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Land
02-27-2008, 02:43 PM
I've been seeing this style of deck around MWS a lot recently. It is the same style I have personally been working on for almost a year now and appears to be gaining in favor. We also had another guy locally starting to run this style of deck as well.

First, a little background information:
This deck is a combination of strategies from multiple other Pox based decks as well as black control decks. It is designed to be the antithesis of blue based control decks and also fairs well against most combo decks. It's play style is comparable to most attrition style decks; remove anything that hits the board, discard their hand and then play a mid-game stompy to finish them off.

Here is a decklist that I currently run:

Attrition [23]:
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Small Pox
4x Vindicate

Acceleration [4]:
4x Dark Ritual

Recovery [3]:
3x Crucible of the Worlds

Threats [9]:
4x Jotun Grunt
3x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Exalted Angel

Land [21]:
4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Wasteland
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard [15] (meta-game dependent):
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ghostly Prison
2x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Circle of Protection: Red


Card Choices and Interactions:

Attrition:
This part of the deck is all about proactive and reactive removal. It can consist of any combination of the cards below, just work out the numbers that work best for you and your meta.

Sinkhole - Basic Land destruction, general land removal and tempo generator. Set your opponent back a turn and in some cases lock him out of part of his deck by removing a source of color completely.

Hymn to Tourach - Proactive removal and tempo generator. Most decks hate to have a random amount of critical cards removed before they get a chance to play them. With acceleration such as Dark Ritual combined with Thoughtseize or Duress you can come out turn 1 with a nice power play. My personal favorite is to Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Hymn to Tourach -> Toughtseize. This play allows you to be immune to turn 2 Wasteland, remove possibly up to two critical cards and then remove a generally guaranteed critical card afterwards.

Small Pox - Reactive removal and tempo generator. The loss of 1 life is not near as important as the loss of a creature and land. Mid to late game this can be used to force your opponent to topdeck the answer as well by keeping his hand and board empty while you beat down with a stompy creature.

Thoughtseize/Duress - Proactive removal and tempo generator. The use of Thoughtseize over Duress in this particular style of deck is preferred mainly because there is life gain present maindeck. In decks with little or no life gain, Duress may be a preferred choice, but keep in mind that you cannot remove creatures with it and an aggro heavy meta will prove troublesome at times.

Swords to Plowshares - Reactive removal. This is the ultimate in creature removal. No Tarmogoyf pumping, no recursion, no indestructible. The drawback is mainly that this generates some life gain for your opponent and can set you back tempo wise sometimes. Also keep in mind that this can be used for your own life gain in the event you are in a tough bind.

Krosan Grip - Reactive removal and tempo generator. Nothing says "No" like Krosan Grip when concerning artifacts and enchantments. Counter/Top crumbles, Tormod's Crypt, Pernicious Deed, you name it. If they think they are going to active, they are wrong. The extra 1 mana is definately worth the game saving ability that it provides.

Disenchant/Naturalize - Reactive removal and tempo generator. Not quite as powerful as Krosan Grip, but will do the job in most cases when you run a tight mana curve.

Vindicate - Reactive removal. Although being a 3 cast can sometimes set you back a turn, having the ability to target whatever is strongest on their board is worth the trade-off. Light curve decks should consider only 3 of these.

Wasteland - Land destruction, reactive removal, lock and tempo generator. What more can I say? Wasteland + recursion = Wastelock. In a format so heavy with non-basic lands, a single Wasteland with a Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam can quickly end the game for your opponent.


Acceleration:
The ability to generate turn 1 power plays and immunity to Wastelock are the main focus of this portion of the deck.

Dark Ritual - Power out a Hymn to Tourach + Thoughtseize on turn 1 or a Small Pox + Thoughtseize on turn 2. Either way your opponent is probably going to wish they had made different choices for their play, or be generally frustrated that you just removed the key components of their God hand.

Mox Diamond - Coupled with land recursion, Mox Diamond is one of the main ways to get around moon effects like Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon. It helps with turn 1/2 plays as a tempo generator and also provides a way to bypass Wastelock. Generally a 3-of is sufficient for most decks.

Chrome Mox - Not quite as powerful as Mox Diamond imho, but it can serve its purpose as well. This does set you back tempo wise in a lot of cases though and losing the card to it RFG style you may regret later.


Recovery:
With all the board destruction the ability to recover from losses and keep going is highly recommended.

Crucible of Worlds - Wastelock, reusable fetch lands, Small Pox recovery and a draw engine when combined with Horizon Canopy. The only downfall is that this recovery is easier to target than loam, but it does utilize less mana over the long term.

Life from the Loam - Wastelock, Dredge, reusable fetchlands, Small Pox recovery and a draw engine with a combined Barren Moor. Life from the Loam can work very well if your creatures recur as well, but synergizes poorly with the attrition portion of the deck. However, loam is a bit harder to stop than crucible.

Jotun Grunt - A threat, recursion engine, and gravehate all rolled into one. This guy is the antithesis of Tarmogoyf, helps to refill your deck with attrition and provides a decent beat for 2 or 3 turns for only 2 mana.


Threats:
Devoted to the killing of your opponent. These are generally played mid to late game and are the overall win condition.

Loxodon Hierarch - Life gain and 4/4 are what he's all about. Adding the ability to recover life loss allows you to add a little more of a buffer and handle long games better. Thoughtseize is easier to run as well. The main drawback is that he does not auto-recur and thus is not favorable with Life from the Loam.

Exalted Angel - Turn 3 drop, 4/5 flying with a built in Spirit Link. This girl causes most opponents to tremble with its enormous life gain and flying damage. Removal or Tombstalker are generally your opponent's only options.

Undead Gladiator - Draw engine and 3/1 recursion are the main benefits of this guy. His damage is a bit lower than other threats but his synergy with Life from the Loam is excellent.

Nether Spirit - Chump blocking 2/2 with an auto-recur. If played properly, this guy can chump most creatures all day and has no drawback in combination with bombs and pox effects. Graveyard management is key, but he does synergize fairly well with Life from the Loam.

Tarmogoyf - In a deck with graveyards getting filled fast, this guy generally comes out pretty strong early or mid game. The main drawback is that he is a target of a lot of hate in a format where many tier decks run him as a 4-of. He does synergize well with Life from the Loam though.

Tombstalker - Mainly used in non-recursion style decks, his 5/5 flying and early game drop are dominant in formats with slower play. He exists outside of the range of Pernicious Deed, Smother and most other red and black removal options. He also may help with powering down an opponent's Tarmogoyf by removing pumping components.

Doran, the Siege Tower - He powers up your Tarmogoyf a little and greatly helps your match versus Goblins. He doesn't do much more than that other than being a 3 drop 5/5.


Bombs:
Board wiping destruction, eliminating mobs and troublesome cards.

Pernicious Deed - Generally a 2-turn bomb, this is the ultimate in surgical board wiping. The mana cost can be pretty hefty at times though.

Nevinyyral's Disk - Pretty much the only reaction to a moon effect on the table. This is also a 2-turn bomb but provides more destruction to mana cost.

Engineered Explosives - Great Chalice of the Void destruction, a chalice for 2 can wreck this deck. Usually this is a 1-turn bomb but doesn't hit much.

Powder Keg - Limited targets and multi-turn activation beyond 2-turns are a great detriment with this bomb, but it does cost 2 and can be effective in decks with a tight curve.


Matchup Analysis:

Vial Goblins - Non-favorable to 50/50. Ghostly Prison is key in this matchup. Hope you packed Thoughtseize, Vindicate and Swords to Plowshares. Circle of Protection: Red can help but only if you can hold their creature count down.

Threshold - Favorable. Wreck their hand, land and creatures. Krosan Grip their Counter/Top and then pummel them with your threats. Generally, 4/4 and stronger threats are preferred as thresh has been known to pull out wins late game after slowly working out of a lock.

Cephalid Breakfast - Favorable. Open up with Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize and Duress and you will probably fair well. Any gravehate postboard is going to cause problems for them.

Belcher - 50/50. If they go off on turn 1 you can hang it up, otherwise destroy their hand and keep their mana off the table. Krosan Grip, Serenity and Vindicate are your friends.

TES/SI - 50/50. Basically a replay of Belcher with a different color. Just try to win the roll and have a solid power play on turn 1.

Suicide Black - Favorable to 50/50. You should generally win this game unless they have a strong turn 1/turn 2 play that you cannot counter. Don't keep bad opening hands but don't mulligan past 5 or you are giving them a great advantage.

Gro/NQG/Psychatog - Favorable. Not many threats and susceptibility to Wastelock cause these opponents to fall short in this matchup.

Dragon Stompy - Non-favorable. The moon effect will probably wreck you. This deck is almost the antithesis of black multicolor based attrition decks. Mox Diamond, Nevinyyral's Disk and Chrome Mox are about your only defense.

mujadaddy
02-27-2008, 02:50 PM
1. This should go in New & Developmental, not Established.

2.
My personal favorite is to Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Hymn to Tourach -> Toughtseize.
This is wrong. Play Thoughtseize first -- get his best card -- THEN Hymn to get something random, including possibly lands.

PhanTom_lt
02-27-2008, 03:03 PM
All those card choice explanations and yet they aren't in the deck? Then why bother?

I don't see why should you play Crucible, no manlands, and it seems weak only for fetches and wastes.


Just try to win the roll
Good advice vs. Combo.

Land
02-27-2008, 06:10 PM
1. This should go in New & Developmental, not Established.

Originally I agreed with you, but then I was corrected by a few others in that the deck has been around for a while and in the BG Pox thread there was a BWG control deck posted that placed top 8 at a major tournament.



2.
This is wrong. Play Thoughtseize first -- get his best card -- THEN Hymn to get something random, including possibly lands.

First I would like to say, if you're going to make such a definitive statement, do your math. Here is my math:

Hymn to Tourach -> Thoughtseize
(2/7 + 1/3) / 2 =
(28.57% + 33.33%) / 2 = 30.95%

Thoughtseize -> Hymn to Tourach
(1/6 + 1/5) / 2 =
(16.67% + 20.00%) / 2 = 26.67%

As we can see with the proofs above, it is more advantageous to cast Hymn to Tourach first, then Thoughtseize given that there are 2 critical cards in their opening hand and they have a 7 card hand.

Land
02-27-2008, 06:14 PM
All those card choice explanations and yet they aren't in the deck? Then why bother?

The card choices explained are metagame decisions and also cards tested in the past or run in the past by other decks of this style. Some of them are there because others have argued whether they should exist or not and I have put the clearest answer I can ascertain given the information until otherwise corrected.



I don't see why should you play Crucible, no manlands, and it seems weak only for fetches and wastes.


Normally I would agree with you, but I have run manlands in the past and the manabase is too unstable with them. If you are going to run manlands you will need to drop the Wastelands in favor of something like Mishra's Factory or remove a color from the deck. This will, however, take away the ability to Wastelock your opponent, which imho is more important in the general Legacy meta.

xsockmonkeyx
02-27-2008, 06:46 PM
First I would like to say, if you're going to make such a definitive statement, do your math. Here is my math:

Hymn to Tourach -> Thoughtseize
(2/7 + 1/3) / 2 =
(28.57% + 33.33%) / 2 = 30.95%

Thoughtseize -> Hymn to Tourach
(1/6 + 1/5) / 2 =
(16.67% + 20.00%) / 2 = 26.67%

As we can see with the proofs above, it is more advantageous to cast Hymn to Tourach first, then Thoughtseize given that there are 2 critical cards in their opening hand and they have a 7 card hand.

Interesting, however this doesnt take into consideration the fact that Thoughtseize doesnt hit lands. Is there a way to factor this in?

mujadaddy
02-27-2008, 07:13 PM
Originally I agreed with you, but then I was corrected by a few others in that the deck has been around for a while and in the BG Pox thread there was a BWG control deck posted that placed top 8 at a major tournament.Ok then.




First I would like to say, if you're going to make such a definitive statement, do your math. Here is my math:

Hymn to Tourach -> Thoughtseize
(2/7 + 1/3) / 2 =
(28.57% + 33.33%) / 2 = 30.95%

Thoughtseize -> Hymn to Tourach
(1/6 + 1/5) / 2 =
(16.67% + 20.00%) / 2 = 26.67%

As we can see with the proofs above, it is more advantageous to cast Hymn to Tourach first, then Thoughtseize given that there are 2 critical cards in their opening hand and they have a 7 card hand.PROOFS? Lawlz. What was proven? The fact that Two-and-only-two critical cards stand a FIVE percent better chance of being hit with Hymn-then-'seize? Super. What about FOUR critical cards? What if some of them are situational (ie, higher mana cost)? Your "proof" proved nothing.

THIS, while not a proof, is a real-world scenario:

Thoughtseize first:
1. "Oh, look, a bunch of lands and a Force of Will. I take the Force. Now I randomly take 2 of the rest with the Hymn."
OR
2. "A Vial, a Lackey, three mountains, and two Seige-Gang Commanders. I take the Lackey. Now I randomly take 2 of the rest with the Hymn."

Hymn first:
1. "Oh, uh, I take two COMPLETELY RANDOM cards (takes a land and a Force). Now I Thoughtseize. Crap. Nothing left but lands. Crap. That was a waste."
OR
2. "Hymn takes two mountains, rockin'! ...Uh oh... Vial & Lackey. Crap, I guess I take Lackey..." (Gobz casts Vial & topdecks lackey next turn)...

Dude, play the way you want. Just take it from me that you want FIRST PICK before you go random.

xsockmonkeyx
02-27-2008, 07:21 PM
Hymn first:
1. "Oh, uh, I take two COMPLETELY RANDOM cards (takes a land and a Force). Now I Thoughtseize. Crap. Nothing left but lands. Crap. That was a waste."

Wait, they kept a hand of Force and 6 lands? :confused: Thats a pretty extreme example.

mujadaddy
02-27-2008, 07:28 PM
Wait, they kept a hand of Force and 6 lands? :confused: Thats a pretty extreme example.

Yeah, uh... Landstill or something? :tongue:

xsockmonkeyx
02-27-2008, 07:38 PM
OK, a Force and 6 Factories.

@Card choices: You said the fact that Life from the Loam doesn't help you with attrition wars was a negative. However, you mention later that Jotun Grunt beats for 2-3 turns as a positive. So my question is, if you are trying to win the attrition battle, then why is Jotun Grunt disappearing on you after 2-3 turns acceptable? Do you think the recursion Jotun Grunt does for you makes up for the fact that it kind of goes against your board strategy?

Land
02-27-2008, 10:13 PM
OK, a Force and 6 Factories.

@Card choices: You said the fact that Life from the Loam doesn't help you with attrition wars was a negative. However, you mention later that Jotun Grunt beats for 2-3 turns as a positive. So my question is, if you are trying to win the attrition battle, then why is Jotun Grunt disappearing on you after 2-3 turns acceptable? Do you think the recursion Jotun Grunt does for you makes up for the fact that it kind of goes against your board strategy?

You cannot recur the attrition with the exception of land based with only Life from the Loam. Wasteland was the only card listed under the attrition section that loam can recur. Jotun Grunt recurs your attrition, puts damage on the table, and hurts Tarmogoyf. Once the deck is not so heavily polluted with goyf decks I would probably consider goyfs in places of grunts. It's just too easy to use $8 to defeat $100 (given current pricing).