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AceofAllan
03-15-2008, 01:00 PM
So I wanted to make a decent deck out of less than expensive cards. Also, a good friend of mine has a mono white deck that uses a bit of clerics, so I wanted to design something that could be the "evil equivalent."

So here goes:

Lands (20):
14 x Swamp
3 x Tainted Field
3 x Starlit Sanctum

Creatures (26):
4 x Cabal Archon
4 x Dark Supplicant
4 x Headhunter
4 x Rotlung Reanimator
4 x Soldevi Adnate
3 x Shepherd of Rot
2 x Vile Deacon
1 x Scion of Darkness

Spells (14):
4 x Dark Ritual
3 x Oversold Cemetery
3 x Urborg Justice
2 x Sadistic Glee
2 x Phyrexian Arena

The deck pretty much centers around Cabal Archon. His ability creates a 4 life swing for just one black mana. With the Rotlung Reanimator, it generates a token army. Oversold Cemetery makes sure I always have clerics to sacrifice, and with Phyrexian Arena, it's like drawing three cards every turn. Sadistic Glee works very well because I'm always putting creatures in the graveyard, so I eventually have a very large cleric to sacrifice to Starlit Sanctum. Vile Deacon is another cheap way to get a large sacrifice for the Sanctum. Urborg Justice is the best creature kill for this deck because of how many creatures I'm killing of my own every turn.

I'm debating the Tainted Field. Every once in a while, I need to gain life with it and Starlit Sanctum, but usually if that's the case, I'd be better off making my opponent lose that life.

I kind of added the Scion of Darkness as an afterthought, and I'm still not sure if it's worth keeping him. One of the best things about it, oddly, is that it serves as a distraction. Having him in the deck makes my Dark Supplicants take a lot of heat because people fear a 6/6 with trample. It detracts from the real threat of the Cabal Archon.

I'm sure there's room for improvement, but I know I'm not good enough to see it.

Slag
03-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Since you have few one drops aside from dark ritual inspired nonsense, you might want to add some cheap disruption like thoughtseize, duress, or (and it gets a bonus for synergy with rotlung) cabal therapy. I'd probably play withered wretch over the soldevi adenate, because it's an efficient two drop and can keep tarmogoyf manageable. Urborg justice and sadistic glee look like fun cards that may work for you, but there is a lot of potential for them to be dead cards. I might bump up to 4 cemeteries, since they seem so important to your strategy.

Eldariel
03-15-2008, 01:21 PM
Let's see, here's what I'd suggest:

// Lands
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
15 [6E] Swamp (2)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [LE] Withered Wretch
1 [LE] Scion of Darkness
4 [ON] Rotlung Reanimator
4 [ON] Cabal Archon
3 [ON] Shepherd of Rot
3 [FE] Order of the Ebon Hand (1)
4 [LE] Dark Supplicant

// Spells
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Reanimate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)

It's fairly strong with cards that actually do something (it plays basically every good black Cleric in the game) and packs quite a punch. Volrath's Stronghold is really the only non-basic land I'd consider; Starlit Sanctum is strong, but generally something like Wasteland is just stronger in this format. Reanimate is just awesome for whatever your discard hit and for when you draw your Scions and want them alive, or when you want to recur Rotlungs. It's just great, period.

Some discard gives you means to disrupt other strategies, and means to enable your Scion and Reanimates. If I made a change to that build, I'd consider some removal such as Smother, but that's a solid starting point. Basically, Adnate and Headhunter just aren't as strong as Order of the Ebon Hand and Withered Wretch, and the deck has a weird curve so it wants quite heavy acceleration.

AceofAllan
03-15-2008, 01:35 PM
Try to remember this is a casual deck. Wasteland really won't do me any good, and I'm not playing against Goyfs (Price range and all that).

I like the suggestion of Reanimate, but it reminded me of Unearth. Most of my cards are 3 mana, so it might be a great add.

I know it has problems with mana acceleration, which is why I'd like to keep the Soldevi Adnate.

Cabal Therapy would be great, but those are hard to come by. Also, since I play with the same friends all the time, I know their decks pretty well, so it's almost an unspoken rule of ours not to use that kind of card.

Eldariel
03-15-2008, 01:58 PM
Try to remember this is a casual deck. Wasteland really won't do me any good, and I'm not playing against Goyfs (Price range and all that).

There're other big guys, of course. As far as Wasteland goes, I can't know what kind of Casual you play. You know the best, of course. Sanctum is decent, but Volrath's Stronghold is the first card I'd go for.


I like the suggestion of Reanimate, but it reminded me of Unearth. Most of my cards are 3 mana, so it might be a great add.

The prime reason I'd prefer Reanimate is, it can grab whatever meat ends up in opponent's graveyard, and if you happen to draw Scion, you can cycle it and Reanimate for a 4-mana 8-life beater.


I know it has problems with mana acceleration, which is why I'd like to keep the Soldevi Adnate.

You don't need mana acceleration on turn 3, you want it turn 1. Hence why I suggest Ritual/Mox set-up.


Cabal Therapy would be great, but those are hard to come by. Also, since I play with the same friends all the time, I know their decks pretty well, so it's almost an unspoken rule of ours not to use that kind of card.

Meh, just play Duress or Thoughtseize then. Seize is of course better, but more expensive, so if you can't pick it up, Duress is good. There's also Ostracize which might suit a casual environment better; picking creatures for Scions and Reanimate is handy.

Cavius The Great
03-15-2008, 05:53 PM
Let's see, here's what I'd suggest:

// Lands
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
15 [6E] Swamp (2)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [LE] Withered Wretch
1 [LE] Scion of Darkness
4 [ON] Rotlung Reanimator
4 [ON] Cabal Archon
3 [ON] Shepherd of Rot
3 [FE] Order of the Ebon Hand (1)
4 [LE] Dark Supplicant

// Spells
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Reanimate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)

It's fairly strong with cards that actually do something (it plays basically every good black Cleric in the game) and packs quite a punch. Volrath's Stronghold is really the only non-basic land I'd consider; Starlit Sanctum is strong, but generally something like Wasteland is just stronger in this format. Reanimate is just awesome for whatever your discard hit and for when you draw your Scions and want them alive, or when you want to recur Rotlungs. It's just great, period.

Some discard gives you means to disrupt other strategies, and means to enable your Scion and Reanimates. If I made a change to that build, I'd consider some removal such as Smother, but that's a solid starting point. Basically, Adnate and Headhunter just aren't as strong as Order of the Ebon Hand and Withered Wretch, and the deck has a weird curve so it wants quite heavy acceleration.

This list looks cool. I personally would play Thorn of Amethyst over Hymns but I guess that's just preference. Besides that, the deck looks fun. :smile:

I'd also run things like Cursed Scrolls or Aether Vials.

Isamaru
03-15-2008, 09:44 PM
-4 Dark Ritual +1 Land +3 Phyrexian Arena... you don't need 8 fast mana effects at the cost of card disadvantage.

If anybody wants to discuss Clerics, sometime I'll post my BW Cleric list that was actually quite good, but not good enough (I thought) to submit to the CaNGD contest.

raharu
03-15-2008, 11:50 PM
The deck really wants Oversold Cemetery, and possibly Cabal Coffers (both of which work well with the deck and fit the theme). I might take out The Moxen for Cemeteries.

Cavius The Great
03-16-2008, 10:34 AM
The deck really wants Oversold Cemetery, and possibly Cabal Coffers (both of which work well with the deck and fit the theme). I might take out The Moxen for Cemeteries.

Cabal Coffers would be horrible in this deck. When in any instance do you need massive amounts of mana? This a weenie deck where the curve isn't over three mana, this isn't a control deck that relies on slow mana intensive cards to win.

@Isamaru - I prefer Cursed Scroll over Arena but I guess that's just my preference. Both are decent ways to generate card advantage. I also think that Aether Vial should definitely be tested.

AceofAllan
03-18-2008, 06:51 PM
Alright, here's something I've always had trouble with: Mana balance. How many lands do I need in this deck?

I'm making a few of the changes that have been suggested, but the overall mana cost has not changed. I've always kept to 20 lands as a personal rule, but I'd imagine this can be optimized... What would you suggest?

Eldariel
03-18-2008, 07:03 PM
~22 seems right for this deck, although 23-24 would be better. Ritual screws up those numbers, which is always annoying as it counts as a mana card but doesn't stick around so you can't count on it to reach certain threshold. You need 3 mana each game so you need to ensure that'll happen.

AceofAllan
03-18-2008, 07:08 PM
~22 seems right for this deck, although 23-24 would be better. Ritual screws up those numbers, which is always annoying as it counts as a mana card but doesn't stick around so you can't count on it to reach certain threshold. You need 3 mana each game so you need to ensure that'll happen.

So you're saying 22 lands? Or do you mean 18 lands and the 4 Dark Rituals?

raharu
03-19-2008, 01:36 AM
Cabal Coffers would be horrible in this deck. When in any instance do you need massive amounts of mana? This a weenie deck where the curve isn't over three mana, this isn't a control deck that relies on slow mana intensive cards to win.

@Isamaru - I prefer Cursed Scroll over Arena but I guess that's just my preference. Both are decent ways to generate card advantage. I also think that Aether Vial should definitely be tested.
When the games go long (as casual games do0, the ability to go MASSIVE sacing recured clerics all over the place is a good thing to have. That, and a 2 of Drain Life couldn't hurt when the board is locked.

Cavius The Great
03-19-2008, 10:10 AM
I did some testing on MWS with this build and all I can say, is Aether Vial is an auto-include. I usually set it at three so I can cast a free Cabal Archon and have avaliable mana for his activation cost. Cabal Archon is very similiar to Arc Slogger in this deck and Aether Vial just makes him that much better.

Eldariel
03-19-2008, 11:48 AM
So you're saying 22 lands? Or do you mean 18 lands and the 4 Dark Rituals?

22 lands.

syssc9
03-22-2008, 11:21 AM
I also, have a cleric deck that I play in casual-multilayer. It is similar in many ways, but also differs greatly. Mine also centers around Cabal Archon, but contains both Black and White clerics. It has won at large casual tables (5+ players) frequently. Since I have already received some good advice from this thread (Volrath’s Stronghold – thanks Eldariel!) I thought I would try to give something back. This deck’s early survival is pretty much assured by life gain and attack nullification. Even so, it looks innocuous enough early game and has just enough blockers that other players tend to ignore me for the first 3-5 turns. While everyone else is casting early creatures and setting up, this deck gains a shit-ton of life. Later creature attacks can often be ignored as the life gain continues. Remember, this was designed for casual big-table multilayer.

Here’s the list:

Early defense and life gain:
4 Children of Korlis
4 Soul Warden
3 Auriok Champion
4 Order of the Ebon Hand/Order of Leitbur

Mid/Late game Defense/Attack & more life gain:
4 Doubtless One
1 Ancestor’s Prophet (my wife’s addition – she loves this card)

The Combo:
4 Cabal Archon
4 Rotlung Reanimator
3 Conspiracy***

Other cards
4 Vindicate
4 Ambition’s cost

Land:
3 Plains
9 Swamp
2 Tainted Field
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland

61 cards does not bother me at all for casual, and can easily be rectified by dropping either the Prophet or a Champion.

Looking at the list 2 problems should be obvious – both black and white cards with double colored casting cost, and all the expensive lands. However, the duals and fetches solve the double color problem so I guess they stay. Mutual Solution (except for your wallet!) I wasn’t using either the Deltas or the Scrubs, so in they went. One thing I learned from setting up the manna for this deck – just about any mostly black deck can benefit from a couple tainted fields, er, tainted whatever. I haven’t done it yet but I will probably be pulling a Swamp or 2 for Volrath’s Strongholds.

This deck also hinges around the Rotlung/Archon combo, but Conspiracy is the lynch pin – it’s just plain naughty! All your Zombie tokens suddenly become Clerics and replace themselves when sacked – Twice, if you have 2 Rotlungs in play (nasty old plainswalker peers over top of glasses and snickers evilly, slight drool seen at corner of mouth). And the life gain pushes you completely out of reach, if you have a Soul Warden or 2 in play. Your ability to deal damage is limited only by your own black manna count (2 per) and the opponents ability to block massive Doubtless Ones. FUN!

AceofAllan
03-23-2008, 04:49 PM
This deck also hinges around the Rotlung/Archon combo, but Conspiracy is the lynch pin – it’s just plain naughty! All your Zombie tokens suddenly become Clerics and replace themselves when sacked – Twice, if you have 2 Rotlungs in play (nasty old plainswalker peers over top of glasses and snickers evilly, slight drool seen at corner of mouth). And the life gain pushes you completely out of reach, if you have a Soul Warden or 2 in play. Your ability to deal damage is limited only by your own black manna count (2 per) and the opponents ability to block massive Doubtless Ones. FUN!

I had not even thought about conspiracy. That card is incredible for my deck for the reason you said with the Rotlung/Archon thing. I originally wanted to do my deck as black and white, but the Archon was limited by black mana, and I don't have the pockets for fetch and dual lands.

Have you considered using Initiates of the Ebon Hand to up your black mana supply?

syssc9
03-23-2008, 08:14 PM
Initiates is fine. You might even want to consider Bog Witch, although she is not a Cleric. If the combo is setup and you have a few cards in had, she can end the game. For my own part, with the ridiculous amounts of life I generate, I am usually in no hurry. It's kind of fun when other players are scrambling madly to break up the combo so as not to be the next to die when I untap (and making themselves my next target in the process.) I never put more than one Archon in play at any given time, reserving extras in hand to combat this eventuality. Same for Rotlungs - I only drop a 2nd to the board when I have one in reserve in hand. This deck is unfortunately pretty susceptible to mass removal, but I am looking forward to trying out Eldariel's suggestion to see how much difference the Strongholds will make.

Jourdelune
03-25-2008, 01:41 PM
Casual Multiplayer with alot of creatures and sacrifice outlet?

That screams for:

Lifeline

Color= Artifact Type= Artifact Cost= 5 US(R)
Text (US+errata): Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play and another creature is in play, return the first creature from that graveyard to play under its owner's control at end of turn. [Oracle 2003/02/01]
* It works for all players and has errata to remove the "your graveyard" text. [bethmo 1998/10/02]
* It checks to see if there are any creatures in play controlled by any player at the time the creature is put into the graveyard. If there are, it will put the creature back even if there are no creatures in play at the end of turn. [Urza's FAQ 1998/10/05]
* The creature comes back even if Lifeline leaves play after triggering, but before it resolves. [Urza's FAQ 1998/10/05]
* It brings the card back even if the card was a creature only due to a spell or ability. It comes back as if newly cast, however. [WotC Rules Team 1998/10/18]
* If more than one creature is in play and all the creatures in play go to the graveyard at once (such as with Wrath of God), then all of them are returned at end of turn. [WotC Rules Team 1998/10/18] This is because all "leaves play" triggers that check the state of the game check the game state at the time right before the card left play. [D'Angelo 1998/11/17]
* It fails to bring the creature back if the creature is not still in the graveyard at the end of turn. [D'Angelo 1998/10/12]
* If multiple creatures are coming back, they come back one at a time, not all at once. This is because Lifeline triggered once for each creature and set up a separate "at end of turn" effect for each. [D'Angelo 1998/11/17]
* There is no way to get an infinite loop with this card. This is because "at end of turn" triggers that happen after you start dealing with this turn's "at end of turn" triggers will wait until the following turn to be played. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01]

Sweepers Immune. Comes into play or goes to graveyard effect or sacrifice effect abuse that card a lot.

If that card would be 3cc, Legacy metagame would never been like it is actually. ;)

Jourdelune

syssc9
03-25-2008, 03:02 PM
Absolutely lovely - and I am pretty sure I have 3. The little fat bald guy loves you!

AceofAllan
03-26-2008, 08:12 PM
What does everyone think about adding Ascendant Evincar?

Big mana, but Adnates should take care of that.

syssc9
03-27-2008, 12:10 PM
I like the Soldevi Adnate! The Evincar leaves me cold - I like Vile Deacon better.