PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Going Rogue



idraleo
02-27-2008, 08:04 PM
Here is a simply copy\paste of the first reply i did on Suicide Black's thread on Estabilished decks Forum, i think that working on it the deck could improve itself on a while:

Wandering on Rogues, yesterday i builded this decklist, inspired by the recent Magic-League deck in standard, but after 10 games i get a streak of victory of 8 games, winning against Dredge, RW Goblin and Ugr\Ugw ********. Bitterblossom is a powerhouse against 3shold based, and it is overwhelming for opponent if there is an Oona's Blackguard in play,meaning that you probably will put on the field at least 2 or 3 2/2 Flyiers. Umezawa's Jitte is great in this deck, cause the deck has at least 12 creatures with Flying (with Bitterblossom) and 4 fear creatures. It is abLe to put a lot of damage in few turns, thanks to the combination of Blackguard, Stinkdrinker Bandit and the speed of ritual. Here's the decklist, the sideboard isn' t so good, i got to work on it for a while to provide something better....

// Lands
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
19 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [MOR] Oona's Blackguard
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [MOR] Prickly Boggart
4 [MOR] Stinkdrinker Bandit
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 4 [US] Contamination
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [MOR] Offalsnout
SB: 4 [10E] Dragon's Claw
SB: 2 [TE] Perish

Things to discuss:

-Manabase: the deck need few black colored mana, giving the possibility to run at least 3 wasteland on main. It is viable or the possibility to mulligan by having only a Wasteland in the opening hand is too relevant?
-Is Umezawa's Jitte the only tool we need to play on maindeck?
-Considering that Oona's Blackguard is an Hypnotic-like discarding tool, is necessary to run Cabal Therapy on maindeck?
-Does the deck need a splash? i think white for STp and/or Vindicate on maindeck, with Disenchant and Absolute Law or other tools on sb. Red give the possibiLity to run Reckless Charge and Bolts effect on main, and also gaves Terminate against manlands and Crusher\Terravore\Goyf, and artifact hate on sb. Is the blue or green splash viable too?


Match up noticed as far as today:
Goblin positive preside, negeative post side and preside when opponent have access (or play on main) to Pyrokinesis. Sharpshooter owns us if we don't have a fast BlasckGuard on board.
Uw Landstill: playable. Standstill and cointoss makes the differences.
BHWC or 4Color Landstill: Negative cause of Pernicious Deed, the only way to win is to get the right sweeper effect and avoid opponent's topdecks. Earwig Squad did his best in this Mu
Comboish: Positive against Solidarity, playable against TES and Iggy, unfavorable against Belcher and Cret Belcher.

Tacosnape
02-27-2008, 08:06 PM
The problem with this deck, as I've been working on it also, is that there isn't a way to play all the really awesome rogue cards without playing all the crappy ones as well.

Media314r8
02-27-2008, 08:41 PM
blue gives you looter il-kor, force of will, daze, and pestermite, which look a lot beter than some of the rogue-precons guys and disposable effects like dark rit, which is not as sexy if it doesn power out a turn 1 negator or sinhole/thoughtseize. Turn 1 rit blackguard, thoughtseize is a hand that probably loses to a bolt or fire/ice. Frogtosser seems out of place as unless you have it turn one, you will probably be hellbent most of the game, so his cost-reduction is irrel, and he doesn't have evasion.

Good concept, poor execution. Perhaps you could use chrome mox or mox diamond instead of the rits, as to have a permanent mana source. (since you only need 1B turn one, not 2B or 1BB)

Something like:

Rogue-Stompy

//'Lands'// (22)
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
2 island
2 swamp
4 wasteland
4 chrome mox

//Threats// (21)
4 Oona's blackguard
4 Oona's prowler
3 Bitterblossom
4 Looter Il-kor
3 Earwig Squad
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator (pitches to Force/mox, has evasion, and while not a rgoue, he's the only CA aside from the Oona's this deck can get)

//Spells// (17)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Jitte
3 Cabal Therapy

EDIT: Forgot Bitterblossom.

Michael Keller
02-27-2008, 09:53 PM
I think Bitterblossom should be exploited with cards like Smokestack, Braids, and Contamination. That could be fun.

insertnamehere
02-27-2008, 09:53 PM
I am currently testing an aggro version of this deck. The deck runs mostly Faerie's, so I am running Scion of Oona to protect my Faerie's. I am considering adding in a few counterspells into the side as a side option. Oh and Bitterblossom is good in the deck, but not as a four of.

Media314r8
02-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Testing went well, I beat a life deck 2-0, armageddon stacks 2-1, a random jank dec 2-0, and lost to goblins 0-2. Never saw jitte vs goblins, and 1st turn lackey hurts when my blockers can all be fanatic/incererator'd.

Media314r8
02-27-2008, 10:19 PM
Bitterblossom is good as a four of, and thats why brainstorm is so good, keep the extras when you have jitte, (and can take the pain) fetch em away when you dont. Blossom is key in the control matchup, and getting one to stick is tough, thus the importance of 4.

idraleo
02-28-2008, 05:35 AM
as splashing blue gives counters and cantrips, sure you will notice that the deck goes more times on mid-late game, then you'll need to play counterspells. A more consistent aggro strategy probably will be better, but i must admit that Frogtosser Banneret is the worst card i'm running by now. It is almost the times a 2cc haste creature, useless without a Blackguard on the field and it doesn't speed the deck. Probably i would run 3 copyes of a different Rogue , and then cut a maindeck Cabal Therapy and 1 Umezawa Jitte to play a removal, i think that Slaughter pact is valuable but probably Smother will be better with the deck strategy.

Sek'Kuar
02-29-2008, 11:59 AM
Maybe some evasion in the form of Infiltrator Il-Kor. It fits with the theme of rogue and adds some shadow to the deck which can be hard to deal with. The only problem is the 1 toughness...

rufus
02-29-2008, 12:09 PM
Does Dunerider Outlaw have a place in the 'goyf-heavy meta?

Have you considered Riptide Pilferer, Nezumi Graverobber, or Nezumi Shortfang?

Paperfin Rascal might be decent for you.

I had been thinking about some kind of Counter Spell/Discard Creature concept, but there are only a couple of Rogues that will work well with it.

Smallpox might be a good fit.

Kevdog
03-03-2008, 02:38 PM
Here is a decklist I played the week morningtide was legal:

Spells
4x morsel theft
4x peppersmoke
4x nameless inversion
3x notorious throng

Enchantments
4x bitterblossom

Creatures
4x frogtosser banneret
4x oona's blackguard
4x oona's prowler
4x latchekey faerie
3x earwig squad
3x vendillion clique (the only non-rogue creature)

Mana
4x dark ritual
4x polluted delta
4x underground sea
4x river of tears
2x swamp
1x island

Sideboard
4x stifle
4x gate to phyrexia (for equipment)
4x deathmark
3x coffin purge

I went 3-2 losing to Belcher 0-2 and 4 color control (non-landstill) 1-2. I was able to beat countertop goyf 2-1, no-red eternal garden 2-0, and another aggro-control deck I can't remember 2-0.
The blue is critical in that it allows notorious throng, latchkey farie, vendillion clique, as well as board options.
Notorious throng looks awful but is useful as a hardcast (for 4) and was lethal when prowled (because of the abundance of 3/1 flyers)
The 12 conditional cantrips are no replacement for true card advantage but are as good as aggro can really get without losing too much speed.
I had dunerider outlaws available but ended up cutting them in favor of the bitterblossoms (which I predicted to be bad as the fastest it can make an active/attacking guy is turn 3) for controlish decks which are abundant at the local tourney. The blossoms ended up being ok.
In a more aggro-intense meta, stinkdrinker bandits could easily replace the bitterblossoms and prickly bogart/nightshade stinger can go in for vendillion clique to ensure fewer prowl misses.

idraleo
03-03-2008, 08:02 PM
i tryed version that splashes blue but i found it loss by itself so many times: brainstorm sucks in this deck, that has the purpouse of fill the board with fast evasive critters and smash the hopponent hand and life thanks to the Blackguard ability. Then i turned back to monoblack version cutting off Banneret and running this new one:

// Lands
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Oona's Blackguard
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [MOR] Prickly Boggart
4 [MOR] Stinkdrinker Bandit
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
4 [LRW] Squeaking Pie Sneak

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 4 [US] Contamination
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [MOR] Offalsnout
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [MR] Sun Droplet


I added Squeaking pie cause it is another good evasive creature for his CC2, and the deck runs 14 goblin on maindeck, meaning that you ever cast SpS for 2. One big problem is Enginereed plague, that completely kills us; by the way it isn't really played by now, but i think that the better answer to it is Bad Moon, wich will be run in sb.

Media314r8
03-03-2008, 08:12 PM
brainstorm sucks in this deck

You're doing it wrong. Play fetchlands, play blue, play brainstorm. FIND your aggro critters when you need them, FIND your FoW when you need it, DITCH you extra lands/bad beats when you DONT need them.

Also, @ all:

PLAY LOOTER IL-KOR! He gives you CQ, evasion, and he's a rogue. He even pitches to FoW and doesn't afraid of anything! If I see another list with a 1B 1/1 that has haste and does absolutely nothing, I'm going to become a mod and lock this thread due to tomfoolerly.

Kevdog
03-04-2008, 02:34 PM
Frogtosser Banneret:
The banneret functions like nightscape familiar did in type 2 tog and is a must in the aggro builds, my version alone has 30 rogue cards (Cantrip semi-soul feast for B, juggernaut with semi-jester's cap for 1B, a cantrip 3/1 flyer for 1U... are amazing). He is not a threat on his own but in decks that run less than 24 mana sources, his ability to allow multiple spells to be played in a turn when you may have only been able to drop one that makes him worth it. For example:
A: Turn 2- blackguard
Turn 3- 4/2 oona's prowler
B: Turn 2- banneret
Turn 3- blackguard, 4/2 oona's prowler, and a +1/+1ed friend (blackguard, sneak, prowler, looter, if no blocks- bandit)
Option B has two more creatures on board than Option A: a 1/1 and a +1/+1ed friend.

Looter il-kor:
Unless you are running moxen/petals, the fastest looter il-kor can swing is turn 3 and flying/fear is usually just as good as shadow. Looter does have his place in the more controling versions with force/daze or mass discard (thoughtseize/therapy/noggin whack) but does not put guys on the board or do more than one damage unless pumped.
A: Turn 2- looter il-kor
Turn 3- swing 1, prowl stinkdrinker bandit
Turn 4- swing 3 or 7, prowl earwig squad
Turn 5- swing 3, 7, or 14
B: Turn 1- mox imprint card, looter il-kor
Turn 2- swing 1, prowl stinkdrinker bandit
Turn 3- swing 3 or 7, prowl earwig squad
Turn 4- swing 3, 7, or 14
C: Turn 1- prickly boggart
Turn 2- swing 1, prowl stinkdrinker bandit
Turn 3- swing 3 or 7, prowl earwig squad
Turn 4- swing 3, 7, or 14
Option B and C have the same result except Option B cost mox+imprint. The most abundant black creature is dark confidant and I think most people would choose to "no-block" a prickly boggart.

Media314r8
03-04-2008, 02:44 PM
This is legacy, not T2. Mana accelerants may cut it in T2, but CQ, CA, and consistancy make legacy decks win. With banneret, you can dump your hand, and you're in topdeck mode. He also almost NEVER swings. Do you see players MDing sapphire medalion in MUC??? Same thing, only sapphire is harder to kill. Looter will draw you into more threats, and he's good for the same reason Brainstorm is good. He ensures you keep pressure on and find what you need when you need it. Both look like unimpressive cantrips/filtering in a vacuum, but playtesting will convince you of the merits of both, I assure you.

idraleo
03-04-2008, 04:41 PM
do you really think that this deck needs brainstorm? i think it is almost a must-include card cause you always watch to ******** as the referral for aggrocontrol decks in legacy. i think that blue splash should be viable, but i think that runiing brainstorm isn't what we need; playing brainstorm means play fetchlands and consistent cantrips, i think that a valuable blue splash have to consider at least 2 or 3 Psionic Blast and the full set of Daze, and a card advantage engine created on creature base, leaving off Brainstorms and cc1 cantrips. Playing only Forces and Daze means that you can run Dark Ritual too, caue you don't need to tap for blue on turn 1 to cantrip, then the deck won't loss his aggro component and also have the possibility to run the 8 free counterspells and at least 2 psionic blast to close up games on a shot.

try to think to something like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
3 [MOR] Stinkdrinker Bandit
3 [LRW] Scion of Oona
4 [MOR] Oona's Blackguard
4 [TSP] Looter il-Kor
2 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [MOR] Prickly Boggart

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [TSB] Psionic Blast
4 [MM] Dark Ritual

with this building you always have a fast turn 1-2-3 gameplan, thaks to ritual and you can also use your Forces and Daze; playing Scion of Oona means that you have to take care only to the mass removal spells, cause Scion needs to be first killed by a StP or a Smother, leaving you 1 or 2 turns to deal a consistent number of damage. Scion is a counterspell also, cause you can cast him response to a StP or a Bolt exc. exc.

Maëlig
03-04-2008, 04:58 PM
I added Squeaking pie cause it is another good evasive creature for his CC2, and the deck runs 14 goblin on maindeck, meaning that you ever cast SpS for 2.
You could just play some of the decent discard or anti-creature that black offers instead of playing suboptimal (although synergic) cards. You don't like hymn to tourach?

idraleo
03-05-2008, 03:44 AM
if you're talking of the monoblack list, my answer is that i don't need Tourach. I got Thoughtseize and Cabal therapy, and on turn 2 i always want to drop a beast or 2 with ritual; cast a tourach on turn 2 mean bad hand without critters, and it probably will be relevant on turn 3 or 4 when he definitively sweep off opponent hand. The deck otherwise don't need a sweep like Tourach, cause the gameplan is to did 1 or 2 targeted sweeps, to discard some fast removal and protect your Blasckguard. With Blackguard in play, probably on turn 4 you did at least 10-14 damage and discarded 3-4 cards and did all of it simply dropping creatures.
I don't want to say that Tourach is not viable at least, sometimes happens that he wins games alone, but i don't think that it is the discard spell that we need.

mujadaddy
04-17-2008, 03:37 PM
Just a thought... Aether Vial? Here's a list I'm piecing together:

16 swamps
4 Volrath's stronghold
4*Dark Ritual
2*Aether Vial
3*Bitterblossom
2*Jitte
3*SoL&S
3*SoF&I

Nightshade Stinger
Dunerider Outlaw
Dauthi Slayer
Nantuko Shade
Oona's Blackguard
3*Stinkdrinker Bandit


...I know the Slayer & the Shade aren't Rogues, but sacrifices must be made, no? Not much of a strategy other than drop critters & swing... strictly weaker than Goblins, but it can make a lot of critters, fast, relative to everything else.

Sideboard brainstorming:
Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone
Diabolic Edict
Nev's Disk
Contaminaion

Pltnmngl
04-19-2008, 12:15 PM
PLAY LOOTER IL-KOR! He gives you CQ, evasion, and he's a rogue. He even pitches to FoW and doesn't afraid of anything! If I see another list with a 1B 1/1 that has haste and does absolutely nothing, I'm going to become a mod and lock this thread due to tomfoolerly.

Is it horrible that I find this hilarious?

On another note, Aether vial has no place here.

And seriously, Frogtosser pisses me off unless you're running mono-black.

idraleo
04-20-2008, 08:22 PM
this is my last update to te deck if someone still plays it, i did and it gaves me some nice scoop, i think i'll could took it to a real tournament if i would be able to build a well metagamed sideboard.

// Lands
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Oona's Blackguard
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [MOR] Prickly Boggart
4 [MOR] Stinkdrinker Bandit
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
2 [LRW] Squeaking Pie Sneak

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ON] Smother
4 [US] Contamination

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [MR] Sun Droplet
SB: 4 [TSB] Bad Moon