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GGoober
03-13-2008, 01:23 AM
Here is a possible Rogue deck being developed, with bulk inspiration from Dragon Stompy. Before engaging in a discussion and critique with regards to the card-list of the deck, we should perhaps reveal the strengths and weaknesses of a number of decks in Legacy My motivation for the development of Rakdos Stompy follows from the four main characteristics of the meta in Legacy.



Here's the navigation for Rakdos Stompy:

A: The Legacy Meta
1. Fast Clocks: Goblins, Stompy and Combo Decks
2. Pseudo Clocks: Control and Prison Decks
3. Card Advantage:
4. Virtual Card Advantage
B: Why Stompy?
C: Rakdos Stompy Decklist
D: Analyzing Rakdos Stompy
1. Manabase
2. Board Control
3. Creatures
4. Equipment/Pumps
5. Sideboard
E: Matchups
F: Conclusions
1. Clock and Speed
2. Gameplay Diversity
3. Manabase and Consistencies
4. Deck Development and Card-Pool Diversity







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A: The Legacy Meta
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1. Fast Clocks - Goblins, Stompy, Combo Decks:
Legacy demands a fast paced gameplay. Combo decks have consistent wins of about turn 3-4. Vial-Goblins and Threshold, with the introduction of the most under-costed creature WOTC has created, aka Mr. Tarmogoyf, has brought the pace of aggro to a consistent win of about turn 3-4.

I am pretty certain that no deck is built without regards to any two of these dominating fast-clocked decks. UW control has Orim's Chant, Wrath of God. MBC has Damnation, Infest, and Engineered Plague,Stax builds has either Propaganda/Magus of the Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge as answers to aggro.


2. Pseudo Clocks - Control and Prison Decks
Legacy sees a number of control/prison decks, namely MUC, Landstill, and Solidarity control/combo decks, and the prison decks such as Angel/Armageddon/Suntower Stax prison-variants which seek to slow and lock down the opponent.

Despite the perceived notion of a long gameplay, note that these decks fall under what we term as a pseudo-clock. All control/prison decks run some form of a pseudo acceleration. Force of Will is one example, seeing play among most blue-based control/combo decks. FoW and Daze, all act as free counterspells, which technically puts itself on the mana-less clock.

On the prison-side of life, Stax runs Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere, slowing the clock virtually, while "pseudo-ly" playing a faster clock. GeddonStax, in particular, upon a resolved Armageddon, resets the game clock in favor of the Stax player, with a preboard of locks ready and available to counter any threats.


3. Card Advantage:
We all know why Ancestral Recall is so good. We all know why first-turn Brainstormis often regarded as Ancestral Recall's wife. Card advantage is the main engine behind Faerie Stompy, combo-oriented Solidarity decks and stalling-oriented Landstill decks. Having more cards than your opponent is definitely a plus since you are always "turns" ahead in planning and expectation. Black offers an alternate route: discard, which generates virtual card advantage. 1st turn Hymn to Tourach, Duress, or a well-placed Cabal Therapy wrecks most decks when unexpected, and hence the success of Pikula decks in Legacy.


4. Virtual Card Advantage:
We mentioned that discard is a means of gaining virtual card advantage: you have more cards than your opponents. However, Legacy sees a distinct way of opening one's hand to an unlimited hand size: the Graveyard. (Yawgmoth's Will is thus banned for a reason.)

The success of Breakfast/Bridge/Ichorid/Dredgedecks lies in the dirty exploitation of the graveyard, dumping their entire library into the graveyard, and then playing the selective spells from the graveyard. An unprepared player facing such decks will therefore suffer defeat in a matter of turns.

In addition, new decks based on the concept of Loam Control (based off the card Life from the Loam) has become recently popular and effective in Legacy. In particular, Aggro Loam Control is currently being played, utilizing synergies with Terravore and Countryside Crusher. Another "combo" involving the graveyard exploits the synergy between Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland/Cycling Lands/Man-Lands. Such is the example of a virtual card advantage generated by the card-disadvantaged decks in Stax.

Graveyard hate has never been so intense, and Legacy is the perfect format with regards to the diversity of decks exploiting virtual card advantage through the graveyard.



Why did we spend some time discussing these four topics? In general, Legacy has been dominated by decks based around these four concepts, with the more established decks mentioned above in bold. Each has its unique strength/clock/strategy and it is often difficult to determine which deck stands out as the best deck. We could all claim that Flash-Hulk was one of the best undefeated decks in Old-Legacy, but that is because the format was broken by the Interaction of Flash and Protean Hulk. Ingenious deck designers have brought back a Pseudo-Flash-Hulk deck, and more commonly known as Mossnought and I am excited to see this deck spring to life and be viable as a competitive deck.

In summary, the same general rules of deck-strategies apply:
- Aggro overruns Control, but loses badly against Combo
- Combo overruns Aggro, but loses badly against Control
- Control overruns Combo, but loses badly against Aggro.

My motivation for developing Rakdos Stompy has been inspired first by the work of Faerie Stompy. Faerie Stompy has one of the fastest aggro clock in the game, and contains control elements in the form of FoWs and Misdirection. A beautiful deck on its own, but it has problems against Dragon Stompy running Blood Moon. In general, Dragon Stompy has a clock almost faster than the clock Goblins tend to run, but it has the problem of running out of steam fast, or be heavily punished by bad mulligans. However, if the pieces fall into place, Dragon Stompy outraces any clock in the format, while slowing the clocks of other decks by disruption in the form of Blood Moons and Chalices.

I shall cut short my descriptive motivation for developing Rakdos Stompy and proceed to explain why I view Stompy as generally the better decks to make in Legacy (following the logic of the four points raised above)





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B: Why Stompy?
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1. Fast Clocks:
Stompy accelerates near God-speed, cheating the game by beginning the Mana-curve around 2-3 mana, kudos to cards like Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors. Faerie Stompy lacks the acceleration as seen in Dragon Stompy in the form of Seething Song and Simian Spirit Guide, and hence has a slower clock than Dragon Stompy.


2. Pseudo Clocks:
The viable success of Stompy in general lies in the power of Chalice of the Void. This card wrecks Threshold, destroys combo decks such as Iggy and Salvagers-Game, and stops Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, Pithing Needle, Orim's Chant, Meddling Mage, Engineered Explosives, Brainstorm, and EVERYTHING from 0-2cc. In the right deck, such as Stompy and Stax variants, Chalice of the Void is easily a game-changer.

Winter Orb, Blood Moon and Trinisphere are also possible inclusions in various build of Stompy that slow down the clock for the opponents, even though they are running an insanely fast clock.


3. Card Advantage:
All stompy builds lack card advantage, with exception to Faerie Stompy and some variants of Angel Stompy. Dragon Stompy has the worst card advantage, and hence faces heavy problems against Pikula decks utilizing heavy hand-disruption. Perhaps, the only savior is Sword of Fire and Ice, an insanely powerful equipment in Dragon Stompy, that fits perfectly in the mana-curve, but creates problems regarding to Hellbent.


4. Virtual Card Advantage:
All stompy build has an indirect virtual card-advantage. Stompy build has a high-threat density, generating huge numbers of threats that have to be dealt in a matter of 1-2 turns before chewing off the opponent's head. Hence, virtual card advantage is generated as we maximize our capabilities within a short period of turns. Perhaps, the better way of viewing virtual card advantage is to think of the utility and efficiency of each card.

Stompy cards are usually highly synergistic and undercosted (undercosted in a Stompy-sense since we have insane acceleration). However, all Stompy build lack graveyard removal. Faerie Stompy relies on Trinket Mage to fetch Tormod's Crypt, which saves itself against yard-based decks. Dragon Stompy, however, has a serious time against yard-based decks but often cheats with the help of Blood Moon. However, decks such as Ichorid are usually unaffected by Blood Moon, and hence potential losses may be incurred.


Taking note of the strengths and weaknesses of the Stompy-decks above, I finally introduce:






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C: Rakdos Stompy
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by CrZ


20 Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
6 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain

11 Mana Acceleration:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song

8 Board Control:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

18 Creatures:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Mindslicer
4 Arc-Slogger

3 Equipment/Pumps:
3 Loxodon Warhammer

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Powder Keg
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cranial Extraction

WTF?? Loxodon Warhammers? Mindslicers?

Here's an analysis on why the above choices.







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D: Analyzing Rakdos Stompy
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1. Manabase:
This mana-base is close to optimal for a dual-color Stompy. Fetch lands needlessly thin out the deck, avoiding dead land draws which are highly unnecessary in the nature of Stompy.

Tombs and Traitors, together with either Mox or SSG lands a potential turn one Unmorphed Gathan Raider, a Phyrexian Negator, a Trinisphere, or a Loxodon Warhammer. Hence, there are seldom dead plays in Rakdos Stompy as compared to possible dead starting plays with Dragon Stompy.

The essence of acceleration holds faithfully to the build of Dragon Stompy, which has seen insane drops such as first turn Arc-Slogger and Rakdos Pit Dragon through the help of Seething Song. This deck is capable of such first turn drops as well.

The dual color of Rakdos Stompy makes it legitimate to run Explosives since a huge number of threats in Legacy show up in the form of 2cc, namely Tarmogoyf, Suppression Field, Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, etc.

Introduction of black into the typical Red Stompy has a number of reasons, which will be explained later when we run through the motivation for the card list in the deck. Basically, black gives Stompy to have access to Leyline of the Void, which solves the graveyard problem against decks like Loam/Ichorid/Stax/Breakfast. Black also provides access to Engineered Plague, which ends the game against Landstill (name Soldiers), and goblins (name Goblins - DUH), Angel Stompy (name Cleric to take out Mothers and Soltari Priests), and Warren-based Iggy/Charbelcher (name Goblins).


2. Board Control:
The board control in Rakdos Stompy is much less effective than Dragon Stompy. We lack either Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, or Trinisphere. However, we shall see later that Rakdos Stompy utilizes more on the concept of virtual-card advantage and a fast clock to win the game.

Instead of mana-denial strategies, Rakdos Stompy is capable of heading straight into clearing the board with the use of Engineered Explosives. As argued, Explosives is an inclusion (MD or sideboard) due to the ability to set the bomb at 2 sunburst counters, hence solving a diverse number of problems which mono-blue Faerie Stompy and mono-red Dragon Stompy are unable to handle. The 2-inclusion of both Powder Keg and Engineered Explosives makes the deck more versatile in answering the problem of Meddling Mage or Cranial Extraction.

In this deck, after some suggestions by Apex (MTGSal), 3Spheres should be run in this deck since all playable spells are 3 mana or above, with the exception of Chrome Mox, which is usually a dead draw anyway late-game, and often acts as a buffer permanent for the Negator.


3. Creatures:
Once again, we see the faithful creatures of Dragon Stompy such as Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon in Rakdos Stompy. A first off explanation for the card choices:

Gathan Raiders:
Think of this card as a 5/5Grinning Demon with no upkeep drawback and a free morph. A second turn 5/5 beater with possible equipment boost makes this a huge and fast threat against decks that can't arrive at a fast answer. Also, it's morph cost is not a cost at all, but a synergistic way to dump useless and uncastable cards (such as Negator vs burn decks) into the yard, while achieving Hellbent.

Rakdos Pit Dragon:
Yes, it's vulnerable to Swords and Bolts, but that's what Chalice is for. Even if they remove it from play, you have delayed a turn for your opponent as your other big threats chew upon their saddened faces. However, if the opponent lacks an answer to this creature, they will find themselves shaking your hand in a matter of 1-2 turns. Why not a four-inclusion in the deck? It costs double red, and doesn't go too well with Rakdos Stompy that begins the game with a black mana-base and relies on SSGs and Chrome Mox's for red sources.

Arc-Slogger:
Inarguably the best creature that Dragon Stompy decks want to see in an opening hand. Turn one plays are entirely possible, and this guy ends the game a turn earlier, and answers desperate aggro threats efficiently. The only problem running this in Rakdos Stompy is the inability of Rakdos Stompy to generate lots of red mana to activate the ability as compared to Dragon Stompy. However, we usually only use his abilities between 2-4 times, but this is no big deal since that's about the limit we can use his ability anyway.

Phyrexian Negator:
This card has been said to be one of the best black creatures ever. Solo-ing combo/control decks, he puts a 4-turn clock on all plays, and in Rakdos Stompy, he may as well end the clock in two turns. He is a risky card to play early in the game against an unknown opponent, but that is the nature of taking risks. Most first turn hint the nature of an opponent's deck and if you can tell they are playing either burns or gobs, then feed Negator to Gathan Raiders or to a Mox. Otherwise, drop it first turn and start chewing.

The only reason this guy wouldn't see play would be either in a burn deck, or a goblin deck that uses gempalm incinerator or heavy Siege-gangs. However, you should be fairly protected by random bolts with 3spheres and Chalices out. Swords doesn't matter since you would gain five life and waste their Swords on other big threats in the deck.

Mindslicer:
CrZ must be out of his mind. WTF is this loser doing here. This is what has motivated me to develop Rakdos Stompy. Dragon Stompy loses terribly against mono-color control decks. The reason being: control decks have Card Advantage. In our analysis of the meta in Legacy, we realized that Black offers Pseudo Card Advantage.

This is where Mindslicer comes in.

If you bolt this guy, you lose your hand. This is usually not a concern for Rakdos Stompy since our hand is almost empty (and should be in order to maintain Hellbent) when we cast this. The only removal is by Swords, which should be banished by Chalice. Bounce is another answer for this guy although it slows control decks down, Mindslicer, therefore generates a confusing threat for the opponent: He's not that huge, but in a deck full of threats, we would definitely want to remove it, but in doing so, the opponent loses the chance to deal with future threats with an empty hand.

Mindslicer also adds another 4/3 beat to the clock, and with an equipment, he may as well push through for the win at times by himself. In summary, this is one-hell of a card. It's crappy in all other decks, but I have seen him to synergistically fit perfectly in the Hellbent goal of Rakdos Stompy. Another plus to this guy is that he causes so much confusion for the opponent, and adds another possible threat on the board.


4. Equipment/Pumps:
Rakdos Stompy, like Dragon Stompy, has such a high threat density that Equipments are usually a win-more situation. It has been tested multiple times that Sword of Fire and Ice is a great equipment that fits perfectly in the mana curve of Dragon Stompy but usually affects Hellbent. I would definitely encourage SoFaI to be run in Rakdos Stompy for the same reasoning that it's a great equipment, but I have recently saw that Loxodon Warhammer may be a better equipment in terms of the threats already present on the board.

Unlike SoFaI and Jitte, Warhammer has no direct removal against creatures. However, Warhammer provides trample, which is a great plus for an already dangerous Hellbent Gathan Raiders. SoFaI is in generally better on Rakdos Pit Dragon but we usually see plays where opponents would more willingly remove the Pit Dragon than the Raider, leaving a 5/5 that is chumped block by a Goblin. Warhammer grants trample and allows Rakdos Pit Dragon, Mindslicer, and even Simian Spirit Guide to swing in for the kill. It also works perfectly on a Hellbent UNPUMPED Rakdos Pit Dragon, giving you a potential of at least +12 life every turn and -12 life for your opponent. A great card to consider, but others may choose to run Jitte and SoFaI.


5. Sideboard:
Lose the first game, win the last two games. This is entirely true. We have learned or will learn a crucial lesson in Legacy. The format is so rich and diverse in threats and strategies that no deck is the prime deck. That is, however, the beauty of Legacy. The intense multitude of insane plays and decisions that tie the essence of Magic together.

Here's a criticism for Dragon Stompy: Dragon Stompy has a terrible Sideboard. We can't really blame the deck since Red offers no solution to Enchantments and non-creature/artifact removal. Dragon Stompy, however, is brilliantly designed to take off any deck that isn't control. In particular, it wrecks combo and multi-colored deck with the lone card Blood Moon.

A detailed analysis of Rakdos Stompy's possible Sideboard list is huge. As usual, there are no enchantment removals, but these are answered by MB Explosives and Kegs. Cranial Extraction when used correctly, shuts down an entire deck with the help of Chalices. Leyline of the Void kills entire yard-based decks and multiple draw later either pitches to Mox or is simply played as an extra copy. The inclusion of Blood Moon follows from the success of Dragon Stompy, and the use of Engineered Plague answers the problems of Decree-Landstill (name Soldiers), Empty the Warrens-Iggy (name Goblins), and Goblins.

Other possible sideboard for Rakdos Stompy include:
- Ingot Chewer: Artifact hate that have high cc, in particular against Stax-heavy metas.
- Boil or Flashfire
- Price of Glory: This kills Solidarity and MUC
- Magus of the Moon: Extra Blood Moons which turns decks like 43.dec into 43.mountains.

Phew! Finally, I'm close to the end of this descriptive motivation for me developing Rakdos Stompy. A few things to note:







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E. Matchups
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In development. Help me test this deck out!








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F. Conclusions
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1. Clocks and Speed
Rakdos Stompy has almost the same clock speed as Dragon Stompy and uses big creatures, usually dropped first/second turn, to kill the opponents fast.


2. Gameplay diversity
Rakdos Stompy is more versatile in answering board problems than Dragon Stompy. It is able to run Explosives at 2 sunburst counter, which is vital in the format. It has a wider diversity of sideboard choices, which has answers to almost all deck-formats, and most importantly to yard-based deck, using the best anti-yard card possible: Leyline of the Void. Rakdos Stompy has a better answer to board elements, in the form of Kegs and Explosives. This, in addition, totally destroys Affinity variants.


3. Deck Synergies
Rakdos Stompy generates virtual card advantage through Mindslicer (yes you can laugh again LOL), and you could always do the same using Hymn to Tourach, Duress, or Cabal Therapies, but I like Mindslicer since he fits as a big 4/3 creature for only 4cc (a possible turn-one drop even). He fits into the Hellbent theme on how this deck operates. In general, Rakdos Stompy maintains Hellbent much more consistently and effectively than Dragon Stompy.

4. Mana base and consistencies:
Rakdos Stompy is less color-consistent, as are all multi-colored deck. However, I have designed Rakdos Stompy to cheat by providing a black-based mana start, and obtaining red mana through SSGs and Mox's (you would usually want to pitch red for Mox due to the larger pool of red cards we have). The deck is pretty consistent. The use of fetchlands, if the game drags long, prevents dead land draws and constantly puts new threats on the board. Also, siding in 3Spheres should not disrupt the mana curve since all non-basic lands would become mountains, which forms the bulk of the deck, and since swamps take up the majority of the land count, we would not be black screwed as well (technically, unless you're dealing with heavy LD Pikula)

5. Deck Development and Card-pool Potentials:
Rakdos Stompyhas a greater pool of card choices for future development. Who would have knew that wizards would print a better time times better version of Lobotomy (i.e. Cranial Extraction)? In particular, Shadowmoor has recently shown as the release of Demi-God of Revenge, which in my opinion doesn't really fit in this deck, but the general idea I'm trying to say is that Rakdos Stompy is more prone to rigorous card evaluation and choices that it may be made even stronger.


Please comment and I am excited to share my thoughts, and hopefully we can work out a new variant of Stompy. Always keep in mind the focus and meta of Legacy, and from there, start with a vantage point on where and how the deck should be constructed and played.

Thank you for reading this post!
Last Updated March 13, 2008

raharu
03-13-2008, 01:41 AM
!!! Long OP. That's rare. Thank you for a detailed explination on a different path of stompy. This has een tried before, with less than stellar results, using things like Avatar of Discord, other things. Now comes the point where I mention Dread Slag.

I'm done.

GGoober
03-13-2008, 02:46 AM
Wow, didn't know such a card existed! Dread Slag's pretty insane in this deck!

The only issue I'm worried is, combo players may kill/nerf it easily by forcing you to draw, but that card has definitely caught my attention! And Dread Slag can't really be played first turn since Seething Song first turn gives 5R, and no B mana, but turn two might be a possible play!

I tried Avatar of Discord. She's too much card disadvantage for a deck that needs a good first hand to spin off.

Tacosnape
03-13-2008, 02:50 AM
So you decided to take Dragon Stompy, take out the two most format-crippling cards in Legacy, weaken the manabase, and replace bad equipment with good equipment, just for the sake of running Phyrexian Negator, who is bad, and Mindslicer, who's actually better than people think but you'll never cast him?

At least run Grafted Wargear as your equipment if you're going to run Mindslicer. They're sick together.

EDIT: Also, Avatar of Discord + Tomb/Chalice isn't a combo, and Dread Slag would be awesome if he weren't unplayable off Seething Song (And therefore unplayable in your deck.)

GGoober
03-13-2008, 03:21 AM
Well, technically if you read the reasoning in detail, Dragon Stompy tends to rely heavily on a God-hand, and aggressive mulligans for a good starting hand. Dragon Stompy does really well if it goes first turn and explodes in the opponent's face. Much of the gas comes from reliance on a resolved Seething Song to play spells that cost more than 3cc.

This deck list has much more plays just based about 3cc, which is easily attainable by eight 2-mana producing lands plus eight one-mana acceleration. It consistently make turn one plays, of which all of them a threats.

About Negator, there has been much debate about his viability in Legacy. I do agree the format is proliferated with burns, but a Chalice at one stops all burn spells unless the deck is running Gempalm incinerators (i.e. goblins, which can be dealt from Engineered Plagues), or from burn decks, which gets shut off by Trinisphere.

And you DON'T play Negator if you play against a heavy burn. Like i said, pitch it to Gathan Raiders or Chrome Mox. Negator is however, a God-send against combo/control, just as much as Raider is. And like Dragon Stompy, your lands are pretty much useless late game, unless you're facing against Ghostly Prisons or Tabernacles, or using them to pump Pit Dragon.

And you cast Mindslicer, which usually sees play around turn two, by then your hand is empty while you opponent still holds to an average of 4-6 cards. They're at a loss while you just beat them in the face. I actually do like your suggestion of Grafted Wargear, since it pumps damage cheaply and has synergy with Mindslicer. It's not a good equipment in general for the other creatures though.

The only motivation for playing RB Stompy is the fact that the sideboard is more versatile, and it resists discard/control decks much more efficiently than Dragon Stompy. Dragon Stompy basically has a crap match up against control, and although Blood Moon solves a huge number of problems, it still doesn't solve decks like Ichorid/MUC/MBC/Landstill that utilizes wishboards to clear permanents. Splashing Black provides Leylines against yard-decks, Engineered Plagues against Landstill (soldier), and much better match up against goblins, and Cranial Extraction solves quite a number of problems other decks present, with the help of trinisphere and chalice (for instance, Cranial Extraction naming either Armageddon or Ghostly Prison greatly increases the chances for Rakdos Stompy to win against Geddon Stax, a tough match for Dragon Stompy usually).

I never said anything about Dread Slag. It was an interesting concept, and turn one 5cc drops in Dragon Stompy are possible although really relies on an ideal hand that contains a 2-mana land + Mox + Seething Song + 5cc spell. Drawing 4/7 cards relying on such coincidence is a gift-send, but not very consistent.

So I hope you understand my goals for DEVELOPING a deck, and engage in a discussion, rather than just ignoring it without any consideration. That is the whole point of this forum anyway.

Maveric78f
03-13-2008, 05:52 AM
I have not the time to read it all. Just noticed an error :
Price of Glory is not a problem at all for Solidarity.

Zork
03-13-2008, 05:51 PM
If you are going to splash a color into Red Chalice Aggro, at least make it green for Tarmogoyf, and then you can:

- Continue to run Moon effects at least in the board because some decks will still scoop to it even if you have 4 more dead cards main.

- Run Krosan Grip in the board, which seems a little better than Cranial Extraction at answering artifacts. Alternatively, you could board in Sex Monkey to remove artifacts and leave a 2/2 body behind.

- You could then potentially run Call of the Herd in the traditional Sulfur Elemental spot.

- You get Choke out of the board, to really hate on blue decks. Potentially, you can also run Loaming Shaman.

- Run Goyf. It may sound stupid, but he will at least match you opponents goyfs.

If you insist on running black, though, consider the following:

- Shriekmaw to beat opposing creatures.

- Delirium Skeins or Last Rites (probably Skeins since it is more useful as a topdeck).

- Plague Spitter over E Plague. He does almost the same thing, but he also beats in.

- Perish in the board. You will do better with this than Powder Keg, and maybe even EE. If you are scared of artifacts, run Rack and Ruin or Smash or more discard (like Skeins).

EDIT: Almost forgot: I'm not actually saying a splash is better than mono-red, just that I've looked at various splashes and most in-depth at green and black.

Phantom
03-13-2008, 06:43 PM
If you are going to splash black in DS, I say do it for the right reasons (Shreikmaw and Demons Jester) instead of the wrong ones (Negator and Mindslicer).

Also this:

And you cast Mindslicer, which usually sees play around turn two, by then your hand is empty while you opponent still holds to an average of 4-6 cards.

tells me you are either lying or you don't play your own deck enough. There is no way in hell Mindslicer hits on turn two with any frequency. The fact that you need a mox to do so tells me that you're doing it less than half of the time, and that doesn't even take into account all the other issues. And the notion that you are getting :b::b: with any consistency is laughable. You even said you need more red mana than black mana, but let's be optimistic and divide your moxen and fetches right down the middle and find out you run a whopping 10 black sources. 10! Dragon Stomp runs 10 mountains, 4 mox, 4 Spirit Guides, AND 3-4 Seething Songs and still occasionally has trouble hitting :r::r:.

And the idea that your hand is empty on turn two with any frequency stinks to high heaven. I know you CAN do it, I just think it's more like 10% of the time.

All I'm saying here is the reason you are getting grief instead of help is that you're trying to blow sunshine up our collective ass. Admit your decks weaknesses, explain your choices, listen to our answers,and have testing data to back you up.

What we can agree on is that black offers some kick ass sb options. What I can't get behind is improving the control matchup. It's not going to happen in a deck that spends so many resources getting a fattie into play, and certainly not on the back of Mindslicer. Blood Moon was about the best slot we could ever hope for against control (except for maybe a kick ass draw engine which is unrealistic). It can lock the opponent out from playing spells while being very difficult to remove. Mindslicer is neither of these. He dies to StP and all he'll give you is 4 life (Chalice can stop it, but never count on landing Chalice against control since it happens so rarely against them). My other concern is that if the opponent does have to do something about him and Wraths, or heaven forbid, Deeds, we are left with little to nothing and one of the worst topdecking decks ever while they propably are packing cantrips and draw spells, and god forbid manlands.


Edit:
@ Zork: Plague Spitter over E. Plague??? Isn't the whole reason to run Plague to improve the Goblins matchup and to stop EtW? Spitter does both of these horribly. Goblins removes him with ease, and Warrens tokens can still swing in and kill you the turn you dro him. Also, he doesn't stick around and prevent future Warens shennanigans. Lastly, he dies to himself, which isn't exactly tech with equipment, which hurting you, which isn't exactly tech with Tombs.

Tacosnape
03-13-2008, 09:47 PM
Phantom's right. Shriekmaw and Demon's Jester >> Mindslicer and Negator.


I have not the time to read it all. Just noticed an error :
Price of Glory is not a problem at all for Solidarity.

...

Oh my god. That's officially the funniest interaction between a card and a deck ever. I wish more people played that back before my resets went on Ebay. I'd kill to combo out with that on the board and watch them sputter "But...but...it...but...."

Zork
03-13-2008, 10:13 PM
Edit:
@ Zork: Plague Spitter over E. Plague??? Isn't the whole reason to run Plague to improve the Goblins matchup and to stop EtW? Spitter does both of these horribly. Goblins removes him with ease, and Warrens tokens can still swing in and kill you the turn you dro him. Also, he doesn't stick around and prevent future Warens shennanigans. Lastly, he dies to himself, which isn't exactly tech with equipment, which hurting you, which isn't exactly tech with Tombs.

Spitter kills the same goblins Plague would except only on your turn, and running E Plague against storm combo is awful. You just run moons (from the board), Chalice, and Trinisphere. Also, Spitter does not kill himself - he has an ass of 2 and plagues for 1. I wasn't suggesting he was strictly better, just something to consider since he also carries equipment (which, if you are running Warhammer or Jitte negates his self damage). I'm not saying run it, I'm saying consider it. Hence the phrase including said word.

Edit: The more I ponder, the more I think that anything costing double-black should not be included.

Willoe
03-14-2008, 11:56 AM
First of all, nice try to an alternative to Dreaded DS. However, I have some questions:

Like all the other said, why are you running creatures that, well they are pretty good (including mindslicer), but when there are better alternatives? Negator gets blocked by goyf all day, and since that goddamn green fucker has been printed, my former favorite creature has lost its power. Enough with that whining.

Seriously, does it really have to be stompy? Why not run other alternatives to crumble decks with disruption pieces and chalices? Dragon Stompy is really the only incredible stompy deck. The problem with newer lists is:

The core idea of stompy has been tried a hell lot of times. As far as I know, nearly every card with 3cc+ has been tried for stompy of all colors. This is a great suggestion to a new stompy deck, I just think that it doesn't make the cut (or whatever people say).

To end my post, I would say that there might be other alternatives like some red death way. All right, it's so much more awesome to singe your library and your opponent's face at one time with slogger than it is to beat for 5 with Nantuko Shade. But I just think that every kind of stompy deck has been tried, and Faerie and Dragon are the only decks who are really good (the latter is, like I said, freaking awesome), and most of the cards from the legacy pool already has been tried. Sorry for that.

Am I right in this "statement"?

GGoober
03-14-2008, 09:09 PM
Thank you guys for all the feedback!

Don't get me wrong if I'm not trying to hear you out, in fact I DO want to hear you out and get more suggestions to improve the deck.

Mindslicer is a pretty crappy creature, but the thing is other than bounce or Swords, it really is a disruption on the board. Wrath of God/Damnation in control decks won't really help much considering that their hand will be disrupted. I do agree that if Mindslicer is even played, then an important part of the deck will be top-decking competition. I am having my doubts about the deck, but I am definitely considering options.

One may picture this deck as disruptional than Red Death, and less explosive than Dragon Stompy. It falls between the two decks in my opinion. It might be good, might be bad, but right now, it seems like the feedback is all bad, which is acceptable since this is the first posting and development of the deck. Who knows, this idea might just be discarded and there's definitely no harm for trying out.

Shriekmaw is a good idea, and he's fairly powerful with recursion like Sword of Light and Shadow.

Is Negator really that bad? I guess he only goes well with Suicide, which plays heavy hand-disruption and removal to keep Negator on the board. Perhaps, that's the reason why he doesn't fit at all in this deck.

@Willoe, there has been some interesting BR Stompy in Extended, utilizing Mindslicer and Grafted Wargear. The only reason why I felt stompy needed some disruption is because it really sucks against Mono-color control and combo. Faerie Stompy is perhaps the most versatile Stompy in the format, but shouldn't we always try to look for new innovations? I agree that most of the card pool has been tried and perhaps, this is the hardest part of even thinking of a feasible deck to be played in Legacy right now. Thank you again for your help and I'll keep those in mind.

rufus
03-14-2008, 10:10 PM
Phyrexian Scuta - another black creature with 'pop'
Hoarder's Greed - you were asking about draw - this should get four cards for 4 life on average, which is not bad. I'm not sure whether clashing favors you or the opponent though.
Unmask - If you're looking to go hellbent this can save you from a counter.

Goaswerfraiejen
03-15-2008, 09:51 AM
Did you ever consider Jagged Poppet? While the BR part of its casting cost may be a little difficult, it's no more difficult than BB for Mindslicer, I think, and it has a similar (but superior, in my opinion) effect on the game-state.

GGoober
03-16-2008, 03:21 AM
Here's an update after everyone's feedback. I took out the double-colored cost creatures and tossed in more disruption. The only double red now is Rakdos Pit Dragon, which is run as a 3-of, to prevent overdraw.

27 Mana Base:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
6 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
3 Simian Spirit Guide

13 Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Stupor
2 Delirium Skeins


17 Creatures:
4 Phyrexian Negator/Phyrexian Scuta/3cc Black drop
3 Shriekmaw
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger

3 Equipment/Pumps:
3 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Powder Keg
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cranial Extraction

This seems more Red Death, without the burns, which are compensated by the use of Shriekmaw/SoLS recursion for creature removal. This build runs more aggro-threat than Red Death, and runs its mana curve at 3cc, hence facilitating the use of Trinisphere/Chalice to lock down decks with lower mana. We don't get the best discard spell Hymn in this deck since we can't access double B from the manabase, but since this deck operates on 3cc comfortably, Stupor and Delirium Skeins are useful alternatives (Skeins is included as a 2-of for future top-decking, which benefits this deck since it wants Hellbent).

As much as I have seen Loxodon Warhammer win games by gapping the life between you and the opponent with the amazing trampling effect on non-trampling creatures, after observing more, I realized that a lot of decks run StP. So Sword of Light and Shadow might be a better choice. It gives +2/+2, so technically giving a pseudo-pro-red from burn spells by making your creatures bigger. It allows recursion with Shriekmaw, or retrieve countered or destroyed creatures to generate an advantage. Since most of the creatures are fairly big threats in this deck, it would be quite a good choice. Also, assuming that we ran Negator, Pit Dragon, Shriekmaw, then these would benefit from SoLS since they already have inbuilt evasion/trample.

The deck is definitely less explosive than Dragon Stompy and less disruptional than Red Death, but it is more aggro-aggressive than Red Death and more-versatile and hand-disruptional than Dragon Stompy. Perhaps this is why it would suck like crap, but maybe it is just a possible hybrid idea for possible tinkering?

Willoe
03-16-2008, 02:05 PM
No, Arc-Slogger is also double-colored. Is that consistent enogh? Anyway, this looks a LOT better, but can't you find some better discard? I know thoughtseize gets hit by chalice and shit, but I'd at least consider it.

Bog Down, Pulling Teeth, Scandalmonger, Thunderscape Battlemage (well, maybe not), Chains of Mephistoteles (against control) might be worth a look?

To sum up, I'd like to say that this is a MUCH better deck! :D

EDIT: Post 100! ;P

GGoober
03-16-2008, 02:12 PM
Ah, crap yeah Arc-Slogger is double R. I think perhaps running something than Arc-Slogger is better in this deck. I think the difficult thing in splashing a color to Stompy is the fact that we run the 2 mana lands, which makes it harder to get double color, as compared to Red Death which doesn't run 2mana lands, and relies on Badlands, Mires and other sources to pay for double color.

Oh well, give me some time to think through the cards and get up a better list, but meanwhile keep throwing in ideas! I actually think Bog down works well but Delirium is more effective with 3 discards for just 3cc and helps maintain Hellbent during bad Top-decking (it's a good top-deck card in this deck).

I don't think Thoughtseize will go well in this deck since it's 2 life on top of 2 life per tomb tap. Also, the 1cc doesn't go well with Chalice. I might run other alternatives though but thanks for the suggestion!

Another issue I had with deciding on SoLS is I don't want to make this deck too graveyard-dependent since part of building this deck is to not rely on the graveyard to avoid possible yard-hate. Almost every deck has some form of recursion, and hence Leyline of the Void is just getting more and more important in the format for those playing black.

Willoe
03-16-2008, 03:31 PM
I don't think that you have enough red mana sources to run the Slogger effectively. There might be some better alternatives, like Jagged Poppet, Demon's Jester, Dread Slag, or even something without hellbent that is just plain good.

Daggerclaw Imp?

Trench Wurm?

Mercenary Knight?

Drinker of Sorrow?

Vengeful Firebrand?

Cinder Giant?

Veteran Brawlers?

Flametongue Kavu?

Some of these cards may be crappy, but I don't have more time to gather the cards... Anyway, good luck!