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Thehunter820
02-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Eh I'm helping out a friend, with his deck, thought i'd get your guys' opinions on things, so umm the point of the deck is just to swing at them with creatures while getting rid of their hand, may take out some discard for more removal.

Lands x20
Swamp x13
Polluted Delta x4
Cabal Coffers x3

Creatures x13
Mirri the Cursed x2
Ravenous Rats x2
Nantuko Shade x4
Phyrexian Negator x2
Hypnotic Specter x3

Spells x27
Dash Hopes x3
Hymn to Tourach x3
Duress x3
Thoughtseize x3
Dark Ritual x3
Terror x4
Chainer's Edict x3
Diabolic Edict x3
Umezawa's Jitte x2

Brehn
02-21-2008, 01:09 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451

Internet Hate Machine
02-21-2008, 01:17 PM
For reference, here are the cards that I think are just plain bad and should definately not have a home in this deck.

Lands x20
Swamp x13
Polluted Delta x4
Cabal Coffers x3

Creatures x13
Mirri the Cursed x2 - bad
Ravenous Rats x2 - bad
Nantuko Shade x4
Phyrexian Negator x2
Hypnotic Specter x3

Spells x27
Dash Hopes x3 - bad... very, very bad.
Hymn to Tourach x3
Duress x3
Thoughtseize x3
Dark Ritual x3 -not entirely sure if it is really needed in a deck trying to play control.
Terror x4 -not great, probably better as ghastly demise.
Chainer's Edict x3
Diabolic Edict x3
Umezawa's Jitte x2

Ultimately cut back threats and add alot more creature kill and hand disruption, thoughtseize and hymm should be auto four ofs.

EDIT: Also, I would cut down the number of non-targeted removal (edicts), six seems a little too much, but to that point I am not really sure.

Internet Hate Machine
02-21-2008, 01:19 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451

I wouldn't call suicide black a control deck per say.

Dilettante
02-21-2008, 01:28 PM
When playing control, cards to consider:

Nether Void: With a Hyppie pounding, you win, but there is the cost factor...

Phyrexian Totem: Might be better than Negator, to avoid random top-deck pains. You use relatively low mana anyway...

Shriekmaw: Instead of Terror?

Funeral Charm: At least in sideboard... Instant-speed discard and a Lackey slayer in one.

mujadaddy
02-21-2008, 01:32 PM
Shriekmaw: Instead of Terror?

Almost ALWAYS. Instant-speed is the ONLY mitigating factor for Terror.

Cavius The Great
02-21-2008, 01:36 PM
Almost ALWAYS. Instant-speed is the ONLY mitigating factor for Terror.

Isn't Smother a million times better than Terror?

mujadaddy
02-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Isn't Smother a million times better than Terror?

Only in perception, and only since 'Goyf.

Cavius The Great
02-21-2008, 02:21 PM
Only in perception, and only since 'Goyf.

Terror kills Goyf... :rolleyes: I think Smother is better becuase it can hit Tog and Negator as well as other popular black creatures. Killing Goyf, yes, is important, but being versatile is, as well.

And Ghastly Demise is just bad with only 4 fetches.

Brehn
02-21-2008, 02:36 PM
I wouldn't call suicide black a control deck per say.

I wouldn't call a deck with Phyrexian Negator, Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Dark Ritual and Jitte a control deck per say.

Dilettante
02-21-2008, 02:45 PM
They each have their uses, depending on your meta... What one kills over the other...

Shriekmaw/Terror
Rakdos Pit-Dragon
Arc-slogger
Sower of Temptation
Exalted Angel
Gathan Raiders
Auriok Salvagers
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Siege-Gang Commander
Ravenous Baloth

Smother
Psychatog
Arcbound Ravager
Nantuko Shade
Dark Confidant
Phyrexian Negator
Hypnotic Specter
Withered Wretch
Mishra's Factory
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Chimeric Idol

Sanguine Voyeur
02-21-2008, 04:35 PM
At five, Shriekmaw is better against Counterbalance decks. Target removal is, however, limited against Threshold. They oft play Mongooses, Mystic Enforcers, and occasionally Tombstalkers. Neither Smother nor Shriekmaw can target any of those.

Dilettante
02-21-2008, 04:38 PM
At five, Shriekmaw is better against Counterbalance decks. Target removal is, however, limited against Threshold. They oft play Mongooses, Mystic Enforcers, and occasionally Tombstalkers. Neither Smother nor Shriekmaw can target any of those.

Yep... but you run 4 Shriekmaws, they run 4 Tarmogoyfs. Parity.

Nihil Credo
02-21-2008, 04:44 PM
A few more factors to consider:

1) They have card drawing. You don't.
2) You can also deal with Tarmogoyf through discard.
3) Shriekmaw can leave behind a 3/2 Fear dude that trades or races Mongoose (your choice).

FoolofaTook
02-21-2008, 04:48 PM
Yep... but you run 4 Shriekmaws, they run 4 Tarmogoyfs. Parity.

Yep, it's a point/counterpoint. Tarmogoyf/Force of Will vs Shriekmaw/Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy/Extirpate is the answer vs Mongoose and Tombstalker, but you must have some other form of removal in the deck to avoid auto-losses to Tombstalker in particular.

Internet Hate Machine
02-21-2008, 08:02 PM
I wouldn't call a deck with Phyrexian Negator, Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Dark Ritual and Jitte a control deck per say.

Yes but the topic was "black control" hence I suggest cutting creatures for more control. If you cut back creatures its only sensible to cut jitte as well, at least in my opinion.

Internet Hate Machine
02-21-2008, 08:19 PM
And Ghastly Demise is just bad with only 4 fetches.

When most of the deck is black instant based control do you really expect to have nothing in the yard? I mean we are talking what, probably 12 discard? Then you probably want a pretty heavy removal suite mandeck, I think ghastly demise could work well along side all those other instants. Either way you go, it still doesn't change the fact that there should ALWAYS be a better choice than terror. Also, where are the sinkholes and/or wastelands?

Also, I suggest Haunting Echoes as an additional win condition to creatures. Rape their hand/land/creatures and then cast echoes for the win?

Cavius The Great
02-21-2008, 08:57 PM
When most of the deck is black instant based control do you really expect to have nothing in the yard? I mean we are talking what, probably 12 discard? Then you probably want a pretty heavy removal suite mandeck, I think ghastly demise could work well along side all those other instants. Either way you go, it still doesn't change the fact that there should ALWAYS be a better choice than terror. Also, where are the sinkholes and/or wastelands?

Also, I suggest Haunting Echoes as an additional win condition to creatures. Rape their hand/land/creatures and then cast echoes for the win?

Ghastly Demise are only relevent for first turn lackeys. A first turn lackey followed by a first turn discard spell with no ritual, spells "oops I lose". And please stop double posting. Use the goddamn edit button.

Internet Hate Machine
02-21-2008, 09:11 PM
Ghastly Demise are only relevent for first turn lackeys. A first turn lackey followed by a first turn discard spell with no ritual, spells "oops I lose". And please stop double posting. Use the goddamn edit button.

I have to disagree. Ghastly demise is still a removal spell for only :b:. I really have some trouble believing it would be played at all if its ONLY relevance in the entire format is goblin lackey.

GiantGrowth
02-21-2008, 09:12 PM
Ghastly Demise are only relevent for first turn lackeys. A first turn lackey followed by a first turn discard spell with no ritual, spells "oops I lose". And please stop double posting. Use the goddamn edit button.

I think its a bit far to say that the only possible use for demise is 1st turn lackeys. mid-game, it's just more efficient than terror. How many times do you think he would have the demise in his hand and say, jeeze I wish this was a terror? even if the answer is too many, I think defending that warrants testing. Thats not even including the fact that thats not the only removal spot that would be in the deck, there is plenty of room for less situational cards, but for one mana I think the situationality is worth it.

Cavius The Great
02-21-2008, 09:21 PM
I have to disagree. Ghastly demise is still a removal spell for only :b:. I really have some trouble believing it would be played at all if its ONLY relevance in the entire format is goblin lackey.

I hate to burst your bubble there buddy, but people include Ghastly Demise in their decks with 6-8 fetches just to combat Lackey. Every competitive deck should have a first turn answer to Goblin Lackey. It's as simple as that. And if it's not maindecked then it's included in the SB. The fact still stands regardless.

Thehunter820
02-21-2008, 11:26 PM
He's read your revisions, and would like to know what you think about this deck

Lands x20
Swamp x13
Polluted Delta x4
Cabal Coffers x3

Creatures x8
Nantuko Shade x4
Hypnotic Specter x4

Spells x30
Phyrexian Totem x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Duress x4
Thoughtseize x4
Terror x4
Chainer's Edict x4
Diabolic Edict x2
Smother x3
Ghastly Demise x3
Distress x2

Sanguine Voyeur
02-21-2008, 11:45 PM
The first thing that sticks out is the Distress. Two mana for a single card seems weak when you're already running Duress, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. If you need the discard, Cabal Therapy should fit. If you want something else, Consume Spirit is a good place to spend Coffers mana. If you want card draw, you can use Staff of Domination or Phyrexian Arena.

You also might want more sweepers if you plan on winning against Goblins.

f|i[p]
02-21-2008, 11:59 PM
This list could work, although it was made by AgentJ it does work like MBC and it was at the trainwreck thread. It is monoblack. if you don't like the style, you can use it as reference.

18 Swamp
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Unholy Grotto

Creatures:
1 Undead Gladiator
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
2 Helldozer

Other:
4 Damnation
3 Staff of Domination
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Smother
2 Consume Spirit

// Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Decree of Pain
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

FoolofaTook
02-22-2008, 12:47 AM
Ghastly Demise are only relevent for first turn lackeys. A first turn lackey followed by a first turn discard spell with no ritual, spells "oops I lose". And please stop double posting. Use the goddamn edit button.

Not that I'd recommend building a deck around the concept but Ghastly Demise and Street Wraith is a very nice answer to Goblin Lackey on turn 1.

mercenarybdu
02-22-2008, 03:13 AM
The plan is alright but about 1/5 of the deck is very bad or needs a lot of improvements. I won't tell ya much as I have no clue of your current budget situation.

Dilettante
02-22-2008, 07:05 AM
I... just don't see much benefit to Coffers. You have no additional draw mechanisms, so you are going to be running Swamp Lite. It's a fairly dead land until you get your third swamp... so... you're better off just drawing swamps. Just keep your curve low and have a lockdown mechanism... I'm not sure about your budget situation, but... try looking up existing Pox archtypes. You need something that gives you at least a soft-lock, like Nether Void... something that buys you time to commit resources to attacking rather than being defensive. Here's a possible modified list, but it utilizes Nether Void and Sinkhole (approx $120 for Italian Nether Voids and $70 for Sinkholes).

Lands x20
Swamp x16
Polluted Delta x2
Bloodstained Mire x2

Creatures x12
Hypnotic Specter x4
Shriekmaw x4
Nantuko Shade x4

Spells x28
Chrome Mox x4
Phyrexian Totem x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Duress x3
Thoughtseize x3
Diabolic Edict x4
Nether Void x4
Sinkhole x4

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Infest

Elfrago
02-22-2008, 07:47 AM
Look up for the Helldozer thread. There are some very good lists there, and with minor changes you can turn them to mono-black.

Thehunter820
02-22-2008, 12:29 PM
Lands x20
Swamp x14
Polluted Delta x4
Cabal Coffers x2

Creatures x8
Nantuko Shade x4
Hypnotic Specter x4

Spells x32
Phyrexian Totem x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Duress x4
Thoughtseize x4
Terror x3
Diabolic Edict x4
Smother x2
Ghastly Demise x3
Infest x4
Phyrexian Arena x2

He also wonders if Dark Confidant should be placed in here, and what about putting in like consume spirit for the cabal coffers?

Dilettante
02-22-2008, 12:45 PM
Lands x20
Swamp x14
Polluted Delta x4
Cabal Coffers x2

Creatures x8
Nantuko Shade x4
Hypnotic Specter x4

Spells x32
Phyrexian Totem x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Duress x4
Thoughtseize x4
Terror x3
Diabolic Edict x4
Smother x2
Ghastly Demise x3
Infest x4
Phyrexian Arena x2

He also wonders if Dark Confidant should be placed in here, and what about putting in like consume spirit for the cabal coffers?


Putting in Confidant immediately puts you in a more aggressive position... Your deck would no longer be attempting control. If you plan on running coffers, you'd have to be running a lot more land, but considering how low your mana curve is, do you really need the mana it provides after 3 with no additional drawing mechanism? P.S. Maindeck Infest is bad for you. It is counterintuitive with your Shades and Hyppies. Granted, you can go the mostly creatureless approach and only use the Phyrexian totems whilst putting in more control, but you definitely need something that locks your opponent out. You just have a lot of 'win more' cards instead of 'win'. And you have a TON of cards that are completely dead if your opponent is creatureless. Nether Void is one card that can do such. There are others, like Meekstone (can work for you with a few modifications) that are more situational, but less sweeping. There is relying on Aether Vial and then doing a more LD-based build with Wastelands/Sinkholes/Smallpox. Right now, your deck will lose to topdecks. You have a lot of front-end gas, but little behind it. Either put in a stop-gate or let the floodgates loose, but just don't stand there and let it flow.