PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Les Nobless Oblige



raharu
02-27-2008, 10:30 PM
First, an explination of the title: it is french expression meaning "the nobles are obligated". From the begining ot legacy, everyone has feared control. They just say "no", and then squelch your gameplan. Few decks have the ability to roll control. Conrtol simply control, and is one of the alumni of the Legacy Metagame. Unfortunately, control has been forced into a corner as of late, and as a result, seems to have stagnated, and not posted the massive results as I believe the archtype could. Multipule attempts to revitalize this Old Regime archtype, but they have been less than stellar. These decks have been well drafted, well planned, and yet seem to not be as powerful as even the old standbys they were intended to improve upon. I onw must take my chance as "saving" the archtype. Now here we go:

I really want to play dedicated control, as I am and have always been a control player (after I evolved out of the GG Rampant-Growth fueled agro stage), but all of the options I’ve researched seem sub par. I’m trying to build a hardcore control deck, but it makes me cringe to run a high curve, mostly because of the 22-25 lands required eat slots for business and threats. For my initial concept, I reverse-engineered the threshold core (ensuring it wouldn‘t be too terrible), and came up with the following:

Countermagic: 7
Daze x3
Force of Will x4

Control: 6
Counterbalance x3
Back to Basics x3

Hand Manipulation: 15
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Portent x4
Predict x4

Removal: 9
Swords to Plowshares x4
Diabolic Edict x2
Vindicate x3

Win Conditions: 5
Hoofprints of the Stag x3
Tombstalker x2

Lands: 18
Split of City of Brass/ Undiscovered Paradise x4
Terramorphic Expanse x4
Island x7
Plains x1
Swamp x2

Card Choice Explanations:

Back to Basics: It makes everything better. Daze becomes viable outside of turn two, their ability to play spells is hampered by only having basics, so they are restricted to playing cheaper spells (which makes Counterbalance that much better), and makes the possibly Propagandas in the sideboard more potent as well.

Counterbalance: OMGZ itz the H4X0rz C4rdz!!!! But on a more serious note, this card is good here for the same reasons it is good in threshold, and then some. Vindicate and Back to Basics give me 6 cards at the 3cc slot, maybe more if I can find a suitable, less mana and color intensive replacement for Tombstalker. I think that Rushing River might find some use in the side board…

Daze: With a low curve and Back to Basics, this is just fine for a control deck. The tempo loss is worth it, considering that you will, for most intents and purposes, will win the game against deck snot named Goblins.

Force of Will: It’s control, and considering that the deck runs 25 blue cards (possibly more if you replace Vindicate with Rushing Rivers), it’s more or less core blue. I don’t think I have to explain more, but I detest card explanations that consist of entirely of “it good”.

Sensei’s Divining Top: Generally a good filter, but it’s mostly here for Counterbalance.

Brainstorm: Generally a alright cantrip, but it’s mostly here for Counterbalance and Hoofprints of the Stag. Without either of the two here, I more likely than not wouldn’t run it here.

Portent: Better with Sensei’s Divining Top than Ponder is, because the lapse between the shuffle and the draw means that it digs 3+3 before drawing (which is quite important), for 1U

Predict: accelerates Tombstalker, draws cards, clears card off the top of you deck for CounterTop, and has the random “oops, you just wasted a turn of set-up” factor that makes it a rouge element as it is in threshold.

Swords to Plowshares: Gets rid of problems permanently on the cheap. Occasionally the life gain is really gay, but it’s spot removal that gets rid of Mystic Enforcer (the only creature I genuinely fear from thresh). I’ll take it.

Diabolic Edict: the 14th and 15th cards at 2cc. Here mostly because of Enchantresses, Mongeese, and other things that make me cry routinely (like Blood Knight/ Black Knight). Only two because more seems excessive, and in a metagame that warants them, the rest of the playset can fit in the sideboard.

Vindicate: more cards at 3cc, and it’s a catch all answer to just about anything I let resolve. It’s multifaceted board control, and will generally eat threshold’s CB.

City of Brass/ Undiscovered Paradise split: they both provide mana of any color, which allows me to run whatever need be, should the occasion arise. City of Brass is better early game, but Undiscovered Paradise is better in the late game because of the synergy with Back to Basics and it doesn’t have any pain attached.

Terramorphic Expanse > a Fetchland based Manabase: Terramorphic Expanse fetches all of my basics, including random splashes for stuff like Pyroclasm, Tygradon Predator, and the like. It is simply much superior to anything else that could support this deck.

Concerns{

Stax: it’s a rather large force in the retard Dallas metagame, specifically Armageddon Stax. I’m thinking slipping a Forest in the MD and having Tygradon Predator in the board is the best option, but I don’t like it. It opens up Mongoose though, which I quite strongly like.

Solidarity: I should simply roll them, correct? I have enough methods to control them that I shouldn’t have to board Stifle, I believe. I might be wrong, though. I think I’ll have room in the sideboard, so it might not matter (now that I think about it, I believe that Stifle is going in as a 4-of, considering how generally good it is).

Randomness: tends to run more basic lands than “established” decks. What should I have in the board for this match? Sphere of Resistance? Considering that I can run the game behind CounterTop and Hoofprints of the Stag, it would be less than symmetrical, but I doubt it’s effectiveness.

About the finisher: Tombstalker needs a replacement. Eternal Dragon is sub par for the role due to the low plains count, and the recursion isn’t needed because CounterTop protects whatever I’m beating with. Something with shroud would be welcome, though, and not having a double of a splash color is a plus. If it wasn’t for the low land count (which is the point of the deck), I would consider Decree of Justice, but as it stands, it seems well out of the question. I have considered a good number of things, including Exalted Angel, Nullstone Gargoyle, Calciderm, and others, but they are sub par due to color restraints or because they just don’t fit the appropriate role. Morphling is slow, and it is too weak for the deck. Sudden Death takes care of it quite well, and I’m not sure that Sudden Death won’t be encountered. This vexes me to no end. A better, less color intensive finisher is out there, I know it.

Credits: xSockmonkeyx for the Teramorphic City Manabase, Internet Hate Machine (IHM) for being my guinea pig and testing all the crap I’ve told him to test in threshold, allowing me to vicariously test some of this deck with no effort involved, save lending and watching, and for giving me the inspiration for Undiscovered Paradise with Back to Basics.:laugh: Legacy for using lots and lots of non-basic lands, and City of Brass/ Undiscovered Paradise for producing all colors of mana, including purple, allowing me to run whatever I damn well please, and Extirpate for being split second (a 4-of auto include in every sideboard with access to it), as well as Pithing Needle for being awesome and free (a Veteran‘s Armaments for one and another really bad card for the other).

Ending notes: if someone can suggest another control deck that has a solid mid-game and an effectively low curve, I would be most thankful. Preferably something that uses the all-powerful Counterbalance + Sensei’s Divining Top engine (no TEC please).

Also, PAUL WALL!!!!! Best rapper ever. The end.

The Marco
02-27-2008, 10:46 PM
The correct spelling for the name is " Les Nobles Obligent"!

raharu
02-27-2008, 10:58 PM
C'est vrai, but I thought of the title and wrote the introductory paragraph in 2 minutes, right after I copy+pasta'd the list and write-up, and I've never heard of the term untill monday, from my french 4 teacher, and I've never seen the phrase in text. Thank you for letting me know, though. If a moderator would change that, I would be grateful.

thefreakaccident
02-27-2008, 11:30 PM
I don't understand why you would say such a silly thing as 'control is being backed into a corner'... this is just not the case. Control would be thriving if it weren't for the lack of competent and willing players (it is quite difficult and stressful to play through a very large tournament with a control deck).

I honestly think the perfect control deck is already around, and thriving, and that is landstill.

All you have to do is learn how to play the deck flawlessly and learn how to play it against the variety of decks that you will find in your area... once you have accomplished this, there will be no issue for you to win every tournament you go to.

You just have to be patient with yourself, in both the preparation and the actual playing.

Good luck! I hope you will find your way!

Goaswerfraiejen
02-27-2008, 11:37 PM
The correct spelling for the name is " Les Nobles Obligent"!

Actually, that's not true. The expression is "noblesse oblige," in which the "la" which prefaces it is left unsaid (sous-entendu, as we say). It actually means Nobility obliges. Thus, it should be La noblesse oblige. If it were nobles, then yes, you would be correct. :wink:



Now, for a substantial comment: The only aspect of the deck that gives me pause is your 15 cantrips/draw spells. That's a lot, especially with Top's reusability. I wonder if you might not be better served by going down to 11 and using the extra four slots for something else--perhaps more countermagic, such as Mana Leak or Spell Snare, or something similar control option.


As for finisher suggestions... there's Exalted Angel, but it has some colour restrictions and you've already dismissed it. There's always Jotun Grunt, which will consume your cantrips and help keep Threshold under control. There's Avatar of Hope, I guess... Ajani, although that's got the same colour restrictions as Exalted Angel. Avatar of Will, but you'll be paying the full cost most of the time. Wormfang Crab, but it has horrible synergy with most of the deck. :tongue: Benthicore, but it costs a fortune. Serendib Efreet, of course, but it may not be beefy enough.

Errant Ephemeron? Kinda janky, but it fits the criteria. Jodah's Avenger (pro red and double strike might make it worth the extra mana investment)? Deep-Sea Kraken?


Off the top of my head, those are all the possibilities. Of the bunch, Jotun Grunt, Ephemeron, Avenger, Kraken, Avatar, and Exalted Angel are probably your best options. Given that the deck is mostly blue, the blue cards among these are the more obvious possibilities. Myself, I rather like the Avenger, except that it costs a ton of mana and the deck doesn't have all that much. So... Ephemeron or Kraken, perhaps? They would certainly never get named by Meddling Mage. :tongue:

Edit: The other real option that I see is Maelstrom Djinn. Just saying.

raharu
02-27-2008, 11:40 PM
I don't understand why you would say such a silly thing as 'control is being backed into a corner'... this is just not the case. Control would be thriving if it weren't for the lack of competent and willing players (it is quite difficult and stressful to play through a very large tournament with a control deck).

I honestly think the perfect control deck is already around, and thriving, and that is landstill.

All you have to do is learn how to play the deck flawlessly and learn how to play it against the variety of decks that you will find in your area... once you have accomplished this, there will be no issue for you to win every tournament you go to.

You just have to be patient with yourself, in both the preparation and the actual playing.

Good luck! I hope you will find your way!
I don't believe that it's difficlut to play control all day. If your game is tight, your game is tight and will stay as such all day. The problem I see with Landstill is the spotty draw engine (Fact or Fiction is lacking power) and weak manabase. The reason that control is seeing a decline in play and results is the fact that control is A) difficult to play in general, as you said, and B) it has bad matches against a good number of top tier decks. Goblins eats Landstill's manabase and over-runs your early defenses, Ichorid doesn't have to resolve any spells, and Dragonstompy is simply a beast. As far as I know, Landstill does beat threshold, but so should this. I'm not sure about the combo matchup, but with only 4 Force of Will for early countermagic, I can't see that as being positive.

raharu
02-27-2008, 11:51 PM
He is correct though. The phrase is "noblesse oblige", and the -ent, a plural ending, is inapropriate.

thefreakaccident
02-28-2008, 12:16 AM
I don't believe that it's difficlut to play control all day. If your game is tight, your game is tight and will stay as such all day. The problem I see with Landstill is the spotty draw engine (Fact or Fiction is lacking power) and weak manabase. The reason that control is seeing a decline in play and results is the fact that control is A) difficult to play in general, as you said, and B) it has bad matches against a good number of top tier decks. Goblins eats Landstill's manabase and over-runs your early defenses, Ichorid doesn't have to resolve any spells, and Dragonstompy is simply a beast. As far as I know, Landstill does beat threshold, but so should this. I'm not sure about the combo matchup, but with only 4 Force of Will for early countermagic, I can't see that as being positive.


You should strongly consider looking into Der's UWb build of landstill, it thrashes thresh, rapes goblins, and hold's its' own against the seemingly endless horde of zombie tokens in Ichorid's wake... Also as a side note, I have beaten dragon stompy in both testing and tournament play with this deck...

For reference, here is the list (which has placed well many a time, although it is in a german metagame and does not get its' deserved credit on this site):

lands//24
1 scrubland
2 underground sea
4 tundra
2 island
2 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//35
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 cunning wish
4 swords to plowshares
2 humility
3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives
2 crucible of worlds
2 decree of justice

sideboard//
1 dust to dust
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
1 pulse of the fields
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague

I don't mean to sound rediculous, but this build hasn't provided me with any negative MUs, except for perhaps belcher, as I play against the luckiest people on the planet that never go for the ETW kill and always (rediculously without fail) go off on turn 1.

Aside from that little frustrating fact, the deck plays like a dream, you just have to play it right... It has the tools to beat most everything in the current format.

Nihil Credo
02-28-2008, 12:38 AM
Disclaimer: I haven't paid any attention to the rest of the deck. The following just caught my eye:


Back to Basics x3

Lands: 18

Split of City of Brass/ Undiscovered Paradise x4
Terramorphic Expanse x4
Island x7
Plains x1
Swamp x2


I see no reason why the manabase could not be instead something like the following:

Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x3
Island x 5
Plains x1
Swamp x2
Underground Sea x1
Tundra x1


Test with this initial configuration, then if colour-screw happens too often you can start adding more copies of the dual lands. Don't worry, even if you add a few more it will still be a far better base than 4x rainbow lands + 4x CIPT lands.

Iranon
02-28-2008, 02:52 AM
If you are using Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor becomes ridiculously strong as a tutor + hard counter. Targets for it beyond the SDT, the Balance and the Hoofprints could be

Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Porphyry Nodes
Isochron Scepter
Seal of Cleansing
Standstill
Crucible of Worlds
Oblivion Ring
Moat
Humility


Including all or most of these would result in a very different deck, but need I stress how awesome a sceptered Brainstorm is with both Hoofprints and Counterbalance?

Meekrab
02-28-2008, 02:55 AM
So you're playing black thresh minus the broken green creatures and plus some bad 3cc enchantments? Forgive me for saying that idea sucks and the deck name makes no sense.

If you want your Goyfless control deck to stay alive long enough for Hoofprints to win you the game, you need need need some sort of board sweeper that you can use on your fourth turn right before you get savagely owned. Wrath of God, Damnation, Pernicious Deed, Earthquake, whatever.

15 cantrips in a 'control deck' is a bad idea, you're going to spend all your mana cantripping and none of it playing the spells that keep you alive. Brainstorm and Top should be enough filtering; use the other 8 slots for some actual card advantage so you can afford to use your 1 for 1 removal. Standstill is the usual card, but you don't really have much to exploit it with. Intuition->Ancestral Knowledge is a meh idea, Meditate is situationally good, Night's Whisper could be ok, Dark Confidant is pretty broken with a Top going...

Your win conditions. Hoofprints is really slow though it combos nicely with draw spells; and Tombstalker is also slow. How painful would it be to drop white or drop black and play Mongoose and Goyf? And then drop B2B and play a couple bounce spells? What about just playing Threshold, which you seem like you secretly want to do anyway? Serious suggestions: Morphling and Rainbow Efreet. Neither really works with your low land count idea, bummer.

Maveric78f
02-28-2008, 04:57 AM
Hand Manipulation: 15
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Portent x4
Predict x4

Stop with cantrips !!! That's crazy. How can they be so much overrated in legacy ???

Shtriga
02-28-2008, 05:49 AM
this is similar to the list Mori ran in the world championships I think

and I agree with maveric in that there's 4 cantrips too many. you're not trying to get threshold and are not running 17 lands so they aren't as needed. and, they're not card drawing per say, they improve your card quality but not card quantity

edit: DOH, I just had a look at how many lands you run (for some reason I saw 22-25 and thought you had 22 lands). but still 12 cantrips+top is a little too much

zulander
02-28-2008, 05:56 AM
I don't understand why you would say such a silly thing as 'control is being backed into a corner'... this is just not the case. Control would be thriving if it weren't for the lack of competent and willing players (it is quite difficult and stressful to play through a very large tournament with a control deck).

I honestly think the perfect control deck is already around, and thriving, and that is landstill.

All you have to do is learn how to play the deck flawlessly and learn how to play it against the variety of decks that you will find in your area... once you have accomplished this, there will be no issue for you to win every tournament you go to.

You just have to be patient with yourself, in both the preparation and the actual playing.

Good luck! I hope you will find your way!
I lol'd. You're 100% correct right, it isn't that control is dieing, but the reason it "sucks" right now is that everyone that plays it sucks.
/sarcasm

xsockmonkeyx
02-28-2008, 06:57 AM
Credits: xSockmonkeyx for the Teramorphic City Manabase, Internet Hate Machine (IHM) for being my guinea pig and testing all the crap I’ve told him to test in threshold, allowing me to vicariously test some of this deck with no effort involved, save lending and watching, and for giving me the inspiration for Undiscovered Paradise with Back to Basics.:laugh: Legacy for using lots and lots of non-basic lands, and City of Brass/ Undiscovered Paradise for producing all colors of mana, including purple, allowing me to run whatever I damn well please, and Extirpate for being split second (a 4-of auto include in every sideboard with access to it), as well as Pithing Needle for being awesome and free (a Veteran‘s Armaments for one and another really bad card for the other).

Meh, I dont remember coming up with it. I do think B2B + Undiscovered Paradise is pretty hilarious though. :D

Im working on a deck similar to this with a CB+B2B shell. I recommend Green for Goyf (:cry:) and to include some Vedalken Shackles if you run a traditional manabase.

Jourdelune
02-28-2008, 11:44 AM
A lot of testing from H. of the Staag show that Sylvan Library is actually a superb card to consider. It remove a lot of your cantrip needs has well and open green for Goy, p. deeds and krosan grip. Vindicate < K. Grip against threshold.

But, going on the green route... u can't cut white for the Staag, can't cut blue for your control color... so, black... well no black, no deeds. E.E could do a lot... but its means finding another beast for Tombswalker < Mystic Enforcer.

7 slot for black? It worth it? What is your sideboard?

Diabolic Edict -2 < E.E for shroud creatures have much power to kill much more -> shroud beast geese done...

Vindicate -3
Tombstalker -2

E. Explosive + 4
Tarmogoyf + 3 (or Mystic Enforcer )

Cantrips -3
Sylvan library +3 => look at that... 3 tokens per turn on Staag. 2 lib in play, 6 tokens... 2 staag in play... etc... do your filtering for CB.

You need more against Aggro? Sylvan library + Island Sanctuary + Staag... the triforce of control. SB: Island Sanctuary

In the SB: 4 Jotun grunt that could be switch for Tarmo against GY deck.


Jourdelune

Shtriga
02-28-2008, 01:36 PM
I think Jourdelune made some good suggestions. there's not much reason to play black instead of green, when you aren't packing hand disruption

monkeyfeelers
02-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Hm, this seems mostly like mucho worse than landstill. Your playing a "control deck" and you don't even have a moderatly unfair late game. You can spend all your resources fighting with your opponent here and there and in the end you'll both be in the same position startegically. All thier spells will be just as powerfull as yours and since most other decks have more/better ways to win they will eventually wear you down.

If you want to play control I suggest you look at the landstill/elightened tutor decks that showed up for worlds. The have both control elements for early game and ways to dominate the late game. You need bombs like moat/FoF/Exalted Angel/counter balance so that once you get enough resources your opponents don't stand a chance.

Cavius The Great
02-28-2008, 02:50 PM
I lol'd. You're 100% correct right, it isn't that control is dieing, but the reason it "sucks" right now is that everyone that plays it sucks.
/sarcasm

Zulander, he's right. Why do you think Zvi Mowshowitz top8's in every tournament he plays with various U/W control decks? It's becuase he recognizes his playstyle and is a phenomenal control player. That's the main reason he wins, becuase he excels at playing control and can pilot it superbly.

raharu
02-28-2008, 04:04 PM
Lots of points and counterpoints, and I'm pressed for time, so I will try to provied a response that will tide everyone over for a while.

First: Black is mostly here for Vindicate, which was origionally Oblivion Ring in the UW draft. I believe that a version running three Dark Confidant in the place of Predict, with the 4th Predict slot going to the third Diabolic Edict, would be stronger. I think I'll build that and see how it plays. Standstill seems... Situational. Without a method of applying pressure or an engine that plays around it, the card is win-more. The power of Back to Basics and Counterbalance + Sensei's divining Top is simply too strong to ignore, and for all intents and purposes, is the method in which this deck maintains an unfair late-game. Stifles in the board would stop betching for basic lands, making is a hard lock. Maybe Island Sanctuary would be a good sideboard card, but I would not be opposed to playing it in the main if the slots were open.

@thefreakaccident: Consider Return to Dust in your sideboard in place of Dust to Dust. It hits Enchantments as well. On an argumentive note, while you rlist looks strong, I don't believe that landstill, at least non-deed landstill, is not the best form of the deck. I would play Deed in this build, but it has might bad synergy with Back to Basics and Counterbalance, which is why Engineered Explosives is not seeing play in this deck.

@ Nihil: you manabase has few actual lands, mostly fetches. The reason I run 4 Fetchlands in an 18 land deck is because I have a low "non-bidness" count, but many lands that produce mana, and I'm also quite invulnerable to Stifle. Pithing Needle is a bitch, but no-one is going to name Expanse with thier Needle Game one. Perhaps Rushing River is superior to Vindicate here...

@ Iranon: FUCKING PORPHYRY NODES!!! Porphyry Nodes seems like it would do me some good in the agro matches. Would it be a good substute for Diabolic Edict? Hmmmm... I'll test it when I get my SDTs back from IHM...

@ Too many cantrips: What should take the place of Portent? It digs for 3+3 with SDT, and adds to my blue count... Perhaps Meditate?

Ending thoughts: It looks like the curve is starting to get a little bit too wonky for CB. I'll forge a new draft and see, then post. I'll try to fix the curve before I post the list, although I'm not sure if I can fix it. The curve seels like it's going to become too weighted at 1 and 3. We shall see.

Nihil Credo
02-28-2008, 04:35 PM
@ Nihil: you manabase has few actual lands, mostly fetches.

3 less actual lands than yours. Negligible (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096).


The reason I run 4 Fetchlands in an 18 land deck is because I have a low "non-bidness" count, but many lands that produce mana, and I'm also quite invulnerable to Stifle.

"Quite invulnerable to Stifle"? Expanse gives them an untap step to prepare their Stifle - you can never play around it, unlike with an Onslaught fetch.

Also, let me restate: four lands that ping you or don't advance your land drops (both awful things for a control deck). Four lands that CITP. This is pretty close to the Platonic ideal of suck.

xsockmonkeyx
02-28-2008, 11:47 PM
"Quite invulnerable to Stifle"? Expanse gives them an untap step to prepare their Stifle - you can never play around it, unlike with an Onslaught fetch.

Um...you do realize that its the fetched land that CIPT, not Terramorphic Expanse, right?

Nihil Credo
02-29-2008, 03:07 AM
Um...you do realize that its the fetched land that CIPT, not Terramorphic Expanse, right?
You're right, disregard that one line.