips . That should make the deck pretty damn consistent if nothing else.

If the deck plays Breakthrough though, it should probably make room for Dark Ritual as well.

[Akuma]

Just to set the record straight, as far as Reanimator is concerned:

Buried Alive is garbage
Intuition is garbage
Lim-Dul's Vault is garbage
Personal Tutor is garbage
Sensei's Divining Top is garbage

Mystical Tutor is IRREPLACEABLE with the current available card pool. Without it, you are done. You lose your speed, versatility and reliability. While the ANT people will probably survive the loss of this card, Reanimator as we know it will not. The deck might evolve in another direction but it will remain a mere fringe player that may win here or there when the stars align.

I don't mean to sound negative, but if you have spent any decent amount of time playing this deck I think the severity of this loss is evident. I would really love to hear what the pros like Gerry Thompson and LSV have to say about this. I can't imagine any of them advocating the use of this deck in any future Legacy tournament.

With all this being said, I would love to be wrong, I would love for this archetype to continue to flourish. I just don't see it happening and it had just reached DtB status :(

[Master Shake]

Just to set the record straight, as far as Reanimator is concerned:

Buried Alive is garbage
Intuition is garbage
Lim-Dul's Vault is garbage
Personal Tutor is garbage
Sensei's Divining Top is garbage

Mystical Tutor is IRREPLACEABLE with the current available card pool. Without it, you are done. You lose your speed, versatility and reliability. While the ANT people will probably survive the loss of this card, Reanimator as we know it will not. The deck might evolve in another direction but it will remain a mere fringe player that may win here or there when the stars align.

I don't mean to sound negative, but if you have spent any decent amount of time playing this deck I think the severity of this loss is evident. I would really love to hear what the pros like Gerry Thompson and LSV have to say about this. I can't imagine any of them advocating the use of this deck in any future Legacy tournament.

With all this being said, I would love to be wrong, I would love for this archetype to continue to flourish. I just don't see it happening and it had just reached DtB status :(

Thanks guy, you have offered a negative argument and contributed nothing.

As the world learned with the fight over Intelligent Design, a negative argument is not an argument all, you're just starting that everyone else is wrong but are in no way willing to offer a suggestion.

I think there is likely a way to make the deck a solid tier 2 deck - the creatures are so powerful and hate is diminishing.

And ANT cannot really survive this it really needs Mystical to work at all.

[Jon Stewart]

Mystical Tutor is not a combo piece, it's a tutor for a combo piece.

Other tutors exist.

Intuition is both a combo piece and a tutor, and even a control piece (it grabs daze/fow at instant speed), plus it doesn't cause card disadvantage like Mystical Tutor did.

If speed is what you're worried about, just make room for Dark Ritual in the deck. You will still be able to combo off turn one if you have both combo pieces, or on turn two if you have intution. So it would be just as fast or faster than Mystical Tutor was.

I do expect the deck to see less play. But I also expect a lot of the hate to die down.

Practically my entire meta is either maindecking or sideboarding Faierie Macabre right now. I expect that to go away. I expect Fairie Macabre to disappear for the most part and get replaced with Crypts and Relics which Null Rod stops. And thus I actually expect this deck would perform better in my meta, not worse.

As for being able to tutor up antihate. Yes, you can't tutor up one of silver bullets like you could with Mystical Tutor. But on the other hand, you can now tutor up anti-hate permanents, which is actually a pretty big deal. Permanents actually stick around for the duration of the whole game.

You can tutor up cards like Null Rod which shuts down the bulk of the hate this deck can expect to face now that everyone and their grandmother won't be maindecking Fairie Macabre.

[Akuma]

I think there is likely a way to make the deck a solid tier 2 deck - the creatures are so powerful and hate is diminishing.

And ANT cannot really survive this it really needs Mystical to work at all.

That was the point, this deck is no longer tier 1. I'm not being NEGATIVE, I'm just stating what I believe to be the truth. My contribution is this: if you want to win, look into another archetype.

I'm aware of the possibility that ANT cannot survive either, but I don't play that deck so I'm not going to provide an opinion on something I have not tested.


Mystical Tutor is not a combo piece, it's a tutor for a combo piece.

Other tutors exist.

Mystical Tutor is the deck's engine. Now, no engine. Intuition cost 3 mana, that is an enormous difference.

[Jon Stewart]

Intuition is an even more powerful deck engine/tutor/combo piece. It can get multiple creatures into the yard and one more in your hand just in case they manage to sweep away your yard. And it has the advantage that it doesn't cause card disadvantage.

Yes it costs 3 mana, but that can be nullified by playing Dark Ritual in the deck.

[vikram]

Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread off and on. I know a lot of people are mad about the ban. I don't think it's the end of the deck though.

I started playing this list. I based the manabase off the SCG Top 8 Reanimator list. And the deck is still pretty powerful.

Creatures
3 Tombstalker
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force Of Will
3 Dark Ritual
3 Intuition

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

I added Tombstalker to the deck a while ago, and it's awesome. Many games were won on the back of the 5/5 flyer. It works really well with Dark Ritual, Careful Study and now Intuition. I wouldn't cut that card for anything.


I was hoping to get your advice on the sideboard. Pithing Needle/Null Rod both seem good, which is better? Should I splash green into the maindeck, or just splash it from the board if needed? I kind of wanted to add Animate Deads to the list but I don't know what I could cut.

[jrsthethird]

Should have a singleton Dryad Arbor in the board. Looks like your manabase already supports it, with 8 green fetches and only 2 on-color.

[vikram]

Yeah the fetchlands don't matter that much, but I fixed that.

I definately do want to splash green from the board though. I want to blow up Countertops, Leylines and Humilities. Either Pithing Needle or Null Rod should take care of most of the other hate this deck could see. Which do you think is better, Needle or Null Rod?

[death]

How about EE?

[jrsthethird]

Have you even considered Dryad Arbor in the board?

[vikram]

Yes, against edict and innocent bloods.

The thing is, the first creature I reanimate is almost always Iona (naming black against any deck that would play edicts).

So I don't see that being all that useful. If edict and innocent blood start giving me problems, I'll play it.

[jrsthethird]

...then she dies to Swords.

Also it's good in the mirror because you can attack with it while countering all your opponent's reanimation spells.

[Muradin]

Guys, stop whining. The deck is still quite viable, even without Mystical Tutor. Sure it will go down in popularity and lose a bit of its power but people will simply proceed to play it because they actually own the deck and people are lazy in general. So someone who really likes this deck will come up with a substitute for Mystical Tutor. This will in my oppinion probably be some changes towards a more controlish and resilient version running Intuition and Tombstalkers. This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

[RexFTW]

I did some testing with Lim Dul's Vault and it did not hurt the decks perfromance that badly. There was a 65% chance to combo turn 2 with mystical and 49% with LDV. I will post all the results tmrw when i have more time.

[Jon Stewart]

By my approximation, 60% of the time, the card you tutored up with Mystical Tutor was Entomb.

You played 8 reanimate effects and only 4 entomb effects, so the odds of having a Reanimate effect in hand were always pretty high.

Isn't it significantly stronger to pay 3 mana to tutor up two creatures into the yard, and one more to your hand just in case your yard gets cleared (or to serve as careful study or fow fodder),

stronger than it is to play 2 mana and3 life on average, to tutor an entomb to the top of your library, suffer -1 card disadvantage, wait a turn, then spend a 3rd mana to entomb one creature into your yard.

Both approaches cost you 3 mana to do a similar thing, but Intution does that thing better (put 2 creatures in your yard and another in your hand), and does it without making you lose your next turn's draw or your life.

Of course both cards can tutor up anything, but even when you are not tutoring up an entomb, I feel like paying one extra mana is worth not losing 3 life on average and also not losing your draw next turn/having to wait a turn to get the card you want/not being able to grab a FoW or Daze immediately.

But maybe I'm wrong. The one scenario where I could see Vault being comparable to Intuiton is if you tutor up a Careful Study to the top of your library and a creature or two right underneath it. This would make up for the card disdvantage Vault causes, but not for the loss of life.

[Justin]

By my approximation, 60% of the time, the card you tutored up with Mystical Tutor was Entomb.

You played 8 reanimate effects and only 4 entomb effects, so the odds of having a Reanimate effect in hand were always pretty high.

Isn't it significantly stronger to pay 3 mana to tutor up two creatures into the yard, and one more to your hand just in case your yard gets cleared (or to serve as careful study or fow fodder),

stronger than it is to play 2 mana and3 life on average, to tutor an entomb to the top of your library, suffer -1 card disadvantage, wait a turn, then spend a 3rd mana to entomb one creature into your yard.

Both approaches cost you 3 mana to do a similar thing, but Intution does that thing better (put 2 creatures in your yard and another in your hand), and does it without making you lose your next turn's draw or your life.

Of course both cards can tutor up anything, but even when you are not tutoring up an entomb, I feel like paying one extra mana is worth not losing 3 life on average and also not losing your draw next turn/having to wait a turn to get the card you want/not being able to grab a FoW or Daze immediately.

But maybe I'm wrong. The one scenario where I could see Vault being comparable to Intuiton is if you tutor up a Careful Study to the top of your library and a creature or two right underneath it. This would make up for the card disdvantage Vault causes, but not for the loss of life.

You make an excellent argument for Intuition. I agree that it is probably the best substitute for Mystical Tutor in Reanimator. It can fetch reanimator spells or even get a force of will direcly in your hand in a pinch.

One serious problem with Intitution is the mana cost. Reanimator is light on land count, and sometimes you won't have three mana available. It will also run into Daze more often. Another problem is the slowness of the card. Unless you are playing mana acceleration, you won't cast Intution until turn three. That means you won't be reanimating a big creature until turn four. With Mystical Tutor, you could drop Underground Sea and tutor on turn one. Then on turn two, you could drop a second Underground Sea and cast Entomb and Reanimate to get a big creature out two turns earlier than you can with Intution. I wonder if this slowness will doom the deck.

In another question, do you think players will be taking Faerie Macabre out of their sideboards now that Reanimator has been hampered by this banning? I would think this would be the case, as I'm revising my sideboards for my other decks.

[Jon Stewart]

I think many decks will indeed take out Faeirie Macabre's assuming a sufficent number of Reanimator players stop playing the deck, which could take a month or so. Macabre is ideal against Reanimator, but against most other graveyard based decks, there are far better alternatives.

I do think a lot of black decks that were playing Macabre will switch over to Leyline, and we need to be prepared to answer that card. Fortunately, it's an easier card to answer especially if you splash green. But Echoing Truth works as well.

And the only other grave hate I anticipate seeing frequently is Crypt and Relic, both of which can be stopped cold by either Pithing Needle or Null Rod.

Yes the slowness is the biggest problem with Intution, and the deck will either have to run more lands, or up the Dark Ritual count, or maybe even both, to support it.

To be fair though, Vault, Top and all the other alternatives being discussed are just as slow. They cost 2 mana and make you wait a turn, and then costing another mana to cast the Entomb, rather than costing 3 mana straight up to do what Entomb does that same turn.

However, this doesn't doom the deck in my opinion. You can still Dark Ritual, Entomb + Exhume turn one, or Careful Study + Reanimate turn two.

And you can likewise, Dark Ritual + Intuition + Reanimate on turn two.

So the deck is usually just as fast or faster in most scenarios. It's slower in maybe 20% of the scenarios that you are comboing off in. The only times you are slower is when you are both dependent on Intuition to combo off and don't have a Dark Ritual in your hand to help out.

[Justin]

Dark Ritual seems like a "must" card with the new Reanimator. The question is what to cut if you are bringing in dark rits or increasing the land count. With Mystical Tutor gone, Reanimator decks should take out their singleton Show and Tell and bounce spell, which will leave two open slots. I'm not sure where the other slots will come from. It might be best just to play three Intution instead of four.

[Jon Stewart]

I agree with you, Dark Ritual seems crucial.

The build here

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-[Deck]-B-U-Reanimator&p=464623&viewfull=1#post464623

doesn't seem like a bad start.

I wonder if that list could get away with cutting Thoughtseize completely and maybe cutting a single Careful Study for another land, another Dark Ritual and another Intuition.

I am not sure if it makes sense to play 4 Careful Study if the deck is only playing 4 creatures worth reanimating.

[oldbsturgeon]

Yeah I hate the deck now. I replaced the mysticals with other cards, first hapless researchers, then lim dul's vault and then intuition, and its pretty terrible feeling now.
So I have the entombs, which actually sold today, and the underground seas for the deck on ebay. I at least made a profit.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

[PanderAlexander]

I agree, you cannot just replace mystical, if you do the deck isn't bad but not nearly as good. I think if the deck does survive and stay competive it will need to be revamped, a completely different play style.

[practical joke]

For me it will be hardly a change of playstyle.

I always worked my reanimate list with 4 careful study and 4 lotus petal.
I counted yesterday the ammount of games I used mystical effectively.

5 rounds of swiss and a t4 ( which I won, final split)

I used it once to go off T2 and twice as a end-game win.

I discared the card more often to careful study or pitched it to FoW.
Most should know my list as it was since it has been here a few times.

I'll be trying to remake reanimate without mysticals for sure, and it will not include intuition ( maybe as a 1-off, randomness ftw)

lim-duls vault should be working fine, sure the ammount of T2 drops won't be as high, but heck, you didn't always had a mystical tutor on hand either sometimes you just won out of a entomb + exhume rightaway.
'
I'll probably will be playing something like this. ( testing will still have to follow)

4 delta
4 random fetch to black
3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 swamp
1 island

4 lotus petal
4 thoughtseize
4 careful study
4 force of will
4 daze
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 brainstorm
2 hapless researcher or 2 putrid imp

4 ione shield of emeria
1 inkwell leviathan
2 sphinx of the steel wind
1 blazing archon


sideboard:

1 coffin purge
3 extirpate
4 show and tell
3 nature's claim
2 krosan grip
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 inkwell leviathan


Why I chose for this build: it's about chances
getting things in your graveyard comes first, with 14 1-mana discard outlets I have no doubt it'll happen.
That's also why I will be upping the creature count. Because I can go for a hideous 10creature ammount post-board I added the full set of show and tells again, giving the deck an option to get mulitples on board. ( for example against zoo, daze does nothing, and thoughtseize is limited)
I added 2 krosan grips next to the 3 nature's claim since a first turn chalice @ 1 is devastating.

Further testing will have to result in me liking this or not, I'll make any changes if they feel necessary

[Shabbaman]

You are running low on mana. I'd suggest Dark Ritual instead of Petal and then Buried Alive in place of HR/PI. You could cut down the number of reanimation targets to make room for something else. DR plus Buried Alive seems better than Intuition. What I don't like about Intuition is that you have to run sets of three of the card you want to tutor. Even if it would get me Entomb, I wouldn't want to put two Entombs in the yard... I'm not exactly thrilled by Personal Tutor. It could get me Buried Alive (instead of Mystical into Entomb), but the sorcery speed is disappointing.

On the other hand, Lim-dul's vault is as exciting as it ever was. Legally stacking your deck is awesome :) One upside about LDV: it's blue, so it pitches to FoW. Your list is running low on blue.

BTW, it seems to me that if anyone would want to go budget, monoblack with Spoils of the Vault (Vault Dragon FTW) doesn't seem as terrible compared to the B/U version as it was before the banning of Mystical Tutor :/

[practical joke]

funny thing,

I only run 1 less blue card than my previous list.

lim-duls vault is a fine option, but I will definately let muppet86 test with that, since he's more attuned to a little slower ponder-built reanimate. ( yes with rituals)

I'm never running low on mana, 18 mana sources is plenty.

It's even a lot sometimes, as with the addition of hapless researcher I even run more cards to dig through my deck ( oh noes, it's a crappy cantrip whatsoever) it'll be fine as it is now as well.

I don't give a rats ass about buried alive since it's terribly slow. intuition is at least instant speed and by far superior to something like buried alive since it gives me choises, and most important it gives my opponent choises he doesn't even want.

I want to keep the speed high in this build, not it's consistency, which has been lowered by the loss of mystical. but that matters for both decks anyways.

The downside on lim-dulsvault is that it can cost you a fair ammount of life. which will affect gameplans drastically.

[Vacrix]

I suggest that everyone stop trying to find Mystical Tutor 'replacements'. The fact is there aren't any. You can play Intuition but even that is not a very versatile 1cc spell that dodges discard. Everyone ought to rework the entire Reanimator strategy if its going to stay afloat. Merely finding replacement slots for the current builds may not necessarily be the answer.

A while back, I saw someone try a Reanimator variant that used Enlightened Tutor as a utility spell, finding Animate Dead, Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx of the Steel Winds. It can also find you Null Rod post-board if you have to deal with hate, and it can find O-ring for trouble-some permanents. Thoughts on this approach?

Otherwise, I think more cantrips is the right call. Don't use something shitty like Hapless Researcher or Putrid Imp. You can always try Breakthrough. I've tried it a few times in my build and it works well. If you Breakthrough for 2, keeping discard + Reanimation, discarding a creature, its tech. Sometimes it can be really bad though, like if you want to protect your Reanimation with FoW. In that case, Breakthrough builds might work better for discard protection suites.

[practical joke]

with breakthrough at 3mana, you might as well get intuition going >.<

hapless researcher isn't there as a mystical replacement, but as a discard outlet.
I'm not playing 4 iona's for nothing

There has been some thinking done, I admit I could've been under influence at that time.

[Cacks]

Personal tutor seems the best bet - just picked up 4 too - as it can find the reamination package, careful study, thoughsieze, and for the sideboard, show and tell, and various utility bullets. Since entomb is going to be much harder to find, may need something horrible like buried alive (there must be better options out there?) to tutor up. Will probably need to rejig the deck to something like 4 Iona, as careful studying may become more important. The deck is certainly hit hard, and will need to slow down, but I am not sure it is completely dead just yet.

[JonBarber]

Heres a crazy idea, Gamble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=10654). It doesn't show your opponent what card you are getting, your odds of kicking the picked card out of your 6/7 card hand are pretty slim, and it can find anything you need. Not to mention, with no cards in hand it becomes another entomb.

[practical joke]

yes, and the one dead card late-game is entomb ><

[jazzykat]

I think that IF "we" decide to go with either buried alive or intuition then I think we need to consider Bloodghast somewhere as it provides a very nasty trick.

Is there a bad demonic tutor somewhere that is says something like?

B1 Sorcery. Search your library for a card and put it in your hand. As an added cost discard a card as part of the cost.


Also, while it is a bit slower has anyone considered top. It seems that AdNT lists were running it. It may provide us the needed dig and gets us the card immediately...

[lep]

I reworked my build to be the following,

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island

3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Terostadon
1 Blazing Archon

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Personal Tutor
3 Ponder
4 Careful Study
1 Show and Tell

2 Thoughtseize

Is has been running fairly consistent but the major loss is the toolboxness of the original build. I was forced to cut the only bounce and the board would need to be completely reworked. I tried it with Intuition but the mana cost of the spell meant I would need to rework the manabase and cut more into the deck to accomodate more lands and most likely Dark Ritual. The other major problem is quality of opening hands. As with any reanimator build you have to be agressive about mulligans to ensure your quality of opening hands. Unlike the mystical build though you don't often come back from a mull to 4 or 5.

[death]

The changes I've made to Gerry/LSV's build was to cut the singleton utilities (bounce/purge/SnT) as you cannot literally find them anymore. A 3rd Thoughtseize for Show and Tell has been doing well as a discard outlet, I also added 4x Ponder and 2x Animate Dead making reanimation less difficult. About 65-70% of the games I played never needed a Mystical Tutor. However, finding those 4x Entombs early and consistently is a problem without the tutors.

Edit: Personal Tutor won't be good, it does not solve the problem of finding Entombs.

[lep]

Edit: Personal Tutor won't be good, it does not solve the problem of finding Entombs.

The problem you face is there is no valid way to find Entomb beyond sheer card draw. Intuition is outside the curve and really is lackluster. I can see the bonus of running Intuition for 3 dudes but I wouldn't often want to go for much else. We do not have instant speed instant tutors any longer. You can either rebuild the shell into a more of a control build, which I am not a fan of, or try to win off of card advantage or card quality. I went with the later. Although Personal Tutor cannot find Entomb, you can pull Show and Tell, Careful Study, and Ponder to filter your quality some.

The only hope I really have is that people start running less hate and a more aggressive version will be able to survive.

[death]

I personally don't like Show and Tell main because 98% of decks don't play GY hate g1. Occasionally, there were times my opponent would drop something relevant off SnT (Humility, Sower, Oblivion Ring, etc.)

[Jon Stewart]

I personally think the slightly slower more controllish path is the way to go.

But if you want to go pure aggro, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to start from the build in the OP and work off of that. The build was clearly based on a lot of testing and was pretty aggressive.

12 Reanimate effects, and 14 Discard effects (counting Entomb) + 14 Creatures (counting Entomb) + 4 Brainstorm, 4 Careful Study and 2 Hapless Researcher to draw you more cards seems a lot more promising at getting you a turn 2 combo every game if you ask me. It's actually far more consistent in letting you combo off by turn two than the preban builds of the deck. It just had to become more focused on black and sacrifice FoW in order to make this happen.

Obviously the build in the OP is outdated and the deck should play Ionas, and Thoughtseizes over Oona's Prowlers and what not, but just in terms of strategy, it could work...

Here's my quick and dirty take on that deck...

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze

Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2x Inkwell Leviathan
2x Blazing Archon
2x Hapless Researcher

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Swamp
1x Island

I may have gone overboard on the discard outlets. If so, it just means more room to squeeze in more good stuff into the deck. Possibly some Life/Death or Dance of the Dead.

[The Wolf]

Just a note, personal tutor can get a 1x of buried alive, 1x show and tell, and exhume. Its slower, and buried alive is more expensive, but its not a total bust.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah but Entomb is the best card in the whole deck. It doubles as both a creature and discard outlet. There's a reason it was banned for so long.

If a tutor can't grab the best card in the deck, then it's not a great tutor.

I think I was wrong about my previous build. If it also runs Breakthrough/Ponder, it wouldn't even need to play more than 12 discard outlets or creatures.

Here's my revised build...

Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder/Breakthrough

Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 12 Reanimates, 12 Creatures (Counting Entomb), 12 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb & Thoughtseize), 8 Disruption Spells AND 11 Cantrips . That should make the deck pretty damn consistent if nothing else.

If the deck plays Breakthrough though, it should probably make room for Dark Ritual as well.

[Jon Stewart]

Does Reanimator as a deck even have to be about reanimating big creatures? Or can it just be about reanimating creatures?

Could something like this be effective?


Spells:
3x Cabal Therapy/Dark Ritual
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
4x Breakthrough/Buried Alive/Intuition

Creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bloodghast
4x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

Yes the deck is similar to Ichorid, but I think this version is stronger than Ichorid rather than weaker.

[Vacrix]

I think all the attempts at innovation are good. This is what we need, crazy ideas that might come to fruition.

@ Jon Stewart
I like your first list better. Turning into Ichorid isn't a good idea IMO.



What if we tried.. Burning Wish? We don't necessarily need to keep playing a fast build. We could play sweepers in the board to deal with aggro, and then follow it up with reanimation. BW can grab reanimation spells, protection, or sweepers. Seems pretty good to me.

[RexFTW]

@Jon Stewart
How well do Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker play together? It would seem like they have poor synergy.

[RexFTW]

Mystical Tutor vs Lim Dul's Vault AKA "LDV"

I did a little study to find out how much switching to LDV from Mystical would slow down the deck in game 1. I did 40 test draws and played each with Mystical and then the exact same hand (and cards drawn) with LDV in place of the mystical. The list used was LSV's list from SCG posted on a previous page.

The results were:
Mystical tutor
25/40 (62%) combo on turn 2
10/40 (25%) combo on turn 3
2/40 (5%) combo on turn 4
3/40 (8%) fail to combo before turn 5

Lim Dul's Vault
19/40 (47%) combo on turn 2
16/40 (40%) combo on turn 3
3/40 (7%) combo on turn 4
2/40 (5%) fail to combo before turn 5

You can see that the LDV list is slowed by one turn in many of the games where LDV has to be used to get a combo piece (about 20% of games). Also note that many of these slower games were able to be played with Exhume instead of reanimate, taking much less damage from LDV than Reanimate.
You will also see that LDV allowed me to combo before turn 5 with a poor mulligained hand when Mystical did not. (actually went off turn 3!)

LDV plays poorly with turn 1 Daze.

However, it does allow some luckey "Vault piles" like {careful study, reanimate, guy} or {exhume, guy, with study in hand} or {Brainstorm, entomb, reanimate}.

I think vault is also better at recovering if your hand is empty or almost empty after taking a faerie to face or similar.

Obviously you cannot run the 4 needle, 11 instant sideboard as well with LDV.

LDV is extra strong when you have brainstorm in hand or can put it on top!

Here is the raw data if anyone wants to do more math.

The first number is the number of turns to combo with mystical. If there is a second number, that is the number of turns to combo with the exact same hand and LDV instead of Mystical. * is a failure to combo before turn 5.

2 - 3
3 - 4
3
3
3
2
2 - 3
3
*
3
2 - 3
2
2
2
2
2 - 3
2
4
2
2
2
* - 3
2
2
4
3
2 - 3
3
2
3
2
2 - 3
2
2
2
2
3
2
2
*

[Vacrix]

These are goldfishing numbers though right? LDV makes you pay life, which significantly changes the math when you are facing down a team of Nacatl's and Goyfs. You ought to also include the amount of life you are paying each time you play LDV that way you can more accurately depict the viability of LDV as a replacement for Mystical Tutor.

[DFY889]

Has anyone considered a build with 3-4 maindeck Show and Tell and maybe a few more monsters?

[menace13]

Has anyone considered a build with 3-4 maindeck Show and Tell and maybe a few more monsters?

I am testing 3 main SNT with 10 dudes and also trying out a version that runs Goyfs main(emidln had suggested something like this wether it was main or side cant remember).Both of the lists leave something to be desired, there are intervals where you can not recover or find the exact missing spell to chain.

@rex-They play pretty well together Team America and Eva Green has used that pair for years.

[RexFTW]

well I normally use LDV to set up turn 3 exhume instead of turn 2 reanimate so you pay much less life.

And yes, all goldfishing.

[JonBarber]

Alright, I've got two more events I can play misty in, and I want to make good use of her. I expect a lot of the meta will probably feel this way, so I figured reanimator was a better choice than ANT. What are some recommendations for a meta thats fairly heavy in control/reanimator/ant/zoo/lands? Careful studies or no? Sideboard is the area I'd probably need the most help with. Thanks for your help!

[comeback]

Yesterday night my first test after the MT ban with is first replacement performed by Lim Dul's Vault.

An extract from my previous list:

Creatures
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria

Tutor, Cantrip and More
3x Mystycal Tutor
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
1x Show and Tell
1x Wipe Away

I already played just 3 MT for Ponder and a full playset of Careful Study so I've just replaced with 3 Lim's Dul Vault and changements are not so bad 'cuz cast with success Lim's Dul Vault means a five cards top deck like:

Brainstorm
Entomb or Exhume
Thoughtseize or Force of Will or 2nd Entomb or Exhume
Lim's Dul Vault or Other Cantrip
Garbage

that means:

- try to reanimate with multiple chances or without a loss of life
- check for the opponent's hand and look forward the turns restarting a new Lim's Dul Vault

Btw I'm quite sure that I need to move some cards from the previous list in order to increase Thoughtseize, I think new kind of play the deck in its control version means protect Lim's Dul Vault or combo and, on the base of opponent's hand, resolve it in the right way (specific target or no loss of life).

My idea is, as first to remove the MT targets:

OUT
- 1 Show and Tell
- 1 Wipe Away
- 1 inkwell Leviathan

IN
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Terastodon
+1 [Free Slot]

Second step is to optimize protections or cantrip shell and here I've not found yet the best choice to improve, I've just seen that:

- Ponder after a Lim Dul's Vault is a quite useless card but guarantee an establish version in T1 and T2
- 4 Careful Study are too much 'cuz I can't opt for a T1 Study and T2 MT for Reanimate

Some hypothesis...

CONTROL OPTIMIZATION

OUT
-1 Daze
-1 Careful Study

IN
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Thougthseize [Free Slot]

so I could play the following list:

CREATURES
1x Terastodon
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria

REANIMATOR STUFF
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb

DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

PROTECTIONS
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce

LANDS:17 with 8 fetch 4 basic lands and a single Bayou

CANTRIP OPTIMIZATION

OUT
-1 Careful Study

IN
+2 Best Cantrip or Tutors Avalible [1 is the Free Slot]

so I could play the following list:

CREATURES
1x Terastodon
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria

REANIMATOR STUFF
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb

DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Strategic Plannic or Personal Tutor or Intuition or WHAT???

PROTECTIONS
4x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
4x Daze

LANDS: 17 with 8 fetch 4 basic lands and a single Bayou

What kind of cards do u fixed in this version?

[jazzykat]

It seems to me that IF we are going to be a little slower/less consistent then the deck needs to have a slighly longer term outlook. For that reason I like Comeback's control list.

The other option that comes to mind since there has already been toying around with is burning wish. You can leave a SnT a reanimate spell, and a seize/duress in the board along with having access to Firespout/Perish 1st. game. Second game you get REBs vs. blue

[practical joke]

Burning wish is acceptable, but it's just as mana-greedy as lim-duls vault, but not an instant.
This will be relevant.
Another relevant thing is that burning wish CAN NOT grab entomb.

what's it with the terastodon, I still haven't found a situation in which another creature from the package couldn't win.
since I don't care enough for 18 power of creatures, without lands left on T3.

I also like comeback's list, but I think it needs a completely different tuning than cards like spell pierce.
We will have to face more aggro than before, and G1, spell pierce is definately the worst card around for maindecking it.
I'd rather play +2 ponder

strategic planning only works with lim-duls vault.
it's a terrible card for reanimate otherwise, if you want to up that ammount play either intuition ( which is incredibly strong, but 3 mana) or preordain ( new cantrip from M11)

[Shabbaman]

Another relevant thing is that burning wish CAN NOT grab entomb.

I agree. If you go with Burning Wish you could just as well go with Personal Tutor.

[comeback]

It seems to me that IF we are going to be a little slower/less consistent then the deck needs to have a slighly longer term outlook. For that reason I like Comeback's control list.

Do you think that DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP section is ok or with 6 cc1 protection a re-definition that allow to play quite surely a Personal Tutor in T2 has to be put in place?

DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study or 1x Careful Study and 2x Strategic Plannig?
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder or Personal Tutor?

Is it correct to read Strategic Plannig like both Ponder and Careful Study?

[jazzykat]

While burning wish does cost 2 and is off color it is NOT card disadvantage, nor does it cost life, and it provides access to your singelton bomb sb options.

I guess the question becomes who are we trying to go faster than Tendrils decks...? We are realistically racing CB but my prediction is that we will see other less consistent combo decks, ZOO, lands, and slow board control. I think the aggro-control decks who don't have very good matchups vs. zoo, lands, or board control are going to get pushed out for a while.

[jazzykat]

EDIT: Strategic Planning only affects the cards you look at. You can't discard what you want like with Study.

[Jon Stewart]

Rex and Control, those were good posts, I would definately opt for Intution over both Strategic Planning and Personal Tutor, but have you guys considered going beyond simply testing Lim Dul's Vault.


What about using the freed up slots to actually make the deck less defensive and more aggressive and consistent?

Something along these lines...

Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 12 Reanimates, 12 Creatures (Counting Entomb), 12 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb & Thoughtseize), 8 Disruption Spells AND 11 Cantrips . That should make the deck pretty damn consistent if nothing else.

This version of the deck is actually really powerful. Rex, I would love to see your goldwish turn results for the above list.

I think they will be unconditionally be superior to your Vault goldfish turns and probably, superior to Mystical Tutor goldfish turns as well.

Yeah, I think Ponder is superior to Breakthrough. But still, I don't want people to misinterpret how Breakthrough would be used in the deck. Yes, you can use it as early as turn 2 or turn 3 to reanimate something asap. But that's something you would only do agianst a combo matchup, or if you are desperate. Most of the time, you shuffle away Breakthrough with Brainstorm in the early game, and use it in the midgame, once you are down to three cards in your hand or less (it happens pretty often, this deck eats through cards in hand rapidly). By turn 3-4 when you only have 2-3 cards in hand, maybe a creature, nothing useful, that's when you use breakthrough to get the creature into the yard and also draw yourself a reanimate effect or two to cast it that turn or the next turn.It's more useful than it sounds, because with this deck, really, the only cards that you want to/need to keep it hand are reanimate effects. Everything else you can pitch with impunity. As a result, once you are down to 3 cards in hand, Breakthrough functions as a Careful Study on steriods.

[RexFTW]

Ill do it next time I have the time.

[Jon Stewart]

Ill do it next time I have the time.

Yes. Please do.

I look forward to seeing the official combo turn, or goldfish turn with the list I just posted. It seems to be blazing fast.

Also, don't forget. When on the play, if you have both a reanimate and a creature in hand, but no discard/entomb effect. Most of time, it's best to pass the turn and just discard the creature during your discard step, and Reanimate it next turn.

Thanks so much.

[Karrcinegin]

A lot of people around the intarwebs seem to think that this will require a major overhaul to the deck. I don't think so. I understand that LDV and Personal Tutor or Intuition aren't piecewise replacements for MT, but I think the vast majority of the shell will remain the same. I think that the deck is still remarkably powerful and with small tweaks is still very consistent.

I've been playing around a bit with a couple ponder and a couple LDV (I don't think it could be a four of) and a few extra ponder. The more games I play the more sure I am that the deck might not be as powerful as it used to be, but that it is still firmly a tier 1 deck. Especially if everyone lets their guard down.

As far as tweaks to the shell, I'm considering increasing my threat density either by going up to 7 or 8 reanimation targets or adding tombstalkers. I think extra big killers will make thoughtseize and careful study more consistent.

I agree that while we may have less selection over which fatty we bring out, with a little more protection, just about any one will do.

Perhaps the biggest question is what cards are valuable enough to stock the sideboard with now that the singleton sideboard will no longer cut it. What cards are useful enough against enough strategies that we can commit space to them? I know that the metagame is going to shift so it is too early for specifics configurations, but I'd like to hear what you guys think.

~Karr.

[Lord_Cyrus]

No, this deck isn't going away at all. Entomb was/is the major issue, not MT. Jon Stewart's list looks fucking terrifying. If that sort of hyper-aggressive build can still goldfish turn 2 most of the time, the DCI looks pretty dumb for failing to nerf a deck that is ultimately a much larger threat than ANT could ever pretend to be.

[RexFTW]

A lot of people around the intarwebs seem to think that this will require a major overhaul to the deck. I don't think so. I understand that LDV and Personal Tutor or Intuition aren't piecewise replacements for MT, but I think the vast majority of the shell will remain the same. I think that the deck is still remarkably powerful and with small tweaks is still very consistent.

I've been playing around a bit with a couple ponder and a couple LDV (I don't think it could be a four of) and a few extra ponder. The more games I play the more sure I am that the deck might not be as powerful as it used to be, but that it is still firmly a tier 1 deck. Especially if everyone lets their guard down.

As far as tweaks to the shell, I'm considering increasing my threat density either by going up to 7 or 8 reanimation targets or adding tombstalkers. I think extra big killers will make thoughtseize and careful study more consistent.

I agree that while we may have less selection over which fatty we bring out, with a little more protection, just about any one will do.

Perhaps the biggest question is what cards are valuable enough to stock the sideboard with now that the singleton sideboard will no longer cut it. What cards are useful enough against enough strategies that we can commit space to them? I know that the metagame is going to shift so it is too early for specifics configurations, but I'd like to hear what you guys think.

~Karr.
Everyone brace yourselfs, this does not happen much on the internets!

I totally agree with every point made here. I think this is the direction that this thread should take.


To your sideboard point:
I think the following should be included:
4x pithing needle
1x Dryad arbor
1x Thoughtsieze
1x Realm Razer
4x Graveyard Disruption
4x Bounce/Enchant Destruction

I think the grave disruption should be either leylines or extirpates.
I think the Bounce/Enchant destruction should be a mix of echoing truth, reverent silence or natures claim.

[Jon Stewart]

No, this deck isn't going away at all. Entomb was/is the major issue, not MT. Jon Stewart's list looks fucking terrifying. If that sort of hyper-aggressive build can still goldfish turn 2 most of the time, the DCI looks pretty dumb for failing to nerf a deck that is ultimately a much larger threat than ANT could ever pretend to be.

Thank you. It is.

I know that M. Tutor isn't banned yet, but I switched over to that list this afternoon anyways. And needless to say, by the end of the night, my playmates who were relieved that they won't have to worry about my Reanimator deck anymore are f***ing pissed.

I think that's a good sign to say the least. :)

[lordofthepit]

There have been a lot of posts saying that the deck doesn't lose much in terms of raw power without Mystical Tutors. I agree; however, the problem is that Mystical Tutor enabled such a versatile sideboard package for dealing with hate, so I think that's what we should focus on.

Does the loss of Mystical Tutor into the singleton sideboard plan mean we cut out Show and Tell entirely, or does it just make sense to up the Show and Tell to like 4 copies out of the sideboard as a semi-transformational plan to deal with graveyard hate?

[Jon Stewart]

I would rather address graveyard hate directly, with cards like Null Rod/Pithing Needle to deal with Relics/Crypts, and cards like Krosan Grips and Echoing Truths to deal with Leylines.

But I don't know which is the better idea to be honest.

[Tokobotenkai]

@Jon:

Your build looks real consistent, but some questions:-
How are your games against hate like?
Have you tried preordain (M11) over ponder?
And do you have your animate dead bounced or destroyed?

[whienot]

4eak gave us a little analysis of Ponder v Serum Visions v Preordain, here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17706-New-cards-from-M11&p=462634&viewfull=1#post462634).

Ponder will almost always be better than Preordain.

[Jon Stewart]

@Jon:

Your build looks real consistent, but some questions:-
How are your games against hate like?
Have you tried preordain (M11) over ponder?
And do you have your animate dead bounced or destroyed?

The only time I had animate dead destroyed last night was during a casual multiplayer match. Usually if I'm using Animate Dead, I make it a priority to animate an Iona shutting down their enchantment destruction color (green or white) if they're playing one. Obviously, that doesn't work in multiplayer.

Even though animate dead is vulnerable to enchantment destruction, it's still worth playing imo. Iona can protect it. If it gets destroyed, the creature is back in your yard you can still cantrip into a Reanimate or Exhume to bring back the creature.

It forces your opponents to not side out their enchantment destruction, which dilutes their deck more as well.

I think the trade off is well worth the additional consistency and speed it adds to the deck.

I'm not sure how the deck does against hate. I haven't decided on a sideboard yet, just threw together some pithing needles, perishes and echoing truths. It seems to work fine last night.

I haven't tried Preordain as the card hasn't been printed yet. I do imagine Ponder would be better because it can dig four cards deep to find you a Reanimate effect.

[alderon666]

4eak gave us a little analysis of Ponder v Serum Visions v Preordain, here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17706-New-cards-from-M11&p=462634&viewfull=1#post462634).

Ponder will almost alwas be slightly better than Preordain.

For me, the main difference between the two cards is that when you see 2 bad cards and 1 good card with Ponder with no shuffle effects available you're screwed. But that is probably more relevant in deck that want to play a longer game.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, it varies by the deck.

But the way my build is constructed, whenit doesn't already have all the pieces to combo off, it just needs one missing piece (either a creature/entomb, a discard effect/entomb, or a reanimate effect) to combo and get an iona into play

Being able to look through 4 cards to find that missing piece is helpful.

[anjo]

I played this list at GP Madrid (yes it was 4 months ago..):

56th Place: Andreas Jonsson
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Show and Tell
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

Sideboard:
4 Progenitus
3 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Misdirection
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Perish
1 Sadistic Sacrament

Yes i relies a lot on Entomb but with 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorms and 4 MT it worked really well. After the 1 July i will play:

- 4 MT
+3 LDV
+1 Thoughtseize

The benefit with playing 3 Dark Ritual is that the sideboard plan with 3 Show and Tell + 4 Creatures (Probably Emrakul now) works really well. LDV also helps to find creatures after sideboarding.

What does everyone think? Do you really need to fill up the deck with 4 careful study and more creatures?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Yes i relies a lot on Entomb but with 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorms and 4 MT it worked really well. After the 1 July i will play:

- 4 MT
+3 LDV
+1 Thoughtseize

The benefit with playing 3 Dark Ritual is that the sideboard plan with 3 Show and Tell + 4 Creatures (Probably Emrakul now) works really well. LDV also helps to find creatures after sideboarding.

What does everyone think? Do you really need to fill up the deck with 4 careful study and more creatures?

If you want to keep this deck fast, you should really avoid LDV like the plague. It's slow, vulnerable to counters, and requires life loss - 3 things which are all really bad for this deck, but in combination are just awful. The card *would* be OK in slower control matchups, except that 2 CC in 2 different colors is really begging for Wasteland and Daze.

I do like the 4 Show and Tell SB plan, however. Sure, it's not all that surprising anymore, but it really takes the deck in a new direction after boarding and invalidates a lot of hate. With 4 in the deck, it won't be hard to find one with all the cantrips either. This kind of transforming SB allows you to play some pretty brutal mind games as well. "Is he bringing in the Show and Tells? Is he staying with the original plan? How much GY hate can I afford to bring in without dying to Show?" These are the kinds of thoughts that can cause irrational fear and lead to mistakes from your opponents.

[practical joke]

@andreas: I remember you :p, we drew the mirror if I'm correct. ( both were to lazy to count the remaining cards, shame I drew terribly last 3 matches)

@ jon: I like your list, but I would play without ponder and add more discard outlets so you don't have to rely on thoughtseize as a discard outlet that much.

Not testing a current build, and not able to give up on the force of will ( which you need against a whole lot of mu's as well)

I'm running 10 reanimation effects: 4 reanimate, 4 exhume, 2 animate dead.
I'm currently testing 4 petals ( as I usually do) and 2 researchers.
Also 18 mana sources is plenty, and a first turn fetcht to bayou for nature's claim should be enough 90% of the matches.

what I cut for that space, probably a single daze or thoughtseize. ( playtesting should give me results about consistency)
I chose double inkwell above sphinx, because of the shroud. even when you reanimate 2 creatures shroud is very important. ( moved a second sphinx to SB, but also depends on meta shift)

Also this will depend on testing and metashifts ( inkwell is the bomb against a whole lot of decks)
My sideboard for now is not including empyrial archangel, but I might to decide to add 1-2 of those, because as a second reanimation target, nothing beats the empyrial archangel. ( yes running 4 show and tell sideboard, with more creatures to be able to run up to 11 creatures mainboard against for example: zoo)

[RexFTW]

here is a list from 2005

Artifacts
2 Mox Diamond

Creatures
1 Phantom Nishoba

Enchantments
4 Zombie Infestation

Instants
3 Intuition

Legendary Creatures
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Duress
4 Exhume
1 Last Rites
3 Reanimate

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp

Lands
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Mire
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Petradon
1 Plated Slagwurm
3 Disrupt
1 Buried Alive
1 Echoing Ruin
3 Last Rites
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Sickening Dreams

It has a few interesting ideas that can be tested:
Rites of refusal
zombie infestation
last rites

rites of refusal seems good against aggresive decks and last rites seems very strong against control or faerie macabre!

also, has anyone considered dispel instead of spell pierce?

It seems like a great choice against STP or PTE or Coffin Purge.

If you want a new, better way to put guys in the yard for just 2 mana Glimpse the Unthinkable seems rather fool-proof.

[Jon Stewart]

Whoa. Glimpse the Unthinkable is not a bad idea at all.

It's basically a 2cc Entomb!! Or to put it better, a 2cc Buried Alive.

Yes, it's not as flexible as Intuition unfortunately. But still, for two mana, it's a fantastic effect.

Good find! I like it, a LOT.

It lets me up the combo pieces count up to 14 of each!

Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
2x Life/Death
4x Entomb
3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
3x Glimpse the Unthinkable

Creatures
4x Iona
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 14 Reanimates, 14 Creatures (Counting Entomb & Glimpse), 14 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb, Glimpse & Thoughtseize), 7 Disruption Spells and 8 Cantrips all in a curve that stops at two . That makes the deck even more consistent than my last build.

I have no idea if this build is actually better than my last build. But going up to 14 of everything instead of just 12 certainly SEEMS stronger. Basically, if a piece is thoughtseized or forced, you are virtually guarenteed to see another copy of whatever effect you need to combo off in just a turn or two.

I think it would be near impossible for the above version of the deck not to combo off on turn 3 in a goldfish scenario.

[comeback]

I've done some specific tests against:

- Canadian Threeshold
- Nassif Baseruption
- Zoo
- Enchantress
- New Horizon

that are a quite big percentage of Italian metagame and I've decided to put in place the following list.

LANDS: 17

4x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bloodstained Mire

Try to mix as much as possible all the fetchlands is just my obsession; I know we are not in 2008 and no one wanna play a Pithing Needle just to target your fetch BTW I think a 1st turn Marsh Flats could create some doubts about what we are playing.

4x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Island
2x Swamp

I've always played 4 basic lands, mana avalaibility is one of the problem that could stop us, especially without MT, and if u do not win the dice an opponent's Stifle and a turn 2 Tarmogoyf is enought for loose the race.

CREATURES: 6

1x Blazing Archon
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sphinx of Stell Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Terastodon

I've put out Inkwell Leviathan, I've not yet understand which are MUs that need it! Ok, it's Islandwalk and Shroud but from my personal experience, if opponent know what we are playing there is the possibility he opts for an aggro plan with maybe a single protection/discard in his first hand and, at list with the following deck, we are not able to win the race:

- Merfolk
- Canadian Threeshold
- New Horizon
- Zoo

Terastond has replaced Inkwell Leviathan 'cuz I'm not playing yet single split-second bouncer so I think that put in place some beasts that lock the game and destroy a specific target could be nice btw obviously its usefull change a lot from case to case.

PROTECTIONS: 11

- 4x Force of Will
- 4x Daze
- 3x Thoughtseize

REANIMATOR STUFF: 13

- 4x Entomb
- 4x Exhume
- 4x Reanimate
- 1x Show & Tell

I've decided to continue to play a single maindeck Show & Tell, IMHO it is a great cards that rapresent a good choice if u won't depends from graveyard and it's a nice target for Personal Tutor or Lim-Dul's Vault for a 2nd Re-animation plan. I know it's sound like a random alternative but u have to look at it like an oiption that allow u to play with an alternative philosophy especially when beast are in your hands.

CANTRIPS, TUTORS & MORE: 13

- 4x Brainstorm
- 3x Careful Study
- 3x Lim-Dul's Vault
- 2x Ponder
- 1x Personal Tutor

This post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-[Deck]-B-U-Reanimator&p=465290&viewfull=1#post465290)show how deck works with LDV instead of MT, ok that it's a goldfish elaboration but we can't forget the consistency and the possibility to "tutor again" offered by LDV. Loss of life is not so relevant 'cuz as possible u look at Exhume, Personal Tutor and Show & Tell could be a single choice to put in pile if u wanna put in place a restart plan in case of combo failure (correct English?).

In add in my previous post:



I already played just 3 MT for Ponder and a full playset of Careful Study so I've just replaced with 3 Lim's Dul Vault and changements are not so bad 'cuz cast with success Lim's Dul Vault means a five cards top deck like:

- Brainstorm
- Entomb or Exhume
- Thoughtseize or Force of Will or 2nd Entomb or Exhume
- Lim's Dul Vault or Other Cantrip
- Garbage

that means:

- try to reanimate with multiple chances or without a loss of life
- check for the opponent's hand and look forward the turns restarting a new Lim's Dul Vault


Personal tutor has 17 targets, sometimes is just a pitch blu but could offer speed and consistency to the deck so I'll conitnue to test it especially when I need a 2nd exhume and I won't to suffer too much with LDV so nowadays it's my 3rd Ponder.

About sideboard I'm define it yet, for sure I'll put:

1x Perish
1x Reverent Silence
1x Thoughtseize
1x Show & Tell

For the rest now I'm opting for:

3x Extirpate
3x Spell Pierce
1x Krosan Grip
2x Null Rod
2x Pithing Needle

My 2 cents!

[Jon Stewart]

So any comments on the plan to use Glimpse the Unthinkable as Exhume 5-7 and using that to further Up the deck to 14 Reanimates, 14 Creatures (Counting Entomb & Glimpse), 14 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb, Glimpse & Thoughtseize), 7 Disruption Spells and 8 Cantrips maindeck all in a curve that stops at two?

[RexFTW]

I tested LimDulsVault vs Glimpse the Unthinkable.

LDV is better as far as speed is concerned but creates card disadvantage. In situations when you are searching for an entomb with LDV glimpse is usually better. One of these only needed to be used 6/20 times or about 30%.

(Note these numbers are consistent with the last series, about 50% turn 2 with LDV)

here are the raw numbers:
The lines with a single number the reanimatin happened on that turn without using either card. The lines with 2 numbers the first number is turns to combo with LDV and the second is turns to combo with glimpse. * means no combo before turn 5.
4-*
3
2
3
*
2
2
2
2
2
4
2
3-3
4-*
2
2
3-3
2
3-3
3-3

[Lord_Cyrus]

Milling yourself sounds pretty great in this deck, I like the fact that you are almost guaranteed to see goodness in your yard. Seems like a more solid plan than thoughtseizing yourself... Ouch! Best thing to do now is test the speed of it. With more blue cards now, I think you should consider Force over Daze. Dazing is great and all... but you will lose games because you don't have a hard counter sometimes.

[RexFTW]

I also tested glimpse vs careful study and careful is far better. I think glimpse is the "next best" for each of these.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Those numbers seem to strongly support LDV. Either way, you naturally have the combo most of the time - but the times when LDV "got there" and glimpse just couldn't are pretty damning for Glimpse.

[RexFTW]

yeah i think if you wanted like a 9th discard outlet after study/entomb glimpse is the next best. It is obviously better than thoughtseize for this but doesnt have the flexibility of disrupting the opponent.

I think if someone went for a new build with zombie infestations, squee, goblin nabobs and bloodghasts that glimpse would be an all star in that deck

[whienot]

Glimpse seems interesting, but is only effective game 1. It's terrible when you have to fight hate in games 2/3. I can see situations where it's as good as double Entomb and Exhume, but it's also a little erratic.

I think the deck can still be played as control-combo. I'll be trying Ideas Unbound as an additional drawer/discard outlet. It gives you more control over what gets binned.

[Jon Stewart]

Those numbers seem to strongly support LDV. Either way, you naturally have the combo most of the time - but the times when LDV "got there" and glimpse just couldn't are pretty damning for Glimpse.

Those numbers do not apply to how I'm using Glimpse. Yes, in Rex's build, where he doesn't already play 14 Reanimate effects, and effectively 14 creatures and 14 discard effects, you need the tutoring the LDV provides despite the card disadvantage, life loss, and mana cost.

But that's not how I'm suggesting Glimpse be using. I'm suggesting that it should be used in a build to obviate the need for tutoring effects altogether, and instead focus on consistency and speed.

For reference, this build to be precise...



Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
2x Life/Death
4x Entomb
3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
3x Glimpse the Unthinkable

Creatures
4x Iona
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 14 Reanimates, 14 Creatures (Counting Entomb & Glimpse), 14 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb, Glimpse & Thoughtseize), 7 Disruption Spells and 8 Cantrips all in a curve that stops at two . That makes the deck even more consistent than my last build.

It would have been more meaningful if Rex applied his algorithm to this precise build above. I think the results would be surpringly strong, atleast based on preliminery playtests.

The only thing I'm not sure about, is if those results would in fact surpass the results achieved by going with that same build with the following changes...

-3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
-2 Life/Death
+3 Ponder
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Sphinx of Steel Wind

Early tests already proved to me that such an approach is also quite strong.

[Jon Stewart]

whienot,

Ideas Unbound is likewise an excellent suggestion. Probably stronger than Glimpse in fact. I can't believe I hadn't noticed this card before.

Careful Study is unquestionably one of the strongest cards in the deck as it serves the function of both letting you draw into more Reanimate effects and creatures, and the function of putting creatures into your yard. So the notion of playing an even stronger Careful Study (albeit at double the casting cost) is extremely tempting.

I'm going to scrap the Glimpse build for now and try to maximize Ideas Unbound.

What do you think of this as a starting point?

Spells
4 Daze
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
2 Life/Death
4 Entomb
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Ideas Unbound

Creatures
4 Iona
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard Options to deal with the only hate this deck is exceedingly vulnerable to (enchantments that shut down your yard)
Echoing Truth
Dryad Arbor
Emerald Charm
Tranquil Domain
Reverent Silence

This likewise allows the deck to run effectively 14 Reanimates, 13 Creatures (Counting Entomb) and 13 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb, Ideas Unbound & Thoughtseize), 7 Disruption Spells and 11 Cantrips all in a curve that stops at two . This works quite out well because Thoughtseize is a card that you would prefer not to have to use as a discard outlet anyways.

Rex, is there any chance you could run your algorithm on this precise build above? Thanks again for the fantastic job you're doing putting different builds of the deck through the ringer.

Edit: Just did some prelimary gold fishes with the deck. Yes I know goldfishes are somewhat meaningless. But I just have to say WOW. Ideas Unbound is fantastic and almost exactly what this deck needed. In 16 goldfishes, there wasn't a single game, not one, where I was unable to combo off by turn 4 at the latest! In fact, in 15 of those 16 goldfishes, I comboed off on turn 3! And in all but four games, a full 75% of the time, I had an additional Reanimate effect in hand so that should my first attempt at reanimation get countered, I would have had a back up ready to go that very next turn.

But really, the most pleasent and inspiring thing about the deck's performance is the ease with which it can draw into and discard more creatures in to the yard, and the ease with which it can draw into more reanimate effects.

As such, cards like tormod's crypts, relics and force of wills serve as mere speed bumps that simply make you wait one more turn till you can play your alternate discard spell or reanimate effect. Really, the only hate that this build seems fearful of are the enchantments that disable graveyards completely (Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon etc). But neither card is something that an Echoing Truth or Emerald Charm/Tranquil Domain/Reverent Silence at the end of your opponent's turn can't deal with.

On that note, splashing green to be able to sideboard Emerald Charm/Tranquil Domain/Reverent Silence seems extremely tempting.

[dragonstout83]

At some point I remember seeing some fairly recent guide that listed what reanimator targets are good in each matchup, as well as maybe a detailed primer...does anyone know what I'm talking about? It was formatted like:

Merfolk: Blazing Archon, Iona

etc.

[Chrommox]

Merfolks ==> Archon / Leviathan
Ichorid ==> Archon / Iona on black
Affinity ==> Archon
Goblins ==> Sphinx / Iona on red (no vial out)
Zoo ==> Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Agro Loam ==> Sphinx / Iona on red
Enchantress ==> Iona on white
Ad Nauseam ==> Iona on black
Eva Green ==> Iona on black
Dark Depths ==> Iona on black or Akroma
Dream Halls ==> Iona on blue
Faeries ==> Empyrial or Leviathan
CounterBalance ==> Leviathan
Canadian ==> Leviathan
Landstill ==> Leviathan
Blue Lands ==> Realm Razer / Iona on Blue
Mirror ==> Iona on black

[RexFTW]

chrommox your forgot Terastodon!

[RexFTW]

I tested ideas unbound. If you are going to play it you definitely need to greatly increase the number of targets past 6. In my tests LDV was much better, probably because I had so few targets.

[Jon Stewart]

In my testing, Ideas Unbound was FAR better and much faster. It both digs for reanimate effects and puts creatures into yard. But it works so well in my build likely because I'm playing between 8-9 creatures maindeck.

[Chill79]

I would change these on Jon Stewart list:
3 Animate Dead (-1)
1 Dance of the Dead (+1)
1 Life/Death (-1)
3 Thoughtseize (+1)
3 Iona (-1)
1 Terastodon (+1)

[menace13]

4 Drowned Catacomb (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Drowned_Catacomb'))
2 Evolving Wilds (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Evolving_Wilds'))
2 Island (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Island'))
4 Polluted Delta (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Polluted_Delta'))
2 Swamp (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Swamp'))
2 Terramorphic Expanse (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Terramorphic_Expanse'))
1 Underground Sea (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Underground_Sea'))
3 Watery Grave (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Watery_Grave'))

20 lands


2 Bogardan Hellkite (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Bogardan_Hellkite'))
4 It That Betrays (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('It_That_Betrays'))
2 Pathrazer of Ulamog (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Pathrazer_of_Ulamog'))
4 Putrid Imp (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Putrid_Imp'))
1 Reya Dawnbringer (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Reya_Dawnbringer'))
13 creatures

This is not a joke.
4 Animate Dead (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Animate_Dead'))
4 Brainstorm (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Brainstorm'))
2 Buried Alive (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Buried_Alive'))
4 Careful Study (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Careful_Study'))
4 Dark Ritual (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Dark_Ritual'))
4 Exhume (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Exhume'))
1 Grim Tutor (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Grim_Tutor'))
4 Ponder (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Ponder'))
27 other spellsSideboard

2 Bojuka Bog (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Bojuka_Bog'))
2 Feldon's Cane (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Feldon[s_Cane'))
2 Helldozer (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Helldozer'))
2 Herald of Leshrac (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Herald_of_Leshrac'))
2 Magus of the Disk (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Magus_of_the_Disk'))
2 Riftwing Cloudskate (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Riftwing_Cloudskate'))
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Sphinx_of_the_Steel_Wind'))
1 Visara the Dreadful (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Visara_the_Dreadful'))

This Went 3-1 in Daily Event 2 nights ago...yes really!

[Wess]

I really like the builds with more re-animate effects and creatures. I don't think tutors are needed at all for this deck to function optimally. Case in point, I think that this deck just got another great creature addition : http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106689&d=1277555221

Frost Titan: it basically has shroud, and taps down a permanant per turn. A turn 2 or 3 reanimation would be really good tempo against almost all decks in the format.

[RexFTW]

I really like the builds with more re-animate effects and creatures. I don't think tutors are needed at all for this deck to function optimally. Case in point, I think that this deck just got another great creature addition : http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106689&d=1277555221

Frost Titan: it basically has shroud, and taps down a permanant per turn. A turn 2 or 3 reanimation would be really good tempo against almost all decks in the format.

In addition to all of its other benefits, it looks like a homosexual giant. A whole new meaning to "chiseled" abs when your made of ice.

but seriously, paying 2 more for swords to plowshares is not that hard. I dont think this guy makes the cut. He doesnt even have evasion and gets double blocked to death by almost anything.

On the other hand, this guy may make it as the anti combo target of choice!
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mm97_fsignfyighuismd.jpg

[Sims]

In addition to all of its other benefits, it looks like a homosexual giant. A whole new meaning to "chiseled" abs when your made of ice.

but seriously, paying 2 more for swords to plowshares is not that hard. I dont think this guy makes the cut. He doesnt even have evasion and gets double blocked to death by almost anything.

On the other hand, this guy may make it as the anti combo target of choice!
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mm97_fsignfyighuismd.jpg

To be quite honest i'd almost rather play the Grave Titan... deathtouch and makes dorks. Seems better than the frost titan, but still doesn't get there.

[Wess]

Yeah, you could be right, I'm still going to test the Frost Titan...anyways, the main point is that we don't need to tutor specific creatures, as they keep making new game-breaking creatures in every set, where you will just need to land one of them to reasonably win the game. Furthermore, without wasting CA on tutoring for combo pieces, it will be much easier to reanimate multiple threats, instead of blowing out the entire hand on reanimating one fatty.

[RexFTW]

To be quite honest i'd almost rather play the Grave Titan... deathtouch and makes dorks. Seems better than the frost titan, but still doesn't get there.

since when has deathtouch been anywhere near as good as haste? and how does grave titan help your combo matchup?

[menace13]

In addition to all of its other benefits, it looks like a homosexual giant. A whole new meaning to "chiseled" abs when your made of ice.

but seriously, paying 2 more for swords to plowshares is not that hard. I dont think this guy makes the cut. He doesnt even have evasion and gets double blocked to death by almost anything.

On the other hand, this guy may make it as the anti combo target of choice!
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mm97_fsignfyighuismd.jpg

Sorry, am a bit confused here.
I don't follow the paying 2 more for StP, what are we StP'ing ? And what is Anti-combo about a non-green shrouder?

[RexFTW]

the clock is shorter than any other critter in the deck.

[menace13]

Sorry again i am now more confused.. The StP thing still remains a mystery and now Iona, shutting down all sorts of spells and 4 turn clock with a lockout ability and evasion, is not what you want when faced with explosive combo. See this is what happens when they ban Mystical Tutor? Now I'll have to go over to Bryant's thread and tell him to play another archetype, because Kalonian Behemoth has combo locked!

[practical joke]

This thread's idiocy makes me cry.


You can go 2 ways with reanimate, replace the mystical next to your ponders with LDV, makes the avg turn to drop a creature 1 later,
Still allows the deck to play sweepers as a one-off in your sideboard. ( i.e. firespout with a red land in SB)

at least plenty of options.

or

Make a whole new deck, kind of a mixture between survival bant and the rock and reanimate. ( this should work very fine, but has no counterspells, but will use cabal therapy)


or


Make a faster build with tons of discard and a whole lot of reanimate spells. ( like 10 mainboard and +4 s&t sideboard)


So far testing for a faster build is inconsistent enough to be taken to a tourney, nonetheless no losses so far. ( it is still mws that worries me a lot)

[Aleksandr]

With Ideas Unbound I'd use Deep Anal.

[RexFTW]

This thread's idiocy makes me cry.


Isnt this about the same level of idiocy in every thread?

[practical joke]

it's exceptionally high in this one at some times.

This thread is for useful additions to the deck, not for digging up old news that has been discussed 20 pages ago.

[RexFTW]

I see a lot of deck lists online that run It That Betrays. Why run this guy? The explanation almost always says "its not good in this matchup, but it is amazing in others".

I dont see many decks that sacrafice their own permanents (YES I GET TO TAKE YOUR CURSECATCHER!) outside of annihilator. Perhaps it is for the 11/11 body and Annihilator 2.

[menace13]

I see a lot of deck lists online that run It That Betrays. Why run this guy? The explanation almost always says "its not good in this matchup, but it is amazing in others".

I dont see many decks that sacrafice their own permanents (YES I GET TO TAKE YOUR CURSECATCHER!) outside of annihilator. Perhaps it is for the 11/11 body and Annihilator 2.

Bad Slot, imo anyway. I can not see it being better in any MU than the dudes we have already. It can't be a good meta call(currently Zoo-mostly Naya Sligh-, Landstills mainly), like i would rather have Steel Wind or Inkwell respectively befor i plopped that thing on the field. Don't pay too much attention to everyone's list online, UW ext 63 card lark and the horrid Animator list i posted a page back are proof that lotta luck and good pairings are not that rare. Even more so when all they have to do is go 3-1 swiss.

[whienot]

It That Betrays is stupid good against Stax and Lands. I don't necessarily think it's the best use of the slot, but I also hate playing Archon main. Archon is only good in a few matchups, like It That Betrays.

[RexFTW]

Archon is a good "Oh #$% im about to lose" last ditch effort creature in any matchup. IMO.

[practical joke]

yes, and it wins mainboard matches singlehandedly against:

aggro-elves/surv elves
Merfolk ( new lists will rarely support bounce)
Ichorid

also a decent second/last resort against:

Zoo,
surv bant,
bant aggro,
new horizons,
an exploded empty the warrens
and a whole lot of other creature decks

[whienot]

This thread is for useful additions to the deck, not for digging up old news that has been discussed 20 pages ago.

Speaking of..... I am well aware of Archon's uses, and I will continue to play it because of them. But, I have never loved it.

Moving on. Post rotation sideboards, post em.

3x Pithing Needle
3x Extirpate
2x LDV
2x Show and Tell
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Echoing Truth
2x Krosan Grip

[RexFTW]

new reanimator articla on SCG Premium:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/19642_One_Step_Ahead_Scrubbing_in_St_Louis.html

[Exodia3030]

Hi guys, I'm very new to this, i have never played any legacy, and i have a lot to learn about magic.
These B/U Reanimator decks seem very fast, and it seems that you just chuck what is best for the situation right at your opponent, but being such a quick deck it can be hard to see what is coming. Due to the life loss of some of the reanimation effects, once you creatures get taken out (if at all) there doesn't seem to be any backup. Iona costs 9 life if using reanimate, and more if you have just fetched for a land. Has anyone found a way around all this life loss, or is life loss not such a big deal for this deck?
I have been trying to find a way of reducing the life loss purely as a backup plan, and i have found nothing, the closest i have come is only slightly reducing the cost by reanimating a Karmic Guide for 5 life which can then reanimate another more costly creature for less life.
I am unsure how practical it will be in a competitive environment, I'm also unsure if there are any cards similar in ability to Karmic Guide.

[menace13]

Hi guys, I'm very new to this, i have never played any legacy, and i have a lot to learn about magic.
These B/U Reanimator decks seem very fast, and it seems that you just chuck what is best for the situation right at your opponent, but being such a quick deck it can be hard to see what is coming. Due to the life loss of some of the reanimation effects, once you creatures get taken out (if at all) there doesn't seem to be any backup. Iona costs 9 life if using reanimate, and more if you have just fetched for a land. Has anyone found a way around all this life loss, or is life loss not such a big deal for this deck?
I have been trying to find a way of reducing the life loss purely as a backup plan, and i have found nothing, the closest i have come is only slightly reducing the cost by reanimating a Karmic Guide for 5 life which can then reanimate another more costly creature for less life.
I am unsure how practical it will be in a competitive environment, I'm also unsure if there are any cards similar in ability to Karmic Guide.

Hi and welcome. Animator just got hit really, really hard in losing Mustical Tutor and we are watching to see what direction it will take. The lifeloss is critical it has to be calculated into your math(what's on the field, in hand, what you think he is trying to set up,etc) then you can go grab your beatstick. You will want to try get Exhume if the field is cluttered and you're going to race as long as you don't Exhume something of the opponent's that will screw the math.

Animate Dead helps with the life and in mirror, could be good to bring in g2 or 3(might even be in main deck now). There is a Phyrexian Delver, but it costs life. The problem would be doing this Off of a single Entomb or having both Target and Guide off Study. Buried Alive could do it. I don't see this as being feasible.

[Exodia3030]

Thanks :)

Is Vampiric Tutor a feasible replacement for the Mystic Tutor, it seems to me its the same card except the 2 life that would be lost ?

[menace13]

Pfftt would be like old ext-those were some fun animator decks, Entomb was banned then, play crazy sb full of singelton anything not just limited to inst/sor. It is banned. Full Legacy ban list here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

[Exodia3030]

Oh if course it is, that would be to easy wouldn't it :(

[RexFTW]

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID28353/images/M11_Grave_Titan.jpg

Actually this guy may be the answer we have been looking for to stop gobbos. He is just about immune to warren weirding because he brings friends, and every time he attacks he makes new friends to block gobbos with.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm more impressed by the fact that such a good creature can be hard cast on occasion, and doesn't cost you all that much life to Reanimate. But he dies to StP/PtE. Inkwell and Iona are so strong because they don't.

He would be competing with Blazing Archon (useful against the same matchups), however, Blazing Archon flies overhead where as this can be chumpblocked. :(

[whienot]

Went undefeated at my local event tonight. R.I.P. Mystical Tutor, you've won me many games. It turns out, Mystical for FoW (with no other blue cards) is one of the greatest mind tricks that can no longer be used.

[JonBarber]

I remember one game I reanimated my oppenents loyal retainers and then used it to return Iona. Twas pretty funny.

[RexFTW]

I'm more impressed by the fact that such a good creature can be hard cast on occasion, and doesn't cost you all that much life to Reanimate. But he dies to StP/PtE. Inkwell and Iona are so strong because they don't.


The reason to use him is that he cannot be (reasonably) edicted. Goblins play edicts as their only removal. They have no swords.

[DragoFireheart]

The reason to use him is that he cannot be (reasonably) edicted. Goblins play edicts as their only removal. They have no swords.

Goblins loses to Zoo, which is the dominate deck at the moment.

We should focus on how we are going to fight Zoo, not goblins.

[Jon Stewart]

The reason to use him is that he cannot be (reasonably) edicted. Goblins play edicts as their only removal. They have no swords.

That's a good point. Though to be fair, he can be killed with a Gempalm Incinerator which every goblin deck I've ever faced ran as a four of. But nevertheless, he is undoubtedly strong against Goblins especially if he comes out early enough.

[RexFTW]

yeah he definitely needs to get out there fast. If your taking a while your likely to be dead anyway. (vs goblins)


Goblins loses to Zoo, which is the dominate deck at the moment.

We should focus on how we are going to fight Zoo, not goblins.
this deck crushes zoo. or did you not get the memo?

[videogamer99]

m currently playing Zoo and hating it. I loved ANT and was fond of Reanimator. I would like to play Reanimator, but I am unsure of the list to play due to the lack of Mystical Tutor. This is what I believe is the best version of this build.

Creatures
2 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Terastodon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Show and Tell

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Spell Pierce
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perish

What do you guys think?

[Tokobotenkai]

@Videogamer99: I'm in favor of the LDV build (I prefer the more comboish method vs the controllish/rock ideas) but any justification of why is it the best build?

[videogamer99]

@Videogamer99: I'm in favor of the LDV build (I prefer the more comboish method vs the controllish/rock ideas) but any justification of why is it the best build?

Im unsure if it is the optimal build, but it is good for my play style. It remains very similar to the build pre-Mystical banning. LDV is very strong. It is almost as powerful as it was before. UB is better than the inconsistent G splash. Sideboard may need more dedicated to Zoo and Aggro. Maybe Propaganda or Hydroblast. The only thing that Im not sure about is that I am not sold on the Show and Tells.

[Jon Stewart]

LDV is very strong. It is almost as powerful as it was before.

That's a bit of a stretch imo. LDV is no where near as powerful as Mystical Tutor.

You are paying life (which sucks with Reanimates) and also limiting your tutoring to turn 2.

A turn one Mystical Tutor for Entomb, turn two Entomb + Reanimate is a decent play.

A turn two LDV for Entomb, lose ~3 life, turn three Entomb + Reanimate is no where near as strong.

You are effectively expending three mana, three life, two cards and one turn just to get a creature into your graveyard.

This is why I vastly prefer Ideas Unbound. For two mana, one card, you get a creature into your yard that same turn and here's the clincher, you also get to dig three cards deeper. This effectively increases your odds of drawing into a Reanimate or Exhume that you can then use to Reanimate that creature by 40%! It also increases your odds of drawing into that Daze or Thoughtseize you need to ensure that you combo out.

And while it doesn't seem as such on the surface, Ideas Unbound provides great card advantage. This is because you likely have some useless cards like additonal Careful Study, Entomb and such that you can discard, along with the Iona, cards that you never would have cast anyways. So you are effectively trading three cards that you will never hardcast the whole game, for three cards that greatly improve your deck's effectiveness.

What the best build is, is dependent on what you're going for...

If you expect to see a lot of maindeck hate even after this banning, maindeck Show and Tell isn't a bad option.

If you expect to see little maindeck hate, you probably want to maximize speed, consistency and efficency to plow through countermagic and discard without getting phased. The key to that approach is to have such quick and easy access to additional Reanimate effects that your Exhume/Reanimate getting discarded or countered, or your Inkwell getting Edicted doesn't phase you for anything more than half a turn. Something like this...



What do you think of this as a starting point?

Spells
4 Daze
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
2 Life/Death
4 Entomb
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Ideas Unbound

Creatures
4 Iona
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon

Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard Options to deal with the only hate this deck is exceedingly vulnerable to (enchantments that shut down your yard)
Show and Tell
Echoing Truth
Dryad Arbor
Emerald Charm
Tranquil Domain
Reverent Silence

This likewise allows the deck to run effectively 14 Reanimates, 13 Creatures (Counting Entomb) and 13 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb, Ideas Unbound & Thoughtseize), 7 Disruption Spells and 11 Cantrips all in a curve that stops at two . This works quite out well because Thoughtseize is a card that you would prefer not to have to use as a discard outlet anyways.

[Tokobotenkai]

Im unsure if it is the optimal build, but it is good for my play style. It remains very similar to the build pre-Mystical banning. LDV is very strong. It is almost as powerful as it was before. UB is better than the inconsistent G splash. Sideboard may need more dedicated to Zoo and Aggro. Maybe Propaganda or Hydroblast. The only thing that Im not sure about is that I am not sold on the Show and Tells.

What's green splash for? I only run them (a singleton bayou) for grips and/or claims.

[videogamer99]

What's green splash for? I only run them (a singleton bayou) for grips and/or claims.

Yeah. Thats usually it. Some people have been splashing G for Goyf

[whienot]

UB is better than the inconsistent G splash.

Saying the green splash is inconsistant is wrong. A little worse against Stifle/Waste, sure, but it is just as consistent.

The more testing I've done, the more I dislike any of the 2cc spells. Ideas Unbound showed promise, but UU is really annoying, especially in matchups where you need to fetch basics. Peer Through Depths is under consideration, but I might as well grab what I want with LDV. At least PtD puts the card in my hand. Revealing the card sucks, but occasionally you can mind trick an opponent by revealing a FoW.

Currently, I'm running Ponder to good results and have 2/3 slots to settle on.

[videogamer99]

Im trying a slightly different build. Im kinda broke and LDV is now at 7 bucks a pop. If I can get them, Ill run them, but if I cant, Ill run this;
Creatures
2 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Terastodon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Echoing Truth
3 Perish
3 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus