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joostp
03-18-2008, 11:17 AM
Hey there!

I thought I'd start off with one of the lists I'm currently testing and tweaking.
Basically this deck is about a 2-card combo inside a mono blue control shell.
All you have to do is built up your manabase and wait for the keypieces to come.
After you hit at least 4 Islands you can play Mana Severance both to filter your deck so every card is a useful topdeck and as a setup for your combo.

Anyway, here is the list:



// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
16 [OD] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [TE] Mana Severance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [4E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [LOR] Ponder
3 [MR] Fabricate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Chill
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [FD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle


The sideboard still is pretty random.
Any thoughts?

Note:
I'll post a matchup analysis soon.

Nihil Credo
03-18-2008, 11:48 AM
This reminds me of one of my favourite decks of all time, Feldman's Staff MUC (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9823.html). It was a T2 deck, but I think the Staff-manlands approach could work as well or better than Belcher-Severance in Legacy:

Pros:
- Manlands are an alternative win condition on their own, cannot be countered (although they can be killed in response to Staff), and you can run more than four of them to increase the combo consistency.
- Can bring the artifact count high enough to make TfK good
- It rearranges your entire deck instead of simply removing all lands, meaning that a resolved Staff activation leads to a victory with near 100% certainty.
- You can sideboard into Darksteel Colossus or Sundering Titan as alternative win-conditions, once their creature removal has been boarded out.

Cons:
- Staff doesn't pitch to FoW
- Higher mana cost to execute the combo (3+4+3 instead of 4+2)
- Swords to Plowshares isn't a dead card anymore


A potential list could look somewhat like this:

9 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mutavault

2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Proteus Staff

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
5 Spell Snare / Force Spike mix

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives

Cavius The Great
03-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Why do you run Spell Snare? What two mana cards are you anticipating on countering? Chalice for 1 doesn't hurt you much, am I missing something? True Believer and Gaddock Teeg also do not see much play...

Zilla
03-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Moved to New and Developmental.

Arsenal
03-18-2008, 01:52 PM
Why do you run Spell Snare? What two mana cards are you anticipating on countering? Chalice for 1 doesn't hurt you much, am I missing something? True Believer and Gaddock Teeg also do not see much play...

There are TONS of 2cc spells in Legacy that I would love to be able to counter for U on the draw. Spell Snare is probably the 3rd best hard-counter behind Counterspell and FoW.

xsockmonkeyx
03-18-2008, 02:35 PM
- You can sideboard into Darksteel Colossus or Sundering Titan as alternative win-conditions, once their creature removal has been boarded out.

You could also replace a Tundra with a Trop and play Simic Sky Swallower. It wouldnt be unheard of to be able to hardcast him. I guess he also pitches to Force, w/e.

rufus
03-18-2008, 02:57 PM
I've been rolling this around my head as a UG deck using Recross the Paths or Scapeshift, and a bunch of the Thresh suite.

Anusien
03-18-2008, 03:15 PM
You're almost completely dead to a resolved Counterbalance at 2. Also, Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives are both probably good cards to have.

I like how Staff and Belcher both dodge Counterbalance. This combo is actually seeing 1.x play right now.

joostp
03-19-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm actually sceptical about the Proteus Staff approach..
Although it is a good thing to have back-up winconditions when you lose Belcher, I like the resiliency of only running basic islands (and of course a few fetch land).
It appears to me that you will need at least one or two extra turns to "go off" when comboing with the staff rather than mana severance.

If I take it the mana severance way, would it be a good idea to include a countertop package?
Another option is to create a toolbox with fabricate.

Another question: Will the Vedalken Shackles hold back aggro long enough or should I look for an alternative?

Cavius The Great
03-19-2008, 10:14 AM
There are TONS of 2cc spells in Legacy that I would love to be able to counter for U on the draw. Spell Snare is probably the 3rd best hard-counter behind Counterspell and FoW.

I realize that Spell Snare is a good card. I just don't see it stopping something that prevents you from winning. That was the main point I was trying to make.

Dilettante
03-19-2008, 10:20 AM
I realize that Spell Snare is a good card. I just don't see it stopping something that prevents you from winning. That was the main point I was trying to make.

Counterspell, Daze, Counterbalance (because it still counters your counters and dig), Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Null Rod, Winter Orb, True Believer, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg.

Lego
03-19-2008, 10:45 AM
Daze

This is, of course, still the #1 reason to run Spell Snare.

Here's my really old thread about the Proteus Staff approach:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3529

Dilettante
03-19-2008, 10:47 AM
This is, of course, still the #1 reason to run Spell Snare.

I'm not thinking. I need my mind clarified by the zen of a 3 Wood. I think the Proteus Staff approach is much more reliable. There is simply too much hate for a card like severance in the late-game. Chalice is growing in popularity, and you only have 3 cards that can remove it. However, it doesn't really hurt to 1-of to at least offer the threat of such...

Pulp_Fiction
03-19-2008, 04:48 PM
Hey there!

I thought I'd start off with one of the lists I'm currently testing and tweaking.
Basically this deck is about a 2-card combo inside a mono blue control shell.
All you have to do is built up your manabase and wait for the keypieces to come.
After you hit at least 4 Islands you can play Mana Severance both to filter your deck so every card is a useful topdeck and as a setup for your combo.

Anyway, here is the list:



// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
16 [OD] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [TE] Mana Severance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [4E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [LOR] Ponder
3 [MR] Fabricate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Chill
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [FD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle


The sideboard still is pretty random.
Any thoughts?

Note:
I'll post a matchup analysis soon.


Ok, normally I hate any form of blue control cause it is just to damn boring to play, this however, looks interesting. I have a very intersting idea, why not turn it into a dual combo deck. For a while I have been looking for a deck to jam the Brainfreeze, 2x Sensei's Divining Top, Helm of Possession combo into, and it looks like it would fit in here.

Something like:

4x Belcher
4x Force
3x Mana Severance
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Helm of Possession (I would assume it would allow you to severance and combo off earlier)
3x Brainfreeze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Fabricate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Trinket Mage

1x Academy Ruins
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
13x Island

Again, this is untested, just an idea. With the addition of Countertop I think it makes this deck stronger and since Top is in here why not test out the Brainfreeze combo? Oh, just a not to anyone who doesn't know how this works, you resolve a Helm of Possession and that makes Sensei's Diving Top cost 0 mana, you activate a Top and put it into the top of your library, then you play a second Top and activate it, repeat for infinite storm, then Brainfreeze. Any thoughts?

raharu
03-19-2008, 05:39 PM
Can someone explain to me how the Staff combo works with out a creature in the MD? Do you just win because of an infinite loop or something rules-related like that?

Media314r8
03-19-2008, 05:52 PM
staff revelas card off the top of your library until it finds a creature, which it won't. Thus it reveals your entire library. Part of the ability's resolution is to put the revelaed cards on the bottom of your library in any order. Since you revealed your entire library, you can stack your deck with belcher, 20+ nonlands, win.

raharu
03-19-2008, 06:08 PM
And now that I feel like an idiot... Thank you, fine sir. Thank you :]

xsockmonkeyx
03-19-2008, 06:16 PM
4x Helm of Possession (I would assume it would allow you to severance and combo off earlier)

I believe the card you are referring to is Helm of Awakening. Helm of Possession is a really shitty Vedalken Shackles.

Cavius The Great
03-19-2008, 07:15 PM
staff revelas card off the top of your library until it finds a creature, which it won't. Thus it reveals your entire library. Part of the ability's resolution is to put the revelaed cards on the bottom of your library in any order. Since you revealed your entire library, you can stack your deck with belcher, 20+ nonlands, win.

I remember when this combo was Type 2 legal. Damn I'm getting old...

Pulp_Fiction
03-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Yeah, sorry, forgot the name. Helm of Awakening is what I was referring to.

joostp
03-20-2008, 04:10 AM
I think that dual-comboing would be a great idea.
The only downpart (in my opinion) is that you are getting more and more reliant on ANOTHER combo: Counterbalance + Top.
Playing only 4 FoW + 4 Counterbalance is a bit low I guess..

I immediately dropped the Staff approach after getting screwed by a single Wasteland 6 games in a row..

Pulp_Fiction
03-20-2008, 09:00 PM
Or, another idea would be to cut Counterbalance and put in more Trinket Mage, Cantrips, or Chrome Mox and turn the mana base into something like

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Crystal Vein (or City of Traitors but in this Instance I think Vein is better)
1x Academy Ruins
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
7x Island

Make the deck more like Breakfast or Solidarity in that it just goes straight for the combo with Force backup. Just a suggestion. I will test it out on MWS and get back.

Poron
03-21-2008, 07:46 AM
if we play the deck that way there are far bettere mono U combo

Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith, Donate + Illusion of Grandeur (and eventually Stifle now), etc.

The good side of this deck is its control power imho, but I like the idea to drive it more "colorless"

Powder Keg, Vedalken Shackles, Fabricate (and its toolbox: Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, etc.), many men lands also as WC...

joostp
03-22-2008, 01:17 PM
A toolbox would be nice but the main reason that this deck does what it does now is because of the high amount of straight control cards.
If Im going to run the same amount of counters as every deck does I could easily see a keycard getting countered.
Going dual-combo made me run into the same low-counter problem..
Countertop didnt turn out to be too good in this deck, although I would like to add a "colorless" toolbox.
Fabricate allows me to find any of these tools.

So basically Im back to something close to the 1st list I posted, what would be a good toolbox for Fabricate (and or Trinket Mages), which cards and how many copies?


Edit:
My meta is full with TES en Elves!
Threshold sees quite some play too.

Bourgeoise
05-18-2008, 07:38 AM
Here is the list I have been running and it has performed pretty well for me so far, I just got back from winning my local tournament with it:

Lands (18):

10x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand

Artifacts (15):

4x Chrome Mox
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Powder Keg
2x Vedalken Shackles
4x Goblin Charbelcher

Blue Cards (27):

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Mystical Tutor
4x Counterspell
2x Mana Severance
4x Counterbalance
3x Back to Basics
4x Force of Will

Sideboard (15):
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x BEB
2x Hydroblast
4x Propaganda
2x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall

The deck runs the mana severance/belcher combo in a strictly mbc build

Some notes on card choices and observations about the deck:

The original incarnation of this deck ran 4x daze in place of counterspell and I see it listed in the deck list on the first page here. Daze is a very bad card for this type of deck it has no synergy with what the deck is trying to accomplish. When first running the deck daze would counter the spell sure, but would cost me an entire turn since the first goal of this deck is to hit 4-5 mana sources on the board.

The mana base is set up running all 8 fetches for several reasons, the first being the obvious (to some people, I know there seems to be a big discussion over it at the moment) gain of deck thinning, next is the ability for the fetch to shuffle the library especially for use with the counterbalance and if you are trying to shuffle away extra copies of otherwise dead cards (extra charbelchers etc), the last reason is that the entire premise of the deck is to activate belcher with no lands left in your library, therefore thinning out land as much as you can in case you are having trouble getting mana severance to stick can help with random belcher activations.

Splashes have been brought up and I do not think they are necessary or if they would even be helpful to the deck. The only splash I might consider is a white splash solely for access to enlightened tutor in lieu of mystical tutor which would give access to belcher, cb, divining top, enchantment hate, etc.
At the same time I think this would be bad since going with a splash then makes the deck vulnerable to cards such as b2b, wasteland, and blood moon, blood moon especially is seeing more play maindecked and this deck is very dependent on its mana sources.

Lastly I would not run spell snare in this deck as it was mentioned on the first page because the card is so limited in what it can hit, I find the current counterspell package and counter/top to be more than adequate. Between FoW and chrome mox acceleration it should not be difficult to counter what you need to.

Any constructive thoughts on the deck? Sideboard help would be especially welcome.