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rodgon666
02-11-2008, 07:02 AM
B/U Reanimator

Introduction to reanimator style decks, The bad... and the not so bad

Big, huge, enormous critters and very cheap spells to bring them to life, that my friends is the basis and basics of all reanimator decks.
To this point in legacy history the only true competition Reanimator deck to have had an absolute control of the format was a little deck called Dragon. The format was changed so much and the deck was so devastating to the format that the cards were soon banned. A true bummer for every single reanimation mage out there...

From that point on there has been a complete lack of all reanimation style decks in the classification of competitive decks to beat. Being fun, easy and entertaining to play as well as very inexpensive to build has made these decks into a casual players wet dream, and also due to this fact a serious lack of testing and concise evolution of a deck just for winning's sake has been neglected. I hoped to change this little fact.

I dont feel like im the only one that has made a big jump with the reanimator style decks, in fact there are several decks that have made it to a very good placing in tournaments besides from mine, one is Orlove's Reanimator which uses Zombie infestations in conjunction with Squees to generate a secondary win condition to the usual reanimation of an Akroma angel of wrath or Spirit of the night. It has also proven itself yet i find the deck to be lacking some power, and consistency.

Decks like Cephalid Breakfast also dwell into reanimation, yet it just doesnt feel like a true reanimation deck, relying on just one reanimation spell and one creature to win the game is just too much of a combo then a deck approach.

In the process of making a deck that would be competitive enough to win tournaments and consistent enough for people to consider as a contender i have tested countless variations and with all the different colors of the magic spectrum.
here is the link to the B/g variation that won me the 5th place at the mana leak open a while ago:

B/g reanimator by Rodrigo Gonzalez
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5670&highlight=reanimator

as you can see, it even though it placed very well along with yet another reanimator deck, it was still classified as me being lucky or as my pet deck that wasnt that good.

ok so from that point on and after winning countless tournaments with that version in San Diegos Game Empire ( that i believe holds some of the biggest tournaments in a weekly basis in the west coast) i decided to leave that version be and move on to what i eventually found to be the stronger color splash B/U.

here is the most rescent decklist that i have improved on thanks to alot of the people here in The Source and to my fellow team mates. ill make sure to explain each and every one of the card choices and any substitutions you could use with effective results. Also a very long list of why some cards are bad and why some cards dont work at all in this deck.

cards with a * may be subed out with some cards. Read the explanation section to see what they could be.

B/u Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal*

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
3x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
2x Bringer of the Blue dawn*

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard:

3x Pithing needle*
2x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
2x Show and tell

The Basics – Mandatory Cards

Mandatory Critters

DISCARD ENABLERS:

Putrid Imp: He is the most efficient creature based discard at the cheapest cost. Allows the deck to go aggro and beat for some points when necessary, very efficient as a stall tactic.
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Oona's Prowler: Second best creature to have on your side for a discard outlet, 3/1 flyer for just 2 is incredible, allows the deck to beat for the win rather than just rely on reanimation, also works as slight disruption but definitely not used for that. Can be a double edged sword with exhume yet the drawback of this is very minor.
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THE FATTIES:

*Bogardan Hellkite: these creatures make the deck competitive, without these the deck slows down alot. being able to deal 5 damage to the opponent or his creatures is a game breaker, even after he gets sword's he dealt a minimum of 5 damage. flying for evasion is only icing on the cake.
Alot of creatures have been used in the past instead of the hellkites for creature control:
*Crater hellion: unpayable echo makes this a no go. no damage to opponent.

*Magma Giant: just not enough power to make the cut, pyroclasm at best, damages you too.

*Thunder Dragon: he would be the next best creature to put in. yet only 3 damage to non flyers makes it good but not amazing.

all of these fall short of the Bogardan Hellkites, thus shouldn't be considered. also i have found that the dragons themselves serve as enough creature control that more creature damage critters are not needed.
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*Tidespout Tyrant: This creature along with all your deck costing mostly 1-2 mana makes for your ability to lock out opponents if got out early, with if not answered on turn 2 it makes for a soft lock on opponents side of the board. Also the interaction with animate dead and any of your coming into play ability creatures makes him a very good stall breaker and being able to win games out of your ass.
a 5/5 flyer isnt too shabby of a creature either.
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*Simic Sky Swallower: 6/6 flying untargetable trampler. if you get this against a control player, no wait, any player, they will not be bale to get rid of him easily, you will often ride his back to victory. he has no coming into play ability and has no haste, thus making him quite slow, but his ability to survive pretty much all the best removal in the competive decks to beat makes him worth playing.
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*Sundering Titan: 7/10 with no trample might seem very slow. yet his coming into play ability is often a game breaker against the highest competitive decks to beat ( landstill of any color variations, Thresh of any color variations, and pretty much anything that relies on multicolor mana bases)
You might wonder why run this creature if i myself run a multicolor mana base, well the answer is simple, i will never loose more than 1 land to his coming into play ability ( and 1 to his leaving play as well). since you get to choose what lands to destroy you can choose one of your duals as a Swamp and an Island. and yes that works. will not often win the games by itself but will enable you to control the game from his appearance on.
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*Akroma, Angel of Wrath: One of the biggest issues that have been brought to my attention have been the fact that i only have 1 akroma in the deck. with her being as powerful as she is why dont i just run 4? simple. Akroma is only good by herself, in multiples she sucks. Yeah she is one of the most powerful critters to be printed to date, yet having more than one doesnt end the game any quicker, so one is more than enough. but she is also vulnerable to swords, so in this regard the dragons are superior. and even more, she cant be brought back with 1/3 of your reanimation suite, animate dead and her are a no go once again.
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*Phantom Nishoba: 7/7 trampler with lifelink. This guy will win you most aggro races. Bieng semi indestructable gives you a great edge in stall situations often breaking them into your favour. Its very easy to ride his back to victory, and you also loose quite a bit of life in this deck and it facilitates the reanimation of additional creatures.
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*2xBringer of the Blue dawn*: Ok this here will seem like a very weird choice of card selections. Compared to the other creatures he seems very weak. yet his ability often wins you the games more times than even akroma. If he isnt answered you will gain so much card advantage that it will make it near impossible for your opponent to win, even if he counters a bunch of your cards. thus he is in the deck as a 2 of. As only a 5/5 trampler with no real evasion ability he will not often end the games but he will definitely bring out the guys that do very fast.
like i also mentioned before, if i had to decide to make a slot a metagame slot it would have to be one of these.
Some cards that could replace one of the bringers ( because i wouldnt take out both) would be:

*Garza Zol, Plague Queen: Haste 5/5 flyer with card advantage engine. definitely worth the spot as a replacement card engine, i would use her if the metagame was more of an aggro based metagame.

*Tombstalker: amazing in a deck that relies so much on a graveyard, he is good as a surprise! and people will not see him coming at all. 5/5 flyer is good, yet most of the time you will want to see him after turn 3. You will always feel a little ashamed of reanimating him. I had him as a one of in the deck before i found out the power of the bringer. Intuition for him and two reanimation spells and you have an almost guaranteed critter next turn.

*Symbiotic Wurm: ok, this is another critter that alot of people will dismiss in a deck with no sacrifice outlets ( ill explain why cabal therapy is not here) but he is very very good in metagames with alot of stax and black white aggro or control decks.
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Other creatures that after being tested have produced very little good results and thus should not be considered and hopefully more explanation for their non inclusion will not be necessary:

*Angel of Despair: used to be in the deck yet it fell short in oh so many ways... the creature was mostly used as a bad vindicate that costs you 7 life and hardly ever wins or does a game altering effect, without a way to constantly re use him he isnt all that good. (-recurring nightmare will be explained later too).

*Blazing Archon: i have tried him before and this is mostly what happens:

1-you end up paying 9 life against aggro to bring him out in play to loose him to eddict, gempalm incinerator or any kind of target removal of the sorts before it deals any damage or alters the game at all.

2-if you get him against landstill, or any control or combo, his just a 5/6 with no haste that has no synergy with the rest of the deck to make an impression or give you a chance to race them.

3-your aggro matchup is already amazing, other than ichorid combo ( which is combo more than aggro ) and for that you have cards after side board, which help against the deck more, plus unless you have 4 you will almost never see it before they go onlie and kill you. ( see TES and Belcher matchup results).

so he is not as good in play as he is on paper.

*Gigapede: he needs a discard outlet in order to be a discard outlet, and not powerful or evasive at all.

*Undead Gladiator: certainly an uncounterable discard outlet yet too slow and not as good of a card drawing engine. EX:

You would have to wait till turn two to cycle and then pay 1b to bring him back and discard the third turn and then hope to have a reanimate instead of a two mana reanimation spell to even be able to reanimate a creature that same turn, let alone have a third land. making it slow, very slow.

*Kokusho, the Evening Star: hardcastable and also a pretty efficient creature. only thing about this creature that is bad is that in order for it to deal its damage instantaneously you would have to have a cabal therapy to sac it too. Swords to plowshares is still the biggest creature hoser and by not being able to deal the damage right away it makes the creature a dead play.

*Uyo, Silent Prophet: this creature would be really good if it was cheaper and didnt have to be reanimated in the first place. yeah it could make a difference but you only want to see him if you have a lot of lands in play to be able to return them and then play a spell. its too slow.

*Platinum Angel: i guess this could be your only out against decks like SI and Belcher... yet they probably will kill you before it comes down. interesting in multiples and makes it difficult to get beat or loose if more than one hit play, but not strong enough to warrant a maindeck slot.

*Duplicant: i had this guy in my B/G reanimator deck and also my B/R version, but only because i had recurring nightmare in them, and not having blue makes it so you have to make the most use of your creatures, if you were able to re use him alot it would be good, but you already have an amazing game against aggro, so im sure you dont need him anyways.

*Reya Dawnbringer: by herself she isnt that great. yeah free reanimation everyturn is great, no ... its amazing, but the fact is, if your playing against a deck that cant deal with her... you were going to win anyways. its a win more card with little effect in the ultimate outcome of the game.

*Dragon Mage: you do not want to fill your opponents hands with cards, even if its a simetrical draw. if they didnt have an answer for him when he first hit, odds are they will draw into it and be able to get back in the game with a full set of fuel.

*Volraths Shapeshifter: Interesting card, i noticed its not good enough of a beater and discard outlet. Thing i saw were that it would never turn into a creature after carefull study or intuition, since the cards you discard and search for go underneath it in the graveyard after resolution.

*Dimir Doppelganger: you dont want to remove your creatures from your yard. sorry but this is a nono.

*Bringer of the White Dawn: unless your going for a combo kill or have a ton of sundering titans in the yard and a way to sac them. no need for him.

*Spirit monger: good creature yet theres better ones in the deck already, plus it doesnt win the game by itself at all...

*RAZIA: was good in testing, yet not better than anything setup. Fulfills the same roll as akroma, but not as good. thus it didnt make the cut.

*Kuro Pitlord: horrible, not being ale to reanimate him till turn 4 or later is BAAAAAAAD! very bad! also the loss of life is not going to save you. pay 5-6 life to kill one goyf... nah, its not worth it.

*Nullstone Gargoyle: is not that good because it only eliminates one card and that isn't backbreaking to most decks. In his case, might as well run a Platinum Angel.( see platinum angel).

*Verdant Force: not fast enough creature generation, descent but just not there.

*Mindleech Mass: Suffers from the same problems as blazing Archon, good on paper, yet not so good in play. one hit does not spell game over and he gets worse as the game gets longer in turns.
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please if you have questions on any other creature ill answer your curiosity odds are i have tested it.
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rodgon666
02-11-2008, 07:05 AM
Mandatory Reanimation Spells

* Reanimate: Best reanimation spell ever. just one mana to cast and the life loss is irrelevant in most cases. auto 4 of in any reanimation deck.
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*Exhume: Second best reanimation spell ever printed, 1B to get any creature back, no life loss and more often than not your opponent will not get anything in play or they will get a creature that has no relevance in the game after you get your in. If you exhume a dragon you can kill their creature with its coming into play ability if you need it dead. Gets around tormods crypt and extirpate if you have a discard creature and another creature in hand EX:

just remember exhume doesnt target until resolved. so if they get rid of your yard before... just dsicard one more fatty after their effect resolves and with exhume still on the stack, since priority goes back to you even if you already passed it before the crypt trigger. And taaadaaa! you have it in play.
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*Animate Dead: Third best reanimation spell printed. the -1 power and being able to loose it to a deed or disentchant make it worse than exhume and reanimate by alot of levels yet its better than other options out there. Also being able to take opponents creatures as well as the interaction with repel and the Tidesprout Tyrant make it even better.
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There are alot of reanimation spells in the game of magic. It really sucks that most of the best reanimation spells are old classics, and there hasnt been any good ones printed in years. here is a list of some that have the potential to be played in legacy, yet not any better than the ones i already have listed.

*Life and Death: Having 2 reanimation spells that make you loose life will often result in so much lie loss youll be easy to pick off. Incredibly worse than animate dead and exhume. Not good enough to be included.

*Stitch Together: not good. you have almost not way to achieve turn 2 threshhold or a consistent turn 3. if it didnt require it it would be there instead of animate dead, but its not so its not.

*Recurring Nightmare: is at least on paper an amazing card to play in this deck. i have tested it and unfortunately discovered that at 3 mana it is slow in alot of situations. its not bad, yet its a kill more card. you do leave yourself open to losing to a random stifle.

* Zombify, and any reanimation spell with a cost higher than 2 are too slow.
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Spells/ Draw/ Additional discard---Synergy core if the deck.

Its obvious that any reanimation deck has to have more than just huge fatties and efficient reanimation spells in order to win games. In order for this deck, in fact any deck to have any chance to be competitive it needs the proper spells to help it succeed in its struggle.

these are the spells i have found till recently that have the best synergy and efficiency with this particular deck.

*Careful Study: Single handily the best synergy card in the deck, allows you to dig for combo pieces ( reanimator decks are considered combo by the way) while replacing your creatures in hand with reanimation spells and other goodies. and for just 1 blue mana its both a discard outlet and a draw engine.
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*Intuition: This spot used to be buried alive. but being instant speed and being able to fetch creatures and spells make it infinitely better than buried alive. The best search engine card for the deck.
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*3x Brainstorm: Only 3 brainstorms since its only the secondary draw card, it only fulfills one duty and is good in conjunction with the 8 fetchlands. but there is no space for one more.
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*Repeal*: This card is essential to the decks consistency. You often run across main deck problematic cards that cant be dealt with with your creatures. this also buys you time and digs for cards you need. buys tempo for your deck. other cards used and efficient in this slot are Echoing truth, and Chain vapors ( both of which in my own opinion are inferior to repeal just die to the card drawing).
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Other Spells not included due to inefficiency and lack of synergy:

*Cabal Therapy: good card in the deck yet not really as necessary as people might think, the deck is meant to be played as an aggressive deck, if your trying to spend your initial turns maybe, perhaps getting some cards out of your opponents hands then your probably going to loose. first turns are always meant to get your discard outlets active and ready to go, and using this on yourself is a horrible way to waste this cards intended use.

*Dark Ritual: a two color deck does not want this card, you only get a boost out of it about 50% of the time you draw it in your opening hand. which might not seem like something bad, yet the boost you might get sometime is often not necesery to win any games. you eliminate some speed in order to add consistency of the deck.

*Attunment: this would be good if you had alot of flashback spells. as a search spell its good and its not that bad as a discard outlet as well, yet you want to be able to selectively discard your cards not most of you hand. as a top deck its pointless. ( same could be said about careful study, yet that one only costs one not 3)

*Recall: 3 for one card, 5 for 2. not bad, its a little like a witness for blue. you would never want to see in your opening hand though. and without it in multiples its not worth it.


*Forbid: you dont need to have control elements like counters, i would consider daze since its free and protects your initial turns, not forbid though, most of your mana and turns should be spent searching and reanimating, and to protect a reanimation spell you would need 5 mana, as a discard outlet its not that great.

*Last Rites: not a bad card against combo, slow combo. almost any other deck your not worried about what they play enough to try to get it from their hands, instead of maybe swords or counters.

*False Memories: fun card! i would love this in ichorid, but as a creature tutor it not as efficient. you want your cards that search to be able to be as flexible as possible and as you have it right now you have some of the most effective tutors for a deck in this style. brainstorm is the nuts... carefull study is both draw and discard, and intuition is just too flexible. on the other hand if you had alot of flashback cards it would be good, but this is not really the deck or this card.

*Sickening Dreams: this is also a very good card to add to the deck, you could easily switch these for the oonas prowlers. this create an undisruptable way of discarding ( since the discard is as an additional cost to the mana payed for the spell) as well as an additional source of burn and damage. i used to have these in the B/G and B/R versions of the deck, and if you decide to go with either these or the oonas prowlers its completely a metagame call. if you have alot of aggro go for the dreams, if you have alot of aggro control go for the oonas.

*Insidious Dreams: too expensive, it would be amazing at 3. but 4 is too much

*Possessed Portal: hahaha really? common its 8 mana... hahaha its would be a late late late late late game card, if you want some disrution of the sort throw in braids cabal minion, nice recurring interaction and disruption of opponents strategy. not an optimal choice though.

*Lotus Petal: look at what i said about dark ritual, the cards boost is not worth the consistency of the later game.

*Hurkyl's Recall: im guessing this is to bounce cards like needle and also crypts... thats what repeal is for and it draws you a card.


*Wheel and Deal: in megrim deck perhaps... but you never want to give an opponent 7 fresh cards... you never do. unless you have some way of doing something in which it helps you more than them. maybe in legacy owling mine? ( do i hear a contest deck winner here? hahaha)

*Diamond Valley: its good if you have it... but irrelevant if you dont. never a good card to have in you opening hands, if it produced mana maybe... yet not even worth the investment. very conditional and useless unless you have multiples to draw it when you need it ( turns 2 or 3 and odds are you only want it turn 3 and if you dont use it turn 3 your critter is gone with the swords before you untap anyways.)
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Lands

the decks manabase is geared around getting a dual land turn 1 or 2. only 19 lands are ok since your spells cost 2 or 1 with exception of intuitions. removing as much land from the deck with 8 fetchlands and having some basics in case of a blood moon or anything of the sorts is good to have given the situation.
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Side Board


*Echoing Truth: are against combo like TES or anything with a lot of token generation. extra bounce against decks you need it.

*Repeal: against small aggro, white weenie, suicide black, or if you fear crypt.

*Show and Tell: against black aggro control or stuff such as shuffle truffle style decks, or landstill

*Stifle: is also against combo and yet its so versatile that i side it in against alot more than that.

*Pithing Needle*** Strictly a metagame slot. you choose. need to find something very good.

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Any percentages i post up are irrelevant, instead ill just describe what matchups are good and why their good and the bad and why as well.

Matchups agaisnt the major decks are as follows:

CONTROL:

Landstill:
In your favor. the only version that gives you any problems is the four color variation with edicts and spell snares main. Other version are simple to beat.
Side In: Stifles

The Rock:
Pretty much a Bye. you have soo much time its hard for them to deal with your critters fast enough, Sundering titan is MVP in this MU.
Side In: Echoing Truth.



AGGRO CONTROL:

U/G/b and U/G/r:
Incredibly in your favor, they also give you massive amount of time and without swords to deal with your fatties they cant stop you.

U/G/w:
swords makes this matchup slightly more disadvantageous than the other versions of thresh. Yet its still pretty good, id say very slightly in your favor.
MVP: Sky Swallower and Sundering Titan.

Survival:
Even. Unless you get control of the game early you will loose in tempo. you can still get the game under control later in the game but it really depends on who gets the upper hand first.
MVP: Hellkites.

Dragon Stompy:
Slightly unfavorable. this deck is also very explosive and if they get a turn 1 mage it ruins you game play. it doesnt lock you out but its not very good for you without having almost any basics. Chalice 1 or 2 hurts alot, but trinisphere isnt a gamebreaker.

AGGRO:

Vial Goblins:
Pretty much auto win. very close to a bye. If the opposing goblin deck has a white splash it still in your favor.
MVP: all.

Dead Guy ale:
Even. This decks disruption is very annoying. After play testing i have found that dealing with more than 1 creature is very hard for them before you kill them. but then again if you run into their disruption very early the tempo goes in their favor, not drastically but it shifts.
MVP: Sundering Titan, Skyswallower

COMBO:

Ichorid:
Unfavorable. they are very fast, you can still race them, yet if they have the god hand your gonna loose. at least game 1. after sideboard you have a much better chance.
Side In: Stifle, echoing truth
MVP: ???
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that was long.....

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 07:44 AM
I just realized i could post this here too. since i meet the time i started the thread and it should meet the unique criteria.
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B/U Reanimator

Introduction to reanimator style decks, The bad... and the not so bad

Big, huge, enormous critters and very cheap spells to bring them to life, that my friends is the basis and basics of all reanimator decks.
To this point in legacy history the only true competition Reanimator deck to have had an absolute control of the format was a little deck called Dragon. The format was changed so much and the deck was so devastating to the format that the cards were soon banned. A true bummer for every single reanimation mage out there...

From that point on there has been a complete lack of all reanimation style decks in the classification of competitive decks to beat. Being fun, easy and entertaining to play as well as very inexpensive to build has made these decks into a casual players wet dream, and also due to this fact a serious lack of testing and concise evolution of a deck just for winning's sake has been neglected. I hoped to change this little fact.

I dont feel like im the only one that has made a big jump with the reanimator style decks, in fact there are several decks that have made it to a very good placing in tournaments besides from mine, one is Orlove's Reanimator which uses Zombie infestations in conjunction with Squees to generate a secondary win condition to the usual reanimation of an Akroma angel of wrath or Spirit of the night. It has also proven itself yet i find the deck to be lacking some power, and consistency.

Decks like Cephalid Breakfast also dwell into reanimation, yet it just doesnt feel like a true reanimation deck, relying on just one reanimation spell and one creature to win the game is just too much of a combo then a deck approach.

In the process of making a deck that would be competitive enough to win tournaments and consistent enough for people to consider as a contender i have tested countless variations and with all the different colors of the magic spectrum.
here is the link to the B/g variation that won me the 5th place at the mana leak open a while ago:

B/g reanimator by Rodrigo Gonzalez
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5670&highlight=reanimator

as you can see, it even though it placed very well along with yet another reanimator deck, it was still classified as me being lucky or as my pet deck that wasnt that good.

ok so from that point on and after winning countless tournaments with that version in San Diegos Game Empire ( that i believe holds some of the biggest tournaments in a weekly basis in the west coast) i decided to leave that version be and move on to what i eventually found to be the stronger color splash B/U.

here is the most rescent decklist that i have improved on thanks to alot of the people here in The Source and to my fellow team mates. ill make sure to explain each and every one of the card choices and any substitutions you could use with effective results. Also a very long list of why some cards are bad and why some cards dont work at all in this deck.

cards with a * may be subed out with some cards. Read the explanation section to see what they could be.

B/u Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal*

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
3x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
2x Bringer of the Blue dawn*

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard:

3x Pithing needle*
2x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
2x Show and tell

The Basics – Mandatory Cards

Mandatory Critters

DISCARD ENABLERS:

Putrid Imp: He is the most efficient creature based discard at the cheapest cost. Allows the deck to go aggro and beat for some points when necessary, very efficient as a stall tactic.
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Oona's Prowler: Second best creature to have on your side for a discard outlet, 3/1 flyer for just 2 is incredible, allows the deck to beat for the win rather than just rely on reanimation, also works as slight disruption but definitely not used for that. Can be a double edged sword with exhume yet the drawback of this is very minor.
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THE FATTIES:

*Bogardan Hellkite: these creatures make the deck competitive, without these the deck slows down alot. being able to deal 5 damage to the opponent or his creatures is a game breaker, even after he gets sword's he dealt a minimum of 5 damage. flying for evasion is only icing on the cake.
Alot of creatures have been used in the past instead of the hellkites for creature control:
*Crater hellion: unpayable echo makes this a no go. no damage to opponent.

*Magma Giant: just not enough power to make the cut, pyroclasm at best, damages you too.

*Thunder Dragon: he would be the next best creature to put in. yet only 3 damage to non flyers makes it good but not amazing.

all of these fall short of the Bogardan Hellkites, thus shouldn't be considered. also i have found that the dragons themselves serve as enough creature control that more creature damage critters are not needed.
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*Tidespout Tyrant: This creature along with all your deck costing mostly 1-2 mana makes for your ability to lock out opponents if got out early, with if not answered on turn 2 it makes for a soft lock on opponents side of the board. Also the interaction with animate dead and any of your coming into play ability creatures makes him a very good stall breaker and being able to win games out of your ass.
a 5/5 flyer isnt too shabby of a creature either.
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*Simic Sky Swallower: 6/6 flying untargetable trampler. if you get this against a control player, no wait, any player, they will not be bale to get rid of him easily, you will often ride his back to victory. he has no coming into play ability and has no haste, thus making him quite slow, but his ability to survive pretty much all the best removal in the competive decks to beat makes him worth playing.
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*Sundering Titan: 7/10 with no trample might seem very slow. yet his coming into play ability is often a game breaker against the highest competitive decks to beat ( landstill of any color variations, Thresh of any color variations, and pretty much anything that relies on multicolor mana bases)
You might wonder why run this creature if i myself run a multicolor mana base, well the answer is simple, i will never loose more than 1 land to his coming into play ability ( and 1 to his leaving play as well). since you get to choose what lands to destroy you can choose one of your duals as a Swamp and an Island. and yes that works. will not often win the games by itself but will enable you to control the game from his appearance on.
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*Akroma, Angel of Wrath: One of the biggest issues that have been brought to my attention have been the fact that i only have 1 akroma in the deck. with her being as powerful as she is why dont i just run 4? simple. Akroma is only good by herself, in multiples she sucks. Yeah she is one of the most powerful critters to be printed to date, yet having more than one doesnt end the game any quicker, so one is more than enough. but she is also vulnerable to swords, so in this regard the dragons are superior. and even more, she cant be brought back with 1/3 of your reanimation suite, animate dead and her are a no go once again.
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*Phantom Nishoba: 7/7 trampler with lifelink. This guy will win you most aggro races. Bieng semi indestructable gives you a great edge in stall situations often breaking them into your favour. Its very easy to ride his back to victory, and you also loose quite a bit of life in this deck and it facilitates the reanimation of additional creatures.
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*2xBringer of the Blue dawn*: Ok this here will seem like a very weird choice of card selections. Compared to the other creatures he seems very weak. yet his ability often wins you the games more times than even akroma. If he isnt answered you will gain so much card advantage that it will make it near impossible for your opponent to win, even if he counters a bunch of your cards. thus he is in the deck as a 2 of. As only a 5/5 trampler with no real evasion ability he will not often end the games but he will definitely bring out the guys that do very fast.
like i also mentioned before, if i had to decide to make a slot a metagame slot it would have to be one of these.
Some cards that could replace one of the bringers ( because i wouldnt take out both) would be:

*Garza Zol, Plague Queen: Haste 5/5 flyer with card advantage engine. definitely worth the spot as a replacement card engine, i would use her if the metagame was more of an aggro based metagame.

*Tombstalker: amazing in a deck that relies so much on a graveyard, he is good as a surprise! and people will not see him coming at all. 5/5 flyer is good, yet most of the time you will want to see him after turn 3. You will always feel a little ashamed of reanimating him. I had him as a one of in the deck before i found out the power of the bringer. Intuition for him and two reanimation spells and you have an almost guaranteed critter next turn.

*Symbiotic Wurm: ok, this is another critter that alot of people will dismiss in a deck with no sacrifice outlets ( ill explain why cabal therapy is not here) but he is very very good in metagames with alot of stax and black white aggro or control decks.
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Other creatures that after being tested have produced very little good results and thus should not be considered and hopefully more explanation for their non inclusion will not be necessary:

*Angel of Despair: used to be in the deck yet it fell short in oh so many ways... the creature was mostly used as a bad vindicate that costs you 7 life and hardly ever wins or does a game altering effect, without a way to constantly re use him he isnt all that good. (-recurring nightmare will be explained later too).

*Blazing Archon: i have tried him before and this is mostly what happens:

1-you end up paying 9 life against aggro to bring him out in play to loose him to eddict, gempalm incinerator or any kind of target removal of the sorts before it deals any damage or alters the game at all.

2-if you get him against landstill, or any control or combo, his just a 5/6 with no haste that has no synergy with the rest of the deck to make an impression or give you a chance to race them.

3-your aggro matchup is already amazing, other than ichorid combo ( which is combo more than aggro ) and for that you have cards after side board, which help against the deck more, plus unless you have 4 you will almost never see it before they go onlie and kill you. ( see TES and Belcher matchup results).

so he is not as good in play as he is on paper.

*Gigapede: he needs a discard outlet in order to be a discard outlet, and not powerful or evasive at all.

*Undead Gladiator: certainly an uncounterable discard outlet yet too slow and not as good of a card drawing engine. EX:

You would have to wait till turn two to cycle and then pay 1b to bring him back and discard the third turn and then hope to have a reanimate instead of a two mana reanimation spell to even be able to reanimate a creature that same turn, let alone have a third land. making it slow, very slow.

*Kokusho, the Evening Star: hardcastable and also a pretty efficient creature. only thing about this creature that is bad is that in order for it to deal its damage instantaneously you would have to have a cabal therapy to sac it too. Swords to plowshares is still the biggest creature hoser and by not being able to deal the damage right away it makes the creature a dead play.


*Platinum Angel: i guess this could be your only out against decks like SI and Belcher... yet they probably will kill you before it comes down. interesting in multiples and makes it difficult to get beat or loose if more than one hit play, but not strong enough to warrant a maindeck slot.

*Duplicant: i had this guy in my B/G reanimator deck and also my B/R version, but only because i had recurring nightmare in them, and not having blue makes it so you have to make the most use of your creatures, if you were able to re use him alot it would be good, but you already have an amazing game against aggro, so im sure you dont need him anyways.

*Reya Dawnbringer: by herself she isnt that great. yeah free reanimation everyturn is great, no ... its amazing, but the fact is, if your playing against a deck that cant deal with her... you were going to win anyways. its a win more card with little effect in the ultimate outcome of the game.

*Dragon Mage: you do not want to fill your opponents hands with cards, even if its a simetrical draw. if they didnt have an answer for him when he first hit, odds are they will draw into it and be able to get back in the game with a full set of fuel.

*Volraths Shapeshifter: Interesting card, i noticed its not good enough of a beater and discard outlet. Thing i saw were that it would never turn into a creature after carefull study or intuition, since the cards you discard and search for go underneath it in the graveyard after resolution.

*Dimir Doppelganger: you dont want to remove your creatures from your yard. sorry but this is a nono.

*Bringer of the White Dawn: unless your going for a combo kill or have a ton of sundering titans in the yard and a way to sac them. no need for him.

*Spirit monger: good creature yet theres better ones in the deck already, plus it doesnt win the game by itself at all...

*RAZIA: was good in testing, yet not better than anything setup. Fulfills the same roll as akroma, but not as good. thus it didnt make the cut.

*Kuro Pitlord: horrible, not being ale to reanimate him till turn 4 or later is BAAAAAAAD! very bad! also the loss of life is not going to save you. pay 5-6 life to kill one goyf... nah, its not worth it.

*Nullstone Gargoyle: is not that good because it only eliminates one card and that isn't backbreaking to most decks. In his case, might as well run a Platinum Angel.( see platinum angel).

*Verdant Force: not fast enough creature generation, descent but just not there.

*Mindleech Mass: Suffers from the same problems as blazing Archon, good on paper, yet not so good in play. one hit does not spell game over and he gets worse as the game gets longer in turns.
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rodgon666
02-11-2008, 07:45 AM
Mandatory Reanimation Spells

* Reanimate: Best reanimation spell ever. just one mana to cast and the life loss is irrelevant in most cases. auto 4 of in any reanimation deck.
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*Exhume: Second best reanimation spell ever printed, 1B to get any creature back, no life loss and more often than not your opponent will not get anything in play or they will get a creature that has no relevance in the game after you get your in. If you exhume a dragon you can kill their creature with its coming into play ability if you need it dead. Gets around tormods crypt and extirpate if you have a discard creature and another creature in hand EX:

just remember exhume doesnt target until resolved. so if they get rid of your yard before... just dsicard one more fatty after their effect resolves and with exhume still on the stack, since priority goes back to you even if you already passed it before the crypt trigger. And taaadaaa! you have it in play.
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*Animate Dead: Third best reanimation spell printed. the -1 power and being able to loose it to a deed or disentchant make it worse than exhume and reanimate by alot of levels yet its better than other options out there. Also being able to take opponents creatures as well as the interaction with repel and the Tidesprout Tyrant make it even better.
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There are alot of reanimation spells in the game of magic. It really sucks that most of the best reanimation spells are old classics, and there hasnt been any good ones printed in years. here is a list of some that have the potential to be played in legacy, yet not any better than the ones i already have listed.

*Life and Death: Having 2 reanimation spells that make you loose life will often result in so much lie loss youll be easy to pick off. Incredibly worse than animate dead and exhume. Not good enough to be included.

*Stitch Together: not good. you have almost not way to achieve turn 2 threshhold or a consistent turn 3. if it didnt require it it would be there instead of animate dead, but its not so its not.

*Recurring Nightmare: is at least on paper an amazing card to play in this deck. i have tested it and unfortunately discovered that at 3 mana it is slow in alot of situations. its not bad, yet its a kill more card. you do leave yourself open to losing to a random stifle.

* Zombify, and any reanimation spell with a cost higher than 2 are too slow.
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Spells/ Draw/ Additional discard---Synergy core if the deck.

Its obvious that any reanimation deck has to have more than just huge fatties and efficient reanimation spells in order to win games. In order for this deck, in fact any deck to have any chance to be competitive it needs the proper spells to help it succeed in its struggle.

these are the spells i have found till recently that have the best synergy and efficiency with this particular deck.

*Careful Study: Single handily the best synergy card in the deck, allows you to dig for combo pieces ( reanimator decks are considered combo by the way) while replacing your creatures in hand with reanimation spells and other goodies. and for just 1 blue mana its both a discard outlet and a draw engine.
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*Intuition: This spot used to be buried alive. but being instant speed and being able to fetch creatures and spells make it infinitely better than buried alive. The best search engine card for the deck.
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*3x Brainstorm: Only 3 brainstorms since its only the secondary draw card, it only fulfills one duty and is good in conjunction with the 8 fetchlands. but there is no space for one more.
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*Repeal*: This card is essential to the decks consistency. You often run across main deck problematic cards that cant be dealt with with your creatures. this also buys you time and digs for cards you need. buys tempo for your deck. other cards used and efficient in this slot are Echoing truth, and Chain vapors ( both of which in my own opinion are inferior to repeal just die to the card drawing).
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Other Spells not included due to inefficiency and lack of synergy:

*Cabal Therapy: good card in the deck yet not really as necessary as people might think, the deck is meant to be played as an aggressive deck, if your trying to spend your initial turns maybe, perhaps getting some cards out of your opponents hands then your probably going to loose. first turns are always meant to get your discard outlets active and ready to go, and using this on yourself is a horrible way to waste this cards intended use.

*Dark Ritual: a two color deck does not want this card, you only get a boost out of it about 50% of the time you draw it in your opening hand. which might not seem like something bad, yet the boost you might get sometime is often not necesery to win any games. you eliminate some speed in order to add consistency of the deck.

*Attunment: this would be good if you had alot of flashback spells. as a search spell its good and its not that bad as a discard outlet as well, yet you want to be able to selectively discard your cards not most of you hand. as a top deck its pointless. ( same could be said about careful study, yet that one only costs one not 3)

*Recall: 3 for one card, 5 for 2. not bad, its a little like a witness for blue. you would never want to see in your opening hand though. and without it in multiples its not worth it.


*Forbid: you dont need to have control elements like counters, i would consider daze since its free and protects your initial turns, not forbid though, most of your mana and turns should be spent searching and reanimating, and to protect a reanimation spell you would need 5 mana, as a discard outlet its not that great.

*Last Rites: not a bad card against combo, slow combo. almost any other deck your not worried about what they play enough to try to get it from their hands, instead of maybe swords or counters.

*False Memories: fun card! i would love this in ichorid, but as a creature tutor it not as efficient. you want your cards that search to be able to be as flexible as possible and as you have it right now you have some of the most effective tutors for a deck in this style. brainstorm is the nuts... carefull study is both draw and discard, and intuition is just too flexible. on the other hand if you had alot of flashback cards it would be good, but this is not really the deck or this card.

*Sickening Dreams: this is also a very good card to add to the deck, you could easily switch these for the oonas prowlers. this create an undisruptable way of discarding ( since the discard is as an additional cost to the mana payed for the spell) as well as an additional source of burn and damage. i used to have these in the B/G and B/R versions of the deck, and if you decide to go with either these or the oonas prowlers its completely a metagame call. if you have alot of aggro go for the dreams, if you have alot of aggro control go for the oonas.

*Insidious Dreams: too expensive, it would be amazing at 3. but 4 is too much

*Possessed Portal: hahaha really? common its 8 mana... hahaha its would be a late late late late late game card, if you want some disrution of the sort throw in braids cabal minion, nice recurring interaction and disruption of opponents strategy. not an optimal choice though.

*Lotus Petal: look at what i said about dark ritual, the cards boost is not worth the consistency of the later game.

*Hurkyl's Recall: im guessing this is to bounce cards like needle and also crypts... thats what repeal is for and it draws you a card.


*Wheel and Deal: in megrim deck perhaps... but you never want to give an opponent 7 fresh cards... you never do. unless you have some way of doing something in which it helps you more than them. maybe in legacy owling mine? ( do i hear a contest deck winner here? hahaha)

*Diamond Valley: its good if you have it... but irrelevant if you dont. never a good card to have in you opening hands, if it produced mana maybe... yet not even worth the investment. very conditional and useless unless you have multiples to draw it when you need it ( turns 2 or 3 and odds are you only want it turn 3 and if you dont use it turn 3 your critter is gone with the swords before you untap anyways.)
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Lands

the decks manabase is geared around getting a dual land turn 1 or 2. only 19 lands are ok since your spells cost 2 or 1 with exception of intuitions. removing as much land from the deck with 8 fetchlands and having some basics in case of a blood moon or anything of the sorts is good to have given the situation.
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Side Board


*Echoing Truth: are against combo like TES or anything with a lot of token generation. extra bounce against decks you need it.

*Repeal: against small aggro, white weenie, suicide black, or if you fear crypt.

*Show and Tell: against black aggro control or stuff such as shuffle truffle style decks, or landstill

*Stifle: is also against combo and yet its so versatile that i side it in against alot more than that.

*Pithing Needle*** Strictly a metagame slot. you choose. need to find something very good.

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Any percentages i post up are irrelevant, instead ill just describe what matchups are good and why their good and the bad and why as well.

Matchups agaisnt the major decks are as follows:

CONTROL:

Landstill:
In your favor. the only version that gives you any problems is the four color variation with edicts and spell snares main. Other version are simple to beat.
Side In: Stifles

The Rock:
Pretty much a Bye. you have soo much time its hard for them to deal with your critters fast enough, Sundering titan is MVP in this MU.
Side In: Echoing Truth.



AGGRO CONTROL:

U/G/b and U/G/r:
Incredibly in your favor, they also give you massive amount of time and without swords to deal with your fatties they cant stop you.

U/G/w:
swords makes this matchup slightly more disadvantageous than the other versions of thresh. Yet its still pretty good, id say very slightly in your favor.
MVP: Sky Swallower and Sundering Titan.

Survival:
Even. Unless you get control of the game early you will loose in tempo. you can still get the game under control later in the game but it really depends on who gets the upper hand first.
MVP: Hellkites.

Dragon Stompy:
Slightly unfavorable. this deck is also very explosive and if they get a turn 1 mage it ruins you game play. it doesnt lock you out but its not very good for you without having almost any basics. Chalice 1 or 2 hurts alot, but trinisphere isnt a gamebreaker.

AGGRO:

Vial Goblins:
Pretty much auto win. very close to a bye. If the opposing goblin deck has a white splash it still in your favor.
MVP: all.

Dead Guy ale:
Even. This decks disruption is very annoying. After play testing i have found that dealing with more than 1 creature is very hard for them before you kill them. but then again if you run into their disruption very early the tempo goes in their favor, not drastically but it shifts.
MVP: Sundering Titan, Skyswallower

COMBO:

Ichorid:
Unfavorable. they are very fast, you can still race them, yet if they have the god hand your gonna loose. at least game 1. after sideboard you have a much better chance.
Side In: Stifle, echoing truth
MVP: ???

chmoddity
02-11-2008, 10:37 AM
Gigapede: he needs a discard outlet in order to be a discard outlet, and not powerful or evasive at allI think you should run it anyway since you can guarantee what you Intuition for ends up in the gy and not your hand if you make him the third card.


deck called Dragon. The format was changed so much and the deck was so devastating to the format that the cards were soon banned. A true bummer for every single reanimation mage out there...This really isn't true at all. The cards were banned when Legacy was created along with stuff like Land Tax, Mana Drain, and Hermit Druid. Just saying.

Fun deck, and a pretty good one. But how is this one any different from the ones I see commonly?

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 02:12 PM
what makes this one deck different from all the reanimator decks out there is that this deck actually works in a tournament environment. ive still to see any other reanimator deck except for orloves reanimator deck and my B/G version in the mana leak open make it to the top 8 of any mayor tournament.

besides from that the card choices and me being the first one ( as far as i know) to have come up with a B/U reanimator deck list that works in a legacy environment without trying to bite off the extended version. that makes it unique.

also.

i have placed first in one major one, and countless first places in SD in our weekly tournaments, thus i believe this makes it stand out alot more than any other legacy reanimator deck out there, since the focus of the deck is strictly to win and not just to have fun. ( not that its not fun to win ^_^ ) that also makes this deck unique.

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 03:06 PM
i have taken the freedom to post this deck in the Cangd deck challenge as well.

also heres the link to all the previous information about the deck in the new and developmental section if anyone wants to take a look at how the deck turned out the way it did.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8640

Gambit
02-11-2008, 03:08 PM
I too am happy to see this here and hope people don't dismiss it because it's "reanimator". This deck is consistant and powerful; I happen to be in the boat that 61 cards is one to many, but it's hard to argue with resultsm (I think I would cut either a prowler or a b-storm). For what it's worth this deck crushed me in the finals of a 52 man tournament while I was playing white stax.

Mister Agent
02-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Actually come to think of it this reanimator deck is probably one of the most innovative and effective decks there is in this contest other then mossnought in my opinion. I mean the deck looks very flexible and has answers for many different situations in the metagame. You should play this at the GP rod I bet you would do pretty well.

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 03:55 PM
GP? for legacy?

just let me know where and ill bring the other minoraTeam members with me to it to represent. hahahaha

yeah and i do think this deck would do very good. its often looked at with condescending looks from my opponents that is until you beat them down twice in minutes or less. They dont expect it to be that explosive and non forgiving.

punks hahahaha.

Mister Agent
02-11-2008, 04:02 PM
GP? for legacy?

just let me know where and ill bring the other minoraTeam members with me to it to represent. hahahaha

yeah and i do think this deck would do very good. its often looked at with condescending looks from my opponents that is until you beat them down twice in minutes or less. They dont expect it to be that explosive and non forgiving.

punks hahahaha.

Looks like what I heard from Robert there isn't going to be an grand prix for legacy. However I think you should take it to gencon. It would be refreshing to see another San Diego player besides Nick Trudeau to top 8 at a legacy champs event.:wink:

TheLion
02-11-2008, 04:53 PM
*Animate Dead: Third best reanimation spell printed. the -1 power and being able to loose it to a deed or disentchant make it worse than exhume and reanimate by alot of levels yet its better than other options out there. Also being able to take opponents creatures as well as the interaction with repel and the Tidesprout Tyrant make it even better.


Can you explain the interaction between "return to hand" and Animate Dead please? The leaves play trigger triggers, even if Animate Dead is returned to hand... or am I wrong here? hm... cant be...

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 05:28 PM
oh. by that i mean that you have the possibility to re-reanimate a dragon or a the sundering titan for extra damage/control. Done at a good time it can win you alot of games that might have been really shady.

its just some extra versatility to the deck, as well as being able to re- reanimate opposing Witnesses, or any of their creatures with good abilities, taking opposing goyfs after killing them with a dragon are always fun plays. Also making your opponent use their Graveyard hat on themselves is also like a slap in the face, hahaha

Isamaru
02-11-2008, 10:28 PM
I'm getting tons of hands where you are praying that your 1 reanimation-target creature goes all the way if BOTH your discard piece and your reanimation piece resolved. Is it just MWS, or does the deck only even show you 1-2 reanimation targets in the first 6 turns?

I tried out a 60 card variation and did -3 Brainstorm -3 Intuition -1 Simic Sky Swallower, +3 Quicken +4 Mulldrifter. It's the only way I can think of making the deck not fizzle out short of taking Oona's Prowler out for Looter il-Kor. Seeing one Mulldrifter draws you ~4 cards, while Intuition isn't doing much extra as far as I can tell.

You mentioned a problem with Exhume and Oona's Prowler. I don't think it's the end of the world either, but it does present a problem when combined with the fact that Bogardan Hellkite killing creatures means Exhuming later undoes his work...

I would suggest replacing Exhume with Necromancy ("4th best" reanimation you might say?) because you may find yourself facing down a Counterbalance with 1cc and 2cc in their top 3 shutting off all your reanimation.

Does a Green splash offer anything? Pernicious Deed? Krosan Grip? Sorry if it sounds like a suggestion that stretches and thereby dilutes the deck. Just wondering if it improves anything despite that cost.

thefreakaccident
02-11-2008, 10:43 PM
I'm getting tons of hands where you are praying that your 1 reanimation-target creature goes all the way if BOTH your discard piece and your reanimation piece resolved. Is it just MWS, or does the deck only even show you 1-2 reanimation targets in the first 6 turns?

I tried out a 60 card variation and did -3 Brainstorm -3 Intuition -1 Simic Sky Swallower, +3 Quicken +4 Mulldrifter. It's the only way I can think of making the deck not fizzle out short of taking Oona's Prowler out for Looter il-Kor. Seeing one Mulldrifter draws you ~4 cards, while Intuition isn't doing much extra as far as I can tell.

You mentioned a problem with Exhume and Oona's Prowler. I don't think it's the end of the world either, but it does present a problem when combined with the fact that Bogardan Hellkite killing creatures means Exhuming later undoes his work...

I would suggest replacing Exhume with Necromancy ("4th best" reanimation you might say?) because you may find yourself facing down a Counterbalance with 1cc and 2cc in their top 3 shutting off all your reanimation.

Does a Green splash offer anything? Pernicious Deed? Krosan Grip? Sorry if it sounds like a suggestion that stretches and thereby dilutes the deck. Just wondering if it improves anything despite that cost.

- It is just MWS

- quicken? Mulldrifter?! These changes don't even make any sense, seeing as you are also taking out the cantrips and tutors (he uses intuition as an instant speed buried alive 1/3 of the time)... Necromancy is 3cc, this deck has few cantrips and 19 lands... he cannot fill out the curve that way!

- 12/60 = 1/5 One out of every 5 cards is going to be a reanimation spell... you should see more than 1 reanimation spell in the first six turns.

manofbio
02-11-2008, 11:13 PM
Have you ever considered running Trickster Mage over Oona's Prowler? Its costs one less and gives the possibility of more turn two reanimations.

BTW congrads on getting this posted in the Established section.

Team-Hero
02-11-2008, 11:20 PM
If your going to cut one card to make it 60 cards... cut the 3rd Intuition. Don't tamper too much with the deck or else it won't work. Personally, I would only modify the big beater creatures in response to the meta, but nothing else.

Team-Hero
02-11-2008, 11:27 PM
I would also consider Imp's Mischief for the sideboard. The card works wonders against B/W, B/G/W , B/G, and Burn.

Team-Hero
02-11-2008, 11:32 PM
Have you ever considered running Trickster Mage over Oona's Prowler? Its costs one less and gives the possibility of more turn two reanimations.

BTW congrads on getting this posted in the Established section.

I like the way you are thinking but the problem with Trickster Mage is that she requires to tap. In addition to the summoning sickness, she can only discard one card a turn.

Oona's Prowler is able to discard more than one card a turn on the turn she comes into play. This is critical for the Reanimator deck when it's trying to play around Crypts and other graveyard hate.

I would much rather consider the card Turbulent Dreams if you want to run an additional blue discard outlet.

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 03:39 AM
Imps mischief is certainly a good sideboard card. it could easily replace the needle spot.

Also Team Hero hit it dead on when it comes down to the issue of being able to discard more than one card per activation.

Turbulent dreams is just not better than repeal. its good but not versatile enough since its not an instant.

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 03:53 AM
I tried out a 60 card variation and did -3 Brainstorm -3 Intuition -1 Simic Sky Swallower, +3 Quicken +4 Mulldrifter. It's the only way I can think of making the deck not fizzle out short of taking Oona's Prowler out for Looter il-Kor. Seeing one Mulldrifter draws you ~4 cards, while Intuition isn't doing much extra as far as I can tell.

I would suggest replacing Exhume with Necromancy ("4th best" reanimation you might say?) because you may find yourself facing down a Counterbalance with 1cc and 2cc in their top 3 shutting off all your reanimation.

Does a Green splash offer anything? Pernicious Deed? Krosan Grip? Sorry if it sounds like a suggestion that stretches and thereby dilutes the deck. Just wondering if it improves anything despite that cost.

ok ( deep breath..... phew......)

- 3 brainstorms ... ok.... perhaps...but y? for quicken? or mulldrifter? so digging for 1 or 2 is better than 3? .... i dont know where why you think its better but please explain your reasoning.

Intuition is necesary in this deck. it tutors for anything you need. It is THE tutor. it allows for your toolbox to be useful, if its not in the deck then you might as well take out the toolbox creatures. but again... why? im not getting your reasoning at all.

The looter was well considered yet it suffers from summoning sickness and it only allows for you to discard one card in only your turn. only a 1/1. and it cant block... its so much less efficient than the oonas prowler, and slower if drawn later in the game.

Mulldrifter is too slow at 3 mana. as a reanimation target he sucks too. not even worth considering, this would actually make your hands slower, not quicker by any means.



Exhume is not to be replaced. Its too good to be replaced. specially with necromancy. yeah its instant speed ability is great and all, but it costs 3 mana.

By making these changes your turning the deck from an explosive and relient deck into what would be at most a fun casual deck, since it wont win any tournaments being that slow. im sorry to be so frank and it might sound mean, but please PLEASE describe your ideas if you plan on suggesting to change the strategy of the deck.

thanks.

Isamaru
02-12-2008, 04:45 AM
I did, and apparently you ignored them - I didnt say that Quicken was better than Brainstorm, and I was merely bringing up Mulldrifter for discussion as well.

Quicken and Mulldrifter like other cards may each offer something. Of course they are not set in stone, but they are suggestions nonetheless that you could consider. In some instances, certain cards are more helpful than others. It is your job to decide which instances will come up more often. For example, you need to ask yourself whether you would you rather have the quickness of Exhume with the possible drawbacks, or would you rather have a Counterbalance evading, drawbackless (sans Enchantment removal) reanimation spell (with the possible Substance-Flash) useage at the cost of an extra mana?

You also missed my question about a possible green splash. I'd have to disagree that Pernicious Deed or less explosive elements would constitute a "fun casual deck."

It may have been MWS, but even with 19 lands, I drew at least 4 lands and only one reanimate-target creature with the shuffler. That doesn't seem particularly fast to me either. (And this isn't counting hands that I did draw the cards in the slots I modified from the original list at the time.)

I don't understand which you want: you are now saying you want to be quick enough to win a tournament, but in the opening post you discuss the exclusion of Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox for consistency as your goal. (Which is my preferance as well.)

I haven't slept in two days, so if I am coming off harshly, please excuse me. :tongue: I am trying to help if I can.

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 05:12 AM
sorry to hear your MWS shuffler is bad for ya, quite frankly i never have a problem with drawing multiples of what you need.


The deck itself is fast, the fact that i dont have Rituals or Moxes is already discussed please read the above thread. Speed doesnt mean you need the mana acceleration. I want speed and synergy between my cards and mulldrifter has none. and your reanimation being instant speed at the cost of 1 blue isnt that relevant since you want to try and reanimate right away.

The reason not to have necromancy in the deck is solely for the reason that first you cant reanimate a creature second turn with it, secondly counterbalance is a threat, yet i just dont see it as that big of a threat that it would require me to change the deck around just for that matchup, which is already good. ( and by that matchup i assume you mean Thresh variants).

The green splash would be worth it if it helped against your worst matchups ( turn 1 and 2 kill combo decks, TES, SI, Belcher, Iggypop, and Ichorid) and yet deed wouldnt help in those matchups, and Krosan grip wouldnt help either. And please dont even mention adding Goyfs... yeah... any deck would be better with them, but where is the innovation in that?


Point to be taken... 1 mana more in the cost of a spell is alot in a deck with 19 lands and 8 fetchlands.

Media314r8
02-12-2008, 11:36 AM
what makes this one deck different from all the reanimator decks out there is that this deck actually works in a tournament environment. ive still to see any other reanimator deck except for orloves reanimator deck and my B/G version in the mana leak open make it to the top 8 of any mayor tournament.

i have placed first in one major one, and countless first places in SD in our weekly tournaments, thus i believe this makes it stand out alot more than any other legacy reanimator deck out there, since the focus of the deck is strictly to win and not just to have fun. ( not that its not fun to win ^_^ ) that also makes this deck unique.

By this logic, I could build a Kithkin WW deck that has been built and discussed several times for legacy, and have some moderate success with it at local tournaments. (which you admit are somewhat scrubish) What major tournament do you speak of? Success does not make a deck unique, it makes a deck successful. (or the pilot lucky, which I have seen)

Rinello
02-12-2008, 01:01 PM
Prowlers?

why don't you try Zombie Infestation?

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 02:22 PM
if you managed to build a kithikin WW deck and placed did not just moderately well, but very very good in tournaments with 25+ people in a constant basis i would gladly say that your deck is unique, at least in the sense that your card choices and strategy took a kithikin deck which most people would not really consider a contender to a respectable and feared spot in legacy.

And trust me its not just luck and its not just the player. I have let people borrow my deck when im not there just to see if that was the case, the three times i lent it to a certain matt mendez he won all three 25+ weekly tournaments with it. A handfull of other people have also done very well with this deck including TEAM HERO.
So even though i do get lucky its not really a matter of luck that i win the tournaments. I know the deck in and out, i know the correct plays and strategies to play around almost every deck type, and im a fairly competent player( not to sound too full of myself). maybe that has alot to do with the wins of the deck as well.

but saying its just luck. hahahaha. sorry but thats something only a person who just lost a game to me would say.

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 03:21 PM
a 2/2 zombie for two mana and two cards in hand create a very bad card advantage scenerio for you.

youll often find yourself not wanting to discard a non creature card from your hand in order to put stuff in your yard.

its a very bad topdeck card if you have no cards in hand and the critters it produces have no evasion.

id rather have a 3/1 flyer for the same amount of mana thats going to make the opponent discard his cards if he doesnt want alot of damage done to him, in multiples they are very good, which is not something we can say about zombie infestation.

Srovex
02-12-2008, 06:49 PM
So it was THIS deck I played against earlyer today on MWS, altough I managed to beat it with Wb death and taxes. First game it suprised me with reanimation strategy, but in second game I was able to get vial on 3 in play with 2 Stonecloakers online. Third game my opponent didn't have too many reanimation targets and I easily plowed thru his defences. I think he was mana screwd too.

My overall impressions of the deck is that is can get really consistant reanimations. I had to fight my way trough many drangons and Akroma. If a deck can't fight early fatties (in the age of tarmogoyfs, who can't?) or have any GY removal it will be in trouble when paired against this deck.

It's a good deck, good luck on the contest rod!

Rinello
02-12-2008, 08:34 PM
I think my opponent will discard a creature to generate advantage with my exhume if I use Prowler.

Also my zombie token can chumpblock to buy time ;)

mercenarybdu
02-12-2008, 09:06 PM
why not some stitch together?

And if you have some expendables, Recurring Nightmare?

Xurcks
02-12-2008, 09:09 PM
Mandatory Reanimation Spells

*Stitch Together: not good. you have almost not way to achieve turn 2 threshhold or a consistent turn 3. if it didnt require it it would be there instead of animate dead, but its not so its not.

*Recurring Nightmare: is at least on paper an amazing card to play in this deck. i have tested it and unfortunately discovered that at 3 mana it is slow in alot of situations. its not bad, yet its a kill more card. you do leave yourself open to losing to a random stifle.



He already explained the reasons why they didn't fit in the deck in the long long post above.Reading is tech :wink:

rodgon666
02-12-2008, 11:43 PM
I think my opponent will discard a creature to generate advantage with my exhume if I use Prowler.

Also my zombie token can chumpblock to buy time ;)


thats the only situation in which the card is bad, yet your critter is still going to be bigger than theirs almost all the time, so who cares what they bring out, odds are youll winn the damage race from there on. and you still have the 3/1 flyer on top of that... instead of minus two cards in hand and a 2/2 that will only chump block half the time.

mercenarybdu.....

Please read before posting... odds are your questions have been answered.

TheLion
02-13-2008, 04:37 AM
lol... i think you played against me. Though i did not play the exact list. Did you asked me, if my deck was from CaNG? And I answered "nearly"?
Yes, two Stonecloakers kicked ass... and swords too :-/

rodgon666
02-13-2008, 05:10 AM
what was the variations you were using for the game? do you recall the games by turns and actions taken? ive never tested versus taxes decks too much and would like to know why it lost and how it lost.

all if you have this info it wold be great!

TheLion
02-13-2008, 05:42 AM
I think the list i played was something like:

-3 Brainstorm
-1 Animate Dead
-1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn

+1 Greater Harvester
+1 Repeal
+2 Cabal Therapy

I quite like therapies in this deck, though i didnt test as much as you. But you can most often sac unneeded Imps (since you only need it, to discard some cards) or Hellkites for re-reanimation (ftw sometimes).

We played 3 games without SB I think. I dont remember all the actions. He sworded a Hellkite turn 2 I think, but i got another to play I think. But never drew a second sword. I won game 1 with Hellkite a think.

He won game 2, since he has 2 Stonecloakers... They are so annoying, and just wins the game for him. He removed Phantom and Akroma!? What was also annoying is that I wasn't even able to kill a jitte-equipped Isamaru with 2 jitte counters with Hellkite.
He played Cataclysm, which left a Hellkite on my side and a Jitte-equipped creature on his side, which won him the game.

Third game was quite slow on both sides. I didnt drew fatties... only imps and reanimation spells.
He beat me to death with Jötun Grunt and Jitte...

rodgon666
02-13-2008, 05:57 AM
-3 brainstorms will greatly affect your draw performance, with 8 fetchlands you can make the most use of the brainstorms.

im surprised that with 3 repeals in the deck you didnt run into any,,, wouldve won you the games.

greater harvester is good but onlly if you get to connect with him, if your looking for a creature that creates better synergy in the way of making your opponent sacrifice then run Braids cabal minion. shes not fat , but does wonders. that is if you want to replace one of the bringers as your metagame call.

manofbio
02-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Have you ever considered a build designed with silver bullets against certain decks. Something like:
4 Bringer of the Black Dawn--tutoring for needed cards
1 True Believer--against combo like TES since it relies on targeting with Tendrils
1 Magus of the Moon--against landstill
1 Jotun Grunts--to fight threshold
1 Magma Giant/Thunder Dragon/Bogardian Hellkite--to fight goblins.

The build would probably depend on the metagame for different areas.

technogeek5000
02-13-2008, 10:14 PM
You talked about tombstalker in your post and it seems like it could be one of the strongest options here. Its good because it can be casted easily as a alternative win con if you dont have a reanimation spell and its not that bad of reanimation target. Also your probably gonna want something inevitable... Akroma is sort of like that having pro against 2 colors filled with disruption but it is still gonna die if someone points a STP in its direction. Simic Sky Swallower seems like a great option as nothing targeted kills it which is good because of tarmogoyf. Also in addition to the 6/6 flying body it doesnt die to mass removal excluding WOG so it would probably one of the strongest targets you can pull out against landstill decks.

Team-Hero
02-13-2008, 11:57 PM
If StP really scares you that much, why not just run Imp's Mischief? For one life and two mana you just made them waste one of the few answers they might have in their deck. On an even better outcoming, you might even end up plowing away one of their early Goyfs.

enemyofarsenic
02-15-2008, 02:19 AM
When it comes to sideboarding. Which cards do you guys take out first? The list is kind of tight and even rodgon666 the creator of the deck sports a 61 cards deck.

Team-Hero
02-15-2008, 10:51 PM
I find the SB out to be hard. I mostly go
-1 Brainstorm,
-1 Careful Study,
-1 Intuition,
-1 Putrid Imp,
-1 Animate Dead,
in that order until the cards are in. Anything more and your messing too much with the deck. RodGon might have a different approach to it. I like to delude my decks instead of stripping a certain card from it (unless it's completely useless).

CleverPetriDish
02-16-2008, 09:54 AM
I'm confused, Rodrigo. How can any deck be both "new" (CanGD) and "established" (Established Decks) concurrently?

rodgon666
02-16-2008, 04:12 PM
i actually didnt post this deck till after the cangd contest was announced and therefore it meets the criteria as a new innovative deck as far as the source goes.

ive been playing the deck for several months in SD, with great success. ( another first place at GE yesterday, ill post up the list i used and the tournament report on both the established and the Contest thread.)

therefore by having very good success with the deck and having tested almost everything and most variations of what the deck could be i can safely say it fits in the established decks forums, since it has established itself in out metagame here in south California.

rodgon666
02-16-2008, 06:07 PM
i was once again fiddling with the deck and the sideboard yesterday at GE, i once again ended up taking 1st going undefeated, i did some very minor changes in the main, i put in one more oonas prowler and replaced the tidesprout tyrant with another sundering titan, just for simplicities sake, also i have found that if you find the tidesprout later than turn 4 he is very hard to get going efficiently. so i figured that instead of returning the lands to their hands id rather destroy them. and to keep the deck 61 i cut an intuition, just to see if TEAM HERO's suggestion worked efficiently.

As the sideboard goes i took out the 3 needles and since i added the 4th oonas prowler i decided to add 3 jittes to see if they worked. they did nicely.

Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
2x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard

3x umezawas jitte
1x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell

ROUND 1: Blue white fish ( Dean )

Game 1:
he lets an imp in play, but he disrupts the first 3 reanimation spells i play, i finally get a fatty on board disrupt his game and he kills it, soon enough another comes out and he steals it with the control magic fearie, i kill his fearie with a hellkite getting back my creature and beat him to death.

Game 2:
this game went long, he had a couple of Jotun grunts and a meddling mage, i manage to get him low on life with a jitte and an imp, but he manages to stop my reanimation with the grunts and after a long fought battle i loose.

Game 3:
he keeps a hand low on lands and i manage a turn 2 sundering titan, which he stifles as he comes into play. he then goes and doesnt play another land, i beat with him and an imp. he goes again and plays a fetchland and passes the turn, i attack he brainstorms and activates his fetchland. I stifle it and he concedes. he had the swords off the braisntorm i guess.

ROUND 2: B/W/G Goyf Control. ( Mike Mcfarland )

Game 1:
it went fast, he swords my imp on his second turn i send a couple of critters to the yard in response. my turn i brainstorm into reanimate and then bring it a SSS out. game.

Game 2:
he doesnt have much graveyard hate and its a very good matchup for me, i decide to not not sideboard.
i get an early dragon and then a sundering titan, he has a goyf and he castigates me second. my critters are bigger and i ride them to a win.

ROUND 3: U/G/B Grow ( ben meyer)

Game 1:
I dont remember all the details, just that he got screwed by my creautures and i won not so difficult.

Game 2:
I try the jittes and once again they dont disappoint, yet he manages to to get a double leyline out, and im short of beating his face in. show and tell also did wonders in this match, and Akroma came down a little too late.

Game 3:
I disrupt his early game and once both of us have almost no hands i bring out a bringer of the blue dawn to tip everything in my favour. it was close at first but once he let me draw once it was over.


INTERMISSION ROUND:
in between game here i went around and michael scherer that was playing Evoke foodchain challenged me to a game. y not i said and we shuffled up.

Game 1:
a turn 3 foodchain cant deal with 2 dragons and oonas beats.

Game 2:
second turn dragon killing his birds slows his food chain combo, he manages to bounce my dragon, then he plays the 7/7 dude that deals damage to flyers and players. i have at the moment he plays that an imp, and a tombstalker. i block once and he plays guile and takes me to 9. i beat then reanimate my dragin again for the last points of damage leaving me at 1.

{these were played without sideboards}


ROUND 4: Ichorid combo ( Petze dylan )
I helped him tweak the deck before the tournament and i was really expecting to almost auto lose game 1...but.....

Game 1: he dredges early on into 3 of his bridges, i animate dead a creature and repeal the animate dead to my hand to remove them. he beats with 3 ichorids a turn and i only have 1 creature to block each time. he then dread returns a 9/9 troll and stalls the game. he runs out of creatures to remove to the ichorids and on the back of repeal and animate dead on dragons i kill him off.
Game 2:
he starts strong dredging into 2 bridges and an ichorid. i stifle ichorids coming into play ability then on my turn i reanimate his own ichorid to remove his bridges kill his land with a sundering titan and roll his back to a win.

ROUND 5: B/W CONTROl'ish ( Thomas "mini " Scherer)
first of all let me give props to this kid for always placing high, recently he has piloted a number of decks to a very good performance he is like 12 i think and he is doing very good, with his unique decks.

Game 1:
Unfortunately for him this is an almost Autowin for me game 1. i keep a slow hand with several cantrips and a reanimation spell. i get a turn 3 critter and he cant find an answer fast enough to more creatures after it.

Game 2:
i know he brings in extirpates and such nonesense so i put in the jittes to throw him off. i never see them and just get a sundering titan turn 4 and just slow roll him to a win.


i end up in 1st undefeated.

when i sideboard i tend to take out whatever is not going to help me much. against aggro decks i take out the exhumes and brought in the jittes.

against control, i take out the intuitions and perhaps an animate dead for the show and tells.

if i need stuff against combo i side out 2 oonas 2 intuitions and the exhumes for the stifles and more bounce.

i dont like to dilute the deck. just make sure your strategy is solid any way you choose to go.

rodgon666
02-16-2008, 06:09 PM
i was once again fiddling with the deck and the sideboard yesterday at GE, i once again ended up taking 1st going undefeated, i did some very minor changes in the main, i put in one more oonas prowler and replaced the tidesprout tyrant with another sundering titan, just for simplicities sake, also i have found that if you find the tidesprout later than turn 4 he is very hard to get going efficiently. so i figured that instead of returning the lands to their hands id rather destroy them. and to keep the deck 61 i cut an intuition, just to see if TEAM HERO's suggestion worked efficiently.

As the sideboard goes i took out the 3 needles and since i added the 4th oonas prowler i decided to add 3 jittes to see if they worked. they did nicely.

Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
2x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard

3x umezawas jitte
1x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell

ROUND 1: Blue white fish ( Dean )

Game 1:
he lets an imp in play, but he disrupts the first 3 reanimation spells i play, i finally get a fatty on board disrupt his game and he kills it, soon enough another comes out and he steals it with the control magic fearie, i kill his fearie with a hellkite getting back my creature and beat him to death.

Game 2:
this game went long, he had a couple of Jotun grunts and a meddling mage, i manage to get him low on life with a jitte and an imp, but he manages to stop my reanimation with the grunts and after a long fought battle i loose.

Game 3:
he keeps a hand low on lands and i manage a turn 2 sundering titan, which he stifles as he comes into play. he then goes and doesnt play another land, i beat with him and an imp. he goes again and plays a fetchland and passes the turn, i attack he brainstorms and activates his fetchland. I stifle it and he concedes. he had the swords off the braisntorm i guess.

ROUND 2: B/W/G Goyf Control. ( Mike Mcfarland )

Game 1:
it went fast, he swords my imp on his second turn i send a couple of critters to the yard in response. my turn i brainstorm into reanimate and then bring it a SSS out. game.

Game 2:
he doesnt have much graveyard hate and its a very good matchup for me, i decide to not not sideboard.
i get an early dragon and then a sundering titan, he has a goyf and he castigates me second. my critters are bigger and i ride them to a win.

ROUND 3: U/G/B Grow ( ben meyer)

Game 1:
I dont remember all the details, just that he got screwed by my creautures and i won not so difficult.

Game 2:
I try the jittes and once again they dont disappoint, yet he manages to to get a double leyline out, and im short of beating his face in. show and tell also did wonders in this match, and Akroma came down a little too late.

Game 3:
I disrupt his early game and once both of us have almost no hands i bring out a bringer of the blue dawn to tip everything in my favour. it was close at first but once he let me draw once it was over.


INTERMISSION ROUND:
in between game here i went around and michael scherer that was playing Evoke foodchain challenged me to a game. y not i said and we shuffled up.

Game 1:
a turn 3 foodchain cant deal with 2 dragons and oonas beats.

Game 2:
second turn dragon killing his birds slows his food chain combo, he manages to bounce my dragon, then he plays the 7/7 dude that deals damage to flyers and players. i have at the moment he plays that an imp, and a tombstalker. i block once and he plays guile and takes me to 9. i beat then reanimate my dragin again for the last points of damage leaving me at 1.

{these were played without sideboards}


ROUND 4: Ichorid combo ( Petze dylan )
I helped him tweak the deck before the tournament and i was really expecting to almost auto lose game 1...but.....

Game 1: he dredges early on into 3 of his bridges, i animate dead a creature and repeal the animate dead to my hand to remove them. he beats with 3 ichorids a turn and i only have 1 creature to block each time. he then dread returns a 9/9 troll and stalls the game. he runs out of creatures to remove to the ichorids and on the back of repeal and animate dead on dragons i kill him off.
Game 2:
he starts strong dredging into 2 bridges and an ichorid. i stifle ichorids coming into play ability then on my turn i reanimate his own ichorid to remove his bridges kill his land with a sundering titan and roll his back to a win.

ROUND 5: B/W CONTROl'ish ( Thomas "mini " Scherer)
first of all let me give props to this kid for always placing high, recently he has piloted a number of decks to a very good performance he is like 12 i think and he is doing very good, with his unique decks.

Game 1:
Unfortunately for him this is an almost Autowin for me game 1. i keep a slow hand with several cantrips and a reanimation spell. i get a turn 3 critter and he cant find an answer fast enough to more creatures after it.

Game 2:
i know he brings in extirpates and such nonesense so i put in the jittes to throw him off. i never see them and just get a sundering titan turn 4 and just slow roll him to a win.


i end up in 1st undefeated.

when i sideboard i tend to take out whatever is not going to help me much. against aggro decks i take out the exhumes and brought in the jittes.

against control, i take out the intuitions and perhaps an animate dead for the show and tells.

if i need stuff against combo i side out 2 oonas 2 intuitions and the exhumes for the stifles and more bounce.

i dont like to dilute the deck. just make sure your strategy is solid any way you choose to go.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 02:56 AM
oonas prowler is a 3/1 flyer... how is he bad in multiples? really... in multiples he gets better.

i ave already explained blazing archon.. if my reasoning for not putting him in the deck is incoherent and not applicable to you then go ahead and run him.

with only 2 therapies the likelyhood that you will draw it soon enough to work as disruption are miniscule, but since you do have them in there i guess having the wurm is not a bad idea. if you take them out put the bringer. TWO! extra cards a turn are very very good. i heard this thing once... that card advantage wins games.... im not sure but i think its true... hahaha

you dont need 3 repels main, you need more discard outlets. trust me oonas work wonders as beaters and discard.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 03:33 AM
oh.. and in the case of chalice and leylines.

chalice 1 is annoying but since you have a full suite of cards in the 2 casting cost that fullfill the same thing as your 1 casting cost cards your never locked out of the game. chalice for 1 and two would definitely close you out of the game though. so just try to get a creature our before that happens.

thats also a reason to run the prowlers. its your two casting cost discard outlet, otherwise chalice 1 wrecks you worse.

playing against a leyline is annoying as hell, but odds are you wont play against one until after people sideboard. at this point if you fear leylines, side in echoing truths or chain vapors. boomerang sucks since you need 2 blue mana, which wont happen all the time in the second turn, and you really just want to get that leyline out the way ASAP.

Or you could side in Jittes like i did, but only if you have a full set of critters to complement it. otherwise it sucks.

and yet one more answer to it, and the most efficient of them all is the best SB card in this deck. SHOW AND TELL. it gets around leyline ( which people will mulligan aggresively for) and people wont expect it.

PhanTom_lt
02-17-2008, 11:01 AM
Game 2:
he starts strong dredging into 2 bridges and an ichorid. i stifle ichorids coming into play ability then on my turn i reanimate his own ichorid to remove his bridges kill his land with a sundering titan and roll his back to a win.


Explain this part, how do you remove his bridges by reanimating his ichorid? If anything, it would only give him more zombies.

The Rack
02-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Explain this part, how do you remove his bridges by reanimating his ichorid? If anything, it would only give him more zombies.

Rod would animate the ichorid to get it on his side of the board so when it died the bridges would be removed. If I'm understanding correctly.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 02:15 PM
yes THE RACK got it right, the ichorid technically goes to my yard therefore the bridges get removed from the game.

PhanTom_lt
02-17-2008, 02:35 PM
yes THE RACK got it right, the ichorid technically goes to my yard therefore the bridges get removed from the game.

No, it doesn't. A card not in play can't ever be not in it's owner's respective zone.

Although a judge would be needed to confirm this.

TSchultz
02-17-2008, 04:01 PM
Ask the Judge (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=bridge+from+below&Submit2=Ask+the+Judge%21)

I have a Vedalken Shackles stealing an opponent's Putrid Imp. He has multiple copies of Bridge from Below in his graveyard, and I'm wondering: if I can get the Putrid Imp killed, will my opponent get token creatures, or will Bridge from Below cards be removed from the game?

A: Cards always go to the graveyard of their owner. You may have controlled this creature when it left play, but it went to your opponent's graveyard. So your opponent will end up with 2/2 Zombie token creatures, and the Bridges from Below will remain in his graveyard.
Reanimating their Ichorid doesn't work.

EDIT: I meant it doesn't get rid of their Bridges.

Zach Tartell
02-17-2008, 06:06 PM
Folks, I don't mean to be a sour-puss, but this deck was submitted after the cut-off, which probably makes it unlikely to be judged. Additionally, we're well past the judging period.

Just a thought.

raharu
02-17-2008, 09:08 PM
I'm going to be honest. There is a reason this deck is bad. It rolls to removal, which is in almost every deck. Bounce kills this, as well as countermagic. You don't have any outs to Counterbalance (which IS in posession of very much clout and presence in Legacy at this time), which means that you can get you engine running (which every version of the deck you have posted has had a hard time doing) and still get raped viciously because your reanimation spells are all at one and two. Going any higher on the curve means that you are slowing the deck, and staying where you are means that you still get butthurt by one of the most prevalent decks in the metagame and almost every other compotenely built agro-control deck you run in to. It doesn't matter what you do, you require too muc setup and still roll to a Force of Will, considering you have absolutely no protection. Even if you ran 4x of every "combo" piece, AND Dark Ritual so that you went off on turn one with any measure of consistency, you roll to Force, Swords, almost all removal, Daze, so on and so forth. What to you do about a fucking Pacifism? Cry? Get some measure of protection, then you can try to defend this deck. I understand that you like it, I mean hell, even I've had my pet decks (AgroConComboTroll anyone??), but if it's bad, it's bad, hence why I Haven't touched A Golgari Grave Troll in almost a year.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 09:28 PM
results of the deck speak alot louder than words dude. just cause your little pet deck didnt do good and you scrubed out doesnt mean you got to take out your frustrations on decks that do work and you wish they didnt.

people will always hate, so who cares what you think? if you have no constructive criticism to say just shut your trap and keep on playing your jenk.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Folks, I don't mean to be a sour-puss, but this deck was submitted after the cut-off, which probably makes it unlikely to be judged. Additionally, we're well past the judging period.

Just a thought.

really? oh well. too bad. no worries, can i have this thread joined to the one in the established forums one.

mods please.

thanks

raharu
02-17-2008, 09:37 PM
RTFP (read the fucking post). I'm not hating, I'm saying that the deck is fucking terrible for the large list of reasons I've already supplied, plus those that have been subjected to your circular logic already. Also, I don't believe your results. I really don't believe your deck has "put up the results". It's a slow, easily stopped creature based combo deck with no protection that rolls to itself a good portion of the time. NO PROTECTION. You can't even make up for that by going off turn one. You can't kill by turn 5. You eat it to a resolved Nimble Mongoose and a few pieces of removal. You eat it to a resolved threat and any decent removal. Tell me you don't, and how you don't, and maybe I'll agree that this is viable outside of seeing a little play on a elememtary school lunch table.

thefreakaccident
02-17-2008, 09:51 PM
The deck thrives on those kind of decks however, as it is able to (through redundancy) overwhelm those opponents who are trying to find answers to your critters, and eventually win the damage race... I have had to play against his reanimator in all of its' incarnations for years.

I am a control player, I have played against him with every deck I have ever played (aside from my dreadnought, he has played against threshold in all of its' varients, landstill in all of its' varients, a bad UR MUC, and a very old scepter chant deck).

His blue varient is very resilient, it thrives in a control meta... just play it IRL, instead of on MWS (where anything can seem godly or terrible).

Mr Wiggl3s
02-17-2008, 09:54 PM
RTFP (read the fucking post). I'm not hating, I'm saying that the deck is fucking terrible for the large list of reasons I've already supplied, plus those that have been subjected to your circular logic already.

Let me tell you man, this deck may not place top4 every tourney, but i can guarantee that its a shit-ton more fun than any counterbalance-goyf deck your seeing at the tourneys %90 of the time

Cabal-kun
02-17-2008, 10:10 PM
Let me tell you man, this deck may not place top4 every tourney, but i can guarantee that its a shit-ton more fun than any counterbalance-goyf deck your seeing at the tourneys %90 of the time

There's a reason you see your Counterbalance Goyf decks. Because they're proven to be very competitive. Saying the deck is more fun than a competitive one is not a solid argument at all. Keep in mind that viability, not the fun level, is one of the two categories that the deck is judged in.

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 10:27 PM
RTFP (read the fucking post). I'm not hating, I'm saying that the deck is fucking terrible for the large list of reasons I've already supplied, plus those that have been subjected to your circular logic already. Also, I don't believe your results. I really don't believe your deck has "put up the results". It's a slow, easily stopped creature based combo deck with no protection that rolls to itself a good portion of the time. NO PROTECTION. You can't even make up for that by going off turn one. You can't kill by turn 5. You eat it to a resolved Nimble Mongoose and a few pieces of removal. You eat it to a resolved threat and any decent removal. Tell me you don't, and how you don't, and maybe I'll agree that this is viable outside of seeing a little play on a elememtary school lunch table.

made up results? hahahaha. dont need to do that buddy, ( are we acusing people of things youve done before? tsk tsk tsk...)

if you want proof of a "Historical Top 8" as people here label it. take a look at this thread funny man.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7785

read through and oh! realize your full of shit.

raharu
02-17-2008, 10:30 PM
The deck thrives on those kind of decks however, as it is able to (through redundancy) overwhelm those opponents who are trying to find answers to your critters, and eventually win the damage race... I have had to play against his reanimator in all of its' incarnations for years.

I am a control player, I have played against him with every deck I have ever played (aside from my dreadnought, he has played against threshold in all of its' varients, landstill in all of its' varients, a bad UR MUC, and a very old scepter chant deck).

His blue varient is very resilient, it thrives in a control meta... just play it IRL, instead of on MWS (where anything can seem godly or terrible).

Tell me how a resolved CB isn't going to decimate his deck. A hardcasted Akorma? I'm still doubious of this "redundancy" argument. 8 reanimate effects isn't going to overwhelm much, definately not 4 StP, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, and 3 CB, with cantriping to provide a method of gaining access to it in a quick and timely manner (not to mention actual redundancy).

raharu
02-17-2008, 10:34 PM
made up results? hahahaha. dont need to do that buddy, ( are we acusing people of things youve done before? tsk tsk tsk...)

if you want proof of a "Historical Top 8" as people here label it. take a look at this thread funny man.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7785

read through and oh! realize your full of shit.

Notice that you still have yet to prove that the deck is viable through anything begining to resemble actual logic (logical falicies and circular logic aside). I honestly doubt that there's much to your deck doing well. Rouge decks can do well any day of the week, and bite it just as often.


EDIT: Yes,I make up results in my non-existent tournament reports that I don't post ever. All the time, you know. At least once a day.

Di
02-17-2008, 10:40 PM
Calm down in here, or else my finger and mouse are going tag team with warnings.


Threads merged on request.

Quoth
02-17-2008, 10:41 PM
"8 reanimate effects isn't going to overwhelm much..."

That's why this deck plays 12. :wink:



Q

rodgon666
02-17-2008, 10:42 PM
8?

have you even read the decklist? it has 12 reanimation spells. inform yourself before arguing.

thing is a resolved counterbalance is not the end of the world. most decks in legacy have problems with a resolved counterbalance, thus its the most used control engine in legacy right now.
it really isnt all that effective till you have the top out, and you can easily cast creatures before that shit hits play.

you have as many cantrips as them and they are slowing themselves down as well as reducing their hands while defensively countering. if one creature of mine resolves it normally stalls them enough for me to find another one. then another form of disruption and then another. you cant counter everything.

get a counterbalance against thresh and its game over too right? and fish? and TES, and belcher... and countless other decks, and they do fine. Oh but since you have something weird against this deck it just cant get over it like the others i guess...

Oh and if they have counterbalance, swords force of will daze in mulitiples in hand good for them, i guess a players true colors will come out and youll see if your a good player and can deal with that or not, im guessing your one that cant.

ill just go ahead and disregard your dumb and unproductive comments and ask anyone who reads this to just ignore your stupid arguments since it seems like you havent even taken the time to look up the decklist and test it.

raharu
02-17-2008, 11:29 PM
You have 7 Cantrip effects (+ Intution is ten, but in my mind, Intuition = search). Most threshold decks have 10 including SDT, which is a recuring cantrip. I forgot Exhume. Sorry, my bad. Animate Dead and Reanimate can't target your best finisher (Akorma). Careful Study is card disadvantage.

WHAT DISRUPTION???

The question isn't "is your deck hurt by CB?", the question is "can you deal with it in a timely manner before they kill you?", and the answer is no. Don't tell me 2x Repeal is going to be enough. It's not. Maybe some Rushing Rivers in that slot? I would think that you need more than 2 though. Honestly, this needs a control shell. Something like this, perhaps?

Cantrip/ Tutor/ Draw: 12
Sensei's Divining Top x2
Brainstorm x4
Intuiton x3
Predict x3

Board Control: 5
Rushing River x3
Wipe Away x2

Disruption: 8
Cabal Therapy x4
Force of Will x4

Control (permanent): 3
Back to Basics x3 (this could easilly be something else)

Reanimation core: 14
You do this one, I'm not even going to touch it.

lands: 18
Polluted Delta x4
Swamp x6
Island x8

The Therapies look questionable, but it's a starting point. With 3 Predict, 3 Intuition, Top and Brainstorm, you shouldn't have a incredibly difficult time getting things in the hand/ yard. The rest is just about self-explanatory.

Go ahead and circular logic yourself around this one :) It's a rough list (I took about 10 minutes on it), but it has potential.

Jaiminho
02-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Animate Dead and Reanimate can't target your best finisher (Akorma).
How come Reanimate can't target Akroma?

EDIT: New Animate Dead rulings -- my bad.

enemyofarsenic
02-18-2008, 03:31 AM
I thought only animate dead won't work with Akroma, Angel of Wrath?
From what I know *she* can be "reanimate"d.

Team-Hero
02-18-2008, 03:42 AM
Swords to Plowshares doesn't help much against the Reanimator deck. I also thought that STPs were the answer against this deck; I was wrong. When an Exhume targets a Hellkite and you STP that Hellkite, it becomes a 10 point swing. On top, you still have to deal with 1/1 (*2/2) and 3/1 flyers coming your way. It all adds up in the end. That's my answer to STP. It's very vague, I know... but its been tested.

For the counterspells: there are not enough counterspells to deal with 12 reanimation spells backed up with some sub-par card advantage. The counterspells also tend to look ugly in your hand when your facing a 5/5+ creature on the board that managed to sly its way through your grasp. If anything, personally, I wouldn't even BOTHER countering the reanimation spells unless I really had to. I'm more worried about the spells that help this deck chuck its threats into the graveyard. Sure, it sounds stupid to counter a 1/1 Imp vs. the Exhume... but in the end it pays off... and that's IF you want to go the counterspell route.

For the Counterbalance: Divine Top needs to be present in order for it to be amazing. On top of that, there are only four copies of Counterbalance vs. twelve reanimation spells. Lets do the math.

12 reanimation spells x 10 monsters = 120 possible combinations
4 Tops x 4 Counterbalance = 16 possible combinations

I'm not saying that this deck doesn't lose to CounterTop-Goyf-Counter; what I am saying is that this deck is more powerful than what people make it out to be sometimes.

I used to be one of those people. Thinking that a splash of graveyard hate with a pinch of counters and removal would do the trick. My best solution for this deck has been bounce with four Layline of the Voids added in.

from Cairo
02-18-2008, 04:15 AM
Cabal Therapy x4

The Therapies look questionable...

Questionable? I think the word is awful. You have no creatures to sac except for ones you've reanimated.

I don't know if that shell is the best direction, but if going for 1cc discard in such a shell, Thoughtseize, please.

raharu
02-18-2008, 04:41 PM
Therapies are intended to go both ways, meaning they get threats in the yard (actually this is thier purpose most of the time), and can also hit bounce targets/ whatever in thier hand.

Mr Wiggl3s
02-18-2008, 06:01 PM
Questionable? I think the word is awful. You have no creatures to sac except for ones you've reanimated.

I don't know if that shell is the best direction, but if going for 1cc discard in such a shell, Thoughtseize, please.

You have 1/1 flyers, and 3/1 flyers, also it's a good response to some swords

Jaynel
02-18-2008, 06:09 PM
I don't think you'll be responding to ANYTHING with Cabal Therapy. And I'm gonna agree with from Cairo here: if you're only running large men, Cabal Therapy pales in comparison to Thoughtseize.

Jaiminho
02-18-2008, 06:43 PM
What's the plan against burn decks? It seems like burn eats this deck's face to death unless you get a turn 2 Phantom Nishoba on the board and you are on the play.

Mr Wiggl3s
02-18-2008, 07:48 PM
What's the plan against burn decks? It seems like burn eats this deck's face to death unless you get a turn 2 Phantom Nishoba on the board and you are on the play.

I have yet to figure this out...

raharu
02-18-2008, 07:58 PM
-4 Cabal Therapy, +4 Oona's Prowler. Better? In the burn match, I would side out however many Reanimates you can for the Show and tells in the board, and possibly run something in the vein of Exhalted Angel (something large with lifelink) in the sideboard.

DragoFireheart
02-18-2008, 08:01 PM
Solid burn decks will get a turn 3-4 win.

Solutions? Is there any way for this deck to handle the onslaught of burn spells?

Mr Wiggl3s
02-18-2008, 08:20 PM
Well, there is this one creature, which will patch the situation, and delay the game

Ghosts of the Innocent
If a source would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals half that damage, rounded down, to that creature or player instead.

Thats the only thing I've found that may actually almost pose something

Team-Hero
02-18-2008, 09:56 PM
What's the plan against burn decks? It seems like burn eats this deck's face to death unless you get a turn 2 Phantom Nishoba on the board and you are on the play.

Burn is one of the hardest matchups for this deck. I run Imp's Mischief until I can out damage them or get the Phantom Nishoba out. Playing against burn is not in the favor for this deck.

rodgon666
02-19-2008, 01:56 AM
i havent encountered burn decks on any mayor occasion, and neither on a large scale, yeah its not a good matchup but you can race them often. i dont see the need to change the deck thats working so nicely for a deck that barely represents itself in major numbers in tournaments.

Jaiminho
02-19-2008, 02:22 AM
I haven't tested, but I'd see any decks with many amounts of burn (Sligh and even Boros) to be able to crush this deck. Maybe this deserves a decent amount of sideboard cards, depending on the meta. And I don't really think this deck can often outrace a burn deck.

I played against Stax recently and I had to include Angel of Despair to be able to get rid of extremely annoying permanents (it may cost 7 life, but it's better than to cost you the game). In this kind of MU, you have enough time to cast an Intuition and search for it and, if there are no discard outlets on the board at that time, Gigapede would come handy -- in fact, it does for any 1-of crits that are essential to your play when getting them off an Intuition --, be it because of a Needle or for the simple fact of not having PImp or Prowler alive.

Rebuild seemed essential on the SB. Chalice at 1 + Chalice at 2 completely crush your game. For the same reason, Necromancy deserves to be looked at as a SB card. It works well with CIP stuff that can be reanimated again later for a doubled effect, as with Angel of Despair. It also dodges CB.

Finally, Tombstalker as an alternate win condition is totally awsome.

rodgon666
02-19-2008, 02:53 AM
burn decks that rely on their creatures like boros will often be overwhelmed by this deck. as those dont kill as fast. and its very hard for them to waste 2-4 burn spells to kill one of your critters that just come back. haven't tested much, i have played against a couple, but nothing more than just fun games. ill make sure to do some thorough testing wih boros decks.

Kiddie burn on the other hand is a bad matchup, yet people dont play it as often and therefore its not really considered in the sideboard in my case. if you do have alot of them in your meta add chill, or blue elemental blasts to your board and done deal.

and if you fear chalice, then run rebuild, yet ive to encounter a deck that has locked me out that easy. and stax decks are about even. it all depends on who goes first and what gets played.

dont play the angel. hes not that good except for those random matchups that you most likely will win regardless of him showing up.

also gigapede is BAD! please... read the opening post.

Mr Wiggl3s
02-19-2008, 12:13 PM
What about Ghosts of the Innocent against burn...?

Jaiminho
02-19-2008, 12:49 PM
[stuff]

also gigapede is BAD! please... read the opening post.
I did read, but I felt it was necessary against Stax.

@ Ghosts of the Innocent: Imagine this scenario, which is the common burn with reanimation scenario: You have taken damage from fetch lands (0-2 dmg) and may now be using a Reanimate to bring Ghost back (0 or 7 dmg). If you are on the play, you've taken one turn of damage (3 dmg); if you are on the draw, you've taken 2 turns of damage (7-9 dmg). Add all this up: on the play, 3-12 dmg; on the draw, 7-18 dmg.

So, if you bring Ghost with Reanimate and you are on the draw, you are already dead anyway. Still, there are 8 revive spells that will get it on turn 2. With any of them, it might be a nice reanimation spell. The big problem is you won't be able to fetch it, so you'll have to play it as a 4-of, which sucks. To win the race, you'll need to revive another creature, as they will draw around 2 points of damage per turn, but they are way ahead. Again, you can't use Reanimate.

Maybe it's not worth the effort to try and push too hard to win against a single deck, unless it's the deck to beat in one meta.

rodgon666
02-19-2008, 02:08 PM
exactly. unless your meta is full of burn ( in which case i would just switch out some critters like the bringer and some others for a full set of phanthom nishobas. and then i bet you you wont loose anymore. or at least a lot less.

he is really the only answer to burn, and you already have him to be fetched.

also reanimate is only 1/3 of your reanimation suite, so i wouldnt worry too much about the life loss.

TheLion
02-19-2008, 05:13 PM
For the burn matchup: Maybe Arbiter of Knollridge (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/2.html) can do the job. It is 1 turn faster, than Nishoba, concerning the life gain. Though I dont know if it is really good enough.

rodgon666
02-19-2008, 08:58 PM
no trample means that he will be chum blocked all day. by little things like mogg fanatic, and in boros decks by isamaru and some knights... and against most decks youll be the one with the higher life total, and you dont want to be ever in a position where you have to ask yourself if you want to bring the creature out or not... it should almost always be a hell yeah.

...how is he a turn faster than nishoba?

Michael Keller
02-19-2008, 10:02 PM
I had some major success with a re-animator build last year (came in 4th at KDLD III). Check out this thread for reference:

The Polar Express (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5663&highlight=polar+express)

No matter how you slice it, a well timed Extirpate will hurt. So will a Tormod's Crypt. You must have the necessary tools in order to protect yourself from opposing hate games 2 and 3. Take some of those ideals and apply them to your strategy. The idea is to hit them for as much as possible, as soon as possible. So a 24/24 trampler turn one is about as good as you're going to get.

Edit: Make that a 26/26 hasty trampler turn one.

Willoe
02-21-2008, 03:24 PM
I'll be condisering for a full set of nishobas. Seriosly, they are one the best creatures ever printed. To argument that statement, I would like to sum up some vital importances:

1. Lifelink. This is probably your only way to race a slowly set up tendrils combo deck, a fast aggro deck or burn.
2. Trample. Holy moly, this is just awesome! Even though it becomes 6/6 after combat, It's still nice to kill goyfyboy and inflict even more damage.
3. Pseudo indestuctible. This is the best ability, IMO. The fact that it doesn't die to cookie enourmous creatures, some extremely overpowered burn spell, or some other effect that would have killed any other creature is a huge plus.

The only thing most enourmous dudes miss are pro white or am I missing something?

enemyofarsenic
02-23-2008, 08:26 PM
True, additional 3 phantom nishoba's in the board will be good for burn or superfast aggro.

What are the latest lists that we have for this deck?

Willoe
02-24-2008, 08:20 AM
just thinking, has tolarian winds been tried in this deck? I think it would be really good!

rodgon666
02-24-2008, 02:28 PM
non selectively discarding your hand is bad, ive tested with it. it not that good.

THEchubbymuffin
02-25-2008, 11:38 PM
I've been testing this deck on MWS and I think that chain of vapors is better than repeal. simply because if I have a recursion spell in my hand (which is semi-common) I can use chain vapor on my hellkite, or my nishoba. Then discard those cards and exhume them back into play, which clears some creatures and refreshes nishoba counters. also you can target your own imp and sac land to get rid of a leyline turn 2, and your opponent most likely cant play it before you get a fatty out.

conboy31
02-25-2008, 11:46 PM
When this deck was posted in the other forum, I tossed in the idea of Blazing Archon MD as an auto win preboard vs Ichorid. It was aptly noted that that is true, but it is supbar in other matchups. I tend to agree.

However, today I noticed that Blazing Archon is an auto win vs Dragon Stompy pre and postboard. This leads me back to the potential single copy of Archon as it randomally becomes very relevant against certain decks.

Jaiminho
02-26-2008, 12:41 AM
Chain of vapor is an awfully limited card. It will only work when you target your own permanent or when you have no revived crits on the table. Even if the idea is to bounce a crypt, it would limit itself solely to these situations.

If you want to recur things, then just use another bounce spell. There are so many to choose from that won't ruin your day.

rodgon666
02-26-2008, 02:35 PM
chain vapors as a side board option is not that bad if you have a lot of black in your metagame... but i would only put it there IF! and only if your cluttered with decks with leyline of the void. the card itself as described before is good but very situational. its affected by counterbalance on a bigger scale than repeal and it doesnt net you a card. it is true that you might be able to get some extra use from your critters, and plays like this.

i play exhume...
i crypt you...
i chain vapors my dragon to my hand after the resolution of your crypt and before the exhume resolves..
i discard it to an Pimp/oonas prowler..

let exhume resolve take 5 more to the face.



but other that those very awesome situations it will most likely end up bouncing your critter from your opponents bouncing the spell back to ya.

once you have a creature out youll never want to bounce a spell an opponent plays. well almost never...

Media314r8
02-26-2008, 02:47 PM
Solid burn decks will get a turn 3-4 win.

With a GOD Hand:

Ex: opening hand: 4 (R 3 damage) 1 POP (for 4) 2 mountain

turn one: mountain, bolt
life total: 17
turn two: (draw fireblast) mountain, bolt, lava spike
life total: 11
turn three: (draw mountain) mountain, chain lightning, PoP, fireblast
life total: 0

nice hand, idiot.

More often, burn kills on turn 4, and turn 5s much, much more frequently than turn 3s, even on the draw.

If you can get a nishoba turn three vs burn, you should be fine. Forcing/dazing a spell like fireblast will likely buy you enough time as well, as even with the above situation, your opponent would have to topdeck a (r for 3 damage if you forced, two if you dazed) spell against you if you countered price or fireblast. As they DO run 30-33% lands, and their avg CMC is like 1.6, it is likely if the GOD hand had its fireblast countered, you'd still live until turn 4-7.

Jaiminho
02-26-2008, 02:59 PM
The thing is we don't use counters in this deck. Not in the "main" or "most used" version that is discussed here. Also, you can't use Reanimate against burn or you stand no chance.

Media314r8
02-26-2008, 03:04 PM
my apologies, i was mainly just refuting the claim of the consistent turn 3-4 burn kill.

Mr Wiggl3s
02-26-2008, 04:45 PM
Whats the plan against countertop-goyf decks?

raharu
02-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Cry.

It's Chalice at one and two, for almost all intents and purposes. It has already been admited that the deck rolls to chalice at one and two, which is unlikely, I will readilly conceede, but assembling the counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top engine is actually quite likely.

Team-Hero
02-26-2008, 05:40 PM
Cry.

It's Chalice at one and two, for almost all intents and purposes. It has already been admited that the deck rolls to chalice at one and two, which is unlikely, I will readilly conceede, but assembling the counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top engine is actually quite likely.

The deck could always change the sideboard to Wipe Away and Annul. I've done that.

Jaiminho
02-26-2008, 05:58 PM
Or maybe pack some Necromancy SB against Chalice and CB. Also, Tombstalker increases the chance of beating these decks. It is a very solid alternate win condition.

rodgon666
02-26-2008, 11:51 PM
people.... necromancy sucks... for the fourth time...


you dont have that bad of a matchup against goyf or counterbalance decks. and if your that worried just add more repeals and wipeaways.

f|i[p]
02-27-2008, 11:35 AM
I was building a reanimation deck and using yours as a skeleton, but I really wanted to have 2 or more akroma.. and I saw this post of yours as one of the reasons not to include her as a 2 of.

:she cant be brought back with 1/3 of your reanimation suite, animate dead and her are a no go once again.

So I was being hard headed and went to check on the rulings at starcitygames.

Q: Akroma, Angel of Wrath is in the graveyard. I cast Animate Dead. What happens? I've been told two things: that Akroma will remain in play without the Animate Dead, and that she will go to the graveyard. I've also been told that one of these rulings is old and was changed. Which is correct now?

A: Here is how it currently works. Animate Dead resolves and comes into play. When it does, its comes-into-play ability triggers. You target Akroma with this triggered ability. When this triggered ability resolves, Akroma is put into play and Animate Dead become an Aura. It will try attach itself to Akroma, but will not, due to Akroma's protection from black ability. Then, because it is not attached to anything, this Aura will go to the graveyard, but Akroma will remain in play.

It is true that this is not how this interaction has always worked. The rules that govern what an Aura can be attached to were tweaked last summer when the Aura subtype was introduced. In the past, local enchantments could become attached to a protected permanent; now they cannot become attached at all.

Just a thought

Nightmare
02-27-2008, 11:52 AM
;211282']
It is true that this is not how this interaction has always worked. The rules that govern what an Aura can be attached to were tweaked last summer when the Aura subtype was introduced. In the past, local enchantments could become attached to a protected permanent; now they cannot become attached at all.This ruling is out of date. From the Gatherer updates on Animate Dead:


If the creature card put into play has Protection from Black (or a similar effect that prevents Animate Dead from legally being attached), then it will fail to become attached and it as per Rule 212.4k, which states that an Aura trying to move onto an illegal permanent will stay where it is. Then the Animate Dead will go to the graveyard as an Aura that is not enchanting anything. This will sacrifice the creature as well, as stated by the card text. [D'Angelo 2007/10/20]

Mr Wiggl3s
02-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Very out of date, you can exhume, or reanimate her, or if you really want to use animate dead on her stifle the sac'ing part and you can do it

rodgon666
02-28-2008, 01:21 PM
hahaha, using a stifle on that would be bad too...

hahahaha


seeing as this is yet another page in the books of this thread ill post up my latest list.

Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
2x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard

3x umezawas jitte/ tombstalker/wipeaway
1x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell

Willoe
02-28-2008, 01:31 PM
Just edit the opening post, it's easier IMO.

And that 61st card...

I don't know if you have to make it 61 cards, but it's just so strange and awkward. Can't you cut i.e. a brainstorm? It has literally nothing to do with the reanimation plan anyway :)

Other than that, it's a good deck for sure. What I'd like to see is more protection and some better creatures :P But that's up to you, I don't play the deck...

Jaiminho
02-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Why only 1 Tombstalker? You can always cast one from hand if you need to... I think you should raise that to 2 or something.

rodgon666
02-28-2008, 02:22 PM
the reason theres only 1 is because you never want to see more than one in your opening hand. i mean you could always reanimate one, yet most of the time his advantage is to play him form hand, and its not likely that youll get 12+ cards in your yard early on in the game to count.

61 cards is my preference and has worked out for me, i consider it more of a lucky streak charm.

but dont cut a brainstorm for it, cut the watery grave. brainstorm is good specially with 8 fetchands to shuffle what you dont need.

rodgon666
02-28-2008, 04:30 PM
i would recommend taking out the therapies for 2 more fatties.
specially including sundering titans to the mix.

with only 9 critters youll often find yourself fetching very deep until you get one, cutting an oonas prowler hurts your secondary win conditions.

so -2 therapies and + 2 critters, at least one of them being the sundering titan.

and isnt that an awfully large SB?

24 cards?....

rodgon666
02-29-2008, 02:12 PM
Another tourney tonight, im going to run the decklist i last posted. ill post up a tourney report ASAP.

nodahero
03-03-2008, 12:32 AM
After 5 rounds of swiss today I have learned one thing about this deck. Sundering titan is not that good except against 3 or 4 color decks. I never once found him to be very effectice against anything really. THough he was a nice roadblock for all the goyf and crushers I had to deal with. For refernce I use Rodgon666's most recently posted list minus the watery grave and i swaped the bringer for a furry Akroma to a rather splendid effect. I found red akroma to be better in testing on MWS in comparison to the bringer mainly because it either tended to bite the bullet almost immediately or simply sat back giving me cards that would have been unneeded if it had been something else. The major boon of FAkroma is the abundance of swords running around here.

I lost one round the whole day and that was due to horrid luck on my part and my oppoent have triple sinkhole on the play game one and me not drawing a card and him going swamp rit sinkholeing my island and then thoughtseize ripping out my study after seeing that i had an island in hand and no swamp in hand thus cutting off my other discard enablers. I didnt play the study turn one due to no fattys in hand but instead an army of prowlers which i had thought would fight to the bitter end but they never showed up. In hindsight knowing he was playing essentially a green variant of deadguy for goyf I shoulda prolly mulled but...

In hindsight maybe i shoulda studied turn one instead but then again he woulda sunk my island and ripped out one of the 2 exhumes i woulda drawn in all likely (the exhumes were my next two draws as i got the shit kicked outa me followed by an animate dead at which point i concedded).

Mr Wiggl3s
03-03-2008, 04:47 PM
i would recommend taking out the therapies for 2 more fatties.
specially including sundering titans to the mix.

with only 9 critters youll often find yourself fetching very deep until you get one, cutting an oonas prowler hurts your secondary win conditions.

so -2 therapies and + 2 critters, at least one of them being the sundering titan.

and isnt that an awfully large SB?

24 cards?....

Sundering was cool when i used him... but he just really didn't seem to be that productive.

The SB is combined, for cereal tourneys, it will probably look like,

SB: 1 Oona's Prowler
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Annul

For fun:
SB: 1 Oona's Prowler
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Echoing Truths
SB: 3 Layline of the Void

Still working on it =/

Next tourney is the 23rd

Team-Hero
03-03-2008, 09:53 PM
Instead of the Red Akroma, I much rather use another Simic Sky Swallower or a Quicksilver Dragon.

enemyofarsenic
03-08-2008, 01:53 AM
Let's hope that shadowmoor gives reanimator some more goodies =]

I don't know if this would work, it says "when you play" so I think it needs to be casted from your hand to get the special ability other than reanimating it...

Looks bad ass though...

http://www.germagic.de/news/demigod_rev.jpg

Dark_Cynic87
03-08-2008, 06:22 AM
That won't work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but reanimating creatures means "putting them into play" as opposed to "playing" them. I'm lovin' the B/R split cc Avatars, though. Play an Avatar of Discord, toss a couple o' these, play a third (This is nonsense as it would never fuckin' happen)...But you could Intuition for them, get one, toss 2, play it and have 3x 5/4 Flying Hasters that are out of smother range? Since with haste, that's a pretty likely 15 damage, and one turn to pull off a wrath/Damnation , on what, turn 4 with accel.? Not bad...

Anyway, I'm curious as to why this deck doesn't run countermagic? Blue and no FoW's, dazes, or anything? I saw some Annuls in a board, but other than that...It would seem like you would want to. Protection, graveyard hate, etc. Do you scoop to Ensnaring Bridge game 1 and count on bounce for games 2/3? Same with Humility? how do you get around Chalice at 1/2? Your bounce cardsa are 1 and 2 cc when it comes to bouncing CotV's. Why isn't Wipe Away played instead?

I'm sure these have been tested/suggested/questioned, I'm just curious.

pce.

enemyofarsenic
03-08-2008, 07:03 AM
That won't work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but reanimating creatures means "putting them into play" as opposed to "playing" them. I'm lovin' the B/R split cc Avatars, though. Play an Avatar of Discord, toss a couple o' these, play a third (This is nonsense as it would never fuckin' happen)...But you could Intuition for them, get one, toss 2, play it and have 3x 5/4 Flying Hasters that are out of smother range? Since with haste, that's a pretty likely 15 damage, and one turn to pull off a wrath/Damnation , on what, turn 4 with accel.? Not bad...

Anyway, I'm curious as to why this deck doesn't run countermagic? Blue and no FoW's, dazes, or anything? I saw some Annuls in a board, but other than that...It would seem like you would want to. Protection, graveyard hate, etc. Do you scoop to Ensnaring Bridge game 1 and count on bounce for games 2/3? Same with Humility? how do you get around Chalice at 1/2? Your bounce cardsa are 1 and 2 cc when it comes to bouncing CotV's. Why isn't Wipe Away played instead?

I'm sure these have been tested/suggested/questioned, I'm just curious.

pce.


True about the demigod of revenge =[ but if it was otherwise, it would surely be kickass! hehe...

About the countermagic not being present in this deck, according to the pioneer of this deck, this is designed to be an aggressive deck. reanimator should be the one doing the harassing, not defending nor protecting (well there are some key sideboard cards depending on the meta ahehe). I agree on the aggressive approach and putting maindeck countermagic to this deck
will somehow make this deck slower...

But still... it is a fun deck to play with =]

enemyofarsenic
03-08-2008, 07:12 AM
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/previewbooster/SHM_booster_2.jpg

Haha, I hope this one has a very good ability worthy to be included in Reanimator =]

The converted casting cost of this is 7. im sensing this could be a kickass card hahaha, i might be wrong.

Barook
03-08-2008, 07:21 AM
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/previewbooster/SHM_booster_2.jpg
The converted casting cost of this is 7. im sensing this could be a kickass card hahaha, i might be wrong.

It's a common, so you're going to be wrong.

enemyofarsenic
03-08-2008, 07:24 AM
Dang, how did you know that this is a common? I'm not sure haha...

nodahero
03-08-2008, 12:26 PM
The reason we do not use countermagic is as stated we plan to be the aggressor and not to mention we pack so much redudnacy that in some miniscule way they might as well be counters... typically all we would do is protect our reanimation spells because leyline starts in so no counters... crypt can come down to soon or often to be able for us to effectively stop, and well extirpate... I think you know that answer.

As for the bounce problem we do run repeals in the main which (I run 3 instead of 2 like rodgons build) and have never had signifcant problems in any of my matches.

Jaiminho
03-08-2008, 01:47 PM
I really don't think this set will give any new crits for reanimation, since they are always having narrow abilities when they are big. Or simply suck.

technogeek5000
03-08-2008, 09:41 PM
This deck needs more Nicol bolas.

enemyofarsenic
03-09-2008, 12:12 AM
Nicol Bolas would be nice except for its upkeep, so i guess you're just kidding ahehe...

r0ckstAr
03-10-2008, 04:06 PM
I am really interested in this deck, but here in France AggroLoam is becoming the main archetype and I'd like to know if someone has tested it and if this is a correct matchup ?

rodgon666
03-10-2008, 11:10 PM
aggro loam is a relatively easy matchup for you. even though they have a clock, you just simply have a faster one and they cant deal with too much power. only if they run humility your in trouble.

r0ckstAr
03-11-2008, 05:17 AM
Okay, but that slows them down too, giving me the time to find a repeal or an echoing truth g2/3

Thanks !

Mr Wiggl3s
03-11-2008, 07:18 PM
aggro loam is a relatively easy matchup for you. even though they have a clock, you just simply have a faster one and they cant deal with too much power. only if they run humility your in trouble.

Ya lol, that upkeep is a bitch.... Nicol would totally win games though

Michael Keller
03-11-2008, 07:53 PM
aggro loam is a relatively easy matchup for you. even though they have a clock, you just simply have a faster one and they cant deal with too much power. only if they run humility your in trouble.

Or Maze of Ith.

Or Tabernacle.

Or Glacial Chasm.

Illissius
03-11-2008, 08:07 PM
In what universe does Aggro Loam run any of those cards? Humility?! Chasm? Aggro Loam likes attacking.

Nihil Credo
03-11-2008, 08:21 PM
I think someone's confusing Aggro Loam with 43 Lands, which is indeed about as tough for Reanimator as Aggro Loam is easy.

Illissius
03-12-2008, 06:34 AM
That was my first thought, but I've never seen a 43lands list with Humility, either. Eternal Garden, maybe.

Mr Wiggl3s
03-12-2008, 03:04 PM
Or Maze of Ith.

Or Tabernacle.

Or Glacial Chasm.

Maze is eh... Just delays
Tabernacle is no problem
Glacial Chasm... Its eh when we side in

Willoe
03-12-2008, 06:54 PM
Reanimator might be the agressor. But isn't lightning fast combo GG g1? SI, QSI, Belcher can roll you over without protection, no?

Please don't consider this as flaming, I'm playing it as well, but I've always had problems against combo since they just goldfish against you.

rodgon666
03-13-2008, 05:09 AM
yeah turn 1-3 combo in the form of belcher and SI and the such beat you game 1 almost always.

after sideboard its still a game loss if you get killed turn 1 or 2 without a stifle.

if you get passed those initial turns you have a very high probability of winning.

you dont have a good game towards fast combo, but you have a very good game against most everything else.

Jaiminho
03-13-2008, 03:59 PM
Against protected combo, Stifle alone does nothing. What's the solution?

rodgon666
03-13-2008, 07:08 PM
what combo in particular are you talking about?

ask about a specific deck and ill be able to give you stats and also strategy to beat them. In general all combos have protection of some sort, so all combo is protected combo.

Willoe
03-13-2008, 07:32 PM
The dude's talking about TES.

And yes, stifle does something, do the TES player really resolve a Chant every game? Stifle buys you enough time to win in most situations, but with Orim's Chant and no force on that, you've lost to say the least.

rodgon666
03-13-2008, 07:37 PM
yes against TES, stifle does alot more than you might think,

after probably winning game 1 they most likely will not side in extra protection and will try to go off regardless of them having it or not. if thats the case a single stifle will most likely buy you enough time to win the game. if they are a smart player your probability of winning is small, even after sideboard.

these style of decks are this decks worst matchup's but they are not un winnable.

against TES, propaganda sideboard eliminates 1 kill condition completely ( empty the warrens ) and echoing truth does the same. but if they try to kill you with either belcher or tendrils like they should then you have a very bad day unless you have that cards you need.

raharu
03-14-2008, 12:45 AM
++controlshell??

rodgon666
03-19-2008, 03:59 PM
if your asking y we dont have a controll shell i believe that i have already explained it. please go back and read the thread. thanks

raharu
03-19-2008, 04:23 PM
I have. The explination was quite poor. A control shell would help the problems you have in various matches.

There was a deck a while ago that was a pacts + reanimated Platinum angel control deck that was based off of a Vintage deck. I'll go find the link, as is should be helpful.

EDIT: linky (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7655)

Mr Wiggl3s
03-19-2008, 05:29 PM
what's control shell?

Jaiminho
03-19-2008, 07:03 PM
Control spells to support your win conditions, I'd say.

4815162342
03-19-2008, 09:33 PM
Hey Rod. Where are the latest results? You forget to post them?

rodgon666
03-20-2008, 05:08 AM
havent forgoten, ive just been too busy to play in any large tournaments. i should be going to one on friday ill make sure to let you all know about the results there.

Jaiminho
03-22-2008, 12:54 AM
Your deck needs more Tombstalker and less Akroma. Animate Dead + Akroma == lameness. Having an alternate win conditon (that doesn't require 1 and 2cc spells and that goes to play easily) owns.

Do you really need Annul? Affinity? Stax? Maybe Rebuild is better. (EDIT: I forgot Annul counters enchantments too)

I still advocate Gigapede in the mainboard to improve Intuition (when you have no pimps or oonas aboard). Anyway, I don't have enough experience with this deck to say if it really does improve it.

artmac
03-22-2008, 04:29 AM
I cant seem to sleep so thought I'd poke around and back up this variant. I just finished a tournament coming in 2nd place after none other than my buddy Rodgon himself getting 1st here in final 5th round and I can say most of his points he makes are justified by his swift 2 game walk over me. I was playing Goblins w/ swords splash best variant I feel for this match, now it still awful for me being like 20/80 his huge favor, not quite a auto loss but darn close ^^.

Anyways the Imps stay at 4x as its a good lackey chump and discard outlet before it trades. He did this both games following with the solid reanimation his turn, Hellkite and Akroma had its way with me both games. The only really solid change in game 2 I saw was jitte which ensures the win against aggro decks as it is charging up on a large evasive flyer.

Besides the lopsided favor of this matchup I think that there are a few things still that can smooth the deck out overall. The most recent list he just played with cuts:
cabal therapy and
symbiotic wurm and the
tidesprout tyrant.

I played the list some with these cards still in and feel the synergy is still stronger, also the strength with animate dead comboing. What he added were more oona's main but cabal is good enough outlet for yourself or option of hitting your opponents hand is strong. Perhaps the 2cc of oona over mainly 1cc discard outlets is what sits in his favor but there are much stronger plays if just able to discard using 1 mana then the second mana to reanimate or manipulate deck some more beats, prefer Oona at 1x. Now I just might have to build this for a rematch. :)

rodgon666
03-23-2008, 05:52 AM
yet another Undefeated tournament.

ill post the tournament report soon.

hahaha.

more on some changes to the main, ill explain in the report.

Elficidium
03-23-2008, 06:17 AM
I was playing Goblins w/ swords splash best variant I feel for this match
Warren weirding > Swords, it doesn't give him life, it's tutorable and doesn't target, so it can hit the Sky Swallower or protection creatures. And The black splash gives you gravehate from the SB.

Anyway, I'm quite interested in the new developments.

Mr Wiggl3s
03-23-2008, 09:24 AM
This deck is so good... If i were a better magic player, i would've finished alot higher

the only deck thats seriously causing me problems is landstill.

i beat countertopgoyf's no problem

Nihil Credo
03-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Warren weirding > Swords, it doesn't give him life, it's tutorable and doesn't target, so it can hit the Sky Swallower or protection creatures. And The black splash gives you gravehate from the SB.
Warren Weirding requires you to also find a second piece of removal, else it will just eat an Imp or Prowler.

It's almost definitely the better removal for Goblins, just not in this specific matchup.

Kevdog
03-24-2008, 06:17 PM
One thing I notice is the lack of the description of the environment in which rodeigo does so well in. For those who have not played at game empire, the local tourney (26 players avg) is one where swords to plowshares, counterspells, and any other generally accepted good control cards are hardly played. If they are seen, their pilots are generally incompetent or don't know what is critical to hit. As such; baby burn, reanimator, and any turn 1, 2, or 3 combo decks usually go unchallenged until they face each other in the finals. This is what enables rodrigo to dominate without any disruption or control, no one is stoping his game which is way better than the average. Post board, people are not willing to play 4-ofs narrow cards to hate this deck out (gilded drake, coffin purge...) because of the randomness of the environment.

TheKingslayer
03-24-2008, 08:11 PM
I surely hope the young players running some of these cards could make the ultimate descision to swords the large, looming Akroma, that is across the table.

rodgon666
03-24-2008, 09:46 PM
ok so once again i got some free time and went over to my favorite game place GE.

i decided that until i dont place with this deck im not going to play anything else, i might switch it up a little just for testing but nonetheless... same deck till i dont get top 3.

i tried a completely different route this time around. Eliminating Bounce and intuitions from the main and running cards that would allow me to get by even if people play main deck hate. -2 intuitions -2 repeal + 3 jittes +1 show and tell, just to see how this approach would do against the meta.
also this allowed me to play some more cards in the sideboard against combo mainly just extirpate.

here is the list i played:
Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Brainstorm
1x Show and tell

Artifacts
3x Jitte

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Garza something queen..
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard
4x Extirpate
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell

Heres the mini tournament report as promised.

round 1 ... dude with mono green elves..

Game 1: a turn 3 bringer followed by a dragon ends it quick.

Game 2: he has no sideboard so i dont sideboard. i just win onn the back of a late tombstalker and prowlers.


Round2 ... dude with suicide black.

Game 1: he gets a trun 1 hippie i get a turn 2 akroma...^_^

Game 2: he gets me to discard creautures when i didnt have any discard outlets and just reanimation in hand, a dragon and a titan doom him.


Round3... Dude with infi removal..bgw control

Game 1: firs game was interesting, not much fight from him but i dont have much steam either, after a couple of critters hit play very slowly for me i just end up winning.

Game 2: leyline opening hand and he keeps me off show and tell with discard... second one shows up too late.

Game 3: no leyline for him and a turn 3 show and tell for a titan wrecks him enough to ride its back for the win.


round4 dude with BWG aggro

Game 1: i get an imp and an oonas and a jitte, he kills the oonas and the imp goes all the way with jitte.. ( no reanimation done )

Game 2: Pretty much the same shit. except a show and tell brings a dragon in for me and a doran fro him, unfortunately for him i get a jitte and reanimate his dudes for blockers. ( no fatty reanimation again )


round5 art with RW goblins.

Game 1: he goes first plays a lackey, i play an imp and block his attack and discard a dragon. bring it back and attack til he dies.

Game 2: Pretty similar, except akroma comes into play instead and a later creature just makes it game


This version did quite well and having the jittes in the main just makes al your creatures big threats, yes even putrid imps. all your dudes have evasion. and i didnt miss the repeals since i lways had two ways of winning even with leylines and crypts. With 8 low cost critters and reanimation you are never going to be in lack of a creauture to equip and it works as life gain if you need it to be.
the show and tell is also nice to have even if just a one of in the deck in te main, it wrecks random shit, ill think of something if i find out later its not neccesary.

Intuition was missed but not to the point where it affected gameplay, more testing without it needs to be done on my part to see if i want to cut it, but if you dont run the jitte version dont think about cutting them at all, it finds what you need if you dont have the beatdown option.

Rood
03-24-2008, 10:20 PM
I like the S&T tech from the board when your oponents board in GY hate for you. This version of Reanimator surely has to be the most consistant list I've seen yet congrats Rod.

rodgon666
03-24-2008, 10:27 PM
thanks! i worked hard on it.

it also helps since no one has caught on in my tourney spot and it helps alot that people cant really side in that much.

its a perfect metagame call for SD.

ive played 9 tournaments with it and all them have been top 3 at least.

Nosomo.
03-25-2008, 12:44 AM
thanks! i worked hard on it.

it also helps since no one has caught on in my tourney spot and it helps alot that people cant really side in that much.

its a perfect metagame call for SD.

ive played 9 tournaments with it and all them have been top 3 at least.

Its is still doing that good even though I have been gone for 9 months? Wow rod you get a oreo.

GiantGrowth
03-25-2008, 01:01 AM
I tested a bit with this, and the only real problem I had was to many threats and no reanimation, or to much reanimation and no threats. although several hands I kicked myself for not mulling. has anyone else had any trouble like this? or was it just my bad mulliganing or MWS shuffler.

rodgon666
03-25-2008, 02:20 AM
Its is still doing that good even though I have been gone for 9 months? Wow rod you get a oreo.

yup still going strong. just been fine tuning it to be at its best.. the new sets have added nothing usefull or worth even testing... which sucks balls.

and MWS sucks balls...its randomizer is horrible and i seem to have the same problems with that there. just proxy up the deck and play like that with it. hahahaha

Mr Wiggl3s
03-25-2008, 08:47 PM
Man im going to mainboard 2 akroma's for a better chance of getting it in the opening hand

kabal
03-26-2008, 09:28 AM
U/G/w:
swords makes this matchup slightly more disadvantageous than the other versions of thresh. Yet its still pretty good, id say very slightly in your favor.
MVP: Sky Swallower and Sundering Titan.


Is this really true?? White Threshold typically plays counterbalance, which pretty much shuts you down. With cards like FoW, Daze and Spell Spare I am still perplex how you can be favored. How much counter magic is actually played in your meta? I don't see any MB disrupt. That is why I feel cards like Cabal Therapy are better than Prowler.

rodgon666
03-26-2008, 02:10 PM
the thing is, if they dont counter ALL your threats then they loose. if they let one fatty and you have alot of little critters ( oonas are a 3/1 flyer for two for christ sake!) they either have to choose to stop your reanimation with a heavy counter hand , which leaves them with no real threats, or a heavy creature hand, which you will be able to beat in speed, thresh kills very slow.

if you have the decision to swords a 3/1 or a 2/2 or wait till the big dude comes.... most people will wait and in the mean while theyll be taking 8- 10 damage and then with shot like dragons even if they kill it they took damage or sundering titan they loose all theyre land. in the meanwhile they run into the desicion of either countering more critters coming into play and jittes or your reanimation win conditions.

Yoo can only have sooo many counters, and they only run 8 i think ( daze, force?) and counterbalance is not too hard to play around. its not an autoloss if they play it. trust me. you just have to start thinking. if they lso have a top then it gets complicated, yet not impossible.

Mr Wiggl3s
03-28-2008, 10:15 PM
Is this really true?? White Threshold typically plays counterbalance, which pretty much shuts you down. With cards like FoW, Daze and Spell Spare I am still perplex how you can be favored. How much counter magic is actually played in your meta? I don't see any MB disrupt. That is why I feel cards like Cabal Therapy are better than Prowler.

Its in our favor, they can only counter so many things turn 1-2-3 and 4 like rodgon said

Mr Wiggl3s
03-30-2008, 02:55 PM
Hay yall i've been playing with my land setup like this:

3x mire
3x delta
4x underground sea
2x watery grave
4x swamp
1x island

And it's still going strong....

rodgon666
03-30-2008, 04:15 PM
17 lands is kinda cutting it too close... i wouldnt, but if its working good for ya then good job!

Team-Hero
03-30-2008, 05:26 PM
17 lands is kinda cutting it too close... i wouldnt, but if its working good for ya then good job!

But he's only playing 6 fetch lands. Most of his lands are 'real lands'.

rodgon666
03-31-2008, 02:56 AM
having less fetchlands is irrelevent. the real deal is the fact that you will not see as many lands opening hand as you would like a good 15% of the time, the deck already cuts it close with 19-20 depending on the build and in my own opinion with the deck i would not put any less than 18.

Nosomo.
03-31-2008, 03:36 AM
One thing I notice is the lack of the description of the environment in which rodeigo does so well in. For those who have not played at game empire, the local tourney (26 players avg) is one where swords to plowshares, counterspells, and any other generally accepted good control cards are hardly played. If they are seen, their pilots are generally incompetent or don't know what is critical to hit. As such; baby burn, reanimator, and any turn 1, 2, or 3 combo decks usually go unchallenged until they face each other in the finals. This is what enables rodrigo to dominate without any disruption or control, no one is stoping his game which is way better than the average. Post board, people are not willing to play 4-ofs narrow cards to hate this deck out (gilded drake, coffin purge...) because of the randomness of the environment.

Um... you play control almost every week, even when I used to go there and you never top 8'd when I was there and rodrigo did conistanty. And last time landstill was still getting played by 2-3 people per tournie and still each getting top 8's almost every time. and most of the time Landstill always played in finals. If you want to dis Rodrigo try beating him.

rodgon666
03-31-2008, 03:54 AM
truth is control is played quite a bit in my meta, aggro control and just control are about 40-60 % of the decks played. from thresh, landstill, and also Black white control, and 4 color aggro control, besides from the random mono blue shit and other lockdown decks... id say alot of our meta here is control. and at the same time you see alot of people playing control on the finals. yet i do good...

so i guess the deck does good against control like ive mentioned before... or maybe its just me... ^_^

GiantGrowth
03-31-2008, 08:03 AM
the thing is, if they dont counter ALL your threats then they loose. if they let one fatty and you have alot of little critters ( oonas are a 3/1 flyer for two for christ sake!) they either have to choose to stop your reanimation with a heavy counter hand , which leaves them with no real threats, or a heavy creature hand, which you will be able to beat in speed, thresh kills very slow.

if you have the decision to swords a 3/1 or a 2/2 or wait till the big dude comes.... most people will wait and in the mean while theyll be taking 8- 10 damage and then with shot like dragons even if they kill it they took damage or sundering titan they loose all theyre land. in the meanwhile they run into the desicion of either countering more critters coming into play and jittes or your reanimation win conditions.

Yoo can only have sooo many counters, and they only run 8 i think ( daze, force?) and counterbalance is not too hard to play around. its not an autoloss if they play it. trust me. you just have to start thinking. if they lso have a top then it gets complicated, yet not impossible.

How do you play around counterbalance? (not trying to start an argument, really just don't know how you would with reanimator)

Mr Wiggl3s
03-31-2008, 12:03 PM
How do you play around counterbalance? (not trying to start an argument, really just don't know how you would with reanimator)

Countertop is what kills because most of the time out shit cost's 1 (instant counter) or 2... So it's hard... Show and Tell is what we use to get around it


having less fetchlands is irrelevent. the real deal is the fact that you will not see as many lands opening hand as you would like a good 15% of the time, the deck already cuts it close with 19-20 depending on the build and in my own opinion with the deck i would not put any less than 18.

Ya... I have 9 islands, combined with 8 drawing cards... it's not hard to get a land

enemyofarsenic
04-01-2008, 02:58 AM
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/serious/tf80_nyrmew909.jpg

Haha, let's reanimate this one.

rodgon666
04-01-2008, 04:54 AM
hahaha. if you made a deck with reanimation and dreadnought stifle effects. then hell yeah!

hahahaha. im really digging the art in this set.

Thehunter820
04-01-2008, 11:09 PM
hahahaha. im really digging the art in this set.

yea the art work is very nice :)

enemyofarsenic
04-03-2008, 02:41 AM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68741&d=1207195305

How about this one guys? =] Pseudo Angel of Despair ahehehe.

rodgon666
04-03-2008, 05:41 AM
not bad.. not bad at all. worth a try.

i might have to make the build with some therapies again and try this dude out. in multiples too. semi nishoba, semi angel of despair. well see.

enemyofarsenic
04-03-2008, 06:02 AM
not bad.. not bad at all. worth a try.

i might have to make the build with some therapies again and try this dude out. in multiples too. semi nishoba, semi angel of despair. well see.

And semi animate dead by its own too, haha.

rodgon666
04-04-2008, 01:59 PM
one more tournament tonight, ill post results up soon.

rodgon666
04-05-2008, 03:51 AM
4-0-1 in the tournament today. another undefeated tournament for this deck.

ill post up the detailed report soon, but heres a small recap of what i played.

BW counter/top control: 2-1

Spanish Inquisition: 2-1 (yeah i beat a turn two kill deck! sucka! hahaha)

BWG Infi Removal: 2-1

Draco explosion: ID

BGW aggro with Goyf and Tombstalker: 2-0

Same list as last time only the sideboard changed a bit, i put in two more tombstalkers but i never sided them in.. they seemed irrelevent and most f the time i just sided in stifles and the show and tells.

Go Go REanimator!

thats 11 tourneys in the top 3,

8 first place wins:

1 second place

2 third place win due to tiebreakers.

and people are starting to barely add alot of hate to the decks... unfortunately it doesnt work too well against this. ^_^

raharu
04-05-2008, 03:58 AM
Would a few MD Show and Tells be a valid inclusion? They dodge chalice/ top and don't rely on a discard outlet/ aren't voulnerable to GY hate.

Willoe
04-05-2008, 08:17 AM
The problem with a maindecked SAT is that you often don't know what your opponent is playing and therefore can put an i.e. exalted angel into play while you have only a slightly better creature, say nishoba or something. The danger of SAT is that your opponent cheats creature into play then slaughters yours. Yeah, that hurts.

The upside of wasting SB slots is that they can give you a much better game against countertop engines (even though if they're playing with goyfs, your dude should at least be a little more dangerous), burn or anything with a little low on creatures. As we all know, angelstompy doesn't play with THAT many creatures, but I was of course just talking about the risk.

I play 4 SAT in my sideboard.

And it rocks! :D

rodgon666
04-05-2008, 01:50 PM
look at my last decklist... it has one Show and tell main deck. im really not worried about what the other person plays. most of the time i will either kill their creature ( dragons) or destroy their board ( titan ) or hell simply not be able to kill the critter ( SSS ) so im actually way! better off than thell ever be off the show and tell, and you just have to try and play it when you think they only have spells in hand anyways.

Willoe
04-05-2008, 02:19 PM
Maybe it's just me who doesn't like it. I've tested it MD, and it wasn't really cool. I think it's better SB. I've already explained why, so I'll not gonna do it again. Anyway, what do you think of woodfall primus?

Pltnmngl
04-05-2008, 03:09 PM
Rodgon, what does your list currently look like?

Mr Wiggl3s
04-05-2008, 10:21 PM
Rodgon, what does your list currently look like?

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=211618&postcount=110

Vanco
04-06-2008, 10:36 AM
Is the list with jittes mainboard better than the 'normal' list? Which list would be the best in a meta with a lot of aggroloam, and also a lot of (aggro)control? Currently, I know nothing about reanimator but I'm planning to build the list and test it.

Mr Wiggl3s
04-06-2008, 04:05 PM
O ya, i guess this is the new list.


Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Brainstorm
1x Show and tell

Artifacts
3x Jitte

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Garza something queen..
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard
4x Extirpate
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell

IMO Jittes + This deck = a no

Pltnmngl
04-06-2008, 05:20 PM
IMO Jittes + This deck = a no

I can actually see why he would run them. Sounds like a good idea to me.

rodgon666
04-06-2008, 05:58 PM
Is the list with jittes mainboard better than the 'normal' list? Which list would be the best in a meta with a lot of aggroloam, and also a lot of (aggro)control? Currently, I know nothing about reanimator but I'm planning to build the list and test it.

the old version with intuition in the main is way better for your metagame, its also alot better at random metagames. the reason i modded mine was because im seeing alot more hate in the yard, as in people are slowly catching on, yet since i know this ive been able to keep the deck consistent through the hate, with the minor changes. jitte is quite good since they are not expecting it, and it makes your imps a huge threat if they even connect once. most of the time, one hit with the jitte means game over for the opponent. and with all your critters having evasion y not? equip a fatty for a faster kill or board control. y not?

Illissius
04-06-2008, 08:21 PM
Someone should already have asked this and if they have I apologize, but what's the point of running all those singleton reanimation targets when you have nothing to tutor for them? Wouldn't you rather just have more copies of the ones you want to see most often?

Mr Wiggl3s
04-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Intuition = buried alive + more

Jaiminho
04-06-2008, 10:45 PM
Except that Intuition can't fetch one singleton into your grave unless you opponent sucks or you can trick them using Jedi mind tricks.

Illissius
04-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Intuition = buried alive + more
Sure, but I don't see any in this last list.

Mr Wiggl3s
04-07-2008, 12:03 AM
Except that Intuition can't fetch one singleton into your grave unless you opponent sucks or you can trick them using Jedi mind tricks.

It doesnt fetch just one, it fetches 3

Sure, but I don't see any in this last list.
I see what you mean.... only 10 creatures to reanimate, 1 other and 8 outlets... running it kinda slim imo

Jaiminho
04-07-2008, 12:15 AM
It doesnt fetch just one, it fetches 3

If you need a specific 1-of crit, you can't get it. It's going straight to your hand. If they cleaned your table of discard dudes or named needle for the only one you got, you are screwed. Buried Alive > Intuition for that matter.

rodgon666
04-07-2008, 03:51 AM
the version with jitte is my response for my meta. since it has no intuitions i need to test it with 3 more SSS. which wreck decks left and right.

but the version without it is more of the way i prefer to play the deck, the jitte version is just being tested by me in response to all the hate being brought into my meta. in any meta with just random Thresh grave hate youll be better off with the intuition version. that one has been tested alot and the jitte version is in the process of being tested. even though they both perform quite amazingly.

^_^

enemyofarsenic
04-07-2008, 09:30 AM
Turn to Mist 1{w/u}
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. Return it to play at end of turn.

I think this would be kick ass with Bogardan hellkite, Symbiotic wurm, Woodfall Primus, Angel of despair and other hugh creature with sick "comes into play" abilities.

Hahaha just a thought...

rodgon666
04-07-2008, 02:25 PM
not bad...not bad...

not with symbiotic... since its not going to the graveyard... but with the others it might work.

ill have to test this card out too.

Thehunter820
04-07-2008, 04:02 PM
I would assume not, but I was curious if anyone was planning on testing the new demi-god of revenge from shadowmoor, its not that great and i don tknow if it'd be better than any of the other slots, but meh, i'm curious.

rodgon666
04-07-2008, 10:14 PM
you need to hrdcast him for his ability to work, so its not really that efficient.

the card reads... when you play him... not when he comes into play... and that makes the workd of difference between him being amazing and him sucking balls...at least in this deck.

enemyofarsenic
04-08-2008, 08:02 AM
I would assume not, but I was curious if anyone was planning on testing the new demi-god of revenge from shadowmoor, its not that great and i don tknow if it'd be better than any of the other slots, but meh, i'm curious.

I would rather use Body Double than the demigod of revenge.

rodgon666
04-10-2008, 04:30 AM
i dont know... body double is rather limited as well...

im going to test out another version of it this friday at Game Empire, with a tweaked sideboard and ill post the results here as always

enemyofarsenic
04-11-2008, 01:17 AM
Twilight Shepherd (3WWW)
Creature - Angel
Flying, vigilance, persist
When Twilight Shepherd comes into play, return all cards put into your graveyard from play this turn to your hand.
5/5


Any good?

rodgon666
04-11-2008, 05:19 AM
i dont know... good for what? there isnt any permanents that when they go to the yard you want them back in your hand...

sankido
04-11-2008, 10:37 AM
i dont know... good for what? there isnt any permanents that when they go to the yard you want them back in your hand...

Cards...not permanents.

Dilettante
04-11-2008, 10:44 AM
Cards...not permanents.

"... return all cards put into your graveyard from play this turn to your hand."

rodgon666
04-11-2008, 02:35 PM
Cards...not permanents.

if a card goes to the graveyard from play it has to be a permanent, in order for a card to be in play at any given time it has to be a permanent. i dot know the exact wording on the little rulebooks.. but im sure im right.

rodgon666
04-11-2008, 03:28 PM
ok so i thought id let you guys in on the very suttle changes i plan on testing tonight mostly sideboard changes and some creature changes.

i once again will run the Jitte version of the deck ( i have to much hate going around and more and more each week since i keep taking first place ^_^ )

Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Brainstorm
1x Show and tell

Artifacts
3x Jitte

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Garza something queen..
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island

-----------------
taken in for the account that i dont have intuition anymore i decided to make some creature alterations to the deck, also mostly since im seeing a shitload more targeted removal and alot more 3 color control decks running amock.

creatures that will be changed are as follows.

- 1 tombstalker ( i always wish for this to be something else... its good but as a 1 of not that much without the search ability of intuition, this goes with all the 1 ofs...)

-1 Phanthom nishoba
-1 Bringer of the blue dawn

+2 SSS
+1 Sundering titan

with these changes to the main i believe that those 3 color control decks withh have a hard time dealing with me now.


also some changes to the board.


3x stifle
3x extirpate
3x defense grid
3x show and tell
3x echoing truth

seeing that im less and less concerned with bouncing peoples things back to there hands since i add show and tells and jittes are main, the count for bounce going down is more than justified. also defence grid is just too good to not add since it allows me to control the pace of decks like thresh, landstill and the such since they have to use theyre cantrips during their turns or not at all, plus if i encounter any scepter chant shenanigans its good against it too.

4815162342
04-12-2008, 04:00 AM
Update: I decided to pilot the deck tonight and Rod decided to play Ichorid.

I decided to play a little with the deck and took out the 3 Jitte and a brainstorm and added 4 standstill. Why? No clue really. It ended up not making a huge difference. more of a win more card. I also kept the creature changes I.E tombstalker went out for Sundering Titan #2 and Nishoba went out for SSS #2

Round 1 Jerry playing Belcher

Game 1: Jerry gets me turn 2

Game 2: I am able to control a bit with a stifle. I have 1 stifle in my hand and an echoing truth turn 3. I get stuck at 2 land and he is able to win. : /

0-1 (Games 0-2)

Round 2 Mike playing Drain Life.dec

Game 1: I second turn a Hellkite. He keeps killing it and I keep animating it. I win

Game 2: Same only he made the mistake of killing my Hellkite and not dealing 10 damage to me when I was at 10

1-1 (Games 2-2)

Round 3: ? Playing Mono Black control

Game 1: he strips a reanimation spell with duress. I get a SSS anyway and beat. Animate a Dragon next turn. Win

Game 2: animate Hellkite turn 2 and 3 he cant deal with it.

2-1 (games 4-2)

Round 4: I think thefreakaccident? Robert playing? scepter chant?

He gives me the win because he is tired.

3-1 (games 6-2)

Round 5: Rod playing Ichorid :P

Game 1: I play first. He draws on his turn and discards. I cast exhume with no creatures in my grave but he has to play his Stinkweed imp. I then animate a hellkite. He doesn't see any dredge or discard outlets and dies to dragon beats.

Game 2: He therapies 2 extirpates from my hand. I have nothing to stop him from comboing I lose.

Game 3: Double extirpate beat with Hellkite and SSS for the win.

4-1 (games 7-3)

I took 4th place (both undefeated players split, and other person had better breakers.)

Great deck and really fun to play. I wish I could have played the Scepter chant match up but I was ok with getting the win.

Team-Hero
04-12-2008, 09:25 PM
There is this new rare coming out that might be used as a sideboard against the Reanimator deck. It works as an alternative answer, kinda like Leyline of the Void

Sun-and-Moon Wheel

(w/g)(w/g)

Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
Whenever a card would be put into the graveyard of enchanted player from anywhere, the card is revealed and put onto the bottom of that player's library.

It doesn't completely wreck the Reanimator, but it sure makes Show and Tell a viable counter card; backed up with bounce.

On an off-topic from the Reanimator deck, this is a sweet card against other decks.

AngryTroll
04-12-2008, 09:45 PM
Tormod's Crypt is usually going to be a larger concern than that enchantment. True, Tormod's Crypt only does its thing once, but it costs 0, makes you assemble a reanimation twice, and is fast enough to be effective against Ichorid.

Mr Wiggl3s
04-12-2008, 11:33 PM
no, have a discard outlet in, a fatass in your hand, and one in the GY

play something like exhume, in resp you remove the GY

once that resolves, discard through the outlet, and target the new creature

tormads does nothing to this deck

ssilver
04-12-2008, 11:56 PM
That works with exhume, but not with other reanimate spells tht target.

Jaiminho
04-13-2008, 12:35 AM
With a crypt in play, the other side only needs to stop Exhume from resolving. Anything else (pre-board, of course) is going to do nothing. You gotta get the crypt cracked when playing a reanimation spell, trading a target and a reanimator for a single crypt. Then, you need to get another fatty in the grave so you can reanimate that one.

Crypt, if nothing else, is a slower plus card disadvantage for you.


EDIT - BTW, just wanted to point this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174024&postcount=2). kthxbye

Mr Wiggl3s
04-13-2008, 05:19 PM
Hah, and who are you directing that towards sir?

rodgon666
04-14-2008, 12:35 PM
there are several cards in the new set that are actually descent and worth considering,

hollow baghest

Rite of Consumption ( specially this one)

woodfall primus ( a bad sundering titan... most permanents you dont really care about... but well see..)

just to name a few of the spoiled cards.


well see if theres any definite inclusions when the entire set is out.

4815162342
04-14-2008, 02:03 PM
I could definitely see the Rite of consumption filling the empty slot. I mean it could be used to end games a turn faster. It makes recurring Hellkite better while at the same time dealing 5 damage! Animate Hellkite 5 damage -> Sac to rite of consumption deal another 5 damage gain 5 -> animate Hellkite. Seems like it is at the very least worth a try.

Also turn to mist could be used in some form as a protection spell against swords or removal. And it gets more damage in with Hellkite.

kabal
04-14-2008, 10:55 PM
Thoughts?

Reanimator by Moritz Kaltofen (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15246)

1 Phantom Nishoba
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Putrid Imp

4 Exhume
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
1 Necromancy
3 Repeal
2 Buried Alive

3 Underground River
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Swamp
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Extirpate
1 Platinum

Mr Wiggl3s
04-14-2008, 11:18 PM
there are several cards in the new set that are actually descent and worth considering,

hollow baghest

Rite of Consumption ( specially this one)

well see if theres any definite inclusions when the entire set is out.

what do they do?

rodgon we should type up strats against good decks, like gobs, thresh, countertop, tombstone, landstill... want to?

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 12:26 AM
Thoughts?

Reanimator by Moritz Kaltofen (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15246)

1 Phantom Nishoba
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Putrid Imp

4 Exhume
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
1 Necromancy
3 Repeal
2 Buried Alive

3 Underground River
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Swamp
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Extirpate
1 Platinum

ok...

im not going to go into details why ome of these cards are not good...or why they shouldnt be there. ill just mention the ones that are obvious and the rest i mention please go back to the first post i set here and look them up from an explanation.

i see alot of cards that work... but they are not the most optimal cards you could have and therefore even though it will perform at a descent pace, you will have moments when your card choices will bite you in the ass.

let me explain the ones i believe i have not mentioned before..

Underground river: unless your on a massive budget and since you already have 7 fetches and just 1 underground sea i believe thats the case. basics, they are infinitely cheaper as well as in free! go with basics. those little ping lands are too unreliable without being able to fetch them.

Miren the moaning well: not really that good as a one of, im sure that with 20 lands you wont regret it on your opening hand as you will probably have other lands but having to recur to killing your critters for life should be a last alternative to losing.

Akromax2: a third of your reanimations suite cant reanimate her... so y add more of her? it makes more of your hands unplayable. ive considered taking her out for SSS number 3, and i think ill do it and never look back.

also the lack of your discard outlet 9-12 and cheap beater 5-8 will damper your controll match ups heavily. People OONAS PROWLER is tremendously uderated! he is a 3/1 flyer for 2 that acts as a discard and a descent beater! t least he gets alot of cards off opponents and distracts them from their disruption of your game. if he goes un answered he deals 6-9 damage easily! y people keep on using Cabal therpy over him will never make sense to me.

unless you use symbiotic wurms, More sundering titans 4 hellkites and tidesprouts in multiples therapy sucks in this deck! your not always going to want to kill your beaters, 60% of the time if he stays in play you win! or they kill it for you.

buried alive is descent if you dont have intuitions at hand. add one more if you can to make it an effetive deck thinner and search.

and y engineered plague? and Blue elemental blasts? and damnation!!!! WOW!!!

goblins just loses to you... y else would you use plague???? try propaganda, it wrecks goblins almost as much and it also works against landstill and fish/thresh variants.

BEB?: like i said goblins dies to you... i could only see this usefull if you play against alot of burn.. but then chill is much better.

add more extirpates and i dont even see stifles? trust me... by the time you get your 1 angel in play most combo decks have you dead. stifles and extirpates for the win! not much else works as good agaisnt our worst enemy fast combo.

enemyofarsenic
04-15-2008, 01:51 AM
Windbrisk Raptor 5WW
Creature - Bird
Flying
Attacking creatures you control have lifelink.
5/7

Another fattie for burn or any decks that damages you fast...

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 02:02 AM
i was thinking that that one might be good enough to replace nishobas. it makes your oonas and imps into Lifelinkers. is the -2 power but flying and being able to make your little dudes better... better than trample, and semi indestructability? it is a better evasion, yet the smaller body and not being able to fend of critters and stall the game dude to just life gain all around... mmmm... it would need to be tested. alot, to even see a difference.

enemyofarsenic
04-15-2008, 02:27 AM
Turn to Mist 1{w/u}
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. Return it to play at end of turn.

I think this would be kick ass with Bogardan hellkite, Symbiotic wurm, Woodfall Primus, Angel of despair and other hugh creature with sick "comes into play" abilities.

Hahaha just a thought...

Oh just to add this card is better than imp's mischief... it not only dodges removal without damage but it can replay the sick comes into play abilities of your fatties. .

enemyofarsenic
04-15-2008, 03:00 AM
Rite of Consumption 1B
Sorcery
As additional cost to play Rite of Consumption, sacrifice a creature.
Rite of Consumption deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt this way.

Sorry if my question is kind of newbish, if this spell gets countered the creature wont be sacrificed, right?

Drac
04-15-2008, 03:12 AM
Since it is a cost the creature will get sacrificed when you pay its mana. the spell then goes onto the stack, where the opponent might choose to counter it. so yes if the spell gets countered you lose the creature. also a few posts back some guy was trying to be wise about that you cannot ressurecting akroma with some stuff? that is way off. If you play animate dead on your akroma. this will happen.

Animate dead comes into play and targets akroma

Akroma gets ressurected and comes into play

Animate dead tries to attach to Akroma

Akroma has Pro black so animate dead cannot attach itself to her.

Animate dead goes into the graveyard. Akroma stays in play

Akroma swings for a hasty 6

Edit: also therapy is obviously better then oona's prowler. you have enough stuff to get fatties into the graveyard.

Imp- a full turn faster then prowler. speed matters more then trying to kill your opponent with a fragile 1 toughness flyer.
Carefull stufy- a full turn faster then prowler and nets you two more cards. anyday over prowler.
Buried Alive/Intuition- fills the grave with what you want when you want it. although this is slower then prowler the ability to search for the desired creature makes this better.

Therpay can get rid of the opponents countermagic or annoying removal. it also helps your combo matchup. why would you ever ever ever want to play oona's prowler over this? not even to mention its synergy with imp.

Also propaganda is not usefull vs landstill or threshhold.

vs Landstill. the landstill player is trying to keep control. he has acces to deed or disk. propaganda is utter crap vs landstill. not even to mention he runs like 23-25 lands.

vs Threshhold. slightly better then vs landstill but still no where near usefull. They will pay 2 mana to bash your dome in with a huge goyf.

Good reasons for propaganda

It stops Ichorid
It stops EtW tokens
It is good against goblins
It stops Breakfasti f they are going for kiki-jikki kill.
it is reasonable vs goyf sligh

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 04:10 AM
dude... keep up with the rulings on cards.

animate dead doesnt work with Akroma or pro black creatures anymore.


9/16/2007 If the creature card you target has protection from black, Animate Dead will return it to play, but won't be able to become attached to it. Animate Dead will be put into your graveyard because it will be an unattached Aura. Then the creature will be sacrificed because Animate Dead left play. This is a change from recent functionality.

direct from the GATHERER.

i never compared Careful study to prowler, i have both in the deck.

wasting your first turns seeing if you manage to get a card from your opponent ( or if you use it on yourself you give up what you have in hand) is bad in a deck that just wants to get a fatty out ASAP. ive tried both and it just doesnt work if you dont have all the creatures with leave from play abilities.

I have tested this ALOT! i am the wiseguy that said you cant resurect akroma, and im the wise guy thats piloted this deck to many more tournament wins in the last several months than anyone i know.

the decklist i have compiled both the intuition version and the jitte version are two different ways you can go along playing the deck. and in neither of them you need Therapies.

You need an alternate kill condition to your reanimation to make them waste their swords on the 3/1 flyers that are killing them rather thn your 6/6, 7/7 or whatever fatty. if they leave them unanswered they have to race you... if they have to race you they cant play defensively... if they have to race you they have to overcommit and tap out... if they have to do all that odds are they are going to slip up and get slammed by a fatty... and they will, if you play a smart game and know that a threat attracts a removal spell better than any discard.
yeah it might be disadvantage if they kill your imp or fairy, but by the time they do anything to them they already did what they were supposed to.

i dont want to sound like im the know it all of this deck... but quite frankly i believe i am. im sure i have put more hours into testing this deck and fine tuning it than anyone in the source and thanks to that it does wonders for me.

So before you go along and try to say something or put your two cents about a card that has been discussed ALOT in the thread go back and read some of it. odds are your answers are just laying a couple pages back, i believe ive been very thorough in the information i provide.

PS: and landstill only needs to be stalled. so propaganda works wonders. having to tap 4 lands to attack with a mishras is pretty good disruption, or so ive found.

enemyofarsenic
04-15-2008, 05:51 AM
Rite of Consumption 1B
Sorcery
As additional cost to play Rite of Consumption, sacrifice a creature.
Rite of Consumption deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt this way.

Sorry if my question is kind of newbish, if this spell gets countered the creature wont be sacrificed, right?

So does the creature gets sacrificed when this spell gets countered? bwahahaha....

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 06:31 AM
yup. but that was the whole porpoise of the spell to begin with! if they counter that, odds are they wont counter the re-reanimation and theyll be hurt again. Specially by sundering titan, or helkites.

Drac
04-15-2008, 10:13 AM
Landstill doesnt mind getting stalled. and landstill has a much better endgame then reanimator. propaganda is just really bad versus landstill.

Im sorry about rulings. i remembered it back when i was playing Worldgorger dragon in my casual group and also had akroma for funsies.

They dont have to use the swords on the oona's cause most decks can race that. and they will use it on your fatties. discard spells make sure the cards that are in your way are out of the way. which makes it way more usefull for this deck.

also the fling like card is just bad. when will you want to sacrifice your fatty. its better beating somebody to death with it.

Also you say you have piloted this to many wins. I wonder what your metagame will be like when you are able to win with this deck without any form of disruption. It seems like it folds to counter top, any form of fast combo. and alot of random junk.

For the record im not trying to be an asshole. im just pointing out that it is very needed in legacy to have disruption. Even the combo decks nowadays pack alot of disruption.

I think it is needed to run force of will and enough blue cards to suport it and 1 set of discard spells. thoughtseize is most likely better then cabal therapy in this case.

nodahero
04-15-2008, 10:40 AM
at Drac: Rod is not suggesting landstill dosn't like to be stalled. He is SAYING that stalling them is all this deck needs to win against them. I can atest to that theory myself as I have played this deck a couple times at a local tourney against landstill and forceing them to spend double the mana to attack with a factory is brutal against them.
What deck are you thinking can race prowler and runs swords... There are not many decks that run swords and can really race us other than thresh. Which that matchup really isnt that bad even if they have countertop as long as you are a compitent legacy player. Once counter top shows up all you do is take them out with imps and prowlers since they wont be playing threats so that they can have mana up to stop your spells with top. Not to mention postboard we get Show and Tell a 3 drop spell... a drop that thresh tends to skip thus nullyfying the top in that arguement needing them to have force since you would know to play around daze...

For refrence I play the non-jitte version.

Drac
04-15-2008, 10:58 AM
Angel stompy runs swords and can race oona's prowler
Death and Taxes runs swords and can race oona's prowler
GBW Loam runs swords and can race oona's prowler
White Thresh(which you mentioned) runs swords and can race prowler
Pikula runs swords and can race prowler
Fish runs swords and can race prowler
Hanni-Fish runs swords and can race prowler
Vial goblins WR(abit outdated maybe but can still showup) runs swords and can race prowler

there must be a dozen other decks that run swords and can race prowler.

I played landstill UWB in a few tournaments myself and i must say i cannot imagine losing to this. let alone having trouble with propaganda.

I still think running no discard and no counter not being able to kill on turn 1-2
will make it very hard for you to take this deck to a tournament and actually win.

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 03:03 PM
results speak louder than words.

i dont have to prove anything to ya. hahahaha.

the people that have played me with this deck can attest to how good it is, and how consistent it is without the need for cards like duress, thoughtsieze, therapy or hymm.
hey but maybe im just the shit, and thats why... oh wait... no, thats not it either... since whenever i let other people play my deck they tend to by some weird miracle get amazing results too!

Angel Stompy: they can race you... but besides from swords they have no way to deal with your fatties, an easy win.

Death and Taxes: A little more competitive and annoying matchup but if anything its even, whoever gets the upper hand early wins.

GBW loam: Are you kidding me? Loam decks are pretty much byes.

White thresh: as long as you play around countermagic early they only have swords again to stop you, and how many swords do you see in a game? if they get 3 and you dont get a SSS or undering titan or anything like that then yeah you loose

Pkula: As long as you manage to keep ome lands they cant really stop you from getting a fatty, a hellkite eliminates all their side, sundering their lands, and SSS just cant be killed by them. without your fatties they can race you hahaha.

Fish : its an annoying match like thresh, but they run out of steam fast and 1 critter in the game means you normally win. again... swords is the only kill they have.

Goblins of any type: I cant stress enough how easy this matchup is. if your even a descent magic player. you will have almost a bye with goblins even if they have swords.

and of course other decks can race prowler! but how many can race prowler while playing defensively to stop your reanimation? thats what you have ask yourself.

Thehunter820
04-15-2008, 03:59 PM
you need to hrdcast him for his ability to work, so its not really that efficient.

the card reads... when you play him... not when he comes into play... and that makes the workd of difference between him being amazing and him sucking balls...at least in this deck.

Yea I know, and that's why i'd figure not, but he's got flying and umm haste I think.

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 04:14 PM
thats true he is flying and haste and a 5/4, but with those stats id rather put Garza in and at least she draws me a card. there are other critters that are a little more viable, yet if you happen to have the mana and you intuitioned for the demons, hittng someone for 15 is no joke hahahaha.

maybe a deck like that deserves a thread, you should make a list and start one. ^_^. with intuitions and buried alives as your search, and living death! it could be a fun deck to play!

Thehunter820
04-15-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah i'll draft up some stuff, test it out a few rounds, post a list and see what you guys think, if you like it i'll get some play test results aswell.

Mr Wiggl3s
04-15-2008, 06:24 PM
rodgon we should type up strats against good decks, like gobs, thresh, countertop, tombstone, landstill... want to?

Rodgon, want to?

rodgon666
04-15-2008, 06:29 PM
sure thing y not, ill try to get something typed up by tonight. ill take the decks int he decks to beat and some others and type up to the best of my knowledge and testing what the best strategies would be for the top tier deck matchups.

Willoe
04-15-2008, 06:48 PM
People!

Which of the new critters from Shadowmoor sound viable for reanimation?

I'll place my bet on nothing else than the goddamn Ghastlord of Fugue!!! :D Why? A five turn clock might sound clunky, but the fact that he's unblockable and actually REMOVES the card sound like a big deal against sooo many decks. I actually think he's better than Mindleech Mass, and I'll test the lord for a couple of days and tell you what I think.

And of course, the card that everyone's been busy talking about, Woodfall Primus sounds at least SB'able. But why on the earth would a play a 4/4 over a persist 6/6? Man, there's a couple of factors:

Ghastlord can be hardcasted. Believe it or not, but Tombstalker has found a brother.

Unblockablity >>>>>> almost anything else.

A weapon against GY-based decks. You completely rip off their ressources, as you race their crappy goyf army which won't grow since you remove their crap.

The lord just avoids lightning bolt as well.

Does anyone agree with me? The only downside IMO, is that he doesn't have shroud or an CiP ability. But that is justified that he's a double, much better hippie. Primus is simply double angel of despair that's too clumsy IMO.

Primus' still good and deserves testing, true. They both do, along with a couple of other creatures.

Xurcks
04-15-2008, 07:27 PM
I'm with you on this willoe...the Ghastlord was the card that drew most of my attention concerning reanimator decks.I think it's just pretty interesting for it to have unblockability(ultimate evasion) and a built-in Castigate of sorts to help get rid of future problems.
I didn't find place for Angel of Despair in my previous build,and for this reason,I'm not so excited about Woodfall Primus(and it has the noncreature permanent restrition,so he can't kick tarmo's/<insert problematic creature name here>,which can sometimes prove important).
I like Midnight Banshee as well,because he owns aggro decks by himself,sadly he does not have evasion =/.
Windbrisk Raptor is a good option,a lifelink flyer with a fat ass to boot.
Isleback Spawn would be beautiful if it text read twenty or more cards in it (a 8/16 with shroud would be,uhm,nice at the least :P)

enemyofarsenic
04-16-2008, 01:34 AM
Knollspine Dragon 5RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying
When Knollspine Dragon comes into play, you may discard your hand and draw cards equal to the damage dealt to target opponent this turn.
7/5

Another fattie...

4815162342
04-16-2008, 02:41 AM
Knollspine Dragon 5RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying
When Knollspine Dragon comes into play, you may discard your hand and draw cards equal to the damage dealt to target opponent this turn.
7/5

Another fattie...


Well........


that just has so much potential in the deck. refill your hand after an attack with a big creature or imps or prowlers. Seems pretty great.

Willoe
04-16-2008, 05:15 AM
Wow, a flying three turn clock with a great drawing engine? Sign me up! I'd just play him in multiples so he becomes a windfall (reanimate the first, discard nothing, next turn, attack 2nd main reanimate the other target and draw 7 cards! :D) Too bad he does literally nothing when he's played as your 1st reanimated beef. Oh well, there's still the flying and the seven power factor... :)

I think we have a very good drawing engine here. Personally, I think my creature base would look like:

2 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Phantom Nishoba
3 Knollspine Dragon
1 Garza Sol, Plague Queen
1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
1 Ghastlord of Fugue

And then I'd play 4 Intuition.
Need Pyrotechnichs? Intuition -> Kite, Kite, random critter
Need lifegain? Intuition -> Nishoba, Nishoba, random critter
Need card advantage? Intuition -> Garza, Bringer, Ghastlord
Need draw seven? Intuition -> Dragon, Dragon, Dragon

Why have I dismissed the other untargetable dudes? I'm testing Knollspine Dragon right now if it's win more. Additionally, I've made up my deck in a slightly different way (this is just a test):

Reanimation Outlets:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Careful Study
4 Intuition

Protection:
2 Repeal

Reanimators:
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

Beefs:
2 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Phantom Nishoba
3 Knollspine Dragon
1 Garza Sol, Plague Queen
1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
1 Ghastlord of Fugue

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
5 Swamp
3 Island

With 60 cards (!) and Intuition minded, this deck is minded at the late game. Therefore, I´'ve tried to put in some FoWs and Thoughtseizes to blast away some counterbalances, which can give us very large troubles. What do you guys think of this?

Team-Hero
04-16-2008, 05:41 AM
always run 4 Bogardan Hellkite, don't cut them to two.

rodgon666
04-16-2008, 06:10 AM
and the ghastlord is terrible... y add him? 5 mana for a 4/4 that needs to hit to remove 1 card!!!.... no no no.. slap yourself in the hand. its a bad card.

the new dragon could be amazing or ok. i cant see him sucking. 7/5 flyer as it is is huge!!! and the ability is rather usefull. damn new sets... always testing testing testing...

electrolyze
04-16-2008, 01:13 PM
i've been testing this deck on mws for a while and have this list now:

4xputrid imp
2xoona's prowler

4#bogardan hellkite
4#simic sky swallower
1#akroma white
1#akroma red

4#reanimate
4#exhume
2#animate dead

4#brainstorm
4#careful study

4#cabal therapy
2#repeal
1#show and tell

4#underground sea
2#watery grave
5#swamp
1#island
4#delta
4#mire

sideboard:

dont know yet but there are tombstalker and show and tell for sure in it.


i like this list because it is really consistent and has good protection and cantrips against many decks to be quick and effective. i dont know why youre putting so many 1-offs in your list with the creatures and why not only the best creatures, hellkite can have a really fast clock and sss is undefeatable so why dont run 4 because many decks run creature removal.

akroma2x against the mu's i cant get killed like the red one against blue based control and the akroma white against decks with burn and black based control or something like that.

if youre running intuition i can understand the 1-offs but i dont run it because its consistent without it too, but i think i will test it soon.

maybe cut one brainstorm for a prowler? because prowler is really strong or put an extra fattie in it like sundering titan or the new 5/7 lifelink thing.

enemyofarsenic
04-16-2008, 01:29 PM
Toolbox approach.