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greenmage
03-22-2008, 02:10 PM
History:

About one and a half years ago I started out legacy. I was playing a mono green deck with cards like greater good, pattern of rebirth and deranged hermit, but constantly lost. People were telling me to copy a deck.
But one day, I had an idea. What if I were to cut the matrix and splash black for cards like nantuko husk? That should work well with the patterns. Next time I went to the shop I looked for fatties that might fit. One fattie immediately caught my attention, ignoring people that showed me symbiotic wurm. The card was protean hulk.
Soon enough the tide turned, and this new deck seemed to function much better than the old one. Other cards came to my attention: natural order and phyrexian ghoul. And thus the core of this deck was born.
My next discovery was that academy rector was capable of fetching patterns, and that through this pattern I could get another hulk. And if I chained enough cards I could bring a lot of bear tokens with caller of the claw, enough that I could attack for deadly next turn.
The time afterwards was spent with tweaking the deck, and getting cards like original duals and fetchland to smoothen the mana base. Placing better and better at weekly tournaments.
Until hulk/flash came along. The first time I got news of the kiki/karmic guide kill that deck used it struck me. I only needed to include these two cards to kill instantly. Suddenly I was a constant contender for the top spot, if I didn't get paired too much against U control decks. Savannah's entered the deck.
The time reveillark was leaked I knew immediately that I could abuse it somehow. The card was too obvious synergistic to ignore. After lots of deliberations I came up with a kill (yes it was me over at mtgsalvation who invented it first, I swear). A kill that would be fairly resistant against removal and that doesn't need the attack phase.
And that is pretty much were I stand now.


Decklist:

Mana Creatures(12)
4 birds of paradise
2 elves of deep shadow
3 llanowar elves
3 wall of roots

Sac' Creatures(8)
2 carrion feeder
3 nantuko husk
3 phyrexian ghoul

Combo Packet(6)
1 bile urchin
1 karmic guide
1 body snatcher
1 reveillark
2 protean hulk

"Tutors"(9)
4 pattern of rebirth
4 natural order
1 academy rector

Removal(3)
3 pernicious deed

secondary win condition(1)
1 Simic sky swallower

Lands(21)
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
2 ancient tomb
2 gaea's cradle
1 phyrexian tower
4 bayou
2 savannah
4 forest

Sideboard(15)
4 leyline of the void
4 extirpate
2 eyes of the wisent
4 hidden gibbons
1 pernicious deed

You may view it here too, there is a sample hand generator that should help to get an impression of the draws:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12809


Results:

Place four at the Austrian Legacy Championships

Place 14 at the legacy sideevent of GP vienna (5:2), barely missing top 8.

That may not seem very impressive at first glance, but these were the only "bigger" events I attended too (and I was the only one piloting this deck as well).

At my local meta I made about 10 times first place in tournaments that lastet 4-5 rounds, and still placed well when I didn't (except when experimenting :wink: ).


Strategy:

This deck can be best described as a combo-midrange hybrid.

Kill mechanism: cast a pattern/natural order on a creature while you have a sac' engine in play. Seek a protean hulk. Sac' the protean hulk. Seek a karmic guide and a carrion feeder. Return protean hulk into play through karmic guide's trigger. Sac' the hulk. Seek reveillark and bile urchin. Sac' the urchin to let your opponent lose one life. Sac' the guide. Sac' the reveillark and return the guide and the urchin back to play. Use the guide to return reveillark. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Alternatively the thing can be kickstarted by hardcasting protean hulk, body snatcher with protean hulk in hand, or with academy rector>pattern.

Goldfishing turn: usually turn 3, sometimes turn 4

Consistency: extreme
I could even increase the number of combo pieces if I wanted, but I chose not to do so because it would hurt my curve.

What to do when comboing is prohibited?
When comboing is prohibited the plan is usually to fetch a simic sky swallower and deliver some beats, attack with some bloated nantuko husk (which can be nicely pumped if you have a pattern in play) or simply fetch a deed and destroy whatever hinders you.


Card choices

birds of paradise:
Makes every kind of mana and also serves as natural order/pattern target or husk fodder (like all the other mana critters).

elves of deep shadow:
Is an additional black mana source, which is sometimes needed. On the flipside he burns you and can't produce G. I found 2 to be the best number. Also fodder.

llanowar elves:
I have found 9 to be the best number of one-drop excelleration. Llanowar elves were the best way to fill the remaining slots.

wall of roots:
Excellent against anything playing red. This thing sticks, and is a safer target for pattern if your opponent plays bolts than a llanowar elves. The other use for it is as a blocker against mongooses, lackeys, whatever. Only 3 because it's slower and I don't need multiples.

carrion feeder:
Obviously serves as repeatable sac' engine.
But why only two? After all he's much cheaper than nantuko husk, right?
There's a big downside to him: he sucks in combat. He can't even block and most of the time he's a meager 1/1 dork! The tempo increase he grants is also pretty minimal. Therefore husk/phyrexian ghoul are actually better cards than him, because they are awesome combat tools.
Two is a good number to run of him because of this scenario:
I play natural order, seek hulk. I play my only feeder. I sac' hulk, my opponent bolts feeder in response...

nantuko husk & phyrexian ghoul:
Repeatable sac' engines, dangerous beatsticks. My deck runs 28! creatures, so they almost always have fodder. These critters can even stand up to an aktive jitte for a few turns, and that's usually all that I need.

bile urchin:
Why this and not mogg fanatic?
Because I can hardcast it!

karmic guide:
Why this and not body double?
Same as above.

body snatcher:
Main purpose is to be able to still go off smoothly if I draw a reveillark or karmic guide. Just fetch this instead of the creature you'd normally fetch, discard that creature and then use the second ability to bring it into play.
Secondary purpose: Well, if I have a simic sky swallower in hand it is nice to cheat it into play.
Third purpose: I found an additional "fetch from GY" effect very useful when karmic guide was taken through a certain black goblin.

reveillark:
Combo toy. I never used the evoke effect, but its stats, manacost and ability can be very useful aside from the normal combo.

protean hulk:
Combo toy and nice beatdown critter. I won lots of games through plain hulk beatdown. Not advicable if your opponent plays stp though.

pattern of rebirth:
Aside from seeking a creature of choice it can also be used as defense line.
Careful, there's a danger to be 2 for 1ed with this card.

natural order:
It is more restrictive than pattern, but also less vulnerable to removal or stifles. Careful against opponents playing counterspells.

academy rector:
Serves mostly as a pattern or deed seeker. If you board leylines or eyes he can also be used for that.

pernicious deed:
The only removal in this deck can serve as surgeon knife or to blast the board. The obvious synergy with pattern is most of the time irrelevant.

simic sky swallower:
He's green, has shroud, has flying and impressive stats. That makes him perfectly against decks where you'd rather not use the obvious winning route.

ancient tomb:
This deck is mana hungry and tomb helps there. But I don't want multiples because it's colourless mana and painful. Therefore 2.

forest:
Having basics is a good idea when opponents play non basic hate. Birds and the like can still provide the other colours.

gaea's cradle:
I play lots of creatures, and cradle helps when planning things like hardcasting protean hulk.
Drawback: legendary

phyrexian tower:
This land is an awesome fit. It sac's creatures and makes mana out of it. But it is legendary as well and produces colourless mana.


Matchups

Unfavorable

UGR threshold without counterbalance:
This is really tough. The first problem is that he attacks my critter base which is also an attack against my mana. Second problem are his counterspells and stifles. Even with boarding I usually can't turn the match. I'm currently desperatly seeking answers.

UGW threshold without counterbalance:
The problems here are similar, but at least he leaves more of my critters in peace. Meddling mage is very hurtful though. It's possible to turn the match with gibbons and the like, but not easy.

Belcher:
He's faster than me and I don't run maindeck disruption. A solution in belcher heavy metas would be to pack sideboard duress and chalice of the void.

U/W Landstill:
Oh, so tough. This deck seems almost designed to beat me. Still more favourable than UGR thresh though since gibbons are really good here.

Cephalid breakfast:
Ugh. A combo deck that kills faster than me with counter-backup.

Slightly unfavorable:

TES:
Faster than me. But can become favorable with SB duress & chalice.

UGR thresh with counterbalance:
The more counterbalance is played, the more favorable the matchup. Patterns/Order are hard to counter with counterbalance. It's still important to have some critters stick.

Even:

UGW thresh with counterbalance:
Meddling mage and stp is still a problem but with some trixy counterbating and deeding it is quite possible to win this match.

UGB thresh without counterbalance:
His removal is inefficient. That's a problem because as soon as I collect tons of mana I can make all kinds of stupid stuff. Confident should better be removed early though.

Aluren:
It really depends on his draw. If he has hand disruption+fast combo it's not too good. If he doesn't you can often race.
Sometimes it's even a good plan to collect mana for a deed for four.
And if aluren is heavily played a SB ronom unicorn is a wonderful thing.

GBW pikula:
Sure he has discard, but that doesn't hurt very much. What hurts more are the stps to counteract the patterns. On my side there are the deeds to reset the board if necessary. This is a tough battle to fight for both parties, and simic sky swallower is excellent here.

Slightly favorable:
UGB thresh with counterbalance:
Less efficient counterspells mean better chances fo me.

Enchantress:
He has ground seals and solitary confinement, but I have deeds. It's sort of a hick-hack who has the better hate. But as chain hulk can attack as well as comboing, which enchantress can't do, the matchup is on the favourable side.

Favorable:

UG threshold
He can't attack my mana base, and he can't have counters for everything. One deed, pattern or natural order will resolve, and then it's downhill.

UG madness
Similar to UG thresh, but even more favourable. The beatdown madness puts on the table is usually not enough. The counterdensity too thin. You stall a little, then you combo.

Goblins
R/B version will use earwig squad to remove the combo, but that's still no game loss. It's usually not too hard to fetch a deed and lay a fattie on the table. Sure, I usually go down to 6 or so before that happens but then he's put into defense and that's not a role goblins are good at.
R/W version will use stp's, which actually hurt more than the squad. It depends on board position and hand if you first seek a deed or try to go off.

Angel-Stax
Here you try to race to a pattern or natural order. Everytime you can drop a mana critter you should do it. Consider your non-basics one shots. Deeds are very useful here.
If he drops a chalice on the play that's bad. Magus of the tabernacle is the other card to be weary off.

Mono red burn:
The burn player is faced with a precarious situation. If he doesn't shoot the mana creatures he is dead. If he does his clock suffers. When you are aware of possible flamebreaks and price of progress you should usually win this match.

Dredge:
The sac' engines can take away his bridges, the deeds his tokens. And there's also 8 cards SB hate.

IGGY pop:
Combine a decent clock with 8 hate cards and it is pretty easy to win game 2 and 3.

Very favourable

Dragon-Stompy
Like with stax, a single pattern means usually GG for the opponent. Fetch basics and use your mana critters for the other colours. Use deed as emergency tool.

Affinity
My clock is as fast as Affinity, but I can also slow him through blocking. Add to this the 3 MD deeds and you can expect a slaughter.

MBA
His clock isn't the fastest. Sure he'll destroy your hand, but the deck has amazing topdecks. Stalling a little and then comboing or fetching Simic sky swallower is enough.

GoyfSligh
He runs less burn than mono red burn. His clock isn't really scary and there are always the blockers.

Please tell me if I forgot some matchup here.:wink:

Media314r8
03-22-2008, 02:30 PM
I cannot see how this is by any means the "most consistent combo deck in the format," as you are playing no cantrips, no sensei's diving top, no tutors, and no protection. Off the top of my head, more consistent combo decks in legacy:

near-manaless ichorid
TES
Iggy pop/Grim Iggy
MossNaught (from CaNGD III)
Cephalid Breakfast
Alluren
Solidarity

decks with approx the same consistency that kill turn 1-3 regularly:
Spanish Inquisition
Belcher

I don't want to bash you deck, but you need to have two (or three if you have pattern) cards in hand to 'combo' off, and your combo takes up nearly half of your deck:

23 Combo pieces:

Sac' Creatures(8)
2 carrion feeder
3 nantuko husk
3 phyrexian ghoul

Combo Packet(6)
1 bile urchin
1 karmic guide
1 body snatcher
1 reveillark
2 protean hulk

"Tutors"(9)
4 pattern of rebirth
4 natural order
1 academy rector

You cannot protect them, and you have no way of comboing if your urchin/guide/rev is in hand, so you fall back on the 'turn 3-4 SSS might get there' plan.

Take a look at Alluren, and DEFIANTLY look at the MossNaught build, and try to work some kind of protection into your deck, as you currently lose to:

counterspells (including daze)
hand disruption
graveyard hate
instant speed removal
decks that can kill you by turn 3/4

Seems awkward. Again, not trying to bash, but I strongly recommend that you run less redundant combo pieces, and more ways to filter your deck or protect your combo. hand disruption, Xantid swarms, or splashing blue for brainstorm, force, ponder, ect would be places to start. Good luck.

Media314r8
03-22-2008, 02:48 PM
Perhaps you said it better than I:



Cephalid breakfast:
Ugh. A combo deck that kills faster than me with counter-backup.


So why your deck? The rogue factor? Budget? Please explain.

Mental
03-22-2008, 02:52 PM
Perhaps you said it better than I:



So why your deck? The rogue factor? Budget? Please explain.

I think the strength that this deck has over Breakfast is pure redundancy. It has about 8 enablers for each part of the combo, which means that it takes a lot of disruption to shut it down. In the right meta, that seems like it could be strong. Also, remember that WGDX worked like that in vintage in the past. It did have some disruption, but in general it was just 7 of each combo piece. I think that's the logic behind this deck.

greenmage
03-22-2008, 03:25 PM
I know that this deck doesn't look like much on paper, but it has proven itself in competitive environment. People at my meta also have lots of positive things to say, and I don't think they are complete morons.

So, as for the constructive critiques:

I cannot see how this is by any means the "most consistent combo deck in the format," as you are playing no cantrips, no sensei's diving top, no tutors, and no protection. Off the top of my head, more consistent combo decks in legacy:
I have run living wish in a predecessor version, but it was inefficient and a waste of mana. Simply running more combo pieces has proven to be better.
As for defense:
My defense is that I can try to go off 3 times a game. If I'm once disrupted it doesn't matter.
A duress will also only take one disruption spell away. Having a pattern countered is almost the same effect.
OK, maybe the part with the "most consistant combo deck" was exaggerating. :wink: -but it is still very consistant.

You cannot protect them, and you have no way of comboing if your urchin/guide/rev is in hand, so you fall back on the 'turn 3-4 SSS might get there' plan.
Havin lark and guide at the same time is fortunately very rare. I don't think that rare possibility is worth an extra slot for snatcher no 2.
Having urchin in hand is not a problem, since it is a one mana spell. I can easily cast it.

counterspells (including daze)-those are bad, yes
hand disruption-no, only slows me down
graveyard hate-depends on the type, but even if I'm extirpated there's still lots left I can do
instant speed removal-not as much as you might think (I usually combo-kill mono red burn)
decks that can kill you by turn 3/4-the trick is to have a big board. He'll board some hate too. The difference: there are many alternative options I have, while the straight combo deck doesn't.
You seem to focus overly much on the combo kill. ~40% of the games I win are through non-combo means.

I think the strength that this deck has over Breakfast is pure redundancy. It has about 8 enablers for each part of the combo, which means that it takes a lot of disruption to shut it down. In the right meta, that seems like it could be strong. Also, remember that WGDX worked like that in vintage in the past. It did have some disruption, but in general it was just 7 of each combo piece. I think that's the logic behind this deck.
Exactly.

TheKingslayer
03-22-2008, 03:37 PM
I used to run a deck somewhat like this. It used a pattern of rebirth on a birds and then saced to find a symbiotic wurm to swing with a 20/20. You could throw in one of those, but It doesn't seem as if it would be very consistant without any hand disruption or counterspells. ONe counterspell slows you down so much.

fetchesbasiclands
03-22-2008, 03:51 PM
I've always liked Pattern/Rector decks with some silver bullets and a fast clock.I would recommend Cabal Therapy and maybe Eternal Witness.Therapy is just insane with that theme.And you could probably do some nasty things with Witness too.I'm not sure if you have already tested those,just suggestions.

thefreakaccident
03-22-2008, 03:55 PM
You could look into reanimator (UB), it is no where near the same idea, but the philosophy of the deck is the same (simplicity and redundancy will eventually wear you down!)... we have a guy that goes to my locals and wins ~90% of the time he plays with it, the other 10% is when he is fiddling with the deck or got 2nd-3rd.

Hell, I run 8 countermagic, 4 swords, 2 humility, and CWish into anything I want and he still beats me most of the time (mainly cuz he is a luck sack though).

Tacosnape
03-22-2008, 04:21 PM
So a combo deck with no disruption and no draw is playable in Legacy/favored against UG Threshold why, exactly?

TheKingslayer
03-22-2008, 05:15 PM
I have a problem with that too. Goldfishing consistantly isn't the same as winning consistantly against most meta decks.

idraleo
03-22-2008, 08:43 PM
So a combo deck with no disruption and no draw is playable in Legacy/favored against UG Threshold why, exactly?


I think that's right. I post my List, we have talk on it before but i presume that is most viable because it plays protection and tutors on maindeck. I don't want to say that is better than Pattern-oriented decklist, but it doen't lose by a single Force of Will and\or Hymn to Tourach.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Protean Hulk
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [UD] Body Snatcher
2 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [BOK] Bile Urchin
1 [PLC] Body Double
1 [MOR] Merrow Witsniper
1 [MOR] Reveillark

// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TE] Intuition
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [10E] Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [UL] Raven Familiar
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude

Jaiminho
03-22-2008, 09:17 PM
The thing people don't see is that disruption never comes alone. I wanna see this deck survive something like discards + shade/goyf or counters on your 9 patterns + goyf (or even StP) and that kind of thing. If the player on the other side of the table decides to not let you have a clock, they may, while you can't do much about it, unless to keep trying and topdeck the win until you are dead.

I seriously can't see Iggy (Fetchland Tendrils, actually) being a favourable match up. The deck can play over any amount of graveyard hate it wants: bounce and Serenity for Leyline, Chant for Extirpate, double Tendrils for both. If you don't back it up with something else, they will get rid of your haters and kill you, since you can't win until turn 3.

Did you actually test every match up you wrote (1 line) about?


Anyways, I can see this deck working well with a version such as idraleo's.

greenmage
03-23-2008, 06:22 AM
Mod: Could you please tell me why my deck was moved to the new and developmental section?
It is neither new nor developmental, and has certainly seen more tournament play than UGW Geddon Equilibrium or Mossnought.
On what based did you move it? On the comments? On the fact that my list is ugly?

OK, that's it. You'll never see me post here again. I needed three hours to write the damn thing.
I'm sick with people distrusting everything I say because the deck doesn't meet the narrow preconceptions you have about a deck.>Sorry to everyone who tried to be constructive.


The thing people don't see is that disruption never comes alone. I wanna see this deck survive something like discards + shade/goyf or counters on your 9 patterns + goyf (or even StP) and that kind of thing. If the player on the other side of the table decides to not let you have a clock, they may, while you can't do much about it, unless to keep trying and topdeck the win until you are dead.
I played against MBA at the sideevent of GP vienna. Twice. I went 4:0.
I played countless matches against MBA in my local area, and trust me when I say that it is pretty lopsided.
I played quite a few games against BWG pikula or doran decks and was capable of winning about 50% of the games.

I seriously can't see Iggy (Fetchland Tendrils, actually) being a favourable match up. The deck can play over any amount of graveyard hate it wants: bounce and Serenity for Leyline, Chant for Extirpate, double Tendrils for both. If you don't back it up with something else, they will get rid of your haters and kill you, since you can't win until turn 3.

Did you actually test every match up you wrote (1 line) about?
He's slowed down much. Sure, if he has the top draw and I only have leyline I die. But if not I might even get to replay the leyline if it is bounced.
My data in this matchup comes mostly from a time were I run leyline besides chalice in the board. Extirpate is a recent addition, but I'm pretty certain it is about as efficient as chalice.

I think that's right. I post my List, we have talk on it before but i presume that is most viable because it plays protection and tutors on maindeck. I don't want to say that is better than Pattern-oriented decklist, but it doen't lose by a single Force of Will and\or Hymn to Tourach.
This is a three card combo...and therefore sux.

emidln
03-23-2008, 12:57 PM
He's slowed down much. Sure, if he has the top draw and I only have leyline I die. But if not I might even get to replay the leyline if it is bounced.
My data in this matchup comes mostly from a time were I run leyline besides chalice in the board. Extirpate is a recent addition, but I'm pretty certain it is about as efficient as chalice.

You obviously haven't played against the new iggy-style lists. You're not going to be facing a combo deck, you're going up against the fastest control deck in the format. The way Iggy gets to board is +Extirpate +Abeyance +Serenity. If you don't get Leyline in your opener you've lost the game before it starts. If you do, you now have to figure out how to deal a deck 20 that has roughly 7 copies of Extirpate and a ton of draw to find them while fending off serenity + chant = gg. I haven't ran into this deck in the wild yet, but from every other matchup I've tested, I suspect that I could kill you with Street Wraith attacking and chant/abeyance Time Walking given that you lack any significant disruption, let alone a real win condition like Tendrils or ETW.

Even against the hopelessly out of date Iggy lists with 4x IGG and 4x Leyline maindeck, you just lose when they play Leyline. Even these lists have Chants and Xantid Swarm in the sideboard with a "slow" FT of about 2.5. The only explanation I came come up with for your results in this matchup is a lack of testing against an experienced player.

As to your analysis of the UG Thresh matchup, why exactly can't they stifle your fetches, waste your duals, and counter roughly the first 3-4 cards you play while killing you with Goyf and Mongoose? How do you deal with the fact that Daze is the best counterspell ever against you? Your relevant cards cost 4 mana and you have no search or card draw to find copies. I suspect they could save all of their counters for these and kill you with Goyfs and Werebears. They even get effective counters for Pattern of Rebirth in their maindeck bounce spells. This matchup seems nightmare-ish for you.

Tacosnape
03-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Could you please tell me why my deck was moved to the new and developmental section?
It is neither new nor developmental, and has certainly seen more tournament play than UGW Geddon Equilibrium or Mossnought.

Combo decks that run absolutely no disruption/protection whatsoever better win or semi go-off on turn one a large portion of the time like Belcher, and if you haven't noticed, even Belcher has serious problems with a well-placed Force of Will or Thoughtseize. You either have to have disruption/protection, blazing speed, or a happy medium between the two to have a viable combo deck in Legacy. This has none.

idraleo
03-26-2008, 02:02 PM
I agree. Show and Tell is cool because you could drop your 6/6 on turn 3 or 2 and start beating, expecially post side to avoid Leyline, Tormod and Extirpate. Living wish is cool too because all combo pieces are lands and creatures, so you can survive to a single Extirpate. This deck probably should run Extirpates on side too, in fact playing a lot of discard spells enable an high probability to did a good Extirpate on StP.