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B.C.
03-23-2008, 12:11 PM
This post has been modified into an updated primer due to the recent increased popularity and success of this deck. First, let me acknowledge that the original concept for this deck came from Vroman, who developed it as an exceedingly entertaining casual deck. The basic concept was to play a bunch of hand disruption/creature kill guys with comes-into-play abilities. These creatures could then be bounced back to hand with ninjas and replayed. Ultimately, Balthor will come into play and overwhelm your opponent by returning all your dudes from the yard, nuking their hand and their board, then swing for the win. This is a control deck, not an aggro deck, despite packing a large number of creatures. There is no draw engine to speak of, but the deck creates what I like to call "virtual card advantage" by fully utilizing creature cards in the graveyard.

The Rat Pack

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana300/BalthorDefiled.jpg


Current list:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Swarmyard
17 Swamp

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [JU] Balthor the Defiled
4 [BOK] Skullsnatcher
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
3 [VI] Crypt Rats
3 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
2 [EVE] Creakwood Liege
4 Ravenous Rats

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

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[I]Card explanations:
The deck mostly consists of 3- and 4-ofs with a few exceptions. The cards that are 1- or 2-ofs fill a redundant roll (e.g. Recurring Nightmare and SoLS are the 5th and 6th graveyard recursion cards after the 4-of Balthor). Therefore having these 1- and 2-of cards makes sense even though the deck has no tutors or draw engine.

[U]Mana Base:
Basic Swamps + Swarmyard - 20 lands total seems to be the consensus, although people have played with less. This deck does not run Wastelands because a lot of black mana is essential especially for Balthor and Crypt Rats. Swarmyard is a very strong card that combos with Crypt Rats and can give you an infinite Tarmogoyf blocker, etc.

Discard Spells:
Thoughtseize is my spell of choice, although Cabal Therapy is also commonly played. Thougtseize is a stronger turn 1 play. Cabal Therapy can be flashed back easily and has the potential to hit many cards. It’s a personal preference.

Hand Disruption Creatures:
Ravenous Rats and Chittering Rats - Neither is particularly strong on its own, but when combined with the rest of this deck they become quite threatening.

Graveyard Recursion:
Balthor – Obviously broken. He is the inspiration for the deck and the main graveyard recursion engine. I will always play 4, although some people have dropped to 3.
Recurring Nightmare - Extremely strong card, as it can recur Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder every turn, or even create a hard lock with Chittering Rats (Rats + 6 mana or 2 Rats + 3 mana = Chittering Rat every turn).
Sword of Light and Shadow - Brings creatures back to your hand as well as creating combat advantage. Has great synergy with Crypt Rats since it can bring back dudes you may have lost to Crypt Rat damage, and it also gains you some life back. Basically makes Crypt Rats one-sided.

Creature Removal:
Shriekmaw - Targeted removal that can be recurred with Balthor or Nightmare.
Fleshbag Marauder - Can hit untargetable creatures or pro-black creatures or whatever and can also be recurred.
Crypt Rats - Great mass removal, and is a combo with Swarmyard. Crypt Rats can also be used for direct damage or to force game draws out of unwinnable situations.

Graveyard Disruption:
Skullsnatcher - Gets red and black creatures out of the opponent’s graveyard, and also Ninjas CIP creatures back to your hand.

Other:
Jitte - The best combat card ever printed.
Creakwood Liege - A great token generator. Bitterblossom has also seen some play, but it can be destroyed with EE for 2, and the damage from BB can make a big difference sometimes.
Aether Vial: Absolutely essential to this deck, especially when only running 20 mana sources. No discussion necessary.


Previous Inclusions:
Bone Shredder – Does essentially the same thing as Shriekmaw but for 1 more mana. Was a little bit overkill, and was cut for non-targeted removal.
Throat Slitter – Another removal guy. He was good because he was another way to Ninja guys back to your hand. He could also kill artifact creatures. Ended up being very clunky at its mana cost, and was worse than useless in some situations. Fleshbag Marauder has pretty much replaced him at this point.
Street Wraith – Still a potentially awesome inclusion. He cycles for 0 mana, and can come back with a Balthor activation. 3/4 Swampwalker is pretty nuts against most decks.
Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox – Potentially good mana acceleration. Haven’t seen much play lately because powering out 3cc creatures on turn 1 isn’t that explosive of a play. Slow, steady mana base has proven to be sufficient.
Skull Collector – Another potential recursion engine and combo with Chittering Rats/Aether Vial. Much like Throat Slitter, however, he is worse than useless in some situations.
Stinkweed Imp – Good creature to keep the opponent from attacking. Doesn’t usually kill anything, though. Also dredges, which is kinda good.
Phyrexian Rager – Draws you a card when it CIP. Doesn’t do much.


Sideboard:
Innocent Blood/Darkblast – These are included primarily to stop turn 1 Goblin Lackey, which can be devastating. Still useful later in the game as well.
Engineered Plague – Goblins, Elves, Merfolk. Nuff said.
Pithing Needle – Versatile card, useful against many different decks for many different purposes.
Hymn to Tourach – This deck has a LOT of trouble against Tendrils combo. Hymn to Tourach is really the best chance there is to stay in the game, although even that is not usually enough.
Extirpate – More graveyard hate. Obviously useful against Ichorid or Loam decks, but also useful against Tendrils Combo, whereas Tormod’s Crypt is largely ignored by combo.

Other possible sideboard cards:
Tormod’s Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Offalsnout/Faerie Macabre – More graveyard hate.
Perish/Nature’s Ruin – Got a problem with green creatures? Here’s your answer.
Thorn of Amethyst/Chalice of the Void – Possible anti-combo cards.
Chains of Mephistopheles – Answer for Enchantress/blue decks.


Matchup Analysis:

Favorable Matchups-
Merfolk: Should be a very favorable matchup unless they have a very strong starting hand. Creature removal (particularly Crypt Rats) should keep them from getting too far. Balthor is completely 1-sided in this matchup too.

Threshold/Blue Tempo Decks: Most of the time you play more creature kill than they play creatures. Counterbalance is almost completely ignorable, since the majority of our creatures cost 3-5 mana.

Random Aggro: The amount of creature kill you have in addition to your equipment and recursion are very hard to keep up with. Enemy Jitte can pose a serious problem.

Landstill: Humility can obviously be a problem, and Elspeth can be tough. Preboard you have some dead cards, but you should have more than enough good stuff in your board to swap out all the creature kill. Crypt Rats and Pithing Needle should be enough to handle Mishra's Factories.

Goblins: First turn Lackey preboard is very hard to beat, but if you survive the early turns you should be able to turn it around. Multiple Ringleaders can provide too much card advantage to keep up with, but as long as they draw only one card a turn, it's quite easy to kill everything before it hurts you. Balthor can be a liability unless you also get a Skullsnatcher going.

Dragon Stompy: Similar to Goblins, except that they run way fewer creatures. Moon effects are worthless. Chalice and Trinisphere are ignorable. Should be an auto-win.

Elves: Crypt Rats is the nuts. Engineered Plague is a backbreaker too. They could always just go off in your face, though.


Even/Unfavorable Matchups:
Aggro Loam: This matchup is fairly even, but can be very tough. They have a lot of relevant mass removal such as Firespout, Devastating Dreams, Seismic Assault, Jund Charm, etc.

Lands: Recurring Factories, Tabernacle, Maze, B-Ring, etc. Can be really tough.

Tendrils Combo: Preboard half your deck is dead. Postboard you get some chance to actually interact. If you’re lucky you can make it tough for them, but for the most part you are going to get blown out.

Affinity: The creatures are too fast, too big and mostly immune to your removal.

Enchantress: The perfect opportunity to curl up and cry.

Ichorid: This one can also be pretty even, depending on how much hate you draw. Skullsnatcher can shine in this matchup. Crypt Rats are huge. Extirpate out of the board can be the MVP if you play it right. I would still call the matchup unfavorable, though.



Thanks to Marit for pretty much raising this deck from the dead by Top 4ing with it in the MTG Salvation tournament. Also thanks to Sisyphos for writing a pretty good matchup analysis that I pretty much just stole for this primer. Finally, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and to those that have taken this deck to tournaments and done well, especially Sisyphos and pcccp.

Any ideas/suggestions for this primer are greatly appreciated and thanks for reading.

URABAHN
03-23-2008, 03:25 PM
haven’t played a lot of matchups with this deck yet, but I think it can hang in there with most decks. It’s mono black, so of course it will have the usual problems associated with that (no artifact or enchantment removal, etc.). All I can say for sure right now is that it is really fun to play. I know it looks like an incredible pile of jank, but give it a try. You might like it.

What've you tested against so far? What decks do you think it'll hang with?

Pulp_Fiction
03-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Have these cards been tested out: Nezumi Shortfang and Nezumi Graverobber. They don't have synergy with Skull Collector but are still really good. Wouldn't 1-2 Ink-Eyes be a good plan or 1-2 Patron of the Nezumi just as some good late-game bombs? Patron of the Nezumi also lines the graveyard for Balthor. I also think Swarmyard would be a good 1-2 of land. It regenerates rats!

Willoe
03-23-2008, 04:39 PM
Nice deck to say the least. I have some questions, though:

Is this (no offense) meant to be a competitive deck?

Are many of the creatures of your deck good enough to fight the more efficent creatures of the format?

Does your deck disrupts enough to keep combo from winning?

Has your deck a way of fightning the well-known topdeck-syndrome?

Have you any matchup results for us to see?

Other than that, pretty nifty deck with some sneaky tricks. I love to see balthor the defiled being played! :D

xsockmonkeyx
03-23-2008, 04:49 PM
Street Wraith – Finally, a deck where this guy is good.

I refute (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7800) this statement.

How about Phyrexian Rager? I only suggest it because it's a pet card of mine, and this is one of the few chances I'll get to mention it.

Also, you run TONS of expendable creatures. You should consider Cabal Therapy just for the fact that it would probably be really effective. On that note, Jitte would be really good here too.

Running 6 Fetches in a Mono black deck = suck. Also consider the fact that you have the other lifeloss cards, in Street Wraith and Thoughtseize, which makes this worse. I would probably just pick a good number of swamps and go with it.

Nihil Credo
03-23-2008, 05:12 PM
For reference, this is an Extended deck that saw some success about a year ago (with a few updates).

// Lands
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
12 [UNH] Swamp
4 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Nether Traitor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [8E] Ravenous Rats

4 [DS] Chittering Rats
4 [AP] Phyrexian Rager
2 [SOK] Skull Collector

2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PR] Duress
SB: 2 [MR] Sun Droplet
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

B.C.
03-23-2008, 05:42 PM
What've you tested against so far? What decks do you think it'll hang with?
So far I've tested in solo mode (me playing both sides) against Goblins, UGB Threshold, and SI. On MWS I played against a Loam deck, Treefolk, some White Weenie type deck, and a couple others. I would say this deck hung with all of them. It has the worst time with Tendrils Combo, especially since all the creature kill cards are dead. Chalice and Leyline will help.


Have these cards been tested out: Nezumi Shortfang and Nezumi Graverobber. They don't have synergy with Skull Collector but are still really good. Wouldn't 1-2 Ink-Eyes be a good plan or 1-2 Patron of the Nezumi just as some good late-game bombs? Patron of the Nezumi also lines the graveyard for Balthor. I also think Swarmyard would be a good 1-2 of land. It regenerates rats!
I haven't really tried any of those yet, but I don't see any reason they shouldn't be tested. Swarmyard is interesting, but I'm hesitant about it because it doesn't tap for black. Plus, you shouldn't really care about your rats getting killed. You run infinity of them.


Is this (no offense) meant to be a competitive deck?
I mean... sort of. I think it's good enough to take to a small local tournament or something just to have some fun, but I'm not going to play it at Gencon or anything.


Are many of the creatures of your deck good enough to fight the more efficent creatures of the format?
I think so. Bone Shredder, Shriekmaw, and a ninja'd Throat Slitter can all kill Tarmogoyfs or any other non-black non-artifact creatures. The rest of your dudes can trade combat damage or chump block waiting for Balthor.


Does your deck disrupts enough to keep combo from winning?
Not really. At least not pre-board. Although depending on how fast the combo is, you may be able to cripple their hand long enough to win.


Has your deck a way of fightning the well-known topdeck-syndrome?
Not 100% sure of what you're asking, but I will say that I rarely run out of cards in my hand. Ninjas refill your hand enough that you should usually have something to play every turn.


Have you any matchup results for us to see?
I've been smashing people on MWS, but not a lot of tier decks. Mostly homebrew.


I refute (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7800) this statement.
QFT. I am aware of emidln's successful assimilation of the Wraith. Thank god, too. I think he was starting to feel like a letdown.


How about Phyrexian Rager? I only suggest it because it's a pet card of mine, and this is one of the few chances I'll get to mention it.
Sweet tech. Consider it tested.


Also, you run TONS of expendable creatures. You should consider Cabal Therapy just for the fact that it would probably be really effective. On that note, Jitte would be really good here too.
I can't argue with that. Just haven't found room yet.


Running 6 Fetches in a Mono black deck = suck. Also consider the fact that you have the other lifeloss cards, in Street Wraith and Thoughtseize, which makes this worse. I would probably just pick a good number of swamps and go with it.
That's some good advice. Switching to mono Swamps.

Cavius The Great
03-23-2008, 06:42 PM
That's some good advice. Switching to mono Swamps.

I wouldn't necessarily do all swamps, I'd maybe throw in a playset of Wasteland in there and maybe a couple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if you're concerned with balthor activations. Urborg, Tomb of yawmoth is also pretty nice with Street Wraith.

idraleo
03-23-2008, 07:12 PM
Chittering Rats + skull collector + aether vial anyone? There was a Standard deck that gives a good scope in Mirrodin+kamigawa block, it was a cool deck and maybe you should take inspiration from these buildings to create a good thing.

B.C.
03-23-2008, 07:45 PM
I wouldn't necessarily do all swamps, I'd maybe throw in a playset of Wasteland in there and maybe a couple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if you're concerned with balthor activations. Urborg, Tomb of yawmoth is also pretty nice with Street Wraith.

I have to disagree on this. Mana denial is not a strategy of this deck. Wastelands will make the already tight mana base even tighter. Urborg is also open to enemy Wastelands.

raharu
03-23-2008, 11:11 PM
I find a startling lack of Hypnotic Specter. Perhaps in the Chittering Rats slots? Would you consider switching Skullsnatcher for Withering Wretch? Do you see any particlular strength to keeping the rat theme? On the note of rats, Ink-Eyes actually would be fairly vicious in this deck. As for the disruption, with Ink-Eyes in the deck, I would strongly sugest Cabal Therapy because of the ability to flashback a Therapy taking an Ink-Eyes into the yard and then activate Balthor. On the note of Balthor, hs he ever become a liability against zoo/ Sligh/ Goblins?

B.C.
03-24-2008, 11:10 AM
I find a startling lack of Hypnotic Specter. Perhaps in the Chittering Rats slots? Would you consider switching Skullsnatcher for Withering Wretch? Do you see any particlular strength to keeping the rat theme? On the note of rats, Ink-Eyes actually would be fairly vicious in this deck. As for the disruption, with Ink-Eyes in the deck, I would strongly sugest Cabal Therapy because of the ability to flashback a Therapy taking an Ink-Eyes into the yard and then activate Balthor.

I'm a big fan of Hyppie, and I like Withering Wretch as well, but they are not really in the vein of this deck concept. The emphasis is on fairly cheap creatures that have disruptive CIP abilities, bounce them back to hand with Ninjas, and replay. After enough development, nuke with Balthor. The "rat theme" is really only a theme because the rats have the good CIP abilities, and the ninjas are rats.

Ink Eyes is a monster, but to me it seems like a win-more card in this deck.

Cabal Therapy is perfect for this deck. I'm working on getting it in there.


On the note of Balthor, hs he ever become a liability against zoo/ Sligh/ Goblins?

I haven't tested against Zoo or Sligh yet. Against Goblins Balthor can certainly be as good (or better) for them than it is for you. Just look at their graveyard. If they have 2 Lackeys and a Warchief and you have 2 Street Wraith, Shriekmaw, Bone Shredder, and 2 Rats, then go ahead and activate him. If they have Warchief, 2 Matrons, Ringleader, and a Siege-Gang Commander, then I would leave that club in the bag.

Media314r8
03-24-2008, 01:00 PM
the deck actually looks like a slightly promising, VERY budget deck. I played aginst thresh, and basicly won game 1 before the player left. I wish people on MWS knew how the cards they play worked. He tried to force a ninjitsu activation, and shortly left thereafter.

It is now the Combat Phase, Beginning Of Combat Step
Media314r8 taps Mutavault
RObert(BR)'s life total is now 11 (-2)
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Blockers Step
Media314r8 taps Swamp
Media314r8 taps Swarmyard
Media314r8 taps Swamp
Media314r8 plays Throat Slitter from Hand
Media314r8 taps Throat Slitter
RObert(BR) plays Force of Will from Hand
Media314r8 puts Mutavault to Hand from Play
RObert(BR) puts Daze to RFG from Hand
RObert(BR)'s life total is now 13 (+2)
<Media314r8> you'll need a stifle
RObert(BR) puts Force of Will to Graveyard from Play
<Media314r8> its an activated abilituy
<RObert(BR)> nono
<Media314r8> then this is happening
<RObert(BR)> read
<Media314r8> read what?
<System> Player Lost

This was the list I played:

RATS!

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [TSP] Swarmyard
12 [LRW] Swamp (2)
2 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [P2] Ravenous Rats
4 [BOK] Throat Slitter
4 [CHK] Nezumi Cutthroat
3 [CHK] Nezumi Shortfang
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [MOR] Moonglove Changeling
1 [BOK] Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
3 [7E] Crypt Rats

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle

needles could probably be something else. Mutavult + ninjitsu + swarmyard FTW! Crypt rats + swarmyard is pretty decent too.

Willoe
03-24-2008, 01:21 PM
How about a more controllish shell and a Ratcatcher or is he simply way too expensive? It might be a good way to tutor answers like Nameless Inversion. But I don't know.

B.C.
03-24-2008, 02:00 PM
the deck actually looks like a slightly promising, VERY budget deck.

Very true. This deck is as cheap as it gets. My updated list:

20 Swamp
= 20 land

4 Balthor the Defiled
4 Chittering Rats
3 Ravenous Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
3 Throat Slitter
4 Shriekmaw
3 Bone Shredder
4 Street Wraith
3 Phyrexian Rager
= 32 creatures

4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
= 8 spells

4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
= 15 sideboard

Aether Vial and Phyrexian Rager have tested very well so far. Cabal Therapy isn't as explosive of a turn 1 as Thoughtseize, but it gets better as the game goes on.

Media314r8
03-24-2008, 02:34 PM
well, I beat UGr thresh and Stifle-naught and an odd thran dynamo deck, with a loss to mono B. (only 1 game played)

I hate MWS: apparently people can't grasp the fact that combat damage uses the stack. (I realize that 6th ed only came out like 7 years ago...) I put combat damage on against stifle naught, THEN activated rats for 1 (would be lethal with the damage on the stack) to see if he'd stifle it. (in which case I would then activate it again and again if necessary) He let it resolve and some of the guys that had assigned damage dies, so he claimed he didn't take any damage from them. (facepalm.jpg)


EDIT: beat an agro-loam deck for the match, after a looong game 3 (tied) and g4 won by RATS!

Cavius The Great
03-24-2008, 06:06 PM
RATS!

That's exactly what I'll say if I ever lose against this deck. "RATS!" lol. :tongue:


This deck is as cheap as it gets.

Pithing Needle, Jittes and Extirpate aren't cheap...

B.C.
03-25-2008, 11:11 AM
Some of my latest impressions of the deck:

Swarmyard is a lot better than I thought it would be. Being able to regenerate your little dorks to block for infinity turns is tech.

Crypt Rats are hot. Thanks Media314r8. They are especially hot with Swarmyard. One of the best 2 card combos ever in my opinion. They replace Bone Shredder.

I'm putting fetchlands back into my build. I find myself manaflooded too much since I went to all Swamps. Fetchlands take an extra land out of your deck, making it more probable that you will draw business later in the game. I don't worry as much about the life loss anymore since I replaced Thoughtseize with Cabal Therapy. They're back in.

This deck is very competitive. The only game I've been blown out was against Lands! Extirpate against their LftL would help immensely, although I still think it would be a weak matchup.

Nihil Credo
03-25-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm putting fetchlands back into my build. I find myself manaflooded too much since I went to all Swamps. Fetchlands take an extra land out of your deck, making it more probable that you will draw business later in the game.
No. (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096)

B.C.
03-25-2008, 01:16 PM
No.

Well, I'm convinced. Seriously. I consider myself open to valid arguments, and that certainly was one. I'll try cutting a land instead to see how that feels.

Maveric78f
03-25-2008, 01:52 PM
Playing fetchlands to epure your deck is equivalent to play a street wraith that cycles for 5 lives and does nothing either way (never a swampwalk creature). I'm not sure it's good even in an aggro deck (which your deck is not). But actually the biggest reason for not playing fetches in a monocolor deck remains the fact that it is stiflable.

You should follow the link to find the valid arguments... (edit: but the link is broken)

B.C.
03-25-2008, 02:04 PM
You should follow the link to find the valid arguments... (edit: but the link is broken)

I did follow the link (it worked for me), and I did read the article. I'm saying as non-sarcastically as possible that I have changed my mind about Fetchlands thinning a deck.

mnellsae
03-25-2008, 02:04 PM
Well, I'm convinced. Seriously. I consider myself open to valid arguments, and that certainly was one. I'll try cutting a land instead to see how that feels.

If life loss is not a problem for you historically with this deck, keep the fetch lands in (evaluating Stifle separately). Even though that article only indicates a minor improvment for drawing business spells, sometimes minor improvements win you the game. I'll take a 3% chance of changing my draw from land to business over 0% anyday, as long as I can afford the life.

The article really just says that there's only an incremental improvement when using fetch lands for the purposes of thinning. BUT, there is improvement, and all incremental improvements evenually add up.

Media314r8
03-25-2008, 02:38 PM
well, moonglove changling hasn't been nearly as impressive as I'd imagined, however, ravenous rats have been incredible! (assuming you know/can guess what deck they're playing) his synergy with therapy is great, and with jitte, he's a threat that must be dealt with. Crypt rats has also been great, and the power of turn 1 rats makes me want to cut 2 swamps and 2 critters for 4 dark rits.

xsockmonkeyx
03-25-2008, 10:22 PM
Crypt Rats are hot. Thanks Media314r8. They are especially hot with Swarmyard. One of the best 2 card combos ever in my opinion. They replace Bone Shredder.

<3 Crypt Rats. They were one of my favorite critters back when Visions came out. Crypts Rats are like a mini deed for creatures, with the added ability to finish off your opponent with them once in a while. The Swarmyard combo looks pretty awesome actually.

Jaiminho
03-25-2008, 11:04 PM
I'll take a 3% chance of changing my draw from land to business over 0% anyday, as long as I can afford the life.
The thing is that it is far below 3%. Drawing a given 4-of card (none showed up yet) from a 50 card library is about 8%. Drawing it from a 49 card library is like 8,16%. In my sight, it doesn't outweight the fact that it is a Stifle target.

Media314r8
03-26-2008, 12:04 AM
You're misreading the odds. He's merely trying to improve late-game topdecks by drawing spells in place of lands. Thus, hes not trying to draw that 4-of spell more consistently he's trying to draw non-lands more consistently. EX:

Turn 5 on the draw: 12 card drawn from your 60 card deck (with 18 lands and 4 moxen) means you will have drawn 4 lands on average. Now suppose we sub out 6 basic swamps for fetches, we will have likely drawn one of those fetches. If we crack a fetch, the likelihood of drawing a non-land on turn 6 goes from:

Only basics: 62.5%
(4 of 22 lands drawn, 8 of 38 spells drawn, leaving 30/48 chance of drawing a non-land)

to...
With fetch: 63.83%
(4 of 22 lands drawn 1 fetched, 8 of 38 spells drawn, leaving 30/47 chance of drawing a non-land) 65.22%

to...
With two fetches: (unlikely unless we run the full 8 on-color fetches)
(4 of 22 lands drawn 2 fetched, 8 of 38 spells drawn, leaving 30/46 chance of drawing a non-land)

So there is about a 1.33% improvement that you will be drawing a non-land the following turn in the following situation.

Suppose it's turn one, on the play, and you open with two lands, (possibly including 1 fetch, in which case you fetch turn one) your odds of drawing a non-land turn two go from:

Only basics: 62.23%
(2 of 22 lands drawn, 5 of 38 spells drawn, leaving 33/53 chance of drawing a non-land)

to...
With fetch: 63.46%
(2 of 22 lands drawn, 1 fetched, 5 of 38 spells drawn, leaving 33/52 chance of drawing a non-land)

so a 1.2% improvement in your odds of drawing a non-land if you fetch turn 1.




-----

In conclusion, if improving your odds of drawing business spells by 1.2%-1.4% are worth 5% of your life total (and your mana curve is low enough and your deck aggressive enough that you don't mind a double fetch opener), and you like improving your odds (and knowing them if you bothered to read this) then fetches in mono-decks are for you. (this is outside of stifle considerations)

Media314r8

Media314r8
03-26-2008, 12:23 AM
PS: This is also a reason why, if you ARE looking to hit that fifth land for SGC or deed or something, and you dont need the mana now, or the shuffle effect, and your opponent isnt playing stifle, DONT CRACK THAT FETCH! The odds of drawing your FIFTH land decrease drasticly if you crack your fourth land (a fetch) just 'because.'

(if you're interested in the math, taking into account my goblins deck only plays 21 lands, and not accounting for warchief/vial effects, just hardcasting SGC on turn 6)

It's turn five and you just missed your land drop, (on the draw, you've seen 12 cards of 60, and you run 21 lands, so you SHOULD have only seen four lands, and you might have just gotten greedy with that wasteland...) that SGC in your hand is eager to start wrecking house on that goldfish across the way, and you're willing to bet he's not packing daze, so do you crack that fetch on the table and try to draw a warcheif effect, or do you keep it there and hope for the fifth land.

Your odds: (assume no matroning/ringleading is going on)

To draw 'chief' (assume your typical deck runs 4... I run a 3/3 split of chiefs/banneretts) WITHOUT fetching:
you run 4, you've seen 12 cards. you have a 4/48 chance, or
8.333%

chance of seeing chief if you DO crack that fetch (4/47):
8.51%

Chances of drawing that land so you can play SGC the hard way WITHOUT fetching (you've seen 4 of 21 lands, and 8 of 39 spells, thus 17/48:
35.42%

Chaces of hitting land number 5 if you DO crack the fetch (16/47):
34.04%

Thus, save that damn fetch! Especially if you are recovering from pox/sinkhole/wasteland, you need the odds in your favor, especially if you've fetched in the past. 1% can mean a lot, and as you can see, the improvement in seeing the other relevant card isn't as great as the decrease in the odds you'll see that fifth land. +.2% chance of seeing a chief, -1.5% chance of seeing the fifth land. There are other factors of course, but keep this little math lesson in mind when you go to crack those fetches. Merry gaming, and remember, play the odds.

Media314r8

mnellsae
03-26-2008, 01:00 PM
The thing is that it is far below 3%. Drawing a given 4-of card (none showed up yet) from a 50 card library is about 8%. Drawing it from a 49 card library is like 8,16%.

I wasn't talking about any specfic card in my deck other than non-land, as Media aleady pointed out.


In my sight, it doesn't outweight the fact that it is a Stifle target.

I agree; based on the slight statistical change by using fetch lands, the Stifle question is probably the most relevant consideration when running a mono colored deck.

I think the article and this discussion is very informative, but it is not specific to The Rat Pack. Is there anyway to break out the last few posts and move it into the Format Discussion forum?

Fons
04-07-2008, 10:00 PM
anyone got a new list for this deck? it seems like it could still be viable.

B.C.
04-08-2008, 10:48 AM
My most recent list:

17 Swamp
2 Swarmyard
= 19 land

4 Balthor the Defiled
4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
3 Throat Slitter
4 Shriekmaw
3 Crypt Rats/Bone Shredder (haven't decided)
4 Street Wraith
= 30 creatures

4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
= 11 spells

3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Rend Flesh
3 Hymn to Tourach
= 15 sideboard

I'm thinking about playing it at a tournament this weekend. I think it could do well. It has good matchups against a lot of top decks (Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Thresh). It has trouble with fat artifact or black creatures, however (Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers, for example). That's why Rend Flesh is in the board.

Fons
04-08-2008, 11:27 AM
I noticed you aren't playing skull collector. he seems like he would be really good here as he can create a lockdown with chittering rats and aether vial and he carries jitte very well.

Edit: In my testing crypt rats has been much better than boneshredder.

B.C.
04-08-2008, 12:48 PM
I noticed you aren't playing skull collector. he seems like he would be really good here as he can create a lockdown with chittering rats...

Skull Collector probably deserves a serious look. He has fantastic interaction with Chittering Rats, Ravenous Rats, and Bone Shredder (with respect to Skull Collector interaction, Bone Shredder >> Crypt Rats).

Fons
04-08-2008, 02:23 PM
alright heres my list.

// Lands
16 [MM] Swamp (2)
3 [TSP] Swarmyard

// Creatures
2 [BOK] Skullsnatcher
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [JU] Balthor the Defiled
3 [10E] Phyrexian Rager
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [SOK] Skull Collector
4 [10E] Ravenous Rats
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
2 [UL] Bone Shredder

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

---Sword of Light and Shadow is so good in this deck. If you have street wraith in your yard you gain 1 life and draw. Plus it gives your creature a constant buff and gives protection from some of the best creature removal.
---Dark Ritual gives you a huge speed boost early game.

Thehunter820
04-08-2008, 02:50 PM
I think you could try Umezawa's Jitte here. Also, how does the deck fair against combo, thresh, and say dragon stompy, and stax?

B.C.
04-08-2008, 03:40 PM
I think you could try Umezawa's Jitte here. Also, how does the deck fair against combo, thresh, and say dragon stompy, and stax?

Jitte is in my list. I'm not sold on Light/Shadow.

This deck does very well against Threshold, Goblins, and Dragon Stompy. I've never tested against Stax, although I think it would be an ok-to-even matchup. It is a little weak against combo game 1, but postboard it gets a lot better since you can bring in Extirpate, Hymn, and Chalice (or Pithing Needle if you're playing Belcher).

Bad matchups I've found so far:

43 Lands - Need to Extirpate LftL or else they just control the board.

Dreadstill - Dreadnaughts are too big and immune to Shriekmaw/Bone Shredder.

Apex
04-09-2008, 02:38 AM
I'm pretty sure on the fetchland issue, based on Garrett Johnson's calculations (which, besides some assumptions that were necessary, seemed correct to me. But then again, I'm only an undergrad in stats, maybe there are some more math voodoo that comes with higher level statistics that disproves of his proof), if you run a 8 fetch, 12 land configuration (a basic assumption, since more lands just mean even less chance), you will end up seeing an extra spell every nine games on the 12th turn, while at the same time, paying 2.5 life for it per game. That means you would pay 22 life for a card, and you would only see this card every 9 games, on the 12th turn no less.

Basically, fetchlands blow chunks in monocoloured decks, especially ones that can't take advantage of the shuffle effect. Don't run them, they are pretty useless. Add in the fact that Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon makes your fetches frown, and they are susceptible to stifles, fetches in monocoloured deck is just absurd.

On the deck, why just strictly a monoblack theme? Is there any specific benefit to being monoblock, other than the fact that you dodge Wastelands? Some of the best Ninjas are blue, and you can shore up the weak side of monoblack with some blue help (bounce, counter, card advantage). Also, is there a reason to run Phyrexian Rager over Dark Confidant? I would think, even if Dark Confidant doesn't have a 187 ability, the fact that he comes out a turn earlier, and is just ridiculous when he sticks around, makes him a better guy to include than the Rager.

B.C.
04-09-2008, 12:00 PM
I have been convinced that no fetchlands is the way to go.

I don't think there's any solid reason that this deck has to be monoblack. If you want to splash blue, I say give it a try. It does have to be heavy black, though. Many of the cards require BB, and Balthor's activation requires BBB. It also runs a low number of lands, so being immune to Wasteland/Moon effects is important.

I tried Dark Confidant in the first version of the deck, but the mana curve is just too high for him. The average cc of my last list was 3.00.

Some more recent changes and/or opinions:

Big Game Hunter >> Rend Flesh. He's my solution to Tombstalker/Dreadnaught. I have 4 in my board.

In my testing, I like Chrome Mox a lot better than Dark Ritual.

Skull Collector is situationally a bomb, and situationally a giant suck bag. I probably wouldn't run more than 2-3.

Thehunter820
04-09-2008, 03:09 PM
I'll have to test it but I dont see a positive match with thresh happening with this.

Willoe
04-10-2008, 02:19 PM
In such an in-explosive deck (no offense), Chrome Mox is just a hell lot better than Dark Ritual IMO. The most important drops to be able to play is - without any experience with the deck - Ravenous Rats IMO. Being able to disrupt the opponent, i.e. if he's playing a combo deck with a god hand, he might lose a piece that makes him unable to combo out until he topdecks another. Isn't that along with Chittering Rats, your only outlet against combo? I know that combo's not that present at the moment, but it's sad to have an as bad matchup data as 43lands despite the deck's not 43 land.

B.C.
04-10-2008, 04:06 PM
In such an in-explosive deck (no offense), Chrome Mox is just a hell lot better than Dark Ritual IMO.

Completely agree.

As for the other issue, I am trying out Thoughtseize in the deck again. Being able to pick a card for them to discard turn 1 is superior to any other option. Ravenous/Chittering Rats are very good if the enemy is low on cards (<4), otherwise they're not so great.

Preboard against combo, Thoughtseize and Card Rats are your only disruption. Postboard the matchup gets a lot better, as you should be changing a lot of cards.


I'll have to test it but I dont see a positive match with thresh happening with this.

My testing has had very good results against Threshold. I'm curious to find out what your testing will show.

gosumog
04-15-2008, 08:32 AM
wow. blown the fck out X_X. i wanted to make swarmyard ninjas too ^^ never got further than talkin tho. u can keep swinging and .. yea. nezumi cutthroat (2/1 fear right?) is nuts

rufus
04-15-2008, 01:35 PM
As for the other issue, I am trying out Thoughtseize in the deck again. Being able to pick a card for them to discard turn 1 is superior to any other option. Ravenous/Chittering Rats are very good if the enemy is low on cards (<4), otherwise they're not so great.

Even with Thoughtseize, the deck seems a bit lean in the 1cc slot. I expect that the deck can work very well with 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Duress since it's control-heavy.

Corrupt Court Official isn't necessarily easy to find, but is a potential fit for the deck.

Fons
04-15-2008, 01:40 PM
heres 6 of them http://www.cardkingdom.com/index.php?sid=414401533&keyword=corrupt+court&main=catalog&catalog_id=125

I thought about playing them however with swarmyard in the deck they aren't as cool

Willoe
04-15-2008, 05:56 PM
Even though Corrupt Official is far more pimpy than Ravenous Rats, it's just a Ravenous Rats in another random MBC deck. It's got literally no purpose other than making you look like an enthusiast.

@Combo matchups. Isn't there a rat with "sac CARDNAME: semi-sweet effect" at 1cc? If so, it would improve Ichorid matchup a lot by removing bridges.

And yes, ffs yes, play both Duress and Thoughtseize in the 1cc slot.

LOL, there IS one rat that does that!: Nezumi-Shadow Watcher, but that's very dissynergistic in a deck playing Ninjas itself.

A rules question: Is it legal to play that ability even though there's no ninjas in play?

Gnat Miser might have a minimal effect against certain combo. And if that effect is reason enough to play it, for god's sake play it! :D

16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn To Tourach

4 Street Wraith
2 Balthor the Defiled
4 Phyrexian Rager
3 Skull Collector
4 Ravenous Rats
2 Chittering Rats
2 Bone Shredder

4 AEther Vial
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

curve:
0cc - 4
1cc - 12
2cc - 6
3cc - 13
4cc - 2
5cc - 4

Average CMC: 1,51 if I have calculated it the right way. No reason not to play Dark Confidant over Street Wraith. You gain more card advantage even though it's not as synergistic with SoLS and Balthor. But by cutting those Wraith's, your average cmc will drop to 1,18. In Dark Confidant, you get a threat that will have to get answered before it's too late and you overrun them with rats. And then he baits the removal so that your other dudes get through.

A little note on the Skull Collector synergy: Damn, this is sweet! You get a dude that chumps goyf all day (by regenerating of course) while stripping the opponent's hand for just 2bb. Isn't that a big deal? I love it! :D

Is this list too discard heavy? Instead of eliminating the opposing threahts on the board, you slaughter them before they even hit. How does that sound? The curve's a little bit awkward, and I think that 19 lands is a little too low. What do you guys think of this build? Of course, with all that nonland discard, you get a poor game against 43lands, but is that present? Meh. Extirpates, Crypts, Pithing Needle (on Monastries) etc. can save your ass.

overseer1234
06-26-2008, 06:31 AM
How's this deck doing? is it dead? Becaus I had the impression that it was doing fairly good for a homebrew...

B.C.
06-26-2008, 11:50 AM
How's this deck doing? is it dead? Becaus I had the impression that it was doing fairly good for a homebrew...

I did ok with it on MWS, but then I actually took it to a tournament once and it got crushed. Still a fun deck idea, though.

Mirrislegend
06-26-2008, 12:19 PM
Did you take it to a tourney with a counter-top heavy meta? Your focus on 3cc should bend those matchups further in your favor, thus giving you some advantage against the field.

B.C.
06-26-2008, 02:27 PM
Did you take it to a tourney with a counter-top heavy meta?

No, it was a small, fairly random meta. I just ended up getting blown out by random cards like Crystalline Sliver and Form of the Dragon. I also got my ass kicked by Ichorid. Against a more structured metagame it would probably do a lot better.

pcccp
05-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Has anyone tried Stinkweed Imp in this deck? I think its the perfect card for it. Evasion is good with Jitte or other equipments (SoLS). Imp is instant removal with vial @3 in combat. Imp stops Goyf and Tombstalker from attacking. And dredging him fills your grave for the final Balthor.

It looks like the deck had some success the last couple of weeks:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25673

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25020

B.C.
05-16-2009, 08:23 PM
It looks like the deck had some success the last couple of weeks:


I'm so happy, I think I'm going to cry. I always thought this deck could kick some ass, I just didn't have the patience or opportunity to make it a contender. I'm glad someone picked up the torch.

pcccp
05-17-2009, 12:47 PM
I took the deck to a small tournament and finished second. I beat UGbw Thresh and Mono G Stompy and lost to Aggro Loam. I will try the deck on bigger tournaments soon.

matamagos
06-05-2009, 05:17 AM
congrats pcccp!

Would not this one be a good deck to run mirror entity?

overseer1234
06-05-2009, 07:40 AM
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25673


Ive tested that list but replaced the wraith with skull collector's (for the sweet lock with chittering rats)

I have to say that it's really a blast to play. (The opponent's face when you just go for balthor and crack it :D)

However throat slither can sometimes be so dumb and useless that I would kick it from the main deck (shriekmaw + ninjutsu/collector/SoLaS should be enough and jitte), I just don's know what to replace them with yet...

Some questions regarding the sideboard:

When do you ever use bitter blossom? It just seems so useles in my eye's.. :s I would replace them to get the 4th duress, Peedle and pate/blood...

Anyway, I hope to see this deck put up some more good result's and make it to established :)

Mystical_Jackass
06-05-2009, 08:54 AM
good ol' Rats! Relentless Rats ftw!!! jk

Seems like the deck lacks some good old fashioned beatdown.

I really like Marrow Gnawer in a rat swarm deck. Also, nezumi bonereader & measure of wickedness work great together with enough accelleration ;P Skull collectors a badass too

matamagos
06-05-2009, 10:32 AM
measure of wickedness could be a pain against blue players. Remember that if he is in control of the card he can play a brainstorm i our end phase and the enchantment returns to us.

B.C.
06-05-2009, 04:11 PM
Skull Collector is ok. I've tried it out a couple times, and it can be really awesome at times and just completely horrible at times. In the end, the gimmicky finish was not worth the inconsistency to me. Street Wraiths for life.

Overseer, I completely agree with you about Throat Slitter. Lately when I've been playing the deck, Slitter is, as you you say, dumb and useless. I plan on replacing it with Bone Shredder, which in my opinion never should have been cut from the deck. Bone Shredder is also awesome with Skull Collector if you decide to go that route. Stinkweed Imp is another option, as pcccp pointed out.

I have brought in Bitterblossom against aggro/random. It's ok.

In my sideboard I am playing Fleshbag Marauder instead of Innocent Blood. It's functionally the same, but it costs 2 more, it provides you a creature to sac if you have a dude you want to not sac, and it recurs with Balthor. Also works with Aether Vial. Perfect fit. I am also trying out Faerie Macabre instead of Extirpate. It's effect isn't nearly as good, but maybe that's ok. I'll report back.

Other notes:

- Mirror Entity is White, other than that it is really good.
- Marrow Gnawer costs 5, which is a lot for this deck.
- This isn't really a tribal aggro deck. It's a control deck with a combo finish. A really really fun combo finish.
- Measure of Wickedness doesn't seem like it would be a reliable way to do damage.

claudio.r
06-05-2009, 05:07 PM
Sorry my ignorance, but what does the combo finish consists of ???

I really like this deck, it's kind of a budget legacy deck, that can ocasionally put some good results as we can see in deckcheck, maybe one of this days i sleeve this up and give it a try.

:smile:

B.C.
06-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Sorry my ignorance, but what does the combo finish consists of ???

Activate Balthor, CIP effects nuke any creatures they may have as well as their hand, attack with lots of creatures. I guess it's not really so much a "combo" as a very powerful effect.

pcccp
06-14-2009, 06:40 AM
I played rats on a tournament with 30+ persons this weekend. I finished 7th place playing 4-2.

14 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swarmyard

// Creatures
3 Chittering Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
2 Street Wraith
2 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Balthor the Defiled
4 Shriekmaw
3 Crypt Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
2 Throat Slitter
2 Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void


1 round: UGW Thresh with Jitte (1-2)
I loose the first and the third round against Jitte. My only way to remove an opponents Jitte is to play another one.
He spellsnares mine and wins.

2 round: UGW Thresh without Jitte (2-1)

I can disrupt his hand early so he is in topdeck mode. Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder and Persish are too much removal for him.

3 round: BW Pox (2-1)

Some situation i remember: he plays smallpox, discards nether spirit and plays tombstalker. End of turn I vial in fleshbag marauder kiling his stalker and sticking the nasty nether spirit to the grave forever. ;-)

Second game i hold a risky hand with no mana and aether vial. My opponent puts pithing needle on vial and plays sinkhole and vindicate on my topdecked lands. I have to say that i never ever should have kept this hand. My fault.

Third game he finds no solution for leyline of the void.

4 round: UGR Swan Thresh (2-1)

Again, i have enough removal for his creatures but i have trouble with counterbalance + top and his combo.

Third game i have rats + swarmyards + jitte. He is searching for a solution but doesnt find a krosan grip and looses to Jitte.

5 round: BG Eva Green (0-2)

He disrupts me early and i never have a chance to play any relevant spells.
Example: I play land, go. He plays land, ritual, sinkhole, thoughtseize. My Shriekmaw is useless against Hippie and Tombstalker and i doent find a third mana for Fleshbag Marauder.

6 round: Mono B Pox (2-0)

I have to say that my opponent played really bad so i can not say if my deck won or he just lost because of all his misplays.
Example: He has 3 swamps + mishras factory in play and one Tombstalker in grave (got fleshbaged). I only have Balthor in play and Fleshbag Marauder and several other creatures are in my grave. He plays Smallpox, i activate Balthor in response, we both bring in our creatures and Fleshbag triggers. In response to the Fleshbag trigger he activates his Mishra. (OMG!)
He sacs his Mishra to Fleshbag, Smallpox resolves and he has to sac another land and Tombstalker. Perfect for me.

The second game he destroys all lands and hands with several pox. A view rounds later i can vial in crypt rats and kill him with the rats ability.

Conclusions:

- This deck looses to Jitte (no surprise). I will play a third Jitte in the sideboard in the future just as removal. Pithing Needle helps too.
- Fleshbag Marauder is really good. I will try 4 maindeck in the future.
- Throat Slitter was useless. Most of the time its a 2/2 rat for 5 mana. You just cant ninjitsu him when you have no early creature with evasion. You can try and attack with your 1/1-rat into a Goyf and hope that he is not blocking so you can ninjitsu but thats not very smart.
I will cut Throat Slitter for Fleshbag Marauder.
- Swarmyard is amazing. Specially when you want or have to finish the opponent with Crypt Rats.
- Engineered Plaque is good game. Other tribal decks have good solutions (Krosan Grip and Goblin King in Goblins, tons of solutions in Elves, Counter and bounce in Meerfolk) we only get hand disruption with cabal therapy and maybe duress.The best solution to Engineered Plague would be less rats and more other black creatures with good CIP abilitys. Fleshbag Marauder instead of Throat Slitter is a start.
- Stinkweed Imp was very usefull. He stopped my opponents from attacking me (with problem creatures like Tombstalker).
- Perish: The best sideboard card. Its so damn usefull (kills Progenitus too).

pcccp
06-14-2009, 07:33 AM
I am searching for other black creatures that could be good with swarmyard. There are no black squirrels and spiders but insects. Some of them could be tested:

- Nantuko Shade

Maybe:
- Plague Fiend
- Carrion Beetles
- Nantuko Husk ( i think we dont have enough creatures)

---
Carrion Beetles

Creature - Insect 1/1, B (1)
{2}{B}, {T}: Remove up to three target cards in a single graveyard from the game.

---
Plague Fiend

Creature - Insect 1/1, 1B (2)
Whenever Plague Fiend deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature unless its controller pays {2}.

Sisyphos
06-14-2009, 10:14 AM
Hi,

I'm the pilot of the lists pcccp linked to in his post.

I wasn't aware of this discussion or I would have registered here sooner to share my thoughts on this fun little deck.

The first time I saw the deck was when it made T8 at an MtG Salvation online tournament. So far I have played versions of the deck in five tournaments, starting with an exact 75card copy of the list used by Marit in the online tournament and slowly changing things from there.

My results were:

1.) 2-4, 25th place, 36 players, winning against Threshhold and a random deck, losing against Belcher, Landstill, Goblins and something I don't remember

2.) 5-0, 1st place, 21 players, winning against CounterTop, Eva Green, Ubg Goodstuff, Belcher and Goblins

3.) 4-0-1, 1st place, 20 players, winning against Landstill, AFoWinnity and two Merfolk lists before ID'ing with a teammate in the last round

4.) 4-2, 12th place, 40 players, missing T8 on tiebreakers, winning against Elfball, White Weenie, Landstill and Red Death, losing against Merfolk and AggroLoam

5.) 4-1, 3rd place, 18 players, winning against Merfolk, Boros Aggro, Doran Zoo and Ugr Threshhold, losing against Solidarity

The bad results of the first tournament are at least in part due to me picking up the final cards for the deck two hours befor the tournament starts and not having bothered to even goldfish it on MWS a couple of times beforehand. I'm not arrogant enough to claim my (small) changes to the list were the single reason for the drastic improvement. :wink:

My current list is:

16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard

4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Shriekmaw
3 Crypt Rats
3 Throat Slitter
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Balthor the Defiled
3 Creakwood Liege / Bitterblossom

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Aether Vial
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Board
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
3 Innocent Blood

Yup, after all the games I only changed 5 cards maindeck and 6 in the board when compared to the list by Marit.

Maindeck I cut one Jitte and the four Street Wraith for three Bitterblossom and two Sword of Light and Shadow. Having two kinds of equipment makes it a lot harder for your opponent to use Pithing Needle. The difference in casting cost is also very nice as most decks rely on Engineered Explosives for artifact and mass removal at the moment. And if you ever equipped a Crypt Rats with a Sword of Light and Shadow against any creature based deck, you'll never want another Jitte,
As for the Bitterblossoms, one of the lists pcccp linked to, still has them in the board but I noticed that I brought them in against basically everything. I played a lot of Ubw/Ubg Fish decks before picking up the Rats and Bitterblossom still does not get as much respect in Legacy as it deserves. If your opponent can't handle it quickly, it, on its own, wins games you wouldn't have a chance in otherwise. Especially when joined by any piece of equipment. Returning a token with ninjitsu means losing quite some tempo and should be of course avoided if possible, but sometimes I gladly exchange a token for a free hit with a Throat Slitter.
Therefor I have to disagree with B.C. on this one. One of the biggest selling points of Bitterblossom is not against random aggro, but against decks like Landstill. Bitterblossom gives you another fighting chance apart from equipment after Landstill drops a Humility on your part of the board. It forces pure control to change their whole game plan.

In the last tournament I swapped the Bitterblossoms for Creakwood Lieges. Bitterblossom has poor synergy with Balthor and at a cc of 2 is very easy to remove with an Engineered Explosives that by the way also took away that Jitte sitting next to it and a random Rat or two. The Liege is slower to get onto the board but provides a much faster clock that does not cost life (but alas does not fly), something that pops up from time to time when you have to rely on Crypt Rats a lot. Its cc of 4 is also much harder for an Engineered Explosives to handle and he can be cheated into play with Balthor and Aether Vial. Concerning the last one, especially in longer games it's quite common that I ramp a Vial up to five to get a uncounterable Shriekmaw. Up to now the turn the Vial gets its fourth counter has always felt dead, as you want to hold back on your Balthors as long as possible. Now there's something useful to do even at four counters. I'm not quite sure at the moment if I prefer Bitterblossom or the Liege.
Liege also gives you the option to at least partially ignore the first Engineered Plague. Both token producers also give you the ability to win even through multiple Plagues by providing a non-Rat thread.

As for the board, one of the first weaknesses I recognized was that you are absolutely positively dead to a first turn Goblin Lackey on the draw with the list used by Marit and a lot of lists suggested here. Even when you play first, you need to have either a Shriekmaw or a blocker and prey they don't have Mogg Fanatic, Warren Wierding or Gempalm Incinerator. That's the main reason to include something like Innocent Blood. There are also some very nice tricks available when you combine Innocent Blood with the recursion of Sword of Light and Shadow and Balthor and the amount of cip effects the deck has.
I considered Contagion for a while because you can get hit multiple weenies at once, but that's seldom a problem with Crypt Rats and this deck does not like to throw away cards (more on this later).
Another thing that has been suggested to me was Darkblast, but unlike ITF you only have the ability to get back creatures, nothing else and milling an equipment is to high a risk in my opinion. Finally neither Contagion nor Darkblast will ever kill a Phyrexian Dreadnought or Tombstalker. Fleshbag Marauder has the same advantages as Innocent Blood does, with one big exception: the little green guys.

The second thing is that I don't like Chalice of the Void as my anti combo card. I've played combo decks like FT for a while and Chalice is not that big of a deal to handle. (I also know that emidln says he never lost a match to discard, but you can't catch everything. ;) ) Unlike Dragon Stompy, you cannot realistically play Chalice @ 1 because you will take out 50+% of your other cards that are of relevance in the match-up, Thoughtseize/Duress and Cabal Therapy.
I prefer Hymn to Tourach as it emphasizes the discard aspect very nicely and it's not quite as dead a card to bring in against non-combo decks. The amount of discard you have access to after boarding can really hurt a lot of decks that don't care much about your creature kill. Probably a question of different playstyles and personal preferences I guess.

Gratz to your T8 with the deck pcccp.
When looking at your list, I see that you have started to cut down on the Street Wraiths too. Same thing that happened to me. First one went out, then another and another....

One thing I can't agree with is the cutting of one Chittering Rats though. They are the best disruption pieces the deck has. As B.C. stated, they are a Time Walk attached to a Grizzly Bear most of the time. I have lost count of the games I won simply by chaining Chittering Rats to deny my opponent any possibility of coming back into the game.
One game my opponent was stuck on a Tropical Island and an Island. I killed his Tarmogoyf and tried a Cabal Therapy, only to see that his hand included Smother, Pernicious Deed, Bitterblossom amongst other nasty things. The rest of the game went something like this though: Chittering Rats, next turn Skullsnatcher return Chittering Rats, replay Chittering Rats, next turn play another Chittering Rats from hand, final turn Throat Slitter, replay Chittering Rats again. In the meantime, the assorted rats eliminated the rest of his life total.

That's also why I accept the Throat Slitters as a necessary evil at the moment. Early game they are indeed quite bad, but late game they give you another possibility to get semi-infinite turns.

B.C.
06-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Thanks for the insight, Sisyphos. I'm glad that you found our discussion, and congrats for the great finishes with the deck. You definitely have some great ideas (Creakwood Liege... nice) and more tournament experience than anybody else. I'm currently playing this deck in the MTG Salvation Legacy Tournament, and right now I'm 3-0. I'll post a report after it's all over.

At this point it seems to me that we have this deck far enough along to move it to the Established Decks Forum. Mods?

pcccp
06-14-2009, 12:39 PM
Hi,
Gratz to your T8 with the deck pcccp.
When looking at your list, I see that you have started to cut down on the Street Wraiths too. Same thing that happened to me. First one went out, then another and another....

One thing I can't agree with is the cutting of one Chittering Rats though. They are the best disruption pieces the deck has. As B.C. stated, they are a Time Walk attached to a Grizzly Bear most of the time. I have lost count of the games I won simply by chaining Chittering Rats to deny my opponent any possibility of coming back into the game.

I like Street Wraith, but the deck needs space for other cards that do better then only cantrip before the final balthor. I agree with you that chittering rats is good and i will play 4 of them again. Liege and Bitterblossom sounds interesting and i will test it.

Sisyphos
06-14-2009, 01:46 PM
On a different topic, how did your manabase work out in the last tournament pcccp?

I've been thinking about fitting in the fourth Swarmyard several times, but I was always hesitant of cutting a black source for it, because there have been a couple of games were I couldn't get Balthor out as fast as I wanted due to missing the third black mana.
Urborg mitigates this a problem bit I'd guess but is it enough?

pcccp
06-14-2009, 02:09 PM
Four swarmyards were great. Against UGr Thresh i had two swarmyards in play and could block his goyf and had a regeneration backup for his burn spells. For me, urborg, tomb of y. is an auto-include in this deck because you really need the black mana. I am not sure if 19 lands is enough for this deck. I will try 20 or more next time.
The problem with this deck is that it depends on aether vial. With ninjitsu,crypt rats, regenerating swarmyards and equipments you need a lot of extra mana every round. I can not count on aether vial itself. It gets needled, countered or krosan gripped all day so i really need a lot of mana to bring in my stuff.

This deck needs more solid 1-drops as we all figured out before. Sadly there is no black rat lackey out there that could be included so maybe senseis devining top could be inserted. With top you could add dark confidant (as a better replacement for the street wraith draw) and fetchlands. Its just an idea, haven´t tested it at all.

Happy Gilmore
06-14-2009, 03:15 PM
If I remember correctly, the rats decks were so good because of aether Vial, not having it seems suspect.

B.C.
06-14-2009, 04:23 PM
If I remember correctly, the rats decks were so good because of aether Vial, not having it seems suspect.

I don't think he is suggesting dropping Aether Vial. He is just saying that getting Vial disrupted can throw a wrench in your plans, so having some extra mana to work with wouldn't hurt.

I have gone up to 20 lands. I also think Thoughtseize is a much better 1-drop than Cabal Therapy. I've come up empty with Therapy too many times, especially early in games. If I was playing this deck in a tournament tomorrow, I would probably play:

16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard
1 Urborg
4 Balthor
4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Shriekmaw
4 Skullsnatcher
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Creakwood Liege
3 Crypt Rats
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Jitte
1 SoLS

I also love Street Wraith, but I will concede that it could probably be replaced with something a little more useful (i.e. Creakwood Liege).

pcccp
06-15-2009, 02:21 AM
I don't think he is suggesting dropping Aether Vial. He is just saying that getting Vial disrupted can throw a wrench in your plans, so having some extra mana to work with wouldn't hurt.

I have gone up to 20 lands. I also think Thoughtseize is a much better 1-drop than Cabal Therapy.

Yes, i don´t want to drop Aether Vial but the deck needs a good chance to win without it. Nobody is playing welder survival anymore because the deck looses to one pithing needle.

I am not sure if Thoughtseize is better then Cabal Therapy when you have a constant flow of tokens with Liege / Bitterblossom. Maybe a mix of both cards would be good. (More 1-drops is good anyway for this deck)

pcccp
06-15-2009, 03:50 AM
With all the tokens from Bitterblossom and/or Liege would Braids,Cabal Minion be a good idea ? The really funny thing about Braids is that he is a Minion!! :laugh:

Seriously, Braids + Bitterblossom/Liege is a permanent lock and if your opponent is able to nuke your board you can bring Liege+Braids back with Balthor.

Bitterblossom/Liege also makes a lock with Contamination possible. This would be more a sideboard strategy against some decks i think.

I hope to get a week off from work to find some time to test all these ideas. :smile:

Sisyphos
06-15-2009, 03:59 AM
Regarding the inclusion of token producers, I've been considering Contamination as a potential sideboard card for some while now. If it resolves, it's basically good game against a lot of decks. We pack enough creatures, recursion and now tokens to make it work I'd say.

Just wanted to hear your opinions on it, whether it's good enough to warrant a spot and if it is, what would you consider cutable from your boards?

edit: oops, guess someone had the same idea. Didn't see your post while writing. :smile: As for Braids, a friend of mine has been toying around with a single Braids maindeck the one time he gave the deck a tryout. I'd say it's at least a good idea to test as the inclusion of Contamination, but you probably will not have enough room for both of them.

pcccp
06-15-2009, 07:17 AM
Hmm, at a deeper look its clear that Contamination is not a black Blood Moon. Wasteland, Mishra´s Factory and Mutavault function normal and produce black mana instead of colorless. If a Landstill player has Mishra, Crucible and Elspeth on the table the Contamination lock could be not enough.

What to cut ... has anyone tried 3 instead of 4 Balthor? Activating him is a main strategy of the deck of course, but do we really need 4 ?

Maybe something like this:

3x balthor
3x braids
3x liege
3x ravenous rats
2x Skullsnatcher
4x chittering rats
4x shriekmav
2x crypt rats
2x fleshbag marauder

3x bitterblossom
4x cabal therapy
4x aether vial
2x Jitte
1x SoLaS

14x swamp
3x swarmyard
1x urborg, tomb of y.

B.C.
06-15-2009, 09:03 AM
What to cut ... has anyone tried 3 instead of 4 Balthor? Activating him is a main strategy of the deck of course, but do we really need 4 ?

I am strongly against this. The only thing better than a Balthor activation is 2 Balthor activations. Plus, he could always get countered (assuming no Vial), or his ability could be Stifled.

Sisyphos
06-15-2009, 01:19 PM
Seconded. Balthor is one of the last things, if not the last thing I'd consider for cuts.

I'd also be hesitant of dropping down to just 18 land. As was discussed earlier, 19 is the bare minimum I think and a case could be made for going up to 20.

3 Liege + 3 Blossom is also most likely overkill. I'd play 4 of these effects at most, three has been fine for me up to now. Braids as a 3-of seems too slow. It delays the disruption effect the deck has about 1-2 turns when compared to the rat effects. Crypt Rats have been so good for me, I'd be very hesitant to reduce the probability of drawing one.

I'd probably go
-3 Liege/Blossom, -1 Braids
+1 Crypt Rats +1 Ravenous Rats +1 Balthor +1 Swamp
as a starting point.

I'm still not sold on Fleshbag Marauder. You two seem to like him a lot, but I don't know. I admit I haven't tested him yet, but in theory, he's a dead draw on an empty board, he comes back with Balthor but also leaves again basically at the same time, I dunno. Doesn't sound that strong to me.

edit: Regarding Contamination, it is indeed no Blood Moon. On the other hand it is in certain areas better than Blood Moon. No more basic Forest for a Krosan Grip, no more basic Island for a blue blast. Once it hits, most decks will not be able to get rid of it. And they will not be able to cast upwards of 50% of the cards their decks play. The fact that it does not turn of Mutavault or Wasteland alone would not discourage me. Rather the fact, that I just can't find room in the board.

pcccp
06-16-2009, 03:19 AM
I have to agree with you guys. The list i posted has an error. Its not 14 swamps but 16. So i would never go down to 18 lands and would play not less then 20 from now on. I tested a little bit on MWS and i have to say that braids + liege + balthor is too much in the 4cc slot. I liked Bitterblossom a lot with cabal therapy and equipment. I played against meerfolk and then i missed the crypt rats, so i think 3 maindeck should be better.

eq.firemind
06-16-2009, 05:06 AM
Hi thread!

With M10 rules I start seaching a deck to possibly replace my current (Death and Taxes). This one looks pretty tricky and all theese tricks is the reason I enjoy Magic, so I took a list from MTGSalvation tourney and modified it using information in this thread. Here it is:

16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard

4 Aether Vial
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize - The discard package works as it should. Therapy after Seize can be silly.

3 Ravenous Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Shriekmaw (-1)
2 Bitterblossom - only 2 'cause I run 1 Liege
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Crypt Rats
2 Fleshbag Maraduer - He deals with Nought, Tombstalker, Progenitus and Bridge from Below, he can be vialed and he is silly with SoLaS
4 Chittering Rats
1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Works great with Shriekmaw and Maraduer.

4 Balthor the Defiled
1 Creakwood Liedge - For better vial. Can make your clock ticking surprisingly fast.
(+2) Snuff Out

1 Throat Slitter (-1) - still here because of Ninjutsu and vial for 5(for uncounterable Shriekmaw).

SB:
3 Innocent Blood - for Lackey, Enchantress, Dreadnought.
3 Thorn of Amethyst - For Combo and Burn.
2 Offasnout- GY hate of choice. Crushes Dredge, nice with SoLaS, can be vialed if necessery. Maybe Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt here?
2 Extirpate - More traditional GY hate.
3 Engeneered Plague - For Tribal and Enchantress (problematic MU for me)
2 Free Slots. Currently Chains of Mephistopheles - For Enchantress, decks with Brainstorm(50-80% of metagame) and to wrench opponent's brain :smile:.

What do you think about including 2-3 Snuff Out? This could help against problems like Dreadnought, Affinity, turn 1 Lackey(not very bright here, but better than nothing) and in many other general situations. Looks too painful ('Seize, 'Blossom and Snuff Out is a lot of pain), but we don't run fetchlands and we have 4 lifegaining equipment, so I'll try +2 Snuff Out, -1 Throat Slitter -1 Shriekmaw.

Any advice will be appriciated!

Sisyphos
06-16-2009, 07:23 AM
The list you posted is 64 cards, as you included 4 Thoughtseize maindeck without cutting anything from the standard builds.

Apart from that, I'd probably cut the last Throat Slitter before touching the Shriekmaws, if you want to try Snuff Out. Shriekmaw + Balthor is even better than Fleshbag + Balthor.

Otherwise the list looks fine.

eq.firemind
06-16-2009, 08:22 AM
The list you posted is 64 cards, as you included 4 Thoughtseize maindeck without cutting anything from the standard builds
Fixed that, thanks.


Apart from that, I'd probably cut the last Throat Slitter before touching the Shriekmaws, if you want to try Snuff Out.
That "nonartifact" clause worries me 'cause 1-2 Affinity is often guest in my meta. Slitter is not fast enough vs Affinity, but still better than Shriekmaw.
Outside that robots in my meta it sounds fair 'cause I already run Thoughtseize to deal with that scary Nought.

Sisyphos
06-16-2009, 09:34 AM
That "nonartifact" clause worries me 'cause 1-2 Affinity is often guest in my meta. Slitter is not fast enough vs Affinity, but still better than Shriekmaw.


Don't know how large your tournaments are, but I'd probably run with the card that's better against 20-30+ decks in the field and not the one that's better against 1-2 decks.

As for Affinity in general, that has proven to be one of the toughest match-ups for the deck in my testing. (The others being AggroLoam and Combo) If you're up against a halfway competent player and his draws are not completely horrible, chances are you get run over more often than not. At least against Loam and Combo your sideboard kicks into high gear, but against Affinity all you have are Needles and those are quite unimpressive against Master of Etherium.

If Affinity is widely played in your area, you might consider Gate to Phyrexia for your sideboard. That was the best idea I could come up with, when I thought about how to improve my chances against Affinity.

eq.firemind
06-17-2009, 01:07 AM
I'll try Gate, it'll help against Faerie Stompy too. Well, it'll help against StAX too, but token generators are already a huge pain for StaX.

Idea: how about Recurring Nightmare instead of 1 Balthor? It'll allow us to use our tokens and CIP dudes in more creative ways and is a nice sacrifice outlet for other 3 Balthors. And we can just lock opponent with Shriekmaw/Ravenous/Chittering rats after hitting 6 mana in late game.
I'll try Nightmare with some Rotting Rats and maybe Braids somewhere in the deck.

pcccp
06-17-2009, 03:05 AM
I like the idea of Recurring Nightmare. It would be so amazing, if nightmare wouldnt say "play it as a sorcery". :tongue:

eq.firemind
06-17-2009, 03:40 AM
Balthor and Nightmare have one thing in common: both requre other cards to work and both are useless in void space, so IMHO total number of dwarf and Nightmare must not exceed 5.

Nightmare has the big difference from Balthor:
Dwarf is a one-huge-shot finisher and his activation is near lethal if well prepared.
Nightmare is CA/disruption engine that works well with lesser number of components than Balthor.

I'll try -1 Balthor, -1 something (Throat Slitter 'cause he seems to be the weakest card in the deck), +1 Nightmare +1 Liege (more tokens, Lord effect and still 5 dudes for Vial @4).

claudio.r
06-17-2009, 10:33 AM
I read all the thread just a minute ago, and this looks like a very fun deck. That said, wich do you consider the "must have" cards in this deck ? the ones that without them this can't work.

Ectoplasm
06-20-2009, 03:03 PM
I can't wait for M10 to give us some kind of broken 'mindstab' rat and push this deck over the top. I mean, all we really need is another good discard rat and we'll reach critical mass I think.

In the meantime I'm stocking up on foils for 35 cents apiece :D

On a more serious note, what do people think of Dauthi Mindripper in the 4cc slot? It gives us more of an incentive to crank vials to 4 and the synergy with balthor/nightmare (whatever you prefer) is obvious.

B.C.
06-22-2009, 01:53 PM
That said, which do you consider the "must have" cards in this deck ? the ones that without them this can't work.

I consider the core of the deck to be:

19-20 lands, including 3+ Swarmyard
4 Aether Vial
4 Balthor
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Shriekmaw
6-8 Ravenous/Chittering Rats
3 Crypt Rats

Other cards that are in pretty much everybody's list:

2-4 Equipment (Jitte/SoLS)
3-4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
2-3 Throat Slitter/Fleshbag Marauder


As for Dauthi Mindripper, his ability is definitely powerful, but when I have played this deck my opponent is often in topdeck mode by about turn 5 when Mindripper would get his first attack.

eq.firemind
06-23-2009, 01:04 AM
On a more serious note, what do people think of Dauthi Mindripper in the 4cc slot? It gives us more of an incentive to crank vials to 4 and the synergy with balthor/nightmare (whatever you prefer) is obvious.
If you feel the need in more 4cc dudes (I dought you will), just add more Creakwood Liege. Their both Lord and token-generation effects are very usefull in the deck.

pcccp
07-06-2009, 07:09 AM
I'm currently playing this deck in the MTG Salvation Legacy Tournament, and right now I'm 3-0. I'll post a report after it's all over.



How did you finish the tournament ? Any results you can comment to ? I will take this deck to one of germanys largest monthly legacy tournament this weekend and report back then.
Right now i am testing a single volraths stronghold maindeck. So far it was really helpful. My manabase is now:

3 Swarmyard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Y.
1 Volraths Stronghold
15 Swamp

B.C.
07-06-2009, 10:07 AM
How did you finish the tournament ? Any results you can comment to ?

Yeah, I spoke a little too soon. I ended up going 3-3. I played an older list:

17 Swamp
3 Swarmyard
4 Balthor
4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Shriekmaw
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Street Wraith
3 Throat Slitter
3 Crypt Rats
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Jitte

SB:
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Duress
1 Jitte
3 Pithing Needle
2 Bitterblossom

Pox - Win
Dragon Stompy - Win
Countertop Goyf - Win
Death & Taxes - Lose
Monoblack Aggro - Lose
Monowhite Soldiers - Lose

I would say that Countertop Goyf was probably the easiest match I played. I think this deck is well suited for a tier 1 metagame. Unfortunately, the MTG Salvation Legacy tournament is full of scrubby non-tier decks (including me). My impressions are:

1. Jitte advantage is HUGE. At least 4 games I lost were due to the enemy having a Jitte going.

2. Monoblack decks are a pain in the ass. Shriekmaw and Throat Slitter are worse than useless.

3. I sided in Fleshbag Marauder every match. This is largely due to my matchups, but I still think they should be main.

3a. Here's a question that came up during the tournament. If I have a Aether Vial @ 3, can I Evoke a Shriekmaw and then with his CIP triggers on the stack, Vial in a Fleshbag Marauder, sacrificing Shriekmaw? I think so, but not sure.

4. Fast aggro decks can race this deck. Rats is not a fast aggro deck, it's a control deck. Another reason Jitte is so important.

5. I never played against combo, but I'm pretty sure it would be an auto-loss.

Based on this tournament, my current build looks like this:

16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard
1 Urborg
4 Balthor
4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Shriekmaw
4 Skullsnatcher
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Bitterblossom
3 Crypt Rats
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize (Cabal Therapy sucks. I don't care what you say)
2 Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Jitte
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Extirpate

I plan to play this deck at a real life tournament in a couple weeks. Hopefully that will go a little better. Good luck at your tournament, pcccp.

pcccp
07-06-2009, 12:41 PM
3a. Here's a question that came up during the tournament. If I have a Aether Vial @ 3, can I Evoke a Shriekmaw and then with his CIP triggers on the stack, Vial in a Fleshbag Marauder, sacrificing Shriekmaw? I think so, but not sure.


Yes you can do that. Evoking Shriekmaw means that he hits play, then a sac-trigger goes on the stack and you can respond to that trigger with a vial. Its the same reason why you can sac evoked creatures to Food Chain.

I was looking for good cards that can make use of that, but i havent found any. Recurring Nightmare woulde be a bomb if it doesnt say "sac as sorcery".

eq.firemind
07-07-2009, 04:13 AM
What do you think about light green splash for SB Krosan Grip? I think it can be usefull against opp's Jittes, Shackles, Vials, Deeds, Survival and same stuff.

There is also nice new green creature in M10:
Deadly Recluse :1::g:
Creature -- Spider
Reach, Deathtouch
1/2

Not very impressive by itself, but it kills anything in combat(including Tombstalkers), can suddenly be Vialed in, gives a bad/bad choice for opponent if carries equipment and Swarmyard makes it a pain in ass.

I was also very pleased with Sword of Light and Shadow. I think 1-2 SoLaS is nice addition 'cause it gives you more ways to reuse your grave (in addition to Balthor) and more opportunities to make Da craZZy RatBomb (in addition to Swarmyard).

B.C.
07-07-2009, 10:30 AM
M10 Green Creature

pcccp suggested running Stinkweed Imp a few pages ago. He does pretty much the same thing, and he's on color. Plus, he can recur with dredge and subsequently fill the yard with rodents. I personally don't want to splash green, because then I'd probably want to play Goyf, and at that point I might as well just play Eva Green.

pcccp
07-08-2009, 05:44 PM
I tested some of the cards that were suggested and Recurring Nightmare is amazing so far. Saccing Chittering Rats and recurring it with Nightmare is a permanent lock. Recurring Shriekmav every round is also great.

heroicraptor
07-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Is there just no room for Dark Ritual? It makes for some seriously explosive starts, and late game you can feed them to crypt rats.

eq.firemind
07-09-2009, 03:46 AM
My lates list:
Nightmare Swarm

LANDS (20)
17 Swamp
3 Swarmyard

1-COSTS (9)
4 Aether Vial - No comments
3-4 Thoughtseize - Second best available 1-drop
2-1 Cabal Therapy - Offers protection and recursion target for Nightmare/Balthor in one card for :0: mana, so IMHO deserves 1-2 slots. Acts as utility/setup/protection card, not disruption one.

2-COSTS (15)
4 Ravenous Rats - No comments
4 Skullsnatcher - No comments
2 Bitterblossom - No comments
2 Umezawa's Jitte - No comments
3 Shriekmaw - No comments

3-COSTS (11)
4 Chittering Rats - No comments
3 Crypt Rats - No comments
2 Fleshbag Marauder - He deals with everything Shriekmaw can't: Tombstalker, 'Nought, Progenitus,...
1 Recurring Nightmare - I understood why I like this card so much in this deck: it offers descent effect, but you don't need to do something special to abuse it 'cause you already run 'Maws and Marauders and want dead dudes for Balthor. And now you can use Cabal Therapy's Flashback cost as utility.
1 Sword of Light and Shadow - See below.

4-COSTS (5)
3 Balthor the Defiled - I cut one 'cause I don't feel the need of 6 recursion cards and both Nightmare and Sword have another good applications in the deck.
2 Creakwood Liege - Token generator + lord effect in one card.

SIDEBOARD
3 Innocent Blood - for Gobs and low-threat decks (like Team America).
3 Thorn of Amethyst - for combo and burn.
2 Offalsnout - just cute card, but with some interactions.
2 Extirpate - Generally bad card, but it looks in place here.
2 Engineered Plague - Tribal, Argothian Enchantress, sometimes Decree/Elspeth tokens.
1 Perish - Was 3rd Plague, but Progenitus (Elf) Survival becomes more popular in my meta.
2 Free Slots - need help here

Singleton/2-of cards in deck with no search/draw may look strange, but in fact they all have multiple purpouses in the deck and help to save some space.
Example: Sword of Light and Shadow:
5th recursion (in addition to 3-4 Balthor and 0-1 Nightmare), 4th protection/Da craZZy RatBomB (in addition to 3 Swarmyard), 3rd pumper (in addition to 2 Liege).

IMHO this all-round cards are great in this deck 'cause the space is very tight and more lands will be very helpfull.
For now, I found only 3 such multi-purpose stuff: SoLaS, Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy.
Any other ideas on this?

@ heroicraptor:
Ritual was in earlier versions, but soon changed to Vial. And yes, space is tight.

pcccp
07-13-2009, 03:17 AM
I took B.C`s Rat Pack to one of germanys largest monthly legacy tournament and made the 3. place (5-1). Only 40+ legacy players were playing this time because of the m10 prerelease.

This is the list i played:

MAIN[60]
---
17x swamp
3x swarmyard

4x balthor
3x creakwood liege
4x chittering rats
3x skullsnatcher
4x ravenous rats
3x felshbag marauder
4x shriekmaw
3x crypt rats

2x cabal therapy
2x thoughtseize
1x recurring nightmare

2x jitte
1x sword of light and shadow

4x aether vial

SB[15]
---
3x perish
1x nature´s ruin
3x pithing needle
1x jitte
1x crypt rats
1x creakwood liege
2x engineered plague
3x innocent blood

First match: RB Goblins (2-1)

My opponent plays some unusual cards in his goblin deck (knucklebone witch) and he doesnt know about the new rules in magic that makes mogg fanatic worse.

1. game
No first turn lackey, he terminates some of my creatures but i can bring liege back from grave with recurring nightmare. Constant tokens from liege and recurring removal is to much for him. Recurring nightmare is absolutly insane here.

2. game
First turn lacky kills me. My shirekmaw and fleshbag marauder are too slow.

3.game
I keep a hand with innocent blood and 2x engineered plage. Innocent blood kills his lackey and he scoops when the second plague hits play.

Second match: Mono Black Aggro (2-0)

1. game
My opponent start with swamp, dark ritual and ..... tada! .... avatar of discord. wtf! Avatar beats me down to 10 life. Fleshbag marauder is my solution.

2. game
I board out the shriekmaw and bring in innocent blood and the 3. jitte. Recurring nightmare is crazy in this round. He plays multiple tombstalker but i can kill all with recurring nightmare + fleshbag marauder. Later i get the hard lock with nightmare + chittering rats and he scoops.

Third match: RGB Goblins (1-2)

1. game
He starts with the perfect goblin draw. Lackey, warchief, matrone, piledriver ... dead.

2. game
Thank good for innocent blood. Its really, really necessary against goblins. I get liege + jitte on the field and my opponent gives up with remaining 15 life. :-)

3. game
1. Turn lacky but i have innocent blood. My engineered plague stops him from playing any goblins but he can bring 3 aether vials on the table. He can kill all my creature and i cant make enough pressure. Later he finds a krosan grip for the plague and vials in all his goblins and kill me in 2 rounds. One single crypt rats would have won me the game but i didnt have it.

Fourth match: Dragon Stompy (2-0)

I wanted to go to bed early the night before the tournament but decided to test the rat deck all night long. I ended up testing against dragon stompy for 2 hours and can say: you cant loose. Incredible matchup.

1.game
He starts with chalice @1 which is not that impressive. He gets pit dragon and gathan raiders on the field and my crypt rats kills both at the end of draw step (raiders is 3/3 there). He doesnt topdeck anything relevant and i win.

2.game
He mulligans and keeps a slow hand. Pit dragon attacks me for 14 damage. I get rid of him and he gives up to a liege equipped with jitte + sword of light and shadow. i wanted to establish a hard lock with nightmare + chittering rats but he casts his only spell (seething song) and thanks to the new rules he didnt get any mana burn.

Fifth match: Meervolk (2-1)

I play against a friend of mine so i know he is playing meervolk. I beat him 2 days ago and i know that creakwood liege is a thread he can not handle. Meervolk was all around me. I think 4-5 meervolk were at the top places during the tournament. Another friend of mine played 4 rounds against meervolk this tournament.

1. game
i start. Thoughtseize shows me creatures and standstill. I take standstill. My crypt rats gets rid of every creature he can bring in and i win.

2. game
Two plagues are not enough for his army of lords and a huge wake thrasher kills me. One of the advantages with the new rules is that you can tap all your lands end of turn for wake thresher wihtout taking any mana burn.

3. game
He lays needle on crypt rats but i win with a regenerating rat + jitte.

Sixth match: RGW Goyf Sligh (2-1)

1.game
He starts with kird ape and i cabel therapy his fireblast. He burns me down to six but i can disrupt his hand with multiple rats long enough to kill him.

2.game
I can destroy his jitte with mine but nactl, kird ape and lavamancer are too much. Lavamancer kills my blocker and i am dead.

3.game
He is stuck on two plateau. I can establish some rats with jitte with innocent blood and perish in my hand. I win.


Conclusions:
1. Innocent blood is necessary.
2. Recurring nightmare is nuts. Whith Shriekmaw or Shittering rats its absolutly unfair.
3. Less rats means that engineered plague @rats is less dangerous. One of my opponent didnt bring in his plague at all because he thought it would make no sense. haha
4. Liege > Bitterblossom. With less ninjas you dont need creatures with evasion and the lifeloss from bitterblossom is really bad against fast aggro decks with burnspells. Liege helped me to race the meervolk lords too.

Sideboard explanation:
No gravehate, no combohate. I think the loam, ichorid and combo matchups are really bad and it will not get much better with 3 hymn or 3 tormods crypt or whatever.

I hope to see the deck more often on tournaments from now on.

MTG-Fan
07-13-2009, 03:49 AM
Nice report, but I think you were very lucky not to run into any combo :)

Winsel
07-13-2009, 07:14 AM
Nice report, but I think you were very lucky not to run into any combo :)

In Germany Combo makes up only a really small percentage of the meta game. Even on big tournaments there are usually less then 5 combo decks. Solidarity/Hightide is nonexistant. There are usually 2-3 Ad Nauseum TES and 1-2 random Belcher decks. So actually just 2-3 combo decks because you can avoid Belcher just by winning round 1 :tongue: .

1maarten1
07-13-2009, 08:03 AM
Hey all! Im think about making the deck, its looking pretty cool and also pretty good to me :smile: But i have some (maybe a little stupid) questions. Does balthor give your rats +1/+1? or arent rats minions??

Also, how are the matchups vs Merfolk/Zoo because those are 2 commen played decks in my meta. There also is a fair ammount of thresh/ Landstill/ Coatl coutertop.dec

Im testing the deck posted by pcccp atm, and its working rly well for me on mws, but what how do you excactly sideboard, i have a little trouble with what to take out vs which decks.

Thanks!!

~Maarten

P.s Why isnt this deck Established yet? No good primer or something??

Roman Candle
07-13-2009, 08:25 AM
Does balthor give your rats +1/+1? or arent rats minions??


Rats are not Minions. The only Rat that is also a Minion is Dirty Wererat. And Dirty Wererat sucks.

pcccp
07-13-2009, 08:34 AM
Hey all! Im think about making the deck, its looking pretty cool and also pretty good to me :smile: But i have some (maybe a little stupid) questions. Does balthor give your rats +1/+1? or arent rats minions??

Also, how are the matchups vs meerfolk/zoo because those are 2 commen played decks in my meta. There also is a fair ammount of thresh/ Landstill/ Coatl coutertop.dec

Im testing the deck posted by pcccp atm, and its working rly well for me on mws, but what how do you excactly sideboard, i have a little trouble with what to take out vs which decks.

Thanks!!

~Maarten

P.s Why isnt this deck Established yet? No good primer or something??

Rats are rats and not minions. Minion is another creature type. The only minion i know that could be played in this deck is braids.

Matchups:

Meervolk/zoo: If they play jitte you have a problem. Otherwise your jitte is good against both decks. Crypt rats kills swarms of small creatures, Shriekmaw and marauder kills the bigger ones. Tokens from creakwood liege are really helpful. Meervolk cant handle constant token generation.

Thresh is the easiest matchup. They have only 8-12 threads and you have enough removal. Postboard you get perish which is devastating. Counterbalance can be a problem, try to get an aether vial ready before their counterbalance.

Landstill could be difficult. I dont think that my list can beat a good landstill player. Humility shuts the deck down completely. Bitterblossom is a good card against Landstill. If you exspect a lot of landstill you should play bitterblossom instead of liege.

Sideboard options:

Against red/black creature decks i take out balthor and bring in more liege and jitte. If you exspect a lot of graveyard hate you should although sideboard him out.

pcccp
07-13-2009, 08:38 AM
P.s Why isnt this deck Established yet? No good primer or something??

A good question.

The Grim Reaper
07-14-2009, 08:12 AM
I recently picked this deck up after I originally looked at it and thought it was a pile of crap. Boy, was I wrong. I played numerous MWS games with strong results against tier decks.

One fellow I played against complained that "everyone is playing that crappy deck" and began speaking condescendingly to me throughout the entire match. After he attempted to cheat in order to win (he put a land into play on my turn so he wouldn't be affected by chittering rats), I called him out on it. Said something along the lines of "looks like you just got beat so bad by a 'crappy' deck that you had to resort to cheating." He was playing intuition loam. Bet he had some hardcore nerd rage after that one.

Anyway, back on topic: I didn't see any discussion of people considering Top in the list. A deck with no drawing power can almost always prosper from Top. Has anyone tested this out?

Here is the list I'm currently running:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Swarmyard
17 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [JU] Balthor the Defiled
4 [BOK] Skullsnatcher
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
3 [VI] Crypt Rats
3 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
2 [EVE] Creakwood Liege
4 [IN] Ravenous Rats

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Perish

Cards I love: Chittering Rats, Jitte, Nightmare, Creakwood Liege.
Cards I am not too thrilled about: Thoughtseize, sometimes Fleshbag.

Don't get me wrong, Fleshbag is an amazing card and IS the correct choice for the deck, but often I have been stuck with 1 or 2 Fleshbags in hand and n other creatures, which is quite annoying.

Also, Stinkweed Imp looks like it could be a good inclusion in the deck, but I don't think there is any room at the 3 drop level.

I hope they decide to print a 1 drop discard rat sometime in the future - that would be amazing!

pcccp
07-14-2009, 09:17 AM
Don't get me wrong, Fleshbag is an amazing card and IS the correct choice for the deck, but often I have been stuck with 1 or 2 Fleshbags in hand and n other creatures, which is quite annoying.
Also, Stinkweed Imp looks like it could be a good inclusion in the deck, but I don't think there is any room at the 3 drop level.


Fleshbag Marauder is necessary at this moment because without him you die hardcore to tombstalker or dreadnought preboard. He is good against any other black creatures like confidant and nimble mongoose too.

I tested Stinkweed Imp and he has some advantages but although disadvantages. He doesnt kill anything like Marauder but stops your opponent from attacking. In my games Imp always eats Swords to Plowshares after some rounds stalling the board. Maybe we can try 2 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Stinkweed Imp.

I will try to play 2 Recurring Nightmare in the deck but i think you have to cut 1 Balthor then. 6 graveyard-based effects are to much and makes the deck more fragile to grave hate.

With 4 Thoughtseize maindeck you should play at last one Swords of Light and Shadow or a third Jitte.

eq.firemind
07-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Fleshbag Marauder kills Progenitus :cool:

@ Grim Reaper
I think Sword of Light and Shadow is better than 2nd Nightmare.
Reasons: it is a recursion tool too, less effective than Nightmare, but it has other advantages: protection from most popular removal, little punch and (main thing) it just wins game if you give it to Crypt Rats.

The Grim Reaper
07-14-2009, 10:58 AM
Fleshbag Marauder kills Progenitus :cool:

@ Grim Reaper
I think Sword of Light and Shadow is better than 2nd Nightmare.
Reasons: it is a recursion tool too, less effective than Nightmare, but it has other advantages: protection from most popular removal, little punch and (main thing) it just wins game if you give it to Crypt Rats.

I decided to remove 1 Balthor for 1 Sword of Light and Shadow. I had too many 4 drops and recursion effects. I dislike running "1-ofs" in a deck with zero library manipulation.

eq.firemind
07-14-2009, 12:52 PM
I decided to remove 1 Balthor for 1 Sword of Light and Shadow. I had too many 4 drops and recursion effects. I dislike running "1-ofs" in a deck with zero library manipulation.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=360521&postcount=94) is the post about why SoLaS is not a 1-of for this deck.

kilukru
07-14-2009, 01:11 PM
Just a curiosity,I know that the deck is already recuring stuff at an alarming rate and more graveyard dependency/manipulation issnt needed,but has anyone tried 1-2 reanimate in the deck, with the amount of stuff we put in both graveyard it would have a pretty good target range, neeting goyf/bob and co for a couple life?

marit
07-14-2009, 02:44 PM
I'm glad this deck is picking up, and especially glad that people like Sisyphos have been taking it to larger tournaments, and winning. First thing that should be said, this deck absolutely wrecks counterbalance thresh. With a heavy 3 curve and Vial, I've honestly gone atleast 75%, most likely better against coutnerbalance thresh, pre board. Second, the list is changing a little bit, which is good, since new things should be tested. I don't like cutting street wraith though, it's done so much for me. The swampwalk has literally won me several games, added with jitte it's just unfair, and the cycle/balthor is just nifty synergy. I also still prefer Therapy to Thoughtseize, since the deck has so many creatures, sacing a few is never a problem, and there's always Balthor. And on the land issue, when I played it in the mtgsally tourney, I was running 19. 19 is borderline, I was always on the edge with mana, and in a few games, but 1 in particular against Eldarial I got mana screwed in both the games. Luckily Eldarial was kind and after that we had a long convo about lands and functionality in decks, and he convinced me to go up a few. Since then I've been messing around with ratios, and 20 is perfect. It flows a lot better. Also, I've cut throat slitter, because he was always clunky and although a few times he was fun, he was always win more. So I cut those 3, added a land and now I have 2 free spots that im fiddling with.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [TSP] Swarmyard
17 [P3] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
4 [JU] Balthor the Defiled
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [VI] Crypt Rats
4 [IN] Ravenous Rats
4 [BOK] Skullsnatcher

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

As you can see 2 cards missing, recurring nightmare seems fun, and fleshbag marauder seems good too, I need to test it more.

B.C.
07-14-2009, 08:45 PM
I also really like Street Wraith. I was sad to cut it from my list, but I am currently trying out Liege and some other stuff. Wraith is a much more powerful card than just a free cycler. It's a Swampwalker with a big fat ass, and it enters the Battlefield pretty regularly.

I'm probably going to take this deck to a tournament this weekend. My list looks almost identical to the list The Grim Reaper just posted, but with -1 Nightmare, +1 SoLS. For my sideboard I'm thinking:

2 Innocent Blood
1 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Engineered Plague

Sisyphos
07-15-2009, 05:32 AM
Past few weeks I've gotten the payback for all the wins this deck picked up for me.

Went 1-3 in two consecutive tourneys with one win being against the mighty Mister Bye. The metagame around here seems to have changed into something much harder for Rat Pack to handle.

There's much more Affinity and straight up Aggro decks like Red Death or Zoo and less of the always nice blue based tempo decks. Some people have stolen the SoLS-tech too, leading to matches against Aggro decks that included them dropping third turn Sword every game.

And did I mention that Enchantress has popped up? Boy, if you ever want to play a game where you have absolutely no chance of doing anything, I advice testing against Enchantress. You're discard can't hit every Moat, Elephant's Grass or Solitary Confinement. Never mind Replenish-fueled recursion.

Having the first game where you hit your third land drop in round three, game two, doesn't help much either. Maybe it's finally time to cram in the twentieth land like most of you did already.

I'm also starting to like the idea of Recurring Nightmare. Too bad I sold mine six month ago. Now I'll have to look for one again....

Sigh, definitely some bad beats. :frown:

Different topic: Most of the other deck discussion threads include an updated list of the deck in the first post, especially if the deck has changed quite a bit since then, as this one has. Maybe you can edit a new list into the first post B.C.. Saves potential new players the time to sort through the last couple of pages to get a look at where the deck stands now. Maybe it's just my lazy self, but I always liked that.

pcccp
07-15-2009, 07:00 AM
I am pretty sure that Enchantress is an auto loss. There is not much you can do about that. Chains of Mephistopheles could be an answer against confinement lock but does not handle moat or elephant grass. If you want to beat Enchantress you have to be very fast or more disruptive. I think both is not possible with rat pack.

Rat pack is a deck that has some very good matchups and some very bad. It´s the same with 43 lands and other decks. This is the reason why it will never be Tier 1 but it can be a good choice when you know your meta.

Edit: I can see that Sisyphos is selling Chains of Mephistoteles. Have you ever tried it in rat pack ?

eq.firemind
07-15-2009, 07:35 AM
There is a little sneaky Thorn of Amethyst that is IMHO underplayed in Legacy. It is usefull against Combo, Burn and Enchantress. Did anyone exept me tried it in this deck?

Dystopia can also help against Enchantress and is not useless against other decks you can face.

Maveric78f
07-15-2009, 07:36 AM
What are the very good MUs ?

B.C.
07-15-2009, 11:25 AM
What are the very good MUs ?

So far the very good matchups seem to be Threshold and most other blue-based control and Dragon Stompy. Control in general. Aggro is pretty even. Combo (including Enchantress and Ichorid) is pretty poor.


Different topic: Most of the other deck discussion threads include an updated list of the deck in the first post, especially if the deck has changed quite a bit since then, as this one has. Maybe you can edit a new list into the first post B.C.. Saves potential new players the time to sort through the last couple of pages to get a look at where the deck stands now. Maybe it's just my lazy self, but I always liked that.

I'll work on this. Probably turn the first post into a decent primer. Maybe that will elevate the thread to Established.

Sisyphos
07-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Edit: I can see that Sisyphos is selling Chains of Mephistoteles. Have you ever tried it in rat pack ?

Right now, I'm rather tempted to lie in order to finally get someone to buy that :wink:

I toyed with the idea of using it as a sideboard possibility, but after some discussion with team mates and some (but not much) testing, I decided against it. Against the most common combo engine at the moment (Ad Nauseam) it's useless. Bob dodges it too. Against blue decks it can prevent Brainstorm/Standstill/Top shenanigans but in that area you don't need much help, you already have a pretty solid match against them. The rise of Lorescale Coatl decks might change that a bit, but I prefer simply killing the Coatl instead of prohibiting its growth.

Dystopia is rather pointless against Enchantress. They clutter the board with so many green and white permanents that you'll die to the upkeep cost before you ever hit all of the lock pieces.

Thorn of Amethyst, seems intriguing but can backfire a lot too. Most of the cards you want to see against combo decks are spells and not creatures. Delaying your ability to interact and disrupt may give the combo deck enough time to find a solution to the artifact or ignore it.


What are the very good MUs ?

- Merfolk: I have yet to lose a game unless I was mana screwed or they hit the perfect 4 lords by turn 4 draw.
- blue tempo decks: Most of the time you play more creature kill than they play creatures. Depending on the draw it can get close, but I'd say still quite favorable.
- random aggro decks: the amount of creature kill you have in addition to your equipment and recursion are very hard to keep up with for less well tuned decks.
- Landstill: Around here Humility is rarely played in Landstill anymore, so results may vary depending on the list you face. Against decks without Humility, the only thing you have to watch out for, are draws with multiple fast planeswalkers. Elspeth can be tough. Before boarding you have some dead cards, but you should have more than enough good stuff in your board to swap out all the creature kill for. (Btw: Crypt Rats own Mishra's)
- Goblins: First turn Lackey preboard is an autoscoop, but everything else has played out quite nicely for me. Multiple Ringleaders can provide too much card advantage to keep up with, but as long as they draw only one card a turn, it's quite easy to kill everything before it hurts you.
- Elfball: Crypt Rats. Nuff said.


Bad Stuff:
- Aggro Loam: At first sight the match up doesn't look too bad. You've got several ways of breaking up the engine, you have enough creature removal to keep Goyfs and Crushers off your back but somehow that just never happens for me. The cycling lands prevent any Chittering Rats locks and my first turn discard always reveals hands like: Firespout, Devastating Dreams, Seismic Assault and Jund Charm.... Perhaps it's simply because I'm like 0-7 against the local Loam player no matter what decks each of us plays, but it hasn't been pretty.
- Combo: Preboard half your deck is dead. Postboard you get some chance to actually interact. More often than not I managed to actually keep the games pretty close and not get completely blown out. Hitting a critical mass of discard can buy a lot of time.
- Affinity: The creatures are too fast, too big and mostly immune to your removal.
- Enchantress: The perfect opportunity to curl up and cry.

Against the tournament caliber aggro decks it's pretty even as B.C. said. The first one to get equipment online has a pretty good chance to win. (A reason why I'm reluctant to cut a SoLS for Recurring Nightmare, no life gain) RG Zoo decks are a bit easier than Red Death because your removal can fry everything they play.

I'll add some more details later on. Got to go now.

P.s: Contrary to B.C. I had decent results against Ichorid. Skullsnatcher + Extirpate out of the board keeps them slow enough for Crypt Rats to simply maul them. If you do not get blown out completely in the first two turns, I'd put my money on Rats to win the game.

edit: Added some stuff.

B.C.
07-16-2009, 03:13 PM
First post has been modified into a primer. Any thoughts/suggestions/modifications please let me know.

pcccp
07-19-2009, 04:10 AM
I am playtesting the rat pack against all kind of matchups now and i will post the results when its done.
First impression: this deck dies hardcore to combo (we all know that) but to goyf sligh / Zoo too. Preboard you dont get more then 30-40%. They play more then enough burn spells to kill your guys and to outrace you in damage. Lavamancer is absolutly devastating. Balthor is useless most of the time (he gets burned all day and you dont want to bring back lavamancer with him). Your only hope is to find a jitte. If they play Sulfuric Vortex in the SB its getting really worse.
So i am thinking how to make the matchup better. Obviously life gain from more Jitte or Swords but if you look at the mana curve of both decks chalice@1 could be more thrilling. You could bring it in for thoughtseize which is a bad card anyway against heavy burn decks.
I know that Chalice of the Void was discussed earlier and dismissed but at this point i do not know what else would make the matchup better. Any sugestions ?

Sisyphos
07-19-2009, 05:14 AM
First post has been modified into a primer. Any thoughts/suggestions/modifications please let me know.

Looks very nice. Thx for the work.



First impression: this deck dies hardcore to combo (we all know that) but to goyf sligh / Zoo too. Preboard you dont get more then 30-40%. They play more then enough burn spells to kill your guys and to outrace you in damage. Lavamancer is absolutly devastating. Balthor is useless most of the time (he gets burned all day and you dont want to bring back lavamancer with him). Your only hope is to find a jitte. If they play Sulfuric Vortex in the SB its getting really worse.
So i am thinking how to make the matchup better. Obviously life gain from more Jitte or Swords but if you look at the mana curve of both decks chalice@1 could be more thrilling. You could bring it in for thoughtseize which is a bad card anyway against heavy burn decks.
I know that Chalice of the Void was discussed earlier and dismissed but at this point i do not know what else would make the matchup better. Any sugestions ?

While I agree that Goyf Sligh can be tough and you most definitely don't want to face it every round, it's no where near as hard as combo in my experience.
Vial is perhaps as important against Sligh as it is against Landstill or Threshhold. Without it, you won't have the time to cast and equip or cast and use Balthor without giving them several turns worth of burn.
As for Balthor failing against them, nope, he never did that for me. In particular Lavamancer seems hardly a thread. Yesterday my opponent had a 6/7 Tarmogoyf on the board compared to my assortment of Swamps. My topdecked Balthor gave him three dead Lavamancers. I got back 2 Shriekmaws, 2 Fleshbag Marauders and one Crypt Rats alongside several Ravenous and Chittering Rats. Seems like a fair deal to me. Activating Balthor should always result in the immediate death of all the creatures your opponent will ever get back. I mean you had the whole game to stock your graveyard and your opponents burn will increase the amount of Balthor targets enormously.

The search for an answer is indeed hard and I would probably include some in my board if something convinces me, but Chalice once again fails to do that. It disables your best card in the match, Aether Vial, and in every postboard game my opponent maxed out on the number of Krosan Grips and Tin-Street Hooligans to combat equipment, Bitterblossom and Vial. Using a hate card that dies to the hate cards they already play heavily, meh.

Did you use a list with Recurring Nightmare instead of the fourth equipment in your testing? Their burn renders Nightmare nearly dead, equipment on the other hand is simply bonkers. Perhaps including a card, that can result in a hard lock against the controlish decks you already like, whilst weakening your game against aggro decks you hate, might not be that good after all.

DireLemming
07-19-2009, 05:23 AM
I am playtesting the rat pack against all kind of matchups now and i will post the results when its done.
First impression: this deck dies hardcore to combo (we all know that) but to goyf sligh / Zoo too. Preboard you dont get more then 30-40%. They play more then enough burn spells to kill your guys and to outrace you in damage. Lavamancer is absolutly devastating. Balthor is useless most of the time (he gets burned all day and you dont want to bring back lavamancer with him). Your only hope is to find a jitte. If they play Sulfuric Vortex in the SB its getting really worse.
So i am thinking how to make the matchup better. Obviously life gain from more Jitte or Swords but if you look at the mana curve of both decks chalice@1 could be more thrilling. You could bring it in for thoughtseize which is a bad card anyway against heavy burn decks.
I know that Chalice of the Void was discussed earlier and dismissed but at this point i do not know what else would make the matchup better. Any sugestions ?

Some [janky] ideas I've been testing for Zoo the matchup:

Circle of Affliction - slow. Forces you into the role of beatdown which goes against the grain (at least the way I play the deck).

Plunge into Darkness - a complementary strategy at best. Could work if the main strategy were some sort of combo/lock.

Profane Command - expensive but can generate massive card advantage (something Zoo has trouble with).

Spinning Darkness - 3 damage is enough to kill anything Zoo runs but goyf. The (alt.) cost makes it somewhat unreliable though. Second best after Chalice.

Trinisphere - situational. Can completely lock them out or is largely irrelevant (too late).

Wasteland (as additional lands in SB, not replacements) and/or Sinkhole - works well with Trinisphere, helps your rats eat cats and apes.

Chalice - depends on the Zoo build. Probably the best of the bunch.

Goblin Snowman
07-19-2009, 10:03 AM
Why is there no Oversold Cemetery somewhere between either main or board? It seems like it would give additional use against some of the decks harder MUs (such as Goyf-Sligh or Aggro-Loam) by giving you a onesided Abyss or whatever you might need. It might be slower, but it seems like a powerful effect that would be easy to abuse here.

Also, has anyone considered Keeper of the Dead? For reference;

Card type: Creature

Creature type: Human Wizard

Power/Toughness:1/2

Casting cost: BB

Oracle text: B, Tap: Destroy target nonblack creature controlled by an opponent with at least two fewer creature cards in his or her graveyard than you.

With how many creatures you have in your GY, would the ability find a home? Or is it superfluous with how much removal you already have in the deck? Just some thoughts that went through my head on looking at the decklist.

pcccp
07-19-2009, 11:18 AM
None of these cards have ever been played in any (competetive) legacy deck before and with good reason i think.
Oversold Cemetry is useless 90% of the time and when you have 4 cards in your grave you always want balthor. Recurring Nightmare doesnt need any creature in the grave and thats the reason why its better.

If you want to build a list around Oversold Cemetry you need at last a few dredge cards to fill the grave (stinkweed imp).

Reaver027
07-19-2009, 12:05 PM
Hey i just picked up the deck to run it in a bigger tournament next weekend.
First i wanted to run Stompy Soldiers but since i was not able to get all the cards i decided to run Rats. Wanted to run something that was not present in my meta ,so i can catch the other players off guard.

My list looks nearly the same as the one in the opening post.
-1 Balthor the Defiled
-1 Swamp
+1 Creakwood Liege
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Only 3 Balthor because i think that 5 recurring cards should be enough and the 3rd Creakwood offers a good punch and tokens.
Urborg opens me up a little more to Wasteland but i am willing to take that risk.

I would like to ask for some sideboard suggestions.
I expect to face a lot of Thresh and Merfolk so Rats seems to be a good choice overall.

Other Archetypes i expect will be Goblins, Elfs, Storm Combos (not that many) and perhaps a few Land/Dreadstill, Survival, Ichorid and the random Burn and Affinity deck.

So my Sideboard looks liks this at the moment:
3-4x Engineered Plague (vs Tribal)
0-1x Perish (vs Green)
3x Thorn of Amethyst (vs Combo/Burn)
3x Pithing Needle (vs Lands/Survival)
3x Innocent Blood (vs Goblins/Affinity)
2x Tormod's Crypt (vs Ichorid)

I am not sure if i should run 3 Plagues and 1 Perish or 4 plagues, since i expect Tribal overall to have a strong present at that tournament.
Tormod's Crypt seems to be a little week.
And i am not sure about the Thorn. Chalice seems way stronger but the Thorn does not kill our Vial.

Do you got any other better suggestions what to sideboard for the meta i am expecting ?
And can you help me a little on what to board out vs Specific decks ?

Any help is appreciated.

Roman Candle
07-19-2009, 01:24 PM
Recurring Nightmare doesnt need any creature in the grave and thats the reason why its better.

You realize that you can't take the creature you sacrificed back, right?

pcccp
07-19-2009, 02:12 PM
you are right. Nobody has ever noticed that before in my last games.... lucky for me i guess.

Reaver027
07-25-2009, 05:27 PM
After getting destroyed by Combo, outraced by Zoo and was unlucky against Canadian Thresh today, i decided to change my deck a little.

- Balthor just wins games and if i had one in game 3 against Canadian Thresh i would have won. So i will increase him back to 4. I think i will cut Skullsnatcher or a Ravenous Rats for him. -1 Skullsnatcher / -1 Ravenous Rats, +1 Balthor.

- Since i dont see how sideboarding really helps us with Combo i just gave up on it and will no longer try to improve the MU by spending Sideboard slots to it.
I would rather scoop to a Combo player than try to beat him (Yes i am really upset about Combo at the moment. The most unfun part of the Game.).
Those Sideboard slots will be filled to improve the Zoo MU. Zoo can just put way too many creatures on the board so more removal is needed. -3 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Innocent Blood, +1 Fleshbag Marauder, +1 Crypt Rats.

- With close to no Graveyard based decks around in my meta i will stop spending Sideboard slots to this MU as well. To improve the overall MU against decks with green creatures (and that seems to be all decks) i will add Perish instead. -3 Extirpate, +3 Perish.

This is how the deck will look after all the changes i listed above:

Lands (20)
16 Swamp
3 Swarmyard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1-Drops (8)
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize

2-Drops (13)
4/3 Ravenous Rats
4 Shriekmaw
3/4 Skullsnatcher
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3-Drops (12)
4 Chittering Rats
3 Crypt Rats
3 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4-Drops (7)
4 Balthor the Defiled
3 Creakwood Liege

Sideboard (15)
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
3 Pithing Needle
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Crypt Rats

Any thoughts ?
I still need help with sideboarding. Am really bad at it. So any help on that matter would be great.

pcccp
07-27-2009, 06:56 AM
sideboard: -1 fleshbag marauder / + 1 Umezawa`s Jitte

Jitte is your weapon against Goyf Sligh / Zoo and is your only "removal" for an opponents Jitte.

Reaver027
07-27-2009, 04:38 PM
sideboard: -1 fleshbag marauder / + 1 Umezawa`s Jitte

Jitte is your weapon against Goyf Sligh / Zoo and is your only "removal" for an opponents Jitte.

Once i can get hold of a third Jitte i will change the Sideboard again. But until then i have to run something esle i am afraid. Jitte is not exactly cheap :frown:

Sisyphos
10-17-2009, 04:13 PM
Bit quiet in here.

Post Zendikar I have been experimenting a bit with Vampire Nighthawk instead of Fleshbag Marauder.
The testing is still pretty limited, but so far he has been very good. Deathtouch lets him act as another removal spell (even instantly with Aether Vial), Lifelink is also very welcome in a more and more aggro-centric meta and of course he gets ridiculous when picking up an equipment. Flying allows you to reach previously hard to kill stuff like Tombstalker or Hypnotic Specter.

I lent my deck to a friend for a tournament today and while he finished rather badly (amongst other things, he got paired against both storm combo decks in the tournament), he agreed that the Nighthawks were good whenever he drew them and that they worked very well in the shell of the deck.

Cidolfus
10-19-2009, 12:36 PM
If I was going to replace Fleshbag Marauder, I would replace him with Gatekeeper of Malakir instead of Vampire Nighthawk.

Reaver027
10-19-2009, 03:03 PM
If I was going to replace Fleshbag Marauder, I would replace him with Gatekeeper of Malakir instead of Vampire Nighthawk.

Now that makes no sense at all in this deck. Fleshbag can hit a second creature when it gets back from the grave. Gatekeeper can't. It will just be a 2/2 vanilla. Nighthawk at least got a few good abilitys when it gets back from the grave.
In this deck the Gatekeeper is just not good enough.

Might give Nighthawk a try but i am not so sure about it.

Sisyphos
10-19-2009, 03:05 PM
Gatekeeper might be a strictly better version of Fleshbag in nearly every other deck, but in here, I've found it to be subpar.

To get any effect out of it, you have to cast it for BBB. Triple black can take a couple of turns to accomplish.
But the worst aspect of Gatekeeper is definitely that it has absolutely no synergy with the two engines of the deck: Vial and Balthor. It is a one-shot that cannot be cheated into play.

edit: Beat to the point by Reaver :wink:

Cidolfus
10-20-2009, 12:25 AM
Absolutely. Replacing Fleshbag with any of the new Zendikar cards isn't a good idea.

Props to the creator of this deck, by the way. I am having a blast with it.

marit
11-16-2009, 03:13 PM
So to necro this thread, I took this deck to the Vestal tourney on Saturday. I wound up going 4-3-1, probably due to my own mistakes, but other than that the deck performed great. I didn't take notes, so I don't remember many specific match details, but here were my matchups:
1. Win against Ugwr Balance
2. Win against Geddon Stax
3. Draw against Bant Survival
4. Loss against Hexmage Combo
5. Loss against Merfolk
6. Win against Ichorid
7. Loss against Bant Countertop
8. Win against Bgw Goodstuff

Here's my list:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Swarmyard
15 [P3] Swamp (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [JU] Balthor the Defiled
4 [DS] Chittering Rats
4 [BOK] Skullsnatcher
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [VI] Crypt Rats
4 [IN] Ravenous Rats
2 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap

Now for the general observations: Freakish777 convinced me to add the stronghold, which I only drew once against ichorid, but I'm going to keep it. Crypt Rats was the MVP, I don't know why I wasn't running 4, they're just so stupid. Balthor was amazing all day, I loved the looks on my opponent's face when I would vial him in, I even raced a progenitis (eot vial, activate, get 3 street wraith, crypt rats and 2 shriekmaw). On that point, Street Wraith is amazing, he is definintely a keeper. And fleshbag marauders were awful, I would have much rather had targeted removal. And changes to the MD, I would go -2 Marauders, +1 Crypt Rats, +1 Recurring Nightmare. As for the SB, Engineered Plague is necessary, it would help so much,

4 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Exirpate

That's what I would play next time.

Moczoc
11-16-2009, 04:40 PM
Why not Gatekeeper of Malakir? He can be played with Vial 2 and sticks on the board (or can be sacced into a CT)

AlterEgo
11-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Why not Gatekeeper of Malakir? He can be played with Vial 2 and sticks on the board (or can be sacced into a CT)

'cause you can't kick it if you vial it.

Sisyphos
11-17-2009, 09:17 AM
4 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Exirpate


Do you really need 11 cards to deal with opponents graveyards after boarding? The Skullsnatchers can be too slow against Dredge, I agree, but it still seems a bit excessive.

On the same note, why the whole playset of Plagues? You say that it is necessary but looking at the decks you played against, they are mostly CB-lists, not a match-up I'd bring in Plagues. Most tribal decks have problems against Crypt Rats. You have already included the fourth one maindeck, when I look at the match-ups you mentioned, I see one tribal deck. That seems like a very small percentage of the field or did you simply not get paired against the ones being played?
Even if the later is true, this deck does not play Dark Ritual, so Plague gets online turn three at best. Still does not solve first turn Lackey. Against Elves or Merfolk Plague will at that point most likely simply nullify one of their Lords but will not have any major effect on its own.
I know that Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy can catch Lackey if you're on the play but before I included Innocent Blood, I still lost some games after landing a first turn discard spell, finding they don't have any Lackeys, felling good and losing to their topdecked Lackey.

Also why no Pithing Needles? Shutting of Survival, Hexmage, EE, Deed, Top, planeswalkers and countless other stuff for the lowly price of 3 slots, looks like one of the best deals available.

As for the maindeck, most people play two token producers, mostly Liege or Bitterblossom. Did you consider some and if you did, what were your reasons to cut them? To shamelessly plug my personal favorite, Bitterblossom, might I mention that it is superb at blocking Marit Lage all day long?

marit
11-17-2009, 12:50 PM
Do you really need 11 cards to deal with opponents graveyards after boarding? The Skullsnatchers can be too slow against Dredge, I agree, but it still seems a bit excessive.

On the same note, why the whole playset of Plagues? You say that it is necessary but looking at the decks you played against, they are mostly CB-lists, not a match-up I'd bring in Plagues. Most tribal decks have problems against Crypt Rats. You have already included the fourth one maindeck, when I look at the match-ups you mentioned, I see one tribal deck. That seems like a very small percentage of the field or did you simply not get paired against the ones being played?
Even if the later is true, this deck does not play Dark Ritual, so Plague gets online turn three at best. Still does not solve first turn Lackey. Against Elves or Merfolk Plague will at that point most likely simply nullify one of their Lords but will not have any major effect on its own.
I know that Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy can catch Lackey if you're on the play but before I included Innocent Blood, I still lost some games after landing a first turn discard spell, finding they don't have any Lackeys, felling good and losing to their topdecked Lackey.

Also why no Pithing Needles? Shutting of Survival, Hexmage, EE, Deed, Top, planeswalkers and countless other stuff for the lowly price of 3 slots, looks like one of the best deals available.

As for the maindeck, most people play two token producers, mostly Liege or Bitterblossom. Did you consider some and if you did, what were your reasons to cut them? To shamelessly plug my personal favorite, Bitterblossom, might I mention that it is superb at blocking Marit Lage all day long?

I have all the yard hate because Ichorid is an awful matchup, even after 3 ravenous traps in G3 I still shouldn't have won, luckily he made several play errors that let me take the game. And Merfolk is a very popular deck, I was lucky enough to avoid it most of the time, and from what I can see our only out against merfolk is to have a crypt rats, and they have no removal (lots of merfolk decks splash white for STP now). I don't want a match to be e on me drawing 1 of 4 cards in my deck, which is why the plagues would help. Combined with the removal, it should be enough to stall Merfolk until I can draw a Crypt Rats. It also deals with Hexmage combo, naming vampire. And from my experience, goblins isn't an easy matchup, even if they don't go turn 1 lackey. Ring Leaders are often times too much card advantage to handle, and plague would slow them down too.

Needle sounds pretty good, the problem is what to cut. I'm gonna have to test against dredge more to see if all the slots are needed, but they seem to be. And I was never a fan of token generators in this deck, because they seem out of place. When I was doing most successful at Vestal was when I was playing my discard rats, ninjutsu-ing, then replaying them, chumping when I needed to, then big balthor won it for me. I'd rather just play creatures like Street Wraith in that spot.

Sisyphos
11-17-2009, 04:37 PM
I agree that Goblins isn't a complete cakewalk if they don't get Lackey online. The problem with your list in my opinion is, that Goblins is an autoloss if they do get Lackey online. That's the thing that bugs me. Plague does slow them down and keeps the card advantage from Ringleaders in check if you live long enough for it to make a difference.

Ichorid has a good chance of running all over you and turning you into a big bloody pulp, agreed. Some hate is needed, I won't argue with that. I don't know your metagame so perhaps more than 40% of the field were Ichorid, but filling half your board with cards against one deck that have next to no application against different decks, that's just a bit out of proportion for the amount of Ichorid I have seen played on average in a tournament. I mean ok, sometimes metagames look like that. Lorwyn standard where half the field was playing Faeries maybe? But on average, unless the deck has one horror match-up and simply destroys everything else, I prefer diversity.

Crypt Rats is not required to win against Merfolk. It's required to turn the game into a blowout. I've a pretty positive record against it, winning several games after they resolved a Pithing Needle on Crypt Rats. Merfolk has a hard time winning against a combination of creature removal and equipment. They have very few ways of generating card advantage themselves compared to other aggressive decks, no Ringleaders, no Glimpse of Nature, no pure draw spells. Even Ravenous Rats can be problematic in multiples. The only things I'm afraid of is their complete nuts draw resulting in 4-5 lords by turn 4 or mana screw. With everything else, I like my chances.

marit
11-17-2009, 04:58 PM
I agree that Goblins isn't a complete cakewalk if they don't get Lackey online. The problem with your list in my opinion is, that Goblins is an autoloss if they do get Lackey online. That's the thing that bugs me. Plague does slow them down and keeps the card advantage from Ringleaders in check if you live long enough for it to make a difference.

Ichorid has a good chance of running all over you and turning you into a big bloody pulp, agreed. Some hate is needed, I won't argue with that. I don't know your metagame so perhaps more than 40% of the field were Ichorid, but filling half your board with cards against one deck that have next to no application against different decks, that's just a bit out of proportion for the amount of Ichorid I have seen played on average in a tournament. I mean ok, sometimes metagames look like that. Lorwyn standard where half the field was playing Faeries maybe? But on average, unless the deck has one horror match-up and simply destroys everything else, I prefer diversity.

Crypt Rats is not required to win against Merfolk. It's required to turn the game into a blowout. I've a pretty positive record against it, winning several games after they resolved a Pithing Needle on Crypt Rats. Merfolk has a hard time winning against a combination of creature removal and equipment. They have very few ways of generating card advantage themselves compared to other aggressive decks, no Ringleaders, no Glimpse of Nature, no pure draw spells. Even Ravenous Rats can be problematic in multiples. The only things I'm afraid of is their complete nuts draw resulting in 4-5 lords by turn 4 or mana screw. With everything else, I like my chances.

I see your points, I probably have too much graveyard hate, but what would I replace it with? Rats is more like a meta game deck, it has high and low percentage matchups, and not very even ones. What're the changes you would reccomend then for goblins? Just innocent bloods in the SB?

Sisyphos
11-18-2009, 06:54 AM
I think the sample sideboard listed by B.C. in the opening post is a very good starting point.

It basically swaps the Ravenous Traps and two Plagues for 3 Needles and 3 Innocent Blood/Darkblast. I'd probably cut the Darkblast and include the third Innocent Blood though. Cutting Marauder from the deck will leave you more vulnerable to stuff like Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Progenitus and Marit Lage, so I think Blood will prove more valuable.

Considering which graveyard hate to cut, Ravenous Trap is of course the more powerful against Ichorid, but it is less efficient for getting rid of certain problem cards against other decks. Extirpating EE, Elspeth or Loam gets rid of a lot of headaches.

The choice of discard spell(s) is debatable. Thoughtseize is very good, Hymn is pretty cool too. B.C. has moved the Thoughtseizes main, because he missed with Cabal Therapy too much, certainly one way of solving the discussion. As you might have noticed, I don't like Plague very much, so I usually cut it completely, giving me another two slots. That gives me enough room to run a mix of Thuoghtseize and Hymn while keeping Cabal Therapy main but from time to time I have played only Hymn or only Thoughtseize, using the open slots for experiments or specific cards for a certain metagame, and that worked well too, so pick whatever you feel more comfortable with.

Moczoc
11-19-2009, 12:22 PM
'cause you can't kick it if you vial it.

Oh, that is good to know, I was about to build another deck with that technique :eek:

Then I suggest Bone Shredder for the Fleshbag Maurauder Slot, same cmc, targeting, flying (-> Jitte!)

Mark Sun
01-19-2010, 05:10 AM
Sorry for the necro, but just wondering: is anyone still playing this deck? I've recently gotten most of the cards to assemble it, and it's been fun to play so far.

The primer is great, but I'm nervous as to how it would fare in the current Legacy environment, with Lands, Enchantress, and Combo. Perhaps a tuned SB could help?

Sisyphos
01-19-2010, 04:44 PM
Out of those three decks, two can be addressed by stocking up on sideboard hate.

Mindbreak Trap is a new toy to fight combo for this deck. Combined with a mixture of Hymn, Thoughtseize and Therapy, you'd have a fighting chance.

Increasing your graveyard hate against Lands is also pretty easy. Enchantress on the other hand will always be the basic definition of an auto-loss for the deck. The only cards in black that could hate that strategy are so bad that they will probably make the match-up even worse, if that's possible.

When I played the deck a lot, my metagame consisted of a lot of Merfolk and Thresh stuff. That's what you want to see. The rise of GoyfSligh, AggroLoam and Eva Green decks was what pushed me away from Rats. While I can deal with the occasional auto loss, fighting those and a lot of coin flips wasn't my cup of tea.

Apart from the shift in archetypes, there's also the increase in stuff like Qasali Pridemage and planeswalkers in general. Both can be tough if they are backed up by anything. (I won't even mention Iona in BantSurvival or Dredge)

B.C.
01-19-2010, 05:43 PM
Stax is also pretty much an auto-loss, and black aggro can seriously suck. The bottom line is that the deck is a lot of fun to play, but will never be a top tier deck because it is a bit of a glass cannon. It does happen to have decent matchups with many of the top decks, though, so it can potentially win tournaments depending on matchups.

Mark Sun
01-22-2010, 01:03 AM
@ Sisyphos: Yikes, that pretty much sounds like the last Meandeck Open (bigger tourney around where I'm from) metagame breakdown, LOL. I guess I'll tuck this deck away for a special time, or when I'm bored. Merfolk should be rising in popularity with the recent 5K's, but you never really know. The one thing I hate about :b: in general is that you have to be so proactive in everything (discard), and you have no reactive methods to deal with stuff on the board in the form of Enchantments.

@ B.C.: As mentioned above, I'll probably pull this deck out when I'm really bored. The fact that it can still have a fighting chance against the popular decks makes it a viable option still, imo. Plus, it's unique and people are like, "seriously, dude? Ravenous Rats? <S:PL>." Wonderful stuff. Too bad they don't quit like that in real life :eek:


I had this weird urge to add 4x Entomb/Reanimator targets (Iona mainly) & bump Recurring Nightmare to MD 2x, but that didn't go so hot.

slylie
02-24-2010, 09:16 AM
Necro time!

Equipment - Basilisk Collar

http://www.worldwake.co.uk/images/products/Basilisk-Collar.jpg

Do I have to mention how redic this is strapped to a crypt rat?

edit: Incase I do...

1. He gets deathtouch, which means you can just x=1 and kill everything.
2. He gets lifelink, which means you gain A LOT of life. I.e. If there are 5 creatures on the board, and you X for 4, you gain 28 life.

:tongue:

B.C.
02-27-2010, 02:56 PM
That is pretty sexy. Nice catch.

Iranon
02-27-2010, 05:13 PM
Oh dear :)

This reminds me of times when I thought Protection-from-Black weenies, Darkest Hour and Spirit Linked Crypt Rats were a good concept. Sweet!

Oibade
03-07-2010, 06:59 AM
I support the inclusion of Basilisk Collar. And just a few thoughts...

I find it could be useful the inclusion of white for Stoneforge Mystic, being able to fetch for useful equipments.
Also, I believe it could be interesting the interaction between Basilisk Collar and...

Plague Spitter :2: :b:

Creature - Horror 2/2
At the beginning of your upkeep, Plague Spitter deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

When Plague Spitter is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, Plague Spitter deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

Meaning: play/vial Plague Spitter, equip Basilisk Collar = Reset.

Atwa
03-07-2010, 07:23 AM
I support the inclusion of Basilisk Collar. And just a few thoughts...

I find it could be useful the inclusion of white for Stoneforge Mystic, being able to fetch for useful equipments.
Also, I believe it could be interesting the interaction between Basilisk Collar and...

Plague Spitter :2: :b:

Creature - Horror 2/2
At the beginning of your upkeep, Plague Spitter deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

When Plague Spitter is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, Plague Spitter deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

Meaning: play/vial Plague Spitter, equip Basilisk Collar = Reset.

Wouldn't Crypt Rats be simply better? Plaguesplitter gives your opponent a whole turn to react after you equip him with the Collar, a single StP or Path can ruin your 5 mana investment. Crypt Rats will always be dangerous, and you can wait for a little while until you feel the time is right to blow the board. Besides, the fact you can chose yourself how much life you want to gain is invaluable.

A few years back I would have suggested Plaguesplitter, since the meta was better for it then as a stand alone card (more goblins, Confidants, Soltari Priests, etc), but in todays meta, Crypt Rats is the better card to play.

eq.firemind
04-09-2010, 03:55 AM
Basilisk Collar looks extremely good here 'cause it's a 1-drop and I often felt that the deck needs more 1-drops and 'cause Deathtouch + Regenerate is sexy tech. Also, unlike everyone else here, I'm not very impressed with Balthor the Defiled. The main reason is that he needs plenty of prepairings to be as effective as 4-mana card sould be in Legacy. As for me, Recurring Nightmare just does the same job in reuse your creatures. The other reason is lack of beefy creatures (and Collar wants some fat). Also, as I counted through my decklist, there are 10+ natural ways to remove my own creature from battlefield. With all this in mind, I want to try this version of the deck:

Abyssal Swarm

MANA (20)
16 Swamp
4 Swarmyard

1-DROPS (12)
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Basilisk Collar
2-DROPS (12)
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Shriekmaw
3-DROPS (12)
4 Chittering Rats
3 Crypt Rats
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Recurring Nightmare
4-DROPS (4)
4 Abyssal Persecutor

SIDEBOARD
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Innocent Blood
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus

Abyssal Persecutor is big, evasive and is easy to get rid off with Fleshbags, Snatchers, Therapies and Nightmares.
Sadistic Sacrament is the win against ANT and Enchantress 'cause it removes all their winconditions. But IDK, maybe just forget about Combo and Enchantress? Needs some tests...
Faerie Macabre is GY hate of choice 'cause it beats Reanimator.
Innocent Blood has new use: killing your Persecutor after he kills an opponent.
Any thoughts?

B.C.
04-15-2010, 08:26 PM
Cadaver Imp
1BB
Creature - Imp
Flying
When Cadaver Imp enters the battlefield, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
1/1

Just sayin'.

Pastorofmuppets
04-15-2010, 08:34 PM
Umm, doesn't Swarmyard have some good implications outside of black? I mean, there's a freakin' Deathtouch-Reach spider for 1G in M10.

slylie
04-18-2010, 02:34 PM
I like this card as well. I always thought gravedigger would be playable at 3 mana, and the flying is nice.

I especially like it in my build with street wraith, and ninja-ing him back and playing again to draw more cards. (short the loss of life)

B.C.
04-19-2010, 01:38 PM
My current list (untested):

3 Swarmyard
17 Swamp

4 Shriekmaw
4 Balthor the Defiled
3 Skullsnatcher
4 Chittering Rats
4 Crypt Rats
3 Cadaver Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Ravenous Rats

3 Basilisk Collar
4 AEther Vial
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Bojuka Bog

Croesus
04-21-2010, 05:08 PM
Browsing around for some help tuning my Crypt Rats/Basilisk Collar Deck to become Legacy-competitive and I think I have some pointers for you
I run quite a different build, no Balthor or CIP-effects, but it's extremly stable in my local (very limited) meta.

Rat in a Collar

15 Swamps
4 Bojuka Bog
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Bloodghast
4 Crypt Rats
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Stillmoon Cavalier

4 Basilisk Collar
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dash Hopes
2 Night Dealings
4 Unearth

SB:
3 Nevinyrral's Disk - Good ol' Disk
1 Perish
2 Blood Seeker
4 Extirpate
1 Sudden Spoiling (vs progenitus & darksteel colussus)
+4 random junk cards to fill out


Crypt Rats + Collar = pwnage. Every single time...
Stillmoon Cavalier + Collar: Blocks and kills everything due to first strike, flying & deathtouch, ProBlack - survives Crypt rats, ProWhite - survives StP, PtE, O-ring, etc... Simply Amazing
Night Dealings: Yes, I know it's heavy, but having some capability to tutor an answer to a late-game problem is a good thing
Dash Hopes: Counterspell or Lava Axe - I like both scenarios
Bojuka Bog: It seems like every deck in my meta uses GY as a ressource
The Swarmyards have been mailed, and I'm checking my mailbox daily (or... like 2-3 times a day)

I think I'll start by looking into some Sword of Light and Shadow, Recurring Nightmare, Creakwood Liege, Pithing Needle, AEther Vial as well as Engineered Plague & Gate to Phyrexia for SB. Oh, and Bloodchief Ascension

Thanks for the good thread and all the inspiration- now I have something to playtest for the coming months... Weee!:smile: (like a 4-year-old on a set of swings)

slylie
04-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Browsing around for some help tuning my Crypt Rats/Basilisk Collar Deck to become Legacy-competitive and I think I have some pointers for you
I run quite a different build, no Balthor or CIP-effects, but it's extremly stable in my local (very limited) meta.

Rat in a Collar

15 Swamps
4 Bojuka Bog
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Bloodghast
4 Crypt Rats
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Stillmoon Cavalier

4 Basilisk Collar
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dash Hopes
2 Night Dealings
4 Unearth

SB:
3 Nevinyrral's Disk - Good ol' Disk
1 Perish
2 Blood Seeker
4 Extirpate
1 Sudden Spoiling (vs progenitus & darksteel colussus)
+4 random junk cards to fill out


Crypt Rats + Collar = pwnage. Every single time...
Stillmoon Cavalier + Collar: Blocks and kills everything due to first strike, flying & deathtouch, ProBlack - survives Crypt rats, ProWhite - survives StP, PtE, O-ring, etc... Simply Amazing
Night Dealings: Yes, I know it's heavy, but having some capability to tutor an answer to a late-game problem is a good thing
Dash Hopes: Counterspell or Lava Axe - I like both scenarios
Bojuka Bog: It seems like every deck in my meta uses GY as a ressource
The Swarmyards have been mailed, and I'm checking my mailbox daily (or... like 2-3 times a day)

I think I'll start by looking into some Sword of Light and Shadow, Recurring Nightmare, Creakwood Liege, Pithing Needle, AEther Vial as well as Engineered Plague & Gate to Phyrexia for SB. Oh, and Bloodchief Ascension

Thanks for the good thread and all the inspiration- now I have something to playtest for the coming months... Weee!:smile: (like a 4-year-old on a set of swings)

This is an entire different concept. The Rat Pack abuses CiP effects with Ninja abilities to create overwhelming card advantage. Your deck is like the Gate with a bunch of horrible cards thrown in. Night dealings? come on. Gotta be a joke.

slylie
04-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Browsing around for some help tuning my Crypt Rats/Basilisk Collar Deck to become Legacy-competitive and I think I have some pointers for you
I run quite a different build, no Balthor or CIP-effects, but it's extremly stable in my local (very limited) meta.

Rat in a Collar

15 Swamps
4 Bojuka Bog
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Bloodghast
4 Crypt Rats
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Stillmoon Cavalier

4 Basilisk Collar
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dash Hopes
2 Night Dealings
4 Unearth

SB:
3 Nevinyrral's Disk - Good ol' Disk
1 Perish
2 Blood Seeker
4 Extirpate
1 Sudden Spoiling (vs progenitus & darksteel colussus)
+4 random junk cards to fill out


Crypt Rats + Collar = pwnage. Every single time...
Stillmoon Cavalier + Collar: Blocks and kills everything due to first strike, flying & deathtouch, ProBlack - survives Crypt rats, ProWhite - survives StP, PtE, O-ring, etc... Simply Amazing
Night Dealings: Yes, I know it's heavy, but having some capability to tutor an answer to a late-game problem is a good thing
Dash Hopes: Counterspell or Lava Axe - I like both scenarios
Bojuka Bog: It seems like every deck in my meta uses GY as a ressource
The Swarmyards have been mailed, and I'm checking my mailbox daily (or... like 2-3 times a day)

I think I'll start by looking into some Sword of Light and Shadow, Recurring Nightmare, Creakwood Liege, Pithing Needle, AEther Vial as well as Engineered Plague & Gate to Phyrexia for SB. Oh, and Bloodchief Ascension

Thanks for the good thread and all the inspiration- now I have something to playtest for the coming months... Weee!:smile: (like a 4-year-old on a set of swings)

This is an entire different concept. The Rat Pack abuses CiP effects with Ninja abilities to create overwhelming card advantage. Your deck is like the Gate with a bunch of horrible cards thrown in. Night dealings? come on. Gotta be a joke.

B.C.
04-21-2010, 09:58 PM
While I agree that your deck is very different from The Rat Pack, to the point of being a completely different deck, I do commend you for at least recognizing the raw awesomeness of the Rat-Collar combo. Without trying to overhaul your deck completely, I would suggest that you include Aether Vial and some discard spell (I like Thoughtseize, but Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Hymn to Tourach are also good). Night Dealings is really overcosted and will probably never be a factor in a serious Legacy game. Dash Hopes will always be the opposite of what you want it to be, plus then you have to sit on open mana, while this deck just wants to tap out for dudes every turn. I've got nothin' against Unearth, it's a great card. Stillmoon Cavalier is also a little mana hog. He has some ok abilities, but I think I'd rather just have Shriekmaw. Recurring Nightmare is great, but probably better with CIP guys, SoLS and Liege are ok, but are not in my deck currently.

Welcome to The Source.

ykpon
04-22-2010, 04:10 AM
I've been toying with this deck recenly and I'd like to add my two cents. I started with a traditional build and never wished to undo two of all changes I've tried.
The first one is some fetchlands and Scrublands to afford running Stoneforge Mystic. It isn't black and isn't a rat but it's awesome anyway since you probably don't like getting multiple Collars and I don't think oldschool equipment became worse. I'd run 2-3 Mystics (don't forget it can be vialed easily too) + 1 Collar + 1 SoLS (can cost one less due to Mystic and has some crazy synergy with almost all the deck, including Crypt Rats) + 1 Umezawa's Jitte. It requires 2-3 more slots than 3 Collars but it gives you not only the same or even bigger number of virtual collars but also a way better versatility and topdecks quality (Mystic searching for SoLS is always a threat, that second Collar you just topdecked isn't).
The second addition probably doesn'y increase this deck's quality significantly but i personally love it. It's a Monstrous Carabid. Not only a cheap cycling giving us a good fatty off a Balthor, but also an insect.

Sisyphos
04-24-2010, 10:10 AM
@ B.C.: Did you manage to get in any testing with the last list you posted in the meantime? I'm just curious how the changes work out for you . I haven't tested the Cadaver Imp. He seems interesting though, a bit like a mini-Balthor. I'm also still skeptical about Basilisk Collar. I agree it's nuts with Crypt Rats but I missed the overall utility the other equipments had with all the other creatures in the deck. I have to admit though that I didn't get in many games with the Collar and I never tried your all-in approach of 4 Crypt / 3 Collar / 4 Street Wraith to maximize the chances of hitting the combo.

As for boarding, my graveyard hate has included a couple of Faerie Macabres for a while now. It's still unexpected as most opponents will name Crypt or Relic first with Pithing Needle and it's nearly as hard to dodge for graveyard dependent decks as Extirpate. And just like Street Wraith you get the whole recursion-benefit too. (Imp, Balthor, SoLS)

B.C.
04-26-2010, 08:22 PM
After some early testing, Cadaver Imp isn't too great. It is nice to recur a Shriekmaw now and then, but in general I think I would rather have 1-2 Recurring Nightmare. Also, Cadaver Imp doesn't work with Balthor. When he comes back into play after a Balthor, his ability does nothing. There's a better use of maindeck spots.

B.C.
04-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Double post. After thinking about it a little more. Balthor + Cadaver Imp isn't good, but Balthor + Cadaver Imp + Fleshbag Marauder is super awesome. Now I'm just trying to figure out what gets cut to make room for Fleshbags in the main. The best thing I can think of is Ravenous Rats, 'cause they have always kinda sucked. That kind of kills the CC2 spot, though. Maybe Street Wraith could go. Commencing testing...

marit
06-26-2010, 02:08 AM
Necroing, I would like to point out that Balthor+Imp+ Marauder is not a combo, because the Imp trigger fizzles since it has no initial target. I built the deck on MTGO cause it costed like 70 tics, and it crushes blue. That being said, I now have pretty much infinite testing, so I'm trying lots of variations of the deck. I tested imp extensively, and I'm not a fan. Recurring shrekmaw is nice, but thats the best case scenario, and worst case its a 1BB flyer, yawn. Plus the synergy with Balthor is kinda lame, as in nonexistent. Volrath's Stronghold is definitely a keeper though, there's no reason to not include it. Brings back Crypt Rats, Shriekmaw, and even can quasi Chittering lock them out. I'm still not sold on Maruader either, he's been pretty good, but the card neutrality kind of bothers me, I feel like I'm getting gypped. I dropeed the Street Wraiths, I didn't want to, but I ran out of room. Here's my current list:

16 Swamp
4 Swarmyard
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Chittering Rats
4 Crypt Rats
4 Balthor the Defiled
4 Shriekmaw
3 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Recurring Nightmare

If anyone could tell me how to use card tags I'll go back and edit. PS this deck kicks the crap out of New Horizons, Merfolk, Counterbalance, and Thresh. That's pretty good.

heroicraptor
06-26-2010, 02:33 AM
Card tags:
[ cards][ /cards]


I dunno, only one Reccuring Nightmare without search or draw seems slim when it's such a powerful engine.