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Djenin
03-16-2008, 10:28 PM
I hope this not a bad place to post this since this deck doesn't really feel like a completely new deck to me, but i couldn't find an existing thread to post in.

I have been playing around with this build lately and was wondering if it could be viable to take a more disrupting approach, instead of using counters (and blue) as is usual.

I have tested it against goblins, ugb ***** and some random aggro decks. Didn't have a chance yet to test more but so far the results have been quite good.

The deck builds up threshold quite fast. The petals make for some explosive plays, make goyf bigger and again add to ********. I've chosen duress over thoughtseize since the deck hurts itself enough already as is.

If there's an existing, more appropiate, thread for this please direct me to it.


// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [UNH] Swamp
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Werebear

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [B] Tranquility
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Cheers

raharu
03-16-2008, 11:11 PM
Looks... Strong. Don't you think that 20 lands with 4 Petals is a little heavy? What made you think of dropping Blue? I think that the cutting of blue is a bad idea, but don't let me stop you. For more ideas, I would find the UAC thread in the established forums. I personally would run some number of Extirpates MD, almost exclusively for FoW and other countermagic. May I sugest some Tombstalker?

edgewalker
03-16-2008, 11:17 PM
I guess the first question I would ask is how often and quickly you get threshold. Blue gives you the option to use cantrips which basically gives you a 1 for 1 trade for cards. Yours don't, you use them and they're not replaced. I guess I'm just skeptical about how good your deck is playing threshold creatures over the regular B/g aggro control suite.

Djenin
03-16-2008, 11:25 PM
Do you think I could get away with playing 18 lands? I haven't had too much problems with mana-flooding, but then again I haven't played all that many games yet with the list.

I starting thinking of cutting blue since i wanted a more stabile mana-base, thus making a 2c ***** deck instead of the usual 3. Black offers both draw and disruption, part pro-active and part reactive. I also wanted to make the deck more explosive and dark ritual lets me do just that, especially in combination with the petals.

Extirpate was originally in the maindeck but i cut it to the sideboard and replaced them with more removal. I'm not sure if i return it to md how many i would run to make them viable and not too random.

Tombstalker would work, but i think i'll only play it if i replace the ***** creatures and go for different beatsticks. While an early tombstalker is gg many a time, it's anti-synergy with ***** keeps me from running it for now.

edit: So far the ***** creatures have been great. I reached ******** fairly quick in the games i played but i might have been somewhat lucky with it, more testing will tell.

Zilla
03-17-2008, 12:09 AM
I starting thinking of cutting blue since i wanted a more stabile mana-base, thus making a 2c ***** deck instead of the usual 3.
The thing is, blue offers inherent stability by letting you filter your draws with cantrips. Although you'd be adding a third color, your overall stability is likely to increase because of this.

If you're going to go the two color route, then something more like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8220) seems like it would be a better direction to go, because it's a great deal more disruptive and it's less vulnerable to graveyard hate.

Isamaru
03-17-2008, 12:20 AM
Trust me, 4x Dark Confidant. You might be thinking "I'll never want 2 out" ... don't worry, you'll barely ever have one out, and if you do, you've already won.

I think a quote runs around The Source that refers to Dark Confidant as "dying to a mean look or a dirty fart."

Thehunter820
03-17-2008, 12:52 AM
I personally thing cutting blue is a bad idea, you lose Counterbalance, Force of Will, Daze, Cantrips, and the ability to get thresh quickly. However you can mainboard more creatures/kill cards, but I think you should add in some cards for faster thresh getting.

Pulp_Fiction
03-17-2008, 02:59 AM
Personally I would cut Ghastly Demise and replace them with Snuff Out. Also this deck is B/G so you should try and fit Pernicious Deed in somewhere because it is just that good, like take out the Diabolic Edicts for 2 Deeds and Chainer's Edict. Also, you play a lot of black sources Nantuko Shade is almost a must for a deck like this. Just my thoughts, hope this helps.

Shtriga
03-17-2008, 07:51 AM
I've toyed with a similar concept in the past (when odyssey was still T2 legal) but I could never make it work. I hope you can, since goyfs, bobs, and other cards obviously have the potential to make it so much better than back then

diffy
03-17-2008, 09:24 AM
Bg ********

I like the idea, although I think that it'll be strictly worse than normal NQG: Counterbalance is just such a beast.

Some ideas:

For what the build looks like, I can echo the sentiment that you seem to not reach Threshold fast enough. This problem is easy to solve though: just play more fetchlands and disruption/discard and less cards that are only used situationally (removal) or don't go to the yard directly after use (Jitte).
Also, I don't really like the Lotus Petals in here: you already have very few ways to create card advantage and so you can't really afford the card disadvantage for a small tempo gain. Also, Lotus Petal is pretty useless because you don't need more than 2 mana to function well. It just doesn't make a huge difference if that Tarmogoyf comes down turn 1 or turn 2. It is quite different with Dark Ritual though as that allows for more broken plays, especially since you play a lot of Discard. Speaking of Card Advantage: play 4 Dark Confidant. That guy just never lives so that you always want to draw more than one exemplary. Also, he's like your best threat against Control which should be one of the worse matchups.
-4 Lotus Petal +1 Dark Confidant
In regards to your discard suite, I'd definetley replace Duress with Thoughtseize: the life loss is just irrelevant because it either comes from Fetchlands (negligeable as you'll only hit 1-3 in a game) or from Dark Confidant. Now the later can really inflict you some damage but you always have to keep in mind that if Dark Confidant ever reveals you a card, your opponent doesn't have removal (you can just ride your creatures to the win) so that you're just going to out-card advantage them and win in a short time. Remember: Card Advantage + opponent lacking creature-control = you win. Also you always have to remember that with a non-Counterbalance aggro control deck you always want to be the aggressor and that if your opponent forces you onto the defense, you've basically lost. That means that you just ignore your life total as long as it's not in the critical spectrum to play the best spells: if your opponent gets to swing back on you, you can either ignore it or you've lost because you don't have removal/critters of your own.
-4 Duress +4 Thoughtseize
Your manabase doesn't look that thought-out: you don't need so many basic Forests as green is only a small splash for Nimble Mongoose/Werebear.
I'd also play one more fetchland as they are a cheap way to feed the graveyard. Also, I think that Wasteland could be a nice addition to the deck: you don't need a lot of mana and you can create quite some pressure so that the manadenial could really hurt your opponent, especially your control opponents. You can then just build up pressure in the first few turns (Discard, Critter) and then keep them off removal mana for a while. With Wasteland in the list, 20 permanent mana-sources should be about enough as you don't play cantrips to dig for them. Playing more fetchies than targets is also no problem: you want to play aggressively and draw as few lands as possible once you've reached a certain amount of mana.
-3 Forest -2 Swamp -1 Bloodstained Mire -2 Polluted Delta +2 Windswept Heath +2 Wooded Foothills +4 Wasteland
Next up, I'd reconsider your removal suite. First of all, Ghastly Demise is awesome and all: it's mana efficient and kills nearly everything - Diabolic Edict is not so much to my liking as it just doesn't always hit the most important target, especially if you topdeck into it. I'd much rather play a few Smothers to take care of those things Ghastly Demise can't handle. I'm aware that Edicts hit untargetables like Nimble Mongoose but those are nearly always not the target you want to hit: they're just too small to keep your guys in check and the little bonus of the Edict does nowhere near outweight its unreliability.
-4 Diabolic Edict +3 Smother
I'd also reconsider your creature base, especially Werebear isn't that scary: he just gets outclassed by a lot of other creatures and hits for 'only' 4 damage. I urge you to test one flying finisher like Tombstalker. He might seem dis-synergetic with all your Threshold guys and with Tarmogoyf, but he's only concipated as a lategame finisher where this will not matter: your opponents graveyard will make sure that Tarmogoyf stays big and you'll have more than enough cards to boost Nimble Mongoose. I can also recomend the use of Nantuko Shade: he's a standalone threat that never becomes a dead card as he can trade with anything in the lategame. He's also just what you want against control as they now have to trade their removals 1for1 with guys like him. A full playset is probably excessive as more than one don't get along very well, but I'd at least test a full set and see how it goes. I'd think that the same theory applies for him and for Dark Confidant: he never lives so that you want as many as possible to eventually have one stick and do his dirty job. If one sticks, he's a standalone threat so that you only have to protect him. The manabase can easily support him now too.
-2 Werebear +1 Tombstalker +4 Nantuko Shade
I also want to question the use of Umezawa's Jitte. For sure it is a powerfull card but I think that you'll always end up using all your mana for more important things (such as casting threats or disruption) so that the rather manaintensive Jitte will just clog up your hand too often. Also, you only play a limited amount of creatures so that you'll often find yourself not able to make full use of the card: it'll just sit around without a creature and be a dead card that doesn't create pressure. I'd rather fill those slots with more disruption or creatures.
-2 Umezawa's Jitte +2 Duress +1 Tombstalker

Here's a rough draft of a slightly tweaked list:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Manasources (20+4)
3 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
2 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
2 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/5.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)
4 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/be/en/279.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

4 Dark Ritual (http://magiccards.info/be/en/7.html)

// Beater (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose (http://magiccards.info/od/en/258.html)
2 Werebear (http://magiccards.info/od/en/282.html)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
4 Nantuko Shade (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/74.html)
2 Tombstalker (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/91.html)

// Card Advantage (14)
4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/81.html)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
2 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Hymn to Tourach (http://magiccards.info/fe/en/12.html)

// Removal (6)
3 Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html)
3 Smother (http://magiccards.info/on/en/170.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Yixlid Jailer (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/93.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/163.html)
1 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)


For the sideboard, you draft looks quite good but there is still some room for improvement:
Tranquility is almost strictly worse than Tranquil Domain, isn't it? There're just not a lot of Enchantments that aren't handled by it and it costs a full mana less (it's instant too). Reverent Silence could be an option too but the 6 life gain for your opponent counteract your aggressive gameplan.
-2 Tranquility +2 Tranquil Domain
Engineered Explosives... why play them if you could play Pernicious Deed instead? In the matchups where the Explosives would be good, Pernicious Deed would be better, with maybe the sole exception of Empty the Warrens tokkens but you already have a decent game against combo. Also, if you can play Pernicious Deed, why would you want to play Tranquil Domain or Tranquility? Last time I checked, Pernicious Deed was as devastating if not more to decks like Enchantress while being more broadly usable (Affinity, aggro-control etc)
-3 Engineered Explosives -1 Tranquil Domain +4 Pernicious Deed
The last Tranquil Domain then doesn't make a lot of sense anymore: you can board in 4 Pernicious Deeds and 2 Krosan Grips against nasty Artifacts/Enchantments which should always be enough. I don't really know that to do with that slot but I recon that you want some additional things to board in for the control and combo matchups as you only have Extirpate up to now. Winter Orb is decent at stalling control but I think that another Duress is better because its more broadly usable.
-1 Tranquil Domain +1 Duress
2 Engineered Plague don't make a lot of sense to me: you want them as early as possible against Goblins - and as many as possible. You also don't have a way to dig for them so that I'd either cut them completely or fit another 2 in. I think the best move would be to cut them and to replace them with Umezawa's Jitte which do something in the Goblins (and Breakfast) matchup where Plague would be good otherwise while still being aggressive and good in other matchups (random aggro, control etc.)
-2 Engineered Plague +2 Umezawa's Jitte
I also think that Yixlid Jailer is better than Tormod's Crypt in here: it doesn't hurt you and it is an additional clock. Also, you already have Extirpate to stop the very early nasty tricks of your opponent so that I'd rather have something more lasting than a Crypt in the other Graveyard-Hate slot.
-3 Tormod's Crypt +3 Yixlid Jailer

What you could also test is if one or two cool lands can be supported: especially Volrath's Stronghold and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth seem to be quite nice inclusions the first being a nightmare for aggro control (they just don't have enough removal) and control and the later being general tech with your Wastelands and fetchies.

Here're some more decks from which you might get some inspiration:
Eva Green (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8220)
Green Death (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6681) (especially some builds (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4148) with Quirion Dryad)
Baublestalker (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7605)

Willoe
03-17-2008, 10:02 AM
Hmm... Interesting to say the least.

I'd like to see Night's Whisper and some other card draw, so you can get some more card advantage/quality.

Can your mana base support Hymn To Tourach?

Is Jitte, as earlier mentioned really necessary? Sixteen creatures, 4 of them which can't be equipped, and are pretty big themselves doesn't need Jitte, or do they? (Hmm, it sounded a bit clunky, I know)

Even though it's antiproductive, what about Skeletal Scrying?

A SB'ed Chains of Mephistoteles, if you have it?

Other than that, I honestly can't think of anything that could be changed.

Good luck!

C-Aleric
03-17-2008, 12:19 PM
I like this. I had been writing a primer for a BG Thresh list. This was going to be submitted for the competition, but I got lazy.

Here is where I got my list, before I started slacking off.

BG Thresh (last revised Jan 8, 2008)

3x Wasteland
4x Bayou
2x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
1x Treetop Village
2x Open Slot
***********
Total: 22 Lands

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nimble Mongoose
2x Eternal Witness
1x Open Slot (I was testing Oona's Prowler and Shriekmaw)
***********
Total: 14 Creatures

3x Life from the Loam
3x Sensei’s Diving Top
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtsieze
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Darkblast
2x Unearth
1x Open Slot (was a Diabolic Edict, worked wonderfully with Deeds)
***********
Total: 24 Spells

So, this is very different from the lists posted previously. Mine is notable geared away from the very early game, unlike previous lists.

The open slots are debatable. They generally just become a copy of something already in the deck, or a metagame call of some flavor.

So, a lot of theory behind BG thresh has already been covered, so I'll add in some choice info:

4x Pernicious Deed – The heart and soul of this deck. When BG gets into trouble, it puts fat creatures in the way, until it can drop the all mighty Deed, and blow the board up. Maindecked needles are very bad for this deck. However, this deck runs a very low curve, and can fill the board up after Deed’s very fast. The idea, is to Deed, then fill the board within' the next two turns with Goyf, Goose, and anything else that beats face.

3x Sensei’s Diving Top – Absolutely incredible in this deck. This is what makes Darkblast playable, and good. It enables dredge simply by tapping. So, look at the top 3, if they’re bad, we can dredge them away with one of our two dredge 3’s. We can give creatures -2/-2, which is a large advantage against Goblins. Top with fetch-lands/cyclers also allows this deck to have card selection unrivaled by most GB strategies, and a lot of U, even.

3x Darkblast – This slot, in this deck, isn’t very debatable. This is necessary against goblins. This is also necessary against Goyf (to win the Goyf war). The secondary function, is of course a dredge engine. You can EoT blast one of your Goyf’s with next to no drawback, and you can then dredge again. Sometimes, it’s important. With top, and some open mana, this card can be a one-man wrecking crew.

2x Unearth – People have been yelling at me for a long time to cut this card, but I can’t do it. It cycles, making it good with Loam and Blast, and that fact alone, makes it pretty good in this deck. Pernicious deed seems very counter productive to the strategy, but the idea is to scare, explode the board, and win.

1x Treetop Village – Seems like a random slot. This card “sort of” justifies my 2x Swamp and 1x Forest configuration. However, with dredge and loam and such, sometimes this card is exactly what it needs to be. Trades with an opposing Mongoose, and factories (depending on how many they have), can kill a Goyf with Darkblast and Top at almost any point in the mid-late game. This is one of those slots that can easily become anything else, but wins lots of games just because it keeps finding ways to come back.


So, I'll give the strategy behind how I like to play this deck. You spend your first couple turns disrupting and clogging up the board. Your deck makes Goyf's big all on its own, so if you're playing against Goyf's, be sure you're going to win the board eventually. If you can set up Loam with a P-Deed, you're in good shape. If you can set up a Waste-lock, you're doing well.

This deck, is designed to recover fast. After deed, you have Loam, and Unearth, Stronghold, and Witness to get ready to win.

The Open slots are generally some sort of spot removal (excluding the lands). I didn't get around to adding a sideboard, but this list is very very fun to sideboard with.

I think my most recent Sideboard looked something like this:

3x Krosan Grip
2x Ghastly Demise
3x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Tombstalker
3x Mishra's Factory (sometimes loam recursion simply wins games)

So, this way, against Counter-Top, you can bring in some a fat flier, some good answers to it, and more discard, and Extirpate.

Notably bad matchups: Most heavy burn decks, combo that doesn't use ETW all the time. Stompy/Eva Green.

If your meta isn't full of these decks, this can be a beast.

Mister Agent
03-18-2008, 04:33 AM
I actually have tried this idea before and the main thing that brought alot of issues is this deck actually has to force itself to obtain threshold. While conventional threshold builds(with blue) generally can obtain threshold naturally.

This of course causes an major set back in the your deck's overall efficiency. In other words, you will not always be able to acheive the same kind of value that will enable you to get an edge in a course of a large tournament.

Cavius The Great
03-18-2008, 11:08 AM
I hope this not a bad place to post this since this deck doesn't really feel like a completely new deck to me, but i couldn't find an existing thread to post in.

I have been playing around with this build lately and was wondering if it could be viable to take a more disrupting approach, instead of using counters (and blue) as is usual.

I have tested it against goblins, ugb ***** and some random aggro decks. Didn't have a chance yet to test more but so far the results have been quite good.

The deck builds up threshold quite fast. The petals make for some explosive plays, make goyf bigger and again add to ********. I've chosen duress over thoughtseize since the deck hurts itself enough already as is.

If there's an existing, more appropiate, thread for this please direct me to it.


// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [UNH] Swamp
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Werebear

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [B] Tranquility
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Cheers

I think this list needs more Seal of Strength. Seriously, you need enchantments to feed Goyf and a Seal of Strength can save a Confidant from burn spells, as well.

raharu
03-19-2008, 01:49 AM
I think that Loam and possibly Darkblast are must-includes in the deck. What does the general popluace think of Golgari Thug in the deck?