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Lukas Preuss
03-10-2008, 08:52 AM
I just found this very interesting new Tendrils combo deck, which is powered by Magus of the Jar. It made T8 at the Ancient Memory Convention, a regular Japanese tournament with 44 participants.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14231

Here's the list:

Mana:
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island

Search:
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Careful Study
4 Ponder

Combo:
4 Corpse Dance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Magus of the Jar

Bounce:
1 Chain of Vapor

Kill:
3 Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard:
2 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth


I haven't tested the deck at all, but Magus of the Jar is a very powerful card. I also think the inclusion of Mox Diamond is remarkable. It allows the combo player to use the lands he draws of the Magus if he already played one. I'd rather use 4 Chrome Mox, though. I'm not sure if Land Grant has a place here since the deck runs 8 lands already... but it might be nice to thin the deck out during the combo.

Oh, and I'm not sure if only 4 Careful Study is enough to reliably put a Magus in the graveyard.
The man plan in the SB looks nice, by the way.

What are your thoughts?

Sanguine Voyeur
03-10-2008, 08:59 AM
This has been brought up before twice. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4898) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4262). Those could be resources for information on work already done on the deck.

The biggest weakness I can see in this deck is vulnerability to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Force, graveyard hate, and hand disruption.

largebrandon
03-10-2008, 09:12 AM
This has been brought up before twice. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4898) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4262). Those could be resources for information on work already done on the deck.

The biggest weakness I can see in this deck is vulnerability to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Force, graveyard hate, and hand disruption.

So, everything in the format?

I'm thinking this deck AT LEAST needs FoW in order to stay alive. Randy Bueler built a deck in ext a long time ago when YawgWill was a 4 of in everydeck and used the REAL jar. I'm guessing that is where this deck is inspired from.

Pulp_Fiction
03-10-2008, 05:01 PM
It is actually a really cool idea and quite an interesting deck, but why would this be played over a deck like Belcher, SI, Fetchland Tendrils, or TES? This deck, while really cool, dies to basically every form of hate in the format, unlike these other combo decks which are usually only affected by a few cards in particular, this deck is affected by ALL of the usual combo hate cards.

Wallace
03-10-2008, 05:12 PM
This has been brought up before twice. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4898) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4262). Those could be resources for information on work already done on the deck.

The biggest weakness I can see in this deck is vulnerability to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Force, graveyard hate, and hand disruption.

Just like almost any other combo deck?

matelml
03-10-2008, 05:34 PM
Not the good combo decks... (Think TES, Breakfast, Fetchland Tendrils, Solidarity maybe)

Nihil Credo
03-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Yep, I built a pretty similar Jar combo deck right after Magus was spoiled. Never did anything with it, though, because it basically had every drawback of other combo decks with no significant upside.

Cavius The Great
03-10-2008, 09:20 PM
Has Buried Alive been tested?

raharu
03-10-2008, 09:24 PM
Entomb ne1??

Sanguine Voyeur
03-10-2008, 09:26 PM
Entomb ne1??Entomb, the card banned in Legacy? That shouldn't be run due to the legality issue.

Cavius The Great
03-10-2008, 09:27 PM
Entomb ne1??

Entomb is banned.

EDIT: Voyeur, you beat me to it by a millasecond.

Lukas Preuss
03-11-2008, 03:08 AM
Yeah, after some testing, I came to the conclusion that this deck had many of the advantages of decks like SI, but it is way too vulnerable. If Entomb were unbanned, this deck would be really good. First Turn Dark Ritual, Entomb, Shallow Grave -> Nice.

But right now, I don't see how this deck could be made strong enough to compete with the other combo decks.

Xenocide
03-11-2008, 04:04 AM
Entomb ne1??

Damn, I hate sarcasm on boards, it's irritating because there is no tonal inflection that would usually give it away.

nicofromtokyo
03-11-2008, 04:40 AM
Btw, I made a report on the Source, you can find it here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8867

>I'm thinking this deck AT LEAST needs FoW in order to stay alive
Just impossible, the deck plays 4 LED, you will have to discard your FoW before casting your spells most of the time.

The deck just die on so many cards, it's a shame, but my goal wasn't to break the format, only to have fun with that list I'm building for a long time.

The control MU is simply I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E. I was thinking about playing Orim's Chant and Ancient Spring (or the new 3 colors land that you can get with Land Grant), but the list is already so tight, that's why I play aggro-side. The fact is nobody expects that kind of list, and concentrates sideboard on disrupting the combo (which is pretty fast btw), so Negator and Tarmo just beat ftw without fearing hate. The surprise element was a very important factor. Regarding the choice in the creatures, you can yell on me, I was just short in better creatures :). But Fleash Reaver was pretty good although.

Iranon
03-11-2008, 08:32 AM
This looks... horrible. The deck tries very hard to get a clunky combo enabler going that doesn't even kill reliably. It would make sense to either use a compact combo that actually kills (Breakfast, Buried Alive/Reanimate/Trix... 3-5 mana depending on how many slots you're willing to sacrifice).

Alternatively, the deck could just use Diminishing Returns for practically the same effect without bending over backwards. It would probably still be bad but at least it shaves 8 useless slots... or am I missing something?

nicofromtokyo
03-11-2008, 10:50 AM
This looks... horrible. The deck tries very hard to get a clunky combo enabler going that doesn't even kill reliably.
Thank you :), a friend of mine told me the same thing so many times before this first tournament with my deck.


Alternatively, the deck could just use Diminishing Returns for practically the same effect without bending over backwards. It would probably still be bad but at least it shaves 8 useless slots... or am I missing something?
Yes, you would only have 4 Diminishing Returns, here you have at least 8 Draw7. The deck surprisingly doesn't fizzle so much with 12 library manipulators, shufflers and so few lands. You can just win with Tendrils after the first activation of the Magus.

But, as I told in my report, this deck is weak to a lot of things, BUT kills reliably and is pretty fast. Why I played this that? Because I wanted to do something else than netdecking, that's all.

Any advices to make it better are welcomed.

Cavius The Great
03-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Damn, I hate sarcasm on boards, it's irritating because there is no tonal inflection that would usually give it away.

I can guarantee that's not sarcasm. Judging from most of Raharu's posts, you'll soon realize that he's serious. :wink:

raharu
03-11-2008, 05:14 PM
I can guarantee that's not sarcasm. Judging from most of Raharu's posts, you'll soon realize that he's serious. :wink:
and your novelty just wore off (again) :]

e_hawk77
04-01-2008, 11:50 PM
I played this deck today and went 3-1. My only loss was to a forfeited match because the person with my cards showed up late and i got a match loss.

This is my list. (which is much different then the japanese list)

4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus petal
4 Shallow grave
3 Corpse dance
4 Magus of the Jar
4 Force of will
3 Pact of negation
3 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
4 Careful study
3 Tendrills of agony

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

sb

4 Dark Confidant
1 Tendrills of agony
2 hurkly's recall
2 wipe away
2 echoing truth
4 duress


I went off pretty consistantly (2 or 3). The cantrips really help out. Also force back up isn't very hard to do. Take a look at the list or even test it out and tell me what you think.

Cavius The Great
04-03-2008, 02:12 PM
I played this deck today and went 3-1. My only loss was to a forfeited match because the person with my cards showed up late and i got a match loss.

This is my list. (which is much different then the japanese list)

4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus petal
4 Shallow grave
3 Corpse dance
4 Magus of the Jar
4 Force of will
3 Pact of negation
3 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
4 Careful study
3 Tendrills of agony

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

sb

4 Dark Confidant
1 Tendrills of agony
2 hurkly's recall
2 wipe away
2 echoing truth
4 duress


I went off pretty consistantly (2 or 3). The cantrips really help out. Also force back up isn't very hard to do. Take a look at the list or even test it out and tell me what you think.

I'd definitely would run Thoughtseize or Duress over pact of negation. Pact of Negation is a horrible card and I learned that the hard way.

Finn
04-03-2008, 02:39 PM
Take a look at the list or even test it out and tell me what you think.I think your opponents were asleep.

Let me see if I understand this. To go off, you really want the magus in your graveyard. You have exactly 8 cards capable of doing that - and four of them make you discard your entire hand (including the animate spell). Doesn't anyone test at all before posting this stuff?

emidln
04-03-2008, 02:57 PM
I think your opponents were asleep.

Let me see if I understand this. To go off, you really want the magus in your graveyard. You have exactly 8 cards capable of doing that - and four of them make you discard your entire hand (including the animate spell). Doesn't anyone test at all before posting this stuff?

You know, every time you post about combo you seem make a fool out of yourself. Corpse Dance and Shallow Grave don't target a creature so the LED can be broken with the reanimate spell on the stack. This was pretty obvious to anyone who RTFC before posting.

The really neat trick with this is casting Corpse Dance with buyback then breaking LED while you retain priority. If Corpse Dance resolves you get a Magus in play and a Corpse Dance in hand. You can activate Magus and with Magus's ability on the stack, you cast Corpse Dance again. This results in a fresh hand of 7 cards and a Magus of the Jar in play.

Finn
04-03-2008, 03:37 PM
blah blah
Yeah, whatever. I know your pride has been hurt when you weren't included in PR's fun, but I had nothing to do with that. And anyway, was it somehow unclear that I was looking for someone to point out what the deal was?

So, now you have the same eight spells to find or the deck does nothing. And you still have to get a Magus in the gy. My favorite part are the with hands with Careful Study and no Magus. So I reiterate - does anyone test?

pssst. Intuition

Tacosnape
04-03-2008, 04:35 PM
There's an inherent weakness in any deck running both Force of Will and Lion's Eye Diamond. This is namely that once you crack the LED, you lose your ability to use the Force of Will to stop them from countering whatever you have on the stack at the time. This ought to be kept in mind.

Still, neat deck.

BreathWeapon
04-03-2008, 11:04 PM
It's not awful, altho' Thought Seize/Cabal Therapy and Brain Freeze are necessary, the discard for disruption/outlet and Brain Freeze for tutor + outlet/Threshold.

Force of Will is best in the SB, where it can be SBed in to deal with permanent based hate.

Intuition blows, use Lim Dul's Vault.

e_hawk77
04-04-2008, 12:16 AM
Force of will and pact of negation are actually really solid in the deck. Unlike iggy pop you dont need to pop the led in response to your combo. You are protecting you reamimation spell not the magus trigger. A lot of the times when you are going off you hit so much mana you dont need the led anyway and if you do you do it in response to a draw spell or magus trigger.

Pulp_Fiction
04-04-2008, 12:37 AM
Ok, I will give whoever designed this deck credit .... it is a cool idea. But the deck is terrible, you play counters in a deck that runs LED ..? That is just a bad plan. Hand destruction is a million times better than this seeing as it doesn't run IGG to return the discarded cards. This deck is not near fast enough (in combo deck terms) for the hate cards that destroy it. And not only is it not fast enough but it is affected by ALL of the traditional combo hate cards. Not just random stuff like Pithing Needle and Trinisphere but: Tormod's Crypt, Planar Void, Sphere of Resistance, Leyline of the Void, Counterbalance ..... the list can go on and on. The point I am making is that who would ever want to play a deck like this (in a serious tournament level environment) over a deck like TES, Si, Belcher, or Fetchland Tendrils? Those decks only get hosed by a few combo hate cards. ALL THE REGULAR COMBO HATE AFFECTS THIS DECK!

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 01:21 PM
Force of will and pact of negation are actually really solid in the deck. Unlike iggy pop you dont need to pop the led in response to your combo. You are protecting you reamimation spell not the magus trigger. A lot of the times when you are going off you hit so much mana you dont need the led anyway and if you do you do it in response to a draw spell or magus trigger.

You sacrifice LED in response to a reanimate to discard Magus. The same problem exists, it's just in a different flavor. You don't need Force of Will until game 2, it's just an inefficient disruption card game 1 compared to discard, which is an outlet against aggro.

Cavius The Great
04-05-2008, 11:37 AM
Why don't you run just 7-8 Duress effects if you're that concerned with LED?

Finn
04-06-2008, 03:43 AM
Intuition blows, use Lim Dul's Vault.Right, because Vault puts the Magus in your graveyard. Good idea.

emidln
04-06-2008, 04:00 AM
Right, because Vault puts the Magus in your graveyard. Good idea.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of tutors. 4x LDV gives you extra copies of reanimation spells, discard spells, protection, and magi. LDV lets you find the missing combo piece, with the potential to find multiple pieces.

BreathWeapon
04-06-2008, 01:39 PM
Right, because Vault puts the Magus in your graveyard. Good idea.

Lim Dul's Vault stacks Careful Study + Magus of the Jar, and the deck has up to 16 discard outlets between discard, Careful Study and Lion's Eye Diamond. Intuition doesn't tutor for removal, which is of the utmost importance in a deck that is affected by every commonly played permanent in the format.

This deck isn't knew, we built it, tested it and piloted it in 2006 and found that it needed to resolve either Lim Dul's Vault or Brain Freeze on turn 2 in order to set up for turn 3, where Intuition is a turn too slow.

nicofromtokyo
09-19-2009, 10:27 PM
Thanks to the DCI, I can take my deck out from space. We now have Entomb, and that's all I needed.

Just to brievly resume the concept of the deck: Reanimator on Magus of the Jar to multiple draw7 and ToA ftw.

Thanks to Entomb, you don't need LDV and Careful Study anymore, Mystical Tutor does the job, and in a better way. MysTu gives you access to both parts of the combo (Entomb and Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance), so you don't need to play 4 MotJ and 4 Entomb. The deck becomes really more consistant and you can easily kill on turn 1 with only 3-4 cards if you're a bit lucky, or set a turn 2 kill with MysTu.

OF COURSE, the deck is still as WEAK as it was 2 years ago, it dies on any counterspells, Chant, Needle, 3sphere or any GY hate cards, but if your meta is full of Zoo or Goblins, you have your chance (I know this meta does not exist...).

My current list:

4 Bayou
4 Tropi
4 Land Grand
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
4 Corpse Dance
3 Magus of the Jar
3 Entomb

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Ponder
2 BReakthrough

3 Tendrils of Agony

1 Chain of Vapor


I made a few tests against Zoo pre-side : 100/0 for me.
I made a few tests against Landstill pre-side : 0/100 for me.
I made a few tests against Stax pre-side : something like 55/45 for me.

3sphere is simply gg, but CotV is not so scary. CotV@0? Rituals. CotV@1? Moxen. Cotv@2? Corpse Dance, Moxen, Rituals.

I guess the side-board must be something built to beat control MU, and critters like Sea Drake, Tarmo, Negator etc, OR combo option like LotV+Helm is the right way.

The deck is a lot of fun, even though it's not really what man calls a competitive deck, but thanks to Entomb, it became really consistant and nice to play!

Xentra
09-21-2009, 01:43 PM
What about using only black (except for the magus ofc) and use Thoughtseize, so you can even discard the magus with that if needed, and another discard effect, let's say duress. Or is blue really needed to tutor it up. and with bayou you could play living wish to find the magus in the sideboard.

4 Bayou
4 Land Grand
4 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
4 Corpse Dance
3 Magus of the Jar
4 Entomb

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

2 Tendrils of Agony

5 other cards

georgjorge
09-21-2009, 02:46 PM
I think you need blue to ensure you can continue chaining reanimation effects, and not draw a new hand of seven with only mana and disruption.

I would go up to four Entomb, and cut the Breakthroughs (???). Also, this deck needs Chants just as much as a deck using Ill-Gotten-Gains, namely a lot - if you use discard instead, you'll need to draw a discard spell for each new 7-hand-card or risk running into the Force they drew into, if you use Chant you only need to resolve one Chant and then never worry about it again.

Xentra
09-21-2009, 05:25 PM
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
4 Corpse Dance
3 Magus of the Jar
4 Entomb

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Orim's Chant


Could this list work?

BreathWeapon
09-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Splashing Green is a really, really big deal considering it gives you both Krosan Grip and Entomb -> Ancient Grudge for every BS artifact you'd have to deal with.

The deck is semi-viable, I'd advocate Cunning Wish as your win condition tho' - you don't need Brain Freeze as an emergency tutor anymore.

nicofromtokyo
09-21-2009, 09:50 PM
I think you need blue to ensure you can continue chaining reanimation effects, and not draw a new hand of seven with only mana and disruption.

I would go up to four Entomb, and cut the Breakthroughs (???). Also, this deck needs Chants just as much as a deck using Ill-Gotten-Gains, namely a lot - if you use discard instead, you'll need to draw a discard spell for each new 7-hand-card or risk running into the Force they drew into, if you use Chant you only need to resolve one Chant and then never worry about it again.

I gave a try to Breakthrough (Draw 4 for 2, may discard your Magus when needed), but it was not a good idea, as Sensei as well. Ponder does the job and it's enough. IGG may be great indeed, once you started to combo out, but it's useless before.

Chant is of course the right answer, Xantid is probably better (no need to splash white) but creatures are just too weak for the format. Duress-like cards, as well as Counters, are bad in that deck, because your goal is to draw and make draw 7 cards to your opponent, and you wont never be able to hit the good card at the best timing all the time. Defense grid?

THe problem with 4 Entomb is the card is really bad once you started to combo out. You just use it to thicken the deck by looking for lands or Magus. I think 3 is the good number, added to 4 Mystical.

Ancient Grudge is a good idea, but it assumes you play the control plan post-side. I prefer Bounces eot ftw.

Instead of Breakthrough, I guess Brainstorm is the best. Night's Whisper maybe?

BreathWeapon
09-22-2009, 03:32 AM
Careful Study is probably still better than any of the other cantrips. I think you definitely want the full set of Entomb tho', Dark Ritual -> Entomb -> Corpse Dance is the absolute nuts and you'll need Entomb -> Ancient Grudge to fight thru' Crypt, Relic and Needle. I honestly don't think it matters if it's worthless while going off, if you're going then you're going off, it's getting there that matters.

Also, I think you can Entomb in responce to Crypt with Corpse Dance on the stack, which is ubelievably bad ass.

georgjorge
09-22-2009, 06:17 AM
THe problem with 4 Entomb is the card is really bad once you started to combo out. You just use it to thicken the deck by looking for lands or Magus. I think 3 is the good number, added to 4 Mystical.


I see your point...maybe play a singleton Deep Analysis to make use of those Entombs mid-combo (not too bad on its own with LED and Study) ?

nicofromtokyo
09-22-2009, 10:03 AM
I see your point...maybe play a singleton Deep Analysis to make use of those Entombs mid-combo (not too bad on its own with LED and Study) ?
Yes you're right, I will try the card.

I was thinking about Repeal too (instead of CoV), so 3 Repeal main deck, it's never a dead card.

Xentra
09-22-2009, 10:31 AM
What about this B/g list?

----- Mana Sources (22) -----

- 4x Land Grant
- 4x Bayou
- 4x Chrome Mox
- 2x Mox Diamond
- 4x Lion's Eye Diamond
- 4x Lotus Petal

----- Acceleration (8) -----

- 4x Dark Ritual
- 4x Cabal Ritual

----- Combo (17) -----

- 4x Shallow Grave
- 4x Corpse Dance
- 3x Magus of the Jar
- 4x Entomb
- 2x Tendrils of Agony

----- Draw (4) -----

- 4x Night's Whisper

----- Disruption (5) -----

- 4x Thoughtseize
- 1x Ancient Grudge

----- Tutor (4) -----

- 3x Infernal Tutor
- 1x Living Wish


------------------------------

----- Sideboard -----

- 4x Xandid Swarm
- 3x Krosan Grip
- 1x Magus of the Jar
- ...

rufus
09-22-2009, 11:07 AM
Ideas Unbound might be a decent fit for this deck. It seems like it would be better than Night's Whisper.

It seems like you'd have a lot of trouble from opponents drawing into FoW or Brainstorm off the Magus of the Jar effects...

It's a pity that Kaho -> Skeletal Scrying doesn't work anymore, it would be a perfect fit.

Underworld Dreams could be interesting for you.

nicofromtokyo
09-22-2009, 09:07 PM
Regarding Xentra's list, I don't see the point in cutting Mystical Tutor for Infernal Tutor. It costs you one more mana, it's a sorcery, you have to discard your hand, for the same thing.

Discards/counters do not fit the list. Imagine you make your opp discards his FoW. You resolve Shallow Grave, you both draw new 7 cards, he has one more FoW, you don't have your Duress, gg. The only plans against counter deck are Chant, Xantid, Defense Grid, Luck, aggro/combo side.

I tried Underworld Dreams a long time ago, but you have to resolve 3 Magus after having played UD (=dead card if you don't have it in your first hand). Megrim is better, as you can play it before or after combing out, and you only need to have resolved 2 Magus.

Thanks for the comments anyway :)

e_hawk77
09-22-2009, 11:18 PM
xantid swarm seems bad if they have any way to kill it besides swords or path. It is another creature that could go in the yard when you go to reanimate.

Illissius
09-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Why not base this on Eric Becker's (kobefan's) list? That was the most advanced Jar deck from before Entomb. The main innovation was using Brain Freeze instead of Tendrils to (a) potentially mill a Jar (b) also power up Cabal Rituals.