[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Rood]

Okay guys gonna update the current Ur list and give you a breakdown of alot of tier decks currently in Legacy. Dreadstill has been forced to adapt to a new and faster paced aggro meta which I feel it can very well.

Youtube channel pack full of Dreadstill videos

https://youtube.com/channel/UCPqnUIsv69sOSbN6ImAYxeA

First off, my current list

UR Dreadstill by Rood

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Scroll of Fate
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 True Name Nemesis
4 Stifle
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Island
1 Mountain

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Dismember
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Abrade
2 Agent of Treachery
2x True Name Nemesis

UW Dreadstill by Fox


4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Noxious Revival
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Standstill
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
3 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Mastery of the Unseen
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Rest in Peace
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Humility

Card explanations:

Mana Base: Pretty simple concept here. Basic Islands + Fetchlands are savage with Braintrain/Top. Also Wastelands tend to be a valid way to disrupt the oponents mana base and help immensely under Standstill. The factories are also in here to chump random shit like Mongoose and abuse the Standstills as well. Duel is in here only for the sole purpose of EE for 2 in case you need to kill a Goyf or something.
Nought-Perhaps the most undercosted beater in the game next to Goyf. This is absolutely the heart and soul of this deck and he has the potential to just sometimes pull that "oops i win" game because he is so explosive.
Trinket Mage- Utility here is the key to this guy...He searches out Nought...EE, Pithing Needle, AND Top. He's helped in so many matches and for sure beat if he needs to.
Braintrain- Perhaps the most broken blue card in the format. Combine it with Trinket Mages and Fetchies and it's just nutty.
Daze- This card is a beating...With Standstill there's so many ways to abuse this card ripping 3 cards off the deck of your deck and Dazing your oponents goyf or Confidant.
Force of Will- No explanation needed. Sheer brokeness.
Stifle- Combo's with Nought...Counters so many random spells abilities like storm, Deed, EE, Wasteland. It's so versatile it's incredible.
Counterbalance- Most of the format ranges between 1-3 mana costing things so this card combined with Top can surely shut down the oponent.
Sensei's Divining top- I've won games just using this to dig for threats. It's wonderful when both you and oponent are in topdeck mode you will almost surely win. Counterbalance+this = game most of the time.
Pithing Needle- Answers so much stuff and can be grabbed with Trinket.
Standstill- This card is an absolute beating...most games i draw this in my opening hand I win.
Spell Snare- 1 Mana counters Goyf and Confidant/Counterbalance. Pretty good if you ask me.
Trickbind- Savage tech against control decks that aren't expecting it xP
EE- Blows up chalice, Goyf, also alot of random other stuff like Vial.

Sideboard- This I feel is the most important aspect of the deck and it's adaption process. This board is given flexibility to all the top decks in the format right now (Zoo, Bant, Merfolk, Goblins) I feel that in order for this deck to succeed it has to have a board geared to defeat these decks now as well as retaining power against the Tier 2s.




Matchup Analysis:

RUG- Favorable. They really have no outs to Dreadnought in the first game and post board we can bring in Dismembers/REBs/Pierces to really slow them down and blow up most all their threats they play.

Maverick- Slightly Favorable. I think postboard this match up becomes a lot easier to deal with since we get to bring in 3 Bolts and 3 Dismembers combined with our 4 Lavamancers. Quick thing to watch out for here is to try not to let Ranger resolve...as it can chump our Delvers all day with no drawback.

Ichorid- Unfavorable. We have very little ways to interact with Ichorid in G1 so unless we can find a dreadnought ASAP chances are you're going to lose. Postboard with 3 Crypts, 3 REB, and 3 Pierce you can maybe whether the storm but it's still a very difficult match up for this deck. One of the hardest for sure.

Stoneblade- Favorable. They really have no way to deal with our Standstill engine so you have to abuse it in this match up. We have factories that can kill their jaces when they are played and can sometimes shut down their mana base pretty hard. Post-board bring in 3 REB and 3 Pierce and possible Bolts depending how you feel. Overall I'd say this match up is pretty favorable for Dreadstill.

Reanimator- Unfavorable. Against like Ichorid, this deck has a hard time interacting with this deck mainly because they run alot of disruption and only truly have to resolve one spell to beat us. You can catch a break if they aren't running Iona for sure but even still it's a pretty tough match.

Sligh/Burn- Extremely Favorable. They truly have no way to deal with a quick Dreadnought at all so just try to slow down their onslaught and assemble him as soon as you can. Try to bait out their burn on your dudes so you don't have to eat so much of it to the face.

Show and Tell/Sneak attack- Favorable. We have a lot of ways to shut them out from being able to combo off really. Not to mention you can shut their mana base down extremely hard with Wastelands and Stifles. Post-board with REBs and Pierces it also becomes a lot more manageable for us too.

Rock/Suicide variants- Even. Literally this match up is a complete coin flip. Whoever wins the die roll normally in this match up is going to take down the round. Play the Standstill game if you can, but if not just ride out your Grims and Factories. Try to save Brainstorms if possible to negate their hand disruption.

CounterTop- Even/Slightly Unfavorable- Really CB/Top is a pain for this deck to handle. Thankfully for us, if we can get Delver down before it comes down it may be a lot easier to win. Factory is also stupid good in this match up. Post board you must bring in 3 REBs and 3 Pierce no matter what.[/B]



Sideboard guide- Here's a few tips i've noticed siding that may help you guys out a bit.


Delver (Draw)- OUT- 1x Dreadnought 2x Pierce, 1x FOW, 1x Standstill, 1x Daze, 3x Stifle IN- 1x Abrade, 2x Dismember 2x TNN, 3x REB 1x EE
(Play)-OUT 2x FOW 3x Pierce 1x Dreadnought 2x Stifle IN- 3x REB, 2x Dismember, 1x Abrade, 2x TNN

Breach (Draw)- OUT- 3x Lightning Bolt, 2x TNN, 1x Dreadnought, 1x Stifle IN 3x Surgical Extraction, 3x REB, 1x EE
(Play)-OUT 3x Lightning bolt, 2x TNN, 1x Dreadnought IN3x Surgical, 3x REB

Miracles UGW without CB (Draw) OUT- 2x Lightning Bolt, 2x Stifle 1x Dreadnought (or delver)IN- 3x REB, 2x TNN
(Play)OUT- 2x Lightning Bolt, 2x Stifle, 1x Dreadnought IN 3x REB, 2x TNN

Storm TES (Draw) OUT- 3x Lightning bolt, 1x Dreadnought 2x TNN IN- 3x REB, 2x EE 1x Abrade
(Play)-Same unless you see xantid swarm- +1 Bolt -1 Scroll of Fate

Dredge (Draw) OUT- 4 Standstill, 2x TNN 1x Daze IN- 3x REB 3x Surgical Extraction 1x EE
PlayOUT- 4 Standstill, 2x TNN IN- 3x REB, 3x Surgical Extraction

Show and Tell (Draw) OUT- 3x Lightning bolt 2x TNN 1x Phyrexian Dreadnought 1x Stifle IN- 3x REB, 2x Agent of Treachery, 2x Surgical Extraction
(Play)- Keep same unless you see xantid swarm- -2 Surgical +2 Bolt

[neckfire]

ok rood once again nice deck...and thanks for giving me the decklist a while back.to all you out there i will put a more detailed post up when i find my stinking testing notes.

[technogeek5000]

A quick suggestion that im see could help you out. I would replace a island for another off color dual to make explosives stronger. You dont realy lose much but you gain more ways to deal with problem cards. Also your Aggro loam MU is definately lower then that. You got lucky the second game against me and first game I made a play mistake and left myself open for a daze. GL with the deck.

[Rood]

It wasn't me at all you faced with Dreadstill it was my teammate(HammafistRoob). I'm going off of my own personal results with the deck. Another nonbasic could be possible I guess but I personally hate Blood Moon enough already as it is.

[Jaynel]

There was a list that ran Mutavaults over Wastelands - any comment on which is better?

[Rood]

There was a list that ran Mutavaults over Wastelands - any comment on which is better?

Yeah Jaynel, we did test them one tourny but we found without being able to shut off your oponent a specific colored mana (green) for K Grips in specific matchups you will almost certainly have a harder time winning. Wastelands just will win you so many matches simple for a random Stifle/Waste combo on their mana source or denying them of a Trop. To be honest though it was not testing iexcessively

[J.V.]

There was a list that ran Mutavaults over Wastelands - any comment on which is better?
I'll add to this one Rood. Neither or better yet, its a meta call.
Mutavault:
-Additional Beater under standstill
-Extra creatures VS. Goblins + other aggro

Wasteland:
-Tempo for the win denying things like green splashes etc is a great thing.

Basically:
More Thresh type decks, Wasteland is better
More aggro based decks like goblins, Mutavault is the way to go.

[maatn]

I've tested this list to play at a small tournament in Holland a few weeks ago. I found (in testing) that the aggro-MU's are bad to put it short. Also, since this isn't a landstill list (destined to control the game and win on the long term via man-lands and humility), it is basically a MUC-version with a faster clock through the nought-stifle chance. The difference with MUC is, that MUC is a lot more consistent. By that I mean, with MUC, the cards you draw are almost always good at any time. With Dreadstill, there are a lot of cards you don't want to see in most occasions.

For example, I've found that against aggro, you don't get to draw any cards off a standstill besides the first one. Possibly due to bad luck, I always drew lands, dreads (no stifles/trickbinds) or other random useless cards after turn 3. When testing showed me that especially the DS MU is horrible I decided to modify the list or play something else... (a meta-call, DS is highly popular at the moment. Playing a deck that loses or has an unfavourable MU against it, is unwise)

So I modified the list, by replacing the standstills with Ponder's. Ponder works great with Counterbalance and allows you to shuffle away bad cards. With ponders for shuflle effects, you can also cut some fetches and increase the basic land count (great against blood moon / stifles). Without Standstill I also replaced man-lands with islands and academy ruins. Overall this changes the list to MUC with stifle-nought.

Pros:
+ single-color-basicland.DEC is pretty good against all the nonbasic-land hate
+ mono-blue supports maindeck Shackles
+ dread-stifle ftw
+ no Standstill means you get to draw cards in all MU's

Cons:
- Dreadstill without Standstill is MUc (<- not a capital C)
- Moat (although this is a problem for Dreadstill too)
- no man-lands means less beaters, so slower clock

FYI, chalice@1 is very hard to remove with a 3sphere in play (you need 3 colorless mana to drop a EE@0)

I can post a decklist of the deck I ended up with for those who are interested.

[Rood]

I'm not entirely sure how you're playing against DS but I've excessively tested that matchup the most and say it's quite favorable for us. Chills, Echoing Truths, Krosan Grips all hurt their lock/win conditions. Standstills have only been dead sometimes for me, most of the time however they are always a solid draw 3 card. If your meta is filled with Aggro I'd recommend cutting wastelands from my list and adding in Mutavaults. That could most likely solve your issue.

Sideboard:
-3 Counterbalance
-1 Standstill
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Pithing Needle


+3 Chill
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Grip

[neckfire]

hmm yea cutting the standstills is very very bad. standstill is a win win card.against aggro they have no choice but to pop it if they want to win. One thing to remember is this is a extremely hard deck to play and win alot with. anyone can do a turn 2 naught and go oops i win but what happans when a turn 2 naught will actually lose you the game.If you find yourself not doing well with dreadstill it may be time to switch to a stifle naught plan without the dreadstill package.You will be playing a worse deck but the option is there.this deck is very hard to play learn the deck inside and out if you want to be good with it.This is not a deck you can just pick up and play you have to play it and learn it.

[HammafistRoob]

I'll add to this one Rood. Neither or better yet, its a meta call.
Mutavault:
-Additional Beater under standstill
-Extra creatures VS. Goblins + other aggro

Wasteland:
-Tempo for the win denying things like green splashes etc is a great thing.

Basically:
More Thresh type decks, Wasteland is better
More aggro based decks like goblins, Mutavault is the way to go.

I don't think I can agree with this. Mutavault was just an interesting idea I wanted to try. Basically this is what I did to Roods green list.

-3 Wasteland
+2 Mutavault
+1 Fetch

I wanted to abuse the Standstills more by adding in more manlands. But to be honest I think I would have done much better in the tourney if I just kept the Wastelands in. Mainly because I would have been able to keep my opponent off green mana, therefore not be worried about Krosan Grip. Wasteland is actually better against Goblins for that reason, their only answers to Dreadnought are Grip (try to turn off Green mana) and Weirding(counterable). Mutavault is just not so great in the deck.

[thefreakaccident]

I picked up this deck recently for testing purposes, and I am having a very difficult time against vial goblins and landstill, neither of which can you play your draw engine (standstill), leaving you with littlerally no draw in the deck (you do have filter cards like top, but that is CQ not CA)... I just do not see this being able to do well at my meta (plenty of landstillesque decks/landstill decks).

The thresh MU is good, I will admit, as with the combo MU... but I just do not see me playing this to much success at my meta... Is there a list you may have that runs something other than standstll? There was my varient, but it also lost to landstill (read agro-control vs control in general).

I was thinking of playing a more landstillesque build with a red splash for tempo, the list would look like adan's build of LS:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
2 wasteland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
3 faerie conclave
4 volcanic island
1 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
1 wooded foothills
1 mountain
1 seat of the synod
2 island

creatures//6
4 trinket mage
2 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//29
4 standstill
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
1 trickbind
4 lightning bolt
3 counterspell
3 repeal
1 engineered explosives
2 sensei's divining top


sideboard//
2 pyroclasm
4 tormod's crypt
4 Blue elemental blast
3 red elemental blast
2 pithing needle


Sure, it may not seem as aggressive, but it is a lot more agressively controlling, using tempo to strengthen your board position until you feel safe enough to go for the kill, it also makes you a lot less relient on the dreadnought kill, as they have to deal with your manlands as well. You will also play a very good game against other standstill packing decks with your own land package... This build is just theoretical.

You only need to have 1 basic island out to deal with moon now, just bounce it with repeal EOT and do your stuff on your turn... this is how I would play this variant at least.

[Rood]

IF your meta is filtered with Goblins and Landstill I would highly recommend sideboarding 3-4 Back to Basics seeing as that was Dreadstill's best answer to all the nonbasics Landstill runs. A well timed B2B against Landstill can win you the game. One advantage Dreadstill has is the ability to run quite a few solid basic lands. It was the original purpose I had put them into my side. Considering your meta I would have to agree-your list looks alot more solid against Goblins and Landstill builds. Why only two clasms Sb? Also may i recommend~

-3 Counterspell
+3 Counterbalance (Since you run top)

Sideboard
-1 BEB
+1 Pyroclasm

[Ch@os]

You only need to have 1 basic island out to deal with moon now, just bounce it with repeal EOT and do your stuff on your turn... this is how I would play this variant at least.

Uhh, BtB is your Mainweapon against landstill in all variants. And the red splash gives the list not what it need to handle bad matchups.
The list seems more like an old U/R Landstill List with a Trinket-Toolbox.

At the moment i'am testing black for Bob instead of Standstill and no Factorys Oo, but im just testing all kinds of colors, decklist in progress ...

[Rood]

Me and my teammate (vanele) both T4'd split the recent Rhode Island tournament playing Dreadstill. It was a 24 man tournament. It was a top 4 split amongt me (Roodmistah), vanele, Jaynel, and my teammate Stoohgenstein. Total winnings totaled to 375$ cash @___@. Me and my teammate will both post our tournament reports in the tournament reports section soon.

[Joon]

Gratz. I'd like to see that report, your list and your Sideboard :smile:

[Maagler]

Good jorb! I think I might go about trying to make this deck!

[neckfire]

way to go rood on the t8 go dreadstill go

[HammafistRoob]

I watched Rodney's Top 8 games against Rich Shay playing UGR Thresh. I think Rodney should have lost game2 but Rich didn't have any creatures in play for like 8 turns in a row and was getting smashed on by Factories. They were pretty well played games on both sides of the table, in the end Rodney took it down in Game3.

[J.V.]

So when are you and Woob's reports coming?

[Rood]

Tourny Report posted here
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=217803#post217803

[electrolyze]

congratz on both your finishes

i really like this deck and i'm testing it on mws for a while now(mostly against competetive players).

dont know if its just me or is this deck so incedibly counterheavy? on mws my opponents getting crazy many times bacause of all the counters i loss and the brokeness of t2 naught. is it normal to have so many counters in one game?

how would academy ruins do in this deck? i tink i'm gonna test it as a one off.

i really like all the results from this deck and i hope it will be soon in the dtb forum.

another question, how does this deck do against aluren cause there are a plenty of aluren players on most tourney here in the netherlands?

[Rood]

I haven't had too much trouble with Aluren although I've only tested that matchup only a few times. Pretty much even if you don't have the Force for Aluren you can still Snare a combo piece they could possible have in their hand such as Harpie and they may not see it coming. But yeah you should be fine if Aluren is rampant in your meta.

[J.V.]

I haven't had too much trouble with Aluren although I've only tested that matchup only a few times. Pretty much even if you don't have the Force for Aluren you can still Snare a combo piece they could possible have in their hand such as Harpie and they may not see it coming. But yeah you should be fine if Aluren is rampant in your meta.
Rodney, I've probably done a bit more testing in the matchup then you have. Anyways to add to simply not letting Aluren resolve, Stifling recruiter, etc usually wins you the game.

[HammafistRoob]

congratz on both your finishes

i really like this deck and i'm testing it on mws for a while now(mostly against competetive players).

1)dont know if its just me or is this deck so incedibly counterheavy? on mws my opponents getting crazy many times bacause of all the counters i loss and the brokeness of t2 naught. is it normal to have so many counters in one game?

2)how would academy ruins do in this deck? i tink i'm gonna test it as a one off.

3)i really like all the results from this deck and i hope it will be soon in the dtb forum.

4)another question, how does this deck do against aluren cause there are a plenty of aluren players on most tourney here in the netherlands?

1) This deck runs 14-15 counters and is pretty draw/cantrip heavy. You will usually see a decent amount of counters each game.

2) Academy Ruins has been an idea we have had for a while. I personally think that we don't need any more colorless mana but it might work, if you tinker around with it, post the results here.

3) It will be in the DTB Forum soon, don't worry.

4) Aluren I can see as an easy match, we run more counter than they do, without Aluren on the board, their deck turns into a slow aggro deck that will lose very easily to a couple of Mishra's Factories or a Dreadnought. If your meta is filled with Aluren you should win alot of games.:wink:

[Rood]

Okay the Back to Basics in the board have been confirmed fairly poor of a slot and has been switched for Threads of Disloyalty. So far in testing it's proven to be house against decks packing Goyf (See most of 1.5 format). I'm considering upping it to possible 3.

[Ceridan]

I would really like to see some SB options against different Tier 1-2 decks (what to board in/out). It would be helpful in the Dreadstill primer.

[Rood]

I would really like to see some SB options against different Tier 1-2 decks (what to board in/out). It would be helpful in the Dreadstill primer.

No problem has been done.

[neckfire]

http://www.magic-league.com/mllogger/show.php?id=1558

check out the link for a really tight game vs dragonstompy. it shows dreadstill at its best.

[neckfire]

http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=41372&view=decks

........a mws small tourny i played in i got 2nd stupid stax.....oh well he played good.check it out im neckfire of course.

[Jaiminho]

Just noted there was what seemed like a rules mistake:


<Quepi> Ok?
<neckfire> ok
Quepi plays Chalice of the Void from Hand
Chalice of the Void now has 1 (+1) counters.
(...)
<neckfire> Wait!
<neckfire> is the chalice a cc of 2
<neckfire> or one?
<Quepi> 1
<neckfire> ok its good

Chalice's cost is XX, so X = 1 makes it a 2cc on the stack. Spell snare in hand?

Also, why did you play EE for 1 on the first game? Shouldn't you have played it with 0 counters and destroy Chalices, Moxen and even Akroma in case he was playing it (which he did, as seen on game 3)?

[Maagler]

Just wondering, When you play on that site do you get prizes or just for fun? Good job on second!

[Rood]

Just noted there was what seemed like a rules mistake:



Chalice's cost is XX, so X = 1 makes it a 2cc on the stack. Spell snare in hand?

Also, why did you play EE for 1 on the first game? Shouldn't you have played it with 0 counters and destroy Chalices, Moxen and even Akroma in case he was playing it (which he did, as seen on game 3)?

Yeah I think he meant to play it for 0 and destroy his Chalice he just thought the CC of the card was still 1 in play although it's only it on the stack ;-)

[Clark Kant]

Here's what I never understood about your build of this deck, which is a very solid idea by the way.

But you run 8 ways to get Dreadnought (4 Mages and 4 Dreadnought).

And yet you only run 5 cards that combo with it (4 Stifle, 1 Trickbind).

Why this doesn't make sense to me is, Dreadnought by itself in your hand is a completely dead card.

Where as Stifle and Trickbind are never ever dead. When you can't use them to get a Dreadnought into play, they kill fetchlands, they counter storm, they neuter Seal of Primordium, and at the very worst case scenario, you can pitch them to FoW as your blue card.

So to me, it makes a lot more sense to run 4 Stifle and 4 Trickbind with 4 Trinket Mage and 4 Dreadnought.

But if not that, i would cut Dreadnoughts from the above (as they are dead cards by themselves) before I would start cutting Trickbinds and Stifles, which are never dead.

I have also found myself very underwhelmed by the Countertop engine (tested it in MUC), so I'm instead going to try a build like this...

Lands
12 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mutavault
2 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

Spells
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
2 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

The one other major concern I have about your list is that you only run 12 blue lands. Yet, typically, if you want to make sure you draw a source of a certain color in your opening hand, you need to run atleast 14 cards that produce that color mana.

Otherwise, what do you think about this build?

[Jaiminho]

You can't jump into conclusions of a control set of cards such as Counter-Top in a deck because you tested it in another and didn't like.

2 Mana Leak and 2 Daze? 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm? No fetchlands? I simply don't get it...

[Ch@os]

The CB+T Engine is extremly strong in Dreadstill, low landcount, CCSpells 1-3 and enough other counter to win games without Counterbalance.

@ Clark Kant:

You can play another Trickbind or 1-2 Vision Charm when you feel comfortable with this, but as a result of weekly testing all this is over the top.
The Trinketmage is a small toolbox, mostly you serach EE or the missing nought or needle when you need it, but never a second nought.


@ neckfire:

Grats, but happen such mistakes because it's not "real" Magic?

[Clark Kant]

Jamiho, ever since Dragon Stompy made first turn Blood Moon or Magus a not too infrequent play, I greatly dislike the idea of running fetchlands in monocolored decks, even if it means not running 4 Brainstorm.

Okay, forget the CB engine.

But I am curious though if anyone else shares my sentiments that...

It doesn't work quite right to run 8 ways to get Dreadnought (4 Mages and 4 Dreadnought) one combo piece

And yet only run 5 cards for the other combo piece (4 Stifle, 1 Trickbind).

When the that second combo piece is never ever dead. Because when it's not being used to combo off, it kills fetches, counters storm, neuters Seals, or pitches to FoW.

Where as the first combo piece, Dreadnought is completely worthless and unplayable when you have it in your hand without the second combo piece.

This is why I really want to up the Trickbind count (to atleast 2, but preferably to 4), or perhaps lower the Dreadnought count, or perhaps both.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And if I were to do this, what cards would you say are the most removable from the current list to make room for the additional Trickbinds?

Thank you for any suggestions you have on what I could cut from the list to squeeze in more Trickbind.

[Rood]

Clark I also felt the same way about the 1 Trickbind in the list, I would like to up the count to two simple for the reason it's amazingly good. If you want to take that route might I suggest

-1 Spell Snare
+1 Trickbind

So, essentially your list would look like this

/ Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [6E] Chill
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Don't worry too much about Blood Moon, for the most part it. Taking out the fetchies because of that card simple isn't worth it. It really only hurts us if we are on the draw, don't have FoW, and they have first turn Blood Moon. even then we can have a basic Island in hand since we run 6 and be perfectly functionable. For the most part I really haven't had too many issues with that card.

[nditiz1]

I played in the Virginia Fudruckers tournament over this past weekend. Let me say thanks to Roodmistah for posting up your decklist and match report; it helped me greatly. This is all from memory and I have never written a match report but here goes:

The list I was running

6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
4 Standstill
4 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Chill
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

Around 60 players, 6 Rounds cut to top 8

Round 1: Burn (1-0-0)
G1: I win the die roll. He drops Cursed Scroll turn 1. I proceed to dropping a counterbalance by turn 2. A few turns later I drop Nought, he scoops after one swing.
(+3 Chill, +1 Needle, -1 EE, -2 Spell Snare, -1 Trinket Mage)
G2: I Mull to 6 after throwing away a hand with 2 Chill, top, waste, factory, nought, standstill. I wasn't feeling the gamble. My 6 wasn't better but had blue mana. Eventually he killed me with his scroll.
G3: I'm on the play, Island go. He burns me once. I drop a turn 2 chill followed by a turn 3 chill. He scoops.

Round 2: UGWB Landstill (2-0-0)
G1: I think I stifled his land turn 1, dropping an early Nought that we fought over in a counter battle. I won and his tarmo's could not stop him.
(I'm not sure what I sided in except for 2 threads I didn't see much of his deck)
G2: I dropped another early Nought with heavy counter backup 2 Forces and daze. We counter battled and I won. He tried to kill it with Gastly Demise killing his own land with his wasteland in the process to fill his yard. By this point I already had top on the table with a Force on top. Demise was countered and Nought went through.

Round 3: Dredge (3-0-0)
Luck was on my side in this match - that and my opponent was not the most skilled at playing the deck. He made no play mistakes in our games just lost to bad dredging and my good luck.
G1: He doesn't start dredging until turn 3. He goes for the win with LED and Coloseum - 2 zombies on board. His hand is gone he has 3 blue. He activates coloseum, I stifle it, he attempts to cast Deep A in his yard and I daze it. Nought comes down to seal his fate.
(+3 Crypts, +2 Truth, +2 Threads, -4 Spell Snare, - 3 counterbalance)
G2: He has a slow start no BreakT just discard to Imp. I draw a mage and crypt his yard. I have a Factory and Mage. I find another mage after misplaying and casting my Standstill. My thought process was I will just keep attacking with Mage and Factory - He had no action. His imp blocks my mage and discards a dredger to kill both creatures and start to blow up his deck He still has two zombies from earlier. I break my own standstill for a mage. He almost dredges with his draws. He draws 3. I get Crypt and crypt him. I treads his zombie token and start bashing him with it. He tries to cast breakthrough and I counter. He gets an imp in play again and starts dredging for a third time. I bounce my zombie token and his. Cast a third mage to seal his decks fate.

Round 4: Survival (3-1-0)
I almost ID because the kid is my friend. We decide to play and I get very unfortunate draws. I tested this match yesterday and won 6-0. It's not a bad match up Counterbalance beats the deck.
G1: I get thoughtseized turn 1 taking my daze. I have nothing against the turn 2 survival. I stay in hoping to get a needle or nought, nothing comes.
G2: Free Win, my friend presented a 61 card deck.
G3: My hand is ripped apart by thoughtseize and therapy. I couldn't seem to get countermagic against him at all that day

Round 5: BUGW Intuition Loam (3-2-0)
This is the worst matchup for the deck. It is possible to get an early nought protected by numerous amounts of counter, but if you wait the game is over. Intuition and Counterbalance beat you.
G1: We fight over his balance and i win but have to expend more resources. An early standstill proves to be not as good when your opponent has more land in his deck than you. Standstill is broken to a goyf. Now I get the land. I drop a Nought which gets killed by a EE after countering a Deed.
G2: Not any better, I make some good plays to shuffle away his top when he had balance out but the goyf's backed by EE and Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold and Witness, Krosan Grip, CounterTop prove to be too much. Siding in Crypt might have been a viable solution but only to slow the bleeding.

Round 6: BUGW Thresh (4-2-0)
I had a chance to make top 8 so I didn't scoop to my opponent.
G1: I had a huge jump out the gate with a first turn stifle on the draw, turn 2 waste his land. Some dazes and FoW later Nought was on the table protected from Swords with FoW.
G2: I stifled an early game wasteland. I got another early counterbalance top. The top was gripped, but blind flips went the distance to protect my Nought from Swords

I just missed the top 8 finishing 10th (one 13pt did not make it on tiebreak) Top 10 got prize so I still got a pick of 4 Countryside Crushers.

Top 8:
Dredge and G/R Loam split (1st, 2nd)
2 x GUR Thresh
Enchantress
Fetchland Tendrils
BUGW Intuition Loam
Survival

Some possible changes to the deck. I like the idea of +1 Trickbind -1 Snare. I would play 7 stifle if I could.

The matchup between this and BUGW Intuition Loam needs to be improved. Maybe with a set of Goyfs in the side can combat against it. Or more Islands and Shackles.

Back to the matter of Ruins in the deck. I am going to put one in. It works well against Dredge for crypt and can bring back EE for any problem.

Until the next Legacy event.

[Rood]

Congrats on your finish nditiz1, it really sucks missing top 8 after going 3-0 but Survival is only slightly favored for us they can still rip us apart if we don't draw much to protect ourselves like Brainstorm. I'm beginning to think more and more like adding in the second Trickbind could be pretty good for us. As for the Intuition Loam matchup, I don't really see that at all in my meta so I don't need to prep my board to beat it. A good sideboard to try to hate it out, I almost want to say 4x Goyfs won't be enough but it potentially could be due to the fact he'd have to answer 16 of our Threats (4x Goyf, 4 Nought, 4 Trinket, 4 Factories.)

So SB for you would look like:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Echoing Truth
2 Krosan Grip

[HammafistRoob]

Here's what I never understood about your build of this deck, which is a very solid idea by the way.

But you run 8 ways to get Dreadnought (4 Mages and 4 Dreadnought).

And yet you only run 5 cards that combo with it (4 Stifle, 1 Trickbind).

Why this doesn't make sense to me is, Dreadnought by itself in your hand is a completely dead card.

Where as Stifle and Trickbind are never ever dead. When you can't use them to get a Dreadnought into play, they kill fetchlands, they counter storm, they neuter Seal of Primordium, and at the very worst case scenario, you can pitch them to FoW as your blue card.

So to me, it makes a lot more sense to run 4 Stifle and 4 Trickbind with 4 Trinket Mage and 4 Dreadnought.

But if not that, i would cut Dreadnoughts from the above (as they are dead cards by themselves) before I would start cutting Trickbinds and Stifles, which are never dead.

I have also found myself very underwhelmed by the Countertop engine (tested it in MUC), so I'm instead going to try a build like this...

Lands
12 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mutavault
2 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

Spells
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
2 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

The one other major concern I have about your list is that you only run 12 blue lands. Yet, typically, if you want to make sure you draw a source of a certain color in your opening hand, you need to run atleast 14 cards that produce that color mana.

Otherwise, what do you think about this build?

Not to be mean or anything but this list is quite bad. Mana Leak? Misdirection? Bad calls, Brainstorm is needed as a 4 of and Fetches are also needed. CBTop is amazing in this deck use it.

You Probably don't need 4 Trickbinds, 2 or 3 maybe but not 4. Trinket Mage almost always goes for EE or Top it only goes for Nought if you have the Stifle effect in hand.

[Clark Kant]

If you rarely go for Dreadnought with Mage, and only occasionally are planning to have Stifle effects in hand, then why does the deck play 4 Dreadnought?

Dreadnought does nothing for you unless you have a Stifle effect in hand, and Dreadnought in multiples is completely worthless even then.

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to cut Dreadnoughts (the piece of the combo that is completely worthless without the other half) before the deck cuts Trickbinds (the half of the combo that actually has a lot of functions even without the other half)?

I looked through the whole thread and I still don't see a strong argument for why cutting back on the versatile Trickbind slots made more sense than cutting back on the singleminded, useless in multiples and often dead in hand Dreadnought slots.

I guess I'm a little confused as to how to play the deck. I was under the impression that it wanted to combo out with Dreadnought as fast it can, while using blue control cards to disrupt your opponents plan and your protect your combo.

That's why I felt Misdirection and Mana Leak are effective, since both cards are great at protecting the combo and disrupting your opponents removal, bounce and countermagic.

If instead, this is closer to MUC with a combo win condition of sorts, then I can't understand how it could support 4 Daze since Daze is near useless by the midgame and I am wondering why it doesn't play more delay/controllish cards like Veldalken Shackles, Propaganda, Back to Basics and Powder Keg.

I guess it's more of an intermediate between the two. In past experience, that never works out too well, to try to do a bit of both. But the deck is clearly posting good results and I am really looking forward to trying it out some more...

I still feel that 4 Trickbind is worthwhile since the card is seriously never dead, and at worst, just pitches to FoW or can be shuffled away with Brainstorm.

So how about this...

6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

Or do you feel that 4 Trickbind is an absolute no no in this deck?

[Rood]

I would never cut Dreadnought down to a 3 of, personally. Although you may think only 5-6 ways to combo with his is rather low, the reason it's more then enough for us is because we run Standstill (insane drawing engine) and cheap ways to find it like Brainstorm/Top. I think any more then 6 will probally create you to draw way too many Stifle effects thus being dead in your hand. Dreadnought is run as a 4 of, simple because it enables a much higher possibility of T2 Dreadnought which will flat out win you games in alot of matchups. So basically all I'd change from your list is -1 Trickbind +1 Dreadnought. Other then that, solid list.

[HammafistRoob]

If you rarely go for Dreadnought with Mage, and only occasionally are planning to have Stifle effects in hand, then why does the deck play 4 Dreadnought?


Dreadnought does nothing for you unless you have a Stifle effect in hand, and Dreadnought in multiples is completely worthless even then.

Dreadnought has these cool untap tricks you can do(swing, ok take 12, play Dreadnought saccing my tapped one) it can be useful sometimes. Dreadnought will almost never be drawn as a dead card since we run Top and BS/Fetch.


Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to cut Dreadnoughts (the piece of the combo that is completely worthless without the other half) before the deck cuts Trickbinds (the half of the combo that actually has a lot of functions even without the other half)?

That's the thing, Trickbinds were never cut from the deck, we only added 1 for versatility(can't spell?) maybe running 2 is a good call.



I still feel that 4 Trickbind is worthwhile since the card is seriously never dead, and at worst, just pitches to FoW or can be shuffled away with Brainstorm.

Why Don't you fell the same way about Dreadnought(except the Force pitchability(word or no word?:confused: ))


So how about this...

6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

Or do you feel that 4 Trickbind is an absolute no no in this deck?

This list seems pretty good, I will echo Roods' suggestion.

[Clark Kant]

Why Don't you fell the same way about Dreadnought(except the Force pitchability(word or no word?:confused: ))



It's not just that Trickbind fuels FoW.

Trickbind without dreadnought is an uncounterable Sinkhole, and is useful versus Seals, Pernicious Deeds, Survival activations, Shackles activation to steal your nought before it deals lethal damage and lots of other random situations that seem to pop up in legacy.

Dreadnought without Stifle does nothing.

[Ch@os]

It's not just that Trickbind fuels FoW.

Trickbind without dreadnought is an uncounterable Sinkhole, and is useful versus Seals, Pernicious Deeds, Survival activations, Shackles activation to steal your nought before it deals lethal damage and lots of other random situations that seem to pop up in legacy.


Trickbind is good but not an 4'er slot. Test the list with 2-3 of them, i dont think you've been playing the list above.


@Clark Kant:
All your posts are ... "agressive", try these try that, you havent play against this, would this be better ...

Sit down and please play the deck, your posting in some topics around the board and i dont think that you play all of them and really test them.

[georgjorge]

Shackles activation to steal your nought before it deals lethal damage

...with 12 Islands on the board ? I'm wondering which deck could manage to do this - even long drawn-out games versus Landstill never see them with more than ten lands on the board :wink:

[Clark Kant]

A bad example, sure. But it's certainly possible.

You haven't experienced long drawn out games until you've played against Mono Blue Control.

[Bane of the Living]

Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact over Trinket Mage? For the same three mana you can sacrifice a Seat of Synod to put nought into play, not your hand. Is the body for Warren's Weirding that important. He's just so slow.

Transmuting those extra tops seems good and Mishra's Factory is already an artifact so you wouldnt even need to make many accommodation's.

[nditiz1]

A bad example, sure. But it's certainly possible.

You haven't experienced long drawn out games until you've played against Mono Blue Control.

Mono Blue does not have more counters than you. Also, by forcing a standstill through, you do not have to go to the long game just beat w/ Factory. Like others have posted, you need to sit and test the deck.


Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact over Trinket Mage? For the same three mana you can sacrifice a Seat of Synod to put nought into play, not your hand. Is the body for Warren's Weirding that important. He's just so slow.

Transmuting those extra tops seems good and Mishra's Factory is already an artifact so you wouldnt even need to make many accommodation's.

Interesting idea, but that will steal away from the consistency of the deck. IMO Dread is a mini combo thrown into the deck taking up 4 slots. It's not needed to win.

The great thing about Trinket mage is he has dual purposes - He attacks and grabs you a needed artifact. I rarely ever get Naught with Mage. I usually use him to get a top for balance or a EE for kill.

[Bane of the Living]

Mono Blue does not have more counters than you. Also, by forcing a standstill through, you do not have to go to the long game just beat w/ Factory. Like others have posted, you need to sit and test the deck.



Interesting idea, but that will steal away from the consistency of the deck. IMO Dread is a mini combo thrown into the deck taking up 4 slots. It's not needed to win.

The great thing about Trinket mage is he has dual purposes - He attacks and grabs you a needed artifact. I rarely ever get Naught with Mage. I usually use him to get a top for balance or a EE for kill.

He just seems so slow and everyone seems to want the nought combo asap. I know thats how I like it. Standstill fits perfectly but I dont think the deck should get in the habit of Landstill's late game. Landstill tends to run massive board sweeping effects such as Wrath and Deed. Your searching for Explosives so often because you need the sweeper when going late game. Rather than take the late game why not just turbo out with some massive counter magic?

Reading all the tournament reports and my own experience with Nought all point me in direction of balls to the walls speed. The advantage of the creature is how fast he can kill your opponent. Why wait till turn 7/8?

EDIT

Btw I find my own copies of Threads of Disloyalty are extremely effective as an answer to my opponents. That way you can just take their own Dreadnought if it's mirror or take a goyf or something.

[Rood]

For the most part, you'll rarely experience yourself going into Landstill's late game with this deck. Normally if you draw a slow control hand and Standstill's you'll probally get drawn out until mid-game- overpower them with card advantage (Counterbalance, Standstill) Drop a Nought and win or just Trinket/Factory beat them to death. If you go strait up turbo speed you're weakening your ways to protect your Dreadnought thus your oponent's answers for him will most likely resolve. I've been testing the 2nd Trickbind over the 4th Spell Snare. It wasn't bad to say the least. I'm considering changing up my board a little bit, -1 Needle +1 EE for the simple reason that I normally never board in both so it's seemed kind of pointless to run more then 2.

[Maagler]

Hey thought you might be interested, I allways use this site to keep up on current decks.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreadstill&format=Legacy

wow Rodney got 5 of the 6 wins! (not that it was unexpected)

[Rood]

Hey thought you might be interested, I allways use this site to keep up on current decks.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreadstill&format=Legacy

wow Rodney got 5 of the 6 wins! (not that it was unexpected)

You must also remember not many people are currently playing this deck right now outside of my team. Also would just like to add the Goyf Sligh matchup continues to be amazing for this deck. I played against Goyf Sligh tonight at a local tourny down in RI but his 4x Krosan Grip board wasn't enough to hate me out. (I think the deck itself total is like 15-0 against Goyf Sligh in rounds.) Roob, are you interested in posting your white splash list? I think his build is fairly optimal for the most part for white splash and I will edit my intro post with this decklist. Went 3-0-2, beat Survival, Goyf Sligh, drew in with my two teammates. Beat Survival again in top 4 and split it with my teammate Roob.

[HammafistRoob]

You must also remember not many people are currently playing this deck right now outside of my team. Also would just like to add the Goyf Sligh matchup continues to be amazing for this deck. I played against Goyf Sligh tonight at a local tourny down in RI but his 4x Krosan Grip board wasn't enough to hate me out. (I think the deck itself total is like 15-0 against Goyf Sligh in rounds.) Roob, are you interested in posting your white splash list? I think his build is fairly optimal for the most part for white splash and I will edit my intro post with this decklist. Went 3-0-2, beat Survival, Goyf Sligh, drew in with my two teammates. Beat Survival again in top 4 and split it with my teammate Roob.

My list for White Splash-
Main-60
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Side-15
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chill
2 Echoing Truth
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Engineered Explosives


Swiss
Beat Dragon Stompy 2-1
Lost to Storm 1-2 (mull to 4 Game1, no blue mana Game 3)
Beat FishDOTdec 2-0
Tie Dreadstill

Top4
Beat Storm 2-1
Tie Dreadstill

All in all, very solid list although I'm not sold on Threads in this list. Mainly because against Thresh(where you want threads) I already have to side in Mages and there isn't anything else I can side out to fit them in. Basically the match that I want it in I can't fit it in.

Also wanting to add in another Polluted Delta over some nonland card, but idk what to cut.

[Ch@os]

Oo, my MB is the same \o/, but i play no Wasteland, instead 1x Academy Ruins, 1x Polluted Delta, 1x Tundra. And in the SB no Chill, instead 3x BEB.

Sword is extremly good in this build, last week i played against burn/sligh an i sworded my own nought, because i had no CB in play and cant find a Stifle Effect, so +12 life :).
Also to clear the board before play a standstill, and so on ... nice splash color for Dreadstill.

[Maagler]

I just played rob with the white splash list on Friday. Dreadstill spanks dragon stompy around like a bad little monkey. I also played it with ichorid, although i won 2/3 i think it was because of a play mistake.

I am just waiting to see this deck catch on. Its explosive power in the combo is great for the quick win, or the long game finisher. I was thinking though, would the addition of goyfs help the deck? I would not stretch it to three colors. I might go U/g for it.

[Rood]

Goyf is great, but a sideboard card at best. The list itself is incredible tight and I would not cut any control element cards (Spell Snares, etc) for him. And the Mages are just a beating bud.

[HammafistRoob]

Oo, my MB is the same \o/, but i play no Wasteland, instead 1x Academy Ruins, 1x Polluted Delta, 1x Tundra. And in the SB no Chill, instead 3x BEB.

Sword is extremly good in this build, last week i played against burn/sligh an i sworded my own nought, because i had no CB in play and cant find a Stifle Effect, so +12 life :).
Also to clear the board before play a standstill, and so on ... nice splash color for Dreadstill.


Your first white list wasn't that good, it ran Vision Charm and such. I really like the deck with Wastelands in it, I think my build is going to cut the one of Needle for another fetch/Island.

Also, we should get optimal builds for each splash on the first post, currently we have Uw and Ug. I think Black would also be a really good build with the addition of Confidant.

[Ch@os]

Yes my first lists were sort of experimental ;>, but now it seems an optimal white build has been found. These few different cards like play Wasteland or play not are not such a big deal and depends on the playstyle.

I've tried the black splash with Confidant, but its a very different playstyle with no real removal MB. And a UWB build is really strange because its not enough space for Sword & Confidant.

Some Ideas for an black splash? Just replace the three swords and the needle with 4x Confidant. Or add some extra Thoughtseize/Duress?

[Rood]

I was messing around with a black splash list the other day and I am not completely sure the deck can support Seizes and Confidants without having to sacrifice the Trinket Mages/toolbox and CB/top combo. Even though you may think Confidant is really needed, we already run Standstills and if we run 8 draw spells we're bound to just draw more draw spells and not many business spells. I'd mainly only splash black right now for Seizes main and Extirpates from the board.

[J.V.]

This is what I've been screwing around with Rodney.
Ub Dreadstill:

Lands:19
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
2 [B] Underground Sea

Creatures:7
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

Spells:34
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LOR] Thoughtseize
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:15
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [6E] Chill
SB: 3 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

Now as you can see there is no Dark Confidant, yes this hurts, but With Standstill, etc you already have a great draw engine so you can afford to not run the Bob's. Thoughtseize and Extirpate on the other hand are the big perks to the black splash both adding excellent disruption to the already strong tempo'd list. Also the golbin matchup is greatly improved by the addition of engineered plague.

[vanele]

To quote an Excellent Video game
"Richard, you're methods may be flawed, but our love for America is the same"
The black splash doesn't realistically look worth it to me. Instead of cutting spells to make room for discard and reactive cards like Extirpate , the white splash seems to me to offer more quality cards in the form of enlightened tutor. My thought behind this is simple, early dreadnaught is win against goblins. So why bother stalling with chill in the board, I'd rather just go for the win drop that naught, and counter their goblin edicts.
As an after thought, it will even Grab you Counterbalance Vs threshold but i wouldn't know what to side in over in that match up.
Also finds crypt for ichorid and needle for breakfast.

[maatn]

Taking this quote from the 'Results' thread:

4-5-08
Die Hard Games
1005 Main St - Suite 2230
Pawtucket, RI
Weekly Legacy
8 players

Top 4:
1st/2nd Split:
Rodney Hannigan (Roodmistah) Ug Dreadstill
Rob Rogers (HammafistRoob) Uw Dreadstill
3rd:
Thomas MacDonald (JanValentine00) Fetchland Tendrils
4th:
Elijah Hannon (Morphling420) RGBSA


I noticed that there is now an Ug version of Dreadstill?
Adding Goyfs makes sense, and increases the brokenness of Standstill.
Can you post a list of the Ug Dreadstill version?

Thanks!

[Rood]

There weren't any Goyfs in my list, the green is just there for the Krosan grips. Although you COULD replace them very easily in the sideboard for Goyf.

Just for reference, a Goyf version of my deck would probally look like

// Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [6E] Chill
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

[Skullclamping]

so you just cut the Krosan for Goyfs... I really liked the Krosans in the side, but right now I'm thinking between Chill and Back to Basics, what do you guys think?

[Rood]

My list still has the K Grips in...I did not cut them for Goyf. He asked for a UG list with Goyf and that's the closest list I came up with.

[HammafistRoob]

My Black list would be something like this.
Ub Dreadstill:

Lands:19
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Underground Sea

Creatures:8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant

Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:15
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
3 Chill
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague

I think if you were to run a Black list it would have to use Dark Confidant. Everyone is saying "with Standstills etc. you already have a good draw engine". All I see for a draw engine is Standstill, which is fine. But I think using Bob rather than the Trinket Mage toolbox would be the best route for the black list. But think about it, Counterbalance, Top, and Bob in the same deck! That is just rediculous.

@Vanele(Garrett)- Why would you ever want to run Enlightened Tutor, it would just be more card disadvantage(see FoW) that the deck doesn't want. It also doesn't want to be relying so much on the combo. Also, Tutor + Standstill doesn't really sound like the best synergy to me.

[The Grim Reaper]

I agree that the black splash requires Dark Confidant. Removing Trinket Mage was the best thing I ever did. I never wanted to see that card, as I usually didn't have enough mana or had nothing I wanted to fetch with him. I used to run white for Swords, which I miss dearly, but this deck needs to win with card advantage, so Black is likely a better choice. My list is exactly the same as the one above.

[vanele]

@Vanele(Garrett)- Why would you ever want to run Enlightened Tutor, it would just be more card disadvantage(see FoW) that the deck doesn't want. It also doesn't want to be relying so much on the combo. Also, Tutor + Standstill doesn't really sound like the best synergy to me.[/QUOTE]

The Key being Speeding out the Combo in the matches you need it to win COgoblinsUGH. and instead of wasting 3 slots on chill why not run something like this post board

// Lands
1 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [b] Tropical Island
1 [a] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [4TH?] Enlightened tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [OD] Standstill
This looks like a Stronger Goblins match up to me.
and to the Card advantage, I'm sure if you power out that early naught they will be worrying more about that.

[Ch@os]

Yes Confidant is great, but without Trinket you cant search for Top, the list contains only two. Also your screwed up to CotV or an opponent CB without EE.
The black list is much more straight but contains fewer options to get rid off some problems.

[Rood]

Van- If the only reason you want to make the change is for the Goblin MU, then I can tell you-it's not worth it. Powering out a fast Nought with few answers to back him will be met by an answer for Gobs. A good solution into beating them is running Needle (see Wasteland) and EE as a 1 of from the board.
EDIT-reading is svg tech.

[whienot]

Tinket for Needle is a common play I make. It is THE out if you play against 43land.dec with their Mazes of Ith. (which is very relevant in my meta.)

[Rood]

I decided to gear my sideboard for what I felt would be a heavy blue/Threshold meta at the Wareham tournament.http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=223748#post223748The tournament was roughly 30 people.
I ended up taking 1st ranking wise overall, though we split the cash. My teammates Vanele, Stoohgenstein, and HammafistRoob all T8'd as well. Roob was playing his variant of Dreadstill as well and congrats to him. Anyways, here's the list I ran.
UR Dreadstill by Roodmistah

/ Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [U] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [6E] Chill
SB: 4 [U] Red Elemental Blast

All i can say is, I never missed the Krosan Grips and REB worked wonders all night for me. Also, dropping the 4th Snare for the 2nd Trickbind was savage and it worked out awesome for me. Total I went 6-0-2 drawing my first round against Landstill and intentially IDing with my teammate to get into Top 8.

[Clark Kant]

Happy to see you adopted the 6 Stifle effects, I like the list, a lot.

Do you think 6 is the absolute maximum number of Stifle effects you're willing to test, or are you willing to test 7-8 (by cutting a Daze), along with the 8 Dreadnought sources (Trinket Mage, Dreadnought). At worst, they supplement your Wastelands to help you mana screw them.

One question.

MUC found itself recently cutting Brainstorm for 4 Ancestral Visions, and doing very well with them.

Given the two decks similarilities and Visions synergy with Standstill, what do you think of trying the card maybe as 2 of or something?

Daze seems like it could be a 3 of for onething, it's useless late game, and can be played around once your opponent knows you're running it.

Edit: Nm, if I'm not mistaken, all suspend cards are very dyssnergic with Standstill.

[Jak]

This deck plays fetchlands. Some MUC builds have run Chalice of the void. A control deck like that can not afford to take any life loss.

[Rood]

Yes I am very glad the extra Stifle effect helped alot I got matched up against control all day and the extra Trickbind shined alot. One thing I was fairly sad about is my inability to find a second Volc before the tournament. Without question the SB should be changed -1 Echoing Truth +1 Volcanic Island (For REB, Wasteland.) I would never run any less then 4 Dazes in this deck simple because the card itself has amazing synergy with dropping Dreadnought, or Standstill. If they attempt to kill Dreadnought you can back him with normally with multiple free counterspells and when they pop your Standstill if you are tapped out you can just Daze w/e they play. I would run more Dazes if I could. And as to the maximum number of Stifle effects I'd say that 6 is the max. I don't think I'd ever go over 6 Stifle effects for your Dreadnoughts as for the most part we dig for them very easily.

[J.V.]

Y One thing I was fairly sad about is my inability to find a second Volc before the tournament. Without question the SB should be changed -1 Echoing Truth +1 Volcanic Island (For REB, Wasteland.)

Rodney, we had another unused Volcanic Island... I told you that.:rolleyes:

[Skullclamping]

Is that extra EE in the side needed?

Lately, I've been having some problems with Ichorid, anyone has any thoughts about it? Maybe I played my Crypts wrong, idk

And I like that Ur list, might be worth trying in my 'controlish meta (blue...)

[HammafistRoob]

Is that extra EE in the side needed?

Lately, I've been having some problems with Ichorid, anyone has any thoughts about it? Maybe I played my Crypts wrong, idk

And I like that Ur list, might be worth trying in my 'controlish meta (blue...)

Against Ichorid the plan is to counter their discard outlets(Pimp, Breakthrough, w/e) and use Dreadnoughts as a way to deal with Bridges if need be.

The list I ran at the Wareham tourney was-
Main-60
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Side-15
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Echoing Truth
3 Chill
1 Pithing Needle
1 Plains

Round 1- Dragon Stompy(TrialbyFire) I win this one 2-0
1-0
Round 2- Ug Dreadstill(Dan Cunningham) I win this one 2-1
2-0
Round 3- Rgb Goblins(some dude) I lose this one 1-2
2-1
Round 4- RW aggro thing(Joe) I win this one 2-1
3-1
Round 5-GBRSA(my teammate Stoohgenstein) ID into top8

Top8- UGwb Thresh(TheAtogLord) I lose 0-2
Rich Shay had some pretty good Counterbalance triggers against me and I made a risky but good play in game one that didn't pay off.

All in all I was pretty Impressed with how well the deck played out with the addition of Oring.

Props
Hammafist for taking 4 Top8 spots and 2 Top4 spots
Rodney for winning the thing
Garrett for play a joke deck and Top4ing w/ it
Stoohg for making the risky ID and making it in
Rodney for creating Dreadstill
Jared for pwning Jello after the tourney
Slay and Lego for absolutely hearting our theme song

Slops
Tom for getting KOud Brothers in the first two rounds
Rich Shay for being good at magic
Jared for not racing us on the highway
Garrett for being Garrett
2 ppl who played and failed with Dreadstill

[Maagler]

Is that extra EE in the side needed?

Lately, I've been having some problems with Ichorid, anyone has any thoughts about it? Maybe I played my Crypts wrong, idk

And I like that Ur list, might be worth trying in my 'controlish meta (blue...)

I have played against dreadstill quite a bit with ichorid. I think the white version has the best chance with swords. Also a super techy move is to hardcast you nought, and let it die to remove thier bridges.

[J.V.]

Also a super techy move is to hardcast you nought, and let it die to remove thier bridges.
Mine ^

[Skullclamping]

Hammafist why did you run Oblivion Ring over Stp?

And yes, I already knew the "let your Nought die thing", but I'll try countering their discard outlets

[Ch@os]

In a meta full of CB/Moat/Humility and other enchantment/artefact/noncreature stuff Oblivion Ring make perfect sense.

[HammafistRoob]

In a meta full of CB/Moat/Humility and other enchantment/artefact/noncreature stuff Oblivion Ring make perfect sense.
This along with Chalice, 3Sphere, and everything that Swords can answer. It also gives me another 3 to reveal with CB.

[Maagler]

Mine ^

props.

btw I love MOTL, i got 80% of the trading done for this deck in one day!

Would hammafist be interested in trading regular wastelands, and some other stuff for DCI wastelands?

[Rood]

Is that extra EE in the side needed?

Lately, I've been having some problems with Ichorid, anyone has any thoughts about it? Maybe I played my Crypts wrong, idk

And I like that Ur list, might be worth trying in my 'controlish meta (blue...)

OMG I cannot begin on how good the extra EE in the board was for me. I actually am considering upping the count to two in the side they are that crazy in the Threshold MU. Also, if Ichorid is rampant in your meta you may want to play a Black Splash Variant of Dreadstill with a sideboard of.

4x Crypts
3x Jailers
1x EE
1x Needle
3x Chill
3x Echoing Truth

[Maagler]

OMG I cannot begin on how good the extra EE in the board was for me. I actually am considering upping the count to two in the side they are that crazy in the Threshold MU. Also, if Ichorid is rampant in your meta you may want to play a Black Splash Variant of Dreadstill with a sideboard of.

4x Crypts
3x Jailers
1x EE
1x Needle
3x Chill
3x Echoing Truth


I might run leylines over jailers against ichorid. Although they are harder to hardcast, they are faster than jailers if you get them in your starting hand, which is what you want to be looking for anyways.

I might go

3 crypts (you can find them with trinket mage)
4 leyline
1-2 EE (very good against a range of decks)
1 needle
3 back to basics
3-4 echoing truth

[Rood]

Only problem with that is you'll probally only be running one dual and it's safer to go with Jailer over Leyline seeing if you topdeck Leyline it's a dead card sitting in hand against Ichorid.

[Maagler]

what where the color variants being run yesterday? I think I saw Ug, Ur, Uw, and ? was there are Ub version? Forgot about the single dual. Anyways I like eather the red or white version the best. Green was interesting, with tarmagoyf but ultimately underpowered.

[Rood]

Breakdown from yesterdays metagame:
2 UG Dreadstills (One with goyf! ;O)
1 UR Dreadstill
1 UW Dreadstill

The UR and UW made T8, however one of the UG Dreadstill players should have T8'd but a costly play error cost him a spot in T8.

[Clark Kant]

Here's the list I'm running at the moment...

6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Quicksand

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chill
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Pithing Needle
1 Plains

It's a fairly standard list except that it runs...
-3 Wasteland
+2 Quicksand
+1 Polluted Delta

The reason for the extra fetchland is...

1.) I found only 13 blue sources to be too low at times, esp given that Counterbalance costs UU. I feel like I'm having to mulligan an otherwise perfect hand due to the lack of a blue source too often.

2.) Upping the number of fetchlands makes both Brainstorm and Top that much better.


The reason for running Quicksand over Wasteland is...

1.) I really haven't found Wasteland to be as worthwhile as Quicksand, even with the stifle effects. If you don't have an early Dreadnought, this can be a slow deck, esp thanks to Standstill. The wastelands don't do all that much there.

2.) Quicksand gives me a great way to deal with creatures, to shrink creatures down such that Trinket Mage and Mishra's Factory can kill them and survive, and to let me play Standstill even when they have a creature on the board.

3.) Being able to nuke Dark Confidants and Meddling Mages without having to waste a Force on them is tech.

Has anyone else had the same problems I've had?

What do you guys think of my list?

[from Cairo]

3.) Being able to nuke Dark Confidants and Meddling Mages without having to waste a Force on them is tech.

Who sends their Meddling Mage into a Quicksand? I feel like if your opponent is doing this you should be in good shape anyway given the given they are a horrible player.

Point 2 is a pretty solid one though, being able to shrink a 4/5 Goyf to a 3/3 and trade a Factory with it is pretty hawt. Although it is trading 2 land drops for a Goyf, its sort of a beating tempo-wise.

I would imagine it just comes down to meta/preference. If you don't run into a ton of opposing manlands, Academy Ruins, troublesome lands, then it might be more beneficial to have Quicksands at your disposal. If you want to complement the Stifles with Wastes and have an edge in manland battles and solutions to problem lands than Wasteland is probably the right call.

Otherwise your list looks really standard.

[Clark Kant]

Quicksand kills manlands too. But yeah, them having the option on whether or not to attack is a bummer. But it works well under Standstill (they can't attack with their manland even if you don't have one of your own if you have Quicksand on your side).

[Rood]

Nm, it's attacking only I misread the card =D. Yeah I can't see running this over Waste, shutting down a colored mana is too crucial.

[Clark Kant]

Thank you. I barely see goblins around here so please let me how well it works for you.

[Muradin]

What do you guys think of playing Back to Basics in the board? To make them good we would have to remove the Watelands from the maindeck, but with Back to Basics we would have a real bomb, which simply tends to win games on its own quite often.(Would also make the manabase more stable) Normally bad matchups like 4 Color Landstill could be made pretty favorable with B2B.

[Rood]

What do you guys think of playing Back to Basics in the board? To make them good we would have to remove the Watelands from the maindeck, but with Back to Basics we would have a real bomb, which simply tends to win games on its own quite often.(Would also make the manabase more stable) Normally bad matchups like 4 Color Landstill could be made pretty favorable with B2B.

I actually had B2B in my original build got dropped them due to the fact Landstill wasn't really around my metagame. I honestly think stabilizing our mana base and running B2B in the board could work out awesome in a Landstill-heavy meta.

[Muradin]

Recently I've seen many different builds of this deck with different splashes in all colours. Those decks didn't differ in many slots, but still it seems to be easy to tweak this deck for a special metagame. So at the moment I am still thinking, which splash I should run if I decide to play this deck. First I am going to try it at a smaller legacy tournament (roughly 20 people)

My metagame has a lot of Aggro Loam decks, Landstill, ******** and Ichorid. The rest is Survival(GWB mostly) with decks like Dragon Stompy, Truffle Shuffle and Epic storm popping up sometimes.
Notable is, that there are more or less no Goblins and very little real random decks.
Would dreadstill in general be a good choice in such a meta?
What would be a viable plan against Krosan Grip?
In which matchups am I the agressor? Where should I dig and mulligan for Stifle + Nought and where should I play control?

[Rood]

I'd say the Red splash version of DS would probally be best for that meta REB is highly effective against both Landstill and Threshold. Aggro Loam, Dragonstompy, and Survival are already fairly good matchups already. Also, it's a common misconception if you don't have Stifle/Nought in hand to mulligan. A slow hand with DS is perfectly fine in most matchups Standstill on itself will win you alot of games in alot of those matchups you listed. Krosan Grip you have to play around, like bait it out with a Counterbalance or force them to use it on Factory beats.

[neckfire]

yea the red splash i think right now is the best has.has anyone noticed the rise of 43 land again?or is it just me.

[HammafistRoob]

yea the red splash i think right now is the best has.has anyone noticed the rise of 43 land again?or is it just me.

Ever heard of a shift key? It helps you make capital letters.

I also don't think any list or splash is the best. It's all about play style and metagames. I like the white splash simply because Oblivion Ring is perfect for this deck, it answers things we hate.

If I were playing against Ichorid alot I would prefer Extirpate over both Jailer and Leyline. Extirpate can't be answered by Ichorid and it's really hard to play around. My problem with Jailer and Leyline vs. Ichorid is they can just bounce them(unless you have a shitton of counter in hand). Extirpate is also tank in other MU's such as Aggro Loam, Fetchland Tendrils, and Iggy pop.

[Rood]

I also don't think any list or splash is the best. It's all about play style and metagames. I like the white splash simply because Oblivion Ring is perfect for this deck, it answers things we hate.

If I were playing against Ichorid alot I would prefer Extirpate over both Jailer and Leyline. Extirpate can't be answered by Ichorid and it's really hard to play around. My problem with Jailer and Leyline vs. Ichorid is they can just bounce them(unless you have a shitton of counter in hand). Extirpate is also tank in other MU's such as Aggro Loam, Fetchland Tendrils, and Iggy pop.

I agree with Roob 100%, no splash or variant of DS is more superior than another. It's completely dependant on your meta and what you play against the most.

[Ch@os]

Gratz @ winning the tournament with a red splash, but i dont like the idea of playing REB.
In a LS & trash Meta i would play the white splash with Oblivion Ring and BtB in the SB.
So you can also handle 43.lands & LS with BtB and remove CB with O.Ring against *****.
Dont forget the Meddling Mages against those Grips or Combo.

All Dreadstill variants are good in ther specific metagame, but the white one seems best in a blind or random meta.

[TrialByFire]

All Dreadstill variants are good in ther specific metagame, but the white one seems best in a blind or random meta.

I think that prize goes to the green splash because K. Grip is just so broken in the meta right now.

[Rood]

If I were expecting to see more Counter/top Thresh than I did I would've definetally been running the Green Splash. Red Splash gives you outs against Landstill which has been seeing a growth as of late in my meta.

[HammafistRoob]

If I were expecting to see more Counter/top Thresh than I did I would've definetally been running the Green Splash. Red Splash gives you outs against Landstill which has been seeing a growth as of late in my meta.
Really, why haven't I seen any yet?

Also, I'm really trying to figure out which lsit is the stongest in the mirror. I beat a Ug build with Goyfs and Grips with my white list. It might just be because I know the deck well and the guy I played against picked it up like 2 days before the tournament. I would like to hear what you guys think about the mirror match.

[Rood]

Landstill players are drawn to me for some odd reasons, it seems like I'm always facing one in first round of a tournament. Green Splash is probally the strongest against the mirror, K Grip and possible (Goyf) from the board is a beating in the mirror matchup. If you honestly wanted you could literally just go strait up Goyf beat and not even have to use your Dreadnoughts to win for the mirror.

[HammafistRoob]

I think that White is probably the strongest in the mirror. With O Rings in the main you should almost always win game one since the other lists don't run maindeck answers to Dreadnought(except a one-of EE). You can bring in Mages against Ug to stop Krosan Grips and then the only answer they have to Nought is EE. I know resolving a Mage to win isn't a very good game plan, Ug will no doubt have a stronger match post board, but I think pulling out one of the post board games shouldn't be that difficult. White also has 6 cards to reveal off CB to counter a Krosan Grip if you play it right.

[Rood]

Has anyone else felt a need for 2-3 EE's in the sideboard for the pure aggro matchups? I'm debating upping my total amount of EE's to 3 or 4.

[Ch@os]

Really?
Against what? Goblin?
The real aggrodecks like Beatz or Zoo are dead or played by under ~5% of the people.
But against *****/WW they are gorgeous

Here my list iam testing at the weekend:


Mainboard:

Lands: [19]

3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
5 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures: [7]

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinked Mage

Spells: [34]

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
2 BEB
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Back to Basics
1 Pithing Needle

[J.V.]

Looks good Ch@os but I would go down to 2 tundra's and add another basic Island, you want more basics for your own B2B's and against Moons and wastelands also you never really need more than 1 white source.

[slyfer]

Have you guys tested 1x tormod's crypt maindeck? could be usefull...

[Ch@os]

Have you guys tested 1x tormod's crypt maindeck? could be usefull...

Yes, but needle is also usefull or maybe shackles or ... this list has no end and i must cut somewhere.


Looks good Ch@os but I would go down to 2 tundra's and add another basic Island, you want more basics for your own B2B's and against Moons and wastelands also you never really need more than 1 white source.

~, in some matchups MM comes in, with Oblivion Ring there are 7 white cards MB. Fetchies work under B2B, so 6 Fetchies & 6 Basics = 12 usefull lands.
Only 7 nonbasics are in the board, and against some wastelands/Port/Sinkhole/whatever i dont like the idea to have only one other Tundra/whitesource MB. But again it depends on playstyle and sure you can replace one Tundra with another Island or Academy Ruins maybe ;>. I'll test another Island and see how it works.

[Rood]

Have you guys tested 1x tormod's crypt maindeck? could be usefull...

Problem is, it has limited uses in many matches I can't see any reason to maindeck this over Needle or anything else in the main. Also if you were to run a Tormod's Crypt main you would surely need 1 Academy main.

[technogeek5000]

So why not run acadamey main. You have one explosive that you cant recur which would seem like you would have a hard time trying to get rid of things in the board. Tormod's is realy good against most decks in the meta and having one dead card in a few matchups beats not having it where it does shine.

[Rood]

We already run enough colorless mana sources as it is, I really wouldn't cut a Wasteland for an Acadamy and surely not any of my blue sources. Crypt is often times then a dead card to draw and it would have only limited uses where as Needle almost always has something you can get, even fetchlands if you need. Plus the decks where it shines against we already have positive matchups against except Ichorid. And postboard, Ichorid matchup is in our favor.

[NQN]

We already run enough colorless mana sources as it is, I really wouldn't cut a Wasteland for an Acadamy and surely not any of my blue sources. Crypt is often times then a dead card to draw and it would have only limited uses where as Needle almost always has something you can get, even fetchlands if you need. Plus the decks where it shines against we already have positive matchups against except Ichorid. And postboard, Ichorid matchup is in our favor.


With Crypt Maindeck I never lost a Match at a tournament. I faced Dredge four times now and won every Match.

[Clark Kant]

I'm running the white splash of the deck, but I'm currently running...

Lands: [19]

1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures: [7]

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

Spells: [34]

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle/Tormod's Crypt - Can't decide
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Similar to Choas' List except
+1 Academy Ruins
+2 Swords to Plowshares

I really think Swords is superior to both Daze and Spell Snare.

Daze is insane early game, but really starts sucking late game, which this deck goes into often thanks to Standstill. I think it works best as a 3 of since you get more benefit from your opponent playing around it.

and I have to say, I absolutely love both changes.

Academy Ruins is absolutely fantastic as a one of in this deck, letting you recur Dreadnoughts, EEs, Pithing Needles, everything.

But StP is the card that I want to talk about. Boy is this card good with standstill. Take out their threat, lay down Standstill is an absolutely fantastic play.

So much so that I want to play 4 MD Swords to Plowshares, or atleast 3.

Or perhaps I will play 2 Swords and 2 Oblivion Rings.

The problem is, I have absolutely no clue as to what I should cut to make this possible.

Any suggestions?

And Choas, do you think it's a mistake for me to run StP over Oblivion Ring. I like how fast StP is and how well it works in letting me play Standstill early. But maybe I'm making a mistake.

[Ch@os]

And Choas, do you think it's a mistake for me to run StP over Oblivion Ring. I like how fast StP is and how well it works in letting me play Standstill early. But maybe I'm making a mistake.

No, its a meta decision, against Lackey, 1.turn Hippie or 2. Turn Breakfast Ghoul or against stupid burn Sword is a good choice. Angainst an more "controlish" Meta O.Ring will solve your problems.


@List:
Iam not a big fan of playing 3 Daze, also i have kicked the needle/crypt/whatever slot, but my list is above ;p. Apart from that you can sure play this list.

[NQN]

Here is my actual list. I won 3/4 tournaments now so my record is 14-3.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
6 [P2] Island (3)
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 Tormods Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Tranquil Domain

In my area not that big so its important to be prepared for the 2-3 players who can beat me. Those three are Enchantress, Ichorid and Dragonstompy. That should explain the Crypt and the Domain ;)

[Rood]

Here is my actual list. I won 3/4 tournaments now so my record is 14-3.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
6 [P2] Island (3)
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 Tormods Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Tranquil Domain

In my area not that big so its important to be prepared for the 2-3 players who can beat me. Those three are Enchantress, Ichorid and Dragonstompy. That should explain the Crypt and the Domain ;)

Congrats on your success Dreadstill is having at your meta. I am a fan of the Back to Basics again after my latest tournament in Hadley. I managed to go undefeated up until T8 and got probally my worst matchup in the T8: Landstill. Game one I smashed on him with CB/top, G2 he savagely topdecks an EE and blow up my Dreadnought when it was for lethal and G3 he EE's for 3 blowing up 3 of my Trinket Mages. I realize now I probally should have held back on the third but he was at very low life. Total I went 3-1-2 beating

Tombstone (2-0)
Survival (2-0)
UW Dreadstill (2-1)
ID with Landstill
ID with Goblins

[Madmaniac21]

. I managed to convince my round three opponent to literally "give" me the win, and then I drew into Top 8.

EFT.

That was - hands down - easily the worst game of magic I have ever played.

Sucks you had to play landstill in top8, no B2b lovin?

As for the list; I really loved the white splash I played. I threw in E tutors, orings, and a shackles over the trinket mages, and I thought it played a whole lot better. Being able to tutor up shackles/CB/chill/other SB hate as well has dreadnought and top at instant speed was >>> trinket mage.

Also playing a 3rd top main was good, saw one every game I played.

I really believe MonoU is not the way to go with this list. The question is to figure out whether U/r, U/b, or U/w beats your meta and play that.

[Rood]

EFT.

That was - hands down - easily the worst game of magic I have ever played.

Sucks you had to play landstill in top8, no B2b lovin?

As for the list; I really loved the white splash I played. I threw in E tutors, orings, and a shackles over the trinket mages, and I thought it played a whole lot better. Being able to tutor up shackles/CB/chill/other SB hate as well has dreadnought and top at instant speed was >>> trinket mage.

Also playing a 3rd top main was good, saw one every game I played.

I really believe MonoU is not the way to go with this list. The question is to figure out whether U/r, U/b, or U/w beats your meta and play that.

Yeah I really had thought I had won that game...it was until after you scooped that Raiderbob has told me about the double bounce effect which apparently you overlooked too. So we both played it shitty, lol. Me for making that play and you for scooping to it. And yeah, B2B or Annuls are going into my board to ensure I defeat Landstill.

[Clark Kant]

As for the list; I really loved the white splash I played. I threw in E tutors, orings, and a shackles over the trinket mages, and I thought it played a whole lot better. Being able to tutor up shackles/CB/chill/other SB hate as well has dreadnought and top at instant speed was >>> trinket mage.

You know, I have to agree. Trinket Mage definately feels like the worst card in the deck. Esp with the white splash, you have so many great options. Enlightened Tutor as you mentioned for example. ET tutors for Shackles, Standstill, Counterbalance etc.

Mage is a 3cc tutor for artifacts with cc1 or less. The artifacts it tutors for are no doubt awesome, but the card itself is weak and eats up a turn.

I feel like the deck would be better off if it ran more bombs like Shackles.

Fact or Fiction could potentially replace Trinket Mage roo, it doesn't tutor for a card, but it gets you two or three solid cards.

Ancestral Visions could replace it as well.

Maybe it's time to boot the old Mage and use some broken card draw to get us the artifact bombs.

With such a build I would cut the Trickbinds altogether, but that means that the Dreadnought combo is a lot more inconsistent. :(

[Madmaniac21]

You know, I have to agree. Trinket Mage definately feels like the worst card in the deck.

It's a 3cc tutor for artifacts with cc1 or less. The artifacts it tutors for are no doubt awesome, but the card itself is weak and eats up a turn.

I feel like the deck would be better off if it ran more bombs like Shackles.

Fact or Fiction could potentially replace Trinket Mage, it doesn't tutor for a card, but it gets you two or three solid cards.

Ancestral Visions could replace it as well.

Maybe it's time to boot the old Mage and use some broken card draw to get us the artifact bombs.

Yes, something along these lines; Visions could be good, while FoF is the wrong way in my opinion. We don't run the late game as well as a pure control deck - the idea with the nought/stifle combo as well as top/CB is to run over our opponents in the early/mid game and win before the late. I'll post what I believe to be optimal ideas sometime tonight. I think the direction to take the deck is a more explosive landstill form.

Possibly focusing on more mana denial main, considering the 5-6 stifle effects.

I think running 4 wastes is key.

[Rood]

I can't ever justify cutting Trinket Mages down, he will literally win you so many games just from sheer beatdown when your oponent is holding a bunch of answers to kill your dreadnought (see Krosan Grip, threads.) I agree Enlightened is good, but you have more outs against hate to Dreadnoughts with Trinket Mages. It gives you an alternate win condition that's more stable then Factories. I can definetally see your argument to running 4 Wastes in the main. I've been trying to fit it in for a while now but I'm just not sure what to cut from my list. It is also our only OUTs for a CB Trigger of 3 to counter key spells like Witness, Krosan Grip cards we very well hate to see.

[Clark Kant]

I don't think Trinket Mage makes for a great alternate win condition. It's just a 2/2 with no evasion, it dies to every single creature in the format, and even when it doesn't is a 10 turn clock.

I would rather play Shackles in it's place and bash my opponents head in with their own Goyfs/Hyppes.

The big plus of Mages is def that it makes the dreadnought win condition so much more consistent. But it eats up a whole turn. If wizards ever printed a 1cc blue tutor for 1cc or less artifacts put directly into your hand, I would drop Mage to run that in a heart beat.

[Muradin]

The big plus of Mages is def that it makes the dreadnought win condition so much more consistent. But it eats up a whole turn. If wizards ever printed a 1cc blue tutor for 1cc or less artifacts put directly into your hand, I would drop Mage to run that in a heart beat.

I guess the closest thing to a cc1 tutor for artifacts is Artificer's Intuition. Nevertheless I think, that mage is actually quite good in Dreadstill, because he is card advantage and tutor power. Furthermore if someone doesn't know what exactly you're playing he might waste a removal on him.

[Rood]

My current sideboard looks something like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [6E] Chill
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul

Changes: -1 REB -1 Volc from board -1 Truth -1 Chill
+4 Annuls

I've come to believe Annul would increase our Landstill matchup quite favorable as well as our Angel Stax/Dragonstompy matchups. It's also quite good in the mirror and against CB/top Threshold.

[J.V.]

My current sideboard looks something like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [6E] Chill
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul

Changes: -1 REB -1 Volc from board -1 Truth -1 Chill
+4 Annuls

I've come to believe Annul would increase our Landstill matchup quite favorable as well as our Angel Stax/Dragonstompy matchups. It's also quite good in the mirror and against CB/top Threshold.

I still say -1 Annul +1 Echoing Truth

[Clark Kant]

I know that this the below list is a wholly seperate entity so feel free to ignore it completely.

But since the deck shares some several cards and you guys have a ton of experience with those same cards, I'm interested to hear your take on this...

2 Swamp
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance

The list is as of yet completely untested.

[HammafistRoob]

My current sideboard looks something like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [6E] Chill
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul

Changes: -1 REB -1 Volc from board -1 Truth -1 Chill
+4 Annuls

I've come to believe Annul would increase our Landstill matchup quite favorable as well as our Angel Stax/Dragonstompy matchups. It's also quite good in the mirror and against CB/top Threshold.

I don't really see how Annul could increase the Landstill matchup, B2B is probably better because it just shuts them down completely. Annul is only good if they tap out to play an Engineered Explosives, which will almost never happen.

Annul also wouldn't help at all against CBTop Thresh, what Artifacts are you gonna kill with it? It would be pretty decent in the mirror, I'll give you that. I also don't think we need any more help vs. Dragonstompy, that is quite an easy match for all varients of Dreadstill.

[Rood]

It just isn't artifacts Rob, it's also Enchantments it counters so you can hit Counterbalance, Threads of Disloyalty(you're familiar with this card), Deed, O-ring, Humility, the list goes on of cards we hate to see. B2B in our Wasteland build really wouldn't be ideal also seeing as we run 8 nonbasics postboard. Annul just hits so many things it's crazy in the Landstill matchup as well as many others.

[Clark Kant]

This is probably not worth it, but the Painter's Servant + Grindstone + Enlightened Tutor + Fabricate + Academy Ruins combo seems like it could fit in perfectly into this deck as a surprise comboesque win condition.

It certainly would be fun to use, esp given the synergy with the Dreadnoughts we already run.

And who knows, it might actually wind up being more competitive. Possibly Transmutate Artifact could work well here as well.

[Jaynel]

You're already running a 2 card combo - Dreadnought plus Stifle - that wins the game after two untap steps. The list is already REALLY tight as it is, and adding crap that doesn't synergize (at least I fail to see any synergy besides Trinket Mage into Grindstone) with the rest of the deck doesn't help.

[Clark Kant]

Well the combo wins two turns faster, isn't vulnerable to cards like Swords and Smother, and is a lot harder to disrupt. It gives you a whole different win condition, one more thing for your opponents to stop.

And you could always play Fabricate or Enlightened Tutor instead of Trinket Mage, as they tutor for both combo pieces, as well as Dreadnought, Top, and CB.

But I definately agree with your point.

The deck would have to be overhauled to support the combo. And odds are, the deck won't be the better for it. But I'm not positive that we can really know for sure until we try it.

[b4r0n]

Well the combo wins two turns faster, isn't vulnerable to cards like Swords and Smother, and is a lot harder to disrupt. It gives you a whole different win condition, one more thing for your opponents to stop.

This isn't true at all. Assuming a god draw for Servant/Grindstone, you win turn 3 (T1 Grindstone, T2 Servant, T3 tap and win). A god draw for Stifle/Nought wins on turn 4 (T2 Stifle+Nought, T3 hit for 12, T4 win). Also, Servant is vulnerable to almost all the removal that hits Nought. It's just as easy to disrupt the Servant/Grindstone combo by removing Servant in response to the Grindstone activation as it is to remove Nought. I just don't think it makes any sense to add the Servant/Grindstone combo to this deck; it would take up far too many slots to be worthwhile, neither piece is useful on its own, and it would only be providing a difficult-to-set-up alternate combo win to a deck that already has a pseudo combo win.


And you could always play Fabricate or Enlightened Tutor instead of Trinket Mage, as they tutor for both combo pieces, as well as Dreadnought, Top, and CB.

Trinket Mage beats for 2, which is actually really important. This is another reason why Servant/Grindstone doesn't fit into the deck: Servant isn't tutorable by Mage. You'd have to add suboptimal cards like Fabricate or Enlightened Tutor in order to search it out, weakening the strong core of the deck.


The deck would have to be overhauled to support the combo. And odds are, the deck won't be the better for it. But I'm not positive that we can really know for sure until we try it.

I'm positive that the deck would be worse with Servant/Grindstone in it. But by all means, try it out. Just don't get your hopes up.

[NQN]

Just to add something to the Trinket discussion:

I won several games and matches because i got only one hit with NOught and then finished him with a trinket. Also my sideboardplan against 3-4c NQG with smother and swords is to board NOughts out and kick their ass with Threads and B2b so that I am Mono Blue Control. Works very well since people in my area started to pack 4 Ancient Grudge just against me.

[Rood]

I'd just like to add I just faced a UWR Landstill player and won solely on Trinket Mage beatdown alone. It was a very close game but CB/Top with Trinket beatdown sealed it. I don't ever see cutting this guy he's just so vital to our backup gameplan strategy.

[J.V.]

Just figured I'd add your most recent M-L results. 2nd out of 51 (http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=41959&view=decks), not bad bagel.

[Bane of the Living]

I'd just like to add I just faced a UWR Landstill player and won solely on Trinket Mage beatdown alone. It was a very close game but CB/Top with Trinket beatdown sealed it. I don't ever see cutting this guy he's just so vital to our backup gameplan strategy.

If he's that vital a backup plan how bad would a one of battle axe be? What the hell is it called.. The mirrodin +2/+1 axe. Hell its not awfull for factories.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Bonesplitter? That could be what you mean, but it only gives +2/+0.

[Rood]

Bonesplitter? That could be what you mean, but it only gives +2/+0.

You know, from the board that's not really a crazy idea at all. It makes all of our cards threats to deal with and if we really wanted to we wouldn't have to rely on winning with dreadnoughts at all.

[J.V.]

Rodney Don't forget to add your Hadley results to the tournament History.
Also I cleaned it up a little for you here.

Magic League Masters 11/11/07: 6th out of 110 (http://www.magic-league.com/deck/37811/ub_dreadnaught.html#UB%20Dreadnaught59838)
4x Underground Sea Tournament Wareham, MA 12/29/07: 1st/2nd Split out of 25 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587&page=28)
Magic League Trial 2/20/08: 1st out of 62 (http://www.magic-league.com/deck/40416/legacy_t15.html)
4x Tarmogoyf Tournament Hadley, MA 3/8/08: 7th out of 40 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587&page=30)
$500 Pawtucket, RI 3/22/08: Top 4 Split out of 25 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=217803#post217803)
4x Volcanic Island Tournament Wareham, MA 4/12/08: 1st out of 32 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=223859#post223859)
4x Tarmogoyf Tournament Hadley, MA 4/19/08: 5th out of 31 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8883&page=9)
Magic League Trial 4/22/08: 2nd out of 51 (http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=41959&view=decks)

[Rood]

My current list..

// Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [US] Annul
SB: 3 [ARE] Chill
SB: 1 [ARE] Bonesplitter

Yes I am testing out 1 Bonesplitter in the board! As of yet it's hardly been tested but against heavy control decks it makes all of our threats (Trinket, Factory) very deadly postboard. Annuls are obviously in there for the annoying matchups (Landstill, Stax, Dstompy, C-top Thresh etc.) The REBS just haven't been pulling their weight lately.

[Maagler]

so i tested the bonesplitter, found it to be less than useful. but it did get me thinking about other trinket targets.

here is what I came up with that may be useful:
seat of the synod
aether spellbomb
meekstone (anti synergy with nought but great against those pesky goyfs and other random aggro. I am thinking one side might be ok)
cursed scroll
Triangle of War
ornithopter
Voyager Staff
Mishra's Bauble
Scrabbling Claws
Magma Mine

less useful ones:
welding jar
Zuran Orb
Phyrexian Marauder
Phyrexian Walker
sheild sphere
steel wall
straw golem
Myr Mindservant (good with top)
Feldon's Cane
Glasses of Urza
the rack
dark sphere
Viridian Longbow+brassman=tec
Ivory tower
lotus petal
Liar's Pendulum
Despotic Scepter


Idk any thoughts?

[herbig]

so i tested the bonesplitter, found it to be less than useful. but it did get me thinking about other trinket targets.

Aether vial?

[Jaiminho]

Viridian Longbow+brassman=tec

What? Dealing 1 damage per turn is tech now?

[Maagler]

What? Dealing 1 damage per turn is tech now?

cant you deal lots during your upkeep?

[Adan]

cant you deal lots during your upkeep?

Lol, no:

Brass Man

Artifact Creature - Construct 1/3, 1 (1)
Brass Man doesn't untap during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay {1}. If you do, untap Brass Man. 1
Illus. Christopher Rush

You can only do it once.

[Illissius]

Works with Colossus of Sardia though!

[Metaknight]

Works with Colossus of Sardia though!

fuck yeah, all we need is 180 mana. we can do that right?

[Rood]

What are people currently running in their SB slots?

[NQN]

In my meta is play:
3 Echoing Truth - Great against CHalice STompy and Enchantress
2 Tormods Crypt - One maindeck cause i ALWAYS face dredge
1 Pithing Needle - flexiblity at its best
2 Tranquil Domain - Enchantress is a tough matchup which gets really favourable with these
2 Threads of Disloyalty - Against 4c ***** with too many removal for Dread
3 Annul - Same as needle, improves our bad matchups
2 Back to Basics - Loam and Landstill hoser

I play 1 Tropical maindeck as well and 4 snare instead of the second trickbind. I`m wondering if i should try to play this at a 50+ tournament(without the meta-specific choices obv) but im not sure whether UWb landstill is better because I have much practice with Dreadstill :S What do you guys think, can it win in a random meta with many many different decks?

[Rood]

Dreadstill is great at winning in a diverse field of decks. I personally think this deck is a stronger choice than UWb Landstill especially if you have lots of practice with this deck.

[Ch@os]

Dreadstill is great at winning in a diverse field of decks. I personally think this deck is a stronger choice than UWb Landstill especially if you have lots of practice with this deck.

Hard to say, i wont say that so easy.

@SB:

3x Back to Basics
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Meddling Mage
2x EE
2x BEB
1x Pithing Needle

Meta is a lot of NQG/x, Landstill, survival ...


@ MB:

Have you guys ever feelt to add a 4. Counterbalance? In some Matchups i need CB so hard its disgusting.

[Rood]

The slot to cut for the 4th CB would most likely be the 2nd Trickbind if you were to go that route. Haven't actually tested 4 CBs maindecked I sometimes find 3 to be alot because drawing that card in multiples is aweful. My board-

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle (versatility)
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (So good against Thresh/random aggro decks)
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth (Stax, Enchantress, ETW Storm)
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid)
SB: 4 [US] Annul (Landstill, Mirror, Ctop Thresh, Stax, Enchantress, etc)
SB: 3 [ARE] Chill (Sligh/Dragonstompy) =]

[hrun]

I've been playing around with Cemetery Puca instead of trickbind. Absolute garbage against goblins, but its better against landstill and other non-removal. Meh. Mostly its just fun to beat down with the Puke-a. Any other thoughts on that guy?

[Dr. DOOM]

About Back to Basics in sideboard: You might as well scoop if you play that, unless it is meant as a "win more" card, which means you shouldn't play it either. Look at the lands this deck is running for heaven's sake.

About Trinkets: Aether Vial is nice, you can also have a single Chalice of the void in Sideboard to set at 2, against Pikula/Sui black and Loam

[J.V.]

About Trinkets: Aether Vial is nice, you can also have a single Chalice of the void in Sideboard to set at 2, against Pikula/Sui black and Loam

Hmmm... Shutting down your Counterbalances and Standstills (the best cards in your deck against Pikula like decks...) seems like a fantastic idea. :wink:

[Rood]

About Back to Basics in sideboard: You might as well scoop if you play that, unless it is meant as a "win more" card, which means you shouldn't play it either. Look at the lands this deck is running for heaven's sake.

I cut it for this reason from my board. A majority of the time I'd only have 1-2 Islands at most rest being Mishra's/Wastelands. I think a list running B2B would probally want to cut the Wastelands from the main for more basic Islands.

[georgjorge]

I like the concept of Standstill in a not-so-boring deck as Landstill...however, I run into situations where I drop it, then my Factory is wasted, and I have to wait forever for the next one (unless I got Top down, of course), sometimes benefitting my opponent more then myself. Anyone else have problems with running only four manlands as opposed to Landstills six or seven (plus Wastelands) ?

[Rood]

That happens sometimes, I Can't say you would want to run any more then 4 Manlands, as the colorless mana can sometimes hurt us. Often times this only happens against decks like Landstill where they just sit there with Wastes. In that matchup, I don't think Standstill should be even played to start unless you have at least 2 Manlands in hand. Against other decks that pack Wastelands (Aggro Loam, Goblins) if they have no relevant threats in play and a bunch of Wastelands they will almost always pop the Standstill regardless.

[b4r0n]

I like the concept of Standstill in a not-so-boring deck as Landstill...however, I run into situations where I drop it, then my Factory is wasted, and I have to wait forever for the next one (unless I got Top down, of course), sometimes benefitting my opponent more then myself. Anyone else have problems with running only four manlands as opposed to Landstills six or seven (plus Wastelands) ?

If your opponent isn't breaking your Standstill, either they're playing a deck that will function better under the Standstill than you (like Landstill, 43Lands, or Ichorid) or they're playing poorly. By not breaking the Standstill, they let you develop your manabase, draw into more Factories, and sculpt a perfect hand.

And worse comes to worse, you can always break your own Standstill during their turn with a Brainstorm or Stifle and minimize the card advantage that they generate by forcing them to discard multiple cards at the end of their turn. You can avoid this by recognizing when and against what decks dropping a Standstill is a terrible idea.

[georgjorge]

By not breaking the Standstill, they let you develop your manabase, draw into more Factories, and sculpt a perfect hand.

While that's true, it also applies to them - they can just as well develop their manabase, draw into Wastelands, and sculpt a perfect hand. If they play more lands, they can often do it better. This is true for control decks in general, not only 43Lands. Seeing as how this deck doesn't play so many control components (and some cards that become outright useless, like Daze), I think the above situation of benefitting less from the Standstill than your opponent is not limited to the three decks you mentioned.

[NQN]

Back to basics is insane if you play it right. The landstill matchup is so horrible without them... I actually had to face 4c landstill and won 2-1 just because of two b2b in g2 and g3. Since you have 6 Basics and 6 fetchies to get them it shouldn´t be a problem to get some.

[Skullclamping]

And it also helps a lot vs Thresh builds with lots of non-basics, like 4c or even 3, sometimes (specially if they pack Wastelands)

[Dr. DOOM]

Hmmm... Shutting down your Counterbalances and Standstills (the best cards in your deck against Pikula like decks...) seems like a fantastic idea. :wink:

Well, as I said, you include a single chalice, as a Trinket Mage target to look for. With a single chalice and four Trinket Mage, you actually have the choice to play it AFTER resolving a counterbalance and AFTER your opponent breaks a Standstill. But hey, the best timing to play it is something you already figured out, I noticed :wink:

[Rood]

I don't see any need for a Chalice if a CB is already in play. It would just hurt you more than your oponent.

[Ch@os]

What do you guys think of adding a second wincondition like Hoofprints?

Examplelist (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15696) , i think they just forget the Factory's in this list, 55 card list.

I've played yesterday a few games with a semilar list and its not that bad, but really needed?

[vanele]

I'd say it seems like a win more card, you already have 3 Different ways to win the game. Sure, its great under Standstill but at that point factories are getting the job done or a Dreadnaught is swinging for win. Also, doesn't pitch to Force, which I'd say matters.

[Stooghenstein]

What do you guys think of adding a second wincondition like Hoofprints?

Examplelist (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15696) , i think they just forget the Factory's in this list, 55 card list.

I've played yesterday a few games with a semilar list and its not that bad, but really needed?

Im not really for it in my opinion as stated its a win more card, as far as a white card to put in the main, try Oblivion Ring it has been tested and been proven fairly useful as a really good removal against cards such as humility if it resolves etc, and also can setup for a standstill if a beater resolves with no factories in play. The deck's win condition is either win through standstill with a bunch of small beaters(factories, trinket mage) or go for the quick "W" with dreadnaught from what I've seen and experienced.. Why add a win more card to a deck that doesn't need it, if the deck was having issues with getting kill factors then I could see considering it.

[Rood]

Tarmodual Tournament - Asociación Último Exilio
Rivas (Madrid), Spain
51 players

1) Jaime Cano - 4c Landstill
2) Pablo David Díaz - Eternal Garden
3) Pedro Juan Fajardo - Fatnought (Dreadstill)
4) Francisco García Vizcaino - White Stax
5) Alberto Romero - Affinity
6) Alberto Varela - Faerie Stompy
7) Victor Martín - White Stax
8) Oscar Reoyo - Suicide

This is really awesome, I hope more players start picking up this deck really nice to see others do well with it.

[thelfj]

Can someone please elaborat as to which splashes are better against which decks?

[Rood]

Green Splash is really good against Countertop or just K-grip type hate (see Goyf), Red splash works so well against decks like MUC, Thresh, sometimes Landstill. White is awesome against an unknown meta, you get Mage and O-Rings.

[Elfrago]

Some thoughts of mine about splashing:

Since we already play 7-8 colorless lands we can't afford to have a non-blue basic ( or at least it is preferrable not to have one) in our deck and we will have to rely on dual-lands to use our splash cards.
Having one of our dual lands wasted sucks:
- the decks plays very few lands, so getting one wasted hurts
- our splash color cards are now stuck in our hands (we could play 2x of dual lands but IHMO it really hurts our manabase)

So our non-blue sideboard cards should either be:


Useful aganist those decks that do not pack wasteland
So game breaking that even casting only one of them turns the match in our favor


Usually the decks we will face in a tournament can be divided in the following categories:

Goblins
*****
Landstill
Prison decks (Angel Stax, Enchantress)
Combo
Grave based decks (Ichorid, Breakfast...)
Non-Blue Control (Tombstone, the rock and such...)
Varius Aggro
Random Crap


So, based on those thoughts lets analize each one:

Goblins:
Red offers: Piroclasm (is it game breaking enough?)
Black offers: Engineered Plague (is it game breaking enough?)
Green offers: Tarmogoyf (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Hydroblast and BEB

Landstill
Green offers: Krosan Grip (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Annul

Varius Aggro (assuming they do pack wastelands)
Red offers: Piroclasm (is it game breaking enough?)
Green offers: Tarmogoyf (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Propaganda

*****
White offers: Jotun Grunt
Green offers: Tarmogoyf
Black offers: Smother
Blue offers: Threads of Disloyalty

Prison
White offers: Serenity
Blue offers: Annul
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives
(I did not consider cards useful in only one of the two matchups)

Combo
Maindeck should be good enough for combo, but anyway:
White offers: Meddling Mage
Black offers: Duress, Thoughtseize,
Blue offers: Arcane Lab, Trickbind
Red: Pirostatic Pillar
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives, Chalices

Grave Based(Ichorid, Breakfast...)
White offers: Morningtide
Black offers: Leyline, Planar Void
Green: Ground Seal
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives, Tormods

Non-Blue Control (Tombstone, the rock and such...)
I really have no idea...

There is probably a lot of things missing but I tried to exclude sub-par cards, things useful only for a specific matchups, and things that don't fit well in the (1) and (2).

IHMO white gets the edge on the others thanks to Meddling, and mostly, Serenity.
Thoughts?

[Rood]

Goyf is so good from the board for the simple fact he makes alot of your oponent's hate irrelevant (Grip, Grudge.) I've never really been a fan of MM with Wasteland build, you'd almost certainly have to drop the Wastes for MM splash I've seen it and it's sometimes very hard to get UW with the colorless mana we run.

[Maagler]

this deck got a 1st out of 57

1) Saverio Magri - UG Dreadstill

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 FoW
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

2 Crucible
1 EE
1 Top
1 Crypt

3 Trinket Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Dreadnought

3 Strand
3 Delta
4 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tropical Island
4 Factory

SB:
3 Grip
1 EE
3 Propaganda
2 Crypt
1 Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Echoing Truth

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090&page=3


Interesting things about this deck:
only one top
maindeck crypt
no maindeck needle
maindeck Crucible
Academy Ruins

[Rood]

It's an interesting list to say the least. I'm not sure how I feel on Crucible in the main but I definetally do like the Goyfs.

[FredMaster]

Random thoughts:
1. Wtf? 3 Dreadnoughts?
2. Crucible - are we really so much Landstill? (I don't think so)
3. 3 Dazes - bad as always
4. 3 Trinket Mage - since we have a pretty big Toolbox and Academ Ruins it is the incorrect number imo
5. Maindeck Tarmogoyf - I personally don't like that card in the maindeck, it just doesn't fit into the game plan. Coming suprisingly out of the sideboard it is an option tho. But not Mainboard - and not two!!

Well congrats to the finish tho, I like Dreadstill after all :laugh:

[Bane of the Living]

It's an interesting list to say the least. I'm not sure how I feel on Crucible in the main but I definetally do like the Goyfs.

I added goyf a while ago. I can't see a good arguement against him really. He's a much better alternate win condition than Trinket Mage beats. He eat's up removal spells for Dreadnought. You can also play your own goyf before a Standstill if your opponent already has one out. This deck has little to no removal so matching goyfs is great.

[Rood]

Can't say as I like Goyf in the main, G1 the oponent lacks the spells that hurt us the most anyways like Krosan Grip. Coming from the board would be alot more powerful seeing as the oponent wouldn't be seeing it coming and Goyf would laugh at Krosan's face all day ;).

[thefreakaccident]

Sorry, but I had a great build for a dreadnought deck that I have been testing, and I wanted input... all the other threads have died, so I will post the list here... plz tell me what you guys think:

lands//20
1 academy ruins
8 island
2 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
1 forest
4 tropical island


creatures//10
3 trinket mage
3 phyrexian dreadnought
4 tarmogoyf

spells//30
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
4 daze

4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
2 thirst for knowledge

3 vedalken shackles
1 engineered explosives
4 stifle
1 trickbind


sideboard//
3 tormod's crypt
4 propaganda
4 back to basics
4 krosan grip



The deck has been doing quite well for me, having a very good cc range:

5cc - 4 cards
3cc - 8 cards
2cc - 13 cards
1cc - 14 cards


This makes the CB engine quite strong... I also have plenty of islands so I can also support the shackles quite effectively, and with the beaters this deck has at its' disposal already it is pretty solid at just stealing possible blockers.

Thirst is more like a filterer/cantrip in the deck, and occasionally throws away an extra top or shackles... the ability to bring back those cards as well is also huge (making grip less devastating in the late game).


What do you guys think of the deck?

Truthfully...

[NQN]

Doesn´t looks good to me. Shackles seems way to clunky since you often have only 3-4 lands. Also the disruption plan goes down if you cut wasteland and as a result you loose a lot of flexibility.

[Bane of the Living]

Can't say as I like Goyf in the main, G1 the oponent lacks the spells that hurt us the most anyways like Krosan Grip. Coming from the board would be alot more powerful seeing as the oponent wouldn't be seeing it coming and Goyf would laugh at Krosan's face all day ;).

I don't understand your logic here.

Your saying the lack of Krosan Grip is why Nought is so good in game one, I understand that. Yet sideboarding Goyf's against Grip seems like the wrong way to go. If any card should come in against Grip it's Meddling Mage.

If your playing Goyf in the maindeck he'll be there as a back up plan game one and game two. You'll save yourself precious sideboard space that can be used against bad matchups. It's not like your opponent is sideboarding out their Swords to Plowshare's for Krip so you'll probably want a good amount of threats to match their removal.


I've been testing Declaration of Naught against Krosan Grip. It's great if your not playing Meddling Mage. It gets around Orims Chant against combo, kinda neat.

[Rood]

I don't understand your logic here.

Your saying the lack of Krosan Grip is why Nought is so good in game one, I understand that. Yet sideboarding Goyf's against Grip seems like the wrong way to go. If any card should come in against Grip it's Meddling Mage.
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, the removal the oponent does have G1 is all things that are easy to deal with (Counterbalance, Force.) Why maindeck Goyfs over Trinket Mage g1 when Trinket Mage has so many answers to alot of decks we do not like to see G1 such as Dragonstompy and Stax or Ichorid (for Crypt builds). Mage coming from the board isn't exactly ideal because you have to cut Wastes in order to reliable get him out since we run 7 Colorless sources. Having Goyf come from the board is basically the same logic you're using~he's another threat but G1 when they don't have their hate in I'd still have to say Trinket Mage is a much more viable slot to have.


If your playing Goyf in the maindeck he'll be there as a back up plan game one and game two. You'll save yourself precious sideboard space that can be used against bad matchups. It's not like your opponent is sideboarding out their Swords to Plowshare's for Krip so you'll probably want a good amount of threats to match their removal.
Agreed Goyf does make a wonderful back up plan but game one is he really a necessary backup plan then what we already run? Most people don't maindeck too much removal and what removal they have I'd say is fairly easy enough to deal with. G2 and G3 he becomes alot more deadly for one, your oponent won't be expecting him and two he makes alot of your oponents cards pretty dead. A good sideboard plan would probally be

-1 Trinket Mage
-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trickbind
+4 Goyf


I've been testing Declaration of Naught against Krosan Grip. It's great if your not playing Meddling Mage. It gets around Orims Chant against combo, kinda neat.

I haven't actually tested this but It could certainly be good in the right meta.

[Nihil Credo]

I've been testing Declaration of Naught against Krosan Grip. It's great
Change your member description to "I don't even read the cards I test".

[TrialByFire]

Change your member description to "I don't even read the cards I test".

Beat me to it. :cool:

Welcome to Split Second.

[Clark Kant]

Lol @ Naught.

Goyf is good here for the same reason he is good in every single deck. Because he's a freaking vanilla 4/5 for 2 mana. OMG! That's so broken. He's a four turn clock for just two mana! That's freaking fantastic.

I think Goyf should be an automatic 4 of in every single deck there is in every single format there is. I am not even joking.

I can't think of a single deck that wouldn't instantly jump up a tier by splashing green to play Goyf. :wink:

Atleast in a deck with a creature based win condition that plays Standstill and splashes green already anyways.

[Michael Keller]

Lol @ Naught.

Goyf is good here for the same reason he is good in every single deck. Because he's a freaking vanilla 4/5 for 2 mana. OMG! That's so broken. He's a four turn clock for just two mana! That's freaking fantastic.

I think Goyf should be an automatic 4 of in every single deck there is in every single format there is. I am not even joking.

I can't think of a single deck that wouldn't instantly jump up a tier by splashing green to play Goyf. :wink:

Atleast in a deck with a creature based win condition that plays Standstill and splashes green already anyways.

That's garbage.

[Clark Kant]

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

[Bovinious]

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

Oh thank God you were kidding, for a minute there I thought you were a complete moron :wink:

[Clark Kant]

:laugh:

Seriously though. I think Jotun Grunt would be fantastic in this deck as 2/3 of.

Not only does it hate on Ichorid, it's a fantastic tool against Threshold, Goyf, Tombstalker, Mongoose, Mystic Enforcer and pretty much most of the entire format. Not to mention that it's a great beatstick.

It's likely very maindeckable as a two of.

I highly recommend testing it. Hell, I bet threshold would run Jotun Grunt too if it didn't interfere with their entire gameplan.

Here is what I'm going to be running from now on...

My Recommended List:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Trinket Mage

//Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
1 Trickbind
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Back to Basics
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Honestly, my only remaining concern with this deck is, what to sideboard out against what matchups. I find sideboarding out cards is very difficult, as the mainboard is extremely tight as is.

[Cait_Sith]

Ichorid's strategy is to dump their ENTIRE library into their graveyard by turn 3. Grunt hits two cards by turn 3.

It hates Ichorid with the same skill Extract hates TES.

It doesn't do much relevant at all in the maindeck. It can be excellent sideboard hate against Thresh, but I don't know if this deck even needs it.

The card is strong, this is something I have been saying in T2 for a long time (I ran 3 MD in Boros to tremendous effect). However, Grunt runs partially counter to the gameplan of Still, so I could not see t MD.

SB it would depend on the meta, but is possible.

[Clark Kant]

You can slow Ichorid a bit with FoW. It removes Bridge from Below if they play it too early etc.

How does it run counter to this deck's game plan?

Does this deck run Tombstalker?

Does this deck run Tarmogoyf?

Is it a pure combo deck that doesn't care about attacking?

Is it a pure control deck that doesn't care about attacking?

Those are the four things that kept Jotun Grunt from being played in other decks.

But none of that applies here.

It works great with Standstill. You can lay it and lay Standstill and beat for a few turns thus forcing them to want to break Standstill asap. Else, it attacks for a while under Standstill and then dies, but only after bringing them so that I attack from Dreadnought will finish them off, and gives you something to do till you draw into manlands.

[Jaiminho]

How about it doesn't deal enough damage to get even close to winning under a Standstill?

[J.V.]

You can slow Ichorid a bit with FoW. It removes Bridge from Below if they play it too early etc.

How does it run counter to this deck's game plan?

Does this deck run Tombstalker?

Does this deck run Tarmogoyf?

Is it a pure combo deck that doesn't care about attacking?

Is it a pure control deck that doesn't care about attacking?

Those are the four things that kept Jotun Grunt from being played in other decks.

But none of that applies here.

It works great with Standstill. You can lay it and lay Standstill and beat for a few turns thus forcing them to want to break Standstill asap. Else, it attacks for a while under Standstill and then dies, but only after bringing them so that I attack from Dreadnought will finish them off, and gives you something to do till you draw into manlands.

Grunt doesn't have a home in Dreadstill you already have good GY hate in the form of 3 tutorable Tormod's Crypts. As far as beats under SS Mishra's Factory works just fine. And in the addition beater department you'd be surprised how often 2 factories and a Trinket Mage get there, but if we really wanted another we would go back to Green Splash side another Tropical Island and throw Tarmogoyfs in the board in addition to the Krosan Grips. So please enoug of this, it's nauseating.

[Cait_Sith]

Deck's plan:

Control games viciously. Drop giant dude for the win.

It takes THREE successful attacks for Grunt to actually shave a turn off of Dreads attack. Even then, you only buy a turn. You could use those slots for either someone who is nice enough to stick around and keep bashing (Tarmogoyf) or for some answers to creatures (StP/Wrath).


You can slow Ichorid a bit

So they will kill us turn 4 instead of turn 3? Awesome! We still lose well under the time limit in that circumstance.


Does this deck run Tombstalker?

It is better than Grunt MD. Overall faster, more resilient, more evasive, and only takes two attacks (both more likely to connect too) to shave of a Dread turn. This card can even go lethal on its own reliably.


Does this deck run Tarmogoyf?

Do the lists that win run it? Yes, yes they do. Ergo, this deck does, doesn't it?


Is it a pure combo deck that doesn't care about attacking?

Since white based combo was popular anyway. Everyone knows FT and TES started white, but decided to branch out their options into black.


Is it a pure control deck that doesn't care about attacking?

No such thing at this point. However, this is a typical control deck where you want to show an attacker only when your opponent's defenses are managed. You then use a powerful/resilient creature to quickly take them down to 0.

In effect, the answer to that question is "Yes."


Those are the four things that kept Jotun Grunt from being played in other decks.

Other considerations include:

What slot would it take up? Is the fact that it doesn't last worth the fact that this card vanishes after a relatively short period?

How long can I sustain this card? Can I fill my graveyard enough to keep it around for 2-3 turns, or even beyond?

Is the fact of any evasive abilities detrimental due to its limited time of existence?

I am sure there are more if you look for them.


But none of that applies here.

I already have disproved one of your four original points and showed that there are more that you did not consider.


It works great with Standstill. You can lay it and lay Standstill and beat for a few turns thus forcing them to want to break Standstill asap.

For this to be true there need to be at least 2 cards in one graveyard and four in another. Given that this would be getting on later in the game, if you can Control the game to the point where you can safely drop the Grunt, wouldn't Dreadnought simply be the superior card at this point?


Else, it attacks for a while under Standstill and then dies, but only after bringing them so that I attack from Dreadnought will finish them off, and gives you something to do till you draw into manlands.

Okay, so it dies after 1-2 attacks, great. You know have a Standstill and, thanks to your astronomical manland count of 4, a very small chance of finding the lands you want until they break the Standstill on their terms. God help you if they have Wastelands, because that may be enough to prevent you from winning entirely.

The situation is just too contrived to be considered viable; this is particularly so because you are relying on Grunt to hit multiple times when, often, it will just not have the number of cards in graveyards to do so. In order for there to be the 8 in a single graveyard, you often have gotten the game to the point where Dreadnought will already be able to come down and, in that case, it will simply take THREE turns less than Grunt--->Dreadnought would (unless, of course, you foolishly played both near the same time. Even then, it would take longer and simply add pointless risk.).

[J.V.]

Do the lists that win run it? Yes, yes they do. Ergo, this deck does, doesn't it?


Nope it doesn't (like I said it would be in the side at best if we were too). But the rest of your points were pretty valid so it can slide. :wink:

[Cait_Sith]

Hey, a bunch of top decklists run them!, just not very many. Magri has but 2 Tarmogoyfs main and one additional one side. They are a nice a addition, but not quite needed.

The real question is, if Tarmogoyf isn't an auto include at a four of and, if it is included but only as a 2-3 of, then why should Grunt, a card that tends to be weaker in this scenario, be?

[Clark Kant]

Because Goyf is a vanilla beatstick whereas Grunt has an ability that is a huge bomb against almost all the top decks in the format.

It's ability shuts down threshold completely or slows them down by several turns. The fact that Grunt does this over multiple turns is actually an advantage over Crypt in most situations. You drop crypt, clear their yard, and they spend the next few turns making a full recovery. Whereas, you play Grunt, almost immediately shrink their Goyf so that they can no longer block a 4/4 with it. Then over multiple turns, you empty their yard. Those are turns where your opponent can't try to make a recovery, because it would only be helping out Grunt. So they end up being more turns behind than with Crypt.

It's ability greatly slows down all the various decks that run and rely on tombstalker.

It's ability is useful agianst loam based decks and against ichorid.

It's a tormod's crypt that beats for atleast 8 damage frequently. Yes, that does mean Dreadnought will win the game in one attack as opposed to two.

But really, you claim that you win many games by beating down with Trinket Mage and Factories. Jotun Grunt makes it that much more likely you can do that. If Jotun Grunt deals 12 damage, which is actually fairly easy to do, then you just need 4 attacks with either Factory or Mage to finish them off.

You guys are looking at Grunt wrong. It's hate against the most popular deck in the format (threshold), another extremely popular deck (tombstalker based aggro such as eva green and pox variants) and against several other decks first and foremost.

The fact that it is a beatstick is extremely good too, but it's not it's only function.

If all I wanted was a beatstick, I would play Goyf.

If all I wanted was graveyard hate, I would play Crypt.

But the fact is, I want both, and Jotun Grunt delivers, in a big way.

The fact that it just flat out outclasses opposing Goyfs (the most popular creature in the format) is just icing on the two layer cake.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Goyf is a vanilla beatstick

This argument is over a year old and it still doesnt add up to squat.


(Grunt) is a tormod's crypt that beats for atleast 8 damage frequently.

Tormods, crypt costs zero and provides and instant speed removal of the WHOLE graveyard as early as turn 1. The two arent even close. Crypt actually provides an obstacle for Ichorid. Jotun Grunt come on early as turn 2, sits there for a turn and then maybe gets to remove 2 cards before they combo out in your face.


If all I wanted was a beatstick, I would play Goyf.

If all I wanted was graveyard hate, I would play Crypt.

But the fact is, I want both, and Jotun Grunt delivers, in a big way.

Clark, you sound like a Jotun Grunt salesman. You could replace Jotun Grunt and Crypt with Ford Taurus or Heineken, and it would be pretty much the same. Establish a false dilemma and then present your product as an alternative.

Watch:

If all I wanted was a truck, I would drive a pickup.

If all I wanted was sports car, I would drive a coupe.

But the fact is, I want both, and the 1978 Chevy El Camino delivers, in a big way.



Theres nothing there, no argument, just salesmanship.

Plz, stop writing posts that take up half a page and say nothing.

[Cait_Sith]

Okay, Clark. I will explain this to you very clearly:

Grunt is slow. Slow is bad. It takes SEVERAL TURNS before it can effectively used. Just because it costs 2 doesn't mean it can be dropped turn 2. I think that you need to realize that immediately needs "now." It can take 2-3 turns before Grunt can reliably shrink Goyf. Sure, the ultimate outcome is nice, but this isn't magic.


But really, you claim that you win many games by beating down with Trinket Mage and Factories. Jotun Grunt makes it that much more likely you can do that. If Jotun Grunt deals 12 damage, which is actually fairly easy to do, then you just need 4 attacks with either Factory or Mage to finish them off.

Note: I never claimed that I won by beating down with Manlands and Mages. Cames can be won with that, but I never said it was the big way to go.

Honestly, dealing 12 is EASY? This assumes your opponent has done nothing for much of the game save put cards in his graveyard. I have only once evr seen grunt actually deal for 2 and that was against me when I ended up being severely manascrewed when playing Black Based Control.


You guys are looking at Grunt wrong. It's hate against the most popular deck in the format (threshold), another extremely popular deck (tombstalker based aggro such as eva green and pox variants) and against several other decks first and foremost.

You are looking at grunt wrong. You are right, it is great hate. However, when you are not busy hating, Grunt is busy wasting space. This would mean that Grunt would be an excellent sideboard cad, but not worthy of maindeck inclusion as you are arguing for.

Honestly,You seem to think everyone is going to be "Wow, a creature that could trouble me! I wish I had a way of dealing with it!" Maybe someone will next invent a way to counter spells and remove creatures.


If all I wanted was a beatstick, I would play Goyf.

If all I wanted was graveyard hate, I would play Crypt.

If all I wanted was a decent way of winning, I would play Goyf.

If all I wanted was decent hate against decks like Thresh and Ichorid, I would play Crypt.[/quote]


But the fact is, I want both, and Jotun Grunt delivers, in a big way.

You know what delivers more? Goyf MD and Crypt SB.


The fact that it just flat out outclasses opposing Goyfs (the most popular creature in the format) is just icing on the two layer cake.

It takes time to outclass those Goyfs, like I said before. You seem to be thinking that your Goyfs will be sitting there for 3-4 turns unopposed while your opponent generously fills his graveyard to keep it in play. Magic doesn't work that way. If your opponent is threatened by it, they will try to stop it. And yes, if they are playing a slower grave dependent deck, and yes, if you can get the thing to stick around then yes, Grunt is good.

Otherwise, it is a VERY bad Goyf.

[Rood]

The main problem with hating on graveyards is Dreadstill doesn't really need to accomplish this. I mean sure, if you really see alot of Ichorid then run 1 Crypt in the main but that's it. Grunt just isn't fast enough I'm afraid I think you'd be better off testing something else in that slot like O-Ring.

[Maagler]

two more placings with dreadstill at Ancient Memory Convention 35th. 6th and 7th out of 53 people.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Dreadstill&format=Legacy

one of the decks ran Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. I personally don't like him but have also not tested him.

[Illissius]

Maybe this has been covered, but do Dreadnought-Stifle and Standstill-Factory have some sort of synergy with each other I am missing? What incentive is there to play these two specifically in the same deck, as opposed to, um, other things?

[Rood]

Gives you the ability to win those matchups Landstill has trouble with with an explosive two turn clock. Standstill and Dreadnought are great together you use the CA from Standstill to instead of controlling their board to drop a Dreadnought and win with countermagic. They actually are synergenic.

[Cait_Sith]

Maybe this has been covered, but do Dreadnought-Stifle and Standstill-Factory have some sort of synergy with each other I am missing? What incentive is there to play these two specifically in the same deck, as opposed to, um, other things?

Nought-Stifle is an immensely powerful combo, but it needs protection for the 2 (rarely 3) turns it takes for Nought to rip your opponent's life to shreds. Landstill offers one of the most comprehensive defensive mechanisms there is.

Dreadstll trades a slow reliable engine of kill everything, play wincon, hope to not go to time with a much weaker defensive shell, but is has the power to win much faster. Due to the presence of maindeck Stifles/Trickbinds, plus Dreadnought being able to wipe out an opponent quickly, I would estimate that Dreadstill has one of the highest matchups against combo in the format.

I think I will do some testing to confirm this.

[whienot]

I would estimate that Dreadstill has one of the highest matchups against combo in the format.


I would definitely agree with you. Especially the black splash. Thoughtseize + Stifle murders storm combo.

[NQN]

Even without a Splash you can not loose. I played about 40 games against TES and lost about 5. You have 4 FoW 4 Daze 4 Spell Snare 4 Stifle 1 Trickbind 1 EE and the best card 3 Counterbalance. It´s near to a bye.

[Zach Tartell]

Even without a Splash you can not loose. I played about 40 games against TES and lost about 5. You have 4 FoW 4 Daze 4 Spell Snare 4 Stifle 1 Trickbind 1 EE and the best card 3 Counterbalance. It´s near to a bye.

I don't understand why your TES opponent wouldn't just balls to the wall for warrens tokens. Seems to me that you could only tutor for your single EE on turn 3 into the turn 4 blow, so I can't understand how like 8 tokens wouldn't seal the deal against you.

And now with Shusher (who, admittedly doesn't touch stifle effects) I can't imagine that you're 87.5% against TES anymore.

[Cait_Sith]

I would still estimate it at about 70% overall. While TES is digging for Shusher, you at least can pack on disruption until you drop a fast Dreadnought.

Since they cut Plunge a long time ago, the damage Dreadnought does is far less relevant, but a 2 turn clock with disruption backup is hot.

[MattH]

I would still estimate it at about 70% overall. While TES is digging for Shusher, you at least can pack on disruption until you drop a fast Dreadnought.

Since they cut Plunge a long time ago, the damage Dreadnought does is far less relevant, but a 2 turn clock with disruption backup is hot.

Yeah but they cut it for Infernal Contract...?

[Bane of the Living]

Change your member description to "I don't even read the cards I test".

I meant to say Deed not Grip, I got a little repeatitious mentioning it a bunch of times. For a nihilist you sure get your panties in a twist on the source alot.

[Rood]

I would still estimate it at about 70% overall. While TES is digging for Shusher, you at least can pack on disruption until you drop a fast Dreadnought.

Since they cut Plunge a long time ago, the damage Dreadnought does is far less relevant, but a 2 turn clock with disruption backup is hot.

This is about correct. I've also updated my board to give Dreadstill relevant answers to Vexing Shusher postboard in the form of dropping Chills for BEBs and I have not missed them. Also Pithing Needle handles him fairly well too.

[HammafistRoob]

Ubg Dreadstill by Rob Rogers

beaters-7
3 Goyf
4 Dreadnought

draw/cantrip-11
4 Brainstorm
3 Dark Confidant
4 Standstill

artifact/enchantment-5
3 Counterbalance
2 Top

counter-17
2 Trickbind
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will


land-20
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory


side-15
3 Annul
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Chill

Here is a ubg list I came up with and just wanted to post it in here.
some pros and cons of this build-

Pros-
*A huge number of creatures (14)
*The nice additions to the board that black gives you
*Way better vs. Gobbz
*Tons of draw power
*Quite strong in the mirror

Cons-
*No Trinket Mage tool box
*No Wastelands

What do you guys think? Is it worth taking out Trinket Mages and Wastelands for a 3 color build such as the above?

[uprite]

Hammafist your list above looks good, but the list seems to detract away from the plan of getting the dreadnaught on the table. However you replaced the trinket mage with stronger and more useful creatures making it like an threshold esque kind of deck with the dreadnaught combo. Also you lose E.E pithing and prehaps crypt main with this list, those things do come in handy at times and not to mention that sometimes against an aggro deck a stifle and a trinket mage is good enough to win the game if you have some counters.

Have you tested the list yet? It looks pretty good on paper but how is your manabase since your b/g sources are only from duals which can be wasted/ported.

I think wastelands are nice but losing them isnt a huge deal since my w/u list runs no wastelands instead i run 1 island,1 plains and 1 academy ruins.

I am looking forward you what you say about your testing with this list, it certainly looks like an fun/interesting version of dreadstill.

[Clark Kant]

Hamma, if you must play a three color version without any wastelands, cutting an island or two for Fairie Conclaves might be worth a consideration to make sure you can make use of standstill.

Nothing sucks worse than giving your opponents card advantage with your own standstill because you only run Factory and they run Factory (to neuter yours) and/or Wastelands.
Treetop Village is an option too.

[NQN]

With that list you won´t stand a chance against Dragonstompy and Dredge. High price just for the non-existen goblin matchup.

[Maagler]

With that list you won´t stand a chance against Dragonstompy and Dredge. High price just for the non-existen goblin matchup.

I agree, But I have been having some difficulties with the aggro match up. I am currently running the red splash variant and have been having recent success with pyroclasms in place of 2 spell snare.

any other thoughts on how to deal with the aggro matchup mainly goyf sleigh and goblins?

[J.V.]

I agree, But I have been having some difficulties with the aggro match up. I am currently running the red splash variant and have been having recent success with pyroclasms in place of 2 spell snare.

any other thoughts on how to deal with the aggro matchup mainly goyf sleigh and goblins?

Well goyf sligh really shouldn't be giving you problems, you can counter relevent stuff and preboard they CANNOT deal with Dreadnought. Post side Chill makes the match up near un-loseable. As for goblins counter relevent stuff and try to land a nought has become the "best" game plan but it is still 50/50 at best.

[Maagler]

Goyf sliegh has been giving me a problem with all the burn to finish me off. I have found that If I do not get the countertop combo it is hard for me to deal with all their threats.

[Rood]

Dazes ruin them, g1 Dreadnought is normally GG for them. Also Snares, and Standstills tend to really get there for you.

[The Atog Lord]

I recently took second at Gateway Comics with Dreadstill. I had been testing both Dreadstill and Threshold, and in the end decided that Dreadstill would be the better deck. It is very powerful and fully expect it to be in the Decks To Beat forum in the near future. Props to Rodney for helping me understand better how the deck works.

I went through the Swiss without dropping a game. I beat Goblins and two Survival decks. I then beat Rodney in a very close mirror match in Top Four, being 0-3 to him prior to that. Then Fae beat me quite easily.

I played this (from memory):

// 8 Creatures
2 Goyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Nought

// 2 Trinkets
1 Pithing Needle
1 Explosives

// 13 Counters / Removal
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Daze

//11 Draw
3 Tops
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

// 5 Counter Activated Abilities
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

// 21 Land
4 Mishra
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
6 Fetchland
4 Basic Island

// Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Goyf
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Explosives
1 Gaea's Blessing (Because I feared Painter)

[Jaynel]

Obviously the maindeck Krosan Grips were amazing because you played against Survival twice, but do they deserve the slot? Do you feel like it's more of a metagame call or should EVERY list be running them?

[Ch@os]

Krosan Grip MB is definitely a meta call.

Oblivion Ring serves more problems but its not your splashcolor.

[HammafistRoob]

Hammafist your list above looks good, but the list seems to detract away from the plan of getting the dreadnaught on the table. However you replaced the trinket mage with stronger and more useful creatures making it like an threshold esque kind of deck with the dreadnaught combo. Also you lose E.E pithing and prehaps crypt main with this list, those things do come in handy at times and not to mention that sometimes against an aggro deck a stifle and a trinket mage is good enough to win the game if you have some counters.

Have you tested the list yet? It looks pretty good on paper but how is your manabase since your b/g sources are only from duals which can be wasted/ported.

I think wastelands are nice but losing them isnt a huge deal since my w/u list runs no wastelands instead i run 1 island,1 plains and 1 academy ruins.

I am looking forward you what you say about your testing with this list, it certainly looks like an fun/interesting version of dreadstill.

I haven't tested it, I don't ever play magic unless I am in a tournament.



Hamma, if you must play a three color version without any wastelands, cutting an island or two for Fairie Conclaves might be worth a consideration to make sure you can make use of standstill.

Nothing sucks worse than giving your opponents card advantage with your own standstill because you only run Factory and they run Factory (to neuter yours) and/or Wastelands.
Treetop Village is an option too.

CIP tapped lands are awful in legacy, nevermind in Dreadstill. Conclave and Treetop would be so bad in this deck, bad synergy with everything except for Standstill maybe.

[The Atog Lord]

The Grips were certainly a metagame call. Spell Snare would be better for a more general metagame, I think.

[Rood]

Obviously the maindeck Krosan Grips were amazing because you played against Survival twice, but do they deserve the slot? Do you feel like it's more of a metagame call or should EVERY list be running them?

Krosan Grips mainboard in our meta are pretty good. I think the main intension of it was to win the mirror. Just an added bonus is he faced Survival twice.

[HammafistRoob]

Krosan Grips mainboard in our meta are pretty good. I think the main intension of it was to win the mirror. Just an added bonus is he faced Survival twice.

Krosan Grip isn't really that great vs. Survival, I think Spell Snare would do a better job at dealing with Survival. Rich noticed that there was 4 Dreadstill decks at the last Wareham tourney(2 Top8'd) and wanted to win the mirror(which he did).

[Rood]

Has anyone else not been liking needle in the main lately? I barely have searched for it my last tournament it just was not very helpful in the main.

[NQN]

Needle was the first card I cutted down to 1 in the sideboard. I rather like Crypt cause it´s good against Survival and Landstill too and gives you a really good Ichorid matchup.

[MTL10]

oh i love needle in the main... it's just soooo versitile. i out right won a game against 3 color standstill simple because on turn 2 (on the play) i played a needle, he fetched with his flooded stand, which i stifled, then i named polluted delta with my needle... so much fun when he layed 2 deltas in a row the next 2 turns haha. keeping the number of needles down to 1 in the main is a good idea though, because not EVERY deck has good things to name with needle. but keep in mind, if you ever draw you needle, and don't have anything really good in mind to name it's always easy to name your opponents fetchlands.

[J.V.]

oh i love needle in the main... it's just soooo versitile. i out right won a game against 3 color standstill simple because on turn 2 (on the play) i played a needle, he fetched with his flooded stand, which i stifled, then i named polluted delta with my needle... so much fun when he layed 2 deltas in a row the next 2 turns haha. keeping the number of needles down to 1 in the main is a good idea though, because not EVERY deck has good things to name with needle. but keep in mind, if you ever draw you needle, and don't have anything really good in mind to name it's always easy to name your opponents fetchlands.
Yeah I too like the needle, not so much for needling fetches though, my most common targets are: E.E., Pernicious Deed, Survival Of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, etc etc

[Rood]

So anyways the deck got bumped into the DTB forum due to all the success it's been having which is awesome...oh I have been running 2x EEs main over the Needle in the main it's seeming to work out for me nicely I really like having two.

[J.V.]

Dreadstill grabbed 1-4th Split, 9th, and 10th at the 34 player Pawtucket $500 tournament today. My 9th place list/report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234622#post234622).

[The Atog Lord]

Here's the list I used to Top Four at Die Hard Games.
It was great all day. The combination of Goyf and Red sweeping damage let me power right past hate, such as agaisnt Feinstein Elves.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
1 Trickbind
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slice and Dice
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Firespout


The Cryptic Command wasn't great, but I wanted another way to handle threats in the main deck. I think that it is worth further testing, but it didn't do much in the day. Otherwise, however, I was very happy with the deck, and thrilled with the sideboard.

[NQN]

Ancient Grudge Maindeck looks like a really really crazy meta...Could you explain it? I don´t like those lists with Goyf in the Maindeck and so many nonbasics tough because Back to Basics is such a hoser against so many decks and I just want the coinflip against Dragonstompy which I loose if I play such a "bad" manabase. But if it worked for you, it´s great ;) Congratz!

[Willoe]

Isn't five stifle-effects a little low? I'd add one more Trickbind. I'd like to second what NQN said about that Grudge :rolleyes: What a weird card choice :P

If you really want that Grudge maindeck, wouldn't just 1 be better? +1 Trickbind, -1 Ancient Grudge IMO.

[Rood]

Our meta has been almost entirely aggro lately I really like some of Rich's choices like Firesprouts/Goyfs. I was very close to grabbing a T8 spot myself but my lack of removal in the board prevented me from getting there. Grudges are obviously amazing vs Stax and Dreadstill mirror which is what Rich was expecting to face and he did.

[thefreakaccident]

If you guys are really worried about the dreadstill mirror, you could still run a mono-blue list, as you can run repeal (good tempo card, never dead, costs only two if you wish and cantrips)... you could also run threads of disloyalty which also happens to be good against the format's most common critter (goyf), and it happens to get around CB for the most part, which is an obvious plus.

[Rood]

you can run repeal

I think I really like this idea too, it's helpful against almost everything.

[helldragon96]

This is the deck I would like to build. I have about 250 dollars, maybe a bit more. I'm not a net decker. I prefer to go out and buy play sets (meaning max of that card that would be played in the deck) of all the cards in a deck then build it up from scratch. Are there any cards that aren't in these lists that might be played in the deck?

[kicks_422]

Well, there are a lot of splash colors to choose from. Start with the core cards of course (Dreadnought, Stifle, Standstill, FoW, etc.) then make a decision on what splash color you prefer after testing a bit.

[helldragon96]

Thats what i was planning on doing. What cards would be splashed from red? What splash color do you think would be best?

[J.V.]

Thats what i was planning on doing. What cards would be splashed from red? What splash color do you think would be best?

Red really only brings the following cards to the table:
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Pyroclasm
Firespout

Its kind of a meta/preference thing I personally play Green Splash for Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip, but Red Splash is very good in either heavy Blue or heavy goblin metas and White Splash is really good in unknown metas since Oblivion Ring is just insane and it flips as a 3cc for CB.

On another note black has been well, underwhelming. As appealing as Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, Extirpate, and Engineered Plague were they just weren't getting the job done.

[TrialByFire]

I actually believe red or white splash is are the best. REB/Pyro are nuts in the meta right now, and pyroclasm handles all the random aggro matchups. And worse comes to worse, just make a fucking 12/12. Thats the best part about the deck. Dreadnought solves so many problems.

[helldragon96]

I'd like to play white splash I think. Mainly cause i have no idea what my meta game will be like. Wheres another list for white splash?

[J.V.]

This is the White Splash list we currently use:
Lands:20
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
5 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Creatures:7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Noncreature Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Side-15
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chill
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
2 Blue Elemental Blast