[Deck] Duck Hunt - U/B Landstill

[PunkRocker1134]

Ok heres a new take at an older verizon of Landstill. I have noticed how people keep saying Landstill has lost its orignal power now that Goblins has kicked up in power, and landstill jsut cant keep up. Black offers faster and better removal, along with better draw and some more synergy.

Duck Hunt

Mana(25):
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
5 Island
2 Swamp

Permission(10):
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
2 Mana leak

Removal(13):
4 Infest
3 Engineered Plague
4 Vendetta
2 Decree of Pain

Draw(8):
4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Fact or Fiction

Other(4):
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Twisted Abomination

Sideboard:
4 Cranial Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
3 Tormods Crypt
4 Duress
3 Smother

Ok some thigns have changed since orginally posting this. The draw has changed a little, in fact im thinking of cutting some more. at the moment i like 8 pieces of draw. Thanks to Godzilla for pointing out the old thread. In fact i like that manabase alot, i in fact copied it. It has been working much better. I dotn want to cut infest mainly for its mana cost. I want an early piece of removal for Goblins. Infest fits this well. My board is more aimed at control. Well now for card choices. Im only going to cover odder choices/ reasons for the black splash.

Counters: 10 is nessecary and Im pretty sure is standard. This doesnt need explaining does it?

Draw:

Standstill: duh
Skeletal Scrying: This is good drawing power. Its more of a late game card but it can be used for a few early in the game. Instant speed is very good too.
Fact or Fiction: Pretty standard, i think 2 is a good number

Removal:

Infest: In what testing i have done (not enough to post numbers) Infest has been great. Althought it costs double black goblins will usually be dropping dudes so i dont have to worry much about being shut off from double black. This comes down one turn earlier then Wrath of God so If they play i dont have to worry about dieing turn 4 and lookin at a useless Wrath of God.

Vendetta: The life loss is worth it most of the time. I woudl rather take 2 damage for killing a Piledriver then like 6 from it attacking or 3 from a Warchief then the damage from an army of hasted goblins.

Engineered Plague: Since i worry about Goblins alot this card helps alot. Also against Rabit Wombat Engineered Plague on Solders is some nice stuff. Im pretty sure it is worth it maindeck.

Decree of Pain: Its synergy with Standstill is worthwhile. It may come down a turn later but it doesnt pop Standstill, its instant speed and it replaces it self.

Other:

Crucible of Worlds: standard
Twisted Abomination: alternate kill and a way to fetch swamps early

So...now that im done my ranting I have to thank you for the comments so far.....keep um comming.

[boom]

Too many FoFs, the non synergy of the black spells + standstill, and gobs ability to get around landstill with Vial which isnt addressed here.

On paper, UB offers a stronger mana base because of the allied colors but Infest and Hideous Laughter costing double black means you need still need dual lands to reliably cast those while posing a threat to use your Counterspells. This means manabase is still shady.

You dont use the best anti goblin card available, a card I was expecting to see when I saw the idea of Landstill going with Black, Engineered Plauge. It only costs 1 black as well, only needs to casted once to have an effect which allows more "synergy" with standstill, and does not effect your guys (minimal but still a concern).

[Pyrokinesis]

There really isn't much of an argument for Blue/Black landstill over Blue/White here, although Black's Wrath effects are indeed a bit cheaper. However, you missed one card that could be flagrant Standstill abuse - Decree of Pain. Costing five it may only warrant one or two copies, but I still can't help giggling like a psychotic schoolgirl at the thought of Wogging, drawing a card, and not having to pop Standstill.

[Getsickanddie]

Skeletal Scrying.

It really really really should be in any type of u/b landstill build. I would suggest cutting night's whispers for it. Decree of pain is also a must, and should probably replace infest. What you lose in speed, is made up by the amazing synergy that you get with standstill. I also might suggest trying to add some sort of alternative kill conditon, maybe something along the lines of undead gladiator/ twisted abomination (swampcycling is pretty hot). Nev. Disk, or some sort of main deck bounce might be a good idea, to deal with pesky enchantments/artifacts.

On a side note, a 63 card deck equals the bads.

[Brian676]

i actually built a deck kind of similar to this and had some success with it. i don't understand why you aren't running brainstorm over night's whisper. both are great but since it is a blue deck you have better card draw options than whisper. anyway heres the list i played if your interested

4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclave
4 wasteland
4 mox diamond
3 swamp
6 island

4 force of will
4 mana leak
4 counterspell
4 duress
4 diabolic edict
3 innocent blood
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 nevinyrall's disk
2 crucible of worlds

[ElvenTitz]

Is it a new look on landstill ? Id rather say its an old one (im not expert in that, throught), that version ran Shadowmage infiltrator and Plaguebearer.

[Zilla]

No, this is not a new idea (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1395). But hey, discuss it here all you like. Check out the older thread - maybe it'll give you some ideas.

[PunkRocker1134]

Thank you Godzilla i nmade changes from that thread. Could you possibly change the name to Duck Hunt like it should be.

[Sugar Woof]

Would anyone happen to have an updated list of Duck Hunt? I saw a copy of it being ran at the most recent d4d and was just wanting to see what the current list looked like for possible testing.

[Brushwagg]

I really wouldn't MD Plague. It's only really effective against Goblins, so should be boarded. Unless you face alot of Goblins in your meta. Also have you looked into MD Diabolic Edict instead of Vedetta?? I know Edict costs but it can get rid of pesky untargetables in the first few turns.

[Mirrislegend]

No, this is not a new idea (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1395). But hey, discuss it here all you like. Check out the older thread - maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Is it just me or is the above link busted? If its not just me, then Godzilla, please find what you were referring to and fix taht.

[Di]

Is it just me or is the above link busted? If its not just me, then Godzilla, please find what you were referring to and fix taht.

The link Godzilla posted went to the thread that I posted in response to ElvenTitz thinking this was a new deck when I in fact created it long before. The link won't work because the original thread wasn't added to the archives after the boards switched servers or whatever happened. But there still might be something about the deck in the archives...

Also, why the hell are all my decks' threads being necroed? First Holy, and now this. Next we'll be seeing ATS being resurrected...

EDIT: Actually, found the link to the original thread.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378

[Sugar Woof]

Does anyone know what the list looked like from the most recent d4d? Also, does anyone know how it placed?

[overlord95]

Yea me for necroing a thread that’s been dead for nearly 6 months. Moreover, what better way to breath some life back into this thread then with a semi-success story. First off here’s the list that I piloted to a top8 finish at the Running GAGG.

DA RIFLE aka 59 CARD TECH aka DUCK HUNT aka UB LANDSTILL: by Scott Scheurer

Deck list

Artifacts
3 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Crucible of Worlds

Enchantments
1 x The Abyss
4 x Standstill

Instants
4 x Force of will
4 x Counterspell
3 x Stifle
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Fact or Fiction
4 x Ghastly Demise

Sorceries
3 x Decree of Pain
2 x Haunting Echoes

Lands
4 x Islands
2 x Swamps
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Flooded Strand
1 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard
4 x Duress
4 x Flesh Reaver
3 x Tsabo’s Decree
4 x Dandan (YES IT’S SEXY TIME!!!)

Card by card explanations

Engineered Explosives: Gives you answer to annoying permanents such Pithing Needle, Aether Vial, Umezawa’s Jitte, and all the while letting you stay in just blue black.

Crucible of Worlds: This card has obvious applications with fetch lands, Wasteland, and makes your Mishra’s Factories nearly indestructible.

The Abyss: As of right now it’s a placeholder, and rounds out the fourth wrathish effect.
However, on the plus side against aggro it makes it to where your opponent has to over commit to the board to beat the card in question, which in the end makes your Decree of Pains potentially more devastating.

Standstill: The namesake of the deck, two mana for three cards and the potential to set your opponent back by x turns is just nutty. Playing any less the four in the match ups where its bad makes it even worse then it already is, because you want to see it on turn 2 and alot of the time becomes a dead card after that.

Force of Will: Stops random brokenness from happening on turn one like Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial. While also allowing you to tap out for whatever reason and not fear what your opponent could do to swing the game in their favor.

Counterspell: Stops potentially threatening spells from hitting the in play zone a staple for most blue-based control decks.

Stifle: In my opinion, one of the most underplayed cards and an invaluable tool for all u/x control decks. This card hoses an array of problematic spells from Goblin Ringleader to Tendrils of Agony. While at the same time allowing you too further exploit the potential LD strategy in combination with crucible/wasteland to stop fetch lands. IMO this card is here to stay.

Brainstorm: This card allows you to filters threw dead cards in certain match ups. All the while fixing your mana base and potentially hide important cards in the match ups where that’s relevant.

Fact or Fiction: Another source of big instant speed card advantage that has great synergy with crucible, but the main reason it’s in the deck over Skeletal Scrying is the fact that it’s blue to support Force of Will.

Ghastly Demise: Efficiency here is the name of the game; this is the closet thing to Swords to Plowshares you’re going to get without playing white.

Decree of Pain: This card right now is a placeholder until Damnation is legal.

Haunting Echoes: Your secondary win condition, your games are going to run long and having the ability to preemptively remove any outs your opponent could draw is just greeeeaatt.

The mana base: I think is self-explanatory with the exception of the extra fetch lands. These are here to make things like Brainstorm into an Ancestral Recall more often; also, it increases the odds of having the fetch/Ghastly Demise combo for the first turn lackey.

Duress: This is here as a general hoser to combo and control decks.

THE MAN PLAN (Flesh Reaver and Dandan): This is here for decks like Solidarity where what you really need is a way to win the game faster and not more disruption.

Tsabo’s Decree: This comes in against tribal strategies (mainly goblins) where the plan is to bull shit until turn six, just drop this, and win the game.

Ill have a tourney report and match up analysis up later but for now ill leave, you guys with some discussion topics:
Engineered Explosives hot or not?
Engineered Explosives vs. Powder Keg
The Abyss hot or not?
Adding more colors hot or not?
Stifle hot or not?
Is having the Man Plan really worth all the sideboard spaces it takes up?

[kicks_422]

Any plans on adding Damnation? Also, is 6 fetchlands really needed, considering you only run 2 colors?

I don't think you need a man plan in the SB, just better stuff like Engineered Plague for Goblins, Chalice for Combo, Diabolic Edict for untargetable creatures, etc.

[overlord95]

Any plans on adding Damnation?

Decree of Pain: This card right now is a placeholder until Damnation is legal.
Yes

Also, is 6 fetchlands really needed, considering you only run 2 colors?

The mana base: I think is self-explanatory with the exception of the extra fetch lands. These are here to make things like Brainstorm into an Ancestral Recall more often; also, it increases the odds of having the fetch/Ghastly Demise combo for the first turn lackey.
Yes

I don't think you need a man plan in the SB, just better stuff like Engineered Plague for Goblins, Chalice for Combo, Diabolic Edict for untargetable creatures, etc.
Can you please explain why you think that not have The Man Plan is good idea. Just saying you dont think I need it doesnt further the discussion.

[Peter_Rotten]

How often do you run to time with this deck? It seems like whenever I read about ppl playing against the deck, they finished game one, maybe two, and then ran out of time.

Does this deck suffer the Jack Elgin effect? (A good deck if rounds were 80 minutes.)

[overlord95]

How often do you run to time with this deck? It seems like whenever I read about ppl playing against the deck, they finished game one, maybe two, and then ran out of time.

Does this deck suffer the Jack Elgin effect? (A good deck if rounds were 80 minutes.)
To be honest it happens more then id like it to. At the Running GAGG I went to time against Big Bear and I went to time against the enchantress player.The best solution imo to this problem is either a) take the aggresive roll earlyer or b) play more win conditions which can come down earlyer.

[scrumdogg]

To be honest it happens more then id like it to. At the Running GAGG I went to time against Big Bear and I went to time against the enchantress player.The best solution imo to this problem is either a) take the aggresive roll earlyer or b) play more win conditions which can come down earlyer.

Or not waste time when shuffling/sideboarding/presenting, from comments posted by opponents/observers at GaGG2 you were nearly as slow as Mark (anyone from Quse will immediately get that...& cringe). Maximizing the time time you have to operate is always a good idea with a slow deck anyway. A) how exactly CAN you be aggressive with this deck? Seems improbable unless you actually B) play more win conditions.... Which leads to the discussion, which win cinditions? And what comes out?

[Peter_Rotten]

...b) play more win conditions which can come down earlyer.

Hmm. Could Faerie Conclave speed things up (a little)?

You need something big and scary like a Black Decree of Justice or Eternal Dragon. And it would have to be a creature that performs some sort of double duty like Dragon (fetching land) and Decree (drawing a card - surpise blockers) did in UW Landstill. Unfortunately, I know of no such black creature.

Would something like Kukosho be reasonable? Spirit of the Night :frown: ?

[smeagol]

Very nice take on U/B landstill.

I really like some of your card choices (Haunting Echoes especially), however some choices seem really odd to me (namely Ghastly Demise and your "man plan").

I try to give some feedback on some card choices:

Playing Engineered Explosives with only two colors seems a bit suboptimal to me... why not play Powder Keg instead?. Most relevant enchantments (namely Solitary Confinement) are more expensive than 2 anyways, making that a moot point for Explosives.

Have you considered to add one or two Nevi Disks? Might be too slow, but can take out cards the deck wouldn't handle otherwise.

Stifle hot or not? A clear "the hotness". Stifle is so freakin' awesome, giving you the edge in a tempo based game (countering fetch-lands is huge).

Abyss hot or not? The Abyss is really weak against U/W/G Thresh, mediocre at best vs. Goblins (goblins want to overextend anyways to beat you down, so there's no point in forcing them to overextend with a 4 mana enchantment). A really goofy card, looking great on paper but actually doing far to less to warrant a deck slot.

I don't think I like 4 Counterspells in this deck, UU is a big stretch on the manabase (8 colorless lands... hard to support UU at most times). Counterspell is obviously a good card, but maybe 2 would be enough (replacing the other two with some other kind of permission spell, not requiering UU).
Possible options: - Disrupting Shoal
- Spell Burst (a big "if",I'm just brainstorming on these)
- Mana Leak

Ghastly Demise? Seriously? I think outside of U/B/G Thresh this card is too hard to use effectively. I would run either Edicts or Innocent Blood (sorcery - yes. but can hit that pesky mongoose, which Demise can't touch) in this slot.

As for Damnation, we all agree, that it's superior to Decree of Pain...

Sideboard:
I think the man plan simply wastes to many slots. That simple.

The 8 slots could be better filled with a mix of Extirpates and some Counterbalances// Sensei's Divining Tops. I played these for some time now and I am really impressed. Counter/Top wins games you don't have business winning. It's just so amazing against a wide variety of decks (I know this contradicts with the "UU for Counterspell is hard to get" argument).

Adding a third color is always an option that gives big rewards for a big risk.

Let's see:

I'll list just the most obvious cards...

White:
- Swords to Plowshares
- Vindicate
- Decree of Justice
- various Disenchant effects
...
kind of meh... If considering these, why not simply play U/W Landstill...

Red:
- Burn (Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice)
- Pyroclasm or Rough//Tumble (does this deck really need more creature kill?)
- good Artifact hate
- nice sideboard hate vs. white and blue

Green:
- Pernicous Deed (Now that's better than Explosives)
- Regrowth (might turn into Demonic Tutor mid- to lategame, really huge if revealed with Fact or Fiction)
- Krosan Grip (uncounterable Enchantment and Artifact hate can't be that bad)

Sweet.


I think of the above mentioned options, if any I would probably settle with Green... Looks to be the most powerful. Deed >>> Explosives/Keg/Disk.

[overlord95]

Or not waste time when shuffling/sideboarding/presenting, from comments posted by opponents/observers at GaGG2 you were nearly as slow as Mark (anyone from Quse will immediately get that...& cringe). Maximizing the time time you have to operate is always a good idea with a slow deck anyway.Sorry if I don’t get the reference, but what you call wasting time I call taking time to make sure that I don’t get mana screwed do to the fact that I have a inadequately shuffled deck.


A) how exactly CAN you be aggressive with this deck? Seems improbable unless you actually B) play more win conditions.... Which leads to the discussion, which win cinditions? In addition, what comes out? It’s actually not improbable to take the aggressive stance, it’s as simple as putting Mishra's Factory in the red zone more often.


Hmm. Could Faerie Conclave speed things up (a little)? I wouldn’t advise messing with the mana base especially if your deliberating about adding lands that come into play tapped


You need something big and scary like a Black Decree of Justice or Eternal Dragon. And it would have to be a creature that performs some sort of double duty like Dragon (fetching land) and Decree (drawing a card - surpise blockers) did in UW Landstill. Unfortunately, I know of no such black creature. it’s not completely out of the question to splash just for things like Decree of Justice. It wouldn’t hurt the mana base that badly due to the fact that Decree doesn’t come online till really late in the game.


Would something like Kukosho be reasonable? Spirit of the Night ? It doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Things like Teferai, Errant of Ephemeron, and Possessed Aven come to mind.


Playing Engineered Explosives with only two colors seems a bit suboptimal to me... why not play Powder Keg instead?. Most relevant enchantments (namely Solitary Confinement) are more expensive than 2 anyways, making that a moot point for Explosives. The reason that Explosives is in the deck over things like Powder keg is the fact that to kill something at the 2cc end of the spectrum (for example) wont be able to come online till turn 4 (if played on turn 2). As opposed to Explosives, which comes online in potentially, the same turn? At any rate what perments do you actually care above 2 casting cost that the rest of the deck can’t take of?


Abyss hot or not? The Abyss is really weak against U/W/G Thresh, mediocre at best vs. Goblins (goblins want to overextend anyways to beat you down, so there's no point in forcing them to overextend with a 4 mana enchantment). A really goofy card, looking great on paper but actually doing far to less to warrant a deck slot. I will admit it leaves a few things to be desired against Gro. But against Goblins it’s actually quite amazing. Goblins don’t want to over extend against board control decks (like this one) because then they lose to things like Decree of Pain or Damnation. And if they sit there and let The Abyss eat at there board the that just gives you more time to either a) Deal with what ever they currently have on the board b) set up waste lock c) or just beat them


I don't think I like 4 Counterspells in this deck, UU is a big stretch on the manabase (8 colorless lands... hard to support UU at most times). Counterspell is obviously a good card, but maybe 2 would be enough (replacing the other two with some other kind of permission spell, not requiering UU).

Possible options: - Disrupting Shoal
- Spell Burst (a big "if",I'm just brainstorming on these)
- Mana Leak
You have 14 blue sources plus Brainstorm to support Double blue, and you don’t always need double on turn 2. Shoal just seems terrible because you really don’t want the added card disadvantage. Spell burst just seems bad in a format where the fundamental turn is 3-4. The reason why it’s so damn good in type 2 is the fact that you have tron and the fundamental turn is much slower. Mana leak is an opinion that I’ve been toying with but ended up cutting since you want more spells that effect the board.

Ghastly Demise? Seriously? I think outside of U/B/G Thresh this card is too hard to use effectively. I would run either Edicts or Innocent Blood (sorcery - yes. but can hit that pesky mongoose, which Demise can't touch) in this slot. You play just as many fetch lands as grow plus Brainstorm, Wasteland, and Stifle. It’s not that hard to use effectively if timed right.

Sideboard:

The 8 slots could be better filled with a mix of Extirpates
What would you bring Extirpate in against that more Haunting Echoes wouldn't be better?



I think the man plan simply wastes to many slots. That simple.

and some Counterbalances// Sensei's Divining Tops. I played these for some time now and I am really impressed. Counter/Top wins games you don't have business winning. It's just so amazing against a wide variety of decks (I know this contradicts with the "UU for Counterspell is hard to get" argument). I would venture to say that Counterbalance and Top would take almost the same amount of sb spaces as The Man Plan would. Except this way, you have a better way of ending the game.

Adding a third color is always an option that gives big rewards for a big risk.

Let's see:

I'll list just the most obvious cards...

White:
- Swords to Plowshares
- Vindicate
- Decree of Justice
- various Disenchant effects
...
kind of meh... If considering these, why not simply play U/W Landstill...

Red:
- Burn (Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice)
- Pyroclasm or Rough//Tumble (does this deck really need more creature kill?)
- good Artifact hate
- nice sideboard hate vs. white and blue

Green:
- Pernicous Deed (Now that's better than Explosives)
- Regrowth (might turn into Demonic Tutor mid- to lategame, really huge if revealed with Fact or Fiction)
- Krosan Grip (uncounterable Enchantment and Artifact hate can't be that bad)

Sweet.


I think of the above mentioned options, if any I would probably settle with Green... Looks to be the most powerful. Deed >>> Explosives/Keg/Disk.If im going to splash another color its going to be white for Decree of Justice.

[smeagol]

What would you bring Extirpate in against that more Haunting Echoes wouldn't be better?

A few words on the Extirpate issue:

The pro of Extirpate is being uncounterable and being cheap. Haunting Echoes' 5 mana investment can be pretty harsh. I see Echoes as a late game win option, not as a combo disruption card. I've won many matches thanks to Echoes against lategame decks like MWC, Rifter and the like. Against aggro its value is highly reduced (and then again, with the printing of Damnation Echoes is a great follow up, that can tear an aggro deck appart).

Extirpate, however, plays a completely different role. Being able to hose a combo with B seems pretty solid. Even against Thresh it's a nice addition (Hitting a Fetchland with Extirpate wrecks havoc on the land light Thrshhold builds... sure, they will adjust to it by diversifying their fetchland base, but anyways...). The Threshhold matchup is probably decided by land superiority, thus I judge Extirpate, Wasteland and Stifle key in this matchup.
Even extirpating Force of Will is a great boon. Admitted, against aggro Extirpate is somewhat lacking, but I don't think this warrants excluding the most unfair card having seen print in recent time from a deck that seems perfectly made for it.


Concerning additional finishers:



It doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Things like Teferai, Errant of Ephemeron, and Possessed Aven come to mind.

Um... maybe Morphling or Psychatog? Otherwise Teferi sounds good...

Concerning Ghastly Demise:


You play just as many fetch lands as grow plus Brainstorm, Wasteland, and Stifle. It’s not that hard to use effectively if timed right.

I'm still not sold on the concept. Against Goblins it's still only a 1 for 1 trade, it's overall weak against Threshhold (hitting a Werebear requires 4 cards in the grave, it doesn't kill Enforcers and Mongeese... the only thing it can reliably kill is Meddling Mage). Giving the opponent another reason to board in Tormod's crypt (in addition to Crucible Recursion) doesn't seem to good to me, as well.

Concerning Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top:


I would venture to say that Counterbalance and Top would take almost the same amount of sb spaces as The Man Plan would. Except this way, you have a better way of ending the game.

You could always play the Tops in the Maindeck, strengthening Fetchland shuffles...
Sorry to say it, but the sideboard "man plan" just seems somehow lacking to me. I mean seriously.... we're talking about Dandan here? It's good against Solidarity and what else?

The Counterbalance plan is much more versatile and can be brought in against a lot more decks:
- Threshhold's Curve: lots of 1cc, some 2cc, few 4cc, few 5 cc.
- Burn's Curve: lots of 1cc, some 2cc, few 6cc (Fireblast). (Don't laugh, Burn is a tough matchup and Counterbalance can be quite devastating for the Burn player)
- Goblins: you don't want Counterbalance here...
- Solidarity: Key spells at 1cc and 2cc.
- Random Decks: Most Decks run at least some cheap spells, thus Counterbalance can be boarded accordingly.

Sideboard cards should be either:
a.) as versatile as possible
or
b.) as powerful as a hoser can be

"The man plan" is neither versatile nor powerful. If there's more than 30 % solidarirty in your meta it might be necessary to take the risk of otherwise dead sideboard slots. My meta has at the very most 2 solidarity player (more often than not 0), thus I wouldn't consider wasting 8 slots in my board.


A final word on Abyss vs Goblins:

Warchief >>> Damnation >>> Abyss

Where as all get owned by Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain in that matchup, of course. Still, hasted men are nothing to sneeze at. And a clever Goblin player who sits on a Vial and a couple of lands can mean serious trouble for sorcery based removal (I once got owned by Caller of the Claw from a Goblin player after I wrathed his overextended board... wasn't funny at all).

Don't get me wrong, I really liked The Abyss back in the days, but I think Magic has changed so dramatically, that it's nothing more than a nice to look at Legends card nowadays. Maybe in a meta filled with Sea Stompy or Old School Zoo (you know with Serendibs and Kird Apes...)...

[Whit3 Ghost]

How's EE been working for you?

And speaking of Teferi, why not Meloku?

[URABAHN]

A few words on the Extirpate issue:

The pro of Extirpate is being uncounterable and being cheap. Haunting Echoes' 5 mana investment can be pretty harsh. I see Echoes as a late game win option, not as a combo disruption card. I've won many matches thanks to Echoes against lategame decks like MWC, Rifter and the like. Against aggro its value is highly reduced (and then again, with the printing of Damnation Echoes is a great follow up, that can tear an aggro deck appart).

Since overlord95 and I have tested Extirpate in many different ways, I'm going to jump in here and tell you it's overrated against combo--it might even suck. A smart Solidarity player can elect to play spells in response to each other, not letting you have priority, not letting you play Extirpate. IGGy Pop can also play Rituals in response to each other, so can TES. Extirpate is only good against combo if you can stop them from winning by removing Tendrils or Empty the Warrens or Brain Freeze from the game, 2 of which kill you before the physical copy of the card hits the yard so you can play Extirpate.


Extirpate, however, plays a completely different role. Being able to hose a combo with B seems pretty solid. Even against Thresh it's a nice addition (Hitting a Fetchland with Extirpate wrecks havoc on the land light Thrshhold builds... sure, they will adjust to it by diversifying their fetchland base, but anyways...). The Threshhold matchup is probably decided by land superiority, thus I judge Extirpate, Wasteland and Stifle key in this matchup.
Even extirpating Force of Will is a great boon. Admitted, against aggro Extirpate is somewhat lacking, but I don't think this warrants excluding the most unfair card having seen print in recent time from a deck that seems perfectly made for it.

Board control strategies are already an uphill battle for Gro, see Rabid Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck, and Rifter. There's so much creature removal in those decks that Gro cannot counter every single one. Extirpate targeting Force of Will isn't going to help you do what you're already able to do, kill their men.


Concerning Ghastly Demise:

I'm still not sold on the concept. Against Goblins it's still only a 1 for 1 trade, it's overall weak against Threshhold (hitting a Werebear requires 4 cards in the grave, it doesn't kill Enforcers and Mongeese... the only thing it can reliably kill is Meddling Mage). Giving the opponent another reason to board in Tormod's crypt (in addition to Crucible Recursion) doesn't seem to good to me, as well.

Instant Speed removal is very important against Goblins. Try playing a deck with 4 Chainer's Edict, 4 Diabolic Edict, and 4 Innocent Blood against Goblins and you'll see for yourself. Kill Warchief to rob the other Goblins of haste. Kill a lethal Piledriver. Kill Goblin Lackey.



A final word on Abyss vs Goblins:

Warchief >>> Damnation >>> Abyss

Where as all get owned by Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain in that matchup, of course. Still, hasted men are nothing to sneeze at. And a clever Goblin player who sits on a Vial and a couple of lands can mean serious trouble for sorcery based removal (I once got owned by Caller of the Claw from a Goblin player after I wrathed his overextended board... wasn't funny at all).

Don't get me wrong, I really liked The Abyss back in the days, but I think Magic has changed so dramatically, that it's nothing more than a nice to look at Legends card nowadays. Maybe in a meta filled with Sea Stompy or Old School Zoo (you know with Serendibs and Kird Apes...)...

Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain are not optimal choices in the maindeck, I'd rather have a card that makes the other player sacrifice a creature every turn, especially against Goblins.


"The man plan" is neither versatile nor powerful. If there's more than 30 % solidarirty in your meta it might be necessary to take the risk of otherwise dead sideboard slots. My meta has at the very most 2 solidarity player (more often than not 0), thus I wouldn't consider wasting 8 slots in my board.

Do you know where we play Magic, smeagol? We live on the East Coast of the US, the comboest place on Earth. You live in Germany, which is dominated by Aggro-Control, the unhappiest place on Earth for Solidarity. Without 4 Flesh Reaver and 4 Dandan, how would you beat Solidarity with this deck? Counterbalance?

[overlord95]

Since overlord95 and I have tested Extirpate in many different ways, I'm going to jump in here and tell you it's overrated against combo--it might even suck. A smart Solidarity player can elect to play spells in response to each other, not letting you have priority, not letting you play Extirpate. IGGy Pop can also play Rituals in response to each other, so can TES. Extirpate is only good against combo if you can stop them from winning by removing Tendrils or Empty the Warrens or Brain Freeze from the game, 2 of which kill you before the physical copy of the card hits the yard so you can play Extirpate.



Board control strategies are already an uphill battle for Gro, see Rabid Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck, and Rifter. There's so much creature removal in those decks that Gro cannot counter every single one. Extirpate targeting Force of Will isn't going to help you do what you're already able to do, kill their men.



Instant Speed removal is very important against Goblins. Try playing a deck with 4 Chainer's Edict, 4 Diabolic Edict, and 4 Innocent Blood against Goblins and you'll see for yourself. Kill Warchief to rob the other Goblins of haste. Kill a lethal Piledriver. Kill Goblin Lackey.




Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain are not optimal choices in the maindeck, I'd rather have a card that makes the other player sacrifice a creature every turn, especially against Goblins.



Do you know where we play Magic, smeagol? We live on the East Coast of the US, the comboest place on Earth. You live in Germany, which is dominated by Aggro-Control, the unhappiest place on Earth for Solidarity. Without 4 Flesh Reaver and 4 Dandan, how would you beat Solidarity with this deck? Counterbalance?
Yea he pretty much beat me to it. Extirpate really is justa I win more cards in alot of situation and really is just isnt worth the spaces it takes up.

How's EE been working for you?Ive been loving it. Having the abilty to detroy things Aether Vial and Pithing Needle all the while staying in just 2 colors as been fantastic.

And speaking of Teferi, why not Meloku?
That works just as well, I guess playing either of these is really meta game dependent. Meloku for the heavy aggro meta games and Teferi for the heavier Grow/Solidarity meta games.

[smeagol]

Thanks for the nice feedback. Really helps me a lot to understand your reasoning behind the deck and understand your specific card choices (I would for instance never consider EE in a 2 color deck... but your arguments are sound... so I agree that EE is better than Keg - though it still tempts me to at least add another off color dual to get the possibility for a 3rd counter on the Explosives).

The deck seems like an excellent foil against a lot of commonly played decks to me.


Do you know where we play Magic, smeagol? We live on the East Coast of the US, the comboest place on Earth. You live in Germany, which is dominated by Aggro-Control, the unhappiest place on Earth for Solidarity.

Happy me then. :D


Since overlord95 and I have tested Extirpate in many different ways, I'm going to jump in here and tell you it's overrated against combo--it might even suck. A smart Solidarity player can elect to play spells in response to each other, not letting you have priority, not letting you play Extirpate. IGGy Pop can also play Rituals in response to each other, so can TES. Extirpate is only good against combo if you can stop them from winning by removing Tendrils or Empty the Warrens or Brain Freeze from the game, 2 of which kill you before the physical copy of the card hits the yard so you can play Extirpate.

True enough. But a smart control player also has 4 Duress in his board and takes appropriate mulligans when necessary to get one of these, in order to be able to take an important combo piece on his first turn and follow it up with Extirpate. Just a thought.


Instant Speed removal is very important against Goblins. Try playing a deck with 4 Chainer's Edict, 4 Diabolic Edict, and 4 Innocent Blood against Goblins and you'll see for yourself. Kill Warchief to rob the other Goblins of haste. Kill a lethal Piledriver. Kill Goblin Lackey.

Yeah, that is exactly my reasoning against The Abyss. A smart Goblin player can just play around it. So why not play a Decree of Pain instead, which can at least be cycled away, if necessary?

[URABAHN]

True enough. But a smart control player also has 4 Duress in his board and takes appropriate mulligans when necessary to get one of these, in order to be able to take an important combo piece on his first turn and follow it up with Extirpate. Just a thought.

Icky! Would you really mulligan in Game 2 and 3 until you found Duress and Extirpate?


Yeah, that is exactly my reasoning against The Abyss. A smart Goblin player can just play around it. So why not play a Decree of Pain instead, which can at least be cycled away, if necessary?

Why not board in Tsabo's Decree which will destroy all Goblins in play and make the opponent discard all the Goblins in their hand?

[smeagol]

Icky! Would you really mulligan in Game 2 and 3 until you found Duress and Extirpate?

Of course not, but if your hand doesn't contain Duress and/or Extirpate or a decent mix of card quality it's probably a sure mulligan post board anyway against combo if you want to have a chance.
Fact is, that Solidarity makes only a very minor part of my meta game, therefore I don't want to dedicate 8 slots (a.ka. "the man plan") just for that matchup. Extirpate seems to be the more flexible choice for a more diverse meta, that can play a role against other decks as well (by the way doesn't seem too sucky against Iggy as well...).


Why not board in Tsabo's Decree which will destroy all Goblins in play and make the opponent discard all the Goblins in their hand?

I'm not talking about playing Decree of Pain instead of the sideboard Tsabo's Decree, but instead of the main deck Abyss.

[overlord95]

Fact is, that Solidarity makes only a very minor part of my meta game, therefore I don't want to dedicate 8 slots (a.ka. "the man plan") just for that matchup.
Even thou Solidarity might comprise only a slight portion of the Meta game pie where you are, The Man Plan comes in against other things that aren’t Solidarity for instants Iggy Pop, Grow, the mirror, and damn well pretty much anything, you feel that would have a hard time dealing with two mana four power creatures.

Extirpate seems to be the more flexible choice for a more diverse meta, that can play a role against other decks as well If your bringing in Extirpate just for the combo match up, to me this would seem like a even more narrow side boarding strategy then The Man Plan. On the other hand lets say you do opt to bring in Extirpate against something that isnt combo, Extripate is contingante on something else happening first for it do what it has to do to be good(for example you might have to cast Damnation then Extirpate which just seems weak).

(by the way doesn't seem too sucky against Iggy as well...).Yes you are right im sure its amazing in this match up. But yet again its just an I win more card in this match up. Between Stifle, countermagic, and The Man Plan(games 2 and 3) this is more then enough to take them to the cleaners.

I'm not talking about playing Decree of Pain instead of the sideboard Tsabo's Decree, but instead of the main deck Abyss. What ive been trying to explain to you is that there is more synergy between The Abyss and wrath effects then wrath effects and more wrath effects.

[smeagol]

What ive been trying to explain to you is that there is more synergy between The Abyss and wrath effects then wrath effects and more wrath effects.

Yeah, I see your point. It is, however, still a more narrow card (not to say quite a dead card slot) vs. most of the field, where as a card like Decree of Pain can be cycled away at least. I'd rather have the redundance of another wrath-like effect than a "potentially" broken board-control enchantment that's otherwise dead against a large portion of the field. I mean... seriously against how many different decks is The Abyss good?

You probably beat an aggro deck more with power than with synergy.


On the other hand lets say you do opt to bring in Extirpate against something that isnt combo, Extripate is contingante on something else happening first for it do what it has to do to be good(for example you might have to cast Damnation then Extirpate which just seems weak).

I wouldn't even consider boarding Extirpate vs. Decks against which I have to resolve mass removal in order to win. This would indeed be a very weak strategy...

On the other hand, you still have the option of hitting other key spells or even fetchlands (thus strengthening the LD part of the deck) with Extirpate. Sure Extirpate is completely ractive, but the sheer power of potentially ripping apart an opponent's main strategy seems good (even taking a burn spell, that has only be cast once in a given game from a burn player can be good times - I don't know how many Burn players are in your area, but we have quite some of them infesting our meta, and nothing sucks more than losing to cheap burn ^^).

Dandan being boarded in vs. Grow does make sense to me, but Fleshreaveer looks very suicidal.

By the way, what are your experiences with Pithing Needle played against you? The Needle has quite some key targets (Explosives and Factory - if both are needled, seems like the deck is losing, unless you win with Haunting Echoes).

Perhaps just because of that the deck should play a 2/1 split of Explosives and Keg.

And another thing that just came to my mind: Why not play some Duress maindeck?
I like to have more diverse answers than several 4 off's that are only good against certain strategies (like the Demise and the Counterspells). Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite a fan of random one-offs, that at least give me a chance to swing some unfavorable games.

Keep on, the discussion gets interesting. :smile:

Edit: Just received my missing Extirpates and Damnation with the mail. I threw the deck together and stumbled across Piracy Charm. Doesn't look too shabby to me:
- kills the Lackey
- kills unthresholded Bears
- kills Confidants
- can be used when in topdeckmode to force instant discard
- is blue, so pitches at least to Force, if the other uses aren`t relevant

With that in mind I made some changes to your original list (tweakings in order to match my meta):
- 2 Demise
- 2 Counterspells
- 1 Engineered Explosives
- 1 The Abyss
- 1 Polluted Delta (yeah, I know... "don't mess with the mana base...", but 23 lands seem to be enough)

+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Piracy Charm
+ 1 Decree of Pain
+ 1 Powder Keg
+ 1 Morphling

Currently the board looks like this:
4 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast (vs. Goblins and especially Burn)
1 Duress
2 Tsabo's Decree (only have 2, unfortunately... but one resolved should be enough anyway)
1 Ghastly Demise
3 open slots (most probably either some kind of creature or more discard... the deck has already enough creature hate - even thought about Headhunter/Riptide Pilferer in this slot)

I guess these changes look terrible to you, but anyways... Feel free to comment. :smile:

[overlord95]

Yeah, I see your point. It is, however, still a more narrow card (not to say quite a dead card slot) vs. most of the field, where as a card like Decree of Pain can be cycled away at least. The percentages of having any one of in your opening hand is only 12%, these odds are only increased to 20% by turn 5. IMO sence the card in question is a one of it should be objectively stronger sence your going to see it less often.

I mean... seriously against how many different decks is The Abyss good? Goblins, Zoo, Fearie stompy, Grow(the creature heavy builds), Survival, pretty much every build of Fish or Fish style deck, Angel Stompy, and Sui/Red Death just to name a few.

On the other hand, you still have the option of hitting other key spells or even fetch lands (thus strengthening the LD part of the deck) with Extirpate But the problem with doing this is that it actually doesn’t effect what’s in play at the time.

(even taking a burn spell, that has only be cast once in a given game from a burn player can be good times - I don't know how many Burn players are in your area, but we have quite some of them infesting our meta, and nothing sucks more than losing to cheap burn ^^).
If your really worried about this match up you could play something like Chalice of the Void and just beat them.

Dandan being boarded in vs. Grow does make sense to me, but Fleshreaveer looks very suicidal. Since in this match up they have no reach I view my life total as a asset not as something I should protect.

lBy the way, what are your experiences with Pithing Needle played against you? The Needle has quite some key targets (Explosives and Factory - if both are needled, seems like the deck is losing, unless you win with Haunting Echoes). Pithing Needle can be a problem if resolved in multiples. However, this does also give you the opportunity to find the answer to it potentially a second or third time.

And another thing that just came to my mind: Why not play some Duress maindeck?
I like to have more diverse answers than several 4 off's that are only good against certain strategies (like the Demise and the Counterspells). Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite a fan of random one-offs, that at least give me a chance to swing some unfavorable games.That’s definitely an option but this decision is really dependent on whether or not your meta game permits its. One thing thou I wouldn't trade Counterspell for Duress. What you’re doing here is trading an objectively stronger counterspell with fewer requirements for another one at sorcery speed which losses to the top deck what ever. Counterspell is objectively less dead in any given match up because the only requirements are having something worth countering on the stack and it being on the stack.

[smeagol]

The percentages of having any one of in your opening hand is only 12%, these odds are only increased to 20% by turn 5. IMO sence the card in question is a one of it should be objectively stronger sence your going to see it less often.

In fact the percentages are even lower. The chance for drawing any one-off in your starting hand is 11,66... %, 18,33... % by turn 5 baring any additional draws (which this deck has). (I'm doing a course on statistics and probability this term).
These figures still shouldn't keep you from playing one-offs in a deck. I agree, that a one-off should either be as powerful as possible or to be as versatile as possible (and still fill an important role in the deck), to warrant any inclusion.

Still I'd rather have the versatile card, as a lot of matches are solely decided by the player who drew fewer dead cards (of course you still have the option of shuffling a dead card in a given matchup away with brainstorm and fetchlands... ).

And I also like to match the number of cards I board out against a certain deck with possible replacements from the board (this however is quite often really hard to figure out, unfortunately). Thus I also like cards in my sideboard that fit multiple roles against more than one deck. I wouldn't completely dismiss your "man plan", if it works for you, fine.
After discussing the matter, I can understand your approach to it and see, that it's probably a necessary evil in order to fit your combo-filled meta (from your opening post I see that you aren't too satisfied with it, otherwise you wouldn't have put it to debate).


One thing thou I wouldn't trade Counterspell for Duress. What you’re doing here is trading an objectively stronger counterspell with fewer requirements for another one at sorcery speed which losses to the top deck what ever. Counterspell is objectively less dead in any given match up because the only requirements are having something worth countering on the stack and it being on the stack.

True to some extend.

I'm not talking about playing Duress over Counterspell, but playing a mix of them. They both fill similar roles.

In my opinion, however, the deck needs a pro-active counterspell that comes online on your first turn (in addition to FoW) to beat certain strategies, or to delay the game long enough for other cards to matter (like Standstill). More often than not you want to protect a key card with a Duress (like Crucible or Echoes), when you need to cast it and don't have the UU to spare. Knowing what the opponent is up to do on his next one or two turns is a real boon, as well.

Duress can do this, while Counterspell can't. The main argument against Duress might be the weakening of Stifle (as you more often than not don't have U open to stifle the first turn Fetchland use).

I don't see this deck as draw go, where you just play lands and keep them open to counter possible threats.


But the problem with doing this is that it actually doesn’t effect what’s in play at the time.

With Damnation, Ghastly Demise and artifact-based removal you probably should have enough cards to intefere with oposing threats. And still, I won't board Extirpate against a pure aggro deck...
It's just another way punishing weak draws or weakly built decks (lots of decks will have to adapt to the threat of being Extirpated from the game, if they still want to have a chance. I can't see Threshhold Decks for example only relying on 4 Swords to Plows as their only removal in the future... if a deck wants to be serious contender in a worldfull of Extirpates it has to change from the "play 4 off's for more consistency" philospohy. The enormous size of the Legacy card pool offers so many alternatives...).
Also it's great in Control mirrors, as well. Don't you think it would be horrible for U/B Landstill (or other Landstill decks for that matter...) to get an early wasted Mishra's Factory extirpated, for example?

[URABAHN]

smeagol, how has your testing been against Goblins? I'm having a very difficult time beating Goblins losing nearly 80% of the time Pre-board.

[nitewolf9]

You should run the uncle istvan/spiteful bully combo in this deck. Now that's what I call tempo!

[smeagol]

smeagol, how has your testing been against Goblins? I'm having a very difficult time beating Goblins losing nearly 80% of the time Pre-board.

I only did a few test games vs. a mono red goblin build (including 4 wastes and 4 ports). I'd say the matchup is pretty even, if not slightly in favor of the U/B Landstill Deck. I made another change to the U/B Deck before playing the games, replacing the random Morphling (seemed from my testing vs. other decks, that Factories and Echoes are enough win conditions most of the time) with another Decree of Pain.

There are, however, some important observations, I made:

- Decree of Pain is huge in this match-up (if you can get the 5 lands into play, that is)
- An early Crucible is key, as it can fight against the land disruption Goblins has to offer.
- spot removal is only useful in the first few turns to get rid of the Lackey or a Warchief
- Mass removal followed by Haunting Echoes is often gg (especially if you can grab Warchief, Piledriver and/or Ringleader with it)
- Ringleaders are a must counter
- Standstill is good, if the Goblin player doesn't have Vial and only one or two smaller Goblins in play (with no Tinkerer involved)
- The longer the game goes, the better the chances to win (simple as that really... if you can survive the first onslaught, the cardadvantage will win for you)
- Try to trade Mass Removal spells for at least 2 Goblins at a time.
- any hand with fewer than 3 lands should be considered a mulligan, unless you have 2 basic lands//Fetchlands (including an Island) and a brainstorm (everything else will make the land disruption of the Goblin Deck own you) .

Cards you don't necessarily want to draw:

- Duress (only hits Vials, however quite a good first turn play, as you can more or less anticipate th Goblin player's first few turns)
- Stifle (has some uses in this matchu-up, but most often it's only a Land Destruction counter or a sinkhole on opposing Fetchlands.. overall not that strong vs. Goblins... probably besides Duress the first card to board out)
- Fact or Fiction is okay, but very slow vs. aggro... I even considered Thirst for Knowledge instead in this slot, but haven't tested that yet (though the artifact count is quite low with only 2 Crucibles and 3 Explosives/Kegs). Even Impulse might be an idea (Cheap dig at instant speed can't be that bad).
I wouldn't consider Skeletal Scrying, as the Life Loss seems to be quite harsh without any possibility to gain it back (I'm a fan of Scrying in B/W Control Decks with Exalted Angels... but U/B doesn't have that).

Cards you absolutely don't want to see from the Goblin player:

- Goblin Tinkerer !!! that little bugger owns Factories, therefore get rid of him as soon as possible, as an active tinkerer will also rend Standstill useless
- Wastelands and Ports are a big nuissance, without Crucible you're in for some trouble

Goblins do get the nuts from time to time... Losses will occur, even with 3 Damnation and 2 Decrees maindeck.

I guess this deck really wants a third Crucible and then maybe replacing Facts for Thirst.

Thoughts?

[Mr. Nipples]

Stifle (has some uses in this matchu-up, but most often it's only a Land Destruction counter or a sinkhole on opposing Fetchlands.. overall not that strong vs. Goblins... probably besides Duress the first card to board out)
Stifle is a lot better in the goblins match up than you give it credit for being. Not only does it counter fetches and wastes, but it's also an answer to ringleader (which you said is important in this match up), matron, and even siege-gang if it needs to be. You pointed out that both ringleader and wasteland can be problematic cards in this matchup, and it seems to me that stifle answers both of those cards fairly effectively. I really don't think I would consider boarding out such a versatile card in this match up.

[smeagol]

Stifle is a lot better in the goblins match up than you give it credit for being. Not only does it counter fetches and wastes, but it's also an answer to ringleader (which you said is important in this match up), matron, and even siege-gang if it needs to be. You pointed out that both ringleader and wasteland can be problematic cards in this matchup, and it seems to me that stifle answers both of those cards fairly effectively. I really don't think I would consider boarding out such a versatile card in this match up.

True to some extend. Stifle is some good against Goblins, agreed. But to be honest, I'd rather have Blue Elemental Blasts and Tsabo's Decree post boarding, which are overall more effective than Stifle.

You've something like 5-6 sideboard cards for the Goblin matchup and overall Stifle seems like the weakest link (something has to be boarded out, right? and I'm pretty sure it isn't a good idea to take out the Standstills. I might be wrong with this assumption, as Standstill with an active Vial on the board is just a dead card... Anyway, that's what I would want to take out. The only other card that could probably be boarded out is Counterspell).

Blue Blast >>> Stifle vs. Goblins, as it not only prevents the draw of Ringleader, but destroys it as well (and all other Goblins, too... yeah, Piledriver has Pro:blue, but it can be countered anyway). The only drawback is the increased susceptibility to Wastelands... I think I would take that risk.

The versatility of Stifle is good, when preparing for a somehow open metagame. Stifle won't be a dead card in a wide range of matchups. But after boarding you'll want more specific and more powerful cards instead (and don't forget the psychologiacl aspect of Stifle, if you stifled a Fetchland in game 1 - when ever you've got U up, the opponent won't want to use his fetches, especially in land light draws in game 2... thus Stifle performs a nice little mind trick, virtually Force Spiking the opponent for the first few turns. It's a bit like Daze, which often enough gets boarded out in Threshhold Decks - however you never can be sure, whether the opponent boarded it out or not).

[hi-val]

Some thoughts:

If you're looking for finishers, I'm a big fan of finishers that do more than just "finish". Twisted Abomination comes to mind immediately, and Masticore seems pretty decent as well (as well as Razormane).

[freakish777]

Your sideboard looks awful on paper.

Tsabo's Decree? I think I'd rather play Plague to be honest. Not having to be reliant on 6 mana against a deck that:

A) Goldfishes turn 3 at fastest, and turn 4.5 or so on average
B) Plays a mana denial sub-theme
C) Can rip Ringleader off the top afterwards anyways

just doesn't seem all that good. It's not like you aren't going to have have FoW back up for their Disenchant half the time anyways. This part I don't think I'm anywhere close to wrong on.

While I'm in support of the man plan to apply pressure against combo decks, I don't like 8 of those slots being creatures. I'd rather see 4 Negator and 4 Cabal Therapy (should have good synergy with Factory/Crucible), with 4 Duress already in the board, it's likely to be Duress 5 - 8 most of the time, a small amount of the time hit nothing, an equally small amount of the time be Double Duress with Factory, and an even smaller amount of the time be absolutely nuts nailing double Ritual/LED/Reset.

[overlord95]

Your sideboard looks awful on paper.True it might but that’s why we test things like this before we play them.

A) Goldfishes turn 3 at fastest, and turn 4.5 or so on average
B) Plays a mana denial sub-theme
C) Can rip Ringleader off the top afterwards anyways
a) In this match up the only things in the deck that don’t disrupt them in some kina way are the colored mana sources.
b) My deck does that to.
c) Now this is just bad logic, the same thing can be said for them ripping a disenchant of the top right after you resolve plague.


just doesn't seem all that good. It's not like you aren't going to have have FoW back up for their Disenchant half the time anyways. This part I don't think I'm anywhere close to wrong on.Who’s to say you aren’t going to have the FoW/Stifle back up for the Ring Leader just as often.

While I'm in support of the man plan to apply pressure against combo decks, I don't like 8 of those slots being creatures. I'd rather see 4 Negator and 4 Cabal Therapy (should have good synergy with Factory/Crucible), with 4 Duress already in the board, it's likely to be Duress 5 - 8 most of the time, a small amount of the time hit nothing, an equally small amount of the time be Double Duress with Factory, and an even smaller amount of the time be absolutely nuts nailing double Ritual/LED/Reset. At a certain point in the game more disruption doesn’t really do anything cuz you still have to win 2 out of the 3 game your going to play in 50 mintues, and boarding in only 4 creatures just isn’t going to cut it.

[freakish777]

The problem with you playing a mana-denial sub-theme is that it doesn't help you as much as it helps goblins (ie, playing mana denial in Control is worse than playing mana denial in Aggro). As far as C) goes, it's not bad logic, it's simply a specific situation I have in mind in which they've already emptied their hand (likely) and the difference between them ripping Ringleader after Tsabo's and resolving it where they suddenly have 2 more damage and a potential hand again, and the scenario where they're left with no creatures in play and rip Disenchant and resolve it. They still have no creatures in play after resolving Disenchant.

As far as the man plan, while I have my doubts, I'll take your word that 8 is the correct number of creatures to board in. That said, I still think Negator is better than one of the 4/4's for 2. His drawback is essentially irrelevant in the matches you want to board him in, a turn two 4 power creature kills the same turn a turn three 5 power one does, and in the scenario where you don't have one on the optimal turn, Negator kills a turn faster.

[URABAHN]

The problem with you playing a mana-denial sub-theme is that it doesn't help you as much as it helps goblins (ie, playing mana denial in Control is worse than playing mana denial in Aggro). As far as C) goes, it's not bad logic, it's simply a specific situation I have in mind in which they've already emptied their hand (likely) and the difference between them ripping Ringleader after Tsabo's and resolving it where they suddenly have 2 more damage and a potential hand again, and the scenario where they're left with no creatures in play and rip Disenchant and resolve it. They still have no creatures in play after resolving Disenchant.

In scenario C, while they wouldn't have any creatures in play after resolving Disenchant, they may still have a fist full of Goblins. Also, if you've only 1 Plague in play, what's to stop them from resolving Ringleader, refilling their hand, and bashing for 1 point of damage?

I like how Tsabo's Decree is an instant and you can play it in reponse to Rishadan Port, which is a great target for your own Wasteland, btw.

On the other hand, I like how E. Plague costs 3 and neuters half their army.


As far as the man plan, while I have my doubts, I'll take your word that 8 is the correct number of creatures to board in. That said, I still think Negator is better than one of the 4/4's for 2. His drawback is essentially irrelevant in the matches you want to board him in, a turn two 4 power creature kills the same turn a turn three 5 power one does, and in the scenario where you don't have one on the optimal turn, Negator kills a turn faster.

While Negator may kill a turn faster, he comes out a turn later. It's not like Red Death where you can Ritual out that bad boy on Turn one. For the record, I do not like boarding in Flesh Reaver against Red Gro, IGGy Pop, or TES. I think giving your opponent 2 copies of Tendrils of Agony every time you attack is very, very bad. Against Solidarity, Black Gro, and White Gro, go nuts with Flesh Reaver

[freakish777]

Mostly I was thinking of Negator against Iggy/TES since it doesn't make their job easier. Yeah, there's no Rit here, but Negator still gets the job done in a timely fashion.

My scenario C) as previously mentioned was some very specific I had in mind (where they've "aggro'd out" their hand).

Personally, while I like the Abyss, it really does need to say "At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she sacrifices a creature." This would take care of 'Goose and make it not mostly trash against Thresh. That said, I'm partial to Night of Souls Betrayal, and I'm a fan of redundant spell types against aggressive decks as they generally don't play sweepers. Having a 2 card hardlock against the most popular deck in Legacy seems good to me, instead of 6 mana spells.

Lastly, the talked about white-splash would also give you Meddling Mage out of the board which would probably strengthen your combo matches rediculously.

[nitewolf9]

That said, I'm partial to Night of Souls Betrayal, and I'm a fan of redundant spell types against aggressive decks as they generally don't play sweepers. Having a 2 card hardlock against the most popular deck in Legacy seems good to me, instead of 6 mana spells.



Night of Soul's betrayal is legendary and costs one more than e.plague, so I don't think that would be too great...I'd much rather run plague. Tsabo's decree is extremely powerful and I think you underestimate the ability of this deck to stall goblins until it has 6 mana, where you just win with one spell.

[raharu]

Sugestions:

Thoughtseize and Damnation in the obvious places, Tombstalker as a finisher and maybe a new menber of team man-plan , Bitterblossom could warrant inclusion and could possible be good in the goblins MU (an infinite stream of chump blockers allowing you to stall more effectively into the backbreaking Tsabo's Decree, which wins tribal MUs on it own), Mutavault is powerful enough for roughly 2 slots, and I would presume that more spot removal is warranted due th the advent of a certant 2 mana fattie that seems to be warping/ breaking our metagame...

[Nihil Credo]

Interesting: if you had posted this tomorrow, it would have been an exact 1-year necro.

Oh, wait, it's a leap year. Congratulations.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Interesting: if you had posted this tomorrow, it would have been an exact 1-year necro.

Oh, wait, it's a leap year. Congratulations.
What a blast from the past! The perfect 1-year necro is sweet.

Mentioning Bitterblossom makes me wonder if this is the deck for the Contamination lock. It shuts off your blue spells, but not your removal or win conditions. Crucible + Factory gives you another way to support Contamination, too.

//11
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
3x Intuition

//7
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell

//7
4x Smother
3x Damnation

//11
3x Bitterblossom
3x Contamination
3x Tombstalker
2x Crucible of Worlds

//24
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
5x Island
2x Swamp

Intuition and Bitterblossom are begging for Cabal Therapy to be in the deck, but I doubt it would work out very well.

Not having room for Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying sucks, and is probably a mistake.

Contamination is really the only way I can think of to take advantage of running only blue and black in Landstill. Without it, you're going to have a tough time justifying the absence of green and/or white.

[raharu]

Would it be wise to play a deck such as this in a metagame infested with Armaggedon Stax and Solidarity? If not, what control deck would be?

Also, considering the way Legacy in general is shaping up to be, would Nevi's Disk be any good? Considering that everyone is at least mildly prepared for wastelock/ nonbasic hate, would it be wise to remove the Wastelands?

[godryk]

A friend of mine asked me if I could help him ti built a Landstill-kind deck, he plays T1 and only had Volcanics and U Seas, so I proposed him to play UB with just 2-3 Volcanics to include EE usefully. I just copied typical Landstill numbers and redundant amount of answers and helped him to wreck my Thres deck. I don't remember very well, but some rough numbers would look like this:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare (he loves the card)

4 Brainstorm
4 Landstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Diabolic Edict
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Damnation
2 EE

2 Tombstalker

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Fetchies
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

It was just a quick list. Redundant removal and sweepers are evil necessary, some cards may chnage, edicts can become other removal spells, but he liked those and, actually, Chainer's Edict flashback IS payed. I suggested Ghastly Demise and Smother as other options. I don't know how will it play against other decks, but seemed to have a fair good game against UGw Thresh...

On the other hand, Red splsh makes me think of Burning Wish, which could me nice.

Anyway this is basically a UB list.

[bigbear102]

There is no reason to be playing more than 1-2 volcs. It just opens you up to more hate. I would add more basics.

[Nihil Credo]

There is no reason to be playing more than 1-2 volcs. It just opens you up to more hate. I would add more basics.

Seconded. I run 1 Tropical Island in my U/B list for both EE@3 and SB Krosan Grips, and it worked fine for me.

Although I haven't played that deck in months, because once I realized a small splash was necessary to get access to decent artifact/enchantment removal, I could find very little reason not to switch the colours to UWb.

[Jak]

If you are playing 3 Volcs, have you tried Burning Wish? Grab a Damnation, Edict, Pyroclasm, Duress, etc.

[godryk]

Well, volcanics could have been any other blue dual available. Anyway, I think 2 is safer number than just 1, I know you can simply fetch the third color when needed for EE @3 or anything else, but we may want to use the third color once more and relying in only a single land for it is risky in my opinion.

[fallen_angel_poet2000]

This is what I run so far.

Lands
3 Island
3 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures
3 Undead Gladiator

Spells
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Damnation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Counterspell
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Duress
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will

I run Undead Gladiator like U/W Landstill ran Eternal Dragon. Granted I have to discard cards to get him back. The deck packs a little disruption, Creature kill, and counters to get me through the game. My sideboard changes day to day so I won't post it here. I think it is a decent deck and can be tinkered with to make it better.

[The Solution]

Test

[idraleo]

Is even possible for this deck to get Godhead of Awe + Night of Souls Betrayal as a little combo to shut down aggro? it also enable that we could control the only finisher in the table, doesn't look good?

[The Solution]

Test