[Deck] U/G/b Thresh - (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)

[Brushwagg]

Updated 9/15/06

OK been a while, but I think some new stuff needs to be written. I'll also keep it short since I know almost no one is going to read this page since the thread is 11 pages long.

First off this is, like any other Gro deck is Aggro Control. But instead of using White or Red this plays Black. Why Black? Basically it comes down to card drawing. When I say card drawing I don't mean just using Serum Visions and Brainstorm, I mean getting extra cards in hand. Something the other 2 splashes don't have.

The one thing though that is deck doesn't have access to is a big flyer. However what you lack in muscle you make up for in removal. Black is very deep in targeted removal.

Basic skeleton.

//Lands
3-4 Basic
6 Fetches
6-8 Dual Lands

//Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Night's Whisper
4 Mental Note/AK/Predict

//Counter/Control
3 Daze
2-3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
//Removal
4-6 Currently quite debated
//Creatures
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
2 Flyers??


Sideboard options:

Engineered Plague: If you have Goblins in your Meta, then you want at least 3 in your board. Also can randomly nail other Tribal themes.

Pernicious Deed: Mass removal. Good if your Meta is filled with weenie decks.

Withered Wretch: Mostly for the mirror or Survival. Combine with furnace and your opponent should have a hard time filling their graveyard up. In the mirror your opponent has to deal with this card.

Duress: This mainly for the combo match. Provides a more proactive solution, instead of just reactive.

Stifle: Another card for storm combo. Bringing these in plus your counter can make it hard for them to go off.

Naturalize: Enchantments and artifact removal.

Chill: If there is a lot of burn or Red Gro in your Meta. This can make life difficult for heavy Red decks.

Blue Elemental Blast: More Red hate. Also great for goblins.

Haunting Echoes: Could possibly find it's way into the board. However the 5 mana cost can be a little slow. Really only good in the control, or mirror match.



Here is my current list.

//Lands
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
1x Forest/Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

//Draw
4x Serum Visions
4x Mental Note
4x Brainstorm
3x Night's Whisper

//Counter/Control
3x Daze
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Ghastly Demise
3x Diabolic Edict

//Creatures
3x Dark Confidant
4x Werebear
4x Nimble Mongoose

//Sideboard
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
3x Naturalize
3x open slots

[Zilla]

I hate to bring up a sore subject, but I'll play the Devil's advocate here for minute. I haven't tested the black splash myself at all, so the following question is not a rhetorical one, but it's likely to be the most often asked:

Is Night's Whisper the only reason to run black in the deck over red or white?

A few points:

Ghastly Demise is probably worse than StP as pure creature removal, because it's useless in the Deadguy matchup, the Tog matchup, and against creatureless decks. At the very least, StP can act as emergency lifegain in certain creatureless matchups (e.g., Burn).

Possessed Aven/Sea Drake/Serendib Efreet are, in most metas, inferior win conditions to Dragon/Enforcer, and even if they're not, they're playable in the white and red splashes anyway.

So the arguments in favor of black are Night's Whisper, which is arguably superior to the other 2cc draw options in blue, and then, what? Engineered Plague and Duress?

In my experience, Pyroclasm is more than enough to make the Goblins matchup a favorable one, and is furthermore cheaper and less narrow than Plague. They also don't require multiples to be truly effective. This doesn't mean that 'clasm is definitevely superior, but it's certainly comparable at the least. Plague is probably better than Tivadar's Crusade though, since it doesn't require double-colored mana, which means it's harder for Goblins to keep you off the colors you need.

Now what about Duress? What matchups is it improving that aren't already positive for UGw and UGr? As far as I'm aware, Gro is pretty solid in the majority of the combo matchups, as well as most control matchups, thanks to 'geddon/Winter Orb. So what's it there for?

Next we have Unearth, which I don't think is a good idea for the deck. I suggested it only because someone else said that they were fond of Reanimate in the deck, and Unearth seems better than that, but I don't know that the deck really wants either one.

Confidant is an option, but I'll point out the obvious and note that it could be a real issue in a deck running 4x FoW.

Last we have Darkblast, which is decent, but not really that good on its own. Some claim it's a house against Goblins, but on its own that hasn't been my experience. Combined with E. Plague it's solid, but aside from that, you're forced to trade card advantage to get rid of most of their truly relevant threats.

Anyway, I'd just like to hear the arguments in favor of the black splash over the other two options. Again, this isn't rhetorical; I believe there are reasons, I just don't know what they are. What decks are you beating that the other Gro builds aren't and why? Which seem to be worse, and why?

[Kadishack]

Confidant is an option, but I'll point out the obvious and note that it could be a real issue in a deck running 4x FoW.
Yeah, i heard that casting lava axe on your self in tech...I think the deck has potential. I would run last gasp myself, that card is nuts and also I may run cutpurse as a 2-3 of in the deck because he is good. Also echoing decay seems like it would be good in here, what do you guys think? I think that card is nutty.

[Rastadon]

Like you said Brush, the splash in black offers a whole lot of card advantage. What it doesn't offer though is a beater. With that in mind I don't think this deck can't race UGr or UGw Gro, so why not take the deck in a different direction? Take out the Possessed Avens and throw in Hypnotic Specters and go for a more control route. If you're gonna use black, you might as well use what's best about it: it's card advantage.

I'll admit, I know just about 0 about this deck.

[outsideangel]

What about a build that used Mox Diamond and ran Winter Orb for mana disruption? With a Mox on the table you still get 2-3 mana a turn, which is usually what you have anyway, and Daze and Sea Drake work nicely with WOrb. Werebear provide exta mana until you get threshold, and then beats for 4, Confidant draws you a bunch of extra cards without needing mana every turn, and Sea Drake lets you bounce tapped lands and administer flying beats. Ghastly Demise should probably be replaced, what with all the black critters running around in Pikula.dec. You could potentially run Last Gasp, which is basically like a worse Incinerate. Kiku's Shadow would be good, except for the BB casting cost.

Also, has anyone considered Desperate Research? In such a redundant deck, it could basically act like a Demonic Tutor.

[Brushwagg]

Currently I'm testing out a couple of cards.

Circu:I've been having some pretty good results, although my testing is limited right now. Yes it doesn't come down until turn 4, but with all the cheap Blue spells he's like pretty good.

@Beater Slot:Yes as I pointed out in my first post, this is a weak point in the deck right now. Possed Aven sucks, but I really haven't found an option I like. Sea Drake would be awesome, if they weren't so damn hard to find.

@Winter Orb:This is on the list to be tested. Every Gro deck could run this easily since the mana curve is so low.

@Mox Dimond:It would be nice, but with so few lands it probably would end up a dead draw more then it would help.

[DeathByDreams]

Has anyone actually tested Confidant at this point or is everything theoretical? Hitting a FoW does seem like it would suck however it would be interesting to find out how well it compares to the /r and /w versions. The card advantage might outweigh the 5 life loss to the random FoW draw.


disclaimer: I would test this myself, however I'm waiting on a collection so I can actually make decks rather than just theorizing about them. Sorry if it seems rude to just shove the testing on other people.

[DampingEngine]

I've played with the Confidant quite a bit, including many games in a deck that ran Nekrataal. Revealing a Nekrataal isn't ideal, but most of the time I was happy just to get it and it won the game for me. Revealing a Force of Will is much worse of course because it doesn't effect the immediate state of the game, doesn't do damage or clear blockers (quite the opposite), and of course your opponent knows you're holding a counter. I'm also a little worried that this deck will have the same problem the original Deadguy Ale list had. It doesn't put on enough pressure/do enough damage to minimize the life loss. Confidant is gold in a deck that runs 20+ creatures even if it has no life gain because you'll swarm your opponent long before Confidant can kill you. If it wasn't for the massive amount of damage Nantuko Shade can deal, I don't think Deadguy Ale would've been viable with 11 creatures, and after I played the deck the way it was, the first thing I did was up the creature count to 15. On the other hand, the deck runs Brainstorm and Serum Visions, but on the other other hand, it runs Night's Whisper. There's also the factor that this deck draws tons of cards so it would see more of its threats that a non blue deck with Confidant.

[Sexy_Rector]

You got black, you got blue, so why not run Dr. Teeth himself. He only costs three, and with all the card advantage genereated by this deck, he can easily win the game for you quickly. He does not really have synergy with the other threshold creatures but as a two of [ just like the enforcer or the dragon ] he can end the game in one swing.

Also, what about mental note? Has great synergy with ghastly demise, threshold creatures, and psycatog.

[Brushwagg]

@Tog:If he was added then I would just play GAT. Tog really takes the deck in a different direction. You would have to retool the draw engine ALOT. I've tried to support Tog with the Gro engine, while it does work, it just doesn't get enough cards in hand and graveyard fast enough. The whole purpose here is I want to see if a Black splash in Gro is viable.

Which brings me to Zilla's question:"Why add Black?" I've thought long and hard about this, and came to a conclusions. 1. I like to be different, and try new things. As far as match-ups go, I'm still testing (when I can) so I'll have to get back to you on that.

[umbowta]

Sea Drake would be awesome, if they weren't so damn hard to find.
I found a bunch of Sea Drakes at $2.00 each in a very peculiar place (http://www.yugiohhaus.com/cgi-local/shop3.pl/SID=6445804793163643062) if anyone is interested (just type in Sea Drake on the search bar of their homepage). No, I don't fuckin play yugioh, it just came up on the third or fourth page of a google search.

My question is, how awesome would drake actually be? I mean, at 3 toughness, it seems to be pretty fragile. I'm actually considering the vampire from Ravnica, Moroii.

Moroii 2UB

Creature Vampire
uncommon

Flying At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life.

Dan Scott Ravnica: City of Guilds
4 / 4

A 4cc vampire that beats for 4 and doesn't die to every kind of lightning seems kind of nice. The fact that Moroii doesn't depend on threshold to beat is icing on the cake really. Obviously, grave hate is going to come into the picture soon, if you havn't seen it already. I don't like having all of the threats in the deck neutered by a Crypt/Furnace. Sea Drake, Serindib Efreet, and Moroii seem to be decent options.

Why play black in UGx? I really havn't come to the conclusion to play black. Why I'm working on UGb comes down to what I dont like about white and red. StP is good removal but I don't like giving my opponent extra life. Running red takes care of that problem but Dragon costs RR2. A casting cost which requires double of the splash color when the mana base is already shaky seems shitty. Yes, red can run Drake and Dib too but it can't run e-plague. We all know that Vial gobbo's can recover from wrath effects, like pyroclasm, more easily than it can work around plague.

So it seems that most of the x in UGx argument comes from the "big beater" slot. In my experience so far with the deck, the games are often won by goose and werebear alone. Side by side, those guys are swingin for 7. There have been many games when I'll just hold the Enforcer/Dragon/Dib in hand while goose and/or bear swing for the win. How well you control the early game is more important than which finisher you choose.

[BryanReilly]

have you guys tried skittering horror
Card : Skittering Horror
Cost : 2B
Type : Summon Creature - Horror
Power : 4/3
Wording : When you play a creature spell, sacrifice Skittering Horror.
Edition : UD - Urza's Destiny
Rarity : Common
Colour : Black
Mana : 3

[Nightmare]

Possible beatsticks (I'm not sure how high up evasion ranks on your list, so here goes):

Juzam Djinn
Razorjaw Oni (4/5, 3B cc, Black creatures can't block)
Grinning Demon
Spiritmonger (a bit outside the curve, but a house)
If you're playing EExplosives, you could run Hunted Horror

[Watcher487]

How well you control the early game is more important than which finisher you choose.
QF'F'T

This deck no matter what splash, has to control the early game. Werebear, Meddling Mage, Mongoose or whatever is played early should win you the game with your removal/counter magic backing it up.

The main reason why you should have a big beater(flyer), is if the ground is cluttered(ie Trolls & Walls).

What about just 'switching' over to a more controlish version? Run 6-8 creatures with a recur engine (Genesis? or Stronghold? / Life from the Loam?? Living Wish?) and a butt load of removal and counters (Deed and maybe Witness).

Now talking about this makes it feel more like a heavier blue version of 'the game', but it might just be the best way to go for the color set up.

[Finn]

Heh, you gotta love the Juzam Dinn recommendation. I know you were only mentioning it for the sake of completeness, but Brushwagg is concerned about finding the $2.00 Sea Drakes. How is anyone going to acquire Juzam? It brought quite a smile to my face.

I am thinking Iwamori of the Open Fist. Recoil is good too.

[umbowta]

What about just 'switching' over to a more controlish version? Run 6-8 creatures with a recur engine (Genesis? or Stronghold? / Life from the Loam?? Living Wish?) and a butt load of removal and counters (Deed and maybe Witness). I have been thinking about this alot lately. Life from the Loam seems so good and looks really sexy with cantrips like Mental note and even Careful Study. Draw two for one blue, dump two lands, get em back with Life f.t. Loam. You can hit threshold on turn two by going Careful Study(dump Loam and whatever else) Dredge loam up on your draw phase, Mental Note, and still have a land open for dropping a goose. ...time for dinner now....later.

[Brushwagg]

@Moroii:I too have considered this the most. I like the fact that it's a 4/4.
I have not tested yet but will, considering that lately, at least on MWS, everyone is playing some form of Gro and most are mding Furnace.


So it seems that most of the x in UGx argument comes from the "big beater" slot. In my experience so far with the deck, the games are often won by goose and werebear alone. Side by side, those guys are swingin for 7.

I've noticed this too.

@Finn about Drakes:Have you looked on E-Bay ??? There's one listing for them in England. Also I'm not going to send some money to a Yu-Gi-HO website. After doing some thinking I don't think they will be that hot.

[Citrus-God]

I think it's just me who MDs them. I mean, I'm not sure if anyone else would do that unless their meta is infested with Gro or they stole that tech from me on MWS (I doubt it).

I'm curious about the other forms.

I've been toying around with this deck and I found this...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
3 Circu, Dimir Labotomist


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
2 Predict
4 Phyrexian Furnace
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise/Vendetta


// Sideboard 15
3 Compost
4 Engineered Plague
3 Stifle
3 Naturalize
2 Open Slots


Yes, it looks very random, I know. Bob made up for the Card Disadvantage and Furnace tries and stop the mirror from beating me up.

MDed Duress seems like crap, but it does wonders killing off Control decks.

So umm... that tends to be it. I'm going to keep playing this deck, and I'll post more random info on the deck...

[Citrus-God]

I know this will sound pointless, but have you guys thought of Krosan Beast for yout beater?

I got beaten by UGr Gro which packed that and Fledgeling Dragon.

[Brushwagg]

I think I found a reasonable canidate for the removale slot.

Rend Flesh from COK
CC:2B
Destroy target non-spirit creature.

I tried thinking of how many spirits that are actually used in Legacy, and I could really only thing of Tradewind. I like the fact that it can kill any other creture regaurdless of color. While I do like Putrefy, I don't like the casting cost of 1GB for this deck.

@Anti:Your not the only person I played on MWS that has main decked Furnace. That card is a real pain. Also the one big problem I have with your list is a lack of card drawing outside of Confidant. I haven't tested your list, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but how well can your list abuse Circu, without the cheap draw?

[Citrus-God]

Confidant made Circu extremely rediculous. It was like 2 cards per turn. It really did make this deck look like Gro without the Quirion Dyrad. Other than that, everytime when I got Bob removed, I screwed myself over.

Card draw is quite low, I don't think I wanna abuse Bob that much at the moment.

I changed the decklist. I tookout Furnaces, and some more random stuff to make it so Circu can be abuse even more. I'm starting to play this more than the standard lists.


Heres what I have so far...


// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Circu, Dimir Lobomist


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Duress


// Sideboard 15
1 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Stifle
3 Naturalize

[Ridiculous Hat]

How well you control the early game is more important than which finisher you choose.
If this is the case, your argument for why you don't like swords makes no sense. If the mid/late-game is irrelevant (which I'm not saying it is) then why play inferior removal spells when you can cut the late-game shorter by just playing better guys and getting their faster thanks to better removal?

[Brushwagg]

@Anti:I'm really interested in how your testing goes, the list looks good. The lists on page one are just there as examples. The more people try new lists the better.

[umbowta]

Quote (umbowta @ Dec. 15 2005,12:20)
How well you control the early game is more important than which finisher you choose.

If this is the case, your argument for why you don't like swords makes no sense. If the mid/late-game is irrelevant (which I'm not saying it is) then why play inferior removal spells when you can cut the late-game shorter by just playing better guys and getting their faster thanks to better removal? What I'm saying about StP is that it can extend the game by adding to the opponents life total at inopportune moments. To me, it makes sense that Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice, as well as Diabolic Edict and Ghastly Demise can remove the vast majority of early game threats that happen to resolve through the counterwall...without adding to the opponents life total and giving them more topdecks to find an answer. Meanwhile, the relavancy of the mid to late game was never in question. The relative importance to the early game VS the mid/late was, in fact, what my statement was aimed at.

[Brushwagg]

I got some good news I made top 4 today in teams with my build. There where 11 teams and quite a varied meta. My partner was playing UGR Gro. I must say Rend Flesh and Moroii were hot. Over all I was pleased with how my deck ran.

Here's what I'm running:

Draw
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x A.K.
4x Night's Whisper

Counter/Removale
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x Daze
3x Counterspell
4x Ghastly Demise (everyone happy now ??? )

Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Moroii

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard
2x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Duress
3x Naturalize
3x Chill
4x Engineered Plague

Of course if I had knowen ahead of time I would have taken Chill out of the board (for today), but oh well everything worked out in the end.

[umbowta]

Counter/Removale
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x Daze
1x Counterspell
4x Rend Flesh
Edited to make the decklist 60 cards and because you mentioned Rend Flesh was 'hot' so I figured it was the missing 4 of.

18 draw spells? While only running 8 counters and 3 stifles? I am confused. Also, Rend Flesh? Hot? Probably because your partner picked up the slack with Lightning Bolts and Fire/Ice.

[Brushwagg]

Counter/Removale
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x Daze
1x Counterspell
4x Rend Flesh
Edited to make the decklist 60 cards and because you mentioned Rend Flesh was 'hot' so I figured it was the missing 4 of.

18 draw spells? While only running 8 counters and 3 stifles? I am confused. Also, Rend Flesh? Hot? Probably because your partner picked up the slack with Lightning Bolts and Fire/Ice.
I edited my list.
While my partner did help with burn to the nugget, if we were both playing with Red we would'nt have made top 4. Rend Flesh was able to take down bigger stuff, and cretures with pro Red that the burn wouldn't have been able to deal with. Also Rend Flesh won at least 3 games for us. I know alot of people are like WTF ??? but so far I like it.

As far as the low Counterspell count I'm probably going to cut the Predicts for 2 more Counters.

[Citrus-God]

I got some good news I made top 4 today in teams with my build. There where 11 teams and quite a varied meta. My partner was playing UGR Gro. I must say Rend Flesh and Moroii were hot. Over all I was pleased with how my deck ran.

Here's what I'm running:

Draw
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x A.K.
4x Night's Whisper
2x Predict <----Thinking about replacing with Smother or Counterspell

Counter/Removale
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x Daze
1x Counterspell
4x Rend Flesh

Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Moroii

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard
2x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Duress
3x Naturalize
3x Chill
4x Engineered Plague

Of course if I had knowen ahead of time I would have taken Chill out of the board (for today), but oh well everything worked out in the end.
The list looks hot. So how has AK been doing for you? I never really actually get around to use it because of all those MDed Furnaces in my meta...

I thinik I might try consider running Rend Flesh. It looks slow, but realt uesful.
Speaking of removal, have you tried Vendetta? If black creatures arent around, it seems like a decent piece of targeted removal.

[umbowta]

Rend Flesh was able to take down bigger stuff, and cretures with pro Red that the burn wouldn't have been able to deal with.I understand that, but I'm saying Rend was only good becauseyour partner was taking down the little shit with burn and thereby making your Rends actually useful when bigger critters hit. Rend Flesh is too slow and clunky to be considered for this deck in a one on one, competitive envioronment.

[Brushwagg]

I'm using Rend instead of other targeted removale because of all the Black in my meta. I still think it needs more testing, I know it's not the greatest but it is very useful. With all the counters in the deck I just counter smaller threats, and Rend takes care of the bigger stuff. I would love to use Vendetta or Ghastly Demise, but there is too much Black in my meta. So I guess I'm saying it's a meta call. If it doesn't fit where you play then don't use it. As far as the CC, it is a little slow, but once you reach turn 3-4(if you Daze) I find it nice knowing that I don't have to waste a counter on a problematic creature.

@Anti:A.K. has been working really well. Not to much Md Grave hate here. If you face alot of Furnaces I would probably go with Predict. Since you do have Night's Whisper already which is the real work horse for card advantage for any build splashing Black.

Edit:Changed my list a little
cut 2x Predict
added 2x Counterspell

[Citrus-God]

Night's Whisper it is. I really need that Card Advantage here. Synthetic card advantage like Serum Visions has been pissing off lately. Night's Whisper can clear a lot of that up.

Thanks.

[umbowta]

All right guys, here is the list I've been running.
Draw
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
3x Mental Note
1x Predict

Control
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
3x Counterspell
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Chainers Edict...thinking I might try G. demise here
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Pithing Needle

Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Dark Confidant

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp


Sideboard
2x Wasteland
2x Life from the Loam
4x Engineered Plague
1x Needle
3x Chill
3x Beb

I don't worry about the Goblins matchup at all. If I happen to lose game one to the god draw, games 2 and 3 are still almost a bye. In the mirror, Edicts have no trouble taking down untargetables...duh. Against Deadguy Ale, I can usually put up a real good fight. I need to test this matchup more because there are two guys playing the deck in my area, but so far I'm feeling good enough about it. The loams in the board make me feel even better about it. Oh yeah, scepter with D-edict on it is dead sexy.


Synthetic card advantage like Serum Visions has been pissing off lately. Night's Whisper can clear a lot of that up.
I disagree, especially while I'm running Bob. I want to be able to do the best I can to avoid ripping a FoW with bob. Losing 5 life in one shot can cost you the game. I also want threshold sooner rather than later.

[Brushwagg]

@Umbowta:Looks good. The only card I really don't like in your list is Mental Note. I'm not a hugh fan of this card, just because I always seem to get screwed by it. Might not happen as much in Gro, but the possiblity is there. But if it's working for you I say use it. Also how is Scepter working out for you? Helping alot or sometimes? Just want to know. One other thing I really don't like that lack of a beater in the air. Do you find that it isn't needed?

@Anti:I'm hoping that you aren't planning on cutting Serum Visions from the deck. It is to invaluable. Though a possible replacement is Portent from Ice Age. It pretty much does the same thing as SV, but you can look at your opponent's library if you want.

You also mentioned that your facing alot of Furnaces main deck in your meta, so I would probably start MDing Pithing Needle. I would be Mding them, but I have only one right now :(.

Here is a card drawing setup I would try.
4x Serum Visions/Portent
4x Brainstorm
4x Night's Whisper
4x Predict
That should give the cards you need without using the the Graveyard ie: A.K. I'm sorry if that seems like a "No Shit" but your post there seems like your planning on cutting Serum Visions, which I feel you shouldn't especially since you run Bob.

P.S. I really do need to pick up some Confidants, because they are really good. So if you have some I'm always open for donations :;):

[umbowta]

Brushwagg, I didn't like the theory of Mental Note, but, once I tried it, I cant deny it. I really don't understand how you are getting screwed by it. Are you bothered by which cards happen to be dumped into the grave? If so, you need to realize that the benfits of earlier threshold outweigh the negatives of a couple of random cards in the grave.
The lack of a flying beater hasn't reared it ugly head..yet. So far I'm able to control the game well enough to win with undercosted ground pounders.
The Isochron Scepters are admittedly a recent addition. I cut one Mental Note and one Predict to fit them in. So far I really like them but I'm not convinced that they will stay. If they do stay I will probably change Chainers Edict to Ghastly Demise...hell I might do that anyway.

[Brushwagg]

Just to clarify on what I meant about Mental Note was, that most times I ended up needing that random card in other decks. While I haven't tested it at all in this deck, again I'm not a huge fan of it. Also I really don't have that hard a time getting Theshold. Yes some games it's takes a little longer, but the control keeps you in the game.

One card though that is convincing me, is Dark Confidant. Not as a 4x but probably a 2x will feel right. Testing should reveal the correct number. Because while they are good you almost never want 2 in play at the same time.

[Citrus-God]

ehh... Night's Whisper was way to situational for me while I had a Bob active, so I cut them and went for the dreaded Predict method. It's still quite good, but I have 3 slots left. What do you think I should do with those 3 slots?

[umbowta]

What do you think I should do with those 3 slots?Insert something, preferably lubricated, thrust, retract, repeat until satisfied. You lucky sonuvabitch...my wife is the only slot I get to mess with.

All perversion aside, Night's Whisper is not "situational"...it's just not as necessary when you've got Bob. As far as what to put in those slots goes, Anti~American, it depends completely on the rest of your list. I guess you could post your list, or just glance at Brushwagg's list and/or mine and/or overlord95's.

[Brushwagg]

Night's Whisper is not "situational"...it's just not as necessary when you've got Bob.

I have to agree here. Predict is the situational card. Don't get me wrong though you can run Predict just fine, but it won't always draw you 2 without some sort of setup.

Also sometimes you have to get a feel for where you are at in the game. If your playing burn then you really you don't want to be casting to many Night's Whisper, or playing Bob in the first place.

When I'm playing Burn/UGR etc.. I sideboard like this.
-2 Bob
-1 Night's Whisper
+3 Chill

Pre-Board you need to get a feel as to where your at in the game.

Another solid option aganist Burn/mirror is Mystic Remora. Don't let the upkeep scare you. You should draw at least 2-3 cards, or slow your opponent down.

[martyr]

Whoever is considering playing with Rend Flesh, please play with Putrefy.

[Brushwagg]

Whoever is considering playing with Rend Flesh, please play with Putrefy

I never said Renf Flesh was awesome, but it only takes 1 colored mana. The reason I'm kinda staying away from Puterfy is the GB in the casting cost.
Ideally I would love to play Ghastly Demise, but my meta is filled with Mono-Black. So once they go away I'll put Demise back in.

[Obfuscate Freely]

3cc removal is really bad. Run Smother or Last Gasp instead.

Putrefy is a hell of a lot better than Rend Flesh, though, green mana requirements and all.

[Brushwagg]

I will be testing Putrefy, while I will agree is better then Rend Flesh, the 2 different color CC might present a problem in this deck. Smother is also another option I've been considering. I was looking for something that would kill almost any creature no matter what color it was.

[umbowta]

3cc removal is really bad. Run Smother or Last Gasp instead.

I feel like a fucking dumbass for forgetting about Smother. Duh! I still like Diabolic Edict but I'll probably be switching my removal to 3 edict and 3 smother. Thanks for the suggestion, Obfuscate Freely.

[Brushwagg]

Yes Smother can be hot at times. But I think you also need something to go along with it. Diabolic Edict, Demise, etc...

@Umbowta:Have you had a chance to test out those Isochron Scepters? If so how have they been working out?

[umbowta]

I played last night...but...I played UGr instead of UGb. So, no I haven't gotten any play in w/scepters since last time. I really need to go ahead and download MWS so I can play more often.

[overlord95]

Well I've been fiddeling with the deck alot lately to try and brake Dark Confidant. Heres my newest list.
TOF2K6(The Other Flavor) By Scott Scheurer:
Creatures:
4x Werebear
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Dark Confidant

Instants:
4x Ghaslty Demise
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
1-2x Counterspell(I've been going back and forth between Cspell #2 and a single Fact or Fiction im still undecided)

Sorceries:
4x Serum Visions
4x Portent

Artifacts:
3x Pithing Needle/Stifle(This is a meta call)

Lands:
1x Swamp
3x Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

New card explanations
@Dark Confidant: With 12 stacking effects life loss really isnt a issue. Out of 20 games I flipped over a FoW once. On an additonal note the decks curve is 1-2 which means at worsed your going to shock yourself with DC.
@Portent: Its and additional stacking effect for DC that looks 3 down to ensure the 2nd turn land drop. The fact that its a slowtrip really hasnt been an issue as of yet but more testing will prove it's worth.
@Pithing Needle: Im pretty sure it's applications in the deck are self explanitory.
@Predict: With 12 stacking effects in the deck now 90% of the time your going to know the top card of your library. And drawing 2 cards for 2 mana at instant speed I here is good.

Cards not in the deck anymore
Engineered Explosives: With the addition of more permanets to the deck all of which being on the lower end of the casting cost spectrum alot of the time its going to hurt you as much as your opponet.
Stilfe: This is a meta call I made for NOVA.
Possessed Aven: He was just to costly with the new build. Plus I wanted to keep the curve as low as possible. If I was going to add some flying fat to the deck thou it would probably be Sea Drake.
Night's Whisper: I initially tried whisper and DC in the deck together put the life loss just compounded to quickly.
Accumclated Knowledge: This spot im still debating on so im not sure yet.

Hopfully the new list will breath some new life into this thread.

[Brushwagg]

I really like that list alot. With all the Holiday stuff and running to total morons on MWS, I haven't had really any chance to play :( .

@The fat slot:I've been liking Moroii there. Pitchable to FOW, and doesn't need Threshold.

@DC:The more I play the deck with it in there the more I like it. Free card draw is always good. Plus the fact, as Overlord said, the curve is low. I don't think I've flipped a FOW yet.

@Night's Whisper:I'm not sure about cutting it. I like to able to draw 2 cards with no set up. I understand that DC and Whispers can compound fast, but I haven't had any real problems yet.

@AK:I've kept them just because of Whispers. While AK isn't that great at first they get better later in the game and Whispers provides the early draw. If I was going to cut Whispers then I would probably cut AK also.

[Evil Roopey]

I really don't knwo which thread this list should go in, so I'm going to put it in here since it runs black.

// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Werebear

// Spells
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [7E] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Night's Whisper
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [JU] Mental Note

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 3 [9E] Naturalize
SB: 2 [JU] Phantom Centaur
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

This was built off of a skeleton that Overlord and I came up with. I'm not sure if his more recent build is better or not, but this list is damn powerful. It has the best of everything, best draw engine, best removal, best fat, best SB. I don't think you can get better than that. The only problem is the lack of basics, but it hasn't been huge problem.

Roop

[Brushwagg]

So basically that's UGW with Night's Whisper in it ??? If you really want the best draw then where is Dark Confidant? Alot of people think that because FOW is in the deck, then DC is bad. But what alot of people forget is that there is only 4, and it's very rare that you will hit one with DC.

[Evil Roopey]

I tested Confidant very little but this is the list with him in it.

// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [7E] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [9E] Naturalize
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 2 SECRET TECH!

I think that that list will prove a lot stronger then the last. I like the way it looks a lot.

Roop

[Brushwagg]

Well I made top 8 today (3-2) with the list below. I lost in top 8 to Garv, playing Garv.dec (which is a real bad match for Gro.) 17 person tourny with a varied meta.

As far as Ghastly Demise, it was pretty good until I played Mono-Black. As far as Mental Note, I'm not totally liking it.

// Lands
1 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest <---might become Bayou. (Garv suggestion)

// Creatures
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Moroii
2 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Serum Visions
4 Night's Whisper
2 Stifle
4 Mental Note <---Might go back to A.K.
4 Ghastly Demise <--- Smother/Puterfy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

So I'm still testing better removal, and Mental Note.

[Bryant Cook]

Where are the darkblast? They kill almost everything in the format that gastly demise doesn't.

[Brushwagg]

Where are the darkblast? They kill almost everything in the format that gastly demise doesn't.

Not Quite. Darkblast wouldn't have helped in my match with Doug. All of his creatures were 3/4, 4/4, and 5/5. Bad times were had in that match.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Possessed Aven is better than Moroii. The -1/-1 from Tormod's Crypt is less worrisome than Moroii's lifeloss (especially with Confidant and Whisper in the deck) and more difficult casting cost, and Aven even has an ability that can randomly win games ("Pop goes the Psychatog," etc.).

As far as the removal problem, I'm afraid the answer might be to just not run the black version of Gro in a metagame with black decks. If there aren't many weenie decks you might be able to get away with Edict, but that seems fairly bad.

[Brushwagg]

@Aven vs. Moroii: I think both you can really use either if you want. I haven't had any problems with too much life lose because of DC and Moroii on the table at the same time. Most of the time it means I'm winning. But the aven does have the kill a blues creature. So I guess it really means what one you want to use.

[Lego]

I agree that Aven is just better than Moroii. You couldn't pay me to play Moroii if I had Avens waiting in the wings (i.e. with me) (that's not really true, it depends how much you paid me).

I think now is probably the time to experiment with the Red and White splashes, seeing as we get The Izzet (and less so Gruul) in the next set to possible add to the Red splash, and then the Azorius Senate after that for the White splash. Seems fun to me :) And hey, can't go wrong with the Simic. I'd be happy if we got one playable card out of each guild. Okay, that's probably asking way too much. How about just one playable card all together? :)

[Bryant Cook]

So Brushwagg whats your current list look like?

[Citrus-God]

Me and my friend are still tinkering the deck, and we concluded that our new list will be something we have against the Gro mirror. Mental Notes suck. In this deck I threw away every piece/tool I needed against against my opponent.


// Mana 18
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp


// Creatures 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
2 Moroii


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Night's Whisper
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell


// Sideboard 15
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Winter Orb
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Naturalize
3 Duress


Yes, I'm using the biggest piece of trash ever. We call that trash Pernicious Deed. Winter Orb is a decent Tempo tool against Control decks, like Landstill and crap.

[Brushwagg]

So Brushwagg whats your current list look like?

Pretty much the same as above. I'll admit I really haven't done too much with the deck as of late. Still working on the removale slot. I may bust it out for Sunday, but I'm not sure yet.

@Anti-American:I think you might be onto something there. The only thing I don't like about your list the 4x Confidant. Yes he is amazing at drawing, but I feel 4 is too many. I really never want more than 1 in play at a time, unless it is a last resort.

Also Deed trash ???????? That's news to me. I can see it fitting in the deck to take down W or R Gro also it's pretty good for Goblins too.

As far WInter Orb. I really never liked it for this deck. Maybe it's just me but WO never really helped me. I want to be casting creatures and smashing face.

[Citrus-God]

@Anti-American:I think you might be onto something there. The only thing I don't like about your list the 4x Confidant. Yes he is amazing at drawing, but I feel 4 is too many. I really never want more than 1 in play at a time, unless it is a last resort.

Also Deed trash ???????? That's news to me. I can see it fitting in the deck to take down W or R Gro also it's pretty good for Goblins too.

As far WInter Orb. I really never liked it for this deck. Maybe it's just me but WO never really helped me. I want to be casting creatures and smashing face.

I usually end up playing Orb when I have like a couple beaters in play, just to put my opponent in a soft tempo lock.

Yeah... err... versus W Gro that's like the first thing they call when play Pikula. I was playing Smothers at the time so I blew it up. Thing I have with Confidants is like this. I wanna draw these guys, everytime I get this guy into play he gets blown up.

I guess I could get rid of 1 Confidant and 1 whisper for more Deeds.

// Mana 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island


// Creatures 13
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
2 Moroii


// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell


// Sideboard 15
2 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle/ or a 3rd Orb
2 Winter Orb
2 Naturalize
1 Dark Confidant

[Brushwagg]

@Anti:I would like to hear how well your testing goes.

Here's a current list (probably should wait till after Sunday. But oh well)

// Lands
1 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Possessed Aven/Moroii
2 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Serum Visions
4 Night's Whisper
4 Mental Note
4 Puterfy
1 Dark Blast

SB
15 Secrets

Not too many changes, since I like how it runs. I'm going to try out Puterfy see how I like it. Dark Blast is just in for testing. It does kill first turn Lackey. So I'll see how it goes.

[Citrus-God]

I see Lost Hope as a very nice Cantrip in here. Even though a 1st Turn Lackey looks scary, I guess a 1st Turn Goose should be good enough.

[Brushwagg]

Well just to give a quick update, I went 4-0 in swiss rounds, top 4 split, today with the build above. I beat out ATS, U/R/B Welder?, NQG/W, and Goblins? I was really happy with how Puterfy worked.

As far as my SB:
3x Engineered Plague
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Duress <---might be taken out for something else.
2x Stifle
2x Furnace
1x Gloom Drifter <--never used
1x Withered Wretch <--Sided in really never saw play

I totally forgot to put Naturalize in (oops). I didn't really need it except one game, but oh well I won the match.

I do have two questions: How many top 4 and 8's will it take to get this deck moved to Open??

[Citrus-God]

You suck, I keep getting consistent 3 to 1's. I beat Goblins, Goblins, UGr Thresh, and lost against Burning Tog, with like 4 Perishes and 4 Chalices in the board.

[Brushwagg]

Not really, But I do think everyone who plays this deck should post results. Every week I've played it, except 1 in teams, I've made at least top 8. I really think this is a good deck and can hang with NQG/W or /R. So again it brings me to my question: How many Top 8 and/or 4s does it ake to at least get this moved to Open?

[umbowta]

I think the reason this isn't in open is beacause it is still developing. The removal, draw, and creature regiment is not agreed to yet.

[Citrus-God]

I think the reason this isn't in open is beacause it is still developing. The removal, draw, and creature regiment is not agreed to yet.
I guess his right. There's really no optimal build for DarkGro yet. My list and Brushy's are very different play play very differently. Like Angel Stax, the new list changed, but game play is entirely different.

[Brushwagg]

I'm not asking for the LMF. To get moved to Open it just needs to be competitive and I think it is, and it's showing it is. I know full well that this thread will probably never make LMF, just because alot of people don't like to try new/different things. As far as one list? Go look at the other Gro thread, while the core of alot of list are the same I see alot of different lists being posted, so I don't think there is one list for everybody, and never will be.

@Umbowta:I think we are closer then you think. 4xGoose, and Bear,and at least 2x DC. Draw again DC, Night's Whisper, and the standard fair of Serum Visions Brainstorm etc... As far as removal, I'll give you that.

[Zilla]

It's not worth discussing it here. Let the mods make the call and carry on developing the deck in the meanwhile.

[Brushwagg]

It's not worth discussing it here. Let the mods make the call and carry on developing the deck in the meanwhile.

Will do.

@Anti:I've been doing some thinking, and is Deed really needed in the main? I can see it being a really good SB option for Goblins and possibly the mirror, but it does seem kind of counter-productive. With all the low CCs in the deck it's kind of hard to blow Deed without wiping your side too. Give Puterfy a shot in the Deed slot and see how it goes.

[Citrus-God]

A Couple can actually do a lot in the Sideboard. Sure, I've also increased the number of Counterspells for more Tempo action.

My friend was playing today and got 2 to 2.

He played against Aluren (Canali version), and lost to it. He also lost against something I don't remember, and won only against monowhite Angel Stompy and Burn. I guess he piloted the deck fairly well, but those games actually did make me want to change it a little.


// Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 13
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Moroii


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict/Putrefy
2 Putrefy


// Sideboard 15
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Naturalize
3 Pithing Needle
4 Duress

That seems good...

[Bane of the Living]

Ok I've been playing the list online 5 games. I like the way it plays and I would actually like to up the confidants to 3 or so. But then I played 5 more games with Darkblast in the deck. I was very impressed. Against the mirror it kills early mongoose and bear and builds thresh. Against gobs its always a kill card since you have so much card draw to get it back for a second go. dont let ringleader resolve and your solid. I really think Darkblast need another look. You only breifly discussed it anyways.

[calosso]

Ok I've been playing the list online 5 games. I like the way it plays and I would actually like to up the confidants to 3 or so. But then I played 5 more games with Darkblast in the deck. I was very impressed. Against the mirror it kills early mongoose and bear and builds thresh. Against gobs its always a kill card since you have so much card draw to get it back for a second go. dont let ringleader resolve and your solid. I really think Darkblast need another look. You only breifly discussed it anyways.

How can you kill early mongooses with darkblast?

[Brushwagg]

@Anti:I don't like the lack of Night's Whisper. The engine that I play provides tempo, card advantage, and is re-usable(DarkConfidant). I think your list could cut 1 Daze, and maybe 1 Counterspell.

@Bane:I think 2 is good. I mean you really don't want more then 1 on the board at once. Also there is the life loss, with the Whispers, and Fetchs. However I can see upping to 3 (cutting???) if your meta is filled with Burn/creature removal, because you want 1 to stick around at least a couple of turns (which really hard).

@Darkblast:This was a last minute addition. I really didn't expect it to do to much, but it's pretty good. I don't think I would add more then 1 just because it can be dead. On the plus side it does help to get Theshold fast, and can be Dredged with almost all the card drawing except DC.

[kimberley]

How should this go to open forum?
You have tested, yes. And you have experimented with several choices, yes.
But have you outlined the strategy of the deck, the reason to play B instead of any other splash color, the decks matchups?
As far as i have studied this thread - as far as it may be considered "study-able" ...well...no - you didn't.

Their are several ways to start a new deck. You may see that NQG/x is a good thing and transfer it to Ugb by replacing white/red choices with black ones that don't suck and add new choices that are accessable to black alone.

My first problem comes with Night's Whisper.
Isn't it to some extend the point about Ugx that the cantrips are U...and do not kill you. Same goes for Confidant. All i can see there is a lousy creature that burns your ass.
In Deadguy Ale the entire deck has immense synergy with Confidant. On the one hand the deck revolves around preventing your op from being able to answer your threads, on the other hand their is the possibility to end game with some swift blows and not much defense in your way as well as the possibility to sac Confidant for something useful.

All the "big" threats suggested in this thread are pretty useless imo by not being ...well...big (apart from their CC).
Their are situations where evasion is good or necessary - but in the current metagame they are rare imo.
Why would you want to fly over Goblins with a 3 or 4 power? To see wether VialGoglins is able to outnoumber your Mongoose and Bears within 5 or 6 turns?
The reason Dragon and Enforcer are good is not that they fly but that they are huge in power and toughness and can stall pretty much most ground combats exspecially in the mirror. What are you goint to do if you meat an enforcer? Attack it with your lousy [insert choice here].

Imo the main reason to add further threats (Dragon/Enforcer) is...that 8 threats are not enough. So i am wondering why their is no plain simple argument in 8 pages of this thread telling me why exactly not to run Unearth.


Another perspective towards the construction of a new deck may be to observe the metagame and see what you can abuse within the chosen deck theme and color combination to succeed in that meta.
So let's have a look:
1. Both Plague and Darkblast can bring this deck to a matchup against Vial Goblins that may be far superior to thoose of the other splashes. Discussion about that seems rare to me in this thread. Did i miss something?
2. There is the mirror. When i look at your lists i tend to believe you are having trouble with it a lot. Especially R shuould usually just laugh about the cards you may perhabs draw with Whisper and brun your ass (as they did burn Confidants ass before). W will just wait for an occasion to force through a 3 turn clock that you simply can not handle at all with most lists discussed in this thread. So... there is Haunting Echoes. It is CC5 including BB conceded but in the mirror it just ends the game when it resolves. Your enemy will loose threshold and half of his remaining library will be utter trash - lands and the stuff they shuffeled away. I did not even find the name of the caard in this thread. Am i stupid? Can anyone tell why i should not play one or two of them in my SB?
3. You seem to worry about Deadguy Ale and Weenie stratgies a lot otherwise Deeds and EE i don't want to touch would not show up in your lists.
Is that danger so immense? NQGw i sconsidered DTB and all they have is 4 StoPs and countermagic. Why do you need all those sweepers?
And their is still Darkblast waiting to be used.

So...what i see missing in this thread is the complete lack of any reasonable explanation what the deck intends to do.
I - as an outsider - cannot see clear arguments in this thread why the choices you included are good and the ones you did not discuss are so bad so did not need to be mentioned.

So please cure my stupidicy and tell me what's the idea about all of this.

[Bane of the Living]

Heres my list.

// Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 11
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Pithing Needle
2 Putrefy
3 Darkblast


// Sideboard 15
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Engineered Plague
3 Winter Orb
2 Naturalize
1 Pithing Needle
4 Duress

I've been very very happy with Darkblast. It doesn't kill mongoose, my bad. But playing early Werebears will lose you the game against me. The gob match is great now. Darkblast actually helped make up for the lack of swords in the deck. Mental Note helps dig for them. Often times you see 2 Darkblast and your able to get them back easily to handle 2 toughness men. The lack of win conditions is my only problem. I might add Morii to the deck although I'm skeptical.

My curve..
0cc: 8
1cc: 22
2cc: 10
3cc: 2

Not too shabby. I really dont feel Night's Whisper is needed. Theres only so much card draw I want to play before the deck turns into draw-go.

[Brushwagg]

How should this go to open forum?
You have tested, yes. And you have experimented with several choices, yes.
But have you outlined the strategy of the deck, the reason to play B instead of any other splash color, the decks matchups?
As far as i have studied this thread - as far as it may be considered "study-able" ...well...no - you didn't.

Their are several ways to start a new deck. You may see that NQG/x is a good thing and transfer it to Ugb by replacing white/red choices with black ones that don't suck and add new choices that are accessable to black alone.

My first problem comes with Night's Whisper.
Isn't it to some extend the point about Ugx that the cantrips are U...and do not kill you. Same goes for Confidant. All i can see there is a lousy creature that burns your ass.
In Deadguy Ale the entire deck has immense synergy with Confidant. On the one hand the deck revolves around preventing your op from being able to answer your threads, on the other hand their is the possibility to end game with some swift blows and not much defense in your way as well as the possibility to sac Confidant for something useful.

All the "big" threats suggested in this thread are pretty useless imo by not being ...well...big (apart from their CC).
Their are situations where evasion is good or necessary - but in the current metagame they are rare imo.
Why would you want to fly over Goblins with a 3 or 4 power? To see wether VialGoglins is able to outnoumber your Mongoose and Bears within 5 or 6 turns?
The reason Dragon and Enforcer are good is not that they fly but that they are huge in power and toughness and can stall pretty much most ground combats exspecially in the mirror. What are you goint to do if you meat an enforcer? Attack it with your lousy [insert choice here].

Imo the main reason to add further threats (Dragon/Enforcer) is...that 8 threats are not enough. So i am wondering why their is no plain simple argument in 8 pages of this thread telling me why exactly not to run Unearth.


Another perspective towards the construction of a new deck may be to observe the metagame and see what you can abuse within the chosen deck theme and color combination to succeed in that meta.
So let's have a look:
1. Both Plague and Darkblast can bring this deck to a matchup against Vial Goblins that may be far superior to thoose of the other splashes. Discussion about that seems rare to me in this thread. Did i miss something?
2. There is the mirror. When i look at your lists i tend to believe you are having trouble with it a lot. Especially R shuould usually just laugh about the cards you may perhabs draw with Whisper and brun your ass (as they did burn Confidants ass before). W will just wait for an occasion to force through a 3 turn clock that you simply can not handle at all with most lists discussed in this thread. So... there is Haunting Echoes. It is CC5 including BB conceded but in the mirror it just ends the game when it resolves. Your enemy will loose threshold and half of his remaining library will be utter trash - lands and the stuff they shuffeled away. I did not even find the name of the caard in this thread. Am i stupid? Can anyone tell why i should not play one or two of them in my SB?
3. You seem to worry about Deadguy Ale and Weenie stratgies a lot otherwise Deeds and EE i don't want to touch would not show up in your lists.
Is that danger so immense? NQGw i sconsidered DTB and all they have is 4 StoPs and countermagic. Why do you need all those sweepers?
And their is still Darkblast waiting to be used.

So...what i see missing in this thread is the complete lack of any reasonable explanation what the deck intends to do.
I - as an outsider - cannot see clear arguments in this thread why the choices you included are good and the ones you did not discuss are so bad so did not need to be mentioned.

So please cure my stupidicy and tell me what's the idea about all of this.

@Night's Whisper:This is the best card draw period. No need to set up anything on top of your library at all. So what if it costs you 2 life big deal. The card advantage is well worth it. Also while I'm on the subject of card drawing DC is also really good at it. Drawing 2 plus cards a turn wins you games. As for FoW and 4cc creature there's only 6 total in the deck and the chance of hitting either with the DC is really low.

Lets answer you other questions.

1.I think you are right here. But why discuss what everyone already knows. How many times can one say Plague is there to kill goblins??
2.The draw engine usally can push you over the top in the mirror. Yes Enforcer can suck, but can have SB slots if there is alot of white Gro in you meta. Red Gro can be a pain but again can be boarded for IE CHILL. As far as Haunting Echos I've been considering it but not sure of it just because of the BB in the CC.
3.Deed only appers in some lists not all. Maybe beacuse of meta choices. You ever stop and think about that? Hell if I was facing alot of weenies every round I would probably MD Deed also. As far as Dead Guy, IT'S A BAD MATCHUP FOR ALL VERSIONS OF GRO. If you think other wise then you probably haven't face anyone good playing it.

The way most of your questions were wrote it seems like you haven't even played one game with the deck. Have you? Just because your an Adept doesn't give you the right to bash a deck without playing it first. It's like me going into The Rock thread and asking questions and aying that card choices are poor without even playing the deck first.

One thing that you did miss was how good the draw engine is. It provides tempo, card advantage, and is re-usable(DC). Also I have been putting up several top 8s with the deck and Open is for decks that prove them selves in a varied meta, which Syracuse is.

So until you actually pick the deck up, and play it a while STFU.

@Bane:I moved toward Possessed Aven. It doesn't cost you that one life and gets a nifty Theshold ability. I would probably give it a try.

[Bane of the Living]

I just added him actually :)

It was cool to play with vampires I must say, but aven is more practical. I wish I had room for the Nights Whispers honestly. Maybe I'll take out the Putrefy's. Theyre good but slow.

[Lukas Preuss]

...As for FoW and 4cc creature there's only 6 total in the deck and the chance of hitting either with the DC is really low...

Well, the chance of drawing one of these is 1/10, since your deck runs 60 cards. When playing this for several rounds at a tournament, you will most likely draw at least one of these spells via Dark Confidant. If this happens against something like Burn, you won't be able to recover from it soon enough, and you will just lose.


So, yeah, the life loss might be an issue to this deck...

[tivadar]

@Brushwagg: I happen to agree with Kimberley. I'm not saying the deck is bad, just that I didn't see much of the obvious argument that should be here: What makes the black splash better than red or white? That should be on the initial post, it's not our job to play the deck if there's not going to be a good reason to try when we have something that already works, and this deck is currently unproven.

At the same time, I'm not trying to say this deck couldn't be good. It seems to me the first argument that should be made is not for the removal, but for Confidant > Enforcer/Dragon (who needs big creatures when you've got tons of cards), Night's Whisper > Predict (this one's obvious), and that your removal doesn't suffer from moving away from white/red (lightning bolt, swords to plowshares).

Lastly, forget the serendib/aven/whatever, you've got a bigger problem with the amount of removal you run. In goblin tech, darkblast will be fine, but once you're out of there, 3x putrefy is just not going to cut it. You can't counter everything, and once a threat gets on the table, you really don't have a big enough creature to deal with it. I run Angel Stompy, and Exalted angel comes to mind, or anything equipped really.

Also, along with this, obviously, as Godzilla said, what matchups does this improve?

[Bane of the Living]

@tivadar
Well I like to play the black version of grow because it's different. I dont like to be a dick and play the same deck everyone else is playing.

Aside from that the deck does have strengths and weaknesses different from the other grow builds. I play Darkblast, which helps out bigtime against random aggro and goblins. It's also another amazing card to build thresh, making Tormods Crypts very irrelevant. You do have engineered plague in the board which has been mentioned serveral times altho everyone seems to forget when they ask, "Why would I play black? durrrrr."

You do have Dark Confidant, who is a constant card drawing machine. W or R thresh doesnt have him. They rely on their 1 mana blue spells, which I'd like to add suck ass when a Chalice is in play. Confidant helps dig you out of that hole.

@Lukas
Your not taking the library manipulation into account here. I think I've hit a Force 2 in 20 games and a Morii/Aven 1 time.

You also have Deed if you should chose to play it. There isnt a black version set in stone because there are so many great card choices that black gives the archetype. Darkblast, Deed, Putrefy, Nights Whisper, Engineered Plague, Plague Spitter, Edict.

I think it's time to focus on 2 good builds. The aggo/control, and the control/aggro. With that proposal I'd like to add endorsement to move the deck to OPEN.

[umbowta]

Why would you want to fly over Goblins with a 3 or 4 power? To see wether VialGoglins is able to outnoumber your Mongoose and Bears within 5 or 6 turns?Vial Goblins is completely pwned by 4 e-plagues post board...and by its own inabilty to do anything relevant, fast enough, without a broken, luck sack lackey start. Fuck that match up. I'm not saying its a bye, but it does not make me worry. I usually smile when I see gobbos on the other side of the table.



So...what i see missing in this thread is the complete lack of any reasonable explanation what the deck intends to do.
I - as an outsider - cannot see clear arguments in this thread why the choices you included are good and the ones you did not discuss are so bad so did not need to be mentioned.

So please cure my stupidicy and tell me what's the idea about all of this. The deck is UGb gro. It intends to do the same thing UGr and UGw do...control the early game and win between turn 6-8. The choices that are currently being included are choices made for testing and development. Therefore, the merit of those choices is being debated, not set in stone.


What makes the black splash better than red or white? That should be on the initial post, it's not our job to play the deck if there's not going to be a good reason to try when we have something that already works, and this deck is currently unproven.Thats fine. Go ahead and play the same fuckin deck for the rest of your life for all I care. I'm not going to tell you why the black splash is better than the Red or White. For fucks sake, go look at the UGx thread in the LMF. They/we can't even decide whether red or white is better...let alone black. Play it because its different. Play it because it totally fucking owns gobbos post board. Play it because you want to see how well Edict works at taking down Nimble Mongoose or Troll fucking Asetic. Play it because you want to take down a Meddling Mage with a Possesed Aven. Play it because you like U/B in any of its various incarnations. The deck is really good. No one ever claimed it was a DTB, but it is very strong and deserves an eventual move to Open.


Brushwagg, since you are the topics starter, please, update the initial post to address some of these concerns. The link to the NQG thread is wasted and needs to be fixed...or just write up an original primer.

[Brushwagg]

@Umbowta:Everything you just said QFFT! I can start a rewrite on the original post, but it might take a day or two to get it on. I will probably include my newest list, Bane's and Anti's lists in the original.

[umbowta]

Take two days if you want to. Spell check it twice though...you don't want P.R. cramming a dictionary up your arse for screwing up a deck primer. Where has P.R. been lately anyway?

[frogboy]

PR's been playing World of Warcraft and actually working. The poor bastard.

As far as Dark Confidant goes, you don't freak out over individual cards getting turned over, you calculate the average CMC for the deck and see how much damage you'll average for a card. I play multiple five and six drops with four Confidants in Standard. Sure it sucks the one time in a hundred you flip running Melokus, but that's balanced out by all those other games you win with Necro Junior.

[kimberley]

The way most of your questions were wrote it seems like you haven't even played one game with the deck. Have you? Just because your an Adept doesn't give you the right to bash a deck without playing it first. It's like me going into The Rock thread and asking questions and aying that card choices are poor without even playing the deck first.

Actually...no...and yes. I tested none of your lists. I have my own list, containing most of the choices i mentioned (Unearth, Echoes MD etc.) which i - of course - tested.
The way most of my questions are wrote indicates that during those tests i reached the conclusion, that i would not like the black choices you suggested at all and were quite happy with the choices used. So if i cannot find any reasoning about my choices being inferior in a thread of several pages i may very well ask.

You may claim that Plague is an obvious inclusion, but did not say anything meaningful about Unearth and Echoes. In fact the only thing you said is that my post is trash.
You seem to miss the point that the quality of my post does not matter at all.
What matters is whether you can clearly describe what's the use of the deck.
If it is just "play it because you like it", like Umbowta said, that would indicate that choices are made based on popularity too.
Then i - as a user not as an adept - may very well ask, how this should go to open forum... without providing any reason to shout at me, like you did...

Edit:
Confidant - I am aware that the deck's curve is low and that their may be an obvious use outweighting a randomly drawn FoW - i am not fucking stupid.
I have made clear arguments about Confidant. Is "It's simply good" and "We tested it" all you can answer?
Ale Matchup - Saying that all versions of NQG have a similarly bad matchup against Ale is imo simply not true. As a user of both NQGw and NQGr i can say at least for my versions (which i have tested to an extend that should meet your high standards), that R outranks W in this Matchup by far.
I can see no reason why either your lists or mine should not rank even below W. As far as it goes for my version i have tested that, too - of course.

[Brushwagg]

As far as Uneath goes. It was considered as an option, however was deemed to be not great. While it can bring almost every creature back in the deck, that's all it does. I think Zilla made a good point in either this thread of the other on about it.

@Haunting Echoes:I have considered it, but it seems to slow. While it can kick the mirror in the junk I think there are faster options IE Withered Wretch, Furnace, and/or Tormod's Crypt.

@Dark Confidant:I'm not sure what you want to hear. It provides card advatage and can be a beater. If you afraid of the life loss then don't use it. I just feel that card advatage > life loss.

@Kimberly:If YOUR choices work in your meta then use them. Just don't come in here and start bashing on lists because you don't agree with the choices. I feel the life loss is well worth the extra cards drawn.

@Dead Guy match:I may have mistyped. This is not a favorable match-up. One that you can win or just as easily lose. I will agree that Red can have an easier time because of the burn.

[umbowta]

What matters is whether you can clearly describe what's the use of the deck.
If it is just "play it because you like it", like Umbowta said, that would indicate that choices are made based on popularity too.While that is one reason, and a good one i might add, to play the deck, it is not the only reason I gave. Forgive me for quoting myself but...
1) Play it because its different.
2) Play it because it totally fucking owns gobbos post board.
3) Play it because you want to see how well Edict works at taking down Nimble Mongoose or Troll fucking Ascetic.
4) Play it because you want to take down a Meddling Mage with a Possesed Aven.
5) Play it because you like U/B in any of its various incarnations.I even numbered it for ease of reading.

Now, onto the points you made which I overlooked while ranting. Haunting echoes huh? My initial thought was OMFG that thing costs 5, but, the more I thought about its uses, the more I kind of like it. In theory, you wont be casting Echoes until turn 6 or later, at which point you might actually have enough mana to cast it and encourage its resolution with a FoW and/or Daze. I'll try it.

Unearth? Really, Unearth? I've never tested it and I don't honestly see a need for it. What did you take out to fit it in and how is it benefitting your deck?

Oh yeah, and
...the quality of my post does not matter at all.sigged.

[Bane of the Living]

I tried Unearth and didn't like it. It cycles but still, I'd rather it be either another creature. I know it can get one back but I'd rather it just be a man since in the early game I may not have a creature. It was good occasionally. When I dredged men into the yard with Darkblast or put them there with Mental Note. I would like to add however, that my Deadguy match got alot better with Darkblast. It's actually the deciding card in the mirror as well. It kills Hippy, Confidant, and Shade. Shade is easy. Just blast it in response to pumping it, then play a draw card and get it back, then blast it again. They're usually pretty tight on mana to keep pumping him. You can blast him on their turn forcing them to leave mana to pump on your turn. He's usually not worth keeping alive to fight darkblast, but if your opponent plays into fighting for him, he usually stalls to do so, letting you take the game from under his feet.

[Brushwagg]

@Darkblast:I do like it, but not anymore then a 1 of, just because of the only giving -1/-1. I prefer the hard removal, with the possibilty of Darkblast, and Daze taking care of early cretures (Lackey, BOP ETC..).

[overlord95]

I tried Unearth and didn't like it. It cycles but still, I'd rather it be either another creature. I know it can get one back but I'd rather it just be a man since in the early game I may not have a creature. It was good occasionally. When I dredged men into the yard with Darkblast or put them there with Mental Note. I would like to add however, that my Deadguy match got alot better with Darkblast. It's actually the deciding card in the mirror as well. It kills Hippy, Confidant, and Shade. Shade is easy. Just blast it in response to pumping it, then play a draw card and get it back, then blast it again. They're usually pretty tight on mana to keep pumping him. You can blast him on their turn forcing them to leave mana to pump on your turn. He's usually not worth keeping alive to fight darkblast, but if your opponent plays into fighting for him, he usually stalls to do so, letting you take the game from under his feet.
If you are having problems with the deadguy ale match up your better off playing diabolic edict or even smother.

[Brushwagg]

Hmm.... No new posts as of late.

@Deadguy:Ya this is a problem, for all forms of Gro. I kind of glad that this is not really seen in my meta at all. As of yet I haven't really thought of how to combat it as of yet. The best I can think of so far is maybe Life from the Loam in the board. This takes care of the LD, which is the biggest pain. Other then that I really can't think of to much.

[Zilla]

Hmm.... No new posts as of late.

@Deadguy:Ya this is a problem, for all forms of Gro. I kind of glad that this is not really seen in my meta at all. As of yet I haven't really thought of how to combat it as of yet. The best I can think of so far is maybe Life from the Loam in the board. This takes care of the LD, which is the biggest pain. Other then that I really can't think of to much.
Compost is a total house in this matchup. They can still answer it with Vindicate and Dystopia, but it's a real force to be reconed with. Something to consider.

[Brushwagg]

Yup totally forgot about Compost.

As far as other match-ups go I really don't see anything else that doesn't give Gro in gerenal a bad match.

As anyone else given any thoughts on other cards to be included or results to post?

[Citrus-God]

Me and my friend have been doing pretty well, and right now we're sorta in more of an aggressive route. We chose Wonder and Psychatog as out beatz over Moroii. We haven't really heavily tested the deck yet, but it seems solid...


// Mana 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Undergorund Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 16
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Psychatog
2 Wonder


// Spells 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Diabolic Edict/Putrefy
2 Pernicious Deed


// Sideboard 15
1 Diabolic Edict/Putrefy
1 Dark Confidant
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Naturalize
2 Winter Orb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

[Bane of the Living]

I like the Madtog feel you have to your deck. Indeed Dr Teeth loves the yard does he not? That list looks good, I think I'll try it out. It looks like it might have trouble getting green? Only 4 Trops kinda scares me when your playing 5 more green spells than the average Thresh deck. With 4 more in the board.

[Slay]

How good is Tog anyway? His gyard ability really only can give him +3 or +5 at max, because killing threshold really sucks. I've found he's almost always worse than Mongrel.
-Slay

[Bane of the Living]

Tog is good.. Dont forget your getting 2 cards a turn off bob sometimes. Some of those are going to be your card draw. Built in combat tricks are under rated.

So good that Im trying to fit in a couple mongrels so I can play Circular Logic instead of counterspell.

[Brushwagg]

I really feel that Tog doesn't belong here for 2 reasons.

1.The lack of acutual card drawing (meaning getting more cards in hand instead of looking at more cards). I've tried Tog with the Gro draw engine. While it does wrok to a point it really lacks the finishing power. You really need FoF, DA etc.. which takes the deck in a totally different direction.

2.You really don't want to take Threshold away from Goose and Bear. These two really win you the most amount of games. But they also suck pretty hard without Threshold.

While I'm interested in how testing goes, I think you may come to the same conculsion I did. If your looking at other stuff for the Aven/Moroii slot there are alot of choices. If you are playing Deed/EE there is Hunted Horror. 7/7 trample for 2.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow, have you tried the aforementioned? With enough lib manipulation maybe this is a good deck to try the horror in. But maybe not haha. I'm gonna test alittle with 2 Dr teeth then with 2 Horrors.

[Citrus-God]

When I played with the deck, it's more primarily for Wonder, I just thought that Tog would also be a nice pick. I mean this deck gets into a lot of bad topdecks in late game, so Tog was just there for me to pitch things, and then recycle them if I have more that 7 cards in the grave...

[Brushwagg]

@Tog:Like I said it can work, just not well. I thought too that it would be a great fit, but testing proved other wise. With that being said I will say no more on the subject.

@Today:(Same List)Went 3-1 missing Top 4(which is stupid to have top 4) by f-ing Tie breakers. My wins came aganist 2x Cruel Bargain decks and Goblins (E.Plague for the W). My loss came to 3 color Angel Stompy. Actually it was the lack of drawing Puterfy when I needed it. All 3 games were really close.

[Citrus-God]

ehh... I've been losing to Angel Stompy as well. Mom is a problem. He also went Perish on me like 3 times... And if I had Mage on Perish, he'll just go Nature's Ruin. Worse game ever.

[Brushwagg]

It wasn't that way for me, I just could draw my removal when I needed it. I also had no SB slots for this match at all because it hasn't been played here in a really long time. For this match up though I'm thinking either of Stensh of Evil, or Virtue’s Ruin (Perish for White). Also a plus they either one can be used in the Gro/W match.

[Brushwagg]

This makes me sad no one's working on this deck besides me ??? :(

[AnwarA101]

This makes me sad no one's working on this deck besides me ??? :(

Well I'm not really sure why this deck is much different from the Red or White splashes. In fact why doesn't this deck play the same cards essentially except in certain cases play Black spells where appropriate. I've played the Red and White splashes, but I don't see why your list on the first page is so different. There are probably a couple of things to figure out -

1) Does Dark Confidant belong in this deck?

2) What's the best flyer you can play?

3) Why are you playing a 3cc removal spell (Putrefy)?

I'm not sure about the first 2, but I'm pretty sure playing Putrefy is very bad. First off its the slowest thing ever against aggro. Goblins can easily hit you with a wasteland and you have no way of playing it.

[Evil Roopey]

This makes me sad no one's working on this deck besides me ??? :(

Actually, I'm still working on it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Swamp (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [TE] Counterspell
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise
2 [5E] Portent
4 [JU] Mental Note


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [8E] Naturalize
SB: 2 [IA] Stench of Evil
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I have foung that to be the best list out of every color in the mirror match, while still keeping a stong Goblin game. Try it out. It's not running shitty removal like Purtefy, and it keeps all the essential Gro cards, while playing the best removal for the mirror.

Roop

[MattH]

Four Edicts? Really? Are these so necessary, and furthermore, could one of these be the goblin-slaughtering, threshold-zooming Darkblast? I'd also try to fit in Engineered Explosives, which gives you some MD artifact & enchantment kill, and have the cute property that they're 0 mana artifacts as far as Confidant is concerned.

Portent? Really? This seems unhappy. Are they just placeholders? My gut instinct tells me to make these Duress.

[Evil Roopey]

Four Edicts? Really? Are these so necessary, and furthermore, could one of these be the goblin-slaughtering, threshold-zooming Darkblast? I'd also try to fit in Engineered Explosives, which gives you some MD artifact & enchantment kill, and have the cute property that they're 0 mana artifacts as far as Confidant is concerned.

Yes they are actually, the mirror match is where you want to put most of your attention, along with the Goblin watchup. Eight removal spells ahs been working fantastically.


Portent? Really? This seems unhappy. Are they just placeholders? My gut instinct tells me to make these Duress

No they aren't. I didn't like only have 12 cantrips so I upped it to 14, and I have been quite please with it.

BTW, if you want a removal spell that is actually good against Goblins, run Echoing Decay since it produces card advantage. That's what the Portents were for a while, until I changed it.

Roop

[Bane of the Living]

One of the only reasons I was playing the black splash was for Darkblast. Your playing 8 removal spells and none of them are darkblast. I definitly see Demise being good but Darkblast is what keeps me at thresh against decks with yard hate. Thus, Thresh's weakness becomes much less relevant.

[Evil Roopey]

One of the only reasons I was playing the black splash was for Darkblast. Your playing 8 removal spells and none of them are darkblast. I definitly see Demise being good but Darkblast is what keeps me at thresh against decks with yard hate. Thus, Thresh's weakness becomes much less relevant.

But Darkblast is so weak. Sure it kills Lackeys, Fanatics, Shades, Dark Confidant, Mom, and wait that's it in a format revolving around creatures. Seems poor.

[Brushwagg]

Well I'm not really sure why this deck is much different from the Red or White splashes. In fact why doesn't this deck play the same cards essentially except in certain cases play Black spells where appropriate. I've played the Red and White splashes, but I don't see why your list on the first page is so different. There are probably a couple of things to figure out -

1) Does Dark Confidant belong in this deck?

2) What's the best flyer you can play?

3) Why are you playing a 3cc removal spell (Putrefy)?

I'm not sure about the first 2, but I'm pretty sure playing Putrefy is very bad. First off its the slowest thing ever against aggro. Goblins can easily hit you with a wasteland and you have no way of playing it.

To answer your questios.

1. DC is really good in the deck. Free card draw is always good. Add in the all the cantrips and manipulation it's solid gold.

2.Right now I would have to say Aven (at least in my meta). His Theshold ability is quite usful, and the fact that it turns Black keeps REB from killing it. I was also playing Morroi, which is pretty good there too. So I guess it's what yo perfer.

3.Puterfy was a meta call, I'll probably be switching back to Demise or Edict.

@Darkblast:I've been running 1 MD and like it at that number. While it does kill Lackey BOPs, etc I really never want to see it late.

@Engineered Explosives:I was running then, but Deed is just better. EE can never hit anything over 3. While it can kill tons of Goblins, E.Plague just does a better job.

[Hoojo]

But Darkblast is so weak. Sure it kills Lackeys, Fanatics, Shades, Dark Confidant, Mom, and wait that's it in a format revolving around creatures. Seems poor.

I agree. Darkblast is incrediably strong versus only a handful of creatures, and unless you can run three or more, it's not likely to make a huge impact versus these decks.

@Portant: One thing about this "not-quite-brainstorm" is the ability to look at your opponents library. It will probably not be that great in most matches, but it might be able to maintain a turn or two or tempo when you need it.

[Brushwagg]

@Portant: One thing about this "not-quite-brainstorm" is the ability to look at your opponents library. It will probably not be that great in most matches, but it might be able to maintain a turn or two or tempo when you need it.

Portent can be quite good if your meta is filled with Gro. Messing with there Serum Visions/Brainstorms. I can see Portent being quite useful.

@Darkblast:Pretty much I agree with it being only good for a hand full of creatures outright, but don't forget it can save a Werebear when blocking another 4/4. But not a strong card by itself that's why I only run it as 1 of.

[Citrus-God]

I got 3 and 1, and my only loss being Homebrew. If I had Composts and Darkblasts, that game would've been gg.

Togs got taken out, they suck. Not having flying makes me wanna cry, and Moroii is awesome. I'm also playing Edict again. Not having 3 mana constantly made me mad, and that game I had versus Reanimator was savage. I had like 13 Lands in play, and a full hand of 7. All was in play were 3 Bears, 2 Gooses, and 2 Confidants. How's that for a savage draw engine? Oh, and did I mention I was at 16?


// Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island


// Creatures 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
2 Moroii


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict


// Sideboard then
4 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Naturalize
4 Stifle


// Sideboard now
4 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Compost
2 Naturalize
2 Cranial Extraction


I wanna squeeze Darkblasts in here. So many times when I wanted to kill those Wretches...

[Bane of the Living]

Well having Darkblast would've helped eh?

Seriously, this card is so good at screwing up combat math. If my opponent doesn't know I have it I can block, give their creature -1/-1. Then play a Brainstorm, dredge 3 cards and reach threshold. Then replay Darkblast to give another -1/-1.

With 12-14 cantrips darkblast can easily be -2/-2 or -3/-3. If seen in multiples a Brainstorm can get them both back giving -4/-4. Building or rebuilding threshold at the same time.

What about Bob??

Bob makes up for the card you lose when you choose to dredge instead of draw. Duh. I guess I'm just the only one who loves this card. Darkblast is definitly what makes me play the black splash. Here's my newest list.

Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island


Men 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
2 Moroii


Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Peek
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Darkblast
3 Cabal Therapy

SB
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Naturalize
4 Diabolic Edict

I also seem to be the only one playing Cabal Therapy. If I could play 4 I would but I run few creautures to flash it back. Infact it isnt flashbacked too much. Peek is amazing because it lets me know if its safe to drop bob, and works wonders with Therapy.

[MattH]

@AntiAmerican: How happy are you with Deed? It seems like it would hurt your own stuff an AWFUL lot.

[Brushwagg]

I'm not a fan of them MD, but I have started to board them. They are great as a catch all, ie weenie hordes(goblins included), mulitple troublesome perments, etc..

I like all the new lists, as of yet I really haven't changed mind too much. I go back and forth between Ghastly Demise and Puterfy (depending on if alot of Black shows up).

@Dark Confidant:I'm not totally sure if I want more then 2 in the deck. Yes it is nice to see him, but I don't want to really draw multiples of him. This is also because I still run Night's Whispers.

Which brings me to another question: How come Night's Whisper is being cut from lists?? I really feel that this is on of the better cards in the deck. The only draw back is Sorcery. So can someone make this clearer to me, is it a meta call??

[Rambo]

I dont like the therapies, maybe duress would fit better? I also dont like the 4 deed considering you are running 1 and 2 casting cost creatures.

[Citrus-God]

@AntiAmerican: How happy are you with Deed? It seems like it would hurt your own stuff an AWFUL lot.

Well, let's simply put I never play any Creatures until the Deed activates. I admit, they are Dead when I'm smashing face with guys, but it's still great. I won 2 out of my 4 matches were random aggro.

Wb Angel Stompy ~ I won, Deed got rid of everything that was annyoing. Facedown Angel, equipment, and random guys. He sided in Needles, I sided in Naturalizes g2. I won that round with a resolved Confidant and a couple dudes, and him topdecking lands like crazy.


Angel Stompy ~ Again... Except I won this match faster due to lack of disruption. Seriously, isn't Angel Stompy suppose to beat Gro?


Reanimator ~ All I did was counter everything that was important. G2 I sided in Duress and Cranial for 4 Deeds, and 2 Moroii. I won that one with a resolved Confidant.


Homebrew ~ I wish I had Darkblasts and Compost. In other words, I lost.


@Brushwagg: I wanna try Night's Whisper actually, what should I take out? I'm thinking a couple Deeds (I miss you) and a couple Confidants.

[Lego]

I've always thought the best reason to run the black splash was for Night's Whisper. Does no one agree? Why is this awesome card not being run?

[Citrus-God]

I think the majority just tends to want to splash black for Confidant, and EP for the sb.

[Brushwagg]

I think the majority just tends to want to splash black for Confidant, and EP for the sb.

Yes but also Night's Whisper. When I saw the first list by Overlord95 I liked the fact of all the card draw before Confidant was added. I only run DC as a 2 of with NW as a 4 of. Making my draw engine look like this:

4x Night's Whisper
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Note (AK in teams)
2x Dark Confidant

I also find that DC gets alot of hate thrown at it too, so I tend not to rely on him alot.

[Bane of the Living]

Nights Whisper is a sorcery, thats my biggest problem with it. I dont feel safe casting it till turn 4 usually. Unless Im on the play and I have a daze/fow in hand. I was playing it but Im testing Peek with Therapy right now.

Therapy helps rip Tormods Crypt out of my opponents hand, and it kills my bob if he wants to kill me, rare but its there. Peek is great because it lets me know if its safe to drop bears w/o thresh. Sometimes I like to drop them and thresh them at instant speed, duh? So peek lets me know if its safe to do so. Seeing your opponents hand is huge, Solidarity is playing it now cause it helps them determine when they want to go off.

I wont say I dont miss Whisper because I do. Im simply trying other things out at the time. Whats the point of exploring the black splash if your not really going to explore it.

So far in my testing...
Possessed Aven = ok
Morii = ok
Tog = meh
Nights Whisper = good
Darkblast = good
Therapy = good
Bob = amazing
Ghastly Demise = good
Diabolic Edict = meh
Pernicious Deed = meh

I only like deed in the sb. But I suppose if you play the deck with a more controlling nature and deed the board before dropping threats, your cool. But I dont like that approach against Deadguy, an already bad matchup.

@Brushwagg
Are you serious about 2 Bobs? Mine die all the time so Im all about keeping 4.

[Brushwagg]

Therapy helps rip Tormods Crypt out of my opponents hand
I would rather play Duress in this style of deck, just because you really only get Crypt if you're playing first. Duress is just all around better. Besides I really don't fear Crypt, because of Mental Note. I fear Furnace and Wretch. They are the problematic cards which make it harder to get and maintain Threshold.

@Bane:Yes I'm serious about only 2 Confidant. While I do like him I never really have a problem with card draw, I do run 4x Night's Whisper. So my life can go down quite fast. Also I never ever cast 2 DC unless I have to IE: I need blockers.

[Citrus-God]

Dark Confidants are also chumb blockers so you can replace him easily after he dies to continue the draw engine, that seems to be my reason to run 4. I mean this guy is a sick Necro. But sure, Night's Whisper would probably get added in.

[Brushwagg]

Just to give a tourney up-date, I went 3-0-1(ID) today top 4 split. Nice varied meta game I took on Goblins(2-1) MBC(2-1) and Solidarity(2-0).

@Confidant:The main reason I only run 2 is because of Night's Whispers. I like that DC can supplement the draw. I really don't rely on him to be a hugh part of the draw engine. Yes he can give some sick card advantage. I NOT saying I going to cut him, just that I won't be adding more in.

[kicks_422]

This is the decklist I'm running...

1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Darkblast

SB
4 Naturalize
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle

I've found that Darkblast wasn't a dead draw most of the time... It allows Mongeese to survive against other 3/3's in combat, for one... And alters lots of combat math... That said, I've been happy with 2 in the MD...

4 Confidants are a real boon to the deck... Drawing 2 extra cards from it would have meant that it's already done a great job... With Serum Visions and Brainstorm, it's a lot less painful...

I've been happy with Edicts over Ghastly Demise... With all the Pikula decks running around, I just don't feel like having 4 dead cards in my deck...

[umbowta]

Well, let's simply put I never play any Creatures until the Deed activates. I admit, they are Dead when I'm smashing face with guys, but it's still great. Your list is totally friggin hot! The only thing I do differently is -2 deed, +2 Darkblast. With sooo much draw, I feel there really is no need to run a full compliment of either.

[Brushwagg]

I do like Deed also, but I feel it's better in the board then main deck. I'm using kind of as a catch all for those random matchs.

My SB is set setup to get around Pithing Needle quite well.

1x Withered Wretch
1x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Duress
3x BEB
3x Engineered Plague
1x Haunting Echoes (testing 1st week in the board)
3x Pernicious Deed (testing and liking)

[calosso]

What match-up does Haunting echoes and why is it a one of? Why are you running deed that card is terrible since you threats cost 2 or less except for moroii or possesed aven?

[Brushwagg]

Echoes is there mainly for testing and plus there can be alot of Gro in my meta.

@Deed:Again for meta reasons. There is alot of randomness running around and the deck does has some trouble with non-Goblin hordes. This is my catch all. Also I'm not going to play all my threats and then drop Deed and blowit. If you can come up with something that can fill this slot better I'm all ears.

[Bane of the Living]

@Brushwagg
So you bring in 9 cards against gobs???

What are you taking out? Counterspells?

[Brushwagg]

No not really, usally only 6 BEB, and Plague. I usally take out the Confidants or Avens(depends on how what they have in their deck), 2-3 Nights Whispers, and 1-2 Mental Note. I've found this to be the best options. Then I also change my play style a little, going more control and after locking them out bashing face.
So basically I end up with this
4x Ghastle Demise
1x Darkblast
3x BEB
3x E. Plague

[Citrus-God]

Your list is totally friggin hot! The only thing I do differently is -2 deed, +2 Darkblast. With sooo much draw, I feel there really is no need to run a full compliment of either.

Thanks, but I need more 1cc cantrips though...

I actually did that just now. Last week I got a horrid 2 and 2, so I thought; screw Deeds, Darkblasts... and that was my sad story. I'm quite happy you caught that before I thought of it. So thanks.

[umbowta]

Thanks, but I need more 1cc cantrips though...

Your really think so? In my experience, 12 of them is often times more than enough. You are running 12 right...

4x brainstorm
4x serum vision
4x mental note
???

[Ghetto_Santa]

Just wanna throw this idea out...
Serendib Efreet?

[Citrus-God]

Your really think so? In my experience, 12 of them is often times more than enough. You are running 12 right...

4x brainstorm
4x serum vision
4x mental note
???

I only got 2 and 2, because I got mana screwed like 4 times. That seems to be the standard base to NQG Red, but I guess it works.

Anyway, that's why I wanted more cantrips. I may have just had a bad day in general, so yeah... I'll stick with what I have.

So anyway, thanks.

[Brushwagg]

Just wanna throw this idea out...
Serendib Efreet?

Umm both Possessed Aven and Morroi are better, because of the power of 4. While the 3CC is nice, the flyers are already smaller then White or Reds. So I don't see making it even smaller(if you run a big flyer). Plus I think this was discussed on like page 1 or 2.

[b4r0n]

I've been messing around with this deck a bit, and I love it. Night's Whisper is amazing; it actually gives you card advantage, unlike the draw engines in red and white splashes. I would never run black without Night's Whisper. However, I haven't liked Confidant that much. I'm running 6 spells with converted mana costs of 4 or higher, and I'm already dealing with pain from fetches, Whispers, and Moroiis. It seems too risky for me, but I guess that's just my personal preference.

I've been playing 2 Darkblasts maindeck, as they're decent spot removal/combat trickery and they help to build Threshold ridiculously fast. In some matchups, they're invaluable post-board when recovering from Crypt. I like them a lot.

Here's the list that I've been working with:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Moroii

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Night's Whisper

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Darkblast

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
3 Naturalize
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress

The biggest issue that I've had has been Pikula. I have absolutely no good removal between my maindeck and sideboard. What would you sideboard for this matchup? What would you guess the win percentage is?

Question: Many of the lists in this topic seem to only run 17 lands. Has 17 been enough?

[Bane of the Living]

17 Lands seems to be enough for me if Im not playing Morii. But then again, I'm playing Bob, your not.

If Deadguy is giving you problems I'd recommend trying Edict over Ghastly Demise.

[Brushwagg]

The biggest issue that I've had has been Pikula. I have absolutely no good removal between my maindeck and sideboard. What would you sideboard for this matchup? What would you guess the win percentage is?

Question: Many of the lists in this topic seem to only run 17 lands. Has 17 been enough?

Well Dead Guy is a bad/unfavorable match-up for all forms of Gro, so don't feel to bad about it. They simply have a lot of disruption and you need to counter alot of it. I would probably go with Edict, if you see alot of it in your meta, you could also go for Deed in the board.

As far as the life loss issue you could always switch to Possessed Aven. It basically the same as Morroi, and gain the kill a blue creature. Not to mention it can be REBed out of play.

@Dark Confidant(Bob):We have gone over this alot, and with all the manipulation in the deck you rarley loos more then 2 life from him. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, because it does, just not as often as you think it would. He is great as aloowing you to draw extra cards. We just can't agree on how many should be main deck.

@17 lands:I feel this is the right number. Too many times I seem to to get flooded, go figure. The one thing I don't like about your list is all the non-basics. I've been running the following and find it to my liking.

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp

[Citrus-God]

You guys know Deadguy isn't that bad if you run things like Compost, and anti black cards. Also, Bob can cantrip you into more lands.

[smeagol]

I've been testing a U/G Thresh deck without any splashes. I play Psionic Blast and Rushing River as removal and it worked fairly well. Maybe the Blast would be something to consider in the Removal Spot? It has the great benefit of being able to burn the opponent if the ground is stalled and you need to do the last bits of damage...

[Bryant Cook]

I've been testing a U/G Thresh deck without any splashes. I play Psionic Blast and Rushing River as removal and it worked fairly well. Maybe the Blast would be something to consider in the Removal Spot? It has the great benefit of being able to burn the opponent if the ground is stalled and you need to do the last bits of damage...
This doesn't belong here, not to mention there's no good reason to not splash a color. This deck's numbers are constantly growing and should be moved to open.

[Brushwagg]

This deck's numbers are constantly growing and should be moved to open.

Well that's not for us to decide :(. I will be playing this though at Kaddy's tourney this weekend. I will be changing the SB around a little though.

@No splash:I agree with Wastedlife, there is really no good reason not to splash a 3rd color. If you want to discuss it though I would suggest opening a new thread.

[smeagol]

My point wasn't to play the deck without splashes.
I wanted to suggest to consider Psionic Blast as a possible Spot Removal choice, as it has the added benefit of also being able to be aimed at the opponent. Maybe I'm wrong, but at least in my opinion it seems like a viable option.

[Brushwagg]

If I was going to play Direct Damage, then I would be playing the Red version. The Damage to cost ratio is alot better. Not to mention Fire & Ice can split the damage or draw, and Magma Jet can Scrye. So to get to the point, there are alot of better cards out there to be playing, for this deck.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Psionic Blast seems worthy of consideration over the red spells if only because it's so much better in the mirror match. I wouldn't play it over Ghastly Demise, but it is an interesting option for any removal slots beyond the first four. Just two or three Blasts would give the deck significant reach, and they answer Werebears!

The main problem with the card is that it's stretching the curve at 3 mana, but hey, I'd play it over Putrefy in a heartbeat.

[Elfrago]

For the removal you could try Smother. It's cheap and kills lots of things.

For the big beater Moroii is fine, but you already have a lot of life-loss cards, other choiches could be:
Horobi, Death's Wail ( but it make our army too fragile)
Possessed Aven (simply too bad)
Possessed Centaur (No flying, but it kills werebears and mystic enforcer)
Ravenous Baloth (No Flying, but helps with some life points)
Razorjaw Oni ( No Flying but no other no sensible drawback)
Sea Drake (Perfect, but can you find them?)
Thought Devourer(I don't know, we do often have more than 3 cards in hand)
Waterspout Djinn (No more lads drop, but it seems fine)

[Brushwagg]

Well I didn't do to good at the Dual LAnd draft 4-2. Which sucks hard. But it was nice to that Overlord95 did make top 8 with his build.


3rd Place
Scott Scheurer(Overlord95) UGb Gro
Pick: 4 Taiga

4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
3 Pithing Needle
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
SB:
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt


My only problem with it is, no Night's Whisper, but I can't argue with the results. So props to Overlord95, maybe this will get this thread some more love.

Edit:@Elfrago:
Possessed Centaur (No flying, but it kills werebears and mystic enforcer) Bears yes, Enforcer NO. Once you have Threshold it becomes Black and Enforcer has pro Black.

[Evil Roopey]

For the removal you could try Smother. It's cheap and kills lots of things.

For the big beater Moroii is fine, but you already have a lot of life-loss cards, other choiches could be:
Horobi, Death's Wail ( but it make our army too fragile)
Possessed Aven (simply too bad)
Possessed Centaur (No flying, but it kills werebears and mystic enforcer)
Ravenous Baloth (No Flying, but helps with some life points)
Razorjaw Oni ( No Flying but no other no sensible drawback)
Sea Drake (Perfect, but can you find them?)
Thought Devourer(I don't know, we do often have more than 3 cards in hand)
Waterspout Djinn (No more lads drop, but it seems fine)

I haven't found this version to need a fatty creature. In fact I'm a firm believer that no Gro needs fat, you just need to learn how to play the deck. You don't need an oops I win card, just learn how to manage your cards and you won't have to clutter up your deck with unnessecary cards.

[Lego]

I think the deck needs at least two token fat creatures. Too many games are won by stalling the ground and swinging with fat in the air. I know it was White thresh, but my Semis match at Kadi's DLD would have gone a lot different had he not had Mystic Enforcer both games. The fat allows for a much faster clock and random outs, which are always good. It may be a safety net in a lot of situations, but you shouldn't not play good cards simply because they allow bad players to win. They let good players win more easily, and that's what you should be looking for in a card, right?

[Evil Roopey]

If the card is just there to make you win easily, then wouldn't it be considered win more? I would say so, and I would say that win more cards are unnessecary in this deck. Sure it might take more skill, but should we really make decks so that people who can't play Magic can play it? I don't think so.

[Hoojo]

I haven't found this version to need a fatty creature. In fact I'm a firm believer that no Gro needs fat, you just need to learn how to play the deck. You don't need an oops I win card, just learn how to manage your cards and you won't have to clutter up your deck with unnessecary cards.

I agree. The UGB version I had played before Ravnica only ran Nimble Mongoose and Werebear. The extra slots you gain allow you to capitalize on Blacks array of draw, control, and creature removal.

[Lego]

If the card is just there to make you win easily, then wouldn't it be considered win more?

No. A win more card is a card that allows you to win more easily when you're already winning. What Mystic Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon or any other fat does in this deck is allow you to randomly pull out games you shouldn't win, or quickly win games that you might have won anyway so that your opponent doesn't have time to draw into an answer. They turn some even matchups into better ones, and without them you're going to be losing to aggressive decks a lot more often.

[Bane of the Living]

I dont use a fat creature in my white Thresh. I play 4 Bear, 4 Goose, 4 Mage. 4 mage is great and I wouldnt pull them for Enforcers ever.

I've tried alot of finishers for the black splash but I also feel its not necessary. Bob and Nights Whisper give you tons of more card advantage and you can easily find more goose/bears or counters.

[Brushwagg]

Also note that Overlord95's list didn't run a big flyer. Looking back at the weekend I would have liked the Pithing Needle. I suppose that it can be cut. Also I'm thinking of seriously giving Portent a try. While the Thresh advantage of Mental Note was good, I hated seeing FOW and Gooses go to the yard. Happened more then once on Saturday.

[Bane of the Living]

If Portent becomes favored over Mental Note we do have our black splash to aide Threshold. Darkblast becomes even more favored. I would go to 3 copies with no Mental Notes.

[Brushwagg]

Portent is worth testing. However Overlord ran Predict in place of Night's Whisper too. I'm not a big fan of Predict because you really have to know what's on top of your library to get the 2 cards. I would much rather just pay the 2 life to get to cards with no set-up needed.

[URABAHN]

Portent is worth testing. However Overlord ran Predict in place of Night's Whisper too. I'm not a big fan of Predict because you really have to know what's on top of your library to get the 2 cards. I would much rather just pay the 2 life to get to cards with no set-up needed.

When you're playing with Brainstorm, Portent, and Serum Visions, I think you've got a pretty good chance of knowing what's on top of your deck. I'd much rather save 2 life, mill something unimportant off the top of my deck, and still get two cards. Maybe you target your opponent, mill something and draw two cards, that seems good, too.

[AnwarA101]

Portent is worth testing. However Overlord ran Predict in place of Night's Whisper too. I'm not a big fan of Predict because you really have to know what's on top of your library to get the 2 cards. I would much rather just pay the 2 life to get to cards with no set-up needed.

I think Predict is very reliable with 12 stacking effects. If Predict is almost always 2 for 1 and its at instant speed and doesn't cost you 2 life - it might be worth considering. Night's Whisper is a good card, but Predict might just be better with 12 setup spells.

[Brushwagg]

But that the point I'm trying to make. Night's Whisper doesn't need Brainstorm Serum Visions etc..... Yes it's a sorcery, but you don't need any set-up. Predict is only at full potentional with the other cards.

Also remember the only life point that counts is your last.

[Lego]

But Night's Whispers only ever draws you two cards for two life. Predict also puts two cards in your yard instead of just one, and it randomly screws an opponent who is playing Enlightened Tutor (or any such effect.)

[Bryant Cook]

But Night's Whispers only ever draws you two cards for two life. Predict also puts two cards in your yard instead of just one, and it randomly screws an opponent who is playing Enlightened Tutor (or any such effect.)

Night's whipser's is fine as a draw spell, as long as you have mental note, to boost threshold. If you take away mental note, the deck is less effective because your threshold rate is taking longer. Predict or mental not eneed to be in the deck to increase threshold speed. I myself loathe mental note and run predict. You could always run both Predict and Night's Whisper.

[Lego]

Running both Predict and Night's Whispers would make for a lot of CA, but would decrease the efficiency of your cantrip engine. You'd have to take out Portent, meaning you'd be left with only 8 ways to set up Predict. This isn't too horrible, but I think this would too often turn Predict into 1U, Draw a card. I've only ever run Predict with 12 set up spells (I used to run it alongside Magma Jet) and I'd be hesitant to go down to 8. Night's Whispers plus Predict almost certainly means you're going to go down to 8 set up effects. Has that been enough for you?

[Bryant Cook]

Running both Predict and Night's Whispers would make for a lot of CA, but would decrease the efficiency of your cantrip engine. You'd have to take out Portent, meaning you'd be left with only 8 ways to set up Predict. This isn't too horrible, but I think this would too often turn Predict into 1U, Draw a card. I've only ever run Predict with 12 set up spells (I used to run it alongside Magma Jet) and I'd be hesitant to go down to 8. Night's Whispers plus Predict almost certainly means you're going to go down to 8 set up effects. Has that been enough for you?

I'm aware on how to play predict, thank you. I was also being just a wee-bit sarcastic on that part of the post. If you really want to know you could always just go 2-2.

[Lego]

I'm aware on how to play predict, thank you. I was also being just a wee-bit sarcastic on that part of the post. If you really want to know you could always just go 2-2.

Sorry, didn't catch the sarcasm. I also didn't mean to be condescending about Predict, I was just saying it seems like 8 set up spells doesn't seem amazing. With 12, I like it a lot though. I also often fall prey to the Danger of Cool Plays, and I've hosed an Enlightened or Mysitcal Tutor with it a couple of times.

[Nightmare]

I figure this is the best place to guarantee he sees it, so Happy Birthday Brushwagg!

[Bane of the Living]

Wow I thought the same thing. Happy B Day Brushwagg.

[Brushwagg]

Thankyou all.

Back on topic:Predict VS. Night's Whisper:I'm not sure what way to go here. I do like the instant speed of Predict, but its ass without knowing what's on top of your library. While Night's Whisper is a sorcery, but it draws you cards with no setup. So I'm pretty much on the fence.

Big Flyer:I almost certain that this can be cut, in place of Confidant. My only hope is if the new set bring something worthy of the slot. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Lego]

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Creature- Avatar
Flying
When Avatar of Discord comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard two cards.
5/3

In actuality, it costs (B/R)(B/R)(B/R). The casting cost is prohibitive, but he's the best flyer so far from the new set. I don't see him finding a place in this deck, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Realistically, if you play the deck well, you probably don't need a beater. He'll probably win you games you shouldn't have won, but being dead in the early game and possibly not being able to cast him in the late game has come up often enough for me that I'd be fine eschewing it, especially for something as powerful as Confidant.

[Bryant Cook]

Avatar of Discord- BBB
Creature- Avatar
Flying
When Avatar of Discord comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard two cards.
5/3

In actuality, it costs (B/R)(B/R)(B/R). The casting cost is prohibitive, but he's the best flyer so far from the new set. I don't see him finding a place in this deck, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Realistically, if you play the deck well, you probably don't need a beater. He'll probably win you games you shouldn't have won, but being dead in the early game and possibly not being able to cast him in the late game has come up often enough for me that I'd be fine eschewing it, especially for something as powerful as Confidant.
I'll 3 for one you with a lightning bolt, thank you sir. The deck's flying options arn't that great, you're best off just playing 4 bob's.

@ Brushwagg- I would of posted my birthday comment here but it would've been deleted. Hope you don't mind that I gave it to you via PM.

[Brushwagg]

Since this thrad is still Open, I thought I would get some feed back on some changes I'm thinking about to my list.

//Lands
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

//Draw
4x Serum Visions
2x Mental Note
4x Brainstorm
3x Night's Whisper
4x Portent

//Counter/Control
3x Daze
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Ghastly Demise
1x Darkblast

//Creatures
3x Dark Confidant
4x Werebear
4x Nimble Mongoose

Cutting
-2 Possessed Aven:Testing without. Most times he was pitched to FOW.
-2 Mental Note:I liked it when I could get Threshold very fast, but didn't like dumping good stuff in the yard. So I think 2 is a better number.
-1 Night's Whisper:More for adding in the 3 Confidant and Portent. I still like the draw 2 with no setup.

Added:
4x Portent:Seems like a good fit. Works well with Bob. Plus you can randomly look at the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck.
1x Dark Confidant:Do I really need to say anything?

Not really anything earth shaking. But should be able to give me even more card advantage. One other questionable slot is Darkblast. Not sure here. I think 1 is good just because there are alot of 1 drops (Lackey) that I really don't like burning a Ghastly Demise on.

[Bane of the Living]

I played an online tourny and went 4-1.

First round Gobs.
I draw a hand with Delta, Goose, Goose, Darkblast, Mental Note, Strand. Very nice. I blast some gobs and get turn 2 thresh with a goose in play. He concedes after I daze a warcheif and drop the second goose.
Game 2 He plays vial turn one, then I topdeck Force. I Force a gob and play some cantrips. Bob shows up at some point. I play Serum Visions and draw E Plague, I scrye and see another there. He said he forgot I could bring those in. hah!

Round 2 Angel Stompy
I Ghastly a turn one Mother of Runes. Play an unthreshed bear cause I have nothing. I rip Brainstorm, shuffle away some lands and Daze something. Bob comes down and the bear grows instant speed during combat.
Game 2 He womps me with a good draw of men and Parallax Wave.
Game 3 He starts slow and plays some equips. I chose not to counter a Jitte since he has no men and no cards in hand. I play Bob, he plays guy and equips, I Demise it. He plays Isamaru, I Darkblast it, Brainstorm, dredge, blast it. He plays Angel, I Counterspell ftw.

Round 3 Belcher
Apparently this deck is picking up popularity again? I Daze a Land Grant and beat him to death. Bob draws me extra counterspells ftw.
Game 2 goes something the same. I stall him for a while I Darkblast a Xantid Swarm then a Goblin Welder. I still manages to belch but hits a land doing only 12 damage. I kill him before he gets another activation.

Round 5 White Thresh
He plays maindeck Meddling Mages. He names bob cause he didnt know what my removal was. I get thresh 2 turns before him and get 2 mongoose down through Dazes.
Game 2 he has a Worship out and an Enforcer. Things look quite bad here. I lost obviously.
Game 3 he gets Enforcer but I counter a Worship. I race Enforcer thanks to bob ripping 2 cards a turn but it was scary.

Round 4 Red Thresh
This didnt go so well. He burt bob down and saw Werebears. I saw mongoose. We know how that goes.
Game 2 Went the same, he did like 10 points to me and I took 5 off bob.

4-1 isnt bad.

Can we get this moved to the Open Forums now?

[Brushwagg]

Good job Bane. I might make one make one suggestion. When I play Red Gro/Burn/Sligh I tend to side out Bob, just because of the burn to the nugget. I bring in BEB, making it so I have more counters.

[AnwarA101]

Cutting
-2 Possessed Aven:Testing without. Most times he was pitched to FOW.
-2 Mental Note:I liked it when I could get Threshold very fast, but didn't like dumping good stuff in the yard. So I think 2 is a better number.
-1 Night's Whisper:More for adding in the 3 Confidant and Portent. I still like the draw 2 with no setup.

Added:
4x Portent:Seems like a good fit. Works well with Bob. Plus you can randomly look at the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck.
1x Dark Confidant:Do I really need to say anything?


I thought the whole point of running Mental Note is so that you build Threshold early in the game. It hardly seems likely that Mental Note will do that for you if you are only running 2. I think if you aren't likely Mental Note - then 2 is probably worse than 4, because you might see them in the mid game after reaching Threshold where they are just worse than your other cantrips. Night's Whisper vs. Predict is a closer call, but I ran the draw engine this weekend that ObFreely ran at the Dual Land Draft and I really liked it in UGW -

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict

Perhaps Black can afford to run Night's Whisper instead, but with so much setup casting a blind Predict doesn't come up that often.

[Bane of the Living]

Im sometimes thinking I dont need a draw 2 in this deck thanks to bob. Im going with 3 Predicts for now, mostly bc its an instant.

I dont know why I left bob in, figured better him dead than me I guess. I know I took at least one copy out.

[Brushwagg]

I gave it some thought after I posted and settled on this.
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Night's Whisper
3 Portent
3 Mental Note

Not sure I might go back to Predict and test it again. I just like Night's Whisper to damn much to cut. I might go with something like this.

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Night's Whisper
3 Portent
3 Predict

A little more mana intensive but with Dark Confidant plus that I should be able to rack up alot of quality cards.

One other thing I've been thinging of adding is the fourth Counterspell. I might just be paranoid but with the lack of the flyer it might be justified.

[Windux]

Yesterday, I played the following list:

//Lands
3x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

//Draw
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
4x Predict

//Counter/Control
3x Daze
3x Counterspell
2y Pithing Needle
4x Force of Will
4x Ghastly Demise
1x Darkblast

//Creatures
3x Dark Confidant
4x Werebear
4x Nimble Mongoose

Sideboard:
3x Duress
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Hidden Gibbons
2x Tormods Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
1x Naturalize

So, very similar to the posted Lists here.
It was very fun to play the Deck. You allways know what is on top of your library and what your Bob go to reveal.
I played 5-2 agaisnt the following Decks:

Round 1: Suicide
This sounded very hard to me, because Mainboard i got only one single Darkblast as removal. My opponent played 2 Dark Confidants, because he needed more creatures, but just revealed Vindicate, Hypnotic Specter and some discard. My Confidant did it more well and revealed enough counter, the pithing Needle just at the right place as he played his Nantuko Shade.
He sworded his own Bobs to alive 2 more rounds, but my beats are just too much for him.
I boarded in 2 Edicts, 3 Gibbons against 4 Demise & 1 Predict.
I mean,Suicide plays 4 Rituals, Edicts and Swords and my Demises are just useless.
It turned out, hidden gibbon is a "counter" for removal against Werebear..he removes a werebear and I get another 4/4 Beater who dont even need Threeshold
2-0
1-0

Round 2:iggy Pop
He starts with a leyline and until Turn 3 I don't know what he's playing.
He combo me out, with playing an early Ill Gotten-Gaisn to let me stand without handcards and just 1/1 creatures to make the combo next turn.
Game 2 I mulliganed down to 6 with Force, Daze, Draw but no land. I made it to turn 3 without a land, but countering him his elemental cards. Later in the game, he just makes his combo and has one mana to much, to cast Tendrils against double-Daze his Cabal Ritual.
0-2
1-1

Round 3: Burn
I play early Mongooses and can counter his good burnspells. He played a Pyrostatic Pillar and I let resolve it. He plays another burnspells, which I counter as well, getting 2 Damage but win the "Pillar-Race" with 2 Threshed Mongoose.
Game 2 he took mulligan to 6, being flooded. I searched 3 basics an one Tropical, taking his life down with 3 Mongoose after playing mass of Cantrips with 3 Predict (of course on the right named card ;) ).
It turn out his hand was filled with Lands, 2 Sirrocco and 2 Price of Progress, which not really do a thing against my Manabase and a hand with a maximum 2 blue cards.
I boarded out 4 Ghastly Demise against 3 Hiddon Gibbon & 1 Duress
2-0
2-1

Round 4: RG Beats
A nice person, but not a that nice player. he plays orcish lumberjack, saccing second turn his land for River Boa and Skryshroad Elite. I Counter River Boa and Demise his Elite eot.
He can't coem back in the game, because I play at all 3 Ghastly Demise, 1 Darkblast and a few Counters. Confidant just made a godly draw.
Boarded in 2 Diabolic Edict against 2 Pithing Needle
He starts again with Lumberjack, saccing his land second turn for Troll Ascetic which resolves.
I played a 1st Turn Mongoose anda 2nd Turn Confidant never getting a single Lifeloss the whole game.
He attacks with Lumberjack, because he can't regenerate his Troll because he only got one Factory. The next turn i Demised his Lumberjack and played an Edict on him, losing his Ascetic.
On the next turns, I do my "Combothing" stacking my deck with Portent, Serum Vision and so on. I shuffled all my counters away, just to get more Canttrips for the fast Threeshold-Beats.
2-0
3-1

Round 4: NQG/w
If he drops his Enforcer, it would be game if I can't race him.
I start again with an first Turn Mongoose, he just Draw until Turn 3, where he plays a Werebear. I get my Dark Confidant and can counter his Swords.
After a few rounds the board looks like Confidant, Mongoose, Werebear against Werebear, mongoose. I attack with my *****-Creatures, which he blocks 1:1 and get the way free for the Confidant beats.
He make it possible to resolve an Enforcer and raced my just by one round.
I boarded: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Mongoose, 1 Werebear, 1 Darkblast, 1 predict against 2 Tormods Crypt, 3 Hiddon Gibbon, 1 naturalize (knowing, he plays a singular Worship)

He gets a first turn Furnace. I play a second turn Confidant, countered him his 2nd turn Werebear and just get the insane Cardadvantage with Confidant and drawspells. I find enough Creatures, beating him without threeshold, until he get's his Thresh-Creatures. I find my first Crypt and a Hidden Gibbon which I played the same turn before I played the Crypt. He swords my Confidant, wanting to let me waste counters on that Spell, but I said ok, gettign 2 Life and a 4/4 Gibbon. He playd then an Enforcer, which i countered, because I had a Hand full of allmost Everything and he just zero handcards. After he saw, he can't race my Graveyard with Furnace anymore, he sacced it, played a few Bears and has again Threeshold. But I just played another Crypt and some removal.
After the game he just said "I just feld, like your a combodeck..your turns took so much time....". After we talked about our Sideboard-Plans, he said, he boarded his Worship out :)
2-0
4-1

Round 5: Landstill
He just gets 2 Factorys and a CoW, with wrathing my creatures.
Just his game...
I boarded: +1 Tormods Crypt,+ 3 Hiddon Gibbon, +3 Duress, -2 Werebear, -1 Darkblast, - 2 Portent and some more Cantrip or something..can't remember.

First Turn Duress reveals me CoW, Force, Leak, Counterspell and some other badstuff, taking his CoW.
He plays 2nd turn Standstill supported by a Factory.
I break the Standstill for Hidden gibbon+ Confidant. he plays a WoG and meddling mage naming Ghastly Demise.
A Disk+Manlands bringing him the cleary Boardposition.
0-2
4-2

Last Round: NQG/r
Game 1 I play the Creatures and Confidant. He burns my Confidant, I counter his Creatures. I play a second Confidant.
And the end, I win at 1 Life, because he can't burn me anymore (My Handcards 6, his 0).
Game 2 I play Hidden gibbons and he 2 Quirion Dryads.
He plays a Serum Visionand put the triggers from the Dryads on the Stack. I respond with Darkblast, Brainstorm, dredging Darkblast leaving him with a Serum Vision on the Stack and zero creatures in play.
I make another insane moves with Confidant, Librarymanipulation and predict.
In one turn i drew 5 cards...this game was clearly in my favor.
2-0
5-2

I made the 6th place.

if you ask, why I posted this report? There are two reasons:
First, I have a exam in english tomorrow and just want to get a little training of my speech ( I hope, this post is readable and in a good English :) ).
Second reason is, I want to discuss my Sideboard-Chooses.
My most interest is in the choose, to board Gibbons against Werebear or Mongoose. against Burn and NQG/r I boarded out the Werebears.
Against NQG/w i boarded out Mongoose, to get more 4/4 creatures then him.

In the entire tournament, I found pithing Needle in the Mainboard to be the worst choose I did. Against landstill its good, but he overcountered my everytime. On the Tournament there was just ONE Goblins. Last Month there were much more. So I never boarded in Plagues, but it seems to be the best solution if you play against Goblins.

Hidden gibbons are really good mainboard-Cards against Mirror, landstill, Burn and much more Decks. Even Suicide plays 4 Dark Ritual, 2 Swords, X Edicts Mainboard.
Im gonna test 3 Hidden Gibbons Mainboard, leaving the Needles in my Sideboard and just 3 Werebear. You draw so much, that it's not necessary against Goblins, if you have just 3 Werebears Main, even after boarding, where you then have 2 Needles and 4 Plagues.

[Vimes]

I have not played black thresh, but if you don't mind me asking, why are the draw two spells necessary? The current builds of other flavors of thresh have cut them, and Dark Confidant gives you an edge already. Just wondering.

[AnwarA101]

I have not played black thresh, but if you don't mind me asking, why are the draw two spells necessary? The current builds of other flavors of thresh have cut them, and Dark Confidant gives you an edge already. Just wondering.

They are not really necessary, but it comes down to a matter of choice. Most builds have come to agree that both Brainstorm and Serum Visions should be included as 1cc cantrips. Some builds add Mental while others favor Portent. Some builds completely ignore 2cc draw spells completely. Its just a matter of choice and opinion. I still believe that the 16 cantrip version is best with Predict used both to generate card advantage as well as building Threshold.

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict

[Obfuscate Freely]

I have not played black thresh, but if you don't mind me asking, why are the draw two spells necessary? The current builds of other flavors of thresh have cut them, and Dark Confidant gives you an edge already. Just wondering.
What do you mean by "current builds?" The two Gro decks that made Top 8 at Kadi's Dual Land Draft both ran the 16 spell draw engine Anwar posted. Where those builds not current?

Most of Gro's strengths are derived from the cantrip engine. It makes sense to run the minimal numbers of other cards in order to strengthen that engine.

[Brushwagg]

@Windux:I have to say excellent job on the 6th place finish. But a big NO to cutting the Werebear. There's just not enough other creatures to take up the slack. Yes Hidden Gibbons(very tech) worked out for you, don't forget Werebears other abilty (tap for G) can prove useful.

@Predict:I really hate this card. Maybe it's just me but I'll take my chances with Mental Note and Night's Whisper. Even running Serum Visions, Brainstorm, and Portent there were to many times I didn't know what was on top of my library.

[quicksilver]

This is a thread for the black splash of threshold. Here is a basic list I just made up. Feel free to add comments or whatever.

4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

[Geet]

So... all you did was swap STP out for Ghastly Demise, and Meddling Mage out for Bob? How unoriginal....

The white version will definitely be better... the cantrips already ensure card quality... adding Bob does nothing but lower your life versus aggro and weaken your combo matcup by losing Mage. Not to mention, Ghastly Demise is strictly worse than StP. The only thing you've really bought yourself is a few different sideboard options.

[Nightmare]

Threads Merged. Moved to Open.

[Citrus-God]

So... all you did was swap STP out for Ghastly Demise, and Meddling Mage out for Bob? How unoriginal....

The white version will definitely be better... the cantrips already ensure card quality... adding Bob does nothing but lower your life versus aggro and weaken your combo matcup by losing Mage. Not to mention, Ghastly Demise is strictly worse than StP. The only thing you've really bought yourself is a few different sideboard options.

... Nope. Wrong!

Adding Bob means you have a Late Game, more guys, more resources, more counters, more lands, and more Library Manipulation to make it worth using this late in the game. If you look at the Hatfield Thresh, it's basic philosophy is to use a cantrip to make a chain of more cantrips, and cast business spells as well. So what Bob does is thinning your entire deck so you can find your other cantrips to keep the chain going, and maintain a better consistentsy on finding spells you need to get you throughout the game.

Look, the Black version takes a lot of skill to play. You have to judge your card quality throughout the game. Otherwise every reveal you make is a stupid land. You dont want every top card to be a land, you want to get the job done.

As for my version...


// Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Portent
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ghastly Demise


// Sideboard 15
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
3 Pernicious Deed


This is my take on Overlord's version which he used to Top 8 the Kadi's Dual Land Draft. I find this version to be very strong in the field. And I also dont take as much damage as I want to really.

[quicksilver]

So... all you did was swap STP out for Ghastly Demise, and Meddling Mage out for Bob? How unoriginal....

Yeah, actually, that is exactly what I did. I don't play the deck, I've played against it once. With the splitting of the gro threads we needed a black version thread so I figured I would create it so people can post in it. I also figured I would just throw up some basic starting list so the thread had at least some sort of starting point.

I didn't realize that Mr. Nightmare had this old thread to use instead, which was far superior.

[Brushwagg]

I didn't realize that Mr. Nightmare had this old thread to use instead, which was far superior.

This thread was locked and dead for a while (After being let back into the LMF). I think I'm going to have rewrite and post a new one.

Back on topic:

@Geet:I really don't think that any version is greater then another version. The match-ups usally go to who draws the better cards and is 50/50.

The place that the Black version really shines is the card draw. You can keep up a good hand size while still filtering what cards you see. Dark Confidant(Bob) is just amazing, it's a walking cantrip that keeps on drawing you cards (Just ask Mr. Nightmare and Wastedlife how amazing they both splash Black in their builds for Bob).

I also feel that Black has the BEST Goblin match of all the Gro builds. Pyroclasm, and Trivadar's(sp) Crusade are great, but they can recover.A couple of E. Plagues makes it so no Goblin hits the table. Hell even 1 plague hurts them bad.

[Bryant Cook]

This thread was locked and dead for a while (After being let back into the LMF). I think I'm going to have rewrite and post a new one.

Back on topic:

@Geet:I really don't think that any version is greater then another version. The match-ups usally go to who draws the better cards and is 50/50.

The place that the Black version really shines is the card draw. You can keep up a good hand size while still filtering what cards you see. Dark Confidant(Bob) is just amazing, it's a walking cantrip that keeps on drawing you cards (Just ask Mr. Nightmare and Wastedlife how amazing they both splash Black in their builds for Bob).

I also feel that Black has the BEST Goblin match of all the Gro builds. Pyroclasm, and Trivadar's(sp) Crusade are great, but they can recover.A couple of E. Plagues makes it so no Goblin hits the table. Hell even 1 plague hurts them bad.
That's an arguement that you didn't defend. Pyroclasm is just as good if not better than engineered plague. 1 clasm often end's games, where as you need 2 E.Plagues. Also, pyroclasm is a more versatile card being used in many more match-up's than one.

[SuckerPunch]

16 cantrips is overkill. You don't want to spend most of the early game playing cantrips while your opponent fills the board with threats.

The deck only currently only has 9-10 disruption pieces, so on avg, you can only stop one of those threats from resolving early on. One of the best reasons to play the black version is to play duress, thus filling your graveyard while taking away the best card in your opponent hand. Because honestly, Ghastly Demise is a lot weaker than Swords. It can't do jack against Pikula (one of this decks worst matchups), it sometimes cant even stop a first turn lackey, it really seems pretty subpar, even when compared to something like Smother. And Confidant is awesome but isn't as good against combo as Mage is and also causes you to take even more damage, which makes it easier for goblins to kill you esp if you draw a Force of Will off it (ouch). And it's not like Black offers anything comparable to Mystic Enforcer either. So Duress is infact one of the best things black can add to this deck and also makes up for the lack of Mage.

So my configuration if I was running black would be...

either

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Duress

or

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Night's Whispers
4 Duress

Mental Note does the work of two cantrips, while Duress also fills your yard. So you usually reach threshold a bit quicker with this version than any version that plays no mental note, even if running 16 cantrips.

You up your disruption count while also disrupting your opponent.

Look at it this way.

You play cantrips to add a card to the grayeyard while drawing yourself a good card later on.

Why not instead play a card that adds a card to the graveyard while taking your opponent's very best card at the same time. It can nab stuff like Tormod's Crypt which is many times the difference between winning and losing.

It also lets you see if they have graveyard hate like Withered Wretch or Jotun Grunt and lets you know to save your forces for when they cast them.

[Citrus-God]

The reason it runs more cantrips because more cantrips make it easier to find answers and more threats, and also make it so Confidant doesnt hurt you as much as it's suppose to.

Running Duress Maindecked is terrible and situational. Run it if you field isnt filled with Goblins, I mean, that's the reason why I dont run it Maindecked.

[SuckerPunch]

"the reason it runs more cantrips because more cantrips make it easier to find answers"

but duress itself is an answer, one of the very best, most versatile, and most undercosted answers in the game. the difference is, where you wasted one turn searching for an answer, and another turn playing it, this way, you play the answer the first turn. that's one less turn you had to worry about that threat they cast.

each turn you spend playing a cantrip rather than disrupting your opponent is one more turn your opponent has to combo out or kill you. whereas, each duress you play is one more chance to take out hate like tormod's crypt that really hurts this deck.

I'll grant you that duress is bad against mono red goblins though, but that's about the only matchup where its bad. By that logic, you shouldn't run Ghastly demise either since its completely worthless against pikula, red death and sui black. Also most of the newer and better goblins decks splash a color and bring in cards like Swords which make exceptional duress targets.

If you're playing in a meta where goblins is prevalent, you really shouldn't be playing ugb thres over ugr/ugw thres in the first place. Confidant and Night's Whispers both hurt you in the matchup. And black loses Mystic Enforcer, one of the biggest aspects in beating goblins esp when the ground battle reaches a stalemate.

As an aside, if fear of mono red goblins is the main reason for not wanting to run duress, why not cabal therapy. A good player can almost always hit with cabal therapy. You can take out Warchiefs and other nasty goblins easily. And if your life's low, you can sac Confidant to flash it back.

[Citrus-God]

Yeah... but what I'm worried about are the quality of my draws for the next few turns...

[URABAHN]

16 cantrips is overkill. You don't want to spend most of the early game playing cantrips while your opponent fills the board with threats.

What deck in the current Legacy format is going to fill the board with threats while you spend the early game playing cantrips? Angel Stompy? Red Death? I'd really like to know what you had in mind that will just run all over Gro's face while they spend the first few turns building Thresh.

[SuckerPunch]

Both of your own examples work well as do others. Both Angel Stompy and Red Death are competitive challengers to Thres that can give Thres a very hard time, and if think Thres just rolls over them, you're mistaken. And in both cases, duressing away Angel Stompy's equipment, or duressing away Red Death's Sinkhole, or Hymn or Duress, help you immensely.

[URABAHN]

Thresh is the favorite vs. Angel Stompy and Red Death. How in the world is Duress going to help you in those matchups instead of a cantrip? Maybe you take an equipment away from Angel Stompy or a Parallax Wave, that's not going to dramatically improve your winning %. Maybe you nab a Hymn or a Sinkhole, that's not going to dramatically improve your winning %.

Even still, how does Duress prevent, as you put it, your opponent from filling the board with threats? Counterspell, Force of Will, and Daze do a fine job of stopping your opponent's early threats. I don't see how a tiny bit of disruption in Duress is any good in the maindeck over a cantrip which will increase your card quality, build threshold, and draw you cards.

[SuckerPunch]

Your cantrips add a card to your graveyard and increase your card quality, but they almost never provide much real card advantage. And they most importantly, do this at the expense of taking up one of your early turns. Instead of playing threats or disrupting your opponent, you spend that turn playing a cantrip to made your opening hand look nicer. Duress by comparison decreases your opponent's card quality, while adding to your graveyard. IMHO, decreasing your opponent's card quality is more powerful and you clearly disagree. So I guess that's pretty much what this whole debate boils down to. I'm by no means saying or even suggesting that cantrips are bad. Just that a 1cc card that fills the graveyard while also taking your opponent's best threat is better, even if it doesn't cantrip.

Angel Stompy is most certainly not a favorable matchup for thres. At best, it's about even, so a little push doesn't hurt. And I suspect that the lack of Mystic Enforcer hurts quite a bit in this particular build. Red Stompy is arguably favorable but that's quite debatable. There are many many games that Red Stompy just out right wins with either an early Hypnotic (which your ghastly demises are worthless against), Duress+Hymn, Sinkhole+Wasteland or Negator (once again, ghastly demise is no help here).

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean threats in the creatures sense of the word.

By threats, I include all cards that can severely hurt you. I consider Sinkhole, Hymn, equipment and Tormod's Crypt to be threats. These are all cards that if resolved can easily cost you the game. I have lost many games to an early Sinkhole or Hymn. Yes you run 4 Force of Wills 3 Dazes and 2 Counterspells.

That's 9 counters, 3 of which are easily played around, and 2 of which you rarely have the UU open to cast early on. If you think that's enough to ensure that game breaking cards like Sinkhole, Hymn and Crypt don't resolve, you're very mistaken. Duress not only gives you one more tool to deal with these cards, it also shows you their hand so you can determine when to optimally cast the rest of your countermagic, which is a huge bonus any way you look at it. Frankly I would rather Duress that Hymn so that I have my Force to stop their Hypnotic the next turn, rather than having to choose only one of those cards to stop. Cantrips only some of the time find you that second force when you need it, Duress makes it so that you don't need to look for that second Force. Duress in a lot of ways is Force of Will 5-8, with the added bonus of not costing you a blue card as well.

[quicksilver]

duress itself is an answer

Should I need to remind people that there are no wrong threats but there are wrong answers.

Duress gets substantially worse in the late game when compared with cantrips or counters. And since Thresh seldom has a very fast clock, mid and late game is something you have to consider.

[SuckerPunch]

like I said, as long as 4 of those 12 cantrips you do run in the duress/cabal therapy build are mental notes, you reach threshold even faster than the 16 cantrip non mental note builds that everyone else is posting. I know this because I actually ran 12 cantrip threshold with 4 notes for a little while. besides, you also have confidant to get you more of those cantrips.


Should I need to remind people that there are no wrong threats but there are wrong answers.

lol, that is more relevent to cards like humility against solidarity and such.

the statement is rarely meant for cards like force and cabal therapy/duress. when is duress the wrong answer? even the best goblins decks now splash a color and run things like swords. against most decks, it will hit a swords they were saving for your mystic enforcer or an equipment or something.

basically duress is dead once they've used up all the good cards in their hand. guess what, force, daze, counterspell are also usually dead in that same situation.

practically every sideboard now runs tormod's crypt. you won't always have a counterspell left to stop it.

i already suggested this but if you really dislike duress since it can't hit creatures, what about cabal therapy. if used properly, it can be game breaking. and you can even recur it by saccing a creature. it's also an out if confidant is in play and youre at low life.

but yeah urabahn, like you pmed me, i'm sick of talking about this too. so you guys just run what you want to.

as an aside, actually perhaps the best example of a wrong answer is ghastly demise versus pikula, already one of this deck's worst matchups by any account. that's 4 more dead cards while their scepter eats away your hand. ghastly demise is also dead after a tormod's crypt etc. Aren't there any better options, ones that're actually usable versus pikula and other decks. Perhaps smother or something.

[quicksilver]

when is duress the wrong answer


duress is dead once they've used up all the good cards in their hand.

Counters can stop cards ripped off the top, discard cannot.

Duress is the wrong answer if they have no non-creature spells in hand, if they have emptied their hand and are playing off the top of the deck, if the only duressable cards are irrelivant or week cards, or if you need to stop a threat. Duress is actually dead in many situations. And since you have litte way to gain card advantage, dead cards can really hurt your stratagy of trying to one for one everything your opponents play.

[SuckerPunch]

you're really selling duress short. daze is the wrong answer more often than duress. demise is the wrong answer more than duress. even force is the wrong answer when you don't have other blue cards. also therapy which I mentioned twice already does hit creatures, and is great with confidant. besides, it's not like you can't shuffle or scry away additional discard with your brainstorms when your opponent is in topdeck mode or something.

i honestly believe the 12 cantrip with 4 notes and 4 confidants is very strong, and the 16 cantrip method with 4 portent and 4 predict eats up too many slots and wastes too much of the early game. but let's move on. i really don't feel like going back and forth on this forever. i wanted to put the suggestion out there,

and i only defended it when you guys stated that duress or therapy are bad in this deck, which they most certainly are not. they are a perfectly viable strategy just like how night's whispers versus predict are both viable strategies, or how md worship vs pithing needle are both perfectly viable, 14 cantrips vs. 16 cantrips in the builds without the additional draw from confidant are both viable, all that matters is the meta and play preference. and anyone that claims that only one of those strategies is ever viable is flat out wrong.

but more importantly, are there any options other than ghastly demise. darkblast?, smother?, anything that's effective with pikula and decent against most things. i would atleast consider a 2/2 split between smother/demise and darkblast to improve the pikula matchup. darkblast helps recover from crypt and withered wretch too.

[Brushwagg]

Duress is bad for the main deck. I play this deck alot, and when I mean alot, I mean like almost every week. At the very most I would SB Duress if,and only if I where expecting a reasonable amount of combo. But this still has a very good game against combo, even though it doesn't run Meddling Mage. (Just a side note neither does the Red Version).

@Demise vs. STP: Yes STP is slightly better then Demise. Yes Demise is dead in a few match-ups so I've been also using Diabolic Edict in the main.

@Wastedlife:I'm not knocking on Pyroclasm, it's very good against Goblins. I was just stating that Goblins CAN recover from it and they have a harder time with Plague.

Here's my latest list:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Isalnd
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Forest/Sometimes Bayou so another green source is fetchable
1x Swamp

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Beast*

4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
3x Night's Whisper
4x Mental Note

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell

4x Ghastly Demise
2x Diabolic Edict

SB
3x Pithing Needle
3x Naturalize
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Phyrexian Furnace
3x Engineered Plague
3x Open Slots

*This is being tested it was a third Counterspell and the third Diabolic Edict. The reason I'm trying it out is Black or Blue don't have a Dragon/Enforcer, so I went with a 8/8 for 4 mana. Their are time though that I do want the Counter and Edicts in and other time I like the 8/8 body.

I've never liked Predict, to many times it's dead. That's why I went with Night's Whisper instead. While it is a sorcery I find that I can wait to cast it later because of Mental Note vs. The other 2 versions having to cast Predict to fill their yard. As for Portent, it's a graet card I just really don't have the room for it.


@Removal:I've tried alot of different removal spells. Here's what I've tested. (Take your pick)

Ghastly Demise:Seems to work the best. 1 CC, kills alot of stuff. Negative:It can't target Black creatures.

Diabolic Edict:I fell this is number 2 on the list. Can get rid of Pro-Black/Untargetables etc. Negative: Can also only get you a BOP.

Puterfy:Kills anything that can be targeted and can also kill Artifacts. Negative:Cost 3 mana 2 of which are different colors.

Smother:Can kill anything that can be targeted with a CC of 3 or lower and the can't regenerate. Probably the best option if you see alot of deck guy in your meta. Negative:Can't kill anything on the bigger side, which can be a problem.

Rend Flesh:Can kill anything that it can target, other then spirits. Negative:It cost 3.

Darkblast:I did run it for a while. Nice killing Lackey easy, but did little else. The -1/-1 never seemed to help out like I wanted it to. The dredge was nice sometimes, but rarely needed.

Others I've considered that I didn't test and the reason(s) i didn't.

Vedetta:Can't target Black creatures and the Loss of life can get high.

Devour in Shadow:Doublr black CC, Loss of Life.

Chainer's Edict:Sorcery/FB is nice but not at that price.

[Muradin]

As the black version lacks any good finisher and you rather don't want to play too many high cc cards but about 16 cantrips I simply suppose Quirion Dryad.
I think the dryad is best in the black version, because it grows very fast in it and really shines post boarding because she is not dependant on ********.

[Brushwagg]

The thing about Dryad is it changes how you play the deck. You have to keep playing cards to get it big. Theshold creatures are better though.

I really would like to know what people think of Krosan Beast though. Yay or Nay?

[Lego]

Krosan Beast. Yay or Nay?

He seems bad as a finisher because he has no evasion, and is absolutely horrid without Threshold. At least Mongoose is still untargettable, and Werebear is an expensive Llanowar Elves. The Beast just seems bad (although I've never tested him.)

If you're looking for another Threshold creature, I ran Seton's Scout with some success in black thresh. He's no Werebear, but his ability occasionally comes in useful, and he beats for the same. Dying to Lightning Bolt makes me a sad panda, but it was rarely relevant.

[Brushwagg]

Ya I'll admit it sucks before threshold, but I really never drop him without it. As far an evasion, he's 8/8 and 8/8s kill alot of stuff. I find that people tend to block the bigger stuff and let Bears and Goose through.

[Moby Dick]

Here's my list, I went 4-0 with it in my local 1.5 tournamet yesterday.

4x goose
4x werebear
3x confidant
2x possesed aven

4x brainstorm
4x serum visions
3x ghastly demise
2x darkblast
1x diabolic edict

3x phyrexian furnace

4x FoW
4x daze
4x counterspell

4x trop
4x sea
4x delta
3x strand
2x island
1x swamp

SB
3x needle
3x e.plague
3x duress
2x wretch
2x edict
2x naturalize

MD phyrexian furnace is TECH, it cantrips, so its never a dead card.

round 1: vs Loamatog
game one i had a first turn furnace, but other than that nothing to good, i didn't know he was playing tog and had to pop furnace to draw into a counterspell, i lost game one after he resolve a tog. games 2 and three went the same, i dropped furry woodland critters and protected them.

round 2: vs Ravager Affinity
he wasn't a really good player, so I just won after darkblasting abuch of dorks and winning the creature war.

round 3: vs Mono Red Sligh
game one i won at 2 life because he topdecked 2 mountans in a row when i had 7 power on the table, lost game 2, game three i got lucky again and won at 3 life.

round 4: vs time rifter (basicly rifter with timesifter combo, its cool and randomly take 20 turns in a row)
i won games 1 & 2 because i counter everything that can hurt me (3 spells?)


none of the really good players/decks showed up but i think i would have beat the UGw thresh player, and have overall good matchups.

what i fear most is sligh/burn, I'm thinking about sbing chills

[kicks_422]

Comparing this deck to the other splashes of Thresh, I can claim that one of the reasons this deck is being held back compared to the other two is the lack of a solid removal spell... White has StP, Red has burn, and Black has only Ghastly Demise/Diabolic Edict... Thus the birth of 4C Thresh, sacrifing manabase stability for getting to pair Dark Confidant with solid removal...

I have a somewhat unconventional list of UGB Thresh that has 4 Stifles and 4 Edicts MD, with my reasoning as Stifles to replace Mages in Storm-combo match-ups (as well as be a very useful tool against almost every match-up) and Edicts as I usually only allow one creature to resolve (usually...)

Edicts have been a boon in the Thresh mirror (Mongeese and Enforcers), but I have found that with the superior card draw of the deck, that's not a real problem... If Time Spiral brings us a solid removal spell for black (1-2cc of course, and no suspend!), I believe UGB Thresh might rise in the standings, as it has superior draw than its other 3-color cousins, and a very versatile SB (Duress, Plague, etc.)

[Brushwagg]

The true reason that UGB is not in the LMF is that it's not heavly played (That's one of the rules of the LMF). But it did t8 at Kadi's first D4Ds and I have made numerous finals in my local meta with it.

I also hope that Time Spiral gives a little love to this deck. But if you are unhappy with Ghastly Demise, then you can also try out Smother. It's probably the best replacement for it right now.

@Stifle:I'm not sure about main deck. Unless your meta is totally combo. Even then I probably would go with extra Counterspells.

[Citrus-God]

Diabolic Edict is ran in Threshold heavy metagames.

Smother is ran in Red Deck Win heavy metagames.

Ghastly Demise is ran in unknown and Goblin heavy metagames.

Stifles I have played with numerous times. I sometimes end up in a meta infested with Goblin Heavy and Combo heavy fields. Stifle not only hits combo, but Goblins as well. It can Stifle Wastelands/Ports to protect your Engineered Plague, or a Ringleader/Matron/Siege Gang trigger.


As for my list...


// IcBE ThreshGro
// Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
3 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle (Metagame slot, usually Pernicious Deed if Stifle isnt needed.)
4 Ghastly Demise


// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Naturalize
3 Diabolic Edict

[Brushwagg]

Smother is ran in Red Deck Win heavy metagames.

This still gets played??

I really haven't missed Stifle at all. Needle takes care of everything I worry about. IE:Wastland, Cypt etc... Like I said I would only MD or board it if I saw alot of Solidarity or Iggy Pop in my meta(which is down right now GOD DAMN IT!!!!!).

[Citrus-God]

This still gets played??

I really haven't missed Stifle at all. Needle takes care of everything I worry about. IE:Wastland, Cypt etc... Like I said I would only MD or board it if I saw alot of Solidarity or Iggy Pop in my meta(which is down right now GOD DAMN IT!!!!!).

Dont forget Vial. You can cut Needle off and go MUC + Turbo Xerox and Ophidian. Stifle is okay. That's usually my metagame slot.

No... I lied. But does Boros Deck Wins count? It used to be semi-big. It's still a good deck, but it's so weak sometimes.

[Brushwagg]

Well I just got done scanning over the Time Spiral spoiler, and I didn't see anything to help the removal slot :( . I'm currently printing it out and I might find something that pops up, but I doubt it. Anyone else look at it at, and if so has anything popped up that could be used?